Francis Foster and Konstantin Kisin dissect modern culture’s descent into performative conflict, from Rogan’s 10-hour Escape from Tarkov binges to Twitter’s censorship under Elon Musk. They critique left-wing academic biases, Canada’s $10M podcast surveillance bill, and AI-driven job displacement, comparing it to boxing’s corruption—like Mayweather’s rise or Fury’s Usyk rematch. Foster highlights generational grooming failures (e.g., Darren) and psychedelics’ existential revelations, while Rogan links societal polarization to evolutionary aggression, questioning if open borders or vaccine passports worsen instability. They debate UAP secrecy, Fukushima’s thriving wildlife, and gender politics—like UK’s Rosie Duffield resisting harmful policies—before praising Trigonometry’s unfiltered growth despite demonetization. [Automatically generated summary]
Compared to those games like there's no way there's no way it's as exciting as playing like quake 3 arena online without like a 30-inch monitor and you're sitting right in front of it and you're got fucking headphones on explosions and lightning guns It's amazing!
And there's another level to it, which is, in a computer game, rewards are linear.
You work for a bit, you get a reward.
You work for a bit, you get a reward.
You work for a bit, but life isn't like that.
In life, you work for a bit, you get fucking kicked to shit for years sometimes, right?
You gotta work and work and work, and sometimes it's gonna be really shitty for a long time.
And then there may be a reward, or there may not.
Sometimes the work is the reward itself, right?
So that, in some ways, it actually changes how you think about achieving things and doing things as well, which is, you know, I have sometimes found that helpful.
Because you kind of know if you work, you get a reward.
But sometimes it can mess with your reward system as well, I think.
You're crossing a line because you're making a subjective judgment.
It's not funny to me, and it's not funny probably to a lot of rational people, but you should be able to try.
Like the whole thing about doing something, like a lot of times when people do outrageous things they think are gonna be funny, they don't know, and then they try it.
That's not a thing you should arrest people for.
Because you're setting a crazy precedent.
Because then it becomes subjective.
Like what's outrageous and what's not.
It could move to anything.
It could move to trans identification or trans rights.
There's a whole slew of things that could be stuffed into that box once you open it.
You just can't open that box.
That box has got to be – people have to be able to – this is how we have to conduct ourselves.
People have to be able to express themselves and they have to be able to use facts and reality and not get censored and they have to be able to do that kind of universally.
And if they can't do that, if the good ideas can't compete against the bad ideas, then the good ideas aren't good enough.
So we have to figure out how to strengthen the good ideas.
But the only way that works is if you don't censor people.
Because as soon as you start censoring people, you're admitting that you don't want to engage in this.
You don't want to show a better way of looking at things.
You just want to be the only person who gets to talk.
And that's what we saw on social media over the last few years.
Which is why Elon buying Twitter was such a big fucking deal.
It's a big fucking deal.
And I know advertisers are panicking and people are saying that hate talk is up.
And I must admit, I have seen a lot of wild shit on X now that I don't think I would have ever seen before.
Openly racist stuff, some pretty gross stuff.
It's just weird how comfortable people are talking a certain way.
It's almost like I wonder how much of the idea of it being...
I think that in terms of the hate speech stuff or whatever you call that, whatever it is, that's just a product of the fact that they're not moderating as much.
And I actually think, I mean, what you said was, you know, just preach on that.
But I also think on top of that, we have to, those of us who believe in freedom of expression, we have to also admit that freedom comes at a cost and it's worth paying.
I think the problem is man is that we spend all our time on these platforms which incentivizes that type of behavior because it's always going to be the most controversial take and The most reactionary point of view that's going to gain the most engagement and that's going to work with the algorithm which is going to drive it.
So really, you know, people respond to incentives and you're incentivizing people to be more reactionary, more divisive, more aggressive.
When the reality is, as we all know, like if you got those two people to sit in front of one another and have a conversation, they wouldn't behave like that because you have the added element of getting a punch in the face.
And we've also come to this point, Joe, which is really worrying to me, where people think that words of violence That's crazy, man.
You know, and if you think that words are violence and if you literally interpret it as that, then you having an argument with someone is you literally being physically assaulted.
So if you feel like you're being physically assaulted, then you're going to up the ante and you're going to become more aggressive as a result.
Because if you don't have incentives, if you don't have something in place to keep people from committing crime, and people that have already committed crime in their life like multiple times, like many times, they're just going to do it whenever they want.
Hunter S. Thompson wrote about the Chicago riots being one of the most horrific things that he ever saw in his life, the way cops were beating the people with clubs and shit.
There's always been bad cops, just like there's always been bad plumbers.
Some people just suck.
They suck at what they do.
They come from a bad environment.
They didn't have good role models.
They grew up around assholes.
They don't have any motivation.
Maybe they're hooked on drugs.
And they suck at what they do.
And that could be anything.
Anybody could suck at anything.
Cops, too.
There's cops that are awesome human beings.
I know a lot of cops.
They're great people.
From Jiu Jitsu, I've known so many cops.
Because cops are constantly training.
And generally, they're really nice guys with a fucking really hard job.
But you don't hear about those.
You hear about the one that does some horrible thing.
You see about the one who plants the gun on the guy after he shoots him.
You see the one where people shoot people when they're reaching for their wallets.
You see the crazy shit.
You see people punching women in the face.
You see crazy shit, right?
But you don't see all the positive interactions.
And you don't see what happens.
If you get rid of them.
And that's what you're seeing with these smash and grabs.
These are fucking bananas, man.
Because they're everywhere now.
And people are seeing so many of them on the internet.
And they're seeing that people are getting away with them.
But when Chavez came to power, after a few years, they said the cops weren't going to prosecute people, criminals, because prosecuting a crime is a sign of right-wing oppression.
Wherever you heard that before, right?
And as a result of that, it became so completely and utterly lawless that the city became uninhabitable.
It became the murder capital of the world and the kidnap capital of the world.
Because there's always going to be a small subset of society who are criminals and who will then look to maximize their opportunities to make money.
Yeah, there's a couple arguments about this that make sense.
When people say that they're a victim of their circumstance and we have to appreciate that they were put into a horrible circumstance in life and they're just trying to get by.
That's true too.
So what we have to do that we're not doing is try to figure out how to stop that.
How to make a minimum quality of life for everybody where no one's growing up in dire poverty.
How many trillions of dollars have we spent just on military budgets over the last few years?
If they figured out a way to give contractors a lot of money to fix neighborhoods, To completely clean them up, provide modern housing, take care of all the...
Figure out ways to set people up for work programs and give people jobs.
If that was financially viable, just like Hal Burton had those contracts to rebuild Iraq after we blew it up, if they had something like that for inner cities where these guys could literally make money doing it, that could be one way to kind of re-engineer things.
Because if they could just figure out how to do that, you'd have so much less crime.
You'd have a lot less crime if people had hope, if people had role models, if they had community centers, if they had really good education and they had safe streets.
You know, people don't talk about the culture aspect about it a lot.
I remember when I was teaching at a school, there was a really rough school, I taught a little kid, let's call him Darren, and he's one of the smartest kids I've ever encountered.
So bright.
I remember he was always getting kicked out of school, kicked out of lessons.
And when I was, like, one of the jobs that you do as a teacher is you walk around the corridor and you pick up the kids who get kicked out of the lesson.
And I just, I then taught Darren chess.
And within about two days, he could beat me at chess.
He was super, super, super bright.
One of the brightest kids I've ever encountered.
But because he came from a criminal family, he was never going to make it through school.
He just wasn't because the values that had been inculcated him right the way from birth meant that he was never going to succeed.
And this is what I found frustrating that a lot of people didn't get.
Yep, he's a kid who's a product of his culture and it takes a very special person to be able to break out of that and generally they have to find something to break out whether it's Music or sports or something.
Yeah, that breaks them out of stand-up comedy that breaks them out of that So some new world that they can enter into and succeed in and then they could leave the old world behind and at the same time coming back to the point you made earlier Crime still has to be illegal.
But the way to fix it is not defunding the police.
That's the worst strategy.
But that's such a virtue signaling strategy.
That's like, look what they did to George Floyd.
No, look what one guy did.
One guy did, and there was a more than appropriate response by the people that saw that video.
People freaked the fire, and the violence and the burning of all that smashing and shit, very unfortunate.
But that outblast of hate at least should make people recognize that A, you can be held responsible for something horrific like that if someone's filming it.
And then also that those kind of cops do exist and also that it's on all of them and we got to figure out a way to train cops or screen them better or like Jocko says that you should train them the same way train SEALs.
Like SEALs develop, they go through this training program, and then they dedicate a certain amount of time forever for training.
They're always training.
Cops don't do that.
They just stay cops.
And he's like, you should dedicate a certain percentage of their time should be dedicated to training.
And they should be held accountable.
But it's also it's like you're asking a lot and then on top of that you're essentially dealing with people that have a high instance of PTSD. Very high instance and not discussed and not appreciated.
You hear about PTSD from people that are victims of violence and people that are victims of war.
You hear about that but you don't hear about it about cops.
And even if you're a woman, you should know jujitsu.
You should be able to defend yourself.
Because...
We've seen time and time again these horrific situations where cops can't physically defend themselves and some criminal gets loose and beats the fuck out of them.
You know, when I left university, I did a temp job at the Metropolitan Police, just doing paperwork.
And what was really interesting when I was working in those offices is there were a lot of cops there working, and they were all just guys who were burnt out, PTSD'd out of their eyeballs.
