Zack Snyder reveals how 300’s $60M green-screen stage shoot and Watchmen’s rejected topless Rorschach scene shaped his filmmaking, blending comic fidelity with bold artistic choices. His 90M+ Rebel Moon Netflix debut (PG-13 and R-rated cuts) earned $160M–$1.6B in potential theatrical value, proving niche visions thrive online. Snyder’s upcoming Rebel Moon 2—a war film premiering April 19th—and Illusions adaptation reflect his defiance of studio compromises, prioritizing raw storytelling over marketability, even amid personal trauma like his daughter’s death and brother’s loss at age 13. [Automatically generated summary]
Well, first of all, I appreciate that because, you know, 300 was a complete labor of love and insane—like, you know, 300 was—I was a Frank Miller fan for a long time, right?
And I— I thought I would do another...
I thought I would do Dark Knight Returns, frankly.
That was the movie I wanted.
I still want to do it.
I always tell everyone, like, Dark Knight Returns.
If I could do Dark Knight Returns, I'd be done with comic book movies.
Really?
Well, because, like, if you've done Watchmen...
Oh, sorry, I'm banging the mic.
If you do Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, like, for me, your legacy is...
So, Batman vs.
Superman literally steals a lot of Dark Knight Returns.
I'm not going to say it didn't.
It did.
But it's still not Dark Knight Returns.
So, I think that's still out there.
But I always...
You know, for a long time, I had that...
I had 300, like, on my coffee table at my house when I was making TV commercials, you know, and I'd have my friends over.
I'd be like, I'm going to make this one day.
It's going to look exactly like this comic book.
And they'd be like, yeah, yeah.
Sure it is.
And, yeah, I was having a general meeting with Gianni Nunari, who was one of the producers, and he was asking me about what I like.
And he had...
That graphic novel in his office, like on his table.
And I went, well, okay, you know what?
If I could do anything, that book right there, I would make that.
And he goes, well, what do you mean?
How would you make it?
And I literally just opened it up and I go, we'd film this.
We'd film these pictures.
It would look like this.
And he goes, okay, that's cool.
So you're saying you would just shoot the movie and it would look like this graphic novel.
I go, that's what I'm saying.
But at the time, we couldn't sell it.
We tried.
We went around town with it.
Literally, we went to all the studios.
They were all kind of like, yeah, sword and sandals.
Because, like, you put your kid in a movie, and I always was like, oh, let's have Eli do that, because it's easier, you know?
Like, he has to, like, beat the other kid up.
Just Eli's better, because, like, I don't have to talk to, like, some, you know, other...
Because, like, actually, there's a scene to watch when you know where he bites the kid's face, and he pulls the flesh off the face, and I go, you know what?
Let's just get E to do it, because then I can just be like, okay, E, bite this!
The only troubling part of that is that there was a scene that we did in that movie where the, you know, because Rorschach's mom was a prostitute, right?
So there's that scene where Rorschach's mom, in the flashbacks, like, I should have had that abortion, right?
And she slaps him in the face, right?
Because he hears, Mom, is he hurting you?
Like, because she's having sex with some John in there.
And then she opens the door and she's like, you know...
He's like, is he hurting you?
I should have had that abortion and slapped him.
And I had wanted the mother to be topless in that scene.
And they were like, nah, you can't have...
And it's cool because his mother was visiting set that day and his mom was there and she was like, oh, you're putting our son in a movie?
We weren't together at the time, his mom and I, but we're really close friends.
But she was an actress and I said...
And they went, the only way that the woman could be topless is if it was actually his mom.
I'm like, you know, you did Mark Twight on this show, and then Mark will tell you.
You know, Mark trained the guys.
Mark's like this amazing...
He's like, I've known Mark for years, and he's an incredible alpine climber.
He's like this, he's just like this insane, he can shoot, he can fucking, he can do anything that anyone can do.
And like when I asked him to train the guys, he's like, this sounds like Hollywood bullshit, like train actors for a movie, like they're all fakers, they're all liars.
And I was like, look, you will make them honest.
And so he's like, alright.
So he started training everybody.
Yeah, there's Mark right there.
And his gym was called Jim Jones, right?
Like, just as an example of, like, how hard he is.
But yeah, and so, like, you know, he had trained all these SEALs and, you know, basically, it was basically the same thing that he was doing with the SEALs he did with these actors.
I always say the one thing about movies is that...
And the thing about Mark that I love was that he went to psychological war with the actors in the best possible way.
What he was looking for, he would always say, I'm going to put you in your pain cave and you're going to find out a lot about yourself when you're in there.
And then when you come out of the workout, you're going to grow.
I'm going to grow you here.
And some people just don't...
They don't like that.
Especially people who haven't like, you know, fitness isn't like a lifestyle that they've chosen, you know?
I think it works with actors because he makes it part of the crucible of the performance.
And I think if you can connect it to the performance, it makes the training mean something.
I was always...
I've always been like a sort of bodybuilding fan like in the 80s.
I trained with this guy in the 80s who was just like a teacher that lived, you know, this guy Jim Arden who lived in Greenwich, Connecticut where I grew up.
He was a teacher at this school called Greenwich Country Day, which was near the boarding school that I went to.
And I was like, you know, everyone expected me to be like, I played soccer.
I was like an athlete.
I was really, but then I sort of got into like weight training.
I was like, that's what I want to do.
Everyone thought I was insane.
But like, you know, and I think it was my meeting Jim and Jim being like, because Jim had this, in the basement of Grinch Country Day, there was like this weirdo Jim and like, you know, Chris Dickerson and like, you know, Mike Katz, all these like crazy 80s bodybuilders would show up and train with him and it was like this weird, I'd be like, this is awesome.
And like we went to the Olympia, like he took us to the Olympia in New York City, I don't know, what year was that, like 82 or 83, I forget what year.
I mean, I trained with Jim because I thought, okay, yeah, maybe I'll be a bodybuilder one day.
That'd be cool.
But, of course, I was also painting.
