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Aug. 10, 2022 - The Joe Rogan Experience
03:29:52
Joe Rogan Experience #1854 - Rick Strassman
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joe rogan
01:50:33
r
rick strassman
01:32:44
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jamie vernon
00:47
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Speaker Time Text
unidentified
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!
The Joe Rogan Experience.
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day!
rick strassman
Here we go.
joe rogan
Here we go.
What's up, Rick?
unidentified
How are you?
rick strassman
Uh, good.
It's great seeing you.
joe rogan
It's great seeing you, too.
It's been a long time.
rick strassman
Well, you know, we started...
joe rogan
Try to keep this, like, fist from your face.
That's probably the best way to...
Yeah.
There we go.
rick strassman
Yeah, I think we first met...
Some random person sent me an email, probably 2005, 2006. Wow.
And he said, oh, you know, Joe Rogan is talking about your book, and I hadn't heard of you.
joe rogan
This was before I did a podcast.
rick strassman
I think it was before the podcast.
I think you were still doing stand-up.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Yeah, and he gave me your number, I think, and I called you and you were at the airport.
And you said, hey man, I'm reading your book.
I love it.
joe rogan
Yeah, the book was fascinating because your book was, you need to adjust cameras.
Good.
Your book was fascinating to me because it was, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it was the first time that the FDA ever allowed real studies to be done on Schedule I drugs.
rick strassman
It was the first new American study in 20 years.
joe rogan
On psychedelics?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah, on any human psychedelic research.
joe rogan
First of all, why did you want to do it?
And how did you get the permission to do it?
rick strassman
Well, I wanted to do it because of my interest in chemistry and my interest in altered states, you know, my own altered states.
Like the first time I smoked marijuana, I was 18 years old, and it was a fully psychedelic experience.
There were purple clouds coming out of the speakers.
I was flying over this, you know, college town I was living in at the time.
And my friend was, too.
It was a shared hallucination on very strong hash.
joe rogan
So you felt like you were out of body?
rick strassman
No.
We were on a carpet.
joe rogan
So you both saw a city below you?
rick strassman
Yeah, the floor disappeared.
Yeah, it was the first time I smoked marijuana.
And I thought, wow, this is interesting.
joe rogan
And now hash is, the way they create hash is they take the, what is it called?
The crystals off of THC? Is that how they do it?
rick strassman
They shake out the resin from the flour.
joe rogan
Just shake it?
That's how they do it?
rick strassman
Well, there's different ways to do it.
Like, in the old country, you get really sweaty, and you just agitate a lot of pot, and the resin accumulates on your skin, and you scrape it off.
Really?
joe rogan
And that's how they make hash?
rick strassman
Well, you know...
joe rogan
That's so funky.
You're getting someone's funk along with the hash.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
That's called pre-industrial hash.
joe rogan
I was watching or was looking at something online the other day where they were talking about repurposing...
It was in Morocco.
It was Steve D'Angelo.
He was talking about how they were repurposing machines in Morocco to make hash.
How they've been doing it this way and making hash in this part of the world for, you know, who knows how many years.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
Is this it?
unidentified
Here.
rick strassman
I wonder what the machines are.
joe rogan
Yeah, this is Steve D'Angelo's hemp activist, cannabis activist.
So it looks like some kind of a press or something like that.
I don't know what that thing is.
rick strassman
Yeah, interesting.
joe rogan
I think it has something to do with automobiles.
He's going to say it right here.
unidentified
Things that can't break down.
Things that don't need electricity.
Things that can be improvised.
And just so much cleverness has been shown here today.
So much ingenuity in working with what you have.
I mean, this press is a great example of it.
Take a look here.
It's just basically an automobile jack that's been put into a frame.
Had a couple of springs put on there.
And then, you know, these iron casing boxes made.
And it works.
It works really well.
And this is the way that the hash that's smoked by most people around the world, the largest quantity of cannabis that's made anywhere, is made still by this legacy method.
And the great thing about it is this could really be done anywhere.
I think about folks in Mexico or Colombia who could take this method and repurpose it and adapt it and be making quite a very nice high quality hash.
joe rogan
That's a hash salesman if I've ever seen one.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
That dude's pushing hard.
He's like, everybody get in on this.
Come on, make some hash.
rick strassman
I'd like to buy one.
Well, I wonder if that makes hash or hash oil, if it's just being compressed like that, squeezing things out.
joe rogan
Well, it looked like he was having bricks of hash, right?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
joe rogan
So I think he's using it in that sort of that little frame, that little case, and then they're packing it in there with that car jack, which is pretty crazy.
rick strassman
Yeah, clever.
joe rogan
So the difference between hash and regular marijuana smoking is, in general, what?
