Joaquin Buckley credits YouTube and martial arts legends like Bruce Lee for his viral spinning back kick, honed in small gyms like Mercy with elite coaches—Joaquin Mercilago, Andy Simmons, and Justin Hartley—while admitting striking over grappling maximizes fan appeal. His past losses to tough fighters like Chris Curtis stemmed from mental errors, not skill, and he now trains rigorously at 170 lbs, targeting underperforming opponents like Sean Brady or Vicente Luque. Personal tragedies—losing his parents young—fueled his relentless drive, shaping a career where structured training and recovery (cryo, Normatex) now outweigh raw grit, positioning him for a brighter UFC future. [Automatically generated summary]
So, you know, if you want to really hear it, man, it's a long story with it because nobody taught me that kick, you know.
What?
I never had an instructor.
Really?
No, not at all.
You know, I was just fascinated with martial arts, you know, since I was a little kid, you know, and...
Once I got started with MMA and stuff like that, the gym where I came from, it could only teach so much.
The instructors only knew so much.
It was just like a mom and pop gym type stuff where a lot of people would just get into shape.
But overall, though...
When I used to go on YouTube, I used to watch a lot of different videos, you know, on how to, you know, not just train as a mixed martial artist, but just to learn, like, different moves and techniques from different disciplines.
From not just taekwondo, but, you know, hapkido, you know, kushin, sanshao, you know, all these different disciplines that I used to take from.
And then once I looked at the disciplines, I looked at who the best people in it, right?
And then I looked at different people that's in those disciplines, whatever.
And guess who I ran into when I got into taekwondo?
I've seen one of your videos.
No, no, for real, for real.
You taught George St-Pierre how to correctly throw the spinning back kick.
I was like, man, that's dope because it's a level up from what you're showing, right?
So I used to perform that on the bag, on the heavy bag, all the time.
And people are like, man, what are you doing?
Like, whatever.
But I used to generate so much power when I used to balance, you know, my right foot on her, not my right, but my left foot because I would come in like a roundhouse kick because I'm a softball.
I would balance on the bag and then I would propel myself off the bag and I would spin.
And we used to make this hard pop like a shotgun, right?
And would bend the entire bag.
So I'm like, bro, I feel like so powerful like throwing this kick, you know what I mean?
But regardless, though, just seeing these people do this stuff and just learning from them and just imitating these moves, you know, years later, then I end up performing that kick.
Well, I mean, like low-key, but I knew that that's what I wanted to do, and it was the closest thing to a discipline, to a martial arts discipline, is wrestling.
We were talking about the difference between going to a big gym and the way you're doing it at a smaller gym.
And there's some interesting conversation to be had about that because you made some really good points about when you're in a smaller gym, you get individualized attention and you're not getting lost in the crowd.
That there's so much information out there already with all the videos that are out there and all the fights so much So so sometimes it's good just to be So my coach is a perfect example, right?
He have us working on the same thing over and over and over again And we know it and we know it about like a heartbeat, but and we tell because I coach can we do something different?
He's like, yeah, but I want y'all do this.
You know me and And you need that type of discipline just to keep doing the same thing because that's how you actually work on your tools.
You work on the basics over and over again.
You know what I'm saying?
Then it becomes instinct.
So even though we have so much applied knowledge out there and so many things that we can do, sometimes it's like the basic knowledge that we have.
And if we work with a smaller gym, we're able to focus on that a little bit more.
You know as a team, you know instead of everybody just doing their own thing cuz I don't could nobody say like big gyms Everybody's just doing their own thing everybody working with who they working with, you know They not even working with the coach unless they got a name and they got a big fight coming up That's the thing right cuz that's what I hear.
It's like you get two arguments one of them is iron sharpens iron So if you're around like if you go to ATT if you're an American top team World-class facility giant place dormitories World-class guys coming from all over the world.
But when I've talked to fighters who train there, they say, look, man, you get in there with some Russian dude you never met before and he's trying to kill you.
Like, if you're not a world-class guy, if you're not a top-of-the-food-chain guy that has a lot of money riding on him, They'll put you in there with everybody who's in class.
You have to develop and become that individual in order for them to work with you.
But they're not going to develop you.
So a lot of guys get it twisted when they go to these big gyms and they think that they're going to be elevated because of the guys that they're around.
But at the same time, like you said, people just trying to beat you up, right?
You know I mean, it's not really learning anything.
So that's one thing I talk about structure, right?
So just because you're a big gym and you able to have all these, you know Housing for fighters, you know, I mean you got the big nice match You got the heavy bags and all this other stuff.
You got all the pretty stuff But you have no structure within the gym, you know a lot of guys should be working with certain people to develop their skills.
So like I Let's say, you know, certain pros, high-level pros, you know what I mean?
Not saying that a high-level pro can't work with an amateur, but certain amateurs shouldn't be working with certain pros.
Like, they should be developed to a certain point where they're showing that they know enough, and now they can move up and work with certain individuals.
It's a wrestling academy, so he has a lot of high-level prospects, high school wrestlers, middle school wrestlers, some of the best wrestlers in the nation that come to him to learn wrestling.
So his name is Nick Simmons.
But I work with his older brother, Andy.
No, actually, younger brother, Andy Simmons.
That's who I work with.
And he's more of my size and stuff like that, so I get a lot of high-level wrestling from him because both of them are Hall of Famers at Michigan State, which is pretty dope.
Nice revenue, you know what I'm saying?
Not revenue, but a great career within wrestling.
Went undefeated, you know what I'm saying, for the longest time.
I think over 200, 300 bouts or something like that, undefeated.
And then I got a conditioning coach at the HBI Human Performance Institute, Justin Hartley.
He was an NFL player.
That's where we get all our conditioning work in.
So, like, we don't have many, many guys, you know, but at the end of the day, we have enough to work with.
We also got a guy that works with our jiu-jitsu who works at Magic named Brendan Berry, who does all our jiu-jitsu, but the crazy thing about him, he's not a black belt, he's not a high-level jiu-jitsu guy.
He's somebody that's just passionate about jiu-jitsu, who watches it every day, you know, and he shows us stuff that actually works, but he's somebody that's committed to it, you know, and who watches it every day, and that's who we learn jiu-jitsu from.
There was a lot of guys that were like blue belts and purple belts that were opening up schools because they didn't have a real good school around them, and they knew that they could teach at least a base of fundamentals, and if they were really excited and passionate about jiu-jitsu, they would grow with their students.
