#55: Megyn Kelly Interview Pt. 2
Today, Dan tells Jordan all about the good and bad (mostly not great) points about Megyn Kelly's interview with Alex Jones.
June 19, 2017 - Knowledge Fight
01:12:52
Participants
| 
| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. | ||
| Thanks for holding. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Alex. | |
| I'm a first time caller. | ||
| I'm a huge fan. | ||
| I love your work. | ||
| I love you. | ||
| Hey everybody, welcome back to Knowledge Fight. | ||
| I'm Dan. | ||
| I'm Jordan. | ||
| We're a couple of dudes sit around, drink novelty beverages, and talk about Alex Jones. | ||
| Jesus, you are rushing through this shit. | ||
| Yeah, you might as well call me... | ||
| Call me? | ||
| Do you want to go with that? | ||
| Do you want to go with the Russian investigation pun? | ||
| I'm rushing my investigation into Alex Jones. | ||
| There you go. | ||
| And I don't know anything about Alex Jones. | ||
| So we're back for part two of our coverage of the Megyn Kelly interview. | ||
| We have done pre-game, and now this is post-game interview. | ||
| And, uh, boy, I'll tell you... | ||
| I'll tell you what, she fucking nailed him to the wall. | ||
| Really? | ||
| Nope. | ||
| Oh, goddammit, Dan. | ||
| You gave me hope for one second. | ||
| I'll tell you that, I'll give you a summation of what I think ahead of time. | ||
| It's very predictable. | ||
| Uh-huh. | ||
| Alex Jones does not need tapes secretly made of these. | ||
| I don't want to call Megan Kelly shit because that's not fair. | ||
| And she has a career behind her. | ||
| She's a trained journalist and it's easy to armchair quarterback to say, could have done better. | ||
| Right. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But the reality is she got so close. | |
| Oh, really? | ||
| She got so close and also so far. | ||
| Ah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
There were a couple moments where... | |
| Isn't that always the way of it? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
There were a couple moments that were like, oh, legitimately like, push it, push it, push it. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Right. | ||
| It's clear that a further intention of it is to make more explicit the connection between Alex Jones and Donald Trump. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Those two things are very clear. | ||
| I wouldn't say it's necessarily a hatchet job. | ||
| It's just, it's not good. | ||
| It's not right. | ||
| It's not what she should have done. | ||
| Well, was it an entertaining interview? | ||
| Like, did she accomplish that? | ||
| Not for me, but I know a lot about Alex Jones. | ||
| Right. | ||
| You know, so for me, there were a couple moments where I was impressed that she had dug something up, but that we have covered. | ||
| Okay, well... | ||
| There are a couple of moments where I was like, you might have listened to our show. | ||
| No, certainly not, but it's like, oh, that's outside. | ||
| That's outside the mainstream. | ||
| Good. | ||
| Because there's a couple things that have reached the zeitgeist, the turning frogs gay, everything that's been memed. | ||
| Calling Schiff a cocksucker. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| These things are, or even Trump's call when he called into the show. | ||
| These are the things that are in public consciousness. | ||
| There are a couple moments where she pulls out something like, oh, damn. | ||
| Some Islamophobia shit? | ||
| No, we'll get to it. | ||
| I have just segmented the entire report. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| And let's just start it off. | ||
| We'll go with where she begins. | ||
| So if you've listened to the pregame interview, that was six and a half hours long. | ||
| And if you've cut together the entire interview this time, it will be... | ||
| Five and a half hours long. | ||
| Not a chance. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| This has way less to discuss, quite frankly. | ||
| All right. | ||
| I do have some suggestions of what I wish you would have done, certainly, and I'm sure you'll have some of your own, but I think we could probably get this done in an hour. | ||
| We could bang this out? | ||
| Yeah, I think so. | ||
| All right. | ||
| So here we go. | ||
| First tonight, our report on the incendiary radio host, Alex Jones. | ||
| I'm already out! | ||
| For years, Jones has been spreading conspiracy theories. | ||
| Claiming, for instance, that elements of the U.S. government allowed the 9-11 attacks to happen and that the horrific Sandy Hook massacre was a hoax. | ||
| Some thought we shouldn't broadcast this interview because his baseless allegations aren't just offensive, they're dangerous. | ||
| But here's the thing. | ||
| Alex Jones isn't going away. | ||
| Over the years, his YouTube channel has racked up 1.3 billion views. | ||
| He has millions of listeners. | ||
| And the ear of our current president. | ||
| We begin our report with his reaction to the recent terrorist attack in Manchester, England. | ||
| So, that's her introduction to the piece, and I really don't like the tone of it, because it sounds like she's asking for help. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| There is a submissiveness, not like, ah, she's a weak woman, but there is an implicit, like, you guys... | ||
| The president listens to him. | ||
| Right. | ||
| I just wrote down rationalization. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Like, that was the first thought I had listening to that intro, is she heard all of the criticism. | ||
| Because I'm assuming that this was recorded after there was some blowback. | ||
| Well, I mean, she even says, people said we shouldn't post this. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| So, this whole thing is like, we did this interview, you told us not to. | ||
| But here's why we're doing it for you. | ||
| Right, and I agree with the basic premise that, like, hey guys, take him seriously. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Seeing as how that's our premise. | ||
| The angle that I would come from is not the president listens to him, he has millions of viewers, because that empowers him. | ||
| Right. | ||
| The angle that I would take is he is an out-and-out bigot, he is a monster, and he lies all the time. | ||
| Which is very reminiscent of the president whose ear he has. | ||
| Right, but if you make that line so, you know, if you make such a big deal out of that, then it, to dumb people, it kind of reinforces Alex. | ||
| Right. | ||
| In the same way the press credentials are an illusory thing where you can just get them. | ||
| Uh-huh. | ||
| Like, that's a stunt or whatever. | ||
| It reinforces him in some people's eyes. | ||
| I think it's the wrong way to go. | ||
| He has over a billion views. | ||
| So, this man is powerful. | ||
| I have reached a powerful man. | ||
| He has millions of listeners. | ||
| Regardless of whether or not he does. | ||
| Well, the thing is, in order to make the premise of her piece work, she has to build him up to take him down. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| And that is kind of foolish. | ||
| Because if you have the introduction being like... | ||
| He has the ear of a strong president. | ||
| He has billions of listeners. | ||
| Blah, blah, blah. | ||
| All this, all you're doing is making your job harder. | ||
| If you say, he has lots of people who listen to him, but they're people who are being lied to, and you clearly demarcate, like, most of his narratives have to do with bigotry. | ||
| Most of them have to do with white identity. | ||
| If you do that... | ||
| You can come at it from a more robust perspective to begin with, and in a way that doesn't explicitly empower him. | ||
| But she can't open that way. | ||
| You could. | ||
| I could do it. | ||
| Yes, but she can't. | ||
| I mean, on NBC, she can't. | ||
| Probably not. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Probably not. | ||
| It would be, and that would be like... | ||
| That would be a fucking flamethrower across the bow. | ||
| Yeah, somewhat. | ||
| Like, we're gonna light this shit on... | ||
| Fire and get the fuck out. | ||
| But somewhat, that's what you kind of have to do. | ||
| Yeah, well, exactly. | ||
| It's fucking Alex Jones! | ||
| He's an emotional guy, and he does hit people on an emotional level, because clearly it's not on a rational level. | ||
| No, and Megan tries to play some of those games, that emotional stuff, as we'll see as it goes on, and it's a completely ineffective tactic. | ||
| Tactic. | ||
| Tactic. | ||
| It's an ineffective tactic. | ||
| As she introduced, they wanted to start with the Manchester. | ||
| She gets into that, and here we go. | ||
| Alex Jones was nearly 5,000 miles away from Manchester, England, when a suicide bomber killed 22 people at a concert less than four weeks ago. | ||
| Despite the distance and with few facts known, Jones did what he often does, jumped mouth-first into controversy. | ||
| A big bomb goes off at a pop star's rock concert bombing a bunch of liberal trendies. | ||
| You said it was a bunch of liberal trendies who were killed, the same people who are promoting open borders, bringing Islamists in. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| In response to which many people looked at the victims, many of whom were 15, 14. I'm sorry I didn't blow them up. | ||
| I did something bad, though. | ||
| No, that you would suggest that an 8-year-old, right? | ||
| There was Safi Rose Rousseau, 8 years old, that she was a liberal trendie. | ||
| Because that's what you said about the victims, is what has people upset. | ||
| No, no, the media misrepresenting and clipping that the way you did. | ||
| Right out the gate, Alex. | ||
| I heard about it. | ||
| The ages of the victims weren't even known, but they were saying it was jihadi. | ||
| And I said, how crazy is it that liberal trainees are now the victims? | ||
| And then... | ||
| I start going and looking. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Of course, if there's kids being killed by Muslims, I'm not saying that it's their fault. | |
| You blame their parents! | ||
| You blame them! | ||
| Equivocations and excuses is classic Alex Jones. | ||
| So Megan is giving a little bit too much leeway to the audience. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
|
unidentified
|
To draw their own conclusions. | |
| She needed to press much harder on the fact that he straight up just That's bullshit. | ||
