Diana Walsh Pasulka examines Vatican archives revealing Kepler’s and Copernicus’ ancient UFO-like records, including a 2,000-year-old meteorite collection and the Shroud of Turin’s inexplicable body imprint. She links pineal gland symbolism—from Sumerian Anunnaki to psychedelic-era "electric churches"—to quantum-dimensional craft, citing physicist Stephen Dick’s intelligence principle and classified Invisible College research. Bob Lazar’s claims and ARPANET’s origins hint at suppressed tech breakthroughs, while China’s space race accelerates mainstream disclosure, blending hope with security concerns as humanity grapples with transcendent realities. [Automatically generated summary]
It's a scary podcast for me because I feel like you're because I know a lot of the things that you've said and I've related to them and I've said okay this makes sense.
The experiences that are available through psychedelics, I've always wondered.
I mean the thing that has always struck me about the UFO experience, particularly the abduction experience, is that it always happens when people are asleep.
It always happens at night.
It either happens on the road when people are tired and it's late at night or it happens like, why does it have to happen at night?
The universe doesn't give a shit where the sun is in position to the planet.
That doesn't make any sense that all these UFO abduction experiences would happen only when the sun is on the other side.
That's so dumb.
It makes no sense.
It's literally, it's such an egocentric, Earth-centric perspective.
And not even Earth-centric.
Hemispherical-centric, right?
It depends on where the sun is in position to the earth.
For that to be the only time that UFOs come, I was always like, this seems like horseshit.
There's something about it that seems like horseshit.
But there's also something about it that seems real.
When you listen to Betty and Barney Hill, when they're talking, boy, that sounds like people talking about a real thing.
Boy, that sounds like a real experience.
It really does.
These people like the Whitley Strybers, these people that talk about these experiences that happen at night, we know for a fact that when you are sleeping, your brain is producing endogenous psychedelic chemicals.
We have no idea why.
We have no idea what the purpose of those things are.
We have no idea what the quantity is.
We used to think until recently, they weren't even exactly sure like where it was being produced, but now through Strassman's work, And through the work of the Cottonwood Research Foundation, the people that do those DMT studies, they know that now your brain is producing this.
And so is your brain – is it producing a chemical gateway into another dimension?
And is that why these people are experiencing these abduction – air quote, abduction experiences?
These encounters, let's say encounters, is that why they're happening at night?
Is that why they're happening while they're lying in bed?
So I'm a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina in Wilmington, and I grew up in California.
And I've always been interested in these experiences, but religion.
And also I grew up, I was going to graduate school during the dot-com boom.
So I saw how technology was changing everything.
Our schools were the first to adopt computers and that type of thing.
So what I did was I was very interested in – I was working.
Your parents, you tell them you want to study religion and they're like, why not be a doctor, right?
So I was going to college, but I kept taking courses in religion and philosophy.
And when I got out, I got a job doing technology and things like that.
And I made all right money, but I still read about religion and philosophy.
So I figured if I could get scholarships to continue, that I would.
And I kept getting scholarships, and that's how I got my PhD in religion.
In religious studies, by the way, we actually were not ministers or anything like that.
We don't advocate for any religious tradition.
We study them.
And since most people in the world are religious in some way, it's a good thing to know.
But how did I get into studying UFOs?
So I studied Christian history, and that's what I did for a long time until I was what's called a full professor.
You can't go any higher.
You're a full professor.
That's it.
I studied these things called ascent narratives.
So ascent narratives are when people levitate in the Christian tradition.
People either levitate or they see things that they call angels or demons and things like this.
And I always studied them from a historical perspective.
And I found that going through looking at these ascent narratives through the historical record at the Vatican, actually, I kept coming across aerial phenomena in the historical records from 1000 years ago, from 500 years ago, from very recently.
And I recognized that this was happening in UFO literature.
And so I started to look at abductions and UFO sightings and things like that.
And I wanted to do a cross-cultural analysis of this.
And that was in 2012. And that's how I got into this.
I just want to point out that not all abductions happen in your sleep.
A lot of abductions actually happen in daylight.
But I do agree with you that something's happening in your brain and you're perceiving something and you called it, is there some type of mental gateway?
And I think there's absolutely a mental gateway.
Does this discount that this is objective of us?
Like, you know, the question is, is this something subjective or is this something objective of us?
My opinion at this point is it's something that is objective of us.
There's something that we're accessing.
And I don't think it's within our space-time reality, to tell you the truth.
Well, see, okay, so you were talking about accessing this space.
And if I can go back to something you were talking about, and I'm going to say this.
So what I found was – and I had this experience too when I was around 13 years old.
I felt like the world was going to end.
I felt like there was going to be some kind of war.
And it was a visceral feeling.
It wasn't something that – it was something that made me depressed as a child.
And it was real.
I believed it was going to happen.
And I believed it was going to happen at any time.
Well, this – after studying religion and studying – by the way, this kind of prompted me into studying religion – And recognizing that, you know, if you look at, say, Christianity or even other religions, people had ideas that the world was going to end and extinction events have happened and things like that.
So it could very well be that information like this is coming to us, but it's out of our space time.
So to us, it seems like it's going to happen now.
Because our sense is of linear time, right?
So if we get a feeling and it's not from any of the input that we're getting, like our, you know, people telling us this is actually going to happen, the news telling us this is actually going to happen, but it's coming to us as this feeling that you and I were just talking about.
It could be coming from that space that we've just identified as, you know, people are talking about.
And yeah, I think that we're at the very beginning of doing a taxonomy or, you know, looking at this space in terms of the scientists that you just referenced and people that, you know, I think that actually people have, you know, indigenous cultures talk about this space and.
They have language about this space.
I talked about this in Encounters that, you know, religious traditions do talk about these spaces, but in secular culture, we've lost that language.
Well, it is interesting that that language exists when you're discussing things like quantum physics because that is a language of like – it's a bizarre, non-tangible, impossible to understand to the layperson when you're explaining that these things are all interacting with each other without physical contact.
Like, what do you mean?
Like, what are you saying?
Like, can you show me these things?
Are there photos of them?
No, we're just drawing.
We're writing it down on paper.
We're pretty sure we have these equations and we know what it is.
But because this is like a field of science, this is a field of study that's universally accepted, We've given them a pass to talk about crazy stuff.
But if you want to talk about crazy things in terms of encountering some sort of thing, some entity, some consciousness that exists in an alternative realm, That has access to this realm occasionally,
or perhaps that you can transcend your normal state of consciousness and access this other realm occasionally through some methods, whether it's through meditation, through psychedelic trips, through something, near-death experiences.
