#889: The Debate Of The Century, Part 2
In this installment, Dan and Jordan finish up their coverage of the debate that finally settled the question, once and for all, about whether January 6 was a false flag.
Jan. 15, 2024 - Knowledge Fight
04:00:00
Participants
| 
| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
|
unidentified
|
I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys, saying we are the bad guys. | |
| Knowledge fight. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Dan and Jordan, knowledge fight. | |
| I need, I need money. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Andy in Kansas. | |
| Andy in Kansas. | ||
| Stop it. | ||
| Andy in Kansas. | ||
| Andy in Kansas. | ||
| It's time to pray. | ||
| Andy in Kansas. | ||
| You're on the air. | ||
| Thanks for holding us. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Alex. | |
| I'm a first time caller. | ||
| I'm a huge fan. | ||
| I love your room. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Knowledge fight. | |
| Knowledgefight.com. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I love you. | |
| Hey, everybody! | ||
| Welcome back to Knowledge Fight. | ||
| I'm Dan. | ||
| I'm Jordan. | ||
| We're a couple dudes like to sit around, worship at the altar of Selene, and talk a little bit about Alex Jones. | ||
| Oh, indeed we are. | ||
| Dan. | ||
| Jordan! | ||
| What's up? | ||
| Quick question for you. | ||
| What do you have? | ||
| What's your bright spot today, buddy? | ||
| My bright spot, we spent a bit of time before the show talking about it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We did. | |
| But there's a new season of Traitors. | ||
| Fantastic. | ||
| And the Beantown Prince CT is up in there, and he's killing it. | ||
| I'm going to be honest with you. | ||
| I have no clue what's going on right now. | ||
| Everything lives up to the promise of what CT on this show could be. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| I'm excited for him to be confused continuously. | ||
| Non-stop. | ||
| It's going to be awesome. | ||
| It is the best. | ||
| It's just great. | ||
| But anyway, same as last time, we had a lot to get through, and I've got to cut this short, but I'm excited. | ||
| I enjoyed the beginning of that show, and I hope for good things for everybody involved. | ||
| Indeed. | ||
| And in their future endeavors. | ||
| And never enough to say about how great Alan Cummings is. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Just so good. | ||
| Damn it. | ||
| I said we don't have time. | ||
| I'm sorry! | ||
| But I noticed a change in overall wardrobe aesthetic. | ||
| It seemed like last season he was going with a lot of weird plaids. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| And there's been less of that so far this season. | ||
| There's been less tartan. | ||
| That is true. | ||
| Which I think is bold. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Wait. | |
| Yeah, he's great. | ||
| Alan Cummings is great. | ||
| She's great. | ||
| I'm a Fergus Stan. | ||
| Oh my god, so great. | ||
| Just his beard. | ||
| Watch it. | ||
| Amblin' into screen, I go, oh, look at you! | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Subtleties. | ||
| What's your bright spot? | ||
| My bright spot is I've scheduled another tattoo, my man! | ||
| Ooh, tat guy. | ||
| Yeah, it's been a while. | ||
| What are you getting? | ||
| I'm getting a band right around my right arm, filling in this last bit. | ||
| Oh, you're gonna finally get that barbed wire you've been talking about. | ||
| No. | ||
| Oh. | ||
| No, it's actually the four elements from Legend of Korra. | ||
| My wife drew a beautiful... | ||
| The whole thing. | ||
| Are those different elements than ours? | ||
| Well, earth, air, fire, and then TV. | ||
| Those are the four elements in real life, I believe. | ||
| It's the same. | ||
| No, I'm excited. | ||
| It's going to be fun. | ||
| Nice. | ||
| I got a whole session. | ||
| It's a little bit more expensive than I wanted, but... | ||
| That'll happen. | ||
| You know, you'd always rather pay more than less for a tattoo in my... | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| In my estimation. | ||
| Given that it's a permanent thing, it's kind of tough to be like, I'm going to go with a cut rate. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| We get a discount on this tat. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Well, I look forward to seeing how it turns out. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Congrats. | ||
| I'm excited. | ||
| I'm going to get a tattoo of Fergus on my chest. | ||
| That's a good one. | ||
| The beard underneath the beard. | ||
| My chest hair will be his beard. | ||
| Yes, that'll be great. | ||
| So, Jordan, today we have an episode to go over. | ||
| Let's do it. | ||
| Talking about the culmination and summation and participation in the rest of the debate that Alex had with the Krasenstein brothers, Destiny, Glenn Greenwald. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| Oh, Darren Beattie. | ||
| Very forgettable. | ||
| The hole in the universe that is Darren Beattie. | ||
| So we're going to go over the rest of that. | ||
| I'm going to talk about it, and I'll be honest, I have a little bit of a feeling of, oh my god, we're doing too much. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| Because we had the Jimmy Dore episodes, and those were pretty long, and then we had your interview with Ronson. | ||
| That was a tight hour ten, man. | ||
| No, that's true, but it adds up. | ||
| I kept that tight. | ||
| It adds up when the second part of the Jimmy Dore episode was two hours and forty minutes. | ||
| Sure, that's true. | ||
| And then our first part of the debate coverage was three and a half hours. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| It's a little bit much. | ||
| So I'm definitely going to say we're not going to have a Wednesday episode this week. | ||
| Yeah, that's definitely a good idea. | ||
| I'm considering skipping Friday even also just to give a little bit. | ||
| But then the Iowa caucus is on Monday as we're recording this on Sunday. | ||
| It's tomorrow. | ||
| So it feels like we maybe can't take that much time away. | ||
| Is there anything to say about the Iowa caucus though? | ||
| It hasn't happened yet. | ||
| She could go wild. | ||
| That's about all there is to say. | ||
| But she could go crazy. | ||
| Yeah, okay. | ||
| You heard from Laura Loomer, they're using a bio, the control of the weather. | ||
| Oh, that's right! | ||
| They're making it cold so people won't vote for Trump. | ||
| You got it. | ||
| That's actually a very brilliant thing. | ||
| See, we have important stuff like that to discuss. | ||
| Yeah, old people don't like the cold. | ||
| That's because their skin is wiggly. | ||
| That's how I know I'm old. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| I don't like the cold. | ||
| Don't like the cold! | ||
| So yeah, we'll probably do something about the Iowa caucus on Friday, but I don't know, game time decision if we punt that to Monday, just because we're doing way too fucking much. | ||
| It's a lot. | ||
| Oh, another point I wanted to make, a little correction from the first episode. | ||
| When I was talking about Destiny's early path towards this debating stuff, I brought up JonTron, because that was kind of like the debate that... | ||
| That turned him, that broke this kind of direction. | ||
| That was Carson's couch. | ||
| When I mentioned him, I said that he was on Game Grumps, the YouTube channel. | ||
| And people have corrected, and I didn't realize this because I don't know all the intricate details, but he wasn't on that channel at the time, and I shouldn't have associated the two of them, because apparently that channel is fine, and it shouldn't be characterized by this person who is kind of a dick. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Gotcha. | |
| So I unfairly kind of made it... | ||
| They seem like, you know, he was a central part of it while he was saying racist, xenophobic stuff. | ||
| They are extricable from each other. | ||
| Right, right. | ||
| I should have been clear about that, and that's my bad. | ||
| That's good. | ||
| So, let's get down to business on this, Jordan. | ||
| The rest of this is garbage. | ||
| But first, let's say hello to some new wonks. | ||
| That's great. | ||
| So first, I listened to 57,464 minutes of Knowledge Fight this year, and now I can kill God? | ||
| Thank you so much. | ||
| You're now a policy wonk. | ||
| I'm a policy wonk. | ||
| Thank you very much! | ||
| Is that Gore? | ||
| I believe we have to attack and dethrone him. | ||
| You're not going to give me credit for a Gore reference? | ||
| I actually don't know that reference. | ||
| Isn't that the guy from Thor who kills gods? | ||
| Gore? | ||
| Isn't that his name? | ||
| Gore the God Killer? | ||
| Isn't that his name? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I thought it was. | ||
| Wait, his name was Gore? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| It rhymes with Gore? | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| Next, Jess, Dryden is a hellscape and we should get out. | ||
| Thank you so much for now, Policy Wonk. | ||
| I'm a policy wonk. | ||
| Thank you very much! | ||
| Next, All Hail Bazazian. | ||
| Thank you so much. | ||
| You're now a policy wonk. | ||
| I'm a policy wonk. | ||
| Thank you very much! | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you. | |
| Next, Austin Brill. | ||
| Thank you so much. | ||
| You're now a policy wonk. | ||
| I'm a policy wonk. | ||
| Thank you very much! | ||
| And Ian Nelson. | ||
| Merry Christmas! | ||
| Thank you so much. | ||
| You're now a policy wonk. | ||
| I'm a policy wonk. | ||
| Thank you very much. | ||
| And we got a technocrat in the mix, Jordan. | ||
| So thank you so much to Wonks Unite. | ||
| Go vote for my dad, Terry Sportsman, for the Green Bay Packers Fan Hall of Fame. | ||
| You can vote once a day until January 31st. | ||
| Help me get him inducted. | ||
| Just search Packers Fan Hall of Fame in Google. | ||
| Thank you so much. | ||
| You are now a technocrat. | ||
| I'm a policy wonk. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Go home to your mother and tell her you're brilliant. | |
| Someone sodomite sent me a bucket of poop. | ||
| Daddy Shark. | ||
| Jar Jar Binks has a Caribbean black accent. | ||
|
unidentified
|
He's a loser little titty baby. | |
| I don't want to hate black people. | ||
| I renounce Jesus Christ. | ||
| Thank you so much. | ||
| Thank you very much. | ||
| Pulling for your dad. | ||
| I think that's a fake name. | ||
| Jerry Sportsman. | ||
| Here's what I saw. | ||
| I read the email and I was like... | ||
| I will get anyone's dad into any Hall of Fame, if at all possible. | ||
| I can't vote because Green Bay. | ||
| Chicago, it's legally against the law for me to vote for anything in Green Bay. | ||
| I have a little update. | ||
| I looked it up, and you're a fucking asshole, because Gore the God Butcher is the name of the character. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Nice! | |
| I wasn't, I didn't know that was the name! | ||
| I one-upped you on a nerd thing. | ||
| You win! | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah, I win, yeah, yeah, yeah, you win. | ||
| So, we got a little out of context drop to begin us here, because I thought this was delightful. | ||
| Glenn, you're a well-respected journalist. | ||
| You look at people around the world. | ||
| Ooh, got his ass. | ||
| That was pretty snippy. | ||
| Yeah, that's fair. | ||
| That's fair. | ||
| Good work. | ||
| So, we start things off here, and it's about where we left off. | ||
| And they're talking a little bit about media censorship, and that being the real way you steal an election. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And part of this is because they all want to pretend that they didn't. | ||
| Like, get into Dominion voting machine conspiracies? | ||
| Sure, sure, sure, sure. | ||
| Because all of that looks bad and Fox News got sued and all that. | ||
| And the people who are pushing those conspiracy theories have had to recant in court. | ||
| They're like, oh yeah, we were just fucking around. | ||
| Let's just pretend that that didn't happen. | ||
| We'll forget about it and everybody moves forward. | ||
| We'll move into another thing that we're actually... | ||
| That's the real issue that we're talking about. | ||
| That's the real thing. | ||
| Until next time, whatever. | ||
| The more meaningful type of interference is the censorship is... | ||
| All of the other tools that have been deployed in order to rig the election. | ||
| I think that's more significant than the sort of more hyperbolic claims regarding hacking the machines and so forth. | ||
| The claims that Trump was rigging. | ||
| These kinds of things. | ||
| So then you agree that Trump was wrong when he said it was a stolen election? | ||
| Well, it depends what specific claim he's using. | ||
| It's a definitional thing. | ||
| Let's say when Trump kept pushing that Dominion, that Dominion was switching votes and it calls him Georgia. | ||
| That I don't believe in the Dominion stuff. | ||
| Yeah, I don't either. | ||
| It was a lie. | ||
| Trump was lying about it. | ||
| Trump was lying about it. | ||
| He was lying. | ||
| But see, we're intellectually honest here. | ||
| The point is that the State Department runs around the world looking at everybody else's elections, and the number one thing you get sanctions for is taking a candidate off the ballot. | ||
| And that's what Democrats are doing right now, and America sees that. | ||
| The Democrats are not doing it. | ||
| That's going to go to the courts. | ||
| It's not the Democrats' Supreme Court of Colorado. | ||
| It's not the Democrats' Secretary of State in Maine. | ||
| You just said the Democrats aren't doing it! | ||
|
unidentified
|
Alex, in Colorado. | |
| Alex, in Colorado. | ||
| Alex, in Colorado, who filed the suit? | ||
| Six people. | ||
| How many of them were Democrats? | ||
| No, no. | ||
| How many were Democrats out of the six? | ||
| No, how many? | ||
| How many were Republicans who filed the suit? | ||
| Five of the six people that filed the suit in Colorado to get Trump off the ballot were Republicans. | ||
| So stop saying Democrats. | ||
| Democrats don't want Trump off the ballot. | ||
| Glenn's actually responding. | ||
| Horseshit. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| Okay. | ||
| So yeah, we start off a little more action-packed than where we began last time, because Alex is already pretty drunk. | ||
| I'm pretty excited about that. | ||
| He disappears a few times, and he's clearly drinking more and smoking cigarettes. | ||
| I assume it's on camera. | ||
| What? | ||
| The debate itself? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| I mean, they don't follow him when he leaves to go drink. | ||
| That would be so good. | ||
| That would be nice if there was like a body cam. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| Like a WWE thing, like they followed him right behind you. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| That'd be great. | ||
| So Alex has claimed repeatedly on air that he has evidence and it's been proven that Dominion voting machines are part of the stealing of the 2020 election. | ||
| For him to pretend otherwise because it's inconvenient in this debate and it might get him sued is really pathetic. | ||
| Stick to your guns, young man. | ||
| So Darren's stance is interesting because I haven't listened to thousands of hours of him talk, so I don't know all the stupid shit that he's said over the years. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What I can do, though, is I can go over the articles that he's aggregated on Revolver News and see what kind of a message they sent. | |
| So we've got a headline here, written by white nationalist Patrick Howley from National File, a website that Alex secretly owns, that says, quote, Exclusive! | ||
| Government agency believes Dominion uses cellular modems experts say could wreak havoc on an election. | ||
| Seems to be maybe implying those machines were involved in the SEAL. | ||
| It could happen. | ||
| Well, here's an article from Zero Hedge, the funders of the debate we're listening to, that was put on Revolver News. | ||
| Quote, Dominion whistleblower testifies on complete fraud at Detroit Voting Center. | ||
| Huh, that's weird. | ||
| Here's an interesting article from a site called Creative Destruction Media, which is just a blog editorial with the headline, quote, Obama and Pelosi didn't win elections in the last decade. | ||
| It was Dominion. | ||
| It really seems like a sentiment Darren wouldn't be supporting. | ||
| Here he is, linking to an obscure blog making that claim. | ||
| That's strange. | ||
| We're doing it for money! | ||
| Oh, shit, I should have said we believe it. | ||
| Here's another one. | ||
| Quote, exclusive, breaking news, both of those exclamation points. | ||
| Report backs allegations of fraud against Dominion voting systems. | ||
| Or, quote, Kraken release. | ||
| Powell files Georgia lawsuit over voter fraud. | ||
| Dominion, only 12,000 votes needed to overturn elections. | ||
| Man, it seems like Darren's website was pushing quite a bit of this stuff that he doesn't believe is true at all. | ||
| That's strange. | ||
| Has everybody noticed yet that the people who are designated as Krakens are usually bad? | ||
| Well, I mean, it's a monster that was used as a weapon, right? | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| I'm just saying, like, maybe that should be an easy signal for us. | ||
| If their nickname is The Kraken, we just go, ha ha, caught ya, no. | ||
| Was The Kraken also, I believe it was an antagonist. | ||
| Like, it wasn't used by the hero of that story. | ||
| Not a good guy. | ||
| No. | ||
| Evil Kraken. | ||
| Evil weapon beast. | ||
| Giant evil weapon beast, yes. | ||
| So, Ian wants to get things a little bit on track. | ||
| And so, there's a question, and everything just falls the fuck apart. | ||
| He called it Happy Entrapment Day. | ||
| Talking about January 6th. | ||
| You guys think that it was an entrapment? | ||
| Let's talk about Trump saying that. | ||
| 100%. | ||
| 100%. | ||
| Donald Trump entrapped all those poor people to be there. | ||
| Yeah, that's true. | ||
| They probably thought he'd bail them out. | ||
| That's why I told them to be peaceful. | ||
| We want a 10-day investigation. | ||
| That's why I said be peaceful. | ||
| Because Trump was always calling for supporters. | ||
| He also called for them to fight like hell. | ||
| Fight like hell means for our freedom and our vote in our country. | ||
| Okay, and... | ||
| People can say things that they don't mean in order to... | ||
| Hey, when you go to a high school football game at a pep rally, and then the cheerleaders go, fight, fight, fight, fight! | ||
| Trial by combat? | ||
| That doesn't mean anything either? | ||
| That's a legal term. | ||
| I think the thing that's most instructive to see what Donald Trump wanted to happen that day is that when he sat down and he watched the violence unfolding on TV, when he saw the people fighting with cops, when he got notification that Ashley Babbitt had been shot, Donald Trump did not take steps to stop the violence that day. | ||
| Instead, him and Giuliani made phone calls to senators and congressmen trying to get them to stall the vote. | ||
| What do you guys think ethically about people in politics telling people to go fight? | ||
| Do you find it to be misleading? | ||
| Look, we're not a neutered population. | ||
| I mean, I have Democrats, during the impeachment for this, they shut it down when finally Trump put a five-minute video on of Democrats saying, attack him at grocery stores, attack him at gang stations, attack! | ||
| We need civil insurrection. | ||
| What do we think about the term battleground state? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You know, it's... | ||
| This is typical political rhetoric. | ||
| No, it's the context. | ||
| Nobody is upset because Donald Trump said fight like hell. | ||
| People are upset because for months or years, really even in 2016, Donald Trump has consistently attacked and undermined the electoral process with absolutely no good reason. | ||
| No, it's the Democrats that he was a Russian agent. | ||
| The Democrats falsely said he was a Russian agent and sicked the deep state on him for the four years of his administration. | ||
| Is there any evidence Trump's a Russian agent? | ||
| No, but that's why he wasn't convicted or charged with any crimes for it. | ||
| No, but they were the ones saying that the American voters were manipulated by the Russians. | ||
| They were the ones saying... | ||
| Alex, was he charged with a crime for that? | ||
| Was he charged with a crime for that? | ||
| They tried. | ||
| They tried. | ||
| Wait, but the Congress reports, why didn't they just charge him falsely? | ||
| They have a charge for insurrection. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Wait, wait, wait. | |
| Hillary is currently saying Trump is going to steal the election. | ||
| Why didn't he get an indictment? | ||
| Is Hillary saying Trump's going to steal the election? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Why is Hillary saying Trump's going to steal the election? | |
| Guys, guys, guys. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Why is Hillary saying Trump's going to steal the election? | |
| Keep going. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I want this to last forever. | |
| Well, he won't stop. | ||
| I will dominate. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Guys, what we need to do is listen to me for a moment. | |
| We are. | ||
| That we don't speak over each other. | ||
| What we do is we listen to each other, take turns. | ||
| It becomes way better. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| Is it okay that Hillary is on TV this week three times I saw saying Trump's going to steal the election? | ||
| Why is she allowed to? | ||
| That's true. | ||
| So that clip is really interesting because you can kind of see how Alex's brain works. | ||
| The clip starts with Ian introducing the question of if J6 was entrapment. | ||
| Obviously, it's Alex's job to say that it was, and that the globalists did it to make Trump and his supporters look bad so they couldn't get their very cool and reasonable demand of an imaginary 10-day investigation that Alex insists is in the Constitution. | ||
| Incidentally, that's not true. | ||
| Ted Cruz is arguing that there should be a 10-day investigation, which was based on what happened in the 1876 election between Rutherford B. Hayes and Samuel Tilden. | ||
| In that case, three states had sent dueling sets of electors for certification, whereas with Trump, no state actually sent two slates. | ||
| Trump and his allies tried to get and send fraudulent slates of electors to the states, or from the states, but they hadn't been approved. | ||
| So the circumstances are completely different, and there's zero reason to think that Trump was entitled to some sort of 10-day investigation. | ||
| There already been plenty of investigation. | ||
| He just didn't like the results. | ||
| So Destiny introduces the idea that it was Trump that entrapped the followers who thought he would have their backs if they got arrested. | ||
| Alex pushed back on that by saying that Trump told them to be peaceful. | ||
| The fight like hell line is evoked, and Alex says the people can use fight in non-violent context. | ||
| Sure. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Up to this, he's a little slurry, Yeah. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| So Destiny brings up the fact that Trump did nothing to stop the violence, and this indicates his position more than whatever words he's using, like his inaction. | ||
| Actions are in order than words. | ||
| And almost as if he exists as a defensive crutch for Alex, Ian comes in as the moderator to ask a totally new question, and what they think of politicians saying that people should fight. | ||
| This allows Alex to again restate his normal position that fight can be set in a non-violent context, so in effect what Ian has achieved is to undo the point that Destiny made. | ||
| Alex can reset to the point before something came up that he couldn't really handle. | ||
| Beattie comes in and gets a little pedantic by asking about what about battleground states, to which Destiny explains that the context around words matters more, and that the problem is that Trump had been fraudulently attacking the electoral system the entire time he'd been running since 2016. | ||
| To rebut that, Alex says it was the Dems who were attacking the electoral system, who were, they were the deep state, who undermined Trump by calling him a Russian agent. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Destiny brings up multiple points in response to this that Alex just ignores. | ||
| That the supposed deep state is all people Trump appointed, or that Trump was never charged or convicted with being a Russian agent. | ||
| He asks Alex... | ||
| They tried. | ||
| Yep, sorry. | ||
| He asks if Trump was ever charged, and Alex says they tried to charge him. | ||
| Now you're not going to do it? | ||
| That brings up the next obvious point, which is if the system is so corrupt and the courts are hijacked entirely, then why would they ever fail to charge him? | ||
| Right. | ||
| All the while, Alex is trying to yell about what he wants to talk about, which is Hillary's been saying all this shit, and it's a complete non-issue. | ||
| In order to get back to that subject he wants to talk about, he has to constantly swat down the things Destiny is bringing up to try to keep the line of inquiry moving. | ||
| Like, Destiny's trying to stay on track somewhat. | ||
| So why would they fail to charge him if the system is so corrupt? | ||
| Alex's answer is that they didn't charge Trump with insurrection. | ||
| That seems like a response, but it isn't. | ||
| No, that's not even close to a response. | ||
| Destiny tries to repose the question because it wasn't answered, and Alex just keeps yelling, why is Hillary saying Trump's supposed to steal the election? | ||
| Yeah, and then they got into a nice little call-in response thing. | ||
| It was fun. | ||
| He is risen. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| He is risen indeed. | ||
| There you go. | ||
| It's very clear, if you're paying attention, that this is Alex, like, it's veering off into non-sequiturs and bullying, but when the moderator steps in to say that they need to not talk over each other, Alex plays the victim and says that Destiny can... | ||
| talking over him and he's just going to dominate him. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
This is very revealing because it shows what Alex thinks dominating is. | |
| For him, conversation is a form of violence. | ||
| If Destiny's making a point he doesn't like, he isn't going to let him finish and then address it. | ||
| No. | ||
|
unidentified
|
He's going to beat the shit out of him by yelling and make sure no one ever gets a point across and nothing gets fully articulated For a moderator to not understand that this is the game Alex is playing and for them to actively facilitate his... | |
| it, it shows that this is not and was never meant to be a sincere debate. | ||
| This is clickbait bullshit, featuring a coked-out idiot bullying Essentially, Alex is dominating in his definition of the word because he's stacked the deck. | ||
| He's good friends with the people who run Zero Hedge, who's funding this debate. | ||
| It's being held in his studio. | ||
| Two of his opponents are the Krasenstein brothers. | ||
| The moderator is Tim Pool's stupidest co-host. | ||
| If these pieces weren't there, Alex's bullying would be disrupted. | ||
| If the moderator was competent, unbiased as a person, there would be there to keep things on track. | ||
| Alex, in that circumstance, would have been silenced and maybe kicked off the panel by this point. | ||
| Yeah, absolutely. | ||
| Because, again, you can't do the thing that we're doing. | ||
| His behavior is out of line unless all you want is sensational fireworks. | ||
| If this was being funded by anyone other than Zero Hedge, he probably would have been kicked off for clearly being high at some point. | ||
| Well, there's that. | ||
| If this wasn't being held in his studio, the people running everything wouldn't be people on his payroll and maybe would mute his mic. | ||
| They could just mute his mic. | ||
| Alex would never do a debate like this without those conditions being met because he doesn't like to debate. | ||
| He likes to look like he's dominating. | ||
| And he can't do that if anyone with the authority is there to reel him in. | ||
| Unless he can stack the deck, he can't dominate. | ||
| He can only dominate in these circumstances, and that's why he'll only really exist within those circumstances. | ||
| When you're a person who exists as your own boss, then you really can't go back. | ||
| And the idea of restraints... | ||
| Inside of this kind of scenario is just, you can't do it. | ||
| You can't do it. | ||
| I mean, there's a part of it where you're getting one of those questions from the Krasensteins or whatever, and you have to just go, I'm wrong. | ||
| You know, and then, what do you do then? | ||
| You'd hope. | ||
| You'd hope that that would be a response. | ||
| Like, yeah, you know what? | ||
| Well, I mean, actually, to be fair, Alex is trying to do that with Trump, with all the lies, being like, well, he was wrong. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Oh, he said that the Dominion voting machines, he was lying about that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| And he was wrong. | ||
| So instead of, like, actually owning up and discussing the reality of that, he's using the idea of being wrong as an enabling excuse. | ||
| Sure, sure. | ||
| I mean... | ||
| I mean, specifically in the context of the debate, you eventually have to concede on, if you're going to have an honest debate, which we can't do, but if you're going to have these positions in competition with each other, you know, devoid of the people involved, eventually on one side you have to go, this is a factual inaccuracy. | ||
| And then, if you have to admit that one factual inaccuracy exists, that... | ||
| Spirals out of control until we go, oh, the debate is over. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| Well, and I think that that highlights one of the problems, which is, like, the entire premise of the debate is ridiculous. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| It's a factual inaccuracy. | ||
| Well, at very least, the people who have the burden of proof, which is saying that it was a manufactured event January 6th, have absolutely no evidence of that. | ||
| None! | ||
| Not even a little bit! | ||
| And have not even considered trying to bring any. | ||
| And... | ||
| The people who are saying that it wasn't are well prepared to deal with any of the things that might come up in the course of the feeling and opinion based arguments that'll happen. | ||
| And so it's debating a factual... | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But not in terms of facts. | ||
| But that's why it goes off into all these fucking side shits and no one defines any terms to use as a guide for like, this is what we mean by this. | ||
| There's no structure to the conversation because why would there be? | ||
| If you do, this is over in 10 minutes. | ||
| Yeah, absolutely. | ||
| We don't need to be here. | ||
| Nope. | ||
| Their fundamental position when they walked into the room was, we are lying. | ||
| It's ironic because... | ||
| Because we are so deep into our conversation about this, but this is a waste of time. | ||
| So are we. | ||
| We are five hours into this, wasting everybody's time. | ||
| So the conversation comes to the point of asking, wait a second, so why didn't they steal the 2016 election? | ||
| Good question. | ||
| And Alex has his talking point for that. | ||
| Let's hear it. | ||
| Did Hillary Clinton try to force Joe Biden in 2016 to certify the electoral votes? | ||
| The landslide was so big. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Facts. | ||
| Wait, hold on. | ||
| What do you mean the landslide was so big? | ||
| Hillary won the popular vote. | ||
| And Biden won by more. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| The landslide. | ||
| The narrative collapsed right before our eyes. | ||
| So Trump didn't win the 2016 election. | ||
| What? | ||
| Trump didn't win. | ||
| No, which one? | ||
| 2016. | ||
| He didn't win the popular vote. | ||
| With Russian help, right? | ||
| He didn't win the popular vote. | ||
| From the evidence I've seen, he had a huge landslide. | ||
| They tried to steal it with illegal alien voters, but it's still Trump is so big. | ||
| We're not all privy to the election that exists in your head. | ||
| The voices that talk to you don't give us the same type of intervention. | ||
| The rest of us on earth don't get information. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You're being down from the mothership. | |
| We've got to go by what people in reality say. | ||
| I'm so sorry. | ||
| Here we go. | ||
| People know you're wrong. | ||
| The states with the illegals are getting more. | ||
| California just got six more congressional seniors. | ||
| We need you to come up and rise up. | ||
| There it is. | ||
| I'm tied down. | ||
| There's no invasion. | ||
| There's no border. | ||
| Do you guys think that there was federal involvement here? | ||
| There was. | ||
| What the extent of it was? | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So you're getting to, I guess, an illuminating question, which is great. | ||
| I mean, okay. | ||
| I'm glad we're onto a new subject. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Did the feds do it? | ||
| Right. | ||
| No. | ||
| What evidence do you have? | ||
| None. | ||
| So Alex isn't used to saying these kinds of things about the election being stolen in front of people who aren't involved in the same scam as him, so he's unaccustomed to the response that you just saw there. | ||
| He can't back up this stuff about 2016, but more to the point, his explanation doesn't even make sense. | ||
| Even if there was a big landslide victory for Trump that year, why couldn't Hillary try the same plot? | ||
| Trump tried to send fake slates of electors. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Because then it would look like the landslide wasn't as big. | |
| This explanation, it's one that only works when you're just trying to patch up plot holes to make sure that people who've bought into your shit don't get stuck on something that doesn't make sense. | ||
| It's a band-aid type of explanation that's not meant to be examined because when you examine it or you try to sell it to someone who doesn't already agree with your underlying narrative, it sounds really stupid. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And all Alex can do to deal with this is to pivot about yelling about undocumented immigrants voting. | ||
| He's spiraling so hard, he comes up with this. | ||
| People know you're wrong. | ||
| The states with the illegals are getting more. | ||
| California just got six more congressional senators. | ||
| And San Diego, you need to get the illegals. | ||
| So that's not true at all. | ||
| After the 2020 census, for the first time in the 171 years that it's been a state, California lost a congressional district. | ||
| It's projected that if current trends continue, including undocumented immigrant populations, California is expected to lose four districts after the 2030 census. | ||
| Alex is a liar, and unless there's a competent moderator in the I think I might know what Alex is talking about here. | ||
| So in the 2018 midterm elections, Democrats in California flipped six House seats. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| I was able to find a headline from the California report that says, quote, are being brought in to raise populations to give blue states more house seats, which is what he's saying in that clip. | ||
| The most likely thing that happened here is that Alex skimmed that headline, or one like it, and his brain immediately filtered the words through his racist conspiracy theory filter, and that's what became reality to him. | ||
| So when they flip six seats, and the headline says Democrats six new house seats, he imagines it. | ||
| It's like, oh my god. | ||
| They just added six more. | ||
| It's nonsense. | ||