Is it just that it's much stronger?
rick strassman
It's much stronger.
joe rogan
So like that kind of hallucination, that's super rare with regular marijuana, right?
unidentified
But with hash, It can happen.
rick strassman
Well, I started college as a chemistry major.
As a kid, I made fireworks and bombs and started college as a chemistry major.
I wanted to become a magnate in making fireworks, a fireworks magnate.
But everybody discouraged me.
They said, you know, you're a smart guy.
You should be a doctor.
joe rogan
That's how they tricked you into it?
rick strassman
Well, I got the last laugh, right?
Because I'm, you know, giving people psychedelics and they have inner fireworks now.
unidentified
Right.
rick strassman
Well, so after that experience, smoking hash, and, you know, my chemistry mind got piqued.
I thought, you know, like a half hour ago, I was totally normal, and right now I'm just having the weirdest experience of my life, and I wonder how that works chemically.
So I figured there must be some...
Chemical changes in the brain, and I was interested in learning what those might be.
joe rogan
So what year was this?
70, 70. So, okay, so this was like right around the time where everything got made illegal, right?
That was the big Schedule I Act, wasn't that in 1970?
They made a lot of the psychedelics illegal?
rick strassman
The Controlled Substances Act of 1970, yeah.
joe rogan
So it was right at that year when you were just getting involved.
You're like, damn it, they took the rug out from under me.
rick strassman
It didn't make any difference.
Yeah, the school I went to had a lot of psychedelics.
unidentified
Really?
rick strassman
Yeah, and I went crazy for about two years.
And then figured, you know, I think I've had enough I need to transfer, so I transferred schools, actually.
joe rogan
I've known more than one person that has lost their marbles from doing too many psychedelics.
rick strassman
I started getting unraveled.
joe rogan
It's not uncommon, right?
Do you know people that have kind of like blown fuse?
rick strassman
Oh yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
Well I get the occasional email from people who have really gone around the bend smoking too much DMT. There's people, I think, that have a tendency towards a type of paranoid schizophrenia that maybe they kind of have it under control or maybe it's mild.
You know, they just have some weird paranoias about certain things.
I've seen a few people do too many psychedelics and then now they're in fantasy land.
rick strassman
Yeah, I kind of wonder about the risk of increased accessibility.
joe rogan
I do.
rick strassman
Yeah, because, you know, you could prepare, you can screen, and still people have adverse effects.
And in the wild, in the field, I think we're just going to have a revisiting of the problems in the 60s with all of those hospitalizations and things.
joe rogan
I don't think there's any doubt.
The real question is, how many of those people were on that path already?
What is that whole process of someone becoming mentally ill?
Because I've seen it happen, but I'm not exactly sure what's causing it.
I've seen people go down and they just become different people.
rick strassman
Well, I think it's a case of people being vulnerable.
They've got a susceptibility in their genes, and they just may also be susceptible because of their lives.
They may be doing other drugs, drinking a lot in really unstable relationships.
And they also might have a tendency genetically.
Let's say one of their parents was bipolar or schizophrenic.
You know, so it's a major trauma.
I mean, it's a psychological trauma to have a huge trip, right?
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
You know, good trauma, bad trauma, but it's really a shift.
And if you're not equipped, I think it could kind of fracture a thin veneer of normality.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's almost like they're interfacing at the wrong...
They're not quite getting...
There's a reality port, and then there's a neighboring port where they're getting...
It's like they can pay their taxes, they can drive their cars, they can answer emails, but they think that there's some crazy mind control experiment at the head of...
You know, it's just one of those weird ones where people just start believing that the whole world's out to get them and the government's trying to track them down and there's a chip in my brain.
It, like, accelerates.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah, it's extreme.
joe rogan
The chip is the weird one.
I've heard multiple people tell me they have a chip in their brain.
rick strassman
Mm-hmm.
joe rogan
Or at least say it to people, like, that I'm communicating to them through a chip in their brain.
rick strassman
Mm-hmm.
Well, you know, schizophrenics are like that.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
You know, paranoid schizophrenics.
Yeah, you know, back in the day, it was, you know, radio waves or x-rays that were, you know, beaming down from space and affecting people's minds.
That was the...
joe rogan
That was the paranoid schizophrenics perspective?
rick strassman
Yeah, it was, you know, their explanation of their unusual experiences.
You know, the kinds of stories I've heard with people doing too much DMT is a kind of mania.
They're really grandiose.
They think that they've got all the answers and nobody is listening to them and it makes them mad and they end up in prison or in psychiatric hospitals.
joe rogan
I'm always fascinated with how other human beings' brains work.