Something happens that perturbs the normal state of reality and you have Brief access to this transcendent experience that everyone has talked about.
All of the great prophets, all of the great saints and religious figures have talked about from the beginning of written history.
So I think that it's not just that we give those physics guys a path and girls.
Okay.
We just don't.
What they produce actually creates our world, right?
The computers we look at and the technologies we use, even the structures we live in.
And so this is what prompted me to go back into our historical record and look at the writings of Plato again.
And some of these people that you're talking about, like the great minds, right?
And I recognize that, say, Plato, who writes about his mentor, Socrates, who's, by the way, killed by Athens, the town he lives in, not the town, but the state he lives in.
And he's executed for being an atheist, by the way.
And if you look at what he's talking about, he's actually talking about this space.
He's actually talking about having a vision of something that we can't see.
And he calls it the good.
And he says it's the best thing.
He says it makes you do things that are just.
And you don't do them because they're the right thing to do.
You do them because you really want to do them.
And so to me, this is – I thought this was fascinating.
So I went back and I recognized that he was what's called a math realist.
So he believed that – and he was one of the first people – well, not just him, but people were talking about the 300s before the Common Era, so many, many, many years ago.
He's already identifying these things called platonic solids that now we can prove exist, but we weren't able to prove them.
So he was using, and he even has this language too, Joe.
He has this language.
He says that we can actually perceive these through our minds, but it's not normal intellect.
It's not your normal abstract thinking, but it's a type of thinking.
And he relates it to protocols, like physical protocols.
So when I talk about it, because I like to teach my students about this, because I honestly think that this is what progresses civilization, this kind of thing.
So I think when I did American Cosmic, which was the first book about UFOs, again, which I never thought I'd be studying, I encountered this man, Tyler, and he And he works for the Space Force and he's been working for the Space Force since the whole space shuttle program, okay?
And he's a special kind of person.
He's a mission controller but he does a lot of other things too.
But he's also a multimillionaire space rocket scientist.
I mean just so strange.
And I called him Tyler after the character in Fight Club because that's who he reminded me of.
He reminded me of that character.
In Fight Club because he had this—first of all, he has more than 44 patents, and they're all related to space.
And the Space Force has a special place for him.
Like, he's special, right?
What I found was that he was practicing these types of protocols.
I called them protocols because they reminded me of Plato and monastic traditions, the traditions of monks and things.
So he would make sure that he got sunshine.
He would make sure that he got plenty of sleep.
He would not have too much caffeine.
He exercised a lot.
He boxed, right?
So he was also a fighter.
And he tried to stay away from people.
I know it sounds weird, but that's what monks do.
They try to stay, you know, they try to like monitor their input of people because those people can actually take them off their game or something like that.
But so this guy was put into another mental state.
And during this mental state, he said that he could receive calculations.
He could receive information.
He could receive things and then he could gather a group of scientists and he wouldn't tell them where he came from because he honestly thought they were coming from these things outside of space-time, kind of like ETs or something, off-planet intelligences.
And the people who started our own Space Force believed it.
So this isn't common knowledge.
That's what I found.
It's like a lot of people aren't – they don't know this history of the American Space Force and the Russian Space Force.
Very much the same.
These people were doing these things.
And this allowed them – you see this in sports, right?
So people – I was just using this example in a class yesterday.
I saw this basketball game two or three years ago with Steph Curry.
And the way they were playing, it was almost as if there was an emergent phenomenon that was bigger than each of the people because they somehow anticipated what the other guy was going to do.
And I used to do sports, and I know that this is something that can be done.
There's a flow state, right?
And I think that this is what Plato was trying to get his group into through these protocols.
I think – I mean the guy died at 27, which when I was 27 I was a fucking moron.
I had never done anything good.
This guy had transcended the normal boundaries of what music was and had tapped into something, whatever it was.
But when you listen to Voodoo Child, to this day, I've listened to that song thousands of times, but if I'm on my way to go do something cool, And I listen to that song like loud in my car.
He tapped into something that was just out of this realm.
Inaccessible to the average person that plays a guitar.
Inaccessible to the average artist.
He hit some crazy vibration.
And I've always got that feeling when I listen to his stuff.
It's always like moved me in a very weird way where I'm just completely captivated, like immersed in the sounds, immersed in his music.
And I think probably part of the reason I felt that when I listened to his music, and I somehow put that into that picture, that drawing that I made.
And it was a beautiful experience.
And that was, you know, it sounds so strange, but that's part of the reason why I was interested in studying religion and things like that, because of that experience.
Well, the people that I know that do do it for those reasons, I'm gonna be famous, I'm gonna be this, I'm gonna be that, they never make it.
There's something about it.
They just don't.
They just don't.
Maybe some of them will become pop stars, like someone will plug them into the right songwriter and the right producer and they'll figure it out, but it'll never be transcendent.
It might be catchy, it might be okay, but it's not Hendrix.
And the wildest thing with people, what I always want to tell people about Hendrix and a lot of the particularly impactful people from the 1960s is that you have to understand how different the 60s were from the 50s.
Like, the difference between 2014 and 2024 is nil.
There's very little difference other than the ubiquitous Technology, AI, things that are much more powerful than they ever were before, the impact of social media.
But there was an impact of social media even 10 years ago, right?
There's something about the 60s that were very different than the 50s.
And I connected to psychedelic use because all of those people were doing psychedelics.
All of them.
All those transcended people.
All the Beatles.
When the Beatles, from their early days to the psychedelic days, it was a completely different band, like completely different style of music.
So, you know, it's really interesting because that wouldn't be – the 60s wouldn't be the only culture that's informed by psychedelics, right?
Or entheogens, you know, as they're called in Native American churches or, you know – But what's interesting to me, and I don't know if you have any ideas about this, is that most likely it was through the government that the drugs became available.
And then once the effects seemed to be counter to how, who knows, maybe there were just two factions of government.
One that was pro, you know, let's see what happens.
You know, let's do this experiment.
And then the other was, you know, push back and Let's change the culture through making these illegal.
But what you see now is you definitely see using these for therapeutic purposes.
When you realize what the government was involved with and what they were doing, how they were running the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic and they were administering psychedelics to people in brothels without their knowledge and observing them and what they did with Charles Manson.
It's very well detailed.
I don't know if you've read Tom O'Neill's book, Chaos.
