Today, Dan tells Jordan all about a fun new Project Camelot adventure where Sweary Kerry interviews a guy about Helen Duncan, noted spiritualist from the 1930's. Tune in to hear two adults pretend Helen wasn't a con-artist, stay for massive lore reveals about Kerry's roster of guests.
| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. | ||
| Thanks for holding. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Alex. | |
| I'm a first-time caller. | ||
| I'm a huge fan. | ||
| I love your work. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I love you. | |
| Hey, everybody. | ||
| Welcome back to Knowledge Fight. | ||
| I'm Dan. | ||
| I'm Jordan. | ||
| We're a couple dudes who like to sit around, drink novelty beverages, and talk a little about Alex Jones. | ||
| Indeed we are. | ||
| Dan? | ||
| Hey. | ||
| Dan, were you to describe this podcast to our eventual overlords as they try and murder us one by one slowly? | ||
| And they were like... | ||
| Oh, you guys do a podcast? | ||
| It's about gardening! | ||
| It's about gardening! | ||
| Oh, shit! | ||
| I love podcasts about gardening! | ||
| I love podcasts about gardening! | ||
| No, you don't really. | ||
| You're just saying that in order to try and scare me into saying what it's really about. | ||
| No! | ||
| I would never do that! | ||
| Let me listen to this podcast about gardening. | ||
| Hey, everybody! | ||
| We're gardening today! | ||
| I don't know anything about gardening. | ||
| I know so much about it. | ||
| You need soil. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Water. | |
| This is a great podcast. | ||
| You shall survive the apocalypse. | ||
| Sweet. | ||
| Thank God. | ||
|
unidentified
|
All right. | |
| We made it. | ||
| Good call. | ||
| Actually, what it is, now that that guy stopped listening. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Thank God. | ||
| This is a podcast where I know quite a bit about Alex Jones. | ||
| And I only know what you tell me about Alex Jones. | ||
| It does not matter today, because today we're going to take a little Project Camelot adventure. | ||
| So, for those of you who don't listen to every episode of our show, when... | ||
| What are you doing? | ||
| Every now and again, often on Wednesdays, we like to take a little bit of a break from Alex Jones and his drivel, and check out other con men around the world of the weird right-wing internet. | ||
| We also enjoy taking a break from reality itself. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| So when we need to do that, we check in with Project Camelot, a YouTube series where... | ||
| Carrie Cassidy, also known as Swearie Carrie. | ||
| Swearie Carrie? | ||
| She sweared once. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I know. | |
| That's ridiculous. | ||
| It's perfect. | ||
| I love it. | ||
| She interviews people about the secret space program, and today we've got a very interesting, even departure from that to go into. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Which is super fun. | ||
| Delightful. | ||
| He's not a delightful guest. | ||
| This guy's a monster. | ||
| But. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Of course. | |
| It is. | ||
| This is. | ||
| Man, this is going to be fun. | ||
| All right. | ||
| All right. | ||
| I want to hear this. | ||
| This is going to be fun. | ||
| Let's do it. | ||
| You know what else is going to be fun? | ||
| Saying hello to a nude donor. | ||
| What? | ||
| Donor? | ||
| Stomp donor? | ||
| Well, you know what? | ||
| Technically, they are all sponsors at the end of the day. | ||
| Spiritually, you are a sponsor. | ||
| We appreciate it. | ||
| You are all better than if Coca-Cola gave us a shit ton of money. | ||
| No, it's not. | ||
| Oh, it's not? | ||
| There'd be a lot of money. | ||
| No, you know what? | ||
| I do appreciate it because this comes from the heart and it comes from people actually supporting what we do as opposed to Coca-Cola just trying to get in on our cachet. | ||
| Unless Coca-Cola really does support what we do, in which case, guys, you have never listened to the show. | ||
| Or if they want to just say that they do. | ||
| Yeah, that would be... | ||
| I'll believe them sight unseen, much like Carrie Cassidy does with all of her secret space program. | ||
| Co-op us. | ||
| Something that we are going to co-opt is our love for our new... | ||
| Not good. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Not good. | |
| Anyway. | ||
| That's a minus one on the transitions. | ||
| We haven't seen that in a long time yet. | ||
| Thank you so much for joining up with the team. | ||
| Kevin, you are now a policy wonk. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm a policy wonk. | |
| Thank you so much, Kevin. | ||
| Thank you so much, Kevin. | ||
| We appreciate it. | ||
| And if you'd like to support the show, you can do so by going to knowledgefight.com, clicking that support the show button. | ||
| It helps. | ||
| Please do. | ||
| So, Jordan. | ||
| Please do. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Anyways. | ||
| I already sort of made my big reveal. | ||
| This is a Project Camelot episode. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| So there's no big surprise for me to click this button and for you to hear Carrie Cassidy's voice. | ||
| I feel like this is a setup. | ||
| No, it's not really. | ||
| It's underwhelming because every episode starts with her introduction. | ||
| Sometimes it's a surprise and this time it's not. | ||
| So it's not a surprise. | ||
| Here is Carrie opening up the show and introducing us to what today's topic is going to be. | ||
| Hi, everyone. | ||
| I'm Carrie Cassidy from Project Camelot. | ||
| Hi, Carrie! | ||
| Sorry for the late start here. | ||
| We've just had all kinds of technical things go on. | ||
| I forgive you. | ||
| At any rate, I'm here with Ben Emlyn Jones, and I'm very happy to have him on the show. | ||
| There's such a great amount of material that he's been covering, and he's an investigator. | ||
| He's a filmmaker, and he's made a documentary on a very fascinating woman called Helen Duncan. | ||
| And as I wrote below in the chat, basically her story is that she was framed and thrown in prison by Ian Fleming, with the help of Ian Fleming and Churchill. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, boy. | |
| All right. | ||
| That's big already. | ||
| I was... | ||
| My first thought, when she said Helen, and there was a little pause, I was like, did this guy make a documentary about Helen Keller? | ||
| I had thought Helen of Bonham Carter. | ||
| That would have been a good one, too. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Is she the reason that Tim Burton's movies suck now? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I don't like to... | ||
| I don't want to cast blame. | ||
| I think it's probably the misconception that people have that he made Monkeybone. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Ah. | |
| I think that's gotten into his head. | ||
| That was produced by him, right? | ||
| Right. | ||
| No, no. | ||
| No. | ||
| No, it was directed by the person who... | ||
| The reason is... | ||
| The advertising about Monkeybone was all about, like, from the director of Nightmare Before Christmas. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Or something along those lines. | ||
| But the director from Nightmare Before Christmas was not Tim Burton. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| Tim Burton produced the Nightmare Before Christmas and then had nothing to do with Monkeybone. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Gotcha. | ||
| It's something along those lines. | ||
| They tried to use Nightmare Before Christmas as a way to imply that Tim Burton did it, but he didn't. | ||
| I only know this because I worked at the movie theater when Monkey Bone came out, and it was scandalous. | ||
| Everyone was furious. | ||
| All these nerds wanted their money back. | ||
| I couldn't blame them, but I'm like, I don't know. | ||
| No, it was a terrible movie. | ||
| So that leads me to conclude that it must be Churchill who is the reason Tim Burton's movies suck now. | ||
| Yeah, that could be. | ||
| And Ian Fleming. | ||
| Yes, the two of them together conspired to make his movies terrible. | ||
| So do you know who Helen Duncan is, my friend? | ||
| No, but I feel like I at some point did. | ||
| Like, I knew the name. | ||
| Like, the name sounded familiar to me, but now I just don't know what it is. | ||
| I'm not certain that you would. | ||
| You might. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| So Helen Duncan was a spiritualist and medium operating from about 1926 until her arrest in 1944. | ||
| She was creating harmless hoaxes for a really long time and was left largely to her own business, only occasionally running afoul of the law, generally resulting in minor fines for fraud. | ||
| So she would defraud people with seances and shit. | ||
| That's a reputable scam! | ||
| Right. | ||
| I have a lot to get into about her and her... | ||
| And this was in Britain, right? | ||
| I believe so, yeah. | ||
| I think one of the reasons that I might know this name is because I was reading about Harry Houdini and how he was essentially Ghostbustin' at the same time as he was... | ||
| Ghostbustin' made him feel good. | ||
| Yeah! | ||
| And he would go around to these spiritualists and be like, here's how you do this trick, and that became a whole thing, and there was a guy who did that in Britain. | ||
| I don't know if anyone necessarily did that with her, as opposed to a lot of people did that with her. | ||
| Yeah, okay. | ||
|
unidentified
|
So... | |
| I'm going to let this play, and then I'll get to some of my information, because I'm not sure exactly where it's relevant, and I want, you know, I want this Ben gentleman to be able to speak his piece before I... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Do you? | |
| Yeah, because I'd like him to hang himself a little bit, and then I'll come in and say, nope. | ||
| But Helen was born in 1898 in Calendar, which is in Perthshire, Scotland, and she is a spiritualist medium. | ||
| from a very young age, she knew she had this amazing ability. | ||
| And she did several things. | ||
| Like, for example, when she was a young girl, a man who lived in the town where she lived went missing. | ||
| And so the police and some local people went out on a search party, and they took Helen with them. | ||
| And it was a very, very worrying situation because it was very cold. | ||
| Why? | ||
|
unidentified
|
There was a heavy snowfall. | |
| Why'd they take a girl with them? | ||
| And using techniques that we today call remote viewing, Helen Duncan managed to find this man, and he was rescued before it was too late. | ||
| Or it could have been a coincidence. | ||
| I don't know why she would have been out there. | ||
| The story is apocryphal anyway. | ||
| I don't really know how to confirm or deny it. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| And even if it is true, I'm willing to bet gas, randomness, any of those things are much more likely. | ||
| It was taking your daughter to work day. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| Maybe her dad was a cop. | ||
| Yeah, see, there you go. | ||
| Or even, like, this wouldn't involve just the police looking for the guy. | ||
| No, it was a search party. | ||
| It would be the town. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| Maybe her dad was involved in the search party. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Cool. | |
| Papa, let me come along, papa. | ||
| Papa? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So, like I said, I'm not so interested in her childhood. | ||
| I'm going to talk a little bit about her adulthood. | ||
| So, in November 1941, Helen was holding a seance where she claimed that the spirit of a sailor aboard HMS Barham had appeared to her and told her that the ship had sunk. | ||
| This was a bit of an issue because that information was not made public until January 1942. | ||
| So she is a psychic. | ||
| This information was only told to family members of the people lost on the HMS Barham. | ||
| Oh, so she just met a family member. | ||
| So some would say that it's proof that she saw a spirit, but in reality, there were 861 people on board, all of whose families were told of the sinking and asked that they keep the information secret. | ||
| When you consider how many family members that makes, and when you consider that all it takes is for one of these people to talk about it, for the secret to get out, you come to the suspicion that this information wasn't nearly as secret as the government had meant it to be. | ||
| Researchers have dug into the information and found that it was not nearly as secret as the government had intended. | ||
| Many people knew about the sinking before the announcement. | ||
| So the fact that she knew about it means that she just had heard some loose talk and decided to use it in one of her seances. | ||
| But this did get the government's attention. | ||
| So they started to look into her. | ||
| They would go to her seances, and amazingly, the spirits she allegedly was in contact with were often not real people or people who weren't dead. | ||
| There's one example of a guy who went and she was like, I'm talking to your dead aunt. | ||
| And he's like, I don't have any dead aunts. | ||
| Then later she's like, I found your sister. | ||
| I was like, my sister's alive. | ||
| I'm having a real bad set tonight, guys. | ||
| Everybody has a bad set from time to time. | ||
