March 27, 2025 - The Joe Rogan Experience
02:46:35
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| You've had a crazy fucking life, man. | ||
| Like, a really crazy life. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's what I'm saying. | |
| So, to get everybody up to speed right from the beginning, you spent 25 years undercover working for the FBI in the Klan, Nazi organizations, and biker gangs. | ||
| And then some, yes sir. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What a crazy, crazy life that is. | |
| First of all, how did you first get started doing that? | ||
| Good question. | ||
| I grew up in South Carolina, played ball, all that stuff. | ||
| I was always kind of a, I mean, if you look back, not trying to be cocky, whatever, because that's not it. | ||
| You've had plenty of people on this show that are complete badasses. | ||
| But I was kind of a bully of bullies. | ||
| I always looked out. | ||
| I liked the underdog. | ||
| I bounced in college, so I was already learning that gift of gab and fight techniques and stuff like that. | ||
| And then I became a cop because when I was in college, I took a course. | ||
| I'm taking electives. | ||
| I went to college so I'd have four more years to figure out what I was going to do because I didn't know what I was doing. | ||
| Except partying. | ||
| I did three years. | ||
| I was good at partying. | ||
| I hit an elective that was criminal justice, and man, I really liked it. | ||
| Psychology was always a strong thing for me, but it took a back seat, and I ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology. | ||
| But during those criminal justice courses, I was like, at first, for a fleeting moment, I said, I'm going to be an attorney. | ||
| Yeah, I'll be an attorney. | ||
| And then I realized I'd be a terrible attorney. | ||
| I said, because if I was the defense attorney and they said they did it, I would probably just walk up and go, they did it. | ||
| Right? That's not going to get me any clients. | ||
| And if I was the prosecutor, I pictured me being like Sam Kennison, grabbing him and going, say it! | ||
| Say it! | ||
|
unidentified
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You did it! | |
| So I'm like, yeah, that's probably not the best role for me. | ||
| And I did a ride-along with cops at the department, and that was it. | ||
| But once I got in to law enforcement, I was uniformed patrol for three years. | ||
| I was just so fascinated with undercover. | ||
| I don't know what it was. | ||
| I can't really remember doing the book. | ||
| I've tried to dive back in. | ||
| People ask. | ||
| I don't really remember. | ||
| I just know that I loved undercover movies, period. | ||
| If it was a biker undercover, I don't care how cheesy it was. | ||
| I love them all. | ||
| And then one of my mentors at the sheriff's office, he was actually the world's strongest man in the late 80s, after Kaz Meyer. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, wow. | |
| He was a former Marine. | ||
| Big dude. | ||
| And he, as a task force, had gone undercover in some biker gangs. | ||
| I wanted to be a biker. | ||
| I grew up on motorcycles and it just started taking off from there. | ||
| You've got to think that biker gangs are probably super suspicious of people being undercover because it's such a theme. | ||
| You think? | ||
| It's been around forever, the stories of guys infiltrating biker gangs. | ||
| It's been around forever. | ||
| 40 plus years right now. | ||
| Easy. Wow. | ||
| Yeah. And then there's books made. | ||
| There's books made. | ||
| They go to court. | ||
| They learn. | ||
| Yeah. So it was right after the Vietnam War, right? | ||
| That's when all the biker gangs really started kicking off. | ||
| I think it goes back to World War. | ||
| I mean, my history's bad, but I think it goes back to World War at least two, right? | ||
| Really? Because all those, the way it goes, everybody always asks what a one percenter is. | ||
| And it goes back, I think it's 1947, but it goes back to when your veterans are getting out. | ||
| They had no decompression back then. | ||
| They had no plans or programs for them. | ||
| And they've been out here living this raucous, rowdy life. | ||
| And now they're back in the States. | ||
| And now they're supposed to just flip and be like... | ||
| So they started creating these clubs. | ||
| And they were doing some raucous and rowdy stuff. | ||
| And then it was the president... | ||
| Of the American Motorcycle Association, they came out and made this statement that said something to the effect of, listen, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good, law-abiding citizens. | ||
| There's only 1% that's bad. | ||
| And they took that as a badge of honor and said, we're 1%ers. | ||
| Wow. Yeah. | ||
| Cool stuff. | ||
| Cool stuff. | ||
| So who was the first person to infiltrate them? | ||
| Do you know the history of that? | ||
| No, I don't. | ||
| So it's been going on forever. | ||
| As soon as they found out. | ||
| It's been the case with the mob. | ||
| It's been the case with everything. | ||
| Sure. Donnie Brasco. | ||
| Yep. My mentor. | ||
| One of my... | ||
| Really? Yeah. | ||
| Joe Pistone? | ||
| Absolutely. Oh, wow. | ||
| He helped certify me. | ||
| I saw him probably within the last six months or so. | ||
| Graciously, he did a blurb on the book, too. | ||
| Oh, wow. | ||
| I call him boss man, you know. | ||
| So do you remember your first undercover assignment? | ||
| Yes, yeah. | ||
| What did you have to do? | ||
| It was at the sheriff's office. | ||
| So after three years of uniform, I make it to narcotics investigator. | ||
| Well, it's a tough crowd, but we're funny. | ||
| It's just like a good military group or anything else. | ||
| There's going to be a lot of ribbon and stuff like that. | ||
| So they said, hey, you're going to go buy some dope tonight. | ||
| It's my first time. | ||
| Now, granted, I bought weed and stuff in high school, and I was around those groups, but I never bought crack cocaine. | ||
| I was already probably 6'4", and I probably was about 270 pounds. | ||
| I did not look like I smoked crack unless I just fell off the wagon. | ||
| Just real research. | ||
| Or I just started, yeah. | ||
| I'm the vegan that shows up still smelling like beef. | ||
| I just stopped. | ||
| But they told me, hey, it's real easy. | ||
| You're just going to roll down to this corner. | ||
| It's a drug trafficking area. | ||
| You're going to roll down there. | ||
| White boy, you're going to roll down the window. | ||
| They're going to come up to you and say, what do you want? | ||
| And back then it was a 20. You just get a rock. | ||
| 20 bucks for a rock. | ||
| And say, all you got to do is hold that 20 and say, you just want a 20. Joe, I drove down there. | ||
| I know I was scared because I was out of my comfort zone. | ||
| But I was also scared to make a fool of myself in front of the narcotics guys and gals that were training me. | ||
| And I roll down the street and I pull up and they come running up to the window. | ||
| What you want? | ||
| What you want? | ||
| I crack the window. | ||
| I crack it about this far, and I stick a 20 like I'm trying to go to a vending machine. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm like, I want a 20, you know? | |
| And the dude's like, he takes the 20, but he can't hand me the crack rock back to the cracked window. | ||
| He's like, roll the damn window down. | ||
| And I'm like, my bad. | ||
| It's probably like a sliver of soap. | ||
| Who knows? | ||
| But that was my first drug buy. | ||
| First undercover. | ||
| Like, legit. | ||
| And so what was the protocol? | ||
| Like, you had to buy the drug, and then what do you do? | ||
| It depends, a case-by-case basis. | ||
| We may want to make numerous buys on that corner, try to come in with the jump-out boys, they used to call them, and shut that corner down for a while. | ||
| We may be trying to make buys on the low-level people, on the corner selling, who are probably most likely users, at least in my experience. | ||
| So maybe like every five crack rocks they sold, they can peel one for themselves. | ||
| And maybe we want to get them, build a case on them, kind of try to climb it up. | ||
| And then find out who's the distributor. | ||
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| And that was like the state and local. | ||
| Everybody's a little different, but three buys hit them with a search warrant kind of thing, something like that. | ||
| And ultimately, so when you're doing this, You're buying. | ||
| You're trying to develop some sort of a relationship or an understanding of how this thing goes down. | ||
| How do you get to who's selling it to them? | ||
| Do you have to arrest them first? | ||
| You can. | ||
| There's all kinds of ways, but you can do like a wall-off. | ||
| In other words, not let everybody see us pick you off, you know? | ||
| So you don't get burned, bring you in, talk to you, and this is what we got on you. | ||
| We're trying to figure out who it is, and it's just traditional law enforcement. | ||
| You're trying to find more intel and work your way up. | ||
| And you offer them a community or something like that? | ||
| Depends. Some people do it out of the goodness of their heart. | ||
| Really? Yeah. | ||
| I mean, it's rare, but I mean, you can do it. | ||
| Hey, I'm patriotic. | ||
| I want to help clean this up. | ||
| These people are trying to sell me dope. | ||
| I don't like them. | ||
| I can go buy it for you. | ||
| A lot of times we're paying a source or | ||
| They could be working off a charge. | ||
| It could be part of their plea agreement. | ||
| So this is your first one. | ||
| You get comfortable doing that, and then how often are you doing this? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I mean, we could come in. | ||
| Let's just say there's six investigators on Northern or Southern Command narcotics in Greenville County. | ||
| You might be one of my partners, and we come in, and you go, hey, I got a source. | ||
| He's going to go make a buy tonight. | ||
| You might hop in the car with him. | ||
| It just happens. | ||
| Almost a daily thing. | ||
| And so you develop your skills doing this. | ||
| You get real good at being undercover. | ||
| And then how do you move on to the big boys? | ||
| How do you move on to biker gangs, Nazis? | ||
| I got hired by the FBI. | ||
| Wow. And was it specifically because you were good at undercover shit? | ||
| No. You see a picture of me. | ||
| This is me, but for the Academy, I mean, it's a cheesy, thin... | ||
| Fuzzy mustache. | ||
| Can't go past the crease of your lip high and tight. | ||
| You're going to get your hair cut at the PX in Quantico. | ||
| It was usually foreign ladies that were cutting your hair. | ||
| No matter how I explained what I wanted, I got the same haircut every time. | ||
| You take it up a little bit here and not so much here. | ||
| Oh, yeah, yeah. | ||
| You're like, all right. | ||
| There you go. | ||
| I guess this is what we're doing. | ||
| But one thing I noticed at the state level was we would all go back then. | ||
| The South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy is in Columbia, South Carolina. | ||
| So we would go there and get certified. | ||
| But in your county, I mean, how many ways can I shape? | ||
| I'm in the same county, and you're going out here making buys. | ||
| How many times can I change my car, change my outfit, change my facial hair, the hair on my head, until everybody starts knowing I'm a narc? | ||
| Because when you're in that local environment, and I mean, I'm talking Greenville, South Carolina, Miami might be a little bit different, or New York City, but... | ||
| You're going to court a lot, and people are seeing you in court. | ||
| So how do you roll out there? | ||
| So a lot of it turns into just running sources. | ||
| To me, I believe developing and running sources is hand-in-hand with Undercover because other than them not being a bonded law enforcement officer, and I don't have a felon on my record, but they do, they're still the ones we're wiring up and going in to get the evidence. | ||
| So a lot of it over the last... | ||
| Many years with the defund the police and the black eye, it's hard to recruit. | ||
| It's hard enough to get people to fill the uniform slots, so you really don't have anybody doing undercover. | ||
| Most of your smaller departments that I've taught or talked to or learned from, they're just running sources. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Really? So this all stopped during defund of the police, like the George Floyd times? | |
| Yeah, a lot of it. | ||
| Yeah, it's the pendulum swings, right? | ||
| Or it could be that because generations are different these days, people come to apply and they've got felons on their record. | ||
| And we're like, bro, you can't be a cop. | ||
| You've got a felon on your record, you know? | ||
| But I remember thinking, wouldn't it be kind of cool? | ||
| If South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy had all of the certified undercovers in some type of database where it says, hey, Scott's skill set is biker, you know, riding motorcycles can go in a biker bar, whatever, strip clubs, this, that, and the other. | ||
| Maybe Charleston County needs somebody. | ||
| Wouldn't that be cool if I could just shoot down there and make buys for Charleston County but go back? | ||
| Then that way nobody knows me in Charleston County. | ||
| Right. And when I got in the FBI, that's kind of what they do. | ||
| You get certified in the FBI and you can go around the world. | ||
| So what was your initial job in the FBI? | ||
| You are a case agent. | ||
| When you get hired, the only responsibility you have, really, is you're a case agent. | ||
| And that means you investigate, you do your own cases. | ||
| I did that the entire career. | ||
| Even when I was doing Undercover, I was still a case agent. | ||
| But I went through the academy. | ||
| I got New York City as my first office, and New York is the largest office, so they put you kind of like on a rotation. | ||
| You don't just go straight to A squad. | ||
| You're going to be like, they want you to learn the city. | ||
| They want you to learn the ins and outs of having a placard and the bus lane and all that stuff. | ||
| Or just how to figure out how to get into the damn Lincoln Tunnel when six lanes go like that, you know? | ||
| But eventually, I went through the rotation, and I got placed on the Columbian Drug Squad. | ||
| So there... | ||
| Then people start learning you were certified undercover at a state level and this, that, and the other. | ||
| So then there might be something like, say, L.A. takes off a 3,000, and we're talking like 2001-ish, 2,000, somewhere in there. | ||
| So they take off, say, 3,000 pounds of weed in L.A., and it was supposed to come to New York. | ||
| Well, we go with them and say, man, can you send us all the stuff? | ||
| They're cutting leads to us saying, hey, it was supposed to go to this address. | ||
| We've got to build the exact replica box. | ||
| And it depends on the U.S. attorney working the case. | ||
| They may want an assistant United States attorney. | ||
| They may want to just deliver it, and that's good enough. | ||
| Some may want us to deliver it. | ||
| Pull away, and then they've got a hidden switch or something that notifies us when they open it, just to make that case tighter. | ||
| So I started doing cameos on stuff like that, and then I landed in Undercover, which I don't really talk about in the book because it's classified, and we are coming up on 25 years, which is usually when they declassify them. | ||
| It's kind of been outed, but I just don't talk about it because I don't want to end up in the box, the lie detector, and have somebody beating me down. | ||
| But I landed that Undercover, And after about 30 days in San Antonio, they gave me another 60-day extension and I became the primary. | ||
| And because I was there full-time working undercover, they transferred me to the San Antonio division. | ||
| So the first undercover gig, what was your job? | ||
| What were you pretending to do? | ||
| The classified one? | ||
| Again, it's classified. | ||
| But I will say this. | ||
| I was a security guard. | ||
| Can you imagine being a cop with a cool uniform? | ||
| With a real gun on your hip. | ||
| And now I'm making it to the FBI and I'm working third shift as a night at the museum, you know, with a flashlight. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, wow. | |
| But I wanted to get my foot in the door of the undercover program and sometimes it was easier to get a slot in the undercover school if you were already in or slated for an undercover. | ||
| And so you eventually work your way up to probably more and more dangerous and complicated assignments? | ||
| What happens, at least in my experience, what happened with me is I get certified. | ||
| Our certification school is very, very intense. | ||
| I mean, I don't know what they're doing now, but I'm 99.9% sure it's still very intense. | ||
| It's two weeks, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation. | ||
| Not going to give away all the scenarios and stuff for tradecraft reasons, but let's just say that I got certified in 2002. | ||
| In 2003, I started role-playing and assisting at the school. | ||
| I probably missed a handful of schools up until the day I retired. | ||
| Never 100% graduation rate. | ||
| I don't know of any 100% graduation rate before I got into the program. | ||
| And it's not hazing. | ||
| You get 20 slots. | ||
| So it's four groups of five. | ||
| And generally, it goes like you get some trainings during the day. | ||
| And then we're running scenarios and we're putting you into live stuff. | ||
| But day three and four, when you're really hurting for sleep, I've seen people nut out. | ||
| And mine are in psych. | ||
| I didn't think I would see that because some of them I might know. | ||
| Maybe we were on the SWAT team together. | ||
| Maybe I know you as a case agent and you're squared away. | ||
| But you go to the UC school and after about three days of no sleep and not getting your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in. | ||
| One of my buddies walked in. | ||
| He looked like he'd been raped by a tribe. | ||
| He walked in, hair disheveled, buttons not lined up, zipper undone, half a shirt tail. | ||
| I'm like, are you okay? | ||
| And some people, it's just... | ||
| I would say that the reason the training is like that, it's not hazing. | ||
| It's just so we don't lose anybody. | ||
| We try to make it as real as you can. | ||
| Well, you've got to find out who's going to crack. | ||
| Yeah, and think of this. | ||
| In a real... | ||
| Not all undercovers are like this, but in the ones I would usually do, there's going to be a lot of times with no sleep. | ||
| My skill set led me not to Wall Street. | ||
| It didn't lead me to the yacht. | ||
| It didn't lead me to the mafia club unless I was standing in the corner and I was muscled for the mafia guy. | ||
| It led me to the woods and what you already mentioned, crazy, crazy ass meth heads or just ideologies. | ||
| So I get certified and then... | ||
| I go back and roleplay, and that's when people start kind of seeing, and you're trying to make a name for yourself. | ||
| I wasn't getting calls, because on paper, I'm a white guy with no foreign language. | ||
| But about every week or so, I would call the undercover unit and be like, hey, you got anything? | ||
| Hey, it's big country. | ||
| You got anything? | ||
| More medium now. | ||
| I could even be little country at this point. | ||
| But I'd be like, hey, you got anything for any rednecks with no foreign language? | ||
| And I'd just wear them down until they'd laugh, and then they finally asked me to come to school. | ||
| And once you do the school, now there's seasoned undercovers coming back. | ||
| And they're not only there to role play and to run a school, they're also looking for undercovers for cases in their own divisions. | ||
| And that's where I kind of started getting into some things. | ||
| It has to be one of the most exciting. | ||
| For me, absolutely. | ||
| It has to be so crazy. | ||
| I mean, at the end of the day, military, first responder, type A personality, we're adrenaline junkies. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah, and that's got to be a gigantic rush. | |
| Yeah. They're on to us. | ||
| I've talked to a few guys that have done that kind of work, and they always speak of it with sort of fond memories. | ||
| Well, crazy it is. | ||
| It's weird. | ||
| It's like it's a very particular type of person that would want to put themselves in that highly stressful, adrenaline-charged situation where, you know, any mistake and they find out who you really are, you're dead. | ||
| Could be. | ||
| Yeah. Yeah. | ||
| Now you made me second-guess my career. | ||
| Seems like it worked out. | ||
| I'm going to call Cash now. | ||
| I'll call Cash. | ||
| Hey, you think I can come back in? | ||
| What was the first one that you got, the first assignment that you got where you're like, oh boy, this is big leagues? | ||
| That was the Outlaws case. | ||
| I'd already done some undercovers again in the FBI. | ||
| I'd done several street-level things, or numerous, whatever, at the state level. | ||
| But I was doing a couple of cases in the FBI, and they were smaller. | ||
| Maybe it was supposed to be... | ||
| Interstate transportation of stolen goods, and it turned into a public corruption case. | ||
| But when I landed the outlaws case, that was my first big and probably one of the biggest I did. | ||
| So how does that go? | ||
| How did that start? | ||
| I'm not a smart man, so that's how it started. | ||
| Why do you do this, Scott? | ||
| I go, I'm not smart. | ||
| I am stupid. | ||
| I'm a glutton for punishment. | ||
| And my last name is Payne. | ||
| In that case, they'll do canvases. | ||
| A lot of times, I was an undercover coordinator. | ||
| Every division has an undercover coordinator, so you are the front line on all things covert, and you're the liaison between headquarters and that field office. | ||
| So if I had a case come up, I may already know you or whoever and be like, hey, I'll just put a text out to you. | ||
| You interested? | ||
| Or we may just send out a canvas, and then a canvas comes from headquarters and goes to every undercover coordinator. | ||
| And if it gets to the point to where no certified undercovers have responded, then they'll do like a bureau-wide canvas and see what we can get. | ||
| I can't remember exactly. | ||
| If somebody called me on that one, I'm pretty sure. | ||
| I don't remember that outlaws being a canvas, but it possibly could have been. | ||
| Well, you fit the bill. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| You look like an outlaw by your... | ||
| It depends. | ||
| Slash Viking, whatever. | ||
| Yeah. It depends. | ||
| See, that's what a lot of people... | ||