I mean, he's so crazy that he studied this one thing for 20 years, like, and really kind of like tanked his life, you know, and then finally got the book out there.
Because it's what the facts, the absolute undeniable facts in that book, just those alone.
Forget speculation, but forget theory.
Just the facts alone are insane.
They most likely created Charles Manson, most likely gave him psychedelics, gave him LSD, taught him how to mind control influential young people or easily influenced young people and get them to do horrific things and demonize the hippie movement.
I think right now they're baffled by this thing called the internet.
I think the internet threw a giant monkey wrench in propaganda because it made people so much more resistant to bullshit.
Yes.
And then when you see things like, especially coming out of the pandemic, When you see how incompetent these people that are supposed to be leaders are and how foolhardy they are and how stupid their decisions were.
And then you just look at the undeniable transfer of wealth to the upper small area of the country that gained billions of dollars in wealth and how much it devastated small businesses.
Did you guys do this on purpose?
Like, do you know what you're doing?
Are you idiots?
Like, why are you telling us what to do?
You guys are fools.
And especially when it comes to, like, does anybody believe that Joe Biden's ever had a transcendent experience?
Does anybody believe that Joe Biden has ever met God and came back with a message for mankind?
No.
It's like everything is like bizarre, ego-driven, narrative-driven lies and propaganda and just nonsense that's supposed to make it look like they're doing the right thing always.
all the people that go along with it no matter what the evidence shows, the people that aren't like stepping back and going, wait a minute, we are being run by people that have zero feelings for the actual populace.
And all they're trying to do is feed this machine that's got them to where they are in the first place.
But then to live it, this is what I felt like happened to me.
So in 2012, after I started the study of UFOs, I recognized that the management of that That message of the UFO for the American public had been organized not just from the 1940s, but really from earlier, from the early 20th century.
And once I started to recognize, even meet the people who were responsible for managing this in a very cohesive, tight way, very specific, that's when I recognized that it was, that, you know, I felt it.
I guess that's the difference, was that before I just saw it On the sideline, you know, like we talk about it now, you and I, and it looks like we're talking about it from the sideline.
We're saying, yeah, this is really bad what they're doing and stuff.
But I was part of it.
I saw it.
I know those people.
They talked to me about it.
They talked to me about why they were doing it.
And they said, Diana, you don't want to help these people.
They will kill you if you had something that they wanted.
Like, these are not good people, is what they were saying.
So I want to take it back because a lot of this is probably hard to follow for people that aren't like well read in this.
When you say that they have been engineering or orchestrating public perception of this experience from the beginning, what's the earliest known instance of this?
Okay, so the one that is unclassified is Project Blue Book.
And that's from 1950s, 1952. But I know that and I have to explain how one knows this.
So we have documents that talk about Project Blue Book.
And that's the managed, you know, they're managing the perception, the public perception of UFOs goes back to like 47 even with Roswell and that kind of thing.
There's another, and this is what I've found, is that there's an oral tradition that is part of the communities that run this, run these programs, like the UFO programs, right?
That information is carried within people.
It's not written down.
They even have a word for not writing it down.
When they're going to have these meetings, they have this special term and everybody puts down everything.
Especially in a very disciplined and structured environment like high-level military.
Yeah.
So they have a perception.
And one of the things that you said earlier is that they think that the greater population is not good and that they will turn on you and that they're evil.
So this is in, okay, so now you have to understand this is a long time period.
So I started this in 2012. I get this shock where I'm being, you know, people are asking me to meet, you know, people from these programs and from the Space Force.
And I'm actually not meeting with them because I'm waiting.
I'm kind of thinking I've got to think this through.
It wasn't until about 2014 that I actually start to meet the people, like the affiliated people.
And they show me some things and they, you know, they asked me to go to this crash retrieval site in New Mexico.
They use that term, but they don't think it's a crash.
They think that it's – they personally – I'll tell you from a professor's standpoint, like their idea of this is that it's a donation.
They call it the donation site.
So they think that these were donated materials and they're going to get information, and they do.
And that's how Tyler was able to create a lot of the things that he created through – and he would fly these on the space shuttle, by the way, these experiments and so forth.
It was very, very fascinating to me.
I mean I think anybody would be fascinated with it to tell you the truth.
So he would have an idea that he would get through these protocols that I told you about.
So he practices these protocols.
And it would be related to something that he would then want to fly on the space shuttle because this was during the time the space shuttle was happening.
And the space shuttle had anti-gravity environments.
And he needed these environments in order to create this.
And now this is actually a whole field called biologics.
So there's a real field now where people are doing these experiments in space and creating things that we can't create here.
Like what?
Medicine, certain types of metals, kind of like ceramic metals.
He created something.
I actually wrote about this and published about it.
Totally academic paper.
So, you know, most general readers would never read it.
Researchers have capitalized on microgravity in space to accelerate drug discovery and development.
That was one of the speculations about the type of metals that were retrieved, supposedly, from these crash sites, that these, whatever these metals were, they were layered and that they could only be layered specifically the way they were done in a zero-gravity environment.
So I actually did talk to Gary before I came on your podcast because I just wanted to be sure, you know, because I don't want to represent his research incorrectly.
So I said, can you please, you know, recap it?
He always thinks I'm an idiot too.
He's like, how many times have I told you this?
So yeah, so he has parts from various of the crash sites that are clearly engineered.
Not by humans.
But he's not going to jump to the conclusion that it's extraterrestrial.
I have to tell you a little bit about how we came about this.
Now, remember, this is the first book that I wrote about this.
So I've written two books about it.
And I wasn't a believer.
So when I went there, I even wasn't a believer.
I was like, I think they're trying to give me misinfo or something's going on.
Maybe they really believe this.
Well, they both really believe this.
I know that for sure.
So we're there and we had to wear blindfolds in order to go, me and Gary.
So Tyler's taking us.
We drive to a certain place.
He says, put the blindfolds on.
We had to leave our cell phones.
We couldn't take any technology with us.
And so we go out.
It takes about an hour to get out to the site.
We're blindfolded.
We get out to the site.
We get out.
We're wearing – we were wearing – like I guess there's rattlesnakes out there.
And so we have to wear certain boots and things like that.
So we get out.
We take our blindfolds off.
And the first thing I do is I look around because it looks really familiar to me, even though I've never been out there.
And Tyler looked at me and he said, looks familiar, doesn't it?
And I said, you know, yeah.
And he said, you've seen it in the X-Files.
And I was like, what?
He goes, they had an insider on their team.