| You bomb. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So they sort of looked into her and all this. | ||
| There were little fines that came along running afoul of fraud laws and stuff like that. | ||
| But in the end, they found an obscure old law, the Witchcraft Act of 1735, to throw her in prison. | ||
| Alright, I don't like anybody right now. | ||
| I'm not on anybody's team. | ||
| I'm not on anybody's team. | ||
| If you're using the Witchcraft Act, you're an asshole. | ||
| Asshole. | ||
| Right. | ||
| She was the last person charged with this law when she was charged in 1944, and because it was kind of trumped-up bullshit, she was released in 1945, whereupon she promised to stop holding seances. | ||
| She was arrested for conducting seances again in 1956 and died shortly after. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Gotcha. | |
| So, this is a lot of, like, this should give you the basic picture of, like, why were the police interested in her? | ||
| Why did this draw the suspicion of the government? | ||
| Right. | ||
| I haven't shown you yet exactly why I'm positive that she's a fraud, but you can kind of get the sense that, like, okay, someone running seances back then for money. | ||
| I think the dead ant thing was probably the one that gave it away. | ||
| But that's sort of, that's like... | ||
| Run-of-the-mill stuff. | ||
| Oh, there's more damning evidence? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh my god. | |
| Okay, alright. | ||
| That's like, you know, John Edward kind of levels of like, yeah, you guys are all running that game. | ||
| And you know what? | ||
| We all kind of know it, too. | ||
| Like, everybody who goes to the seance doesn't really believe in that shit, but they just want that comfort of believing for a moment. | ||
| Yeah, it's for entertainment purposes and what have you. | ||
| But Helen went way further. | ||
| Helen Duncan was the LeBron James of seances. | ||
| Oh, so she went out, and after that guy's aunt was still alive, she went and killed that aunt, and then seanced the fuck out of that aunt. | ||
| Metaphorically, yes. | ||
| Gotcha. | ||
| In this clip, Ben explains that she was the most powerful medium of all time. | ||
| Did not know that. | ||
| And as she grew older, as she grew up, she joined that special class of medium, a very, very rare talent. | ||
| A very rare talent that mediums have, which is manifestation. | ||
| Manifestation is where a medium does more than just what most mediums do, which is go to a spiritualist church and say, yes, I have a message here from somebody over here. | ||
| Someone called John, is anyone there? | ||
| Not that there's anything wrong with that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I don't dismiss that. | |
| I think it's something I take seriously and respect. | ||
| But Helen could do more than that. | ||
| Helen Duncan could actually manifest physical objects Still not. | ||
| Which forms into shapes, very often into the shape of an actual person who has passed away. | ||
| Or Slimer from the Ghostbusters. | ||
| And she did this. | ||
| She did it her whole life. | ||
| And she was one of the most powerful mediums who's ever lived. | ||
| That's an interesting, you know, way to look at it. | ||
| There's other ways. | ||
| So, Jordan... | ||
| The way her seances would work, and this, as he made clear there, and I agree with him to some extent, what set Helen apart from other mediums of the day is that she said she could manifest things into the world that weren't there. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| So she would create this ectoplasm that would come out of her mouth, generally. | ||
| She would claim that the ectoplasm would be connected to apparitions showing up in a very dark room where she conducted her seances. | ||
| In 1928, a photographer named Harvey Metcalf showed up to a seance and took some flash photographs of these ghosts. | ||
| Oh, I bet it didn't work. | ||
| They were very clearly crudely constructed paper mache masks covered in a sheet. | ||
| Just covered in a sheet? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Somehow this revelation did not destroy Helen's business model and she continued running seances. | ||
| Anybody can fake photographs, Dan. | ||
| Ah, totally. | ||
| Anybody can fake those. | ||
| So about that ectoplasm. | ||
| In 1931, the London Spiritualist Academy started to have some questions about Helen's methods. | ||
| I would imagine that they were thinking, like, hey, this person can do things that literally no one else can do. | ||
| I wonder what's up with that. | ||
| And so they opened an examination into her gifts. | ||
| Very quickly, they were able to determine that the way Helen produced ectoplasm was by ingesting a bunch of cheesecloth and throwing it back up performatively. | ||
| The room was dark, and sometimes she would lock herself in a cabinet when producing the ectoplasm. | ||
| Quote, the most usual method for ectoplasm, however, seemed to be butter, muslin, or cheesecloth, probably swallowed and regurgitated. | ||
| Distressing choking noises were sometimes heard from within the cabinet. | ||
| Because she couldn't throw it up, so she was putting her finger down her mouth. | ||
| Gotcha, gotcha. | ||
|
unidentified
|
She hid in the cabinet. | |
| Man, they used to give people a lot of the benefit of the doubt on these. | ||
| So much. | ||
| That is a crazy amount of benefit of the doubt. | ||
| So now, I'm going to produce this magical stuff, but I have to go make throw-up noises in this closet. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| Oh, I'm going to... | ||
| Be invisible, but just don't look. | ||
| Like, fucking, what are you doing? | ||
| It's pretty crazy. | ||
| So once they figured out that this was probably how Helen was doing her trick, they decided to test their hypothesis. | ||
| Their most surprising piece of evidence that Helen was full of shit was when they talked her... | ||
| When she literally shit out the cheesecloth. | ||
| So they talked her into ingesting a blue food dye pill before a performance, which would naturally dye the cheesecloth she'd already swallowed. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| Which would make everything crystal clear. | ||
| For some weird reason, she was unable to produce ectoplasm that night. | ||
| Hmm. | ||
| Mysterious. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Ah. | |
| She generally produced it all the time. | ||
| Every time. | ||
| So that seemed... | ||
| Look, everybody has a bad set, Ben. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Sometimes the ant's still alive, sometimes you can't produce ectoplasm on the one night where it seems... | ||
| Even the best comics bomb. | ||
| Wait, so the Spiritualist Society, were they like believing in spiritualism or were they like, let's not do the spiritualism thing or the academy or whatever the fuck it was? | ||
| From my understanding is they were on board but also wanted, like, trust but verify. | ||
| Again, no heroes here. | ||
| Well, I mean, I think the fact that they were like... | ||
| Hold on. | ||
| Means that they're at least on the right side of things. | ||
| Maybe not heroes. | ||
| Benign actors. | ||
| Well, I was actually thinking about this in terms of the ectoplasm and manifesting. | ||
| Like, I am far more believing of people who are like, oh, well, I can communicate to the other space. | ||
| Because fucking fine. | ||
| There's multiple dimensions or whatever. | ||
| I mean, it's obviously not true. | ||
| You draw a weird line. | ||
| I know. | ||
| It's obviously not true. | ||
| But when you start getting into physical stuff, then you start having to talk about actual physics. | ||
| Like, this is why ghosts don't exist, because there would have to be a particle that makes ghosts. | ||
| It has to be something that can interact with the physical world. | ||
| That's foolish, closed-minded thinking. | ||
| And so if you're producing manifestations, man, that breaks all the laws of physics, and every single scientist would descend upon you if this even had the whiff of truth. | ||
| Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, to some extent that's true. | ||
| Because she could break the simple law of matter cannot be created or destroyed. | ||
| Everything is out the window once this lady throws up some cheesecloth. | ||
| The entire world is forever changed and we understand nothing. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| So in 1931, that same year... | ||
| This guy named Harry Price, the director of the National Laboratory of Physical Research, paid Helen to run some tests on her seances. | ||
| He used a sample of her ectoplasm to definitively show that it was cheesecloth. | ||
| Why would she let him do that? | ||
| It's weird, but also this passage from his report is maybe one of my favorite things I've read about one of these con people. | ||
| This is from his report on one of the seances. | ||
| Quote, At the conclusion of the fourth seance, we led the medium to a settee and called for the apparatus. | ||
| At the sight of it, the lady promptly went into a trance. | ||
| She recovered but refused to be x-rayed. | ||
| Her husband went up to her and told her that it was painless. | ||
| She jumped up and gave him a smashing blow to the face which sent him reeling. | ||
| Then she... | ||
|
unidentified
|
You shut the fuck up! | |
| You shut the fuck up! | ||
| I'm not getting into that X-ray! | ||
| She just whammed him! | ||
| Yeah, just punches her husband. | ||
| As a woman in the 20s or the 30s or whatever? | ||
| But also, the husband was in on the scam, obviously. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| And knew, like, I gotta play along with this. | ||
| She can hit me if she wants. | ||
| So, then she went for Dr. William Brown, who was present. | ||
| He dodged the blow. | ||
| Miss Duncan, without the slightest warning, dashed out into the street, had an attack of hysteria, and began to tear her seance garment to pieces. | ||
| She clutched the railings and screamed and screamed. | ||
| Her husband tried to pacify her. | ||
| It was useless. | ||
| I leave the reader to visualize the scene. | ||
| A 17-stone woman clad in black sateen tights locked to the railing, screaming at the top of her voice. | ||
| A crowd collected, and the police arrived. | ||
| The medical men with us explained the position and prevented him from fetching an ambulance. | ||
| We got her back into the laboratory, and at once she demanded to be x-rayed. | ||
| In reply, Dr. William Brown turned to Mr. Nice. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Nice. | |
| However, they gave us another seance and the control said we could cut off a piece of teleplasm when it appeared. | ||
| The sight of half a dozen men, each with a pair of scissors waiting for the word, was amusing. | ||
| It came and we all jumped. | ||
| One of the doctors got a hold of the stuff and secured a piece. | ||
| The medium screamed and the rest of the teleplasm went down her throat. | ||
| This time it wasn't cheesecloth. | ||
| It proved to be paper, soaked in egg white, and folded into a flattened tube. | ||
| Could anything be more infantile than a group of grown men wasting time, money, and energy on the antics of a fat female crook? | ||
| He did not need to throw the fat part in there. | ||
| That's cruelty. | ||
| That is cruel. | ||
| That's a little rude. | ||
| Look, adding insult to injury is not necessary, dear. | ||
| It's very rude, unnecessary, but it is 1931. | ||
| I was going to say, when you said 17 stone, also, it did help. | ||
| That he called her fat because I was like, 17 stone, is that a lot or is that a little? | ||
| We're not used to these measurements. | ||
| Is that a good amount? | ||
| What's the BMI on stone? | ||
| But I love the idea that in his report he's talking about how fucking humorous that scene is. | ||
| And the fact that immediately they knew that, oh, you just faked an attack of some sort in order to cover for your passing off of the evidence. | ||
| Excuse me, ma 'am. | ||
| We have seen sleight of hand before, so could you not? | ||
| Yeah, that one's simple to call. | ||
| So also in 1931, Harry Price's report was issued, whereupon a Miss Mary McGinley came forward. | ||
| She was Miss Duncan's personal maid at the time of the seances, and she made a statutory declaration before a commissioner of oaths that she used to purchase for Miss Duncan lengths of cheesecloth. | ||
| which he had to wash off before a seance. | ||
| She also swore on oath that Mr. Duncan had informed her on the night of the scene at the National Laboratory that his wife had, quote, passed a roll of butter mucelin to him when they were alone in the street. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Ah. | |
| So, their suspicions were even confirmed by her maid making a statement. | ||
| You can't trust her. | ||
| There's a whole conspiracy of people trying to suppress the knowledge of the spirits, Dan. | ||
| Sure, sure. | ||
| Dan, you gotta believe. | ||
| And when the evidence says no, you believe harder. | ||
| I can't, like, without this being a visual show, I can't stress enough how comical the pictures of her doing the seances are, because there's just a length of cheesecloth coming out of her mouth. | ||
| Like, the pictures that that guy who had the flash photography, they're just like, there's cheesecloth coming out of her mouth that lead up to, like, a big puppet. | ||
| It's crazy how easy it was to con people just a near 70 years ago. | ||
