I owned a tattoo parlor in what year it was, mid-80s, and they were illegal in Indiana.
But because it was me, they said, okay, leave him alone.
Really?
I remember when they were illegal in New York.
I went to Connecticut to get my first tattoo.
Yeah, I didn't know it was illegal, but I met this guy in L.A., and he worked at Sunset, you know, where the Hyatt house is, and there was a tattoo parlor right across the street.
Anyway, he was there.
And so I brought him to Bloomington because he wanted to get out of L.A.
And guess why they closed me down?
Why?
Fucking guy was a heroin addict.
I know.
And he did this tattoo one time, and I went over.
I just went over to the shop.
I said, hey, let's do this little.
And he was all fucked up.
And it was just like, what's wrong with it?
You know, because I didn't know.
I don't know anything about heroin addict.
There wasn't a lot of heroin addicts back then.
That was a rare thing.
Now, when you think about how many people are, because of the Sackler family, think of how many people are hooked on opiates today.
I mean, it's got to be lots.
It's off the charts in comparison to what it was like in, you know, the 1980s.
I knew one guy that had a friend who did heroin.
That's it.
Well, I was at a, the first time I saw somebody do heroin was I was in college, and there was a place called Bull Island that tried to imitate Woodstock.
And me and my then-wife and my kid, my little girl, and my roommate who lived with us, we're just walking down and we see this guy shooting up.
So we just thought, well, we'll watch.
Because he was just sitting right there.
I mean, there was like 200,000 people there.
And he shot and he went out.
And I looked at the guy I was with, go, we won't be doing this.
We're not going to do this.
I had a friend who was a longshoreman, and he worked with this guy every lunchtime.
He would go and score and sit in his truck and shoot up.
And that's what he did every lunch.
He was a functional heroin addict.
And he would show up for work every day, and he did his job.
But during lunchtime, during his hour, he would do heroin and just fucking find his happy place.
And then an hour later, go back to work.
And the one shop would last all day?
I don't know.
I don't know if he did heroin.
I didn't ask if he did heroin after that as well.
I'm assuming he probably did.
But he was a functional heroin addict.
Like, guy kept a full job.
He was in the union.
And everybody knew.
This guy would go on his break, shoot up.
Last time I did drugs was 1973.
What was the reason you stopped?
Right here?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I used to like to smoke and drink whiskey.
And then I liked to fight.
Oh, that's a problem.
couldn't whip anybody but i loved the contact and the the rush of like you know starting the fight But so anyway, I was in college and my roommate and I went to this downtown bar, which we'd never been to.
And I sat at the bar, and I would start these fights.
You know, just a prick.
And I was sitting next to this big guy, and for whatever reason, I thought it was a good idea if I'd spit on him.
Oh.
One of those guys.
You know, you know those guys that get drunk?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that was me.
So I did.
And we went out back and he left me in the alley like a wet rag.
I mean, he beat the shit out of me.
Beat the shit out of me.
And I was a hippie.
I had hair down to here.
And the guy, my roommate, was driving me home in an Opento.
And I was leaning on the door like this.
I was so fucked up from getting beat up.
I mean, the oars around my face were this big.
And I was leaning on the door.
And all of a sudden, he went over a road track.
And I fell out of the car, got my hair wrapped around the jig-a-flop that holds the car.
And the guy that I'm with drunk, driving, he didn't even know I fell out of the car.
And I'm going, stop the car.
Stop.
He went, oh!
And so I got up the next morning and I looked at myself and I was unrecognizable.
I had road rash on my arms.
My knees were all fucked up.
My face was beat up from the and I just said, you know, this drug and alcohol thing is not working for you.
And so I went and got all my hair cut off.
Not as short as yours, but not much longer.
And that was it.
Well, you found your rock bottom.
Yeah.
That's what they say.
They say you need to find rock bottom.
I would never imagine that you would be the type of guy that would fuck with people at a bar and spit on somebody and start a fight.
It just you just don't seem like that at all.
Well, I grew up in a small town and there was not much to do in a small town.
You know, you would either find a girl or fight.
I figured you for the find the girl type of guy.
Well, you know, I did okay with that, but it didn't always work.
So, yeah.
Yeah, it was like, don't forget, Joe, it was like 1967, 66.
You weren't even born yet.
I was born in 1967.
Yeah, so this is like 1967.
Wow.
So, you know.
So from that time on until I turned 21, I was 21 when I quit using drugs and quit smoking, quit drinking.
Wow.
Nothing since then?
Not a drop.
That's impressive.
Not a drop.
Well, you know, I think I've thought about I think that I didn't really like it that much.
You know, as much as I thought I did.
Well, you certainly didn't like the results.
Right.
One bad result.
Well, you set you straight.
Yeah, we do you and yeah.
You were a big part of my high school experience.
It was interesting because your song sort of introduced the idea of nostalgia to me.
I don't know what that meant.
Well, when you were singing songs like Jack and Diane, it's like I was kind of realizing as I was a very young guy listening to those great songs that there's going to be a, like, this is a weird time in life, and there's going to be a time where you're going to look back on this, and it's probably one of the best times of your life, but even though it doesn't feel like it, it felt, you know, it felt confusing and weird.
And I remember thinking at the time, like, my God, like, is this as good as it gets?
You know, some people look back on this weird, confusing time of adolescence as the happiest moments of their life.
I'm like, I can't wait to get the fuck out of this time of my life.
And it's like, you know, you were singing from a position of like an everyman position of, you know, you were singing the star.
They were great fucking songs.
They had heart and it was soul to them, but it was like, it was a lot of sadness, you know?
A lot of, oh yeah, life goes on long after the thrill of living is gone.
And I was like, oh, Jesus Christ, life's going to go this is it.
This is it.
This is it.
Well, listen, I struggled with that probably like you did, or he did.
You know, there's a point in a man's life where he feels like there's got to be more to life than this.
I mean, I had huge hit records and, you know, very, lucky, very lucky.
You know, everything was just, you know, I was just lucky.
And I would go home and I would think, I'm not happy.
There's got to be more to life than this.
And then guess what happened?
I got a little bit older and I found out there's not.
And I'm good at it.
I'm good at it.
So, you know, we're only on this earth for a few fucking minutes.
Quit feeling sorry for yourself and quit being confused and accept your responsibilities and try to, you know, maintain some humility, which was a million miles away from me spitting on people.
Right.
In a bar.
What didn't you enjoy about being this enormous rock star in the early days of MTV?
I mean, you were a rock star when it became a totally different thing because it was like this visual thing that was in everyone's household now.
It wasn't as simple as, no, you were on the tonight show and you would sing this musical segment and people would have to go see you live to go see you perform.
Well, I know you got to see guys in rock bands were their album covers.
You know, you would go to a record store and file through the records and if you liked the way a band looked, you would buy the record.
At least I would.
I would too.
And so I forgot the question.
Well, I was just saying, like, what was it, what was not good about that?
I mean, what was that experience like being this enormous rock star that left you feeling like you wanted more, that you weren't happy?
I think that for me, I think when that happens, it's the age you're at.
And I think it's a chemical imbalance in our brain.
And as we grow older, it kind of finds its way.
And like I said, I just woke up one day and just went, hey, this is all there is, except it.
And try to show some humility and try to be good at it.
And I never thought about it again.
That's interesting.
Well, you're a snap out of it type of guy, right?
You snapped out of drugs and alcohol.
You snapped out of feeling sorry for yourself.
Yeah.
That's a good trait to have.
Well, I'm very lucky that – listen, Joe.
You're looking at the luckiest fucking guy you've ever interviewed.
I don't give a shit who you've interviewed.
I'm the luckiest guy you know.
I was born with spina bifida.
Do you know what that is?
I don't.
That's where you have a hole in your spine and the fluid and all of your nerve endings, like on me.
Look at the back of my neck.
Oh, wow.
You see that scar.
Oh, that's crazy.
Yeah.
That scar is huge.
That's 1951.
In 1951, you got that operation?
I was born with, you're born with spina bifida.
So what do they do to, what was that operation exactly?
Well, they had to, well, here's the story.
I was, my parents are only 20 years older than me.
So I was born deformed.
And my parents didn't know what the fuck to do.
You know, what are we going to do with this kid?
So they just went like that to my grandmother here.
You take him.
And so I was in the hospital, and there were four other kids.
And there was a young doctor named Heinberger who was just a young neurosurgeon.
Don't forget, neurosurgery in 1951 was in its—so he just said, well, we've got to try to do something with these kids.
And so he operated on all of us.
I was the only one that lived.
Oh, boy.
You know, the fact that, and he charged my parents a dollar for the, you know, because it was an experiment.
I was like a guinea pig.
And these other poor kids who had the same thing I did, they all died within, you know, six months.
I remember seeing one girl that made it till she was 14 and she was in a wheelchair.
I would see her at basketball games and my parents would go, that's the other little girl that had the same operation you did.
And then she died.
So my whole life has been full of luck.
I mean, I'm not supposed to be.
What did they do during the operation?
What is the procedure?
Well, they have to cut your head off for starters.
You know, they had to cut my head and lay it open to get to my spine.
And then they would push each individual nerve ending back down into my spine, drain the fluid off, sew it back up, and make sure that everything was working.
And they told my parents, you know, look, here he is.
He's probably going to die, get encephalitis, and his head's going to fill up with water.
We don't anticipate him living much more than six or seven months.
And I was, fuck, I think I was in fifth grade.
I didn't even know I'd had the operation, and some kid in my class said, hey, Mallenkamp, what's that big scar on the back of your neck?
Don't forget.
Now we're talking, you know, 1957, 58, 60, maybe.
I didn't even know there was a scar back there.
You know.
Wow.
Went like I was going.
And my parents never told me.
So I came home and I asked my old man, I said, Dad, what's with the scar in the back of my neck?
And he goes, oh, don't worry about it.
You had an operation when you were born.
So I did it.
I played football.
I ran track.
I fought.
You know, I did everything that every other kid did without a thought of that.
Not until I got older and I started having panic disorder that I thought maybe the panic disorder was from that operation.
How old when you started having panic disorder?
I was just out of college.
I couldn't leave the house.
I became what they call, what's that called?
Agoraphobia?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I had agoraphobia for about a year and a half.
And then I got a record deal and I had to leave the house.
I mean, I was married in high school.
I got married in high school.
And the girl I was married to was five years older than me.
How old were you?
18.
18?
Yeah.
You had a kid, right?
You had a kid real young.
Yeah.
She's 50-something now.
Wow.
I have three girls and two boys.
Weren't you a grandfather when you were in your 30s?
Maybe.
I think you were, right?
Yeah.
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Because that oldest daughter of mine got married when she was like 19.
Wow.
Not much to do in a small town, man.
Yeah.
Not much to do.
So that's the spinam bifida.
But it never bothered you again other than the panic.
Were you performing when you were having the panic stuff?
Oh, man.
I have been on stage in front of like 20,000 people and had a panic attack.
Oui.
Yeah, it's like, have you ever had one?
No.
You're lucky.
Because you feel like I can't breathe.
My chest hurts.
I've seen it.
I've seen people have them.
It's horrific.
You can't do anything for them.
You're like, you think they're having a heart attack?
You think they're dying?
Yeah.
Well, I've been on stage and I remember having to plant my feet and just power through, you know, in front of 20,000 people.
And it was awful.