| I'll get off on a tangent, but throughout my career, My mentors, my peers, people I've been blessed to mentor, some people come up in the office, very good friends, unbelievable agents. | ||
| I mean, brainiacs, awesome. | ||
| They'll be like, man, I can never do what you do. | ||
| My beard would be down to here, whatever, tatted up. | ||
| And I'm like, well, don't do me. | ||
| What's your background? | ||
| And they're like, well, I was an accountant. | ||
| And I'm like, with who? | ||
| Before they had been, I was an accountant with Disney or whatever. | ||
| I was this. | ||
| I was a lawyer. | ||
| Will you be you? | ||
| I can... | ||
| Somebody's probably going to be pissed because they're going to say it's tradecraft. | ||
| But listen, I could bring you in and you just walk into the group. | ||
| I'm the primary. | ||
| I've already laid all this stuff out. | ||
| It's a chess game. | ||
| We're always trying to stay four or five moves ahead. | ||
| Or master of puppets. | ||
| I'm just trying to connect with people and work the scene. | ||
| But you come in and you dress as an accountant and you talk like an accountant and then you walk out. | ||
| You're you. | ||
| It's real. | ||
|
unidentified
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So there's roles for all sorts of different types of personalities and life skills. | |
| Yeah, and I'm like, you might see something where they say, I need a person this tall that speaks this language, that does this and knows this, but what are you trying to do? | ||
| Essentially, the FBI works everything. | ||
| And if a target, if we have predication, or predicated target, or there's information coming in about somebody doing something nefarious, if we want to do an undercover, How do I get close to you? | ||
| I mean, what do you find attractive? | ||
| Usually it's money in the criminal world. | ||
| It's green, right? | ||
| You can see the Mexican mafia working with the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. | ||
| They hate each other, but they love green. | ||
| And one needs guns and one needs dope and, you know, it all in the criminal world. | ||
| But for that case, I went up, I got interviewed. | ||
| By, of course, the FBI. | ||
| There were task forces there. | ||
| DEA was there. | ||
| ATF was there. | ||
| And they had been working this case for a while. | ||
| And generally, this is the way it would work for me on these long-term type undercovers. | ||
| The case team's been working this for a long time, a year plus. | ||
| They've been building intelligence. | ||
| Now, they've got some evidence already, maybe a seizure of dope here, report of a carjacking here. | ||
| But to get that airtight case and to find out what's really going on, Now they're at the point to where they can use the investigative technique, which is undercover. | ||
| And we came up with a plan. | ||
| And I went in cold. | ||
| I tried to bump them, as we say, a cold bump. | ||
| But I went into a bar that they frequented. | ||
| I went there when they weren't there. | ||
| It was a strip club. | ||
| I used to bounce at strip clubs. | ||
| In the book, I make a joke because I call them a gentleman's club, but then I say that's an oxymoron because I'm like, everyone I've been in, there's not a lot of gentlemen in there, and that includes me back in the whatever days they were. | ||
| But I knew how they work, so I went in there and I just started hanging out. | ||
| And, of course, this accident in Boston, Massachusetts, I'm getting noticed as soon as I start talking. | ||
| Where the hell are you from? | ||
| And I kind of worked that. | ||
| And started working the bar, doing what I do. | ||
| Everybody has their own way. | ||
| And let me say this, since it's at the beginning. | ||
| Listen, for me, I want people to know it comes from a humble spot. | ||
| There are men and women out there that have done way more undercovers than me. | ||
| They have been through more harrowing things than me. | ||
| I already said, I've got mentors, I've got peers, I've got people I've been blessed to mentor. | ||
| Some of them don't want to talk. | ||
| Some of them haven't had the opportunity. | ||
| So just know it's coming from a... | ||
| A love kind of place. | ||
| Got it. | ||
| So when you say you work in the bar, what do you mean? | ||
| You just like making friends with people there? | ||
| What I did last night here in Austin. | ||
| Same thing. | ||
| Isn't it like old habits die hard? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. It's like catch and release? | |
| You're like pretending? | ||
| Yeah, it's still working your gab. | ||
| That's interesting. | ||
| So you're always working your skill set, even though you're not on the job anymore. | ||
| Yeah, I know. | ||
| I love connecting with people. | ||
| I don't care whether you're smart, stupid, big. | ||
| You know, skinny, fat, any ethnicity, it doesn't matter. | ||
| And that's one thing I do miss about the job. | ||
| I miss getting called out at 2 in the morning for the craziest of the crazies. | ||
| And you show up to do an interview, and essentially, I befriend you, and you either confess, or we find out you really weren't doing anything. | ||
| I do remember one night, this wasn't undercover, but they called me because towards the end of my career, I was doing nothing but... | ||
| Mainly domestic terrorism. | ||
| And they call me. | ||
| They go, we got one down here. | ||
| He's a white supremacist. | ||
| He's assaulted a cop, this, that, and the other. | ||
| Well, I get down there. | ||
| It's like 3, 4 in the morning now. | ||
| I do my spiel. | ||
| I'm not screaming at the guy. | ||
| Man, you need something to drink. | ||
| Here, man, you look cold. | ||
| Here's a coat. | ||
| So tell me about what happened. | ||
| I'm not here for this other stuff. | ||
| And I start talking. | ||
| Well, somewhere in there, I'm like, okay, this guy's not a white supremacist. | ||
| He's a sovereign citizen. | ||
| Man, he's just anti-government. | ||
| Pro-sheriff. | ||
| Elected. But anti-government. | ||
| Sovereign citizens, I really can't stand to deal with them. | ||
| It's like absurdity to the max. | ||
| Can you explain sovereign citizens to people? | ||
| You see it all over YouTube. | ||
| They get pulled over and I don't need a driver's license. | ||
| I'm in commerce. | ||
| I'm in transit. | ||
| If they touch you, well, that's rape. | ||
| They think they've got $100,000. | ||
| I'm going to forget it, but it's like $175,000, $250,000 being held by the government for each person. | ||
| It's crazy. | ||
| They'll start putting liens on people. | ||
| People put on training. | ||
| So when it first started happening, a cop pulls you over and they see like this thing signed in blood and the paperwork looks legit, but I never got that training. | ||
| Is this legit? | ||
| You know, I guess I can't pull this guy over. | ||
| Then you start diving in. | ||
| You start getting the training. | ||
| These people are full of crap. | ||
| And then you see the cops popping the window and dragging them out of the car. | ||
| You're still going. | ||
| But this guy was a sovereign citizen. | ||
| He had a brother. | ||
| We're talking, and he's telling me this stuff, and the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence, and I'm like, yeah, yeah. | ||
| And I said, but how do you know that's what the forefathers meant when they signed that? | ||
| And he said, because I was there, son. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, boy. | |
| And that's when I went. | ||
| Oh, he's not just a sovereign citizen. | ||
| He's a kook. | ||
| He's crazy. | ||
| Why did it take me this long to find out? | ||
| He said I was there? | ||
| Yeah, like this. | ||
| He goes, because I didn't miss a beat. | ||
| I go, how do you know? | ||
| Because I was there, son. | ||
| And I went, there. | ||
| Oh, you've been reincarnated about four or five times. | ||
| Oh, boy. | ||
| And I'm like, and you got this life this time? | ||
| You got the one you're living right now this time? | ||
| Well, you're talking to me at four in the morning. | ||
| You look like you've had a rough life. | ||
| If I was going to buy into reincarnation, I'd want to come back as maybe like my mom's dog or something like that. | ||
| Something cool. | ||
| Yeah, something good. | ||
| Just a great life. | ||
| Sleep, eat, and play. | ||
| So back to the outlaws thing. | ||
| I go in. | ||
| And I'm just shooting the shit. | ||
| I'm just working the bar. | ||
| I'm telling jokes. | ||
| You get a crowd of people around you. | ||
| And that's not trade crowd. | ||
| I mean, that's just me, right? | ||
| And by the way, for the listeners who may not know, little intervention. | ||
| If you buy all your friends all their drinks and their food all the time, they're probably not your friends. | ||
| You know what I mean? | ||
| I got all kinds of friends. | ||
| Those aren't your friends. | ||
| Stop paying. | ||
| They won't come around anymore. | ||
| But that's kind of what I was doing. | ||
| And then now we get to the night to where the outlaws are leaving their clubhouse. | ||
| And for the listeners that don't know, in the biker world, especially the 1%er world, there's a mandatory meeting every week at a clubhouse, and they refer to it as church. | ||
| So they're leaving church. | ||
| I get the surveillance team telling me, hey, man, we're leaving church. | ||
| I'm like, cool. | ||
| I'm at the bar. | ||
| Already the foxy lady in Brockton, Massachusetts. | ||
| That's a rough town. | ||
| Right? And marvelous Marvin Hagler. | ||
| Yeah, yes sir. | ||
| I'd go for a jog and I'd go home. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, yeah. | |
| But... They tell me they're coming. | ||
| Now, the intelligence that they had provided me when we started getting this case together, I was like, hey, man, can they wear their colors, their cuts, their leathers in the bar? | ||
| And they said, no, they don't allow that. | ||
| And I'm thinking in my mind, well, that makes my approach easier because I'm not a tattooed guy watching naked women listening to heavy metal and drinking next to a guy who's watching naked women and heavy metal drinking. | ||
| They had that part wrong because about 13, 15 outlaws come walking into the bar. | ||
| Take the whole back bar. | ||
| They're all wearing their colors. | ||
| Does that change my approach? | ||
| I think it does. | ||
| Unless you want me to go up, and as I say when I'm teaching this, I go up and I go, hey, you boys right? | ||
| Nothing? No? | ||
| Alright, fine. | ||
| I'm going to go back on the other side of the bar. | ||
| Please don't beat my ass. | ||
| So I just was being loud and boisterous. | ||
| Me, that's what I do. | ||
| It doesn't always work for undercovers. | ||
| Some people don't like it, but it's my personality. | ||
| Are you allowed to get drunk? | ||
| Boy, that's a tricky question. | ||
| Yes, I can drink. | ||
| But here's the thing. | ||
| Let's say that outlaws case. | ||
| That was two years. | ||
| So there's two years of recordings of you seeing me turn a Jack and Coke up, right? | ||
| I'm anal. | ||
| Even though I look and sound like trash on paper, I'm pretty tight. | ||
| And I wanted to be good. | ||
| I wanted to always get better and be more well-rounded. | ||
| So I would watch. | ||
| And even if I caught myself at five in the morning, six in the morning, slurring, as I'm listening to it, I'd be like, dadgummit, man. | ||
| And then I'd listen, and within five minutes, I'd be back. | ||
| Because you've got to remember, all that could be played in front of a jury. | ||
| And if I'm on there slurring and saying a bunch of stupid stuff, I mean, how does that affect my articulation for what I was doing? | ||
| But was my alcohol tolerance very high? | ||
| You're a big dude. | ||
| You probably put some away. | ||
| I did. | ||
| I kind of still do. | ||
| I'll tell you what put me on a three-month timeout was CPI. | ||
| Really? Yeah, because you go down there and you get the stem cells. | ||
| Let's explain it. | ||
| We're talking about the Cellular Performance Institute that my friends run down in Tijuana. | ||
| Absolutely. Great, great facility. | ||
| I will tell you, my previous hospital visit before I went to Tijuana, I almost died. | ||
| I had a hip replacement, and I got sepsis, and I almost died. | ||
| So 14 days after my total hip replacement. | ||
| Quickest surgery I've ever had. | ||
| About 30 minutes. | ||
| Chop the femur off, drill it, pop. | ||
| They're walking you out. | ||
| You're still very high on all your... | ||
| They're like, if you can walk, you can go home. | ||
| And I'm like, I can't walk? | ||
| But apparently something happened. | ||
| It got infected. | ||
| So 14 days later, I had sepsis, and they got it under control, and they went back in and cleaned me all out. | ||
| I had two hip surgeries in 14 days. | ||
| So now I'm going to Tijuana, knowing what I know about working the border. | ||
| Even though I'm friends with Ed and Scotty, the owners, and I'm like, man, now I'm going by myself. | ||
| Best hospital stay I've ever had. | ||
| TPS is great. | ||
| It's phenomenal. | ||
| It's an amazing place. | ||
| Phenomenal. But what I stopped, cut back on my drinking is I got down there. | ||
| You can't drink the week before, especially if you're getting the IV stem cells because they travel through your body and they grab stuff. | ||
| So if you drink and it sees your liver working harder, it's going to go to your liver. | ||
| So you're kind of wasting the shots. | ||
| I knew I couldn't drink the week before. | ||
| I got there and they go, yes, you can't drink for three more months. | ||
| And I went, three months? | ||
| And they're like, I said, ain't nobody told me that. | ||
| And I was like, and I immediately went, I need to cut back anyway. | ||
| That's fine. | ||
| But yeah, tolerance was high for them. | ||
| But you have to be drinking with these folks when you're hanging out with them. | ||
| You don't have to. | ||
| But this will go back to an explanation of the undercover school. | ||
| If you're going to drink, we want you to drink in a controlled environment when you're tired. | ||
| Because we want you to see how you feel. | ||
| We also want to see how you behave when you're extremely tired and you're plastered. | ||
| Right? So you have to know that. | ||
| In other words, you don't want to find out in the middle of the clubhouse that you can't handle your shit. | ||
| Right. So, yeah. | ||
| You can drink, but you're being recorded. | ||
| So be wary about it. | ||
| What about drug use? | ||
| Is this tradecraft or not? | ||
| Maybe this is the easiest way to say it. | ||
| If I believe my life is in danger, and like literally, I'm getting ready to die, I will snort the lacquer finish off of this damn table. | ||
| And then I'll be like, is that all you got? | ||
| You want me to do some more? | ||
| Right. Because I really don't feel like dying right now. | ||
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| And then I need to get to the team. | ||
| I need to get out. | ||
| I need to get to the case team. | ||
| And I need to get to an emergency room to make sure I'm not ODing. | ||
| Especially today with fentanyl and stuff. | ||
| But that's kind of the general rule. | ||
| I would say it's probably not a good idea for you to do drugs. | ||
| Just without answering it completely, let me give you this. | ||
| You're going to trial. | ||
| We've got a two-year case against you. | ||
| And I'm up here articulating what I did. | ||
| It's in my documents. | ||
| It's in the recordings. | ||
| And we have built this case. | ||
| Usually, with undercover cases, in my experience, the evidence is so overwhelming, the only thing the defense can claim is entrapment, which you should be able to shoot that down pretty quick if you've done your due diligence, or they try to make you look like a piece of trash on the stand. | ||
| So imagine if they're saying, well, he did dope with us. | ||
| You need to be able to articulate, did you? | ||
| Why did you? | ||
| That's more movie stuff. | ||
| It does happen on levels, and I wish it didn't, but it happens on levels where people don't have training. | ||
| And that's sad, because there have been plenty of people, let's just use biker gangs. | ||
| From law enforcement. | ||
| From local small department all the way up to feds that have infiltrated biker gangs that have patched and gotten their colors. | ||
| But the cases went to crap. | ||
| They lost themselves. | ||
| They lost their marriage. | ||
| They became addicted to drugs. | ||
| So we shouldn't be... | ||
| There's no case worth that. | ||
| That's the best way to say it. | ||
| There's no case worth you getting addicted to drugs or endangering yourself. | ||
| Just walk. | ||
| So what is the dance of getting to the bar, becoming a regular? | ||
| And then eventually getting to know these guys. | ||
| So that first night, I'm being loud and boisterous, and they did say that there was one particular member who loved to be the center of attention, and he loved to be surrounded by big dudes. | ||
| Take that for what you want. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I didn't dive too deep into that one, but when you say hang out with big dudes, surrounded. | ||
| Are we wearing clothes? | ||
| Why is there a jar of Vaseline over there? | ||
| What kind of party is this? | ||
| What's with the cameras? | ||
| Hey, Scott, have a drink of this before you come in here. | ||
| And sign this NDA. | ||
| What? So I start befriending them, and I'm being loud. | ||
| Let me take it back. | ||
| I'm being loud. | ||
| This guy did like attention. | ||
| He sees it, and he's like, Hey! | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hey! Where the F are you from? | |
| So I fire some stupid comedy thing back, and we start going back and forth, because he's already asked the bartenders, who the hell's that guy? | ||
| Oh, that's Tex. | ||
| He comes up here all the time from Texas. | ||
| I don't come up here all the time. | ||
| That's human nature. | ||
| It's like, you know, you caught a fish this big, by the tenth person you're telling, man, there was like ten of them. | ||
| I had to fight them off with my pinkies. | ||
| But... I get called over. | ||
| I don't know who sent a drink to who first, but he calls me over and just starts shooting the shit with me. | ||
| And from then, he pretty much invites me to one of their Northeast regionals called Lobster Fest, held in Brockton at that clubhouse. | ||
| And we were kind of on the way. | ||
| There was a guy who was not patched, and his name was Scott as well. | ||
| I said the name of the book. | ||
| It's all adjudicated. | ||
| It's all in the court proceedings and stuff. | ||
| But Scott Town was his name, and he was a big dude. | ||
| He was jacked. | ||
| And he came in. | ||
| I'm in great shape. | ||
| I'm being me. | ||
| I'm talking, shooting the shit. | ||
| Not hanging out too much. | ||
| I walk back over, play a little, you know, you come chase me kind of thing. | ||
| So I go to the bathroom and nobody's in there. | ||
| For the listeners that don't know men's bathrooms and bars, usually at the urinal, there's some kind of box plexiglass with some kind of ads like, hey, this person's coming next week, that stuff. | ||
| So as I'm peeing, I'm looking at the reflection, and I see the door swing open, and I see this jacked dude, Scott. | ||
| It must have made an impression, because in the report, I even say he's wearing a gray shirt with black trim. | ||
| He's completely sleeved out. | ||
| And I'm getting all this from, you know, sleeved out on the left arm, huge earrings. | ||
| And I watch him, and I see him kind of ducking and looking under stalls and hitting the doors to make sure nobody else is in the bathroom. | ||
| I'm acting nonchalant, but then I see him walk up to me. | ||
| And for that split second, I thought, I'm getting jacked. | ||
| I'm going to get jumped right here. | ||
| But he ends up just asking me. | ||
| What brings you to Massachusetts? | ||
| I think what happened is they sent him in there to press me. | ||
| And this is a good lesson. | ||
| Don't bluff. | ||
| If you bluff, whatever you say today, you might be still in that case a year and a half, two years later. | ||
| It needs to match what you said on day one, or you could be slipping up and getting found out. | ||
| But I said where I'd been around, McAllen, grew up in South Carolina, all this stuff, he'd been to all those places because he used to travel the country fighting dogs. | ||
| So if I'd have been bluffing, I'd have been done right there. | ||
| And then from there, we start building relationships. | ||
| Now I'm trying to ingratiate, and I'm getting invited to parties. | ||
| My story was that I was a site survey specialist, and I traveled the country for investors out of Texas. | ||
| And I would look at properties that they want to buy, whether it's residential or mercantile, and pull stuff from the clerk of court and all that kind of stuff. | ||
| As it usually does in the criminal world, it came out that I also did some crimes myself. | ||
| And that's when we started getting into, they were doing insurance fraud first with me. | ||
| They would report vehicles stolen and then sell them to me for a stolen price. | ||
| And the story was, since I was based out of McAllen, Texas, I was just using the facts that we were moving vehicles to Mexico in trade for whatever. | ||
| Guns, most likely dope, but whatever. | ||
| And that's how we started. | ||
| And then from there, now you start gaining more trust. | ||
| You start hanging out more. | ||
| You become tighter. | ||
| You're building these relationships. | ||
| And then it's like, hey, we just carjacked somebody. | ||
| We got this car. | ||
| We took this dude at gunpoint. | ||
| This thing's got LoJack or OnStar or whatever was around in the end. | ||
| We got to get rid of it. | ||
| Don't worry about it. | ||
| I got it. | ||
| Have a truck driver show up. | ||
| We load all the stolen equipment, vehicles, whatever, on the truck. | ||
| And they thought they were going to Mexico. | ||
| They were just going to a warehouse somewhere in Massachusetts. | ||
| So you never actually brought cars to Mexico? | ||
| No. So when you would do that, we'd just get cash from the FBI to, like, represent? | ||
| Yeah. I mean, I would pay them, yeah, a stolen price. | ||
| Stolen is usually 20% to 25% of what it would normally cost, you know, because it's hot. | ||
| And that just started gaining trust. | ||
| I mean, like I said, there was other undercovers that would help. | ||
| We call those cameos. | ||
| If you're the primary undercover, that's you. | ||
| That's your case. | ||
| A secondary undercover might mean you come in to meet me, but you stay with me for a couple of days and we go out and meet bad guys together. | ||
| That's going to be a secondary role. | ||
| If you're coming in as a truck driver, you're just pulling in the parking lot, we're loading up stuff, that's a cameo. | ||
| And I've done many cameos for other undercovers as well. | ||