| And there's no competent moderation. | ||
| I would push back on this and be like, what are you talking about? | ||
| I do appreciate that there is an etymology that you look for for his bullshit, too. | ||
| Not just, where is this bullshit, but where does his mind spring forth the bullshit from? | ||
| It's so wrong. | ||
| It's so wrong, but you're right. | ||
| You're so right. | ||
| Six new house seats. | ||
| Only reading headlines. | ||
| Alex saw that, went boom, done. | ||
| It's so wrong, and it's a specific. | ||
| And so when you try to find that specific, it's like, where do, like, does this number, the house, seats? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Like, where do those things exist? | ||
| And the most likely scenario is that. | ||
| So funny. | ||
| It's, well, I mean, I get bored, so I gotta dig a little. | ||
| I understand, but it is, it's just... | ||
| It is so funny to look back and just be like, ah, see, this headline said six new seats and so spiraled into madness. | ||
| And now six years later, Alex is repeating a fucking racist talking point on this debate because of it. | ||
| Here we are. | ||
| It's like someone stepped on a butterfly. | ||
| So much that, yeah. | ||
| So, Crass, oh, I'm sorry, bed. | ||
| People really enjoyed that. | ||
| Who doesn't? | ||
| Shout out to everybody who enjoys bed. | ||
| But also, I think some people were saying it should be bread. | ||
| But I've already committed to bed. | ||
| Yeah, you can't do bread. | ||
| So, bed, I will say, probably well. | ||
| I think it's a good thing to do in this debate, is to just go ahead and admit... | ||
| No, they were there. | ||
| No, they were there. | ||
| Do you guys think that there was federal involvement here, or if there was, what the extent of it was on January 6th? | ||
| I think there were probably federal agents undercover. | ||
| Do I think that federal agents committed crimes and led people into the Capitol building? | ||
| Absolutely not. | ||
| And there hasn't been any case brought by any of these 700 convicts. | ||
| None of them brought that up in court. | ||
| Because they're being prosecuted in the District of Columbia. | ||
| Because there's no evidence of it. | ||
| Absolutely no evidence of it. | ||
| They won't let them put defenses on. | ||
| Let me tell you something. | ||
| They said Ray Epps was a hero and did nothing wrong. | ||
| Now they finally indicted him because they know it's a weak spot and their operation are only asking for six months. | ||
| Let me tell you. | ||
| We're not playing clips for tip for tat here, but everybody's gonna, I want everybody on X to get these statements and put all the clips of women putting onions in their eyes and the cops fake arresting people and high-fiving and saying, I'm a federal agent, I just helped run the attack. | ||
| They're gonna string all these videos out. | ||
| So here's the thing. | ||
| Like Brian said, there's probably some informants on the ground. | ||
| I think one of the Proud Boys, one of the ladies in the Proud Boys was an informant. | ||
| So she was on the ground. | ||
| She didn't go into the Capitol building, I don't believe. | ||
| The problem is with what Alex does is he pushes these conspiracy theories, these ideas that illegal aliens were voting. | ||
| There's no evidence of that. | ||
| I think the illegal alien voting thing is what's happening is they're coming in and then they're being counted in the census, which then adds more electoral votes. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| It gives more congressional districts. | ||
| That's fair. | ||
| That might be happening. | ||
| I haven't researched that. | ||
| They're indictments all over the country. | ||
| They're not voting. | ||
| They're indictments of illegals everywhere voting. | ||
| Got them again. | ||
| Hit them hard. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hit them hard. | |
| Got them again. | ||
| Like two people? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Maybe five? | |
| A bunch of cities have passed laws where illegal aliens can vote. | ||
| No, they haven't. | ||
| Not in a federal election. | ||
| Oh, the illegals are voting in elections? | ||
| Not in the federal ones. | ||
| I know that some cities try to have them voting in local matters. | ||
| I don't know how many of those are successful. | ||
| Illegal aliens shouldn't be voting, okay? | ||
| But they're not. | ||
| They're not voting in federal elections. | ||
| I don't know why you would care. | ||
| That's a conspiracy theory, Alex. | ||
| There are going to be 100 million views of you guys. | ||
| X is going to eat you guys alive. | ||
| I'm glad. | ||
| I can't wait for it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, man. | |
| Throughout this debate, Alex will not stop ruminating on future Twitter dunks on the Krasensteins and Destiny, but you notice that he can't do any of that dunking himself. | ||
| No. | ||
| He has the vibe of someone who's picking a fight and then stopping right before the punching starts, insisting that the other person's going to be real sorry when their big, muscly, imaginary friend shows up later. | ||
| It's pathetic, and a very strong indication that Alex can't handle arguing any of the points he's yelling very passionately about and shouldn't be in this debate. | ||
| There's nothing to offer. | ||
| Nope. | ||
| Except the bombast and spectacle. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Destiny is right there about the non-citizen immigrant voting in local elections, but I do wish he had some more of the details about that at the ready, because you could push back on this a little bit more strongly and demonstrate how wrong Alex is. | ||
| It would be good to see Alex try to defend not letting permanent residents be allowed to vote for the school board in the district where their child goes to school. | ||
| I'm sure he would just say, Twitter's gonna get ya, and move on, because that seems to be where he's at at the moment. | ||
| An important point that no one's picking up on in that clip is when Alex says that he knows the lawyers who aren't being allowed to put on defenses that would prove that there's all these federal agents provocateur. | ||
| He's talking about his own law. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Interest alone should make someone with the supposed credibility of Glenn Greenwald decline this invitation, but oh well. | ||
| Alex says this is going to get 100 million views on Twitter, so you can't turn down that kind of attention. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Nope. | |
| Incidentally, this entire debate is posted on YouTube on Destiny's channel, which had about 850,000 views at the time of when I was preparing this episode. | ||
| Gotcha. | ||
| Zero Hedge posted it on their YouTube channel and it currently sits at 4,000 views. | ||
| Their Rumble channel is a little more popular and that just got about... | ||
| 45,000 views there. | ||
| Alex's broadcast of this on Twitter has a total of about 1 million views. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Live and after the fact. | ||
| I think we're well below the 100 million estimate Alex is throwing around. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Eh. | |
| Hope it was worth it for folks. | ||
| I don't... | ||
| Hope they got paid. | ||
| And I have a strong sense that they got paid. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Which we'll get to at the end of this. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| I doubt... | ||
| I don't blame Destiny for not knowing enough about... | ||
| It's a bit outside the scope of what you would be preparing. | ||
| If you're preparing for a debate about whether or not January 6th happened, you shouldn't be like, I gotta make sure that I know my do-illegal-aliens-vote shit. | ||
| No, that's nuts. | ||
| Yeah, it's understandable. | ||
| He has enough of an awareness based on probably other conversations he's had around topics, including immigration and stuff. | ||
| But yeah, it would... | ||
| It would be nice, but I understand why he doesn't have that information at the ready. | ||
| Yeah, no problems there. | ||
| It's a missed opportunity, but not a slight. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So Alex claims that he never thought that Mike Pence could determine the election, which is crazy. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Wow. | |
| I don't know why you care about illegals voting when you think Trump can just flip the whole election anyway. | ||
| Who cares? | ||
| He can just ask Pence to throw it all out. | ||
| I never said I thought Trump could flip the election. | ||
| Do you think he was okay when he asked Pence to do it? | ||
| I already told you five times. | ||
| I think that was a bad theory. | ||
| I didn't say it was a bad theory. | ||
| Do you think it was allowed? | ||
| Do you think it was an attempted coup? | ||
| Do you think you can ask the Vice President to unilaterally determine the outcome of the election? | ||
| No. | ||
| Trump was exploring every option. | ||
| The main thing I wanted was a 10-day investigation. | ||
| No, Trump wanted Pence to throw out the election to declare him the winner. | ||
| Imagine if Trump would say, like, I don't believe Joe Biden can be on the ballot. | ||
| Imagine if federal judges... | ||
| And that would go to court. | ||
| And the courts can decide that. | ||
| What would Republicans be doing right now? | ||
| Biden hasn't said that. | ||
| Biden hasn't said that. | ||
| If Republicans were trying to take... | ||
| If Republicans were trying to take... | ||
| If Republicans were trying to take Joe Biden off the ballot right now, what would you say? | ||
| They are. | ||
| Let the Supreme Court decide. | ||
| Even this conservative Supreme Court, I'd say let them decide. | ||
| Let's bring in Greenwald. | ||
| Yeah, we should, but Darren, you've been floundering. | ||
| Let's bring in Greenwald. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So what's going on in that clip is them talking past each other. | ||
| Destiny is correctly saying that Trump and his team had a plan for Pence to reject the legally selected electors, which is in effect overthrowing the election unilaterally. | ||
| However, Alex thinks his position is actually different, so he's pretending to disagree with that plan. | ||
| In Alex's mind, what Pence was supposed to do is reject these electors and the states would send back Trump electors, which is what he thinks they were supposed to do to begin with, and then Trump would win the election. | ||
| There's no possible future in Alex's mind where the Yeah. | ||
| If that happened, then there would need to be another very legal and very cool 10-day investigation to make sure we get things right. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| They're saying the same thing, but Alex is trying to make his position sound less authoritarian and bad. | ||
| Because he's added fake nuance to his side, they can't really get to the rub, which is that Alex does believe that Pence was supposed to reject the results of the election, and that is why they were at the Capitol encouraging that to happen. | ||
| Right. | ||
| It's ridiculous. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Alex has not disagreed with that legal theory. | ||
| I find something interesting. | ||
| I find it interesting why Alex and them don't just go, well, the courts are a joke. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Well, this issue does come up later, so maybe you should revisit those thoughts at that point. | ||
| Because that seems to me to be the obvious rebuttal to like, oh, let the courts decide. | ||
| The courts are a joke. | ||
| In our position, if our position is... | ||
| The election, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. | ||
| Then the courts are in on it, so who fucking cares? | ||
| Well, I mean, I think that that is an unexamined and unspoken assumption within Alex's argument. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| And that is something that Destiny tries to get to the core of a bit later in the debate and basically get Alex to recognize that what he is calling for is the overthrow of the country. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And it doesn't go as well as you'd hope, but this does get explored a little bit, so you may be satisfied by that when that comes up. | ||
|
unidentified
|
All right. | |
| For now... | ||
| You've got to jump legs first, head first. | ||
| I don't know what we want to do. | ||
| Maybe an elbow drop into the pool. | ||
| All right. | ||
| But what we're jumping into is Ray Epps shit. | ||
| Jesus. | ||
| Because Darren... | ||
| I swear to God, I almost forgot again that we were talking about January 6th. | ||
| Well, we're not really going to be. | ||
| We're going to be talking about Ray Epps for quite a while. | ||
| There we go. | ||
| Darren, what's on your brain right now? | ||
| Isn't that trying to remove? | ||
| Looking at you thinking. | ||
| Well, I can attempt to answer the question about... | ||
| Federal involvement, because my reporting at Revolver News is largely responsible for changing the national conversation in that direction. | ||
| And notice they first threatened to sue you. | ||
| I'm going to leave you in a minute. | ||
| Take a piss. | ||
| They first threatened to sue you. | ||
| Now they need to drink. | ||
| In fact, I have a video. | ||
| This is about Ray Epps. | ||
| You just mentioned, Alex. | ||
| It's clip number three, and it's about 25 seconds long. | ||
| We're going to play this, and then, Darren, I want to hear what you're about to say. | ||
| Okay. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Tomorrow, we need to go into the Capitol! | |
| Into the Capitol! | ||
|
unidentified
|
No! | |
| No! | ||
| Peacefully! | ||
| Fed! | ||
| Tomorrow, I don't even like to say it because I'll be arrested. | ||
| Well, let's not say it. | ||
| We need to go... | ||
| I'll say it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
All right. | |
| We need to go in... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Shut the fuck up, Boomer. | |
| ...to the Capitol. | ||
| Oh, well, wait. | ||
| Ray Epps didn't do anything because he said peacefully at the end, right? | ||
| We didn't move past him. | ||
| Well, no, he said go into the Capitol. | ||
| But he said peacefully. | ||
| Well, so what? | ||
| It's still illegal to go into the Capitol. | ||
| I thought peacefully was the operative word. | ||
| Yeah, I thought peacefully made it all okay. | ||
| No, going in is illegal. | ||
| Trump didn't say storm the Capitol. | ||
| He didn't say go into the Capitol. | ||
| He's going to get six months in prison, so... | ||
| No, I mean, you guys want to hear the argument for federal involvement or not? | ||
| Go for it. | ||
| Not really. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| I want to hear it. | ||
| Yeah, I agree. | ||
| Not really. | ||
| There's a lot of dimensions to it. | ||
| We can start with... | ||
| Already out. | ||
| ...the Ray F's issue. | ||
| Here's a guy, you saw that, that was only part of the clip. | ||
| There's much longer clips about... | ||
| That we can't show. | ||
| But here's a guy who's the only guy caught on camera as early as January 5th, repeatedly calling for people to go into the Capitol. | ||
| So Darren... | ||
| Calls to mind someone who's speaking like waving a pen in the air. | ||
| He has a weird tone to it that I feel it requires a flourish or else this tone just doesn't really work. | ||
| Yeah, I don't like him. | ||
| And he should be very fucking careful with his words about how he's reporting how that was responsible for the coverage of Ray Epps. | ||
| Epps may be getting probation for a few months now, but he's still suing Fox News for Tucker's coverage of him that led to his family being terrorized. | ||
| Darren Beattie was a frequent guest with Tucker, talking about Ray Epps' conspiracies, and if he's here taking responsibility for this stuff, he might just talk himself into getting sued, too. | ||
| Darren says something interesting here, that Epps was the first person caught on video saying that people should go into the Capitol. | ||
| That's not true. | ||
| I'm not sure who the actual first person was, but way before Epps said any of that shit... | ||
| One of Alex's fourth-hour hosts, Matt Bracken, literally said that they should do that on January 6th. | ||
| Here he is on Alex's show on December 31st. | ||
| I actually remember this. | ||
| Here's a little clip of that. | ||
| Folks, next week we have a chance to change the course of history. | ||
| It's not going to be done by Senator Hawley by himself. | ||
| We can't wait for some... | ||
| White hat, QAnon, secret insiders going to fix it for us. | ||
| That's not going to happen. | ||
| All of that has been BS. | ||
| That's been meant to keep the sheep going in line to the slaughterhouse, nice and calm, believing in some deus ex machina that was going to pull a rabbit out of the hat and save us. | ||
| We're not going to be saved by anybody above us. | ||
| We're going to only be saved... | ||
| By millions of Americans moving to Washington, occupying the entire area, if necessary, storming right into the Capitol. | ||
| We know the rules of engagement. | ||
| If you have enough people, you can push down any kind of a fence or a wall. | ||
| So, I mean, this was enough of a public conversation in these circles that it was being openly discussed by one of Alex's co-hosts. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So, I don't know. | ||
| I don't think that it's so crazy. | ||
| He's not the first person to be caught on tape saying this. | ||
| He's the scapegoat that they chose. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, what I find so fascinating about that clip is that I agree with everything that he said. | ||
| He's absolutely correct. | ||
| That's the first time I've ever said, because he's right. | ||
| I mean, as far as the save us thing is nonsense. | ||
| But if they want what they want, they want to take over the fucking country. | ||
| Well, right. | ||
| So if you want to do that, that's how you gotta do it. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But they don't want to, you know? | ||
| What you're saying is that he's honest and consistent in what his position is. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| And that's because that was before January 6th. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| You're not saying he's right and that that is what we should do. | ||
| No, no, no, no. | ||
| That's what he wants to take over. | ||
| I just wanted to clarify that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| In terms of like... | ||
| Let's get rid of America in this conversation. | ||
| He's descriptively right of like... | ||
| That's how you throw a government. | ||
| People above you aren't going to help you create your bizarre patriot fantasy necessarily. | ||
| You're going to have to be the change you seek to have in the world. | ||
| We're not going to vote an authoritarian takeover. | ||
| No. | ||
| We have to take over authoritarianly. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We will... | |
| I mean, the country will sort of... | ||
| You know, get the ball rolling. | ||
| Sure, sure, sure. | ||
| Well, I mean, it's already on the way. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And, you know, that was 2016. | ||
| So, it's very clear if you read Ray Epps' testimony to the January 6th committee that he was talking about just going into the Capitol and having like a sit-in type protest there. | ||
| Sure, sure, sure, yeah. | ||
| He incorrectly believed that the Capitol was open to the public, which actually one of the representatives who was interviewing him... | ||
| Points out that it would have been if it weren't for COVID, most likely. | ||
| So he thought that staging a protest in the Capitol was an option because he thought it was open. | ||
| He didn't say they should storm the Capitol, but Matt Bracken certainly did on Alex's show. | ||
| So that's actually even more close to... | ||
| Yeah, but I mean, if you're being honest about doing the thing, then you should do the sit-in. | ||
| Even though it's illegal. | ||
| The illegality is part of the protest. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| The sit-in. | ||
| It's a non-violent civil protest, you know? | ||
| I agree with you, but committing the violence needed to get there in the circumstances that actually existed on January 6th make it more difficult. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| What you would want to do is create a line around the barricade and make them forcibly remove you or something like that. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| Instead of... | ||
| You know, violently pushing through assaulting officers and then do the peaceful city inside the Capitol. | ||
| But, you know, his point is, you know, yeah, if we're going to make a protest, protests aren't legal. | ||
| The government doesn't like people protesting the government. | ||
| Well, you know. | ||
| Protests often aren't legal. | ||
| That's why we have free speech zones. | ||
| They often involve some sort of civil disobedience. | ||
| Right, exactly. | ||
| And that is a big part of it. | ||
| So Darren lays out some pretty thin evidence here that he has for Ray Epps being a Fed, which also, they go back and forth on a whole lot. | ||
| Like, the definition of, like, what is he? | ||
| Is he a Fed? | ||
| Is he working for an unnamed third entity or something like that? | ||
| It's very bizarre. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Here's a guy, you saw that, that was only part of the clip. | ||
| There's much longer clips about Ray Epps. | ||
| But here's a guy who's the only guy caught on camera as early as January 5th, repeatedly calling for people to go into the Capitol and prefacing his seemingly rehearsed remarks in each case, saying, I'm probably going to go to jail for this. | ||
| I'm probably going to get arrested for this. | ||
| I need to go into the Capitol. | ||
| The next day, he flew across the whole country, presumably to go hear Trump's speech. | ||
| He skipped Trump's speech. | ||
| Instead, he was a veritable Where's Waldo, everywhere on January 6th, directing people, capital it's there's only one waldo and he's that's where our notoriously difficult to find then amazingly he's pre-positioned right at that initial decisive breach point on the west perimeter of the capital and he's whispering into somebody's ear just seconds before the bike racks are broken through he texts his nephew i orchestrated it | ||
| On paper, think about it. | ||
| He's like a 6 '3", former Marine, who was wearing camo gear and a Trump hat, and he just happens to have had a leadership position in the Oath Keepers. | ||
| The most demonized and heavily prosecuted... | ||
| He used to, right? | ||
| He doesn't anymore. | ||
| The most demonized and heavily prosecuted militia group associated with January 6th. | ||
| And the regime doesn't touch him. | ||
| So this is about, I mean, you know... | ||
| If you want more than this, anything deeper than this, I don't think you're going to get it. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Like, Darren's supposed to be the guy who wrote the book on Ray Epps, and he got this whole demonization campaign going by writing about him and then going on Tucker to talk shit about him, and yet this is pretty thin. | ||
| This is all just kind of vibes and feelings. | ||
| Okay, so if I understand correctly, our evidence as it stands, he is six foot three. | ||
| That will be repeated a couple times. | ||
| He is wearing camo. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Uh-huh. | |
| He's got a Trump hat on. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| And he's a former Marine with a former position in a militia. | ||
| And there's some out-of-context videos of him and text that he sent to his nephew. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| Now, I would also say all of these things would be straightforward evidence for not being anything other than what he is. | ||
| Especially that text message. | ||
| But we'll get to that when we get to it. | ||
| So first off, at the end there, Darren says that the government won't touch Epps, but he just got sentenced to six months probation. | ||
| That isn't a problem for the conspiracy theorists, though, because they'll just say that the government only did that because they made such a big deal out of how they weren't punishing Epps, so the government finally gave them some punishment to try and cover up him being a Fed. | ||
| It's circular. | ||
| Once the narrative is set, any affirmative or negative decision that gets made is interpreted as proof of that narrative. | ||
| It's gospel that Ray Epps is a Fed provocateur, and part of the proof of that is that he wasn't prosecuted. | ||
| The fact that he has been prosecuted in no way shakes the narrative. | ||
| It's twisted into supporting it by fantasy writing stuff about it, like how the conspiracy pressure forced the government to charge Epps so people wouldn't think he's a Fed. | ||
| If they charge him, it's a cover-up. | ||
| If they don't charge him, it's proof that he's a Fed and that he ran J6. | ||
| The other points Darren makes here dumb, too, and if he cared at all, he could find explanations for them. | ||
| For instance, Epps explained why he said that he might get arrested if they went to the Capitol the next day in that famous video of him for the night of the 5th. | ||
| He testified that, and the larger video that Darren is referring to there clearly shows that Epps was out on the street around a bunch of agitators like Baked Alaska. | ||
| Epps tried to de-escalate the situation as he told the J6 committee... | ||
| De-escalate the... | ||
| de-alascalate the... | ||
| It's not bad. | ||
| So he told the J6 committee, quote, they were trying, there's only a few that were, by a few I mean five or six, that were trying to incite violence with the police, trying to get other people involved in it. | ||
| And I kind of recognized what he was doing, this Baked Alaska. | ||
| He would try and incite something and then stand off and film it and call it news. | ||
| I tried to get people not to engage in that. | ||
| First off, he very accurately assessed Baked Alaska's business model. | ||
| As for the possibility of getting arrested, he explained that by saying, It's pretty clear from his testimony that you can see what the thought process here is. | ||
| He encountered lifelong shithead and scam guy Baked Alaska and others trying to whip people into a frenzy to get into a confrontation with police or some kind of violence that night. | ||
| Baked Alaska obviously has a financial incentive to try to do that because that's prime content for him and he has no concern for the well-being of others. | ||
| Epps tries to calm things down and says that they should go into the Capitol the next day because he thinks the Capitol is open to the public. | ||
| He's saying maybe I'll get arrested as a way to make his proposal sound as exciting or threatening to the establishment as those agitators' plans of trying to incite street violence. | ||
| It was in a sense saying you may get arrested doing that tonight, and I might get arrested doing this tomorrow, but at least my plan involves some productive action. | ||
| It's misguided, and he was wrong about the Capitol being open, but it's not too difficult to understand the thought process that a... | ||
| Six-foot-three older guy might come up with. | ||
| He's well-positioned. | ||
| In fact, probably the only person positioned to actually have an influence on these people by being six-foot-three and wearing camo and being a former Marine. | ||
| Right, right. | ||
| It's understandable how that is something that he could say that isn't like, I'm going to go... | ||
| Fucking break everything. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| It makes sense, yeah. | ||
| So next, Darren says that Epps flew across the country to see Trump's speech, but then he skipped it, and that's not entirely true. | ||
| Darren and his son made the trip mostly to be at the rally, but also because they wanted to visit Appomattox Manor, a plot of land that apparently includes some family history, including a place called Epps Island. | ||
| It was partially a trip that would pass on the family history to the next generation. | ||
| Epps told the committee, quote, we're proud of our heritage. | ||
| My family hasn't always been on the right side of history. | ||
| Some of them were, some of them weren't. | ||
| We have a lot to live up to, I mean. | ||
| And that's what we've tried to teach our children. | ||
| And it's a trip we plan to take in the future for our grandchildren that we all go and show off this great heritage that we have. | ||
| All right. | ||
| We need to release the Epps Island logs. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| I want to know who is there. | ||
| All the people who came to America through Epps Island? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| So that was one part of the trip, but the rally on the 6th was definitely the biggest part of it. | ||
| Epps got to the site about 6 or 7 that morning and stayed to see all the speakers up to Trump. | ||
| He saw a little bit of Trump's speech and then, quote, There was a group that started running towards the Capitol. | ||
| They were moving quite fast, so I just thought, you know what? | ||
| I want to be in the front. | ||
| I'll get up there. | ||
| Part of the reason he showed up so early is that he liked to be at the front, so this is somewhat in character. | ||
| He explained that he likes to get in front so he's able to see where all the vehicles are at, to be able to look out Yeah. | ||
| It's a piece of evidence, and I think that it's easy to understand why you would skip Trump's speech. | ||
| He's just gonna ramble and talk about how great he is a bunch. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I was there early at the stage for the Daft Punk Live tour. | ||
| No, I just really wanted to see the concert. | ||
| It was the Pyramid of Light one. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Not a Fed! | ||
| Just to throw that out there. | ||
| I was famously up front and center for the Wu-Tang Clan concert in Columbia, Missouri. | ||
| It was great. | ||
| I bet it was. | ||
| I bet it really was. | ||
| Famously got to slap Ghostface's medallion. | ||
| Felt pretty cool. | ||
| Yeah, that is pretty cool. | ||
| So Darren says that he's a Where's Waldo at the Capitol. | ||
| This is a comical portrayal, as if Epps was everywhere. | ||
| If the level of moving around he did was somehow suspicious, then everyone at the Capitol, including and especially Alex himself, is super suspicious. | ||
| Darren says he tells people to go into the Capitol, which he didn't do on the 6th. | ||
| He gave people some directions to the Capitol, but then that part is true. | ||
| There's a video of him from before the rally giving some people directions because, quote, it was pretty common knowledge that everyone was going to go to the Capitol. | ||
| I was just trying to help out. | ||
| Yeah, you're going to take a left on blah. | ||
| Everyone knew that. | ||
| It was common knowledge that that was the end point. | ||
| So Darren says that Epps is, quote, pre-positioned at the initial breach point, which is kind of sneaky language. | ||
| What's the difference between being pre-positioned and that just happening to be where you are? | ||
| He ended up at that barricade because that's where the group he broke off from the rally with led to. | ||
| Until he got to that barricade, he thought they were going to be allowed into the Capitol because it would be open to the public. | ||
| That mentality shifted and he realized that that wasn't going to be the case. | ||
| There's a video of him at the barricade saying, quote, when we go in, leave this here, likely referring to some kind of a weapon a fellow rallygoer was carrying, but we don't actually know for sure. | ||
| Epps testified that he doesn't remember saying that because his mentality shifted when he got to the barricade and realized they weren't going to just be let into the building, which is a little curious, but I can see there being a benign explanation for all that that doesn't involve him being a fed. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| It's a leap to jump from that kind of like, that's weird, to, oh, definitely he's a baroque tour fed. | ||
| Yeah, I'm going to need a badge. | ||
| Or just anything. | ||
| Anything. | ||
| Anything would help. | ||
| Anything concrete and substantial. | ||
| Maybe like an employee of the month sticker. | ||
| That would be good. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Darren's next point is that Epps whispers in someone's ear just seconds before the bike racks are broken through. | ||
| That is true. | ||
| And both Epps and the person who he whispered to have gone on record and explained that. | ||
| I'm Waldo. | ||
| That is it? | ||
| Yep. | ||
| So this other person, Ryan Samsell, had already been shaking the bike racks before that made up the barricade. | ||
| The video that's used to attack Epps excludes some context, but it explains why Epps whispered to him that he shouldn't attack the cops. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| It's not what this is about. | ||
| That's what he whispered to him to try and calm him down. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Both him and Samsell said that's what was communicated. | ||
| And if being around Ryan Samsell is such a suspicious thing... | ||
| There are pictures from January 6th where he's hanging out with his arm around Joe Biggs. | ||
| In fact, Samsell told the FBI that Biggs had pushed him to fight the police at the barricade, and there's a video of them interacting just before he started shaking the bike rack. | ||
| If Samsell's telling the truth, then a possible interpretation would be that Alex's former employee, Joe Biggs, told Samsell to go fight with the police and break down that barrier, which he started trying to do, at which point Ray Epps stopped in and tried to calm him down. | ||
| I'm not sure what happened exactly, but I have more familiarity with Joe Biggs' character. | ||
| I think it was largely because the Dominion-type narratives and that kind of election stealing stuff was fizzling. | ||
| And so I think it was an exciting way. | ||
| And I think there's probably also a piece of it that you're correct about, which is trying to deflect blame. | ||
| But I don't think it's just specific people. | ||
| I think it's as a whole for the event itself. | ||
| Because they don't want to take responsibility for wanting the thing that you're correctly assessing that they want. | ||
| Sure, but if you want to do that, then you... | ||
| You throw one of the big ones to the wolves, you know? | ||
| You throw Joe Biggs as a fed. | ||
| Joe Biggs is now a fed. | ||
| You know, that kind of thing. | ||
| And because he's in jail for a long time, that helps. | ||
| But some of that already happens with Enrique Tarrio, because he had a past as an informant. | ||
| Sure, but I mean, but you've already got the eps by the time we figure out Enrico is... | ||
| Not necessarily. | ||
| An informant. | ||
| Not necessarily. | ||
| There was already an awareness that he was informed before that. | ||
| Oh, sure, sure. | ||
| I just mean, if you're going to pin it, don't do it on the guy who's kind of anonymous. | ||
| Throw one of the big guys to the wolves, and then you're not going to get sued, you're not going to have all this shit, you're not going to do the whole thing. | ||
| Here's where I disagree with you. | ||
| Making it more believable. | ||
| I definitely think it would be more believable. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But making it a random person allows you to fully craft your own narrative and characterize it however you want. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| Someone like Joe Biggs, you're trying to brand him as a fed provocateur or something like that. | ||
| Right. | ||
| There's a lot of stuff you've got to write around. | ||
| There's a lot of awareness of him as a character and a personality inside these right-wing spaces already. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| And so you kind of are a little bit... | ||
| Boxed in to a corner. | ||
| Yeah, but see, that's part of why I feel like the... | ||
| I mean, I don't know why we're... | ||
| Talking about this. | ||
| In my head, I'm like, okay, here's how I would get to do what I wanted, which is unfairly malign a human being, and also not get sued by Fox News. | ||