Did it pass while you were on stage?
I don't know if it did.
I just remember it happening numerous times.
And then guess what happened?
I had a fucking real heart attack on stage at Jones Beach, like 30 years later.
Oh, Jesus.
I know.
So, but you know what that heart attack led to?
I just married Elaine Erwin and we had two little boys and I got to stay home because I said, fuck it, I'm going to die.
I didn't know about heart disease.
I'm going to die.
So I want to spend the last couple years of my life with my boys who are little teeny guys, which I want to tell you a story about them and you.
And so I got to actually kind of not be in the music business, which pleased me.
How old were you when you had your heart attack?
42.
Oh, geez.
And so I got to stay home.
I stayed home for three and a half years.
Elaine didn't model.
And we just, you know, we had TV shows we watched, which is unheard of in my life.
You know, like, hey, it's Thursday night.
Let's watch.
Let's watch this, you know, which is where you come in.
So the boys were little, and they loved your show.
They loved your fucking show.
And I was kind of like, I don't know if the kids should be watching this, you know.
You're talking about Fear Factor?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't know what the kids should be watching.
So I made a deal with them.
All right, you guys, you can watch this show, but you have to watch 60 Minutes too.
So if you're going to watch this, then you've got to watch 60 Minutes.
And they obliged, which surprised the hell out of me.
But it was like, Dad, 60 Minutes on.
Dad, Fear Factor's on.
I know.
So we would watch it together.
I mean, how lucky is that?
Well, it sounds like it was a blessing in disguise.
Yeah.
Well, that's.
Yeah.
It gave you a pause.
You know what luck is?
What?
Thinking you're lucky.
Thinking you're lucky.
Yeah.
What you think about yourself all comes true.
I wrote it in a song once.
What you think about yourself will come true.
So if you call yourself a dumbass, guess what?
You do it enough and your brain starts to believe in it.
What caused your heart attack at such a young age?
Me being stupid.
I would go in to get a physical and they'd go, John, your cholesterol is off the charts.
It's at 400.
And I would go, Am I all right now?
And they'd go, well, yeah, you're all right now.
Good.
Because I didn't want to get on medicine.
You know, and statin drugs had just become, just were invented.
You know, at that time, people started using statins and I didn't want to take them.
I didn't know what they were.
But I know all about heart disease now.
Did you have plaque?
Did you have arterial plaque?
Yeah.
And it runs in my family.
I have a sister that has, or she used to, I don't think she does anymore, but her cholesterol is a 500.
Imagine.
That's like, it's crazy.
Cholesterol is a very controversial subject now because people are starting to try to sort out what is the actual cause of heart disease.
And there's a lot of people that don't believe it is cholesterol.
They think it's arterial plaque.
And what is this stuff called?
Natokinesase?
I don't know how to pronounce it.
But there's a supplement, like an over-the-counter supplement that's supposed to be able to eliminate arterial plaque in a very profound way that they're just starting to realize.
I don't know.
It's clogging of it.
Listen, I was in New York once with a girl, and I went to the doctor with her.
She's an actress.
And she was getting a physical, and she wanted me to go, so I went with her.
And she went to the best doctor in New York City.
And I found myself alone with that doctor.
And I said, so the doctor in Bloomington just put me on metformin.
What's the side effects for metformin?
And this guy, Joe, is the guy.
He went, longevity.
And he said, if it was up to me, I'd put the entire United States on metformin and a statin because the fucking food we eat is terrible.
Yeah.
It's processed, it's this and that, you know.
And he just said, you know, the human body was not meant to eat this crap.
That's a fact.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the solution is probably eating food that you're meant to eat.
But metformin is one of those drugs that longevity doctors recommend.
I've never been on it, but I know quite a few people that have.
I think, isn't it a diabetes drug initially?
Yeah.
My mom died of diabetes.
I was always borderline and I'm still borderline and this was she get type 1 or type 2 Well, she started out with two, and then she paid no attention to it, wouldn't take her medicine.
We'd drive by Krispy Kreme, and she'd go, don't kill your dad.
Okay.
And she'd get a half a dozen Krispy Kremes and eat them.
And it's just like, that's where it's at.
It's the food.
It's a horrible thing that we've done to this country.
I mean, this is the most controversial thing about RFK Jr., I guess.
Or one of the most controversial things is the elimination of all the stuff that's already eliminated in a lot of European countries.
I had a friend come here from Europe who had not ever been in the United States and got sick just from eating.
Just eating our food.
It's crazy.
Just our bread.
What is that supplement?
How do I say it?
I think of how you were saying that.
Can you find out what it's supposed to do?
Because there's a recent study.
There it is.
Okay.
So natokinase supplementation can significantly reduce the size of existing arterial plaques and slow the progression of arteriosclerosis.
I never say that word.
Arthuriosclerosis.
No.
Atherosclerosis?
Whatever.
Particularly at higher doses.
Natokinase and arterial plaque reduction.
Multiple clinical trials provide evidence that natokinase, an enzyme derived from fermented Japanese food NATO, has a positive effect on arthuriosclerosis, hardening and narrowing of the arteries due to plaque buildup.
Yeah, so folks, go take that stuff.
High-dose supplement shrinks arterial plaque by 36%.
Very interesting stuff.
Yeah.
And it's a very common supplement.
It's an easy-to-get supplement, and it comes from fermented food.
Well, you know, if you, you know, I've watched a lot of things about the food that we eat.
And terrible.
Terrible.
Well, a bunch of monsters decided to make more money, and the way they make more money is to throw a bunch of preservatives and bullshit and stuff into food so that it keeps their shelf life as long as possible.
You've heard those stories about taking a hamburger that you would buy at a very popular store and just putting it in a box and leaving it for five years, and five years later, it's...
Oh, yeah.
Mike, some of my grandkids were at my house on Defuski, and they had an ice cream sandwich, and they only ate half of it.
And it sat there for three hours and did not melt.
Yeah, I've seen those.
Yeah, that's not ice cream.
That's not ice cream.
I don't know what the fuck's in there, but it's not regular ice cream.
The Burger King or the McDonald's hamburger thing is nuts.
Because what is the longest that that guy, there's one guy that's had one on a shelf at his house for, God, I want to say it's close to 20 years or something crazy like that.
It's just sitting there.
And you would think that he got it five hours ago.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we're supposed to be eating that.
Yeah.
And for a lot of people, that's a big portion of their diet is fast food, which is just crazy.
You're just sucking down all these chemicals and preservatives.
Because if something cannot rot, can sit there and not rot.
A quarter pound of this 30 years old.
It's a quarter pound and it's 30 years old.
Wow.
That is insane.
Yeah.
That's insane.
That's craziness.
Wow.
Yeah, our food source, and I don't know about RFK Jr.
I, you know, I don't follow what he says or listen.
I try not to listen to much politics.
Good for you.
That's another good way to not have a heart attack.
Well, you know why?
Because it's all, you know, I was a hippie.
And I grew up thinking, you know, that anybody over 30 was the enemy.
Right.
And, you know, it's kind of like, I remember when Kennedy was shot, I asked my dad, I go, do you, you know, I was like a kid.
I go, do you really think one guy did it?
And he just looked at me and went, what do you think?
And that was his whole answer.
Wow.
Well, he knew it back then.
That's interesting.
Because it took a long, it took until Dick Gregory brought the Zapruder film on the Geraldo Rivera show, which was, I think it was 12 years after Kennedy's assassination, that people realized that he probably had gotten shot from the front.
Yeah.
Because his head went back into the left.
Yeah, and I've seen that.
And my dad was a young Democrat, you know, and so he was involved a lot with the Democratic Party back then.
And I'd ask him questions, and he never would really give me answers.
He would just give me looks.
And he knew the look.
It was just like, what do you think, John?
You really think somebody did that?
You know, figure it out for yourself.
Yeah, not much has changed.
And that's why I don't watch.
I don't, you know, I used to be very politically minded and cared about what politicians said.
I don't give a fuck what they say.
I don't trust any of them.
I don't like any of them.
Not that I don't like them.
Right.
It's just that I don't.
It's just hard to believe anything that anybody says because everybody's spinning everything in such a way that it's just like for their purposes.
You know, so, you know.
And unfortunately, we're more aware of it now than ever before.
There's less trust in politics now than there's ever been, and then there's more people talking about politics than there's ever been.
There's more polarization.
I mean, I don't know what it was like when you were a kid, but when I was a kid, there wasn't this polarization between people that were conservative and people that were liberal.
Like, you could hang out and talk to each other.
They didn't hate each other.
They just thought the other person was a fool for having a different opinion than them.
But there wasn't hate like there is today.
Well, here's the way you got to look at it.
This is that when you used to vote, you would go inside a place and they would shut the curtains and you would vote and that was your fucking business.
It's nobody else's business.
So like, you know, it's like, you know, I'm for anybody that's doing good.
If you're doing good and you're not hurting somebody, go, man.
But, you know, I'm not for cheating and, you know, how about a little morality and integrity and what you're saying and doing?
No, it would be nice.
It would be nice.
Well, it's never been that way.
No, never.
It's never been that way.
I mean, in the 60s, when I was a hippie, I mean, people think that this is like really bad.
No, it was really bad when fucking Russia had missiles in Cuba, and it was really bad when kids with long hair were getting shot at Kent State.
I mean, it was really the separation of adults and kids.
You know, there was a change that was happening.
And, of course, the change happened.
And all my generation did was get to wear blue jeans to work.
That was about it.
That's about all we accomplished.
Well, the change was because it was the first generation that realized that the war that they were being sold was bullshit.
Yeah.
You know, the people that were involved in World War I, World War II, they thought they were stopping the world from an evil dictator taking over and just ruining the world.
That's what we were.
In World War II, the United States was fighting Hitler.
You can't get a more evil person that's leading an army that you want to fight against than that guy, right?
So everybody felt like that was a just war.
Came back from that war victorious.
America had national pride.
We did it.
We're the good guys.
And then all of a sudden we're in Vietnam.
Like, what the fuck are we doing in Vietnam?
It didn't make any sense.
Back up, Joe.
What do you think the Civil War was fought about?
The Civil War?
Yeah.
Well, slavery was a big one.
No.
No?
Ports.
Ports.
They fought.
It was fought over ports.
The port in Savannah, Georgia was the biggest port in America.
And the ports in Boston, New York were struggling.
And the North said, Hey, why don't you guys send some of that our way?
You guys got more than you can handle.
And they said, Fuck you, no.
No, we're not sending you any of our stuff.
And they just kind of went, Well, then fuck you.
We're going to come down and take it.
But how are we going to get the American people to get behind that?
Slaves will say it's to free the slaves.
Really?
Yeah, I have a house in the South.
And that's what it was about.
It was about the ports.
Slavery was just an excuse because nobody cared about black people.
North or South.
Wow.
So you think that if they had just spread the wealth a little bit, that that would not have happened and slavery would have still continued?
Don't you think that?
I mean, there was already a distaste of slavery because it wasn't ubiquitous in the North.
But it was.
In the North it was?
Yeah.
I mean, Lincoln had slaves.
Right, back then, but not in the 1860s when they were fighting the Civil War.
He was president.
Really?
Does he had slaves when he was fighting in the war?
Yeah.
I wasn't aware of that.
Yeah, a lot of people in the North show, you know, they hadn't spun it to be so cruel as the South was, apparently.