| On our episode about that, he very clearly said that it was the parents' fault. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| That their kids died. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| It was the parents who supported open borders who were the cause of their own children's death. | ||
| Now, if you were to bring that up to him, he'd be like, yeah, that's proof that I didn't say this eight-year-old was a liberal trendy. | ||
| I was talking about the parents. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I was talking about how it's the parents' fault that their kids died. | ||
| Yeah, and let's just fucking deal with this for a second, too, before we get to it. | ||
| There is a lot of Sandy Hook stuff here, and apparently I haven't seen it, but I saw on Twitter that it's being reported that Alex Jones put out a Sandy Hook video tonight. | ||
| Oh, no. | ||
| Apparently, and I'm not 100% sure on this, I should reload his channel and see if there is a video that he has put out. | ||
| But from what I understand, he was going to put out a video pleading to... | ||
| Yep, yep, here it is. | ||
| Alex Jones' Father's Day message to Newtown families. | ||
| Oh, fuck. | ||
| Fucking Christ. | ||
| And he apparently claims that the mainstream media lies about him and he wants to start a dialogue directly with them, which is... | ||
| Fucking no. | ||
| That's abuse. | ||
| That in and of itself is abusive to these families. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| If it wasn't about murdered children, that's great trolling. | ||
| But it is, so it's not. | ||
| But yeah, he's lying about what he said about Manchester, even in this interview. | ||
| She's just allowing him to lie on television and not pressing the issue that, oh, you just said that you didn't know what you were talking about when you posted this video that people are going to listen to. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And people think it's the truth. | ||
| And not only that, but you... | ||
| You just admitted you lied! | ||
| You constantly say that you are always proven correct. | ||
| Yep. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Always vindicated. | |
| 99% of the time, you are always proven correct. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Dumb dumb. | ||
| Anyway, after this, she gets into discussion of Trump stuff. | ||
| They can just carte blanche, go anywhere they want. | ||
| He has spent nearly two decades on the fringe, shouting his conspiracy theories into any microphone he could get in front of. | ||
| Here he is on Austin Community Television in 2001. | ||
| Tyranny is enveloping the globe. | ||
| I wanted to pause it for a second because the way she frames it the entire time is conspiracy theories. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| And as we know from researching him for the last six months, that's not at all really an accurate depiction of what he is or what he does. | ||
| Maybe it was at the beginning. | ||
| Right, but it is not. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| It is absolutely not. | ||
| And I know that you gotta... | ||
| The limitations of news magazine shows... | ||
| Are real, and I understand you've got to work within a network, and you can't say something that could get you sued, because you have standards, unlike Alex. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But it's so reductive to call him a conspiracy theorist when you don't follow up with... | ||
| Most of your conspiracies really dovetail into race and fucking masculinity. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Do you think that's interesting, Alex? | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| And she doesn't really get into that, and that's kind of disappointing. | ||
| Well, just like we... | ||
| I don't know if we talked about this on air. | ||
| But we definitely texted about it where it's like, no news station, no news station will directly come out and say, you are espousing white nationalist beliefs. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| That's not going to happen. | ||
| Nope. | ||
| And that's the only thing that should happen. | ||
| Until it's way too late. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| And then it'll be some rogue channel. | ||
| Even if they interviewed like Richard Spencer, they wouldn't be like... | ||
| You've declared yourself a white nationalist. | ||
| Well, W. Kamau Bell interviewed Richard Spencer, and half of the stuff that I saw on Twitter about it was Charles Barkley giving a side eye. | ||
| You know, most of it was about Charles Barkley being surprised by the things that Richard Spencer says. | ||
| Jesus. | ||
| And, look, I'm not going to say that that is... | ||
| Look, that's another issue for another day. | ||
| Right. | ||
| He and his company Infowars have been steadily gaining followers for years, producing radio shows and webcasts, which reach millions a month. | ||
| But Jones' influence hit new heights when he attracted a very famous fan, then-presidential candidate Donald Trump. | ||
| I just want to finish by saying your reputation's amazing. | ||
| In December 2015, Mr. Trump appeared on Jones' radio program, offering praise and promises. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I will not let you down. | |
| You will be very, very impressed, I hope. | ||
| And I think we'll be speaking a lot better. | ||
| So, I think that there's a really bad, missed opportunity to go into the investigation that we're doing into 2015. | ||
| If she would have just listened to something from that time period and heard Alex saying, Donald Trump is a con man, he's the front man for some consortiums on the East Coast. | ||
| you could make this part of your interview really much more interesting right because you're talking about how Trump is you know praising That would be tough. | ||
| Exactly! | ||
| That's exactly what I was thinking. | ||
| You are dipping in to get what you want, and then you are getting the fuck out. | ||
| Like, legitimately, if they knew about us, they should have reached out. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Because we have done it already. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| We have the information they need. | ||
| Right, exactly. | ||
| Which kind of sucks, but it also... | ||
| This is me sucking my own dick a little bit, so... | ||
| Well, you're... | ||
| You may... | ||
| I mean, again, I still... | ||
| You're the only person who listens to Alex Jones every day. | ||
| Critically. | ||
| Yeah, well, I mean, it's insane. | ||
| There's probably a lot of people who listen and are just like, yeah, get him, Alex. | ||
| Right. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That sort of shit. | |
| But even then, I would imagine that a lot of it is just, when you're listening to it, because this happens to tons of people who listen to the radio, where it's like, you just phase in and out. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| You know, you're listening during something. | ||
| I'm listening and taking notes. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| Yeah, so, yeah. | ||
| Anyway. | ||
| You don't remember, but again, he deals with an emotional level, and so you don't remember the dumb shit he says. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| If you're a fan of his. | ||
| Real easy to just, the water goes under that bridge. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| What you remember is, he made me feel like I had a voice. | ||
| He charged me up. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Now he was lying to charge you up. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| And, you know, a couple months later, you don't remember when his narrative was a complete bullshit lie. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| But the damage is done. | ||
| He made you feel that way. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| You know, what is it? | ||
| The serotonin kicked into your brain, the dopamine receptors, the oxytocin came out like you just had an orgasm. | ||
| That is a barrage of different brain chemicals. | ||
| Yeah, anyway, she says more about Trump. | ||
| Separately, both men had supported the false statement that Barack Obama was not a natural-born citizen. | ||
| Donald Trump is surging! | ||
| And they've had more in common since. | ||
| I agree with Trump on that. | ||
| He agrees with me. | ||
| Because I've got articles. | ||
| He's following Alex on coal. | ||
| He's following Alex on guns. | ||
| He's following Alex on borders. | ||
| The 2016 campaign was good for Infowars. | ||
| Its YouTube monthly views reached 83 million in November 2016, more than five times higher than the previous November. | ||
| And when Mr. Trump won, Alex Jones found himself with access to the seat of power. | ||
| InfoWars got a temporary White House press pass for the first time, and Jones says Mr. Trump called him after the election to thank him for his help. | ||
| You have said that it's surreal to say something on InfoWars and then hear it come out of the President of the United States' mouth a couple days later. | ||
| I mean, that has happened, but... | ||
| Do you think he's watching? | ||
| I mean, I know Trump watches and sees the clips and things. | ||
| We did find indications of that. | ||
| On July 22, 2015, InfoWars put up this video. | ||
| Claiming it showed drug trafficking along the U.S.-Mexico border, although we don't know what it actually shows. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We actually witnessed a drug smuggling operation from Mexico in to the U.S. So that is from an episode that might have gotten lost to the sands of time. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| We discussed this in our investigation back in 2015. | ||
| Joe Biggs went down to Laredo and may or may not have caught a drug deal on tape and then lied about being chased by cartels. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But that's the one that I'm impressed she found. | ||
| In case you never hear what may be a lost episode. | ||
| You may or may not. | ||
| You may or may not. | ||
| The point that I lovingly made was that if they had caught a cartel, they would be fucking beheaded by now. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| They'd have their fingers... | ||
| Oh, it would be gone. | ||
| ...prints gone. | ||
| Yeah, no, it's made up. | ||
| They're dead. | ||
| Yeah, so she makes a great point that we don't know what was on that tape. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And I think we made that point as well, but I'm still impressed that she found that. | ||