I remember when I was a senior in high school, After I graduated, I went to London for a year to art school to paint.
And I lost like 40 pounds of muscle in that year.
Just like literally, I was in like the best shape of my life, went to England to be a painter and like literally just ate baked beans on toast for a year and like starved to death.
But I was like, this is amazing.
You know, like I'm an artist, you know, but it was definitely, it definitely put a, but I always had the like, but I always had that aesthetic You know, bug in my head.
And now I have, my trainer now is this guy, Alessandro.
He trained everyone for Rebel Moon.
And he's like this, he's like, in his early 60s, Italian, was a bodybuilder, was a power lifter, became a bodybuilder.
And he's like, you know, he's just like this, he's a hard Italian, no bullshit.
Like, you know, it was cool because during the training for Rebel Moon, one of the actors was like, I have an idea for a workout.
He's like, or like the guys at the gym, like, because, you know, he used to, like, judge bodybuilding competitions, and, you know, has his pro card and everything, was like a real bodybuilder, and they'd say, like, hey, can you come and look at me?
You know, I have a contest coming up in the bathroom, and they'd go in there, and the guy'd take his shirt off, and he'd be like, how long till the competition?
Oh, he'd be like, I got two months till the competition, and all the time he'd be like, I think next year for you is gonna be better.
Wow.
He has no problem saying, I think I need to lose 40 pounds.
Alessandro was in a competition with him, Night of the Champions, I think, in San Francisco, and he said, like, He goes, I come from Italy.
I'm in my first competition.
I pull a card and I realize I'm next to Ronnie Coleman and me.
He's like, great.
This is fucking perfect.
And he goes, the guy, you know how bodybuilders, the whole thing is about your skin being super thin so everything shows.
He goes, I saw him backstage and I thought, you know what?
The skin's not there.
It's not going to happen.
He goes, but then, like, you know, he, like, so much muscle, he, like, pulls, and he's just like, he's like, oh my god, like, where, how is it possible that the skin just can't, the muscle's so thick, it just, like, pushes all the- It stretches all the skin out.
You see all the striations and everything that you do.
With him just relaxing, like, backstage, he thought, ah.
I'm more ripped than him, but then he's like, no way.
He's really suffered, unfortunately, Ronnie, but I think he suffered from surgery.
I think the surgery got him.
You know, there's so many guys who get back surgery, and back then, stem cells weren't available, and people weren't aware that there's other ways to fix your back.
The doctors just want to go in there and start fusing discs, and it scares the shit out of me.
Everybody that I know that's had that done has had real problems afterwards.
It puts extra pressure on the above and below discs as well, because it's an unnatural sort of unit now.
I just worked through pain and also when you're doing jujitsu, you're always in pain.
So I was just like just work through the pain, but then I started developing some like real chronic problems and it wasn't until I started doing stem cells and then starting to understand like You can, but it's not wise to just go and only do jujitsu.
Really, you should be doing maintenance weightlifting that's designed to strengthen your joints.
And so I really started doing that, and that made a giant difference too.
And instead of just thinking of it as a workout, it's always like, okay, is your car ready to get on the track?
It was also the movie was brutally representative of both.
It was both like mythical and beautiful and magical, but also very tied into the ethics of the Spartans and how absolutely brutal their world was and how they just accepted things.
I love that Fassbender when he's looking down and he says that whole thing about, you know what's awesome is that with all the world's armies, there's got to be one guy down that fucking place that can kill me.
And do it right, you know?
And they're like, are you serious?
Like, that's what's turning you on?
You're excited about the fact that the guy that kills me might be down there?
But it's also, I think, when we look at things like that and we put ourselves in the mindset of someone who lived so many years ago like that, there's this understanding that human beings are capable of fitting into a bunch of different bizarre groups.
A bunch of different strange cultures can rise.
And when you have a particularly barbaric time in history, and you have this group of people in Athens that are literally changing the world through democracy and through the Eleusinian mysteries and all the shit that they were doing.
People are traveling from all over the globe to come to this one spot.
And then you got these fucking savages.
These people are the savages of savages.
The Spartans.
Yeah.
If you think about it, if someone says, like, what kind of a warrior would you want to be?
And to imagine that there was a group of people that existed, a culture that existed that was completely warlike and had these tenants that were just unbendable.
Yeah, the Kryptaea, like, you know, that whole thing, like, where they would send you, like, around seven, you'd go, in the Agogi, you'd go, like, into the wilderness, and you're basically living among other kids that were between, like, seven and thirteen, and you just were, like, wild.
And the...
The sort of elite of those groups were called the Kryptaea, and the Kryptaea would come down and just kill helots whenever they wanted.
They were encouraged.
The helots were the slave class that maintained Spartan society.
And these guys, these kids, imagine if you lived in the hills, you knew there was just this 13-year-old gang of 13-year-olds that were going to just come down and murder you at any moment.
And they were encouraged to do it.
And also, the Helots were fine.
If the Helots killed them, that was fine.
Because that meant they weren't good enough anyway.
And then they did this ritual with this table of cheese where all these Spartan warriors would stand around the table and all the 13-year-olds who were ready to transition into becoming true Spartans, you'd have to try and get and pull a piece of cheese off this stone table.
And the Spartan warriors who guarded the table could do anything to stop you.
And it was just beating the crap out of these 13-year-olds.
And finally, if you got it, then you were given to a Spartan soldier who raised you.
And basically, the idea was that he was your lover, he was your teacher, he was everything to you.
Because the Spartans believed that, really, they believed that you...
You would die for your brother if you were also lovers.
You know, they thought that, like, if you were confused about why we're fighting, fight for that guy, who's not only your best buddy, but, like, there's, like, a story, I guess, where they were, like, when the Persians first came, they sent a scout over, and they looked down at the Spartans right the night before the big battle, and he goes—he went back, and he goes, they were all, like, having sex with each other.
It was, like, a weird— They're like, we're going to be good.
And there was this...
One of the Spartan kings was...
The old Spartan king was now working with the Persians and said like, oh no, we're fucked.
