Abigail Shrier’s Bad Therapy exposes how Gen Z’s skyrocketing mental health diagnoses—40% in therapy, 42% labeled with disorders—stem from overmedicalizing normal emotions, with schools pushing SEL programs that worsen anxiety by framing sadness as "depression" and minor conflicts as PTSD. She blames permissive parenting, expert-driven child-rearing, and discredited trauma theories like The Body Keeps the Score, arguing antidepressants and CBT are overused for mild cases while activities like physical labor build resilience. Research shows SEL programs backfire, increasing rumination, proving the system prioritizes pathologizing kids over fostering real coping skills. [Automatically generated summary]
Hey everyone, it's Andrew Clavin with this week's interview with Abigail Schreier.
Abigail Schreier is just an absolutely lovely person to look at her.
I mean, butter wouldn't melt in her mouth.
You'd be shocked at what a troublemaker she is.
She's an incredible, just everywhere she goes, she starts trouble.
She wrote a book, a terrific book called Irreversible Damage, the Transgender Craze, Seducing Our Daughters, telling about the terrible things that happen to children who go through this transgender transitioning, all of which now turns out to be true, as we know from the WPATH papers that have been released.
She has a new book out called Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up.
Now, this is one I take personally.
There used to be a headline, there was once a headline in The Onion, the satirical newspaper, that said the psychiatrist cures patient.
And I happen to be that guy.
I am the guy who was cured by psychiatry in my 20s when I went completely out of my mind.
Absolute crash.
And this guy miraculously not just brought me back, but turned me into the lovable and joyful person you see before you.
I have now read this book, however, and I'm going to let her off the hook.
Abigail, it's great to see you.
How are you doing?
I'm doing great.
It's great to see you too, Andrew.
Because I was expecting this book to be an anti-therapy screed, but it's really not.
I mean, you talk about you've been in therapy and you talk about the fact that it can do some good.
So maybe we could just start off with you giving me the thesis of the book.
Sure.
So the question, I always start a book with a question.
And my question was, why is the generation that received the most mental health treatment, 40% of them have been in therapy?
42% have a mental health diagnosis.
The numbers that have been on various psych meds we've never seen before.
They've had the most mindfulness and wellness techniques and anti-bullying measures in schools and feelings focus of any generation.
So they should be the picture of mental health.
Instead, they're the picture of despair.
So I wanted to know why were they so sad, right?
In any other treatment, in any other population where you increase treatment, you want to see point prevalence rates of the malady or the disorder going down.
But instead, with increased treatment, the point prevalence rates of things like anxiety and depression are skyrocketing.
So I wanted to know why.
And I also wanted to know why did these kids have no interest in growing up?
Why did they say they don't want to form families?
Why did they say they don't, larger numbers than we've ever seen are choosing to live with mom and dad, 18 to 25 year olds?
We've never seen this before.
So why?
What was it about these generations that was making them so unwell?
So it's kind of an, I mean, it's an interesting thought that maybe the therapy is not the solution.
It's the problem.
Now, you're very good.
I mean, this is a really interesting book because it's not, I kind of expected you to just take an axe to the thing, which by the way, I wouldn't have entirely minded.
I mean, in my youth, I was treated by a therapist of genius.
He's now recognized as a therapist of genius.
You know, that doesn't happen very often.
So I really do think, and there's no way of testing any of this thing.
But do you think, I guess is what I should ask, do you think the therapy is causing the problem?
I do.
But here's what I want to say, Andrew.
I believe that therapy can be not only useful, but life-saving.
But here's the difference.
It's life-saving when you start out with a person who actually has a problem, when they actually are suffering in any kind of severe way, right?
That psych drugs and therapy can be absolutely essential, even for children.
The problem is we are doing preventive mental health and treating a well population.
We are treating bummed out, worried kids.
And with them, they don't stand a benefit because they don't have mental illness.
They are not struggling in a severe way.
So now they only face risk.
And that's what we're giving them.
And the thing to remember is that all medical interventions, if they are efficacious, if they do anything at all, from x-rays to surgeries to Tylenol, any medical intervention that can help can also, by definition, harm.
And that's what we're seeing.
We're seeing the entire population, it's being over-treated, overdiagnosed, over-therapized.
So what does that look like?
I mean, if my kid is, you know, comes home and didn't like school or has a problem with a teacher or another kid, and I take him, her to a therapist, what does it look like that makes it worse?