| You know, just rolling to town, do a deal, whatever. | ||
| So no one's ever trying to go with you to Mexico to make sure that all this is happening? | ||
| Not on that case, but if they did want to, we would have to work that out. | ||
| We would have to have that kind of... | ||
| I took this from a buddy of mine who I helped certify as an undercover, and I just thought it was a great way to say it. | ||
| Look, at the end of the day, we want that target going to bed thinking, that was a good day. | ||
| You don't want them laying in bed going... | ||
| Man, there's something wasn't right about that guy. | ||
| Something's not right. | ||
| Because you want it to be as real as possible. | ||
| So was it a fact that the cartels at that point in time loved 4x4 V8s and Harley Davidsons? | ||
| Absolutely. Did they get stolen all the time on the border? | ||
| Absolutely. So that's factual stuff that's real. | ||
| So now I'm a guy. | ||
| They eventually learned and believed that I was a high-ranking High-ranking member of an international theft ring. | ||
| And that's what we were doing. | ||
| And then through those, then they start stealing vehicles, which I've got to be careful of. | ||
| I can't say, hey, I want a brand new F-350 quad cab, because then they go steal it. | ||
| That's somewhat of entrapment. | ||
| I just led them to go steal that car, right? | ||
| But over the next year or so, we're getting more and more stuff. | ||
| I buy dope from them. | ||
| Like I said, carjackings, we learned of them, certain members extorting people, like the good old mafia days, you know, extorting businesses, home invasions. | ||
| But again, for the listeners listening, to hear that at a bar and say, yeah, we robbed that house, is that enough to charge somebody? | ||
| Probably not. | ||
| Is an assistant United States attorney going to be like, yeah, that's enough? | ||
| No, we're going to have to dive in more and find out and vet it out and get that evidence. | ||
| Wow. Stressful shit. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Slightly. Getting stressed out just thinking about you doing all these things. | |
| Me too. | ||
| So how long is this relationship while you're building a case? | ||
|
unidentified
|
How much time are you spending with these people? | |
| For that case, I was probably up there every three weeks for a good week. | ||
| But then there's constant contact when I'm not there. | ||
| Text messages. | ||
| Well, Nexttales were big with them at that point in time. | ||
| So yeah, chirps. | ||
| Oh, that's the old days, the walkie-talkie ones. | ||
| Radio, yeah. | ||
| Yeah, those were funny. | ||
| People forgot about them walkie-talkies. | ||
| Yeah, man. | ||
| It was crazy about that. | ||
| You could key up and talk to somebody in Japan, and it'd be crystal clear, but if you tried to call somebody, it was the worst connection ever. | ||
| Yeah, they were terrible phones. | ||
| But that's what they used, and that's what I got, and I was mirroring them. | ||
| But, yeah, so you build those relationships, and it depends. | ||
| Each case is different, but I will say that the tightest relationship I had on that case was Scott Town. | ||
| It was absolutely scary how similar we were and how tight we were. | ||
| Now, again, he didn't know I was Scott Payne, FBI undercover, but he knew I was Scott Calloway. | ||
| And he knew, I mean, it would be to the point to where if we were going out to do an op that evening, an operation, they wouldn't put it in the operations plan, but they would ask, hey, is Scott Town going to be there tonight? | ||
| I'm like, yeah. | ||
| And even the FBI cover teams and stuff would be like, good, because they knew that he cared enough about me, he'd take a bullet for me and protect me, and vice versa, really. | ||
| As me and Scott Calloway. | ||
| And, I mean, we finished each other's sentences. | ||
| We thought the same, other than the criminal stuff. | ||
| And some faith belief systems. | ||
| But, yeah, that was my tightest. | ||
| And the second one over the two years was probably a guy whose road name was Clothesline. | ||
| And he was the enforcer for the Taunton chapter. | ||
| And then after that, it probably would have been the president, which was Joe Dawgs. | ||
| And then it just trickles down from there. | ||
| Do you have conflicted feelings when you develop? | ||
| Like, these relationships with these guys? | ||
| I did. | ||
| You can put on as much training. | ||
| You can get the training. | ||
| You can be a part of it. | ||
| I'm still human, you know? | ||
| Now, was I to a point to where I'm going to go, I'm leaving the FBI and I'm going to become one percenter? | ||
| Some people do, though, right? | ||
| I know some people do, but I wasn't there. | ||
| I wouldn't do that. | ||
| How often does that happen? | ||
| Well... In the FBI, probably not a lot, but those cases are well known. | ||
| If something happens like that, somebody goes rogue, like your breach story and all these people selling secrets and getting people killed, yeah. | ||
| I wasn't there, nor would I be. | ||
| I wouldn't be. | ||
| I would like to think if I did have a 1%er club, nobody would ever infiltrate it, though. | ||
| Well, you probably understand how it works. | ||
| I'm just kidding. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But even then, I mean, you're dealing with... | |
| Ragamuffin people. | ||
| Yeah. But those are like, again, those are my kinds of people. | ||
| When we're riding around and people are wrestling each other over tables, this is my favorite move, bang. | ||
| I mean, at one point, I'm driving down the road with Scott Town in a snowstorm, and I'm driving, and I'm like this with my hand. | ||
| He reaches over out of nowhere and breaks my pinky. | ||
| Just pop! | ||
| And this sucker's like 90 degrees, and I'm like, mother... | ||
| I pulled over, I slammed on the break, well, I mean snow, but come to the stop and I go, what the F is your problem? | ||
| And he's looking at me and he's going, I don't know what he was on, but he was in an evil space, right? | ||
| And I'm looking at him and I'm going, look, if you want to F and fight, we'll stand out in the damn snowstorm right now and we'll go at it. | ||
| I know you think you can whip me, but maybe I can whip you. | ||
| And I saw it wasn't going anywhere and he was getting more and more angry. | ||
| And I just looked at him and I went, he's an animal right now. | ||
| I'm going to diffuse. | ||
| I'm going to de-escalate. | ||
| Which is really what you should be doing as an undercover. | ||
| And I look over and I go, hey. | ||
| After I pop my finger in, I go, hey. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sniff. Smell. | |
| Good boy. | ||
| Friend. Friend. | ||
| Like that. | ||
| I'm trying to calm him down. | ||
| Then he starts laughing. | ||
| But that's the kind of stuff you get. | ||
| But to me, it was no different than being in college, playing ball. | ||
| Hanging out with psychos. | ||
| Yeah. When you're there in the month of August and nobody is there, it's just... | ||
| 24-7 football. | ||
| What was it like when you eventually brought that guy down? | ||
| It was sad. | ||
| It was sad because in that case, there was a point where I had a young daughter, and his youngest daughter was roughly the same age as my daughter. | ||
| So I'm not at home with my kid, but I'm in his house bouncing his daughter on my lap. | ||
| And, you know, when they're developing... | ||
| As a human being, at that stage, they're kind of making the same noises, moving the same way. | ||
| It was surreal. | ||
| And then I remember thinking, man, I really like this guy. | ||
| He likes to drink. | ||
| I like to drink. | ||
| He likes to fight. | ||
| I like to fight. | ||
| He likes to ride. | ||
| I like to ride. | ||
| He likes to live. | ||
| I like to live. | ||
| I go, man, we finished each other's things. | ||
| Everything I already said. | ||
| And then I look over at his refrigerator. | ||
| And I see all these stickers and magnets and stuff, and my eyes just settled in on WWSD. | ||
| And for the listeners that don't know, WWJD is very common in the Christ follower Christian community. | ||
| What would Jesus do? | ||
| You see the bracelets all the time. | ||
| And I looked over and said, WWSD. | ||
| What would Satan do? | ||
| And I looked and I went, oh yeah, we're not the same. | ||
| We're not the same. | ||
| I'm back. | ||
| We'd be in the clubhouse and everybody's yelling. | ||
| Biker Club name is, you usually get these same sayings. | ||
| So for the outlaws, it's outlaws forever. | ||
| Forever outlaws. | ||
| Hell yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| God forgives, outlaws don't. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| It's better to be first in hell than second in heaven. | ||
| And I'm like, what? | ||
| T, what's... | ||
| Hang on. | ||
| I'm like, I'm not saying I'm a chalk-walking Christian because I'm pretending to be a one-percenter, you know, evil man, but what story have you ever heard of hell where it was good? | ||
| I mean, are you helping me out here? | ||
| So yeah, it's a crazy bunch. | ||
| But on that case, one of the biggest things that happened is we had been going for a year and a half and doing all these things. | ||
| They've carjacked stuff. | ||
| We're getting more and more evidence. | ||
| There was a Hells Angel president murdered in Bridgeport, Connecticut. | ||
| Terrible town. | ||
| Terrible town. | ||
| Oh, Bridgeport's dangerous. | ||
| So Bridgeport, Connecticut. | ||
| The other Hells Angel that was shot didn't die, and he was able to give a description of a green truck with Florida plates. | ||
| We knew at that time that Florida outlaws were up in that area because they were hanging out with our targets. | ||
| And even when I would call, I'd be like, hey, man, it's hot here right now. | ||
| If you come out, you need to be strapping. | ||
| I'm like, well, I don't want to fly with it. | ||
| I don't want to put a bullseye on my back back then. | ||
| I'm like, hey, if I show up, we'll give you a vest. | ||
| We'll give you a gun kind of thing. | ||
| So we're doing all that. | ||
| And now we get to the point to where we can, all the predications there, they've done wiretaps, the case team has been doing a wiretap, they know that there's drug deals going on, they're doing surveillance, and now we're to the point to where we can introduce that I used to be in the dope game as well. | ||
| My story was that the reason I got out of it and only did the stolen stuff was because Some of my peeps got popped because the heat was getting close. | ||
| So I pulled chocks and I was out. | ||
| And all I do now is move stolen equipment down because it's a lot less... | ||
| The way I explained it, it was less likely for law enforcement to catch me. | ||
| And then they would ask, you know, well, how come a white guy is not cut out by all these Mexicans you're working with? | ||
| And I go, because I'm the gringo that has the contact at the port of entry and the contacts at the checkpoints to pay them 15 grand to turn their head for two minutes and let our stuff go through. | ||
| And that was really happening on the border, and I knew that because I was on the border working it. | ||
| Again, real things, you're just putting them into your story. | ||
| But I now let them know it took a long time. | ||
| I don't put words in their mouth. | ||
| But I started laying breadcrumbs over weeks and months that I did just to be in the Dope Game. | ||
| And, of course, Joe Dawg's the president. | ||
| I mean, the first time I met him, and he said, where are you from? | ||
| I said, McAllen, Texas, on the border. | ||
| His next question was, how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for? | ||
| And I went, well, if we were needing predication, I think he just gave it. | ||
| But his business skills weren't that great because I'd say, look, man, about $13,000 is what you could get a kilo for then on the border. | ||
| He said, man, so if I got 10 of them up here for $13,000, I'm like, no, that's not going to cost $13,000 up here. | ||
| There's a reason the kilo costs $25,000 to $30,000 up here because somebody has to get it from the border to here. | ||
| Now, if you want to drive down the border and buy 10 for $13,000 apiece, and you risk taking them back over. | ||
| So we let it be known that I had some cartels. | ||
| Of course they knew I had cartel contacts. | ||
| And we started introducing those. | ||
| Some cameo undercovers came in. | ||
| Unbelievable people. | ||
| And we ended up doing what some refer to as a drug protection. | ||
| There was going to be a drug shipment coming in. | ||
| And my crew was going to be delivering it to another crew. | ||
| And we needed protection. | ||
| And we did it in Brockton. | ||
| And several outlaws hopped in on it. | ||
| The issue was this. | ||
| At least one of the big issues. | ||
| Pretty much that case, I had a great time. | ||
| Yes, it's violent, and my mentality was changing. | ||
| There is a podcast that's a series that's going to be coming out with the book, and they actually interview one of the task force officers who was over me. | ||
| I want to know what you were thinking. | ||
| I know what I was thinking. | ||
| And it was really surreal to hear him talking about he could see my personality changing. | ||
| He could see, and like the FBI office might be saying, we want him to patch. | ||
| And he was over here fighting, going, hell no. | ||
| We're getting everything we need now. | ||
| If he patches, then they can order him to do shit. | ||
| And it was just really cool to hear that. | ||
| But essentially for the case, it was me, an FBI case agent, and two task force officers. | ||
| We had Detective Joe Cummins from Brockton PD. | ||
| Sergeant Higginbottom from the Massachusetts State Troopers, and then an agent with the FBI, and that was it. | ||
| I mean, they would add some here and there, but for two years, that was it. | ||
| It was us. | ||
| So now we get to this point to where we're like, man, let's do this drug protection. | ||
| And the assistant United States attorney was like, hey, if you're going to be at the clubhouse, or do they talk about this at the clubhouse? | ||
| We're like, yeah. | ||
| And he goes, well, that would be awesome if we could get that recorded, because it helps, right, to show what they're planning on doing. | ||
| So the night before, the deal's supposed to happen. | ||
| They don't know it, but we've got 40 kilos of real cocaine and 1,000 pounds of weed. | ||
| Real. So you can imagine SWAT teams are involved. | ||
| Can you imagine if the FBI lost 40 kilos of cocaine and Brockton and Tauntons are all wide awake for the next week? | ||
| Or there's ODs, because that's a liability. | ||
| Did you say you had 40 kilos? | ||
| There's only 39 here. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| No, I'm just messing with you. | ||
| But so... | ||
| So, they say, hey, Joe Dawgs calls me. | ||
| It's night of church. | ||
| He says, hey, I need you to come to the clubhouse. | ||
| I'm like, alright, cool. | ||
| And of course, I'm thinking, I'm type A. I'm Scott Payne. | ||
| I got this. | ||
| Let's go do this, man. | ||
| These are my boys. | ||
| I've been doing this a year and a half. | ||
| And I went into the clubhouse. | ||
| And what I couldn't see, and I won't say where the recording devices were at, because that's tradecraft. | ||
| But let's just say, I had a video and recording device hidden somewhere in my clothing. | ||
| I had a... | ||
| Completely audio recording device somewhere else on me, and I had a transmitter, batteries, so the team could listen in. | ||
| And I went into the clubhouse, like normal, but what you can't see, if you go back and you watch the video, is if I'm facing this way, and I'm shooting the shit with you and this is the bar, and you're laughing at my jokes like always, when I would turn my head to look this way, | ||
| it's still filming. | ||
| And I didn't see it because I turned my head. | ||
| They go stone face. | ||
| And I missed it. | ||
| I didn't see it. | ||
| I do know that when I got to the clubhouse, I knock on the door, knock on the door, I'm knocking on the door, I'm like, what the, you know, Joe Dog's props, and he goes, hey, hey, we're not ready yet. | ||
| And I'll go to them, why the hell did you tell me to come? | ||
| I was being smart. | ||
| I'm like, what's the deal? | ||
| Why would you say come if you're not ready? | ||
| I didn't pick anything up. | ||
| So I go in, and for the listeners that may not know, at least in this clubhouse, if you're not a patch member, which I wasn't, they offered it. | ||
| Several times they wanted me to patch, but I'm with what I said for the task force officer. | ||
| I said the same thing. | ||
| I'm like, look, if I'm a probate and they say, get your shit text, we're going to go check this dude, I kind of got to go. | ||
| I mean, if I don't do it, I'm either getting kicked out or beat down or whatever. | ||
| But being a high-ranking member of an international theft ring that they're making money off of, it's a little different. | ||
| We were getting everything we wanted. | ||
| So I go in the clubhouse. | ||
| I miss that. | ||
| I also miss that in the back, one of them, Chocolate Scott, it looks like he's dancing to the song that's playing, but he's warming up. | ||
| And I miss that. | ||
| And then my second closest contact, clothesline, says, Hey Tex, you got a minute? | ||
| And I said, Yeah. | ||
| And we walk. | ||
| I'd been in that clubhouse I don't know how many times, Joe. | ||
| But there's one door I'd never been in. | ||
| And that's the door we went in. | ||
| And it was a very tight stairwell. | ||
| Into, you can say a basement, but that's being very, I'm stretching it. | ||
| Because I could probably touch the wall on both sides and I couldn't stand up straight. | ||
| So they bring me down in there. | ||
| They've brandished their weapons. | ||
| One of them walks in behind me. | ||
| He's on the steps. | ||
| So they got their pistols. | ||
| And my friend says, hey, there's a lot of shit going on. | ||
| It's my job to take care of my brothers. | ||
| I need you to write down your full name, your address, your phone number. | ||
| All kinds of stuff. | ||
| And I need you to take off all your clothes. | ||
| I need to check you for a wire. | ||
| Here's the problem. | ||
| Had I not been wired, embarrassing, yes. | ||
| Naked with a bunch of men around you in a cold basement. | ||
| Yeah, that would have been bad, but it would have been no threat. | ||
| But I was wired to the hilt. | ||
| And so you think, man, do you fight? | ||
| Do you try to get out? | ||
| Well, there's already two or three there. | ||
| I'm probably going to do some Tommy boy shit and knock myself out on the joist as soon as I start trying to fight. | ||
| And then upstairs, there's, what, ten more outlaws. | ||
| And that door, what I was getting into earlier, I didn't say, if you're not a patch member, you can't touch the door. | ||
| That door has more than one deadbolt on it. | ||
| They had welded metal hooks to the frame and put one of those, like, shipyard metal bars across. | ||
| So from a breacher's standpoint, it's a fortified door. | ||
| It might be easier to breach the wall next to it. | ||
| So we're down there in the basement. | ||
| And when I go to write my name down, I forgot my middle name. | ||
| And that's because I was having a no-crap moment. | ||
| I had an adrenaline dump. | ||
| Same thing as cops in shootouts, military in shootouts, somebody in a car wreck, first time. | ||
| When you're having that adrenaline dump, everything slows down. | ||
| You get auditory exclusion. | ||
| So everything you're hearing sounds like you're underwater. | ||
| It's going whoosh. | ||
| It's slow like you're talking to me like this. | ||
| Time dilation. | ||
| Your eyes are clicking. | ||
| You look and everything's in frames. | ||
| Everything's slowing down. | ||
| Your hamstrings get really rubbery. | ||
| You feel your heart beating. | ||
| I mean, you feel everything pulsing. | ||
| And what seems like 10-15 minutes is probably 30 seconds. | ||
| And that happens. | ||
| That's an adrenaline dump. | ||
| So that was happening. | ||
| And I forgot my middle name. | ||
| And I'm going Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway. | ||
| I start going through this damn Rolodex in my head and I'm going Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway. | ||
| And I'm going Scott Joseph. | ||
| Damn it. | ||
| That was my middle name for another alias. | ||
| And I don't realize that I do a distraction technique or something to try to get more intelligence. | ||
| I would have never... | ||
| Known I said it, would have never agreed I said it had I not seen it in the recording. | ||
| But I turn and I go, and what else do you need? | ||
| And by the way, you've got a bass line of me now, my voice. | ||
| It did not sound like this on that recording. | ||
| My throat was tight. | ||
| The octaves, I mean, it was very higher than normal. | ||
| And I'm like not even enunciating that well. | ||
| I'm like, and what else do you need? | ||
| And they're like, what? | ||
| I go, my name and what else? | ||
| Well, now I hear them scream up, and they go, what else do you need for that website? | ||
| So now I know, oh, are they going to Google me? | ||
| Back then, there was whosarat.com, things like that. | ||
| So I'm gathering that evidence, or intelligence, and then I remember my middle name was, my initials were SAC, because I'm an idiot, and I thought it was funny, because SAC is the head of an FBI division, and I knew I was never going to be one. | ||
| So I made my initials SAC. | ||
| So I remember my name, Scott Andrew Calloway. | ||
| And then I write that down. | ||
| Well, now I take off all my clothes. | ||
| I take off my outer clothing, all my shirts. | ||
| I take my boots off. | ||
| And I basically pull my underwear and jeans down around my ankles. | ||
| So, pretty much naked from ankles. | ||
| I mean, I'm definitely naked from ankles up. | ||
| And he starts searching me. | ||
| And I'm, again, I'm having an oh shit moment. | ||
| And he's trying to talk to me. | ||
| And, like, we had known each other for a year and a half. | ||
| So I'm not saying it out loud, but if you saw what my face was saying, what my face is saying and asking is, tell me I'm okay. | ||
| Is this okay? | ||
| Well, Clothesline, because we were tight, hits me back with a face look that's like everything's all right. | ||
| This is just procedure. | ||
| However, he didn't know that I'm an undercover agent and I'm wired. | ||
| So that adds a whole other issue. | ||
| So he searches me. | ||
| I think we're done. | ||
| At one point, he even tells me. | ||
| He says, trust me. | ||
| If somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the fucking mouth. | ||
| And I said, those are his words. | ||
| And I immediately said, well, I'm not happy. | ||
| I'll tell you what I did do. | ||
| I did look to make sure there was no plastic on the floor. | ||