Well, there was more in the South, right?
Because of plantations.
So here it is.
Abraham Lincoln never personally owned slaves.
This is according to Perplexity, which is our AI sponsor, which is always very accurate.
Either before or during his presidency, according to mainstream historical scholarship, claims that he had slaves through inheritance or marriage come from fringe or highly disputed sources and are not accepted by most professional historians.
That's me.
Lincoln was born in Kentucky, raised in Indiana and Illinois, all as a non-slave owner, working as a laborer, a lawyer, and a politician.
He was a really good wrestler, too.
Being related to slaveholders did not legally make those enslaved people his property.
And the best documented homes Lincoln himself maintained in Illinois and Washington employed free servants, not slaves.
Okay, where the idea of the people who are.
Let me stop for a second.
You can call it what you want.
Free servants, call it what you want.
Well, they were free, and they were getting paid.
It's like you said, you had a housekeeper.
It was still a minstrel show, no matter how you got it.
Okay.
Some modern writers and websites argue Lincoln inherited or ordered.
This is where the idea Lincoln had slaves came from.
Websites argued Lincoln inherited or ordered the sale of slaves via the Todd estate, but these claims hinge on a small number of contested documents and are rejected by most specialists in Lincoln studies.
There you go.
Well, it's interesting that the fact that we're even talking about it.
Well, it's kind of crazy how recent it was.
That's what's really crazy.
Oh, yeah, it wasn't that long ago.
Two people ago.
You know, people live to be 100.
Yeah.
1865 is roughly two people ago.
Yeah.
That's fucking crazy.
Well, I know.
I bet you when you were in school, you thought World War II was ancient history.
Oh, yeah, which is nuts because I was in high school in the 80s, right?
So World War II ended in 1945, which is nuts.
Yeah.
I thought it was ancient history.
I remember sitting in history class in eighth grade going, What do I need to know this shit for?
Know and I was born in 1951 so it was only like three or four years and the war ha had just ended.
That's nuts.
But to me, it was ancient history.
Isn't that crazy?
Because essentially what we're talking about now is like the 1980s.
Yeah.
Well that that to us, the 1980s, like to kids today, that must be like, oh my god, fucking dinosaur days.
No internet, fucking big old tube TVs.
It was a giant box.
A big one was 14 inches.
Yeah.
I remember being at home once and I told my dad, I said, hey, dad, the people down the street have got like a changer and it's got a cord on it.
And he goes, I got a changer too.
Change it to channel four.
I was a changer.
Yeah, I remember we used to have a pliers because the thing got scripped.
So you had to change the channel with the plier.
You didn't know what channel it was until like, oh, it's CBS.
All right, so we're on five.
Go like this.
Then you're on ABC, go like that.
You're on NBC.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember the day cable came out.
I was like, this is fucking bananas.
Look at all these channels.
Well, I remember seeing a home box office at the time.
It was like, what on earth?
I even remember what movie it was.
It was some The Miracle Man or something.
I thought, what is this?
It's past 11 o'clock and this movie's just starting.
Yeah.
Do you remember in the old days when the TV would sign off and the American flag would wave and it would just play music and then it would just go and then well the Indian would always show up.
Yeah.
The Indian would always show up and it had like this.
Yep.
And then it would go to nothing.
They would stop broadcasting at night.
Yeah, 11.
Yeah.
11.
Those were wild times.
Cable changed everything.
Home box office changed everything because when HBO came around, all of a sudden you got to see stand-up comedy uncensored.
I remember the first time I watched Sam Kinnison on HBO, I was like, this is fucking crazy.
Like I had never seen anything like that before.
Like wild, raw comedy.
You ever know Sam Kinnison?
No, I never met him.
I did.
What was he like?
Wild.
Yeah, I would imagine.
He was very unpredictable, very, you know, he was Sam Kinnison.
You know his story, how he became that way?
No.
Got hit by a truck when he was a little kid.
He was real normal.
Like a normal kid.
His brother Bill wrote about it.
His brother Bill wrote a great book called My Brother Sam.
And he said that Sam was just a normal kid, got hit by a truck, got really fucked up, bad brain injury.
And then from then on, wild and reckless.
Just like impossible to control, just a maniac.
Well, you could imagine.
I mean, you know, that's, I don't know about you, but if you grew up in the 80s, you know, our parents used to just tell us, go outside.
Yeah.
Yep.
Go outside and we'll see you at dark.
Yep.
And, you know, I could go, I was, I don't know, 10, 9, riding my bike all over Seymour.
Yep.
Which is where I grew up.
And just, nobody kept an eye on us.
No.
Nobody, you know.
And nobody had any idea of knowing where you are either.
It was just your responsibility to come home.
There was no way to find you.
It was funny.
They had to remind us that remind our parents that you have kids.
There was a thing that said, it's 10 o'clock.
Do you know where your children are?
Yeah, because a lot of people didn't.
They didn't.
And people would yell.
They would open up the window and yell their kid's name.
Billy!
And you just hear it in the neighborhood, someone like rolling down their window, rolling up their window and just screaming out the kid's name to tell them to come home.
Hoping the kid was an earshot.
I remember somebody in my neighborhood, I would hear every night at dark, Henry Earl!
And I'd hear it and go, I better go home.
If it's time for Henry Earl to go home, I better get home.
What was it like when MTV rolled around?
I didn't, I mean, I liked it.
How long had you been performing by then?
Oh, I was in my first band when I was 11.
Wow.
You know, a little garage band with a bunch of kids playing along with records.
And then I was in a band called The Crepe Soul.
Think about this, Joe.
I was 14 years old playing in bars.
Wow.
And my parents were cool with it.
It's like, where's John?
He's playing tonight.
Playing what?
He's in the Crepe Soul.
Oh.
And it was me and this black kid named Fred Booker.
And we shared the vocals.
And we would do, you know, we would do songs like Pool Strings and I'll Kiss Your Lips.
I'm your puppet.
I'm your puppet.
And we had, you know, neighbor jackets on.
And I was cute back then.
And so, you know, it was great for me.
I would have done it for free because I was 14 years old making out with 18, 19-year-old girls.
Wow.
I know.
It was great.
Are you kidding me?
And then we played at every fraternity, every sorority.
And I came home with maybe, you know, over the weekend I might make 60 bucks.
I was the best-dressed kid in school.
Wow.
That Mallencamp kid is just a dressed-up hood.
That's all he is.
So did you know back then that you were going to be a professional musician or were you doing it for fun?
Did you think it was going to be a career?
I thought, here's what I thought.
I'm either going to be a professional football player, a professional boxer, or a singer.
That was my choice.
You boxed?
Yeah.
Yeah?
I'll whip your ass right now.
At 74.
Is that why you were getting in so many fights?
Yeah, I liked it.
Wow.
I liked it.
I liked the contact.
I didn't like getting whipped every goddamn night, but, you know, it happens.
Did you have any professional boxing matches?
No, but my son, I'm going to brag on my son, was National Golden Gloves champ twice.
Wow.
And then he played football for Duke.
And he was, you don't want to mess with HUD.
Don't want to mess with HUD.
And so he's 31 now.
When did the music thing really start taking off for you?
Well, I went to college and I got a degree in broadcasting technology, which at that time was pretty.
And they would have dances at college and bands playing.
And I would sit there in the audience and go, I can do this better than that.
I know I can.
And so as soon as I got out of college, I got into a band called the Mason Brothers, which I have, I have so many funny stories.
Like I said, I'm so lucky.
I got into a band called the Mason Brothers, and we played every weekend, and I was a barroom singer.
You know, I never wrote any songs or anything like that.
You want to hear a funny story about the Mason Brothers, how the Mason Brothers ended?
Yeah.
This is good.
The guy that ran the band, I was just a singer.
And the guy that ran the band was a guy named Dave.
And Dave talked to the booker.
And we had a gig on a riverboat up and down the Ohio River.
And it was a fraternity show.
And we had an old Plymouth and a U-Haul on the back.
And we get there, and the guys in the fraternity show are so fucking mad at us.
Dave failed to realize that there was a time change between Seymour and Cincinnati, which is on the Ohio River.
So all these fraternity guys are going, Where the hell are you guys been?
You're an hour late.
So it really pissed me off.
I go, Dave, goddammit, if you're going to run the band, you've got to keep track of this shit.
He said, oh, don't worry about it.
And as time went on, and so as, and you had to do four sets back then, you know, four 45-minute sets, which was plenty of time for Dave to get drunk.
And he would drink, and he was the bass player.
And the fraternity guys already hated us, you know, because we weren't really any good anyway.
So Dave's playing, and it's going along really good.
And he was putting on a show and he leaned back and man overboard.
He fucking fell off the ship and they had to stop fishing.
Oh my God.
So I got so fucking mad at him that he said, I said, Dave, I'm going to quit.
This is it for me.
I'm done with this crap.
And then Dave said, no, John, give us one more chance.
And then the drummer quit because he went to medical school.
And then the guitar player was still in high school.
Wow.
And he was my mom and dad's paper boy.
And so Dave said, John, let me put the band back together.
I'll get some new guys.
And I'd call him up and I'd go, Dave, how's the band going?
And he'd go, oh, it's going great, man.
It's going really great.
I said, good.
I said, who are these new guys?
He goes, you'll see when you get there.
Don't worry about it.
I got it covered.
I said, oh, you mean like you did with the time change?
And he goes, no, no, no.
These guys are good.
So I show up for this gig.
I haven't even rehearsed with these guys.
Not even rehearsed with them.
But it was the same shit, you know, because we were just a cover band and I was just a barroom singer.
So, you know, if you want to see taking care of business, I'm your guy, you know, and take care of business.
You know, who can't do that?
So I show up.
Dave has recruited two sophomores in high school who couldn't play their instruments at all.
The drummer was like, pre-parent, prepare.
It's like, boom, boom, crack, asshole.
Boom, boom, crack.
That's all you got to do.
And he was the whole fucking time.
And so the show was about half over.
Just said.
I looked at Dave and I go, you're the lead singer, and I just left because it was just too embarrassing.
And then I got, I went, I went to New York and I was afraid Joe, I was afraid.
I mean, I'm from a fucking town of 18,000 people and I'd been to Chicago once.
I'd never been on an airplane.
And so I flew to New York because I came into some money.
That's another funny story.
I came into some money and I went there and I was afraid to come out of my hotel room for the first two days because New York in the early 70s was broke and there were prostitutes and pimps and everything everywhere you know, and homeless people, which reminds me you guys got a lot of homeless guys here.
There's a few.
It's not as bad as LA.
Well, that isn't.
You can say that about anything Joe, that's true.
Yeah, it's a lot better than it was during the pandemic.
During the pandemic they allowed them to do the camping on the street thing.
So you'd go down like Cesar Chavez and you'd see like 15, 20 tents where people were just hanging out and people were trying to jog and ride their bikes past them.
It was, it was pretty bad, but uh, former former mayor uh cleaned it up and they have pretty good programs here to get people into housing.
Everybody here, everybody here must love uh, and i'm not putting Austin down, i'm just I have.
You know, I was, I played here about three years ago uh, but everybody must love graffiti here and that's the thing about graffiti.
I I don't mind if you want to destroy somebody else's property, but at least do something original, because it all looks the same.
You know, it's big letters and outlined, and it's done in black and outlined in yellow and it's.