| That is a good one. | ||
| Because that's not something that's necessarily one of the main attacks. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And from 2015, that's, I mean, that's cool. | ||
| I appreciate it. | ||
| No, that's not bad. | ||
| So, here we go. | ||
| Days later, Mr. Trump gave this speech in Iowa. | ||
| Big story, it's all over the place now. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Guys swimming across, and big bags of stuff, drugs, swimming across the river. | |
| This was InfoWars previewing the first presidential debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. | ||
| I think she's going to show up and on drugs, though. | ||
| She's going to be locked up. | ||
| And Mr. Trump's take not long after. | ||
| We should take a drug test, because I don't know what's going on with her. | ||
| Donald Trump ally and frequent InfoWars guest Roger Stone underscored the connection between Jones and the Trump campaign in a tweet last spring. | ||
| It read, MSM elites don't see that Alex Jones and InfoWars reach millions of Donald Trump supporters and helped make the Trump revolution. | ||
| That's another good one, because a lot of people aren't talking about the direct connection between Stone and Jones, right? | ||
| No, they are. | ||
| I mean, yeah. | ||
| Stones and Jones sounds like a very good TV show. | ||
| No, but it's going to be on the InfoWars network that God forbid ever happens. | ||
| I disagree. | ||
| I think people are aware that Roger Stone is on Infowars all the time. | ||
| People who know who Roger Stone is. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But then beyond that, all of those things just, again, buttress his credibility or buttress his importance. | ||
| Right. | ||
| You know, there is the Trump keeps repeating him. | ||
| Roger Stone, an ally of Trump, has said that they were integral in the success of the, quote, Trump revolution. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And now there's a little piece of the interview that she plays that I think might, on first glance, sound bad, but I don't think it does. | ||
| Donald Trump. | ||
| While Jones has boasted of his contact with the president on his radio show, he downplayed it in his interview with us, claiming the mainstream media, or MSM, has exaggerated their connection. | ||
| I think my influence on Trump is way, way lower than what MSM has said. | ||
| Well, what kind of access do you have? | ||
| He's just called sometimes and talked about politics or thanked me, stuff like that. | ||
| Would you describe yourself as friends? | ||
| No. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Friendly? | |
| Sure. | ||
| And how many times has he called you? | ||
| I don't want to get into all that. | ||
| So that sounds bad because obviously the number is very low. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But the people who are inclined to think Jones is pretty cool would see that as humility. | ||
| They would see that as discretion. | ||
| I don't want to talk about that. | ||
| That's not important. | ||
| Well, I think my initial reaction to that was he was saying, I don't want to get into that because the number is so large. | ||
| Like, that's the idea that I think is... | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's possible. | |
| That's the idea that I think he wants to get off is... | ||
| You think that's the perception he wants to leave people with? | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| It's possible. | ||
| I don't want to get into that because it happens, you know, it happens more than you would expect and more than you would be happy with. | ||
| Well, I think that flies counter to the beginning of that where he says that the MSM is exaggerating his influence on him. | ||
| Unless the point of that is to say that Trump is his own man and I can't influence him, but we talk all the time. | ||
| Yeah, well, no. | ||
| They cut that clip out of context, which is very much like when he was saying that stuff, he was also saying, I talk to Trump all the time. | ||
| If you recall the stuff that we've listened to many times, he's saying, you know, I have the ear of Trump. | ||
| And then later on that turned into, we don't talk. | ||
| But he's just doing the same Americana stuff. | ||
| We have a mind meld. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Yeah, it's possible. | ||
| And again, with this, he's obfuscating so well of, is it a lot? | ||
| Is it a little? | ||
| You don't know. | ||
| And I'm not going to make it clear. | ||
| I'm slippery. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And I want to make clear, there is, like, you can tell that it's edited. | ||
| As any late night news magazine is. | ||
| But I watched this through. | ||
| I don't think that there's anything that they play that is misrepresentative of Alex Jones' positions. | ||
| There are cuts in the video. | ||
| But that's how you make a salad. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Gotta chop it up. | ||
| And she is not doing a terrible job of setting up those clips. | ||
| I would prefer less of an NPR tone to her. | ||
| Yeah, it's a little in that wheelhouse. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It's very much that cadence. | ||
| It's that kind of tone and the volume of it. | ||
| Well, and whenever you... | ||
| Sort of allow him to, he's gonna lie. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And thankfully, a little bit later, there's a couple of instances of her... | ||
| Suppressing him on it? | ||
| A little bit. | ||
| And you do see him get flummoxed a little bit. | ||
| Okay, good. | ||
| But those are the moments when you need to go in for the haymaker. | ||
| You need to knock him out. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And she just doesn't have that right hook. | ||
| She just doesn't have whatever punch is needed. | ||
| Maybe it's a lack of information. | ||
| Maybe... | ||
| Or maybe she did. | ||
| Or... | ||
| No. | ||
| Maybe that... | ||
| Well, the thing is... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, maybe she did and it's not in there. | |
| Like, is it... | ||
| It's entirely possible that... | ||
| Well, what we've seen from Alex of just constant, like... | ||
| Desperation. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| And... | ||
| It's the end of the world. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And what is, like... | ||
| Did she have that haymaker and they just didn't cut it in there? | ||
| It's possible. | ||
| I mean, it serves everyone's purpose in terms of making money for them to not demolish him. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Exactly. | |
| But to shame him emotionally in some way. | ||
| But it doesn't serve anybody's purpose of actually dealing with the problem of Alex Jones. | ||
| Now, this is conspiracy territory for us, but I do like the idea that it is possible that there's some complete destruction that she has on tape. | ||
| And Alex was super scared that that was going to be in the piece. | ||
| And that's why, whenever they were doing their live broadcast on Infowars of the... | ||
| Champagne. | ||
|
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|
Yep. | |
| Yep, they were drinking champagne, as you told me. | ||
| Cernovich and Alex cheers in champagne glasses because that thing that would have destroyed me isn't in there. | ||
| Well, and you... | ||
| It wasn't... | ||
| It's not my conspiracy theory so much as it is kind of building off what you said earlier, which is that... | ||
| Or not earlier today, but on earlier episodes. | ||
| She may not know what it is she has. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| Like, that could be one of the problems there. | ||
| And this is the big thing, is that they don't live in that world. | ||
| No. | ||
| Like, they don't understand. | ||
| They're coming to it. | ||
| She doesn't bring up globalists once. | ||
| No. | ||
| Well, see, that's... | ||
| Bananas! | ||
| Yeah, there's no... | ||
| If you're gonna call him noted conspiracy theorist, the first thing you should say is, for 20 years he's been yelling about the globalists. | ||
| Which is either evidence that she works for the globalists. | ||
| Or a complete unwillingness to unpack that myth. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Because I think it does become maybe too difficult for news magazine television to get into, like, dude. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Are you serious? | ||
| Right. | ||
| So, I mean, it's possible. | ||
| But, yeah, I... | ||
| Well, and again, they wouldn't... | ||
| They're coming from an almost anthropological... | ||
| Like, already, this has the... | ||
|
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It has the feel of a Discovery Channel show. | |
| It has the feel of something that's almost... | ||
| Look at the lunatic in the wild. | ||
| It's almost too fair. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And even when they get into... | ||
| They're about to get into Sandy Hook. | ||
| Even that is almost too fair. | ||
| It's nice to him, almost. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Which is weird, because... | ||
| Because he's a fucking monster. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Now, admittedly, if somebody tried to cut down our stuff to 17 minutes, they would have to go through, what, 200 hours? | ||
| We're at minute 27. So here's the next clip. | ||
| What is it, do you think, about Alex Jones that President Trump finds so amazing? | ||
|
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|
That's a scary question. | |
| Charlie Sykes is a conservative writer and contributor to NBC News. | ||
| He's been critical of President Trump. | ||
|
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|
Obviously, there's a conspiratorial turn in the president's thinking and his imagination. | |
| This dude sucks. | ||
|
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|
And those darker impulses are fed into by Alex Jones. | |
| Jones speaks to his listeners for hours a day, six days a week. | ||
| His rants can be vulgar and hate-filled, like this one directed at a member of Congress. | ||
| Schiff looks like the archetypal and there's something about this fairy hopping around, bossing everybody around, trying to intimidate people like me and you. | ||
| I want to tell Congressman Schiff and all the rest of them, you want to sit here and say that I'm a Russian. | ||
| You get in my face with that. | ||
| I'll beat your ass, you son of a bitch. | ||