| And I've had people ask me, what does that mean? | ||
| And I go, well, listen, if you're in the criminal underbelly of society and there's plastic on the floor and they're telling you to walk on it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They're going to cut you open. | |
| Yeah. It's to clean up the blood. | ||
| I didn't see that. | ||
| I saw a rope. | ||
| I saw pistols. | ||
| And I knew I didn't have a chance in hell of getting out of there. | ||
| And one piece. | ||
| So he finishes, and he's saying something. | ||
| He goes, wouldn't you be suspect if somebody comes to your town and starts doing all this shit with you? | ||
| I said, yeah, if you came to me. | ||
| I didn't come to you guys. | ||
| Y'all called me over. | ||
| Nobody has to do this shit. | ||
| I'm like, what do we, you know, nobody has to do anything, right? | ||
| And I think we're done. | ||
| So I pull my pants back up, and I think we're done. | ||
| And he grabs a piece of clothing of mine. | ||
| And he starts kneading it and going through it. | ||
| Now, this is 2005 to 2007-ish. | ||
| So technology today is way better than it was then, just like technology is. | ||
| But let's just say this. | ||
| Had he done this down my entire piece of clothing, he would have felt something. | ||
| And he says, as a joke, when he starts, he goes, Hey, I'm not going to find anything in here I don't want to. | ||
| Like some naked pictures of my old lady. | ||
| And he laughs. | ||
| And his laugh is like... | ||
| And my laugh is like... | ||
| You know? | ||
| And then I'm watching him go down this piece of clothing. | ||
| And he's doing this. | ||
| And he's kneading it. | ||
| And you can hear... | ||
| Again, I don't know how to do it. | ||
| But on the recording, you can hear me go... | ||
|
unidentified
|
An audible sigh. | |
| Because I'm like watching it. | ||
| I'm going, what the... | ||
| What am I going to do? | ||
| So here's how it ends. | ||
| He doesn't find it. | ||
| Wow. Almost. | ||
| I mean, like, very, very close. | ||
| And by the way, that first adrenaline dump, I've come back up, and now I've got another adrenaline dump. | ||
| And now I've come in, I'm like, son of a, you know, it's peaks and valleys. | ||
| And everybody that I've taught this to, or spoke about it to, always asked, they're like, man, what would you have said? | ||
| And I'll tell you, I had two responses. | ||
| Because I'm a jovial idiot, my first response, if he would have said, What is this? | ||
| I would have probably said, I don't know, some naked pictures of you old lady to try to buy myself some time, maybe make him quit searching. | ||
| The only other thing I had, Joe, is, and I remember it like it was yesterday, I would have said, the gig is up, I'm an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court, or all hell's gonna break loose. | ||
| Here's the issue. | ||
| As I get a swig. | ||
| That would have been a bluff on my part. | ||
| Because as far as I knew, Every time I was in that clubhouse, my cover team could never hear me. | ||
| For whatever reasons. | ||
| Because somebody's going to say it's Tradecraft, but again, this is 2005 to 2008, but they could never really hear me in that clubhouse. | ||
| And I make it out. | ||
| I end up going out with Scott Town and Joe Dawgs that night. | ||
| But what happens is I am legitimately pissed off. | ||
| Because now my adrenaline's coming back down. | ||
| And I'm... | ||
| I'm taking it personal. | ||
| I shouldn't. | ||
| I'm undercover as an FBI agent. | ||
| I'm not really Scott Calloway. | ||
| I mean, I'm kind of Scott Calloway. | ||
| But you're so deep in the role. | ||
| Well, and it's really me, kind of. | ||
| I mean, that's the whole thing. | ||
| I never was far off of who I really am in life. | ||
| A pedophile? | ||
| Yeah. You hire me to kill somebody? | ||
| No, I'm not going to ingratiate with you. | ||
| I'm a stone-cold killer. | ||
| But I'm hanging with you for two years or a year and a half or whatever. | ||
| Yeah, the jokes are kind of the same. | ||
| So I'm pissed. | ||
| At one point, I'm telling Joe Dawgs, I'm like, you know what, man? | ||
| F all you sons. | ||
| I said, y'all show up tomorrow? | ||
| I said, I'm stripping all y'all in the damn parking lot. | ||
| They were nice. | ||
| They let me vent my stuff. | ||
| Well, that night, when I went to turn in my equipment at an undisclosed location, probably 3, 4, or 5 in the morning, to the case team, what I found out was this. | ||
| The shift started with Sergeant Higginbottom. | ||
| Everybody called him Higgy. | ||
| And Joe. | ||
| The detectives. | ||
| The detective. | ||
| These guys are awesome. | ||
| Phenomenal law enforcement officers. | ||
| Although I think their love language is yelling. | ||
| Maybe that's my southern thing mixing with the northeast thing. | ||
| But they told me. | ||
| They said, Scott, we heard you in there. | ||
| And I'm like, what? | ||
| When I had that first interaction with Joe Dawgs. | ||
| They are very street smart. | ||
| They're very good investigators, and they have been working this group forever. | ||
| Something that happened in that first interaction made their spidey senses, or the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer, say, something's not right. | ||
| They had pulled close enough. | ||
| They heard everything. | ||
| They put on their vest. | ||
| They suited up. | ||
| And because they had been in that clubhouse before and knew that door system, their plan was to drive the van into the cinder block wall next to the door. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, my God. | |
| Just to smash that, you know. | ||
| Sometimes I'm teaching this. | ||
| I'll joke about it and say it probably would have killed me because I was in the basement, you know. | ||
| Reverse. Back up. | ||
| You're so damn heavy. | ||
| But at that moment, I was scared to death, right? | ||
| So they tell me what happened was they pulled close enough they heard everything. | ||
| They're suiting up. | ||
| They have radioed now because it's kind of the beginning of the shift. | ||
| They've radioed now back to Boston. | ||
| Everybody that's working that night is now blue lights and siren all the way down to Holland Ass to Taunton, Massachusetts. | ||
| So I say this in a jovial way, but the case agent was actually a good friend of mine. | ||
| We went through the FBI Academy together. | ||
| And that night, again, I'm still shell-shocked. | ||
| He says, man, when I was coming down the highway with my blue lights and sirens on, I felt like I was in there with you. | ||
| And I looked at him and I said, you weren't. | ||
| I said, because I was looking for any friendly face I could find in that damn hole. | ||
| But so that night, we haven't talked about my family. | ||
| I try not. | ||
| Well, I take it back. | ||
| In the book, I'm very transparent about where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended. | ||
| You know, 9-1-1 hangups, stuff like that. | ||
| But at that point in time, I bought my wife, everybody's pretty familiar now with the burner phone, but I bought my wife a phone that came back to nothing so my undercover phone could call that phone, not violating the operational security. | ||
| That night, Joe, when I called her, I'd always call her every night. | ||
| Again, 5, 7 in the morning, it didn't matter. | ||
| And it might just be she wakes up and says hello, and I go, hey, I just wanted you to know I'm done. | ||
| I'm heading back to the hotel room. | ||
| Whenever I wake up this afternoon, I'll call you. | ||
| It might be that quick. | ||
| That night when I called her, the first thing she said to me was, are you okay? | ||
| She felt it. | ||
| I said, yeah, why? | ||
| And she said, I was driving with our daughters at such and such time in McAllen, and she said she got this overwhelming feeling and pulled over on the side of the road and started praying for me. | ||
| And I matched it up. | ||
| That's when I was in the basement. | ||
| So, say what you will, but damn. | ||
| Wow. Yeah. | ||
| Apparently, my oh shit signal. | ||
| Apparently, I don't need Verizon or anything because it went from Boston all the way to the bottom of Texas. | ||
| But it's just, I mean, that's just one of the little, one of the things that happen and it just takes a toll on you over time. | ||
| I can only imagine. | ||
| Yeah, so I'll get you to the next day. | ||
| We do the deal. | ||
| Clothesline doesn't show up. | ||
| Well, that pisses me off. | ||
| Wait a minute, you're supposed to be my boy. | ||
| And you took me into the damn basement and stripped me at gunpoint. | ||
| But you can't come up? | ||
| You don't show up the next day and help with this thing? | ||
| Again, I'm taking it personally. | ||
| I shouldn't. | ||
| So everybody knew there was a beef. | ||
| Let's just fast forward a month or two. | ||
| I go back home. | ||
| I come back. | ||
| And Big Scotty had even said, he goes, look, these guys are going to settle this like grown men face to face. | ||
| It ain't going to happen over the damn phone. | ||
| So the next time I go back to Massachusetts. | ||
| I'm at a cantina we used to go hang at and drink at in Bridgewater. | ||
| Another hard town. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| So, yeah, these are my people. | ||
| This is where I get called. | ||
| We did not do any meetings at the Long Wharf Marriott. | ||
| You know what I mean? | ||
| How would you like to meet me at Legal Seafoods tonight? | ||
| My fellow criminals, you know? | ||
| Yeah, so I'm at this cantina and Clothesline walks in. | ||
| Now, you've got to remember, the last time I saw this dude, he took me into a damn basement. | ||
| And he looked a little rough, like a little whipped, you know, like he'd been disheveled. | ||
| And he says, hey, man, can I talk to you for a minute? | ||
| And the first thing I said was no. | ||
| And he says, why? | ||
| I said, because the last time you asked me that shit, I ended up naked in the basement. | ||
| No. So he says, I was like that. | ||
| So we went back in the kitchen, and we're talking. | ||
| And what we learned, or what I learned, and the case team learned, is... | ||
| When we upped the ante to do that drug deal, and again, a lot of those outlaws were pushing for it, because as a drug dealer, what are you always looking for? | ||
| Cheaper product, higher quality. | ||
| It's just more money for you, right? | ||
| So he was really, especially Joe Dog, they wanted to get a pipeline. | ||
| They wanted to get an introduction to the cartel so they could get quality dope, you know, and have a very successful business. | ||
| So I'm in there with him, and I'm ready to go to blows if we have to. | ||
| And he starts talking to me. | ||
| And he says, you know, Scott, he said, what had happened, what I was going to tell you, is that the call went up to the top. | ||
| And the top to us meant Milwaukee Jack was the national president. | ||
| And this makes a hard argument for when they say, it's not an organization. | ||
| You do your own stuff. | ||
| We only DM each other. | ||
| Nobody knows each other's business. | ||
| Well, then how did it go to the top of the outlaws who said, has this guy ever really been checked? | ||
| And they go back and say, well, we've done like six to eight jobs with him, and we're not in bracelets, meaning handcuffs. | ||
| And he said, I don't care. | ||
| Check them. | ||
| So now, that's when I get stripped in the basement. | ||
| I learned that, and this is what Clothesline tells me. | ||
| And you gotta remember, my mindset is, screw this guy, I'm ready to go to blows. | ||
| I'm not gonna look like a bitch. | ||
| And he says, man, I know I was born to be an outlaw. | ||
| I'm either gonna die young or die in jail. | ||
| He said, and these are my brothers. | ||
| He said, but I really don't have a lot of friends. | ||
| And he said, ones that I know would take a bullet for me and I'd take a bullet for them. | ||
| And that's when I start looking at his face and I'm going, oh shit, don't you say it, man. | ||
| Don't you say it. | ||
| And he says, And you're one of those people. | ||
| So now I'm like, ugh. | ||
| And he says, the reason he didn't show up is because he felt so bad for what he had to do to me in the basement that night. | ||
| He got so obliterated that night, he was passed out through the whole drug deal the next day. | ||
| So that night when I called my wife, she says hello, and my first words are, or she's like, how's it going? | ||
| How did it go? | ||
| My first words are, I am a dick. | ||
| I go, I am such a dick. | ||
| This guy loves me. | ||
| He cares about me. | ||
| Now, that's the real side. | ||
| That's the human side. | ||
| Now, there might be, you know, we don't train that way. | ||
| We tell you, look, that's not you, but I'm still human. | ||
| I'm out there. | ||
| I'm out there. | ||
| I'm surprised we haven't said this yet. | ||
| A lot of times, if I'm speaking or teaching or whatever, I'll put up there, what does undercover mean to you? | ||
| So I'll ask you, what do you think undercover is? | ||
| You're pretending. | ||
| Okay, you're pretending. | ||
| Infiltrate an organization? | ||
| Pretend to be one of them? | ||
| I get that a lot. | ||
| I get lying. | ||
| We hear acting. | ||
| You're a character. | ||
| Here is the definition of undercover work. | ||
| You are building relationships that you're going to betray. | ||
| And that sucks. | ||
| If you look at it that way... | ||
| Especially if you genuinely have something in common with these guys. | ||
| Right. And you actually like their company. | ||
| Now, don't get me wrong. | ||
| If you haven't done anything illegal... | ||
| Well, then, no, I'm really not. | ||
| I mean, I guess I'm still betraying you because you thought I was somebody else, but we're not arresting you. | ||
| I've done undercovers like that. | ||
| Those happen all the time. | ||
| You're in there for five months, and you're like, there's nothing federal here. | ||
| I mean, they're within their constitutional rights, and you just bail. | ||
| But you have to... | ||
| You are basically building and betraying relationships, especially if you're gathering evidence of criminal activity. | ||
| And you need to know how you're going to deal with that. | ||
| Rationalize that in your mind so it doesn't have an adverse impact on your psyche. | ||
| And that's tough, you know? | ||
| I'll fast-forward you a little bit. | ||
| I crashed on that case for a three-year period. | ||
| I'd been going nonstop. | ||
| And I'm not saying I'm tough. | ||
| I met my threshold. | ||
| I think your threshold changes every day. | ||
| Just like your comfort zone. | ||
| Some days I take off jogging at 54 years old. | ||
| Sometimes I take off running and I go, it's going to be a damn good day. | ||
| I feel light, fluffy, floating on the clouds. | ||
| Some days I take off running and I go, how long have I been running? | ||
| Two minutes. | ||
| Damn. It's going to be a long day. | ||
| So your comfort zone changes. | ||
| I think your threshold changes, but I go into great detail in the book. | ||
| But for three years, I had been... | ||
| Doing too much. | ||
| Well, I say doing too much, but even when I moved to Tennessee, I did too much again. | ||
| I just learned how to balance it better. | ||
| I'm a workaholic. | ||
| I love working. | ||
| I love doing it all. | ||
| SWAT call-outs, running tactical schools here, case agent first, building cases, putting bad people in jail, undercover. | ||
| But I had stopped taking days off because I didn't want to give management a reason to tell me I couldn't go do an undercover. | ||
| I just work through the weekend or be undercover through the weekend, come back, type up all my stuff, then run my cases. | ||
| Teaching all the tactics and firearms for McAllen and Brownsville agents, resident agents, which is just satellite offices out of San Antonio. | ||
| On SWAT, running firearms for them, stuff like that. | ||
| And I just stopped taking care of myself. | ||
| So we get to a point to where... | ||
| Like I said, in great detail in the book, but just picture this. | ||
| I already gave you a little bit of a blurb on the undercover school, right? | ||
| Two weeks, no days off. | ||
| Let's just say I'm there for 10 days. | ||
| Well, once we put you to bed, we're probably going to hang out and drink a little bit because you're my peer. | ||
| And it's also therapy. | ||
| And it's good to know that you're not on an island by yourself, that there are other people doing the same thing you are. | ||
| And there's a lot of bonding that goes on there. | ||
| But that means for 10 days, I'm not getting a whole lot of sleep. | ||
| Man, I've probably got too much alcohol in my system, if we're being transparent. | ||
| But then I leave straight from that undercover school, and I go right into an undercover. | ||
| And let's just say I land in Sturgis, which I did. | ||
| And the Hells Angels shoot five outlaws at point-blank range, my first day there. | ||
| Like, I hadn't even been in town like an hour. | ||
| Now, there's two old ladies, two patch members, and a probate, but they're all shot. | ||
| They confirmed it was the Hells Angels. | ||
| We're talking paralyzed from the waist down for life. | ||
| We're talking crushed clavicles. | ||
| I mean, not just like a zinger. | ||
| And now you're back doing that for days on end. | ||
| And when I would get home, I would stop taking care of myself. | ||
| I got to the point to where I was a walking zombie. | ||
| I was on antihistamines, decongestants, inhalers. | ||
| I was taking hydroxy cuts like crazy. | ||
| I was making the strongest coffee I could possibly make. | ||
| And I'd drink a pot of coffee and fall asleep. | ||
| So what I learned through the book process, even though I'd learned a lot already, I found out from my wife. | ||
| I was a ghost, man. | ||
| I'd come home from SWAT, work, undercover, whatever. | ||
| I'd be on the couch and my daughters would be on my lap. | ||
| I'd help put them to bed. | ||
| But my wife couldn't even ask me a simple question about the bills. | ||
| You know, hey, there's this bill I got. | ||
| Do whatever you got. | ||
| I can't think. | ||
| I just need to. | ||
| And she wanted to do everything she could to support me and just let me veg and not put anything on my plate. | ||
| So we get to the end of the outlaw case, and I'm starting to crash. | ||
| Didn't know it. | ||
| If you are a certified undercover and you are active in the FBI, you mandatorily have to be psychologically assessed. | ||
| Twice a year. | ||
| That whole thing is called Safeguard. | ||
| I'm not outing anything. | ||
| It's out there. | ||
| It's on the internet. | ||
| But the Safeguard process was created by Joe Pistone. | ||
| Donnie Brasco. | ||
| It was created by Joe and a former agent who was, his background was a clinical psychologist, Steve Band. | ||
| And they came up with this because Joe, you've got to remember when Joe was undercover, there was no attorney general guidelines. | ||
| There probably wasn't even an operational procedure manual for undercovers. | ||
| It was like... | ||
| Here's money. | ||
| Here's your recorders. | ||
| Go make a case. | ||
| He was one of the first 25 undercovers in the FBI in 1972. | ||
| That happened right after Hoover left. | ||
| Hoover did not believe in the undercover technique, but as soon as he was out, they started working undercover. | ||
| But the safeguard process goes like you take a bunch of psychological tests. | ||
| And then you're going to sit down. | ||
| You're going to take a break. | ||
| It's going to put a bunch of numbers into some charts. | ||
| You're going to sit down with a clinical psychologist. | ||
| They may be an agent for the FBI or they may be contracted in. | ||
| They're going to go over all that stuff with you. | ||
| They're going to dive deep into your psyche. | ||
| Try to. | ||
| And then after that, you're going to sit down with somebody like a pistone or an experienced undercover. | ||
| Because you know the old saying, you can't bullshit a bullshitter? | ||
| Well, we use undercover, you see, as a verb. | ||
| You can't you see a you see. | ||
| I remember going to take one of the tests as an open-ended sentence. | ||
| You have to fill in the blanks. | ||
| So I'm on my way to Daytona at a world run with the outlaws, still rolling heavy in the case. | ||
| And I stopped off at an undisclosed location to do the assessment. | ||
| And I remember, like the open-ended sentence might be, men are, and you've got to finish it. | ||
| I'd always say men. | ||
| Women are. | ||
| I'd put women. | ||
| They'd be like, what do you mean? | ||
| I go, you know what I mean. | ||
| I'm not opening that can of worms. | ||
| No, we're different. | ||
| How's that? | ||
| But there was one that said, the last time I relaxed, I. And I couldn't think anything. | ||
| Wow. Nothing. | ||
| And that's not me BSing. | ||
| I'm like sitting there at the table going, well, I work out all the time. | ||
| I'm like, but that's not relaxing. | ||
| It's not like I'm namaste and listen to Yanni and shit. | ||
| I'm like, I'm trying to throw 45s across the gym, you know? | ||
| But I'm like, hmm. | ||
| So I just made up a story. | ||
| Even at that moment, I thought, man, that's really screwed up. | ||
| Wow. But I was like, yeah, ain't a big deal. | ||
| And again, way more detail in the book. | ||
| But the thing that happened to me was I ended up, I'm out partying with Outlaws and Mongols all night. | ||
| I wake up the next morning. | ||
| I mean, you can hear and feel the whiskey and eggs swishing in your belly. | ||
| You know that. | ||
| And I'm like, I just feel disgusted. | ||
| I'm going to start working out. | ||
| So I'm in the hotel room doing, before P90 came out, but kind of that thing. | ||
| Burpees, mountain climbers, push-ups, air squats, sit-ups, all this stuff. | ||
| And I came up, and by the way, this is after I hit the inhaler, took a decongestant, antihistamine, three hydroxy cuts, two cups of coffee. | ||
| I don't know if there was anything else in there. | ||
| I later learned that that was basically a cocktail for an anxiety attack. | ||
| I was like, who knew? | ||
| It doesn't make a lot of sense, but I had an anxiety attack. | ||
| I was trying to work out. | ||
| I came up for air, hyperventilated, forgot all about combat breathing, forgot about paper bags. | ||
| But did I stop? | ||
| Did I say, man, that's really screwed up? | ||
| No. I took a nap, got up, started drinking Jack Daniels and went back. | ||
| But when I flew home... | ||
| I slept wheels up to wheels down until I hit Houston. | ||
| And then I slept wheels up to wheels down until I got to McAllen. | ||
| And I think probably the first two days, I might have slept close to 20 hours a day. | ||
| But for the whole week, from Sunday to Friday, I slept an average of 16 plus hours a day. | ||
| Wow. And I wasn't. | ||
| I wasn't. | ||
| Depressed. I wasn't sick. | ||
| I know what they both feel like. | ||
| I was that damn tired. | ||
| So by Friday morning, I take a phone call from a former good buddy of mine. | ||