Right.
So there are a few things.
First of all, they don't even need to be taken to a therapist.
They're getting this at school.
The kids are being flooded with therapy.
That's why they think they never say, I'm worried.
They say, I have anxiety.
They never say I'm sad.
They say I'm depressed.
Young people will tell you that they were picked ill in middle school and they have PTSD.
Now they don't have PTSD, but they are speaking the language of psychopathology to understand themselves.
Parents are referring to my ADHD kid.
We are completely pathologizing the entire generation.
So they think of themselves as unwell.
And how do they end up with this therapy?
Well, part of it, a lot of it is coming in from school.
But there's something else too.
And this is what I think you were getting at with that question.
And that is that when you take an adult to therapy, an adult, it's entirely different from a child going to therapy.
First of all, an adult makes a decision.
I want to work on this.
I need help.
I'm ready to do the hard work of therapy.
Bring it on.
And a child almost never says that.
He's been strong-armed by a parent.
So now the therapist has to kind of pander to get his buy or her buy-in.
And there's something else too.
A child and adolescent is not going to say to a therapist, listen, I hear what you're saying, but I don't think I would call my mom emotionally abusive.
They're not going to say, look, I was upset by that too, but I don't think it's fair to call my parents toxic.
So, and it's also not fair.
They're not going to say, listen, I was really sad when my dog died, but I'm not sure it was trauma.
A child doesn't know those things.
And that's the thing.
We know that therapy can make worries worse.
It can make anxiety worse, depression worse, feeling of inefficacy worse, and alienation from family worse.
And that's what we're seeing in the population.
So why?
Why are parents falling for this?
I mean, obviously, you look around.
You know, my daughter has kids.
She lives in a neighborhood with lots of kids.
You see what happens to other people.
Why do people fall for this?
Well, I guess there are two different groups.
So in the school systems, they have no choice.
They are the captive patient pool of social emotional learning and other mental health interventions.
And this is poor kids as well as rich kids.
Okay.
In public school, they are absolutely captive to this, where teachers and counselors are playing therapist.
But why do parents do it?
Well, I think a lot of parents in the older, you know, millennial and Gen X parents had good experiences in therapy.
And they thought of it as the educated, sophisticated thing to do.
If my child has a problem, I'm not going to send her to grandma.
I'm going to send her to an expert.
If she's a little worried, a little phobic, a little anxious, we need an expert.
That's the responsible thing to do.
And as we professionalize parenting, as we think of it as something that sophisticated people know how to do, as we read stacks of parenting books, we completely became convinced that we couldn't handle our kids' problems ourselves.
This is an interesting thing.
I mean, parents originally just were parents, right?
You just knew what you were supposed to do.
I never read a child-rearing book.
My wife did, so I could check with her.
I could say things about her while I was like, you know, chasing my kids with sticks and things like that.
But still, where did this, how did this grow up?
Is this just this spread of expertise in general seeping into parenting?
Or does it have anything to do with the fact that a lot of parents aren't home anymore and there's more divorce?
Does that play into this at all?
Absolutely.
It's all of the above.
So for various reasons, we became, we lost confidence as parents that we knew what we were doing.
And a lot of us had grown up with divorce.
A lot of us felt under sort of cared for emotionally.
And we thought, well, therapy is always good.
I mean, look at Goodwill Hunting.
Look at the sopranos.
We know that the only way to get past your pain is by talking it out with an expert.
Now, that's not true.
It's never been true.
And the research actually doesn't show that.
But what I want people to know, what I want parents to know is when you take your child to the school counselor or to the mental health expert, it's an entirely different ballgame because there the child really can't push back on a suggestion.
And I'll give you an example of the kind of harms that can be done.
Just a casual suggestion that you have PTSD, that you have an anxiety disorder will change a child's self-concept.
ADHD is not saying, hey, you're an undisciplined student.
You need to buckle down.
It's totally different.
It's telling a kid, you have a brain problem and only medication or a therapist can cure it.
It also means that it takes the responsibility off the parent.
I mean, I know I've seen numerous times when parents were doing obvious stuff wrong that they shouldn't have been doing, then sent their kid to get drugged or therapized instead of just saying, maybe I have to change my way.
So it actually takes the parent off the hook in some ways.
I think it does.
