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March 19, 2026 - The Joe Rogan Experience
02:22:24
Joe Rogan Experience #2470 - Pierre Poilievre

Pierre Poilievre details his wrestling-to-politics journey, critiques Trudeau's economic damage, and proposes a "pay-go" law to curb bureaucracy while defending oil sands and restricting immigration. He debates assisted suicide limits citing Viktor Frankl, contrasts Canada's peaceful diversity with European violence, and demands tougher bail laws against repeat offenders. The conversation covers opioid crisis outrage, Ibogaine for addiction, and MMA history from Bruce Lee to Ilia Topuria, ultimately championing individual liberty over government control and humility in leadership. [Automatically generated summary]

Participants
Main
j
joe rogan
57:08
p
pierre poilievre
can 01:08:22
Appearances
j
jamie vernon
00:42
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Speaker Time Text
Accidental Exercise Equipment 00:06:02
unidentified
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!
The Joe Rogan experience.
Train by day, Joe Rogan, podcast by night, all day!
joe rogan
How are you, sir?
Pleasure to meet you.
pierre poilievre
It's great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Great to be back in Texas.
joe rogan
I'm glad we finally did this.
pierre poilievre
Yes, me too.
joe rogan
I wanted to do it the first go-around.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, I know.
Well, when I got the invitation, we were in the middle of the election, and we just don't leave the country during election campaigns.
unidentified
I get it.
pierre poilievre
And the problem we've had is we can't get you to come to Canada.
And so we've actually hatched a full strategy to get you into Canada because we think it's going to do big things for our tourism numbers.
So do you mind if I present you with something right out of the gate?
unidentified
Sure.
pierre poilievre
All right.
This is from a gunsmith and machinist in Calgary, Alberta.
His name is Jay.
And he's designed to get a kettlebell.
Guess what the weight is?
joe rogan
70 pounds.
pierre poilievre
70 pounds.
That's the weight you have.
And it says on the front here, Jamie, it says here on the front, Jamie, pull it up.
We've got, you see here, some other stuff for a stand.
joe rogan
Oh, that's really cool.
pierre poilievre
Look at this stand here.
So we've got seeing is believing, which I think was the slogan of the first UFC that you were the commentator for.
I think it was number 13?
joe rogan
12.
pierre poilievre
Number 12.
And then we've got here your favorite quote from what's his name?
The Japanese martial arts.
unidentified
Yes.
pierre poilievre
And it says, if you know the way broadly, you will see it in everything.
So that's here.
And then Morris Code, there's a thank you letter for you.
And we've got your flying saucer.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
pierre poilievre
And we've got your logo here, too.
So, but most important of all, we've got a subliminal message, which is the Canadian maple leaf.
unidentified
Oh, cool.
pierre poilievre
Every time you do a kettlebell swing, you do a snatch, you do a clean, you're going to be seeing that maple leaf, and you're going to be reminding yourself that you need to come back to Canada.
unidentified
All right.
pierre poilievre
Present that to you there.
joe rogan
Thank you very much.
Very cool.
Is that in the way, Jamie?
unidentified
I can take it off.
pierre poilievre
Well, take it off.
joe rogan
I'll just be there.
pierre poilievre
So I saw your interview with Pavel, and I'm a big kettlebell freak.
joe rogan
Are you really?
pierre poilievre
Yeah, absolutely.
And I started researching him after you had him on.
And I was trying to, I love history.
So I was thinking, why did the Russians come up with this?
And it turns out they used it as a counterweight at the farmer markets.
So they would say, you know, you come in, you have to say, this is how much potatoes you're buying.
But instead of trying to do it by eyeball, they would put what is now kettlebell on one side of the scale and then the produce on the other.
And then at the farmers' expeditions, you had these big Russian farmers who want to show how strong they were.
So they would pick them up and do all kinds of displays with them.
And then the Russian army took it on.
The Soviet army took it on.
And then that's where Pavel picked it up and then brought it over the Atlantic and introduced it to America.
joe rogan
Wow, that's crazy.
So it was just accidental that they made this very functional tool for fitness?
pierre poilievre
Yeah, it was just, you'd go to a farmer's market, you want to buy some barley or some potatoes, but you don't know if you're actually getting the real weight.
So they'd have a scale, a balancing scale, and they'd put the kettlebell on one side and the produce on the other.
And then you knew you got the right amount.
And then, of course, they have these big farmers at farm fairs, and they're showing off their horses and their cattle and stuff, and they'd want to do strength displays.
So these farmers are throwing these things around.
And the Russian military picked it up.
And then the Soviets, of course, took over and they took it on.
And then Pavel, I think he was a Belarusian, though, if I'm not mistaken.
Pavel.
unidentified
Cecil.
pierre poilievre
And he brought it over to North America.
But the ancient Chinese did it as well.
Really?
Yeah, the ancient Chinese, the Shaolin monks have used them, but they didn't do it with cast iron.
Theirs were sort of a concrete, a concrete block, and they did it for strength training as well.
joe rogan
Oh, wow.
A little history.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, so I'm a big kettlebell freak.
I love it.
And I really started to study what Pavel's teaching.
I think he has an accreditation or something.
If I ever get time, I might take it.
joe rogan
Yeah, strong first.
Yeah, that's his organization.
pierre poilievre
And you have a whole program.
I think you do.
Clean, depress and then yeah, I do a bunch of different things, squats with overhead, squat and all that.
joe rogan
It's a great functional tool just for your whole body, right?
You know, it's really one of the best pieces of exercise equipment I think i've ever found.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, I think he calls it a, a cannonball on a handle, um and uh.
The thing I like about it is the.
It's like a catapult catap catapult, like it.
All of the lift is in that, that instant where it flips over your hand.
And uh, the original ones.
joe rogan
Wow, that's crazy, that's so interesting.
So the handle was just to pick it up and carry it around.
pierre poilievre
Yeah wow, that had a real functional use.
joe rogan
Well, it's just amazing how good it is for a piece of exercise equipment that was accidentally designed that way, absolutely.
pierre poilievre
And uh, I think it's far superior to uh, to a dumbbell exercise, because there's no uh, a dumbbell.
You got a, you get a consistent lift.
But that's not real life.
If you're in a fight or you have to pick something up heavy, it doesn't lift consistently, it's it's explosive in that small range and what you know, when you're doing a snatch, by the time you get up to your shoulder, the thing's weightless because the catapult.
The catapult effect has taken over and now it's actually negative ways, lifting your hand up in the air if you're doing it right, but like if you're in a fight or if you're in a wrestling match or you're you're trying to push really hard against a heavy object.
It's all about explosive power and that's what kettlebells give, rather than just this sort of uh, freeze and contract thing that you do with with dumbbells.
joe rogan
Have you always been a workout guy?
Politics and Tendinitis 00:04:14
pierre poilievre
Yeah, look I.
I was um big into sports.
Until my mid-teens I was on the wrestling team.
I wasn't great.
I was good, but I wasn't great.
Um, then I got a wicked uh tendonitis in my shoulder and it ended my athleticism for like four years and that's how I got into politics.
I was so bored I got to get home from school.
I had nothing to do, so I took my, told my mother, tendin' tendinitis got you into politics.
Yeah, that's what it was.
I just couldn't get rid of it, like I every time I thought I had it beat, i'd go in and i'd train and it would be full of inflammation.
No one could do anything about it, and so I was like bored out of my mind and I said to my mom.
Like you know, you go to these local meetings with the Conservative Association.
Like, take me to that because i'm going crazy and that's nuts yeah, so that.
joe rogan
So what, what?
What were you interested in when you first went there?
Like, we just didn't like the way things were running, like what, what was it about it that got you so curious?
pierre poilievre
Well, I grew up in a suburban neighborhood in south south end of Calgary, you know, and my folks were teachers.
I was adopted.
My mom was a 16 year old on she she was obviously a single mom.
She put me up for adoption, and two school teachers there was.
Electricians and oil workers and police officers lived on our street normal hardworking, good folks, and I always grew up with the impression they were getting screwed over and that um, the government didn't listen to people like them, didn't listen to people who grew up on streets like ours and living in western Canada.
There was a greater sense of that.
We called it western alienation at the time.
And there was this guy kind of a quirky guy but a really brilliant guy named Preston Manning, and I saw this billboard of him and he had his fist up and it said enough.
And I said, yeah, I like that guy.
So I got involved in politics.
I started reading about different things.
I read a biography on Fidel Castro, and then I read Justin's dad.
No, no, not Justin's dad.
No, His dad was Pierre.
His dad was Pierre.
His dad was Pierre.
I had issues with Pierre Trudeau, too.
joe rogan
It is a great conspiracy theory, though.
pierre poilievre
Well, it is a hell of a, I don't think it's a true one, though.
His dad is Pierre.
His dad was very controversial while I grew up because he did a lot of damage to the oil sector.
And we're from oil country.
And so that was one of the things that I felt kind of resentful about the national government.
And one of the reasons I got involved is because the West deserved a fairer deal.
But I read a lot of books like, you know, Milton Friedman, Capitalism and Freedom, and I came to develop a philosophy based on just maximizing personal, financial, religious freedom.
Let people make their own decisions.
And that animated me to get involved in politics and fight for that.
And I've been doing it ever since.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
That's a fascinating transition from wrestling and tendinitis to deeply involved in politics.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
I mean, like, you know, you're a sports guy.
If you had suffered an injury that took you out of Taekwondo when you were young and you simply couldn't compete at anything, you'd probably be looking for some other adventure.
joe rogan
Yeah, which it was.
Well, we're lucky that stem cells weren't around back then, or you never would have gotten into politics.
pierre poilievre
That's right.
I would have been a wrestler.
I don't know if I would have won any awards, but yeah, that was how I got started.
And I got very active very quickly.
I got my first internship making $600 a month when I was 16 or 17 years old.
And I would take two trains and a bus and an hour and 45 minutes each way.
But I was so thrilled.
My dad bought me a used suit and a used pair of shoes.
And I thought, this is so incredible.
I'm an important guy.
I wear dress shoes.
I wear a tie.
Didn't matter that the tie was bought from some dead guy whose family had sold it to a used store.
But that was my start and I loved it.
joe rogan
Well, I'm really excited to have you in here because I've seen you speak multiple times and you're a very reasonable, intelligent person that makes a lot of sense.
And that is a rare thing in politics.
And I love Canada.
Finding Life's Meaning 00:07:32
joe rogan
Like, I just say I don't go up there anymore, but it's because I think the government went horribly wrong over the last X amount of years.
But the people are amazing.
It's like, I've always said that Canada has like, it's like America with like 20% less assholes.
Like every time I would go up there, I'm like, people are so nice.
They're like the nicest people.
And I think that's part of what went wrong for Canada, is that people are rule followers and they're trusting and kind people.
And this wolf in sheep's clothing snuck in and was pretending he was a sweet guy and passing all these crazy laws.
And just when we saw what happened with COVID, with just what happened with the truckers and people's accounts getting shut down for donating to the truckers, like the whole thing was so concerning because it's our Canada was like a part of America almost.
I mean, you're a different country, but it's like you used to be able to go over there with just a driver's license.
It was such a cool place.
I started going to the Montreal Comedy Festival in like 1993.
I loved it up there.
It's like one of my favorite places.
pierre poilievre
Just for laughs?
unidentified
Just pour.
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
Good.
How's your French?
joe rogan
Not good.
pierre poilievre
Okay, we'll work on that.
We'll get you some French licenses.
joe rogan
It's terrible.
I don't know any French words.
My wife is learning French, though.
It's interesting.
She's got this app that she's learning French.
But it's just an amazing place.
It's a great country.
And to see it go the way it's been going and sliding the way it's been happening over the last X amount of years.
There's just so many things that concern me.
One of the things that really concerns me is this assisted suicide thing.
Had one in 20 deaths in Canada is now assisted suicide.
That's insane.
pierre poilievre
Well, listen, my view is that people should have the choice, but the concern we have is the suggestion that it would be offered to kids or offered to people whose only condition is mental illness.
unidentified
Right.
pierre poilievre
I don't agree with that.
joe rogan
My concern as well.
I mean, if someone's got a terminal illness, like a good friend of mine went to Oregon to end his life because he had ALS.
unidentified
Okay.
joe rogan
But, I mean, he was gone.
I mean, he could barely talk at the end of his life.
His name is Michael Lehre.
He was a regular guest on Kill Tony.
Great guy.
And it was horrible.
I mean, watching him fade away and he wanted to go out on his own terms.
So he went to Oregon for assisted suicide.
I mean, there's a place for it.
But, I mean, there was a kid recently in Canada, and he did it for seasonal depression.
I'm sure you're aware of that case.
Like, who allowed that to happen?
Who didn't counsel this young guy?
Who didn't give him a hug?
Who didn't tell him about diet and exercise and changing your surroundings, your lifestyle, and just do something to give you some hope and happiness?
Like, seasonal depression?
unidentified
Really?
joe rogan
You're going to end your life, this beautiful life on this planet for seasonal depression?
pierre poilievre
And that's why we have to do more to give people hope when they're suffering with mental illness.
You know, give people the sense that they can take back control of their lives.
I think we do have to promote fitness more because it gives people, it turns them into a subject that controls their surroundings rather than an object being controlled.
It teaches people that hardship is temporary and that the aftermath is positive.
And we have to give people, reinstill people with a sense of meaning when they're going through hardship rather than to say that it's all over.
And, you know, I think we have to, our system needs to be geared towards giving people all the best options to live on rather than just suggesting MAID as the easy, as the automatic path for the system to impose on people.
So one of the things our party is pushing for is to make clear that public servants who are getting phone calls from people who are in need of help for something, they shouldn't be offering that.
They shouldn't be offering MAID.
People can seek it out if they want.
But when you're calling up saying, I'm poor or I'm struggling or I'm having a mental illness or I've got an injury, we shouldn't have a government worker saying, well, consider MAID.
joe rogan
Well, the unfortunate thing is that any organization that gets formed wants to grow.
And you get financial incentives and then you hire more people and then it gets bigger.
And then what do you have to do?
Well, you have to keep doing what you're doing.
What are you doing?
You're killing people.
So you're going to kill more people because you're actually financially incentivized to put more people through this program and end their lives.
That's very sad.
pierre poilievre
I think we have to get to a point where people have the freedom to make their own decisions, but they also have hope that there is an option for them.
joe rogan
And that's what we're trying to do.
And that's a pathway.
And the exercise thing, it's not just give them control of their life.
It makes them happier.
There's been studies that show it's much more effective than antidepressants.
pierre poilievre
Absolutely.
Well, first of all, there's the physiological side, which affects the brain, but it's also the sensation of discomfort that you push through, knowing that you have to focus on the thing you have to do.
And that, I think, it helps us in anything we're encountering, whether you're going through a divorce or a bankruptcy or an injury or an illness, if you know that pushing through to the other side, because you've got a meaning there, that can give people hope for a better life.
You know, my favorite psychologist is Victor Frankel.
And he developed this Lagos treatment, which was basically giving people a sense of meaning.
He survived the Holocaust in the concentration camp because he had a sense of meaning that he wanted to, his book was stolen from him in the concentration camp about this theory, and he wanted to live on so he could survive and write that book.
And then he found in his teaching that it wasn't so much people's circumstances that determined their happiness, it was whether they had a meaning in life.
And he tells this incredible story of a group therapy session where he had this very rich woman who was married to a very rich man.
And he had next to him another lady who was living in terrible poverty.
She'd lost a son and had a second severely disabled son.
And he said to both of them, what will your life look like when you're 80 years old and you're on your deathbed?
And the wealthier lady said, well, I will look back and think that I had some fun and enjoyed the luxuries of being very wealthy and having an easy life, that there wasn't a lot of meaning to it.
And whereas the mother who was struggling with a disabled child and had lost another one said, well, I gave my first child a great life, a short one, but a great one.
I struggled to give my disabled child a good, dignified existence.
And I leave this world satisfied and happy that my life had purpose and meaning.
And the lesson I take from that is that it is not about whether you have a gazillion dollars or whether your life is easy.
It's whether you have some meaning to invest your life into.
And I think we have to infuse people's lives with meaning so that they can live a good life.
joe rogan
Well, that's a great message.
And I think that's one of the most important parts of being a leader is having a great message and having a great philosophy and having a great perspective.
Loyal Opposition Role 00:07:49
joe rogan
And I mean, that's what disturbed me the most about when Trudeau was running the country, that I didn't feel like that.
I felt like he was manipulating people with woke politics and ideology and that it was just this weird, slippery slope that people were falling down where they're losing rights and you're losing your ability to express yourself.
And it just really disturbed me because I always felt that Canada was like one of the freest places and one of the most open-minded places.
And it just, I didn't understand how it could fall so quickly.
pierre poilievre
We are a free country and we are a democracy.
We have preserved that.
You know, my leader, this funny moment when Joe Biden came to Parliament Hill and I said, Mr. President, I'm Pierre Polyeb.