Mine as well, right?
I'm fascinated by the brain.
About how it's so different after exercise.
It's so different after rest.
It's so different when, you know, you meditate or you do something like yoga, some mindfulness kind of practice.
It's like, what are most people experiencing?
And then, what does it feel like to be mentally ill?
Like, what is that person experiencing?
Like, what weird shift in the chemical balance of the mind is causing that?
And, you know, how much of it is genetic and how much of it is life experience and trauma?
It's just the way people think and look about things and look at things has always been fascinating to me because I've got to assume that everyone's dealing with different hardware or wetware or whatever you would call the brain.
Like, they work different.
They don't work the same.
rick strassman
Right.
Well, I mean, it depends on the mental illness, the disorder.
Well, one of the reasons I became a psychiatrist, besides my interest in studying psychedelics, was because I was really interested in the mind.
Schizophrenic patients were just amazing.
Because other than their crazy ideas and experiences, they're just normal people.
Right.
joe rogan
Which is wild.
And there's got to be levels to it, right?
Are there?
There's like mild, where someone just kind of like a touch schizophrenic, and there's someone who's like full-blown, you know, the aliens are hiding in my walls and they're out to get me?
rick strassman
Well, it depends on the kind of schizophrenia.
There's...
What's called chronic undifferentiated, which is kind of the burned out types that just don't move, don't talk.
joe rogan
They just veg?
rick strassman
They just veg.
And they're the paranoid schizophrenics who are a lot more active and they're hallucinating and they're in your face.
Yeah, you know, I really found it easy and fun to talk to psychotic patients.
I think that was one of the things that kind of was part of the mix of studying psychedelics.
joe rogan
Why was it easy?
rick strassman
Well, I think in my own psychedelic experiences, I might have gone crazy for an hour or two.
One time in particular, I had to be talked back down.
You know, so I could empathize.
joe rogan
You've heard Dennis McKenna's story about being with Terrence.
rick strassman
The experiment at Lacho Herrera.
joe rogan
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Can you explain what happened?
Because they ate too many mushrooms.
rick strassman
Apparently.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Can you explain, like, pharmacologically what, or psychologically, what could have happened?
rick strassman
Well, I mean, it depends on your model, right?
joe rogan
Please tell people what happened.
Like, tell people the story.
rick strassman
Yeah, I don't know the story that well.
joe rogan
You don't know it exactly?
What I believe is they found a bunch of fresh mushrooms in the Amazon, and they just started chowing, and they went crazy.
And I think he was gone for about two weeks.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
Might have been longer than that.
Might be two months.
Do you remember, Jamie?
unidentified
Yeah.
I don't know.
jamie vernon
I'll check.
joe rogan
He told the story on the podcast.
He went into detail about what it was like, the way he was processing reality.
rick strassman
It was a long stretch.
joe rogan
It was a long time when he was gone.
It wasn't like two hours.
rick strassman
No.
To the extent that he could communicate, he wanted people to leave him alone.
joe rogan
What happens?
What is going on when that happens?
Is there something that could be psychoactive for two whole weeks?
That's what's confusing to me.
What is going on where this substance, it must be gone from your body after two weeks, but somehow or another you're still feeling the effects of it.
What happened?
And what does that indicate about states of mind and how pliable they are?
rick strassman
Well, I mean, I guess the way I would look at it, which might not be the way everybody would, but I think what may have taken place is that because of all of the psilocybin that he took, he opened a portal into things out there.
And it just didn't close.
So the psilocybin was the trigger.
But after the portal was open, it was open.
joe rogan
I'm glad you said it that way, because I say it that way, too, and I know it sounds ridiculous.
Particularly to people that don't do psychedelics, opening a portal.
I've thought about that a lot.
I thought about that a lot about the DMT experience because it seems so insane and so impossible that I just can't believe that this isn't just another place.
It seems like it's not just a chemical reaction in my mind.
It seems like I'm going to another place.
rick strassman
That's how it feels.
joe rogan
That's how it feels.
But what does that mean by when I say that's how it feels?
Because I don't have any understanding of what I'm experiencing it, what I'm experiencing rather.
So I must put it in some sort of context where it makes sense to me as a person who lives on Earth, you know, sitting here right now in 2022. You know, there's all those variables that you, everything, when you look at the world, goes through all the filter of your own personal reality.
The thing about a full-blown psychedelic experience, like the DMT experience, is it doesn't seem like any of that applies anymore.
You go over there and it's like you're gone.
So I was wondering about myself, like maybe I'm trying to put it into perspective like it's another place, because places make sense to me.