| So, again, she plays that and doesn't ask him, hey, how drunk were you? | ||
| You're crazy drunk. | ||
| How many ways are there to learn, Alex? | ||
| Where's Nonk? | ||
| Hey, did you ever end up selling that car? | ||
| Like, there's so much. | ||
| Just watch that fucking episode that you're taking, this clip that everyone has seen, because Media Matters pushed it out. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| Just go and watch that episode. | ||
| There's so much more. | ||
| So much more. | ||
| That's a goldmine. | ||
| Yeah, who gives a... | ||
| Like, that's the fun thing of that episode. | ||
| Who gives a shit about that rant? | ||
| That episode is bananas! | ||
| That's even the one that has the skull covered in semen. | ||
|
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|
Yeah! | |
| The diamond-encrusted skull covered in semen. | ||
| Did nobody actually watch that, or do they think that it's not going to be palatable? | ||
| I think that no one watched it. | ||
| I think that everyone just saw the clip that got posted around, went viral, and they don't think, like, what's the context of this? | ||
| What the fuck else was happening there? | ||
| They just think, oh, he's crazy. | ||
| He's yelling. | ||
| It's like, no, he does crazy yell, but that's drunk. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| He's fucking drunk. | ||
| That is fascinating that, are we maybe the only people who have been like, oh, that dude's shit-faced. | ||
| I've never heard anyone else talk about it. | ||
| Now, but that's it. | ||
| Nor have I heard anybody else bring up the other fucked up stuff he says on that episode. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Well, but the other thought about that, though, is that there's no way to conclusively prove he was drunk. | ||
| Right, but you can suggest it. | ||
| Excuse me, Alex. | ||
| While you went on that expletive-filled rant, also, they didn't play my favorite part, which is that he should fill his hand. | ||
| Fill your hand. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Were you shit-faced? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| How much wild turkey did you drink? | ||
| Noted podcast knowledge fight. | ||
| Posted this picture. | ||
| Noted. | ||
| No, let that one go. | ||
| Don't add that adjective in there. | ||
| Award-winning podcast. | ||
| They posted a picture of you with a drink in your hand. | ||
| What do you say to that? | ||
| That is crazy. | ||
| But that would be easy for him to get away from it. | ||
| It's water. | ||
| I was tired. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But I just think, come on. | ||
| Know the context of the clip. | ||
| God, I would give anything for a where's Nank. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Where's Nank? | ||
|
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And then he just breaks down crying, I killed him! | |
| I killed Nank! | ||
| With a brick. | ||
|
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|
Yeah. | |
| He was trying to beat me up. | ||
| Right. | ||
| That's why I hate dogs. | ||
| Well, I put him in a coma first, but then I was like, well, we might as well put him down. | ||
| Yeah, then his bitch of a mom sued me. | ||
| God, imagine... | ||
| I said bitch there because it's a dog. | ||
| Because it's a dog, yeah. | ||
| Sorry, go ahead. | ||
| They bleeped it out. | ||
| Beep! | ||
| Just like all of those little things of like... | ||
| How is it that you have dealt with your violence as a child? | ||
| Do you not see how that is carried on from maybe not physical violence, but it's the same type of... | ||
| Aggressive emotional violence. | ||
| You're inflicting emotional violence on your audience and unwitting bystanders like these Andy Hook families, like everybody who was in Comet Ping Pong when that guy came in with a gun. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And thankfully, we'll get to it, Megyn Kelly does do a pretty decent job of... | ||
| Comet Ping Ponging? | ||
| Well, bringing all those things and making Alex responsible for them, but not really... | ||
| Not just pressing it, like getting deep into it. | ||
| Well, and not really to his face. | ||
| She does it in the NPR voiceover. | ||
| Oh, no, that's not fair. | ||
| Yeah, so here's the next clip. | ||
| Jones began developing his conspiracy theories as a teenager. | ||
| He grew up the oldest child of a dentist and a homemaker, and went to high school in Austin, Texas. | ||
| I read a lot of history books when I was a kid, and I also had family that was educated, so I just knew how things actually worked versus what the news was saying sometimes. | ||
| After a brief stint in community college, Jones found his calling at Public Access TV in Austin. | ||
| He went into business for himself, founding InfoWars in 1999. | ||
|
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|
He got a public access TV show paid for by his dad. | |
| No. | ||
| Just throw that in there. | ||
| No, no, no, no. | ||
| The first radio gig. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| His public access show he got on his own. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| No, that's something that you should throw in there. | ||
| And you know what? | ||
| I actually think that that's part of the... | ||
| overly fairness of it. | ||
| No discussion of how his dad bought him a radio show, basically. | ||
| No discussion of how he started InfoWars because he got fired from a radio station. | ||
| Right. | ||
|
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So, like, it's too fair. | |
| It's just like, no, he was enterprising, so he started InfoWars. | ||
| Well, and that fits into his narrative, though, of, like, I am a self-made man. | ||
| Yep. | ||
|
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And so you put that in there. | |
| And there's a decent chance that Megan was told that by him. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| She didn't do research into it. | ||
| She just bought it and didn't know, like, na-na-na-na-na. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Your CIA dentist dad bought you a radio show. | ||
| We all know that. | ||
| What a great question that would be. | ||
| That'd be nuts. | ||
| Do you feel like your CIA dentist dad is the only reason you're successful right now? | ||
| No, it's mostly nonk. | ||
| This is the NONC episode. | ||
| I'm Alex Jones, your host. | ||
| InfoWars makes most of its money by selling products, like male supplements. | ||
| It has just come off of me, and soon there'll be nothing left. | ||
| The main pitch man, Jones himself. | ||
| I mean, it costs $45, $50 million a year to run this. | ||
| How much money is being made? | ||
| Well, the money that's made is pretty much put back into things. | ||
| That's a fucking missed opportunity. | ||
|
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|
Yeah. | |
| That is so missed. | ||
| Like, press. | ||
| Press on it. | ||
| Don't give me vague bullshit. | ||
| Most of the money goes back. | ||
| How much? | ||
| How much are you making? | ||
| Would you say you're a profitable company? | ||
|
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|
Yeah. | |
| You don't even need to do like, oh, give me a number. | ||
| Just like, do you feel like the company itself makes money? | ||
| Do you feel like you're a financially successful business? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Because then to say no... | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Hurts his pride to say, yes, like, oh really, how much? | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| I have a buddy who I used to, he was a friend of mine back in Missouri, and one of his big things was whenever he'd meet people, he'd be like, how much money do you make? | ||
| Just to get aggressive and uncomfortable. | ||
| What a dick. | ||
| It shouldn't be that big of a deal, but it is somehow a dick move. | ||
| No, it is hilarious. | ||
| But it's the breaking of that social norm that nobody really knows. | ||
| Other than a class system. | ||
| Like, the reason that you don't talk about that is because nobody wants to admit that there's a class system in the country. | ||
| Well, yeah, and how I understood it, I don't know this to be true from personal experience, but everyone who grew up in St. Louis told me that the sort of version of that... | ||
| The way you get around that is ask people what high school they went to. | ||
| If they grew up in St. Louis. | ||
| High schools are so segregated that if you say, I went to X, Y, or Z, you know a lot about them. | ||
| You can peg them by class based on what high school they went to. | ||
| So that's sort of a polite way. | ||
| America's the best country. | ||
| We're pretty great. | ||
| So at this point, the interview skews into the controversial topics. | ||
| Jones uses that money to spread his message. | ||
| A message that has caused enormous pain. | ||
|
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|
What he has done is he has injected this sort of toxic paranoia into the mainstream of conservative thought in a way that would have been inconceivable a couple of decades ago. | |
| We're talking about somebody who traffics in some of the sickest, most offensive types of theories. | ||
| At the top of that list is Jones' outrageous statement that the slaughter of innocent children and teachers at Sandy Hook Elementary School, one of the darkest chapters in American history, was a hoax. | ||
| That kind of conservative rewriting of history drives me insane. | ||
| Like, this Sykes dude, the idea that there hasn't been a massive amount of toxic paranoia. | ||
| Built entirely around race. | ||
| Boggles my mind. | ||
| Like, rewriting that history of like, oh, Alex Jones is the first guy to peddle these toxic paranoia ideas. | ||
| Like, what are you fucking talking about? | ||
| No, but you're right. | ||
| You're totally right. | ||
| But he, I think, has a leg to stand on in terms of how much it's been amplified after Waco. | ||
| After Waco and Ruby Ridge, there was an insane amplification of it. | ||
| I mean, but... | ||
| But what are we talking- Like, fucking go back to the goddamn 90s with Super Predators. | ||
| Go back to the 80s with the crack cocaine epidemic. | ||
| Go back to the 70s with all of this. | ||
| This all comes back to race. | ||
| Right, but that's not the story they're telling. | ||
| Yeah, that's true. | ||
| You're right. | ||
| Because again, especially that fucking Sykes pile of garbage who can go fuck himself right off. | ||
| Most pundits. | ||