It's the same fucking shit.
You see in New York or Los Angeles, the same right.
If you're gonna, if you're gonna be a an artist, be an artist.
Well, a lot of these guys are just tagging.
They're just like sister gang, affiliation or whatever it is.
I guess I don't know.
Yeah, but it wasn't that way first time I came to Austin.
No, it's.
Well, I think all cities have deteriorated, but I think Austin's deteriorated quite a bit less.
We found out recently that skid row in L A is 50 blocks, 5-0 right now.
Right now, 50 blocks of homeless people just living on the streets and like almost impassable, like if you've ever been down Skid Row.
It's fucking.
I went there once accidentally and this was in the 2000s.
We were filming Fear Factor downtown in LA and I took a wrong turn and wound up in Skid Row and I was like I couldn't believe it was real, like it was like a zombie movie and that's.
I mean, it's a fraction.
So you decided on Fear Factor, you go stay in here for three days and you win three days and do no coke yeah, you could do three days with no meth and you win.
Yeah yeah, it was uh, it was sobering.
And then we looked up the history of uh skid row and the reason why it's like that is they would take people out of Hollywood and Beverly Hills and homeless people then, and they would put them in Skid Row and force them to stay there and they they sort of built it as a place where they could deposit vagrants and homeless people.
Well, there is a law in this country called vagrancy.
Yeah, not very enforced.
Well, it would be let me tell you something.
If you grew up in Seymour, Indiana, it was enforceable.
Right.
Because if you stand up town too long, which is all kids did back then, the cops come up and go, hey, you've been here for three hours.
We've been timing you.
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Yeah.
Move on.
You want to keep a nice clean town.
That's how you do it.
But if you let it go long enough, it will be like Skid Row.
I mean, and I think that what we're saying, like the documentary, what was the hotel again that won the Hotel Cecil.
The documentary was about the Hotel Cecil, which was a beautiful hotel in downtown L.A. that's now a fucking disaster area.
But it's in that whole area.
And they just, they couldn't figure out a way to deal with the homeless problem, but they didn't want it messing up the beauty and glamour of Hollywood.
So every time they would find homeless people, they would just ship them to downtown.
Downtown L.A. is really the only downtown of any major city that I've ever been to where nobody wants to go.
Downtown New York is fucking downtown.
Like, holy shit, we're downtown.
Look at all the restaurants.
Look at all the shops.
But it wasn't that way in the 70s.
The first time I went there, it was just like...
Yeah.
If you went to Times Square, it was frightening.
The first time I went to New York was to fight.
I was fighting in a martial arts tournament in 1980.
Oh, it had to be, I guess it was 85 or 86.
And it was bad.
We went through Times Square.
And I was like, oh, my God.
I couldn't believe people lived like this.
I remember the first time driving through it, I couldn't believe how big it was.
I was like, this is crazy.
It was so, because Boston, where I was from, was, you know, the big city, I thought.
It was nothing compared to New York.
I'm like, this is nuts.
I couldn't believe how many streets there were and how many buildings there were and how tall they were.
But just the seediness of it was so strange to me.
You know, the peep shows and all the weird people.
And I was a kid back then.
I was probably, you know, 18.
It was very strange.
It was frightening.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like I was, I don't know, I probably got sidetracked, but the first time I went there, I didn't leave my hotel room.
I was at a holiday inn on 57th Street, and I just kind of peeked through the curtains and looked, and I was like, I can't go out there.
I mean, I was, you know, coming off agoraphobia.
And here I'm in New York because I have a meeting with some record company people, and, you know, they like to demo.
So let's go back to that.
So you were your fucked up drunk friend, you quit him.
How do you get back into music after that?
Oh, Dave?
Yeah.
No, I got my first record deal.
The first guy I called was Dave.
No, he was a great bass player.
He was a great bass player.
Did he get his shit together before then?
No.
Nope.
Still not?
No, no.
I got funny stories about Dave and Max's case.
Is he still around?
Yeah, he's a professor now.
He found God and all this stuff.
He's a professor at Vince Edge University, and he teaches.
He's a professor.
Wow.
What does he teach?
Music.
Oh, wow.
And no, he was really a handsome, really good bass player.
Really, really, really, really good.
But he just, you know, Dave, we were 20 years old, 22 years old.
You know, what the fuck did we know about anything?
Yeah.
Nothing.
Nothing.
So when you left Dave and you left that band, what happened next?
What was like the big break for you?
I never really had a big break.
Well, something must have happened.
It was a slow climb.
Yeah?
It was a very slow climb.
Yeah, I got a record deal.
And of course, being me at that age, at 22, I went out to California and I met with a guy named Mike Maitland, who hated my new record but said I had great possibilities.
And I told him, I just stood up and I said, motherfucker, you're an old man.
What do you know about rock music?
He must have been 40.
And of course I got dropped immediately.
I was on MCA and I got dropped immediately.
But there were a couple people at MCA who believed in what I was doing.
And so they helped me along.
And then I got introduced to Rod Stewart's manager.
And I moved to England for two years, made a record and, you know, lived with the whole band on Chelsea, in Chelsea.
And punk was just starting.
Just starting.
I mean, you know, the Clash and the Sex Pistols.
I mean, they were brand new bands.
Wow.
And there I am with an acoustic guitar going, I need a lover.
However, that song became number one in Australia.
And so Australia was ahead of us with televising rock bands.
And they had a whole bunch of rock shows.
And I had the number one record, album, and single in Australia and couldn't fill up a bar in Bloomington.
Wow.
Couldn't, nobody'd come and see me.
So anyway, I went to Australia.
And then a girl covered I Need a Lover and she had a big hit with it.
I mean, mine was like, went to like 30 or something like that.
But hers went to like two of that song.
And that's how it all started for me.
That was the very first thing.
Wow.
With some girl covering on one of my songs.
And you were living in England?
I lived in England for two years.
And they had the National Front there at the time.
I don't know if you know what that is.
The National Front was, if you're not English, get out of our country.
And a couple, my couple guys in my band got beat up because they heard, you know, some of the National Front guys heard their accent, and it wasn't English.
So it was like dangerous to even go to the movies.
Keep your fucking mouth shut and your head down.
What year was this around?
70s?
77, 76, 77.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah, the National Front was, you know, they were like all a bunch of skinhead guys and violent and did not want any foreigners in their country at all.
And even Americans, you know.
So, yeah, you had to keep it.
You know, I learned real quick to keep your head down, your mouth shut.
Wow.
And so you got out of there because of that?
No, I got out of there because I got mad at the...
I know it's hard to believe that I got mad at somebody, but I got mad at the manager because I never could get the cocksucker on the phone, you know.
And then I came back to the United States, and he had a record deal based on the number one record in Australia.
And I used to go, well, we have a number one record in Australia.
And they would look at me and go, not many Australians in the United States, John.
So, you know, and then it just kind of built.
But see what happened.
And I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I didn't give a fuck.
I got to the point where it was like, I don't give a fuck.
You know, do what the fuck you want.
Because I didn't want to be Johnny Cougar, which is how they made me start.
Whose idea was that to turn you into John Cougar?
It was Johnny to start off with.
Johnny Cougar.
Tony DeFries managed me, David Bowie, Lou Reed, Mata Hoopel.
You remember all these bands?
Well, Lou Reed, for sure, yeah.
Yeah, anyway.
David Bowie, obviously.
Rod Stewart, obviously.
Same guy.
No, Rod Stewart was different.
Different manager.
Different manager.
But he was English, too.
So, it's hard to argue with someone that's got that kind of talent, right?
Well, it's hard to argue when you're 22 years old with a 45-year-old man who has had success.
Right.
Yeah, like I signed away my publishing and stuff.
This is an old story.
But, I mean, an old story from everybody from the Rolling Stones to, you know, you name it.
Prince.
If you were black, you know, it was like, here's a new car and a shiny ring and some money.
Yeah.
And so I remember I was getting ready to leave England and I heard that Gaff had good news for me in America.
So that's the reason I went home.
And the good news was, is that he just got a deal for me on Mercury Records.
And then, so I went back to the United States.
And we started, you know, started making records and just kept plowing away.
And the critics hated me.
You know, they fucking hated me because of Johnny Cougar.
And Maine Man came up with that name, Johnny Cougar.
And his excuse was his name was David Jones, and I called him David Bowie.
And look how well that worked out.
And that was, and I'm 22 and I'm going, but I don't like this name.
And they go, well, you don't have to, you don't have to participate.
You can go back to Indiana if you want.
It was like, well, fuck you then, I will.
And then I walked outside and thought for a minute, thought, hmm, I guess I'm Johnny Cougar.
Wow.
I hated it.
And they compared me to James Dean and Bruce.
And, you know, so the critics just hated that.
It was like, you know, he's so American.
He's so American.
You know, yeah, I was a fucking hillbilly.
Fucking critics.
They're always going to be a problem.
Yeah, but you know what?
I learned stuff from some of the critics that were good.
Like what?
Well, one of my best friends was a guy named Tim White, who was the editor of Rolling Stone and the editor of Billboard magazine, and he died a few years ago.
And you want to hear some inside baseball?
Sure.
Tim and I talked every day.
And Tim is as different as me as you.
Tim wore bow tie, white bucks, you know, blue jeans, suit jacket, every day.
And he was the editor of Rolling Stone for a long time.
And then he became editor of Billboard.
And he called me up and he said, I'm going to have to sign a deal with SoundScan.
I said, so.
I didn't know what that was.
He goes, John, you don't understand the ramifications of signing a deal with SoundScan.
I said, well, what are they?
He goes, you'll be out of business.
I go, why do you say that?
He goes, because now, the way the Billboard charts work, is this getting too inside baseball?
No, not at all.
The way that the charts work is that if you get played in Indianapolis and you get played in New York, it counts as one play.
New York counts as one play.
Indianapolis counts as one play.
A play is a play.
When SoundScan came in, they changed it so it's like the number one record of the week.
So if you got a play in New York, that was worth five points.
If you got a play in Indianapolis, that was worth a half a point.
So what does that mean?
That means that people who grew up in St. Louis and where rock took place, all of a sudden, you know, where I got played all the time, the points didn't amount to shit.
But what did?
Urban stations.
Urban stations played what?
Rap.
So, do you remember when all of a sudden rap music took over?
It wasn't because these guys were so great.
And I'm not saying they were bad.
I'm just saying that it was because of SoundScan.
And my friend Tim knew this was going to happen.
As soon as I signed this deal with SoundScan, and there was a magazine called Radio and Records at the time who was rivaling Billboard.
And If Tim hadn't bought SoundScan, Radio and Records would have bought them, which would have made them the premier record company, because they were the most modern.
So SoundScan changed everything.
So I'm sure that you remember that there was a time when you knew every song that was number one.
Then all of a sudden you woke up one day and you didn't know what the what did what's how does this song become number one?
But the way that it was before SoundScan, each song had to work its way up the charts.
So if you had like, you know, let's say 20 plays, I'm just throwing out low numbers, but you had 20 plays that got added to the 20 plays that you got the next week.
So now you have 40 plays.
So you might move up from 36 to 31.
But Joe Rogan in Boston was hearing the fucking songs as they move up.
Oh, I heard this new song.
You talk to your friend.
And they said, yeah, I heard that song.
And then all of a sudden the song would build and Michael Jackson would be number one or whoever.