Exactly, exactly, and that's exactly what he's doing with us, you know, because I can see Brandon going very far, you know, and being an instructor, going far into jiu-jitsu, you know, but just somebody that, you know, Not looking for anything out of it, you know.
He never asked me for any money or nothing like that, but he shows me a lot of things that helped me win the fight against Albert Duraya, you know.
How to get the stand-up, you know, how to get my guard back, you know.
And, you know, it's just crazy because in that fight, a lot of people had me pick to lose, you know.
And thinking like, okay, I'll be dry as chains as this big gym, you know, at Extreme Couture and stuff like that.
He has all the tools.
He has all the resources.
And then I go back to Michigan.
I don't have much.
But I got the people that's able to work on the things that we need to work on.
And we do it repeatedly until I get it down.
And then we're able to show that in the fight, you know?
And I feel like that's why I'm saying, like, we're actually showing what works within this game, you know?
Because if you got the right group of people that you're working with that can help advance you in your career and stuff like that, then that's what you need to mesh up with.
But a lot of fighters feel like they need to move on from the gym that they come from, that they was developing well at, to go to a bigger gym, you know?
It really does depend upon the environment, who the coach is, what kind of relationship we have with them, but it seems like you've got a good one set up.
So how do you balance out how much grappling you do versus how much striking you do?
Like, for me, when I watch him, and obviously, you got some of the best defensive fighter is him.
But when you watch him fight, you can call it more than if you want to.
But when you really pay attention in the things that he's doing and how he's, you know, moving around fighters and how he's evading these punches and, you know, able to counter fighters, like, bro, that's very intriguing.
And that's at 85. That's at 85. So they wanted me to have one more fight at 185. They was like, well, if you want to make this good little money, re-sign at 185, fight CC, and then we can talk about you moving down to 170. Are they opposed to you moving down to 170?
I don't think they opposed, but they only seen me at 185. Right.
You know what I mean?
So they like, well, first off, because there's so many different things because people haven't seen me fight at 170, even though the majority of my fights are welterweight fights, you know?
Yeah, so the majority of my career since I was 18, since I've been an amateur, everything, and going into pro, I was a 175. But dude, you're pretty fucking swole.
Yeah, I am pretty swole.
But, you know, don't let these muscles...
Deceive, you know what I'm saying?
So, I mean, I think Michael John White talked about it before, too.
Like, when he's bulking, you know what I mean?
Like, a lot of people think he's bigger then.
Well, he is bigger, but they think he's smaller when they see him.
But when he's cut up, you know what I'm saying, and he's clean, that's when they think he's his biggest because they see all the muscle and it's so defined and everything.
We can debate all day, but my thing is, if I was to fight Izzy, you gotta put that pressure on him, like Kevin Gaston did.
And now, of course, Izzy could have gotten better from that fight, which he more likely did.
He certainly did, but still, you've never seen him fight that type of fighter again.
You know, with Kevin Gaslam been in the southpaw, a shorter fighter, an inside fighter, you know, putting pressure on him, he never fought that type of individual again, you know?
And I feel like my striking and my stature fits like a Kevin Gaslam, you know?
And I feel like my footwork is a little better than Kevin Gaslam as well, so I wouldn't just be going straight in.
I would hit different angles on Izzy.
That's how you beat Izzy, I feel like.
It's taking it out of a kickboxing range, you know what I mean?
Putting it in a boxing range and fighting inside, you know?
And then guess what?
Mixing in the takedowns, you know?
But guess what?
It's kind of hard to take down Izzy.
But at the same time, like even with Robert Whittaker, a lot of people say he probably won that fight, but I feel like he didn't do enough though, you know?
There's so many little debates that you can put up behind it, but my thing is I feel like Izzy is able to be finished in certain positions that he put himself in because there's a lot of things that he do Because of his reach, he leans back a lot to try to counter away from punches, right?
But if you can find that angle and you can see the holes opening there because his body is there, his chin is available, you know, you can find that punch.
And I felt like Jared Kananir could have exposed a lot of that if he fought the way that he fights a lot of other guys, you know?
So my biggest thing is just trying to figure out how...
Mike Tyson, one of my favorite fighters, like, he always put pressures on guys.
Like, you could knock out Mike if he came towards you, but he was evasive, you know?
He moving his head the whole We're good to go.
But if you could have just worked on just keeping your hands up and working inside and moving your angles and stuff, you probably could have did a little better on the second end, which he did, taking him down and trying to, but you trying to game plan on how to take the belt.
Like, bro, you got to beat that individual.
And I don't know how you feel about that, but my biggest thing is just like, you can't just like barely beat a champion and be like, all right, it's my belt now, you know?
There's so many different things, because you don't never know what's going on outside in their lives and stuff.
But for Robert Whitaker, he went into the fight as a winner.
I remember Michael Bisbee saying something like, Robert Whitaker didn't look as confident in the second round, but My thing is, though, like, Robert Whitaker, getting up to that title fight, he's been winning in decisions, right?
So he got used to just beating guys and taking them to a point where he's just outpointing them, for real.
You know, even with the Jerry Cannoneer, when he broke Jerry Cannoneer's forearm, It ain't like he was hunting for the finish.
He's just out pointing, just touching, just touching guys, you know?
And he's a guy who talked about having all the stuff in your personal life in order.
Last time he was here, he's like, you know, a big part of my success is having a stable family life, having a wife, not having any personal problems, no crazy people in your life, no bullshit that drags you down, which is a problem with Yeah, I mean, because it can apply, you know, negative energy into your life and into your training, you know what I mean?
You're not able to focus on the things that's really important, as in, you know, being able to provide for your family, because this is how we eat, you know?
And if you got to focus on other stuff and try to get your life in order, like a Jon Jones, and that's a crazy thing, Jon Jones be going through crazy stuff.
But when you're talking about the greatest light heavyweight, maybe the greatest mixed martial artist of all time, let him fight at heavyweight for the title.
If he can maintain that endurance and keep that kind of pace that he had at light heavyweight at 205, and if you look at the strength and conditioning work that he's doing, man, he's doing it the right way.
And right now, Al Jermaine's a champion, you know what I'm saying?
Like when a guy becomes a champion.
Yeah, like the way he fucked over TJ Dillashaw, he beat the shit out of that dude.