| Already I can read that dude's fucking backstory and I, fuck that guy. | ||
| So Alex also, before this interview, was saying that they gave me villain lighting and what have you. | ||
| And I'd just like to point out that this guy has the exact same lighting. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Well, he's also a villain, though. | ||
| It just so happens that Alex is way more jowly. | ||
| And there's a lot more. | ||
| A lot more shadows to be cast. | ||
| A lot more curves. | ||
| Give me villain lighting. | ||
| I think it made me look like I had another chin. | ||
| No, but see, and this is what I was worried about with this interview. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Is that it is an excuse to whitewash. | ||
| Somewhat, yeah. | ||
| Like, look at how bad this guy is. | ||
| Like, Megyn Kelly. | ||
| That whole, like, he's espoused that same birther idea. | ||
| Megyn Kelly, when she was on Fox News, did not do everything possible to fight against the birther thing. | ||
| Not at all. | ||
| A few years ago. | ||
| She changed her tune on that. | ||
| But when the birther shit was going on and she was on Fox News she was definitely feeding into that same bullshit. | ||
| I don't know for a fact that she ever supported it explicitly. | ||
| She didn't support it explicitly. | ||
| You're not responsible for everything that's done on the same TV network you're on. | ||
| No. | ||
| But I also... | ||
| I mean, you're totally right. | ||
| There's way more she could have done to push back. | ||
| Well, but the thing is that it wasn't... | ||
| She was part of an institution that fed that. | ||
| Well, she was... | ||
| But my point is that she was doing that same shit of people are saying Obama was not born here. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Like, she was amplifying that narrative in the same way. | ||
| She wasn't explicitly saying it. | ||
| To be fair, she just did. | ||
|
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|
Exactly! | |
| You know, she is still saying, at least she says it was fake or it's false. | ||
| But at the same time, in this report, she's saying people are saying it. | ||
| Trump and Alex Jones in particular. | ||
| And it's another excuse to pretend that this is new. | ||
| To pretend that this lunatic is the one, like, I am absolved of all of my conservative propaganda because this guy is more so. | ||
| Like, that's what I'm hearing so far with this interview. | ||
| And all of the criticism is going to come out and be like, you shouldn't give this guy a voice. | ||
| And the criticism should be, you shouldn't have a voice! | ||
| Somewhat. | ||
| It should be taken away! | ||
| I think that you should give him a voice in as much as, like we said on the pre-interview thing, the episode that we did. | ||
| Play that. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Play that screaming about Muslims. | ||
| Play that anti-Semitic caricature he does. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Play that stuff. | ||
| But they won't do any of that. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Because, again, that's not the thing that they want to deal with. | ||
| Play him rambling about... | ||
| I mean, hey, get this. | ||
| That thing about chimeras that was in the trailer isn't in the interview. | ||
| Really? | ||
| Yeah, that's not even in the interview. | ||
| Fuck you. | ||
| So all of Alex's pre-loaded work about chimeras and shit, like trying to defend himself. | ||
| Trying to explain it. | ||
| Yeah, useless. | ||
| God damn it. | ||
| That's just a teaser. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| Which does mean that there is more stuff in there. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| I want those tapes. | ||
| Right? | ||
| I want those tapes. | ||
| NBC has something that is really, really good on Alex. | ||
| Jordan? | ||
| You know what I just realized? | ||
| What? | ||
| We gotta do a national treasure. | ||
| So you're saying we gotta break into the White House? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| We gotta break into NBC. | ||
| I'm Nicolas Cage. | ||
| You're the other guy. | ||
| What the fuck? | ||
| We need a hot chick. | ||
| Can I be the hot chick? | ||
| Megyn Kelly can be the hot chick. | ||
| Alright. | ||
| We can go in. | ||
| I don't like that characterization, but fine. | ||
| She's Diane Kruger. | ||
| Right. | ||
| We go in. | ||
| We trick her. | ||
| We somehow replace the footage with another footage. | ||
| But first, I have to become the president. | ||
|
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|
I'm also seeing a 16mm can as the footage. | |
| Oh, of course. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| I think that's what we have to do in order to get to the truth. | ||
| Right. | ||
| There's something. | ||
| There's definitely something. | ||
| Otherwise, if all of it is just this, Alex wouldn't have been worried about that at all. | ||
| Of course not. | ||
| And then seeing him celebrate is very much like, we won. | ||
| We beat them. | ||
| Thank God. | ||
| They edited it all, and we can deal with all of it. | ||
| Yeah, and I mean, all TV shows edit stuff. | ||
| That's not unreasonable. | ||
| But the points that they end up making and the angle of attack of the piece, and I don't mean attack in terms of like, it's an attack. | ||
| I mean the angle of attack. | ||
| Just the angle they take on it. | ||
| Your strategy. | ||
| In the same way that when I write a joke, I'm taking an angle on an idea, not... | ||
|
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|
Not trying to fight it. | |
| The approach they take is intrinsically flawed and speaks to either an unwillingness or an inability to understand the psychology of how to counter propaganda and how to counter Alex specifically. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But they do get more into Sandy Hook. | ||
| Who would have guessed? | ||
|
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|
I buried my son. | |
| I held my son with a bullet hole through his head. | ||
| Neil Heslin's son Jesse, just six years old, was murdered. | ||
| Along with 19 of his classmates and six adults on December 14, 2012, in Newtown, Connecticut. | ||
|
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|
I dropped him off in 904. | |
| That's when we dropped him off at school with his book bag. | ||
| Hours later, I was picking him up in a body bag. | ||
| Alex Jones repeatedly claimed that the shooting never happened. | ||
| Here he is on Infowars in December 2014. | ||
| But it took me about a year with Sandy Hook to come to grips with the fact that the whole thing was fake. | ||
| You said, the whole thing is a giant hoax. | ||
| How do you deal with a total hoax? | ||
| It took me about a year with Sandy Hook to come to grips with the fact that the whole thing was fake. | ||
| I did deep research and my gosh, it just pretty much didn't happen. | ||
| At that point, and I do think there's some cover-up and some manipulation, that is pretty much what I believe. | ||
| But then I was also going into Devil's Advocate, but then we know there's mass shootings and these things happen. | ||
| But you're trying to have it always, right? | ||
| No, I'm not. | ||
| If you wrongly went out there and said it was a hoax, that's wrong. | ||
| But what I already answered your question was, listeners and other people are covering this. | ||
| I didn't create that story. | ||
|
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|
But Alex, the parents, one after the other. | |
| Devastated. | ||
| The dead bodies that the coroner autopsied. | ||
| And they blocked all that and they won't release any of it? | ||
| That's unprecedented? | ||
| All of the parents decided to come out and lie about their dead children? | ||
| I didn't say that. | ||
| What happened to the children? | ||
| I will sit there on the air and look at every position and play devil's advocate. | ||
| Was that devil's advocate? | ||
| The whole thing is a giant hoax. | ||
| The whole thing was fake. | ||
| Now there's a bit of a pause here. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And this is when you lay the haymaker. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Because Alex is really scrambling. | ||
|
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|
Of course. | |
| You can see the calculations going on in his head. | ||
| Right. | ||
| He's sitting there and he's like... | ||
| What's my spin on this? | ||
| I already just said that that was basically what I believed. | ||
| But I'm trying to obfuscate and say that I play devil's advocate about stuff. | ||
| And so the direct question, you saying it's fake, is that you playing devil's advocate? | ||
| Now keep in mind, you've already said in this interview that that's basically what I believe. | ||
| And you can see him like, fuck, how do I get out of this? | ||
| How do I get out of this? | ||
| And his response is weak. | ||
| He's weak as fuck. | ||
| And I don't know. | ||
| I'm not saying that Megyn Kelly didn't do something. | ||
| I think right now, just the playing of that clip, which is what we didn't think she was going to do. | ||
| But you didn't play it for him. | ||
| Oh, she didn't play it for him? | ||
| No, that was just in the broadcast. | ||
| She read the quote to him, which is less impactful to him having to see himself say those things, but still good. | ||
| It is still good. | ||
| It's not the same clip that we use, because the one we use is a little bit more really explicit, but it is the same sentiment. | ||
| And it even is, it took me a year to come to grips with it. | ||
| Yeah, that one is good. | ||
| The point is, he's realizing I'm caught kind of in a trap here, or I'm caught in a lie, like just a direct lie. | ||
| And maybe Megan had a good rebuttal to this, but his answer is just like, you shouldn't let him do this on television. | ||
| Yes, because I remember in, even that day, I'll go back from memory, then saying, but then some of it looks like it's real, but then what do you do when they've got the kids going in circles in and out of the building with their hands up? | ||
| I've watched the footage, and it looks like a drill. | ||
| When you say parents faked their children's death, people get very angry. | ||
| Oh, I know, but they don't get angry about the half million dead Iraqis from the sanctions, or they don't get angry about all the illegals pouring in. | ||
| No, no, it's not a dodge. | ||
| The media never covers all the evil wars it's promoted. | ||
| That doesn't excuse what you did and said about Newtown. | ||
| You know it. | ||