I'm the leader of His Majesty's loyal opposition.
And he said, loyal opposition?
How can you be loyal and opposition at the same time?
It's like, what the hell are you talking about?
And because you guys have a system based on a republic, whereas ours is the British system.
And in our system, the opposition is an act of loyalty.
That's what our system, it means that if you are opposing the government, you're doing it out of loyalty to the good of the people.
In our House of Commons, you have a half circle in your Congress.
We have two sides in our parliament.
It's two and a half sword lengths apart because they used to literally kill each other in the old English days.
But the idea is the opposition is to prosecute the hell out of the government, make the mighty low, the most powerful people in the country are supposed to tremble every time they walk in that place because every mistake they made, every abuse of power, every corruption they might have done can be exposed and in front of all eyes.
So our system is really designed to constrain the power of government through what we call parliament.
Like I don't work for government.
I work for parliament and parliament works for the people.
We call it the House of Commons because it's the House of the Common People.
It's green in there because they used to meet in the fields of England.
And so I really view the world of our Parliament to limit the power of government, to maximize the power of the people, make people bigger, stronger, and more fulfilled by having the government narrowly focus on the things it's supposed to do.
Roads, military, basic social safety net, borders, police, et cetera, but then leave people alone to live their lives.
If I were to start a political party from scratch, it would be the mind-your-own damn business party.
You know, just get the government to do its job well, do four or five things really well, and then let people live their lives.
joe rogan
Well, that sounds very reasonable.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, I mean, anybody that doesn't go along with that, anybody that's opposed to that, that doesn't even make sense.
pierre poilievre
No, look, like I said, the way I grew up and everything I've seen ever since, when I talk to farmers or factory workers, electricians, I find they know just as much or more than the so-called experts I encounter on Parliament Hill.
Like back during COVID, when all these governments were printing money and all the politicians and bankers said, oh, this is great.
Look at all this money we get to spend.
I walk around communities and I'd have like mechanics say, you know, we're going to have inflation.
And I would say, yeah, it makes sense to me.
And I'd go back to Parliament Hill and the experts would all say, no, no, there's not going to be any inflation.
And sure enough, all that money filtered into the economy, bid up all the goods we buy, and everybody got smoked with higher prices.
But the point is that it was the common people who don't study this stuff for a living, who don't read endless reports and studies, who could just figure out that if there's money pouring into the economy that's not matched by goods and services, it's going to bid up the cost of everything.
So that's my experience and my ideology is the common guy knows how to make his own decisions.
We need to empower him to do that.
joe rogan
Yeah, just stay out of people's lives.
pierre poilievre
Exactly.
joe rogan
So there's a narrative in America, and the narrative is that you were about to win and your party was about to win, but then Trump came along and said he was going to turn Canada into the 51st state.
And everybody went crazy.
Is that accurate?
pierre poilievre
I wouldn't say they went crazy.
I mean, like they got very upset.
They should be upset, though.
joe rogan
I mean, it's a crazy thing to say.
pierre poilievre
It is a crazy thing to say.
Canada's not for sale.
We're never going to be the 51st state.
You know, we love Americans as neighbors and friends, but we want to be uniquely and we want to be sovereign as Canadians.
It's our country.
It's where we grow up.
You're a patriot as an American.
I'm a patriot as a Canadian.
It's where my grandfather arrived.
It's where our collective ancestors put on military uniforms and sailed to fight wars.
It's where our grandkids are going to live.
We're very proudly Canadian.
So we're never going to be the 51st state.
And I just wish he'd knock that shit off so that we can get back to talking about the things that we can do as two separate, but two separate countries that are actually friends.
joe rogan
Did that really have that much of an effect up there?
Like, did people take him seriously?
pierre poilievre
I think at first everyone thought it was a joke because we've always had these jokes like, you know, one day we're going to take over Vermont and Detroit should be part of Canada and all that stuff.
But then he kept saying it and saying it.
And, you know, it became a lot of people got upset about it.
And I think understandably so.
joe rogan
Understandably.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, it's a crazy thing to say.
pierre poilievre
It is a crazy thing to say.
joe rogan
I told you.
I was just saying about it.
It was so funny.
It's like, at first, I was joking, but then people were like, it's a good idea.
That's not a good idea.
pierre poilievre
Nobody's saying that.
I can assure him of that.
And the tariffs aren't a good idea either.
We should get the tariffs out because there's so much we could be doing together as neighbors and partners if we got rid of those tariffs.
I think what are the biggest problems in America today?
Affordability, security.
And we can help with both.
We knock the tariffs down.
Let's look at affordability.
We have the fourth biggest supply of oil anywhere on earth.
You guys pay a huge price discount for our oil because we're effectively, all our infrastructure to ship it is north-south.
And it's a very unique heavy oil.
So we accept, unfortunately, and for now, a price discount on the oil we send you, which can translate into more jobs and paychecks, but also lower energy prices.
You've got $5 a gallon right now in lots of places in America.
You're buying, I want to produce more so we can sell 2 million more barrels of Canadian oil into the U.S. market.
And then there's housing.
You've got huge housing pressures on young people.
They can't afford a place to live.
We're the biggest supplier of lumber for home building of any country that imports to the United States, exports to the United States.
We've got very low cost but high-quality softwood lumber we could be shipping.
Or the best truck, the best-selling truck in America for 45 years now is the Ford Series.
It's aluminum.
It's a military-grade aluminum body.
You guys can't make enough aluminum here.
You don't have enough bauxite or electricity to convert it into alumina and aluminum.
You get your aluminum from us.
A tariff does not bring the production to America.
It raises the price of the aluminum and therefore the F-Series truck.
Get rid of that tariff.
You lower taxes.
You lower the cost of an F-Series truck for the miner in Appalachia or the electrician in Ohio.
And that's just on the affordability side.
There's a lot we can do with our minerals to make the continent a hell of a lot safer as well.
So I think it's in America's interest to come towards a tariff-free deal and trade freely as friends.
And that will be good for both of us.
joe rogan
Have you had conversations with Trump about this?
pierre poilievre
No.
Prime Minister Rule 00:05:20
pierre poilievre
I believe in the rule of one prime minister at a time.
So I fought like hell to win.
I didn't win.
We came very close.
So I've said, listen, I'll leave it to the prime minister to do the negotiating.
And I've said I'll support him any way I can.
Even in my visit down here, I'm sending him text messages to tell him what's going on, to try and support his work, because we both want what's best for Canada.
joe rogan
Where are your elections now?
When do you have the next elections?
pierre poilievre
This is a strangely hard question to answer because you have a weird system.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's weird in comparison to ours.
pierre poilievre
Yours are fixed, as you know.
Ours, we have technically fixed election dates, but the government can fall at any time.
It's very simple.
A rule is that if the opposition parties bind up and they can vote down the government, that is to say the majority of MPs in the House say we've lost confidence in the government.
The election is now.
Or if the prime minister decides he wants an election, he can call it and the election is now.
But it has to be sometime in the next roughly three years.
joe rogan
Oh, so you have a deadline where it's going to take place?
pierre poilievre
Yeah, that's right.
joe rogan
But it could happen tomorrow.
pierre poilievre
It wouldn't necessarily be tomorrow, but like, you know, in the next few weeks, if there were a non-confidence vote and the government lost it, then they go to an election.
So it's kind of like the British system.
joe rogan
Interesting.
unidentified
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
Oh, it is the British system, really.
We adopted the British system almost identically.
joe rogan
So when you're campaigning, you're essentially, this is like a long game.
You're just laying out your strategy, laying out what you would do to make Canada a better place.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
Well, we have two roles.
So I said I'm the leader of the opposition, but I'm also prime minister in waiting.
So the notion is that the Canadian people should not only have a government, but they should have an alternative.
And that alternative has two functions, official opposition.
It's actually called that.
I think it's a proper noun, capital O, official, capital O opposition, and also government in waiting.
So you have to be prosecuting the government, but you have to present yourself to people in a way where they say, yeah, that guy or that team could actually be the government.
Those are the dual roles that I have to carry out.
joe rogan
Interesting.
And how long have you been attempting to become prime minister for?
How long has this been going on for?
pierre poilievre
Almost exactly four years because I launched my campaign in February of 2022.
joe rogan
Was this something that you had always had in the back of your mind?
pierre poilievre
I'd say in the back of my mind, but it wasn't something I was set on.
Like I thought maybe, you know, when I'm in my 50s or 60s, I would try it, but I was in no rush to do that.
joe rogan
How old are you now?
pierre poilievre
I'm now 46.
joe rogan
And so what motivated you to do it?
pierre poilievre
Well, you know, after COVID, as COVID was unfolding, it wasn't just the COVID policies themselves.
It was the economic policies.
Because I've been very focused on economics in my parliamentary career.
And I was seeing the size and cost of government, not just in Canada, but all around the world, growing so much.
And that inflation was just destroying the working class people and that it was going to get a lot worse.
And so I ran on the platform of making Canada the freest country on earth.
We had a tradition of freedom in Canada.
One of our earliest prime ministers, Wilfrid Laurier, was asked, what's Canada's nationality?
And he couldn't actually list an ethnicity or a religion because we were already mixed up even 100 years ago.
We had Scots and Irish and First Peoples.
So he said, look, yeah, French, most of all, French and English and First Nations.
So he said, Canada is free and freedom is its nationality.
And I wanted to reinstate that idea.
I wanted it to be the freest country anywhere on earth.
And so I ran on that platform and won the leadership and then ran in the last election and stayed on after that election.
So that's kind of the last four years of my journey.
joe rogan
And so the way your elections work now, so you're essentially just stating your case and going around and talking about what policies you would implement and how you would do things differently and just waiting to see how it all plays out.
pierre poilievre
We have – see, our prime minister is different than the president.
He's actually part of the legislative branch.
So he comes in to the House of Commons and we debate multiple times a week, he and I.
So it's not just, you know, in your system, the Republican and Democrat hold like four debates right before the election.
In our system, we're always debating.
So he comes in, he's on one side.
I come in, I'm on the other side.
And I ask him like six consecutive questions, and then he answers.
And we go back and forth.
And that's called question period.
Then we have these committees where we prosecute and propose on finance, natural resources, healthcare, you name it.
So we're constantly prosecuting the government, also proposing better ideas at the same time.
So like the other day, I proposed to bring back the auto-pack between Canada and the U.S. to have tariff-free trade going both ways across the border.
So that's an example of how I'm in a position to actually offer solutions, even though I'm not in the government.
And then hopefully government actually steals my ideas.
Constant Debate System 00:05:15
pierre poilievre
And I've been encouraging them to steal my ideas.
joe rogan
So what is the problem?
pierre poilievre
Is this coffee, by the way?
Yes, I need some caffeine.
I'm a terrible caffeine addict.
joe rogan
Me too.
Cheers.
pierre poilievre
Cheers.
joe rogan
Oh, and shout out to George St. Pierre for hooking this up.
pierre poilievre
Yes, George is a good man.
unidentified
He's the best.
pierre poilievre
He's a great guy.
He said he's going to have me do some pad work with him at some point.
joe rogan
Oh, really?
pierre poilievre
That's pretty dangerous.
joe rogan
Oh, that's awesome.
He's here all the time.
pierre poilievre
He's a fantastic guy.
joe rogan
Yeah, he's the best.
He's one of the best representatives of martial arts you could ever hope to meet.
pierre poilievre
He's got humility.
I remember he came to Parliament Hill years ago, and I thought, geez, he's going to be because I thought he'd be cocky and swagger, but he was so down to earth.
joe rogan
Oh, so humanity.
pierre poilievre
So much humility.
joe rogan
For what he's accomplished in MMA, I've introduced him to people, and they have no idea who he is.
And then I go, that is one of the greatest fighters that ever walked the face of the earth.
pierre poilievre
Absolutely.
joe rogan
No way.
He's so nice.
pierre poilievre
And that's the Canadian way, though.
Like, it's soft-spoken and gentle and kind, but don't piss us off.
joe rogan
Yeah, but tough.
Yeah, that's where Trump fucked up.
I wonder what would have happened if he didn't go along with that 51st state nonsense.
I mean, that is the narrative in this country.
Like I said, that if he didn't do that, that you would have won.
pierre poilievre
Well, you never know, but I try not to cry over spilled milk.
I focus on what I have to do and live in the present.
But this new guy, Malotte, have you followed him, Mike Malotte?
unidentified
Oh, sure.
I know Mike.
pierre poilievre
He's going to be fighting in Winnipeg.
I think he's the next GSP.
joe rogan
He's very good.
pierre poilievre
You like him?
joe rogan
Yeah, he's excellent.
pierre poilievre
He did a great job in Montreal if you saw him there.
joe rogan
But I've been to many of his bunch of his fights.
pierre poilievre
Is that right?
joe rogan
He's excellent.
Yeah, he's excellent.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, my buddy is his trainer, Crew Allen Hamalgant, in Hamilton.
He's a Hamilton Steeltown guy.
And anyway, we're hoping that he has a big win in Winnipeg.
joe rogan
Well, you guys have one of the best gyms in the world, TriStar in Montreal.
pierre poilievre
Is that right?
joe rogan
Ferras Ahabi.
There's like maybe a handful of great masterminds in MMA as far as coaches.
And Ferras is at the top of the list.
pierre poilievre
Is that right?
And what's his discipline?
joe rogan
He's trained GSP.
pierre poilievre
Is his discipline karate or kickboxing?
Muay Thai?
joe rogan
I mean, he's a true mixed martial artist, black belt and jiu-jitsu, kickboxing.
I mean, he can do everything.
And he has an TriStar is a place where a lot of people from America go up there for their camps.
pierre poilievre
Interesting.
joe rogan
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
I'll have to drop in and see those guys.
joe rogan
Oh, it's phenomenal.
I mean, like I said, GSP trained up there, a lot of fighters trained up there.
And he also had a great working relationship with a lot of people in America.
So he would come down and, you know, they would exchange fighters back and forth and train with each other.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
Well, we have a great martial arts tradition in Canada.
I don't know if you know Mike Miles.
He brought Muay Thai from Thailand to Calgary, like back in the 70s or 80s.
And he still got a great gym there.
joe rogan
Do you know who Jean-Eve Terrio is?
pierre poilievre
Yes, he's a buddy of mine.
joe rogan
Oh, really?
pierre poilievre
From Ottawa, yeah.
joe rogan
Oh, no kidding.
Yeah, he was a hero of mine when I was a kid.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, he's incredible.
joe rogan
When I was kickboxing, he was like my idol.
unidentified
Really?
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
Does he know that?
joe rogan
I never talked to him.
pierre poilievre
Well, he's going to see.
joe rogan
He bought his book.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
joe rogan
I bought his book.
I started running stairs because of his book.
He was talking about how it increased his leg muscles and his kicking power.
pierre poilievre
I remember that.
It was in one of his documentaries or something.
He said his kicks weren't strong enough, so he would do stares.
But I went and trained at his dojo a few times.
It's in South Ottawa.
joe rogan
He was incredible.
He was one of the truly elite kickboxers of his time.
pierre poilievre
He was a great boxer.
Like, I know he never competed as a boxer, but his hands were fantastic.
joe rogan
Well, that's really what separated him from a lot of other people was like his accuracy and his technique was pristine.
pierre poilievre
He told me that he would spend hours studying the distances that your limbs would have to travel depending on how you moved.
He was kind of like a scientist in the way he learned and studied.
And he was all about simplicity and removing anything unnecessary.
I think Bruce Lee said that.
He said simplicity, hack away at the unnecessary.
And, you know, how do you, what's the shortest distance to hit the strike?
And he's got a great, he's a really good heart, too.
You know, he had a jiu-jitsu club as well.
And when I went in there, there was a blind fellow who was into jiu-jitsu, which you can do as a blind person because it's so much about feel.
But with COVID, he couldn't do jiu-jitsu anymore because they disallowed that kind of close contact.
So he actually found a way to train this guy with focus mitts, even though he was blind.
It was really incredible.
unidentified
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
But it was an incredible amount of patience he had invested in making sure this young man could keep doing his physical activity throughout COVID.
joe rogan
Wait a minute.
So they allowed pad work, but they didn't allow jiu-jitsu?
pierre poilievre
I don't know if it was a government policy or if it was just a policy at the gym because you're just so wrapped up and sweating alleged.
joe rogan
The gyms in America, everybody just kept going.
Common Sense Extraction 00:15:43
joe rogan
Kept going.
They hid.
They would put foil over the windows and hide or come in through the back door.
A lot of the gyms in L.A., that's what they did.
pierre poilievre
They just plowed ahead.
joe rogan
This figured out a way to not get in trouble.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And some people did get caught and get in trouble and nothing ever came of it because it's pretty unconstitutional to tell people that they can't work out together.
Like the government really didn't have the right to tell people that they couldn't do what they wanted to do.
That was a legal thing that you can do.