By the way, in the end, the Spartans had a real problem because they couldn't...
There's this really crazy thing where on their wedding night, they would have to shave the head of your bride and dress her like a man, and she would fight you because there was no...
There's a part where Sophia's character says that they basically say they encouraged me to find a lover in the military academy because when the politics of war became too abstract, like, okay, take that beach or climb that mountain...
A lot of times, you know, soldiers are like, why?
Like, there's no why.
But if you have a lover who's next to you, who's your life, and if they get killed or they're in danger, you're going to be back on it.
It's an interesting, we don't, of course, in our modern society, we don't play with that aspect of, you know, in war, we try not to anyway, we seem not to, you know, like with using the relationship to create a bond.
I mean, there's camaraderie, brotherhood, of course.
I think we could fuck up and nuke each other, but it's probably not going to happen because people have been really good about it since 1947. Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's funny because like the movies, for instance, one of the things is I always archive a film print of all my movies because the digital storage of movies, if you ask anybody, even in the business, they don't know.
Whether in 10 years you'll be able to play a movie that you have now, like whether you physically or how it degrades, all those things, they don't know.
That's crazy.
And so I'm like, that's why I make film prints, because I'm like, I know that we keep the film prints in the...
In this, you know, locker, and you can at least pry them out and always have it.
But, like, I just think it's crazy that we don't know whether the movies will exist.
That's what I'm saying is that, like, you can, the little, that, that, those little pieces of information they tell you about, like, oh, you know, like, whatever, I'm taking this, or like, I thought about this, and I experimented with that, and you're like, oh, okay, like, Thanks for being out there.
Thanks for being the oxygen mask up on the stratosphere.
He played rugby, but rugby destroyed his knee, fucked his body up, which kept him from ultimately competing.
Just a crazy mad genius that doesn't give a fuck about anything but fighting.
So all he's doing is like teaching people how to strangle people during the day and then watching tape and reviewing techniques and creating the next workout schedule.
And they work out 365 days a year.
365 days a year.
And his number one student is Gordon Ryan, who's widely considered to be the greatest jiu-jitsu athlete of all time without question.
That's his belt up there, the Abu Dhabi belt, when he won Abu Dhabi, but he's his number one student, and they just train 365 days a year.
Yeah, it's like you were saying, like, yeah, like, you understand, like, at that point, you're in a rhythm, you understand your body, you know, like, okay, I'm hurt today, I know how to do this, but we're always learning, we're not gonna stop learning, we're not gonna stop understanding.
That's the one thing that's crazy about YouTube, too, is that this idea that there's a resource, you know, like it used to be to find a technique or to learn something, you have to go to the guy's house, fucking sleep on his porch, he's not gonna fucking train you, he's gonna slap you around, like, whatever.
We're now like these kids today, they get like a lot of their shit, the basic shit, they're like, I'm learning this.
Yeah, and she, I sent it out because at the time Formula One was wanting me to, we were going to do a film, I was going to do like a commercial for them, you know, and I was in the middle of pitching them and they were like, oh, can we send you down to Austin to the race?
And I said, you know, I can't because I'm in the middle of this thing, but you can send my daughter.
And Willa was like, she had like pit access, she was like losing her mind, she's calling me every five minutes going like, are you insane?
Look at, there's like, you know, Hamilton, I can't believe you're right there!
They want to get connected to that person and root for them and feel the journey, especially The Ultimate Fighter was such a brilliant idea because you get these guys to live in a house together and then they're going to beat the fuck out of each other.
And they know they're going to have to fight.
So there's all this psychological warfare going on.
There's like chest puffing and there's so much weird shit happening.
When I got out of college, I did like 10 years of TV commercials.
And every day, I've done all the brands.
I've done a bunch of Super Bowl spots.
I did the Clydesdale 9-11 tribute spot.
There's a lot of all these kind of, for me, that were all these kind of touchstones.
But along the way, I did like, you know, PGA, I did Titleist, I did like all these like, you know, I have a tour bag, like in storage that says like Zack Daddy Snyder on it, like on my tour bag, yeah.
But like the guys, like you see these like, I mean, they are, like, Phil Mickelson is like an insane, like, he does this trick where you stand with your hands like this, you know?
And then he's behind you with his pitching wedge, and he takes a full swing and cuts it.
If he skulls it, it's going to crack you in the back of the skull, but it goes over your head and lands in your hands, right?
I think it was with David Robinson for the PGA Tour and he was sick.
He had like a hundred degree temperature.
And like what it was, was basically we did these, these guys are good.
It was, was the name of the campaign.
And it was like all these football players and like golf would be, it was, it was a ludicrous idea, but golf would be in these scenarios.
And this was basketball.
It was like one second left, you know, up Phil Mickelson comes in to play this basketball game.
They're going to play with a golf ball.
And they throw him the ball.
The ref throws the golf ball to him.
And he's, he, Catches the ball on the blade of his pitching wedge, traps it on the ground, and then picks it off the gym floor, and the ball flies up, and then David Robinson dunks it.
That was the commercial.
So he's sick and he's like, Zach, I don't know, man.
Oh, also we did a version of it where we had made the floor about a balsa wood so he could take a divot.
I did a spot with John Daly, too, and he comes out.
And I guess the The tournament before the one we had done, before the shoot that we did, we were doing it in Kaminsky Park in Chicago, right?
And he was, the idea on that one was like, you know, top of the ninth, two outs, down by three, bases loaded, whatever, whatever, you know, and pitcher...
Here comes John Daly, right?
And so what we did was, so the idea was like we had this like minor league pitcher was supposed to throw a pitch and he's, you know, we did it with visual effects.
He takes the ball out of the air.
So what we did was we got this super long tee, right?
And we put the ball on it.
And I was like, John, do you think you can...
Can you hit a drive with a two-foot tee?
That sounds crazy.
He's like, no problem.
But when he came out, he was mad because he had picked up his ball.
He got fined by the PGA. If you pick up your ball halfway through the tournament, you can't just leave.