And I know TJ's shoulder was fucked up, but dude.
The way Aljamain fought Pyotr Jan in the second fight, he's a champion now.
There's a thing that happens to a guy when he comes into his own and you go, you know what, I can't wait to see him again because I think he's going to be even better.
That's why I know I'll be cool at getting down to 170 because I ain't got to cut a massive amount of weight.
And definitely when I clean up my diet, the only probably...
The biggest I'd probably cut is like 20. Well, if you were walking around at 181 before you fought at 85, that seems easy for you to make 170. You know what I'm saying?
But that's the thing.
I was walking around at 182, 185. You know what I'm saying?
Like when I was like...
21. How long have I been walking around?
Since I was 18, going up to 23 years old, I was walking around that way.
I didn't actually start to fill out until I didn't get any fights at 170. It makes sense that they want to see you Cut the weight, though.
That was a situation where it was the best case scenario in terms of options.
Because Kevin Holland had fought at 185 before, and he was available, and he was willing, and then they got in a squabble backstage, and so they said, alright, let's just make this at 180, and Kevin's like, good.
Because Kevin was already supposed to fight Daniel Rodriguez at 180. All that made sense.
The thing about it is, I think as you get older, I think it becomes more and more difficult for you to make the weight.
You feel weakened by the weight cut.
Daniel Rodriguez, the reason why that made sense, if you look how big he looked against Lee Jingleon, and when I mean big, I mean like carrying body fat.
And you already got Kevin Holland who didn't have to cut no weight.
And that's the thing about even Kevin.
Shout out to him.
He wasn't cutting weight for real at 185. You know what I'm saying?
Like, my man was just walking around, you know, smoking, doing this little thing, and like walking to the cage in a fight at 185. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
So, to have that fight at 180, and then tell Hans, well, I wouldn't say tell Hans, but Hans said himself that the doctor told him to stop cutting weight.
Hans was like, oh, well, I can make it.
You know what I'm saying?
So I don't even think it's on the fighters, but I feel like the UFC was able to mess this up a little too well.
And my thing is, though, but G-Liang, he had to put in that extra work in order to get that weight down to 170. Because G-Liang is a ripped guy, you know what I mean?
So I know it's hard to even try to get to the 170 weight class for himself.
But then, you know, and shout out to Neil Magny, who just finished D-Rod, because Neil Magny is one of the most underappreciated guys in the UFC. Yeah, low-key.
That guy has cardio.
The pace that dude puts on people, he's such a workman.
He just comes in and just constant volume, long reach.
I feel like Neil Mack, he does a good job of getting guys to fight his style.
You know what I'm saying?
He takes his time with guys, and guys take that pace, but then don't realize, okay, oh, time is getting ate up right now.
And Neil Mackie does a good job of tying guys up.
Just using that long job.
It's boring.
I ain't gonna lie to you.
It's slow, but even though when you say, like, oh, it's not boring, it's masterful, but there's a lot of things I be seeing Neil Mackie do, and I be, I ain't gonna lie to you, I be falling asleep.
Well, speaking of Neil Magny, you know, and I'm glad he got a win because you never know, you know, with the UFC with, you know, losses and stuff like that.
But that Shabcock kid, though, the undefeated, you know what I'm saying?
And definitely what he did to Vicente Luque was masterful.
And I was telling a lot of guys, watch out for that because just how Vicente Luque, he strikes.
And he's a powerful guy.
Don't get it twisted.
A lot of knockouts.
But he just keeps his head straight up.
Takes a lot of damage.
Takes a lot of punishment.
But if you got somebody got decent footwork, good combinations that they put together, which Jeff Neal does have, you know, you seem like, I mean, just pick them apart, just with boxing alone, you know?
And a lot of those guys with those Dutch styles, you know what I mean?
I feel like, man, they just be getting touched too much.
Well, I went into that fight with the wrong mentality.
The same way I came out in the third, I should have came out in the first and the second.
Because I was hoping and I was praying because I was, you know, nitpicking on a lot of stuff, you know what I mean?
I was just talking about where he's from, you know, being Russian, but not being a Frenchman.
So, like, you ain't got a real home at the end of the day and people love me more than you out here in Paris and I'm getting more love and they don't even know who you are.
Just little things.
I was talking about eating up Nassadine cuisine.
Just picking on him the whole time.
But regardless though, that first round I was hoping that he was going to engage a little bit more.
But because of that size and because of that length that these guys have, they will only fight me at bay.
Which is smart family.
Intelligent, right?
Why try to expose yourself and then pressure too hard where I can catch you?
But I was hoping that he would come in with a little bit more emotion.
So that's why I'm thinking, like, bro, maybe fighting at my more appropriate weight class, you know?
It's like George St. Pierre, like, you know, moving up to 185, but he never stayed there because at the end of the day, he already knew that these guys would be big.
Even if he's better as a fighter, these athletes are just different now, you know what I mean?
And anything that you're giving up, whether it's size, length, strength, like, these all play a part, you know, when you're messing with some of the best people in the world.
My biggest thing is I'm not afraid to fight guys that's bigger.
I know that I'm giving up some type of advantage for them because of the attributes and stuff, but at the same time my mentality is that I'm willing to fight and brawl with anybody that stands in front of me.
You know, because when I started off with MMA, that's all I used to work with was bigger guys.
And sometimes I was like, oh man, I can actually take the advantage because I'm faster and my footwork is there.
You know what I mean?
Or I'm just better and skill set wise, you know, because you already know like the heavier the weight class, you know, the less skills.
Smaller weight class, the more skills.
You know what I mean?
Flyweight division got some of the best fighters in the world.
Because Aaron Pico, I think, is a great example because they rushed him too fast.
Because he actually fought a dude named Zach Freeman, who's from Missouri as well.
And experienced dudes.
Zach Freeman was the most talented, but hard-working dude.
You know what I mean?
And he was a vet, so he had multiple fights in the game.
And Aaron Pico, even though he's a what?
Olympic wrestler or something like that and then, you know, golden gloves, boxing, all this stuff, which is cool.
He didn't have the experience in the MMA cage, which is a little bit different, you know?
And I feel like if you don't develop these guys' skills and experience first, they can get caught.
Even though they got all the skill sets in the world, they still just gonna get caught, you know, by somebody that's already been in that, you know, on that level.
Yeah, the only time I had surgery was when I got into the USC. Yeah, I had no injuries throughout the fight until I started fighting on the best promotion on the planet, which I'm fighting the best fighters.