Like all of a sudden, there's this mandate, there's this law or rule being passed down, or at least it's being promoted, that you're not allowed to go to a gym and work out with other people.
But those are the healthiest people.
Those are the people that are the least likely to get sick.
Like this, this is crazy to say.
And you know, if you're sick, and if you just have a good gym with good people, say, hey, don't show up if you're sick.
Everybody should be okay.
These are the people you should worry about the least.
pierre poilievre
We need to have common sense again.
And too many governments in the Western world have gotten way too bossy.
They're just looking for every excuse to boss people around.
And that's what we have to push back again.
And it's, you know, EV mandates or, you know, excessive control of the internet or the massive increase in the cost of government, which is really like appropriating the private voluntary economy into the coercive government economy.
That's what we're seeing across Europe, in the UK, parts of the United States, as well as back home.
So we need to reverse that trend and get people back in charge of their lives.
joe rogan
Well, the narrative has always been that rights lost are never regained or are very, very difficult to regain them.
So how could you reverse that?
pierre poilievre
Well, you have to keep fighting.
I mean, we did regain our rights after COVID and, you know, the people have to look at the history of it.
unidentified
How did.
joe rogan
Which rights did you regain?
pierre poilievre
Well, all the mandates are gone now.
joe rogan
Of course, but those were ridiculous anyway.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, they were ridiculous.
joe rogan
And they also impeded business.
They ruined people's lives, social lives.
pierre poilievre
But freedom has always had to be taken.
Our tradition goes back to 1215 with the Magna Carta, the Great Charter.
And most of the freedoms we have today were in that original document.
Right to a jury trial, no arrest without charge, no confiscation without compensation, no taxation without representation.
All comes from that one document, the Magna Carta.
And it was because King John was taken aside by the Barons and they said, listen, pal, this is the choice.
Either you sign this and follow it, or we overthrow you.
And as a result, we got the Magna Carta.
And when you guys had your Boston Tea Party and said you can't tax our tea because we don't elect you, that was an appeal as English.
You were Englishmen saying, I'm not, we're Englishmen.
We have the right not to be taxed unless we vote for it and we're going to throw you out otherwise.
But that came out of the fields of Running Meat in England in 1215.
So it's a long march towards freedom and it's never actually done.
Like there's no permanent victories or defeats.
You just have to keep going forward.
joe rogan
So if you were elected, let's say you get in right now, what's one of the first things you would do?
pierre poilievre
I would unblock our resources.
So we have the most resources of any country in the world per capita, bar none.
We need to have, to make it happen, though, we need to have the fastest permits anywhere in the world and the lowest taxes on producing those resources.
We're the fourth in oil, the number one in uranium, number one in potash for fertilizer.
We have the fifth biggest supplier of natural gas.
We have the longest oceanic coastline.
Like we are, we have 12 of NATO's, sorry, we have 10 of 12 of NATO's defined defense minerals.
So, you know, you had that guy, Palmer Lucky, on.
I don't think he can make his stuff without Canadian minerals.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe he'll correct me, but like night vision technology, you need to have germanium for that.
You need to have gallium to make semiconductors and radar.
You need to have aluminum for armored vehicles and airplanes.
You need cobalt for heat-resistant alloys and fighter jets.
You need tungsten for body, sorry, armor-piercing ammunition.
We have it all.
And what I want to do is unblock those resources, produce them in abundance for ourselves and our allies, make $200,000 paychecks for our trades workers, build up an enormous strategic stockpile of it so that we have tons of leverage in international relations.
And if God forbid there is ever a global conflict, we would have all the resources necessary to win it.
But we need to get rid of a lot of laws that are blocking and replace them with laws that have fast permitting so that we can produce this stuff on scale very quickly.
joe rogan
So is the concern the environmental impact of extracting these things?
Is that what's holding it up?
pierre poilievre
That's the ostensible reason.
But I just think across the Western world, like Europe, UK, parts of the U.S., and Canada, there's a problem with bureaucracy just growing way too damn big.
Like, you know, the First Nations in our country are incredibly forward-looking.
The Squamish built 6,000 units of housing on 10 acres of land, you can believe it, in a town, in a city of Vancouver where it's very hard to get a permit to do anything because it was their land, so they did it.
They're trying to build, they're building now an LNG liquefaction plant where they replaced an old dirty mill.
They cleaned it up and put an LNG plant there.
But the federal government took a lot of time, 14 years, to give them a permit.
So we need to think like they're thinking, which is entrepreneurial, speed of business, get it done quickly.
That's how you develop.
Like we have this community in my district.
It's called Hardesty, 600 people.
They manage $100 billion of oil in a town of 600 people.
Why is it there?
Because their municipality offers a permit in one week with one page.
And I wanted to tell this story, so I called them and I said, can I have someone come and do a video with me?
And they said, we don't have anyone here.
We don't have like bureaucrats that can help you.
They're all out on their farms right now.
They come in, they stamp the permit, and they go back to their farm.
Well, that's why we have $100 billion of energy moving through the area, which is bigger than the GDP of many countries, because they have fast permits.
And that's what we need in Canada.
We need to be the fastest place to get things done.
joe rogan
But don't you think you need some safeguards to protect the environment?
And how do you balance that out?
pierre poilievre
Protect it quickly.
We can figure out whether a project is damaging to the environment in weeks and months rather than decades.
There's nothing you're going to learn in year 14 of the review that you couldn't have learned in month 14.
So there's ways to protect the environment.
When the Germans, so when the Germans had to break their dependence on Russia after it invaded Ukraine, they approved an LNG import terminal in 60 days.
They completed the whole damn thing in less than 200 days.
And guess what?
No environmental problems.
They got their engineers to sit down and figure out how to do it quickly.
And that's the mentality that we need to get in Canada.
joe rogan
So what would you be able to do to bypass all this bureaucracy?
How could that be done legally?
pierre poilievre
Well, you slim it down to one project, one environmental review instead of 20 or 30.
You have a fixed timeline that the bureaucrats have to give an answer of six months rather than just as long as they want to drag it on for.
And the other thing I would do is study areas where they're perfectly situated to have a project like a pipeline or a mine or an LNG export terminal or a port expansion.
And I would pre-permit it.
I would say to our officials, go in, study, make sure that the environmental aspects are all in good order.
I'll issue a pre-permit.
And then anybody who comes along and wants to build it, as long as they follow the terms and act responsibly, has a guaranteed permit before they even apply for it.
And I think we would have a roaring economy if we did that.
joe rogan
That sounds awesome, but the great fear is that if you do have an impact on the environment, that impact is often permanent.
And it's devastating.
And I've seen some of the oil extraction that they've done up in Alberta.
Where you look at the area, it looks like scorched earth.
pierre poilievre
No, It's the most responsible oil extraction in the world.
joe rogan
But when you see these, what is that one area that often gets criticized?
pierre poilievre
Fort Mac.
joe rogan
Is that what it is?
pierre poilievre
Yeah, they're open-pit mines.
You open up a mine, you take out the bitumen, you separate the sand from the oil, you make it less viscous by putting diluent in it, and you ship it off.
And then after the oil is, after the mining is done, they resurface it, and you wouldn't even know there was a mine there.
joe rogan
And there's no impact to groundwater, no impact to the environment.
pierre poilievre
I mean, there's an impact no matter what you do, but at the end of the day, the people who live there are very healthy and very happy, and they're the strongest supporters of the expansion of the oil sands.
It's an incredible...
joe rogan
Because economically, it's...
pierre poilievre
Oh, it's incredible.
It's the best resource in the world.
It's like there's no decline rate.
You guys have shale here, but as the years go by, you get less and less out of a shale reservoir.
We have very little decline.
We can keep producing and producing.
We have what's called in situ, where there's an entire oil sands operation under your feet.
You could be out in a forest hunting, and you wouldn't even know that under your feet they're extracting it through a whole system of pipes where they inject just steam, steam vapor, that loosens up the oil.
It sinks down, it goes into another pipe, comes up to the top, and you can have beautiful, pristine nature.
The bears, the deer, the birds, they don't even know that there's extraction happening under their feet.
So we have the best industry, the most responsible industry anywhere in the world.
It's been a really disgusting PR campaign by extremist environmentalists and frankly some of our competitors to try and make our industry look bad.
But it's the best industry in the world.
joe rogan
Yeah, they got me.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, well.
joe rogan
I saw some videos on it.
I was like, oh, my God, what are they doing to the ground?
What are they doing to the earth?
It looks horrible.
pierre poilievre
It's all bullshit.
We have the.
joe rogan
It looks horrible.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, but I mean, that's just a superficial look at it.
I'll take you for a tour in the oil sands.
You'll be amazed.
We have the best engineers in the world.
And by the way, the First Nations people absolutely love it because it's lifting their people out of poverty.
They're getting enormous job opportunities out of it.
One of our MPs is a former chief where they took 18% unemployment, brought it down to three, balanced their budget.
Another one of my members of parliament in northern British Columbia negotiated a $40 billion LNG plant on the Heisla territory.
It's completely eliminating poverty for the First Nations there.
And by exporting clean Canadian natural gas, which we can liquefy 25% cheaper because it's cold as hell in Canada, they actually displace dirty coal overseas.
So instead of Asia burning coal, they're burning clean Canadian gas that's delivered by First Nations partnership.
So this is the best way to do it.
makes everybody richer, and makes our entire continent better off.
joe rogan
Well, it seems so simple, the way you're laying it out.
I don't understand why this hasn't been implemented.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, this is the story of my life.
It's frustrating.
joe rogan
But is it that simple?
Is it really that this is what's holding everything up?
The bureaucracy and the time it takes for permits and like a lot of things.
Regulations.
pierre poilievre
We have the same thing in housing.
And so do you.
Like if you look at California, it's terrible.
Like, why is there such a housing shortage in California?
It's because it takes forever to get a permit and there's always bureaucracy standing in the way.
And it totally screws over the working class youth who can't find a place to live because they're not being built.
And we have that challenge in Canada as well.
And so that's why I proposed ideas to cut the bureaucracy and the taxes so that we can build affordable homes for our youth.
Because right now we have a whole generation that can't afford homes.
And that was one of the biggest issues I ran on.
Homeownership is necessary for family formation, for civil peace and society where everybody feels like they have a piece of the pie.
We need to expand home ownership.
But to do that, you've got to get the government gatekeepers out of the way, speed up the permits, free up the land, cut the development taxes.
joe rogan
So let's assume that you got in office.
How much time would it take to start implementing these things?
And how quickly would that impact be felt by the Canadian people?
pierre poilievre
Look, I think a lot of them could move very quickly.
There are a lot of projects that investors are sitting on, but they don't have certainty in permits.
So I would unblock that.
And I think in the first year, you would start to see immediate benefits for the working people who would be getting these jobs.
Some of it would take more and more like a medium term.
Like the second thing I would go after is just the inflationary spending, which is a big problem all over the Western world.
Like people just can't afford to live.
I don't know if you encounter that around here.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, inflation is crazy.
And it's, I mean, the national debt in America just went up to 39 trillion.
pierre poilievre
Right, which is bigger than your GDP.
joe rogan
It's a lot of money.
pierre poilievre
So explain this to me.
50 years ago, a barber and a barber and a waitress could buy a house with a big yard for a dog and raise four kids, meat and potatoes on the dinner table every night.
And now an accountant and a lawyer can't do that.
Why is that?
joe rogan
Well, there's a lot of spending and a lot of making money, a lot of just turning, you know, just making dollar bills with nothing behind it, nothing to back it.
pierre poilievre
This is the biggest fraud perpetrated on the working class people in the last hundred years.
joe rogan
Printing money is just insane.
The idea you just print more money.
And people go, okay.
pierre poilievre
Well, it looks painless at first, but if you have an economy with 10 apples and $10, it's a buck an apple.
You double the number of dollars to 20, but you still only have 10 apples.
Well, all of a sudden it's $2 an apple.
It's not that the cost of apples has gone up.
It still costs the same resources to grow and pick the apples.
It's that the price has gone up because the value of the money has gone down.
So in America, over the last 55 years, you've doubled the number of homes in America, from 70 million to 150 million.
You know how much the money supply has grown?
30 times.
So you have twice the homes, but 30 times the cash.
So what's happened?
Housing costs have gone up 15-fold in 55 years.
And now an entire generation of kids can't afford homes.
We have exactly the same problem in Canada.
This is the biggest wealth transfer from the working class to the elites, from, I say the have-nots to the have-yachts.
And Washington and Wall Street love it, by the way, because it inflates the stock market, inflates the bureaucracy.
Politicians get to spend.
CEOs get their stocks inflated.
But it destroys the working people.
Housing Scarcity Crisis 00:14:25
pierre poilievre
And we need to get back to hard money.
Everything should be getting cheaper, by the way.
You know, it takes 60 to 80 percent less resources to grow food.
We grow four times the food on the same acre, get four times as much milk from the same cow.
We use 80% less water and fertilizer.
So why isn't it that food is not less expensive?
It's because all of those gains are being erased by monetary inflation.
So it's not that food is more costly.
It's that the money we use to buy it has less purchasing power.
And we need to do what the Swiss do, which is they don't print money.
They have balanced budgets.
They have almost no deficit.
And they have almost zero inflation in Switzerland.
They have the strongest money in the world, the Swiss franc.
And we would all be better if we operated like the Swiss when it comes to our money.
joe rogan
So in a real-world scenario, it's like you take over Canada, how would you go about implementing this?
pierre poilievre
You've got to cut bureaucracy, consultants, which consume, by the way, $26 billion of spending.
joe rogan
How big is your debt in Canada?
pierre poilievre
$1.3-ish trillion.
joe rogan
Oh, that's baby debt.
pierre poilievre
It's compared to you.
You guys are ridiculous.
unidentified
Wild.
pierre poilievre
But, you know, you've gotten away with it because the dollar, the American dollar, is the reserve currency.
So all these countries prop up the value of the U.S. dollar by keeping it on reserve.
You better hope that doesn't change.
joe rogan
Yeah, better hope.
pierre poilievre
We don't have that luxury.
But we do have a lot of debt, and we have provinces too.
They're quite indebted.
But I would cut the bureaucracy.
I would cut consultants.
Foreign aid.
I'd cut way back on foreign aid.
We give up corporate welfare, these checks to corporations.
I believe business should make money rather than take money.
So I would get rid of that.
We're giving a lot of money to fake refugees, people who come in and don't actually, or they're not actually fleeing danger.
Like I love real refugees.
My wife was a refugee, but I have no time for people who are pretending, but they're not really.
joe rogan
And what do you mean by pretending to be a refugee?
How are they doing this?
pierre poilievre
They're not actually endangered in their home country.
So they've come to be declared themselves as students and then wanting to stay, declaring a refugee status.
joe rogan
Oh, and this is common?
pierre poilievre
Yeah, it happens.
It happens.
And they just want to have a better life.
So I don't begrudge them as people, but we can't spend money on enhanced social services, advanced programs that we as Canadians don't get for people who are not paying into.
joe rogan
So you're not opposed to them being there.
You're opposed to them getting Canadian.
pierre poilievre
I'm opposed to them.
If they're not real refugees, they shouldn't be brought in as refugees.
I think we have to distinguish between those people who are actually in danger in their home country, which is the definition of a refugee, and someone who just wants to come in in excess of their proper immigration.
joe rogan
Is it that common that it's actually affecting our economy?
pierre poilievre
Right now it's a challenge because we had a big number of international students and temporary foreign workers that came in in very large numbers in like two or three years.
We were bringing in about a million people a year, which in America's terms would be 10 million, like just if you're doing per capita.
And it really caused a housing shortage, like some places where you have 26 of these students living in one basement.
So we're trying to unwind that now.
joe rogan
And how do you do that?
pierre poilievre
Well, when their work permit and their visitor visa runs out, then we have to encourage them to head back lawfully.
joe rogan
Right.
But you don't want to do it ICE style.
unidentified
No.
pierre poilievre
No, I don't think we need to do that.
I just think we have to be orderly and lawful about it.
joe rogan
And is that supported by the Canadian people?
pierre poilievre
Yes, because we're a very welcoming country.
We're a nation of immigrants, but we're also a nation of laws.
And there's a general consensus across the spectrum in Canada that the population growth was too fast for like four or five years.
And so we're trying to unwind that now.
joe rogan
What are the other things that you would have to do to drop your debt and sort of balance your budget and begin to turn things around?
pierre poilievre
Well, in addition, so I like this idea that actually, believe it or not, that Bill Clinton and the Republicans did in the 90s in the U.S., it was called the pay-go law.
It was a very simple principle.
Every time the administration wanted to bring in a new dollar of spending, they had to match it with a dollar of savings.
So there was no extra net spending for like eight years.
And that's when your government balanced its budget and paid off $400 billion of debt.
That law lapsed in 2002.
And immediately after that, America went back into deficits.
And you haven't emerged.
You've been in deficit now for 25 years.
This is about internalizing the scarcity.