They don't like that.
And I guess he was having a bad round.
And so he just said, fuck it.
And he just picked up his ball and walked off.
And they were like, so they fined him.
And he was super mad that he got fined.
And so he goes, I'm going to fuck up that Jumbotron.
And I was like, John, I go, that's me.
I'll have to pay for it.
It's not the PGA. And then he was like, oh man, I'm so sorry.
Like, okay, I won't hit it.
I didn't know.
Like I thought, you know, he's like the sweetest guy.
And then he just like...
He just cranks this...
He's like our Babe Ruth.
He literally...
I've done a bunch of spots with him.
You know like on his backswing, the club head is pointing down at the ground because he's so twisted.
And then he just uncoils.
And it's just unbelievable the amount of power that the guy...
And he hits the ball out of the stadium...
And it goes literally, we had PAs in the parking lot.
And they're like, the ball just goes over their heads and like into the freeway.
It was fun, actually, that time in my life traveling around and doing all those TV commercials all over the world.
I had a crew of guys.
It was me and my boys, and we would just literally...
One job, Papua New Guinea.
One job, Germany.
One job, Mexico.
One job, Iceland.
We were just on the road, completely out of our minds.
Whatever product, we'd be like, okay, I'd be pitching.
The guys would be like, what are we doing next?
I'm like, I've got to get on a call.
I have an agency, and I'd get on the call in the hotel room, and I'd pitch them, and I'd be out of my mind.
I don't know what I'm saying.
I'd come out, and they'd be like, how'd it go?
I think I got it.
And they were like, did you nail it?
And I was like, yeah!
I told them it's going to be like low angles and slow motion and it's fucking cool.
And they were like, okay, cool, let's go.
And it was just this, we were just in this machine.
And frankly, I learned everything.
Like I spent 10 years, you know, like that 10,000 hours thing?
It literally, I spent 10 years with every production problem.
Because I was a director of photography.
I was a DP and the director.
And, you know, we were a pretty small show, you know, but we had giant clients, anything you can think of.
So then when I went to make a movie, it wasn't like there was no thing I hadn't seen, you know?
It wasn't like I stepped on a set, like, oh, I'm a first-time director.
Everyone's like, oh, this guy's a first-time director.
Like, what's his, you know, what's he going to say?
And I'd be like, there was like...
The tools were my tools, you know what I mean?
Like, I was very comfortable with the tool set that I had in front of me, like more so than I probably should have been.
You know, I remember Matt Leonetti, who was the DP of Dawn of the Dead, that was my first movie, was like, halfway through the thing, he's like, You know, you know what you're doing.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, you know what you're doing.
Like, he goes, they can't fire you now.
Because, like, we were halfway through.
Because, like, I was so diligent.
Like, on my first movie, I was so scared.
You know, Scott Stuber, who was the executive at Netflix, who was my executive on Army of the Dead, he was the one that hired me to do Dawn.
I wanted to be so conscientious and I was so scared of going over budget and not nailing it and making sure it was cool and all that.
Matt Leonetti at one point was like, look man, you gotta just...
Fuck it.
Make it cool now.
Don't give a fuck.
Just do what you think.
And it was such great advice because I think the movie's edge and all the coolness in the movie and the man comes around and all the weirdness, the whole montage with the Richard Cheese song in the middle, that was all just me going, all right, good.
Thanks, Matt.
I'm going to just go.
And he goes, good.
Because otherwise, he goes, you're just going to make a movie that this zombie movie is going to disappear.
For me, it was like, how do you make a B-movie That's self-aware that it's a B-movie, right?
And in that self-awareness, it lets you off the hook to enjoy it.
Because you can still be smart, like you deconstructed the genre.
Because I've always been fascinated with genre and the deconstruction of genre.
I'm a genre filmmaker.
I always say to everybody, people are like, I'm a genre filmmaker.
And that is to say that in genre, though, you can explore philosophy, you can explore mythology, especially, which is like, myth is my main...
We make myth.
Modern myth.
Movies are modern myth.
Superhero movies are modern myth.
Is it not the same when you say...
Like, we have Superman, right?
And Batman or whatever.
Are they not...
The mythic answer to a lot of modern questions about how we should live.
You say, Superman, is he not an invention, a 20th century invention that says to us all the fucking shit that we run up against, whether it be war or class struggle or whether it be interrelationships between different countries.
Does Superman not appear in answer to us primitive brains trying to figure out where we are?
Like, you make a guy like Superman so he can answer some of those questions.
He can represent a point of view that is not helpless in the face of the insanity that is like, you know, the problems of the 20th century.
And I think Batman, in the same way, he's an answer to, like, urban...
What is urban...
The urban jungle needs a myth, you know?
Just like the ancient jungle needed a myth or the ancient...
You know, those all...
Like, in those days, we'd say, like, why is the volcano erupting, right?
But now we say...
Because we didn't know, you know?
We're just like, I guess it's the gods are mad, you know?
Now the problem is, why do I feel helpless in the face of technology or whatever?
So we need an additional answer.
And I feel like genre has allowed me to make those comments.
And I think...
The funny thing about, you know, what I always find interesting, you know, the thing that I always find fascinating about sort of the movies I've made and how they've landed on pop culture is that, like, I remember, like, in the last article, it was, like, it said, Zack Snyder, love him or hate him, right?
And I'm like, hate him?
Like, what?
I don't understand.
Like, what?
It's just, it's a movie, you know?
Like, it's not...
I mean, you look at Rebel Moon, you're like, okay, well, there's not a lot...
It's these people that are film snobs that get, you know, very pretentious about certain aspects of movie making and decide that their way is the only way.
Like, listen, I like the Barbie movie, okay?
I found it enjoyable.
I went with my daughters and I had a good mindset.
I said, let me just enjoy this movie.
Just not be like, what the fuck is this?
Men didn't fuck this.
I just said, this is a fun movie.
It didn't offend me.
I laughed a bunch of times.
I thought it was fun.