And I think we really had this neurotic sense that we didn't know what we were doing.
It's not true.
People have raised, you have to think about what your goal is.
What is the goal of parenting?
It's to raise a load-bearing wall, right?
Someone who can be relied on, someone who can be a good neighbor for others, show up for work on time, someone who has your values and is ready to support others in our society, whether that's, you know, building a family, being a spouse, all the things we want our children to be.
The problem, you know, the ridiculous thing is we've been doing that for generations, for thousands of years, in fact.
We've been raising remarkable people.
And no, we don't need neuroscience to do it, despite the suggestion of so many therapy, you know, parenting experts.
We don't need neuroscience.
And by the way, their neuroscience isn't very good because we don't know very much about the amygdala.
They throw it around, but the amount of neurotrash in their suggestions, they don't know what they're talking about because our knowledge of the brain is incredibly crude.
It's a very, very sophisticated, you know, instrument of the body.
And we really don't know very much about it.
And to make an entire parent population feel insecure because they don't know about the amygdala or the hippocampus is ridiculous.
And so that's why I wrote the book.
I really wrote the book so that parents would stop getting pushed around.
Now, there are two questions that leap into my mind when you say this.
The first, let's start with this first one.
You go after a book in there called The Body Keeps the Score, which I actually, I like the first half of that book kind of.
I mean, I thought it did say something interesting, which was that people who have been traumatized tend to repeat that trauma in their lives.
And I think we've all seen that.
We've seen the woman who's been abused by her father find an abusive husband or lover.
We've seen people who have been mistreated in some way mix that, confuse that mistreatment with love, basically.
So I thought he had something to say, but you actually, now, and the reason I bring this book up is it's become a spectacular bestseller.
I mean, it's a book that everybody turns to.
What is it exactly that you didn't like about his theory?
It is so mistaken.
It is so multiply mistaken.
And I interviewed really the top experts at Harvard Medical School and elsewhere to find that, to get to the bottom of it.
First of all, you have to look at the research and you have to separate what the claim is.
And these trauma gurus make a ton of headway by slipping between metaphor and science-ish suggestion.
Okay.
Now, is it true that a woman who's raised in a bad environment or is abused by her father may have to struggle to form adult relationships?
Of course, because of the way she's been socialized.
But that's not what they claim.
What they claim is that your body is imprinted with a permanent trauma that you can only work with a therapist to uncover.
It is just recovered memory by a different name.
And in fact, he was one of the chief architects of the recovered memory scandal.
Was he?
I did not know that.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He was one of the chief architects.
And that's why wonderful people like Rich McNally, Skip Pope of Harvard, Elizabeth Loftus at UC Irvine, I mean, all these wonderful Paul McHugh at Johns Hopkins, they came forward and just put a stop to the madness that had put so many people, you know, that had so many people arrested and put through the criminal justice system.
It's terrible.
Believing, right, believing that they had unearthed this hidden trauma.
And the idea that our bodies are imprinted with trauma that is held outside the central nervous system in the body mysteriously is untrue.
There's no basis to it.
But here's the most important thing to know.
It's damaging to children to tell them that.
And here's why.
Because actually, if you look at any of the studies, the story of humanity and the story of children, even who've been abused, is one of unbelievable resilience.
So to tell them they're likely to suffer for a lifetime because of this, it's a lie and it's only more likely to make it true.
We don't want to tell them that.
So in other words, what you're sort of saying here is that basically, one way or another, the entire medical, the entire psychological establishment is telling children that they're not just scared, they're not just nervous, they're not just being bullied or not fitting in.
They actually have a disease.
I mean, this is something I've noticed for a long time.
People don't just say, I'm depressed.
They say, I have depression as if there were no I.
It's like a disease that you get.
So this is an entire generation of children being brought up to think that they have a disease, essentially.
The Helix Sleep Solution00:04:18
Yes.
And there's great.
See, on the harms of therapy, there's actually an incredible biotech of research on the harms of therapy.
Now, again, if you have a problem, of course, go to the ER.
Expose yourself to the risk of MRSA.
You need it.
The question is, what do you do with the bummed out kid or the inattentive kid who doesn't necessarily need it?
Well, the first thing you do is you turn your life upside down to see if you can change the environment to stabilize the kid.
I don't want to say that no one should ever go to therapy.
Of course.
And I don't even want to say that no children should go.