Every creature in the universe, every bird in the trees, every fish in the seas, has to live with scarcity, maximizing use of scarce resources.
The only creature who doesn't do that is the politician because he's always using someone else's money.
It's like, oh, well, I'll just print it or borrow it or tax it.
It's not my money.
And so they routinely show up to their cabinet meetings and say, well, I've got a new idea.
It's $100 million.
Where are you going to get it?
I don't know.
We'll print it.
We'll borrow it.
We'll tax it.
Not my money.
But if you had a law saying you can't actually bring a proposal to cabinet unless you have matching savings to pay for it, well, then you'd have these politicians walking up and down the hallways in their departments looking for waste and like rooting it out.
So instead of making the single mom, the senior or the small business owner live with scarcity, I want the politicians and bureaucrats to live with scarcity.
And that's what I would impose by law on my government.
joe rogan
Well, it's just a rational way to deal with the problem.
Like, don't spend money unless you could save money.
pierre poilievre
Exactly.
joe rogan
That's how you balance things out.
I mean, Clinton did balance the budget during his time.
And people forget that because we've always assumed that there's always been this extraordinary debt, but that's not the case.
During the 1990s, I mean, he did a fantastic job at that.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, it was that Congress was very disciplined as well, and the American people just got fed up and said, we're not tolerating these deficits anymore.
And they imposed scarcity from the center.
And by the way, the economy boomed because the government was restrained and the free market economy could just roar.
And that's another part of the equation, by the way, is unlock the power of free enterprise.
Like this is the 250th anniversary, not just of the Declaration of Independence, but also of Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, where he basically, for the first time in human history, described the free market system.
And that was starting to flourish in the States and in parts of Europe.
And that system basically started to come into place after the late 1770s.
The growth since the free market system has come into place in the world has been 200 times faster than it was before because there is the most powerful system for generating material benefit for the people.
And that's what we need to restore in Canada.
I want to make it the freest economy in the world.
joe rogan
Well, that all sounds amazing.
how the hell did you lose?
How could a rational person not vote for that?
I mean, you're not saying anything that's restrictive.
You're not saying anything that is in any way infringing on people's rights or liberties.
It just sounds like it's just 100% positive for Canada.
pierre poilievre
That's what I think.
That's my mission.
And I think it will be positive.
And we'll get there.
You know, Canadians do things through evolution, not revolution.
So I'm just going to keep pushing my ideas.
And I think that I think overwhelmingly we'll win the next election.
joe rogan
Well, it sounds like I just can't see how someone would listen to what you're saying and say, I find fault in this.
Other than the potential environmental impact of extracting resources, I could see how a lot of the greenies would get really upset and get their panties in a bunch about that and be very incredulous to the idea that you're going to protect the environment while you're extracting all these resources.
But if you could lay it all out and also lay out this enormous economic impact and how it would uplift impoverished communities, how it would completely change the economic landscape of the country, it just only makes sense.
That's why I'm baffled.
pierre poilievre
Well, listen, the people render their judgment, but it means I have to do a better job of processing.
joe rogan
What were the criticisms of you?
Like, what did your opponent say that, like, people, that resonated with people?
What were they trying to say?
pierre poilievre
It was funny because they all disagreed with my ideas, and they said these are all very scary ideas.
joe rogan
Scary.
pierre poilievre
And then they said, first of all, they said that I had no policies.
Then they said they're scary policies.
And then they stole my policies right before the election.
But, hey, listen, if the government that's in power now steals all my ideas and does the things I want to do, then I've won because that's why I came here.
I didn't just do it so that I could have my name on the door.
So I keep saying to the Prime Minister, steal my ideas.
joe rogan
Right.
But he doesn't want to.
pierre poilievre
Well, I won't criticize him on foreign soil.
joe rogan
I understand.
Good for you.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
I mean, we have a mutual representation.
joe rogan
That's such a Canadian thing to do.
pierre poilievre
That is a very Canadian thing to do.
joe rogan
It's so polite.
That's what I've said about Canadians.
They're so polite.
pierre poilievre
It's funny.
Your security guy was talking about the Canadian standoff of when you get to a door, you go first.
No, you go first.
You go first.
You can stay there all day.
I actually looked this up the other day.
Ontario actually has an apology act.
It's a law that defines the apology because we always say sorry in Canada.
So they wanted to clarify that sorry is not a legal admission of guilt.
So like if we get into a car accident, I say, oh, sorry, man.
It's terrible.
Your bumper doesn't mean that I'm guilty.
So it's actually in law.
joe rogan
It's so polite.
Somebody else screwed up.
You say sorry.
That's funny.
That's so Canadian.
pierre poilievre
But, you know, the great thing about Canada is we've always sorted our shit out peacefully.
Like the Protestants and Catholics tore each other's eyeballs out in Europe for like hundreds of years.
And then we came to Canada and just got along.
And that's the great thing about Canada.
It's like you can come, you know, Muslims and Jews, Christians and Protestants and Catholics, Hindus and Sikhs, they come to Canada and they just get along.
They live on the same streets.
Eventually, we all start intermarrying.
And it's a great thing about Canada.
joe rogan
Well, it really is a great melting pot.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
And like folks get to keep their cultures at the same time as blending into the Canadian identity.
Like my wife's from Venezuela.
And so, like, you know, oftentimes I like I'm in the house and there's like 16 Latinos and they're all speaking Spanish.
I have no idea what the hell's going on.
And they have this food.
It's called a jackas.
And I said, when they start cooking this stuff, I thought I said to him, did your mom just call me a jackass?
Because that's what it sounded like.
I don't speak any Spanish, but you should probably learn.
I should now.
joe rogan
They're yapping in your house.
pierre poilievre
You should know what they're planning.
It's a great.
My kids are starting to learn Spanish, so I'm going to be outnumbered.
joe rogan
Yeah, you better learn it.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah.
So what else is an issue in Canada that you would like to fix?
You always need those napkins.
We have to.
I've got an allergy I'm dealing with.
pierre poilievre
We got to toughen up our justice system.
It got way too soft.
joe rogan
What's wrong with your justice system?
pierre poilievre
Basically, bail.
I mean, we all believe in the basic principle that you're innocent until proven guilty.
But if someone's convicted of like 150 prior convictions and they're newly arrested on their latest crime, I don't think we should be releasing them onto the streets.
And so we got two lakhs on bail.
So there's now a consensus in Canada that you should have severe restrictions on repeat offenders.
Like in Vancouver, they had to arrest the same 40 guys 6,000 times in one year.
40 guys, 6,000 arrests.
So they're basically being released within hours of their latest arrest.
So we now built a bipartisan, a multi-partisan consensus to fix that.
And we're pushing to toughen the bail system and ensure that it's the repeat offenders, a tiny group.
We don't have a lot of criminals in Canada, but they do a tremendous amount of crime.
So if you take them off the street, you put them in prison, you can basically reduce the crime rate dramatically.
joe rogan
Well, we probably have more crime percentage-wise in America, but it's still a small percentage of the population that commits the crime.
But it's the same issue.
Like in New York City, it's extraordinary the amount of people that are repeat offenders.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
joe rogan
And they just let them go.
In California, no cash bail, let them go.
It's like it is bananas, and it doesn't make any sense, and it doesn't make anybody help.
I understand you want to be empathetic, and I understand these narratives that the prison system is racist, and the justice system is racist, and these people have never been given a great shake in life.
Well, if you want to fix that, start in these impoverished neighborhoods, establish community centers, establish better education, fund that, but don't let hardened criminals back on the streets when they're habitual.
If you've been arrested 40, 50 times, it doesn't seem like you're getting any better.
So whatever rehabilitation process they have going on there, that's not working.
So keep doing the same thing over and over again.
Unless you like crime, I don't understand why you would do that.
pierre poilievre
This has been, you know, it's imposed by these so-called experts.
They tell, oh, we've done all these studies that show that the soft dunk crime policies work.
But everywhere it's been tried, it's been an absolute disaster anywhere in the Western world.
We have a town called Penticton.
There's one guy who the police can tell by looking at the crime rate whether he's been in jail or not.
When he comes out of jail, the crime rate for the entire town of Penticton actually goes up.
Processed Food Trap 00:15:36
joe rogan
That's so crazy.
pierre poilievre
But you just keep him in prison.
joe rogan
That seems so simple to solve.
It's like there's so many of these problems with government that it's just like rational thinking is one of one of the great interviews that I loved about you, you were eating an apple and you were talking to this guy who was being completely ridiculous.
You were asking him to define the issues that he had.
And it was so funny.
It was like, this is what happens when a rational person meets a person with empty narratives.
pierre poilievre
It was such a weird moment because.
joe rogan
You just kept eating that apple.
pierre poilievre
It was such a good apple.
unidentified
It was so good.
That's the thing.
pierre poilievre
And the thing is, I didn't even realize I was being taped.
I thought it was a print interview.
joe rogan
Oh, that's hilarious.
pierre poilievre
That's why I think I was so relaxed.
But so I'm in the most beautiful place in the world.
If you haven't been at the Okanagan, it's unbelievable.
Like, it's lakes, it's mountains, it's nice, dry weather, and there's orchards and vineyards there.
Like, you'd love it.
And so, I'm in an apple orchard, and I'm walking around just talking with people.
And my staff says, This reporter wants to do an interview, and I'm enjoying the apple.
He comes up, starts asking questions.
Nobody who was there thought this was a moment.
Like, we thought nothing of it.
We dumped the whole thing.
My staff, unbeknownst to me, was recording my whole walk.
We dumped this 15-minute video on the internet, and no one noticed it.
And like three weeks later, my phone blows up, and people say, Hey, how about that apple?
I'm like, What are they talking about?
This apple thing.
And then, you know, within three days, everybody's talking to me about this damn apple that I had almost forgotten about eating.
So it was weird to me.
joe rogan
That conversation sort of embodied this issue.
It really did.
Because you have rational thinking and empty narratives colliding while you're eating an apple.
Like, you're so casual about it.
You're actually eating an apple, which was so perfect.
I mean, you couldn't, if you planned on, like, if you had a PR team, I think you should be eating an apple.
They'd be like, ooh, I like it.
So he's casual.
pierre poilievre
He's eating fruit.
joe rogan
It's healthy.
pierre poilievre
You know, it was totally coincidence, like out of nowhere, not planned, and not even noticed.
Like I said, no one there thought this was going to be a moment.
We just like totally forgot about it.
joe rogan
Well, it made it in America.
It was viral in America.
And we were like, how come that guy's not the prime minister?
What the hell's going on?
pierre poilievre
Well, in the meantime, you can buy ambrosio apples from the South Okanagan.
I'm really plugging a lot of sales for the Canadian economy today.
joe rogan
You know what I found out about Canadian maple syrup?
pierre poilievre
What's that?
joe rogan
It is actually a superfood, and it is actually better for you than honey.
pierre poilievre
Is that right?
joe rogan
Yeah, it contains a bunch of polyphenols and a bunch of like healthy nutrients.
I always thought maple syrup was just a guilty pleasure you poured on pancakes.
pierre poilievre
No, it's a totally Canadian thing.
joe rogan
It's really good for you.
pierre poilievre
So you take it before your workout?
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
No, I just watched an Instagram video yesterday.
Somebody said it to me, and I was like, what is this?
pierre poilievre
We'll have to send you a bunch of maple syrup from Canada.
joe rogan
Oh, I've got a bunch of Canadian.
I've had a bunch of people.
pierre poilievre
We actually have a maple syrup reserve in Canada, like a reserve of excess stockpiles.
joe rogan
Like an oil reserve?
pierre poilievre
Well, we don't have an oil reserve.
This is something I want to change.
I want to have an oil reserve, but I also want to keep the maple syrup reserve because we're Canadians after all.
There's nothing more Canadian than that.
joe rogan
Well, it's so delicious.
I can't believe it's good for you.
Make sure that's true.
jamie vernon
I mean, in what way is it true?
joe rogan
Are there nutrients?
Let's put it into perplexity.
unidentified
I did it.
joe rogan
Our sponsor.
jamie vernon
I compared it versus honey.
I'll give you what it showed.
It's not saying it's better.
joe rogan
Maple syrup and honey are both sugary, but maple syrup is slightly lower in calories, glycemic index, has more minerals like manganese and calcium, while honey is a bit higher in calories, has a slightly stronger impact on blood sugar.
Well, this guy on Instagram was very convincing.
I wish I saved it.
pierre poilievre
I think it's convincing.
I think you should go with it.
joe rogan
I'm in it.
I'm done.
pierre poilievre
Stick with it.
joe rogan
It tastes better too.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, it's the best.
It's fantastic.
Put that with a little bit of Greek yogurt.
You eat your protein.
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
pierre poilievre
That's what I do.
Greek yogurt.
joe rogan
And maple syrup.
Maple trend.
Because everybody uses honey on their yogurt.
pierre poilievre
No, maple syrup from Canada.
Because if it's not from Canada, it's not the real deal.
joe rogan
Well, there's a lot of fake syrup, right?
pierre poilievre
There's a lot of junk out there.
When you go to a pancake house and they have that stuff in the little plastic cups, that's syrup crap.
Yeah, you don't want to have that manufactured crap.
joe rogan
Well, that's the case with honey as well.
I had a woman in here once that was a beekeeper, and she was explaining to us that a lot of honey is not actually honey.
They water it down with corn syrup.
pierre poilievre
There's so much shit on our food these days.
joe rogan
Yes.
pierre poilievre
I believe in eating clean.
joe rogan
100%.
Well, I mean, that was one of the primary factors for me supporting this administration was RFK Jr. in this Make America Healthy Again initiative.
Because I think, you know, I had my friend Brigham Bueller yesterday from Ways to Well On, and, you know, we hammer this many times over and over again, but people need to hear it.
We spend more money on health care and we're sicker than we've ever been before.
And we have more chronic illness and we have more money.
None of it makes any sense.
It's completely ridiculous.
And it's obvious that people are eating the wrong things.
And there was so much outrage of him implementing all these healthy choices and trying to get rid of dyes that are illegal in Canada.
Like the same cereals that the same factory sells in Canada, they sell with natural dyes.
And in America, we demand them to be more colorful so we put poison in them.
pierre poilievre
Really?
unidentified
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
What do you think are the dietary habits that are making people in the Western world sick right now?
Like is it the dyes?
Is it the sugars?
Is it the carbs?
What's getting people in?
joe rogan
There's a lot of things.
First of all, it's processed foods.
Processed foods is an enormous percentage of a lot of Americans' diets.
Things with massive amounts of preservatives in them.
And that's like if you want a general guideline, eat real food.
Eat real eggs, real vegetables, real meat, real fish.
You'll be healthier.
As soon as you start having things that can sit on a shelf forever, except things like rice and normal beans, like things that are dried, that makes sense.
They could sit there.
But if something can just sit on a shelf for a long period of time and you consume it, how is it just not rotting?
I'm sure you've seen where they've taken a McDonald's Big Mac and they've just let it sit, taken a cheeseburger in a box and the guy pulls it out like 10 years later, it looks exactly the same.
That's not food.
pierre poilievre
The bacteria didn't want to eat it.
They looked at it and they were like, I'm not eating that.
joe rogan
If bacteria doesn't eat it, if mold doesn't eat it, that's crazy.
Why are you eating it?
Like there's something in it preventing the mold from growing.
What is that?
Well, that stuff fucks with your gut bacteria.
It's terrible for your body and empty calories.
And we consume an enormous amount of processed food in this country.
And if you want to be a healthier person, eat real fruit, eat real food, eat real vegetables, eat real meat.
It's that simple.
Just that would fix 90% of our problems when it comes to people's diets.
pierre poilievre
And my wife once looked at some of the baby formula we had, and she said, she looked on it.
She said, there's no expiry date on this.
This never goes bad.
joe rogan
That's crazy.
pierre poilievre
That can't be a good thing.
joe rogan
Right.
Meanwhile, breast milk, you have to freeze, right?
pierre poilievre
Exactly.
So, and then what about on the like the fitness side?
What do you think we can do?
I mean, beyond, you've done a lot just talking about it.
With the size of your audience, you've probably got a lot of people off the couch.
But what policies do you think we could push that would get people physically active, working out, moving again?
joe rogan
Well, the real important thing is community.
The easiest way to get fit is to get around a bunch of other people that are also involved in the same endeavor.
If you have a bunch of friends that are unhappy with the way their life is, like, just go walk together.
Say, hey, guys, let's all go for a walk after dinner together.
Let's all decide, like, as a neighborhood, to go walk.
Just walk for a half an hour after your meals.
It'll lower your glycemic index.
It'll change your body.
It'll make you healthier.
You'll feel better.
It just does so much for you, just movement and activity.
And if you're involved with a group of people that are also inclined in the same direction, they're also trying to get better, trying to get fit, then you kind of, you're, you know, you feed off of your atmosphere.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
People imitate the people that are around them.
And you get support from the people that are around them.
You know, make it a little healthy competition.