And once SoundScan took over, if you were in a rock band, the record companies said, well, fuck this.
We're not even going to advertise in Indianapolis anymore.
The biggest numbers are RB stations and they're playing rap.
And that's what we're going to service those people.
Because back then, you know, there was payola and all that stuff going on.
Of course.
So there was like no money coming into Indianapolis all of a sudden, where there used to be.
It was all going to New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, to all these RB stations.
And then what was that thing called when you could like download records for nothing?
Napster.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then that started.
And then that really put us out of it.
Put all rock guys out of it.
If you check the Billboard charts right now, I bet you you'd be hard-pressed to find two rock bands in the top.
Rock bands right now, just in general, are almost non-existent in terms of like new bands.
It's really weird.
There used to be so many rock bands, and rock and roll is still a very popular form of music when you listen to the older stuff.
That's why I've decided, I don't mean to plug myself, but they have been asking me, because I got tired of going on tour and being a cheerleader, which is what I was.
Let's do a rounding hit of small town.
I was born, you know, and everybody'd stand up singing.
I was playing to 20,000 people and everybody was drunk.
And I was just kind of the cheerleader, you know, the human beings.
People's good time.
Yeah, giving them the opportunity.
I just thought, you know, I'm here to be a musician.
This is not being a musician.
This is being a fucking clown.
I don't want to be a clown.
So I started playing in theaters, which pissed everybody off.
I said, and, you know, when you come to one of my shows, and this has been for the last 20 years I've been doing this.
You come to one of my shows in a theater, it says, please recognize.
Back then, pull that sucker up close to your face.
The microphone.
Otherwise, we're barely here.
You're very soft-spoken already.
How's that?
There we go.
I am?
And?
I am soft-spoken.
Yeah, a little bit.
Yeah.
You know why?
Why?
Because I'm deaf.
Are you really?
Oh, from all the singing?
All the music?
Oh, every rock star is deaf.
I'm deaf.
No one knew shit about hearing protection back then.
No, I'm deaf.
I can't hear.
All my friends in bands and all my friends that are hunters.
Deaf.
Can't hear.
Yeah.
Guns and loud music.
Yeah, my kids would love it because they could walk up and say shit behind my back.
I heard that.
I got three girls and two boys.
How many kids you got?
Three.
Three girls.
Girls are at about 12, you lose them.
And then about 21, they come back.
I haven't lost them.
You haven't?
No, no.
I'm real close.
Yeah.
I'm 17 at 28.
I kind of lost mine.
You know, it was like, but now it's kind of like, but I do have a daughter that's really sick.
It's not fucking fun.
Oh, that sucks.
I'm sorry to hear that.
She's got cancer in the brain.
Oh, Jesus.
And she's suffering right now.
But that kid used to call me up and I'd go, Teddy, you can have a thought without asking me if it's, you know, figure it out yourself.
You don't have to ask me everything, you know.
But I love having kids.
I do too.
It has made me a much nicer person, that's for sure.
Yeah, me too.
But I've stayed close with them even through the teenage years, luckily.
But, you know, I worked hard at it.
I was on tour all the time.
Yeah.
Well, that's one of the things that I did when we moved to Texas almost six years ago now.
Is that I decided to be home a lot more.
In the beginning, when here I was still touring a lot, I would do, you know, weekends.
I'd go do shows.
But now I hardly ever.
Now I have my own comedy club, so I'm in town all the time.
What do you think of stand-up now?
I love it.
It's a great time for stand-up.
You think?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You don't have to worry about crossing the line.
Yeah, you do.
Yeah.
Yeah, you do.
You'll cross the line, but not with the people that you care about.
You cross the line for people that are looking to be offended.
Well, which is a lot of people.
Yeah, so they're going to be mad.
Let them be mad.
Yeah.
You just can't pay attention.
That's the thing.
It's like, I tell all the comics, stay out of the comments.
Don't read anything about yourself, and you'll be all right.
The audience is what matters.
Is the audience laughing?
I've never Googled myself.
Good for you.
In my life.
Good.
I've never Googled myself ever because I don't give a fuck.
Well, that's a good practice to keep.
Where were we?
So we were talking about how they stuck you with the Johnny Cougar name.
You're in New York City.
That's kind of where we left it off.
I was trying to figure out what was the MTV days like, and when did it really start cracking?
Pull that microphone close up to you.
When did it really start cracking?
Do you know John Sykes?
No.
He was one of the guys who started MTV.
Okay.
And I remember calling him up, and I didn't know him.
This was like 1981, 82.
And like I said, you know, it was like All you really saw of guys in rock bands were the album covers, and you know, maybe on Midnight Special or something like that, or Don Kirschner's Rock Concert or something like that.
But then with MTV going all the time, and not very many people made videos.
But see, I was making videos because I had a hit in Australia.
And like I said, Australia was way ahead of us.
So it was the video that I just made in a club in London that was shown that made that record number one in Australia.
And so when MTV started, there wasn't that many people making videos, but I was.
So they had made content.
So they played me all the fucking time just because nobody else had videos yet.
Right, people hadn't caught up yet.
Right.
And I remember sitting with, I can't remember the guy, some English guy.
And I said, Do you, what is this MTV thing?
He goes, I don't know.
The record company told me, I can't remember the guy's name.
He was really a good songwriter.
But you don't hear of him much anymore.
Anyway, I had a conversation.
Neither one of us knew what was going on.
And then I met John, and I was the first, and John and I got along great.
I was the first promotion that MTV did.
And we gave away a pink house.
Oh, wow.
You know, and you had to register and do all this stuff.
And there's a funny story that goes with that.
So Sykes and somebody else came to Indiana to find a house in Bloomington that they were going to buy.
And then they were going to do a show.
And I did an ad where I went, and you can win a house and we're going to paint the mother pig, you know.
And that's what they did.
Except the house they bought, Joe, was on a chemical dump.
Oh, no.
But I didn't know it, and they didn't know because they're from New York.
And so when I found out, I called them up.
I said, guys, we can't give away this house.
It's on a fucking chemical dump.
Because RCA was dumping chemicals out in this field that was right next to the house that we bought, you know.
And back then, in the early 80s, there wasn't much legislation about where you can dump that kind of stuff.
So they had to buy another house, which they weren't happy about.
So they had to buy two houses, couldn't sell the other one, gave it away.
And Sykes, to this day, I'll tease him about it.
And he'll go, oh, we took that off the books years ago.
Jeez.
But it went from walking down the street to nobody know who the fuck you are to walking down the street.
And everybody knew who you were.
Everybody.
I mean, it got the at the height of MTV.
You couldn't go.
I couldn't go anyplace.
Did you get the agoraphobia before that?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, boy.
So that probably just made it way worse, right?
No, actually, again, Joe, lucky.
It helped me get over it.
It helped me.
And, you know, like I believe that all growth takes place in the chemicals inside our body.
So I was growing still because I grew up in public.
Right.
You know, I grew, I mean, I literally grew up.
When I got my first record deal, Joe, I had never written a song.
Wow.
Never written a song.
They asked me, well, play some of the songs you've written.
It's like, I don't write no fucking songs.
I'm a barroom singer.
I sing other people's songs.
But do you want a song?
What do you want me to write for?
Dylan's writing great songs.
Shrinks.
I haven't written anything.
Nothing.
Wow.
So when did you start writing?
After you got a record deal?
Yeah.
Wow.
But it turns out you're a great writer.
That's crazy.
And I have dyslexia.
Which means I can't read.
You should see my songwriting books.
It's absolutely terrible.
It looks like, you know, I have to have somebody now, after I write a song, I have to give it to somebody right away and let them copy it and I'll read it to them so that we can read what the fucking, you know, what I wrote.
Because songwriting is not what people think it is.
But anyway, back to MTV.
It just blew up and you couldn't go anywhere.
I couldn't.
I would walk down the street and all I did was sign autographs and shake hands and I didn't like it at all.
Well, that'd be very weird.
Yeah, I mean, it was like, you know, you've been in rock bands since you were 13.
Nobody gave a shit.
And then all of a sudden they did.
And, you know, it was the baby boomers coming of age.
And, you know, I was very fortunate, but unappreciative.
So when you first started writing songs, what was your process when you knew how to write songs?
How did you.
Well, I figured out, because don't forget the critics hated me.
Already?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
They hated Johnny Cougar.
Fucking hated him.
And I didn't like him much either.
Because we weren't any good.
We just weren't.
We did not write songs.
We didn't know how to do anything.
So I figured, how do you reach a lot of people by being on the radio?
So keep it simple, stupid.
So I would write, like, I had a song called Hurt So Good.
Do you remember that song?
Sure.
Yeah, Hurt So Good.
I wrote that in a shower.
And I came out real quick and I wrote it down.
And then I had somebody write it down.
And I remembered the melody and I sang it into a tape machine.
And I got so many funny stories.
I was down in Criteria, which was in Florida in Miami.
And, you know, it was the early 80s.
And so we had this and Criteria had five or six studios and, you know, there were like, I don't know, all kinds of bands.
The PGs were over here and this band was over here and I don't remember.
And we had we had the studio blocked out, but we wouldn't show up.
We had other things to do.
There was a place called Scaramouche.
They had the prettiest girls you ever saw in your life.
So it was like we did not have time to go to the studio because we had been up till daybreak at Scaramouche.
You know, and so I was spending a lot of fucking money by now.
And it was like maybe, you know, at the time, a half a million dollars.
And I had three songs done.
Whoa.
That's exactly right.
Whoa.
And I'd had a couple hits.
I had I De Lover, Ain't Even Done with the Nine.
And this time, I think, and so those songs were like got into the top 20.
Anyway, the record company came down and said, Melling camp, what the fuck?
You know, you're spending all this money.
And if you don't get on with it, we're going to drop you from the label.
And I went, you can't drop me from the fucking label.
Are you kidding me?
I'm just starting.
Well, we want to come down and hear what you've done.
I said, well, come on down.
I played him three songs, the three I had done in six weeks.
Anyway, I played him three songs.
They hated him.
Which songs were they?
Jack and Diane.
Oh, God.
Hurt So Good.
Oh, God.
And Hand to Hold On To.
Oh, my God.
They hated those.
Oh, they hated him.
They said, Oh, wow.
They said, John, this is they're too rough.
They're too raw.
And what is this sound in Jack and Diane?
This it's not even, what is that sound?
Well, the sound was I would walk by the Bee Gee studio and they had just invented drum machines.
And the Bee Gees were using it to keep time.
Because, you know, most drummers they speed up.
You know, you start the song at this tempo, and all of a sudden they're like, no, By the end of the song, it's like, I can't keep up with you.
God damn it.
Slow down.
So the Bee Gees were using it to keep time.
And I heard this sound.
And so I knew the engineer, his name was Albie Gluten.
And I said, Albi, can I borrow that machine?
He goes, Yeah, because we're not going to be in the studio for a week.
So we were doing a song called Jack and Diane that just was not working out because the drummer kept speeding up.
And when you're trying to keep it simple, stupid, simple is hard.
Because if you make a little mistake, it's a big mistake now because there's not a bunch of shit covering up your mistake.
Right.
So I called up Mick Ronson.
He was the guitar player for David Bowie.
You remember Mick?
No, I don't.
Joe!
God damn it.
Sorry.
Anyway, Mick was a great guy.