| And it's like, what am I doing? | ||
| I don't need to give people advice about this. | ||
| Yeah, I think everybody thinks that they're immune from being sued. | ||
| That's kind of what it is. | ||
| I was like, okay, well, if you're in this scenario, then you have to kind of play ball within the rules of your situation. | ||
| And it's like, they don't think like that. | ||
| They just don't think like that. | ||
| They just move. | ||
| Well, I think the narrative and the need for narrative is stronger than the worry about being sued, probably, in a lot of cases. | ||
| And I think that, you know, generally speaking, the audience for this right-wing media shit is like... | ||
| Very much not wanting to accept that they were engaged in something that was attempting to overthrow an election. | ||
| And so it's so enticing to have somebody to be, it was him! | ||
| He did it! | ||
| It allows you to emotionally disconnect from your intentions. | ||
| Yeah, we should definitely no longer consider us separate from apes. | ||
| That would be a terrible idea. | ||
| We have overlap. | ||
| So Epps did text his nephew, and he did say that he had, quote, orchestrated it. | ||
| It's important to remember, though, that that was at 2.12 p.m. that day. | ||
| The riot was far from over, and honestly, most of the shit hadn't even happened at that point. | ||
| Actually, Babbitt isn't shot until 2.44, so this is just before the Senate adjourns. | ||
| Epps was there, so he didn't know what was going on. | ||
| And even then, a lot of the worst stuff hadn't even happened yet. | ||
| Saying that this text is him saying he orchestrated it means, if you're saying that it means that he I didn't know that | ||
| windows had been broken. | ||
| I didn't know that anyone is at the Capitol. | ||
| If I answered him at 2.12, I was on my way back to the hotel room. | ||
| He hadn't seen the news yet at this point. | ||
| He didn't have a full picture of what was going on, so he probably didn't think things got as out of hand as it did. | ||
| And he's comfortable joking around with his nephew, bragging about how he got people there. | ||
| You know, like, hey, were you a part of it? | ||
| Yeah, it is interesting, his story, because it seems like he's one of the few people who is not subsumed into the mob. | ||
| You know, like, he seems like a guy who's, like, watching the mob, whereas so many other people were just part of the mob. | ||
| And some of that, I mean, who knows exactly? | ||
| You have to try and make assumptions, I guess, about someone's mental state. | ||
| Sure, sure. | ||
| But I could very easily see, you know, based on the answers that he gave to the January 6th committee, you could assess that, like... | ||
| Things changed for him when that barricade was there. | ||
| He's like, I gotta get out of here. | ||
| I don't want to be a part of this. | ||
| Oh no, I'm not part of the mob. | ||
| A second aspect of it is that one of the main reasons that he wanted to go along to DC was because he was going with his son and he wanted to look after him. | ||
| And his son and him got separated. | ||
| And so when shit kicked off, there's a very good chance that he was concerned about the well-being and whereabouts of his son. | ||
| So that could have also been a part of the not getting caught up in mob mentality. | ||
| You ever been part of a mob? | ||
| I almost got trampled by the mob at that Wu-Tang concert. | ||
| Ironically, actually true. | ||
| But it wasn't a mob. | ||
| It was the mob that was trampling people at the Wu-Tang concert. | ||
| The Italian Mafia was a... | ||
| It was a mess. | ||
| You know what? | ||
| It's not exactly the mob, but definitely when I went to a Cubs playoff game... | ||
| It was just maybe the season after they won the World Series? | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| After that, it was... | ||
| 17, yeah. | ||
| So it was... | ||
| Bobby Buds had season tickets. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, yeah. | |
| And he brought me along to one of the games. | ||
| And after... | ||
| Towards the end of the game and after when everybody's saying, Go Cubs, go. | ||
| Like, I felt like a part of the whole. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| We weren't mobbing anything. | ||
| No, no, no, no. | ||
| But I did get a feeling of like... | ||
| If we all now marched somewhere, I might go. | ||
| It is a real feeling. | ||
| And it is such a thing where it's like, you don't know how powerful it is until you're already doing something. | ||
| With a lot of other people. | ||
| I was singing Go Cubs Go. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And I hate that song. | ||
| When have you ever sung Go Cubs Go? | ||
| Right. | ||
| I'm very on record as not liking that song. | ||
| No, but in the moment, all of a sudden, you're halfway through Go Cubs Go before you go, wait, am I even still singing? | ||
| Your individuality, it's not erased, but it becomes part of the whole. | ||
| And that is a very... | ||
| Bizarre experience. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And dangerous, as we can see. | ||
| It can be. | ||
| Or it can be wonderful. | ||
| Or it can be truly wonderful. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Euphoric. | ||
| One of the fun things about being humans, that razor's edge. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| So Darren says that Epps had a leadership position in the Oath Keepers, but that was like in 2009. | ||
| It was early days for the group. | ||
| And actually, here is Epps' answer for why he left the group a few years after he had joined. | ||
| Those dudes went crazy. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Quote, Stuart wanted to... | ||
| There were some things going on in Washington and Portland. | ||
| I think... | ||
| It was Portland. | ||
| Yeah, it was Portland. | ||
| I think that's when Antifa had first come out, and we were seeing a lot of things. | ||
| They were burning things and doing different things on the news, and he thought it would be wise if we were to go there and try to direct them, get in with them and direct them to do things other ways. | ||
| I didn't agree with that, so we kind of split ways. | ||
| He left because Stuart Rhodes wanted to try and co-opt Antifa in Portland, most likely in relation to the Occupy Portland protest in 2011. | ||
| And then Epps disagreed with that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| I'm not certain if that's the Portland protest he's talking about, but it would match up timeline-wise, and it matches with the tactics that folks in the extreme right wing used with Occupy protests, where they tried to infiltrate and co-op people to their side using things Yep. | ||
| There's no case here with Epps. | ||
| All of these points that he's bringing up, there's just nothing here except for kind of a feeling. | ||
| Maybe it's my vibe that this is weird. | ||
| And maybe I'm a little desperate to feel like he's weird and I'm willing to cling to that in defiance of God knows what. | ||
| Yeah, and you're just portraying things in the least generous light possible. | ||
| Darren's exaggerating them, but it's just kind of a pile of trivia. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It is fascinating listening to this specific thing, especially after being way too into the traitors right now. | ||
| You know, like there is so much of... | ||
| He's trying to get the apps at the round table. | ||
| I mean, it's like when you listen to the round table people talk and just throw out something that is just patently either untrue or absurd, and then other people just start going like... | ||
| You know what? | ||
| I think you might be right. | ||
| And then it just... | ||
| It is insane. | ||
| It is insane to look at people do that. | ||
| You know, there is kind of a similarity there, too. | ||
| And that, like, you know, Darren's trying to, at the round table, put the finger towards Ray Epps. | ||
| And other people are jumping on board because they don't want people to think that they're the traitor. | ||
| And they get voted out. | ||
| So they have an incentive to dogpile. | ||
| And that is kind of... | ||
| You know, what's going on with Epps. | ||
| It is interesting that now I feel like all of the shows I watch are just variations on the prisoner's dilemma and with physical challenges. | ||
| That's it. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So Darren has some more evidence about Ray Epps and I'm still not convinced. | ||
| I'm going to go back to he was wearing camo. | ||
| He was considered to be so egregious he was one of the first 20 people added to the FBI's most wanted list about January 6th. | ||
| He was prominently featured in the New York Times' ominously titled Day of Rage. | ||
| Of all the clips the New York Times could have found and chosen, they chose Ray Epps to represent their thesis that this was a pre-planned insurrection to storm the Capitol. | ||
| And then, when the discussion of federal involvement came into be, one of our major pieces at Revolver News, literally the next day is when the FBI quietly removed him from their list. | ||
| And all of a sudden, he went from FBI's Most Wanted and featured in the New York Times' Day of Rage to New York Times does a fully dedicated puff piece on him. | ||
| 60 Minutes does a sympathy segment on him. | ||
| He's the only January 6th participant that Adam Kinzinger, who's never met a Trump supporter, he doesn't want to see rotting in jail for 50 years, that Adam Kinzinger will defend more aggressively than Epps' own lawyers. | ||
| And now, almost three years after, the government finally says, okay, we're going to hit you with a wrist slap misdemeanor, as though people are so simple-minded to think, Well, if the argument hasn't been indicted, therefore he's a Fed, | ||
| if we indict him now, even if it's a misdemeanor, even three years after, no matter what the circumstances, this constitutes a refutation and totally wipes away the mountains of suspicious evidence surrounding the character of Ray Epps. | ||
| The double bluff! | ||
| Yeah, I was about to say, are you telling me that they know what they did? | ||
| Is not going to convince you. | ||
| And yet your motivation that you have ascribed to them is that they're doing this to convince you specifically. | ||
| Well, it's because so much of the argument in the beginning and shit about Ray Epps was that he hadn't been charged. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| So now that he has and he has been convicted, you need to deal with that. | ||
| And so the way you deal with that is be like, ha ha, it's a cover up. | ||
| It's basically what I'm saying. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But it's pretending that your conspiracies are directing law enforcement policy. | ||
| And that seems a little bit much. | ||
| Seems like a leap. | ||
| I'm not going to follow. | ||
| Not only is the TV talking to me, I'm writing the show as it goes along. | ||
| And laws. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| So Darren should be really careful. | ||
| That lawsuit is still active, and Epps has been very clear about how the spreading of these smears about him has led to his family being terrorized, so there's no excuse for Darren to not understand the consequences of his actions. | ||
| Ray Epps is not a public figure, so there's a lot less wiggle room for defamation defenses here. | ||
| There's no evidence that Epps' behavior being so egregious is what got him put on the FBI's wanted list. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| There's a very clearly, it could have been just that he was one of the people they had the most questions. | ||
| I like the quote. | ||
| That the FBI quietly took him off their most wanted list. | ||
| Go to New Orleans, get a marching band. | ||
| And two, what have they ever not quietly taken? | ||
| I didn't even know that there were, like the list doesn't stay the same, right? | ||
| Every time they change the list without catching somebody, I didn't know about it. | ||
| Well, it's somewhat interesting because what he's talking about is the capital offenders wanted list. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| And so Ray Epps was the 16th person. | ||
| Photograph 16 on that list. | ||
|
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Sure. | |
| And so... | ||
| Number one was Saddam. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Yeah, he's the ace. | ||
| As a lot of people... | ||
| Were arrested. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah. | |
| Their pictures stayed up there, and then it said arrested under them. | ||
| And so it was, Reyes was maybe the first person who just disappeared. | ||
| Who didn't, okay, gotcha. | ||
| And didn't end up with arrested under him. | ||
| And they say that he's the only person, but that's absolutely not true. | ||
|
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| It may have been true originally. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Like, in as much as he was the first person, but he was not the last, because there's people who have just been removed from it. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| So the Day of Rage thing that Darren's talking about, about the New York Times, that's a 40-minute film they put out back in 2011. | ||
| Or 2021. | ||
| Holy shit. | ||
| I'm still writing June on my check. | ||
| It's a huge stretch to say that Epps was, quote, prominently featured in that documentary. | ||
| It includes the clip of him talking to Baked Alaska from the night of the 5th and the clip of him telling people how to get to the Capitol building, but all that's in the first seven minutes of the film. | ||
| The stuff after that that doesn't include Epps is way worse, and I would say that the Proud Boys like Biggs and Rufio Pan Man are far more prominently featured. | ||
| The FBI did have Epps on their most wanted list as it relates to January 6th, but they most likely removed him because as soon as someone I don't think this is suspicious, unless you're desperately looking for something to be suspicious about. | ||
| I love this conspiracy theory, because to me, it's like watching the movie John Wick, right? | ||
| And then having a cop be like, you know what? | ||
| I bet it was that gas station attendant at the very beginning of the movie. | ||
| Let's focus on that guy. | ||
| He's the one who did it! | ||
| I really wish I could join you in this. | ||
| I've never seen any of those movies. | ||
| Oh, man. | ||
| I don't get the reference. | ||
| The first John Wick. | ||
| Unimpeachable. | ||
| That's what they say. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| So Darren's impeachable, and he's playing games with the timeline here in order to paint a dishonest picture. | ||
| So I'm going to replay this part where he gives what appears to be a timeline. | ||
| One of our major pieces at Revolver News, literally the next day, is when the FBI quietly removed him from their list. | ||
| And all of a sudden, he went from FBI's Most Wanted and featured in the New York Times' Day of Rage to... | ||
| New York Times does a fully dedicated puff piece on him. | ||
| 60 Minutes does a sympathy segment on him. | ||
| So if you're tracking his thought there, the order of events is this. | ||
| The FBI has Epps on the Most Wanted list, and the New York Times includes him in the Day of Rage documentary. | ||
| Then Darren's dumb website talks about him, and Epps is quietly removed from the Wanted list, and times they do a puff piece on him. | ||
| This is a timeline constructed for the purpose of building a fraudulent narrative, because it doesn't reflect chronological time. | ||
| No, that's why you make it this timeline, not the real chronological time. | ||
| The idea is that the man wanted to use him as a patsy, knowing that he was a fed, and they could sort it out all secretly, but then Darren got the scoop, so they had to change tracks. | ||
| Because Darren had them all figured out, they removed Epps from the wanted list, and then the Times does this puff piece to paint him as a woe is me figure. | ||
| But here's the real timeline. | ||
| The Day of Rage documentary came out on June 30th, 2021. | ||
| Epps was removed I believe probably sometime between the night of... | ||
| June 30th and July 1st, 2021. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So in there, most likely because his lawyer was communicating with him. | ||
| Darren covered Epps for the first time in an article titled Who is Ray Epps? | ||
| That came out on October 25th, 2021. | ||
| And years later, well, I mean, Ray Epps sued Fox News. | ||
|
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Sure. | |
| There's been these soft puff pieces about how he was labeled a fed that made his life and his family's life a living hell. | ||
| But I think there was another article before that, but it was still about how he was being branded this fed and how it was fucking his life up. | ||
|
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I don't know. | |
| Can you write a puff piece about a bunch of strangers torturing your family? | ||
| I mean, you can puff a little. | ||
| But I don't know if it's a puff piece. | ||
| So in the real world, this is a coherent timeline of these events. | ||
| and it makes sense how all this flows. | ||
| Darren needs to tweak the timeline because his narrative relies on a fraudulent cause and effect relationship between these events. | ||
| He needs his reporting to have been the cause of the FBI the watch list and the wanted list because they were scared that he was on their tracks. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
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It's all a charade. | |
| And if Ray Epps is the best example of a fed provocateur that everyone keeps going back to and they're spending so much time about here. | ||
| This is like this guy is supposed to also be the guy who knows the most. | ||
| I'm not impressed by this. | ||
| No. | ||
| This doesn't stand up. | ||
| I feel, and I could be wrong about this, I feel like Darren Beatty doesn't get paid enough to do this. | ||
| You know what I mean? | ||
| I think he works cheap. | ||
| Like, when you hear a politician gets bribed for like a hundred grand, you're like, that is cheap. | ||
| That's too cheap. | ||
| I feel like it should be more expensive, right? | ||
| I feel like Darren Beatty is selling his soul cheap. | ||
| I think... | ||
| He gets in where he fits in, and I don't think he commands a price. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I just feel like if a lateral move salary-wise is like insurance agent, just be an insurance agent, man. | ||
| No, you don't get to go on Tucker then. | ||
| Yeah, that's fair. | ||
| So, now that Darren has spoken his piece about, you know, this Ray Epp stuff, Destiny jumps in and tries to explain some of this stuff. | ||
| And I've noticed that they're able to talk a bit, and that's because Alex went to go pee. | ||
| Ah, that makes sense. | ||
| Alex is a bit on a timeout here, having a drink. | ||
| Not yelling at him. | ||
| For the Ray Epp stuff, if you look at his story from start to finish, it is incredibly obvious. | ||
| The guy is a boomer. | ||
| The guy was a huge Trump supporter. | ||
| No, he wasn't. | ||
| He used to be part of the Oath Keepers a while before. | ||
| That's what he testified to under oath. | ||
| He used to be part of... | ||
| He was part of the Oath Keepers years earlier than he left. | ||
| I think it was the Arizona chapter. | ||
| Ray Epps went to the march. | ||
| You said he skipped the speech. | ||
| Tons of people were listening to the speech on cell phones and other things and broadcasting to other people. | ||
| Ray Epps was outside the speech. | ||
| There's on video, I know, because you posted in your article with him literally telling people, let's go, we're marching to the Capitol. | ||
| That was before the speech began. | ||
| Yeah, but he's out to the ellipse. | ||
| He's telling people in advance of the speech we need to go to the Capitol because somehow he got it in his mind that everything would end up at the Capitol. | ||
| Everybody had it in their mind. | ||
| Before the speech began, there are timestamps on the video. | ||
| We can go back and watch it. | ||
| The Revolver story is up there. | ||
| For every single thing that you assert about him, that he's in video whispering into a guy's ear, you say it in the rest of your article, all he's doing on the day of when the protesting is getting violent is going up and down telling people, don't fight with the cops. | ||
| Don't fight with the cops. | ||
| The cops are on our side. | ||
| That's what he's saying the entire time. | ||
| The idea that he said that the entire day, but the one guy whose ear that he whispered into that unfortunately we don't have, you know. | ||
| No, audio capture of that he and Sam Sewell testified to as he said, "Hey..." The cops are on our side or the cops aren't enemies. | ||
| They both say something to that effect. | ||
| And that seems to synergize with everything else he said on that day. | ||
| You go on to say that that guy immediately after was the one that broke down the fence. | ||
| No, he's not. | ||
| You can see like 15 people right next to him that are all trying to break down the fence. | ||
| Yeah, the guy goes in eventually. | ||
| But if we truly believe that this guy is a federal agent or is working to instigate the riot, we've laid out absolutely nothing supporting that. | ||
| Just some video footage of another boomer being at the rally that was there. | ||
| If you want to say that why was he removed from the FBI list? | ||
| I mean, why was he removing everybody else? | ||
| Like, all of the information is out there. | ||
| He said that after his video was identified, and people on X started to identify him, and then because all of his online stuff is incredibly easy to find, he started to get phone calls, he started to get harassed, he started to get threats, so he called the FBI as soon as this was brought to his attention, and he told the FBI, hey, this was me, and here I am, and this is what's happening, and the FBI took him off the list. | ||
| No, wrong. | ||
| Your timeline is wrong. | ||
| He called the FBI when he saw himself in the videos. | ||
| Wrong. | ||
| Yeah, a friend told him about it. | ||
| Pen twirl. | ||
| That's what he testified. | ||
| He called the FBI very shortly after January 6th because of his picture being on the most wanted list. | ||
| He wasn't taken off the most wanted list until the middle part of 2021. | ||
| There were multiple months span between him calling the FBI in the first instance. | ||
| And being quietly removed. | ||
| That's not true. | ||
| Yes, it is. | ||
| No, that's not true. | ||
| I can tell you why it's not true, okay? | ||
| Because what you did, because I read your article, is you looked at two archived versions of the website and you didn't have a 12-month archive. | ||
| For some reason, you assumed that the recent snapshot that you took at 2021, you think that that was the first time the page has been changed. | ||
| That was just the first time the page has been archived. | ||
| I don't think the FBI has made a statement on it, but what Epps testified to was that he either saw a video of himself or a friend saw a video of himself or a friend saw him on the list where people were, and then people were making videos, and then he called the FBI and he said, hey, I need to talk to you and this is what's going on. | ||
| If he was a Fed, why would they remove him from the list when everybody's clearly looking at the list? | ||
| He was one of the only people removed. | ||
| Why would senators be defending him so vigilantly? | ||
| That's a great question. | ||
| Why was he quietly removed? | ||
| Right when the question of federal involvement became a major part of the national conversation. | ||
| And let me just... | ||
| I don't want to get lost in these weeds. | ||
| No, you don't, do you? | ||
| Oh, man. | ||
| So weird. | ||
| He doesn't want to get lost in the weeds of examining the ways that his theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny. | ||
| Totally unfamiliar behavior. | ||
| Listen, I don't want to get into the details of why I'm lying to you, all right? | ||
| Or I just have a flimsy-ass argument. | ||
| Also, the question lingers unanswered. | ||
| If Epps was a Fed, why would they remove him from the most wanted list? | ||
| If he's a Fed provocateur willing to engage in actions meant to incite people to storm the Capitol, you've got to think the guy's not above 10%. | ||
| Yeah, totally. | ||
| is number one, put him on the list in the first place, and then number two, remove him from that list and make things very suspicious. | ||
| Also, Destiny is totally right about pretty much everything about Epps, but he makes a critical error here, which is also kind of Darren's fault. | ||
| Destiny says that Darren has these two snapshots in his revolver article that are from the Wayback Machine of the FBI's wanted list, and that they don't depict when a page has been changed, just shows when it was archived. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| The two snapshots that Darren has here are from February 16th, 2021, and July 1st, 2021. | ||
| The first one shows Epps included as... | ||
| photograph 16 and the latter does not include a photograph 16 at all jumping from 15 to 17. Darren has this wide gulf between the two snapshots there's no reason to believe that the page wasn't updated somewhere between those two dates and he's just assuming that it was on July 1st sure it could be any time in there and that's what destiny hasn't proven anything about right yeah this is sloppy work which destiny is calling out but I don't know if destiny pursued the second step here which is to check for himself the | ||
| They're archived constantly. | ||
| So there's a version of this particular site from every... | ||
| Multiple archived versions of it from every day. | ||
| Every four hours. | ||
| And the reality is that Epps was on there on June 30th and not on July 1st. | ||
| Darren's provided screenshots that don't show this, but it is the case that the change to the FBI site appears to have happened that day. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Which supports Ray Epps calling on that day and them changing it. | ||
| No. | ||
| No. | ||
| He did call... | ||
| Really, like in January. | ||
| Oh, okay. | ||
| Yeah, he called on like January 8th or something like that. | ||
| Okay, okay. | ||
| So the... | ||
| This doesn't prove anything that Ray Epps is a Fed. | ||
| It could easily just be that Epps' lawyer began the process of cooperation with the FBI in mid to late January, and it took a couple of months of back and forth or even administrative processes to get to the point where he came off that wanted list. | ||
| That makes sense. | ||
| Yeah, sure. | ||
| Destiny's general point here is correct, but he's challenging Darren on a point of fact that he seems to be incorrect about. | ||
| This isn't a great position to be in, and I understand how the snapshots in Darren's article could lead to that conclusion, but that wasn't because Darren was wrong. | ||
| He just did a bad job in the article. | ||
| Right, right, right, right. | ||
| Also, you notice how much easier it is for people to talk about sentences. | ||
| Ah, yeah. | ||
| Twitter's gonna dunk on you tomorrow. | ||
| This is an interesting case study in you and me, in a lot of ways, because there's a part of you that is excited, whatever the Destiny and Derek Beatty get into it. | ||
| It's a change of pace. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| Whereas me, I'm just sitting here going, stop this. | ||
| What are you doing? | ||
| What are you doing? | ||
| No, I mean, I yearn for the... | ||
| The Alex drunkenly yelling, but it is at least like a promise of the premise of a debate that people are going to have some... | ||
| Like, actual back and forth. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah, yeah, that's fair. | |
| And so at least there's a little meat on the bone. | ||
| Lip service. | ||
| And then now there's just a shitload of dessert. | ||
| Let's get back to drinking. | ||
| Dessert that's like a cake that's made with cognac. | ||
| Too much cognac. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So Darren and the left on the panel, Destiny and Bed, they find some agreement, seemingly, on Epps. | ||
| So you're saying, he said, we need to go into the Capitol peacefully. | ||
| And you point out correctly that in many instances caught on video, he's engaged in what you could call de-escalation of the crowd, and he's not urging people to violence. | ||
| That's all correct. | ||
| I never said he's urging people to violence. | ||
| He was absolutely a provocateur, and his mission, as stated and as implemented and as orchestrated by his own verbatim text, was he wanted people to go into the Capitol peacefully. | ||
| That might be the case. | ||
| Wait, wait. | ||
| That might be the case. | ||
| And if that's all you're saying... | ||
| It's not all. | ||
| No, that's everything. | ||
| That's everything. | ||
| Nobody here is saying that he didn't say that and he didn't want people to do that. | ||
| But the claim is that there's some sort of... | ||
| That's illegal. | ||
| That's fine. | ||
| He can be charged for it. | ||
| Do you think anyone here care if he gets charged for that crime? | ||
| The issue is you're saying that he was doing it under the direction of a federal agency. | ||
| The 6-3 guy that looks like he's dying of type 2 diabetes and arthritis is somehow some intimidating Marine captain that's sending people into the Capitol. | ||
| That was your claim that you've provided zero evidence for and you don't in either of the articles that you write about him. | ||
| We've got Glenn back on the horn. | ||
| Whoa, Glenn was gone! | ||
| Yeah, and he also accidentally said Glenn Beck. | ||
| That's fun. | ||
| That's fun. | ||
| So this is a critical moment to understand here. | ||
| Darren is laying out undeniably true things about Epps. | ||
| He said that people should go into the Capitol peacefully and that's caught on video. | ||
| You can't deny that. | ||
|
unidentified
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Right. | |
| He wants you to agree to that, which of course you have to. | ||
| But the real argument Darren is making is what Destiny lays out there, that Epps was doing all this under the auspices of being a federal agent provocateur. | ||
| Right. | ||
| This is a rhetorical strategy known as the Mott and Bailey. | ||
| It's named after an old-timey castle structure where there would be a part that was strong and easy to defend, the Mott, and an external part that was harder to defend, the Bailey. | ||
| The rhetorical strategy mirrors this structure where somebody has a position that's very easy to defend, in this case that Ray Epps said that he wanted people to go into the Capitol, and a much more difficult case to defend, in this case that Ray Epps was an agent provocateur working for the government or some other organization to entrap. | ||
| Trump supporters. | ||
| In terms of the castles, when the Bailey came under attack, people would retreat to the Mott because it was fortified and would stand up to attack better, and this is what you see a lot of folks do in argumentation. | ||
| The idea that Ray Epps is a Fed is a very difficult position to defend, so in order to support his position, Darren retreats to the more easy-to-defend position that Epps said that he wanted people to go into the Capitol. | ||
| It doesn't prove his point, but it forces agreement between himself and the person he's arguing with, and if people aren't paying attention to this, it can be a pretty effective strategy. | ||
| So my question to these people, then, would be, if the government is doing all this undercover Fed infiltration stuff, why don't you join them? | ||
| That sounds way more fun! | ||
| That sounds way more fun than you're hanging out at a little militia thing, and you clearly want to be part of the movie aspect of this stuff, so why are you not joining the government and becoming one of those people? | ||
| Well, I think there's two points. | ||
| One, if you're talking about people like Adarin or these folks who are in the media and stuff, this shit pays a lot better. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. | ||
| Not them, for sure, not them. | ||
| If you're talking about the rank and file folks, joining the government isn't an option for them. | ||
| Because this is all make-believe. | ||
| But joining the team that is the sleuths on the case trying to get all these, Sure, I just feel like. | ||
| Being on the side of the government, there's nothing there. | ||
| I mean, I just, if you really believe that there's the chance to go and be a, like, fed undercover, if you really believe fed undercover agents are everywhere all the time, you know, inciting people, become one of them. | ||
| That'd be fun. | ||
| But you can't. | ||
| You can't. | ||
| There's nothing there. | ||
| Like, what are you going to do? | ||
| Enlist? | ||
| I think so, yeah! | ||
| I think that's what you do! | ||
| Go find a cop and be like, I want to be an agent provocateur? | ||
| Listen, okay. | ||
|
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|
What are you talking about? | |
| Here's what you do. | ||
| You start at the mailroom, like everybody does. | ||
|
unidentified
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Sure. | |
| So Darren's trapped because he has no other real evidence that Epps is a fed. | ||
| He has this recontextualized circumstantial nonsense. | ||
| So pressed on it like this, he's in trouble. | ||
| Destiny and Bed have agreed with the easy position to defend, but they still don't agree with the more difficult one. | ||
| So the next place this argument should go is Darren being forced to defend why he thinks Epps is a fed beyond all the stuff that he's already laid out. | ||
| Camo. | ||
| So... | ||
| He's tall. | ||
| And it's weird that this is where Ian jumps in to try and change the subject and throw things to Glenn. | ||
| That almost seems like him being able to tell that Darren was in trouble, and if that went on any longer, he'd be forced to say something like, it's just my opinion. | ||
| And that's basically like, I lose. | ||
| Yeah, in terms of Ian... | ||
| You know, we talked a little bit about the instability of the things that he's, the ideas that he's putting forth. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But his instincts for when to jump in in terms of a rhetorical argument. | ||
| I don't know if, I mean, obviously this would be me leaping to a conclusion I can't defend. | ||
|
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|
Sure. | |
| But I do know that he has an earpiece. | ||
| Towards the end of this, he says that the producers are telling him that they need to go to the questions. | ||
| So he is getting at least some kind of a production note. | ||
| And I don't think it's impossible that someone's like, jump in, jump in. | ||
| But I don't know that that's the case. | ||
| And for me to say that's what's happening would be a little conspiracy-ish of me. | ||
| But I don't think it's outside the realm of possible. | ||
| I mean, based upon the combination of what we know of Ian being working with Tim Pool and some of the things he said, it sounds plausible that there's somebody in his ear. | ||
|
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|
I'll throw that out. | |
| There is definitely someone in his ear, but with their saying that stuff, I have no idea. | ||
| But it does start to add up the number of times that he seems to jump in, particularly when Darren or Alex is particularly out of sorts. | ||
| So Glenn comes in, and he has some thoughts on informants. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Yeah, Glenn has been very patient. | ||
| Uh-oh. | ||
| That's so funny. | ||
| What's happening, dude? | ||
| Well, I just, I mean, I only heard the last four minutes of the conversation, but I'm still always amazed by, I really don't understand the argument because the FBI and the U.S. security state before January 6th was saying that they regard... | ||
| The greatest threat to national security, not as being ISIS or Al-Qaeda or Hamas or Hezbollah or China or any other foreign threat. | ||
| They regard the greatest threat as being right-wing domestic extremists, in whom that was included on many lists, the Oath Keepers, the Three Percenters, and all of the people in the groups that they said orchestrated January 6th. | ||