And I honestly thought, okay, this actually fits into my research that, you know, we learn everything we do about religion from media.
Like, you want to know what, you know, Moses looked like, you just watch, you know, the Ten Commandments and things like that.
Like it's not true, of course, but that's how most people learn about their religions.
And so this made me understand this is what's going on.
It's like people are believing this through this, and then I'm coming to this, and I'm going to confirm that it indeed looks like this, and it is a crash site.
It's just too weird for me, but this is what I study, so I'm going to study.
But that gets to your point.
How did we get this stuff?
So he actually did have metal detectors that were configured for specific types of metals that he had these built.
Well, this is a person who absolutely, you know, the editor, who absolutely doesn't believe in UFOs at all, but knows that I'm doing good work on a new type of religion, therefore is keeping the Oxford brand, you know, Oxford University straight and narrow.
But I convinced her.
I said, it's data, so we've got to keep it in there.
And I'm really happy I did.
I kept it in there.
I kept a lot of stuff in there that didn't make sense to me at the time.
But when I look back on it with everything that's coming out now, I'm like, okay, I'm glad I did that.
And if you have a site where they've picked up these anomalous metals that defy our understanding of metallurgy and you're calling them metamaterials, no one knows where the hell it comes from, what's the best way to confuse people?
Well, just throw a bunch of regular metal everywhere.
Like he's been a part of this retrieval site for like 40 years or so.
And he knows the people that like the original people and the story and everything like that.
So he gave us a tour of the whole place.
And we did—and we found parts, by the way, and some of the parts were so deep down into the ground, like there were rocks and things like that.
And Gary, like I'm afraid he's going to get bit by a rattlesnake, frankly.
He's putting his hand down there and, you know, spending like hours at this one place trying to get something.
He's putting his hand down there and spending like hours at this one place trying to get something.
He found some things there.
He found some things there.
And I thought if people are trying to fool us and put things down, they did a really good job because they would have had to come here like a year ago or something and put that down there.
And I thought if people are trying to fool us and put things down, they did a really good job because they would have had to come here like a year ago or something and put that down there.
So I don't – honestly, that's my personal opinion is I don't think that this was put out there for us.
They found – they did find.
We did find things.
What's interesting to me is this, is that after we found these things and we did all this kind of data collection and everything at the site, very much like anthropologists do by the way, documenting what we found, when we found it, what it looked like and things like that and putting into special containers.
Then I was like I don't want this.
I don't want any of this stuff.
And they both looked at me and laughed.
And so Tyler told us what was going to happen when we went back to the airport.
And he said once we get back to the airport, Gary said he's going to take the stuff.
Gary is going to get stopped.
Oh, Tyler can go through airports by the way.
He doesn't get – he doesn't have to go through the normal thing that I have to go through like the TSA and everything.
So he went through, I had to go through, Gary went through, and he did get stopped.
And everything happened exactly as Tyler said it would.
They were going to look through everything.
They were going to take everything apart.
Then all that was was a signal to someone in D.C. that somebody had these parts and this is who.
That's what he said.
And I don't know if the signal went to D.C., but everything else happened.
And in fact, there was a conference at Stanford like a month ago and I was at that conference.
And part of what was said was that this is information that we can't keep siloed because it's too important and we need to have the best minds on this information, this data, this material.
So during this time period, I'm doing this research and I am not going to believe that this is, but so many indicators were telling me that it was, yes, this is Diana, This is what's going on.
You know, there is something.
And so much.
And when I looked back at the Space Force, our Space Force, and also the history of that, I could see, okay, there are so many things that just don't add up here that this is probably.
And I met too many people that had been long timers in the program lately.
like seriously long timers, like their whole lives.
Live and die by this.
Live and die by it.
When they die, they die with that information.
And it's traumatizing to them and their family too.
The people that worked on Roswell that spoke about it many, many years later, they have that sort of same weight that they're carrying around with them.
Philip Corso and all those other people, when they describe the experience like many, many years later, so there's a weight to the information that they're carrying.
It's almost like they want to tell the world, but the world's not going to even believe them.
And how could they unless they experienced it?
And even though they experienced it, they're still baffled by it.
So that's what I'm saying is, like, there's a whole other level to our history.
And I already knew this anyway, being a historian of religion.
But I guess I was a patriot, right?
And I still am.
As am I. So when I learned about this, I really wanted to share the story because I felt like these people, even if they remained invisible, they should get their due.
Because these people keep us safe in ways that we just don't know.
And they're dedicating their lives and they're getting no recognition for it.
No recognition.
And so that really prompted me more than anything to write about it.
So I was working with Tyler and I was scheduled to go to the Vatican.
And it was at the Vatican where we encountered – where a lot of things happened for Tyler that I saw made him understand that this was something that had been going on historically for a very long time period.
See, we didn't just go to the Vatican.
We also went to the – well, we went to the Vatican Archive.
Which is hard to get into, but I could get into it.
And we also went to the Space Observatory Archive, which most people don't even know that the Vatican has a Space Observatory.
And how that all happened was not set up, Joe.
It was so organic.
Because it happened before I even met Tyler.
And I put off going there because I had, at the time, very young kids.
And I didn't want to leave them and go to another country.
But For, you know, three weeks or whatnot.
But I had been invited by Brother Guy Consolmagno to go to the Space Observatory because I had been studying about the space, you know, research.
And I said, does the Vatican have like a lot of space documents, you know, documents about space?
And he said, every single thing that the Vatican does, and we do, he said, comes to where I live, which is at the Space Observatory.
And we have a scholar's residence and you're welcome to stay for as long as you want.
You have full access to the Space Observatory Archive.
But original Keplers and Copernicus's and every single thing that people, scientists from 1200, 1300 on up, Thought about space and about magnetism and propulsion and things like that.
It's all there, every one of them.
And so you go in there and we had full access to it.
My experience, though, of the Vatican itself was different than the archive.
And I've actually heard you talk about the Vatican and I agree.
Like you said, I saw you talking about it and you said, you know, I'm looking around and I see all this stuff and they stole it from all these countries.
It was like all this booty, you know, the Vatican is filled with it.
That was my experience as well.
So when I went, you know, we did all the – we did the scholarship, of course, but we also – We did the touristy thing.
So, you know, we went and looked at all the museum and everything like that.
And everything I saw seemed to me to be like, you know, colonization, you know, the colonization of these people and taking their stuff and the colonization of these people and taking their stuff.
And they have it all there.