| Man, people are so stupid. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But because a lot of this is so harmless, for the most part, you're just scamming gullible people out of money for the seances. | ||
| She was mostly left alone through most of her career until... | ||
| That gossipy bit of business that she laid out about the HMS Barham. | ||
| That's really where she's like, oh, you stepped out of line. | ||
| And even that, she only went to prison for less than a year. | ||
| Yeah, but see, that's more the government's fault than anybody else's. | ||
| I don't disagree with that at all. | ||
| Who was it? | ||
| There was a research study done on keeping a secret. | ||
| And every person that you add with knowledge of that secret, it, like, geometrically becomes more and more likely that the secret's gonna get out. | ||
| If you have the family members of 800 people, it's gonna get out. | ||
| There's no... | ||
| No way it doesn't get out. | ||
| And I can't remember who it was exactly, because it's not really relevant to the bigger story, but researchers who dug into it did find specific examples of people who admitted that they told people about it. | ||
| Yeah, of course. | ||
| So the idea that we're just guessing that people talked about it before it was made public, it's not guessing. | ||
| The information got out. | ||
| Even people who were like, I didn't realize that I wasn't supposed to talk about this. | ||
| Because why would you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| Let's say you're the mother of one of the sailors. | ||
| You get the information. | ||
| You end up telling other family members maybe the secondary relaying of the information doesn't include the don't snitch part about it. | ||
| You end up with all sorts of loose links in the chain. | ||
| Not only is everybody trying to keep a secret, but there's also a game of telephone being played along the way. | ||
| There's zero chance that it was kept. | ||
| Also, one of the pieces that she had to substantiate that she had spoken to this ghost sailor... | ||
| Was that she had a piece of one of their hats that said HMS Barham on it. | ||
| It was made out of papier-mâché, though. | ||
| It was cheesecloth. | ||
| The problem is that years before the sinking of the ship, they had changed the hats so all of the ships just said HMS. | ||
| They didn't actually have the specific name of the ship on it. | ||
| So it could have been any... | ||
| Or it had to have been years old. | ||
| And it wouldn't be soldiers' current uniforms. | ||
| So it just shows even further... | ||
| It was a hat he owned every... | ||
| At one point. | ||
| Or, more likely, she had just made it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| So, anyway. | ||
| I mean, she's a dynamo with just cheesecloth. | ||
| Of course she can make a ratty old hat. | ||
| She's a killer fraud woman in, like, the 20s, 30s. | ||
| Pretty bad now. | ||
| Like, that... | ||
| Well, you know, it's like when they played baseball in the 20s, the fastest fastball was like 70 miles an hour. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| She's throwing 70 miles. | ||
| She's throwing meatballs now, but at the time, she was fucking blowing by people. | ||
| Yeah, there's an elevation of the game. | ||
| Yeah, and she did not allow black people to play, too, so she's exactly like American baseball in the 1920s. | ||
| Speaking of bigotry, we get back to Ben here, and we find how he came into the world of the spirits and the paranormal and the conspiracy. | ||
| I came across a video by David Icke and a book, and that, it's fair to say, changed my life. | ||
| It's not to say that I endorse everything that David Icke says. | ||
| I'm not suggesting I agree with everything he says. | ||
| I certainly don't. | ||
| You kind of do, though, don't you? | ||
| The book, it was the biggest secret. | ||
| I actually watched the video first, and then I... | ||
| I bought the book The Biggest Secret and there were several other books of his that I bought. | ||
| And that really led me down the rabbit hole, so to speak. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| As the saying goes. | ||
| Well, David is... | ||
| I took the red pill. | ||
| Took that red pill. | ||
| Oh, goddammit! | ||
| Took the red pill. | ||
| So, I think I've changed my tune a little bit as we've gone down this podcast. | ||
| I think my tune before was much more like, eh, David Icke. | ||
| He likes lizards. | ||
| And he is right about some stuff. | ||
| I've said that before. | ||
| Like, the idea of, like, hey, don't watch so much TV. | ||
| But as we go along, I do think that the things that I was like, eh, David Icke, who cares, are so minimal compared to the bigger issues that we sort of look at and the fact that, like, David Icke thinks that the protocols of the elders of Zion is real. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Those sorts of things are much bigger issues. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And I think that I was remiss a little bit in just being like... | ||
| Give David Icke a pass. | ||
| Who cares? | ||
| He's a crazy old dude. | ||
| That's not fair. | ||
| Especially when you see that his influence kind of tentacles out. | ||
| He's the one who woke up Paul Joseph Watson. | ||
| He's the guy who woke up this dude. | ||
| Can we not use that? | ||
| Nobody should be allowed to talk about the Matrix for like 10 years. | ||
| I'm calling a moratorium. | ||
| Oh, this Ben guy, he 100% believes in the... | ||
| Complete moratorium. | ||
| Nobody can use the red pill analogy ever again. | ||
| This guy literally believes that we're in the Matrix, which is the least crazy thing he believes, quite frankly. | ||
| A lot of people would put forth the simulation theory. | ||
| That makes sense. | ||
| I'm fine with that. | ||
| I can't find the specifics on this, so I feel like I can only relay this as second-hand-ish. | ||
| I can't spend all my time digging through all sorts of message boards, but I did find a number of instances of people quoting Ben Jones, Ben whatever his middle name is, Jones, on message boards denying the Holocaust, talking about how there was no Zyklon being Of course. | ||
| Why wouldn't you? | ||
| So I believe it in as much as it follows believing David Icke and having the beliefs that he has. | ||
| But I don't want to say it specifically because I can't find the original post, just repostings of things that he said to have posted. | ||
| There's enough instances where I'm like, hmm, I think this might be real. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
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|
But not enough that I can be like, I know you deny the Hall. | |
| That's what I would say. | ||
| Good call. | ||
| That's how they got OJ. | ||
| It's so much that I'm not saying I agree with everything. | ||
| Line is such the same thing that Republicans do to distance themselves from people that they totally, 100% agree with everything they said on. | ||
| But it's like, oh, this guy. | ||
| Like the Nazi running for Congress in Illinois. | ||
| Like an avowed Nazi. | ||
| Republicans are like, whoa, I don't agree with everything you said. | ||
| Rauner isn't even like... | ||
| I mean, I'm not going to vote for a Democrat against a Nazi. | ||
| He's a Republican. | ||
| Come on, man. | ||
| I don't agree with everything he says, but, you know, like that kind of thing. | ||
| There's also a cheap game that gets played where you do that sort of thing where you're like, I don't believe in everything he says, which allows the brain to be like, oh, the stuff that's terrible, he doesn't believe that. | ||
| Yeah, I'm going to choose what stuff you don't believe in. | ||
| You're not going to explicitly tell me what you don't believe in. | ||
| It's vague enough to include plausible deniability in it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| It's weak shit. | ||
| It's weak tea. | ||
| It's very, very lame. | ||
| So, we heard at the beginning of this episode, Carrie was saying that Ian Fleming was involved. | ||
| The writer of the James Bond novels. | ||
| Of course he was. | ||
| And Ben believes that as well. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| And you might think after listening to this clip that this is a house built on a foundation of sand. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| But to begin with, I've always been interested in history. | ||
| Have you? | ||
| These guys always are interested in history. | ||
| The wrong kind, though. | ||
| Especially here in Britain, it's a major part of our culture in the modern world. | ||
| Yeah, Hogwarts has been around for a thousand years. | ||
| From the Helen Duncan story, for example, Commander Ian Fleming, the author of James Bond. | ||
| And it turns out that he, of all of them, has the most interesting backstory, and I think he is probably the... | ||
| There's no evidence of this precisely. | ||
| Uh-oh. | ||
| It's the circumstantial evidence that points to him being almost a pivotal figure in this, because it was Fleming who was involved, basically, in the D-Day organization. | ||
| So, he already said, there's no evidence of this per se, but there's circumstantial evidence that I'm choosing to connect to it. | ||
| This next clip, he says more, and boy, this isn't good. | ||
|
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|
And there's another... | |
| And there's another book that's been written about this. | ||
| A title I can't remember and I've not read, but I've looked into it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What? | |
| That's not good. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What? | |
| I don't know the name of this book. | ||
| I've not read it. | ||
| Then it doesn't exist! | ||
| You can't use that as evidence. | ||
| I don't know the title of this book and I haven't read it. | ||
| That's all books! | ||
| That's all books! | ||
| That is... | ||
| That's all books! | ||
| You can only say things about the books that you've read. | ||
| It is allowing you to take... | ||
| Universal knowledge. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah! | |
| That's everything! | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| There is a book. | ||
| I don't know the name of it, and I haven't read it, but there's a book about how this Ben Jones guy is full of shit. | ||
| Actually, it's a documentary. | ||
| I'm working on it right now. | ||
| It's a documentary. | ||
| Right. | ||
| It's actually his own documentary. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I want to watch that thing, because Carrie describes it as a stream of consciousness at one point, and I'm like, I've got to watch this documentary. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Wait, what? | |
| I want to watch a stream of consciousness documentary filled with lies about a liar? | ||
| Yes! | ||
| About a con person who you're just taking at complete face value. | ||
| It's baffling. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| So Jordan, this lady absolutely, Helen Duncan, was... | ||
| Pulling some bullshit. | ||
| There's no doubt about it. | ||
|
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|
None. | |
| But there's some reasons to be suspicious about the circumstances wherein she was punished by the law. | ||
| Because she saw D-Day happening in advance? | ||
| No. | ||
| Because of Ian Fleming. | ||
| Put that aside. | ||
| It's not important. | ||
| We'll get back to that tiny bit here in a little bit, but it's so not important to the bigger picture of things. | ||
| There's some reasons to be suspicious, and we'll get to them here in this next clip. | ||
|
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|
Sure. | |
| I do think perhaps there was more at stake even than this, and it could be. | ||
| The reason why they wouldn't let Helen Duncan perform a seance in court, because during the witchcraft trial, she actually asked, she actually pinned all her hopes, all her solicitor did, in a sense pinned her hopes on this, that she would actually prove she was a genuine spiritual medium by performing a seance in court. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Exactly right. | |
| And the judge wouldn't like to do it. | ||
| She said, no, you're not doing this. | ||
| Yeah, that's another piece of the puzzle, which is really strange. | ||
| No, it's not! | ||
| That's not at all. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm pretty sure ghosts aren't admissible evidence. | |
| If I were a judge, I would be like, how dare you? | ||
| You want to do a seance in court? | ||
| How about you go fuck yourself? | ||
| There is no place in court for a seance. | ||
| Quite literally, it's the opposite of a seance. | ||
| Because she could get into court and possibly trick... | ||
| A jury? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Well, the people that we now know existed back then, she would totally trick a jury. | ||
| If it was a jury trial, yeah. | ||
| I don't know, man. | ||
| The other reason, you run into issues that you open up a can of worms when you allow a seance in court. | ||
| Then you gotta allow a whole lot of shit in there. | ||
| Holy shit. | ||
| If that's unprecedented, yeah, not good. | ||
| Next thing you know, there's gonna be voodoo ceremonies in court. | ||
| Now, on the other hand... | ||
| Maybe what the judge was afraid of is setting the precedent that seances were real and then thus admissible in court for all time. | ||
| If a witchcraft law from the 1700s can be used to convict her now, then so could seances be used to win. | ||
| Civil cases now? | ||
| Is that how it goes? | ||