They couldn't function anymore, and all they did was just routine admin jobs.
And I used to go with these guys to go and drink, and like...
Really good guys.
Really good guys.
And the stories they told me, they were just horrific.
And the drinking culture.
And the only way a lot of these guys were functioning is by working.
Most of them, you know, they had one or two marriages, they had failed, and then they would just go out and just get smashed.
Because that was their only way of coping.
Because...
The support for them was minimal.
They didn't have any support.
If you go to a murder scene and you see a guy who's basically killed himself and then shot his daughter and his wife, and you don't have any type of support when you come out to talk to, to help you to process that, you're not meant to be exposed to that.
So when I was teaching, I taught in rural communities.
And in a lot of rural communities, because of globalization, because of the industrialization...
There's just generation after generation who are growing up, who are becoming adults, and there is no work.
There is no work for the vast majority of them.
And what it inculcates in them is a sense of hopelessness.
And if you grow up in a culture where you feel that there is no hope, and you look around you, and everyone is broken, and no one is working, and everyone is given up, then even as a kid, you think to yourself, well, what's the point of doing anything?
Because I'm just going to end up like Uncle Dave on the sofa getting...
You know what I mean?
Even if you don't intellectually think it, emotionally you feel it.
Well, that's a thing that can happen to kids in high school.
So if you're in high school and you're hanging around with the crowd who likes to party and drink and fuck off and not do much, and those are the fun people to hang out with, and then you get out of school...
And now you're supposed to get a job.
Now you're on your own.
You have to figure it out.
And these guys aren't figuring it out.
If you're trapped in that kind of a friend group, you can get sucked into very low expectations.
And you could fucking waste a long chunk of your life before you figure that out.
And culture, you're right, Francis, is such a powerful thing.
When I was 18, I spent a few weeks sleeping in the park.
I didn't have money and I had a long family situation.
Very bad, but it never occurred to me that I would stay there because that wasn't what I came from and it wasn't the environment I was raised in.
I always knew that I would get out of it, you know?
And culture, you know, whatever attitude, whatever you want to call it, will push you through things that if you don't have it, it's going to be impossible.
Right, if you don't have expectations that, you know, you don't know people that have succeeded in life and done well and That's a better word, expectations, than culture.
But the thing that I found most heartbreaking, man, is there were kids in my class who I taught.
They had learning difficulties.
They were, you know, they're low IQ. They weren't particularly bright.
They were sweet kids.
And they were just targeted by gangs, because gangs knew that they could groom them, that they were 10, 11 years old, there was no one at home, no one cared for them.
They could groom them, and then they could become drug runners and whatever else.
You know, my ex was an educational psychologist.
She was working with a lot of these kids.
One of her kids, like, went missing.
The kid went missing, 10, 11 years old.
This was in North London she was working.
The kid was found in Scotland.
Literally a different country at the other end of the island.
And you're like, you know, and it was gang.
It was gang.
You know, because they take them, they groom them, they give them money.
They're the first person who shows them affection, the first person to show...
Yeah, he's kind of like the Donald Trump of the UK in some ways, you know, very unpopular with some things, with some people, very popular with others.
And his bank, which was a kind of like bank for wealthy people, they closed his account without explaining why.
He started doing some digging.
He did a Freedom of Information request or something.
It's not called out, but it's basically the same thing.
And the bank came out and said it's because he doesn't have enough money.
Bullshit.
Turned out it wasn't true.
Eventually, he got the information saying that the transcripts of their internal conversations were that part of the reason they shut his account down was political, right?
And then we had the Financial Conduct Authority, which is the people who are supposed to investigate this stuff.
They did an investigation and said there was no political debanking going on.
All the newspapers reported it.
And in paragraph five of that same article, you can see that his case was not taken into account in the report.
Right?
So they lied about it stage after stage after stage and now you've got mainstream journalists spreading this crap that they know isn't true.
See, the judge was saying that it's worth between...
It says, okay, citing an appraisal report from the city of Palm Beach that pegged the value of Mar-a-Lago between $18 million and $27.6 million between 2011 and 2021. Oh, right.
Okay, so it was $18 million and now it's worth because of inflation.
$27 million.
$325 million.
That's how much Forbes estimated Mar-a-Lago is worth as of September.
Although it paid its net value at $292 million after deducting roughly $33 million in debt.
Okay, so it's got debt.
So I think what they're saying the scam is, is you wildly overinflate a piece of real estate.
Again, I don't know jack shit about real estate, right?
But I think what you do is you say, I got a house worth a billion dollars.
I need a loan.
And they give you a loan based on this billion-dollar property you have.
But then they send an appraiser to you and say, hey, but this house is worth $18 million.
Then you're like, uh-oh.
So now you really got a loan, but you got a loan based on something that's not really worth as much.
So their collateral or whatever it is, the reason why they would give you that much money doesn't make any sense.
But clearly that can't be accurate.
If you're seeing pictures of that fucking place, show some photos of Mar-a-Lago.
If that was 18 million, dudes would be buying them every day.
It would last three seconds on the market before somebody bought it.
You know the thing that always gets me, man, is like, you're reading the mainstream media and they criticize our podcast and your show and then they go, these people spread misinformation.
I'm like, mate.
What are you talking about?
You've been spreading misinformation from day one.
You know what I mean?
It's like getting a lecture on dating from Ted Bundy.
Yeah, it seems crazy for them to keep harping on that at this point.
It's like, don't you know about the internet?
People have made, they've made like compilation videos of you guys being wrong over and over and over and over and over again, and you've never apologized for it.
I mean, whatever you want to talk about, whether it's the Russia collusion thing or the saying the dangers of Trump denying the election, then you show, like, how many people denied Trump's election?
You know there's a little collusion between social media companies.
We know that now.
That's kind of scary.
That's kind of scary that you would think that what you believe is so important that you're willing to manipulate an election.
That scares you.
It should scare us, because it's like, man, they could use that on you.
Imagine if we have this fucking amazing person who's running for president, and finally, all rational people in the center, people that are rational on the right and the left, agree this person has the country's best ideas in mind, and we've made Like, awesome progress with the way this person is communicating with everybody, and it seems like they could really unite us.
And they get fucked.
Somebody comes in and just manipulates it, doesn't like the idea of some new person taking charge, doesn't like the idea of some radical thinker who wants to try to make things as good as possible for the whole country, and that maybe there's a way to do that.
And they get fucked by some establishment spokesperson because they know how to manipulate the system.
And look at the thing, the people that rise to the top in the current system in your country and in ours.
I mean, the idea that these two people, whoever they end up being, if it's Biden and Trump, let's say, these are the best people out of 320 million fucking people?
Well, the thing about Biden is he's already won, right?
So he is the president.
So it only makes sense that he runs for president if he's physically capable of doing that.
The thing about Trump is there's, you know, the narrative that he and a lot of his followers put out is that the election was rigged and that, you know, he should be the legitimate president anyway.
And no one else is—no one's voting for anybody else.
Like, these hardcore Trumpers, they're going to go all in on Trump.
So it's like, okay, how else could it be other than Trump versus Biden?
Unless they arrest Trump, unless they figure out a way to make some of these charges stick.
Because this is probably the only chance he's going to have of avoiding jail.
So, you look at it like that, and you think, Trump is already a guy who, let's put it bluntly and mildly, will do whatever it takes to win.
And if you put a guy like that and you say the only way that you're going to avoid jail is to win the presidency, you're already notching it up a few ratchet when it comes to making the atmosphere really toxic.
You know, it's like there's really no defending it rationally.
So if you're on the team that has to defend the left, which, you know, you've all seen people like that on podcasts before, where you realize, like, oh, this guy's just, this isn't like a real person.
This is a representative of whatever they're for, whether it's the right or the left.
You know, there's people like that where you never really see them.
And they can do so in a way that you really, it's not available anywhere else.
The reason why people are so hungry for these kind of conversations on podcasts is because You can't get it anywhere else.
These other people aren't doing it.
They're doing a different thing.
They're doing a thing where there's a giant business behind it, and there's advertisers, and there's a bunch of executives and producers, and they all have segments that they've developed, and there's writers and everyone.
And then you get to express yourself sort of through this very narrow window.
To be able to just sit and shoot the shit and just say, why is this and why is that and what is this and what is that?
Like that kind of freedom to do that, it's never existed before.
And then what is this crazy push where you want people to not have ID to vote, but you want people to have ID to make sure you have a vaccine passport or you can't work or get on a plane?
And did you check any of these people to see if they're vaccinated when they came aboard?
I think we talked about this last time with Thomas Sowell, who's just like...
I mean, I've read every book that he's ever published, and I just think he's amazing.
We talked about the tragic vision versus the slightly more utopian way of looking at things.
When you were talking about crime earlier, the tragic vision of life kind of says, if you look back at our history...
You kind of get a sense of what human beings are.
And human beings are flawed.
They're not perfect.
They will commit crime.
They will do terrible things.
They will go to war.
They will do that.
And so the only thing you can do is know that and then act accordingly, right?
That means that you have to have a border.
That means you have to have a police force.
You have to recognize the fallibility of human beings and the societal dynamics as well.
And then you can make good policy.
That's how you make good policy But if you live in this blue sky world only the blue sky world is great for inspiring you to be better than your human instincts and all of that But there's also a real world in which you have to you have to be able to live in both and it's hard It's really hard but if you can do that you can hopefully make improvements because you're trying to be better you're trying to speak to your own and other people's better angels and And at the same time, you have to recognize that not everybody's a good guy.
Some people are terrorists.
Some people are murderers.