| He is probably one of the best undercovers I've ever seen. | ||
| But he was calling me about a possible another biker case. | ||
| And his first question was, how you doing, country? | ||
| And I'm like, not too good. | ||
| And then he let me talk for an hour and convinced myself I needed to call Safeguard. | ||
| So I called them. | ||
| They came in and did an on-site assessment. | ||
| They diagnosed me as over-assigned, and they said, you can continue the case on the phone until they take it down. | ||
| And I stayed on the phone. | ||
| I made a story up because I'd gotten married, technically. | ||
| And I told them I was getting a divorce, but I had to relocate my wife and my kids to El Paso, where her family was at. | ||
| Once that's done, I'm pulling chocks. | ||
| I'm coming to Massachusetts. | ||
| We had already created, it was in the creation, our own biker club, that it was approved by the top of the outlaws to be the number one support club in the Northeast. | ||
| And we were going to name it the Righteous Few. | ||
| Scott Town was going to be the president. | ||
| I was going to be an officer in it. | ||
| Sergeant-at-arms. | ||
| And I never went back up there because they told me I couldn't. | ||
| When you get put on timeout, it's like, no travel. | ||
| You can be a case agent. | ||
| We're going to suggest to your division no travel. | ||
| Definitely no undercover work. | ||
| There was some confusion there because one of the arguments is you need to You need to get back in to being a case agent and remember what you're supposed to be doing. | ||
| And I'm like, I never stopped being a case. | ||
| I'm running all these damn cases while all this is going on. | ||
| But I took a time out. | ||
| I made some phone calls. | ||
| There was one guy named Tim Sylvia, not the fighter, who is a buddy now, by the way. | ||
| This guy's name was Tim Sylvia. | ||
| He had been in prison most of his life. | ||
| But before I stopped going up there, he was introduced to me. | ||
| He knew about the cocaine. | ||
| He knew about what I did. | ||
| He calls me and says, man, I got some stolen vehicles for you. | ||
| I'm in the magic powder business. | ||
| If you can get me those bricks or whatever he called them, code on the phone, for 18 apiece, I can buy 10 of them right now. | ||
| So I called the case team and said, look, he's reaching out to me. | ||
| I can't come back up there. | ||
| So we rigged it up to where the guys that were posing as my truck drivers went. | ||
| And they were going to pick up these stolen vehicles. | ||
| They had like a 7 Series BMW worth $100 plus grand at the time. | ||
| And some other vehicles. | ||
| While they were with them. | ||
| So here I am on timeout in my garage sweating my tail off in McAllen. | ||
| And I've got my two phones. | ||
| I'm talking to the undercovers. | ||
| I'm talking to Tim Sylvia. | ||
| I'm telling them where to go. | ||
| They're being covered. | ||
| They go. | ||
| They meet. | ||
| While they're meeting Tim, the truck driver, I suppose playing my truck driver, calls me. | ||
| You can hear me clearly on the recording. | ||
| I'm talking on it. | ||
| And I tell him how much to pay Tim for the stolen vehicles. | ||
| And Tim was like, hey, I'm going to report the BMW stolen on Friday. | ||
| And I said, can you make it Saturday? | ||
| Give me 24 hours more to get this thing into Mexico. | ||
| And they did that. | ||
| And then when they went to load the vehicles, he hit them for an 18, a key for 10 keys. | ||
| And they said yes. | ||
| And they ended the case with them doing a ruse delivery of that dope. | ||
| And so you ask about the relationships. | ||
| So this is how it ends. | ||
| I'm in Nevada helping put on an undercover school. | ||
| That was one thing that Safeguard said I could go to because they also knew they could do many assessments, watch me, put me around other undercovers, make sure I'm not losing my shit. | ||
| And I can't remember the time difference to Massachusetts, but I've already been drawing up diagrams of all these houses and clubhouses I've been in, and I'm, you know, Sending those to all these SWAT teams all over the Northeast that are going to be hitting all these places. | ||
| And I got back to my hotel room, and I always kept my undercover—well, the case wasn't over technically yet anyway, but I always kept my undercover phones on for at least a month after a case went down, in case you got threatened or anything like that. | ||
| Well, I get back to my room, and my next tail's chirping. | ||
| And I check, and it's Scott Town. | ||
| He's left me a message. | ||
| So I chirp him up. | ||
| And he's all a raspy voice because he's been just woken up. | ||
| And he's like, hey, man, I just want you to know your truck driver, Tony, and the other guy, they were beating Big Timmy. | ||
| And I don't know what happened, but I think they all got locked up. | ||
| Well, he doesn't know that I'm an undercover. | ||
| He's telling me that that was the takedown day. | ||
| So he's calling me, and I'm like, oh, I said, you know what, brother, I appreciate that. | ||
| I said, I don't always control everything they do. | ||
| Sometimes they do side jobs on their own. | ||
| I said, they were not up there for me. | ||
| But I'll try to find out what's going on. | ||
| He said, let me tell you what I'm going to do. | ||
| He said, I'm going to get up, get cleaned up. | ||
| I'm going to find out what the hell's going on. | ||
| I'm going to call you back. | ||
| And I said, okay. | ||
| His last words to me were, I'm going to get chugged up. | ||
| His last words to me were, I love you, brother. | ||
| And I chirped back and I said, I love you too. | ||
| And he didn't know that a SWAT team was going to be hitting him in about 40 minutes. | ||
| Wow. That's the last time I talked to him. | ||
| He'll probably hear this. | ||
| I got a 50-50 shot. | ||
| If he walks up, I'll hug him. | ||
| He probably wants to beat the shit out of me. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Jesus. Man. | |
| Is he out? | ||
| Yeah, he's out now. | ||
| How much time did he do? | ||
| I think he did like eight. | ||
| Eight or ten. | ||
| Somewhere in there. | ||
| Do you have this anxiety of running into those guys somewhere? | ||
| Yes and no. | ||
| It really comes with a job. | ||
| However, somebody pointed out a difference to me the other day. | ||
| I'm like, look, man, as a cop. | ||
| Or as an agent, you're locking people up and they're getting out. | ||
| You know, if you get threatened in Greenville County, if you're working for Greenville County Sheriff's Office, let's say we're here. | ||
| Was it Travis County? | ||
| If you get a threat, a legit threat in Travis County, do you think they've got the money in the budget or they would even spend money in their budget to move you to another town? | ||
| No. But in the FBI, we have that. | ||
| You hit the threat system, they move you somewhere, change a bunch of stuff. | ||
| So in law enforcement, There's always been, you can lock people up, you go to the grocery store, you're with your wife and kids, and you see them. | ||
| Everybody handles it their own way. | ||
| For me, my best defense is a good offense. | ||
| I'll just walk right up to you. | ||
| Hey man, holy shit, how are you doing? | ||
| I cannot believe, when did you get out? | ||
| Are you okay? | ||
| Hey, are you on the straight and narrow now? | ||
| Because I'm going to tell you, transparent, there's few things I love more than a success story. | ||
| Sadly, they're very rare in my 28-year career. | ||
| But to see somebody who broke the law, got out, turned themselves around, and are doing great, I love it. | ||
| You do see some of those. | ||
| Yeah. And I'll help them. | ||
| I'm helping one right now. | ||
| I told them, I said, look, if you're doing the right thing, they're like, well, I got a felon on my record. | ||
| I'm like, well, who better to be a reference for you on your application than the guy who gave you the felon? | ||
| If you're doing the right thing, I'll talk for you. | ||
| Wow. We all mess up. | ||
| I mean, shit, you know? | ||
| But that's got to be so complicated because you're the guy who got him arrested. | ||
| It is. | ||
| And I have had threats that were legit. | ||
| And I've had them at the sheriff's office where I was like, what do we do? | ||
| And my lieutenant's like, we're going to get some cops and we're going to knock on that dude's door. | ||
| Okay. And I've also been in the FBI where you could have gotten moved. | ||
| And I decided, no, I'm not. | ||
| Once that case gets taken down, I'm overt. | ||
| Like, a lot of people may not know it. | ||
| I'm not trying to insult intelligence. | ||
| But when you're arrested, I may be arrested with you. | ||
| I may not be. | ||
| There's all kinds of ways we can do a takedown. | ||
| But eventually, you're going to be sitting with your defense attorney. | ||
| And you're going to get discovery. | ||
| And discovery is supposed to be everything. | ||
| Now, there have been FBI people who did not turn over everything. | ||
| And it was very wrong. | ||
| And we are still paying the price for it. | ||
| But discovery is supposed to be everything. | ||
| And at that point, you're going to hear me on a preamble. | ||
| You're going to hear me go. | ||
| Let's see. | ||
| What's the day? | ||
| You're going to hear me go. | ||
| This is UCE, undercover employee. | ||
| This is UCE, one, two, whatever. | ||
| It's Wednesday, March 26th, Central Time, 2.45 p.m. | ||
| I'm about to walk in to meet Joe. | ||
| And they're going to hear that, and they're going to know that I'm the undercover. | ||
| They may not know my last name's Payne, but they're going to know. | ||
| Now, what somebody pointed out to me was, you know, as a cop, though, you're just doing your job and you're arresting them. | ||
| As an undercover, you've lied to them. | ||
| And I went, hmm, probably should have thought about that before I did the book. | ||
| Damn! But I try not to... | ||
| I don't want to live my life in fear. | ||
| I'm an optimist. | ||
| I'm a glasses always half full guy. | ||
| God, that's hard to believe given your circumstances. | ||
| I don't know how... | ||
| For me personally, I don't know how to survive otherwise. | ||
| Because if I was doom and gloom and the glasses always half empty... | ||
| Maybe this is a good time to interject this. | ||
| First responders, military. | ||
| I'm talking fire, medic, cop, military. | ||
| You know what we're number one in? | ||
| Suicide. Suicide. | ||
| You know what else we're number one in? | ||
| Divorce. Alcoholism. | ||
| Throw in pills or whatever you want there. | ||
| We're also number one in dying within five years after retiring. | ||
| Who signs up for that? | ||
| Right. You know? | ||
| Hell yeah. | ||
| First in hell. | ||
| Second in heaven. | ||
| No. No. | ||
| No. I'll pass. | ||
| But yeah, so that hurt. | ||
| I mean, it's very, it's surreal. | ||
| And yeah, great job. | ||
| But yeah, I mean, I'm human. | ||
| And I did really bond with that guy. | ||
| And just like I felt like a piece of trash when Clothesline told me that I was really, he considered me really his friend. | ||
| Wow. What's he doing now? | ||
| I don't know if he's out or not. | ||
| He was supposed to get, I think he got 12 and a half. | ||
| But I didn't keep up with it. | ||
| I mean, sometimes people go to jail, they pick up some more charges because they did something stupid in jail. | ||
| But I will tell you, talking on that success story thing, most of my career, with the exception of a pedophile, almost everybody I've arrested, I'll sit down with them and I'll say, listen, | ||
| I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. | ||
| I'm not saying I disagree with what you did. | ||
| What I'm saying is you're an adult. | ||
| You made a choice to break the law and you got caught. | ||
| So let's just start right here. | ||
| This is all I got. | ||
| This is on the table. | ||
| Let's don't do that date and game BS where you lie to me for two months and I lie to you for two months and then we figure out we really do kind of like each other. | ||
| Now I can tell you the truth. | ||
| This is what I got. | ||
| And it's not dehumanizing and there's still people. | ||
| And I love connecting with people, like I said. | ||
| Wow. That's a great attitude. | ||
| Did you ever think, like, while you're talking to people like Scott Town, like, man, if my life had been different, I'd gone down the wrong roads, grew up in a different neighborhood, you would be one of them. | ||
| Absolutely. Yeah. | ||
| Absolutely. That's why we had so much in common. | ||
| Yeah, that's part of the problem with life. | ||
| Yeah. Everybody wants to pretend that that could never be me. | ||
| No, absolutely. | ||
| It could have easily been me. | ||
| And I'm like, I looked at it and I'm like, it's that proverbial fork in the road. | ||
| I went that way, but I could have easily went that way. | ||
| Yeah. That's why I got along with them so much. | ||
| You know? | ||
| Again, other than like pedophile stuff. | ||
| So what pedophile stuff did you have to do? | ||
| Actually, one of the quickest undercovers I ever did was the most satisfying. | ||
| And I actually did this one, I think, before the outlaws. | ||
| It was in San Antonio. | ||
| There was a guy that got picked up for molesting a kid. | ||
| And I didn't know the whole backstory. | ||
| But in the San Antonio division, the agents and stuff knew me, or the SWAT people, they knew I'm the undercover guy. | ||
| And they called me up because while he was in Bexar County in San Antonio, he approached somebody in jail, solicited them to kill the kid, or to find somebody that could kill the kid. | ||
| A lot of these murder-for-hire plans are stupid, but that actually wasn't too bad of a plan. | ||
| Like, if the kids... | ||
| These cases are tough. | ||
| They suck. | ||
| They're atrocious. | ||
| I mean, it's a waste of oxygen, in my personal opinion. | ||
| But it's usually a kid from a broken home. | ||
| It's after the fact. | ||
| It's an adult versus a kid. | ||
| But he knew he wasn't going to do well in prison. | ||
| So he approached somebody in prison who then, as most people who are serving time do, they are trying to get credit to get out. | ||
| And that person called his attorney, and that attorney called the FBI, and they worked it out to where he intro'd me. | ||
| So I drive up to Bexar County. | ||
| I sign in because he put me on the list. | ||
| I go in, and I'm in the phone bank. | ||
| It's all stainless steel. | ||
| You can't hear nothing but baby mamas, and everybody's screaming and cussing and pissed off. | ||
| And here I am trying to get this recording through this glass, and I'm talking to the guy. | ||
| I said, you know who I am? | ||
| He's like, yeah. | ||
| I said, well, I hope you do because you put me on your list to come see you. | ||
| You know what I do? | ||
| And he's like, yes. | ||
| I was like slow rolling. | ||
| I didn't know. | ||
| I didn't want to scare him off. | ||
| So I was like, you know, I'm in the extermination business. | ||
| And he's like, yeah. | ||
| I said, I kill pests for a living. | ||
| He said, yep. | ||
| That's exactly what I wanted. | ||
| And I had a picture of the kid. | ||
| Of course, we're working with a family on this. | ||
| But I had a picture of the kid just walking like a surveillance photo. | ||
| And I put it up on the window and I said, is this the pest? | ||
| That you want taken care of. | ||
| Something to that effect. | ||
| And clearly on the recording, thank you, Lord, it picked it up. | ||
| He said, that's him. | ||
| So you're not going to call a bug a him, right? | ||
| So what I found out is I met him twice. | ||
| Just a two-meet thing. | ||
| But what I found out from the solicitor's office in Bexar County, it was mostly women working it because the crimes against children was combined with the domestic violence unit. | ||
| And Joe, when I went walking in there, and they're like, this is Scott. | ||
| I mean, they all stood up. | ||
| It's like some TV show. | ||
| They stood up and they started clapping. | ||
| I'm like, I don't understand. | ||
| And this isn't me chest beating. | ||
| That's not what I'm trying. | ||
| But it's like, what is going on? | ||
| And they're like, thank you so much. | ||
| You're so... | ||
| And I'm like, I appreciate it, but I'm doing my job. | ||
| What they told me is that guy had walked on four molestation cases before. | ||
| And he also walked on some possession of... | ||
| Somehow he got out of possession of child pornography stuff. | ||
| But when he found out, when they approached him and said I was an undercover and that they got him, he pled guilty to hiring me to kill the kid and pled guilty to the molestation of the kid. | ||
| Matter of fact, when I was talking to him the first time, he threw me off guard. | ||
| Because he was like, yeah, yeah. | ||
| And I go, all right, well, what do you got? | ||
| And he goes, hey, I'd like you to kill the rest of his family, too. | ||
| They're in Wisconsin. | ||
| And I actually giggled a little bit because it threw me off. | ||
| I went, well. | ||
| I'm not above traveling, but let's deal with one pest at a time. | ||
| I'm thinking in my head, man, go, man. | ||
| But he knew, as most pedophiles do, you're not going to do well in prison. | ||
| So his idea was kill the kid, kill the family, and then there's no evidence? | ||
| Yeah, he just gets to walk. | ||
| Because there's no witness to show up to trial. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Jesus Christ. | |
| Right? Yeah. | ||
| And then being around that stuff, like I've had trainees that, you know, you get a new agent, they come in, they assign you as the training agent, and they might be working that stuff. | ||
| And I will tell you, for me personally, that's tough to work for me. | ||
| It was before I even had girls, before I even had kids. | ||
| I remember seeing like five images. | ||
| We hit a guy. | ||
| He was actually a professor. | ||
| At University of Texas, Pan Am. | ||
| And he was so vigilant. | ||
| I mean, he had like, he had all the child porn videos broken down by ethnicity, age, sex. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, Jesus Christ. | |
| I mean, you could say, I want Asian male 11. And he would have, I mean. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, my God. | |
| And it was just sick. | ||
| Now, did he come from a messed up thing? | ||
| Yeah. Turns out, his mother had molested him and his brother. | ||
| We'd tie them in the basement, tie them to each other, make them have sex with each other. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, my God. | |
| But it's horrific. | ||
| But break the chain, man. | ||
| Break the chain. | ||
| So yeah, I saw like five photos and I was messed up for probably a week or two. | ||
|
unidentified
|
A professor? | |
| Yeah, my wife would try to touch me. | ||
| Not even just to be in, I mean, just to touch. | ||
| And I'd be like, uh-uh. | ||
| No. I'm like, I can't, man. | ||
| I gotta get this shit out of my head. | ||
| Now, later on in undercovers, I could be the guy to drive and pick you up. | ||
| I could show you pictures. | ||
| Is this what you want kind of thing? | ||
| But to like sit there and look through that stuff. | ||
| My brain's not cut out for that. | ||
| But there are those who are, and in the FBI, if you're looking at that, you have to be psychologically assessed as well, as you should. | ||
| I can only imagine. | ||
| How are these guys getting these videos? | ||
| Are they making them? | ||
| Joe, it is. | ||
| See, that's the thing, right? | ||
| It is so huge. | ||
| It is so freaking huge. | ||
| That's the scary thing, because most people aren't aware of it, and this is one of the big conspiracy theories that there's these pedophile rings out there, but they're real. | ||
| Yeah. Yeah, human trafficking. | ||
| Now, I can sway on some of the human trafficking stuff because I've seen human trafficking from the border all the way to the hotel room. | ||
| If it's... | ||
| It's rarely a hooker ever on free will or an escort of on free will. | ||
| But if they're out there doing it, I don't know. | ||
| It gets a little muddy on some of the trafficking stuff for me personally, but it's still trafficking. | ||
| They got brought in when they were underage. | ||
| Now they're a product of what they've been forced to do. | ||
| It's very sad, but as far as the child porn stuff goes, it's insane. | ||
| I've worked with some, they call them ICACs, Crimes Against Children. | ||
| And there's so much out there, but there was so much at once. | ||
| This is just me and Tennessee. | ||
| I'm with them. | ||
| They have so many hits on whatever dark web thing it is. | ||
| It might be Discord. | ||
| I'm trying to think of what it used to be. | ||
| But there's all kinds of stuff like that, that they'll go to these, what they believe are encrypted apps that are based. | ||
| Overseas. So they don't think that the FBI or feds here, the alphabet boys and girls, can do subpoenas and get that stuff. | ||
| That's why they use those. | ||
| Now, does that mean that everybody on Discord's bad? | ||
| Absolutely not. | ||
| Telegram, no. | ||
| But do people go there to do bad things? | ||
| Yep. And it's just like, you could go, I remember them showing me stuff, as the undercover coordinator, I'm over there and I'm looking at stuff, and they're showing me what all the hits they've got right now. | ||
| Just people hitting, and through the databases, you could do knock and talks every freaking day, all day long. | ||
| Hey man, how you doing? | ||
| Hey, if we look at your computer, you might not get in there, but yeah, it's a mess. | ||
| A mess. | ||
| And so there's a whole ring of people all across the country. | ||
| Yeah, or just mom and pops. | ||
| Farming out their kids. | ||
| Oh, my God. | ||
| Yeah. Sex across state lines. | ||
| Oh. Yeah. | ||
| Not good at all. | ||
| There's just, like, again, I'll mention McAllen several times. | ||
| This isn't undercover stuff, but case agent stuff. | ||
| I mean, I might look at doing a book on case agent stuff. | ||
| I was down there working the cartel with me and the people I worked with. | ||
| That was back when OZR Cardenas. | ||
| Ran the Gulf Cartel. | ||
| So it was violent. | ||
| Violent as you know what. | ||
| But there was some kind of SOP. | ||
| There was like a procedure. | ||
| But I mean... | ||
| When I try to tell people, I'm like, look, I don't care whether you're left or right. | ||
| I meet all kinds of people. | ||
| If you're extreme left, I'm probably going to tell you you're an idiot. | ||
| If you're extreme right, I know you're an idiot because I've been with them. | ||
| I'm like, I just want to bring it. | ||
| What's so funny is you start here and you go far left and they're like, I'm a socialist. | ||
| I'm a socialist. | ||
| I want everything for free. | ||
| And you start here on the far right and they're like, I want Hitler. | ||
| I want Hitler. | ||