I've always thought like it's kind of weird that the elbows aren't covered by a pad your shins aren't covered by a pad your foots not covered by your heels like they did it old-school like y'all gotta start right in front of each other yeah and just get the bank yeah I mean so I mean I like bare knuckle boxes very interesting but not for me no definitely not for me man yeah if you come with a big check Nah.
Is there an argument for doing that at MMA for eliminating gloves?
Because if you don't have pads on your knees and your shins and your elbows and all the other weapons that you hit people with, why do you have pads on your knuckles?
But in a real scenario, you would never have wrestling shoes on.
And then you ain't gonna pause and somebody be like, hey, wait, wait, wait, let me put these wrestling shoes on.
Of course.
Because I done been in street fights.
I done known the element.
I used to work security in St. Louis, and I worked security for like eight years, bro.
Too damn long.
But the only reason why I worked security, man, because it was so fun.
You know what I mean?
There's so many different stories there.
There's so many different things that's going on.
And just being out there in that environment and just regular life ain't nothing going on for real.
You know what I'm saying?
Just having a regular-ass job.
And I'm fighting still and I'm just training.
But this is where the fun part of it is the nightlife.
You know what I'm saying?
Almost being, like I said, the Jon Jones.
So I'm glad I didn't get signed earlier in my career because I would have had a bunch of little crazy stories to tell.
You know what I'm saying?
No, for real, for real.
You know what I mean?
But luckily, I was able to mature over time.
But regardless, though, I didn't see the street element where a lot of guys think because they train jujitsu, because they train boxing, they train MMA, that they're going to be good fighting in the streets.
But there ain't no rules, bro.
I didn't see dudes be calmly like, oh, man, I don't want to fight you because you do-do-do.
And I got a beard in their hand and smashed their head in.
But they're not even seeing, like, just the body language, right?
You're not paying attention to certain stuff, you know?
And I feel like a lot of guys that train the discipline, which there's nothing wrong with training the discipline, but they use that alone to think that's going to save them.
You know what I mean?
You got to actually have the mentality that, like, you know, you are going to end a threat at any given moment by using anything that is necessary at that time, you know?
And a lot of guys don't do that because I've seen guys on the floor thinking, like, it's a jiu-jitsu match, but it gets stomped out.
So, I feel like people be having the wrong idea when it comes to, like, jiu-jitsu, wrestling, MMA. Like, that ain't the core element of fighting itself.
And like I said, you eliminate the threat as fast as possible.
You know what I mean?
Shout out to Detroit Dust.
You know what I'm saying?
Dale Brown, you know?
But he speaks about it as well because it's just like...
You want to be in the most calm position as possible if you're amongst somebody that's trying to fight you.
You know what I mean?
Now, if you know this is about to go there, you shouldn't show that you want to fight them.
You should actually be more calm and be more whatever, and then once they actually make that move, that's when you counter whatever and hit whatever part of the body that you can.
And regardless though, but those scenarios and dealing with that type of stuff, like I said, I feel like I'm at home when I'm in that octagon, you know?
Because this is where I feel like I'm free and then I can express myself freely without actually being judged for doing what I'm doing, you know?
So that's why I love, you know, fighting in the UFC right now.
Now, when you look at your career going forward, you've got this Chris Curtis fight, you plan on winning that fight, and then you want to drop down to 170. No, I am, point blank.
I was already planning on moving down to 170, but what my manager told me, I ain't trying to put his stuff out there like that, I'm signing with Sucker Punch, Brian Butler, but he was telling me I can get a better contract if I sign one more fight at 185. Okay.
So it wasn't that Alex Pereira wouldn't be able to take the fight because I think his coach or whoever his trainer is, the one that declined because of the time frame wasn't messed up.
My thoughts on it, bro, is way different from everybody else's.
You know what I mean?
Because people call me crazy all the time.
But I think it's going to be like the same fight that we've seen Yoel and Izzy with.
Where you got two people just staring each other down, you know, not trying to make that move because, you know, they both had the capabilities of knocking each other out.
Or Francis Ngannou versus Derrick Lewis, you know what I mean?
So, and with everything, the hype being behind this fight, too, you know, Izzy is going, hopefully, like I said, if he don't apply his emotions into it like he hasn't done with every other fight...
I feel like he's going to do enough to win, but I feel like Alex Pereira is not going to be able to apply that pressure on Izzy just because he won't have the energy to sustain that for five rounds.
And he would, well, we're not going to call it boring, but he would strategically break you down all night long for 25 minutes.
If he gotta touch that leg all day, he gonna touch it.
You know, if you ain't gonna do nothing about it, if you're not gonna answer back, that's what he gonna do.
But I feel like in my heart, you know what I mean, that Alex Pereira unfortunately doesn't have the actual ability to fight Izzy the way he needs to win.
So we've been expecting this from the champ because he's so pulverized outside the cage with, you know, the French tips, the pearl necklace, you know what I mean?
Doing all these little videos and dancing and all that, just showman stuff.
But we want to see that showcase in the cage as well, you know?
And that's my biggest thing.
I'm impressed by Izzy, and I'm a fan of Izzy, first off.
But I feel like if you don't bring a fight to him, he's not going to bring it to you.
And not saying you don't work on that element of wrestling, but I don't see is he like shooting a jab, shooting across, shooting a hook, and double it.
But I feel like a lot of stuff he's been doing on his own as well.
Doing extra stuff, you know?
Which I don't mind it because you gotta promote the fight.
You gotta do whatever you gotta do in order to get people to buy in.
And to be honest with you, it's not that hard of a buy-in because...
Even with Alex Pereira not being able to speak English, he's the only person that beat him.
The only person that knocked him out.
You know what I'm saying?
So that's an easy sell on itself.
So my thing is, why is Alex Pereira trying so hard?
You know what I mean?
Like, this is the one that, if I wasn't an MMA head, and I was just like, whatever, just watching this stuff, I'm like, oh, okay, that'd be interesting to watch.
Dude that already knocked him out, this dude is undefeated in MMA, but still could be a close fight, I'd watch it.
You know?
But Izzy is going about his weight, and like I said, I don't know what's going on in his head, but I feel like he's not trying to think about the fight itself, even though it is...
The press conference and all this other stuff.
He's trying to get himself more calm, right?
He wanted to be around more people.