And I went online and saw so many people angry about that fucking movie.
Well, I mean, and, you know, there's this huge, like, there's, so in Dark Knight Returns, there's a scene where, and I copied it kind of in Batman v Superman, where he grabs the M60, he busts through the wall, and he grabs the M60, and he's like, the guy's like...
In the comic book, he's got this kid.
The mutant has this kid with a gun to his head.
And he's like, I'll kill him.
I swear I'll do it.
And Batman says, I believe you.
And he shoots him straight in the head.
Because it's like a no-win scenario.
It's like the Kobayashi Maru of...
You know the Kobayashi Maru is that...
In Star Trek, it's that...
Test, they put Kirk through, where there's a no-win, right?
Because they want to see how you'll react.
So they say, okay, we're going to make a scenario, a test scenario, where you don't win, where there's no way to win.
And in that situation, we find out what you would do in a no-win situation.
If you're going to be the commander of this spaceship, you're going to be in situations where it's life or death, and especially when there's no tricking it, right?
There's no tricking death in this case.
And the famous thing with Captain Kirk is he went and hacked the machine and made it so there was a solution.
And so that was his response to the no-win situation, was create a scenario where he wins.
Which is a cool character, you know, that's a cool character move.
But that's kind of how I felt.
That's what they would say, don't do that to Batman.
Don't put him in a no-win situation.
Because we don't want to see him lose.
Like, we can't see him lose.
He has to maintain this godlike status.
And that's what the cool thing about Frank Miller, Frank Miller said, fuck it, I'm gonna like, I wanna see who this guy, like if a guy, so you're saying to me that I've got a gun to this kid's head, you're Batman, I'm gonna, there's no move, there's no trick, there's no throwing the batarang, there's no dust ball to distract me, like I've just gotta pull the trigger and I kill this kid.
So you're saying in that scenario, what's Batman supposed to do?
So I'm just like, that's where Frank Deacon takes Batman and just tears him in half.
And you've got to now come out the other side of that.
And Batman is still the hero.
Batman's still...
Does the right thing.
He maintains his code.
He doesn't change, but our perception of him changes.
And I think that's like a...
And I have run afoul of...
But a lot of the fandom who have...
I feel like who have gotten to the same place I have with the characters where they need to test them.
And I feel like the characters...
It's been my experience that the characters have not let us down.
These myths have not let us down.
You put them to the ragged edge into that scenario and they come out the other side and you're like, fuck yeah, there's a reason why Superman is Superman.
You know what I mean?
He can handle it.
He can fucking take it because he's so iconic.
You see the red ass, you go anywhere in the world With that Superman t-shirt on anywhere.
But I think that is the thing, I mean, not to that extent, but that's the thing that Frank does.
And that's the reason why I wanted Affleck, because to me, Batman's a big dude, right?
Affleck's 6'4", you know?
He's like a...
Legit big dude and you know like in the shoes the shoes the boots are like two inches so like he's literally almost like you know 6'6 in the in the costume like when he comes out in the costume with that little bit of I mean we put some muscle on him and then there's a muscle suit under the suit and he's like it's a he's like Legitimately a scary looking thing,
you know, he's just like standing there and you're like holy shit Dude, the chin is so insane in that cowl.
Like, in Dark Knight Returns and in Frank's comics and, like, you know, in the classics, he's a pretty big dude.
You know, he's always been...
In Dark Knight Returns, if you look at Dark Knight Returns, there's a line where he's trying to hold someone's gun and his finger can't get in the trigger guard because he's so big.
I like things like that.
He has this genetic gift of just being this big fucking dude.
And other than that, his parents were murdered in front of him.
And he's also a billionaire.
That weird...
You want it to not be just one of those things, right?
It needs to be all of them in order for him to really...
But if somebody really wanted to fuck around with the genre today, if he had all that money, wouldn't he invest in some wild genetic engineering that turns him into an actual superhero?
Well, it's funny because I did that scene, like there's that scene, I don't think it's in the, it might be in the theatrical, but it's definitely in the director's cut, where he wakes up and there's some chick in the bed with him from the night before.
Because I always say, Batman fucks to forget, for sure.
Batman's a drunk, for sure.
Because he has huge trauma.
Right?
And I think that, you know, you wonder why he's a Playboy because like, you know, like anybody, like that's a common, you know, fucking forget is a common, that's a real thing.
That's a way to deal with trauma.
You know, and I think that like, there's that bit, he like wakes up and there's like just painkillers on his bedside table and he just like pops them and drinks some wine.
I'm just like, you know, to me that's like, that's like, that's Batman.
He's got a Mapplethorpe above the bed, he's got his glass house, and he has an aesthetic that's clean, but that's all he does.
The thing about Batman, the modern versions of Batman, the Miller Batman, your Batmans, what's interesting is that now superheroes are these flawed, very distressed characters.
Well, because, you know, frankly, the comic book doesn't exist.
For me, that's why there wasn't.
I just was like, the thing that's awesome about also that, it's one of those things like when you start to really, you know, look at like Night Owl not being able to get it up.
Because he's not in his costume.
That's just a cool...
To me, that's just like a...
That's like pure...
That's boiling down superhero to its fucking purest thing.
I don't get turned on unless I like...
I gotta go out, fucking save some people, do some crime fighting, and now I'm fucking ready to go.
That to me was like...
That was like...
That, as a superhero movie, as a concept, took a long time to land with the boys or these other kind of superheroes where now it's cool to deconstruct superheroes.
It's kind of fun.
Everyone's having a good time with it.
And I was doing it, whatever, almost 15 years ago.
And I just don't think superheroes were as deep in the culture as they are now where all those things would land.
All that deconstructive...
Kind of work that we were doing at the time was really in reference to comic books, not comic book movies.
Because Watchmen was written, you know, in response to the comic book industry.
Not necessarily...
Comic book movies didn't exist when the book was written.
Well, that was the thing that people figured out along the way with graphic novels as well, was that comic books aren't just a thing that children like.