And when you're inside the Vatican, by the way, it's different than when you're outside of it because, you know, when you're outside of it, there are those guys that – the Swiss guards.
If you look at the staff that the pope carries, the staff has a pine – see if you can get a photo of the staff the pope carries.
There's a pine cone in the center of it.
The pine cone which is – it's depicted in many, many ancient pieces of art, religious art and it represents the pineal gland because it's similar in appearance to a pine cone.
So this pine cone, which also I'm sure probably represents the Fibonacci sequence, which also represents itself in the pine cone, that's the seed of the soul.
The most bizarre feeling about it is this terrifying fear while it's happening and an incredible peace when you get in there and a recognition like, oh, I know this place.
I've been here.
I'm here all the time.
I know these things.
I know these beings.
These beings, they're truth.
They're something from somewhere else.
Somewhere that's probably around us all the time, that's influencing us all the time.
I know a lot of people have had very negative experiences, like horrific experiences of demons and negative encounters.
I've had none.
I've had no negative experiences like that.
My experiences are all in these very enlightened, bizarre creatures that contact you.
And they seem to know, like, what's wrong with me, like, right away.
And they seem to, like, also work on you.
Like, there's this bizarre feeling, like, they're like, let me get in there and fix your fucking wires.
And that seems to be completely connected to that.
It's the only explanation that makes sense to me, other than an actual, you know, like, you know, Hollywood style UFO landing and then come and get you, which seems so theatrical.
I think the reality is far more bizarre than that.
I think that's one of the things that McKenna said about DMT and also about mushrooms.
Terrence McKenna said that they show you themselves in that way to comfort you Because the reality of what they are would be too much for you to handle.
And that what you're seeing, even though it's mind-blowing, it's just a tiny little piece of what it actually is.
So when I'm at the Vatican and I see this pine cone, I'm going, okay.
So there's this recognition that this connection to God, this connection to this higher experience, this higher power, it's available inside of us.
And it must have been that Plato and his school was basically – they were basically trying to make the body healthy enough for people to access through this, which is a type of mind – like he didn't call it intellectual.
He had another word for it.
They have – like Greeks, they have different words for knowledge, right?
So this was a form of the dialectic, which was a certain type of knowledge, a certain type of knowing.
It wasn't like mathematical knowing.
So this must be this type of thing, I'm thinking.
Because Plato's Republic actually went and influenced Christians in early Christianity.
So this idea seems to not be just specifically Christian, as you say.
And then he wrote—that one got—I think it got bought out by the Catholic Church.
And you can get old copies of it, but then it was just re-released a few years back.
But the—then he wrote something in the Christian myth.
I forget what it was.
Sacred Mushroom and the Christian Myth.
Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, and then there was another one he wrote that he published after that other one was bought out that you can—that's readily available.
But this guy studied the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is the oldest version of the Bible that we know of.
It's written in Aramaic.
And the Dead Sea Scrolls is a particularly meticulous transcription.
The way they had to transcribe this is very bizarre because it's written on parchment, which is animal skin.
So they had to do DNA tests on the various pieces of parchment to make sure that they came from the same piece.
Because the idea that they'd be from different cows.
So they take this parchment skin.
They're laying it out.
They do DNA tests on it to make sure it's all from the same.
And then they try to piece together what it is.
And not all of it is even available.
Jamie, chuck me that up.
Behind you to the right.
Thank you.
And his conclusion after all of this, the summary of his conclusion was the entire Christian religion was all about psychedelic experiences and fertility rituals.
And that this was what all these stories really meant.
And he even connected the word for Christ to an ancient Sumerian word which meant a mushroom covered in God's semen.
it was God having an orgasm on the earth and that these mushrooms, which if you've ever seen mushrooms appear after the rain, they come up out of nowhere.
And that these mushrooms, these people would eat them and they would experience God.
And that they wrote these things down First it was an oral tradition for who knows how long and then they wrote them down and then, you know, it gets transcribed to Greek and Latin and English and it's all...
We also lose people's gender through these translations.
So some early apostles who are women are called men in the translation from Greek to Latin.
So I'm aware of this idea and, of course, Brian's work as well.
And in my field, we have categories for, obviously, like medicine has different categories.
And that's one category, is entheogens and different types of religions.
So the early Christian church, I would say that I don't agree that all of Christian tradition is this.
I would say that there definitely is a lot of it.
But there are also other types of, you know, Christian traditions.
I mean, when I look at the Jesus movement in the first century, it, to me, looks like a philosophical school, like Plato.
And, you know, Plato did the mysteries, you know, and, but I don't know if, I think Jesus was part of an Essene movement, like the John the Baptist is Jewish.
He's out in the desert and, you know, they're practicing these water rites and they basically are, you know, they have their own community.
And he looked like he was part of – he had been baptized into this community.
So the Jews in the first century are just trying to survive because Rome is killing them and destroying – they're going to destroy their temple.
So a lot of these communities – so that's one interpretation and I'm not discounting that that's correct for those traditions.
But there are other traditions that are not – they're not – No, I'm sure.
So I think there are thousands of – well, there are thousands of Protestant denominations of – and there's Catholicism and – So we have so many different—and even Catholics don't even know what they're supposed to believe.
So some here believe this, some over here believe that.
They have the same mass that they go to, but their belief structures are different.
So that leads us to one of the most fascinating interpretations of what we're experiencing collectively when it comes to this UFO, UAP, whatever it is, phenomenon, that this is not— A thing from another planet that comes on a spaceship and lands here to show us how to do things correctly.
But that they've always been here.
And that they are the things that are being described in Ezekiel.
That they are a phenomenon that is both here and not here at the same time.
That you are literally dealing with angels and demons.
This phenomenon is connected to these ancient stories of religion.
And it's not as simple as other beings like us from somewhere else.
And when you look at these events back in that time period, you also see a common pattern that happens today.
And what is that pattern?
That pattern is that, you know, let's take St. Francis of Assisi's stigmata.
I don't know if you want to show, you know.
So if you look at his stigmata where it looks like he's being basically radiated by a UFO, that's what my students say when they go and they see this in the Louvre and such.
If you look at the primary sources for that, this happens in the 1200s.
And you look at what – yeah, so that – So here you see St. Francis, but also over here on the right you see his friend Brother Leo.
Brother Leo actually at the time is probably 15 or something like that.
So the artists actually are not getting at the primary sources.
And that's what similar things are happening today.
So the representations that we get in the media don't look at all like an abduction.
They don't look at all what people experience.