| I don't think that there's any chance of this, but let's imagine a nightmare scenario where accidentally she gets off and the seance is like, well, I guess it was valid. | ||
| I guess it was valid. | ||
| You would then introduce a situation where, in court, you could call ghost witnesses. | ||
| Yeah, for sure. | ||
| For sure. | ||
| It would be a disaster. | ||
|
unidentified
|
For sure. | |
| So there's a hundred reasons not to... | ||
| Not to allow seances in court. | ||
| Also, this clip started right after he went into a long thing about, like, why didn't they just pay her to be quiet? | ||
| I guess that is an option. | ||
| I suppose. | ||
| I think proving that she's a giant fucking liar makes more sense, but paying her to be silent would also work. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| So, there's an interesting schism that's going on on this episode. | ||
| And it's very interesting, because... | ||
| So, Ben believes that... | ||
| Not Winston Churchill. | ||
| That's Carrie. | ||
| He believes that Ian Fleming is behind all this. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| And... | ||
| Kerry believes that Ian Fleming is behind it, but he was reporting to Winston Churchill. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Directly. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| And so Ben is like, no, Churchill didn't know about it. | ||
| There's a letter that he had sent to the prosecutors asking what's going on with this case. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Because he had read about it in the media. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| Because he probably believed in seances. | ||
| Kerry says, fuck no. | ||
| She knows that Churchill was involved. | ||
| How does she know? | ||
| I quite agree with you, but I have to say, in terms of my understanding is that Ian Fleming reported to Churchill and that they were trying to hide D-Day, and D-Day, Churchill was in charge of D-Day, really. | ||
| I don't know if you've read this book. | ||
| It's called OPJB. | ||
| It's a very old book. | ||
| Actually, it's reversed now, and I put it on the screen this way, so I don't know why that happens, but it does. | ||
| Anyway, I highly recommend it if you haven't, because it really does reveal Fleming's involvement, very deeply involved in D-Day. | ||
| So OPJB is a nice abbreviation. | ||
| For Operation James Bond. | ||
| This book is roundly seen as ludicrous. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But you do have to give her points for knowing the name of the book and having read it. | ||
| And it's right in front of her. | ||
| See, there you go. | ||
| It's almost clearly a work of fiction. | ||
| Nothing in it could be substantiated by an investigation. | ||
| So the publisher added a note to it saying, quote, In the end, readers will have to make their own judgments about what they believe. | ||
| What is not in doubt is this book is a thrilling story from a remarkable man. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Cool. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| We could say the same thing about everything Larry Nichols said. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| So the book, basically the underlying story of it has to do with the idea that Martin Borman did not die in Berlin in April 1945, as the story goes, but actually a spy mission was carried out to grab him up in order to have him flip and tell the British where all the Nazi gold was, because Martin Borman was involved in the finances of the Reich. | ||
| In order to do this, the British went in, kidnapped him, and replaced him with a lookalike who was then killed. | ||
| In 1998, this claim was kind of hurt by an exhumation of Borman's body. | ||
| Who OPJB would claim has to be a lookalike. | ||
| They ran genetic tests on the corpse and proved it was, in fact, Martin Borman. | ||
| Can't trust it until I hear it from him. | ||
| Seance! | ||
| Seance me, Dan! | ||
| So now the new story is that that investigation and the exhumation is a whitewash. | ||
| Of course! | ||
| Because you can't give up. | ||
| You just can't give up. | ||
| Even when you already don't believe in reality, why stop now? | ||
| Right, right. | ||
| You know? | ||
| Roll them bones! | ||
| It is that thing where you get trapped in a sort of logic when you just believe something for no reason because it's something you just want to believe and it's more appealing to you. | ||
| Then whenever counter-evidence comes to you, it's so easy to just be like, oh, that's bullshit. | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| All that evidence is bullshit. | ||
| You know what? | ||
| Fuck you, man. | ||
| Ectoplasm is cheesecloth. | ||
| Wait, wait, wait. | ||
| You made the other leap of being literally now it's ectoplasm? | ||
| Why not? | ||
| Every time I've bought cheesecloth, all kinds of shit has happened. | ||
| See, it is actual ectoplasm that's coming out of her, but it's like, you know, if you have a gun, it's a real gun. | ||
| Right. | ||
| You can't do anything without a bullet. | ||
| She has to put the cheesecloth in in order for it to come out as ectoplasm. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| You stupid asshole. | ||
| All right. | ||
| That makes sense. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Or perhaps ectoplasm only comes from cheesecloth. | ||
| See, they don't even do this. | ||
|
unidentified
|
This would be a way that they could at least cogently argue that the... | |
| Very clear evidence that the shit they're talking about is fake is not fake, but they don't. | ||
| They just ignore the idea that, like, well, she was proven to be a con person on a number of occasions. | ||
| You start asking yourself questions, and eventually you're going to find an answer, and you won't like it. | ||
| So you just don't ask yourself questions. | ||
| Just put a fucking little paper mache mask on, throw a sheet over yourself, and become a ghost. | ||
| Become Cheesecloth. | ||
| That's our new red pill. | ||
| We're not using red pill anymore. | ||
| We're saying they became cheesecloth. | ||
| Cheese your cloth, baby. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| So, at this point, I think everything is pretty thin that they're going off on. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Uh-huh. | |
| The idea that... | ||
| I mean, you know, Ian Fleming was involved in intelligence in England. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And that's why he was able to write James Bond so detailed. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And all that shit, but I don't... | ||
| And reportedly, he did fuck a lot, so that's why he got to throw fucking a lot. | ||
| Uh-huh. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Absolutely. | ||
| And he was also clearly homophobic, which is why most of the villains have a weird sexuality to them. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| And he was a bit on the nose with Pussy Galore. | ||
| I'm not going to lie to you, he was a bit on the nose there. | ||
| I don't know if anybody's pointed that out before, but do you know what that means? | ||
| That name. | ||
| Lot of Beave? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| So I think there's a little bit of a thinness to the evidence so far. | ||
| So that means... | ||
| It's based on a book that he doesn't know the name on and he hasn't read. | ||
| And it wasn't that book that Carrie just brought up, so it was another book. | ||
| It's a whole different book. | ||
| So Carrie mentioning that book gets him to be like, well, maybe that's true, which shows the depth of these people's convictions. | ||
| This is exactly like whenever she fucking led the other guy and was like, listen. | ||
| She's going to try and do that in a little bit. | ||
| But before she does, because the evidence is so thin, she's got to pull into her bag of tricks and pull out what I am starting to believe is literally her only source. | ||
| I have to say that Churchill cannot have been blind to the sort of Black, satanic side of the Nazis and many other things that were going on during those times. | ||
| Of course, I have other evidence because I've got a witness, Captain Mark Richards, who I interview in prison. | ||
| You may be familiar with his name. | ||
| I know his wife. | ||
| Yes, Joanne is on the circuit talking about his story, but I, as I say, have gone to the prison and interviewed him actually eight times. | ||
| Which leads me to believe... | ||
| Yeah, which trumps you knowing his wife, asshole. | ||
| There were only seven videos out, so that means there might be one coming soon. | ||
| I hope that means that there's one coming soon. | ||
| Ooh, we're getting another Mark Richards. | ||
| We could use the Mark Richards up in our lives. | ||
| Oh yeah, absolutely. | ||
| But in the absence of a new Mark Richards episode... | ||
| While she's trying to bring up Mark Richards, she brings up a new piece of information that I think cannot be true. | ||
| And he has family that were in Britain, and actually specifically his father was known as the Dutchman. | ||
| Hell yeah. | ||
| And so that the, what you might say, he as a boy was going to parties on Churchill's estates. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What? | |
| And there was a heavy duty, this is not widely known, but it is part of his work, revealing that The whole E.T. thing was known by Churchill and members at that time. | ||
| So Winston Churchill died in 1965. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So Mark Richards, as a boy, went to parties with Winston Churchill, right? | ||
| If that's true, then I don't remember how old Mark Richards is. | ||
| Let me do the math on this. | ||
| He'd have to be 58 to be alive when Churchill had died. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I think that's possible. | ||
| I think he might be over 50. But I don't think he could be much older than that. | ||
| Which means he's going to parties at Winston Churchill's estate when Churchill is a year from death. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I don't know about this. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah! | |
| Come on! | ||
| Come on! | ||
| I just googled Mark Churchill. | ||
| Wait! | ||
| You don't think? | ||
| Is Mark Richards' real dad Winston Churchill? | ||
| And the Dutchman stole him from Winston Churchill when he died. | ||
| So what he remembers is actually an idyllic childhood with his real father, Winston Churchill, whom we all remember as a great father, above all else. | ||
| And then the Dutchman stole him. | ||
| I just stole him! | ||
| It's possible. | ||
| This is an Anastasia situation all over again. | ||
| I'm just trying to figure out Mark Richard's age here, which is tough. | ||
| So the murder happened, or the conviction happened in 1982. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And he was supposed to be like, what, 20? | ||
| He was 20-something in 1982, which would make him 50-something. | ||
| Yeah, so no, he was not alive. | ||
| The timeline is really tough for him to have partied as a kid with Churchill. | ||
| Also, I don't believe that just even if the timeline didn't work. | ||
| Even if he lived in Britain at the time! | ||
| Because if we point that out, then Carrie would just be like, he is a time traveler. | ||
| Oh, that's a good point. | ||
| I forgot that he was a time traveler. | ||
| Of course, that's right. | ||
| Oh, goddammit. | ||
| You win again, sweary-carry! | ||
| This is bulletproof logic. | ||
| Also, like, if he partied with, you know, Winston Churchill with his dad, the Dutchman, when he was a wee lad, why was he running, like, a tire shop when he committed that murder? | ||
| Why was he... | ||
| Cover! | ||
| Why is that where he ended up? | ||
| Cover. | ||
| For his time traveling and off-world shit. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| If Minerva was a... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Look. | |
| The only way that you can hide a sentient spacecraft... | ||
| Is if you run a tire store, because then people wouldn't even be surprised by Ascension spacecraft coming in and out of there. | ||
| That's a tire shop! | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| Where else would they be? | ||
| You make a good point. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Also, it seems beyond credulity for me to accept that someone who is involved in the secret space program and going on these off-world missions, and his dad, the Dutchman, saved the world a couple times. | ||
| He needs a sting. | ||
| We need a drop for him. | ||
| The Dutchman! | ||
| I find it almost impossible to believe that that person would organize a murder for like five grand or something like that. | ||
| Seems very difficult for me to believe that someone who is that important to the world would be in that kind of financial straits. | ||
| He was framed. | ||
| He was framed, Dan. | ||
| He was framed. | ||
| So that's one of Carrie's big guys. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| We know that. | ||
| She tosses Mark Richards around a lot. | ||
| Every goddamn episode. | ||
| That's a lot. | ||
| Right, because she wants to impress these people and let them know that they're not talking to some slouch. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| She knows Mark Richards personally. | ||
| She goes to the prison and he trusts her. | ||
| I really don't understand any of that. | ||
| Any of this world at all based just on that, where even that guy's like, yes, I know his wife. | ||
| Like, what? | ||