You know, who can, you know, do the most exercise and who can do the most, you know, whatever it is, like whether it's a sport or whether it's a game or whether it's just something that you enjoy doing that's physically physically taxing slightly.
It doesn't have to be a crazy kettlebell workout or a jiu-jitsu class.
Just take a just take a walk.
If the world, if the United States or Canada or anybody that's got problems with their health just decided to start walking every day for 20 minutes, it'll change your life.
unidentified
Absolutely.
joe rogan
And then add things to it.
Add some body weight squats.
Add some push-ups.
Skip a little rope.
Do something.
Take a yoga class.
It'll change your life.
unidentified
Right.
Absolutely.
joe rogan
You need activity.
The human body has needs.
And when it doesn't, those needs are not met and your biological requirements aren't met, you develop anxiety, you get overweight, your muscles atrophy, your bone density decreases, you can't open up a jar anymore.
There's all these problems that can be solved with just simple movement and activity.
You don't have to become a fitness nut.
You don't have to become a gym rat.
You just do something and that alone.
And then change what you eat.
Drink more water.
Stop drinking soda.
Stop drinking so much alcohol.
You know, stop eating processed food.
If we just slowly but surely get this in people's heads, for the longest time, people didn't think there was anything wrong with eating processed food.
They didn't think there was anything wrong with they thought sugar just gave you extra calories.
That's it.
They didn't realize the catastrophic health consequences of consuming all this sugar, the increase in type 2 diabetes, all these problems that people are having, that people are having because of poor diets.
So lack of mood.
pierre poilievre
What's your theory, though, on how that happen?
Why did that happen?
What caused millions of people to shift their diets away from good, wholesome, real food towards the processed garbage?
joe rogan
Well, first of all, marketing, right?
And availability, right?
They always say the center of the grocery store is what you should avoid because the center is all the stuff that doesn't need to be refrigerated, right?
Everything on the outskirts, all the vegetables and the fruit and the meats and the milk, that's all the stuff that's healthy because it has to be refrigerated.
Because if it's not, it goes bad.
Things that can just sit on a shelf.
But things that sit on a shelf forever, those are the things that are the easiest to profit from because you don't have to worry about storage.
You don't have to worry about refrigeration when you're processing or when you're moving them and transporting them.
You know, just education is the most important thing because there's a lot of people that don't know how much their diet impacts them.
And then there's also the problems that happen in this country where the sugar industry literally bribed scientists to pass the blame on saturated fat and pretend that this was the cause of all these heart issues that people were having and all the obesity, that it was just fat.
So then people started eating all these seed oil-rich foods like mayonnaise or excuse me, like margarine and corn oil and canola oil, all this stuff.
pierre poilievre
When it's better just to have tallow or butter.
joe rogan
Yes.
It's like natural food.
Your body knows what to do with it.
pierre poilievre
Beef is like a superfood.
A nice fatty piece of beef, best thing you can eat.
joe rogan
It's so good for you.
pierre poilievre
You've got iron, you've got fat, you've got protein and creatine.
It's all packed in that one superfood.
unidentified
It is.
joe rogan
And there's a lot of people that live very healthily off a carnivore diet and that astounds people.
They don't understand it because they've been pushed into this idea.
Well, one of the things they did in America that's great is they reversed the food pyramid.
Our food pyramid was all grains at the bottom, was all wheat and grains, which is like there's nothing wrong with eating that as long as you're being smart about it.
You don't eat too much of it.
But if that's your primary diet, like guess what?
Your insulin's gonna spike.
You're gonna be hungry all the time.
You're going to get fat.
It's just not good.
It's not good to eat like that.
pierre poilievre
When I cut the carbs out and I went basically into ketosis, I felt great because instead of having all the ups and downs when my blood sugar was down, when you're in ketosis, you basically live off your fat stores.
unidentified
Yes.
pierre poilievre
You have like a consistent flow of energy whenever you need it.
And I've obviously got some here.
And so I feel lighter.
I have to sleep less now.
I don't have to sleep as much because I don't eat the big, heavy carbs.
I cheat once in a while.
But the big, heavy carbs that your body breaks down, you've got to sleep more to work through all those heavy carbs.
joe rogan
You feel it when you eat them.
I love carbs.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm Italian.
I love spaghetti.
I love pizza.
I love Italian subs.
I love them.
But I eat them sparingly.
pierre poilievre
Absolutely.
joe rogan
And when I eat them, I feel it.
I feel it.
It's amazing while you're eating it.
And then you're like, oh, you get hit with a tranquilizer dart.
It's just not good.
It's not good for you.
If I eat a steak, I feel great.
If I eat a steak, I don't feel in any way tired after I'm done.
I don't feel exhausted, like completely full.
Also, they have a high satiety rate.
Like, if you eat just steak, you're only going to eat what you need.
Like, your body knows when to stop.
But if there's mashed potatoes next to this steak and spaghetti next to this steak and bread and all these other things, you're just going to keep eating.
unidentified
Exactly.
joe rogan
And then cake and butter and ice water, or not butter, but like cake and ice cream and all this other stuff.
You're going to keep eating and you're going to consume excess calories.
pierre poilievre
But beef is really expensive now.
Like it's really hard to put a steak on your plate.
For the average guy, it's insane.
It's twice as expensive as pork in Canada right now.
joe rogan
Well, there's also this dumb narrative that cows are responsible for climate change, which is just absolutely insane.
And whoever started promoting that needs to go to jail because you've done a terrible disservice to people, especially regenerative farming, that actually sequesters carbon.
pierre poilievre
Absolutely.
joe rogan
And it's healthy for you.
pierre poilievre
You know, the farming, the ranchers in my area are fantastic.
They produce an incredible product.
North America has the smallest cattle herd since 1951 this year.
joe rogan
That's nuts.
pierre poilievre
Very small herd.
And that's why it's so hard to get beef.
joe rogan
Why is that?
pierre poilievre
I think there's been a demand spike in the last couple of years.
Beef prices were low for long, so a lot of ranchers got out of it.
They just said, I can't stay in this business losing money every year.
And then all of a sudden, prices started to go up.
And moods have changed a lot on beef, even in the last three, four years.
So now they're trying to keep up with the demand.
But I'm happy to see the ranchers doing well, but I'd sure like to see middle-class families to be able to afford to have beef again.
But my theory on one of the reasons why the marketing has shifted towards all this processed crap, and this goes back to my obsession, which is inflation, because instead of just raising the prices, they downgrade the quality of the food.
Addiction Treatment Options 00:14:59
pierre poilievre
They strip out the nutrients and they inject garbage into our food that the companies do.
That is ultimately less nutritious, but the price tag doesn't necessarily look like it's changing.
So it's one of the more insidious ways that the system is able to charge you to pass inflationary costs on without you seeing it in the price tag that's underneath the product.
joe rogan
They also engineer food to be compulsive.
Like you're more compulsively over eat.
Yeah, sure.
Especially like chips and stuff like that in America.
pierre poilievre
What country do you think does nutrition the best around the world?
joe rogan
Well, that's a good question.
Well, Japan has one of the lowest obesity rates, right?
And when you look at Japanese food, like what is it?
It's like fish and rice and vegetables.
And they don't use glyphosate, I don't think.
I think the way they process their wheat is very different than ours.
You know, we have a higher glycemic, we have higher gluten in our wheat because we have more complex glutens in our wheat, so we have higher yield.
And then on top of that, they dry all the wheat out with glyphosate at the end, which is fucking terrible for you.
pierre poilievre
Interesting.
joe rogan
And they were trying to ban that in America, but then Trump passed an executive order stopping it.
So this is one of the things that Kennedy kind of ran on: he wanted to stop the ubiquitous use of glyphosate.
unidentified
Okay.
joe rogan
And especially glyphosate, you know, used with wheat to dry it out.
So it's not used as an herbicide.
It's used to dry out the wheat at the end so that it doesn't get moldy, which is crazy.
You're spraying poison on wheat.
And most Americans, if you test them, have glyphosate in their blood.
You know, and the apologists will say, oh, but it's at safe levels.
Well, we don't even really know what that means.
You were talking about decades and decades of consuming this stuff.
That can't be good.
I mean, it literally kills plants.
It destroys gut bacteria.
It can't be good.
It would be better.
When you eat overseas, like if I eat pasta or bread in Italy, you feel better.
It doesn't kill you like it does in America.
It doesn't like, oh, you don't get that same feeling.
pierre poilievre
Interesting.
I don't want to think about glyphosate, but one of the things— Do you guys use glyphosate in Canada?
unidentified
I don't know.
pierre poilievre
I don't know anything about it.
I feel bad saying that, but I should do my homework on that one.
joe rogan
Well, we have corn that's engineered to survive glyphosate.
We have Roundup Ready corn.
So that you could spray glyphosate on the corn that kills all the other things that you don't want growing.
unidentified
Okay.
joe rogan
But how can that be good?
Like most American, like they did a test of California wines.
And what was the number?
It was like some preposterous number of California wines tested positive for glyphosate.
Like in the high 90s, I think.
pierre poilievre
Okay.
joe rogan
Which is just nuts.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, I don't know anything about glyphosate, I have to admit.
You've piqued my curiosity.
joe rogan
The problem is in America, our food system is entirely dependent on it at this point.
They want to change it, and so there's a lot of strategies.
One of them is they have these machines that use lasers, and these lasers go over a field and actually target the weeds.
So instead of spraying poison on them, they just zap these weeds and they can identify the difference between the weed and the crop.
unidentified
Really?
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
That's incredible.
joe rogan
Yeah.
jamie vernon
The wine was 10 out of 10 tested, but 10 out of 10.
I was looking at the Japanese obesity thing.
They have an interesting law that they put in place in 2008 where I believe it says workplaces have to measure people's waste of adults over 40 to find out if they're potentially overweight.
unidentified
Wow.
jamie vernon
If those people don't get fined, the companies get fined.
So they have to then provide them counseling, diet advice, exercise guidance.
unidentified
Wow.
jamie vernon
And they also use a lower BMI than we do.
It starts at 25.
It says it's because they have a higher risk in Asian populations for obesity.
joe rogan
Interesting.
I wonder why that is.
I wonder if that's because of a lot of rice consumption.
jamie vernon
Way lower, 4%, 4% to 6% compared to 42%.
joe rogan
Wow, that's crazy.
Their obesity rates are 4 to 6%, and we're 42.
42 is nuts.
42 is so crazy.
pierre poilievre
I just got to find out what the Japanese are doing.
My next stop has got to be Tokyo.
joe rogan
Yeah, well, they eat healthy food, you know, and that, but that doesn't make sense.
I mean, implementing something like that, it sounds very restrictive.
I mean, I don't want to tell a guy he can't have a gut.
Like, I have a lot of friends that are fat, and I love them to death.
I'd like them to be healthy, but I wouldn't, you know, I don't believe you should have that kind of control over people.
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
I think you should encourage healthy behavior.
I don't think you should mandate it.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, we need carrots, not sticks.
joe rogan
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
Carrots, literally.
joe rogan
Literally.
pierre poilievre
The system is like, I think of the opioid thing.
That's an incredible story, really.
joe rogan
That's a horrible story.
That's a horrible story.
And, you know, the fact that no one's going to jail for that is infuriating.
What they did and the deception that they use to pretend that that stuff is not addictive, that it's not the same as heroin, is just absolutely atrocious.
And the fact that they got away with it and that the Sackler family, just that one family, I don't know if you've ever seen the Netflix docudrama series Painkiller.
Was it called Painkiller?
pierre poilievre
They're the guys from Purdue, right?
Purdue Pharma.
I think they were Purdue Pharma, if I'm not mistaken.
joe rogan
I mean, how many lives were destroyed by that?
pierre poilievre
Well, half a million ended in the U.S.
joe rogan
Yeah, at least.
pierre poilievre
50,000 in Canada.
We lost more people in the last 10 years to opioid overdoses than we lost fighting in the Second World War.
unidentified
True.
joe rogan
God, that's so crazy.
pierre poilievre
And we, you know, these companies, I mean, it started in the States with Purdue and a number of others where they basically started lying to the system and paying, they actually paid bonuses to distributors for every overdose they caused.
They actually tracked the overdoses and then paid bonuses to distributors because that was an indicator of how successfully they were pushing the drugs onto doctors and pharmacists and the system.
unidentified
It's all clear.
pierre poilievre
It all came out in the court because there was a huge lawsuit and the companies had to pay $50 billion because of an American government lawsuit against them.
But they actually paid bonuses for overdose rates.
joe rogan
That's insane.
pierre poilievre
It's wild.
And they basically, they were very, very strategic.
They said, we're going to go to working class neighborhoods where there's huge unemployment.
So, you know, in the Rust Belt of America, where people were out of work and they obviously had some minor industrial injuries and said, you know, this will solve every ache and pain.
Take OxyContin.
And it felt great when they first started taking it.
And then it spread into Canada as well.
And then it mutated from OxyContin into fentanyl, which is 100 times more powerful than heroin.
It can stop your lungs in 15 seconds.
Just absolutely deadly.
And these companies, these dirtbag companies should be paying hundreds of billions of dollars to cover the treatment and recovery of the people whose lives have been ruined by this.
joe rogan
Well, it's just insane that they only had to pay a percentage of the amount of money that they profited.
pierre poilievre
It is insane.
They should have gone to jail.
joe rogan
They should have had to pay, first of all, give all the money back.
I mean, what you did was unbelievably evil.
pierre poilievre
Absolutely.
joe rogan
And you were allowed to profit from it, which is crazy.
pierre poilievre
For years.
joe rogan
Even the Sackler family, the amount that they got fined was a small percentage of what they actually made.
pierre poilievre
I don't know how people live with themselves when they do that.
joe rogan
They're sociopaths.
They have to be.
pierre poilievre
They basically got into the entire system, the healthcare system, the medical acumen community, and they pushed these over-prescriptions.
And then they got this crazy idea that they pushed in places like Portland and Seattle and San Francisco that the government should start giving out opioids that are safer than the ones that are on the street as an alternative to keep people from having contaminated drugs, which made the problem even worse because the addicts would sell those to kids so that they could buy the harder stuff off the street.
And it expanded it even more.
And so one of the things we're focused on, my plan, is massive treatment and recovery programs to get people off drugs.
Abstinence-based treatment is incredible.
It's very successful.
And we're saving lives now in Canada.
You get them in, you get them counseling, group therapy treatment, sweat lodges for First Nations, people's physical exercise is a big part of it.
I went to one treatment center in Saskatchewan, and they actually bought these rusted-out weights.
And they had the guys like lifting weights.
And the bureaucrats are saying, well, why are you spending money on weights?
What does that have to do with it?
And he says, well, it's been the best thing we had.
These guys started to see their biceps grow.
And they're like, I want to look like this.
And if I take drugs, I'm not going to look like this.
So it was one of the best things they did.
And then you get them into jobs and treatment.
And there's one guy that I met in BC.
He was going to kill himself.
He drove his car into a brick wall because he was so ruined by his addiction.
But he didn't die.
He didn't pull it off.
So he actually went into treatment, turned his life around, started a business.
He's got six employees.
And now he's going out on the street and like helping, you know, pulling guys off the street and bringing them in and saving their lives.
So it's actually a really hopeful ending to the story if we can get to shift all our resources over to treatment and recovery services, which is one of my big objectives.
joe rogan
Are you aware of Ibogaine?
pierre poilievre
No.
joe rogan
So former Republican governor of Texas, Rick Perry, is involved in this Ibogaine initiative here in Texas.
And one of the things that they found, you know, he works very closely with veterans.
And, you know, obviously a lot of these guys, they come back from the war, they have PTSD, they have a lot of pain, they get addicted to pills, and then they have an incredibly difficult time getting off of it.
And there's a treatment called ibogaine.
And ibogaine comes from the aboga tree.
It's like a natural psychedelic that has no recreational use whatsoever.
It's not fun.
And it's apparently a brutal 24-hour experience, but it rewires the brain, stops the pathways of addiction.
And just one Ibogaine treatment, one session, the amount of people that never go back to using those drugs is in the 80%.
pierre poilievre
Really?
joe rogan
When they do two sessions, it's in the 90s.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
It's incredible.
So they're implementing it here.
And Rick Perry, who was like a staunch anti-drug, hardline Republican guy, great guy, but realized from talking to these veterans, maybe you have to have an open mind and look at this.
We have this blanket term that we use for drugs.
And we say, oh, Ibogaine is a drug.
You don't want to take drugs.
But this psychedelic, this ibogaine, apparently it's like a 24-hour review of your life that in some way, some chemical way rewires your system and stops the pathways of addiction.
pierre poilievre
It's like a factory reset.
unidentified
Yes.
pierre poilievre
Wow.
unidentified
Yes.
pierre poilievre
That's crazy.
joe rogan
And so they're starting to implement it here in Texas.
And they're going to use the same thing.
pierre poilievre
So have they studied this?
Have they done?
And they've done it.