And so what I did was I went through a lot of the primary source materials for Teresa of Avila has a weird experience that looks like an abduction.
But they look beautiful too.
They're domesticated.
They're made to look a lot more happy or something like that.
And I think part of the reason for that I don't think is intentional.
I think because it's traumatic.
I think because once you recognize the people themselves are traumatized by this in both good and bad ways.
Okay?
So this experience is still happening.
To call it angels and demons is accurate except for one part.
And because there are bad things that happen.
Sometimes people get hurt.
Francis died from that wound or he died from wounds later.
That, you know, were bleeding until—so when he had this experience, until he died, which was about a year and a half later, they tried to keep it silent in his monastery because they were—they didn't know what happened to him.
And they were horrified by it, okay?
And so until he died, they didn't actually tell anybody.
So he kept it between him, Brother Leo, and probably another monk.
So there's this idea of shame almost, you know?
This is like, you know, shameful.
But also this idea that bad things happen, and that's why people say, well, you know, demonic or something like that.
And people do experience these things in different ways, and they still do.
They still do.
But what should we call it?
Should we then use the terminology of people from 100 years ago and call it angels and demons?
I don't think we should.
I think that what we have to do is we have to take case by case, look at patterns, and maybe just try to proceed with different language because some of the things are really interesting.
If you do look at, say, experiences that Catholics have, say, in the 1960s that have been videotaped, okay, so Virgin Mary experiences where the Virgin Mary appears, and she reads people's minds and she's doing these kinds of things, levitating people together.
If you put physics on that case, physicists on that case, and if you take the work of those people who are working at, I think it's the University of Washington, where they're doing MRI imaging of what people are thinking and they're able to replicate it.
So if they're looking at a Van Gogh painting, they can replicate that.
Okay, I agree with you that mushrooms are seen in Catholic churches near Guatemala, down in Mexico and things like that, in Laid.
But I would have to suggest that there might be more going on.
So I'm going to push back on your interpretation.
Although I'm not going to say that psilocybin and mushrooms aren't part of that iconography.
I would say that a lot of the iconography is going to be something about the light that emanates from people who are accessing these realms.
And I say that because there are – I've read so many reports.
And they're not – I think that if some of the monks and nuns who report being lit up, right, in their cells and things like that, if they were doing psilocybin, if they were doing mushrooms, they would have said so.
They would have written it because they write a lot.
170 peer-reviewed academic papers on the Shroud have been published in scientific and archaeological journals around the world.
Despite all the attention, there's little consensus to just how ancient this ancient linen really is or what it actually shows.
The record places the Shroud in—how do you say that?
Lyrie?
Leary?
L-I-R-E-Y? Northern France for four years until 1357, the Alpine town of Chambury from 1502 to 1578 where it was damaged by fire before being passed to the Dukes of Savoy in 1578. The Savoys moved to their capital Turin I think?
Giovanni Battista Cathedral ever since.
Consensus has been the shroud's history pre-1300 will never be established, and yet the French historian Jean-Christine Petitfils, how do you say that?
Patifille has recently published a seriously reviewed 400-page analysis of all the archaeological and scientific studies so far.
And in Italy, the peer-reviewed findings of a specialist x-ray study by a team of physicists indicate that the fabric is potentially up to 2,000 years old.
There are now six studies which challenge the idea that Turin Shroud has nothing more than a cunning piece of medieval trickery.
Could it be something more?
The cloth?
Which has been the object of mass veneration by Catholic faithful for centuries was acquired by a French knight, Geoffrey de Charney.
Who deposited in the monastery in Lire, about 130 miles east of Paris in 1353.
This is a time of unparalleled relic mongering and forgery.
And according to the American archaeologist William Mecham, the shroud was most likely arrived in Europe, along with many other relics looted from churches and monasteries during the Crusades.
Research in 2015 reported the analysis and identification of dust and pollen samples extracted by an adhesive which suggested that the shroud may have undergone a journey from the ancient Near East after the sack of Constantinople in 1204.
were it not for the poignant image of its folds, chances are it would have disappeared into the mores of other spurious relics kept in thousands of churches all over Western Europe.
Even those who reject the idea the shroud is a 2,000-year-old sepulchral cloth, he writes, are unable to explain the imprint of the body.
Adversaries of the authenticity of the shroud come up against an enigma.
That this one cannot be the work of a counterfeiter because to make such an image would have required unknown scientific knowledge in the Middle Ages.
The image is not a painting, no trace of brush strokes, no outline has been observed even under electron microscope.
We must exclude the hypothesis of a smear, the application of a base relief of wood or marble, or a metal statue heated and placed on the cloth.
It was a Catholic Church itself unwittingly sparked what would become a global obsession with the shroud in 1898 when it gave the green light to a rare public exhibition of the cloth.
Secundopia, an amateur, became the first to photograph the linen's strange sepia shadows and the high contrast created by black and white photography.
enhanced by blurry stains when Pia went to the darkroom to check his plates he was startled to see that the negatives revealed a haunting perfectly proportional facial image of a serene bearded man in the imprint of a body tortured by what appears to be flogging lacerations and puncture wounds can we see an actual image of what the yeah that's it is that the actual image Yeah.
Second Coming Project was a group of people that were, it was either a troll, they were joking around, or they were serious about it, where they wanted to obtain DNA from the Shroud of Turin and clone Jesus.
I mean, if you want to talk about something that's all-powerful, beyond comprehension, is responsible for every single thing in the cosmos, it is the universe.
That all has some sort of law that keeps it together.
She's the one who told me about it and said you should put this as a quote before my information because she talked about how they didn't want to report it because it was so weird.
And that's the whole idea of this two data set.
There are two data sets for UFO reporting.
Like, pilots will see stuff, but they won't report it.
Or they'll see stuff and they'll report stuff, but they won't.
unidentified
Here we go.
You want some more brownies?
No.
I pushed this way to 100.
That hit music even sounds outer spacey, doesn't it?
You hear that?
That whistling sound?
Yeah.
Woo!
Richard.
Yeah, it sounds like, you know, Otter Space-type music.
Woo!
Hey, Tom, is your insulation all burned off here on the front side of your window over here?
Well, when I go back and I'm in contact with him, and when I read what he's written, I can see that he was at the forefront of looking at this like AI back like 25 years ago.
He was already talking about it, saying this is AI. ET is going to be AI, and this is why.
And then kind of doing timelines and things like that.
So and also just conversations that I've had with him that are, you know, basically correspondences that indicate to me that I think he probably has some information.