What I want to say is we need to reset the default.
And the default should not be that we expose every kid to therapy, which is what we're doing in the public schools right now.
And the reason is giving a kid a diagnosis, I can say, oh, I feel depressed.
And you know that I'm half speaking in metaphor.
I don't really mean I have major depressive disorder.
But these kids, these young people are walking around with an anxiety diagnosis.
And they believe very much that they have a brain problem.
That's not an innocuous intervention.
That's not nothing.
And the harms of stigmatization and therapy and demoralization, those are really well documented.
really well documented.
People who get a mental health diagnosis have an altered perception of themselves.
So let's, the second question I wanted to ask you is about parenting.
You're talking about parenting.
What does good parenting look like?
Let's start with it generally.
What does good parenting look like that's not happening today?
Right.
So the best research, it was done by Diana Bomerind in the 1960s, and it's an incredibly sturdy research finding.
It's been replicated hundreds of times.
And what she found, she wanted to, she was curious about the ways people in America were raising kids.
And she found, she did these, you know, did the research, and she found that roughly it fell into three styles.
Authoritarian, which was cold and unloving, but rule-bound.
Obedience was the ultimate goal.
Authoritative, which was rule, insisted on rules.
Parents were the authority, but it was loving.
And permissive, where there weren't rules, where you were always asking kids what they wanted to do, and parents sort of let them do whatever it is they want.
Parents put themselves on the same level as kids.
And by far, the kids who had the best mental health in terms of anxiety, depression, kids who were happiest, most successful, and had the best relationship with mom and dad came from authoritative homes, loving and rule-based, which doesn't mean being cruel.
It just means, listen, talk to me, but I'm still going to ultimate, I still know what's best for you.
So, okay, so authoritative is the idea.
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Religion's Psychological Benefits00:14:12
K-L-A-B-A-N, there are no easy things.
We're talking to Abigail Schreier.
The book is Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up.
It's already a bestseller, right?
Congratulations.
I happen to know that you are a religious person.
And I haven't heard you talk about this in the interviews you've given.
And here's the reason I bring this up.
When I went into therapy, it was the typical kind of thing, it wasn't Freudian therapy, but it was that sort of thing.
And at first, it made me an atheist.
And then I started to think, you know, everything we've been talking about in therapy, all the insights are garbage.
But the thing that has healed me is the love that I have developed between this mentor and me.
We had a mentor-mentee relationship and that love.
And when I started thinking about that, that ultimately led me to God, which shocked the hell out of my therapist, by the way.
So how, you know, when you see somebody who is religious, who lives in a community that shares values and shares beliefs, there's something incredibly healthy and health-giving about that.
And that seems to be something that's kind of falling apart in the country.
How much do you think that plays into this problem that you're seeing, this over-reliance on therapy, which is essentially a secular enterprise?
Absolutely.
So it's an interesting question.
Here's what I found that the research shows.
And then I'll, you know, I'll explain.
You're right.
I don't bring up religion and I don't bring it up for a very important reason.
Religion provides a lot of the psychological, a lot of the sort of psychological benefits that we know kids need.
And by the way, feeling like you have community, people you love who love you back over time, not the coach the mom hired to watch you on Thursdays or, you know, preside, but I mean, cousins, family, community, people who really care if you show up, grandma and grandpa who give you all the wrong foods, but love you.
Those things are so important.
You know what else is important?
You know, they talk about gratitude.
Well, you don't need to teach gratitude if you have religion, right?
It's built in, right?
And that's, but also an outward focus, being part of something bigger than yourself, contributing to the welfare of the group.
All these are absolutely important.
By the way, teaching kids right from wrong and then trusting them to use their judgment in the world, letting them try things that are a little dangerous, like sharp knives or a walk home from school, but give them a sense of capacity.
I can do in this world.
That stuff's so important without mom monitoring.
But here's why I don't say, oh, religion's secure.
Because I find, first of all, you know, this is a psychological intervention.
All this therapy, all these psych meds, all this diagnosis this generation we're giving.
So I thought, well, let's just see if the psychological research even thinks it would be good.
But in fact, the psychological research by its own lights predicts that these children would have this problem based on all the needless therapy they're getting.
But there's something else too.
Religious people get so conned.
They get so conned.
They think, oh, social-emotional learning, that's got to be good.
It teaches emotional regulation.
And they let it right in the door.