He was Bowie's guitar player when Bowie was great, when he had Ziggy Stardust and all that stuff.
And Ronson was an English guy, and he'd call me Johnny all the time.
And he said, Johnny, maybe you should put those baby rattles on there.
And I go, what?
He goes, you know, that drum machine thing that makes that noise just to keep time.
And I said, okay, we'll try it.
So we put on this dune, doon, do, and it was perfect timing.
Perfect.
So the idea was, is that we'll take that drum machine out when we get everything.
We'll take it out.
And now the drummer had to play in time because that machine did not budge.
That machine was perfect.
And it was a prototype of a drum machine.
That's how new it was.
It was a prototype.
And it was the only one.
They gave them the VGs to try it out and see how they liked it.
And so we got it all together and we took the drum machine out.
Sounded like shit.
It sounded great with the drum machine.
So I said, fuck it, we'll just leave the drum machine in.
And it worked because nobody'd ever heard that sound.
And the record company didn't like that.
Oh, they hated it.
They hated that fucking sound.
But that song was so good.
Well, you know, and it's surprising to me that to this day, how many people still love that song?
It's a fucking great song.
You know, and every time.
What year was that?
1981.
Wow.
I was 14.
So how old were you at 19?
14.
See, high school.
Yeah, you were there.
Yeah.
That's great.
See, that's great.
And I love hearing, you know, guys your age talk about it because it's just like, I didn't know what the fuck I was doing.
And the fact that that song today, I had somebody tell me, one of the nicest things anybody said to me was, is that, John, there was Romeo and Juliet.
There was Frankie and Johnny.
And now there's Jack and Diane.
And you've joined, those two kids have joined those people of importance in American culture.
Yeah.
And think about it.
Now, who would have fucking thought that some dumbass like me would write a fucking song as a child when I first started writing songs and create those two characters that made such an impression on everybody?
The only other one I think about is Brenda and Eddie from Billy Joel.
Scenes from an Italian Restaurant.
Yeah.
That's another one.
Yeah.
Jack and Diane was fucking huge when I was in high school.
I can't believe the record company didn't like that.
They didn't like hand to hold on to.
God.
And they didn't like me.
God.
And they didn't like me.
How could you be more wrong than Jack and Diane?
Jack and Diane was fucking huge.
Joe, look at, I don't know that much about your career, but look at your career and look at what suits have said to you and how wrong they were.
Well, the most successful thing that I've ever done, nobody had any input on at all.
Which is this.
Well, there you go.
Yeah, there's not a chance in hell anybody would have said, yeah, have unfiltered conversations for three hours with random people.
And, you know, millions of people will listen and watch.
No one would have believed it.
But when we did it, we didn't do it for anybody else.
But you were an actor before.
Yeah, well, I was a comic first, and then because I got a development deal, they gave me some money to be on a sitcom.
So I did that.
That sitcom got canceled.
Then I did another sitcom that was kind of successful called News Radio.
That got canceled.
And then I wound up being on Fear Factor.
Yeah.
It's just a bunch of weird circumstances that a lot of luck, a lot of weird stuff happened.
A lot of luck.
Yeah.
Yeah.
See, and you know what?
I walk in my house sometimes and I look around and think, I get to fucking live here.
Yeah.
I get to fucking live here.
I think that all the time.
Yeah.
I get to live here.
And how lucky I am to have had that kind of success from such a horrible beginning as Johnny Cougar.
And, you know, to be able to, you know, do I've done what I wanted to do ever since I decided, fuck you guys.
Yeah.
After American Fool came out and those songs became hits, nobody has ever said shit to me about anything.
Well, they realized they were wrong.
Well, those guys, I'm sure, are out of business.
And I have to kind of smile about the rock critics because it got to the point where I had such so many songs on the radio that they couldn't ignore it anymore.
You were undeniable.
Yeah.
And you know what?
That's the word I used to say.
That's the key to success.
That's the word I used to say to the guys in the band.
We have to make the song undeniable.
Because if you give them an inch, they'll find a fucking reason not to.
They definitely will.
And there's good in that, too.
There's good in those people that hate.
They're valuable.
They can fuel you to greatness.
They can fuel you to be better.
Because if you know that there's people out there that are just going to fucking hate on you no matter what you do, and you just got to come up with something that, listen, this will be undeniable.
And they'll still hate it.
Look, I was watching a fucking interview yesterday where this lady was talking shit about the Beatles.
She was talking about how she thinks the Beatles are terrible.
And this lady was not particularly articulate.
She wasn't interesting or compelling.
She didn't seem very intelligent.
But she was speaking with such authority about how she thought the Beatles were terrible.
And I was like, well, you're fucking wrong.
You couldn't be more wrong.
You couldn't be more wrong.
They are one of the greatest bands in the history of the fucking known world.
Yeah.
Fact.
But this lady was just going, which shows you you cannot make everybody happy because some people don't want to be happy.
They don't want to see good.
You had four really talented people in that band.
And it showed, because some of the songs, hear me out, some of the songs, it was good for my generation because we went from cartoons to rock and roll.
So in a town where I was born, lived a man who sailed the seas.
And, you know, it was a cartoon.
Right, right.
And the guy that produced Martin, the guy that produced the Beatles, up until that point, he made comedy records.
Ah.
Yeah.
He made comedy records and cartoons.
And so that's, at least that's my understanding.
And he brought that to them, you know, and, you know, you have four guys writing songs.
It's a lot better than John Mellencamp writing songs.
Tell you that.
You know, so.
Yeah.
But my point is, it's like, you can't make everybody happy because everybody's not happy.
And they don't want to be happy.
I have said for years, I'm not for anybody.
I'm not for anybody anymore.
Right.
If you're coming to my show, and this is when I started playing theaters, if you're coming to my show to hear all these hits, you're not going to.
But that's why after 20 years, I'm going to go back out and I'm going to play nothing but hits for two and a half hours.
That's how many hit records I've done.
That's incredible.
Yeah, it's going to be, you know, and I'm, and now I'm looking forward to it.
Yeah.
Because I have not played I Need a Lover in 25 years on stage.
I'm not.
So it's fresh.
Yeah, it's a brand new song.
Yeah.
I'm going to be playing it in a way that nobody's ever imagined.
Wait till if you come and come and see me.
Wait, you hear Jack and Diane?
I have jammed it up and it's a soul song now.
Wow.
Yeah, there's a term for it.
Smash.
What do they call it?
Smash something.
Anyway, we turned it into a soul song.
I mean, what would it be like if Jack and Diane was a soul song?
So you leave the melody the same, but you put the instruments around them differently.
You know.
To make it interesting for you.
Well, and to the audience, because when the chorus comes in, they're going to be singing that chorus.
Right.
Because if I play it now.
He's trying to push that thing up to your face.
If I play it now, you know, it's just usually me and acoustic guitar.
And it's good because a little ditty, and I don't have to sing anymore.
Right.
They sing the whole song.
Right.
And I might go, oh, yeah, and that's it.
And then the audience sings it, which is great.
Which is great.
It's got to be really cool.
I've got to come see you live.
Are you in Texas at all?
I don't know.
You don't know?
When did you drop the Cougar?
Because at first you were John Cougar Mellencamp, and I remember that.
I was like, what is going on?
Why does he have another name?
It was confusing to me.
Well, I was trying to, and I think I did it successfully.
It was a good transition.
I didn't, you know, I could call up somebody and go, hey, it's John Mellencamp.
They wouldn't take my call.
I could call back two seconds later and go, it's John Cougar, and they would take my call.
So I figured this will have to be a slow change.
Elvis Costello tried to do the same thing and didn't work.
What was his real name?
I don't remember.
Oh, wow.
That's not his real name.
But, you know, he was tired of being Elvis Costello, and he went back to his real name, and people just wouldn't accept it.
But with me, it was such a slow burn thing to get over.
So, you know, again, what?
Lucky.
It was the first time that I recognized that artists were forced to change their name with you.
I didn't know.
Really?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I had no idea.
Do you know?
Do you know that every fucking movie star that we ended up watching on those black and white things, that's not any of their real names.
They're all changed.
They're all changed.
You think Rock Hudson was his real name?
Sounds good.
Yeah, it sounds great.
Yeah.
No.
Yeah, somebody decided they wanted to come up with a catch your name, which is interesting for a guy like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
It kept his real name as bizarre as it was and hard to pronounce.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I just saw him smashing the president.
Yeah, he's always smashing somebody.
I think he's bored.
He needs to get back and run.
He was a great governor.
He really was.
He did a really good job with California.
California's a fucking mess now.
When you transitioned to John Cougar Mellencamp, and then eventually, like, how long did you John Cougar Mellencamp before you became John Mellencamp again?
I think the last John Cougar Mellencamp record was a record called Scarecrow.
And it had Small Town on it.
It had Small Town on it.
It had five hits.
Can you imagine?
It had five fucking hit records off that one album.
Pretty amazing.
Yeah.
Lucky.
And don't forget, I had never written a fucking song.
That's what's crazy.
Yeah.
Never written a song.
So I grew up in public.
And if you listen to my songs, now so much more mature than those young.
I got so sick of it that I wrote a song called Pop Singer in like 991.
Never wanted to be no pop singer.
Never wanted to sing no pop song.
I remember that.
Never wanted to, you know, have a manager hang out after the show.
I just, you know, it was, I wanted to be a musician and not a clown, which, you know, if you remember back, Joe, and I'm putting anybody down, but there were a lot of clownish guys from MTV.
Sure.
You know, that were like, what?
Yeah.
You know.
And a lot of sexism and stuff from MTV and no black people for a while.
You know, they didn't play any black people.
They might play Michael Jackson, but other than that.
Right.
But they just didn't.
And I remember talking to Sykes about it.
Sykes, me, Don Henley, and somebody else went and did, they were going to drop MTV off a whole bunch of stations, and we got on a plane and went there, went to all these different stations that were going to drop MTV and talk to them why they couldn't do it.
And it worked.
Why were they dropping MTV?
Too lewd, too.
I want to tell you something else, young man.
I want to tell you something else.
I showed that by accident in a video.
And MTV wasn't going to play the video.
Because you had a tattoo?
Yeah.
That's hilarious.
Yeah, because I had a tattoo.
That's hilarious.
I know.
Oh, my God.
It's so funny when you think about what music is like now.
And then especially like in the late 80s when hip-hop really took off and then gangster rap took off.
Well, and now you know why, because what we're talking about about SoundScan and stuff.
That's how all that happened.
And my deceased friend Tim White, who I love dearly, told me it was going to happen.
And I just sat back and went, I can't believe that this is right.
Wow.
I can't believe that that can happen.
You know, rock is too important to the culture, too important, you know.
And there's a lot better songwriters than me, and we all got it.
86th.
I mean, like the fucking Rolling Stones just put out a new album, and I never heard it.
You never heard it.
No, I saw them live a couple of years ago here.
They played at the Circuit of the Americas.
It was fucking incredible.
It was like having an out-of-body experience.
It's like I couldn't believe they were really there.
Yeah.
I remember watching Mick Jagger on stage, and my friend was talking to me, and I was watching him, and he's like, Isn't this fucking incredible?
I was like, I can't believe it's really him.
It's like they are so iconic.
And here he is in his fucking 80s, just jamming.
The guy brings two trailers, two whole trailers that are just gym equipment.
Yeah.
Everywhere he goes, works out every day.