| No, you shouldn't know any of this. | ||
| He's on the circuit doing these weird, like, Awake and Aware conferences. | ||
| Why is there a circuit? | ||
| Because these people need to, like, the con is not good enough if you just have a web show. | ||
| I know. | ||
| Like, Carrie Cassidy makes a lot of money from doing Project Camelot, but, like, a lot of these other people don't make much on their shit. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| So you need some place where they can come together and fleece people in one, like, big conference. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Man, that's annoying. | ||
| It's a little... | ||
| It's like a YouTuber convention. | ||
| Yeah, it's like a down-on-his-luck wrestler signing autographs. | ||
| There's plenty of that. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| Except for at least wrestlers did something real. | ||
| By which I mean perform fake stuff. | ||
| Right, and they're more tragic figures generally than these con people because... | ||
| Right. | ||
| They gave up their bodies to this art form of wrestling. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And a lot of them didn't know the consequences. | ||
| So you see them now washed up and down on their luck and maybe addicted to pills. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And it's like, well... | ||
| Probably a lot like Mark Richards. | ||
| I mean, I don't know. | ||
| Well, I mean, there's a robust... | ||
| Drug trade in prison. | ||
| Yeah, I bet he can get some pills. | ||
| Yeah, although I imagine more likely he was on speed and shit when he went in. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| And maybe, like, his brain just hasn't regulated. | ||
| That's also possible. | ||
| You know, he's like an addict without a drug, and now his addiction is manifest by lying to Carrie Cassidy. | ||
| Eh, he's been drinking too much toilet wine. | ||
| It could be. | ||
| Could be. | ||
| So that's one of her sources, and in this next clip she accidentally brings up another one and compares him to Helen Duncan. | ||
| Which I actually agree. | ||
| They are very similar. | ||
| But not in the ways that Carrie wants to. | ||
| They're both con people. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| This guy is someone who I... | ||
| Carrie has interviewed him a bunch of times. | ||
| I've brought him up. | ||
| And someone mentioned him in the Facebook group, Go Home and Tell Your Mother You're Brilliant. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And they brought up a piece of information that I'll discuss here in a second. | ||
| I've been putting off doing a full episode about him because he is like... | ||
| I would describe him as the big boss. | ||
| Almost. | ||
| The big boss. | ||
| Yeah, Mark Richards is not difficult to get to the bottom of, you know, in the sense that, like, we know that there's records of what he was doing and all this. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right, right, right. | |
| She can say that he was off-world at the time of the murder and all this shit. | ||
| Who cares? | ||
| It's not that hard to get around, and his stuff is fun. | ||
| He's talking about sentient spacecrafts and raptor buddies who will kill you for chocolate. | ||
| Definitely no tires. | ||
| That's super fun. | ||
| This guy, Sean David Morton, is so... | ||
| Hardcore of a con man. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But he's not fun. | ||
| He's not as fun. | ||
| Like, there's no raptors. | ||
| There are aliens and stuff like that, but it's not as whimsical and not as fun. | ||
| So every time I've sat down to try and do an episode about him, which I think we will do in the future, it becomes very hard. | ||
| Because it's like, I have to weed through so much bullshit in terms of like, okay, well, here's this. | ||
| Here's where this is coming from. | ||
| It's very difficult. | ||
| He's tied a very tangled web indeed. | ||
| Indeed. | ||
| And so some of that we'll discuss at the other end of this clip, only because Carrie brings him up and it's pretty fucking funny. | ||
| Okay, well, there is another aspect to this that people may not have thought of that I do look at, which has to do with Sean David Morton. | ||
| I know this is going to sound extraordinary, but... | ||
| Sean David Morton is a psychic and has been proving this for many, many years publicly. | ||
| Doesn't sound true. | ||
| And, of course, a very public person. | ||
| And he got thrown in jail supposedly for overstepping certain investment laws or whatever associated with the SEC inquiry into some money. | ||
| And I was actually involved in... | ||
| You shut up! | ||
| But I have to say that there were people that did, and I'm not sure whether that contributed to him and his wife being thrown in prison. | ||
| But I do know that he's writing a book that is disclosing the UFO story really historically, going back. | ||
| Drew, who was running Area 51, who was running the scene here on planet Earth in terms of the E.T. situation, and so on. | ||
| And this man, the story goes that there's a whistleblower who had his lawyer give all his material to Sean and said, please turn this into fiction and don't reveal who I really am. | ||
| Sean wrote these three books called Sands of Time. | ||
| So what Sean, on top of being psychic, is doing, he's also working with this whistleblower, in essence, behind the scenes. | ||
| And he has been thrown in jail. | ||
| So what's fascinating about all of that is the link-up with what happened to Helen. | ||
| Yes, they are both frauds. | ||
| They both ran afoul of fraud laws. | ||
| And you got frauded! | ||
| Sean David Morton defrauded Carrie Cassidy. | ||
| Yeah! | ||
| According to her partner, Bill Ryan, quote, Carrie lost about $116,000. | ||
| What? | ||
|
unidentified
|
She had $116,000 to begin with? | |
| A major chunk of her mother's inheritance, which helped support our living expenses in the startup of Camelot. | ||
| I gotcha. | ||
| And I also lost $25,000. | ||
| Not a penny has ever been returned. | ||
| It's a story that's not been told. | ||
| And yet it's a very old story. | ||
| It's a tale as old as time, you might say. | ||
| Carrie likes to say that, or in that clip even, she said that what he did was run afoul of some investment laws. | ||
| And that's not the full story. | ||
| Hear this from an article about them. | ||
| Quote, Perfect. | ||
| off debt for themselves and others. | ||
| Perfect. | ||
|
unidentified
|
According to the superseding indictment, Sean David Morton filed a series of false income tax returns for the years 2005 and 2010 that sought millions of dollars in refunds. | |
| Melissa Morton allegedly filed several false tax returns for the year 2007. | ||
| The indictment specifically alleges that Sean David Morton filed a false 2006 income tax return that requested a refund of $2,800. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| In 2012, he filed a document that sought a tax refund of $1,560,634 for 2006. | ||
| In relation to the scheme... | ||
| Dream big, man. | ||
| Dream big. | ||
| I love it. | ||
| Shoot your shot. | ||
| In relation to the scheme, the indictment alleges that Sean David Morton on multiple occasions submitted to the IRS documents he called, quote, coupon for set-off settlement and closure in the amounts of $5,286,867 and $8,429 ,673. | ||
| These fictitious financial instruments were purported bond in exchange for the refunds they sought from the IRS, according to the indictment. | ||
| Sean David Morton was certain he'd get away with this because he claims he's, quote, not a 14th Amendment citizen. | ||
| This is all sovereign citizenship. | ||
| They believe that the federal government doesn't have jurisdiction of stuff and so he was certain that he'd go in court and be like, yeah, I did that. | ||
| I'm just trying to get my money back that the government... | ||
| Sovereign citizens believe that there's a whole big pile of gold out there that belongs to all of us, and if we just say the right words and file the right document, the government has to give you that money that they have in... | ||
| There's accounts for all of us. | ||
| It's an escrow. | ||
| There's accounts for all of us. | ||
| Our human persons, not our corporate beings. | ||
| And that if we just say the right things, the government's like, ah, damn it, we have to give you the gold. | ||
| And so he believed... | ||
| He doesn't believe this, but he knew that he could do an elaborate financial scam, and if it came down to it, he could claim this as some sort of reason why he did it to make it seem like he's not a criminal. | ||
| He's actually just someone who knows the truth. | ||
| And he knew he'd get in trouble, and this is all horseshit. | ||
| Is he still in prison? | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| Okay, how long is he going to be in prison for? | ||
| I think he's going to be in for a while. | ||
| I think he might be in for a while. | ||
| Carrie's going to have to go interview him in prison. | ||
| One day for every piece of gold that he wishes the government had given him. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| And his wife is in prison, too. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Good. | |
| So, this is an interesting thing. | ||
| God damn it, Carrie. | ||
| I'm so disappointed in her. | ||
| Right. | ||
| There's much better uses of $116,000 fucking dollars. | ||
| And if you get defrauded for that much money, at least give up on that guy. | ||
| Like, that guy. | ||
| You can still believe in everything else, but let that guy go. | ||
| Just be like, that guy's a liar. | ||
| That guy's a fraud. | ||
| Well, from Bill Ryan's description of how they lost the money, they claim that it wasn't wrongdoing by Sean David Morton. | ||
| It was negligence on his part that led to them losing all that money. | ||
| He tells a version of the story that is not super compelling, but at the same time, I get how you could talk yourself into not blaming him, though you fucking should. | ||
| Especially when you look into the other extracurriculars that he was up to, and you're like, oh, this guy is not a guy who's acting in good faith. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Gotcha. | |
| He is a person who is operating very illegally. | ||
| Yeah, but psychically. | ||
| So now, we have Mark Richards who's in prison. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| We have Sean David Morton who's also in prison. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Both of them, both very credible sources. | ||
| Now, that leads to this revelation from Ben. | ||
| Not a revelation, but this thought. | ||
| So I was in prison for a while. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, no, no. | |
| Okay. | ||
| Not that he was in prison, but this thought is something that he should do a little more examining of. | ||
| It is a strikingly odd situation. | ||
| So many people, to do the things that we do, end up in jail. | ||
| I'm just thinking Michael Shrimpton, I'm thinking James Jasbo. | ||
| I'm thinking a whole list of people. | ||
| You somehow end up in jail for one reason or another. | ||
| Somehow! | ||
| You know what? | ||
| It's not one reason or another. | ||
| For one reason or another! | ||
| It's generally fraud, except with Mark Richards, because that was conspiracy to commit a murder. | ||
| But also, he probably committed fraud somewhere along the way. | ||
| And he is now. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| But the idea that... | ||
| We're all con, man. | ||
| Why do we keep ending up in prison? | ||
| Because what you're doing is illegal. | ||
| That's why. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I don't know. | |
| You have to go the next step on this thought. | ||
| It's almost like lying to people and then taking their money for it is a bad thing. | ||
| And I don't think that the government should be involved in that. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Deregulation of liars. | ||
| If you want to make that argument, that's more interesting, quite frankly. | ||
| Because this is a pathetic... | ||
| It depends on what class you are in. | ||
| Regulating liars is not really something that we seem to do for the rich. | ||
| This is a pathetic angle, though. | ||
| Like, the idea of, like, why do all these people end up in prison? | ||
| Conspiracy. | ||
| Why do a bunch of you not? | ||
| You know, like... | ||
| That's a better question, isn't it? | ||
| If it was some... | ||
| Why aren't I in jail? | ||
| Right. | ||
| If it was some sort of thing where it's like the government is really against the topics that we cover... | ||
| Why was Simon Parks in elected office? | ||
| Why is he not in prison? | ||
| Why is Carrie... | ||
| Oh, I'm sure she would make the argument, I'm too popular. | ||
| I'm too famous for them to take me down. | ||
| That sort of thing. | ||
| It's like, I live in public and that's why they can't get me. | ||
| You know what? | ||
| All of these people, all of the guests that she has that aren't in prison should be in prison if their narrative was true at all. | ||
| And it's not. | ||
|
unidentified
|
The specific people who go to prison are the people who are running giant cons or... | |
| Trying to get $8 million in fake tax returns. | ||
| That would be great. | ||
| That's why people go to prison. | ||
| If he had gotten it just because he filed the paperwork, he would be a hero of mine. | ||
| You son of a bitch. | ||
| He would be a hero of mine. | ||
| Write a fucking book about ghosts. | ||
| Write a book about aliens. | ||