Some people are rapists.
Some people will do things that you don't want to happen, and you have to also tackle that at the same time.
And immigration?
Countries need borders, man.
That's something people used to agree about, left and right.
You know, I've quoted Barack Obama talking about this.
Actually, Constantine went to speak at this festival.
It's a very prestigious festival in the UK called How the Light Gets In, right?
And I have friends who go and speak there and go and watch it, debates.
Like I said, Constantine took part in a debate there.
And one of my friends went to watch because his partner, she was speaking there and hosting debates.
And I said to him, how was it, mate?
And he said, do you know the thing that was really worrying?
I go, what?
He goes, and bear in mind, these are some of the most educated people in the UK. At least one of them, per panel, per debate, went, look, until we abolish capitalism, then we're never going to solve these problems.
And he's just like, you're talking about genetics.
You know, the problem is they're so insulated in these university-like ecosystems.
They're so insulated.
If you're a professional academic, I mean, look, it's a noble thing.
It's an amazing thing to be a professor.
It's an amazing thing to be educating kids and shaping minds and exposing them to great literature and mathematics and all the wonderful things professors teach.
But the reality of their existence is you go from being a high school student to a college-university student to getting your master's degree, to getting your PhD, to teaching.
You're constantly in this world, and that world is almost entirely left-wing, like, radically left-wing.
Like, what is the percentage of, like, far-left professors?
You almost even think, when you think professor, like, far left, it's like Catholic priest.
So then they're in that world where they're constantly being reinforced.
Like these ideas are reinforced and never challenged and almost, you know, ridiculously so.
Like really bright people talk like they're in a cult, like avoiding reality and bending truth to placate whatever the new social norm is for anything.
It's bizarre to see.
And so those people are always going to be in conflict with reality.
So when they're like, you know, we should abolish capitalism.
So what they want to do is every podcast streamer or whatever it is, platform, that makes more than $10 million revenue, not profit, revenue, has to register with the Canadian government.
They then want them to hand over information about their content and the people listening.
They're talking right now about, and maybe we're going to need to fact check this again because I was reading it this morning, but basically they want it to promote Canadian, something to do with basically Canadian greatness or whatever it is, they talk about it, and Indigenous affairs.
And you're like, oh, so they're going to say a number of things are un-Canadian and then you can just silence them.
You got locked out of all of your money because you donated to a cause where you didn't think that people should have to take an experimental vaccine in order to be able to work to drive a truck.
It's banana Republic stuff We do these calls with our top supporters and we have some in Canada we have this lady who's been supporting us for years and You know she's always fine and in the middle of this thing she was like I'm terrified Like I'm not gonna be able to eat because they they're gonna shut down my bank account Right In Canada?
But if you frame it that these people, which is how they were being framed, as racist far-right, well, look, you're giving money to a far-right racist organization.
You're encouraging hate.
Well, the government has to step in.
We have to step in, and we need to freeze everything because we need to make everything safe.
But so imagine you're sitting in Parliament and everyone's like, hey, let's do a, you know, stand up and give a round of applause for this war veteran.
You're like, ah, and then it turns out you're applauding a Nazi.
Yeah, if you're living in that time, do you think it's just everyone's doing it and you just get sucked into the cult and you're scared or you believe it?
Is it that easy for human beings to other people?
Is it because it was a different time and people just didn't have as much exposure to knowledge as they do today and that wouldn't be as possible today?
I hate to think that that's a possible...
Because there's always been times in history where people committed genocide.
There's always been times in history where people have decided that this other group, and oftentimes other groups that look exactly like they do, right?
Those are the bad people.
Whether it's because of religion or a line they drew on the dirt, they've decided that those people are worth exterminating.
And those stories are...
Fucking horrific.
And the Nazi Germany one is just the latest one.
It's just the one that we call upon.
But, you know, just think about what the Mongols did.
You know, that's in 1200. Think about what they did.
They just sacked entire cities, just killed everybody, piled them up in big fucking stacks, lit everything on fire, took all the women, and they just left town.
And they did that all over Europe, all over Asia.
They did it all over.
They've ran everything.
They killed something in the neighborhood of 10% of the world's population was murdered during Genghis Khan's era.
So much so that the carbon footprint of human beings on Earth got lower.
You know, there's a lot of historians in Russia who say that many of the reasons the way Russian people are the way they are and there's a lot of, like, trauma in society that's carrying on is from that period.
We have a lot of words in Russian for cruelty and all that sort of thing that come from that period.
The horror of a gigantic army of men on horseback intent on murdering everyone in front of them.
And that that was consistent with the era.
It was normal stuff.
That was like, oh, the Mongols are here.
We're fucked.
That's a thing that human beings have always done for some strange reason.
They've always done that.
And the thing about today is that as much as we know about humans, much access technology we have, the interconnectivity that we have with each other, there's still war.
And no one, if you had to put your money, if you're a gambler, within 10 years will there be no war on Earth.
What kind of odds am I getting?
Because for sure there's going to be something popping off somewhere.
But then there's also the flip side of it where there are like, you know, I always tell this story because to me, it's this is a story of my grandfather.
So my grandfather in the Second World War, he used to he was a master joiner, which is the highest level of carpenter you could get.
And he used to work in a factory in Manchester on the mosquito plants.
And the fascinating thing about the mosquito was it was the only airplane.
It was a fighter airplane and was made entirely out of wood.
So it was because Amesha Smith was very lumbering.
It was very heavy.
It was a great fighter plane, but it wasn't very nimble.
And the Mosquito was.
And he was making Mosquito.
So he was exempt from going to war.
And he, I think it was 1941 and he was a smart guy and he was following what was happening.
And he, like I said, he was exempt because he was part of the war and a very important part.
He resigned his position at the factory, enlisted to go and join.
I had a baby, my aunt Patricia, who was probably around one or two years old, married, and he enlisted to go and fight in the war, knowing full well that there was a very significant chance that he wouldn't come back.
Yet he risked his life because he knew that there was something more important.
And whilst we focus on the bad, there's also incredible people, like everyday people, like from that generation, who just went, no, this is wrong.
And I need to stand up and I need to do something.
I think there was an article recently about the fact that the U.S. Army is having trouble recruiting people because they're just not physically capable.
If you only had numbers you had to achieve, it wasn't the best fighters.
It was just who meets certain criteria.
There's going to be a bunch of people that get murdered.
They're going to get thrown in with the real ones.
There's going to be a certain percentage of people that are just there because they're awesome, and a certain percentage of people that they have to hire in order to meet these DEI standards.
Man, it comes to a point, and this is where we talk about the university campus, right?
You can have these demented ideas on a university campus, and all they are is an exercise in intellectual masturbation when you come down to it, when you break it down to its purest sense, right?
And in a way, that's fine.
What's wrong with having stupid ideas and debating and believing it?
But the problem is, is when you start to implement it in the real world where there is such a thing as reality...
Just like we're talking about universities, the echo chambers on the right wing online are just like the echo chambers on the left wing.
It's like...
It rewards that.
Everybody looks for their favorite commenters who jump on their threads and comment on each and every one and back them up on these things and they look at all the likes and yeah!
I remember last time I was at your club, The Mothership, we touched on it briefly when you and I were talking, but this, to me, is the most beautiful story of a beautiful woman living her best life.
And then you've got politicians who, on Question Time, which is our most prestigious political debate show, they had a member of the SNP, because this happened in Scotland, so this is a member of the Scottish National Party, and this SNP member was asked, Is Isla Graham male or female?
I would have never imagined if you came to me in 2013 and said, guess what's going to be a crazy subject 10 years from now?
Guys who just say they're women and they put them in women's prisons.
What?
Come on.
That can't be a thing.
Imagine if you had to dress up like a woman for a whole year in order for it to be legit.
There was a rule.
You could do it, but you had to dress up like a whole year.
So criminals just started dressing up like women.
Became like the thing, you know, like guys like the sag.
Yeah, like that's how they wear their pants in prison, right?
So they like to sag.
It's like part of the part of the thing What if that becomes the thing like, you know, there's only one one to get locked up with women You gotta dress like a woman all the time So you gotta dress like a woman for like a whole year in order to be accepted It would be the new style of like just just people just like I'm a criminal I don't give a fuck.
It's what I do if I get arrested at least I'm gonna get arrested with women and Yeah.
And if you don't, if you're trying to pretend that, you know, you have this group that anybody can join and that these are new rules and we're all living in Narnia now.
Like, there's so many people that have ideas, people that don't have children, they have ideas that I think...
They just have this ideology that they subscribe to but with no consequences for anyone that's really young that they love and care about.
And then when they have kids and then there's someone young that they love and care about, you start looking at the world as a much more dangerous place.
You start saying, oh, these people are like little kids.
Like there was some little girl who got kidnapped really recently.
They found, they used geo-tracking of cell phones and shit and the person's fingerprints from the ransom note and they got her back pretty quickly, luckily.
But a nine-year-old girl just gets kidnapped.
There's people like that in the world.
And when you have children, you think like that.
Someone could steal your kids.
That's real.
Someone could hurt your kids.
And someone could go in the locker room and watch your kid go to the bathroom because they decide that they're a girl.
And that doesn't mean that...
There's not people that are legitimately trans and identify as women and that's who they are and they're not perverts and they're not creeps.
If someone just says, I'm trans, I can use that restroom.
You're opening the door for perverts.
You 100% most certainly are.
This doesn't deny the existence of trans people.
But we have to be honest about what could possibly happen.