I forget who...
That's another fighter that talked about that and the reason why he always stayed in the press and in interviews because it took him away from the fight.
And that's why it gave me a lot of confidence to fight, buddy.
Right?
Just seeing the fight that he had against Duel, and trust me, Duel was taking a lot of punishment.
Don't get it twisted.
Duel was tough as hell.
But just seeing how that guy was able to persevere through that, right, and still clinch up against Alex Pereira and wear him out and make him tired and get him to the ground, and then eventually end up submitting him.
I was like, bro, I'm going to put that dog work on him.
That's the type of style that I bring.
I don't care who I'm fighting.
I'm still going to bring that style.
I don't care who you is.
You know what I mean?
So all I need to do is see that.
Like, oh, you ain't got that great of conditioning.
And it's not that you don't work out hard or you don't train hard.
Might have, but he's still fighting the same way to me, right?
Like I said, I look at the last loss, like even with, not even the loss with Izzy, but like with the fight with Kevin Gadsden where he got touched the most, you know?
You know, that's why I didn't mind, like, one of the main events, because I feel like I could definitely put that pressure, had a conditioning to go 25 minutes on the guys that's in middleweight, right?
But yeah, these guys, man, it's just crazy just to see the development of 185. So a lot of these guys that's going up into the rankings and stuff like that, if you're not fighting those three guys right there and you don't beat them, you're not going to fight the belt.
So now that Alex Pereira was able to skip over the head like he was a knight, like you're playing chess, was able to skip over those three pawns, and now he's getting the king.
You know what I'm saying?
So, hey, that's lucky him.
I ain't even mad at it because we want to see something that's different.
In my eyes, though, I just don't see it because I don't believe Alex Perret has the skill set necessary to fight the type of style that we need to see Izzy against.
He is doing it smart, but at the same time, he's embarrassing all of us.
Like, for real.
And it's sad because he's saying all these different things and he's talking about having these real conversations that need to be had, but it's coming from him.
Like, a lot of these dudes be like, I'll box Canelo or I'll box, you know what I'm saying, Mayweather and all this stuff, but never get in the actual ring and just train and spar with actual real boxers from, like, whatever the neighborhood.
I used to actually box with the guys from the neighborhood in Pagedale Boxing, like Josh Temple, Devon Alexander's brother.
I had to actually work with actual boxers to realize, oh, this is a different type of game.
But when you're just boxing with the guys that's in the MMA room and you're thinking because you're touching them that you're pretty decent, you're going to find out if you actually get in with a real boxer before you actually compete with them that you don't know what you're doing.
You know?
Because there's certain little combinations and there's certain like cadences that we do as MMA fighters that will get us knocked out in front of a boxer.
But the thing is, though, it's so diluted because the whole perception of MMA guys want to box is because of money.
Because I would never just get into it for money.
My biggest thing is I would actually commit myself to the sport of boxing.
I would get me a boxing coach.
Even George St. Pierre, I feel like he could have been pretty decent.
Had a great jab in MMA, but you see he was working with who?
Freddie Roach.
Right, right.
Anderson Silva also found a boxing coach, I forget who he was working with as well, but you could see him that he was training that art of boxing and he could actually compete in the actual ring back in the day.
Well, since I've already been working with boxers for a minute and I got a great boxing coach at STL Boxing, Reggie Thomas, shout out to him, I'll probably only need like two, three years to actually find me a profile.
The fact that he did that, he was able to submit one of the greatest jiu-jitsu guys to ever compete in MMA. And that's another guy that's enormous for that weight class.
Well, I feel like it's only in MMA, bro, that it worked like that.
You know?
Because, like, you see a Marswood, you see a Diaz, you know what I mean?
Of course they didn't took losses, but all they needed was a couple wins, a couple good finishes, bro, and their name was, you know what I'm saying, massive.
The lifestyle that you live and your upbringing is the biggest thing, and that's what makes for a great fighter.
You know what I'm saying?
I don't know much of Melvin Manoff's past or anything like that, but they were just talking about how you just come from humble beginnings and everything like that and how life was hard.
You know what I mean?
And I believe we were talking about Francis Ngannou in the back or whatever, but we were just talking about how great of a fighter he is because of all the things that he had went through.
And when you see him walk around and the way he carries himself, you can just tell, like, can't nothing faze him.
So that right there alone, like I said, you can use those as examples that people actually go through to not stop doing what you're doing.
Because I almost gave up on Dream on some bullshit.
Back in the past, when I used to have a gym, I finished MMA. That's where I started.
That's where I developed my skills a little bit.
But the promoter himself, me and him, we was real close.
It was almost like on a father and son relationship type thing.
And at the end of the day, you know, I was never looking at it as business, you know.
He was always booking me up for fights and always, you know, putting me out there on like a main event or a main card and stuff like that and people would come and watch me fight and I would be cool to do it because I just wanted to fight, you know.
That's all I wanted to do.
I had no other intentions, not even making money.
I just wanted to compete and that was it.
And, you know, not saying he used me, but he used me.
So my thing is, I didn't want to reach out and find different other places to fight because I'm like, shit, I'm getting fights hit.
Because he's a promoter.
So, uh, at the end of the day, you know, um, once I started to grow as a fighter and stuff like that, I ended up getting a Bellator fight.
I only got, like, a one-fight contract deal when Bellator came to St. Louis.
So they'll do stuff like this, right?
Bellator comes to St. Louis and they assign, like, the local fighters on the prelim, right?
You get a one-fight contract deal, but you would just fight the dudes that you would have fought on the local promotion, you know, anyway, but now you just fight them on the Bellator show.
But I end up showing out for Bellator, end up going crazy.
I fought, uh, I know his name.
I know his name.
Damn, bro.
That's sad, bro.
You know, I be forgetting my man's name sometimes, man, but I think his name's like Chris something.
Anyways, I end up beating him.
Beating him in the second round.
This is when I first met Big John McCarthy, right?
So this is the first time, like, a big promotion, a big-name referee actually, like, refereeing my fight.
So I end up beating dude, you know, end up getting signed to Bellator later on.
But before I had signed to Bellator, I looked for Jesse for advice.
I was like, hey man, should I read over this contract?
He was like, just sign it.
Like, don't even worry about it.
Like, this is the best contract you will ever see in your life.
Just sign the contract, right?
So I ended up signing the contract, doing whatever, you know what I mean?