| But that's socialism. | ||
| You get here, it's the same shit. | ||
| They just want stuff for free. | ||
| I want all whites. | ||
| Well, that'll fix everything. | ||
| You know? | ||
| It's just, it's insane. | ||
| But down on the border, you tell people, you're like, man, they just, I'm not saying that, I'm not trying to shed a bad light on Mexico and stuff, but a lot of it runs on corruption. | ||
| A lot of it runs on money. | ||
| And they do not value life like we do. | ||
| I mean, man, they chop heads off. | ||
| It's Al-Qaeda stuff. | ||
| I mean, they're sawing heads off. | ||
| You find a van full of eight heads. | ||
| We weren't kidnappers and extortions down there all the time back then. | ||
| One of the cases, OZL, we thought it was a wives' tale. | ||
| And this is sick, so I apologize to people that think this is way gross, but it's real. | ||
| The first one isn't that gross. | ||
| He had a line he would feed people to. | ||
| A lion. | ||
| A lion. | ||
| And that was the rumor. | ||
| And then I can't remember if they went up in a fixed wing or a helicopter, but they flew over the line. | ||
| And somebody was asking the other one, hey, what are all those bones? | ||
| And they were like, ayo pollo. | ||
| You know, chicken. | ||
| That's a big-ass chicken. | ||
| That chicken looks like a femur. | ||
| You know? | ||
| So there's that. | ||
| But the one that was really sick is, so when they would kidnap you, like if you lost a load or they thought you stole something or you didn't pay your quotas, because even as an undocumented special interest alien, whatever you want to call it, illegal alien smuggler, you had to pay quotas to the cartel to smuggle through their territory. | ||
| Same thing with Dope. | ||
| If you got behind on that, they'd kidnap you. | ||
| Same M.O. Three Suburbans pull up somewhere in South Texas, jump out on such and such corner. | ||
| Everybody's in black BDUs. | ||
| They grab you. | ||
| That was the safest. | ||
| They were the enforcement cartel. | ||
| They'd take you over, beat you, start calling the family saying, we want $100,000, $300,000, whatever. | ||
| We'd start brokering the deal because we have border liaison officers and we would do cross trainings with military and police in Mexico. | ||
| So the board of liaison officer calls and goes, hey, it's such and such time of day on this corner. | ||
| Three Suburbans pulled up. | ||
| The guy's name is this. | ||
| It was this time of day. | ||
| 30 minutes to an hour later, we get a call back. | ||
| They got him. | ||
| What's the deal? | ||
| He brought a load back and it was missing $100,000. | ||
| Okay, so now I'm in the house with the family going, okay, they want $300,000. | ||
| Well, we don't have it. | ||
| Well, they don't have it. | ||
| They want $100,000. | ||
| We don't have it. | ||
| Well, what do you got? | ||
| We got $60,000. | ||
| What else they got? | ||
| Remember my V8? | ||
| 4x4? They got a Suburban. | ||
| How many miles are on it? | ||
| And here we are at midnight, rolling the Suburban over the bridge with $60,000 to get the sun back. | ||
| Wow. So one of the, we thought was a wives' tale, is that OZL had a, I don't know what the politically correct term is these days, but a midget. | ||
| A small person. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| But the rumor was back then that he had a midget who was very well endowed and he would rape people for the cartel. | ||
| You just let that soak in for a little bit. | ||
| Jesus. My comedy starts coming out. | ||
| I'm like, how do you get this small person? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| That's his thing. | ||
| So we all thought it was BS. | ||
| And then there was a Christmas Eve. | ||
| We started getting calls. | ||
| I was actually driving to Arizona for a vacation, but I was on the phone calling sources and calling all the other agents. | ||
| This guy had basically carjacked a car in Rio Grande City. | ||
| So directly across the river is Camargo. | ||
| So he gets in there. | ||
| He didn't look in the backseat. | ||
| There's an infant. | ||
| Now the cartel's pissed at him for bringing heat, and they are beating him. | ||
| I mean, they used to hit him with the clubs, throw kilos, bricks at him, cigarette burns, cigar burns real big, battery cables, stuff like that, threatening him. | ||
| And we got him back. | ||
| But when he came across the bridge, my peers called me and go, holy shit, Scott, it's real. | ||
| I go, what are you talking about? | ||
| This dude is bawling. | ||
| When? The call came in, and the cartel was like, okay, let this one go. | ||
| The midget was in the room. | ||
| That guy was crying when he came back across the bridge. | ||
| He was getting ready to get raped. | ||
| Wow. Slightly sick, right? | ||
| Yeah, slightly. | ||
| It's a different world. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, that's probably the least bad thing they can do to you. | |
| I don't know. | ||
| I don't know how to look in the mirror after all that. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I mean, you get out alive, I guess. | ||
| It's insane. | ||
| Or do you? | ||
| So, other than the pedophile cases, what were the most shocking cases that you had to do? | ||
| Hmm. Well, they're all a little shocking in their own way. | ||
|
unidentified
|
The pedophile one's got to be the hardest one to sleep at night. | |
| Yeah. Just to know. | ||
| But what a good feeling to get him. | ||
| Right. That's a different feeling. | ||
| That's a non-conflicted feeling when you get him. | ||
| Good. Yeah, when she called me, when the assistant solicitor called me and said, hey, he pled guilty. | ||
| He got 20 for, I can't remember which was for which, but he got 20 years for, I believe, the most molestation in 10 for hiring me to kill him. | ||
| And then they had to do, the state of Texas was 85%. | ||
| So, yeah, it was going to be a tough ride for him. | ||
| Pardon the pun. | ||
| Yeah. But, yeah, so crazy stuff, man, I mean, some of that neo-Nazi stuff was just insane. | ||
| How'd you get involved in that? | ||
| Well, number one, I go where my skill set takes me. | ||
| Number two, we kind of go to what the shift is in the FBI. | ||
| Were people doing a lot of biker club stuff anymore? | ||
| Not at that time. | ||
| I was a criminal investigator for pretty much my entire career. | ||
| But towards the end, in Tennessee, I switched over to the Joint Charism Task Force. | ||
| And I really did it because I was having some disagreements. | ||
| Be likely. | ||
| But I was having disagreements with management. | ||
| And my M.O. had always been, even though I'd burned myself out before, once I got to Tennessee, I set up accountability buddies. | ||
| I set up tripwires and stopped saying yes to everything and made ways to relax and balance and get myself back. | ||
| But towards the end, I switched over to Joint Chairman Task Force because Again, my MO was try to be above average on your squad. | ||
| And then if you're kicking butt on stats and stuff like that, then maybe they won't say no to let me go do the undercover. | ||
| Maybe they won't say no to let me go help put on this SWAT school or this SWAT call-out. | ||
| And that was what I did. | ||
| But that wasn't working for me in Tennessee. | ||
| Anymore. And I went to the head of the division and requested to be moved. | ||
| So I went to Joint Charism Task Force. | ||
| And my skill set kind of led right into that domestic terrorism stuff. | ||
| Because it was like in the state of Tennessee, you have Aryan Nations, which was the Tennessee Department of Corrections. | ||
| TDOC. Prison gang. | ||
| But it's white supremacy. | ||
| So as a case agent, I started working that stuff. | ||
| And then I just started getting more exposed to those kind of cases. | ||
| So now when the canvases start coming up, or we're running an undercover op ourselves, those cases are coming in. | ||
| And it's like, okay, I'll do that one. | ||
| Unless anybody's got a disagreement, you know. | ||
| And that's what I started doing. | ||
| That's how we kind of got into those. | ||
| Because we started getting more threats, you know, after the Charlottesville stuff. | ||
| Now it's really getting kind of on the radar. | ||
| They're like, man, this is, maybe we should be putting more resources. | ||
| Maybe we should be putting, the FBI is saying, maybe we should be putting more resources to this domestic terrorism threat. | ||
| And that's what I started getting. | ||
| I mean, I would go into, I kind of mentioned it earlier, but a neo-Nazi group, but it's mainly online. | ||
| And here I am for five months reading post after post. | ||
| And if I woke up after six hours of sleep and I was 1,500 posts behind, I'd rewind it and read them all for five months because I didn't want to miss anything, me personally. | ||
| I didn't want to miss anything or anything bad happened because I missed something. | ||
| But after five months and maybe meeting them once or twice, it's all First Amendment protected. | ||
| They weren't doing anything to prepare. | ||
| To cause violence. | ||
| They're just preparing for the day. | ||
| And then when the day happens, then they'll be ready. | ||
| But again, I talk to people overseas, Canada, whatever. | ||
| I have to explain. | ||
| I'm like, look, in the United States, we have a constitution. | ||
| And your First Amendment is freedom of speech. | ||
| I said, you can walk out in the street right here and say, I hate every, say a racial slur. | ||
| I hope every racial slur dies. | ||
| That's not illegal. | ||
| As you know, you've seen it. | ||
| You can burn American flags. | ||
| Freedom of speech. | ||
| Try that in China. | ||
| Let me know how that works for you. | ||
| Death to China. | ||
| Light the flag on fire. | ||
| I'm not sure how long you'll last, right? | ||
| Not long. | ||
| But that's what we... | ||
| That's the hard thing about working domestic terrorism is there's no federal domestic terrorism statute. | ||
| So you're trying to see what crimes are they committing, if any, and what can we do to get them off the street if they're planning bad things. | ||
| So how did you infiltrate the neo-Nazi organization? | ||
| Did you actually meet with them in person or was it mostly online? | ||
| I'll just jump to the base. | ||
| Okay. Because the base was the one that's kind of the beginning and the end of the book. | ||
| They were actively recruiting. | ||
| I mean, I was in the Klan, too, for a little while for the job. | ||
| I've got to be careful what I say, right? | ||
| People clip that out. | ||
| Back when I was in the Klan, we were good old boys. | ||
| But they were recruiting openly online. | ||
| The base was. | ||
| And the base is an accelerationist group. | ||
| And that's what I, again, great detail in the book, in the podcast. | ||
| But the thing is, is most people here, white supremacy, they think hoods and robes and crosses on fire, right? | ||
| That's not this, man. | ||
| These are, these are, this is why they're called accelerationists. | ||
| There's a book out there called Siege. | ||
| Written by James Mason. | ||
| Longtime white supremacist. | ||
| It's a weird book. | ||
| It's basically articles and interviews all just shoved together. | ||
| But this guy kind of idolized and interviewed people like Charles Manson. | ||
| You know, what a great role model. | ||
| I mean, if you're looking. | ||
| But he created a group called Atomwaffen. | ||
| And this is what accelerationism is. | ||
| Because when I go to infiltrate the base, I'm just answering stuff they're putting out there. | ||
| Emails. They're posting on Gab. | ||
| Save your race. | ||
| Join the base. | ||
| We're a survivalist group. | ||
| Email us at thebase1 at protonmail.com. | ||
| So I start answering that stuff. | ||
| After about a week or so of emails back and forth asking me everything, my ethnicity, my height, weight, when was my red pill moment, which they kind of use the matrix theme there. | ||
| So if they say, when were you red-pilled? | ||
| As a Christ follower, it's the same thing as when I was baptized or when I got saved, right? | ||
| So if you're an accelerationist or that level of neo-Nazi and they say, what was your red pill moment? | ||
| You need to know it because it's kind of like the big deal. | ||
| That's when you said, hate all other people. | ||
| So after about a week or so of emails, I get on. | ||
| They tell me to download the Wire app, similar to WhatsApp. | ||
| You can call and talk on it and stuff like that. | ||
| Create groups all over it. | ||
| So I do like about an hour and 15 minute interview panel of like four or five people asking me all kinds of stuff. | ||
| I answered best I could, best I prepared for. | ||
| And then they gave me a 24 hour rest period. | ||
| So they said, now that you know what we are, we're going to give you 24 hours to think about if you want to be a part of us. | ||
| And we want 24 hours to think about it. | ||
| But this is what they told me accelerationism was. | ||
| They said, accelerationist, they call it siege culture. | ||
| Kind of barlaying off the book, but they do not believe there's a political solution to save the white race. | ||
| They believe that society is either going to collapse on its own or for man-made events, and they want to speed that up. | ||
| The group I was in was calling that Boogaloo, the Boogaloo. | ||
| And everything always ends with an ethno state. | ||
| Now, it's not saying the groups that I was in, they weren't going to take over the entire United States, but the group I was in... | ||
| One section was looking at property and land in the Appalachian Mountains. | ||
| One section of the base was looking at the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. | ||
| One section of the base had property in the Pacific Northwest. | ||
| So you get in there, you start learning that ideology. | ||
| But again, in the beginning, I'm just ingratiating. | ||
| I mean, we know they've been saying crazy stuff online, but is it illegal per se? | ||
| No. But are they planning on taking steps to do some bad things? | ||
| And that goes back to that domestic terrorism culture. | ||
| You go in, telegram or whatever, and you've got your Terrence and your Brevix, and they're in there, 4chan, 8chan, and they're posting right before they go and commit all the murders. | ||
| You know, here I am. | ||
| I'm going live. | ||
| Watch this. | ||
| But imagine being in law enforcement and trying to look at all these thousands of posts and trying to figure out, well, which one's actually going to follow through? | ||
| Which one is seriously... | ||
| Planning on doing something. | ||
| So you always got to stay vigilant and keep going after it. | ||
| So what were these guys planning on doing? | ||
| What was their accelerate moment? | ||
| Well, per the siege culture, they like to do guerrilla warfare tactics. | ||
| So they're against the Charlottesville stuff. | ||
| Being in a group... | ||
| Picket signs, screaming racial slurs, you know, all this stuff. | ||
| They're against that. | ||
| They're like, that's stupid. | ||
| You're number one, you're making yourself a target. | ||
| You're not doing anything. | ||
| It's more guerrilla warfare tactics where, let's say over here in Austin, power grid goes down. | ||
| Over here, train gets derailed. | ||
| Over here, water systems poisoned. | ||
| Anything to create chaos and killing of anybody left. | ||
| Anti-fash, non-whites, very anti-Semitic. | ||
| Very. Like, way more than... | ||
| It kind of opened my eyes when I started getting into some of these neo-Nazis, because for the most part, I thought... | ||
| When I thought racism, I thought white against black, right? | ||
| But these neo-Nazis groups I was in, man, they are anti-Semitic, man. | ||
| They cannot stand Jews. | ||
| Wow. It's like... | ||
| Like, it's sickening if you listen to it. | ||
| But again, they want that Hitler. | ||
| They want Hitler back. | ||
| I mean, some of these guys were, like, talking about... | ||
| Concave Earth, Hollow Earth, Hitler's still alive. | ||
| He's in Hollow Earth. | ||
| He's with giant white men who are Anglo, white with red hair and 15 plus foot tall. | ||
| And I'm like, and I go, so where are these 15 foot tall white guys? | ||
| And they're like, well, they're in Middle Earth with Hitler. | ||
| They're waiting. | ||
| And I go, for what? | ||
| NBA contracts. | ||
| Come on, let's do this. | ||
| Let's take this thing down. | ||
| And sometimes I'm just comical with them. | ||
| You're like, hey, we're neo-Nazis. | ||
| Yeah, we're going to get to ethnostate. | ||
| Yeah, we're ready for the boogaloo. | ||
| Yeah, we're building our kit. | ||
| Yeah, who's going to be Hitler? | ||
| And everybody goes, oh, there's only one, buddy. | ||
| Are we going to fight it out right now? | ||
| Who's going to win this thing? | ||
| But what happened with the base is a lot of them were into the pagan. | ||
| And I say this loosely. | ||
| I have plenty of friends that are, Pagan. | ||
| Satru, and they are great people. | ||
| Love them. | ||
| What do you mean by pagan? | ||
| So there's different pantheons, but the most common one is Norse mythology. | ||
| Basically the, you know, it's basically the Marvel universe. | ||
| So they worship ancient Viking culture? | ||
| Yeah, Odin, Thor, whatever. | ||
| Really? Yeah, oh yeah, man. | ||
| Wait, there's a church for that? | ||
| Well, I don't want to say a church per se, but yeah, the whole blot is, just think Viking kind of stuff. | ||
| The ones that do it that are serious. | ||
| They're upset that white supremacists have taken their stuff and used it. | ||
| But if you look at Hitler, Hitler was already looking into that Norse mythology, too. | ||
| He had looking for Thor's hammer or whatever, the Holy Grail, biblical, and all this stuff. | ||
| But there's Christian identity, which is making a comeback in the white supremacy realm, not to be confused with Christianity. | ||
| Christian identity is, if you can wrap your mind around this... | ||
| A lot of them have a dual seed line belief. | ||
| So they take the story of the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the serpent, and the fruit of the forbidden tree. | ||
| They take that story and they say, okay, it's still the same except the fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act with the serpent who is a man of color, also known as Satan. | ||
| And then when Satan sleeps with Eve, their offspring is Cain. | ||
| And they are the mud race from then on. | ||
| That's what they call them. | ||
| Mud race. | ||
| Non-white. | ||
| Mud race from then on down. | ||
| But the procreation from Adam and Eve is able. | ||
| And that's the pure white race. | ||
| That's just one of the many belief systems. | ||
| So when you see... | ||
| I know, right? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, I'm like shaking my head like, what the fuck? | |
| How did you get that? | ||
| What are they using as like references? | ||
| Like how do they get this information? | ||
| So as far back as... | ||
| That I know. | ||
| I'm sure it came out earlier, but there was the Aryan Nation, Reverend Butler, Red Ray Fair, and all that stuff, and they taught that. | ||
| They taught the Christian identity. | ||
| Church of Jesus Christ Christian. | ||
| And they take that and twist it, you know, as if Jesus is just a white guy. | ||
| And so did you physically meet with these guys and infiltrate their organization? | ||
| Yeah, some of those, yes. | ||
| And the Christian identity was kind of in the Klan belief that I was in for a short moment. | ||
| But the pagan, just like I said that the Christian identity takes the Bible and twists it, then the paganism is taking Norse mythology or if you're an Egyptian pantheon or whatever, and they're twisting it toward their white supremacy. | ||
| And that's not what paganism really is. | ||
| If you know, like again, I've got friends that do it. | ||
| They're upset with white supremacists. | ||
| Using their stuff. | ||
| But then again, in the base, there was a guy who was an Isatri priest, and he led the first blot I ever attended, BLOT, which is kind of like the worship ceremony for pagans. | ||
| I mean, we're down there with our shirts off, wiping blood on our chest, drinking mead, as if we're Vikings, and then praying to our gods. | ||
| And they would take wood, carve the wood, and they would carve runes and white supremacy symbols in it, and we would cut ourselves and bleed. | ||
| On the runes and then set that on fire and pray until the fire went out. | ||
| Whoa. Yeah. | ||
| How many of these guys are out there in the world? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I mean, there's academia and stuff. | ||
| They're like, there's millions of white supremacists and Nazis are going to be on your doorstep tomorrow. | ||
| I'm not going to say that. | ||
| Well, they want to call everything white supremacy, which is a real problem because there's actual white supremacy out there. | ||
| Yeah. And when you call everything white supremacist... | ||
| Just somebody disagreeing or having a different belief system? | ||
| Watching a video of a fucking crazy professor who was saying that marriage is white supremacist. | ||
| It's the craziest video of all time. | ||
| This is an undercover video where they interviewed this lady and they were asking her questions and she didn't know she was being recorded. | ||
| She was a professor. | ||
| Yeah. Marriage is thin privilege. | ||
| It's white supremacy. | ||
| It's male privilege, which leads to white supremacy and white privilege. | ||
| Just a bunch of gobbledygook nonsense words that she was attaching to just people getting married. | ||
| Clearly she's not a Christ follower. | ||
| If you follow the Bible, it lays out what marriage is. | ||
| She's definitely not. | ||
| She's a kook. | ||
| The problem is calling everything white supremacy. | ||
| It obscures the fact that there's really people like the people that you're running into. | ||
| They're real. | ||
| It's just like, how many of them and where are they? | ||
| Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? | ||
| Yeah, I'd say. | ||
| I don't know about hundreds of thousands, but I'd say thousands. | ||
| Because a lot of times, if you're in that community and you're looking, let's say this is a telegram channel over here, and it's Terror Wave or whatever it is before it was taken down, and you see all these monikers, like I was Pell Horse in the base. | ||
| I was Pell Horse. | ||
| That was my moniker. | ||
| And then you see Pestilence, and you see TMB, the Militant Buddhist, and you see Helter Skelter, and you say, well, you might go to another group. | ||
| Maybe they've changed their moniker. | ||
| But you start realizing, hey, did you used to be pestilence in the other channel? | ||
| Yeah, that's me. | ||
| You know what I mean? | ||
| But what's scary is, like in that base case, as I said before, I'm a tactical instructor, firearms instructor. | ||
| I'm an alert instructor, which is right near where we're at right now in San Marcos, Texas. | ||