That's why if people are uncomfortable with biological males walking around female locker rooms, it's because some people are liars and they're con artists.
And they're not really, it's this person that's like been trapped in a man's body their whole life.
They're fucking perverts and they want to be around kids or they want to be around women.
They want to make them uncomfortable.
They want people to stare at their dick while they walk around and know that they can't say anything about it.
That's real too.
That's real too.
This doesn't discount the problem that trans people have with integrating it to society and being accepted.
That's real too.
That's real too.
But you have to understand that if you just have this blanket policy where no one can question anything about this stuff, you're opening the door to abuse.
And you have a front door in your house, not because you think everyone is going to come and steal shit from your house, but you know that some people will, so you have to put certain things in place to protect yourself and your family.
Well, it's just there's no screening in women's bathrooms.
Like, you don't know whether someone's a creep.
You have no idea.
It's not like, you know, getting into a fucking job where they have to do a background check on you.
You know, it's not like applying for some top secret position where they have to make sure that, you know, you're someone who could be trusted with information.
No, it's like a bathroom.
So it could be like someone just out of jail, puts on a dress, goes into a women's room.
I mean, that's what we're accepting today.
That is a possibility.
And women that feel vulnerable in those situations are fucking terrified, and rightfully so, because if they do encounter something like that, they get no support.
No one will take your side.
You saw what happened with that thing that happened in Hollywood at that massage parlor?
Someone who had a history of being a sex offender, walking around naked in the women's room, they complained, and then all of a sudden there's protests there.
Yeah, they got DARPA cheetahs and shit and all these like really nutty robots are working on that you could do backflips and they could do parkour like with their making super robots and when those motherfuckers decide to reinforce the will of AI and Just roam to the streets like that fucking Will Smith movie I robot We're not far away from that man that might be our best bet that might be what gives us hope is that AI takes over government and And they take over allocation
It also won't say anything nice about Donald Trump.
Really?
Yeah.
Didn't someone do something like that?
They tried to say something good about Trump and why he'd make a great president.
Hey, I wonder what it says.
Let's find out in real time.
Because somebody told me that, but I always wonder, you know, like, are you using the same program?
Are you using the older program or the new, what is now, 4.5?
What they're saying is when five comes out, each one of them is exponential.
They're more and more complex.
Their answers are better.
They can code websites in seconds.
They can figure things out that you can never figure out.
If you had a lifetime of studying over books, figure things out instantaneously.
We're real, real close to having full-on training wheels for life.
Just like you don't remember phone numbers anymore because they're all in your phone.
Donald Trump has a talent for engaging with and energizing his supporters.
His ability to connect with a large segment of American population and inspire passionate loyalty is noteworthy.
Additionally, his presidency marked a period of significant policy changes, including tax reform and criminal justice reform, which had lasting impacts in the United States.
It's important to remember that different people have varying perspective on political figures and recognizing their positive attributes can foster constructive dialogue.
You know, the thing that really worries me about AI, it's that it's going to get rid of low-skilled labour that employs a hell of a lot of people, particularly a hell of a lot of men in this country.
I saw this great clip from Tucker Carlson where he was going, you know, we're talking about AI, but AI is going to bring in driverless cars.
It's going to bring in driverless lorries.
Think about how many men in the US at the moment are employed in the driving industry.
What's going to happen when all of those men become redundant, there are no jobs, They're at home, and he goes, I'm going to be honest with you, men without direction, men without jobs, earning without responsibility, that doesn't end well.
The favorite's always the war ones, because it's just so crazy that they'll just lie to get us into wars, and that it's always been a thing.
You know, Hitler burned the Reichstag, and Nero burned Rome, and the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and the Operation Northwoods thing that they planned.
That was signed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and vetoed by Kennedy.
Were they going to arm Cuban friendlies and have them attack Guantanamo Bay and blow up a jetliner and blame it on Cuba?
They were going to do some wild shit to try to get us to go to war with Cuba.
Those are the most fascinating to me because there are a bunch of people at high-level positions in the government that are conspiring to get us to go to war.
And this is what Eisenhower warned us about at the end of his presidency.
He warned about the military-industrial complex.
It was a fascinating speech.
And if you think about it now, it's like, God damn, was he right.
That to me is the most fascinating because it seems like there's just this machine that's always been running society.
But we've kind of pretended it wasn't.
Pretended that wasn't the case and pretended it wasn't this massive industry that requires war in order to feed itself.
Yeah, the more they talk about it and not show me anything, and the more they have whistleblowers and all this, the more I'm like, why do I feel like I'm being fucked with?
Why do I feel like there's something going on?
Why do I feel like this is a juicy distraction?
Why do I feel like, because it always happens in these military areas, why do I have a feeling like you guys have developed some insane technology that people aren't aware of?
I mean, and it might even not be a physical thing, right?
It might be something they can project from satellites.
Maybe it's some sort of a hologram.
Maybe it's a...
I mean, who knows what the fuck it is?
Maybe it is from another planet.
Maybe there are interdimensional beings that occasionally visit us, and they always have.
But that sounds...
It sounds goofy.
But the problem is if something as crazy as alien life visited us, wouldn't it just seem fake?
That's the other thing I'd tussle with.
Even if they really were having actual disclosure, they really are having congressional hearings about...
Whether or not these things are ours or whether or not there's any crashed UFOs that the government has retrieved, is there really a program where they retrieve crashed UFOs and back engineer them?
Is that real?
So if it is real, how long has this been going on?
And you guys are just telling us now?
If that's real, that changes everything.
It changes everything about the way we interact with the universe.
That we're like little children and they're just keeping an eye on us like Chimp Empire.
Like, be careful over there.
Don't do anything nutty.
Be careful.
Let's just watch them.
We'll just watch them as they evolve and eventually travel into the cosmos like all the other aliens.
Have you heard of the one about Hitler and Stalin?
Well, the idea is, and I'm not into a lot of conspiracy theories, but this one, having read a lot of various historians talk about, I actually genuinely think could be real.
It's the idea that Stalin encouraged Hitler.
I mean, they signed a non-aggression treaty.
The Soviet Union funded Germany, sent them grain and all sorts of other things.
The idea is that Stalin wanted Hitler to start a big European war so that once it was all done, he could come in and sweep over the ashes, which makes a lot of sense because the communist idea was you can't make this shit work unless everybody gets it.
That was the idea of communism, right?
You can't have communism in one country.
You have to spread it around the world.
And they said this openly, the communists, that the best way to do that is to have a world war, and then you can spread the ideas as a result of that.
They're like, even in Star Wars, they never made anything better.
Go back to like fucking Luke Skywalker, like the first movie, Star Wars, and then to the last movie.
They basically have the same weapons, same fucking light speed capabilities, same problems with their spaceships.
They didn't get any better.
We get better constantly.
We're constantly obsessed with innovation.
And if you just looked at the species as a whole, what is it doing?
It's making better stuff.
And even the things that are weird about it, like this desire for material possessions.
Well, one of the things that does is it facilitates consumerism.
It facilitates people buying things.
That facilitates innovation.
You've got to sell more things to people.
I've got to get you to buy a new TV. You already have a TV? I've got a better TV. And this is constant.
Whether it's computers or cars or whatever it is that we make, everything's better.
I think when you combine that with this new emergence of AI and when you see what's possible with quantum computing and what they're projecting for the implementation of that kind of technology, we're looking at another life form.
We're building another life form.
We're going to build an artificial life form that's way superior to us.
We're the electronic caterpillar that is building the cocoon.
You instantly can get information and explain to you how to do very detailed and specific things like that.
That's just the beginning.
It's going to be so much better than you, and it's going to make a better version of it really quickly.
If you give it the ability to create, I mean, why isn't that engineerable?
It seems like it could.
If you could engineer creativity into some super intelligent, artificial thing that you've created, it seems like that's what we do.
We just think we do all these other things because that moves us closer and closer towards this.
But ultimately, when that does happen, all that other stuff will be bullshit.
The pyramids, the fucking airplane, the invention of the iPhone.
Nonsense.
It's all nonsense compared to this life form that we're about to make.
So let us get caught up in fucking whether or not a trans person should be able to play in women's sports or whether or not climate change is so real we need to bury trees.
Let's pay attention to what's really going on.
We're about to give birth to a fucking super intelligent life form.
It's going to take over Earth.
And we're either going to merge with it or going to be consumed by it.
Not dead people from some fucking bomb we dropped.
The purpose of the energetically autonomous tactical robot eater, just the fact that he Patent pending, guys.
Hang on for that.
We'll make a big announcement when the patent comes through.
Project has developed and demonstrated an autonomous robot platform able to perform long-range, long-endurance missions without the need for manual or conventional refueling, which would otherwise preclude the ability of the robot to perform such missions.
The system obtains its energy by foraging, engaging in biologically inspired, organism-like energy-harvesting behavior, which is the equivalent of eating.
It fucking eats things.
It can find, ingest, and extract energy from biomass in the environment and other organically-based energy sources, as well as use conventional and alternative fuels, such as gasoline, It eats everything.
Gasoline, heavy fuel, kerosene, diesel, propane, coal, cooking oil, and solar when suitable.
In addition to missions requiring long-range, long-endurance ability, the Eater can provide direct support to combat units without requiring labor or material logistics support for refueling because it eats the bodies on the field, kids.
At least it's for its own energy while the unit rested or remained in position.
We talk about a crisis of meaning in the West particularly.
I mean, that's what it is, right?
A lot of people not having purpose.
And then it plays into what we were talking about earlier, which is you go on social media and you can attack somebody and that gives you power, that gives you meaning.