And what doesn't make sense to me is just full nothingness, chaos, wild imagery and geometry and things that move to music.
It's almost like it's so hard for me to wrap my head around that I convince myself it's another dimension, but it's not.
rick strassman
Well, it could be.
I mean, it could be another dimension.
joe rogan
It could be.
rick strassman
Yeah, well, I think you need to design experiments to test if it is another dimension or not.
How could you do that?
Well, I think, well, if you consider the location of the DMT world to be outside of us in objective reality, you'd need to call upon physics, you'd need to call upon physics, advanced physics, physics.
dark matter, dark energy, parallel universes.
So I think if you could get into those spaces with machines, let's say imaging machines or cameras.
unidentified
How could you do that?
rick strassman
I don't know.
joe rogan
Could you get a computer high?
rick strassman
It's one of those ideas I've had.
joe rogan
Well, have you seen some of the new, there was some new article that was written about virtual reality being able to give people transcendent experiences, that it's similar to the effects achieved on psychedelics.
rick strassman
Right.
That's interesting, isn't it?
joe rogan
McKenna talked about that a long time ago.
He said he thinks that one day they'll get to a point where they can create something visually and it'll bring you into that place, that they'll be able to recreate it with sufficient technology.
Here's, VR is as good as psychedelics at helping people reach transcendence.
On key metrics, a VR experience elicited a response indistinguishable from subject who took medium doses of LSD or magic mushrooms.
That's wild.
If they just keep getting better at it.
If you can get someone who's been there and knows what it looks like and then is a good artist who can recreate it.
Because I've seen some DMT art before.
That's so close.
It's like, oh, wow, that's so close.
It seems like it.
Of course, Alex Gray.
Like, Alex Gray stuff.
It's like some of it is so tryptamine-like, you know?
rick strassman
Well, it's important to note that they talk about medium doses of LSD or psilocybin.
joe rogan
Right, so you get a good feeling, but you're not hallucinating.
rick strassman
Yeah, you may not really be fully tripping out.
joe rogan
What they're doing, what kind of VR experience it would be.
Like, what is the images they're showing you?
What is the sound they're playing for you that's allowing you to get to these states?
jamie vernon
The guy that made this one did it after he had a near-death experience.
Wow.
Right here, he says he fell off.
There, read that.
joe rogan
Okay, he says, I knew that the intensity of the light was related to the extent to which I inhabited my body, he recalls, yet watching it dim didn't frighten him.
From his new vantage point, Glowacky could see that the light wasn't disappearing, it was transforming, leaking out of his body into the environment around him.
This realization which he took to signify That his awareness could outlast and transcend his physical form brought a sublime sense of peace.
So he approached what he thought was death with curiosity.
What might come next?
So since his accident, an artist and computational molecular physicist has worked to recapture that transcendence.
Okay.
So he had some wild near-death experience and he's trying to recreate that with VR. So that's interesting because he's not even talking about a drug experience.
rick strassman
So he could be.
Yeah, you know, we've been studying, or there's a group at University of Michigan that's been looking at endogenous DMT that's made in the mammalian brain, and it increases during death, and especially it increases in the visual part of the brain.
joe rogan
So they know that for a fact now.
rick strassman
Yeah, they know that for a fact.
It's a 2019 study.
joe rogan
When I first met you, there wasn't nearly as much data, and I remember you were talking about how much anecdotal data that points to the idea of the pineal gland being the source of DMT, but there wasn't a mammal model.
rick strassman
Yeah, the Pioneer DMT story, it sounds pretty obscure, but it's pretty controversial.
I mean, there are some data supporting the view that the Pioneer makes DMT and other data don't.
I think you and I met at Starbucks on Ventura in, I think, 2009. I was out there for my high school reunion, and we met at Starbucks on Ventura.
I think it was in Encino.
Yeah, we were talking about DMT. Yeah, I remember that.
joe rogan
Do you think that DMT is produced all over the body?
They found it in the lungs, they found it in the liver, right?
Do you think it's just something that the body produces everywhere?
rick strassman
You know, when they first discovered DMT in mammals, people were focusing on the lung.
And they were also interested in DMT being involved in psychosis.
And there was a joke, or I don't know if you call it a joke, but an idea that schizophrenia was a lung disease because you were producing too much DMT. And they were doing studies to inhibit DMT in schizophrenics or increase it.
Oh, wow.
joe rogan
That makes sense.
rick strassman
Yeah, it does make sense.
joe rogan
That completely makes sense.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
That could be what's wrong with them.
rick strassman
It could be.