Ended up taking my first loss in Israel, whatever.
Once I took my first loss, they kind of held me back for a minute.
You know, I got a KO loss against Jackie Goss, but like, it took like seven months.
Eight months before I could even get back into actually competing.
But I was already ready.
I was like, bro, I can fight again.
I'm good.
Because sometimes they'll put that restriction on you for you not to fight for a certain amount of time.
After KO. But I was already cleared.
I'm like, hey, I'm ready to fight again.
So I ended up getting another fight.
And this was with Justin Patterson.
I believe his name is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So once I fought him, whatever, I had to...
String another fight.
String layoff.
It was another like eight, seven months again.
So with me, I'm getting paid, but I'm not really making no real money.
And all I'm doing is training.
All I'm doing is fighting.
I'm not doing nothing else.
All I'm doing is just focusing on that.
So I'm really kind of just living off of these checks.
And I'm not being smart about it because all I'm doing is just fighting.
This is what's going to work out.
So, they end up giving me pretty much four fights.
So, I end up fighting Vinicius DeJesus and they end up fighting Logan Storley.
Whatever.
So, I only had four fights within like a two-year period.
So I was just working with the guys that I was working with at Finney's.
So my close friend, the one that you just met, he's like a brother to me.
So we used to wrestle together in Marquette.
And I actually got him into MMA. And the thing is, he's been watching the UFC for the longest time.
But the actual training of it, he ended up coming to Finney's MMA only because of me.
So we end up training with each other, and like I said, once I split ways with them, I was working with him the whole time.
So things that I would watch, things that I would see on YouTube, I was like, hey, bro, let's practice this.
Let's do this, you know?
And I actually got good at holding mitts, you know what I mean?
Just because I wanted to see a lot of things and just work a lot of things that he couldn't actually hold for me, so I had to hold it for him, you know, to actually get it down just a little bit.
And to be honest with you, like I said, That got to show me a lot of different, just creative ways to throw your hands, creative ways to throw combinations.
Like, you don't have to throw it like a box.
You don't have to throw it like a kickbox.
Like, you can add those fun, traditional moves in there with the fundamental basics, you know?
And that's what we was doing.
We was just having fun and just doing that.
But the thing is, though...
I wasn't able to find any fights while I was doing this type of stuff.
So I got cut in 2018. That's when I left the gym, in 2018. And then I was able to get a fight in 2019. It was only a year's time, but I felt like I got played with the two years that...
In 2016 to 2018, I felt like I got played, you know what I mean?
And not having that many fights, and I was still struggling as a fighter.
And I was with Bellator, and I was still struggling low-key.
You know what I'm saying?
So I felt like I wasted a good amount of time within that game, but I didn't know when I was going to be able to fight again.
That was the problem.
So even though it was only like, well, it was kind of close to two years, but it was still just a year and some change that I was able to find another fight, it still felt like it was so stretched out because I didn't see when I was going to be able to find another fight.
But it's a neuron disease where it shuts down all your motor functions.
And it kills the muscles where it puts you in paralysis almost.
And that's what I was dealing with the whole time as well, too.
So a lot on my mind outside of that.
So I was like, man, I can't be focused on trying to chase a dream when I got to help my grandmother wash up.
Right.
And eat and all this other type of stuff, you know?
So yeah, I had to go through that first, right?
And once I went through that, it's funny how once I kept training and kept motivated with just my friends around me, even Mariah Beck, that's one of the kids that trained with me at Phineas MMA, but anytime I called him up, he'll work with me.
R.I.P. to my man Ryan Sutton.
He was one of the guys that came out with me in my first UFC fight, but he passed away.
But that's another person that I looked to and called in order to get some training in.
But it was just a small group of guys that I would call up to just ask to get some work in.
And these guys are the people that I depended on in order to get my mental...
Just to hit pass outside in Forest Park in St. Louis, you know?
And this whole time I've been doing that, and I just stopped chasing after the whole goal of getting a fight.
And then one day, a guy named Mike Rogers hit me up because I was, you know, coming in at his gym, not in and out, but just coming there just to get some sparring work in, you know what I mean?
But not actually, like, learn anything, but just some sparring work.
And he told me, like, hey, man, LFA hit me up.
I was like, oh, for real?
He was like, yeah, man.
Like, if you want to, I can give you their number or whatever and then you can contact the matchmaker yourself because he didn't want to do the in-between talk for me.
Like, he didn't want to be like a management because I didn't have no manager.
I didn't have nothing at the time.
So he told me about LFA and I ended up getting a fight with LFA against Chris Harris.
But the funny thing about that, that little setup was that I only took the fight because I needed some money, some extra money.
That was it.
But the only reason why I took the fight as well, because I couldn't find any other fight at welterweight.
So I had to fight at middleweight at 185. And they tried to tell me it was a catchweight.
I was like, what's the weight?
I was like, is it 175 or 180?
They was like, no, it's 185. I was like, man, that's a whole weight class.
So when they told me that, whatever, I watched the dude, I did my own film study on Chris Harrison.
I was like, alright, I'll take it.
It's easy money.
I need the bread anyway.
And funny enough, that's why I stayed at 185. That was the only reason why I moved up.
Because didn't nobody want to fight me at 170 at what's the way that whole time, you know?
So I took that fight, got that fight, but I didn't worry about it.
Once I won that fight and got that little check that I got from LFA, I was back to work doing what I was doing, just chilling.
But I want you to speak to the difference in the structure.
Once you got to this new gym and all this structure that you're praising and the way that your new trainer trains you and the new environment, how much different is that and how much of an impact has that had on your career?
I think the biggest part of it was just the commitment that they had to me that I never got from that other gym.
So all the information that I had to find on my own, they had information for me.
So I was actually learning.
So instead of trying to figure out the information on my own, I already had people that was already great at what they did, and they were showing me stuff.
And now I'm able to learn a little faster and more efficiently, if that makes sense.
I mean, I did have world-class coaches because you got to just imagine like the people that I've been watching for like influences as instructors on YouTube.
Like I said, even from yourself, bro, like even if you don't call yourself a coach, like that sidekick, I only knew how to throw a sidekick because I watched your video.
I mean, we getting there, but I still haven't seen that actual, like, for real, on some boy good.
Like I said, man, I'm from, like, you know what I mean, watching a lot of movies and stuff, but, like, you know, one of those complete fighters, you know, except for, like, Demetrius, you know what I mean, or GSP, you know?