Someone was talking to David Pakman and they brought up this idea of if you were alive and there was an election with Hitler, And you knew that you could stop Hitler from being elected.
You would do whatever the fuck you could.
Morally.
And that is often the way they portray Trump, which justifies people doing everything and anything they can.
Throw every lawsuit at his direction.
Don't even look at the optics of it.
And don't look at the possibility that you're setting a precedent and then some right-wing person, including Trump if he gets into office, can now do this to you.
And it might be the source of many religious experiences.
It might be the source of many, many stories that people have had about encounters.
I mean, there's so much ancient religious artwork that centers around mushrooms, including all the old depictions of Christmas.
All the old depictions of Christmas involve the Amanita muscaria mushroom and elves.
All of them.
And that's a psychoactive mushroom.
That's the mushroom that John Marco Allegro wrote about when he wrote that book, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
He was a guy who deciphered the Dead Sea Scrolls.
He worked on them for 14 years, and it was his conclusion afterwards.
He wrote a book about it called The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
His conclusion was that the entire Christian religion was probably a misunderstanding.
What it was really originally all about was fertility rituals and mushroom rituals.
It was about the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms that brought you to God and fertility rituals.
Because having children back then was like, it was imperative.
Everybody died.
You know, everybody fucking died.
Nobody lived.
Got an infection?
Dead.
Broke your leg?
Dead.
So it was hard times back then.
And so...
It's probably the root of so many religious experiences.
They believe it's the root of the Eleusinian mysteries.
That's Brian Murrow Rescue's book, The Immortality Key, where these people would travel to Eleusis and partake in this ritual where they drank wine, where now they know for sure those wine vessels, they've now tested them and found that they have ergot in them.
So these people are tripping balls.
They've opened up a field of study at Harvard about this now.
You know, the thing that I find really interesting is as our society becomes more godless and we become more secular, we've started to embrace things like ayahuasca as experiences.
Because there is still that deep-rooted need within us to have a psychedelic slash religious experience.
I think it's very much almost like a religious thing.
It's like they believe there's only one ideology, there's only one way, and that way is the right way and the good way.
And there's a lot of – like Marc Andreessen laid it out, that it's very much like a cult.
And that there's a separation.
They take you away from people who disagree, take you away from your family, isolate you.
People are cast out of the group if they violate any of these very rigid principles.
And there's a lot of fear involved in it.
It's very aggressive.
People that are involved in it are very aggressive in enforcing their ideas on other people and wanting other people to comply with their ideas, much like proselytizing.
You know, there's some research that says that that's why almost everybody has a fear of public speaking.
Because historically, in the ancestral environment, if you were in front of a group of your peers, and they were all silent, that was usually not a good place to be.
But to be able to do it on stage, you know, it's a tricky thing because it seems like you're just talking.
But there's a lot going on.
It's very complicated.
It's hypnosis in a way.
You're hypnotizing people.
You're dragging them into the way you think about things.
If you do it well, if they enjoy it, they're having a good time, it's one of the most rewarding experiences both as an audience member and as a comedian.
But the other side of that is if you fucking eat shit up there.
I always say bombing on stage is like sucking a thousand dicks in front of your mother.
But I think somewhere out there there's a guy who wants to suck a thousand dicks in front of his mom.
You know someone out there going, you watching mom?
We were real lucky that we got this spot, the Ritz Theater, that was like the perfect place.
It's almost like it's supposed to be there.
When we walked into the room, we're like, oh my god, this is it.
This is perfect.
It's the perfect size.
And there's two rooms.
Oh my god, this is perfect.
We had to make some changes and shit.
We raised the floor and lowered the ceiling and did a lot to the sound and all that stuff.
Changed all the seating and everything like that and built a new stage.
But the bones of it were perfect.
Like, the structure that was available to build it in was perfect for this idea of just having a place that's like, even the big room is still real intimate.
It's still, like, it's fun.
And it's all super positive people working there and super happy people.
Everybody's getting paid well.
Everybody's having a good time.
And it's just like a real good energy.
Like, it just feels good when you get there.
Because everybody's kind of trying to do the same thing.
And the people that are going there are trying to do this.
They're just trying to have fun.
Everyone's just trying to have fun.
So if you can create, especially with everything so fucking kooky right now, like people are so excited to just blow off steam.
And it's not, I mean, the building and the environment, it's all great.
It's all perfect.
But that, to me, isn't what makes it special.
To me, what makes it special is...
Wherever I go as a comedian, when you gig at a comedy club, the comedian is always the afterthought.
It's the only comedy club that I've ever been to where it's the comedian who is at the foremost.
It's the place where the comedy is respected.
And that is unique, man, because unfortunately with practically every other comedy club, with the exception of a certain few, the comedian is always the last person to be thought about.
Genuinely, the design and the idea behind it was just make the best place for comedy.
I just took the same attitude that I do with all other things.
I just apply it to that.
What's the best way to do it?
What's the best way for the art form?
The best way for the art form is that a lot of open mics.
We have open mics Sunday and Monday.
The employees, the door people are all comics.
They audition for the job with their act.
They're all happy to be there, and there's a real path to being a professional.
They see it laid out in front of them with Kill Tony.
They see it laid out in front of them with the showcase nights and all the clubs that are also in Austin that are blowing up.
There's like the Sunset Room that's right down the street from us.
There's the Vulcan.
There's Creek in the Cave.
Those are all within like a really quick walking distance.
So door people can punch out and go do a set and come back.
They can say, hey, I got a 9 p.m.
set at The Creek.
Okay, cool.
Just punch out.
They punch out.
They go down the street for 15 minutes.
They come right back, and they go back to work again.
And they also can get spots on the showcase nights.
They can get spots on the open mic nights.
They get spots around town.
There's road gigs you can go to.
They go to road gigs together.
It's like they see this path where you see guys like David Lucas and Hans Kim and William Montgomery have gone from exactly where they are to being touring professionals who are headlining in clubs and making a great living and having fun doing the thing they love to do.
So there's a path.
Because before it was like you kind of had to figure out your own path.
You know, you got to kind of hope that someone would hire you to do the road, and you would hope that a comedian would take you on the road with them.
There's still some of that to some extent, but it's clearer now.
And you get to, like, you know, you get to see, like, Mike Vecchione was there this weekend.
You get to see Andrew Schultz was here a couple weekends ago.
Tim Dillon's coming up.
They just announced his show.
You know, like, Chappelle stops by when he's in town.
It's like you get to see, as a person who's, like, coming up in comedy, you get to see all these great comics.
And it's got to be one of the best things about being in your position is being able to create things that you enjoy but give opportunities to other people and create a space for other people to succeed.
You know, I went to watch Kill Tony last time I was here, and I have never seen the energy that was in that room Like, you could use it to power, like, cities.
I've never seen it.
That energy that is in that room from the audience and then, like, the symbiotic relationship with the comedians and the audience, it's so powerful.
They're terrified and they're just so terrified that they're gonna say or do the wrong thing, their partner's gonna leave them, their kids are gonna hate them, all of these things in their entire world and everything that they've strived for so long to build, this tiny little kingdom, if they step out of line, everything is gonna crumble.
But the fact that he's willing to do that, and he's so, I think it's so, I mean, he's my friend, yeah, I'm kissing his ass, but I think he's a fucking massively important cultural figure right now, and he's often maligned and labeled as being alt-right.
Is he right all the time?
No, he's wrong sometimes.
He's like, yeah.
Remember he tweeted that thing about the guy who broke into Paul Pelosi's house?
There was some controversy about whether or not that story made any sense.
Maybe this guy was already there.
People were implying that maybe Paul Pelosi had an affair with this guy or something.
There was a lot of crazy theories that were bouncing around.
No, we saw the video.
There was a fucking crazy person with a hammer that broke into the guy's house.
But The ability to just find out, to talk about stuff, even if you're wrong, like, that's real important.
But the ability to know when you're wrong, too, and to be able to admit it, that's important, too.
Like, all of it's important.
We've got to be able to work this out.
And you're going to get people to say the wrong things when you're allowing people to just freely speak and think in real time without doing any fucking research sometimes.
There's a lot of people who espouse ideas on Twitter or X or whatever.
They haven't looked into this very much.
This is their belief and they're going to spit it out there.
Then they're going to start defending it.
They're going to yell at you and call you a fucking simp.
And to me, as somebody who has been, obviously grew up, spent time in the UK, and now everything has become more and more sanitized, it was kind of like a cold slap around the face.
You know, we're sanitizing culture to the point where the maverick, the person who is a little bit kooky, the person who is, we would describe as a little bit out there, those are the people who change culture as well.
The people who see things in a completely different way.
Those were the people who were like, I mean, he said it.
I can't believe he said it, but you know.
But we love that because we get to live our life vicariously through those people.
It's so cathartic.
I remember the first time I went, like my friend, a couple of comedians, one of my mates went to me, right, you've got to go and see this guy called Bill Burr.
And this was like in 2014, and he was playing the Leicester Square Theatre.
I think you played it as well, Joe, back in the day.
It's a little 400-seat theatre, and I remember watching this guy, and I'm like, number one, this is the funniest thing I think I've ever seen.
And number two, I can't believe he's saying this stuff.
Yeah, and you know, there's something you said last time we were here that really changed the way I think about it all.
I remember I asked you about Teddy Atlas and how that conversation went and how you felt about somebody saying something about a friend of yours that was not complimentary.
And the thing you said was like, the first thing is you have to let the person say their thing.
They have to let them express themselves.