They argued since the ancient Greeks, extraterrestrial life has been a theme tied to scientific cosmologies.
Including the ancient atomist, Copernican, Cartesian, and the Newtonian worldviews.
Dick argues that from an epistemological point of view, the methods of astrobiology in the 20th century are as empirical as in any historical science such as astronomy or geology.
Dick has also surveyed the field of astrobiology and critical issues in the history, philosophy, and sociology of astrobiology.
On December 4, 2013, while holding the NASA Library of Congress Chair in Astrobiology, Dick testified on astrobiology before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, arguing that SETI funding should be restored and integrated with the NASA astrobiology program.
This is the thing that he worked on like more than 20 years ago is a hypothetical idea of dicks in the field of cultural evolution outlined is 2003 paper cultural evolution the post biological universe and seti the intelligence principle describes a potential binding tendency among all intelligent societies both terrestrial and extraterrestrial and
The maintenance, improvement, and perpetuation of knowledge and intelligence is the central driving force of cultural evolution.
And that, to the extent intelligence can be improved, it will be improved.
So what has it been like for you to go from a person that before you visit this crash site you think this is all nonsense to where you are now, having written two books about it and very careful with your words and realizing how bizarre this is to now having this conversation with me in front of millions of people.
I often struggle with the concept that the human mind is incapable of grasping the truth.
That even if it was presented to us, we don't have the capability to truly incorporate it into our, not just worldview, but universe view, life view, existence view.
That it's too baffling.
We're not quite ready yet.
It's like showing Australopithecus a cell phone.
It's like, what the fuck is this?
What is this?
We're not ready for it yet.
And I really wonder with the emergence of artificial intelligence and what seems to me at least to be the inevitable not just incorporation of it into our lives, which has already happened, but incorporation into it biologically.
I feel like that is a step that we're taking that seems inevitable.
That seems there's going to be some sort of convergence, a merging of human consciousness I think artificial intelligence is the wrong term.
I don't think it's artificial at all.
I think it's a type of intelligence that's created by the human being and the human being is biologically hindered by the fact that biological evolution is so slow and technological evolution is so insanely rapid, especially if sentient artificial intelligence It becomes capable of creating its own version of artificial intelligence.
And it's not hindered by the biological limitations of the human mind.
You know, I think Elon said it best, and you talked about it in this book, that we're the biological bootloader.
I've described it before I heard that, that we're a caterpillar that's creating a cocoon to give birth to the electronic butterfly.
And that this is also what fuels not just innovation, but materialism.
Materialism is inexorably connected to innovation.
Because one of the things about materialism is everybody wants the newest, latest, greatest thing.
And status is attached to those things.
We buy new cell phones.
Like, my friend had an iPhone.
My friend's hilarious.
My friend Eddie Bravo, he had an iPhone 13. And I go, why'd you get the 13?
He goes, they gave it to me for free.
And I was like, didn't you want a 15?
He's like, doesn't it do the same thing?
I'm like, it really does.
But I wanted a 15 when it came out.
I have zero difference between my 15 and my 14. But how do you get the 15?
You know, it's like there's something connected to us that wants the latest, greatest, and we're connected to this idea of materialism.
And if you looked at the human being as an organism and you were separate from it and you said, well, what does this thing do?
But even the better things it does, like when wars to control resources, why do they want resources?
So they can make better things.
It's all about better things.
It's all about more control so that they have more access to more materials, to more better things.
And that always, if you're dealing with intelligence and you're dealing with technological evolution and technological innovation, it's going to lead to artificial life or a life, a new kind of life.
And that might be the kind of life that literally becomes a god.
If you think about it, if it continues to get, like there's, I was looking at this video that was on YouTube that was showing the stages of artificial intelligence and that there's these multiple stages, artificial and general intelligence, sentient general intelligence, and then it goes to godlike Artificial intelligence.
Well, you know, these are some of the questions that I have when I go back to looking at some of the characteristics of these, like the Virgin Mary sightings and things like that.
Like, we now have technologies that can replicate what it seems like was happening during that event, you know, in Garabandal in Spain in the 1960s.
And if that's the case, then it looks like Stephen's idea of the intelligence principle is correct when he says that there will be intelligent beings that will appear like deities to us.
But I mean, I think if you could go back again to Australopithecus and say, "Hey man, one day you're going to be wrought with anxiety because of this existential angst and you're going to be on antidepressants and living in a cubicle all day and doing..." It's progress.
I think it's this inevitable part of the process of whatever we're going through because we're not in a static state.
We're in a constant state of – Social upheaval, cultural upheaval, a change of perspectives, this constant battle to try to define things and to figure out what's appropriate and inappropriate and gaslighting people who disagree with you, which is also fascinating just to watch people do that.
It's fascinating to watch people try to put a positive spin on inherently evil things.
But again, I do have this internal struggle with this concept of good and evil that perhaps the negative aspects are there to enlighten us and to let us know that our work is not done and that we have to move forward.
Into a direction that we know is just and good and correct and loving and that this is possible within small groups of people.
It's possible with individuals and ultimately must be possible with the collective.
It just has to be managed in some way or facilitated in some way.
And that it's not guaranteed.
And that if you look at World War II and look at the Holocaust, you look at the horrific things that human beings are capable of when they're allowed to just run rampant.
You talked about the Japanese horrors during World War II, like the rape of Nanking.
So so back to the allegory of the cave in the Plato.
So he's dealing with these questions of it doesn't call it justice, but calls it injustice.
I mean, he doesn't call it evil.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is my position at this point, after doing the study of this kind of thing, is that it's the development of this this mystic state that we've been talking about that I think we need to this is how we need to counter, because we can't decide these are the rules we're going to follow.
People aren't going to follow those rules or they're going to follow those rules and cheat, right?
But if people actually engaged in the type of thing that we were talking about, the thing they love, you know, that allows, then perhaps justice emerges.
So I think, first of all, that there are a lot of different varieties of it.
But when we look at, like we were looking at the Francis of Assisi and the kind of historical things and the abductions and things like that, I think that it's been around for a long time and that these are things that are in communication with us.
So what I do in my book, both the books that I wrote about this, is I talk to people who I think represent thousands of people.
So each person in the book represents thousands, if not more, maybe many thousands of people who have had experiences and the ways in which they interpret them.
So all of the people seem to have had experiences where now what they want to do is they actually want to work for justice in different ways.
Like Jose, the veteran in my book, he's working with young people and helping them deal with being addicted to social media and things like that and helping them get through life, which is really hard right now.