You know, I was a giant comic book fanatic when I was a kid, and I wanted to be a comic book illustrator.
Basically what happened was my mom, I had bought, I was like 13 or whatever, maybe 12 even, I bought a copy of Heavy Metal, whoever sold it to me, because you know it says Adult Illustrated Fantasy Magazine, right underneath, like in kind of small letters, but it's there.
I would cover it with my thumb when my mom was around.
But she, one Christmas, got me a subscription to Heavy Metal.
And when you see the R-rated version of Rebel Moon when it comes out...
Because basically the deal I made with Netflix was...
They said...
I wrote this script, and I said, this is the script I want to make.
And they said, that is insane.
And I said, yeah, but it's like heavy metal, but in live action.
And they were like, yeah.
Is there any way it could be PG-13?
And I was like, well, if it's PG-13, it kind of misses the whole point a little bit.
But I can imagine that for a mass audience and for viewership, That seems like the smart way to go.
I go, what about this?
What if we make, if I make, take this script, I make you a PG-13 version that you can just blast into the world and hopefully as many people see it as possible.
And then you let me, as a bonus, you just let me make this version exactly as I think.
And they were like, okay, that sounds cool.
So coming at the end of the summer, you'll see my two three-hour versions of Rebel Moon that are like hard, R-rated, the hardest...
Director's cuts, you know, which is a thing now I'm weirdly famous for.
The director's cuts were always an answer to a thing that the studio made me do, right?
Like, here's my movie.
They're like, yeah, we really want you to cut these parts out because they're not cool.
They're like, the movie's too long or the movie's too violent or whatever.
And I would be like, wow, really?
Because I really think that's kind of the why of the movie.
And they'd be like, no, it's really important.
Focus groups told us that they don't like that.
So take it out.
So I'd take it out.
But then I'd go like, you know, I'd go over to home video right across the street.
And I'd be like, hey, guys, you want another movie to release?
Because I got the shit.
And they'd be like, absolutely, whatever you say.
Because, you know, at that time...
second kick at the can in home video.
Right?
So they would be like, that's so cool.
We get a whole other movie to market that like never before seen footage.
You know, it just feels like a cool thing.
And so, that was how I've always done my directors because always as a response to what the studio was telling me couldn't be in the movie.
Because I never planned I would always go into it bright-eyed, like, oh, everyone's going to love this.
The studio, when you see my cut, you're going to think it's amazing.
And they would look at it and go like, bro, that's no.
This is too much.
And so that's where my director's cuts, just as a practice, were born.
It was born out of that me needing to show the world what I intended originally.
By the time, now that I've got to Netflix with this Rebel Moon movie, And my sort of...
The mythology around my director's cuts was kind of a thing, especially with Justice League, as you can imagine.
They were like, you know what?
Why don't we do a director's cut as part of the process rather than as a response to it?
And I was like, that's really smart.
Like, that's really cool because in a lot of ways, I totally get the economics of making a PG-13 version of this insane genre film.
Because what I'm asking, you know, from a budgetary standpoint is high for like a boutique-y space movie that's like, you know, a heavy metal comic, you know, that's like a, people who love that will love it more than anything else, right?
If I can land that, they'll think it's the coolest thing ever.
But like for a mass audience, it might not be exactly what you would imagine.
So I'm like, I can do both.
And that's kind of where I... And that's why when you see the R-rated version of Rebel Moon, you're like, fuck, this is heavy metal.
I come to life is really what it is.
And that's kind of what I really wanted to do.
That was the thesis of my whole, like, me being turned on by the sci-fi.
Because, like, the thing you can do...
I feel like the thing that you can do with that format was you could really deconstruct sci-fi.
Like, we always talk about, like, I said this at the director's guild, like, when Luke Skywalker walks into the cantina and, like, is confronted by Walrus Man, like, is that sexual?
Like, is that...
Is he, like, he's fucking with Luke.
Luke's like some farm boy in this bar, in this rough bar.
The feeling of doing something is so much better than the feeling that you have to carry for hours of fucking off when you knew you were supposed to do something.
And, like, you know, I'd gone to school for fine art, so I was always drawing shots.
It's also a thing, like, in film school or when you're trying to think of something, movies take so much resource, right?
You need, like...
To make a movie, you're like basically an architect and you have to convince someone to build a building, right?
And it's so much work to convince people to invest, to get all the cranes and the steel.
It's like impossible.
So drawing is like...
A little taste of it.
These are the shots I want to make.
In a weird way, it's drawing that beautiful sketch of the building.
In a lot of ways, that's what it's going to be.
You can get a feeling for it.
I think that's what it does for me.
It satisfies the impossible group activity that's going to require me to Maybe that's why I love Fountainhead.
It's that process of getting people to believe in this thing that it's going to take resources and so much crew and building and designing and all that other work that's down the road.
It's the drawing that I think is a little bit of a...
I remember shooting that exactly as if it was yesterday.
We had this air cannon.
We had to fire at that guy with the mop.
Because when he gets hit with it, he was overacting.
I think we did three takes.
I was like, guys.
The first time he flew on the ground, I was like, okay, it's too much.
It's good fun.
Yeah, that's really cool.
It's interesting because like, you know, I think one of the things that we, after Justice League, I think one of the things that we really, as a group, as a family anyway, you know, because I lost my daughter over that.
You know, at the post side of Justice League, I lost my daughter to suicide.
And, you know, I left the movie famously, and then the movie went on, and then later we were able to, like, you know, finish the movie sort of in the way that we had always hoped.
And I think the thing is that, like, the thing that I kind of sort of come back to when I look at that and when I look at the movies is, like, you know, we...
They're these markers, you know, the movies are really these markers of time that we...
Even though they sort of transcend time, weirdly, you know, they exist beyond the time they were recorded.
You know, these weird...
Like, they're in the computer as sort of these singular, like, little...
You press it, but then it runs, and it's real, and it's time.
And it takes time to enjoy it, and time to, like...
You can't just say it.
You have to watch it and feel it again, you know?