And that is just so simple but so profound in the current culture.
People always think you're supposed to push back immediately.
I always at the very beginning of any kind of wacky conversation where I think someone's off the rails or I don't agree with them or I'm willing to think in the way they think.
I'll open myself up.
Okay, tell me how you think about this.
You've got to let them lay it all out.
If you interrupt, if you jump in...
When I had Bobby Kennedy on, I said it was the first time in 18 years anybody let him talk like that.
Everybody always pushed back.
Everybody's felt like I have to stop you.
I have to say studies would disagree.
I have to say what you're saying is not true.
I have to say no vaccines have been the most important invention and you have to say let the guy talk.
There's a hunger for intelligent conversations with people.
People you agree with and disagree with.
That's how you find out about stuff.
I mean, I remember those conversations.
One of the things that I used to really love watching is these debates, like when Christopher Hitchens was alive, when he would debate religious people.
And let me ask you something, Joe, about the new atheists because there's a lot of people – I wrote an article in my sub-site called The Atheism Delusion and there's a lot of people now talking about how that idea hasn't really worked out in the sense of once you take away religion, once you take away people's – we talked about it earlier.
People need religious experiences, right?
I wonder whether part of the problems that we are facing is the lack of it.
The criticisms that they were making were legitimate.
But where we've ended up doesn't seem to me to be a good place.
And then you get, we talked about this earlier, the woke ideology coming in.
It almost feels like a replacement for what we had before.
That was the thing they were trying for a little while, or some factions were trying, where it was Atheism Plus a series of ethical and moral guidelines.
So it was like atheism.
It wasn't just atheism.
It was atheism plus like a lot of like very woke ideologies.
But particularly at the time they weren't calling it woke.
It was like progressive ideology.
And then I'm like, oh, okay, religion.
So you guys have like rules.
You're going to have – it's not deities.
It's a moral high ground.
It's instead of a god, you have a set of ideals that can't be questioned.
You know, we interviewed Dawkins a couple of months ago, one of my favourite ever conversations, and what a brilliant man, what a brilliant mind.
And we were talking with him, and I said to him, but people need religion, Richard, because the reality is we're all going to die.
That is the reality.
That is the harsh and brutal reality of human existence.
We are born and we shall die.
But the idea of death to the vast majority of people, and understandably so, is so terrifying that it's impossible to intellectualize, it's impossible to accept.
So I think the vast majority of people need religion.
And that's why you're seeing the ayahuasca rituals become like a replacement in a lot of ways for religion.
But, you know, honestly, a better one.
I know a lot of people that have gotten like some profound changes from psychedelic experiences if done correctly with the right intent and the right setting.
You can't deny them, whether it's psilocybin or DMT or these experiences that people have had where they've legitimately changed as a human being.
I had a psychedelic experience in January this year.
I did the full thing.
I had a shaman, and I did a mushroom...
Ceremony in my house.
And we did the mushroom trip, and then the guy administered this tobacco, which they use in the native people use in South America.
It's a tobacco you put up the nose.
I don't know what it is.
I remember when it happened, when he did it, the first hit, I didn't get anything from it.
I just felt uncomfortable.
He put the second hit up my nose.
Everything went black.
I just saw these orange kind of squiggles in front of me.
And then I just felt myself like sinking backwards.
And I had no control over my body and I was lying back and I remember at one point I kind of thought this is what dying is.
This is what it means to literally die.
And I panicked halfway through and I remember sitting up and trying to sit up and whatever it was just smacked me back down.
And one of the parts of me that I'm not proud of is a kind of sort of depressive element to my personality and going, oh, this is fucking bullshit.
I want to die or whatever.
You know what I mean?
And it kind of like, you always had that negative side to you.
Well, you're going to experience death, motherfucker.
You know, you're actually going to experience what it is to die.
And having gone through that and having experienced that, it...
It made me realize, I don't know why, there's no way of intellectualizing it, there's no way of seeing it, but just, I know there is a God, but it's so beyond our capabilities to understand what it is, that it's kind of pointless to talk about, you know what I mean?
And that the energy that we put out, good or bad, ripples and creates Positive or negative reactions all throughout everything you experience.
Whether you want to believe that or not.
Whether you want to believe you're immune to that, whether you're doing coke and fucking stealing money from the hedge fund.
You're putting out an inescapable negative reaction.
And that the more good you can do, and the less you can do that, the better you will be in life.
That it should be a practice that you should practice trying to put out the least amount of negative energy Yes least amount of conflict the least amount of bullshit the least amount of Where you could take the high road.
Take it.
Take it always.
There's a way to do it.
Find a way to communicate with people, even people you don't disagree with, with respect and dignity.
And it'll be better for everybody.
You both walk away feeling better.
Even if you don't agree with each other on something.
But so many people are so invested in conflict.
They're so invested in that.
And it made me realize, like, that's just like a negative trap.
Just a feedback loop that will play out for your whole life if you don't stop it.
If you don't correct it inside of your being and just Commit to no longer doing that.
If you don't do that, you're going to constantly be involved in conflict.
And we know people that are constantly involved in conflict.
We know people like that.
There's always something wrong.
There's always something chaotic with them and what they're doing and who's doing something to them and they're doing this to that person.
Probably a lot less weird than Twitter, but what I mean is What I mean is how do you think about the inevitable the inevitability of your own death?
Something I'm thinking about and having children changes how you think about it for me at least Well, there's a certain amount of things in this world that are out of your control.
And if you concentrate on things that are out of your control, you're fucked.
And if you...
I mean, that is the epitome of existential angst, right?
Constantly worrying about your own demise.
It's going to happen.
And that's part of the wildness of the puzzle of life, is that you know it's going to happen.
And you have to be able to somehow accept that and also appreciate life right now.
Because if you were dead, or imagine if you're on your deathbed, and this is your last gasps of air.
If I had something that I could give you, and all of a sudden you'd be 39 again, and all of a sudden you'd be doing a podcast again, and all of a sudden you'd see your wife again, and see your children again, and see your friends again, and go to the places where all the people you love go, you would be so happy.
You'd be so happy to be there.
Like, oh my god, I got another shot at this.
And we don't often think that way.
We really should appreciate the moment.
As corny and fucking spiritual guru, wooden beads as that sounds, we really should appreciate the moment.
And it's a matter of managing your mind to the point where you can do that consistently.
It just made me realize, man, everything is connection.
What we all crave at its most basic is connection.
That's what we all crave.
We crave connection.
We crave to be around people, to share ideas, to be heard, to be listened to, to feel love, to give love.
And that's why you see social media is the ultimate con trick in a way, because it's going, oh, you're more connected than ever.
But you see it when you see a couple and they're going through a day or whatever else, and they're both on their phones and they've both got their head down.
And you go, you're not connecting.
You're not having a discussion, which is why our show works and why your show works.
Because it's connection and that's it's it's a beautiful thing and to connect with another human being and to share to listen to share experiences To and to play.
Yeah, it's it's but it's life and I think the other thing that's cool is like people get to listen to your show and have conversations They did they're kind of a part of this conversation you get to go back and forth with it and They don't have anybody in their life.
They could have that conversation with So they have access to these conversations that you have with these people.
And through that, they get an enhanced perspective of things.
So maybe they're in a place where there is no one like these people that you're talking to.
And they get to listen and go, oh, well, maybe the way I'm looking at things is narrow-minded.
Or maybe the way I'm looking at things is flavored by all the people around me.
And I've just sort of accepted that as my own ideas.
Maybe I don't agree with them.
Maybe I'm more in line with the way you guys think.
Or maybe I'm more in line with the way your guest thinks.
And it's as weird as it sounds, like you're enriching people's experiences as a human being through doing that.
For us, from day one, man, every conversation, it's a privilege to be, I mean, in your case, even more so.
You've got some of the most amazing people in the world coming in here and sitting down for three, four, five hours, whatever it is, and you get to pick their brain and have a connection and a conversation.
And I think about this a lot because even our perceptions like who Joe Rogan is or who Constantine or Francis is, for most people it's a snippet of some information that they saw Different people saw different snippets.
So if you're arguing about who is Francis Foster, well, our perspectives are going to be so different because we've got different experiences.
So I remember, and it was so crazy, a friend of ours had a girlfriend who was very smart, very interested.
She's kind of into the stuff that we talk about and whatever.
And we were at a party somewhere and she was saying, oh, you were just on Joe Rogan.
Isn't he all right?
And I was like, okay, let's unpack that.
What do you mean?
You know how I can go when I disagree with somebody, but I just held back.
And I was just like, let's find out what you're talking.
And what it came down to is you're a masculine guy who's got muscles and tattoos.
I mean, look, I'm a huge boxing fan and you can look at all of these, you know, the greats like the Frasers, the Ali's, you know, the Joe Lewis's, you know, all of these people.
But I would say that with Tyson, with early, early Tyson, he was the most exciting fighter.
You know, you just, you don't, and like I said before, you know, you took, you had an interview with him, you humanized him, you made him, to me he became not Mike Tyson, this avatar, the baddest man on the planet, but what he did, he became a human being.
And it also enriched me because then I was like, oh, I really want to do psychedelics because I want that, that insight that he has had about himself and that process, I want to go on that journey now.
He's skilled like a smaller man and he's enormous.
He's so fleet on his feet, his footwork, his movements.
He's such a good boxer, man.
He's such a good boxer.
Francis has got to catch him with a big punch, and he's got to be able to figure out how to do that.
How do you catch a guy who's been boxing his whole life against all the greats in boxing?