| Here's the difference. | ||
| Here's the difference. | ||
| I looked at all the angles of Newtown. | ||
| And I made my statements long before the media even picked up on it. | ||
| In our interview, we asked Jones numerous times what he now believes, and he never completely disavowed his previous statements. | ||
| I tend to believe that children probably did die there, but then you look at all the other evidence on the other side, I can see how other people believe that nobody died there. | ||
| Of course, there is no evidence on the other side. | ||
| And that's fair, but you're doing that in voiceover. | ||
|
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|
Exactly. | |
| But at the same time, I do empathize with her because an interview with Alex would be exhausting. | ||
| And there is pretty good indications there that she was trying to get to the point and he was just dancing around. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| The thing is, with that kind of an interview, is how do you force him into a corner? | ||
| Well, she kind of did there, but she also let him get out of the corner. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| It's very difficult. | ||
| And I think that the approach that she thought would work is appealing to human decency. | ||
| Which is insane. | ||
| As we've already discussed, that's not going to be a good approach. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Well, and that's, again, he lives inside of a world that they can't conceive of. | ||
| He is a complete psychopath. | ||
| So he doesn't... | ||
| He hangs out with Mike Cernovich. | ||
| Yeah! | ||
| He thinks he's cool. | ||
| Yeah, he doesn't care if you take a human decency track towards him. | ||
| He's just going to go back to... | ||
| And it's not... | ||
| Like, his response to it isn't... | ||
| Isn't her... | ||
| It's not terrible. | ||
| Like, this is a relatively small-scale event. | ||
| Like, just the... | ||
| Zandy Hook? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| The response to that is, well, there are half a million dead Iraqis. | ||
|
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|
Okay. | |
| So his response is, like, mathematically, I'm not that bad. | ||
| Like, that's his response. | ||
| Well, compared to someone who denies the death of those half a million Iraqis. | ||
|
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|
Right. | |
| Or somebody who justifies the war in Iraq. | ||
| Right, but he's not even talking about the war in Iraq. | ||
| He was talking about sanctions. | ||
| I absolutely agree with you, but I'm just saying that his argument is math. | ||
| But bullshit, because in order to make an analog that works there, you'd have to have a conspiracy theorist who, number one, denies the sanctions about Iraq, and number two, denies that the half million people who died are real. | ||
| Then he could say, I'm better than that guy. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| He can't say, like, no one's accusing him of killing kids at Sandy Hook. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So when he says that no one's mad about the half million dead Iraqis, people are. | ||
| People are mad about that. | ||
| People are not happy about that. | ||
| You're pitching yourself in the wrong part of the equation. | ||
| Yeah, I agree with you. | ||
| It's nonsense. | ||
| I agree with you. | ||
| I retract my earlier statement that it wasn't terrible. | ||
| Because it was terrible. | ||
| But it does sound okay at first glance. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So the next approach he sort of... | ||
| But it's that same moving the goalpost, though. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It's the, what about this? | ||
| It's what he does. | ||
| He's slippery. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So the next approach he tries to get into for the piece is to discuss sort of like the consequences and make real the consequences of Sandy Hook denial. | ||
| After President Trump took office, the Newtown Board of Education wrote to him, imploring the president to try to stop Jones and other hoaxers like him. | ||
| Saying Jones continues to spread hate and lies towards our town. | ||
| Almost four months later, according to the board chairman, the president has yet to respond. | ||
| The lies about Sandy Hook have had real-world consequences. | ||
| Just this month, a Florida woman was sentenced to five months in prison for sending death threats to a Sandy Hook parent. | ||
| Her defense attorney says she was primarily motivated by InfoWars. | ||
| Other victims' family members have been harassed or threatened, too. | ||
| The families say that Jones' words have caused lasting pain, and they fear the harassment will continue. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You know, it's disrespectful to me, or in fact, I did lose my son, and the 26 other families lost somebody, and I take that very personal. | |
| You know this piece is going to air on Father's Day. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Correct. | |
| What is your message to him? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I think he's blessed to have his children. | |
| To spend the day with? | ||
| To speak to? | ||
| I don't have that. | ||
| And that's heartbreaking. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Wow. | |
| That's very heartbreaking and decent journalism. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| But in terms of Alex, it's really easy to just deny that, too. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And the people who follow him and are Sandy Hook deniers, that's not going to make a dent in them because he's an actor. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| He's on the fake news. | ||
| This is fake news. | ||
| He's an actor. | ||
| They're trying to humanize this fake event that they pulled with a bunch of actors, and why should I care about this guy lying on Megyn Kelly's show? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Which is unfortunate, because if you... | ||
| God, that's just brutal to listen to. | ||
| Because if you live in the real world, it is brutal. | ||
| It's fucking... | ||
| God damn it. | ||
| How... | ||
| I mean, I guess if you want to call him an actor, but that's fucking... | ||
| That's saying that he's... | ||
| That's so cynical. | ||
|
unidentified
|
How can you listen to that and not feel anything? | |
| I don't know. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| Like, that's fucking heartbreaking. | ||
| Yep. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mm-hmm. | |
| And even the response being not, fuck you. | ||
| The response being, you should be glad that you have your kids. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Because I don't. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It's very human. | ||
| That's such an empathetic response, too. | ||
| It's the response of someone who went through a trauma and then dealt with it. | ||
| And now, unfortunately, is on the other side of it. | ||
| Not unfortunately is on the other side of it. | ||
| It's good that he's on the other side of the trauma. | ||
| I mean, unfortunate that there has to be another side to begin with. | ||
| That's certainly true. | ||
| But I think if we can take a step back, and not dehumanize, but take a little bit of the emotional... | ||
| I think that it's, again, it's a good approach, and I see the perspective that she's trying to build. | ||
| She's built at the beginning this connection with Donald Trump. | ||
| She's connected a bit of the, like, you reported on Manchester and you had no information about it. | ||
| There was that sort of bedrock, and now she's gotten to Sandy Hook. | ||
| She's caught him a little bit in a, you aren't really being clear about what you were reporting. | ||
| And she's connected that to Trump himself. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| They sent Trump a letter saying, hey, you have the power to help us out here. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And Trump has done fuck all. | ||
| Yeah, he's done nothing. | ||
| Or not even to make a statement. | ||
| Not even responded. | ||
| And the consequences here will be the next through line. | ||
| And I think... | ||
| I think on one level it is a good approach. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But only to rational viewers. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Rational viewers will see like, oh shit, these are the consequences. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Of his... | ||
| His actions and his lies that he puts out, that these families are being re-victimized and re-traumatized by strangers who publish their phone numbers and email addresses online. | ||
| They dox these fucking families. | ||
| And so she uses that and she transitions into other conspiracies and other instances of Alex's nonsense. | ||
| The consequences of Jones's actions are not limited to Sandy Hook. | ||
| Pizzagate, as it's called. | ||
| In 2016, Jones promoted a conspiracy theory known as Pizzagate. | ||
| Infowars claimed a child's sex ring was being run by Democrats out of a number of businesses and specifically pointed to a Washington, D.C. pizzeria. | ||
| You've got to go to Infowars.com and actually see the photos and videos inside these places. | ||
| Jones encouraged his listeners to investigate the case themselves. | ||
| And one did, bringing a semi-automatic rifle to the shop and firing several rounds. | ||
| No one was hurt, and the shooter was arrested. | ||
| The pizza shop owner wrote a letter asking Jones to apologize. | ||
| Facing the possibility of a lawsuit, he did. | ||
| We regret any negative impact our commentaries may have had on Mr. Alifana's Comic Ping Pong or its employees. | ||
| So that's good. | ||
| I mean, that's good. | ||
| She's not asking him about it, though. | ||
| There's no interview chunk about it. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Which, I don't know, maybe. | ||
| There isn't? | ||
| She just reports that and then they never talk to him about it? | ||
| No. | ||
| And that might be because he wouldn't answer questions. | ||
| It might be because there's legal ramifications or something like that. | ||
| Right. | ||
| There might be a thing where he doesn't want to get re-sued or whatever. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Because Double Jeopardy is only in criminal trials, not in civil trials. | ||
| I kind of get it, and it is fair. | ||
| It's okay for the news piece to, like, you've established with Sandy Hook these consequences. | ||