It's like a cool...
It's a weird thing in that way.
And I think that, like, it just...
And the thing that you hope is that in the end, you know, the markers meant something to people, you know?
And I think that that's...
We've really fought around...
Because a lot of these...
Mental health has been a big thing for my wife and I, you know, since losing my daughter.
And we've always tried.
We've tried the best we can to, like...
The fans have raved over a million dollars just to support AFSP, which is the Against Suicide in America Foundation.
And we've been like just it's been cool that the movies these moments have like now in retrospect have like a purpose you know and that they have like that the fans have gotten this opportunity to kind of like you know join with us and kind of like be with us to like you know Because it's a huge stigma.
Nobody wants to talk about that they're having trouble, that they're not okay.
And I think that what we've been trying to do lately, as much as we can, is say, no, it's good.
And I think that it was a, you know, we've all, it's an easy thing to kind of say that, you know, it's just stress or it's just like, you know, I'm good, I'm not depressed, I'm fine, you know.
And it's an easy thing to just try and muscle through.
Where, like, you know, I think that, you know, it's my hope anyway that, like, As a family, the movies and our connection to the fans and our connection to that cause has been really, really deep.
And just watching this actually just started me thinking about what the movies mean.
What is their legacy?
And if they can do...
On one hand, they are the moments you see, for me.
Dr. Manhattan, Leonidas, whatever it is.
But then on the other hand, there's this other narrative outside of the stories.
What I was experiencing and what made me think of it, what I was going through at that moment, On that day when we filmed it, what I was struggling with, what I was trying to deal with is real.
That's hard stuff.
That was just life being lumpy for us.
Just trying to make a movie, living in Canada, being away from the kids, just all that struggle.
And then it's cool when, you know, it's been cool for me that when the fandom and the movie, like in the case of Justice League, they lined up, you know, where these people were like, no, we're not gonna, we want, there's a movie out there that we want to see.
And it's around a struggle that we had as a family, and all of it sort of came together.
I always say like, you know, people are like, you know, the fandom was toxic or whatever.
They were like, they were so angry to get the cut that they were like...
I go, also, also, they literally, people's lives were saved by the money that those kids raised.
Like literal, like lives...
Real, tangible lives were saved by that money.
That those kids that you called, that you would say are these toxic fans, they're also responsible for the saving of lives.
And that's just real.
You have to acknowledge it because if you don't, like, you, in some ways, the legacy that they were able to create is, like, dismissed.
Well, that's just a reductionist view of things that people always like to apply to things that are controversial, especially when they're talking about your fans and saying something like they're toxic.
That's such a dismissive thing.
No, there's going to be some elements of any passionate, rabid fans that are going to be toxic because it means so much to them.
And that's what you have to understand.
The reason why they're behaving the way they're behaving, the reason why they're screaming is, first of all, they don't think they're being heard.
And second of all, it means everything to them.
These people that are like deeply invested in your films and in particular like things that have like this sort of iconic history like the Watchmen or like Batman.
I mean these are very important things to people.
It's like the same way people are fanatical about sports teams, the same way they're fanatical about, you know, music.
But when you have these ideas and you have all this work and then it comes together, I mean, that's got to be insanely satisfying to watching a scene like that.
I guess for me, the process of putting it together and then when you...
When it literally lands and it's what you drew and it's what you thought and the music and everything, like, lands, it really, it is, there is a, like, I mean, I'm sure it's like anything, it's probably like the same thing, like, doing stand-up or whatever, like, when you...
When you're in the groove with it, and it's just happening, you're kind of surfing it, and you're like, God, this is the feeling right here.
You can't acknowledge it in the moment, but you can feel it.
It can push you.
It's like a wave, and you can feel it.
That's how it is.
For me, it's such a long process.
It's not instant gratification.
It's like you really have to have a head-down mentality to get it to that position.
You know, but I do, when I watch it that first time, and it comes back, and I'm like, yeah, that's like fucking, that's what we, that's the why of it right there, you know?
And I think that that keeps me going, frankly, you know, that little high is really, it's really fun.
When you think about it in those terms, that you give the audience an alternative.
Like you give them a chance to like go on this, you know, like Rebel Moon's like, okay, that's new IP, right?
No one knows what the fuck that is.
What's a Rebel Moon?
Some space thing?
I guess.
Like, okay.
Well, let's watch it.
You know, it's that, the barrier for entry is so low that it allows, I think, what's cool is it allows a lot more original and weirdo stuff to exist because, you know, especially like you think about the director's cut of Rebel Moon, which will be, if it was in theaters...
A very boutique-y concept, right?
Very singular.
It's like the animated version of heavy metal.
The movie, I'm a huge fan, but not a lot of people have seen it.
Where I feel like this is a chance where when this movie is released, the amount of people that can lay eyes on it is crazy compared to what it would be if I was releasing it theatrically or whatever.
It's a three-hour movie.
Both of them are three hours.
So it's much different.
Both the PG-13s are two hours.
That was one of the things that we talked about also.
I want the movie short, PG. That's kind of the prerequisite.
Where I'm like, on the R-rated version, it's like, there's no rules.
There's no expectations, no rules, no nothing.
That experience is a completely different experience.
You can't really pitch a studio a live action heavy metal movie right now.
I don't know how to do that.
I don't know how you'd make that.
Unless you are willing to do some sort of song and dance.
which I think that as a product, like I said, I'm proud of it, and I think it works for what they've generated.
Because basically for the same price as two movies, right, they get four movies, which is pretty crazy.
Yeah.
Because the director's cuts, for the hour, additional hour, and extra stuff that we did inside of each of those movies, each of the movies is an hour longer.
What we did inside those movies with tone and with gore and sex and all that stuff, within the same framework, you're getting two entirely different movies.
It's not, like, extended version.
You know, like, that I'd be like, okay, whatever.
You know, like, oh, you did an extra, like, weird little...
Here's the thing you cut out that you thought was too long.
She's taboo among the intelligentsia because they think she's a fascist and they think the book's a piece of fascist propaganda.