Is it approved like as a treatment or what?
joe rogan
Well, it's being approved here in Texas.
And they're trying to do it in other places.
And I know a friend of mine, my friend Ed Clay, he started a center down in Mexico.
And the reason why he did it was because he got hooked on pills.
He hurt his back.
He got hooked on pills.
He had to figure out how to get off of it.
And he did one Ibogaine session, got cleaned.
pierre poilievre
Really?
joe rogan
And was like, I need to educate people and help people with this.
And we start this system.
And, you know, and it's very successful.
I know multiple people that have done it, and especially veterans, that have done it and had profound changes in their life because of this.
pierre poilievre
That's amazing.
joe rogan
Yeah.
And again, there's no recreational use for this.
There's no chance of abusing it.
It's not fun.
Like to get people to do it twice is very hard.
But even doing it once, but if you do it, it's incredibly effective, much more effective than any other form of therapy.
pierre poilievre
Really?
unidentified
Yes.
Okay.
pierre poilievre
Well, I'll have to look out for that one because we need it.
We still have a challenge up in Canada.
joe rogan
I can connect you with Rick Perry.
unidentified
Okay.
joe rogan
Him and Brian Hubbard are incredible with the advocacy and the promotion of this.
What they've done is really amazing.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, we got to get people off these drugs.
And, you know, we're making some good progress in Canada.
Our biggest challenges are just the long-term aftermath of the opioid problem, like you have had down here.
But I think we can overcome it.
And we have to try some new things in order to get people off these things because when you're doing fentanyl, it's Russian roulette.
You might not have more than a day to live if you're still taking that stuff.
joe rogan
Oh, it's so dangerous.
And it's in everything.
It's in so many different street versions of pills that people think are safe.
pierre poilievre
Right.
joe rogan
Like Xanax.
There's like illegal Xanax, like street Xanax, and there's fentanyl in them.
People take it and they die.
pierre poilievre
Right, absolutely.
I've met so many mothers.
They just come up to me at my rallies and things, and they tell me the story, and they show me a picture, and you say, man, it's a beautiful child.
That child looks healthy and smart.
And she went to a party, and they were handing the shit out.
joe rogan
There's a high school kid here in town that took a street Adderall and it had fentanyl in it and he died.
pierre poilievre
Is that right?
joe rogan
Yeah, somebody sold him what he thought was Adderall.
Look, that's what killed Prince.
That's what killed Tom Petty.
pierre poilievre
Adderall?
joe rogan
No, no, fentanyl.
pierre poilievre
Fentany.
joe rogan
They got street drugs from someone.
Like, they're both in pain and they become addicted to the pills.
And then they got like a pill from a roadie.
pierre poilievre
I didn't know that.
joe rogan
And took it and died.
pierre poilievre
I didn't know that.
Petty, did he sing Last Dance?
joe rogan
Last Dance for Mary Jane.
unidentified
Right.
pierre poilievre
That's really sad.
joe rogan
Oh, he sung a bunch of amazing songs.
American Girl.
I mean, Tom Petty was a legend and died because of fentanyl.
Prince is one of the great musical genius of human history.
pierre poilievre
And fentanyl got him too.
joe rogan
He died from fentanyl.
unidentified
Unbelievable.
joe rogan
He had hip pain.
He needed a hip replacement.
His hip was blown out and he was in agony all the time.
So he started taking pills.
Fitness and Vitality 00:15:48
joe rogan
And then next thing you know, you're hooked.
I mean, I've had family members that got hooked on it.
pierre poilievre
Is that right?
Did they get through it?
joe rogan
One of them didn't.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, he hurt his back doing construction and started taking pills and now he's a waste.
pierre poilievre
That's the mess.
That's the sad thing is they're good people and they're not law-breaking people.
Often it's folks who work in physically demanding jobs.
They get an injury.
joe rogan
Exactly.
pierre poilievre
And it's easy to judge, but when you're in excruciating pain and you find something that makes it go away, it's understandable.
joe rogan
Also, if you're not educated in these subjects and you just trust the doctor, you go to a doctor and the doctor says you need pain medication, and then all of a sudden you're on it.
pierre poilievre
It's easy to see how people get locked into that and then they can't break loose.
joe rogan
Well, the pathway to physical addiction is so well known and studied.
It's very, very addictive, which is why it's so horrific that they actually promoted the fact that these things are not addictive when they were promoting them.
pierre poilievre
No, they knew exactly what they were doing.
They were absolute crooks.
And I'm hoping we get big settlements out of them the way you did down here.
And I want to put all that money into treatment and recovery, get people off these drugs and rescue them.
I think we can save these lives.
Treatment, it works.
It's tough.
Like the people who go through it, they say it was the worst experience of my life to go through that withdrawal.
But it can be done.
And you come out stronger on the other side.
joe rogan
It can be done.
And I think the most important thing is prevention and education and letting kids know, like, hey, this is not what you want to get involved with.
You want to have a happy, successful life.
This is going to stop that.
This is going to keep you from having it.
This might kill you, and it's definitely going to ruin you.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, but you're right about fitness, though, because when I was young, I hung around with a lot of people who got into a lot of trouble.
And I could have ended up there.
The reason I didn't, frankly, is sports.
So I had something else to drive me.
So it's one of the reasons why we need to get our young people active in sporting activities when they're in that age group, because if you're not giving them an outlet, then they'll end up down that scary path.
joe rogan
Oh, 100%.
And also you realize that if you want to be effective in sports, like you can't party.
pierre poilievre
Exactly.
joe rogan
It's like it'll rob you of your vitality.
It'll rob you of your performance.
pierre poilievre
No, when I played hockey and I showed up a few times, hungover, and I was just shit.
Like it was terrible.
But you learn pretty quick that you got to be on your game.
So we've got to promote more of the fitness at the youth level as well.
And is that happening here?
It's funny.
I remember when I came down here as a 16-year-old.
I haven't been here in 30 years.
We got into town and the people who were hosting us were driving us to their home.
And we saw the stadium and there's like 20,000 people.
And it was in Houston.
I said, is that the Cowboys playing?
And they said, no, no, that's a high school league.
It's like, okay, in Canada, we don't have high school leagues with 20,000 people coming out.
But the sports are so massive here.
joe rogan
So football is gigantic here.
It's a religion.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, it's incredible.
joe rogan
It's crazy.
pierre poilievre
Who do you cheer for, by the way?
joe rogan
In Texas?
unidentified
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
You personally.
joe rogan
Well, I've got into UT football.
pierre poilievre
Okay.
joe rogan
I really love going to the UT games.
It's so fun.
And they're so enthusiastic.
And they just love it.
It's like when you're a part of it, when the touchdowns get scored and everybody's cheering, it's like it's so contagious.
It's really amazing.
And it's just like the enthusiasm they have for it.
It's like, you're like, wow, like this is a great, these people love this here.
But I've been to high school football games and it's the same thing.
Like packed stadiums for high school football games.
And you're like, this is nuts, man.
These people love their sports.
pierre poilievre
We're like that for hockey in Canada.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
pierre poilievre
Serious, serious.
Like parents are very fixated.
And I think it's actually a good thing.
Some people say, oh, it's terrible.
I think it's great to have parents that are competitive because they're pushing their kids to be better and more excellent.
And even if they don't end up as NHL hockey players, it gives them that competitive ed.
And I want us to be a more competitive society.
joe rogan
Well, when I was a kid, I worked at the Boston Athletic Club.
And one of the people that I, I was a fitness instructor when I was 19.
And one of the people that I worked with was Bobby Orr.
pierre poilievre
Oh, really?
joe rogan
Yeah, Bobby Orr used to come there and train him.
We used to have to help him get on the VersaClimber machine because his body was so wrecked.
pierre poilievre
Really?
joe rogan
He had so many surgeries.
His knees were so destroyed.
He had scars all up and down his knees.
He had knee surgery back when they were just experimenting.
They didn't really know how to fix knees.
They just cut you open, screwed things back together again, then it would blow apart again.
And then you'd wind up having another surgery.
So he had many, many knee surgeries, and he could barely walk.
pierre poilievre
But he was still doing some kind of physical activity?
joe rogan
Yeah, he was playing racquetball.
pierre poilievre
How old was he at the time?
joe rogan
This was 1986, so, I mean— Jeez, that's like, what, 40 years ago?
unidentified
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
joe rogan
So he was, you know, he was probably in his 50s, 40s or 50s.
He was, but he could barely walk.
I mean, his knees didn't straighten out.
pierre poilievre
Really?
joe rogan
They were always like slightly bent and they only bent that much.
His range of motion was very small.
So you had to help him get on machines.
But Dionysus guy was a legend.
Like, you couldn't believe he was really there.
Like, he would walk into the gym and you're like, oh, my God, it's really, I was 19.
I never met a famous person.
And I was like, that's Bobby Orr.
pierre poilievre
Absolutely.
joe rogan
This is nuts.
But it also made me realize, like, boy, knee surgery is no joke.
Like this guy was like an incredible athlete, and now he can't even straighten his leg out.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, it's all temporary.
You got to take care of yourself.
unidentified
Yes.
pierre poilievre
Do you have like residual injuries from fighting back in the day?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah.
I've had three knee surgeries, two reconstructions.
pierre poilievre
Was that from Taekwondo?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And Jiu-Jitsu.
One of my ACL injuries was from Jiu-Jitsu.
pierre poilievre
And what injuries are the most common injuits?
joe rogan
Knees, backs, necks, shoulders.
Those are the big ones.
Elbows.
pierre poilievre
Is that because of the arm bars and all that stuff?
joe rogan
Yeah, not tapping.
That's a big one.
A lot of guys get hurt just because of their ego, because they don't want to tap.
pierre poilievre
And you don't strike me as the type of guy who taps very quickly.
joe rogan
Well, when I was younger, I was really stupid, and I wasn't into tapping.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
But as I got older, I got a lot smart.
Fortunately, I got a lot better, so I wasn't in a situation where I had to tap a lot.
But if I did, I did.
I just tapped.
And that's the smart thing to do.
And I would tell people, treat it like you're playing basketball.
Don't treat it like it's your life or death.
The game is life or death.
The game is if a guy gets you in an arm bar, he's essentially breaking your arm.
If he breaks your arm, he can kill you.
That's the game.
But don't treat it like that.
Treat it like you can tap and keep going.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Or you cannot tap and your arm's going to be destroyed maybe for the rest of your life.
pierre poilievre
Right.
joe rogan
And I've seen that happen with people where their forearm snaps and they have to have plates in it and then it's a chronic injury for the rest of their life.
pierre poilievre
Right.
Yeah.
No, I can imagine that.
And what about in Taekwondo?
Like, you told the story once about how you really clocked a guy.
I think it was a wheel kick or something.
joe rogan
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
And that like freaked you out.
joe rogan
That changed my whole outlook on fighting because I realized that could happen to me.
And I had knocked people out before, but I'd never knocked anybody out where they didn't get up.
Like, usually they get up and they're wobbly and they get sat down and the medics take care of them.
And after a while, they're walking around.
And this guy never got up.
And I never really got over that.
I never had the same lust for hurting people because it was just, I was young.
You know, I was 19.
And when you're 19, you think you're invincible.
Or you don't think about the consequence.
I knew I could get hurt.
I'd been hurt before.
I'd been kicked really hard and punched really hard before.
I knew I was vulnerable, but I didn't think there was going to be anything permanent.
pierre poilievre
Did the guy ever get out of the hospital?
joe rogan
I don't know.
pierre poilievre
Really?
joe rogan
I don't know what happened to him.
I don't know what happened to him.
pierre poilievre
Maybe he'll hear this show and give you a call and say that he's all right.
joe rogan
Oh, no, no.
He probably don't want to talk to me.
pierre poilievre
Well, your spinning back kick is incredible.
I saw you and GSP doing that video where you were showing him how to do the back kick.
unidentified
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
Did he ever use that in a fight?
joe rogan
Yeah, he did.
Yeah, he did.
unidentified
He landed it?
joe rogan
Yeah, he used it a lot.
It's a thing that, like, you have to almost grow up doing it.
pierre poilievre
Right.
joe rogan
You know, unless you're dealing, like, John Jones developed it later in his career.
pierre poilievre
I saw that.
joe rogan
He's a wizard.
pierre poilievre
But he kind of like started implementing it like sort of two-thirds through his career.
Did you teach him how to do that?
joe rogan
No, no, I did not.
He worked with a Taekwondo coach in Albuquerque.
unidentified
Okay.
joe rogan
And he just really worked on that one technique, specifically when he went up to heavyweight because the guys would be, first of all, less agile and mobile.
And also, it was the kind of technique where you could stop a guy with one shot.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And when your guy's smaller than most heavyweights, which John is, because he was a light heavyweight.
So he was fighting at 205 most of his career and just as a challenge decided to go up to heavyweight.
But he's so intelligent, he realized, like, I need a one shot that I could put people away.
So he spent hours and hours every week just going over the spinning back kick.
unidentified
Really?
pierre poilievre
To the body or the head?
joe rogan
Yeah, the body.
pierre poilievre
The body.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's like getting hit by a car.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
You saw it with that.
Like a wheel kick to the head is really difficult to develop.
It's like a fast twitch thing that it's almost like your body has to evolve and grow doing that to really develop the kind of speed that you could pull it off on a skilled opponent and a fast.
pierre poilievre
And the accuracy, like to try and time that all, that must be incredible.
joe rogan
I mean, there's freak athletes that could pick it up later in life.
There's some people that are just really good at everything.
They just have amazing dexterity and coordination.
But for most people, I learned it when I was a kid.
So my body matured doing those things.
My body matured kicking.
And it became a part of just my average normal movement of life.
pierre poilievre
Right.
That's amazing.
And the spinning back kick, though, is it typically a body kick you throw with that?
joe rogan
Well, you throw it.
I've thrown it to the face too, especially a jump spinning back kick to the face.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
But the.
pierre poilievre
Taikwindo, wasn't it really the Koreans that developed so they could actually kick a man off a horse in war?
Is that why the kicks are so high?
joe rogan
I don't think so.
I think it was just because they're smaller in stature and they realized that you had to have more powerful kicks.
pierre poilievre
Okay.
joe rogan
You know, like because your legs are always carrying your body around.
There's a lot more mass to your muscles and your legs and there's a lot more force you can generate with your kicks.
pierre poilievre
Did you ever see the fight between Rick Rufus and that Muay Thai guy?
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
pierre poilievre
Wasn't that incredible?
joe rogan
Yeah, that changed kickboxing.
We've showed that fight a hundred times on this podcast.
pierre poilievre
It's amazing because it was like Americans versus Thai.
joe rogan
Well, we didn't really understand leg kicks.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Because PKA karate, and I found this out later because of Benny Erkitas, who came in the podcast.
He told me that the reason why they didn't allow leg kicks in PKA karate was because of Bill Wallace.
So Bill Superfoot Wallace famously had one leg that he kicked with.
It was because his other leg hit a bad knee.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And he didn't want anybody kicking his legs.
pierre poilievre
Interesting.
joe rogan
So he promoted this idea that only have above-the-waist kicks.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And that's what we had in America.
Like, that's what Jean-Ive Terrier fought most of the time.
pierre poilievre
That's right.
He did.
He fought Rufus himself, actually.
unidentified
Yes.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
Yeah, no, that was incredible because if you looked at the art form, Rufus was so much more beautiful to watch than the Thai guy.
He came in.
He broke the guy's jaw in the first round, I think.
He hurt him.
He knocked him down a few times.
Was it once or twice?
joe rogan
He knocked him down a couple times, I believe.
But it was really good.
pierre poilievre
And the guy just kept chopping his leg, and then I think he went out in a stretcher because his leg was busted in like nine places.
joe rogan
He didn't know what to do.
He didn't understand it.
What was really interesting is his brother, Duke, became a Muay Thai world champion after that fight.
pierre poilievre
Was that the guy who was at the fight commenting after the fight?
Yes, I remember that.
joe rogan
He was saying, it doesn't take anything.
pierre poilievre
There's no scale.
Yes, I remember that.
joe rogan
Well, he was embarrassed by that later in his life because he became one of the top MMA trainers.
unidentified
Really?
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
And he took on Muay Thai.
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
Well, he became a Muay Thai world champion, and he developed Rufus Sport, which is a great gym in Milwaukee, a top gym, developed world champions like Anthony Pettis.
So he was, you know, he was a pioneer.
It was one of the guys that had to figure it out.
And, you know, he spent time in Thailand.
They all learned it.
They had to learn.
pierre poilievre
Where's the best place in Thailand to go?
Is it Phuket?
Is it Bangkok?
Like, wherever it is.
joe rogan
Oh, there's so many good places.
Thailand's the real motherland of Muay Thai, obviously.
And it's like, you know, Phuket's amazing.
Bangkok's amazing.
I mean, there's so many amazing gyms that are in Thailand.
pierre poilievre
They're tough guys.
There's whole strips in Phuket.