Every year, we started FarmAid in 1985, and every year, because you have at FarmAid, you have a press conference in the beginning, and then I don't go on until like 9 o'clock.
So I got all day.
You know what I do half the day?
Neil, can I use your fucking gym equipment?
Because he's got a trailer.
Like, you know, you would haul groceries and couches and shit.
And it's full of gym equipment.
Can I use your?
So I use his, not his weights so much, but his, you know, his, what do you call it?
I call it the lazy machine.
Where you can be lazy.
Elliptical?
Yeah, elliptical cross-trainer.
Hey, listen, it's better than nothing.
Yeah.
But I mean, watching Mick in his 80s dancing around on stage and doing a two-hour concert with full energy.
It's so impressive.
It's so inspirational that this guy still loves it that much.
I mean, he wasn't phoning nothing in.
I mean, it was fucking him dancing, button your lid, baby.
I mean, it was full on.
I was like, wow.
It was amazing.
And what I find amazing, and I don't know why I find it amazing, but I find it amazing that people relate to music in that fashion.
Because I didn't know that as a kid.
I just thought, you know, I thought I'd make two records and that'd be done.
That's why I stayed in Bloomington.
I had a little bit of money.
I didn't know how much more I'd have, you know, how much longer I was going to last.
So let's try to buy a little house.
And I talked to, I'm good friends with Bruce, and him and I both kind of just look at each other and go, Can you fucking believe it?
Because he's from a real little shitty town in New Jersey.
And we both just look at each other and go, fuck, can you believe it?
It's unbelievable.
Well, gratitude's an important thing.
It's kind of co-opted today with a lot of like this spiritual movement.
You know, people say it, and it kind of sounds hollow and fake.
But real gratitude and real thankfulness for a life that you've been so lucky to have and I've been so lucky to have.
It's very important.
It's an amazing thing.
I mean, how could you not look back at your life and not think, can you fucking believe it?
Yeah, and you know, the thing of it is, is that I sometimes ask my audience, I go, where are you right now?
And most of you probably say, I am at a John Mellencamp concert in Austin, Texas.
And my answer is yes, but also where you really are, you're on a fucking rock that's going around the fucking sun that has been here for millions of fucking years.
And so we are only here for a blink of an eye.
So stop worrying about everything so fucking much.
It doesn't fucking matter.
Don't beep your horn because the fucking guy in front of you didn't take off right when the light turned red.
It's not that important.
Don't take yourself so fucking seriously and try to try to have some humility.
You know, that's what I hate about politics today.
There's no fucking humility.
How about some humility?
I don't care what party you're with.
I don't give a fuck.
But show some humility and some, you know, respect for each other, which they just don't.
Right.
They just don't.
It's terrible.
Yeah, there's a lot of that.
If we could get more people to recognize how brief and fleeting this moment alive is.
It's so, well, I got it tattooed right here on my arm.
And my grandmother told me this when she lived to be 100.
And I would go over and I'd lay in bed with her when she was like 99, 98.
And one day she said to me, she goes, you know, John, if you don't stop discussing and wild living, you're not going to get into heaven.
And I went, ah, grandma.
She goes, yes, you, you know, you need to change your ways a little bit.
And I said, yeah, well, you'll get me into heaven.
Don't worry about it.
And she said, no.
She said, you're going to find out real soon.
Now listen, life is short even in its longest days.
It certainly feels short when you look back, right?
Oh, yeah.
But just think about those words coming from a 100-year-old woman.
Yeah.
You know, life is short even in its longest days.
Really, the opposite end of the spectrum.
Oh, yeah, life goes on.
Right, right, right, right.
So I wrote a song called Life is Short, and I love playing it.
I love playing it because it really hits the nail on the head of, you know, getting— How old did you say you were?
58.
58 years old.
You're still a kid.
You're still a kid.
How old are you now?
74.
Wow.
Well, you look great.
Thanks.
Maybe we can go on a date tomorrow.
Is singing and performing, is it different now?
Do you appreciate it more now than when you were younger?
Is it a different feeling because you've done so much and the scope of it is so big now in retrospect?
Well, like I said, I'm really looking forward to going out and doing a greatest hits tour.
I've never done one.
I can't even imagine thinking back to when I was like 35.
That idea would be like, shut the fuck up.
not doing that right but now at my age it's kind of like and i i was i did a thing with sean penn and sean and i were talking and he goes john just go do it Because I was on the fence about doing it.
He goes, what's wrong with you?
Yes, go do it.
Don't you think that if I could show the best parts of my movies to people that I would do it?
And I go, I don't know.
He goes, yeah, because you're really sharing something.
Well, it's also not a whole lot of people have ever done it before, right?
Not a whole lot of people have ever had the kind of hits that you've had.
So the opportunity to go out there and do two and a half hours of fucking hits is amazing.
And I have to, like I said, I walk in my house and I go, I can't believe I get to live here.
And, you know, I feel good about, you know, I'm the only father in the world that does not encourage their kids to work.
It's like, what do you want to go to work for?
You know, my son graduated from Duke, and it's just like, fuck that works off.
Do what you want to do.
You're 31 years old.
You're handsome.
You're 31 years old.
You could beat anybody up in the room.
You know, why do you want to?
But I think he's getting to the age where he wants to get a job, and I don't want him to leave because he still lives on my property.
And it's nice.
I love having him in there.
I love having HUD live with me.
He doesn't live with me.
He lives in a different house, a different building.
But I love having him there because I know that I can pick up the phone and go, hey, HUD.
And he's there.
And I'm telling you, having kids was one of the best things I ever did.
It's interesting, too, because having a kid when you're in high school, a lot of people think is like a death sentence for your career.
Well, it was a death sentence for my kid.
You know, I was 18 years old.
I was on drugs.
You know, my idea of raising a kid back then when I was in college was throwing water balloons at her.
That's all I knew.
It's like, this is fun.
You know, but it turned out, you know.
But, yeah, I really enjoy my kids.
And my dad told me that.
He told me, have as many kids as you can because when you get older, because see, I had, I don't know about you, but I had seven of my best friends die in 18 months.
Wow.
Yeah.
Because they couldn't get off the party.
They just couldn't get off the party because they were drunk all the time.
I mean, if you drink Crown Royal every fucking day, it's going to fuck up your liver.
100%.
Yeah.
And that's what they did.
I mean, you know, except Tim.
Tim had a heart attack.
Tim White, the guy I was telling you about, he died on an elevator ride from in New York from the ground floor to his office.
And by the time he got up there, he was dead.
Wow.
But he would call me up every day and go, man, my chest really hurts.
My back really hurts.
You know, and I would go, Tim, your dad died at like 49 from heart disease.
You think you better go to the doctor?
I don't want to go.
And that's what most guys do.
They don't want to go to the fucking doctor.
Yep.
Yeah.
You know.
But I do.
Does the doctor tell you to stop smoking?
All the time.
But see, here's the thing about cigarettes.
Find something you love and let it kill you.
Find something you love and let it kill you.
Yeah.
I don't know.
It's not killing you yet.
And I just had a I just had a heart mammogram and all that stuff.
And the doctors go, because the heart is shaped like this, you know, like that.
And then what happens is that the longer you smoke, it flattens out, and that way it's full of crap.
Mine's still like this.
And he said, and this is two years ago, he said, well, I'd like to tell you you need to quit smoking, but if you've been smoking as long as I know you have, the only thing that's really happened is that your heart looks like a teenager's and your voice sounds black.
Do you think it's because you smoke American spirits?
I talked to a doctor that said that to me.
Suzanne Humphrey, she was like, I think that one of the things that's killing people is cigarettes with all the additives in it, all the different chemicals that they put.
120 chemicals.
Crazy.
My girlfriend hates that I fucking smoke.
Of course, she knew I was smoking when she met me.
But now that we've been together for three years, and my wife of 20 years, Elaine, never smoked a cigarette in her life until she met me.
And then she started smoking.
She, on one hand, just said, well, fuck it.
If you can't beat them, join them.
So she started smoking.
But Kristen hates cigarettes.
And I don't know what to tell her.
Because, you know, I don't do much good, but I'm really a good smoker.
Really good ass.
What is it they love about cigarettes so much?
They're part of me.
I don't know how to put it.
I mean, I smoked my first cigarette at 10.
Wow.
10.
64 years of smoking.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
And you're okay.
I was addicted in high school.
Wow.
I used to wake up in the morning and my parents had a great big house and I would go down in the basement, go into the fucking storm cellar and smoke, not knowing that I came out of that little area smelling like a cigarette ashtray.
Right.
And my parents, you know, it was like, have you ever been smoking downstairs?
Yeah.
But they never said anything.
Well, maybe it's better than having the stress of not smoking.
One of the things about smoking, and I'm not an advocate.
I'm not telling people they should smoke.
But maybe one of the things about it is that at least it relaxes you.
I think one of the worst things for people is just stress.
I was talking about a friend of mine who's going through something pretty heavy right now.
And he's had a couple of heart attacks and there's nothing wrong with him.
He's had heart attacks just from stress where his fucking arteries just lock up.
His whole body is just locked up just from anxiety and stress.
And he's had heart attacks because of that.
Doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, takes care of himself.
And just the problems in his life are so overwhelming.
But it's got to be, there's a benefit.
There's got to be a benefit to just relaxing, just enjoying something and relaxing and not having that overwhelming.
Well, it's amazing how much cigarettes take you away from, because you've got to, you know, nowadays, if you're a cigarette smoker, you know, I'm lucky to be here with you that I could smoke in your area.
But most people would go, go outside.
But I'll tell you a funny story about Johnny Cash and me.
John and I knew each other and I would go down and I would see him in Jamaica and then he got really sick.
But John quit smoking and John and I did, did something for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and another funny story.
We were standing around doing getting ready to do sound check and there was a whole bunch of people playing, a whole bunch of people.
And the Eagles were on sound checking and they were taken forever because John Henley is a perfectionist.
Everything's got to be just right.
And I was standing with John and June and John was getting irritated because we were like 40 minutes.
You know, we'd been standing there ready to sound check for 40 minutes.
So while we were standing there, I was smoking and John goes, you're going to have to quit that smoking, John.
It's going to catch up with you someday.
I said, well, you fucking smoke.
And he goes, well, I used to, but I saw this guy from London and he got me to quit smoking.
I go, maybe I should see that guy.
He goes, okay, yeah, I will.
You will.
Anyway, so anyway, we finally get on to sound check.
And John sound checked without me because I just sang one song with him.
And then when it came time to sound check, I went, you know, John, you know, because he was irritated.
I don't know if you knew Johnny Cash or not.
Yeah.
Fucking temper.
You know, you didn't fuck with John Cash.
You just didn't.
Anyway, I said, you know, John, you know, I got this song.
And we were doing Ring of Fire.
I said, I know that song.
It's easy.
He said, you sure?
And I said, yeah, you know, I got it.
I got it.
He goes, okay, well, thanks.
Because, you know, I'm sick of fucking being here.
So the next night we get up there and John comes and he introduces me to my friend John Mellingham.
he started some I fell into I didn't realize that he had changed the fucking key from him smoking to a lower key so So I couldn't hit the note because it was I fell into, I fell, I couldn't find a fucking note because it was not the note the song was written in.
I sang right along with the song.
And I look over there and there's Chuck Berry going.