| Is the argument that you think that the FBI Was not monitoring and infiltrating those groups because there's actually a ton of evidence that the FBI Had their hooks in all three of those groups. | ||
| And not only had their hooks in them, but on January 6th had informants on the ground who were pretending to be Trump supporters who were talking in real time to the FBI about everything that was happening. | ||
| So I just want to understand what the claim is. | ||
| The claim that the FBI was not involved in the groups that organized January 6th and didn't have informants with them that day? | ||
| No, it is not. | ||
| They weren't instigated. | ||
| That's your claim. | ||
| It came out that the vice president of the Oath Keepers was an FBI informant. | ||
| The Proud Boys had at least three and as many as eight, and the New York Times itself reported that there were FBI informants and the Proud Boys who were inside the Capitol texting their handlers as the event unfolded. | ||
| So Glenn's point is fair enough, but it still doesn't prove anything. | ||
| You could have a hundred informants inside a giant organization that is like the Proud Boys and still not have anyone who was in the upper levels of the group who were in the private messaging groups that were planning for the sixth. | ||
| And it is true that Greg McWordier, the VP of the Oath Keepers, was an informant, but we don't know what he informed about or the length of his existence in this role. | ||
| It's possible that he gave warnings that went unheeded, but we don't know that. | ||
| It's not clear. | ||
| So what is clear is that there are records of Stuart Rhodes and other Oath Keepers who aren't informants actively planning what they were going to do. | ||
| Another thing that is clear is that for over a decade on Alex's show, Stuart has been begging for the chance to try to overthrow the government, and he didn't need anyone to trick him into doing any of that shit. | ||
| I mean, we've heard him say so many times, I want to violently overthrow the government. | ||
| Yes, I want to be made head of my own military. | ||
| I mean, it's literally the one thing that I genuinely... | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But here again, you have Glenn performing an attempt at the same type of sleight of hand that Beatty used earlier. | ||
| He has an undeniable position, which is that there were informants inside the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys, but the real argument that he's making is that the informants are actually the ones who caused January 6th, which is unsupported. | ||
| When the unsupported argument Glenn is making gets challenged, he retreats to the safety of the undisputable argument that there were informants. | ||
| And that's a lot of the shell game that's going on in terms of these arguments, and you can't get anywhere with it. | ||
| Here's one thing that I truly love that just popped into my head. | ||
| There are FBI agents. | ||
| There's two FBI agents. | ||
| Uh, buddies. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Probably go out drinking. | ||
| One of them an Oath Keepers informant. | ||
| The other one a Proud Boys informant. | ||
| And the Proud Boys guy just must have been like, man, I had to do the fucking cereal thing. | ||
| I had to do all this shit. | ||
| And the Oath Keepers guy was just like, I look cooler than you! | ||
| That's it. | ||
| Which one of them is Johnny Utah. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Like, it is, like, can you imagine? | ||
| Isn't that his name? | ||
| Uh, yes. | ||
| Point Break? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah. | |
| Okay. | ||
| Uh, the, the... | ||
| I went through the FBI. | ||
| I'm in the whole thing. | ||
| I'm a special agent. | ||
| All right. | ||
| We're going to hit you while you name cereals. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That's, you know... | ||
| I think they might weed out feds by people who are too good at naming cereals. | ||
| Wait a second. | ||
| This dude's gotten into multi-meal? | ||
| Come on, man! | ||
| And if you say something like Weedabix, they're like... | ||
| Do you work for the Crown? | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Hobnobs? | ||
| That's not serious. | ||
| So, Bed tries to get to the point here and ask Darren if Epps was a Fed. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Good question. | ||
| Because you've got to get to the heart of the matter. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| I'm just confused. | ||
| So, you're saying that Ray Epps was actually a federal agent. | ||
| Who was indicted, who pled guilty, and is likely going to get six months in prison? | ||
| Is that your argument? | ||
| Well, the New York Times protected me. | ||
| Wait, wait, wait. | ||
| About Epps, you know, so a couple of things there. | ||
| You don't find it a little bit strange. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Wait, wait, wait. | |
| I'll get to it. | ||
| I promise you. | ||
| But let's just consider... | ||
| The reason Jordan laughed is because we both twirled a pen. | ||
| Uninvited, both of us, simultaneously. | ||
| You just needed to. | ||
| His voice just does it. | ||
| You just needed to. | ||
| The context. | ||
| The context in the immediate aftermath of January 6th, by the words of Steve Sherwin, who is in charge of the prosecution. | ||
| Their posture was one of quote-unquote shock and awe. | ||
| They were going after everyone. | ||
| They were hitting them very hard. | ||
| Now again, think about central casting. | ||
| On paper, Ray Epps, he's the 6 '3", former Marine, in camouflage gear with a Trump hat, the only guy caught on video as early as the 5th telling people to go into the Capitol, who's there on the 6th directing people to the Capitol, who's right there pre-positioned at that initial... | ||
| Breach phase. | ||
| And this... | ||
| Helping Ram signs. | ||
| Helping Ram signs. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And he happens to be a former head of the Oath Keepers. | ||
| And you're not telling me it's bizarre? | ||
| Wait a second. | ||
| You're not telling me it's at least a little bit bizarre that of all January 6th participants, he's the only one who gets a New York Times puff piece. | ||
| He's the only one who gets a 60 Minutes sympathy segment. | ||
| He's the only one that Adam Kinzinger will defend. | ||
| So are you saying that New York Times is now working with the feds, working with Ray Epps? | ||
| Yes. | ||
|
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|
What did you think he was going to say? | |
| Why did they say there were WMDs in Iraq? | ||
| So going back. | ||
| Why did they write those articles? | ||
| Why don't you say that part? | ||
| I want to address your question directly. | ||
| You're saying if he were an asset, and by the way, I'm not... | ||
| Definitive in the sense that, oh, I don't think he was working directly for the FBI. | ||
| I don't even know if he was directly working for the federal government. | ||
| He was an asset. | ||
| He was acting on behalf of a third party. | ||
| He was not an authentic actor on that day. | ||
| That I will say with a great deal of obviously. | ||
| But wait a second. | ||
| Let me say one thing. | ||
| I've been gone for 10 minutes. | ||
| So here, Bed is asking a direct question that cuts to the core of the undefended argument that Beatty is making. | ||
| In response, he does what you'd expect. | ||
| He retreats to the safer territory of all of these talking points that don't actually support his argument, but you can't really dispute. | ||
| Oh, you're saying it wasn't 6-3? | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| So he lays out all this shit that doesn't amount to anything in terms of his argument. | ||
| Then he says, don't you think it's weird that he's the one who gets a New York Times puff piece? | ||
| And Destiny is pretty right on there. | ||
| Why did he get that puff piece? | ||
| So there's two possible answers. | ||
| One is because you guys chose him to be special by demonizing him. | ||
| And the other that Darren definitely doesn't want to touch is that... | ||
| Some of those buff pieces happened because they made him a giant scapegoat for January 6th, and it's led to his family being terrorized, so he sued Fox News. | ||
| That's why a lot of the media attention that exists recently has been there. | ||
| They're giving him some sort of special treatment, and maybe... | ||
| Maybe some other January 6th participants don't get that same treatment. | ||
| He's getting special treatment because Darren chose to make him special with a propaganda attack. | ||
| But because this whole thing has been challenged and Darren's entire shtick boils down to don't you think it's weird level statements, he's forced to moderate his stance to now being that he doesn't know if he's a federal informant for the government, but just that he was an agent of some unknown, unnamed third party. | ||
| This argument that Darren is making amounts to less than nothing, and he's said that, like... | ||
| You know who I think it is? | ||
| The Milwaukee Bucks. | ||
| Chooses this specific group of people to do this specific type of action on. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Spectre? | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| It's not like ISIS. | ||
| ISIS isn't infiltrating fucking the MAGA movement. | ||
| Who's your big bad if it's not the government? | ||
| I think probably Dr. Doom. | ||
| Okay, I'll take that one. | ||
| Also, I get what you're saying, like, oh, why is the biggest threat the FBI thing? | ||
| Why isn't it China or anything? | ||
| It's like, there's oceans. | ||
| There's oceans. | ||
| Do you know why they're the biggest threat? | ||
| They're right next door. | ||
| Right, and it's not like the government doesn't... | ||
| Acknowledge the ways in which geopolitically China is in somewhat of an adversarial posture with us. | ||
| The economic difficulties that result between the two countries. | ||
| Competition itself. | ||
| But in terms of domestic extremism, the country of China is not necessarily... | ||
| What, are they going to send a boat? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Or, yeah. | ||
| It's a little much. | ||
| There's a Chinese warship off the coast of San Francisco. | ||
| Oh, shit. | ||
| What? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Well, no, I mean, like, you know, when COVID was happening, Mike Adams said that it was part of preparing for a Chinese land invasion. | ||
| Oh, my God. | ||
| So, like, I mean, that definitely was on Infowars for a while. | ||
| Seriously. | ||
| Somebody try a land invasion just so we don't have to deal with anybody ever thinking it makes any sense ever again. | ||
| I don't think it's going to happen. | ||
|
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|
No. | |
| So it's a little frustrating here because Destiny's response of, like, why did they get those puff pieces? | ||
| It's exactly the right next thing to say, and you see how it's pretty easily deflected. | ||
|
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|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| Anyone watching this who likes Alex and Darren, they wouldn't even have registered that as something to check into. | ||
| Nope. | ||
| So Alex is back, and they deal with the issue of, like, why did he get prosecuted if he's a fed? | ||
| I'll take this one. | ||
| Hey, Darren, sit down, nerd. | ||
| Let me say one thing. | ||
| I've been gone for 10 minutes. | ||
| It's a victory. | ||
| They went from saying he's an angel, CNN, MSNBC, New York Times. | ||
| He's perfectly now. | ||
| But there's a pressure. | ||
| Alex, quick thing on that. | ||
| The criminal complaint acknowledges that he engaged in quote-unquote felonious behavior. | ||
| But among the mitigating factors that they cite is, oh, this poor guy was a victim of all these. | ||
| Conspiracy theories is pretty remarkable. | ||
| Well, he was, though. | ||
| He was. | ||
| He absolutely was. | ||
| Why don't you answer me? | ||
| Why were people writing? | ||
| I want to just quickly answer the question about your question, basically, if he was an asset, why did they go after their own asset? | ||
| Why would they indict their own asset? | ||
| That happens all the time. | ||
| In fact, that's almost the norm that ultimately when the assets... | ||
| When they have undercover people, they'll indict them just as a cover. | ||
| When the assets become... | ||
| Are you helping now? | ||
| They indict them. | ||
| So this is just a load of fun storytelling that doesn't really relate to the circumstances and reality at all. | ||
| Darren's still dodging the question Destiny's posing of why... | ||
| The New York Times and others are writing pieces about Ray Epps, which is obviously because he's suing Fox News for defamation, a large part of which is Tucker's coverage of Epps, most of which featured Darren Beattie as a guest. | ||
| Probably doesn't want to talk about that. | ||
| Returning to the question of if he's an asset, then why did they indict him? | ||
| By saying people do that all the time, if that's your rebuttal, that isn't actually helping us get any further towards making a case. | ||
| The people making the claim have the responsibility of backing it up, and in this case, it's Alex and Darren clearly saying that Epps is a Fed, or I guess now that he's an agent of a mysterious third party. | ||
| Saying they indict agents all the time is a dodge to Ben's question, but it doesn't get anywhere closer to showing that Epps is or isn't an agent, but it kind of feels like it does. | ||
| Also, if it's a person who's an agent of a third party, what relationship... | ||
| Why would the government give them special treatment? | ||
| Who knows? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I mean, are they contractors? | ||
| Maybe. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So this is like what a lot of this debate boils down to, particularly for Darren. | ||
| It's a lot of stuff that means nothing and doesn't have a point, but kind of feels like it does. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| A lot of feelings of like, isn't it weird? | ||
| What I find interesting is that they count it as a win. | ||
| When they make irrelevant information equal. | ||
| If that makes sense. | ||
| You know, like, whenever Darren Beatty can be like, ha ha, we're both making irrelevant points. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Beatty counts that as a win. | ||
| Yeah, well, I mean, like, if you have, um, you know, Bed saying, uh, hey, why did they indict him if he's a Fed? | ||
| And Darren's argument back is, that happens all the time. | ||
| Who cares? | ||
| That only proves that it is possible. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That he could be indicted and still be a Fed. | ||
| It doesn't prove that he is. | ||
| Which we already knew it was possible. | ||
| It's in the hypothetical realm of possibilities. | ||
| Great. | ||
| Congratulations. | ||
| So both of you have said a neutral non-statement, but Beatty takes that as having implied that he's the victor. | ||
| Yeah, of course. | ||
| Bananas. | ||
| Yeah, because... | ||
| Unfair. | ||
| Well, it's not that they both said nothing, because Bed is at least asking a question. | ||
| Sure, sure. | ||
| That would, in theory, lead to more information being discussed. | ||
|
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|
Theoretically. | |
| BD treats it as a win because he's dodged that. | ||
|
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|
Sure. | |
| That's why he treats it as a win. | ||
| Well, right, but I mean, yeah, yeah. | ||
| So anyway, Bed brings up the lawsuit because basically it's like, you aren't answering the question about why there's all this coverage. | ||
| It's about time we just bring it up. | ||
| You're saying that Ray Epps... | ||
| Is a federal agent... | ||
| Well, I didn't say that. | ||
| I said he was acting on behalf of a third party who was an inauthentic actor on January 6th. | ||
| Even though there's no evidence of this. | ||
| And then you're saying he's turning around and he's suing Fox News for defamation, which is going to open up... | ||
| All sorts of cans of worms with discovery that he's going to have to provide legally in front of a court. | ||
| You think that if he was a federal agent, he'd be suing Fox News for defamation? | ||
| They know they control the jurisdiction, but he did say in a text message that day during it, I orchestrated the attack. | ||
| You think he's going to sue for defamation? | ||
| He was bragging to his nephew that asked him if he was there. | ||
| And he said, I orchestrated it. | ||
| To his nephew. | ||
| To his nephew. | ||
| Why would a federal agent text such incriminating evidence to his nephew? | ||
| Why wasn't he indicted before? | ||
| We made him the centerpiece of congressional hearings. | ||
| He was all over the news. | ||
| They were forced to do it thanks to Tucker Carlson and Professor Darren Beattie's work. | ||
| Wait, wait. | ||
| Why do you trust Tucker Carlson when he said he lied to you? | ||
| Tucker Carlson said Sidney Powell was crazy. | ||
| Tucker Carlson left Fox News because he didn't believe the election fraud claims that he was being forced to push on TV because of Trump. | ||
| Why would you trust Tucker Carlson of all people? | ||
| Tucker early on thought it was wrong. | ||
| Now he says he was wrong about that. | ||
| Now he says he thinks the election was wrong. | ||
| Oh, crazy. | ||
| When the lawsuit goes away, the answers change. | ||
| Listen, whether you're right or wrong, you have a right to question the election. | ||
| No one wants to take that right from me. | ||
| So Ben clearly just realized that they were never going to Yeah. | ||
| Great answer by Alex, just saying, they know they control the jurisdiction. | ||
| And then moving on to Epps texting his nephew, which we already covered in this debate more than once. | ||
| Also, we see here the potential downside of getting involved on the side of a blustery, drunk Alex. | ||
| He's very explicitly saying that a concerted effort by Darren and Tucker, along with Alex, made Ray Epps the centerpiece of the right-wing narratives about January 6th. | ||
| If the people who are suing Fox News have any interest in adding defendants, Alex is going to have given them a nice roadmap. | ||
| Alex is in the clear since he and InfoWars are in bankruptcy, but Darren and Revolver have a fair amount to gain by not being sued here. | ||
| If I were Darren, I wouldn't be thrilled. | ||
| Destiny has a good point with Tucker, but I would just go the full mile on this one and bring up how Tucker is flat out. | ||
| I mean, I lie. | ||
| If I'm really cornered or something, I lie. | ||
| I really try not to. | ||
| I try never to lie on TV. | ||
| I just don't, you know, I don't like lying. | ||
| I certainly do it, you know, out of weakness or whatever. | ||
| Yeah, so if you lie because it's too scary or dangerous to your image to admit that you're wrong about something, you're not someone people should take too seriously. | ||
| It's a testament of how much a disaster our public information space truly is that he could say that openly on Dave Rubin's show like two years ago, and it made zero difference to his standing. | ||
| I lie for money. | ||
| See? | ||
| Everybody does that. | ||
| And boy, do I hate... | ||
| It sucks. | ||
| It sucks to be a multi-millionaire for lying to you. | ||
| God, it is rough to be forced to lie. | ||
| And when I almost faced consequences for it, I didn't. | ||
| Yeah, I think that... | ||
| Man, that guy doesn't seem cool. | ||
| He doesn't seem buff board. | ||
| He does not seem cool. | ||
| So someone else who's not cool is Glenn Greenwald, and he pops in here to condescend a little more about the FBI. | ||
| Great. | ||
| The whole context for this conversation is, again, I mean, you just keep going back to it because it's so easy to see. | ||
| People have this idea of the FBI, like, oh, they don't do this sort of thing. | ||
| Earlier, I think it was Ed who said, wait, why would the New York Times run a puppies? | ||
| Do you think they're working with the FBI? | ||
| Like, that idea to him is so different. | ||
| I didn't say that. | ||
| I didn't say that. | ||
| It was me. | ||
| No idea what the history of the FBI is in the country. | ||
| They sound the same. | ||
| No idea that the FBI throughout the entire war on terror did this over and over. | ||
| They would target and entrap all sorts of vulnerable Muslims to engage in plots that the FBI created in order to create a narrative that the FBI was needed because there was a much bigger threat of Islamic terrorism than there actually was. | ||
| The FBI has been infiltrating and then using provocateurs to encourage groups to commit crimes so that the FBI can gain more power, can spread this narrative. | ||
| Gain more power. | ||
| You have to be incredibly naive or only paying attention to the news. | ||
| By the way, if I can just add a nice little colorful detail there. | ||
| The author of the Ray Epps puff piece that asked none of the questions that would get to the core of his involvement there. | ||
| It's a total puff piece. | ||
| You can read it yourself. | ||
| Other of that, his previous work, includes the CIA-authorized account of the Sinaloa cartel. | ||
| Oh, case closed, then. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I mean, okay. | ||
| There you go. | ||
| So Glenn's correct that there are a bunch of entrapment plots that the FBI has carried out in the aftermath of 9-11 and in other circumstances throughout their history. | ||
|
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|
Yeah. | |
| That's true. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Where he gets into trouble, however, is that that doesn't mean that everything the FBI does is some kind of an elaborate plot. | ||
| There is that. | ||
| Proving or demonstrating that something could be an FBI plot because they've done some plots in the past is not the same thing that proving something is. | ||
| All that anyone on Glenn, Darren, or Alex's side is really able to substantially demonstrate is that it's possible that their conspiracy theories are true. | ||
| They can't prove them, and they have no proof to offer, but they could be true for all sorts of reasons. | ||
| The FBI has pulled entrapment plots in the past, even though I thought Darren and Alex were trying to avoid saying the federal government because they were scared to answer that question earlier, so they're not... | ||
| Here's the thing, though. | ||
| Destiny in bed showed up for the debate, which is essentially mean... | ||
| We've already established that they think this is something that can be debated. | ||
| which is to say it's possible that Alex's side is right. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
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|
They disagree, but they wouldn't debate something that they don't think is even in the realm of being possible because someone who believes something that is not in the realm of possibility is, by definition, irrational and beyond argument. | |
| Yes. | ||
|
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|
The right-wing side here needs to cut the bullshit and actually provide some actual meat, as opposed to this it-could-happen level speculation. | |
| It's all dismissible by saying it could happen, but you haven't given me any reason to think it did happen. | ||
| That's what their argument lives or dies by, proving that it did happen, not that it could. | ||
| And that's just an essential failure that will not be. | ||
|
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|
Yeah, yeah. | |
| I would say that if you were going to bring up the FBI's track record as evidence they're framing conservative lunatics, barking up the wrong government agency for that one. | ||
| FBI famous, uh... | ||
| Anti! | ||
| We'll get into a little bit of an academic analysis of that down the road here as the thing goes on. | ||
| But yeah, there's a bit of a trend they have. | ||
| So Alex... | ||
| J. Edgar Hoover was at J6, just to be clear. | ||
| He was there. | ||
| So Alex was drinking while they talked about Ray Epps the first time. | ||
| And so Alex decides to get into Ray Epps. | ||
| Great! | ||
| My God. | ||
| The man is like a chicken with his head cut off for three days, including the day of the event, running around saying, go in the Capitol. | ||
| He's ramming signs into people. | ||
| He testifies, I orchestrated this attack. | ||
| He did not testify. | ||
| And then, there was a Jan 6th committee. | ||
| They asked about this text message and said, I did that. | ||
| Yeah, he didn't testify that he orchestrated it. | ||
| No, he testified to the Jan 6th committee. | ||
| They sent the message to his nephew. | ||
| No, he testified. | ||
| He testified. | ||
| That he orchestrated it to the Jan 6th committee? | ||
| You keep interrupting because you can't... | ||
| You're not telling the truth. | ||
| I'm Michael Jordan slamming on you. | ||
| And what's going to happen is, everybody's going to get this clip. | ||
| He testified to the Jan 6th committee. | ||
| They said, is this your text message? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| He said, yes. | ||
| I told my nephew. | ||
| I orchestrated it. | ||
| Now stop. | ||
| Let me finish my point. | ||
| Thank you for being honest with me. | ||
| That was unnecessary. | ||
| That was unnecessary. | ||
| I applaud it. | ||
| He testified that he said to his nephew that he said that. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| In a text message. | ||
| And he did orchestrate it. | ||
| He did testify. | ||
| So the point is he's acting like my victory is a failure. | ||
| Where's the evidence that he orchestrated it? | ||
| I'd love to see that. | ||
| He said it! | ||
| Open and shut, baby! | ||
| I catch my friends things all the time that are embellishments. | ||
| Let me finish my point. | ||
| They're all over every major corporate channel saying this poor little baby. | ||
| They're saying he was a fed or an operative or a provocateur for some NGO. | ||
| He didn't do anything wrong. | ||
| And when it got so obvious, they finally indicted him with a slap on the wrist. | ||
| And then you're sitting here saying he didn't testify. | ||
| He just testified. | ||
| Whoa! | ||
| No, he said he didn't testify that he orchestrated it. | ||
| He testified that he sent that text to his nephew. | ||
| Then he orchestrated it! | ||
|
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|
Alex, then they asked him if he actually orchestrated it. | |
| What was his answer? | ||
| In the transcript, he said... | ||
| It wasn't that he orchestrated. | ||
| So if I send somebody a message saying a bank is robbed, I rob the bank. | ||
| Have you ever embellished a text message to anybody that you know? | ||
| Like you. | ||
| Maybe not. | ||
| Maybe not you. | ||
| I can't see you doing that, but maybe. | ||
| Actually, I'm kind of an understanding. | ||
| So Alex is kind of too drunk and has no comprehension skills, so he can't even really track the things that were being said to him. | ||
| I was going to say, yeah. | ||
| He was saying, or at least speaking in a way designed to heavily imply that Ray Epps testified at the J6 committee that he orchestrated the events that day. | ||
|
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|
Right. | |
| Destiny and Bed are trying desperately to clarify that Epps testified that he sent that text to his nephew, but not that he orchestrated the riots. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Alex is either unable or unwilling to recognize the distinction, and thus we get this exchange where both parties think they scored a dunk. | ||
| But Alex brings up how honest everything must be in texts, and it'd be a real shame if someone were to be able to review his text messages. | ||
| Shame that's not possible. | ||
| Yeah, I imagine that there was nobody on this planet who has a shit ton of Alex's text messages. | ||
| So if we assume that Alex is right, and people never talk shit and just say things in their text messages... | ||
| Right. | ||
| I wonder what this exchange with Eddie Bravo tells us. | ||
| Interesting. | ||
| So Eddie tells him, quote, It's awesome you're having an open mind about this realm we live on. | ||
| So much scientific evidence, we are not on a ball shooting through space. | ||
| If you want to debate on your show, three scientists versus three of my top flat earthers, I can set it up. | ||
| It would break the internet. | ||
| It would. | ||
| Alex replies, yes! | ||
| Exclamation point. | ||
| Let's do it! | ||
| Exclamation point. | ||
| The Hubble video blew me away. | ||
| Oh my god. | ||
| Eddie replies, quote, Hubble fake as fuck. | ||
| All from the airplane Sophia. | ||
| Alex replies, quote, yes, it's proven. | ||
| A little bit later, Eddie says, quote, zero proof the sun is 93 million miles away. | ||
| It's super close. | ||
| Maybe 3,000 miles up. | ||
| If the ISS is supposedly 250 miles up, then the sun being 3,000 miles up makes sense. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Alex replies, quote, yes. | ||
| Who knows? | ||
| What we do know is they're working for somebody really evil. | ||
| Wait, I'm sorry? | ||
| Eddie says, quote, look into the fake moon mission now with your new eyes. | ||
| If you do that debate on your show to protect your credibility, make it clear you're not a flat earther, but you're open to hearing it out. | ||
| Alex says, quote, yes, I want to. | ||
| They're hiding something. | ||
| A couple weeks later, Alex sent a flat earther video to Mike Adams and said, quote, how do you disprove this? | ||
| I know you can. | ||
| I know the flat earth stuff is bull. | ||
| I know you can't. | ||
| I know the flat earth stuff is bull. | ||
| It's just spreading. | ||
| Oh my god. | ||
| I guess sometimes we're not really honest in text messages and we kind of just talk shit to bond with and impress the people in our lives. | ||
| Like Ray Epps did with his nephew and Alex did with Eddie Bravo. | ||
| So, cut the shit. | ||
| I do think that there is actually something deeply true and large within Alex texting something like... | ||
| How do you disprove this? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I know you can. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You know, like, that yearning of just, like, I am aware of what it is I am supposed to do. | ||
| And I can't. | ||
| I cannot do it. | ||
| I can't do this. | ||
| And I'm scared a little bit that Eddie's right. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| No, this true, like, weakness in a man of, like... | ||
| I don't fundamentally understand anything. | ||
|
unidentified
|
How do you disprove Flat Earth? | |
| Do this for me so I can ignore Eddie's request to have a Flat Earth debate. | ||
| So, Bed tries to take things a little bit of a different direction and asks, what charges should Ray Epps have gotten if what you want to be is true? | ||
| You guys are indefensible. | ||
| My question is, what should Ray Epps have been charged with? | ||
| What law did he break that instead of what he was charged with, I think, was obstructing the proceeding? | ||
| Let me respond. | ||
| No, he was not charged with that. | ||
| That's the interesting thing. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Aha! | |
| He was not charged with obstruction of an official proceeding, which would have been a very easy charge and a fairly... | ||
| Shut up, Bert. | ||
| You're on my TV. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| So, wait, wait. | ||
| Let me answer this comprehensively. | ||
| So, first of all... | ||
| It's extremely strange, given how conspicuous and egregious and concentrated his behavior was, that he somehow was able to avoid the obstruction of official proceeding charge, number one. | ||
| Number two, there are even more serious charges they could have given him. | ||
| In fact, in the series of videos that we put out, there's one specific exchange he had with another guy. | ||
| He said, when we go in... | ||
| Leave this here. | ||
| We don't want to get shot. | ||
| When we go in, leave this here, he's referring to that individual's bear spray. | ||
| That individual ends up going into the Capitol, committing violence, and doing a whole bunch of other things. | ||
| And this is a bizarre case because this guy, who is super egregious, has to this day... | ||
| Not fully been charged. | ||
| His case hasn't even gone to a district judge yet. | ||
| So let me give you a sense. | ||
| Let me give you a sense. | ||
| Because when we're evaluating these things, we have to compare them to standards applied to others. | ||
| Oh, let me stop you. | ||
| You'll go next. | ||
| Oh, Schroer. | ||
| I've known him eight years. | ||
| He's a badass guy that helps disabled children. | ||
| I want to bottle that feeling. | ||
| A super good person. | ||
| You can. | ||
| It's called booze. | ||
| You can bottle it. | ||
| You can get it at any liquor store. | ||
| That dude cannot just shut the fuck up and let his weirdo friend field the question. | ||
| No, it's so important to throw Owen's dumbass into the center stage. | ||
| Amazing. | ||
| So Darren's not answering the question here because it's likely that if he staked a firm position, it could bite him in the ass later. | ||
| So this becomes a game of, well, what about this thing? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It just doesn't really connect to finding any real answers. | ||
| Darren is right here, though, that Epps was charged with disorderly conduct, not disrupting the proceeding. | ||
| A likely part of this was that he was already on his way home to the hotel when the proceeding was actually disrupted, and because he was cooperative and pled guilty, So Darren doesn't specifically name the other person who Ray Epps is talking to in | ||
| that Leave This Here video. | ||
| And no matter where you look, I can't find anybody saying what his name is, which is weird. | ||
| So I watched that video, and Darren is saying that the guy, you know, Darren says that he's being told to leave his bear mace, but there's nothing of that sort on screen. | ||
| This is assumed that... | ||
| I've heard other people assume that maybe it was a club, but it could also just be the guy's bullhorn. | ||
| He's talking to a bullhorn. | ||
| There's no support to make a definitive claim but what Ray Epps was saying to leave behind. | ||
| To stake the position it was Bear Mace is strange. | ||
| So I went through a ton of charging documents and the FBI's page of folks who were arrested or of interest in the events of January 6th. | ||
| It took forever, but I think I figured out who the guy is. | ||
| He's wearing a fairly distinctive red and black plaid shirt and black hood. | ||
| His face is not visible in the video with Epps, so it's kind of hard to say for sure, but there's one other reason that I think I figured out who the guy is. | ||
| The person in the video has a bit of an accent, and I think that it comes from Philly. | ||
| I think it's a Philly accent. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| And this guy who was wearing the red and black plaid shirt and has the same sort of body type is from Pennsylvania. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| He's from the middle of Pennsylvania, but that's a little Philly. | ||
| That's, I mean, okay, we'll see. | ||
| The person that I have a suspicion is who Darren is talking about is a guy named Marshall Neif, and he didn't have bear mace. | ||
| But the problem with this theory is that Darren says that the guy hasn't even gone to a district judge, but Neif entered a plea agreement in March 2022. | ||
| And was sentenced to 41 months in prison that September. | ||
| So I can't say, because Darren pretends to know who this person is, but doesn't say a name, and just gives vague details. | ||
| But if that's who he was talking about, that case is in no way comparable to Epps. | ||
| He went into the Capitol, assaulted an officer, and there's a long track record of him planning with his friend, who he was also charged with actions in D.C. They wanted to, like, they hoped to start a war. | ||
| They hoped a war would start. | ||
| I don't know for sure if this is the right person, but if it is, These actions aren't comparable, so the charges are not a reasonable standard to compare these two. | ||
| We may never know what was going to play out, because Alex had to butt in there to complain about Owen Troyer. | ||
| We may never get an answer of who this person was, because Alex had to... | ||
| You're next. | ||
| I'm going to interrupt you. | ||
| Yep, yeah, man. | ||