Guys are the best boxers ever.
That's it.
Francis, I believe, when he was a young man, if he had just gotten into boxing and not into MMA, if someone had found him when he was Mike Tyson's age, when Mike Tyson was 13, and trained Francis, like if Custom Auto had found Francis, Francis is a terrifying specimen.
He's so big, and he's so powerful.
He's the greatest one-punch knockout artist I've ever seen in the heavyweight division.
The stuff that he does, the way he takes people out, the way he knocked out Aleister Overeem and Cain Velasquez and all, it's just like, if he hits you, you're fucked.
But that's with little gloves, right?
So you have to take into account the gloves are bigger.
You gotta take into account it's only boxing, so the footwork and the movement is gonna be different.
And he's fighting a master.
You know, if he can connect, who fucking knows?
It is the quintessential puncher's chance, but you would have to, if you look at the betting odds, they must be enormously enticing Fury's favorite.
What are the betting odds online for this fight?
Let's take a guess.
I would say 5-1, 6-1, 7-1, something like that, maybe more.
Well, this is what I was going to ask you, because if it's a puncher's chance, the question is, how does Ngannou compare power-wise to a Deontay Wilder?
1100. But Jon Jones, man, I would so love to see that fight, particularly when we saw what happened with Cyril Ghosn, because you look at Cyril Ghosn, you go, this guy moves so well for a big guy, so skilled, so talented, and it was over.
It's fun the fact that the heavyweight champion of the UFC who, you know, retired as a heavyweight or left the UFC as a champion is going to get to box the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time with zero professional boxing fights.
Let's see.
I mean, it's kind of like the Conor McGregor fight.
Let's see.
And real similar in the talent that they're facing.
When Conor McGregor fought Floyd Mayweather, Floyd Mayweather's arguably the best boxer of all time.
I mean, the most defensively sound boxer in the history of the sport.
The guy literally has only been hit hard like three or four times.
His whole career.
I mean, especially when he really became the great Floyd Mayweather.
He was just outboxing everybody.
Canelo Alvarez, Manny Pacquiao.
Everybody got it.
Everybody got it.
Ricky Hatton.
Everybody got it.
He beat the fuck out of everybody.
He's the man.
Floyd's the man.
50-0.
That's the guy.
If you're going to have an all-time great...
It's hard to argue that it's not that guy.
Because he's the guy that got away from the sport with the least amount of damage, the most amount of money, and he's also been able to sustain himself doing these exhibition fights for crazy amounts of money where the people literally have no chance.
Literally have no chance.
And he's boxing these folks.
And they'll fly him over to Japan, you know, when he had that fight over there with this kickboxer.
What he's doing is pretty wild.
And, you know, what Francis Ngannou and Tyson Fury are going to do, that's pretty wild too.
When he first started out, he was Pretty Boy Floyd.
He was a different Mayweather.
He was Pretty Boy Floyd, and then he became Money Mayweather.
And he became Money Mayweather, that's when more people started watching.
And the more shit he talked, and the more he showed you his diamond-encrusted watches and Rolls-Royces, and the more people wanted him to lose, and the more he kept winning.
You watch Tom Aspinall's movement for a heavyweight, his diversity and his skill set, leg kicks, submissions, he's fucking super intelligent, fast as fuck, he's big, naturally big guy.
Super dedicated to the game.
Tom Aspinall has a real shot.
So maybe it's Tom Aspinall.
But if Jon Jones wins all those, and Francis wins in the PFL, and then leaves, and then they can have another fight.
The only thing I've seen is, sorry, Tyson signed that other fight against Usyk that he's going to make over $100 million for both of those, but I haven't seen it.
You know, Jon Jones, to me, is such a fascinating character.
Because when I watch your interview with him and he talked about contrition and wanting to be a better man, I'm like, I believed him every second of the way.
And then you look at his behavior afterwards and he's still just as wild.
Where Tommy Hearns had Roberto Duran in trouble and then clipped him with the perfect right hand of Roberto Duran.
Face plants.
And when you're watching Roberto Duran face plant, it's like, what?
It's hard to believe.
The guy who beat Sugar Ray Leonard, like one of the greatest boxers of all time, and Tommy just catches him with a perfect That's the thing with those guys, man.
It's a good fight in terms of like, you know, Tony Ferguson's been on an unsuccessful streak and Paddy the Batty had that controversial fight with Jared Gordon.
It's a good fight.
It's a good fight for both guys because, like, you know, Paddy's the guy coming up and Tony is the legend.
And so it's a real crossroads fight.
And for Tony, it may very well be his last fight in the UFC if he loses.
That's, you know, fair to speculate.
A lot of people have been calling for him to step down, to stop fighting.
Yeah, well, that's also one of the things that's exciting about the sport is that there are those people that just get to this spot where they just rise above to the point where, like, you know, like, you can't wait to watch, like, Volkanovski, can't wait to watch him perform again.
Like, damn, he's on it right now.
That guy's on it, you know?
Anderson Silva, when he was in his prime, was like that.
Jon Jones, when he was the light heavyweight champion, was like that.
You know, it's like, damn.
This guy's on it.
Like, he's in that zone where, like, the greatness lies.
You know, it's not just being the best in the world, but handily defeating anybody who dares challenge him.
Yeah, when we had Dan Hardy on, we asked him what it was like to go into the fight against Georges St-Pierre, and I think he said something, like, he kind of, I don't remember exactly what he said, but he kind of hinted that, you know, you're aware of the fact that this guy's, you know, at that level.
Because when you make certain arguments beyond the pale, and those arguments have merit and value, but you're not allowed to say those arguments anymore.
And number two, you are going to get someone from outside the mainstream coming along and going, yeah, they're talking nonsense to you, and here's the truth.
I wonder what's going to happen with this, you know, there's clearly, when you see what's going on with Canada with the podcast thing, where they're trying to get people to register their podcasts.
I think there's a crazy fine, too, for violating it.
I think the fine might be something crazy, like $250,000 or something like that.
It's like a very high fine.
See what the fine is for violating the rules.
But when you get stuff like that, I wonder what's going to prevail.
What is going to prevail?
Is free discourse and free speech going to prevail?
Or are we going to go full commie?
Are we going to go full censorship?
Because if we do, if we cross a line where you really can silence people, if we cross a line where you can use dirty tricks and tactics to eliminate anybody that doesn't think the way you think, whether it's through censoring them on social media or whether intelligence agencies step in and tell you to remove posts because they go against the narrative that the government is trying to push.
Well, I think the thing you hit the nail on the head, Francis, earlier when you were talking about how they're changing the concept of safety, that's what we have to push back against because there's this idea if you hear opinions you don't like or people are talking in a way that you don't like, that makes you unsafe.
My fear is that we are beating the drums of a real war.
A real war involving superpowers.
And a real war involving technology beyond our comprehension.
Including hypersonic missiles.
They can change direction in air.
And you can't track them, you don't know where they're going.
You can't do anything to shoot them out of the sky.
They're just moving too fast.
And they hit cities.
Boom, ba-ba-ba-boom, boom.
And then we're fucked.
And then you're – I mean I don't even know if it helps to have masculine men then.
I don't know if it – what helps?
If you can get to a point where you can debilitate a country's infrastructure, kill their power grid, remove them from the internet, remove their ability to communicate with each other, that's not that – I mean, that's totally believable.
That's not an impossible scenario where precise strikes, even if they just decided not to kill everybody, they just decided to destroy the power grid and destroy the infrastructure and kill the internet and kill the pipelines.
I mean, look what they did with the Nord Stream pipeline, right?
What if they decide to do that with all kinds of gas and oil pipelines?
What if they decide to do that?
And, you know, shut down power plants and do so in a way that we're left powerless.
We have nothing.
What are we going to do?
We're going to rise up against who?
They'll literally starve you out.
They'll shut down the infrastructure of the country.
How would the country work if there's no power?
How long do we have if the whole grid gets wiped out?
Let's just imagine an attack.
Even if it's just some sort of a very complicated cyber attack that wipes out the whole grid.
How long can we survive with no power?
The grid's very vulnerable.
Texas almost lost its grid here because it got too cold.
We came that close.
We came that close because we're independent from the rest of the country in terms of the grid.
If the Texas grid, it was like they were very close to losing everything.
Yeah, if you left me alone on an island with all the books that have ever been written for a million years, I'd never figure out how to make the internet.
Well, look, we're victims of our own success, right?
Because we've built these amazing things and they're good things to have, right?
Having a power grid is good.
But we've got to also be smart.
And one of the things we're finally starting to realize, at least in the UK... Where we went super crazy on this net zero stuff is you have to produce your own energy.
You have to have control of that.
Otherwise, where are you buying it from?
Who are you buying it from?
And what are they going to do to use the fact that you're buying the energy from them against you?
There's so many problems with just the way human beings acquire minerals that need to go into cell phones.
This is the cobalt problem.
The fact that everybody's phone has this element in it that comes from people literally digging it out of the ground in mines that are working in the most horrible conditions imaginable and that this has been documented.
And if they're gonna keep doing it, it seems like what we need to do, I mean, this sounds very simple from a moron like myself, but they need to figure out technologies to clean the air.
And that doesn't seem impossible.
In fact, there was some talk of a giant skyscraper that acted as an air filter and that they were gonna install it.
Remember those, Jamie?
Yeah, see if you can find that.
There's talk of construction.
It might have been in China.
They were going to build these essentially skyscrapers that were really just giant air filters.