Over and over.
Now, why do they get conned?
Because they want to be thought of as sophisticated.
They want to do something that promotes emotional regulation.
They don't think, wait a second, one of the huge benefits of therapy is that it's non-judgmental.
Do I want a non-judgmental adult listening to my child?
Do I want an adult who says, oh, so you're having sex at 14?
How does that make you feel?
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, we want adults who pass on our values with our children.
So I guess the book's an exploration of, is any of this even good according to the psychological research?
And the answer is no.
And something crazy happened after I wrote the book.
So I finished the book in October and two teams of researchers were wondering the same thing that I didn't know, one in Australia and one in England.
And what they wanted to know is, are the wellness techniques, the emotional regulation techniques, social emotional techniques, anti-bullying techniques we're doing in our schools, are they helping kids?
And they actually had a control group, two teams of research, separate studies.
And in both cases, the focus on feelings, the thinking about your pain, let's talk about your pain, both things made kids sadder, more anxious, and more alienated from their parents.
Because you, I mean, you point this out in the book.
People, you're always in pain.
You're always worried.
I mean, when, you know, overall, you have the sense of gratitude, things are going well.
But in any given moment, you're always thinking about what I'm doing and how am I going to maneuver this and how am I going to get everything done?
So you're always anxious.
That's right.
And if you focus a child on their feelings incessantly, they will be more dysregulated.
They're going to believe that their feelings are really important and a really trustworthy indicator of whether they're in the right.
Now, we know they're not, but you're actually working to dysregulate kids.
And here's what I want parents to know.
Just by asking kids to talk about emotional, let's say a lot of people think, oh, let's social emotional learning.
That's got to be good, right?
You're talking about your emotions.
It could be positive.
It could be negative.
Well, if you're asking kids, you know, tell a time you were, you know, when you were feeling joyful, there's nothing to teach.
So you have to go to the negative.
Talk about a time when you were hurt, disappointed, sad, rejected.
But then there's another question.
These are kids.
So whose job is it to keep them safe?
It naturally sets up a criticism of the parents.
That's completely inevitable.
And that's why kids who talk about wellness techniques with their teacher walk away more alienated from mom and dad.
So here's a subject I have to ask you about because it's an absolute bugbear with me.
It really bothers me.
I've been having this discussion with my wife for like 30 years.
These drugs, you know, I don't know what else to call them, you know, therapeutic drugs, antidepressants, things like this, anti-anxiety medicines.
I've never taken anything ever.
You know, I barely take an aspirin when I have a headache.
But I've seen people take them and they always say the same thing.
I feel much better now.
And I look in their eyes and they're dead.
They just are dead.
And one of the things I liked about the book, The Body Keeps the Score, is he rips them apart.
He rips that industry apart.
And that was my favorite section in the book where he just talks about the gains in respect and the gains in money that psychiatrists have gotten for dumping talk therapy and taking out drugs.
Where do you stand on this?
I mean, I understand that there are people who need drugs and I understand there are people who hurt by drugs, but it just seems to me that it is, they're just dealers at this point, a lot of them.
Yes, but so are the therapists.
Yeah.
So for instance, they may push that.
Oh, the drugs are terrible.
Well, let's look at the efficacy rates of their own psychotherapy.
Not impressive.
By the way, dancing does more for mild to moderate depression than drugs or psychotherapy.
See, they can play that game where they're like, look at that guy.
That's the real bad guy.
Well, let's look at the treatment results across therapies.
Not terribly impressive.
And think about how many people you know who will say things like, God, I'm flooded with these right now.
I've been in therapy 20 years and I'm just as depressed as I was.
You hear that all the time.
I know a lot of people like that.
Yeah.
Right?
So, you know, this shell game of it's not me, you know, where you play, where you say, don't blame me.
It's the anti, you know, look, there's no question.
Pediatricians are handing out antidepressants like they're Tic Tac.
Right.
Like their Tic Tacs.
I'm aware of that.
And I don't think it's a good thing.
You know, I think it's bad, as I discuss in the book.
But what people don't know is that actually sitting around with the therapist regularly rehearsing your bad memories, that's the primary symptom of depression.
Being in an endless loop of rumination over your bad feelings.
You know what's better for kids than sitting around and talking about their bad feelings?
Anything.
Going on a wall, painting the gym, picking up trash around the school.