| Pretend you're a whistleblower. | ||
| Do it all day. | ||
| No one cares. | ||
| Trying to fraud millions of dollars from the government? | ||
| They're gonna start caring. | ||
| You know, it seems like a bad idea. | ||
| Commit a murder. | ||
| They're gonna start caring. | ||
| What should be an issue, though, what they're not connecting that, Which is a bummer for me, is the obvious answer, if their narratives are true, is not that they are too popular or too important. | ||
| It's the exact opposite. | ||
| No one's listening. | ||
| No, it's like they're only going after the people who are players in the game, which means you guys... | ||
| Are fucking nothing! | ||
| Carrie Cassidy's probably more notable in this world than Sean David Morton. | ||
| Although, Sean David Morton's a big deal. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Like, if you know that world, he's a major player in it. | ||
| I've brought this up a bunch of times just because it's really funny. | ||
| He's the guy who ran that conspiracy cruise where he went on and then got arrested as soon as the boat docked. | ||
| That was my favorite. | ||
| That's my favorite story you've ever told. | ||
| I know that Vice sucks and all that, but I do recommend everyone watch the video of him dancing on the boat. | ||
| Conspiracy cruise. | ||
| Smash cuts to a screen says, as soon as the boat docked, Sean David Borden was arrested by federal agents. | ||
| Hilarious. | ||
| It's like, ooh. | ||
| Glad you had fun on that boat. | ||
| So good. | ||
| So, earlier you were suggesting that Carrie was trying to influence the narrative, much like she did with Eddie Page, the cuck of the racist alien world. | ||
| The conspiracuck, if you will. | ||
| No, the racist alien cuck. | ||
| Oh, yeah, that's right. | ||
| Now, I don't agree with everything he says. | ||
| Yeah, he allowed Carrie to walk him down a path in order to change very essential pieces of his narrative. | ||
| And, you know what? | ||
| I don't know if we just missed her doing that in the past with other guests, but she does try to do it here. | ||
| You know what I think it is? | ||
| Whenever we're doing a Mark Richards episode, she's just talking. | ||
| There's nobody to lead down the path. | ||
| Now that we're doing guest episodes, we find out she's the evil mastermind behind all of this shit. | ||
| That's why we suspected that she's leading Mark Richards, or she's lying about what he's saying. | ||
| Yeah, she's making this thing up whole cloth. | ||
| It's possible, but also, I mean, we did that episode with, I can't remember the guy's name. | ||
| Or whole cheesecloth, as you will. | ||
| It might have been the first episode we did, the one where it was about a super soldier, space traveler guy. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| The guy who could... | ||
| Who was on Mars and then came back in time. | ||
| Part of solar defense? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| I don't think, in my memory, maybe if I re-listened to that I would notice it more, but I didn't think that Kerry was leading him. | ||
| He seemed in full control of the narrative. | ||
| Yeah, I feel like we would have noticed. | ||
| Some of these guys are a lot softer. | ||
| Like an Eddie Page is soft. | ||
| He's too busy being racist. | ||
| Now, it's interesting what happens here with this Ben Jones character, because Kerry tries that. | ||
| And it doesn't really work. | ||
| All right. | ||
| But you can see Ben say one thing and then Carrie completely take it and try and mold it into what she wants it to be. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And we'll see what happens. | ||
| Now, in your case, I sort of asked you this, but it's not... | ||
| Maybe I misunderstood when you were talking about in the documentary, but I got the impression that you actually were told not to pursue the story by other people in your life, like at the time when you were thinking about pursuing it or something. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Is that not true? | |
| Somebody... | ||
| I can't remember who it was, actually. | ||
| Or the name of their book. | ||
| They actually did say that this is something not to get involved in. | ||
| They didn't actually warn me or threaten me or anything like that. | ||
| They just said, maybe this is not a good idea. | ||
| So, real quick, we'll get back to Kerry's response, but I would say that that's exactly what someone might have said to me when I started this podcast. | ||
| Quite frankly, like a friend being like... | ||
| I don't know, Dan. | ||
| I think I said it to you. | ||
| There's better uses of your time. | ||
| That sort of thing. | ||
| That's how I hear what he's saying. | ||
| Someone, I don't remember who it was. | ||
| They weren't threatening me or warning me. | ||
| It was just like, maybe don't. | ||
| Hey, don't do this. | ||
| Don't waste your time. | ||
| Don't do this. | ||
| Get a job. | ||
| Have you considered getting a job? | ||
| He has a job. | ||
| You know what his job is? | ||
| No. | ||
| He's a hospital porter. | ||
| What? | ||
| I don't know what that means. | ||
| I'll explain in a second. | ||
| I don't know why I was so surprised. | ||
| We had a custodian dishwasher for NASA recently show up on Carrie Cassidy's show because he had invented a warp drive that the government was trying to suppress. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Of course. | |
| And now we have a hospital porter, which it's variable what a porter could be. | ||
| It could be a nurse's assistant. | ||
| It's somebody who moves things. | ||
| It could be a nurse's assistant or it could be a janitor. | ||
| It could be anywhere in that realm in a hospital. | ||
| So he's just a guy who works at a hospital and he's got a night gig. | ||
| Or he built ports. | ||
| Right, so some friend of his, maybe another orderly at the hospital or something like that, told him, man, I don't know. | ||
| This seems whack for you to get into. | ||
| But here's what Carrie responds to that very benign, I wasn't threatened, I wasn't warned. | ||
| I don't know if that's significant or not. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It is. | |
| It is to me. | ||
| Yes, it is. | ||
| These kinds of things that don't overlook this kind of thing because it's so interesting. | ||
| It interests me because it's so many years later that they wouldn't want to reveal this, which, of course, makes me all the more interested in it. | ||
| So, real quick, she's already changed what he has just said. | ||
| They don't want this looked into. | ||
| That wasn't what he said at all. | ||
| She's already moved the goalposts within, like, ten words. | ||
| Yeah, she's a pro! | ||
| ...in it, because, again, the parallels to our times and to the way they also stigmatize... | ||
| So now she's trying to argue that Sean David Morton is innocent because of the parallels with this story when she's lying about the story and lying about what happened when Ben decided to get into this. | ||
| Which is why she had him on in the first place. | ||
| Most likely. | ||
| You know, per se. | ||
| They're trying to classify that person as being crazy. | ||
| They've actually, although they have done some tests... | ||
| Apparently on some of us and found out that we have higher IQs than the normal people out there. | ||
| So that should, you know, kind of allay any sort of skepticism. | ||
| But it doesn't, of course. | ||
| No, no, it doesn't. | ||
| There are so many aspects to this. | ||
| I guess there's also various religions. | ||
| There are some religions that don't allow for this kinds of. | ||
| Psychic perception, certainly not mediumship. | ||
| Like Christianity! | ||
| The life after death question is always a very important part of the mediumship aspect. | ||
| So, you know, it gets into that as well. | ||
| The mediumship is in the next cruise, by the way. | ||
| But in terms of your own sort of trajectory, so you were warned slightly somehow in various ways against doing this, but you continue to pursue it, correct? | ||
| Yeah, I didn't consider it very serious at the time. | ||
| I can't even remember who these people were. | ||
| And it wasn't a warning as such. | ||
| It's just several people thought this wasn't something I should pursue. | ||
| So he's not budging that much, but he did reframe it by saying, I didn't think it was serious at the time. | ||
| So he's already coming a little bit over, but I believe that it is sincere that he wasn't being warned because he's standing by that. | ||
| He's not trying to make the argument that, like, hey, a guy in a fucking trench coat came to my door and said, lay off on the Helen Duncan business. | ||
| I don't know how much I like evil mastermind carry. | ||
| I'm not a fan. | ||
| This was much more fun whenever she was just so willing to believe everything. | ||
| And now this has turned into something different. | ||
| Remember there was a time when we were just Alex is an idiot, kind of? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| It was a little more fun. | ||
| And now we see the white nationalists. | ||
| It's very Machiavellian. | ||
| Ah, there we go. | ||
| Yeah, so once you see the real picture of these people, the face drops a little bit. | ||
| You start to get a picture of like, oh, this is really the game they're playing. | ||
| It's much more sinister. | ||
| Very disappointing. | ||
| More controlling the narrative than we like to imagine. | ||
| She's not a reporter. | ||
| She's writing a book in real time and forcing other weirdos into her... | ||
| She's trying to dungeon master this whole thing. | ||
| 100%. | ||
| That's the perfect metaphor. | ||
| So, we didn't hear about this earlier, but in the beginning of this episode, Carrie teased that Helen Duncan's granddaughter was going to call in. | ||
| No! | ||
| So, the medium... | ||
| Is she dead? | ||
| Oh, that would be a way better way for her to call in. | ||
| The granddaughter's alive. | ||
| That would be a way better way for her granddaughter to call in. | ||
| It still wouldn't prove shit to me. | ||
| No. | ||
| So, Helen Duncan. | ||
|
unidentified
|
HD. | |
| The cheesecloth madam. | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| Her granddaughter calls in, and this is not to be believed. | ||
| This show, there's only a few clips left, but boy howdy, this is wild. | ||
| Wait, does she... | ||
| We are going to start to connect some weird pieces of this spiderweb that could not possibly be imagined. | ||
| So here is just the beginning of Maggie, the granddaughter, calling in. | ||
| And I get really sad that her name is Maggie because it makes me think of that great Colin Hay song, Maggie. | ||
| It's a great song. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Hi, Maggie. | ||
| How are you? | ||
| Hi, Maggie. | ||
| Hi. | ||
| Am I on? | ||
| Am I on? | ||
| Yes, you're on the show here. | ||
| Your voice is... | ||
| Oh, okay. | ||
| Anyway... | ||
| Hi, everybody. | ||
| Hi, Maggie. | ||
| Hi, sweetheart. | ||
| How are you? | ||
| I'm all right, thanks. | ||
| How are you feeling? | ||
| I guess I can't watch the show because now I'm on the show. | ||
| Right. | ||
| It would interfere if you try to watch the show, so it's probably better if you don't. | ||
| But you can watch later. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And see how you did. | ||
| Yes, everybody, that's very funny. | ||
| I like how she says, and see how you did. | ||
| And it's a weird way to phrase it. | ||
| Oh, Maggie, hey, what am I to do? | ||
|
unidentified
|
How can I live with only memories of you? | |
| It's a great song. | ||
| She has nothing to say, you just wanted to sing that song. | ||
| No, she has a lot to say, but I also want to sing that song. | ||
| It's a fucking great song. | ||
| And I love, I'm starting to enjoy, I begin some feedback people are liking whenever I start talking music. | ||
| So, I feel like I should talk a little more about Maggie. | ||
| Great song. | ||
| Makes me tear up. | ||
| Beautiful song about childhood love that went awry. | ||
| Look, this is not a Dan Reviews music show. | ||
| It's a great song. | ||
| Everyone check out Maggie. | ||
| So now we can glean that this dude has talked to her granddaughter, of course. | ||
| No, 100%. | ||
| That's why we're getting... | ||
| No, I just didn't know. | ||
| I almost thought it was going to be a blind call, but now obviously that's a stupid thing to think about. | ||
| He's making a documentary about her grandma. | ||
| Yeah, legit, it did not cross my mind. | ||
| She's the only family member or any person involved with all this stuff who is in contact with this Ben Jones guy. | ||
| So, I'll tell you what, that's not the only reason she's on this show. | ||
| I don't even know how to set up this clip because it's one of the weirdest things I've ever... | ||
| This is a long clip, but mic down. | ||
| This is lore here. | ||
| This is insane backstory. | ||
| We get answers to questions we didn't know we had. | ||
| And then we get a reveal at the end of this clip that is... | ||
| Unbelievable. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| And it implies a couple of things that are deeply problematic. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Stop setting it up! | ||
| Let's play the clip! | ||
| It also makes the story of Helen Duncan so much more robust. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| But also Carrie doesn't want to go there. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| She's not interested in it. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| And I was just saying that could you explain how you got me connected with Eddie Page was because you're still in touch with your grandmother? | ||