There ain't a lot of those out there, though, in my opinion.
Well, I think you're seeing more of them now than ever before, but we have to also take into consideration that MMA, in terms of real sports, is relatively recent.
There's no sport like MMA where if you go and watch the fighters from 1993 and watch them from 2022, they're completely different.
They fight a certain type of style, which is great for them, and it fits their way, but a Hamza, I wouldn't call him a complete fighter.
I feel like he's just great at what he does, and if he's able to fight another grappler, he's able to switch it up to a striking prowess, but even then, Gilbert Burns was touching him.
Even with my grandmother, her daughter, my auntie, came back to live with her, to take care of her because I wouldn't be able to be in the UFC if I had to keep taking care of my grandma.
Lowkey, people don't even understand.
That's a 24-hour thing.
You understand?
And it was sad because I had to leave my grandmother in the bed, you know, in order to go to work, to Walgreens, but I had to have a close job.
And I had to keep a monitor to watch her to make sure that she was fine.
You know, and everything that she needed, I had to leave the job.
You know, and I had to work overnights at Walgreens in order to make sure I check up on her throughout the day.
So I had to work the night shift, you know what I mean?
So when she slept, I was working.
And then, you know what I'm saying?
So just little things like that, you know, that it was hard to actually maintain an actual career as a fighter.
When I was a kid, when I was 24, I lived with my grandmother for a while.
My grandmother and my grandfather.
My grandmother had a stroke and they gave her 72 hours to live and she wound up living for 12 years.
And I was there with my grandfather when my grandfather was taking care of her 24-7.
One thing that imparted upon me is that life is short, and that you gotta appreciate your health and your ability to do things now.
And appreciate it in a way where, knowing my grandmother when I was young, when she was this wild lady, and then seeing her, my grandmother went to jail for running numbers for the mob.
So, and even with my grandmother going through that, you know, she still had great spirit, you know.
What's sad about ALS, you know, the first thing that went was her voice, you know what I mean?
Like, her voice became faint, you know what I mean?
She wasn't able to speak, you know, and all these other things.
But she's still able to smile.
And it's sad that about this disease, that can take that away as well.
But she's still able to smile and still able to laugh about certain things.
That's one thing about my grandma.
Her spirit is so...
It has such an impact that it can affect you.
Because she don't look down on herself because she was stricken with this terrible disease.
You understand?
It stands for amitrophic lateral sclerosis.
It's the actual name.
She even changed the acronym where ALS stands for abundance of love and support.
Because that's what you need in order to defeat something like this.
And Yeah.
life so she was the one that was taking care of me the whole time so when it came to my turn right couldn't hesitate you know so i was willing to give up everything in order to take care of my That's beautiful.
You know, so having her go through this type of experience and being able to see what she goes through, but how she's still able to hold her head high is beautiful.
Like I said, man, my granny took the responsibility up when nobody else wanted it, you know?
Like I said, I was, you know, with my mom and stuff, being a single mom, she raised me, so I was with her all the time.
Every single day I was with my mom, you know what I mean?
And if I wasn't with her, I was with my godmother, you know?
So I was around a lot of women at the time, and like I told you before, like, the male influences, the only thing I got was from TV and watching, you know, movies all the time.
You know, so having that, you know, and doing what I was doing, you know, it's just crazy that, you know, once my mother had passed away, unfortunately, some of the people that was in my life before left, too.
You know what I'm saying?
So, like, the people I used to always see or hang out around that was around my mom a lot when she passed away, you know what I'm saying?
It's like they passed away with her, you know, type stuff.
So my granny was the only person that really took the responsibility of raising me and taking forth that because I went through like a depressing stage like you know I mean I was never like um what's the word like never seen a therapist or nothing but like I felt like I went through a depressing stage after I lost my mom and it took me a while to even like speak to people you know.
It ain't like I turned mute or nothing, but it took me a while to even just be around other people because I was just so upset that the person that I was around all the time was just completely gone.
You know what I'm saying?
Just out of nowhere in my eyes.
And it took a minute for me to just accept the fact that she was gone.
I won't even say get over it, but I just forgot about my mom ever existing to get over the whole fact that she was gone in the first place.
I didn't even go to her burial, nothing.
I couldn't take it, you know what I'm saying?
So I was just like, man, maybe if I just forget about it, it'd be cool, whatever.
But on top of that, just understanding that life is short, like you were saying before, it's good just to go for your dreams and stuff like that.
Because I ain't trying to bounce into too much stuff, but Before, my granny even had ALS and stuff, and I was still in high school.
She was raising me the whole time.
I was kind of a bad kid, you know, in and out the house, doing what I wanted to do.
And I wasn't bad at robbing people or trying to gangbang or nothing like that, but I wanted to do what I wanted to do.
You know?
And being raised by so many women, like, you feel like you're the man the whole time, you know?
So eventually my grandmother ended up asking for my father's help in order to come back into my life and stuff like that and try to raise me, you know what I mean, or help raise me.
And I'm like 16 at the time, you know what I'm saying, 15 at the time.
And this is my first time really even meeting this man.
So once I, you know, have an interaction with him, like, I was trying to tell my grandmother, like, bro, I don't need to stay with him.
I'll just leave.
I'll just, like, you know, live on my own.
You know what I'm saying?
I'll run away type shit.
Right.
You know what I mean?
But, you know, my dad was like, yeah, you being disrespectful, you, you know, acting out of pocket and stuff like that.
I was like, yeah, even if I is, what you gonna do about it?
You know?
And that's where we had a whole situation, a whole scenario.
So the only reason why this is crazy, right, is that, you know, I find out where my fighting power comes from.
You know what I'm saying?
It's from my pops, because my pops used to wrestle as well back in the day.
So when I used to wrestle in high school, I thought I was somebody special.
So when I got into it with my dad, whatever, and we was in the kitchen and stuff like that, you know, I thought I had the upper hand because, you know what I'm saying, I'm wrestling and whatnot.
And I remember I threw a punch, he blocked, he hit me dead in my chest, right?
I'm like, ooh, caved me in.
I ended up wrestling him.
I was like, alright, I wrestle, I'm gonna go ahead and take a shot on him.
As soon as I took a shot on him, because that was the only thing I was good at was a double leg, right?
That man power-driving, he grabbed my hips like this, picks me up, boom, slams me.
He's like, you ready to get back in the car?