You could give them any activity and it would do more for their mental health than sitting around with the school counselor.
What does it look like when your kid actually needs therapy?
So what it looks like is that the child cannot get stabilized without it.
Parents have tried different things in the environment.
A child is anorexic.
She's really losing weight.
A child is so phobic that it's absolutely interfering with daily life or so OCD, right?
There are these kids.
They need help.
I'm not against antidepressants and I'm not against therapy.
But those therapies tend to be very focused.
See, when you have a problem, it focuses the mind.
Everybody knows we got to put weight on this kid.
We've got to get her to give up this obsessive thought that she's fat when she's not.
It's an emergency, all hands on deck.
That is really important therapy.
But that's not what we're seeing.
Is there a kind of therapy that you think works?
That's better than others?
Yeah.
Well, cognitive behavioral therapy seems to be better for specific things, but here's the problem.
Everybody claims to be doing it.
Even people don't.
So every therapist says, I use the cognitive behavioral.
Let me tell you, it's really, it has real rigors to it, right?
They usually set out, and I interviewed some wonderful cognitive behavioral therapists.
They will set out, here's the number of sessions we're going to do.
We're going to measure if you're getting over this phobia.
We're going to make you do things that are hard, right?
You're going to, if you're afraid of germs, you're going to stick your hand in a toilet.
We're going to get you over this fear because right now it's keeping you from opening doors and shaking hands.
And we don't want you going through life with that.
Now, that's therapy.
Right.
You know?
But, but, but, but here's what, you know, when I wrote the last book, what I want people to know is I wrote a book about, you know, the transgender epidemic among teenage girls, teenage girls deciding they were transgender.
Almost every one of those girls had a therapist.
They had already had a therapist.
In fact, a therapist played a key part in their, or the school counselor, a key part in their revelation that they might be transgender.
And it wasn't a gender therapist.
It was a vanilla psychodynamic psychotherapist talking to the kid once a week about her anxiety.
So my only other question, since you tell some, I mean, one story you tell right at the start of the book is just walking in where you brought your kid in because he'd hurt himself and they started asking suicidal ideation.
Since it's everywhere, since it's in schools, it permeates the medical establishment.
What should parents do to fight back against that, to keep that from getting into their kids?
So we have a lot of problems in America, but what I want parents to know is this is the easiest one to fix.
This is the easiest one to fix.
We know what kids need.
It's very easy.
This solution doesn't cost any money.
It doesn't, you know, it doesn't cost anything.
You just have to take back control of your kid's life and welfare.
Stop deferring to the experts.
Okay.
So from everything, the first thing I did when I walked into that urgent care clinic with my son, who was doubled over in pain, I thought maybe he picked up, maybe it was appendicitis.
I didn't know, but it was a Sunday and the doctor was closed.
And they said, oh, we're about to administer before we let you go.
It turned out to be dehydration.
They said, we're going to administer our mental health survey.
We asked that parents leave the room.
And I got up to leave the room.
I want parents to know that.
I'm no perfect parent.
I got up to leave the room.
And then I sat, but I had already written the book.
So I sat back down and I said, excuse me, could I please see your document?
And it was issued by the National Institute of Mental Health.
And it was the standard protocol for kids aged 8 to 12.
And it starts by asking parents to leave the room.
Then it presents kids with an escalating series of questions about whether they might want to kill themselves.
Now, I did the research in the book because parents are gaslit.
Parents are always told, well, that, you know, parents think, well, that sounds terrible.
Isn't suicide a contagion?
But they don't really know the research.
And so it's very easy to push them around.
I wrote the book to put all the research in one place so that parents would have a document and say, no, that's not right.
Talking obsessively about suicide with kids who aren't already suicidal is going to cause a problem.
We're going to stop that now.
Abigail Schreier, the book is Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up, a bestseller.
And really, I read it.
I think it's really, really an interesting book and a very interesting thesis.
It's great to see you, Abigail.
And it's wonderful talking to you.
Thank you very much.
Likewise, great to see you, Andrew.
Thank you.
Really interesting stuff.
And I see it all around me.
So it's obviously true.
It's obviously a problem.
And it needs to be looked at because therapy is not for everyone, though occasionally it is needed.
You will need it if you don't come on Friday to hear the Andrew Clavin show or watch the Andrew Clavin show.
I'll be there because it's my show, but you should be There too.