And that's what he's doing.
And then you look at Dr. Whiteley, right?
So she's working in a space where she's trying to, you know, help people deal with the fact that they're seeing things that, you know, that could down planes and things like that.
And she's helping people talk about that.
She's helping people.
Each person in, you know, is somehow doing what I'm suggesting that I think is an out to this kind of structural injustice that we see.
So I think that this is a transformational thing without the drugs, is what's going on, like some kind of massive This experience that people are having and now it's getting out and people are being able to talk to each other through Reddit communities and different types of social media.
So it is – we did see religions when they begin.
They become viral at one point.
We've never seen it in an age where we have digital technology.
What do you think when they use the term donations, what do you think the purpose of that is?
If there is an object that is purposely released into our, you know, like I'm sure you're aware of cargo cults, right?
Yes.
So with cargo cults, for people that don't know, there's been some islands during World War I and World War II where planes landed there and they left and these people, they created these Yeah.
Because that's one of the things that Grush talked about and some of the other people talked about that there are biological things that have been recovered.
Well, what impressed me about what he said was that he used the term biologics.
And I actually know that term because that's the same term that Tyler was talking about when he was creating materials in anti-gravity spaces on space shuttles and such.
So I was wondering, because David Grush does get his information from people allegedly in the programs, but he's never seen these materials that I know of.
Yeah, so, I mean, I've not seen any bodies, nor have I seen intact craft, but I also have had, now remember, I don't have a clearance like he has, so I can actually talk about what people have told me.
I have had people tell me that, yes, Diana, there are intact craft.
And I don't know, but I can tell you that people that I've met who are associated with the programs tell me that he's right.
Now, I know his background, and I know all the things.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other.
But I can also say that a lot of times people with very disturbing backgrounds, you know, who could be easily discredited are given information and shown things and told things.
And, you know, he claims that there's some element, some element that exists in other places in the universe, which leads me to believe.
Well, not even to believe, but like, so here's the question.
Are some of these things from other planets?
Is that also in the equation?
Just because something is traveling interdimensionally, we do know that there are an infinite number of planets in the universe.
I mean, we have no idea how many of them are capable of supporting human-like life, or some other kind of life, or an infinite number of varieties of life.
And if that life can do what we've done, And get to some part of its progression where it's capable of creating what we're calling artificial intelligence or super advanced technology.
So it might be a bunch of different things happening all at the same time, interdimensionally, extraterrestrially, something from a distant galaxy that's figured out some new method of propulsion that's beyond our imagination that can visit and then also things that are coming here from other dimensions.
Do you, when they talk about inventions that emerged post-Roswell, that's one of the points of speculation is that we have back-engineered something and that this led to the creation of fiber optics and a lot of other technologies that seem to emerge after that time.
So this question was prominent in my mind in 2012 when I met Jacques Vallée.
So I was already aware of his work, even as a person who hadn't studied UFOs or even believed in them.
Jacques Vallée is just one of these people, right, that you come across his work and he's fascinating.
I thought it was strange that not only was he a person who was, you know, pre-engineered ARPANET, right?
He was on ARPANET, which is pre-internet.
He was creating that at the same time as being obsessed with UFOs and doing, you know, being a ufologist.
These things seemed that they had to be together, right?
There was something that, you know, what's going on here?
So, and I'm in touch with him often.
And He says a lot of things that are rather cryptic, but sometimes I ask him specifically, was what you were doing on ARPnet related to back-engineered UFO parts?
And then he'd say something like, there are many secrets in Silicon Valley.
So in the book, what I do is I uncover not just him, but Alan Hynek.
They were friends.
And they were both Rosicrucians, which is a form of, he might not like me to say this, but it's a form of mystical Christianity in a sense.
But a lot of Rosicrucians don't view their roots as Christian.
They look at it as Egyptian and But it's basically, it's an esoteric tradition and it involves meditation.
I think it most likely involves this thing that you and I have been discussing in the whole talk so far is the pineal gland thing, you know, the access point.
Because both of them believe in this kind of life, this meditating and things like that.
And so I included references.
Everything I say in my books, by the way, I pass to the person that I'm writing the chapter about.
So everything that I said about Jacques, I gave it to him beforehand and I said, are you okay with me saying this publicly?
And so it passed all the tests.
And I also talk about going to his apartment and seeing his library, which is an amazing library.
And he has stained glass from Chartres Cathedral.
And Chartres Cathedral is a special place for Rosicrucians, like a special place of presence of the sacred.
And he actually did those himself.
So he learned how to do stained glass everywhere.
From people at Chartres, by the way.
And yeah, just amazing.
And he had a lot of books on angels and fallen angels in that library.
It was almost like going into the Vatican Archive, going into this place, because these looked like first editions or clothes.
So, you know, really, really old books about this topic.
And by the way, I think people, I think this should be, I'm not sure if this is totally true, but I believe he was the inspiration for the French character in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
Okay, so people I know who do the work and are physicists, they describe this in quantum language, which I cannot replicate at all.
But this is how they're describing it.
They're saying that the – and by the way, it's really interesting that when I'm doing my research into the Catholic history and I'm looking at some of the things that we can do now technologically that it looks very – like people back then were like, this is a miracle, right?
Okay.
So what they're doing is a similar type of process or method.
So basically what they're doing is they're looking at people's descriptions and data of craft, right?
And they're then identifying the patterns and they're saying if there was a quantum field, this would make perfect sense.
So if this was occurring in a quantum field, this would make sense.
Why do you think this information is getting released?
Why do you think it's becoming a more mainstream acceptable thing to discuss?
Because to the average person that sees this, the thought I think sort of naturally goes to this idea that some sort of contact is inevitable, some sort of revelation, some sort of landing on the White House lawn type deal.
The first one is that part of the reason is because China is now in space.
So before it was us and Russia, we were the only ones, we were together actually.
So, you know, we were aligned.
Even though at many points we're enemies on Earth, in space we weren't enemies.
We were working together using each other's equipment.
So also keeping the secrets that perhaps we're seeing in space.
But now that other countries are going into space, whatever is up there will be known.
And I think part of it has to do with this phenomenon.
And so that's why it's urgent to get this message out.
That's one of my ideas.
Another, well, I have some other ideas, but that's the one that's most prominent, is because I just don't think that it's going to be a secret for very much longer.
And in fact, right now, a lot, you know, Chinese are, you know, they are going into space and they are like, you know, looking at things and So from a national security standpoint, it's important to sort of move this conversation further.