| You're linking a direct consequence. | ||
| The guy's showing up with a gun. | ||
| To Alex, which is fair. | ||
| That is what the gunman said. | ||
| And then him having to apologize. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Which, if you're watching that, then you draw the correct conclusion of this guy is doing a lot of damage. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| He's not just a conspiracy theorist. | ||
| He's not just a liar. | ||
| When you get into the real world, this guy is a threat. | ||
| He's a real threat to real people. | ||
| Well, he is in as much as, you know, unstable people who listen to him are. | ||
| Right. | ||
| That's the real threat. | ||
| The real threat is that he ruins people's lives. | ||
| So she takes that, and that's good, and she links it to another instance. | ||
| Another apology came just this spring. | ||
| Chobani Yogurt sued Jones after InfoWars fanned the lie that Chobani employees committed a sexual assault in Idaho. | ||
| On behalf of InfoWars, I regret that we mischaracterized Chobani. | ||
| You misstated facts about Chobani and its owner, which you could have found out if you just had a reporter doing a shoe leather report. | ||
| You lied! | ||
| Check out the facts. | ||
| You liar! | ||
| Hold on, I want to pause a bit. | ||
| Yeah, sorry. | ||
| You're right. | ||
| He was lying, but... | ||
| What Megan said there was really good. | ||
| She's like, you could have just had a reporter look into this, and then you wouldn't have had to apologize. | ||
| You could have had anyone do journalistic work, you would have found out that this isn't true, and then you would be fine. | ||
| Why didn't you do that? | ||
| So that's a good question. | ||
| This is my statement on that. | ||
| We know that that was basically a PR event. | ||
| And what happens is you've got a year of reporting on the reported sexual assault. | ||
| All of which has nothing to do with Jobani. | ||
| Yeah, I know you're not going to let me get it out, are you? | ||
| I'm going to let you get it out. | ||
| I just want to make sure the record's straight because I don't want to smear the man. | ||
| You are the one who said that you were wrong about Chobani. | ||
| You said that. | ||
| Well, that's because they chose to go after me, and so I simply pointed out that we were reporting other people's reports that were not entirely accurate, and for that we were sorry, because it was true. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You don't sound very sorry. | |
| A psychopath. | ||
| Now, the media said stuff about the settlement that wasn't true. | ||
| You said things about Chobani and its owner that were not true. | ||
| Are you sorry? | ||
| I'm going to tell you again. | ||
| The media really was upset that they said that there was a hoax. | ||
| It's not the media. | ||
| You. | ||
| Are you sorry? | ||
| And so what they did, so what the media did, and we know it was the media, and we have the PIs and the law firms, and we're working on it right now. | ||
| Let's just say Chobani was real happy to get out of that lawsuit. | ||
| But the lawsuit makes clear Infowars was the only media outlet to report the lie that forced Jones to apologize. | ||
| And with that apology, Chobani considers the matter closed. | ||
| This is such bullshit nonsense from Alex. | ||
| The idea that Chobani is glad to be out of the lawsuit. | ||
| They started the lawsuit. | ||
| They got what they wanted out of it. | ||
| They wanted an apology. | ||
| So in that way, they are glad to be out of the lawsuit. | ||
| Sure, yeah. | ||
| Because that means that they don't have to spend money on... | ||
| Lawyers and all of that shit. | ||
| Or not money, just time, energy, all of that shit. | ||
| And just to break it down, I mean, we went over it in the April 25th episode of the show where we dealt with the Chobani lawsuit. | ||
| The issue is that there were lies that were being reported on like Breitbart and World Net Daily. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And they were really salacious, scandalous stories about these child sexual assaults. | ||
| Child on child sexual assaults. | ||
| They weren't reporting what Alex was reporting and what David Knight was reporting. | ||
| That was straight up... | ||
| These immigrant rapists are being imported by Chobani. | ||
| Right. | ||
| That's why Alex got in trouble. | ||
| Whatever Breitbart was reporting, whatever all these other places were reporting, was wrong. | ||
| It was a lie. | ||
| It was scandalous, salacious. | ||
| But... | ||
| It didn't say Chobani... | ||
| Force these children into rape, basically. | ||
| It didn't say that Hamdi Ulukaya specifically did those things. | ||
| That's why he was in their crosshairs, because he fucking lied. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And Megyn Kelly would love for it to just be, he didn't do the journalistic work. | ||
| He's never going to do the journalistic work. | ||
| He's never done journalistic work. | ||
| That's not even in the conversation. | ||
| Yeah, that's a good point. | ||
| You could have sent a reporter. | ||
| Listen, Megan, I've never sent a reporter goddamn anywhere. | ||
| Megan, what's a reporter? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Which actually weaves nicely into this next clip, where Megan brings up the question, do you think you're a journalist? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Ooh. | |
| Which is a fair question to ask. | ||
| I bet the answer is 100% yes. | ||
| Do you think of yourself as a journalist? | ||
| I have some journalists that work for me, and I do journalistic work, and I've broken a lot of big stories, and I understand the basics of it. | ||
| I need to find the Lion of London thing. | ||
| In the Infowars studio, there's no script. | ||
| Instead, it's a freewheeling spin through piles of articles straight off the Internet. | ||
| 95% of what we cover is looking at a news article and then discussing it. | ||
| Well, you know, if you just look at an article and discuss it, it's garbage in, garbage out, right? | ||
| If you haven't... | ||
| I mean, we all get mainstream media has got a big problem. | ||
| You just let that go? | ||
| Yeah, she just lets that go. | ||
| That was it. | ||
| Well, we all get that Hillary was 15 points ahead is a legitimate answer to the question she just had. | ||
| Well, and Alex's entire narrative is, like, whenever someone attacks his credibility or whatever, he's like, the mainstream media is always wrong. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Hillary's poll numbers, blah, blah, blah. | ||
| And to allow him, unquestioned, to just repeat that. | ||
| Is such a bad follow-up to a great point that she made. | ||
| It was really good. | ||
| Garbage in, garbage out. | ||
| Such a good point. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Perfect. | |
| If you don't have any idea if this is a legit article, discussing it for two hours is nothing. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And if your response to that is, well, we all know Hillary was 15 points ahead, is there, after this clip, is there, like, any follow-up question to that? | ||
| No. | ||
| No, none at all. | ||
| Well, not in the, maybe in the unedited. | ||
| That's possible. | ||
| But then again... | ||
| In the unedited, he's like, I'm lying about everything! | ||
| I did it! | ||
| You can't catch me! | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm the liar of all liars! | |
| I mean, I think, if I were to go into the heads of Megyn Kelly and her producers... | ||
| I would guess that what they thought is that that looks so silly on its face that it's fine to leave in as a crazy answer. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| But what they don't recognize is there's at least 30% of the population that kind of do believe that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Of course. | |
| That the mainstream media was intentionally lying about this. | ||
| Right. | ||
| As opposed to... | ||
| And not just that, but that Megyn Kelly has betrayed them. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So she's already off the books anyway. | ||
| She's not realizing that that actually is kind of like a... | ||
| A good punch back. | ||
| Right. | ||
| To some people. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| Now, we're coming to the end here. | ||
| There's one more clip. | ||
| And we get a little guest appearance by number one ding-dong, Owen Troyer. | ||
| Oh, goddammit. | ||
| How did they get him roped into this? | ||
| He says something pretty bad. | ||
| And, I mean, if I were making this piece, I would say, I would take that clip and run the fuck with it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, yeah? | |
| Because it's like, oh, you're a propagandist. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| He essentially just lets out that we're a wing of the Trump campaign. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Which I really think is a large piece of what this profile is about, but just without spelling it out, without being like, you guys are fucking shills. | ||
| Also, in the unedited interview, Megan kind of gives him an elbow and is like, how's Rob do his wife? | ||
| Is she still sore? | ||
| You guys like the super male vitality? | ||
| Now, Owen... | ||
| You're great. | ||
| I really loved your racist Muslim impression the other day. | ||
| It's great journalism. | ||
| It's nonsense. | ||
| We all know Hillary is 15 points ahead. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| The Infowars staffers we met have free reign to cover whatever they like with virtually no oversight. | ||
| Like journalists. | ||
| We spoke with some of Jones' employees, including Owen Schroyer. | ||
| How do you, on a day-to-day basis, figure out what you're going to do? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I wake up. | |
| I look at the news. | ||
| Throw dark to the wall. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I rarely get directives from Alex or my boss. | |
| They pretty much just leave it up to me. | ||
| Is that what you consider yourself to be, a journalist? | ||
|
unidentified
|
You know, I don't like calling it that. | |
| I'm just a human. | ||
| I'm just a human that's looking for truth. | ||
| So I'm trying to reach out and be what the people want. | ||
| When you say people, who do you mean? | ||
| The deplorables. | ||
|
unidentified
|
The flyover country. | |
| The forgotten American. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We're going to get to work immediately for the American people. | |