And I look over there and there's Springsteen going.
And all these people on the side of the stage, right?
And they're all giving me a look like, you're fucking up, man.
It was like, yeah, I know it.
And so anyway, as soon as the song was over, I ran offstage.
I was totally humiliated, right?
So I ran offstage and got to my trailer.
I just get back there and all of a sudden, knock on the door.
And I answer and it's John.
And he said, can I come in?
And I go, I don't know why you'd want to, but yeah, come on in.
He goes, I told you we should have sound checked.
Anyway, so that conversation led on to, I know this guy who will get you to quit smoking.
And so he gives me all the information.
And me and two other guys fly this guy over from London.
And Joe, here was his solution for not smoking.
He gave me a good talking too.
That's it?
That was it.
I was smoking on the way back to Indiana.
My friend Ron White's been smoking his whole life, and he just stopped.
And he went to a hypnotist.
Same hypnotist.
He quit drinking a few years back, went to a hypnotist, quit drinking easy.
He said it was so easy.
And then just recently, like within last three or four weeks, quit smoking.
He's almost 70.
Just said the hypnotist got him and said now he doesn't have the desire.
He goes, sometimes he goes after sex, he goes after a meal.
Sometimes I have like for a brief second.
I don't have to worry about that.
I'm too old for sex.
I don't have to worry about that anymore.
Well, I guess Ron still gets after it.
Because after that, he said it's just a brief second and then it goes away.
Well, I'll tell you, I was friends with the Newman family, and Paul quit smoking and died.
Right afterwards?
Was the smoking contributing to his health problems?
Yeah.
And it was just like he was older.
It was like, you know, I mean, he was like 80s.
I don't know.
Can you see how old he was when he died?
Anyway, so, you know, I just kind of went.
Find what you love and let it kill you.
Yeah.
Find what you love and let it kill you.
83?
Yeah.
I fucking love that guy.
Hustler, one of my favorite movies of all time.
Well, I'm really good friends with Joanne, who now is.
I love Joanne.
Once Paul died, I became her boyfriend.
And she and I would talk all the time on the phone.
And whenever I was in New York or the town she lives in, north of New York, I'd take her to plays and we'd go to plays and we'd do stuff and I'd pinch her on the ass.
And she'd look at me like...
But then when I would call her and she started calling me Paul, I would have to go, Joanne.
It's not Paul.
I'm just John.
And now she, I still go see her all the time.
Not all the time, not as much as I should.
But she, I can't remember the name the fucking town she lives in.
Anyway, she can't talk.
She can't, you know, she has, what do you call it?
Dementia.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And she can't talk.
And she can, you know, I take my guitar and I'll play and sing for her.
She's a little, God.
But, you know, she's always happy to see me.
I think she realizes that it's me.
But I love her.
I mean, she was just, she was just great.
She was a great woman.
How I met her was at a Democratic thing for, who was the guy that ran for president, John?
John Kerry.
John Kerry.
And it was at Radio City.
And I have a son named HUD.
And Paul Newman starred in the movie HUD.
And so Newman walked in to my address from him and goes, I'm looking for HUD Mellencamp.
And he was with me, but he was running around Radio City somewhere.
Have you ever been to Radio City?
Yes.
Have you ever been backstage?
Mm-hmm.
There's all kind of shit going on.
Yeah.
You can go anywhere in that place.
Anyway, so Hud was running around there and I just let him go wherever he wants.
And I'm sitting there talking to Paul and I think this is pretty cool.
And then Joanne walked in and was like, all right, Newman, hey.
Because she was beautiful.
I mean, Joe, you cannot, she must have been in her late 50s, something like that.
She was gorgeous.
It's like one of the prettiest women I'd ever seen.
And so I just kind of like, well, it's not meeting you, Paul.
Hey, Joanne.
And that's how we became friends.
And even before he died, her and I were talking on the phone.
And, yeah, I love Joanne.
I hope she lives forever, but I know that people take care of her.
It's sad.
It's just hard to see someone in a deteriorated state like that as they get older.
Well, you know, have you ever seen the movie, God, I can't say The Fugitive Kind?
What is it?
The Fugitive Kind.
I don't think so.
Rogan, you got to watch it.
Yeah.
It's great.
You'll love it.
It's called The Fugitive Kind.
It stars Brando and Joanne Woodward.
And it's just such a, written by Tennessee Williams.
It's really, really good.
Really good.
It's one of my favorite movies ever made.
The Fugitive Kind.
I'll check it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I know a lot about old movies because I don't watch new movies.
If it's not in black and white, I'm not watching it.
Really?
Yeah.
Has it always been the case, or is that a new thing?
No.
It's always been the really.
Yeah.
My girlfriend Kristen will talk to me, you know that actor, and I'll go, no.
I don't know anybody in the entertainment business anymore except guys my age.
That's probably a good thing.
But I don't know any of them.
You know, I know Sean, you know, but I've known Sean since he was a kid before Richmond High.
Oh, wow.
That's how long I've known that guy.
Wow.
That was a fucking great movie.
Yeah, it was.
They can't make a comedy like that anymore.
Oh, no, they couldn't even get it.
They wouldn't make it again.
Not a chance.
No.
Not a chance at all.
That's the thing with political correctness and then the woke movement.
That's the thing that really died was the great comedy movies, the inappropriate.
Well, you answer me this question.
Yeah.
Why did anybody give a shit anyway?
I mean, you know, 86, and what was the senator, the guy, the comedian that wrote for Saturday Night Live, who was.
Al Franken?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just said, fuck you guys.
Yeah, should have.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, why did he let some out of it?
The climate got crazy.
People lost their fucking minds.
And I think it's kind of turned around and people are kind of recognizing that it was a massive over-correction.
It was.
But the problem is the comedy films, like if you go back and watch, you know, like Tropical Thunder or any of those kind of crazy movies that were like really outrageous and funny, like, you know, you can't make them today.
Nobody wants to fund them and finance them.
Nobody wants the heat.
Nobody wants to deal with the criticism.
They essentially killed comedy movies.
Well, and that's what I was asking you.
How is doing stand-up?
You can't kill stand-up.
The problem is stand-up is like people will come to see you, and that's all that matters.
People come to see you and they laugh.
That's all that matters.
The critics don't matter.
Who's your favorite stand-up comedian now?
Alive?
There's so many good ones right now.
I mean, Chappelle's probably the greatest, if one of the greatest of all time, and we're lucky we have him alive now.
But, you know, Bill Burr's great.
Shane Gillis.
It's an amazing time for stand-up.
David Tell is probably like the most unheralded great comic that's alive today.
There's so many great comedy, so many great comedians now.
What about Jim Jeffries?
Jim Jeffries is funny.
There's a new Australian guy.
There's more comics now that are huge than I think have ever been alive in the history of comedy because of YouTube and Instagram and definitely Netflix.
Because there's just more comedy to see.
There's more comedy to go watch.
There's more comics right now are selling out arenas than ever in the history of stand-up comedy.
Yeah, I've seen it on television.
You just can't worry about what the haters think.
You can't worry about that.
You just got to just do what you think is funny and what you think the audience is going to think is funny and work real hard at it.
That's all you have to do.
And just don't pay attention to the criticism.
If you do, it'll kill you.
The best stand-up comedian movie I ever saw was the first Richard Pryor.
Oh, Live on the Sunsets Trip changed my life.
Well, that changed my life.
That was the third one.
Was it?
Yeah.
So Wanted was before that, right?
Yeah, and that took place in New Orleans.
Okay, there was one he filmed in Long Beach.
That is the one I'm talking about.
Phenomenal.
Phenomenal.
Unbelievable.
Phenomenal.
Unbelievable.
And while he's getting on stage, people are still coming in and sitting down.
I know.
He's fucking with people as they're coming in and sitting down.
I don't think he had an opening act.
I think he just came on.
No, he did.
He had, yeah, he had the woman's name, the singer.
Oh, he had a musical opening act?
Yeah.
Interesting.
I can't remember who it was, but he thanked him.
He thanked her.
Oh, okay.
But I saw that in like 19, whatever year, it was 79 when it came out, and I was in Florida.
And I had to go into the black part of Miami to see it.
And I took a couple guys in my band with me.
And this one guy named Ferd in my band was just an idiot.
We walk in there, and there's nothing but black people.
So I'm okay.
Except Ferd walks in like this.
And I go, what the fuck are you doing?
What the fuck?
He walked in, grabbing his dick.
Yeah.
Because he wanted to show them that he was Patty De Bell.
Yeah, that's who opened up.
There it is.
Nice.
Yeah.
So anyway, he's grabbing his dick, walking in, and I'm looking at him going, are you out of your fucking mind?
Stop doing that.
My parents took me to see Live on the Sunsets Trip when I was a kid.
I was in high school.
And I guess I was like 15 at the time, something like that.
And I remember looking around at all the people laughing, and I couldn't believe how funny it was.
I couldn't believe how funny it was.
I couldn't believe that this guy could just be on stage talking.
And it would be that funny.
But I'd seen all these comedy movies that were really funny, but nothing ever made me laugh as hard as this one man on stage talking.
I'll never forget it.
I was little.
I was like looking around the crowd and people were just falling out of their seats, laughing, slapping each other.
Couldn't believe how funny it was.
Well, you know the backstory on that?
What was the backstory?
The backstory was that was take two.
Oh, yeah, he bombed the first one.
Yeah.
Well, he, for whatever reason, He decided to do the show backwards.
Oh, wow.
So he started with, you know, how he ended and was going to work his way forward.
And I don't know why he did that, but apparently people that knew him told me that he would always do shit like that.
Well, he was creative.
I had heard that he was working it out at the comedy store, and then he would come in on a Monday night and it was bombing.
And then by Friday night, he was destroying with the same material.
He just figured out a way to tweak it.
You know, that was back when he was working with Paul Mooney.
Paul Mooney was one of his writers who was a guy that I knew really well.
I worked with him at the comedy store.
And so Mooney and him would just figure out what the beats were.
So did you play the comedy store a lot?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that was my home club in L.A.
And how did you go down?
I got in, I auditioned in 1994.
You know, I came from L.A., I came from New York rather to L.A. to do a sitcom.
And I didn't really give a shit about the sitcom.
That wasn't really that important to me.
I was only doing it for money.
But while I was there, I was like, God, I've got to go to the comedy store.
When I lived in Boston, when I first started Stand Up in 88, they would talk about the comedy store like it was a religious experience.
It was like Mecca.
Because this was after Sam Kennison had made it.
Of course, Richard Pryor had come from there.
Bill Hicks had come from there.
David Letterman, so many people had come from there, Robin Williams.
And so they just talked about it with like hushed tones, like, man, you got to get to the comedy store.
It was like a pilgrimage, like you had to get there.
And I got there in 94 and never left, you know, until the pandemic.
Yeah, I was friends with Letterman because he's from Indianapolis.
And his mom used to come down to my house in Bloomington, and we'd have his mom and his stepdad would come down and have dinner with me at my house.
And so Letterman, I did a couple things on Letterman where I cooked a cake with his mom in Indianapolis and brought the cake to David for his birthday.
And I like Letterman.
He's always been nice to me.
And his mom told me a story.
I don't know if it's true or not, but I had just released my first album and David was still doing the weather locally in Indianapolis.
Oh, wow.
And he said to his mom, if that kid can go out and do it, I can too.