You know what I'm saying?
You ready to get in the car?
I was like, oh yeah, I'm good, bro.
I ain't trying to fight you no more.
You know what I mean?
But the reason why I bring that up is because I realize I'm almost just like this dude.
You know, I never met him.
You know what I'm saying?
Just that fighter mentality, that fighter will.
You know what I mean?
That's where I get that from.
And it's crazy that even then, at that time, I never gave him a chance, unfortunately.
And without me giving them a chance and not getting to actually know him, I end up losing him as well.
You know what I'm saying?
So I end up losing my mom and my dad.
But the thing is, I never even got a chance to even try to talk to him and get to know him because I never, like, actually went about the opportunity to talk to him and speak to him.
Because he was almost like a big brother to me because we were both living with my grandpa, which is his dad.
So I feel like it was more like a big brother relationship between me and him.
And when I lost him and I didn't get the opportunity to actually experience him like I should have, by the time I wanted that, he was already gone.
I mean, George St. Pierre was bullied when he was young, and that's what got him into martial arts, but he had a very good relationship with his parents.
I mean, like I said, your experiences alone can prepare you for fights.
And that's what makes some of the best fighters in the world.
But I feel like with everything that I went through, I guess you could say it prepared me for fighting, but it really showed me, and this is what I'm trying to get to, and I ain't trying to put all this shit together, but losing my mom and losing my dad just showed me, bro, just go for it.
You know what I'm saying?
Just like go for your dreams, man.
Go and do what you want to do.
You know what I mean?
Because at the end of the day, we only got one life.
Like my mom died at a pretty young age, like 35, 36. You know what I mean?
Dad died pretty young.
You know what I'm saying?
Almost getting to the age of 40. How did your dad die?
I mean, you've already left your mark, but you have an opportunity.
You're only 28, right?
Yeah, only 28. You have a giant future ahead of you.
Especially knowing your background now, knowing how little real formal training you've had, and the fact that you've reached this level of proficiency and skill and accomplishment.
You're in a really great spot right now, especially now dropping down to 170 pounds, which is your natural weight class, where you're not going to be at a disadvantage physically, like in the Nordean fight.
I think everything plays a part, and everything happens for a reason, so I'm glad I fought at 185. I'm glad I was able to develop my name in the middleweight division and stuff like that.
Because it's not gonna make it harder to go down to 170 and fight a couple of other, you know, ranked good names instead of starting all the way back over.
And also with this structured training and the fact that you really do have relatively little in comparison to the amount of time you've been fighting.
And now having very structured training and being in your physical prime and going down to a natural weight class, I mean, once you get past Chris Curtis, if you get past Chris Curtis...
No, no, but it's just that when I'm Italian, this is all the preparation that I've been putting in and doing and just taking the time and opportunity to actually promote the fight for myself.
You know what I mean?
Coming out here with you and speaking to you to sell this fight.
Even that, I just developed too much time and effort into this fight to lose.
I can't, you know, because everything that I want on the other side is riding up to this fight.
It ain't even like the National Dean fight.
Like, this is the fight right here.
You know what I mean?
So the last fight that I got, not on my contract, but of the year, because this will be my fourth fight that I had, you know what I'm saying, within one year, you know, and that's a big deal to me.
And I feel like I really need to show out for this one, you know, because I've never been a fighter either to lose back-to-back.
Because if I'm not learning in the gym, I'm learning from those fights.
And what you're talking about with that third round that you should have fought that way in the first round, isn't that a big part of the whole experience of having high-level competition?
Talking about Akinawa and that war, you know what I'm saying?
Think D-Day, you know?
And just talking about, like, you know, what the soldiers had went through and how they had to, you know, keep fighting and keep going up that hill doing so many obstacles and dodging bullets and all this other stuff.
Yes, sir, and it gets me pumped, you know what I'm saying?
Like, because it's just a reminder, like, bro, like, like, it's a mentality thing, you know, what you go through and then how you take the fight or how you take your training.
You can't just go through a workout and be like, all right, man, I'm going to just get this done, like, you know, like, live or die, like, I'm training for, like, war.
I still eat whatever I want to, you know, being at 185. So was he doing, like, meal prep, or he It gives you pre-portioned meals and then you just save them for the week?
Fighters been doing it for the longest, so boxers been doing it for the longest.
So we do ice plunge, we hit the sauna.
I like cryo a lot more for myself.
I hate being cold and wet, you know?
But the thing about just the regular ice plunge that you have to do, I feel like it's more mental because you can stay in there a little bit longer, you know what I mean?
I feel like just for the attitude and getting to the ice plunge and stuff like that, that's what I think it's great for.
But I feel like cryo, I like cryo a little bit more.
You know what I'm saying?
For inflammation in my arms or if my body aches, if I have anything going on, I feel like cryo will get me right real quick because I only get to be in there for like three minutes.
It is unfortunate, but I've been blessed and I've been fortunate enough to be able to fight the way I'm fighting and I've been rewarded for it.
I feel like a lot of fighters, if they put more on the line and they go out and actually try to take a little bit more risk, They could potentially, you know, be on the other side, but at the same time, it's all about winning, you know what I mean?
But unfortunately, you see some guys that win some fights, whatever, but they're not exciting, they're not fun, and you don't see where their career takes them, and they don't make a lot of money, which you see, like you said, they got another job, they still training, they still, you know, trying to find sponsors, whatever, just to pay some certain bills and stuff like that, you know, so it's that risk and reward factor, you know?
So if you're willing just to win but not be exciting, you know what I mean?
Just realize you're not going to get the money that you're really looking for.
I guess that's the harder route, I feel like, unfortunately.
And I feel like a lot of guys don't train that way.
And I've been training like that for a long time.
And I wouldn't even say I'm a hard guy to spar or nothing like that, but I'm trying to touch you, though.
You know, I mean, we see it in kickboxing, we see it in boxing, how those guys spar, now those guys spar, for real.
They be trying to knock dudes out, you know?
And I feel like some guys in the MMA culture, whatever, they just want to touch, like, man, I don't really want to hurt, you know, so we just going to touch like this and just tag each other.
But I feel like that plays a part in your fights too, you know?
And a lot of guys get touched up even more because of that in a fight instead of actually taking it serious and sparring.
And before that, though, too, like, before we even end off on that, you know, because I said I wanted to fight at 170, you asked me, like, who's some names?