| With the election of Donald Trump, Alex Jones has plans to expand Infowars. | ||
| More studios, more shows, more employees, more influence. | ||
| I said the night he won, I said the war has just begun. | ||
| So we've just got a beachhead, and so that's just the start of the war for me. | ||
| And Alex Jones goes into battle with a powerful ally. | ||
| Just two weeks ago, the Trump-Pence campaign emailed this message to supporters. | ||
| Notice at the bottom, it's a link to InfoWars. | ||
| So that's the end of the piece, and quite frankly, that is the equivalent of a puff piece. | ||
| That's the end of that piece. | ||
| That's the end of it. | ||
| That's the 17 minutes. | ||
| For real? | ||
| Yep. | ||
| That is all implication. | ||
| What do you mean? | ||
| That is all, like, you guys choose. | ||
| We're giving you... | ||
| Like, if you're rational, you look at that and you see that last thing that she said is, oh, that means Alex is dangerous. | ||
| The beginning, that means Alex is dangerous. | ||
| All of that stuff. | ||
| All of that stuff is built around the idea of giving you the impression of something and at no point in time making a goddamn point. | ||
| Nope. | ||
| That was it. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| That was the whole fucking thing. | ||
| I'm even angrier than I thought I was going to be. | ||
| Yeah, you know why? | ||
| Because there's those glimmers. | ||
| There's those couple of moments that are like, Alex is trapped. | ||
| Oh, this is going to be great. | ||
| They never drop the hammer. | ||
| Which means that there's something in the tapes that is real. | ||
| Something there that they... | ||
| I beg you, NBC and Megyn Kelly, give me the tapes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, man. | |
| Let me watch the tapes. | ||
| I will find what Alex is afraid of. | ||
| Right. | ||
| I guarantee I can find it. | ||
| I know his head. | ||
| Unfortunately. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I am your savant, NBC. | |
| This is as disappointing as we kind of expected it to be. | ||
| It's too bad that I'm going to have to be up all night editing this. | ||
| I actually kind of expected it to go the other direction. | ||
| What do you mean? | ||
| And this, like you said... | ||
| For Alex, that is a puff piece. | ||
| You would think for, you know, and to them, they think that's really damning. | ||
| Like, they think they did it. | ||
| They think they did a good job on that. | ||
| They think that they're covering this in a way that no one else is. | ||
| And maybe that's true, because a lot of people aren't covering him. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And the people who aren't doing a great job of it. | ||
| I would agree with that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Again, who gives a fuck about the shift shit? | |
| He was drunk! | ||
| And he was talking about the five ways to learn! | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| We have a way more interesting interview. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| There's all kinds of stuff that you could get into. | ||
| And not just that. | ||
| And I think that's the thing that really pisses me off about that. | ||
| Is because the real trick to getting Alex into a corner... | ||
| Is talking about what he wants to talk about. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Because he will fucking go on and he will damn himself. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Totally. | |
| If you just got into, like... | ||
| Globalists. | ||
| Well, not just globalists. | ||
| Demons. | ||
| Just get into Muslims. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| Like that first thing on the Manchester bombing. | ||
| Just go into, not what you said about the victims, but what do you believe about who did it? | ||
| Do you think that's all of Islam? | ||
| And he'd be like, well, let me tell you about all of Islam. | ||
| And he would go bananas on you. | ||
| And that's all you would need to show. | ||
| All the stuff that they did was the same thing that people on Twitter are doing. | ||
| The same thing that Media Matters is doing. | ||
| Which is going like, hey, you need to talk about this. | ||
| And if you just let Alex talk... | ||
| He is going to destroy himself. | ||
| As we sort of documented in part one of this. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| Alex's worst enemy is not you, not what you think about Sandy Hook, not anything like that. | ||
| Alex's worst enemy is himself. | ||
| If they'd shown an interview Alex did with him, it would be perfect. | ||
| Yeah, I think that that's why we kind of thought... | ||
| That it would be worse than it was, too. | ||
| Or at least I did. | ||
| Because I know that he has very little self-control when he's baited. | ||
| And it would be pretty easy to bait him. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| I think you should bring up Muslims. | ||
| I think you should bring up globalists and try and just be like, if you ask him direct questions about his globalist ideology, he wouldn't be able to answer it, probably. | ||
| No. | ||
| He would just be like, well, there's a satanic force that's on it. | ||
| Wait, hold on. | ||
| Tell me about that. | ||
| Right. | ||
| What do you mean by that? | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And then he'd go off. | ||
| Please, tell me more. | ||
| He'd go off. | ||
| Yeah, and you'd get to a point where you'd get to the end of the road. | ||
| It would just be vapor. | ||
| There'd be nothing to stand on. | ||
| It'd be like, oh, you don't actually have a real concrete position here. | ||
| You'd start screaming about Rothschilds and nonsense, and then if you do your research, you can be like, well, I mean, the Rothschilds, that's not real. | ||
| It's not a real thing anymore. | ||
| I don't want to give us any kind of credit that we don't necessarily deserve, but how do you do that interview? | ||
| You give him rope. | ||
| You let him talk about his globalist ideology. | ||
| You let him talk about how he feels about Muslims. | ||
| You let him talk about masculinity. | ||
| And then all you do is instead of your voiceover being like, here's this, you just point out it's not true. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| That's basically what we do. | ||
| We turn him into a joke. | ||
| We let him talk. | ||
| If you let him talk, he's done! | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And that's what we hope for. | ||
| And again, I think that's a big fear that he has, is people will actually start listening. | ||
| And to some extent, it's the same fear I have. | ||
| I'm kind of scared of InfoWarriors starting to listen to our show because I don't want to deal with it. | ||
| I don't want to deal with them yelling at me about bullshit that I can disprove, but I don't want to take up the time. | ||
| I'm sure he has the same fear, but in reverse. | ||
| Direct questioning about these things that he's vaguely talked about for years and years would be disastrous for him. | ||
| I just don't... | ||
| I'm disappointed because of opportunity lost. | ||
| Because now Alex is never going to do this again. | ||
| I think you're absolutely right. | ||
| And you know what? | ||
| He might do it again. | ||
| No. | ||
| Because what he got was exactly what he wanted. | ||
| Yeah, but based on all of the last week's lead-up, he was so scared. | ||
| Right. | ||
| I don't think he'd put himself through that week again. | ||
| That's possible. | ||
| And if he did, I mean, if he ever learns any lessons, it would be... | ||
| Alright, I'm going to be much more careful about what I say. | ||
| Or whatever. | ||
| Because whatever fear was driving him to do that preemptive damage control. | ||
| He can't do that. | ||
| He can't be careful about what he's going to say. | ||
| It's true. | ||
| All she did was put him into the public consciousness for a day. | ||
| And that's it. | ||
| There's nothing there. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And, I mean, the end result of this is Alex Jones has propaganda to play with now. | ||
| I mean, he can spin this pretty well. | ||
| Easily. | ||
| And there are... | ||
| I mean, the fear that people had about... | ||
| I mean, the complaints that people were making before that you're giving them a platform, you absolutely are. | ||
| I think they're 100% justified now. | ||
| She makes good points about the consequences of his rhetoric, but it's not... | ||
| That's not enough. | ||
| That's not enough to necessarily make the dent that you need to make to justify this piece. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| No. | ||
| You have platformed him, you've made him mainstream, and you've allowed him to lie on television. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yep. | |
| And that sucks. | ||
| And all you've done is make him sexier, too. | ||
| Somewhat. | ||
| Because look at the powerful man. | ||
| Look at this powerful man. | ||
| He's connected to Trump. | ||
| He's got millions of listeners. | ||
| Millions of dollars. | ||
| He's super rich. | ||
| He's self-made. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| All of this stuff is... | ||
| A lot of it builds into his own ethos. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And whereas we hoped that you could be able to pierce the facade, all it's done is reinforce it. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| God! | ||
| Fucking damn it. | ||
| Yeah, what a bummer. | ||
| That is such a pathetic excuse for, now I want Megyn Kelly's career over! | ||
| Sure, now we're on it. | ||
| I'm on Alex's side now. | ||
| Now, Alex, release the tapes. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| Release those tapes, bitch! | ||
| God, those tapes would be the most damning thing. | ||
| I have to be. | ||
| So, this interview coming on the heels of us possibly losing an episode. | ||
| Makes me wish I was dead. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| By one person who's not dead. | ||
| Who's not dead? | ||
| This one guy. | ||
| This guy named JP. | ||
| He's an old friend of mine. | ||
| JR? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oops. | |
| Are you saying that Rappaport still lives? | ||
| I am. | ||
| Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. | ||
| Thanks for holding. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Alex. | |
| I'm a first-time caller. | ||
| I'm a huge fan. | ||
| I love your work. |
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