My wife and I were there on vacation once, and we just stumbled on this whole street.
And you could do, there was sort of American-style boxing.
There was a CrossFit type thing.
Then there was that Tiger Muay Thai and a bunch of other Muay Thai facilities.
And then there's like street vendors that were cooking meals specifically for people who are there training.
Like you could buy beautiful hard-boiled eggs and avocado and chicken strips.
And this is like high-protein just catered to the people who come from around the world to train for like five, six weeks in a clinic.
joe rogan
And there's people that do it just recreationally.
My friend Mark, he's a businessman.
He's in his 60s.
pierre poilievre
And he did it?
joe rogan
He went over to Thailand.
pierre poilievre
Did he survive?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
He trained.
He spars all the time.
I saw him the other day.
He had a black eye.
He's in his 60s.
I'm like, what are you doing, man?
pierre poilievre
So if you were starting from scratch and you wanted to be an MMA, would you do like, you go to Thailand and do like two months there and then go to Dagestan to learn how to wrestle?
That would be the best combo.
joe rogan
If you were starting out, if you were a kid, I would say wrestling.
Wrestling's number one.
That's the most important thing to learn.
Because if a guy can take you down, he could do whatever he wants to.
If he could take you down and hold you down and beat you up, if you don't know how to wrestle, you can't fight.
You need at least to learn wrestling, just to understand wrestling, take down defense.
pierre poilievre
But you found jiu-jitsu later in life, didn't you?
unidentified
Yes.
Right.
joe rogan
I didn't start jiu-jitsu until I was 29, I think.
pierre poilievre
And who do you like right now?
Who do you think is the most interesting fighter to watch these days?
joe rogan
Oh, there's so many.
It's impossible to say the most interesting.
There's a guy from Spain, Ilya Tapura.
pierre poilievre
Tapuria.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
He's what David Goggins calls uncommon amongst uncommon men.
pierre poilievre
I want some more coffee.
unidentified
Thank you.
joe rogan
I'm good.
unidentified
Thank you.
joe rogan
He's a freak.
I mean, he's just incredibly talented.
But weirdly talented.
Like his last three fights, he knocked out three all-time greats.
pierre poilievre
Holloway?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Holloway, Alexander, and Charles Oliveira.
So that's crazy.
Volkanovsky, who's like one of the greatest featherweights of all time, knocked him out, knocked out Max Holloway, another one of the greatest featherweights of all time.
And then Charles Oliveira, one of the greatest lightweights of all time.
He knocks out three guys in three fights.
There's no one as a resume like that.
pierre poilievre
And he's not like, as I understand, he was a Greco-Roman guy.
unidentified
Right.
pierre poilievre
And he became a boxer later on.
joe rogan
He's just.
pierre poilievre
How do you describe it?
How do you describe like, so I'm not knowledgeable in this area, but the way he almost looks like he has a Philly shell.
Is that a Philly shell what he does with?
Gracie Family Legacy 00:15:47
joe rogan
It's a little bit of that.
Well, he has amazing defense.
It's just amazing awareness and pattern recognition, technique.
He's a combination of all things, right?
Incredible confidence, incredible intelligence, insane discipline, work ethic, but just great training methods.
Like he does everything right, and then insane confidence.
Like his confidence is insane.
When he fought Charles Oliveira for the lightweight title, he celebrated his victory the night before.
He had a party to celebrate the night before the fight and then went out and knocked Charles out in the first round and said he was going to knock Charles out in the first round.
pierre poilievre
That's incredible.
joe rogan
One punch.
unidentified
Boom.
pierre poilievre
You know what impresses me most about him is how he got up after that kick to the head.
He took diet.
And you know who else did that was GSP?
Remember, GSP took that kick and he went down, but he recovered quickly.
And he was talking to me about how, because I said to him, like in politics, you get hit, right?
And not physically if you're lucky, but you have to be able to get up quickly and react to it.
I asked him, how did you do it?
How did you, like, how does your brain go from taking that kind of hit to getting back in the fight and turning it around?
And he said he gets two very deep breaths through the nose and then out through the mouth and get some oxygen back into your system and focus your mind.
I thought that was an incredible lesson.
joe rogan
Well, I mean, it's all in how you get kicked because you could just get knocked out.
pierre poilievre
And then it's over.
joe rogan
There's nothing you can do.
If you get shut off, you get shut off.
Certain people get shut off.
You just get kicked.
You can get kicked and it kind of glances off of you, or you can get kicked and it just slams right into the side of your neck and the lights go dark.
pierre poilievre
Right.
But if you're still able to recover and think quickly, it's incredible to have that kind of pre-programming to ready you for a moment like that.
joe rogan
Well, I mean, that's a big part of his, what I was talking about, the camp that he comes from.
I mean, Ferras the Hobby is like one of the most intelligent and one of the most brilliant trainers in the sport.
pierre poilievre
Who's this?
joe rogan
Ferasahobi.
He's the guy from Montreal.
pierre poilievre
Oh, that's a tri-star.
So he's the guy who trains your trains GSP.
Oh, GSP, okay.
unidentified
Yes.
Okay.
joe rogan
And I mean, I think that is, that's a big part of why GSP was able to recover.
Like, they prepare for everything.
pierre poilievre
Right.
joe rogan
You know, it's like there's nothing left to chance.
Like, he hires people to try to knock George out in training.
That was one of the things he did.
He would give them more money if they could knock him out.
So they would just, so he would be, like, fully prepared when he was fighting.
Like, they leave no stone uncovered.
pierre poilievre
Don't you have to like budget, though, the number of heads of people?
Yeah, 100%.
joe rogan
But he was pretty confident that George, I mean, it wasn't like he was doing this with a beginner.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
He was doing this with a world champion, one of the greatest of all time.
unidentified
Okay.
joe rogan
And he wanted George to be in danger.
You know, so George had to fight like he was going to fight inside the octagon.
pierre poilievre
Right.
joe rogan
In danger.
pierre poilievre
Because John Jones said somewhere that he had, like, every time he gets hit hard in camp, he said, like, I just, that's part of my brain budget that's been taken away.
joe rogan
Well, that's why John's so smart.
He recognizes that.
There's a lot of people that don't think that way.
John also famously won't take a fight on short notice.
pierre poilievre
Is that right?
joe rogan
He wants to be fully prepared for a fighter.
Even a guy, like when he fought Chael Sunnin, they offered him a Chal Sunnin fight on short notice, and he said no.
Like there is not a time, no disrespect to Chal.
He's a great fighter.
No, there's not a time on this life, in this earth, where Chail Sunnin is going to beat John Jones.
It's just not going to happen.
He could have taken that fight on one day's notice and still beat Chale Sunnon.
He's that much better than him.
But he still wouldn't take it.
He's like, no, I want to be fully 100% prepared.
pierre poilievre
That's smart, though.
joe rogan
Also, he hated Chail.
And so he wanted to make sure that there was not a chance that Chale could do anything to him that he would have been able to, wouldn't have been able to do if he was trained.
pierre poilievre
Do these guys hate each other?
joe rogan
Sometimes.
pierre poilievre
But most of them, do they respect, or is it depends on the fight?
joe rogan
It really depends.
Like when Ilya Tapuria fought Charles Olivera, he actually apologized to him before the fight.
He said, I'm sorry, it has to be you.
I really like you.
Kind of crazy.
pierre poilievre
He's got to be careful.
joe rogan
He's hated people, too.
He's hated people he fought too.
I mean, there's some people that just rub you the wrong way.
There's some people, their strategy is to get inside your head and fuck with you and for you to fight with emotion.
pierre poilievre
Well, he with Connor McGregor.
With McGregor, he really hated McGregor.
He almost didn't let go when the tap happened.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah, yeah.
pierre poilievre
That was something else.
Is Connor ever going to come back, do you think?
joe rogan
Only Connor knows.
I mean, if he's going to, he has to do it soon.
I mean, I think he's 30.
How old is he now?
37?
pierre poilievre
He's jacked now, eh?
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
Well, not anymore.
pierre poilievre
Oh, he came back down.
joe rogan
He was on the Mexican supplements for a while.
unidentified
Okay.
joe rogan
Because he was trying to recover from his leg break.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
So when he fought Dustin Poirier.
pierre poilievre
I remember that.
joe rogan
He got on some stuff to try to recover for that.
I don't know what he got on, but clearly it helped.
He got huge.
He got super jacked.
The problem with getting super jacked like that is then you get addicted to what got you super jacked.
Because if you're on steroids, you feel like Superman.
You feel like you could just run through walls, and then you get off of it, and now your endocrine system has to kind of catch up to the fact that you've been giving it exogenous testosterone for all these months.
And so that takes a long time for you to get back to a normal, healthy level.
So you feel like shit.
It's hard for these guys to get off of steroids.
pierre poilievre
Right, I can imagine you get addicted to being in the front.
I've never done it.
I don't plan on it.
joe rogan
How old is he?
unidentified
37.
joe rogan
37.
Almost 38.
pierre poilievre
That's getting up there.
Who's the oldest fighter that's ever been in the octagon?
Like, who's a serious competitor?
joe rogan
Probably Randy Couture.
I think Randy won the world title, the world heavyweight title in his 40s.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
Yeah.
But Randy didn't even start his mixed martial arts career.
I think I was there at his first fight in 1997.
And I think he was 34 or 35 before he ever had an MMA fight.
He was just an elite wrestler who made his way into MMA because there's no real professional outlet for actual amateur wrestling.
pierre poilievre
Did you ever interact with the Gracies?
Because I remember way back in, I remember MMA or UFC 2.
It was the second one.
That was when it really kicked me.
Because the first one was a little bit strange.
That big fat guy whose tooth went flying out.
But number two was the one with Shamrock and Gracie and Dan Severn.
Was he in number two?
Dan Severn, the wrestler?
joe rogan
I think he was later.
pierre poilievre
There might have been three or four.
But that was kind of the first generation of big names.
joe rogan
Oh, Hoyce Gracie changed the world.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
He was a slow style, though, man.
Like, you had to have patience to watch him because he'd just lie on his back and wait, wait, wait.
joe rogan
Well, with Dan Severn, he did because he had to catch him in a triangle.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And he eventually tapped him, and no one even understood what was going on.
Like, why does he, he's got his legs wrapped around him?
What the hell is going on?
And then all of a sudden, Dan Severn's tapping out.
You're like, this is crazy.
So a man who weighed literally 100 pounds more than him or close to it.
pierre poilievre
Right.
joe rogan
On top of him, and Hoyce beat him.
pierre poilievre
Well, Dan Severn didn't appear to have any finishing moves.
Like, he's thinking, I got you on your back.
I've pinned you.
I've won the wrestling match.
joe rogan
He would kind of give you little noogies, nickel sandwiches.
pierre poilievre
But then, of course, eventually that anaconda comes in and either chokes you out or takes your arm.
joe rogan
Well, no one understood jiu-jitsu until Hoyce came around.
pierre poilievre
And he was his dad, wasn't it?
His dad that introduced it to the family?
joe rogan
His dad and his uncle.
So it was Carlos Gracie and Elio Gracie, who are the real founders of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
And then Carlson Gracie.
And those guys were the pioneers.
And they were having no rules fights in the 1930s and 40s.
unidentified
Wow.
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
And did they bring it over from Japan?
joe rogan
Maeda brought it over from Japan, and they taught the Gracies.
And then, you know, Elio Gracie famously had a match with Kimura, who was a Japanese judoka who broke Elio's arm with a Kimura.
And that's how that technique, that's why it's called a Kimura.
Yeah, in catch wrestling, they call it a double wrist lock.
pierre poilievre
Okay.
joe rogan
But we call it a Kimura because Kimura broke Elio Gracie's arm with this.
Elio just refused to tap and it's like, ah!
And eventually it snapped his arm.
pierre poilievre
Wow, that's incredible.
joe rogan
They're having these long no rules fights in Brazil long before anybody had any idea what MMA was in America.
And then Hoyce's brother, Hickson, who was the best out of all of them, Hickson was fighting people when he was 18 in like these big arenas in Brazil.
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
Unbelievable.
And then they, then I guess Dana White brought it in with UFC.
joe rogan
No, it wasn't Dana.
It was there.
There was another organization before Zoofa owned the UFC.
And this other organization, they started it with Hori and Gracie.
So Hori and Gracie was the guy who founded the UFC.
pierre poilievre
Okay.
joe rogan
And originally they were talking about putting like a moat around the cage and having crocodiles in it and shit.
They wanted it to be like completely insane.
Because what it was for Horian, Horian's a brilliant man.
And for him, what he wanted was to promote jiu-jitsu.
And he's like, this is going to be the best way to open up schools all over the country and to show this art that my father had created.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
So they had really taken some of the ground techniques of judo and really refined them to a razor-sharp edge.
And also, one of the things that helped a lot was that Elio was a small man.
He was only like 145 pounds.
And so he had to use only technique and leverage.
He couldn't rely on brute strength.
And so it was one of the best sort of advertisements is to have Hoyce, who was also fairly small.
He was only 175 pounds, beat all these big, giant, muscle-bound guys with pure technique because they didn't understand what he was doing.
And he was like, this is going to be brilliant.
This is going to, and it worked.
I mean, the name Gracie and Jiu-Jitsu are synonymous.
pierre poilievre
It's everywhere now.
Like, we even have them in Canada where these schools will have the Gracie name.
And obviously, they have no attachment to Gracies.
The Brazilian Gracies, but everybody wants to learn the Gracie style.
joe rogan
Well, they probably do have Gracie Baja, which is a huge affiliate of gyms.
They're all over the country, the world.
They're everywhere.
pierre poilievre
Are they good?
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
joe rogan
Oh, there's like, it's very difficult to have a bad jiu-jitsu gym today.
pierre poilievre
Why is that?
Because they're so competitive.
joe rogan
It's too competitive.
unidentified
Okay.
joe rogan
There's too many good people.
There's too many good gyms.
Like in Austin alone, Austin alone has like 10 amazing jiu-jitsu schools.
pierre poilievre
Is that right?
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
pierre poilievre
Do you go, do you go and roll quite often?
joe rogan
There's a place right up the street.
10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu, which is the school that I started with in California.
Well, I started with the Macha.
Well, I actually started with Hicks and Gracie.
I started with Hicks and Gracie, and then I went to Carlson Gracie.
And then I, and that was just because I didn't know there was any difference in the Gracies, and Carlson Gracie was closer to my house.
I was like, oh, I'll go to this Gracie place.
It's closer.
This is when I was a white belt.
I didn't know anything.
And then when they closed, when that gym closed, then I went to Jean-Jacques Machado's.
And so I started training there in 1998.
And that was in the Valley in California.
But then one of Jean-Jacques' black belts, my best friend, Eddie Bravo, he started 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu.
And then I trained there as well.
pierre poilievre
Okay.
And in Canada, we see a lot of places where they do Muay Thai and Jiu-Jitsu.
So you get your striking and your grappling all in one.
joe rogan
10th Planet here has a Muay Thai program.
pierre poilievre
Oh, is that right?
unidentified
So that's a lot.
joe rogan
A lot of those gyms have that.
pierre poilievre
And you went to your first, as a commentator, you did it like for free, didn't you?
joe rogan
No, no, I got paid in the early days in the 90s in 1997, but it wasn't much.
I was losing money.
But when the UFC was purchased by Zufa in 2001, that was when I was on Fear Factor.
And I met Dana White and I became friends with him.
And he asked me as a favor to do commentary on this one show that they had, UFC 37.5.
It was on Fox Sports, whatever it was.
There was a cable channel.
So it was best damn sports show, period.
Had this UFC show.
And he said, Would you do me a favor and just do commentary on this one event?
pierre poilievre
Right.
joe rogan
And I said, Okay, I'll do it for this one.
And he's like, I want you to do it again.
And then I was like, okay.
So I was like, I just wanted to do it for fun.
Like for me, it's like, I like going to the fights and I like going with my friends and having a good time.
And I did like the first 15 of them for free.
I just, I knew they were hemorrhaging money and I didn't need any money.
pierre poilievre
But you loved it.
You loved being there.
It was like a kid in a candy store.
joe rogan
Well, also, I was very happy to try to promote this thing because for me, it was the ultimate expression of martial arts.
Like, we need to find out what's the best style.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And I had kind of, I had been so engrossed in that world in Japan with Pride and all these other organizations that they had over there.
pierre poilievre
It's like, what happens if an alligator fights with a tiger?
What happens if a lion fights with a bear?
We've got to match them up and find out.
joe rogan
Well, it's humans versus humans.
So it's just style.
It's like tie versus you didn't want to waste your time doing something that didn't work.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And there was a lot of people that wasted their time doing stuff that didn't work.
And we didn't really know what that was until the UFC came along.
And then we're like, oh.
And now the evolution of martial arts from 1993 when the UFC started to 2026, in those years, martial arts have evolved more than they have in the last 30,000 years.
pierre poilievre
Right.