| But you can't go undercover and help these guys. | ||
| Train or help them get better because they might be doing bad things. | ||
| So I go in, I had my whole backstory, former skinhead, former biker, and my skill set was like hand-to-hand combat. | ||
| Could I shoot? | ||
| Yeah, but I let them lead me. | ||
| We went out there, and the first time we did tactical and firearms training, it was led by a 19-year-old kid, and it was good. | ||
| It was good. | ||
| And he's not military. | ||
| And I'm like, I'm watching, I'm like, where the hell did you learn this? | ||
| So a lot of stuff happens on gaming systems because they're so realistic now. | ||
| Wow. Yeah. | ||
| I mean, these kids, you can go on and if you got your mic on, you might get your butt handed to you by an 11-year-old kid who's telling you to clear the hard corner and slice the pie. | ||
| They're using the same verbiage. | ||
| And I'm like, holy crap. | ||
| You know, virtual world meets real world. | ||
| Only problem is, in the virtual world, you get to respawn. | ||
| Not so much in the real world, you know. | ||
| I'm going to respawn now. | ||
| But, yeah, he led it, and they were shooting fast and accurate. | ||
| It wasn't the best. | ||
| They were mistakes. | ||
| But I was impressed with how safe they were, the two guys running it, TMB and Pestilence, because that was a concern for me. | ||
| If you could see the aerial footage, when we first go out there and they're shooting, I'm way back behind them because I'm like, I don't know how these people are with guns. | ||
| I've seen plenty of bad shooters do some stupid things on the line. | ||
| And then we start working like that. | ||
| So I start gaining their trust, do a couple of blots, hikes, drinking, rucking, whatever. | ||
| And then it starts, we're finding out a little bit more, not necessarily anything criminal, except for the fact that there was a Canadian who was part of their, basically, it would be like their National Guard, but he got doxed. | ||
| And for the listeners that don't know, doxing basically is being outed. | ||
| So a lot of these accelerationist groups are big on... | ||
| Putting up flyers and stickers. | ||
| They go by and they slap up stickers everywhere, you know, save your race, join the base with a QR code. | ||
| You scan that QR code, it takes you right to bit shoot to a video of us, of a propaganda recruitment video we filmed in Georgia. | ||
| Wow. Of us shooting and everything. | ||
| And so there's one in Canada, he puts up flyers, somebody answers it. | ||
| Again, it's more in-depth in the book, but he meets this guy. | ||
| The guy does the same panel kind of thing I did, but then he gets vetted face-to-face. | ||
| So when you get vetted face-to-face, it's going to be a little bit more intense. | ||
| They do a face-to-face vetting of this guy, and he says the Punished Snake was the moniker. | ||
| His name is Patrick Matthews. | ||
| He was up there, and he vetted him face-to-face and said he's good to go. | ||
| So after about a week to two weeks, tops. | ||
| In the main chat group, this dude bails. | ||
| And it turns out that he was a journalist in Canada who went on his own and met Patrick Matthews and infiltrated, at least to a certain degree, the base. | ||
| And then he puts out in a big news article up there that this guy is Patrick Matthews. | ||
| And so Pat... | ||
| RCMP comes to his house, takes his guns, he gets booted from the National Guard thing, loses his job, his parents don't like him anymore, and they lose him. | ||
| They find his truck near the border of the United States. | ||
| So we're all looking for him. | ||
| And you have to realize that on the base case... | ||
| Let's just say you've got 40 targets. | ||
| Well, they're all over the world. | ||
| A lot of them in the United States. | ||
| Well, every one of those FBI field offices are open separate cases. | ||
| But we're all trying to work together because it's the same group. | ||
| And we get to a point to where... | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| We were looking for Patrick Matthews. | ||
| And there's an unbelievable case agent. | ||
| We had several on the case, but Nate Plew was running the case out of Seattle because the leader of the base had property in Seattle's territory. | ||
| But there was a case agent named Rasheed who's out of Baltimore, and he's running for the guys there. | ||
| Rasheed was able to figure out by some unbelievable phone | ||
| when— | ||
| We're all looking for him. | ||
| We think we might know where he's at. | ||
| And I show up at a training in North Georgia, in Rome, Georgia, and he's there. | ||
| When I pulled up, I see vehicles and I'm counting heads under the barn. | ||
| And I'm like, there's one extra person. | ||
| I know that's that person's car. | ||
| And I said, well, I'll see when I walk up. | ||
| I walk up and by then his hair had all grown out and had a red bushy beard. | ||
| And he's like, as soon as he started talking, it was a Canadian accent. | ||
| And I was like, hey man, welcome to the United States, brother. | ||
| So now we had him there. | ||
| And now we're starting to find out a little bit more about death plots and this, that, and the other. | ||
| But is it just drunk talk or are they actually planning on doing something? | ||
| And then that's when we get to the big Halloween of 2019 hate camp. | ||
| And there was base members that came in from all over the United States. | ||
| Again, I've done some pagan blots with them. | ||
| Like I said, cut yourself. | ||
| I remember the first time I did it, I was like, damn it, why didn't I bring my own knife? | ||
| And when it was time to cut your finger, the tip of their knife was broken. | ||
| And I'm like, well, I'm not going to slice my damn arm open, my tats, and I'm not going to slice my finger open. | ||
| I'm trying to stab my finger to bleed with a broken tip. | ||
| Note to self, bring your own knife next time. | ||
| So I did. | ||
| But we're doing Halloween. | ||
| We're there, and I doze off. | ||
| We've already done hand-to-hand combat, some firearm stuff. | ||
| Had a couple of drinks, and I'm charging my phone in my truck. | ||
| It's really cold, so I kind of doze off. | ||
| I wake up to pounding on my window. | ||
| Pale horse, pale horse, you got to get up. | ||
| You got to see this. | ||
| You got to see this. | ||
| I'm like, what's going on? | ||
| And they're like, man, remember us talking about a sacrifice and a goat? | ||
| I'm like, yeah. | ||
| And they go, we got the goat. | ||
| So I get out, and there's this ram. | ||
| In the back of one of the members' trucks, they had gone not far away to a house that had three rams, and they all dressed up, and I'll paint the picture for you, because the clothing, the camouflage pattern that the base wore was Flechtarn, | ||
| because Flechtarn pattern is German. | ||
| Again, Heil Hitler kind of stuff. | ||
| So they went where balaclavas cover everything up. | ||
| They hop fences, steal this ram, and bring it back to the farm in Rome, Georgia. | ||
| So I wake up, and I walk out there, and this thing's crapping all over the bed of the truck. | ||
| And one of the members, a pretty big fellow, he says, man, this thing's shitting everywhere. | ||
| And I said, well, hell, I wouldn't be too if I just got kidnapped by a bunch of dudes and flecked horn and balaclavas, you know? | ||
| So now we're kind of preparing, and I'm thinking, man, are we really going to do this? | ||
| And I walked over to the guy. | ||
| He went by Eisen, and he was going to be leading the blot. | ||
| And Eisen says, I go over to him, and I go, man, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? | ||
| And he says, you can't let the goat hear you say that. | ||
| And I'm like, okay, do tell. | ||
| And he's like... | ||
| He goes, this is a sacrifice to Odin. | ||
| This is a beautiful sacrifice. | ||
| We love this ram. | ||
| We love this goat, whatever the hell it was. | ||
| We love it, and we're showing it love, and it is being blessed to go to Valhalla and meet Odin. | ||
| So the rule was, everybody leave your weapons, and we're going to go down to the holy spot and deep in the woods. | ||
| 100-acre farm, by the way. | ||
| And we're walking down there. | ||
| And the goat's just making all kinds of racket. | ||
| And we get down. | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| Let me rewind just a little bit. | ||
| I'm trying to figure out in my head. | ||
| Should I do this? | ||
| Or should I just blow the case right now? | ||
| And I'm thinking, well, they said they took the goat. | ||
| Okay, so that's theft of an animal. | ||
| That's not federal. | ||
| I'm trying to go through my head. | ||
| So I go to my truck. | ||
| And I lean into one of my devices. | ||
| And I'm like, hey. | ||
| If y'all can hear me, because when I was out in the field, I'm covered. | ||
| So for that four-day hate camp, they were covering me 24-7, running shifts, they being law enforcement. | ||
| And I go and I go, hey, if y'all can hear me, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to go down here and sacrifice this animal. | ||
| And I'm running it through my brain, and I know they said they stole it, but I can't come up with a good enough reason to stop this right now. | ||
| If you guys don't want me to do this, you've got to send me a sign and let me know. | ||
| And I waited, and I waited, and it was crickets. | ||
| And then I said, okay, I guess I'm going down to the woods. | ||
| So we go down there. | ||
| You had your chance. | ||
| I was waiting. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, my God. | |
| So we go down to the woods, and we get there. | ||
| And I don't know how. | ||
| I ended up at the back of the goat. | ||
| We're in a circle around the goat. | ||
| And I'm at the back of it. | ||
| And Eisen, who's leading the blot, is talking about we're going to be starting the wild hunt. | ||
| In Norse mythology, the wild hunt is basically Odin and a bunch of other gods going out in the middle of the night and whipping the crap out of every other god that they didn't like or whatever. | ||
| In the twisted version of the base, starting the wild hunt was going to start with the sacrifice of this goat, which he named Gar. | ||
| His middle name was Garfield, named after his grandfather. | ||
| To show love to the goat, he named it Gar, after his grandfather. | ||
| Okay. So he says, once we do the sacrifice, and it goes to Valhalla, that the wild hunt will start, but the wild hunt was going to be cleansing the world of non-whites. | ||
| So the goat was the start of this whole... | ||
| Wild hunt. | ||
| The wild hunt. | ||
| It's in North mythology. | ||
| It's called the wild hunt. | ||
| But again, they're twisting it from white supremacy beliefs. | ||
| So he's got this machete-type object, and I'm at the back of the goat, and he's going through it. | ||
| He says this Odin prayer, and he didn't lead the blot near as good as the actual Asatru priest that did it before, but he's trying. | ||
| And he's going back with this machete, and I'm holding the back of the goat, and somebody's holding the front of the goat. | ||
| He's coming down, he's practicing, practicing, and he's a pretty stocky kid. | ||
| And finally somebody says, just do it. | ||
| Man, he rears back with all of his strength and comes down right on the back of the neck of the goat. | ||
| I don't even know if it broke a hair, Joe. | ||
| I don't know if it's because the back strap of the goat was so thick or the blade was dull, but when he hit it, all you heard was, And for that split second, I'm holding the back of the goat, and I go, Oh, man, I just saw blood. | ||
| I just pictured something bad happening. | ||
| And then somebody says, has anybody got a gun? | ||
| Do you hear, do it again, do it again. | ||
| It might take two swings, and you hear, does anybody got a gun? | ||
| Well, I told you, we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down. | ||
| Well, this one cat, who was probably the least qualified person to be carrying a firearm anywhere within miles of us, said, yeah, I got mine. | ||
| And we were like, what are you doing with your gun? | ||
| So, TMB takes the gun, hands it to Eisen. | ||
| Eisen, we're still all on our knees in a circle around the goat for this sacrifice. | ||
| Eisen points the gun at the goat, goat's head, and then turns the opposite way. | ||
| Oh, Jesus. | ||
| And that's when the instructor enemy comes out. | ||
| I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. | ||
| He's like, what? | ||
| I go, look at what you're shooting at, man. | ||
| We're all in a circle. | ||
| What the hell are you doing? | ||
| So then he chambers around and gets up close. | ||
| Pow! Even on the recording, you can hear the goat hit the ground. | ||
| Well, I was sitting there twitching. | ||
| It's been like two, three minutes. | ||
| It's still twitching. | ||
| And I'm like, hey, why don't you go put another bullet in the ram? | ||
| He's like, I think it's dead. | ||
| And I go, I'm just saying, for the love of the goat and it being happy in Valhalla, let's give it a good clean kill. | ||
| I'm trying to use this logic again. | ||
| And he puts another one in it, and then somebody says, yeah, it's definitely dead. | ||
| So you think it's over. | ||
| No, it's not over. | ||
| Now they slice the goat's throat. | ||
| And fill a cup with all of its blood. | ||
| And one of the guys had brought a sheet of acid. | ||
| Eisen had brought a sheet of acid. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, boy. | |
| Yeah, right? | ||
| It's supposed to help with a shaman, which is kind of entering the spirit world during your blot. | ||
| You're going to get high. | ||
| I'm shining the light because it's pitch dark. | ||
| We're in the middle of the woods. | ||
| And I'm shining the light for Eisen. | ||
| He's going around. | ||
| And what's happening is he's tearing off a tab. | ||
| Not everybody did it. | ||
| Of course, I didn't do it. | ||
| But he tears off a tab, puts it under a tongue. | ||
| Some people haven't even done it before. | ||
| And then you chase it down with the blood of the goat. | ||
| It's part of the sacrifice. | ||
| So he gets around. | ||
| Some people do it. | ||
| Most people do it. | ||
| A couple of us didn't. | ||
| And then it gets to me. | ||
| And I'm looking at the cup full of blood, and by this time, it's coagulating. | ||
| It's all clotty. | ||
| And I'm looking at it, and I'm like, oh, man, I do not want to turn that up. | ||
| I really don't want to turn it up. | ||
| And I think it was Pestilence that gave me an out. | ||
| He said, man, you can just taste it. | ||
| So I stuck my finger all the way down in the blood, pulled it out, sucked all the blood off my finger. | ||
| And that was my way of dealing with the sacrifice. | ||
| Not exactly fear factor stuff. | ||
| But I would have sucked. | ||
| I would have been good on that show except for the gross stuff. | ||
| But yeah. | ||
| But disgusting. | ||
| So over the next, actually the next day of training was completely obliterated because everybody, 90% of the members were all still high. | ||
| Been up all night on acid. | ||
| So we couldn't train the next day. | ||
| And I was pissed. | ||
| I told them, this is a wasted freaking day. | ||
| I said, you sons of, you know, I was giving them a hard time. | ||
| And then by Saturday we were back training again. | ||
| And then by Sunday night, I'm sorry. | ||
| Friday we were training again, and by Saturday night we did a bunch more training through the day, like, you know, navigating the land, living off the land, building bunkers and stuff like that. | ||
| And then it's time to shoot some more for the propaganda video. | ||
| So we go back down in the woods, and now we're doing a bonfire at the holy spot, and we are burning American flags. | ||
| And we're burning Holy Bibles while everybody's yelling, F your Jewish God, death to America, stuff like that. | ||
| And I remember the one kid that was pretty clumsy. | ||
| He almost fell in the fire trying to light the flag on fire. | ||
| And in the video, you can see me grab the other side. | ||
| Part of me wanted to just let him fall. | ||
| I don't know if he went up in flames or not, but a little Darwinism. | ||
| But I hold the flag. | ||
| We burn the American flag. | ||
| We're screaming all that. | ||
| And they take Holy Bibles. | ||
| And this is on the video. | ||
| They lay them face down in the fire. | ||
| And I watch the fire go up. | ||
| It's coming back down. | ||
| We've been there a minute. | ||
| Hell yeah, high-fiving, white power, all this stuff. | ||
| And it's coming back down. | ||
| And if you've ever seen like a book in a fire, all those pages, it looks a certain way, kind of ashy. | ||
| Well, the one guy, the Canadian guy, he can't not screw with a fire. | ||
| He's over there. | ||
| He's probably still got an asinine system. | ||
| Who knows? | ||
| He's still poking the fire. | ||
| So he's stoking it back up. | ||
| Well, while he's trying to stoke it back up, he flips something over. | ||
| A Bible opens face up and there's nothing burnt on it at all. | ||
| Like the outside's charred, but there's not a single page burnt. | ||
| And I'm like, okay, that's different. | ||
| So he's trying to get it started. | ||
| He starts tearing page by page, gets it on fire. | ||
| Bonfire goes back up. | ||
| We're all doing our thing. | ||
| Bonfire comes back down. | ||
| He's poking the coals again. | ||
| I'll be damned if another Bible doesn't flip open completely unburned. | ||
| And I watched them put it on their face first. | ||
| Now, I know some people with science, and they're like, well, in a lot of Bibles, the page is made out of clay, and they don't burn. | ||
| But listen, I watched the flag burn. | ||
| I watched all that stuff burn. | ||
| And I actually have a picture that if you blow it up, I didn't realize it. | ||
| I was just taking pictures like everybody else was taking pictures. | ||
| But I was in my hotel room one night just going through my pictures, and I blew it up, and you can clearly see a holy Bible in the flames. | ||
| So I'm a believer. | ||
| My faith is huge throughout the book. | ||
| I would not have been able to do any of it, in my opinion. | ||
| But I remember when that second Bible flipped open, one of the base members goes, he goes, man, these effing Bibles just won't burn. | ||
| And I remember I did it very nonchalantly, maybe only in my head, but I did a little Sammy Sosa. | ||
| You know, to the sky, you know? | ||
| I'm like, yeah, you get them, Lord. | ||
| Yeah, I'm like, yeah, that's funny. | ||
| By the way, if you want to blow everybody up, y'all just let Scotty know and I'll be real still right now. | ||
| But, yeah, so after that week, I kind of said, I got a pretty dumb sense of humor, but I got back to the office and I said, man, I've been doing undercover work off and on since 1996. | ||
| And I said, I know my skill set takes me to different places than other people. | ||
| I said, but I have never had to burn Bibles. | ||
| Burn an American flag. | ||
| And I damn sure it wasn't with a group of people that went out and stole a goat and sacrificed it at a pagan ritual and drank his blood. | ||
| I said, I've done that in three days with these guys. | ||
| And I mean, I felt weird. | ||
| I felt weird when I got back. | ||
| I just, you know, I called, I even texted my pastor. | ||
| I'm like, I need you to say a prayer. | ||
| I just felt, I don't know, dirty, something. | ||
| Yeah. Felt weird, you know? | ||
| Which is weird that guys like that exist and organize and find other guys like that and get together. | ||
| It's online. | ||
| It's this phone. | ||
| I know. | ||
| Listen, a lot of these kids were young. | ||
| I say kids because it was the first alias I ever did where I made myself younger. | ||
| My whole FBI career, I was always two years older. | ||
| It was just easy to remember. | ||
| I mean, I turned 40 with the outlaws. | ||
| So when I turned 42 years later in real life and I'm in wherever I was at, McAllen or Tennessee, I'm like, yeah, my other party was a little better. | ||
| I'm not going to lie. | ||
| I'm like, you know, the outlaws party was... | ||
| I mean, thank you guys for throwing me a party, but it's not really nothing compared to when I turned 42 years ago. | ||
| But for the base, I had to hustle and get in there fast because we were getting calls from world working partners because, again, this is online. | ||
| You hop in those groups, there's people from South Africa, Australia, UK, Norway. | ||
| You name it. | ||
| Because it's online. | ||
| Now, they may not be able to get weapons like we got weapons, but they were even planning on flying into the States and doing some hate crimes. | ||
| Well, I'm sure we'd be doing hate crimes, but a hate camp. | ||
| But they dive in. | ||
| And what I saw a lot of is younger guys, outcasts, don't have a job, can't get a partner. | ||
| They just dive down this rabbit hole of hate. | ||
| They've probably been bullied. | ||
| And they dive down this rabbit hole of hate. | ||
| And it seems like it goes back to gangs and cults and stuff like that. | ||
| It's that need to belong. | ||
| And they want to bring you in. | ||
| And that's how they get you. | ||
| And then power. | ||
| And being inclusive. | ||
| Having people with your own like mind. | ||
| But that's not just on the white supremacy side. | ||
| Same thing's happening on the... | ||
| Radical Islamicide. | ||
| Yeah. They're radicalizing you online, inundating you with videos. | ||
| You could go into Gab. | ||
| I don't even know if Gab's still around, but you could go into Gab and there would be a group called 14 Words. | ||
| Well, that's the 14 words coined by David Lane. | ||
| It is famous in the white supremacy culture. | ||
| It says something to the effect I don't have it memorized anymore. | ||
| As I say a lot of times when I'm speaking, I go, hey, just so you guys know, I appreciate the questions, but since I retired, I made a conscious decision not to hang out with white supremacists anymore. | ||
| Probably a good decision. | ||
| I mean, I appreciate you asking me, but... | ||
| Were they the wackiest people that you were around? | ||
| It's going to be close. | ||
| Well, obviously the pedophiles are the most disturbing. | ||
| Well, yeah, but it's going to be close, but the... | ||
| I don't want to say I'm not easily shocked. | ||
| It's just that, I mean, you see so much stuff. | ||
| It's like, again, it's that proverbial coroner who shows up eating a sandwich with brains everywhere because they've seen them. | ||
| They've got to eat. | ||
| You know, they're just used to it. | ||
| So there's definitely been some wacky things. | ||
| I mean, on the case agent side, that stuff on the border was pretty wacky. | ||
| But undercover-wise, these guys, I mean, they were... | ||
| I don't know about calling them wacky, but just, they were planning it. | ||
| I mean, what we did is we uncovered violent, we uncovered several murder plots. | ||