| I've got to talk about community service for a little bit. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Wow. | |
| Yeah, see, this is still one of those things where it's like... | ||
| I feel like we've gotten into a conversation about a detail that is largely irrelevant to the point that we're talking about. | ||
| Like, again, the courts are in on it. | ||
| It doesn't matter what charges they bring. | ||
| They could bring any charges. | ||
| They could bring I-don't-like-you-today charges. | ||
| The courts are in on it. | ||
| That can no longer matter. | ||
| But the question's being asked by the party that doesn't think that. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| That's why there's that disconnect. | ||
| Right, but the idea of that question is to point out that it doesn't matter, but continuing to talk about it means nothing. | ||
| Well, I don't know if I fully agree with you, but I do agree that they are dealing with a topical thing instead of under the surface. | ||
| The problem that actually underlies their disagreement is not getting anywhere near dealt with. | ||
| Yeah, not even close. | ||
| But Owen's... | ||
| What about Owen? | ||
| What about Owen? | ||
| How is Owen doing? | ||
| Is he still on the air? | ||
| Yeah, he's doing the war room. | ||
| Damn. | ||
| Doing good. | ||
| Big beard. | ||
| Doing good. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Shut up. | |
| He is with me. | ||
| Saying, don't go in. | ||
| They charge him, and in the charging documents say, Owen's lying. | ||
| He doesn't work for InfoWars. | ||
| That's in the charging documents, the sentencing documents. | ||
| The judge says, I'm putting you in these months in federal prison because you just questioned the election again and gave three examples of what he did. | ||
| So Owen spends months in a federal prison. | ||
| Why don't he talk about the deferred agreement that he had in 2019? | ||
| Code Pink runs around in protesting. | ||
| He put tape over his mouth when they were letting leftists run around and throw red paint in Congress, and they said, "Sir, you can't do that." And he agreed that he wouldn't do it, and he didn't. | ||
| And then he didn't protest. | ||
| He went there to cover it as a journalist. | ||
| He was in a restricted area, though. | ||
| No, he was... | ||
| Listen. | ||
| Ray Epps is not... | ||
| Listen, listen. | ||
| Owen is there with me saying, "Don't go in." He agreed he would not protest. | ||
| He was there saying, "Don't go in the Capitol," and you're not gonna defend him going to prison. | ||
| But he pled guilty to... | ||
| Everything that he got charged with. | ||
| Because it's a rigged D.C. court. | ||
| There we go. | ||
| Oh, you laugh because that happened to you yet. | ||
| It's funny because the problem is on our side. | ||
| We've got testimony under oath. | ||
| We've got judicial rulings. | ||
| We've got jury trials. | ||
| We've got full videos. | ||
| Everybody's got the video on. | ||
| We have all of these pieces of evidence. | ||
| I can't finish a single statement. | ||
| No, you can't. | ||
| Let me tell you something. | ||
| Our reporter deserves to go to jail for being there and trying to keep going in the building. | ||
| He had a deferment. | ||
| He pled guilty. | ||
| He did it. | ||
| What do you do in a rigged D.C. court? | ||
| Fight your case. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| Innocent fight. | ||
| If you have evidence that you're innocent, fight. | ||
| But there was no evidence because he broke the agreement that he signed, and then he pled guilty and said, I broke the agreement that I signed, and agreed to the sentencing guy. | ||
| And Trump should be able to run for office. | ||
| Okay. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| So we got constant just deflection, deflection, deflection, deflection. | ||
| And it just, Alex can't keep up. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And I think that, I mean, this cuts to your issue of the courts. | ||
| Like, eventually, you make enough rebuttals to Alex's point, and it'll just be like, nothing is real! | ||
| Exactly! | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| It's just a matter of, like, chipping away at the deflections until you get to him being like, nothing is real, you can't trust anything. | ||
| Yeah, eventually he grabs his ball and he says, I'm going to go home. | ||
| Right, but there will be layers of fake argument before that. | ||
| That's what I'm saying. | ||
| Yeah, it's a little annoying. | ||
| So Destiny is trying to make the point here that Alex is actually arguing in favor of insurrection. | ||
| If you don't believe that the courts are even possible to have any of your shit in, then you're actually arguing for overthrowing. | ||
| Yes! | ||
| And Alex doesn't really... | ||
| How do you not... | ||
| I don't understand that! | ||
| I mean he might understand it but he doesn't engage. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| This entire argument has been you, again, arguing for an insurrection, for rebellion. | ||
| All we have, everything we have over here is actual testimony under oath, actual judicial rulings, actual rulings by judges, actual rulings by Supreme Court. | ||
| We can provide these arguments. | ||
| We can provide the evidence. | ||
| We can provide the testimony. | ||
| And all you do is go, oh, well, I don't trust the courts. | ||
| Oh, well, I don't trust statements made under oath. | ||
| Oh, well, hasn't the FBI done this in the past? | ||
| You can skirt by providing hard evidence. | ||
| I've got to be able to finish one thing. | ||
| You can skirt by on providing any hard evidence for literally a single claim that you've made today. | ||
| There hasn't been any evidence provided to support any of the claims made today. | ||
| And you are hand-brushing away every single other claim that's made by people that were loyal to Trump, by people that Trump trusted over and over and over again. | ||
| And at the end of the day, what could you possibly be advocating for besides an insurrection? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I can't even finish a thing. | |
| I think it's because when I talk, you get really afraid. | ||
| I appreciate that. | ||
| You just said, when I defended Owen, you just said, here you are advocating for insurrection again. | ||
| Exact quote. | ||
| A guy saying, don't go in the Capitol as a reporter, and you don't even stand up for the First Amendment. | ||
| Do you trust the courts? | ||
| See, this is, again, Alex, not being able to track a thought. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| And some of it is maybe convenient that he can't track a thought, because... | ||
| Actually understanding the point that Destiny is making would be kind of difficult for him to get around. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And that is further clarified. | ||
| Destiny tries to clarify that. | ||
| At the end of that clip, he says, do you not trust the courts? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And so he tries to get to the nub here. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Do you trust the courts? | ||
| I don't think most Americans do. | ||
| That's when you have real revolution. | ||
| Okay, if you don't trust the real revolution, what do you do in a real revolution? | ||
| There you go. | ||
| Hey, listen, we're not trying to go there right now. | ||
| We are there right now. | ||
| It's January 6th. | ||
| If there was any time to go there, don't touch me. | ||
| If there is one, where would you... | ||
| Don't touch me. | ||
| Sure, we'll see, okay? | ||
| Where is the... | ||
| Didn't like four people dying on January 6th from obesity and meth? | ||
| If these are the people we have to fight, I think we'll be okay. | ||
| Oh, Ashley Babbitt, you're dehumanizing her? | ||
| Was she on meth? | ||
| I don't think she was one of the four that died from meth. | ||
| She definitely gunshot. | ||
| Did she deserve to be shot? | ||
| She was trying to climb into an area where federal agents were saying, if you climb in here, I'm going to shoot you. | ||
| Federal guards? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Do federal agents not have the right to shoot people? | |
| If I was one of the federal agents there and I thought it was a fair way to do so, yeah. | ||
| Their job is to protect the people inside. | ||
| Do I like that? | ||
| No, you guys were the ones cheering on the other side of that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You guys were cheering for it the entire time. | |
| I want to know, what do we do if we don't trust the court? | ||
| We don't trust the president. | ||
| Does Julian Assange deserve to be in prison? | ||
| I'm not here to talk about Julian Assange or the rest of your friends, okay? | ||
| Tell me, what do we do if we don't trust... | ||
| There's a reason he won't answer the question. | ||
| The reason why is because he answered rebellion and insurrection. | ||
| There's a reason why they marched. | ||
| We are going to get back to... | ||
| Okay, so we get the god mic, Ian, chiming in because... | ||
| There's nowhere for Alex to go. | ||
| There is not another angle. | ||
| And Alex, I mean, maybe he could probably come up with a couple more deflections or something. | ||
| But it seems like Destiny is pretty much like, you know, a dog with a bone here. | ||
| I'm going to hold on to this. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You guys want a revolution. | ||
| Right. | ||
| That's what you want. | ||
| And then you tried. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And so many of the arguments that you're making about January 6th are excusing the fact that you wanted a revolution and overthrow. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Okay, so here's why I struggle with this entire thing from the jump. | ||
| Right. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Is that fundamentally, before we even get to what the definition or the conversation is, the motivation behind their position is to make it happen again. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| At all costs. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Which means lying. | ||
| Well, I think so. | ||
| You can't do... | ||
| Okay, I mean, what are they going to say? | ||
| Okay, here's why we're not going to tell you the truth about how that was an insurrection, is because if we say it was an insurrection, then we won't get to try next time. | ||
| Whereas if I lie about it, then maybe people will forget for a while, and then we'll get another crack at it. | ||
| Yeah, but I mean, that's kind of the entire MO of Alex Carling, all sorts of, you know, acts of... | ||
| Right wing terrorism, false flags. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Yeah, you excuse things, you try to make it look like, oh, that's not really real, in order to provide cover for and facilitate future acts of the variety. | ||
| Here is my evidence that it is an insurrection. | ||
| You are telling me it's not. | ||
| I mean, that wouldn't hold up in court, but I emotionally understand what you're saying. | ||
| Like, the only reason to tell me it's not an insurrection is so you can do it again. | ||
| Or so you don't face consequences for doing it. | ||
| Or you can keep monetizing it. | ||
| Exactly! | ||
| So, Ray Epps apparently is way worse than Rambo, Joe Biggs, or Stuart Rhodes. | ||
| Way worse. | ||
| Way worse. | ||
| There's a far more serious conspiracy charge that the government had available to them if we use the standards that they've applied in similar January 6th cases. | ||
| He was way worse than Joe Biggs or Stuart Rhodes. | ||
| I mean, he's literally... | ||
| We're Stuart Rhodes saying invade the Capitol. | ||
| We're Stuart Rhodes attacking people or ramming signs. | ||
| Ray Epps did that. | ||
| I mean, that's literally on your show. | ||
| He literally said that if Trump doesn't impose the Insurrection Act, that we need an insurrection. | ||
| And he said, storm the Capitol. | ||
| And he went into the Capitol. | ||
| And he hurt police officers. | ||
| And he called for people to... | ||
| Joe Biggs went into the Capitol. | ||
| Either Joe Biggs or Stuart Rhodes. | ||
| Stuart Rhodes did not do that. | ||
| One of them, I forget which one it was. | ||
| Joe Biggs. | ||
| He said that. | ||
| Yeah, Joe Goddard. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, no, no. | |
| You don't even know what I'm going to say. | ||
| You're in jail. | ||
| He doesn't deserve. | ||
| You don't know what I'm going to say, though. | ||
| That's interesting. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What other sentencing guidelines does Alex have? | |
| Let me just answer really quickly. | ||
| Joe Rhodes did say that on air, and I told him he was wrong to his face, so I'm going to be honest. | ||
| Before it happened, he did say if Trump calls us out for a civil war, I was like, dude, I'm not for this on air. | ||
| Very quickly. | ||
| I agree there's a lot of rhetoric on both sides. | ||
| A lot of rhetoric. | ||
| A lot of rhetoric. | ||
| Rhetoric! | ||
| This is idiotic equivocating. | ||
| Under no metric did Ray Epps do more than Stuart Rhodes or Joe Biggs. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| I honestly am not sure what Bette is talking about with Stuart saying they should shoot people, but I definitely think that's not out of character for Stuart, so I don't know. | ||
| What interests me the most here is that Alex is having to backpedal. | ||
| He says that Joe Biggs should have a year in prison. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Why? | ||
| He's willing to concede that Stuart Rhodes said that they should take over the Capitol and then shoot people? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| That seems like a giant thing to be hand-waving away as just some talk, considering how seriously he's taking a text message Ray Epps sent his nephew. | ||
| Who among us hasn't listened to Stuart Rhodes' claim that it's okay to overthrow the government and then inspire people to do so? | ||
| And who among us has not texted our nephew a little bit of weird stuff? | ||
| I don't know exactly what Alex is even talking about, but I do know that he never disagreed with Rhodes when he laid out his plans on air. | ||
| No, absolutely not. | ||
| This clip from November 10, 2020, discussing the earlier D.C. rally, which was the culmination of Owen's dumb caravan tour. | ||
| Look, you know, just as Americans from across the country stormed up to Bundy Ranch to stand up for a rancher's family, you need to go to Washington, D.C. with the same conviction. | ||
| I was about to say, this is a commie try-com takeover with an admitted Chinese agent. | ||
| You better get your ass to D.C. folks this Saturday. | ||
| Yeah, if you don't, there'll be no more Republic. | ||
| But we're not going to let that happen. | ||
| It's not even an if. | ||
| It's either President Trump is encouraged and bolstered and strengthened to do what he must do, or we wind up in a bloody fight. | ||
| We all know that. | ||
| The fight's coming. | ||
| But he has a chance to fix this very quickly by defending the snake. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I agree. | |
| Let me ask you this. | ||
| We'll do a final segment here, then Paul Watson takes over. | ||
| Sounds like he agreed. | ||
| So Alex doesn't disagree at all with Stuart laying out exactly what they want to and plan to do. | ||
| They just didn't do it that time because time wasn't running out yet. | ||
| Trump had lost, but there was still hope that there would be an easy solution to this. | ||
| By January 6th, the inauguration was right around the corner, and if the election got certified that day, there was no other procedural way to stop Biden from taking office. | ||
| And why is that important to Stuart? | ||
| Because he's a man entirely obsessed with the idea of being in charge of his own state-sanctioned military. | ||
| He's been very consistent about this for the last decade in his appearances on Alex's show. | ||
| The belief that he was building a militia in the Oath Keepers and that they should be the state's muscle. | ||
| It wasn't relevant during the Obama years, so his focus was mostly on agitation and using civil unrest incidents to grow his ranks. | ||
| But when Trump got in, he was obsessed with the idea that Trump would call up the Oath Keepers as the real militia of the United States and he would be in charge of it. | ||
| Here's a small selection of times he talked about that on Infowars. | ||
| The President can call up the National Guard and call us up as the militia and we'll go suppress the insurrection. | ||
| So he could call forth the militia, which include the National Guard and all of us, as the militia, to suppress the insurrection. | ||
| He could call us up as the militia of the United States in the federal service right now and deploy us on the border, even if the governor of California doesn't want you to go. | ||
| The president could call us up as the unorganized militia under federal statute right now. | ||
| There's the organized militia as the National Guard, and then under federal statute, the unorganized militia as the rest of us. | ||
| And so President Trump certainly could call us up. | ||
| To go and execute the laws of the union and suppress the insurrection by the radical left and to repel the invasion down the border. | ||
| He could do all those three things by calling us up. | ||
| So even though the states have not formed militias, which they should, the president can call us up as the militia. | ||
| He can also call us up as the militia. | ||
| All of us veterans. | ||
| I was a paratrooper in the Army. | ||
| A lot of us are prior service. | ||
| We'd be happy to go down there. | ||
| So this isn't an exhaustive retelling of the times he's talked about this. | ||
| Those are not from the same day or even the same year. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Nope. | |
| Stewart understood fully well that the opportunity for him to achieve his dreams and be a big boy in charge of a real army was slipping through his fingers. | ||
| If Biden got into office, there was no chance of him getting made into the real militia of the United States without an all out civil war. | ||
| So really, January 6th was the ultimate last inflection point for him. | ||
| It's very easy to understand his actions if you understand that he's been talking about what he wants for over a decade on Alex's show. | ||
| And this was the last chance to get it. | ||
| And Alex never disagreed with Stewart. | ||
| He was right there with him, spouting pseudo-history and nonsense about his flawed understanding of the Constitution to rationalize Stewart's bloodlust and his desire for power. | ||
| But... | ||
| I think this is the fun thing, is that... | ||
| You could really claim Stewart said just about everything. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And Alex would be like, you know what? | ||
| He probably did. | ||
| Let's face it. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I mean, look, hey, that's extreme, but... | ||
| Yeah, it sounds like him. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And, hey, I loved having him on the show, and I raised a bunch of money for him, and the Oath Keepers wouldn't exist without their exposure early days on InfoWars. | ||
| I basically facilitated the creation of this group. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| But, yeah, man, that guy was fucked up. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Yeah, I do find it interesting how it seems impossible for people to take a lot of these people, or a lot of people at their word, whenever they go like... | ||
| I want something, repeatedly. | ||
| And then they try and get it. | ||
| People are like, why could they possibly have done this? | ||
| I think a lot of people just never listen to InfoWars. | ||
| Well, that's fair. | ||
| So, Bed has an interesting point here, and that is that they keep going back to this thing about Ray App sending a text message. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| But what about all the Proud Boys and Oath Keeper text messages? | ||
| Yeah, I've never seen any of those. | ||
| If you put that together with... | ||
| No, I guess there was some rhetoric. | ||
| It was dangerous. | ||
| So, I mean, if you put that together with the planning, him and Biggs were planning on two different ends, one Oath Keepers, one Travelers. | ||
| There's no proof they planned it. | ||
| Well, if you look at the Telegram messages... | ||
| An undercover agent recorded the conversation in the garage. | ||
| But have you looked at the Telegram messages where they're basically instructing people where to go and where they're at and that... | ||
| Saying, hey, we stormed the Capitol. | ||
| We took the Capitol. | ||
| There's no doubt there was LARPing without Trump's directives of some people talking about that. | ||
| Wait, why don't we trust their messages, but we do trust Ray Epps bragging to his nephew that he orchestrated it. | ||
| He's 6 '3". | ||
| We're going to go. | ||
| Yeah, Glenn. | ||
| Let's let Glenn finish this one off, because then I have another question for you guys. | ||
| So that question from Destiny, and it was started by Ben, is a headshot. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Alex has accidentally acknowledged that the messages that Joe Biggs and the other Proud Boys sent, saying stuff like, make no mistake, we did this. | ||
| He's acknowledged those are real, and Destiny asks him why Alex cares so much about Epps' message, but not that. | ||
| Alex slipped up because he's very busy defending Trump, so he lost sight of the larger points that are being discussed. | ||
| And you also might notice that even though Destiny just hit that finishing maneuver on Alex, it really doesn't matter. | ||
| Alex just hand waves and then pretends that he's the only person here being honest and that the other side isn't. | ||
| This is honesty inside a fake constructed reality that Alex lives in, which is to say that the only thing that... | ||
| Is honest is what's working for me right now. | ||
| Yeah, we're going to have to go to Glenn. | ||
| Sorry, I have to interrupt you. | ||
| Once again, you see Ian throwing it to Glenn when Alex is in a bad place. | ||
| I want to make it very clear. | ||
| I don't think that it's a pre-coordinated thing or that necessarily the person is in his ear being like, bail, bail. | ||
| But it does happen. | ||
| It's happening a bit. | ||
| And it could just be Ian's instincts, honestly. | ||
| But it's notable. | ||
| What's important is not why. | ||
| It's what he's doing. | ||
| Whether or not it's because he has the razor instincts or because there's somebody in his ear telling him to do something, what matters is he's helping. | ||
| Yeah, there's structural support for Alex. | ||
| And directed and on purpose. | ||
| But it could be just directed by Ian's instincts. | ||
| Sure, yeah. | ||
| And an understanding of who's paying for the debate. | ||
| Well, that's definitely true. | ||
| So Glenn comes in and condescends some more. | ||
| Glenn, finish this one off because then I have another question for you guys. | ||
| Yeah, the whole thing, like listening to them. | ||
| Honestly, it's like listening. | ||
| I don't mean to be insulting. | ||
| I'm just saying this. | ||
| You know, it's what it sounds like. | ||
| Like seventh graders who learn civics class and have this understanding of how the U.S. government works. | ||
| Like, oh, the FBI investigate and they discover crimes and then they go to the courts. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Glenn, you should be grateful you are very far away from me right now. | |
| Everything that has happened in January 6, and you can even look at the people they picked and choose who to expand the law, the people who ended up getting prosecuted on felony counts, even though they were nonviolent, had these incredibly novel interpretations of law that were used against them to turn nonviolent demonstration and nonviolent political protest into felony by taking this. | ||
| Post Enron law and giving it a stretch meeting that it never had before. | ||
| And the reason so many of them plead guilty is because they know that if they go into court, they're going to have rulings against them because a lot of these judges, especially in Washington, are not only Democratic Party judges, but the entire system is furious to watch people go and put their feet up on Nancy Pelosi's desk. | ||
| So the entire system decided that this has to be punished regardless of what the law provides. | ||
| So it's one thing to be wary and critical of the FBI and any apparatus of the government, but it's another to act like this. | ||
| The condescending attitude, the fast talking, and the actual words he's saying are just an awful combination. | ||
| The FBI committing some awful acts in the past is not evident that everything they do is part of an evil plot and that no one is actually investigating real crimes. | ||
| The courts getting some cases wrong and there being some cases of corruption is not proof that the courts are all part of an evil plot. | ||
| Taking this kind of a blanket knee-jerk opposition is just as idiotic as saying that the FBI is always right or that the courts are always perfect arbiters of the law. | ||
| One's childishly naive and the other's childishly cynical. | ||
| You notice there that Glenn doesn't point out like which specific cases he's talking about, which is weird. | ||
| If you pay attention to what he's saying, he's not even really finishing sentences as he But he's talking about everything that happened in January 6th. | ||
| He's already wrong there. | ||
| He doesn't finish his thoughts, so we don't know exactly where that plane would have crashed. | ||
| Then he says that people were picked and choosed who have the law expanded to charge them. | ||
| Doesn't specify, you know, who these people are or what law that is. | ||
| People. | ||
| Some law. | ||
| It's about people who were charged with felonies who were non-violent. | ||
| Felonies, non-violent people. | ||
| See? | ||
| Do you think that all felonies have to be violent? | ||
| I mean, some felonies have to be violent. | ||
| Isn't stealing a violence? | ||
| So all of this comes into focus when he mentions the post-Enron law aspect of this. | ||
| He's talking about the Sarbines-Oxley Act of 2002, which was passed after the Enron scandal. | ||
| This had to do with obstruction of an official proceeding, and what Glenn is saying has some point to it, but he's way off track. | ||
| First of all, according to NPR's tracker of J6-related arrests, 245 out of the 1,241 people have been charged with obstruction of an official proceeding. | ||
| Many of these people are the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers who did actively conspire to stop the certification of the votes, and many of the others are folks who acted particularly egregiously during the riot. | ||
| Like Robert Turner, who we mentioned on the last episode, the guy who hit three officers in the head with a fire extinguisher. | ||
| not all of them were that extreme or even violent but often those were the people who made contact with authorities. | ||
| You know, they're like, Isaac Thomas is another person who got charged Yeah, that's too many. | ||
| necessarily as throwing a fire extinguisher. | ||
| Sure. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But yeah, that'll get you obstruction of the proceeding. | |
| It'll do it. | ||
| So I would be highly concerned and maybe even agree with Glenn if everyone was being charged with this count. | ||
| Then I might come around to thinking that maybe this is an attempt to turn political activism into a felony. | ||
| But I'm not convinced. | ||
| Right. | ||
| People have discussed the strategy of using this statute in this way as the government trying to be creative about how they prosecute what is one of the most extreme events in recent history. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| It's definitely a special circumstance, so the idea that they would consider an unconventional count to charge people with, that isn't insane as long as the charge is actually appropriate. | ||
| Some people have said that the law doesn't apply to something like trying to stop the certification of election, and that... | ||
| Question's pretty much settled. | ||
| It does. | ||
| However, there is a bigger question that does merit some examination, which is, what is the Mendoza line with this thing? | ||
| Sure. | ||
| This is a felony, so what's the dividing line where someone's actions become a felony in service of obstructing an official proceeding? | ||
| You know, because there would obviously be a version of this that isn't a felony. | ||
| Right. | ||
| There has to be a line. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| It's a pretty important question, since pretty much everyone who was there on the 6th, whether they went to the Capitol or not, was there with the aim of obstructing an official proceeding. | ||
| in a way that rises to the level of a felony. | ||
| That lack of clarity about the dividing line could end up being a problem in some prosecutions, but that's a matter that's gonna be played out as someone may appeal. | ||
| Over time, we'll get a better picture. | ||
| But even acknowledging this, what Glenn is saying is nonsense. | ||
| If they were charging everyone with this, then yeah, his points kinda make sense. | ||
| But maybe a couple people got this charge where it's questionable, and maybe those charges will be overturned. | ||
| But in a lot of these cases, Seems appropriate. | ||
| What I find fascinating about it is that Glenn has just put forth... | ||
| An incredible argument for why they attempted to overthrow the government. | ||
| That does seem like... | ||
| Destiny was one of those boxes of the arguments they're going to make. | ||
| You don't realize it, but what you're arguing for is they should be insurrecting. | ||
| You're saying that these people know in advance they cannot get a fair trial in a country. | ||
| So? | ||
| Right. | ||
| You're arguing in favor of a successful overthrow of the government in order to justify a failed one. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But you don't want to own that position. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| So there's all kinds of other fake nuance being thrown in. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| So Glenn condescends a little more in this next show. | ||
| God damn it, I want to hit him. | ||
| And then things just break down. | ||
| I do understand that if you believe in this, like, story of American propaganda, that the FBI is these upstanding law enforcement people, and they don't do that, and then the courts go and make rulings. | ||
| Then you're going to end up with this image of what the three of them have, which is this idea that this was one of the worst attacks in American history. | ||
| The courts have ruled. | ||
| Everything the government did in this case is consistent with their longstanding view before January 6th that these groups are criminal groups. | ||
| They need to be criminalized. | ||
| Trump's movement is a threat to the United States, and the entire part of January 6th was designed to define them as an insurrectionary movement so that they could criminalize them, which is exactly what they're doing. | ||
| Wait, wait, wait. | ||
| I want to respond to Glenn Realfield. | ||
| Owen didn't have the money for a criminal trial. | ||
| One second. | ||
| 890 convictions or guilty pleas. | ||
| Two acquittals. | ||
| Two. | ||
| 890 to two. | ||
| How many of those were accused of violence? | ||
| They're not convicted of insurrection. | ||
| I believe 170 or so were for violent acts. | ||
| Illegal parraining? | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| A tiny number. | ||
| A small percentage. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, and the Supreme Court is and they should be. | |
| Let Glenn talk. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| I understand that usually what happens in the United States with nonviolent protesters or even with violent protesters is they don't get charged with anything. | ||
| A tiny percentage of people who use violence throughout all of the Black Lives Matter protests ended up in jail because the ideology in which they were protesting was one that was considered positive and friendly by the institutions of authority. | ||
| They were on the side of Black Lives Matter. | ||
| Always treating black people too well. | ||
| The Trump movement and the right-wing extremists, as the government calls them, are considered enemies of the state. | ||
| And that was why the entire law enforcement mechanisms were distorted. | ||
| If you want to actually make these— Let me just back up land break, please. | ||
| I'll shut up. | ||
| Let me finish. | ||
| I'll take a five-minute break. | ||
| Okay. | ||
|
unidentified
|
All right. | |
| It's so great how he promises to leave in order to talk more. | ||
| I love it. | ||
| Amazing. | ||
| I have zero idea how someone could enjoy listening to Glenn, and I listen to Alex all the time, so that's saying something. | ||
| The guy has the most undeservedly condescending tone that I've heard in quite a while. | ||
| There's no virtue or wisdom in pretending everything is corrupt because some things are. | ||
| You don't get to pat yourself on the back and declare yourself the king of nuance for that. | ||
| You can't go around calling everyone else junior high students when you have big, jaded high schooler energy. | ||
| Glenn thinks the government decided that the groups like the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys were criminal groups before January 6th, and I guess he believes they used agents provocateur to start a riot at the Capitol to smear the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys who are actively planning to start a riot at the Capitol in order to criminalize Trump. | ||
| followers. | ||
|
unidentified
|
This isn't a person who has a rational and measured criticism of the government and the misdealings they've committed in the past. | |
| This is far more like an Infowars host than I think Glenn wants people to think he is. | ||
| I mean, the first problem is that the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys are absolutely Sure. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Also, I don't know in what world Glenn thinks 170 convictions out of 890 being violence-related constitutes a tiny number or a small percentage. | ||
| That's a small percentage? | ||
| That's like almost 20%. | ||
| So he seems to just be kind of dishonest and ideologically driven to think that's small. | ||
| One out of every five? | ||
| That means four out of five doctors agree it's not violence. | ||
| I'm certain that under 20% of FBI arrests involve entrapment, but if that were the number, would Glenn say that's a tiny number or small percentage? | ||
| I think not. | ||
| Then Glenn launches into another pretty dumb conspiracy, which is that people involved in BLM-related protests weren't charged for crimes because they were supporting a cause that the man liked, whereas Trump and his... | ||
| It's impossible to make this point and you see them try, but this is apples and oranges. | ||
| And on top of that, Glenn is just adding his imagined motivation for prosecutors charging Trump fans. | ||
| That's not based on anything other than his feelings, namely that he likes Trump and he doesn't like BLM. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| I guarantee if Black Lives Matter had done the same thing, there would be... | ||
| As many arrests, maybe more? | ||
| Maybe a few suspects getting killed while being taken into custody? | ||
| Sure. | ||
| And actually, Glenn's just wrong. | ||
| Black Lives Matter protests ended up being situations where police fired tear gas at protesters constantly. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| A CNN analysis from 2021 found that, quote, D.C. police arrested more than five times as many people at the height of the Black Lives Matter protests last summer than they did during the day of the insurrection at the Capitol. | ||
| Business Insider did a breakdown of protest-related arrests and found that there were 69 arrests on January 6th at the Capitol. | ||
| Understandably, a lot have happened since, but that's a shockingly low number. | ||
| The protest that Alex is talking about with the Democrats bombing the Capitol was the protests on June 1st, 2020, and 194 people were arrested that day. | ||
| No one even stormed the Capitol, and no one was trying to disrupt the certification of an election, and yet over 125 more people were arrested at that Black Lives Matter protest than on January 6th. | ||