Well, it's like the gap between theory and practice.
joe rogan
Yes.
pierre poilievre
And like Bruce Lee, when he started with Wing Chung, but he said that a lot of it was just ornamental, and he called it dry land swimming.
Because you wouldn't actually do that in a fight.
And then he got into a lot of contention with the scholars of the art form.
It's a very beautiful art form, Wing Chung, but I don't know if it, I can't imagine it works that well.
joe rogan
Well, it is.
Wing Chung is effective.
There's a lot of things that you can do.
pierre poilievre
You get into a fist fight between a Muay Thai guy and a Wing Chung guy.
Who would come out of it?
joe rogan
The Muay Thai guy.
But it doesn't mean that Wing Chung's not effective, and you could use Wing Chung in Muay Thai or in an MMA fight.
But you have to know everything.
That's the reality of it.
It's like Taekwondo.
Taekwondo is not effective by itself in an MMA fight.
But if you know MMA and you know Taekwondo, then you could do like what Edson Barboza did to Terry Edam and knock him out with a wheel kick in spectacular fashion.
Like learning.
pierre poilievre
Someone has like a big blend, right?
Like you get some Muay Thai, some karate, some.
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
That's what MMA is, mixed martial arts.
I mean, it's like you take all, and that's Bruce Lee's philosophy, absorb what's useful.
I mean, he was the real first mixed martial artist.
And when it was very dangerous to do that because people hated him.
I mean, they would attack him.
He would have to have fights with people because they thought that he was disrespecting their art.
pierre poilievre
Right.
joe rogan
And he combined Western boxing and wrestling.
He learned judo from Gene LaBelle.
He learned things from everybody.
He learned karate, Savat.
He learned all these different martial arts and was absorbing what's useful and putting his own.
So Jeet Kune Do, his style, was really the first mixed martial arts style.
pierre poilievre
Is that right?
joe rogan
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
Do people use it anymore?
joe rogan
Well, yeah, there's Jeet Kundo schools, sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mixed Martial Arts Styles 00:04:09
joe rogan
I mean, a lot of what Krav Maga is, the Israeli martial art, is like kind of a combination of things along the same lines of the way Bruce Lee did it.
pierre poilievre
Is Krav McGraw a good, effective martial arts system?
joe rogan
Every martial arts system is effective if you have a great instructor.
pierre poilievre
Okay.
joe rogan
Right.
But on their own, like the best styles are the really strong styles like jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai wrestling.
Those are the best styles, Western boxing.
Those are the best styles on their own.
But what Krav Maga is, is a combination of all those styles.
And so if you have a great instructor in Krav Maga, yeah, you'll learn great Muay Thai, you'll learn great jiu-jitsu.
It's essentially mixed martial arts, but with a lot of emphasis on real-world applications, street fights, you know, dirty stuff like eye gouging, you know, poking people in the eye, kicking them in the nuts.
pierre poilievre
Yikes.
joe rogan
Stuff that works.
But that's what you like.
pierre poilievre
Well, if you're not going to be able to do that.
joe rogan
You see it in an MMA fight all the time.
A guy gets poked in the eye.
He's like, hey, hang on.
And he has to stop.
pierre poilievre
He's not against rules.
joe rogan
He's getting punched is against rules.
So this guy's getting punched and kicked.
And look, Tom Aspinall, he was in the heavyweight title fight and he got eye-poked in the first round.
He's had to have two surgeries since then on his eyes and he hasn't been able to fight.
They had to stop the fight in the first round from an eye poke.
pierre poilievre
Oh my God.
joe rogan
It's very effective.
But in Krav Maga, they're like, go for the eyes.
Bang.
Because in a real world fight for your life scenario, you're in a war technology.
pierre poilievre
I mean, it's for the Israeli military, I think.
joe rogan
Exactly.
pierre poilievre
So they have to prepare for unusual situations where you're trying to survive in a situation where your arm has been, your weapon has been removed and you're just trying to fight for your life.
joe rogan
Exactly.
Well, just in your in a situation with hand-to-hand combat, you need to learn how you need to know every if a guy takes you down, you can't be lost.
Oh, we have to get back up so I can fight.
No, you have to be able to fight on the ground, and that's the idea of it.
Like, incorporate jiu-jitsu, incorporate leg kicks, Muay Thai, Western boxing, even Jeet Kune Do techniques, even Wing Chung techniques.
pierre poilievre
Really?
joe rogan
There's a lot of hand trapping and things in Wing Chong that can be very cool what they do with that wooden wooden dummy.
unidentified
Uh-huh.
pierre poilievre
It looks really good.
Exactly.
joe rogan
I've never really got into that, but if you do get into that, you'll learn blocking techniques and you'll learn.
pierre poilievre
Does that actually work?
joe rogan
Yeah, sure.
pierre poilievre
Okay.
joe rogan
But they'll work if you know the other stuff.
They won't work if a guy just shoots a double on you and takes you down and starts pounding you.
You don't know what to do when you're on the bottom.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
You have to know how to, and this is what really MMA has taught the world.
It's like you have to be able to defend yourself everywhere.
Standing up, on the ground.
You have to be effective in all the realms.
pierre poilievre
Right.
joe rogan
But still, we have a lot of people that are pure specialists that do really well in mixed martial arts because they're so good in one area.
Like Alex Pereira, who was the middleweight champion, light heavyweight champion, and now he's going up to heavyweight and he's going to be fighting at the White House card.
Alex Pereira is one of the greatest kickboxers of all time.
He's a two-division world champion and kickboxer.
But his style is all kickboxing, but he just developed takedown defense.
pierre poilievre
He can do it all.
joe rogan
He can do it all.
But he doesn't submit anybody.
If you're fighting him, you're going to get it's going to be a stand-up fight.
Unless you could take him down, he's not going to try to take you down.
He's going to try to fuck you up.
He's going to try to knock you into another dimension.
pierre poilievre
Thanks for the warning.
I'll try to avoid the guy fighting him on the street.
The funniest thing I ever saw was there's this video of John Jones on the street somewhere, and he bumped into, he was talking and he leaned on some guy's motorcycle.
I think he might have been in Asia or something.
The guy had no idea who he was and he started screaming at him.
unidentified
Oh, no.
pierre poilievre
And John said, I'm very, very sorry.
And he turned around, he ran away like he was terrified.
And it was obviously he wasn't in any danger, but it was so hilarious that this guy had no idea who he was making a fight with.
joe rogan
That's hilarious.
The guy has no idea.
His life flashed before his eyes.
pierre poilievre
But he took it well because he was like, you know, I don't have anything to prove.
joe rogan
Yeah, John's not the type of guy that would do anything.
I mean, also, what a lawsuit.
Legal Marijuana Era 00:04:13
pierre poilievre
Oh, yeah.
Your hands are weapons.
joe rogan
I mean, his whole body's a weapon.
But most of those guys are really nice guys in real life.
pierre poilievre
Is that right?
joe rogan
Yeah, because they get all their aggression out.
They don't have anything to prove.
They're not the type of person.
They know what they can do.
They don't have to prove it to anybody.
pierre poilievre
Well, you should come to Winnipeg.
They have a fight coming up.
I think it's in April.
It's in April.
joe rogan
A UFC in Winnipeg?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I've avoided UFCs in Canada.
pierre poilievre
Well, come on up.
joe rogan
I've avoided it just because of the government, just because of what was going on as a protest.
I was like, this is so fucked.
Well, we'll come back up and if you win, I'll go up there.
How about that?
pierre poilievre
We should get you up before.
joe rogan
Before I become Prime Minister, I promise I'll do all the UFC events that they have in Canada.
pierre poilievre
We need you up in Canada to come do one of your comedy shows, and it would be great for you.
joe rogan
I still love going up there.
I used to love going to Massey Hall.
unidentified
Yeah.
pierre poilievre
To Toronto?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I love performing there.
I did.
pierre poilievre
You used to do Montreal.
And how old were you when you were in Montreal?
joe rogan
Oh, I started.
I think the first time I was up there, I was like 25.
pierre poilievre
Such a beautiful city, eh?
joe rogan
Yeah, it's gorgeous there.
Oh, I love that.
pierre poilievre
Quebec is lovely.
joe rogan
It's amazing.
pierre poilievre
It's a beautiful province.
joe rogan
Amazing food.
Shout out to Joe Beef, one of my favorite restaurants in the world that's in Montreal.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, Montreal is a great place.
And you should come out to the prairies, too.
Go to the Calgary Stampede.
joe rogan
I've heard that's awesome.
pierre poilievre
Oh, it's amazing.
joe rogan
I've been to Edmonton.
I've been to Alberta.
pierre poilievre
Yeah.
joe rogan
I performed in Edmonton a few times.
And I've hunted in Alberta.
pierre poilievre
Where?
joe rogan
Well, my friends John and Jen Rivet, They have a guide.
I mean, they guide people up in northern Alberta.
It's all like, you know, black bear hunting.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
So it's like.
pierre poilievre
There's a lot of great hunting.
I don't hunt myself, but there's a ton of great hunting and a lot of hunters in Alberta.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
Well, there's talk about Alberta separating.
pierre poilievre
That won't happen.
joe rogan
What was that about?
pierre poilievre
It won't happen.
Some people are frustrated, but they, you know, there's some legitimate frustrations.
But at the end of the day, Canada's going to be united.
And Albertans, I'm born and raised in Alberta, and Albertans are seriously patriotic.
joe rogan
Very patriotic.
pierre poilievre
Yeah, they're great people, hardworking.
joe rogan
Some of the nicest people you ever heard.
pierre poilievre
They are great people.
joe rogan
Hardy.
pierre poilievre
They are a hardy people.
joe rogan
It's cold up there.
It is survive.
pierre poilievre
Exactly.
You've got to be tough to survive the cold in Canada, carve a country like we have out of that cold weather on that big open land.
But people just keep on going.
And Alberta's got a real kind of rugged individualism.
And people love their agriculture.
There's great ranches in Alberta, beautiful grasslands in Saskatchewan.
joe rogan
Doesn't Brock Lesnar have a place up there?
pierre poilievre
I didn't know that.
joe rogan
I think Brock Lesnar bought land in Alberta.
pierre poilievre
Really?
joe rogan
I don't think he owns a ranch up there.
pierre poilievre
Actually, I had heard that from somebody.
I've never seen him.
joe rogan
He fell in love with it.
Well, he's a big hunter as well.
I think he fell in love with it up there because it's just so magnificent.
It's so gorgeous.
pierre poilievre
It's a great country.
joe rogan
And the woods are so dense and beautiful.
And you've got wolves and bears and moose and everything up there.
It's an amazing country.
pierre poilievre
The Canadian Rockies are spectacular as well.
They're a worldwide attraction.
You go to Lake Louise, it looks like a tropical lake because it's all this runoff from the mountain melt.
And you'd think you were in the tropics because it's this turquoise green.
That's where I grew up.
I love Calgary.
I love southern Alberta.
That's really my home.
And so you got to come to the Stampede.
Greatest outdoor show on earth.
A lot of Texans go up for the Stampede?
Because it's a rodeo.
It's a huge rodeo.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
People don't think Cowboy Canada.
They don't think of that.
But yeah.
pierre poilievre
Calgary, they've got some serious cowboy there.
joe rogan
No, they really do.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Look, I love Canada.
pierre poilievre
If you did your comedy show in Calgary, you'd get a massive turnout.
It would be great.
Think it over it.
joe rogan
Well, I was supposed to be up there before COVID.
I was supposed to do a show up there for 420 for April 20th.
I was going to do it in Vancouver.
pierre poilievre
That's another great city.
joe rogan
Every year I would do these 420 shows, like these, you know, 420 is the marijuana number.
And Canada, now you guys have legal marijuana, too.
pierre poilievre
I've been legal for 10 years.
Leadership Humility 00:03:31
joe rogan
Which they should have in America.
It's so ridiculous.
They just recently decided to make it Schedule 3.
pierre poilievre
Is it state by state?
joe rogan
Yes.
It's legal in a lot of states, but it's still not legal federally.
It's goofy.
If alcohol is legal, marijuana is far safer.
It should be legal.
It's ridiculous.
It's also a personal freedom thing.
Leave people alone.
It's like, no one's robbing banks, smoking weed, fucking killing their neighbors.
It's crazy.
pierre poilievre
That's a personal personal choice.
joe rogan
It's not heroin.
It's not opiates.
It's not like maybe you shouldn't do it if you have mental health problems, right?
But there's a lot of people that just like take a pot gummy and go to bed and it makes them sleep better.
Like leave them alone.
Like leave people alone.
Let people have a glass of whiskey.
Let people have a glass of wine with dinner.
Leave them alone.
Like stop coming up with laws where you can impose your values and your morals and your judgments on other people.
Let them have make their own personal look.
If you want to eat a fucking cheeseburger, eat a cheeseburger.
You know, if you want to go and have five Big Macs, you should be able to.
I don't think you should do it, but I don't think there should be a law stopping you.
And I think that should apply to a lot of things in life, and we'd be a lot better off.
pierre poilievre
Well, the bottom line is this: if you cannot trust a man to govern himself, how can you trust him to govern for others?
Like, if you think that human nature is so flawed that people cannot make decisions for themselves, then how could you possibly trust human nature to make decisions for other people, to impose decisions on their lives?
And who watches the watchman?
We're constantly told we need to be kind of guided by these people from ivory towers.
But who are these angels anyway?
They're just human beings like everyone else.
So when you give them more power and more, you give them the power to impose their will on people, then that ultimately gets abused.
unidentified
Yes.
pierre poilievre
So even, you're right, even when somebody is doing something that I don't agree with, and I would think it would be better for all of us if they didn't do it, the mal that is done by giving me the power to impose my decision-making on them is worse than the benefit of trying to direct them towards a better decision.
joe rogan
Well said.
pierre poilievre
That's my philosophy.
joe rogan
That's why I like you.
pierre poilievre
Well, that's right.
joe rogan
You make a lot of sense.
pierre poilievre
It's pretty simple.
I think all the best things in life are simple.
We overcomplicate things.
Government is way too complicated.
I think we need to get back to the simplicity.
The greatest speech in the English language was Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, 271 words.
Einstein compressed mass and energy into a five-character equation.
Bruce Lee was an advocate of simplicity.
Simplicity is a virtue.
And I think we have to get back to simplicity, especially in government.
Simpler, clearer, easier to manage.
That's the kind of the philosophical take I pursue.
joe rogan
Well, I appreciate that.
And I think that philosophy and that perspective from a leader is what we need in this world.
pierre poilievre
Well, I think leaders have to have humility because the problem is that if you are an egomaniac and you're in power anywhere in the world, then you're going to want to just continually impose new rules and laws to make yourself bigger.
Whereas if you believe in freedom, then you have to be able to say to yourself, I don't know better for this other person.
He knows better for him.
And it's hard, but politicians have to think that you have to trust the people.
Building Lasting Impact 00:01:52
pierre poilievre
But nobody wants to have he left people alone on their gravestone.
They want to think, oh, he built this.
He imposed that.
He made this grand initiative that he imposed on the people in order to have a legacy.
But my legacy is just to let other people build their legacies in their own lives.
joe rogan
I think the idea of forging a legacy based on controlling people and imposing your will is ludicrous.
pierre poilievre
Exactly.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
But the problem is history is littered with people like that.
pierre poilievre
Absolutely.
joe rogan
Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan.
There's so many people that imposed their will and left a legacy.
But is that good?
pierre poilievre
I don't think it is.
joe rogan
It's also they're dead.
This is it doesn't matter.
unidentified
It doesn't matter.
pierre poilievre
Nobody walked by one of those magnificent tombs in Petra and said, boy, I'd really like to be inside there.
unidentified
Exactly.
joe rogan
What is happening while you're alive is what's really significant and the most impactful thing.
Like, do well.
Do good for the people.
And I think your message resonates with me.
unidentified
Thank you.
joe rogan
I think if I was a Canadian, I would vote for you 100%.
pierre poilievre
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
Well, it's a privilege to do this work, and I consider it very humbling.
And I'm very proud to be Canadian and to take the message of Canada here to our American friends.
joe rogan
Well, I'm glad you're here doing that.
And I think this is going to have a big impact.
unidentified
Absolutely.
joe rogan
I really hope it moves the needle up in Canada.
pierre poilievre
Absolutely.
And down here, we've got to get these tariffs gone.
Get the tariffs gone.
joe rogan
Well, let's work it out.
Work it out.
And if you win, I'm coming up there, I promise.
pierre poilievre
Well, we're going to try to get you up there earlier.
I'm going to keep working on you.
And you look at that maple leaf on your new kettlebell every day.
Eventually, we're going to work subliminally into your subconscious and get you to.
joe rogan
Like I said, you don't have to sell me on Canada.
pierre poilievre
I love Canada.
joe rogan
And I love that gift.
So, thank you so much.
unidentified
I really appreciate it.
joe rogan
Thank you for being here.
unidentified
It was awesome.
Thank you.
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