| Is that right? | ||
| My grandmother is one of my guys. | ||
| All right. | ||
| I've researched my grandmother. | ||
| Here's what happened. | ||
| I stayed away from... | ||
| You've got to understand. | ||
| My grandmother was killed in 1956. | ||
| I've got to come in real quick. | ||
| We'll get back to what she's saying. | ||
| The argument that a lot of these people have is that Helen Duncan was killed. | ||
| Because the police raided one of her seances, because she promised we're not going to do this anymore, and then she started doing it again on the low. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| And she was conning people, and they're like, God damn it, we told you not to do this. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| And so the argument goes that because she was interrupted in the middle of a trance when she was getting ectoplasm out, that the ectoplasm burned her, and it caused... | ||
| Serious esophageal damage. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And then she died. | ||
| And because it was interrupted, she ended up dying months later. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| Because of it. | ||
| That makes... | ||
| Perfect sense. | ||
| This is horse shit. | ||
| As we already noted, that review of one of her seances very rudely called her fat, but she was a very unhealthy woman. | ||
| It was the 20s, and when they did an autopsy, they found that she had a history of heart damage. | ||
| So the idea that she died of a broken heart. | ||
| More or less. | ||
| From her seances. | ||
| Being interrupted. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| So you've only validated her argument more. | ||
| No, because her argument is that she was burned by this ectoplasm because you can't interfere with someone in the middle of vomiting up cheesecloth. | ||
| And I do, well, I really do believe the authorities played a big part in her death. | ||
| So I stayed away from this stuff for many, many, many years. | ||
| I wanted nothing to do with spiritualism. | ||
| I wanted nothing to do with any of it. | ||
| And what happened is I just kept having an overwhelming sense that I had to look into my grandmother. | ||
| I had to find out the truth. | ||
| And I said, okay, you know what? | ||
| I'll look into it. | ||
| Let the cards fall where they may. | ||
| If she was abroad, I could accept that. | ||
| I don't believe that for a second. | ||
| If she was genuine, I can accept that. | ||
| I've spent 30 years researching her life, and she was genuine. | ||
| We were brought up as kids that she had a gift from God. | ||
| So getting to Eddie Page, here's what happened. | ||
| As I was in the UK, I'm British. | ||
| Even though I don't sound it, I am definitely, I'm Scottish. | ||
| And 2013, I was back home. | ||
| I sat with a medium. | ||
| My grandmother came through. | ||
| And my grandmother gave me some personal messages. | ||
| And she said to me, you're going to find out where you come from. | ||
| And I thought... | ||
| What does she mean by that? | ||
| I had no idea. | ||
| Honestly, I thought I had, because I had been researching our family tree, so that's what I thought I had to do with. | ||
| And didn't pay much attention to it. | ||
| And then, um, 2015, I met Eddie. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And, uh... | |
| And so I spent some time with Eddie. | ||
| I've reviewed all the documents. | ||
| Actually, I'm the one that's responsible for Eddie. | ||
| And I do save my brother because I carry the same bloodline as him. | ||
| She's an alien? | ||
| She's a Pleiadian. | ||
| She's a Pleiadian? | ||
| She's a Pleiadian. | ||
| Oh my god! | ||
| She's a Pleiadian! | ||
| As is Carrie, apparently. | ||
| I did not know that! | ||
| That I did not see coming. | ||
| Wild! | ||
| Is she also a racist? | ||
| Maybe. | ||
| She must be. | ||
| She's responsible for Eddie, so she's responsible for some racism. | ||
| Jesus. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Holy shit. | |
| Can you believe this? | ||
| Holy shit. | ||
| This backstory is amazing. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What? | |
| So, Helen Duncan, this crazy con woman fraud from the 20s, her granddaughter starts getting into trying to figure out her family's history, ends up accidentally running into Eddie Page. | ||
| The two of them get together and be crazy together, and then she encourages him to go public with his stories, what have you. | ||
| She ends up hooking up Carrie Cassidy with Eddie Page, resulting in the episodes that we went over and listened to, where he's a fucking big old racist alien. | ||
| Then she comes on here in the episode about Helen Duncan and reveals she's a Pleiadian! | ||
| Everyone's a Pleiadian! | ||
| It's crazy. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I am so happy. | |
| That is the best! | ||
| That's the best! | ||
| It cannot do better than that. | ||
| There's no way. | ||
| Of all the crazy things that I know could have happened, because there's no end of the possibilities, that would never have shown up. | ||
| Bluest of the blue sky thinking, that would never have shown up. | ||
| Oh, of course, the granddaughter of a con woman is also a Pleiadian. | ||
| What? | ||
| Fantastic. | ||
| Which introduces and raises the question. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Who's her? | |
| Yeah, was her grandma a Pleiadian? | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Her grandma was a Pleiadian. | ||
| Maybe. | ||
| I mean, there's no way to know when it started in the book. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| That's a good point. | ||
| Could have been that... | ||
| But Eddie Page said that there's only like 10 or 11 in existence. | ||
| No, no, no, no, no. | ||
| There's a bunch of them, but not his brothers and sisters. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, okay. | |
| So what she's implying there, because she does say, I call him my brother. | ||
| Because they're both lead. | ||
| Which would suggest that maybe she's one of the ones from his... | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| He knows 10 or 11. Even according to Eddie, there's more Pleiadians than just those 11 or whatever. | ||
| Okay, so... | ||
| You gonna talk this out? | ||
| First question. | ||
| How do you spend 30 years researching Helen Duncan? | ||
| When, like, even an hour or two will get you to, like... | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Huh, she threw up cheesecloth and refused to, uh... | ||
| Submit to any real tests at all. | ||
| Very short amount of research necessary. | ||
| I suppose if you're only looking for research that proves she's real, it's going to take 30 years to get anything. | ||
| Oh, you're going to run into a lot of dead ends. | ||
| You're going to run into a lot of dead ends. | ||
| You're going to need some weird-ass documentarian to meet up with you after you've encouraged a racist to call himself a Pleiadian. | ||
| And then, no! | ||
| Because then you know what happened! | ||
| You know what happened! | ||
| The same thing fucking happened to her that happened to Carrie. | ||
| She was finally challenging Eddie Page on some bullshit, and he was like, holy shit, you're a Bleedian too! | ||
| Yes. | ||
| That is exactly what happened. | ||
| A hundred percent. | ||
| So she was meeting Eddie Page. | ||
| A hundred percent. | ||
| She was talking about her story with Eddie Page. | ||
| Eddie got back into a corner. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yep. | |
| Because he is fucking weak sauce personified. | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| He's a limp noodle of a conspiracy. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, yeah. | |
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| He's weak as fuck. | ||
| So then he calls her a Pleiadian, and she's crazy enough because she's somehow also been conned by her dead grandmother. | ||
| How many people has her dead grandmother conned from beyond the grave? | ||
| Well, so far, three. | ||
| And they're all on. | ||
| Yeah, that's a good point. | ||
| Because Eddie Page might not believe it. | ||
| He might just be a gifted opportunist. | ||
| So man, when I was getting this episode ready, I thought it was really funny as I listened to it that like... | ||
| They are so incredulous and just they're like, oh yeah, absolutely. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| Despite all evidence to the contrary. | ||
| Literally all the evidence. | ||
| They believe in this magical seance woman. | ||
| But then when it got towards the end and I heard that, I was like, oh baby. | ||
| Oh, that's amazing. | ||
| I did not see that coming. | ||
| She's responsible for Eddie Page being in our world. | ||
| I did not see that coming. | ||
| Thank her and castigate her for it. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| But then also, my god damn. | ||
| I wonder. | ||
| I wonder so much about this because it's, you know, I don't necessarily believe that there's something magical about, like, really weird coincidences. | ||
| But her meeting Eddie Page, if it wasn't, like, some sort of conference they were at... | ||
| He's pretty weird, because Eddie Page does have videos of himself from back in, like, the 90s and hypnotic regression shit talking about aliens. | ||
| Oh, really? | ||
| Stuff like that. | ||
| Like, there's evidence that he's been... | ||
| He's been around for a while. | ||
| He's been on this tip for a long time. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| And so, like, the idea that someone with just enough... | ||
| Evidence from the satanic panic era that he's not really used yet, and the granddaughter of a famous con woman would end up meeting each other in England. | ||
| God, are they married? | ||
| They should be. | ||
| They should be married. | ||
| There's no doubt. | ||
| They'd be the worst children. | ||
| Oh, God, but they'd be so dumb. | ||
| The biggest liars. | ||
| They would be the dumbest children. | ||
| Racist-ass liars. | ||
| I don't know, man. | ||
| It's awesome. | ||
| But, here's the thing. | ||
| Movie pitch. | ||
| We find out that the granddaughter of... | ||
| Let's go with Mata Hari. | ||
| Why not? | ||
| Sure. | ||
| All right? | ||
| Granddaughter of Mata Hari falls in love with the grandson of Ian Fleming. | ||
| But it turns out that both of them are simultaneously spying on each other. | ||
| No, I think I just wrote Mr. and Mrs. Smith. | ||
| Never mind. | ||
| Never mind. | ||
| Kind of. | ||
| But we could remake that so a couple other celebrities who are really hot could get together. | ||
| It's very exciting. | ||
| Mr. and Mrs. Smith, anytime you make it, we're going to fuck. | ||
| It's just too sexual of an intellectual property. | ||
| It's a great, great intellectual property. | ||
| It's too sexy. | ||
| It's much like... | ||
| That's my new pickup line. | ||
| Hey, you want to make Mr. and Mrs. Smith together? | ||
| That's not a bad pickup line. | ||
| So we might be sitting here and saying, like, all right, Eddie Page told her that she's a Pleiadian, which I think is an amazing theory. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But unfortunately, it's not true. | ||
| There's proof. | ||
| I had some blood work done. | ||
| I said, could you please check my blood type? | ||
| And so I had my blood test, and sure enough, I'm one of them. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| So even at the end there, Carrie is like, I don't want to talk about this. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I don't want to talk about another goddamn Pleiadian showing up on my show. | |
| Pleiadians, sure, sure, move along. | ||
| Next one, we're talking about Helen Duncan. | ||
| Not you! | ||
| Right, this isn't about you being an alien. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Man, it's awesome. | ||
| This is like, I love the way that the, like, if you listen to this show of this Project Camelot episode. | ||
| You just hear stray names and not really know so much. | ||
| But because we've started covering a bunch of this, there's so much robust lying that's going on. | ||
| It's an incestuous community. | ||
| It really is. | ||
| It really is. | ||
| They all fucking know each other. | ||
| There's a lot of liars propping each other up. | ||
| It's great. | ||
| That is... | ||
| Oh, it's such a... | ||
|
unidentified
|
It's a lot like The Promise. | |
| I'm going to blame all of this on Iron Man. | ||
| Because Iron Man popularized the Marvel Universe. | ||
| And that led to all of these team-ups happening. | ||
| This is all Iron Man's fault. | ||
| I'm going to blame Iron Man for this. | ||
| PC, Project Camelot predates this. | ||
| Yeah, but I don't care. | ||
| Predates the MCU. | ||
| Yeah, but they haven't... | ||
| It doesn't predate the MCU. | ||
| Yeah, I think it does. | ||
| The MCU has been around since the 40s. | ||
| I mean, the cinematic universe. | ||
| Yeah, fine. | ||
| That's what I'm talking about. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Fine. | |
| That's what the C in that is. | ||
| They have been... | ||
| You dick. | ||
| You a fucking asshole? | ||
| Oh, you're right. | ||
| That's exactly right. | ||
| I am an asshole. | ||
| That's my bad. | ||
| That's my bad. | ||
| You're trying to throw nerd shit at me. | ||
| I just assumed that it was Marvel entirely. | ||
| I did not even consider it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