And that instead of a skyscraper that housed, you know, office buildings or people, it actually housed equipment that just sucked pollution out of the air and filtered it.
And you're like, hmm, maybe that's it.
Maybe that would work.
Maybe you could actually capture...
There it is.
The skyscraper-sized air purifier is the world's tallest.
So what if they just had those on every block or had those, you know, every, you know, X amount of blocks where they figured out a way to clean the air?
Okay, it can reduce pollution in major metropolitan areas by 20%, for example.
Yeah, so this seems like it's about air pollution, but your point about China and India, Joe, is so right, because I was talking to an Indian dude, and he told me the time of partition, this is 1947, when India became independent.
Average life expectancy in India, Jamie, fact check me if you could, please, but I think it was 37 years.
Fast forward to today, it's over 80. You think those people are going to give up burning shit to live longer?
You think they're going to do that?
Because I don't think they will.
I don't think the Chinese are going to stop making stuff and producing stuff and burning stuff.
To reach net zero emissions by 2060, the report estimates China needs between U.S. $14 to $17 trillion in addition to investments for green infrastructure and technology in the power and transport sectors alone.
Okay, so says Xi Jinping said, since September of 2020, when China's president, Xi Jinping, made the pledge to reach net zero by 2060, the country's ministers and locales have been mobilized to devise decarbonization roadmaps for their jurisdictions.
Maybe they can do that.
Maybe they can...
I mean, maybe there's technologies that either haven't been implemented or just theoretical, where they can figure out a way...
To clean it up without destroying their economy.
And that might be possible.
I don't know.
But it's certain that human beings are having an effect.
I mean, like, specifically with pollution.
And not just that, not just the air.
We certainly should be looking at carbon dioxide and certainly should be looking at...
We all should be looking at what the fuck we're doing in the ocean.
We're killing the ocean.
We're filling it up with garbage and literally killing most of the species.
We were just talking about the other day that they don't really know what the real numbers are, but they think it's estimated that we've killed somewhere in the neighborhood of like 80 to 90 percent of the fish.
You know, the thing that I find really, really demoralizing about this debate is the fact that the complete lack of critical thinking skills.
People on the left, therefore they think this.
People on the right, they think this.
I'm not going to mention this person's name.
They came on your pod and they were like, well, I think, you know, it doesn't exist, climate change.
And that person thought that way.
I think a lot of it is because they're on the right.
You know, so they see the way the tribe moves, they move with the tribe.
Instead of actually taking every issue, looking at it themselves, doing the reading, doing the work, and then going, well, this is what I think, regardless of this tribe or that tribe.
Yeah, I mean, hundreds of thousands of years, right?
Those areas are ruined.
But the thing is they can mitigate that now and they can figure out a way to have nuclear power plants with better failsafe than they had in Fukushima.
Fukushima they had like a backup and that got crushed too.
And then they're fucked because they can't shut it off.
And then you have this reactor that you can't shut down and it's just chaos.
All of the problems in comic books, like, with radiation, it's all like someone becomes a superhero, now they have these powers, and they have to, well, I guess I have to save the world.
You know, because it's easy to go down this route and go, the government are keeping things secret, and of course the government do, and of course they're cover-ups.
But if there's one thing I can know from the British government, it's just that they can never cover anything up.
Right, but that's the legislators and the Senate and the Congress.
What about the fucking people that are involved in the highest levels of the military?
I bet they keep a lot of good secrets.
I bet they're real good at it.
Especially people that are working with defense contractors.
Like if they really did receive a crashed UFO and they were back engineering it, it would be a national security imperative for us to get that first.
If there's some craft that came here from Alpha Centauri and they've managed to get a hold of it, and they're trying to figure out how that thing works, you better shut the fuck up until we figure this out.
And I think that would be, like, if you were a patriot and you were working for the government, you would keep your fucking mouth shut if that was your job.
Also, they're looking at every email you send, every text message you send.
Or it also can cover up this other thing that you have going on.
You say, oh, these are off-world crafts.
It can't be ours.
Meanwhile, it is ours.
One of the things that's happening that's weird is they're always in these areas where the military operates.
Like off the coast of the East Coast where they've seen those things.
Is it like a cube inside a circle?
Is that what it is?
It's either a cube inside a circle or a circle inside a cube.
But they keep seeing these things that can hover at 120 knots completely still, move off faster than the eye can see.
And this is something that Ryan Graves experienced.
He didn't experience it.
He experienced it on his sensors.
They upgraded their sensors in, I think it was 2014. And almost immediately, they started spotting these things that just violated everything that they knew about, like, the way objects could move and behave.
I can't remember who's made it, but it's the idea that if we were to encounter an alien species, if they reached here, they would be so technologically advanced that they could do whatever the fuck they wanted, basically.
Or maybe there's, like, levels, like we are at, right?
Maybe there's, like, if we are going to eventually travel to other planets and establish a civilization on other planets or visit other planets, how long is that?
When is that going to be?
Is that 100 years from now?
Is it 50?
Maybe that's where they are.
Maybe there's some that are a thousand years more advanced.
Maybe there's some that are millions of years.
Maybe some of them live in a solar system that's much more stable, and it doesn't have the problem that we have with asteroids.
Maybe there's, you know, less collisions, so they're allowed to reach this technological level of sophistication that's evolving over millions of years.
They're like gods.
We can't even fathom the kind of technology they have available.
Well, we would imagine that if we keep going, we're going to hit that.
Maybe that's part of the—for real, maybe that's part of all this gender chaos.
That's part of the microplastics that are endocrine disruptors and pesticides and all sorts of other things that are fucking with people's reproductive systems.
Maybe it's like a natural, gradual change that the species must take in order to evolve to the next stage.
That it has to sacrifice its lust and anger and fury and all these chimpanzee instincts that are really associated with...
Dominant male hormones and primate behavior that we see in the jungle.
I think part of it is that we've got to fix the outrage machine that we've got, which is corporate media, social media, the way we communicate about things, about ideas.
We don't always get things right, of course, but it's an opportunity to change the conversation, to have more of this, to have more long-form stuff, to pursue the truth.
Whereas right now, the incentives, and Francis said it earlier, it's a phrase I repeat all the time, human beings respond to incentives.
And right now...
Being outraged and being outrageous is what's rewarded.
And being calm, being sensible, being reasonable, listening to other people, that isn't the thing that we've been doing for the last 20, 30 years.
We've been doing the opposite of that.
And I think we have to find a way to change the incentive structure of the internet whereby we're not incentivized to be our worst selves.
We've got to do that.
If we don't do that, we're going to destroy ourselves long before any fucking aliens get here, man.
Now that our show has become bigger and people recognize us, I get a lot of especially gay people coming up to me to talk to me, to thank me and us for what we do.
This young lady came up to me.
She was American.
She must be in her mid to late 20s.
And she was like, you know, if I was born 10 years younger, and she's a gay woman, she goes, I would have been screaming the house down at my parents.
I would have been demanding a double mastectomy.
I would have been demanding puberty blockers because I was so miserable and distressed and deeply unhappy at the fact that I was a gay girl.
Yeah, that's a lot of the way a lot of gay people feel about this whole movement that in some ways it's kind of homophobic because it's saying you're not gay.
This is what we are not taking into account quite often is And we've had lots of people on the show to talk about this.
A lot of these kids are autistic.
A lot of these people, particularly the girls, they would have had anorexia or bulimia before.
Before that, they would have had something else.
It's just a way of people showing distress about what it's like to be a young woman.
It's not exactly a great time to be a young woman when it comes to body image, when it comes to the perception and the reality of how men and women relate in our society and all of that, right?
I was doing a gig a few weeks ago, and there was a comic on The Bull, an older gay guy.
Like, you know, the classic look over the shoulder both ways.
And he sat down and started talking to me.
And this is a guy whose partners experienced the AIDS pandemic, saw a lot of his friends die.
His partner was basically given a flat near to the hospital because at that stage in the 80s and the 90s, it was like, look, you've got this virus, you're going to die.
So have a flat near to the hospital where you can get treatment.
And then when you die, at least you'll be comfortable.
And he looked at me and he was talking about everything that was going on, going to Pride marches.
He was like, it's a really bad time to be gay.
He went, I went to Manchester Pride and this woman got up on stage and she brought her six-year-old daughter with her, held her up to the crowd and went, this is my daughter, she's a little gay girl.
And the entire crowd cheered and he went, I was just there going, you're sexualizing your daughter?
And that is, to me, the great hope on some of these issues is like people's love for their children is such a powerful force and it can be a force for good too.
And we've seen a lot of feminists stand up on this stuff in the UK and a lot of parents as well because you know what it's like and you're a father of girls, right?
It's now many people's, one of their greatest nightmares about what could happen to their children, you know?
And if your children get indoctrinated into something like this and make some change to their life that is permanent, and that people are encouraging them to do that pre-teen, you know?
It's crazy.
And it's something that we've always known that children don't have the ability to see the future.
That's why you don't allow them to get tattooed.
But with this, they're like, no, no, no, they know.
Yeah, because they've somehow got internalised transphobia now.
I really hope that we just wake up from this.
That we wake up from this.
And that's the thing that's great about the UK is that we do have left-wing politicians like Rosie Duffield who have come out and spoken about this honestly.
And she is a hero.
She's an absolute hero because she has been called all manner of names by her own party.
I guess the discussion moving from being orthodoxy that you can't question to people seeing detransitioners, seeing problems that we know with children being malleable and easily influenced and seeing people that might just be a feminine man that might be gay and you're turning them into a woman and forcing them to get castrated and Yeah,