| They had found a couple that they believed were an Antifa couple, a couple of counties over in Georgia, and we went and cased the place. | ||
| The idea was, it started, it took a while to come to fruition because it changed a couple of times, but essentially what was agreed upon is that we were all going to beat the Georgia cell. | ||
| When I say cell, it's C-E-L-L, which by the way, it's probably a good time to say, the base in Arabic is Al-Qaeda. | ||
| Oh, wow. | ||
| So Al-Qaeda wanted to have three to five man cells, C-E-L-L, I know I got a redneck accent, cells all over the world waiting on that D-Day call. | ||
| Well, the base, which stands for Al-Qaeda, wanted three to five man cells all over the world waiting for the Boogaloo. | ||
| Wow. You've got kids, 21-year-old, has no car, has no job, but has an arsenal in his closet. | ||
| He's wearing plate carriers or the same plate carriers that FBI SWAT team wears. | ||
| It's not cheap stuff. | ||
| And however they're getting their money, either from parents or whatever they're doing, they are building their kit for what they refer to as the day, the set-off of the race war. | ||
| So we uncovered those murder plots. | ||
| Helter Skelter, we got to postpone it. | ||
| Because once we figured out they were trying to kill people, man, we got to slow this thing down and make sure we've got control of it. | ||
| Much like a murder for hire. | ||
| If you're hiring me to kill somebody, I want to make sure that I got the contract so you're not out trying to find somebody else to kill this person. | ||
| So we were riding out there and Helter had not seen the house yet. | ||
| And Helter, I'll tell you the plan in a second. | ||
| Helter, we're riding out there and Helter goes, hey, If you don't mind, man, I'd really like to pop my cherry on this one. | ||
| Well, you and I hear pop my cherry, it probably means something different. | ||
| Because I was like, what are you talking about? | ||
| And then Luke, TMB, told me, he goes, I think he actually wants to participate in the killing. | ||
| And he said, man, I've been waiting for this for two years. | ||
| He goes, I actually want to put one of the bullets in their head. | ||
| And I said, well, it's a.22,.25, whatever, with the silencer on it. | ||
| It may take more than one. | ||
| It shouldn't be a big deal. | ||
| But the idea was, and this is how much research was done. | ||
| We're going to go to a campsite. | ||
| We're going to leave everything electronic there. | ||
| We're going to leave from there. | ||
| We're going to have a car that doesn't come back to anybody, rental car, whatever, fake plates, whatever. | ||
| We're going to go to a pay-by-the-hour hotel, motel. | ||
| We're going to go there. | ||
| We're going to scrub and scrub and wash and wash to get any flakes of skin that may be loose to come off. | ||
| As detailed as Vaseline on your eyebrows. | ||
| Facial hair so you don't drop any kind of DNA. | ||
| Tape up, kind of like WMD. | ||
| We're going to tape our jacket to our gloves, our pants to our boots, so nothing can leak out. | ||
| Luke had even done so much research. | ||
| He had read that a lot of people who kill somebody for the first time lose control of their bowels. | ||
| So he was suggesting we all wear Depends while we go commit the murder. | ||
| I didn't tell him I'd ever killed anybody, but I looked at him and said, I think I'm okay. | ||
| I don't need to wear Depends. | ||
| So that was the thing. | ||
| And then we were going to go into the house, breach our way in, murder whoever's there. | ||
| Because it was like, are there any kids there? | ||
| Helter was like, I don't have a problem killing a commie kid. | ||
| Now Helter kind of looked like a normal guy. | ||
| Had a computer IT job. | ||
| He said that was a great cover for him. | ||
| Wow. Because everybody thinks he's just a normal person in society. | ||
| This is a guy who also told me. | ||
| He said, Again, they want to accelerate the downfall. | ||
| This guy told me, he said, I voted for Hillary Clinton. | ||
| And I was like, I'm in here with neo-Nazis. | ||
| They threw me off guard. | ||
| I'm like, why would you do that? | ||
| And he goes, think about it, bro. | ||
| He said, we want to accelerate the collapse of society. | ||
| He goes, if she gets in, they usually try to defund the police. | ||
| They make our military weaker. | ||
| There's going to be riots. | ||
| There's going to be all this stuff. | ||
| And there's just going to be chaos. | ||
| It'll help speed up the downfall of society. | ||
| Wow. That's what their thinking is. | ||
| So, we've got that murder plot going on, and then you have the Canadian guy and his cell up in, actually, it would have been Can't Go Back, which is Brian Limley. | ||
| They had a cell up in the Maryland area. | ||
| And I went up, and I trained with them, and they, at that point in time, so it would have been coming up to January of 2020, there was going to be a huge Second Amendment rally in Virginia because the governor at the time was pretty liberal, | ||
| did not like guns, and was going to be making a lot of—was trying to crack down on guns, Second Amendment. | ||
| So the idea of those base members was— What if that's the set-off of the Boogaloo? | ||
| What if, while all those people are there, you've got three percenters, which is not illegal, you've got militia, which is not illegal, but you've got people wanting to do nefarious things, most likely. | ||
| You've got cops. | ||
| What if we just pop a couple of rounds, nobody knows who's shooting at who, and maybe that's the kickoff of the Boogaloo. | ||
| Again, there's not a lot of forethought and afterthought with these guys. | ||
| It's like, what about the National? | ||
| I mean, what about Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine? | ||
| What about frickin' cops? | ||
| You know, we'll deal with that. | ||
| What about girlfriends? | ||
| I ask them, I go, you know, I hear you guys talking about procreation all the time. | ||
| I don't see any women. | ||
| I got a woman. | ||
| She's not for share. | ||
| And they're like, oh, we'll just rape them. | ||
| And I go, I'm sorry, what? | ||
| He goes, yeah, we're just going to rape the women. | ||
| When D-Day happens and it's the bug look, yeah, we're just going to take the women and rape them. | ||
| I kind of giggled and I said, you guys don't have a lot of experience with women, do you? | ||
| And they're like... | ||
| Why? And I go, well, that stuff might work for a little while, but sooner or later, you're going to have to go to sleep. | ||
| You might wake up missing some parts you went to bed with. | ||
| I'm like, what are you talking about? | ||
| But we uncovered all that, and we got enough evidence against them that everybody was happy. | ||
| And the week of the takedown—I'm sorry. | ||
| Yeah, it would have been close to the week of the takedown. | ||
| I had to postpone it. | ||
| I'd had a lumbar fusion in 2002. | ||
| What I didn't know, I thought it was just— My disc, a bulging disc or something. | ||
| What I didn't know is that fusion had broken free. | ||
| And for about 15 years, I just had nothing. | ||
| I had no disc. | ||
| The cadaver bone dissipated. | ||
| So my back was spasming really, really bad. | ||
| Like I couldn't get out of the floor. | ||
| So I took some prednisone, got off the floor with electric stem. | ||
| We had to postpone it for a week. | ||
| So then I went, and on a Friday, I flew into Baltimore, met the case team, drove up Saturday to Delaware, trained all day with those guys, helped get more information that everybody wanted, | ||
| came back late to Baltimore, flew to Atlanta, drove up to... | ||
| Try to close the deal with the Georgia crew. | ||
| And I think I got home Monday for a couple of hours. | ||
| I went back. | ||
| Now I'm meeting with the SWAT teams because we're planning on the takedown. | ||
| And by Wednesday, I picked up Luke, who lived on the 100-acre farm. | ||
| And we did a ruse where the car, like my car, was messed up. | ||
| I'm like, did you hear that? | ||
| Actually, more divine intervention. | ||
| I was going to fake that something was wrong with my car and my truck. | ||
| We're driving. | ||
| All of a sudden, someone goes, bam! | ||
| Like that. | ||
| And I go... | ||
| I didn't run over anything. | ||
| I go, did you hear that? | ||
| He said, yeah. | ||
| I said, I swear if that damn brake caliber froze again, I said, let me pull over. | ||
| Well, I pulled over to the spot SWAT team wanted me to, and then we did a ruse. | ||
| I was around the back of the truck looking, and another truck pulls up. | ||
| I'm like, oh my gosh, man, I can't believe you're here. | ||
| And then I jump in that truck, and then the SWAT team and the Bearcats rolling over the hill, and they took him without incident. | ||
| Helter Skelter and Pestilence got picked up without incident. | ||
| We kept all that quiet on Wednesday, because come Thursday morning, SWAT teams from Washington Field Office and Baltimore Field Office were going to be hitting that crew, so we wanted to keep it quiet. | ||
| So now Thursday, they get arrested. | ||
| Now stuff's starting to come out. | ||
| I'm still in a chat group, and Friday, I'm watching it, and they're like, Pell Horse, are you there? | ||
| And they're like, wait a minute, now the affidavits are starting to come out. | ||
| It says that there's a federal undercover agent that infiltrated the base. | ||
| And they're like, who's the damn fed in here? | ||
| And I'm just being quiet. | ||
| Somewhere around 515, the leader of the base, he went by the monikers Norman Spears and Roman Wolf. | ||
| His real name is Ronaldo Nazaro, so you can let this sink in. | ||
| Here's an American citizen born in America, went to Villanova, was in the Army, to my understanding, Army, Intel, and he was contracted at some point for some job in the Department of Justice. | ||
| Now resides in St. Petersburg, Russia. | ||
| I guess he supposedly teaches English. | ||
| They tried to say the base didn't have a leader. | ||
| He's definitely the leader. | ||
| Wow. And has a Russian family. | ||
| So you can do your own speculation there. | ||
| I'm not working that case anymore. | ||
| How fucking crazy. | ||
| Right? What was his red pill moment? | ||
| Because clearly, if you look at his history, he was kind of on the liberal side. | ||
| Something happened somewhere. | ||
| And then he starts spewing crazy stuff. | ||
| And then the base gets infiltrated by like... | ||
| Journalists from Vice. | ||
| Every time the base got infiltrated, they tightened their obsec more and more. | ||
| Every propaganda video we did, the rule was, it has to be better than the last one. | ||
| Because we're trying to get everybody. | ||
| And so I'm watching all this roll out. | ||
| There's no way a Fed's in here, this, that, and the other, blah, blah, blah. | ||
| And then I see Roman finally respond around like 5-ish on Friday. | ||
| And he's like, I'm not sure we could have found him. | ||
| Because he was good. | ||
| He attended every meeting, which I didn't. | ||
| He said he attended every meeting, which maybe that should have been a red flag, but I didn't attend every training or meeting. | ||
| And I'm like, okay, he's figured out it's me. | ||
| And then he said something else, and then that was it. | ||
| It says, boom, you've been removed by Roman Wolf. | ||
| So I screenshotted that, and I sent it to all the case teams all over the United States and the headquarters, FBI. | ||
| And I said, and I'm out. | ||
| Wow. Yeah, so they went down. | ||
| That was a wild case. | ||
| The effects on family and stuff. | ||
| At that point, I mean, we're talking 2020. | ||
| I started in 96 at a state and local level. | ||
| But my wife, we were dating when I was a narc. | ||
| So she was kind of used to, hey, I went out and picked up some hookers and got some cocaine stuff. | ||
| But clearly there were some very rough times, especially during that three-year period around the outlaws. | ||
| But it's not always easy. | ||
| But what she says, because people always ask, and the spouses do not get... | ||
| She's not law enforcement. | ||
| She's not desensitized to my world. | ||
| She used to freak out and be nervous when I'd go in undercovers. | ||
| And what she would do is, to help her cope, she moved furniture. | ||
| I'd come homing up in the door and trip over stuff. | ||
| I'm like, what in the... | ||
| How did the couch get... | ||
| Who moved that refrigerator? | ||
| You know, crazy stuff. | ||
| But one day, what she said is, she said, look, she just had to give it up to God. | ||
| She's like, I can sit here and worry every day, and I'm going to kill myself worrying about it, but I essentially don't have control. | ||
| I've got to pray that you're good at what you do, and if it's your time to go, he can take me any time he wants. | ||
| But finishing the base case is the first time, like an idiot, I should have realized it, but I realized after an undercover, I have to decompress. | ||
| I have to kind of, okay, all right, I get my mind, all right, that's done, okay? | ||
| So does she. | ||
| Right. And we were sitting out on the back porch having an adult beverage. | ||
| I might have been smoking a cigar. | ||
| But she said something to the effect of something. | ||
| I was at the base and she was like, yeah, I was covering you in prayer. | ||
| And I kind of giggled. | ||
| And she's like, she looks at me and I'm like, what? | ||
| I mean, we've been doing this for a while, right? | ||
| I mean, you don't have to be worried about me, worried about me. | ||
| We've been doing this a minute. | ||
| She jerked a knot in my butt, man. | ||
| She looked at me, stern, and she said, let me tell you something. | ||
| You are my husband, and I'm your wife, and it's my job to cover you. | ||
| And when you're going on these things, I'm covering you. | ||
| And I stopped smiling, and I said, I greatly appreciate that, and I'm sorry if I insulted you, but thank you. | ||
| Wow. Craziness. | ||
| What a life you've had. | ||
| Well, listen, brother, thank you very much for being here. | ||
| It was great talking to you. | ||
| Great hearing these stories. | ||
| Fucking amazing. | ||
| So insane and so interesting. | ||
| I do have a wacky one. | ||
| I forgot. | ||
| Another one? | ||
| Yeah, you want a wacky one? | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| It's a murder for hire, basically. | ||
| Oh. I got hired to do me and another task force officer who went with me on the undercover. | ||
| Essentially, they thought we were bikers, and they ended up hiring us to do four home invasions and murder two people. | ||
| So you want to talk about wacky people? | ||
| This was towards the end of my career. | ||
| Her name was Tammy. | ||
| She gets in. | ||
| It's all in the news and the court records. | ||
| We go. | ||
| And we meet the husband. | ||
| We thought the husband was the one wanting to get us. | ||
| And we were, like, off a dirt road. | ||
| It's pretty rough, man. | ||
| Like, walking up to the place, I'm like, hey, man, watch out. | ||
| Sharp Object, Sharp Object, TB, MRSA. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| You know? | ||
| So we meet him, and he's like, oh, that's really not my plan. | ||
| That's my old lady's plan. | ||
| I go, where's your old lady? | ||
| Well, she's asleep. | ||
| Are you going to wake her up? | ||
| You want me to? | ||
| I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to you if you're not planning it. | ||
| I'm here to make money. | ||
| So we pick her up. | ||
| She comes out, gets in the truck. | ||
| We start driving around looking at these locations of where they wanted it because they knew some people that were dealing dope. | ||
| They had the ends on where the guns and the money were, so they thought. | ||
| And they wanted us to do the home invasions and kill them. | ||
| But while we're riding around, she says, if you need somebody, torture her. | ||
| I'm really good in torture. | ||
| I love torture. | ||
| I'm driving. | ||
| She's in the passenger seat. | ||
| Clawing herself. | ||
| She's weathered. | ||
| Yeah, she's weathered. | ||
| Tweaking, probably. | ||
| And this is how my mind works. | ||
| So she's like, yeah, I'm into torture. | ||
| She goes, you know that you can take a hanger and bend it on the end and shove it up a man's penis and rip it back out and then pour salt in the penis. | ||
| Well, now the guys in the back of the truck are going, oh my gosh. | ||
| What she didn't know was two weeks prior to that, I had my second lumbar fusion, which fixed my first lumbar fusion. | ||
| That wasn't the problem. | ||
| They messed up my privates and they had to dry cath me. | ||
| So when she's talking about this hanger going in and out, I'm kind of feeling. | ||
| I'm like, I think I know what is similar to that. | ||
| So she says that and then she says, yeah, you can take a PVC pipe and you can run it up somebody's anus and then run barbed wire up it and rip it out. | ||
| And we pull up to a red light and I lean over and I go, why are you so angry? | ||
| And she's like, oh, no. | ||
| I said, are you sure you don't want to kill these people? | ||
| She's like, oh, no, I'm too well known. | ||
| But if you need somebody tortured, I can do it. | ||
| Then on the next ride, or riding to the next place, she says that her husband went on a cocaine bender, and she told him never to do that again. | ||
| Cocaine meth something. | ||
| She said cocaine, but he'd been gone for three days. | ||
| She couldn't find him. | ||
| He comes home after being high for three, four days, and he crashes. | ||
| She's so pissed at him. | ||
| She tells us the story that... | ||
| He's naked. | ||
| She takes a two-by-four, shoves it under his back legs, takes an industrial stapler, and staples his scrotum to the board. | ||
| He didn't wake up. | ||
| That's how down he was, or his crash was. | ||
| But when he did, he finds himself hooked to a board, and he's screaming for help. | ||
| And she wouldn't help him. | ||
| He had to call a friend to do it. | ||
| So if you think the story's BS, if you think the story's BS, we confirmed it with the husband. | ||
| He's like, oh yeah, yeah, she did it. | ||
| I ain't never had no woman do nothing like that to me before. | ||
| And I'm like... | ||
| So my buddy in the back, he goes, you really don't like men, do you? | ||
| And she's like, I've been unlucky in love. | ||
| But in my head, that's when I'm looking over and I go, these are my people. | ||
| This is my skill set. | ||
| This is what I get. | ||
| I don't get Wall Street. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Jesus Christ. | |
| So yeah, there's all kinds of stuff like that, man. | ||
| God damn. | ||
| That's a crazy life, brother. | ||
| Yep. So now it's book. | ||
| I still teach alert. | ||
| Tell everybody the book. | ||
| The book is codenamed Pale Horse. | ||
| And it's how I went undercover to expose America's Nazis. | ||
| But it's not just white supremacy. | ||
| It's got the outlaws. | ||
| It's got... | ||
| Personal stuff, the life. | ||
| There's murder-for-hire cases all in there. | ||
| The pedophile story's in there. | ||
| Public corruption cases where, I mean, some of the targets, like I got put in a corner, I underestimated. | ||
| I'm dealing with a guy who's toothless and a mountain-backwoods guy. | ||
| And he beat me at chest that night. | ||
| And I ended up with a bag of cocaine open, shoved in my face. | ||
| He's got a sawed-off shotgun, a red-boned hound's growling in my crotch. | ||
| And he's like, if I find out you're the law, you're a dead man. | ||
| Do it if you're not a cop. | ||
| I had to figure out a way to get out of that. | ||
| So there's stuff like that all in there. | ||
| I bonded with that guy, too. | ||
| That's part of your skill set, right? | ||
| And when somebody sent me his obituary, I felt sad. | ||
| Wow. This is my last line from him, and I think you'll like it. | ||
| These are some of the people you deal with. | ||
| He said, now, Scott, I'm going to speed it up because he was on pills a lot, and he drank all day and did cocaine all day. | ||
| So it was a constant battle of being pickled. | ||
| But he's like, I think he died five years before I met him. | ||
| I was pretty sure it's the dope keeping him alive. | ||
| I think he died, he just didn't know it yet. | ||
| But he would be like, now, Scott, you know I don't do cocaine anymore. | ||
| And I'd go, I know, man. | ||
| He goes, I used to do a boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore. | ||
| I say, I know. | ||
| And he'd pour a cocaine in his hand and he goes, but this right here, that's just a bump. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And I'm looking going, what? | |
| You just did cocaine. | ||
| And he said, you know, I don't sell cocaine anymore either. | ||
| And I'd say, I know, man. | ||
| He goes, I used to sell truckloads of it. | ||
| I said, I know. | ||
| I know you don't do it. | ||
| Now, but if you need them five ounces, I can get them for you for this much money. | ||
| And I'm like, I don't... | ||
| That's the kind of stuff, man. | ||
| You got to find humor in that, but yeah. | ||
| May he rest in peace. | ||
| May he rest in peace. | ||
| Well, thank you, Scott. | ||
| Thank you for everything. | ||
| That was a lot of fun. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| I really appreciate it. | ||
| I appreciate you, man. | ||
| And good luck on the book. | ||
| I guarantee it's going to sell like crazy. | ||
| One more time, Jamie. | ||
| Throw that up there so everybody can take a look at it. | ||
| There it is. | ||
| Codename Pale Horse. | ||
| It's available now. | ||
| Did you do an audiobook? | ||
| Yes, I'm sorry. | ||
| Thank you for saying that. | ||
| It's my voice. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you. | |
| Yeah, it's my voice. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| Actually, that was something I was told I needed to say. | ||
| It has to. | ||
| So, yeah. | ||
| No offense to the other peers of mine that have done books or people that have done it before me, but if I click on it and I hear, there I was in the basement. | ||
| I'm like, what in the hell? | ||
| That has to be your place. | ||
| I read the book and then we'll see what happens as far as TV and stuff like that. | ||
| Someone's going to want to do something. | ||
| I've been on, again, the tactical stuff. | ||
| I've been in armor on movie sets in Tennessee. | ||
| I actually did a cami. | ||
| In the movie world, I have one kill under my belt. | ||
| All right. | ||
| But that's it, man. | ||
| I'm just trying to pay it forward, still trying to learn, still trying to do good things. | ||
| Well, best of luck with this. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I know something good is going to come out of this because the story is incredible. | |
| Thank you very much. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you. | |
| Thanks, brother. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thanks for being here. | |
| All right. |
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