That's not why I like the book.
I happen to just like it because, to me, it's a direct comment on making a movie.
A movie about an architect who won't make the buildings that everyone wants him to make and what the struggle he goes through to get the buildings made the way he wants to make them.
Of course I like that.
No movie director...
I'm sure there's plenty of movie directors that don't like Fountainhead, but I just think that it says so much.
Ayn Rand wrote Fountainhead in direct response to being noted on a script that she had written.
And she had been studying this movie about skyscrapers and they told her she kept submitting versions of the script and they kept noting her and noting her.
Until it was unrecognizable, and then she was like, this is what happens to work.
It gets noted until it disintegrates, until it disappears.
So that's one thing that I've always wanted to do, but I don't know that the world will allow that.
Let's Well, I'm a fan of letting artists like yourself do what is their vision, you know?
And I think people are often wrong about whether or not something is going to be successful commercially or whether or not it's going to resonate with a lot of other people.
Like, that's the awesome thing about movies is like, and why, you know, I'm not that worried about the AI influence over motion picture because there's obviously no formula.
No one can predict what's going to be successful or they would have gotten rid of the directors and writers a long time ago.
You know, like, it's still, there's alchemy, there's still magic.
There's still, like, an impossible, like, you know, all these elements come together and you're like, you feel something.
And you're like, what, that was cool.
Fuck, you know, and it's a thing, like, who knows, you know?
It's like, you know, anything, you know, that you see that maybe if someone described it to you, In an abstract, you'd be like, that sounds dumb.
Like, I know.
And then you sit and you watch it and you experience it moment by moment and you feel it.
Now, in retrospect, we've been talking about doing a series where I really wanted to introduce those concepts a lot more because I just feel like it's important if we go forward and do more in the 300 universe, I would want to bring that part in and let people...
Yeah, or because they, you know, there's that one line where he says, you know, philosophers and boy lovers.
But, like, I think that he's clearly being cheeky, Leonidas, because I, of course, was hyper aware at the time that the reality of Spartan culture was...
He means philosophies and boy lovers, not...
He's using that maybe as a derogatory comment, but when in reality, he's a lover of men, probably, you know?
And so, like, I just think that, like, and we talked about, like, as we go forward, I would love to, like, just kind of stress...
I said, look, 300, in some ways, is one of the gayest movies ever made.
It is incredibly male-centric, male-obsessed.
You know, like, you really feel, like, very strong male energy from the movie, even though there's a strong, you know, Gorgo's an incredibly strong female character, and we wrote her and made her.
Like, he doesn't decide to kick the person messenger into the well without getting approval from Gorgo, because, you know, he's like, I'm going to burn it down.
Is that cool?
And she's like, go do it, you know, and he's like, all right, here we go.
And you know, this is Sparta's that guy, and that's like, that was, and I just think, but I just think that like, you know, And maybe that was just me understanding, doing the research and understanding the reality of Spartan culture that I really, that energy was in there because I just felt like it was important, you know, to make sure that it was, you know, that there was this kind of visceral sexuality to the way the men actually interacted, you know, that was there.
I mean, regardless of whether you acknowledge it, it's there, you know.
Well, Illusions is a book about this guy flying his biplane around in the 1970s, and he lands in a pasture, because in the 70s, he would fly his biplane around, land in a pasture, and then sell rides for $3.
Like, for 10 minutes.
And that's how he lived, right?
He's just a gypsy pilot flying around the Midwest.
And he happens to come across this guy, who also is flying a biplane, who happens to be like a messiah.
Who happens to be like this super spiritually advanced dude who's on the run from...
He doesn't want to be the messiah.
He's like...
It's called Illusions, the Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah.
And it's about the two of them spending a summer together, just the one guy teaching him about, like...
It's a shit job, being the Messiah.
Like, don't do it.
Because you know what happens, the Messiah's in the end.
He goes, do you always have to die a violent death?
And he goes, yeah, I don't think always.
And he's like, really?
He goes, yeah, you know what, it's cool for like...
He goes, what about just a quiet little ascension, you know, just on the side?
And he's like, yeah, I don't think the universe will let that happen.
So it's a cool...
So it's this really cool...
Again, it's like this sort of, it's again like a spiritual deconstructivist messiah story.
It was like this book when I was growing up.
In a lot of ways, its religious philosophy is similar to Christian science.
So I superimposed my religious beliefs onto this book, and I felt like it kind of spoke to my doubts and my questions about my religious upbringing and what I thought for real.
So my brother passed away when I was 13. He got in a car accident, and he was this incredibly spiritual dude.
Anyone who knew my brother was like, that guy was the guy.
He was the man.
Sam Snyder was among his peer group.
In retrospect, he was into Tai Chi.
Just a super cool 70s dude.
He kind of looked like Billy Crudup.
Billy Crudup from Almost Famous.
Imagine that guy.
But just like...
The coolest guy, you know, smoking dope, just being cool as hell.
So when he passed away, I always thought, like, okay, my brother just, like, tired of this world and went looking for another one, you know?
Like, he was just, like, on a spiritual journey.
But then, like, when you see...
When you're 13 and you see, like, what that...
Event, though, does to your family, your mother and father, you know, your sister, all of their friends, like, the devastation that they feel.
And these are people that I believed, believed in the religion that I believed in.
And the pain, like, it made me really go, like, what the fuck?
Like, what's real?
Like, what are we supposed to believe?
You know, it really tested me.
And I think that Illusions, that book, in retrospect, and I won't spoiler alert, I won't tell you what happens on the last page of the book, but it kind of speaks to where I was.
And I think, so it's always resonated with me.
And I'm friends with Richard Bach.
I became friends with him.
And his wife is constantly texting me, like, when are we making Illusions?
And I was like, soon, soon.
She's like, I found the planes!
You know, so it's cool.
Like, we have the planes.
We can make it any time.
That's how we develop.
It's all these things that I have that are kind of close to me that I'm always constantly saying, what about that?