My bad. | |
| No, no, no. | ||
| I'm an asshole. | ||
| I also get a minus one. | ||
| Minus one. | ||
| Not for a second am I going to cut that out. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Minus one. | |
| I'm getting myself a minus one. | ||
| I think that's a minus three. | ||
| Minus three. | ||
| It goes against your character. | ||
| God damn it. | ||
| It's Iron Man's fault all over again. | ||
| Perhaps. | ||
| So, man, this is great. | ||
| I love this stuff. | ||
| This is great. | ||
| I love this, because there's no stakes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Uh-uh. | |
| You know, like, when we're talking about... | ||
| Unfortunately, we found a couple of, like, fairly heavy episodes of Jim Baker, like, with Paula White Kane. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| The reality of the influence in the world is kind of a bummer, even if we're talking about a guy selling food buckets. | ||
| So that's not even much of a retreat, necessarily, from the world. | ||
| But, like... | ||
| Getting a juicy episode of Project Camelot is such... | ||
| The sweetest of fruits. | ||
| It's just such a delight. | ||
| There's no stakes. | ||
| It's just a walk in the park laughing at weirdos. | ||
| And we don't even have a racist this time. | ||
| Although she is a suspected racist until proven otherwise. | ||
| We do have implications of her facilitating a racist. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Which might as well be the same thing. | ||
| More or less, yeah. | ||
| If you're propping up racists... | ||
| Then you at the very least sympathize with them in a way that condemns you. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So at the end of the day... | ||
| Let alone if you're a Pleiadian racist. | ||
| At the end of the day, I find no evidence from this episode that they present that, like, Helen Duncan was framed. | ||
| No evidence that Ian Fleming was even involved in the case. | ||
| No evidence that Churchill was fucking involved in the case. | ||
| No evidence that she had any real gifts that weren't sleight of hand or weird cons like throwing something up in a cabinet. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| You know, like, all this stuff is just this awesome remnant of the past. | ||
| Which is not to discount her. | ||
| No. | ||
| If she was running a scam like that and pulling it off, good on her! | ||
| That's worthy of a documentary praising her! | ||
| To some extent, I agree with you. | ||
| I think... | ||
| I don't know, man. | ||
| I go back and forth on it. | ||
| Because I do think that it does indicate a really high intellect. | ||
| And it indicates cunning, that sort of thing. | ||
| Cunning, I would say, more than intellect. | ||
| Cunning and creativity. | ||
| I always think that cleverness is kind of a part of intellect. | ||
| You think so? | ||
| Yeah, I think it's a form of intelligence. | ||
| And so I'll give her, like, she's high-functioning. | ||
| Especially for the time. | ||
| Oh yeah, for sure. | ||
| Being able to get out of the box that society would probably want her to be in and live like that, I do tip my hat to that. | ||
| But at the same time, I am living a life and my entire work. | ||
| So it's difficult for me to be like, just because it was a woman in the 1920s, 1930s doing the con, it doesn't really work for me as much as I want to be super into elevating class, classes and disenfranchised. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| stepping out of their boundaries. | ||
| I do support that, but at the same time, because it leads to fraud... | ||
| I have to be against it. | ||
| You know what? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| What I want to know is a detailed list of her clients. | ||
| Because if she's Robin Hooding, if she's only defrauding rich ladies, I'm fine with that. | ||
| But if she's defrauding regular old people, then she can go fuck herself. | ||
| I'm pretty positive from everything I looked into is a lot of very normal people. | ||
| Ah, well then that's no good. | ||
| Now I'm against her. | ||
| I want the Robin Hood cons. | ||
| That's what I want. | ||
| I want her to go around to like... | ||
| Like the Sean David Morton stealing from Carrie Cassidy. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah! | |
| That's low stakes. | ||
| Yeah, you got it coming, man. | ||
| One good turn deserves you losing $113,000. | ||
| $16,000. | ||
| $16,000. | ||
| Yeah, it's like the bitter fruit of the pool you swim in. | ||
| Live by the con, die by the con. | ||
| That's how it works. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So... | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I don't know if we come away with any larger truth there, but... | ||
| Everything's fun. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Anyway, guys, if you like the show, please do check out our website, knowledgefight.com. | ||
| Indeed. | ||
| You can also follow us on Twitter, at knowledgefight. | ||
| Correct. | ||
| We're on Facebook. | ||
| We are. | ||
| You can go home and tell your mother your brother. | ||
| Great Facebook group. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Absolutely. | |
| Also, if you're still listening, if you have liked our site on Facebook, like if you've liked Knowledge Fight, Please just join the group. | ||
| I don't know how to say this without being really blunt about it, but the way Facebook works, if I post something to the group, 30 of our fans will see it, or something like that, unless I pay them to promote the content. | ||
| In the group, everyone sees it. | ||
| It works differently the way things are distributed. | ||
| In the group, people see things. | ||
| So if you actually want to keep up with the show, The group, go home and tell your mother you're brilliant, is the way to do it. | ||
| Our Facebook page is largely inactive and inert because it bums me out really hard when no one sees any of the shit that we post. | ||
| So I just never post anything on there. | ||
| It's kind of a dead page. | ||
| The group is where all the action's at. | ||
| Go home and tell your mother you're brilliant. | ||
| It is a private group, but if you request to join, we'll just let people in. | ||
| And that's a message even to the InfoWarriors or even Alex, if you're listening. | ||
| We'll just let you in. | ||
| Who gives a shit? | ||
| Although you're still on your suspension, so your personal account. | ||
| We will kick you out. | ||
| There are moderators. | ||
| And hey, if you want to, I have emailed and direct messaged and all this shit, like 10 million fucking journalists. | ||
| You're acting like this is the first time. | ||
| I've done this a couple times in the past as well. | ||
| I know. | ||
| No one gives a shit. | ||
| It's so many, it's so many, so many no answers. | ||
| Like even when I was, even I was trying to... | ||
| Not even polite. | ||
| We're not interested. | ||
| Just zero response from anybody. | ||
| And I was talking about with this, Nate Burroughs came over the other night to pick up some shit he'd left in the house. | ||
| He was asking how things are going. | ||
| I'm like, well, you know, we found a lot of stuff out that's really interesting, but no one cares. | ||
| And he's like, well, you know, it does sound crazy. | ||
| I'm like, yeah, absolutely. | ||
| That's the point! | ||
| We send messages to people and it... | ||
| Does make sense that they would not respond. | ||
| Right, no, of course. | ||
| It makes sense that they'd be like, oh, this is a crazy person. | ||
| They have no reason to think that we actually look into things. | ||
| No, of course not. | ||
| And have an even keel on it. | ||
| No, we talk to people who cover, or I email and direct message people who cover Alex Jones, and even they have to be like... | ||
| Man, these guys are probably crazy. | ||
| What are you doing? | ||
| But at the same time, they don't cover him the same way we do, so it makes sense. | ||
| They have a differing of philosophies. | ||
| I'm bummed out more by this. | ||
| Whenever I used to try and get published as a writer, whenever I was 19 and 20 and I was sending out all of these short stories, at least I would get a rejection letter. | ||
| If you guys want to... | ||
| Bother all the people that I've messaged enough for them to send me no, and then I'll feel great. | ||
| Anyone who's written for, like, Right Wing Watch about Alex Jones, anyone who writes for Media Matters about them, please feel free not to harass them. | ||
| No, don't harass them. | ||
| But send them a message. | ||
| Let them know we're not crazy. | ||
| Give them some groundswell. | ||
| But then... | ||
| Or don't. | ||
| We're bad at this. | ||
| Please don't go out of your way to do anything. | ||
| We just appreciate you listening and supporting the show. | ||
| Don't go out of your way to do anything. | ||
| The other thing, too, that I feel very different about it, just the emotional sensation of it, is when I used to run comedy shows and I'd send out press releases and try and get press for the comedy show or whatever, whenever I didn't get a response, I was like, well, yeah, this is like the event page of Metro Mix or the reader. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| And I'm like... | ||
| Every goddamn comedy show is probably sending them boilerplate trash. | ||
| And I understand why no one would respond. | ||
| It feels different now because I know it's probably not the case, but it feels personal. | ||
| It feels like they think we're crazy. | ||
| And that to me is such a bummer. | ||
| If you guys would just engage a tiny bit with what we're trying to bring to the table, you'd see, no, we're not people who think that he works for Israel. | ||
| We're not people who go down the dumb paths. | ||
| We just want to help. | ||
| You know, actually, what's crazy is I didn't even consider that angle. | ||
| I always thought, like, legit, I kept thinking, oh, they're not responding because they're not interested. | ||
| It never occurred to me that they're not responding because anybody who messages them about Alex Jones is probably crazy. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Of course they're not responding. | ||
| That's absolutely where my head is. | ||
| Never mind. | ||
| I retract that statement. | ||
| Congratulations to everybody who has not responded to me. | ||
| You have learned your lesson well. | ||
| Unfortunately, you missed the boat this one time. | ||
| Well, and the boat will keep on getting missed. | ||
| Ain't that the truth. | ||
| It's some other thought, but I lost it. | ||
| Oh, I got it. | ||
| Some people have pointed out that Kelly, Alex's ex-wife, has been on a bunch of shows lately. | ||
| She was on the Stuttering John podcast. | ||
| She gets to go on shit and nobody... | ||
| Ah, fucking Christ. | ||
| That's not what I'm talking about. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| No, that's what I'm talking about. | ||
| You go talk about what you want to do. | ||
| There have been some implications of, like, she's been on a lot of shows, she could come on yours. | ||
| No. | ||
| Right. | ||
| I want to be clear, without saying anything too specific or anything, she would have come on our show. | ||
| But I decided it wasn't good for either of us. | ||
| We never were really in close contact, but... | ||
| I know for sure she would have come on our show, and I made an executive decision that it wasn't good for our show, it wasn't good for her, the goals that she's trying to achieve. | ||
| I would much sooner talk to Larry Nichols again, or try and find Hamamoto. | ||
| I want to find Hamamoto now. | ||
| We could get Hamamoto. | ||
| I think we could get him. | ||
| We got a burrito, if you're out there. | ||
| Get me Hamamoto! | ||
| You've been very good at finding people's information. | ||
| For no reason that we can think of. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Never mind. | |
| See if you can find out Hamamoto. | ||
| Anyway, Jordan, this has been a lot of fun. | ||
| This has been a lot of fun. | ||
| I think we've got to end this, and it is your turn. | ||
| Oh, man. | ||
| Well, there aren't any heroes. | ||
| I know who I would say, but it's on you. | ||
| I would say that the guy who ran a cruise comes to mind. | ||
| Yeah, but I'm really hoping that he's going to... | ||
| Put that second cruise together and call it Medium Ship. | ||
| I do like that name. | ||
| That sounds like a good name to me. | ||
| I did silently laugh when you said that. | ||
| I don't want to ruin that possibility. | ||
| If he hears about this, he's not going to take my idea to make the Medium Ship. | ||
| No. | ||
| And he's going to be very offended that I told him to go fuck himself. | ||
| And it would be great if it wasn't a super large ship. | ||
| If there was a lot of words. | ||
| But it would also be great if it wasn't too small. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Right in the middle. | ||
| Somewhere in the middle. | ||
| Right in the middle. | ||
| You could call it the Mean Ship as well. | ||
| Sure. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Man, I'm going to go with, you know what? | |
| I think the true villain always comes back. | ||
| I'm going to go with, go fuck yourself, Mark Richards. | ||
| Hey, look out for Raptors. | ||
| Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. | ||
| Thanks for holding. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Alex. | |
| I'm a first-time caller. | ||
| I'm a huge fan. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I love your work. |