| There you have the protest in Minneapolis on May 26th, right after George Floyd was killed, where the police arrested 570 people for protest-related crimes. | ||
| That's almost half of the entire number of people who have been charged since January 6th. | ||
| And again, no one was trying to overturn an election. | ||
| What they were trying to do was not be murdered by cops. | ||
| Do you remember? | ||
| The goal was to not be murdered by cops, and they were arrested more than the people who were like, let's overthrow the country. | ||
| Just throwing that out. | ||
| The myth is that no one was ever charged for anything during these protests, because they aren't really people that folks like Alex and Glenn... | ||
| They don't count as people. | ||
| You can say it stems from a hatred of the left or woke politics or the very obvious answer of racism. | ||
| But whatever the case, you could show them tons of cases of people arrested at those protests. | ||
| They insist no one is arrested at. | ||
| And it wouldn't pierce the narrative for them. | ||
| That's what this all comes down to. | ||
| And what Glenn is articulating is the narrative. | ||
| Trump is a threat to the corrupt and evil U.S. system. | ||
| So supporters are treated unfairly by the corrupt and evil U.S. system. | ||
| It's just a grievement porn. | ||
| Also, isn't Glenn supposed to be a big anti-stress? | ||
| The surveillance guy? | ||
| Shouldn't he be concerned with the government abuse Section 702 of FISA to investigate 133 Black Lives Matter protesters who were arrested in connection with protests? | ||
| I think he wouldn't, like, you know, they wouldn't do that kind of thing, since the government's sympathetic to their cause. | ||
| I'm sure that Glenn is concerned with police brutality, so I can't understand why he's not up in arms about how New York City had to pay out $13 million to 1,300 protesters in a class-action lawsuit after they were kettled into areas they couldn't escape from and then beaten and pepper-sprayed. | ||
| I imagine the police did that to him. | ||
| To show their support, you know, because they supported the cause. | ||
| Yeah, I want to say the studies on permanent damage from the amount of tear gas and shit that cops have hit protesters with, I'm sorry, the left with. | ||
| There's, I mean, it's just nonsense in search of... | ||
| It's insane. | ||
| It's a legitimate, like, this is what I want the government to do. | ||
| Hit these people. | ||
| This is what I don't want the government to do. | ||
| Exist in any fashion that's not hitting those people. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So, Alex, I think he's just bored by any semblance of a debate. | ||
| That's fair, though. | ||
| That is a fair point. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, look, I think that we can find some common agreement there. | ||
| But he just decides he wants to do his show, I think. | ||
| Good call. | ||
| Barely any of them died charged. | ||
| There are plenty of them that were charged. | ||
| There are plenty that were charged. | ||
| Can I just say one thing? | ||
| I'm going to say one thing. | ||
| I'm going to take a break here. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, we're actually all going to be taking a short five minute break here in a moment. | |
| I'm just going to say this right now. | ||
| Ladies and gentlemen. | ||
| We saw billions of dollars of stuff burn down. | ||
| We saw all the killings. | ||
| And we never said all Democrats are involved in that. | ||
| Yes, you did! | ||
| That is a 100% thing you said! | ||
| Everyone in D.C. was a terrorist. | ||
| They're all bad. | ||
| You can't vote for Trump. | ||
| Man, you can really get the feeling Alex just wants to do his show. | ||
| He wants to interrupt and make the pronouncements that he always does, and this interjection really doesn't make sense in the context of a debate, but as a monologue, sure. | ||
| This guy does sound like he could use some more iced tea, though. | ||
| Alex absolutely did say that all Democrats were involved in the violence and property destruction that stemmed from the social justice-related protests. | ||
| One million percent. | ||
| He thinks Kamala Harris personally bailed out violent criminals, so that should tell you how his radar is on assigning blame. | ||
| But he says it a lot to make himself feel better, that he doesn't assign group blame for things. | ||
| So he just repeats that self-reassuring statement in order to accuse his opponents of assigning group blame in that speech that Biden made last night during a debate that's supposed to be about January 6th. | ||
| We're supposed to be talking about January 6th. | ||
| Is that what we're talking about? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So far off track. | ||
| All right. | ||
| So Bad comes in with a hypothetical for Alex. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| And this is tough, because his brain... | ||
| It's not in a state where hypotheticals are the best strategy. | ||
| What if instead of the Capitol, it was the White House and there's thousands of people at the White House fence and they push through the fence? | ||
| Do you think those people deserve more of a criminal penalty than people that were rioting in, I don't know... | ||
| L.A.? | ||
| No, I mean, if it turns out they were under the directive of a foreign power... | ||
| No, no. | ||
| Wait, what? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Wait, wait, wait, wait. | |
| Did they kill a cop? | ||
| It's the crime they commit. | ||
| If a bunch of Americans, when Trump was in the White House, stormed the White House fences with weapons and made it past... | ||
| Oh, like Ashley Mabbitt got shot? | ||
| No, no. | ||
| The Trump supporter shot Ashley Mabbitt. | ||
| They made it past the fence and they were at the doors of the White House. | ||
| Do you think that they would act... | ||
| When Trump asked for the National Guard to stop that, Milley said no. | ||
| Trump didn't ask for a national guard. | ||
| He's on record saying, I threatened to resign. | ||
| That wasn't January 6th. | ||
| That was weeks before. | ||
| You just said about the White House. | ||
| Yeah, but nobody... | ||
| See, I'm giving you specifics. | ||
| I'm giving you specifics. | ||
| Did anybody cross police barricades into the White House? | ||
| You know what I saw was the police, after a little bit of a fight, opened the doors and waved people in. | ||
| They didn't wave people in. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh my God, everybody, get the footage of the police waving another... | |
| There's hundreds. | ||
| There's hundreds. | ||
| There's no hundreds of clips of people waving people through the door. | ||
| What I saw were people breaking the windows, climbing through broken windows, unlocking multiple doors, and letting other people in. | ||
| Once in, police were forced to basically de-escalate the situation and make sure that the congresspeople were protected. | ||
| At that point, they were outnumbered 10 to 1, the Capitol Police, to the rioters. | ||
| At that point... | ||
| Those videos where they're walking alongside people, they're funneling them into the Rupunda. | ||
| I was there. | ||
| You weren't in the Capitol, and I give you credit for that. | ||
| You knew when to turn around. | ||
| The Wall Street Journal said I was cowardly on top of a car, commanding people to invade. | ||
| But thank God Jack Posobiec, because I didn't have a Twitter then, put the video out of me saying don't go in. | ||
| I got there in the middle of it. | ||
| I'm glad you didn't, and you made the right decision. | ||
| When you're there with 300,000 people, there's a million in town. | ||
| And they don't even know what's happening in front of them. | ||
| They're being guided in. | ||
| A lot of those innocent people that just walked to the Capitol have been sent to prison. | ||
| So that was an interesting exchange, I think, because I don't think Alex in any way followed what Bed was saying. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, not at all. | |
| The hypothetical didn't connect. | ||
| Not even in a little bit. | ||
| No. | ||
| But what I think is more fascinating is that Bed was able to stand up to Alex's belligerence, which is nice to see. | ||
| It was. | ||
| You have Alex saying that police just wave people in, and Bed is able to explain the context of that video. | ||
| Alex isn't used to being called on something like this, so he entirely crumbles. | ||
| And then Bed, I think accidentally, wins Alex over with flattery by saying it was good of him to not go into the Capitol. | ||
| I know. | ||
| It's such a stark turnaround from them arguing to Alex sounding like a guy having a friendly conversation at the bar at the end of that clip. | ||
| Oh, you said nice! | ||
| I think the hinge point was mild flattery. | ||
| He's so stupid. | ||
| I think that's what happened. | ||
| Here's what I don't understand. | ||
| How is their next thing not going to be like, uh, Alex, you told people not to go. | ||
| Why? | ||
| There is a reason. | ||
| What was that reason? | ||
| Because the feds were trying to set people up by having them go in. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And? | |
| Owen didn't do anything. | ||
| Did you see Biden's speech last night? | ||
| So Ian tries to set things in order and has a question. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| I want to ask you guys, he's talking about these people in prison, these prison sentences. | ||
| So I want to talk to you briefly about if you think these prison sentences that some of these people are getting are justified or not. | ||
| And then we're going to be taking questions from the audience from Zero Hedge Premium. | ||
| So if you haven't, sign up at zerohedge.com. | ||
| Sign up for the premium service. | ||
| You may be able to get a question before we wrap. | ||
| So the questions that Ian has for this debate are pretty bad. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| The answers that these people are going to have are very obvious before they say anything. | ||
| And it's just going to turn into that old Daily Show sketch, Even Steven. | ||
| Yes! | ||
| No! | ||
| Yes! | ||
| No! | ||
| I'm interested to see what questions come in from Zero Hedge Premium subscribers. | ||
| That'll definitely be a diverse and representative cross-section of people from all walks of life and political backgrounds. | ||
| Great. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| How many questions do you think they get to? | ||
| Zero. | ||
| Higher. | ||
| Two. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| That sounds about right. | ||
| Is that the number of people who just signed up for Zero Hedge Premium? | ||
| The feeling is they would have got to more if things were different in the room. | ||
| Gotcha. | ||
| Ian does seem a little annoyed that they didn't get to more questions, but what are you going to do? | ||
| What are you going to do? | ||
| So anyway, Ian asks this question about the prison sentences, and he starts off by going to Darren. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| What do you guys think? | ||
| I mean, let me start with you, Darren, because I haven't heard from you. | ||
| By the way, I don't want to rap. | ||
| I mean, I say take a break. | ||
| A lot of people are tuning in now. | ||
| I'll keep having this debate all day long. | ||
| Yeah, we might keep going. | ||
| But Darren, what do you think about the prison sentences in general that these people have been getting? | ||
| I think they're completely overblown, and they're consistent with what we're talking about, this amplification of January 6th into this false domestic terrorist act. | ||
| I mean, it was a big deal, January 6th. | ||
| But I liked Ian's dismissiveness of Alex there. | ||
| Yeah, we may keep going. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| That's all. | ||
| I mean, that's all I have to say. | ||
| I felt like Ian might need a compliment, and I enjoyed that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
All right. | |
| So Darren tries to answer this question, which he has already interrupted by saying, we can go longer. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| And then Alex interrupts Darren again. | ||
| Great. | ||
| Even the people who committed illegal acts... | ||
| Are, in effect, political prisoners because of the political context of these prosecutions, which are vastly overblown and could only make sense within this political context of the weaponization not only of the national security state, but unfortunately now also the legal apparatus. | ||
| And let's go on the line with Glenn again and then all you guys. | ||
| I just want to say something. | ||
| This is important, folks. | ||
| In June of 2021, Biden put out a national security memorandum, which you just mentioned, saying right-wing extremism is the number one threat. | ||
| Then he defined that... | ||
| As white supremacism and then said, questioning open borders, questioning elections, questioning lockdowns, questioning for shots. | ||
| That's in the report. | ||
| I've shown it hundreds of times on air. | ||
| Literally declaring the people enemy. | ||
| Then he gives a speech with this red background with Marines. | ||
| I thought I was watching Adolf Hitler. | ||
| And then yesterday he gives a speech and saying, they're taking over. | ||
| They're a danger. | ||
| We're at war. | ||
| All off a riot at the Capitol. | ||
| At best, it's a riot. | ||
| And obviously provocateur. | ||
| This is a branding of 80 million voters plus as a political enemy. | ||
| This is extremely totalitarian, extremely dangerous. | ||
| And I was there. | ||
| I know. | ||
| You're in a crowd of hundreds of thousands. | ||
| Tear gas is coming down. | ||
| You can't even see what's happening at the Capitol. | ||
| You're saying, don't go in there. | ||
| We've got a stage. | ||
| I go there. | ||
| There's a stage. | ||
| No one there. | ||
| I mean, we were set up. | ||
| And I was set up. | ||
| And thank God that I waited 30, 40 minutes. | ||
| I didn't know what to do. | ||
| I was like, this is weird. | ||
| How do I lead a crowd that's already left? | ||
| I was there. | ||
| And so all I'm saying is this is not the basis to indict populist Americans and say they're terrorists. | ||
| And if the U.S. government spent the equivalent of $10 trillion, they spent a trillion in Afghanistan of real current numbers. | ||
| But the estimates now are $10 trillion in current dollars in Vietnam, and the Vietnamese wouldn't give up. | ||
| So Swallowswell says we'll use F-16s. | ||
| We'll just kill Americans. | ||
| We'll take your guns. | ||
| F-16s don't take guns, folks. | ||
| I don't want a civil war. | ||
| I don't want violence. | ||
| But the entire deep state couldn't defeat... | ||
| Why is everyone listening to this? | ||
| What is everyone there doing? | ||
| Stop this! | ||
| Stop it! | ||
| Somebody tackle him! | ||
| It needs to stop. | ||
| I don't want a war with Democrats. | ||
| I don't want civil war. | ||
| I don't have some dream of this. | ||
| But this is the election strategy. | ||
| Of Joe Biden is civil war. | ||
| Glenn, did you want to say something? | ||
| When I listen to Alex... | ||
| In a context like this, all I can think of is Mark Bankson asking him, do you know what question you're answering? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And then Alex looking back at him like a fish. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Alex completely forgets in the middle that the topic is, are the jail sentences appropriate? | ||
| Because he remembers that it's fun to fantasize about how well his buddies would do in a civil war. | ||
| It is fun. | ||
| This is nonsense. | ||
| It's way more fun. | ||
| The thing that Alex is doing is nothing new. | ||
| Apparently Biden put out a memorandum that said white supremacy is the number one threat in terms of domestic terrorism. | ||
| But guess what? | ||
| That happened in 2004, too, and 2005, and 2006, and 2007, and on and on. | ||
| This narrative constantly gets replayed on Alex's show any time a public leader gives voice to concerns about how white supremacist and white nationalist groups pose a threat to public safety. | ||
| This narrative continues to get reused because Alex's content is driven by intense feelings of white victimhood, which is validated by being constantly told that the government just declared war on you because you're white. | ||
| In June 2021, Biden released his national strategy for countering domestic terrorism, which listed a threat that emerges, quote, from racially or ethnically motivated violent extremists whose racial, ethnic, or religious hatred leads them towards violence, as well as those whom they encourage to take violent action. | ||
| This wasn't just white supremacist groups. | ||
| It includes all groups that could fall under that umbrella, but Alex, you know, he hangs out mostly with white supremacist types, so his view is a little narrowed by that. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| It didn't say that people who questioned elections or didn't like vaccines were terrorists. | ||
| It said, quote, newer sociopolitical developments such as narratives of fraud in the recent general election, the emboldening impact of the violent breach of the U.S. Capitol, conditions related to the COVID-19 pandemic, and conspiracy theories promoting violence will almost certainly spur some domestic violent extremists to try to engage in violence this year. | ||
| This isn't saying that if you're one of the people who questions elections or doesn't like vaccines, you're a terrorist. | ||
| It means that the sociopolitical climate created by these groups creates heightened concerns about domestic extremism. | ||
| Conspiracy-minded communities are often good recruitment pools for extremists. | ||
| Think about how many Infowars listeners probably became Oath Keepers because of how often Stuart Rhodes was on. | ||
| Being an Infowars listener doesn't make you an Oath Keeper, but it makes you more likely to have joined. | ||
| In turn, being an Oath Keeper doesn't make you a domestic violent extremist, but we've seen that it's a possible path towards it. | ||
| Further, conspiracy shit has the tendency to give cover to domestic violent extremists. | ||
| January 6th is a perfect illustration of that. | ||
| The giant crowd that was there obscured the violent extremists that were contained within, like the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys. | ||
| This is the exact same shell game Alex has been playing his entire career. | ||
| Go back to 2009, it's the same game with the MIAC report. | ||
| It just gets played over and over and over again because it works. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
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And I'm... | |
| Yeah, it is weird that... | ||
| We've all just continued to listen to it. | ||
| It's true. | ||
| But it's just like fucking... | ||
| I mean, it's not just like, but it makes me think of the way people reacted to Alex just saying all that insane nonsense. | ||
| Just like, okay then! | ||
| Glenn, you talk now! | ||
| The only difference is that in this room, it's partially because Alex holds so much sway. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Like, it's in his studio, and he's friends with the people paying for it. | ||
|
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Sure! | |
| So, like, he's obviously, and he's drunk. | ||
| I mean, the reasons that we don't deal with white nationalist terror is also because white nationalists hold too much sway in this country. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, there may be some overlaps there. | ||
| So, bad bores people with facts here. | ||
|
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Boo! | |
| And you just hear Alex, like, Dreaming of iced tea. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Biggs, Stuart Rose, and Enrique Torrio, they were sentenced to some of the harshest sentences out of all the January Sixers. | ||
| Who was the judge? | ||
| It was a Trump-appointed judge, Timothy Kelly. | ||
| Now, if you look at the worst convictions, the ones that received the largest sentences, 80% of them were actually under the sentencing guidelines. | ||
| 80%. | ||
| These people didn't receive sentences that were any more harsh than anybody else in other crimes. | ||
| And these were people sentenced from a Trump judge, a Trump-appointed judge. | ||
| So you're all saying that, oh, the courts are rigged against conservatives or Trump supporters. | ||
| But these are Trump judges. | ||
| Many of these were Trump judges that actually charge these, not charge these people, but sentence these people. | ||
| I think that if we want to talk about knowing history and understanding history and contextualizing history, I think if we want to run with that argument, then we need to do real journalist work while we do it. | ||
| It's not enough to say the FBI or the CIA has done this 10, 20 years ago and then blindly assert it every single time it happens to fit whatever political narrative you want to tell. | ||
| If you want to tell a story, the person telling the story needs to find evidence to support it. | ||
| Sure, if you want to say the FBI or the CIA or any other domestic agency has been involved in spying on Americans and doing bad things, that's fine. | ||
| We all know that it's happened. | ||
| That doesn't mean that you don't have to find evidence in the future of it happening. | ||
| And so far, there is no evidence of it happening on January 6th. | ||
| As many times as you want to throw around the follow politics before 2016 or whatever, well, we're in 2024 right now. | ||
| Find some information from today or find some information from January 6th to today. | ||
| It's not enough to just keep appealing to the past and pretend like that's going to do your homework for you and that somehow you can make all of these accusations about having any real evidence. | ||
| There's a pregnant silence between Bed's point and destiny, and I think that's because what Bed said kind of ruins all their arguments about the politically motivated prosecution argument. | ||
| It does. | ||
| And it involves, you know, people on the Darren Alex Glenn side are insisting there's a conspiracy of all these judges. | ||
| Wait, we charged many of them under the guidelines. | ||
| How does this work? | ||
| So it seems like it's not a politically motivated witch hunt. | ||
| But then, I gotta tip the cap to Destiny for that rebuttal. | ||
| It really does cut to the core of Glenn's entire premise with the condescension about how the FBI has done bad stuff in the past, so you can just assume that they did bad stuff this time. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| It's a frustrating thing, because this is a solid rebuttal that would be difficult to deal with, but because of how the debate has been so poorly moderated and full of Alex's substance-fueled distractions, there's no way that this would... | ||
| It was able to come up in a coherent way where it was a counterpoint to something directly that Glenn had said that Glenn could then respond to. | ||
| As it stands, it just feels like a good point in the ether. | ||
| But Destiny goes on because, I don't know why, but... | ||
| Apparently people are being allowed to talk. | ||
| Yeah, what is happening right now? | ||
| Oh, Alex is gone again. | ||
| Novel uses of charges, or people don't do charges like this. | ||
| As was said over here, most of the sentences have been within sentencing guidelines. | ||
| A lot of these have been done with a Trump-appointed judge. | ||
| The idea that these charges are novel, that people don't face prosecution like this... | ||
| There's some element of truth to that, but this is also a novel situation. | ||
| We have never had a president in the United States try to resist the peaceful transfer of power like this. | ||
| This has just never happened before. | ||
| And you can keep screaming about Hillary Clinton and you can keep screaming about BLM all you want and talk about the blown up fire stations and the congressional halls. | ||
| The reality is that none of those situations were like this one. | ||
| If you want to keep appealing to those and saying those people should have been charged with crimes, we agree they should have been charged with crimes. | ||
| But to even do the whataboutism, you have to already concede that you are wrong on all of the merits about the current people you're talking about. | ||
| Every single time we talk about Donald Trump, you go, well, what about when Hillary Clinton or Biden did it? | ||
| Oh, okay, then you admit that Trump did? | ||
| Because if you want to admit that Trump is guilty of every single thing that we've been accusing him of, which is what you're doing when you go, what about the other guy? | ||
| Because it seems like you're just trying to appeal to hypocrisy at that point rather than... | ||
| of the matter, then do that. | ||
| Say, yeah, Trump did try to cite an insurrection. | ||
| Yeah, Trump did fail. | ||
| Yeah, it was a riot. | ||
| I don't know why you keep saying Well, let me ask you this. | ||
| No, don't ask me this. | ||
| Let me finish my one point one time without being interrupted by you. | ||
| I know you came running back because you heard me talking. | ||
| You had to interrupt me. | ||
| I know you came running back and you were so excited for it. | ||
| Okay? | ||
|
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Right on our team. | |
| The rhetoric of mostly peaceful riot. | ||
| Yeah, it was mostly peaceful. | ||
| A lot of riots that have riot aspects to them have a lot of peaceful people there. | ||
| And a 10,000 riot riot, it's not always 10,000 people rioting. | ||
| It might just be 100 people rioting or 1,000 people rioting. | ||
| The reality was, there was one event on January 6th at the Capitol building. | ||
| That event was a riot. | ||
| Okay, so let me just add some context here. | ||
| Well, they had two trials in Michigan, and one of them was a mistrial, and they let most of them off the other, and they finally got a few convicted. | ||
| It came out in court that the feds went and found a bunch of basically homeless potheads. | ||
| And just like Glenn was saying, the New York Times article, but they were more accurate, 97% of Islamic plots were hatched by the FBI, including the First World Trade Center bombing. | ||
| And they admit all that. | ||
| And I've interviewed the people involved in. | ||
| Are we all just going to... | ||
| The FBI, First World Trade Center bombing, we're all just going to let that one go. | ||
| It is not addressed. | ||
| ...the FBI went and set these people up, and that came out in the mainstream news. | ||
| So we know this isn't... | ||
| You guys were saying, we don't want to go back to 10 years ago. | ||
| You know, I've sat there for six, seven minutes, you know, out there smoking a cigarette. | ||
| I went back 40 years ago. | ||
| You're like, there's no example recently of them doing something corrupt or bad. | ||
| I never said that. | ||
| It's a great example. | ||
| I said, find evidence. | ||
|
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Six years ago, he said, you can use 20 years of evidence. | |
| This is a great point that Alex is making. | ||
|
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Is it? | |
| It's not. | ||
| So just to be clear, Alex doesn't have his facts right about the Ahmad Salam case. | ||
| We've covered that. | ||
| In terms of FBI entrapping the vast majority of their terrorism cases after 9-11, I don't think there's much doubt about that being a trend. | ||
| I found an interesting article from 2015 published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology titled Estimating the Prevalence of Entrapment in Post-9-11 Terrorism Cases. | ||
| The researchers reviewed 580 terrorism-related cases and found that about 9% of them posed real independent terrorist threats without any entrapment indicators, which is higher than the figure that Alex and his folks would cite. | ||
| Right. | ||
|
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To be clear, these indicators do not definitively prove entrapment. | |
| Just that there's a concern. | ||
| The indicators range from some kind of indefinite things like the suspect having no previous terrorism history or to this. | ||
| One of them is the suspect is young. | ||
| It ranges from those kinds of things to more concrete things like an informant coming up with the plot or an informant paying the suspect. | ||
| Right. | ||
| The road is somewhat narrow in terms of a case not having one indicator, but still 91% having at least one is a troubling stat. | ||
| Yeah, that's not good. | ||
| However, the research led them to the conclusion that not all types of terrorism have the same level of indications of entrapment. | ||
| For instance, jihadi-related terrorism averaged 6.3 indicators of entrapment, whereas right-wing terrorists have an average of 2.8. | ||
| For comparison, left-wing terrorist plots averaged 10.2. | ||
| In their research, they found far more indications of government entrapment directed towards Muslims and the left-wing, and comparatively very little toward right-wing plots. | ||
| Man, we really gotta make those fucking left-wingers fight people, and these assholes will just do it for anybody! | ||
| It's almost like we like them more for the very reasons that we are prosecuting them! | ||
| Alex brings up the Whitmer kidnapping plot, and I'll be honest, that one's messy. | ||
| But also, Alex is wrong. | ||
| There were informants, and as you've even pointed out, one of them was the second in command of the group, and there are entrapment indicators all around. | ||
| That being said, I'm still not convinced that the plot itself wasn't real. | ||
| Sure, sure. | ||
| It's entirely possible for the FBI to have acted inappropriately and for it to still be a real plot, which, like I said, is messy. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| No, it's like, listen, that guy... | ||
| I believe that guy murdered that guy, totally. | ||
| But the cops also did such a bad job investigating and all that stuff that I also think the trial is a mistrial, etc. | ||
| These are both true things, right? | ||
| Those dudes could have tried to kidnap her. | ||
| Also, you can't be second in command. | ||
| You can't. | ||
| You just can't. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| There are many, many questions. | ||
| But I still, from the things that I've read, am not totally convinced that it's an inorganic thing. | ||
| It's just, it is their fault that they're not... | ||
| Getting it easily. | ||
| You know what I'm saying? | ||
| Yeah, but more to the point here, Alex is bringing that case up because he's misrepresenting what Destiny said earlier. | ||
| Destiny said you point to all these times the FBI did wrong to prove that they did wrong this time, but what you're lacking is evidence involving this time. | ||
| Alex is using the Michigan case because his misrepresentation was to pretend Destiny was saying that these examples that they all gave weren't recent enough. | ||
| Alex does provide the connective tissue that's needed here, though. | ||
| He says the same team that did the Whitmer setup did January... | ||
| I have no idea what that even means in terms of the real world, but I do think that if Alex knows that the same team of setup artists who did the Whitmer plot did January 6th, why did we spend so long on Ray Epps? | ||
| What the fuck? | ||
| I would even go so far as to say then they had a first try and fucked up. | ||
| Somehow you think they did worse on the second go-round? | ||
| I guess. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So the question of this entrapment stuff, it raises a specter of, what about left-wing terrorism? | ||
| Let's see. | ||
| Let's hear about left-wing terrorism. | ||
| How do you guys feel about that? | ||
| How many of the BLM riots were instigated by FBI? | ||
| What? | ||
| How many of the BLM riots were instigated by our own intelligence agencies? | ||
| Well, they had agents in there. | ||
| In fact, one of the guys, Sullivan, one of the guys, Jake Sullivan, he had a very complicated relationship. | ||
| Antifa basically excluded him because of his... | ||
| Why is it that when BLM... | ||
| BLM rioters, I guess you could say, aren't arrested as much as you want. | ||
| Like, you know, you say the January Sixers were arrested at a much higher rate than the rioters. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| Okay, how come you don't say that? | ||
| And much more property damage as a result of BLM. | ||
| So here's the thing, though. | ||
| Why don't you accuse those who aren't prosecuted for those riots of being federal agents? | ||
| Well, in some cases they probably are, but at that scale... | ||
| But we don't care. | ||
| How do you know? | ||
| If you want to go conspiracy theory, I mean, let's touch all the bases. | ||
| But, I mean, Michigan is on record. | ||
| Can I interject? | ||
| Let's go to Glenn. | ||
| This is some bullshit. | ||
| Alex believes that all of these protests on the left are run by Antifa, and Soros had contracts with them to start martial law, but now he doesn't seem so emphatic about that. | ||
| There were literal contracts! | ||
| This is a strange shift in tone from the usual. | ||
| These guys don't spend time trying to find the agents provocateur in the federal informants in cases of left-wing rioting, if you even allow the term, because they don't actually care about that issue. | ||
| They care about using the specter of informants and entrapment to excuse right-wing extremism. | ||
| Darren brings up Jake Sullivan as an attempt of some supposed fed who was at left-wing protests, but he wouldn't even know that guy if he wasn't an early attempt at a scapegoat for Jane January 6th. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
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And his name is John. | |
| Also, let's not forget that Alex, one of his employees, was caught on film desperately trying to buy John's footage of Ashley Babbitt being shot minutes after it happened. | ||
| That is what happened. | ||
| If you recall January 6th. | ||
| I do recall that. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
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The only reason that guy's name is even known is because he was the proto-Ray Epps. | |
| That, uh... | ||
| Oh, man. | ||
| I find it so strange how both well-prepared Destiny and the Krasensteins are and how thoroughly unaware they are of what limitations they're under. | ||
| It feels insane. | ||
| Like, y 'all knew what to expect somewhat coming in, and yet what I feel like you never bothered to learn was that they don't care about you. | ||
| To the point where... | ||
| And they don't care about what the points are making. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| I mean, it is strange. | ||
| It is like... | ||
| Yeah, I don't know. | ||
| Also, I was like, Jake Sullivan, that name rings a bell. | ||
| That's the MSNBC guy, right? | ||
| No. | ||
| CNN? | ||
| No, no. | ||
| That's Jake Tapper. | ||
| The reason that I was thinking was because the main character in Avatar is Jake Sully. | ||
| Might have just watched The Way of Water or something. | ||
| Actually, I haven't seen that. | ||
| I was going to say, you absolutely did not watch The Way of Water. | ||
| No, but I've heard of it. | ||
|
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Yep. | |
| So, in this next clip, I'm going to skip ahead a little bit. | ||
| Bed explains why some people were charged with felonies. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| In the context... | ||
| Some people were worse. | ||
| Yeah, and he gives a couple of categories. | ||
| The people who got the felonies were either violent, they were taking part in a conspiracy, or they went into the House chamber. | ||
| Those are the people who walked into the Capitol building. | ||
| That's not true. | ||
|
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It is true. | |
| No, it's not. | ||
| I just gave you a specific example earlier. | ||
| Conspiracy? | ||
| Give me an example. | ||
| What did he do? | ||
| Thomas Caldwell. | ||
| He was not violent and he did not go into the Capitol. | ||
| What did he do? | ||
|
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What is his conviction? | |
| Let's talk about Thomas Caldwell for a minute. | ||
| To Glenn's point, keep in mind that when you're saying that BLM wasn't treated the same because of the government, you're not just alleging the federal government at that point, you're alleging every single state government and city municipality that's in charge of arresting people are all on the same page? | ||
| Almost all of us in D.C. Wait, the feds are in charge of prosecuting everybody in every state? | ||
| Thomas Caldwell was part of the conspiracy. | ||
| He was part of the conspiracy by the Oath Keeper. | ||
| Let Glenn come in. | ||
| That's why he got charged with a felony. | ||
| Go for it, Glenn. | ||
| When Black Lives Matter happened, every single blue state mayor and every single blue state governor weighed in on the side of the riders because they were petrified of being demonized as being racist if they didn't support everything the Black Lives Matter movement did. | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| Oh, man. | ||
| Yeah, I remember that clearly. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So much support. | ||
| So, Bed lays out three groups of people who would have gotten felonies, and Darren replies that he has a counterexample, which is someone who's in one of those groups, namely a person who was involved in the seditious conspiracy. | ||
| That's just incoherent! | ||
| Then Alex just starts yelling about Owen, who didn't get charged with a felony and only got arrested because he didn't do his community service for a previous offense, and then this thing just falls to shreds. | ||
| It's, uh... | ||
| But yeah, Destiny does bring up a good point, though, that if you're, like, saying that all these BLM arrests and stuff are, you know, somehow, you know, there's a conspiracy to not charge them but do charge the federal people. | ||
| You're saying that every, like, local and state law enforcement... | ||
|
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And, you know, that's kind of nuts. | |
| Again, why you would overthrow the government. | ||
| But it's also such a wildly extreme... | ||
| Kind of conspiracy to suggest. | ||
|
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Totally. | |
| And so Destiny tries to explain that that's not a rational thing to suggest. | ||
| The entire establishment was on the side of the Black Lives Matter movement. | ||
| The entire establishment hated the January 6th defendants. | ||
| That's the reality of our government that you don't understand. | ||
| The reality of a government that you don't understand, no, no, the reality of a government that you don't understand is that police orders don't come down from the federal government or even from the governors. | ||
| Policing is done at the municipal level. | ||
| The idea that governors are dictating No, this is federal. | ||
| No, the BLM rights are not all federally prosecuted. | ||
| These are state crimes that are happening within states. | ||
| Oh, this city's a paid whole bunch of money. | ||
| They're not happening within states. | ||
| The idea that the governor themselves Since when is the lab? | ||
| Don't arrest protesters. | ||
|
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Don't convict them. | |
| Not a single shred of evidence. | ||
| How much do you love the police state? | ||
| Isn't that weird? | ||
| I was against the police state and got arrested by George W. Bush. | ||
| Why are we forgetting something? | ||
| We're forgetting one thing, and that is that you can commit a crime, you can commit a felony, and it doesn't have to be violent. | ||
| That's a good point. | ||
| What? | ||
| Oh my God. | ||
| Alex is on one. | ||
| You know, interaction isn't necessarily going to be productive at this point. | ||
| I do think, honestly, as he's in this point, I don't think he can even keep his thoughts straight. | ||
| No. | ||
| And that's why he has to keep saying, since when does it last? | ||
| Because he needs to remember what his next thought is supposed to be. | ||
| It's partially to yell over Destiny, but also to be like... | ||
| If he doesn't... | ||
| Continue repeating that. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| He will forget what he was going to say, then get distracted and say something completely different. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Certify an election. | ||
|
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Let me ask you this. | |
| How is that going over your head, Glenn? | ||
| Let me ask you this. | ||
| I'm asking you this and everybody. | ||
| Please answer my question. | ||
| Is this as bad as Pearl Harbor or is this as bad as 9-11? | ||
| And all I'm telling you is... | ||
| Let's do it. | ||
| ...is... | ||
| Roundtable, who's going to go? | ||
| This Biden announcement that currently the number one threat is the Trump supporters and Trump must be taken off the ballot. | ||
| You can punt to the Supreme Court, but they're literally trying to preclude Americans for voting for who they want. | ||
| That's the election theft and our face. | ||
| Why do we have to keep going back to that? | ||
| Yeah, that's the third time that question was asked and unanswered. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, who cares? | ||
| They're taking somebody off the ballot. | ||
| It's a little big deal. | ||
| Oh, boy. | ||
| Yeah, so Alex, I mean, just don't think that he's... | ||
| He's thinking very well. | ||
| He's clinging to these talking points pretty hard that he's focused on Biden's speech from last night and the big gotcha of his January 6th as big as Pearl Harbor. | ||
| He seems like he's patting himself on the back for getting that in our face. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Just landed that. | ||
| So much, yeah. | ||
| So you can hear there at the end... | ||
| Ian is trying to get things back to this Thomas Caldwell, because that was somebody who Darren Beattie had brought up as someone who wasn't in the Capitol, had got charged with a felony, and what do you know? | ||
| He doesn't want to get into the weeds. | ||
| Talk about Thomas Caldwell, and Darren, maybe you can answer this. | ||
|
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Who is he, what did he do exactly, and what was he charged with? | |
| We don't need to get into that so extensively. | ||
| I was just saying, here is somebody who is not violent, who did not go into the Capitol, who is charged with... | ||
| Obstruction of an official proceeding. | ||
| No, it's seditious conspiracy. | ||
| Well, there was later a supersede. | ||
|
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Well! | |
| That's a felony he was charged with. | ||
| Biden's entire campaign is January 6th. | ||
| Not inflation, not war with Russia, not open borders. | ||
| I mean, give me a break, man. | ||
| Give me a break. | ||
| He had a million-plus people there. | ||
| A few hundred got in fights with the cops, and you act like it's the biggest thing since sliced bread. | ||
| It's a pretty big deal when a president tries to overturn a legitimate election. | ||
| That's a really big deal. | ||
| He wanted a 10-day investigation. | ||
| You had all your investigations and you lost every single one. | ||
| When you lose in court, you go to the next day. | ||
| Remember in 2016 when all the conservatives said, well, you know what? | ||
| If we would have lost the election, you know what we would have done the next day? | ||
| We would have went to work. | ||
| Well, here you are four years later still crying about the outcome of the election. | ||
| So if Biden's going to win by a landslide, why are the Democrats not winning the ballot? | ||
|
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It's up to the Supreme Court to decide. | |
| Can I just say what my dream is? | ||
| My dream is that Ed and Brian and Destiny have to actually live through a real coup. | ||
| Can I say what my dream is? | ||
| Legally? | ||
| No. | ||
| That clip right there is a great spiritual encapsulation of this entire debate. | ||
| You have Darren not wanting to get into the details about something he brought up but thought no one else would know about. | ||
| You have Alex yelling nonsense, acting like he's on his own show instead of a debate. | ||
| You have Destiny trying to actually make a point amidst the nonsense. | ||
| And you have Glenn being a condescending dipshit. | ||
| You also have Ben sprinkled in there a little bit, doing... | ||
| He's doing his best. | ||
| They are doing their best. | ||
| This is it. | ||
|
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|
This is what the debate is in a one minute, ten second chunk. | |
| It really is, yeah. | ||
| It's almost in its way beautiful and fleeting. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| It's the platonic ideal of wasting time. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| That's as good as it's going to get. | ||
| And we got it in a short bit. | ||
| Yeah, which is why I'm going to end up skipping a little bit. | ||
| But before I skip anything, Alex once again promises he's about to leave. | ||
| That sounds right. | ||
| Let me say this and I'll shut up. | ||
| I will leave for 10 minutes. | ||
|
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|
I will leave. | |
| Let me ask this one question to Glenn. | ||
| I want you all to answer this. | ||
| Humor me. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| Because Glenn is a really great writer. | ||
| I really respect him. | ||
| I've fallen for decades. | ||
| Can everyone describe a coup to me? | ||
| Because usually it's helicopters, taking over media, killing the opposition, troops. | ||
| And then you're claiming women with American flags and being waved in by police as a coup. | ||
| So define to me, all of you first, and then Glenn, and then the professor, what is a coup? | ||
| It sounds like someone needs a refill on his Tito's and another cigarette. | ||
| I'll say this is a great question from Alex, though. | ||
| His version of a coup isn't necessarily accurate, but it's a good question. | ||
| Hours into this debate, someone is asking what the definition of a coup is. | ||
| Could you explain to me what it is we are talking about? | ||
| That is great, great stuff. | ||
| Now that we're... | ||
| How long have we been doing? | ||
| What are we talking about? | ||
| Destiny decides to answer Alex's question of what a coup is. | ||
| Destiny, goddammit. | ||
| And then watch Alex's reaction. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| What is a coup? | ||
| Since this was the most devastating evil coup ever, explain to me. | ||
| A coup is when you enact a scheme to try to circumvent the peaceful transfer of power. | ||
| Like Ratchet Gate. | ||
| No, they didn't take any action. | ||
| They tried to remove him on a line. | ||
| There's nothing illegal done there to try and remove him. | ||
|
unidentified
|
The intelligence agencies censoring fake dossiers? | |
| Oh, that was illegal? | ||
| The dossier was... | ||
| Saying his election wasn't legitimate? | ||
| Did they try to remove him? | ||
| They took it to Congress. | ||
| Wait, wait, wait. | ||
| Hold on. | ||
| You admit, then, that Trump tried a coup, and you think Russgate was also a coup, then? | ||
| Do you want to do that? | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| No, I don't agree Trump had a coup. | ||
| I'm asking you... | ||
| Wait, wait. | ||
| Fight on the merits. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Fight on the merits, then. | |
| Fight on the merits. | ||
| Do you know about Prinochet? | ||
| Do you know about Hitler? | ||
| Fight on the merits. | ||
| Fight on the merits. | ||
| What is a coup? | ||
| Fight on the merits. | ||
| Hey, you're the smart guy. | ||
| You know the answer to that, Destiny. | ||
| Focus on Trump. | ||
| Define me a coup. | ||
| I just did. | ||
| Did you not listen to it? | ||
| No. | ||
| Glenn Ringwald. | ||
| Just yelling and then insisting that Destiny provide a definition, which he already did. | ||
| Let's go to Glenn. | ||
| Did you not hear me? | ||
| What? | ||
| I guess not. | ||
| So here's Glenn's definition of a coup. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Well, eh, why not? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Let's start with Glenn Greenwald. | ||
| Glenn, you're a well-respected journalist. | ||
| You look at people around the world. | ||
| What do they usually look like? | ||
| I know. | ||
| Destiny is now the incredible giant of journalism and the constitutional scholar. | ||
| I used to be, as Destiny said. | ||
| But anyway, a coup is generally when people in power or people who are trying to get into power partial the force of the armed factions of that country and use it to eliminate the legal process and take over. | ||
| So, for example, if Trump had called in the military on his side on January 6th, or he had gotten the military to block people from trying to remove him from office on January 20th, that is always what we say is a coup. | ||
| So that's not the definition of a coup. | ||
| That's like the definition of maybe a military coup. | ||
| Tons of different types of coup, many of which don't involve the military at all, and many that don't require violence. | ||
| If this is the definition that Glenn is using, then nothing other than taking control of the military to stay in power is even describable as an attempted coup, which isn't a defensible position, but that seems to be where the head is at, which is kind of a problem. | ||
| Yeah, I mean... | ||
| That is kind of where we're struggling with, is because January 6th was stopped a little bit too early for people to really understand what was going to have to happen afterwards. | ||
| Right. | ||
| It's not like... | ||
| I understand. | ||
| The Capitol building is pretend. | ||
| It's just a building. | ||
| We could all run into the Capitol building and just dance around and be like, ah, we run the government. | ||
| That's not how the government works. | ||
| The certification of the results is a ceremony. | ||
| It doesn't change the outcome of the election. | ||
| That could have been done at anywhere. | ||
| It could have been done at a Denny's. | ||
| All of those things are available. | ||
| In order to then take over the country, There would have to have been follow-up shit going down from Trump. | ||
| That 10-day investigation would have involved Nancy Pelosi going to jail. | ||
| It would have been 10 nights of long nines. | ||
| Exactly! | ||
| Yes, it would have been non-stop consolidating the power that is taking control of, you know? | ||
| Yeah, and when you say that it ended too early... | ||
| No, thank God it did. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, thank God it did. | ||
| It ended too early for us to, like... | ||
| Like, actually be able to point to it and be like, this is what, that was the beginning of. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| If this had gone on another day, Nancy Pelosi would have been hanging on television. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That is how it worked. | ||
| I think you're probably right. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So Ian wants to go to questions. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And I imagine... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Smart. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| This is the heart of it. | ||
| Coups are militaries seizing the telecommunications and the government institutions and killing their opposition. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Trump did not do that. | |
| A bunch of fucking people being led into the Capitol is not a freaking coup, man. | ||
| A federal judge said otherwise. | ||
| But let's go on. | ||
| These are from ZeroHedge.com, from some of the premium users of the website. | ||
| Oh, good. | ||
| These are going to be great questions, I imagine. | ||
| Premium users of ZeroHedge. | ||
| Yeah, it's premium content, apparently. | ||
| So here's the first question. | ||
| All right. | ||
| The question is, the New York Times acknowledged that there were FBI informants in the Capitol on January 6th, and then they give a link to the New York Times article. | ||
| Given the agency's history of entrapment, is it a stretch that some agents may have provoked the riot? | ||
| And then there's a follow-up question. | ||
| Why was law enforcement so ill-prepared for the insurrection, in quotes, despite the presence of informants? | ||
| So the first part of the question is, is it a stretch that some agents may have provoked the riot? | ||
| So informants are something the FBI has been using for years, decades. | ||
| Is it illegal? | ||
| No. | ||
| They can do it as long as they do it within the legal means. | ||
| If an informant is in the cabinet taking the law, that doesn't mean that the FBI is behind it. | ||
| Informants are also people who live their lives. | ||
| Like, I could be an informant for the FBI. | ||
| I could go and murder somebody. | ||
| That doesn't mean the FBI had me murder that person. | ||
| So I think there's a lot of... | ||
| Misinformation there that gets conflated with facts. | ||
| And number two... | ||
| Is that the other guy? | ||
| Do I think it's possible that an FBI agent could have done it? | ||
| Sure, anything's possible, but put out the evidence. | ||
| There is an evidence of this. | ||
| The whole Ray Epps thing, show us the evidence that he actually works for the FBI. | ||
| He just said he orchestrated it. | ||
| He just said I orchestrated it. | ||
| Come arrest me. | ||
| Should I get arrested? | ||
| I just said I orchestrated it. | ||
| You're right. | ||
| He just said I orchestrated it. | ||
| Did Ray Epps say that he was an FBI agent? | ||
| You guys are just coming to that conclusion. | ||
| We're not saying he works for them. | ||
| If I had to guess, I'd say Southern Probability Law Center. | ||
| If Rehap set them up, why isn't a single other person there attested to that? | ||
| Out of the 250,000. | ||
| If he whispered into people's ears, if he was leading breach teams, why didn't any of the arrests, why didn't a single person... | ||
| I'm asking why I'm asking this though the next reasonable question why isn't a single person come out a test because we exposed him because he's he's the leader there yeah and he's there doing it on video he said I led this I did not answer my question I'm saying why anyone else come out I tested to this not a single person you know what a orchestra is right The conductor leads the symphony. | ||
| And all the musicians have to see the conductor and will tell you, that's my conductor. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Why doesn't anybody else say, that was my conductor? | |
| You get the sense from this first question that maybe they're going to be not so much pointed against Alex's side. | ||
| No, no, no, no. | ||
| Maybe a percentage nearing 100 of the Zero Hedge Premium subscribers are on one side of the issue. | ||
| Could be. | ||
| Good on bed for just putting it bluntly that the idea of some kind of Fed plot... | ||
| Could have been behind J6 since anything is possible, but they haven't provided any evidence. | ||
| It's good that he doesn't have to follow an impulse to pretend to say it's not impossible. | ||
| So that position would back him into a corner that he couldn't deal with. | ||
| Alex is pretty drunk, though. | ||
| Yep, that can also back you into a corner that you can't deal with. | ||
| Especially when you're dealing with someone who likes to fuck around and is pretty sharp. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yep. | |
| So the second part of that question was about unpreparedness. | ||
| Right. | ||
| The law enforcement's unpreparedness. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Which actually is a good question. | ||
| It is, and Destiny has a decent answer here, but then Alex... | ||
| Oh, my God. | ||
| This was one of the more shocking moments, I think, in the entire debate. | ||
| Okay, I'm listening. | ||
| I think the ill-preparedness came because Trump's deployment of the National Guard in the past, especially in D.C., had caused a lot of people to be uncomfortable with National Guard being present in the Capitol when the certification of what was happening. | ||
| So, as they were having conversations prior to establishing security, I think they took a lot of extraordinary bureaucratic measures to make it so that, I think that day, if the National Guard was going to be deployed, it either had to be, I think, Miller or Walker. | ||
| I think one of those two. | ||
| You had to be the direct authorization. | ||
| Let me respond briefly. | ||
| Which is novel. | ||
| We have you one hour ago saying Trump never called for National Guard and you just said they refused it. | ||
| I got your ass. | ||
| That's correct. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You got me. | |
| So when the National Guard was deployed, the only area that they were allowed to do. | ||
| They blocked it. | ||
| The Pentagon blocked Trump. | ||
| You just admitted Trump wanted it and didn't get it. | ||
| You got me. | ||
| They only deployed 340 people. | ||
| From an hour ago. | ||
| You said it wasn't true. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| You got me. | ||
| Got him! | ||
| Got him! | ||
| The scope of the mission. | ||
| The scope of the mission. | ||
| You know, Pete... | ||
| This is why Ashley Babbitt got shot. | ||
| You realize that, right? | ||
| I'm going to get shot? | ||
| No, people like Ashley Babbitt died because of people like you driving people onto this, right? | ||
| It might be funny for you. | ||
| I don't know if it's funny. | ||
| I'm murdering Ashley Babbitt? | ||
| You're more or less responsible with this kind of talk, yes. | ||
| Oh my God, I'm murdering. | ||
| Yes, play in a factual world. | ||
| At least tie yourself to the ground. | ||
| You said an hour ago that Trump never asked for a National Guard. | ||
| I can show 50 articles that's on record. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And then you just admitted it. | |
| Gotcha! | ||
|
unidentified
|
Gotcha! | |
| Guys, guys. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Yeah! | ||
| So here's the thing. | ||
| 340 people were authorized to be there, but it was an extraordinary process. | ||
| When you read the J6 Committee in the Situation Room and Sund and everybody else complaining, where's the National Guard? | ||
| Where's the National Guard? | ||
| There was a whole bunch of stupid bureaucratic red tape and optics concerns that people had to cut through to get them there. | ||
| So if you believe the official story and the 15 to 20 people... | ||
| One hour ago, he said Trump won the National Guard. | ||
| Now Trump won it, but he didn't get it for a good reason. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Gold! | |
| Gold! | ||
| So, yeah, I was pretty surprised that Destiny pulled out the You're the Reason Ashley Pabbit got shot. | ||
| I was a little surprised there, too. | ||
| But I generally would say that's not productive. | ||
| But in a situation like this, let it go. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| Let it fly. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| What do you have to lose? | ||
| You're almost never going to be in a position like this. | ||
| Destiny, he's clearly getting needled by Alex. | ||
| I would call him so many more names. | ||
| I would have been so much meaner. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So there's a big dunk there for Alex. | ||
| But I think he's just drunk. | ||
| That would have been so fun. | ||
| And the fact that if... | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Alright. | ||
| I understand that we're dealing with Ian, the moderator. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So it's not a moderator. | ||
| No. | ||
| But you gotta figure, even the most un-moderator moderator only allows you three woos. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Woo! | |
| Only three! | ||
| Unless you're Ric Flair. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And then you gotta let it go. | ||
| But, I mean, there's no debate. | ||
| That man is gonna woo. | ||
| There's no debate. | ||
| Or if you're Jeffrey Osborne. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| You know who that is? | ||
| Nope. | ||
|
unidentified
|
He had a song called Can You Woo Woo Woo? | |
| It's a good song. | ||
| All right. | ||
| So, Bed asks, this is where things like, I think of, like, I would say minute three things were off the rails. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| Like on our last episode. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Yeah, I was going to agree with you. | ||
| But here is where things have just broken the piñata and like... | ||
| Destiny has said, you're the reason that Ashley Pabby got shot. | ||
| And now Ben is emboldened to just go after Alex. | ||
| Here we go, Ben. | ||
| So you're claiming that this is staged. | ||
| You're claiming the FBI was behind it. | ||
| In 2019, you specifically said, I almost had a form of psychosis where I thought everything was staged. | ||
| So do you still have that psychosis? | ||
| I said almost a form. | ||
| Gotcha. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Woo! | |
| Got you again! | ||
| That's out of a larger context about when you're lied to. | ||
| It was in a court deposition. | ||
| I said a larger context of deposition. | ||
| I was lying. | ||
| You said you called Sandy Hooks a hoax, and you said it was fake because of this. | ||
| Sure, so let me talk now. | ||
| Okay, go ahead. | ||
| Yeah, so I said a larger context, which is a larger five-hour, eight-hour deposition, right? | ||
| So I just told the truth. | ||
| I said a larger context. | ||
| I'm explaining that the public's been lied to so much, there's a major loss in confidence where people then don't believe anything they're told, and that's dangerous. | ||
| That's not what you said. | ||
| That's not the context you said. | ||
| That's not the context you said. | ||
| I know what I said. | ||
| But I read it. | ||
| I read the deposition. | ||
| So put the full thing out. | ||
| This isn't looking good for Alex, because even Bed is kind of making fun of him. | ||
| Yeah, that's no good. | ||
| Obviously, Alex is half right about the context of the quote, but he's half lying. | ||
| He was talking about how the media lies so people don't believe what they're told, but he was also talking about himself and how that turned into a form of psychosis where he believed that everything was staged. | ||
| He still has that exact same relationship with reality that he did in 2012 when the shooting happened at Sandy Hook, and as he did in that deposition at that same time. | ||
| Whether or not the term psychosis is appropriate is another matter altogether. | ||
| But I do love how Alex is demanding that Bed cite the entire deposition in order for him to accept any of it. | ||
| Release all eight hours! | ||
| Yeah, Alex has been... | ||
| Dancing around most of this interview, not providing sources for anything, and just gloating about how Twitter's gonna get you and give you a source tomorrow. | ||
| Like, it's ridiculous. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Give me the full deposition. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Recite the deposition. | ||
| I think, genuinely, the smartest thing to do at this debate for, like, the Krasenstein would have been, like, moment one, just bring up Sandy Hook, and then let Alex just... | ||
| Try and defend himself into a spiral. | ||
| Well, maybe, but that's kind of disrespectful to the invitation, I guess. | ||
| It's un-guest-like. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Like, you're having a debate about January 6th, then you open it up with J6 or with Sandy Hook. | ||
| I'm just saying that you could get it in there early. | ||
| And you could even fit it in however you want in a less terrible way. | ||
| And it's just going to make him spiral. | ||
| He's not going to be able to hang. | ||
| Speaking of which. | ||
| Which is what we're about to listen to. | ||
| So put the full thing out. | ||
| I don't have it with me, but I read it. | ||
| The point is stop. | ||
| Somebody Google it. | ||
| You're scared to let me talk? | ||
| No, go ahead. | ||
| So, so, so. | ||
| That's a whole other PR firm thing. | ||
| Things out of context to blow that stuff up. | ||
| PR firm is telling you what you say in court under oath? | ||
| Let Alex finish the short question and then we're going to go back to the user's question. | ||
| Marilyn Albright told Leslie Stahl of 60 Minutes, I ordered 500,000 children killed because I thought it was a good thing to do. | ||
| I'd do it again. | ||
| She's a great person. | ||
| I question Jussie Smollett. | ||
| I question WMD's in Iraq. | ||
| I question everything. | ||
| And I'm proud of everything I've done. | ||
| And all that stuff is PR firm garbage. | ||
| When I talk about the general public, because the media lies about almost everything, loses trust in anything, that creates a general form of psychosis, and it's very dangerous. | ||
| I'm talking about that every day on my show. | ||
| And Joe Rogan just last week said, you know, Alex Jones isn't totally right, but he means to be right. | ||
| He's more informative than CNN. | ||
| They lie on purpose. | ||
| And the public has lost trust in the system. | ||
| That's dangerous. | ||
| What do you do? | ||
| So that was the full discussion. | ||
| No! | ||
| No! | ||
| Who is allowing this? | ||
| What is wrong with you? | ||
| word for that. | ||
| I didn't say that. | ||
| They wanted to put, like, now a 15-year-old video, back then it was like a nine-year-old video, of me as the Joker saying, All these horrible things. | ||
| Take drugs, kids. | ||
| You'll die. | ||
| It's great. | ||
| So kids wouldn't take drugs. | ||
| No, you wanted them to not take psych drugs. | ||
| I mean, what is happening? | ||
| They wanted to introduce that in court. | ||
| Go to bed, pops. | ||
| Jesus Christ. | ||
| Like, this is ridiculous. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I've been smeared. | ||
| Do you know what? | ||
| In my head, the moment he got into, like, five words into it, I immediately went back to, like, 90s movies and just, in my brain. | ||
| Somebody screamed, food fight! | ||
| And people started throwing food at each other. | ||
| And that made way more sense to me. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But, you know, Alex is at that point of, like, his adrenaline and booze-ish cycle where it's, like, it's not as amped at the moment. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| And he's like, I've been smeared by all these PR firms. | ||
| He needs the bathroom and a long pinky nail, if you know what I mean. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| So the reason that Bette is bringing this up is not so much to be like, hey, you said all this shit about Sandy Hook. | ||
| It's more to illustrate... | ||
| That Alex lied directly to bed on the Twitter space with Elon Musk when they were talking about Sandy Hook. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So he tries to explain this and then bedlam. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I was in that Twitter space with you, with Elon Musk. | ||
| What was it? | ||
| Four weeks ago or so. | ||
| And you tried to claim that you didn't push the Sandy Hook conspiracy theory. | ||
| We're getting a field here. | ||
| I'm basing this on the whole psychosis thing. | ||
| Yeah, Greenwald doesn't want to talk about it. | ||
| This is not in the scope of the discussion. | ||
| Yeah, we really got to stick to the question. | ||
| Focus on the user's question. | ||
| You lied in that space. | ||
| You did push it. | ||
| Was the Gulf of Tonkin in that? | ||
| You did. | ||
| I have the quote right here. | ||
| Let me read the quote. | ||
| Ed, we're done. | ||
| We're done. | ||
| I want to hear from Glenn. | ||
| Glenn's about to speak. | ||
| I gotta say this right now. | ||
| Let me finish. | ||
| Coward. | ||
| I said in the context of what I've done, I wasn't the platform for questioning a school shooting. | ||
| They dredged that up afterwards and I barely ever talked about it. | ||
| It wasn't even on our radar. | ||
| But you said it was fake. | ||
| No, no, if I'm on the air for... | ||
| You said after examining it for a year, you found that it was fake. | ||
| Alright, you know what? | ||
| That's it? | ||
| That's it? | ||
| We're done with this fucking conversation. | ||
| We're moving on to the user questions. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| That's some aggressive moderation. | ||
| Now I'm on his team. | ||
| Now, a weird thing that Ben should have done is instead of talking about Alex, what he said about Sandy Hook, be like, hey, remember when you were interviewed by Glenn Greenwald and you said you were drunk when he said these things about the families? | ||
| Hey, Glenn, you were there, confirmed that Alex said he was drunk! | ||
| And you just laughed. | ||
| On air! | ||
| And you were stoked about it because, and let me remind you, You're a great journalist. | ||
| Yes, very much so. | ||
| So speaking of a great journalist, Glenn chimes in here because Ian has screamed and quieted the room. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What's up with this fucking conversation? | |
| I feel like when you're a good moderator, you never have to get to that level. | ||
| Shouldn't have to scream. | ||
| No. | ||
| Nope. | ||
| Shouldn't have to, like, essentially verbally pull out a bat. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| At the very least, you shouldn't have to resort to fucking. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So anyway, here's Glenn. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| We're moving on to the user questions. | ||
| As told, Glenn, you had something to say? | ||
| Glenn, please. | ||
| Yeah, first of all, I want to say that we are out of time here because it's been three hours. | ||
| But I did just want to say I do think that attack on Alex is a bullshit attack. | ||
| We are here because we want to talk about... | ||
|
unidentified
|
We're talking about something. | |
| And to try and make it about Alex when there are six people here presenting all kinds of evidence that you're not equipped to deal with. | ||
| I think it's just a pathetic way to try and end this debate. | ||
| And the last thing I want to say is it's really giving like a kind of amazingly vivid mindset into the minds of Trump era liberals who have really come to see. | ||
| The U.S. security state and the courts and prosecutors as their political allies in their war that they're waging against people who disagree with them. | ||
| And they have this, like, very romanticized view of what the FBI is, what the DOJ is, how the court systems work, how the federal government works. | ||
| And all of this reveals this so well because what's happening here is so manifest, which is that all of these agencies are being abused because the Trump movement is considered the gravest threat to establishment power in this country, which is why the I would prefer | ||
| not to have to use my voice. | ||
| I think you did a great job. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| We'll stay. | ||
| Glenn, give us a three-minute closing comment. | ||
| All I'm trying to say is... | ||
| Give us a three-minute closing comment, but I'm going to keep talking. | ||
| Oh, my God. | ||
| So I was thinking about, first of all, Glenn is saying his sort of closing comments as he did the entire debate, condescending as hell. | ||
| But I was thinking about Ian's shutting that down so aggressively. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| And I thought that was strange, because I've not seen that in any other... | ||
| Debate ever? | ||
| No, or this debate. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah, true. | ||
| So Zero Hedge is the subscription service that's paying for this debate. | ||
| And coincidentally, they are also why Alex got sued, though indirectly. | ||
| Right, that is true. | ||
| Owen Schroer's source that he expanded on in his video that defamed Neil Heslund was an article that was published on Zero Hedge. | ||
| Alex then replayed that video and discussed the story on his own show, mirroring claims about Heslund and his murdered child. | ||
| Had it not been for this, it's likely that the statute of limitations would not have allowed the families to... | ||
| to Alex, though their pain and suffering because of his actions still continued. | ||
| That is true. | ||
| Zero Hedge posted that article as an attack on Hesslin appearing on Megyn Kelly's show, which also featured an interview with Alex. | ||
| Owen and Alex picked it up That's a complicated-ass relationship that underlies this debate. | ||
| I don't necessarily think that someone told Ian he needed to shut this down right away, just in case Bed was going to bring up Zero Hedge's role in Alex's suit, but he was very forceful. | ||
| More so than any time in this debate. | ||
| But I think the most likely explanation, I don't think that that's what's happening. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| I think that a producer probably was telling him to get to questions, though, and shut this down. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Because they had promised subscribers that they could ask questions. | ||
| Yeah, this is 100%. | ||
| This is so far off track. | ||
| 100% a, we told people to spend money for this. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And now we are not giving it to them. | ||
| That's bad business. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So Ben tries to just come in and be like, look. | ||
| I'm trying to illustrate that he lied to me. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And this is an indication of trustworthiness. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| And then Alex lies. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| The reason I went back to that is because in that Twitter space, you said that you didn't push it. | ||
| You said that you just regurgitated other people's information. | ||
| And that's not true. | ||
| No, that's not true. | ||
| I want to shut this down. | ||
| I want to move to the next thing. | ||
| It's not that I'm scared of this. | ||
| I'm sick of it. | ||
| I didn't make my bones on this. | ||
| I barely ever talked about it. | ||
| They entered us 22 minutes in these court cases over a decade. | ||
| 22 minutes, dude. | ||
| No, I didn't. | ||
| That's not what I'm doing. | ||
| You guys bring it up. | ||
| And fine. | ||
| Madeline Albright said she killed 500,000 kids. | ||
| She'd do it again. | ||
| I killed no kids. | ||
| Come on, guys. | ||
| Let's talk about what the people are paying. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We have some legitimate people. | |
| Glenn says he wants to leave. | ||
| I love when Greenwald... | ||
|
unidentified
|
No one's going to be forced to hang out with me tonight. | |
| Okay, we're going to the second question. | ||
| Darren, did you want to follow up? | ||
| I wanted to answer the user's question. | ||
| I'm sure you did. | ||
| So I've never been more sure of anything than Glenn was getting paid by the hour. | ||
| He shut that down faster than my therapist when time is up. | ||
| We're in three hours! | ||
| Gotta go! | ||
| Bye! | ||
| He didn't even really say goodbye. | ||
| It was just like, it's been three hours, that's why I signed up for good luck with your dub subscriber questions. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| That's awesome. | ||
| Yeah, that was a power move. | ||
| If there is any kind of payoff to this long time of this... | ||
| Fucking episode that we're doing. | ||
| It is just that Glenn Greenwald is just like, I'm out. | ||
| Fuck this. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Man. | |
| Because, you know, you and I even talked about, like, why would anybody stick around for something this unproductive? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And Glenn leaving at the three hour mark. | ||
| Tells you pretty much all you need to know. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I signed up for three hours. | ||
| Oh, we'll stick around. | ||
| Well, because they're there. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Ah, yeah. | |
| It might be more glaring for them to walk out. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Exactly. | |
| Glenn can turn off the camera and just be like, fuck this. | ||
| That was the idea. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| So, Destiny and Darren pick things up a little bit with the question of like, hey, it seems like every source of information that you don't like is biased, right? | ||
| That's kind of the way this is going. | ||
| That's how the game works. | ||
| Why wouldn't McCarthy put any Republicans on the J6 committee and investigate this? | ||
| Well, McCarthy isn't exactly someone who's aggressively interested in pursuing the truth on this either. | ||
| Okay, why not appoint a special counsel or appoint something separate then from Congress? | ||
| Well, I think that would be a fantastic idea, but again... | ||
| Why didn't Trump do it? | ||
| Why didn't Trump do it? | ||
| Trump's not in a position to do it right now. | ||
| Yeah, but right after J6 before he gets kicked out, why not appoint a social council? | ||
| Or why not in the days before if he thinks that there's... | ||
| I mean, there is not a really window of opportunity for that to happen. | ||
| A lot of other stuff is going on. | ||
| Doesn't it suck then that you can provide absolutely no smoking guns? | ||
| I provided a ton of evidence. | ||
| No smoking guns. | ||
| I provided overwhelming evidence. | ||
| You have not provided evidence for anything. | ||
| Overwhelming evidence. | ||
| You've given a lot of stories and now you've got an escape for every single way that you might... | ||
| No, I've been long a proponent for an investigative committee, but not the sham J6 committee. | ||
| Well, they tried. | ||
| No, the J6 committee is total sham. | ||
| Why is the J6 committee a sham? | ||
| Well, you really want to hear a good-faith answer to that? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Why it's partisan? | ||
| Well, let's start with Benny Thompson. | ||
| Now the answer's no. | ||
| I know the people on it were all partisan. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| But that's because McCarthy wouldn't put forth his nominees after Pelosi said no to two of five. | ||
| Well, first of all, I think those two should have been allowed. | ||
| I'm not asking you that. | ||
| I'm asking why didn't McCarthy put forth two other ones? | ||
| Because he didn't want to legitimize a process that was totally illegitimate. | ||
| So how convenient for you then that now we can also say the entire J6 committee has hundreds. | ||
| No, it's not convenient. | ||
| It is convenient for you. | ||
| It's convenient for the regime not to have a legitimate and Disinterested fact-finding commission to truly get to the bottom of the real questions that matter in relation to January 6th. | ||
| But there is no disinterested fact-finding. | ||
| You guys say Comey was biased, even though he was a lifelong Republican. | ||
| You say Raffensperger was biased, even though he was a lifelong Republican. | ||
| You guys say that Barr was biased, even though he's been a lifelong Trump supporter and a Republican. | ||
| Yeah, you say Ray is biased. | ||
| Like, every single person... | ||
| Yeah, so then there are no unbiased fact-findings. | ||
| I didn't say there are none. | ||
| I thought the specific names you mentioned, absolutely. | ||
| And any other names that you would have mentioned at any given point in time? | ||
| The only unbiased sources are those who have explicit and blind following of Trump. | ||
| Don't you get it? | ||
| That was incredible. | ||
| That was a beautiful moment. | ||
| That truly was. | ||
| And it only gets better, because Destiny asks a follow-up question I think is really good, and that is like... | ||
| Who could do this? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Who could investigate this? | ||
| Who would be able to investigate this? | ||
| I think there are some people who could. | ||
| I think Jim Jordan who could. | ||
| Jim Jordan was there! | ||
| Jim Jordan was literally part of the investigation. | ||
| I would say for there to be a legitimate committee, it would have to include people who are genuinely interested in pursuing not only the questions that Benny Thompson... | ||
| And the hyper-partisan Democrats wanted to find out. | ||
| But people who are sympathetic to the other side who would be willing to pursue the questions that I've raised and have been raised that were not addressed at all in the committee because all they were interested in was demonizing Trump and setting up a criminal proceeding for Trump. | ||
| They weren't interested in getting to the bottom of the questions. | ||
| Why was there uniquely poor security? | ||
| What was going on with the level of federal infiltration? | ||
| These questions are all asked as part of this. | ||
| It's an 847-page report. | ||
| I invite you to read it at some point. | ||
| Absolutely not. | ||
| He could have put five Republicans that he chose on that committee. | ||
| But because Nancy Pelosi said no to two of them, I think Banks and Jordan, that were actively being investigated or would have been the subjects of the J6 committee, he said no to anything. | ||
| And now we get to say it was all a sham, even though the majority of the people interviewed were Republicans, even though, as was stated earlier, every single person knew Trump. | ||
| You're banking a lot on the Republican issue, but it shouldn't be a surprise to you. | ||
| Many Republicans' institutional apparatus of the party. | ||
| It's not necessarily friendly to Trump. | ||
| Do you understand that some Republicans don't like Trump enough? | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Darren. | ||
| Darren. | ||
| I like the question of, like, who could investigate this? | ||
| And he's like, well, the committee would have to include conspirators. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, it's like the committee would have to include the people who committed the crime. | ||
| Yes, definitely. | ||
| We need some moles. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, that is just... | ||
| It's remarkable. | ||
| You could not more obviously give up the game without just explicitly being like, do you not understand what I'm saying to you? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Are you willfully obtuse or do you not understand? | ||
| Yeah, I mean, it would be like Beatty. | ||
| At this point, I would be, you know, an hour ago, three hours ago, I'm with everybody else going like, Are you being insane for saying all the stuff you're saying? | ||
| Now I'm with Beatty being like, how are you not getting me? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Do you not understand? | ||
| Are you not entertained? | ||
| No. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| So you might not be entertained because they seem to be able to have conversation. | ||
| I assume Alex is out. | ||
| Yes, Alex is on another iced tea break. | ||
| But he comes back. | ||
| Gotcha. | ||
| If every single person in government, if every Republican, if every Democrat, if every judge, if every person in the United States that is in Trump's peripheral... | ||
| He ends up hating Trump or not wanting to work with Trump. | ||
| At what point do you say... | ||
| Well, we're not saying every... | ||
| At what point do you say... | ||
| Christopher Wray is not... | ||
| At what point do you just say... | ||
| I've been gone for 10 minutes. | ||
| Let me respond. | ||
| I'm listening. | ||
| You can't just run back and you're coming off, okay? | ||
| Yes, he can. | ||
| At what point can we not say maybe Trump was actually genuinely a horrible person? | ||
| Or maybe Trump actually genuinely tried to circumvent legal processes in order to coup the government? | ||
| Or at least whatever you would call him asking Pence to unilaterally elect the government for him. | ||
| Biden is trying to make it his number one campaign issue about January 6th. | ||
| It should be the number one campaign issue. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| Not inflation, not open borders, not human supply. | ||
| You want a president trying to circumvent the peaceful transfer of power for the first time in U.S. history? | ||
| This actually takes me to the next question. | ||
| This is going to be our final question of the night. | ||
| No, Trump's not been convicted of anything. | ||
| So yeah, welcome back. | ||
| So it's fun that we have one more question, because we've only had one other one. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| I think they intended to get to more, or there are only two subscribers. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It's possible. | |
| But this question is not fruitful, it doesn't lead to anything, and Alex just ends up rambling. | ||
| The question is, will Destiny address, quote, is white supremacy the biggest domestic threat faced by the United States? | ||
| And I opened it up to the panel after you gave an answer there, Steven. | ||
| Um, domestic threat? | ||
| I don't know how the FBI judges domestic threat. | ||
| It wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of crossover with, like, white supremacy groups and then being, like, organized like a domestic threat, but my guess would be domestic threats in the U.S. is probably fairly low to the total security of the U.S., so I don't really care that much about it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I don't know. | |
| But that's the official policy, is white supremacism is the number one threat. | ||
| What is that? | ||
| That's not a policy. | ||
| That's a statement. | ||
| No, that's an executive order in June of 2021 put out by the White House. | ||
| What are the negative policy choices or what are the bad things that are happening because of that declaration? | ||
| They try to skew crime numbers. | ||
| They say everything is that. | ||
| They say everything is that. | ||
| What do you mean? | ||
| You would not count crime by black people anymore? | ||
| Didn't we just get all of the hate crimes against Asian people? | ||
| No, the guy says the number one crime is white people. | ||
| They say the number one crime is white people. | ||
| The number one crime. | ||
| Statistically by manipulating the numbers. | ||
| This is the number one. | ||
| I don't think the FBI is in charge of manipulating the numbers. | ||
| I didn't say involved in crime statistics. | ||
| I'm pretty sure you can go to the federal... | ||
| There's a name for the site that has like... | ||
| I don't believe you're like hiding under a rock somewhere. | ||
| You got to know that you gave a speech for an hour yesterday. | ||
| Saying the MAGA people are terrorists. | ||
| They're about to take over. | ||
| This guy is fucked up. | ||
| This guy is... | ||
| How is this happening? | ||
| How is he aware? | ||
| Man. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Is there a law... | ||
| There had to have been a rule that you can't point out that Alex is drunk off his ass, right? | ||
| There had to have been. | ||
| Because the first thing I'm doing is going, Alex, you're slurring and drunk off your ass. | ||
| You were really speedy at the beginning of this. | ||
| You are drunk now! | ||
| According to the rules... | ||
| You made an insane vibe shift. | ||
| Of all the conspiracy theories, of all the... | ||
| If this happened, then this happened. | ||
| Of all the causes and effects we have discussed tonight, there is only one that is inviolable. | ||
| You started drinking, and now you are drunk. | ||
| Yeah, and I think that, you know, I would suggest that, you know, I made some blanket statements about Alex being on substances and stuff like that. | ||
| And I guess, really, I can't prove that 100%. | ||
| There's a lot of circumstantial evidence. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But I would say that he better be drunk. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Because otherwise, I don't even know why. | ||
| Otherwise he's not okay. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Otherwise he's not healthy and people need to help him. | ||
| It better be stimulants and booze. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| If you sound like that, it should be because you chose to. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And it happens mysteriously after a bunch of iced tea brooks. | ||
| Yes, yes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
If you sound like that. | |
| And you have a habit of drinking and you said that you slandered the Sandy Hook families because you were drunk on air. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Maybe, yeah. | ||
| You're drunk. | ||
| If you sound like that and you didn't mean to, you should go to a hospital! | ||
| That's a hospital! | ||
| That might be a stroke! | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So Destiny makes a scandalous comment here. | ||
| You just said it's good that Biden is running on January 6th. | ||
| I think January 6th is a huge deal, yes. | ||
| The president trying to circumvent the peaceful transfer of power is a really big issue. | ||
| And that's why he can't be allowed to be voted for. | ||
| No, that's not why. | ||
| He's not allowed to be voted for. | ||
| He's claiming you can't vote for him. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Trump is claiming they want to steal an election. | |
| So we've got to take him on the ballot. | ||
| We have to be clear about what's really happening. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Standard Democrat voter. | ||
| These people don't care about the so-called insurrection. | ||
| That's not Biden's audience. | ||
| Biden's audience is to speak in support. | ||
| of this phony legal theory that's being served as a pretext to remove him from the ballots and therefore, you know, in the defense of... | ||
| I agree. | ||
| He's trying to rally the deep state saying Trump's going to persecute us and arrest us... | ||
| Rally the deep state? | ||
| If we don't stop him because they've committed all these crimes. | ||
| They work for him. | ||
| The fact is, the Supreme Court's looking at it. | ||
| They actually decided to take the case, so it doesn't matter what any of us think. | ||
| The Supreme Court's going to rule on it. | ||
| And I think, you know, whatever they decide is what we're going to live with. | ||
| Well, let me ask this. | ||
| Well, that's also stupid. | ||
| What do you mean what happens? | ||
| Well, what do you think? | ||
| They've still got criminal investigations, criminal trials. | ||
| So you mean if he gets reelected before being sentenced, if he is convicted? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I think he just takes over being president. | ||
| He'll pardon himself or give the presidency. | ||
| And I don't think he didn't persecute his political opposition when he was in. | ||
| I don't think he's going to try to do it. | ||
| I think he asked Barr to investigate Hillary. | ||
| Quite the opposite. | ||
| Trump's own bureaucracies were undermining him. | ||
| Yakov Smirnoff in this! | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, that's amazing. | |
| Yakov Tito's, because that's Alex's brand of... | ||
| Anyway, controversial statement that Destiny makes three and a half hours into this debate is that January 6th matters. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Ridiculous. | ||
| Yep. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yep. | |
| So Alex has that conception that Biden is speaking to the deep state through speeches and stuff like that. | ||
| It's just more of the secret messages that he picks up on. | ||
| He says this a lot about various things that all these globalists do. | ||
| They're like, oh no, this is messaging to warn people that Trump is about to punish them. | ||
| It's all just, I mean, delusions. | ||
| I just like the idea that, sure. | ||
| The deep state works for him, but Biden still has to rally them. | ||
| Right. | ||
| He can't be like, hey, guys, here's our orders now. | ||
| He's got to be like, oh, let's do it, fellas! | ||
| He needs to get them excited. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You know what he does? | ||
| You know what he does? | ||
| Every quarter, he takes them on a team-building exercise, do trust exercises, trust falls, ropes course. | ||
| You know what I was just thinking? | ||
| What's that? | ||
| You know what? | ||
| I'm glad that the deep state feels good about what they're doing. | ||
| You know? | ||
| Because I'm sure they could get down. | ||
| It's a lot of work. | ||
| Yeah, and sometimes, morally, maybe not even the best kind. | ||
| Dubious at best. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| So, you get a little rally every now and again? | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's good. | |
| That's job security. | ||
| If anything Alex is saying is to be believed, they don't sleep. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They don't sleep. | |
| They work around the clock. | ||
| It's a ridiculous schedule they're forced to keep. | ||
| And they don't have any fun. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| And they're borderline blind, but also they can see into the future. | ||
| They delight in evil. | ||
| So, maybe they do have fun. | ||
| You know, if you like what you do. | ||
| You never work a day in your life. | ||
| That's not true. | ||
| Unless you need to be rallied by Joe Biden. | ||
| So, here comes what I would say is probably the last substance-based clip that we have. | ||
| Okay, okay. | ||
| There's 38 more clips. | ||
| Just one more after this. | ||
| But this is the debate fizzling to a close very depressingly. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But everyone can see the establishments after Trump. | |
| No? | ||
| Yeah, Hillary's emails. | ||
| Yeah, Hillary's emails was under Biden, right? | ||
| What about the Hunter Biden investigation? | ||
| There's no acknowledgement there? | ||
| Hunter Biden investigation? | ||
| No. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That's Biden's DOJ. | ||
| Under Biden. | ||
| He was charged. | ||
| He was convicted on the ground. | ||
| And that's because the Democrats want him to step down for Newsom. | ||
| So now the Democrats don't want Biden to step down. | ||
| That's admitted. | ||
| Who are the Democrats? | ||
| The debate continues. | ||
| Who are the Democrats? | ||
| It's been all over the news. | ||
| And they're putting pressure on him to do it. | ||
| You're saying that's made up? | ||
| He's not going to step down. | ||
| How does he step down? | ||
| Because you still need to have a primary. | ||
| And it's past the deadline. | ||
| He's frozen out the other candidates in his primary. | ||
| The deadline has passed, so if he was to step down right now, Harris would likely be who the nominee would be. | ||
| It's too late for Newsom. | ||
| He'd miss out on several states to go. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We've really answered that question. | |
| We hammered that one right to the ground. | ||
| Ladies and gentlemen, tonight is coming to a close. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Zero Hedge, thank you so much for putting this debate on. | |
| So, interesting point that is brought up that is, oh, you're talking about all this persecution of Trump and all this unfairness, and Hunter Biden is being prosecuted by his dad's Department of Justice. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| But in the right wing's defense, we control them. | ||
| But then, this is contextualized as, oh yeah, of course they're doing that because the secret deep state is trying to get Biden to step down, so... | ||
| Gavin Newsom can come in. | ||
| Oh my god. | ||
| And then Ben explains the logistical reasons why this is stupid. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Alex has no response. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Nope. | |
| And then it just ends. | ||
| Yeah, I think we've nailed that question. | ||
| Good night, everybody. | ||
| Zero Hedge forever. | ||
| Oh my god. | ||
| What an ineffectual drunk. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| So here's Alex's closing thought on the debate. | ||
| No, I want to congratulate everybody for being here. | ||
| This has been a great debate. | ||
| Strongly disagree. | ||
| I genuinely can't think of a thing less true than what he just said. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Congratulations, everybody. | ||
| We had a good debate. | ||
| So we come to the end of this, and I don't know if we learned much about January 6th. | ||
| I mean, we learned a bit about some of the claims that... | ||
| People like Alex and Glenn and Darren have about their feelings and some opinions that they have that aren't substantiated. | ||
| And some of the allusions to past misdeeds by the FBI used to imply that they must have done everything this time. | ||
| No substance is gained at all through this. | ||
| But, having gone through all of it... | ||
| I think Destiny did a fine job. | ||
| I think it did about as good a job as anybody could do in any of these circumstances. | ||
| Probably. | ||
| And I think that Bed did better than anyone possibly could have imagined. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Probably. | |
| It doesn't matter in terms of swaying anyone's opinion. | ||
| Not at all. | ||
| But it was a good job. | ||
| In an impossible situation, they did something. | ||
| And they did okay. | ||
| I mean this wholeheartedly. | ||
| I think... | ||
| That it will be a more effective strategy to, rather than try and debate the right wing, to try and rope them into bets wherein you play games unrelated and they have to abide by the rule by the winner, right? | ||
| That's fascinating. | ||
| Yeah, so instead of this whole, like, let's argue about J6. | ||
| Uh-uh. | ||
| Game of Family Feud. | ||
| You got Destiny in bed on one side. | ||
| You got Alex. | ||
| You got Glenn Greenwald. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You got Baby. | |
| Back to the Family Feud thing. | ||
| Oh wait, Family Feud's a different game than Double Dare. | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| Because you were going on about Double Dare last time. | ||
| Sorry. | ||
| Continue, please. | ||
| No, I can't. | ||
| I have been so thoroughly shut down. | ||
| I thought when you were saying bets, you were talking about like, you know, I bet you... | ||
| Like, about a certain fact. | ||
| Yeah, okay, I'll take you that. | ||
| And then that there's some kind of a structured, like, pay-up. | ||
| Sure, I would go for that. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| I would like that. | ||
| I was thinking more like, listen, we're never going to come to the, like, well, J6, blah, blah, blah, never going to happen. | ||
| But we play a family feud game. | ||
| Whoever wins, J6 happened or it didn't. | ||
| The end. | ||
| No more argument. | ||
| No conversation. | ||
| Everyone has to abide. | ||
| Family feud. | ||
| Win or lose. | ||
| Winner takes all. | ||
| Who's hosting? | ||
| Me, obviously. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| Well, I think this is self-serving a little bit. | ||
| You know, I don't think Steve Harvey can do it. | ||
| Not after what Kat said. | ||
| Not after what Kat said. | ||
| So... | ||
| I also want to make this abundantly clear. | ||
| When I say I think that they did a great job or a good job in an unwinnable, impossible situation where nothing is really going to stick, I am in no way saying that I would do a better job or that anybody could do a better job. | ||
| I don't think that this is a productive enterprise, this engagement in this arena. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Because, for the most part... | ||
| What they're doing is stepping into a world where a fictional reality Is real. | ||
| Predominant. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And trying to argue using logic, reason, and all of those things that don't apply really to the fake reality. | ||
| There is a different form of honesty. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| There's a different form of logic and fact and evidence. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And the two don't overlap. | ||
| So even though you're doing a good job in this space to people who can see, like, ah, I can track this thought. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| This is what you're saying. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It doesn't really make a dent. | ||
| But I couldn't do better, and I don't think anybody could. | ||
| I mean, yeah, I don't think there is a way... | ||
|
unidentified
|
So I'm not looking down. | |
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| It's not to say that there is a... | ||
| Yeah, the problem with evaluating a performance is you can only evaluate it within the context of what's happening. | ||
| So Destiny did a better job than the Krasensteins. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| The Krasensteins did a better job than Glenn Greenwald. | ||
| Greenwald did a better job than Beatty. | ||
| And Beatty did a better job than Alex. | ||
| And debatably, Alex did a better job than Ian. | ||
| But Alex won by a wide mile, and you cannot win a debate whenever it is totally fine for someone to get more than three woos in before a moderator goes. | ||
| You can't do it. | ||
| You're not going to do it. | ||
| You can't! | ||
| Yeah, and when you're in a situation where you're in that person's studio, they're friends with the people who are paying for it, the moderator is clearly on their side, it's okay for him to step outside in the middle of the debate and get drunk and smoke cigarettes. | ||
| Right, I mean, like, it's a ridiculous proposition. | ||
| Yeah, before he was drunk, he said, I will dominate you. | ||
| Yes, multiple times. | ||
| This is not a debate! | ||
| That was before he was drunk! | ||
| And when it's, like, acceptable for him to present as evidence, Look on Twitter tomorrow. | ||
| It's absurd. | ||
| No, you can't evaluate a performance like that. | ||
| No, not really. | ||
| And I think that there is no such thing as winning in a circumstance where the behavior that Alex is displaying isn't penalized. | ||
| Right! | ||
| And that is an inherent problem with the false reality, because inside that false reality, his behavior is somehow not a problem, and it's not condemnable. | ||
| Yeah, I think the problem that we keep coming back to, and I know it's so hard to get around, because you can't. | ||
| You can't get around this problem, is that if you want to turn things into win or lose, in any conflict with Alex, Alex is going to win. | ||
| Based on the Alex rules, he makes the game when you engage with him. | ||
| That is, he's in his studio. | ||
| He's in, you know, he's drunk. | ||
| You can't even, what are you, what is he going to say, what are you going to say afterwards tomorrow? | ||
| Ah, I got you yesterday. | ||
| He'll be like, ah, I was drunk. | ||
| It doesn't matter! | ||
| Well, he probably wouldn't even. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And anytime you make a point about anything, he can just be like, Biden's speech last night. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| And then he will think that you don't have a response to that, then he won. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| He won because the game is rigged. | ||
| And it's dumb. | ||
| And it's dumb! | ||
| It's for him to win! | ||
| But, like I said, as good as it could be. | ||
| Yeah! | ||
| And I think that there were a couple of points where even things that I... | ||
| Didn't really expect were made. | ||
| Agreed. | ||
| Like, you killed Ashley Babbitt. | ||
| That one was good. | ||
| Shocking. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yep. | |
| The point of, like, hey, why are you so obsessed with thinking that Ray Epps texts mean something, but somehow the Proud Boys ones don't? | ||
| Right. | ||
| That's a really fine point. | ||
| In a logical debate, that would have been a headshot. | ||
| It's impossible to get around that one. | ||
| But, yeah, it's interesting. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| No, I believe... | ||
| That, you know, and the family feud thing is a joke, but the only way to talk, the only way to conflict with Alex has to be Marshall or outside of the realm of his game, you know? | ||
| It has to be something where he's not allowed to talk in this way, in an effectual manner, you know what I mean? | ||
| Yeah, but I would argue... | ||
| If you play basketball, then it doesn't matter what Alex thinks about where the ball goes. | ||
| If it goes in the hoop, you get a point. | ||
| Do you remember playing pick-up games with your friends and they'd argue whether something was a three-pointer or not? | ||
| That would be Alex. | ||
| No, but nope. | ||
| Don't care. | ||
| You know, there is something to that. | ||
| And you see the way that Alex is even disrespectful and tried to turn court into his own show. | ||
| So even outside somewhat of these structures where he has these just... | ||
| Almost comical defense assistance built in. | ||
| Even then, he will still try to play the same games until the point where he is not allowed to. | ||
| And that becomes a problem. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And the illustration of him as an ineffectual, uninformed idiot that is this, this should, in any right-thinking world, erode his fan base considerably. | ||
| You would think. | ||
| People should see this and be like, Holy shit. | ||
| Look at this idiot. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| They won't. | ||
|
unidentified
|
People... | |
| Tucker Carlson said that he lies all the time and no one cared. | ||
| I mean, it should lower Alex's estimation at the very least in these other people's mind. | ||
| Not necessarily to the point in personal life where I'm sure they can't imagine him being a good person. | ||
| Maybe they do, but I don't care. | ||
| If I were Darren, I would have some questions. | ||
| But more in a like... | ||
| This is an irresponsible booking. | ||
| This is a bad booking. | ||
| As a booker, it's just a bad booking. | ||
| Even hours and hours ago, at the beginning of our coverage of this, I explained why Alex is an irresponsible choice to have on this panel, even without considering any of his behavior. | ||
| The circumstances of his very close connections to the people who did the insurrection. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Like, this is not some... | ||
| Oh, the fact that he shares a lawyer with Joe Biggs. | ||
| You know, like, these are things that are like, no, we cannot, just on a basic level, trust you to have an unbiased and uninvested answer in this. | ||
| That Roger Stone went to prison for Trump, was pardoned by Trump, and then went to work with Alex! | ||
| Um, no, didn't he... | ||
| Wait, was it? | ||
| The work was more before. | ||
| It was the other way. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| He went to work for Mike Lindell more after that, because Alex couldn't afford him. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| That was the one. | ||
| Yeah, but still quite a conflict. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Anyway, we come to the end of this, and fuck, this has been too long. | ||
| I'm glad. | ||
| We're done. | ||
| Yes, we're done. | ||
| Never to speak of debates again. | ||
| This was a bad idea, maybe, on my part, I think. | ||
| But it started... | ||
| And, you know, you've got to finish it. | ||
| You know, the original pitch, I think the very first pitch, was we'll do the documentary treatment. | ||
| We'll do it over the course of a week. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yep. | |
| And then the second pitch was two parts, and here we are. | ||
| I just thought that we couldn't spend an entire week. | ||
| I totally get it. | ||
| So anyway, we're done. | ||
| We'll be back with another episode that will not be this long. | ||
| No. | ||
| At some point. | ||
| Probably. | ||
| Maybe Friday. | ||
| Could be. | ||
| Eh, who knows. | ||
| But until then, we have a website. | ||
| Indeed we do. | ||
| It's knowledgefight.com. | ||
| Yep, we're also on Blue Sky. | ||
| We are on Blue Sky. | ||
| It's Knowledge Fight. | ||
| Yep, we'll be back. | ||
| But until then, I'm Neo. | ||
| I'm Leo. | ||
| I'm DZX Clark. | ||
| Uh, fuck. | ||
| I wish I could- Yeah! | ||
|
unidentified
|
Woo! | |
| Wait, no! | ||
| That's also in the clip! | ||
| I wish I could make that into audio. | ||
| You twirling the pen. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| If only I could do that. | ||
| Imagine Jordan twirling a pen. | ||
| Woo, yeah! | ||
| And now here comes the sex robots. | ||
| Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. | ||
| Thanks for holding. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Alex. | |
| I'm a first-time caller. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm a huge fan. | |
| I love your work. |
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