And if you could block DMT naturally or with a vaccine or something, you might have a...
joe rogan
That completely makes sense.
Because I've seen people on it that, like, fight it and panic.
And imagine if that was, like, a constant state.
You were involved.
That would look totally similar to someone being schizophrenic.
rick strassman
If it was a constant state, you'd have to come up with some ideas about what was going on.
And I think that possibly would then lead to the delusions, the crazy ideas about what's going on.
joe rogan
Yeah, that makes sense.
Wow.
rick strassman
Well, so we found DMT in the rodent pineal in 2013, the group at the University of Michigan.
So it proved or established the validity of that idea that the pineal makes DMT. But this study in 2019 that I was mentioning where DMT goes up after death in the visual cortex, they looked again for pineal DMT and they couldn't find any.
And what they believe is that the original paper described the DMT in the brain, which was snagged on the way in and out of the pineal gland.
But even more interesting, I think, than the pineal making DMT is the brain makes DMT in quite high levels, comparable to even serotonin.
joe rogan
Wow.
rick strassman
And it could be there's a DMT neurotransmitter system in the brain, just like a serotonin neurotransmitter system.
joe rogan
What is the function of the pineal gland?
rick strassman
Well, it helps regulate circadian rhythms and light sensitivity.
It helps entrain rhythms.
It helps keep everything in sync in the body.
Temperature, urinary function, blood cell formation, all those things.
joe rogan
Why do you think ancient cultures were so fascinated by it?
Like, why did they have this?
Why did they attribute this?
Sort of almost like godlike significance to it, right?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, there still is a certain pineal kind of reverence out there.
If you look at Amazon and enter pineal, there's all kinds of esoteric things that are still being published on the pineal gland.
Hmm.
Well, it's an unpaired organ.
It's the only unpaired organ in the brain.
Everything else is paired.
You have a left and right hemisphere.
But there's just one pineal in the middle of your brain.
Its location, I think, has contributed to the reverence.
It's just under the fontanelle.
And certain kinds of spiritual experiences are also felt there.
And so it was the physical corresponding position of the subjective experience.
So people thought it must be occurring in the pineal gland.
You know, I have a friend who's really into Aztec savagery history, and he told me, this is kind of grim, but he told me that the Aztecs used to burn people when they were alive to really, like, freak them out, and then take their brains out and eat their brains because of all the hormones and all the things that were going on.
joe rogan
Whoa!
rick strassman
That is heavy.
That's heavy, I know.
joe rogan
That is so heavy.
rick strassman
Yeah, you know, but they found it gave them, you know, whatever superhuman strength or religious ecstasy.
joe rogan
Isn't it fascinating that that also will kill you?
Like, that's where people get prion diseases.
They get it from eating brain and spinal tissue, right?
rick strassman
Right, right.
joe rogan
Like cannibals when they get that Jakob Kreutzfeld.
rick strassman
Jakob Kreutzfeld, yeah.
joe rogan
Thank you for pronouncing that better.
rick strassman
Well, when I was a medical student, we were always on the hunt for Jakob Kreutzfeld patients because they were rare and very interesting.
joe rogan
How many did you discover?
rick strassman
Maybe just two or three.
joe rogan
And how did they come into contact with it?
rick strassman
How did they come into contact with it?
I think they were from Africa.
joe rogan
And they ate maybe some bush meat or something, or some primate meat?
rick strassman
Sheep meat or monkey meat.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Oh, sheep meat?
You can get it from sheep meat as well?
I thought there was a thing with cannibals and there was a thing with mad cow disease, which is another one.
It's another very similar version of it because the cow's reading the cows, right?
rick strassman
Right.
It's prion disease.
joe rogan
Right.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
So here is Kruxfeldt-Jakob disease and sheep brain.
Places in origin seven out of eight patients with CJD coincide with the distribution of sheep rearing in Central and South Italy.
Oh, okay.
That actually makes sense because my uncle, Vinny, Vinny DiGiolando is about as Italian as you get.
rick strassman
That's your uncle?
joe rogan
Yes.
My uncle Vinny, who's a great guy, used to cook lamb's brains.
That was like a traditional Italian meal that you would cook.
Like, when we'd get together and have, like, family gatherings, he had, on more than one occasion, cooked lamb's brains, because I remember having it as a child.
rick strassman
Yeah, that's interesting.
Well...
Well, so the medical school that I went to was in the Bronx.
And, you know, there were a lot of immigrants in the Bronx.
There were quite a few Italians.
And, you know, lots of people from the Caribbean and from Africa.
You know, so I think it was some African patients.
joe rogan
Well, I think it's probably real common over there if it's common in Italy, you know, because eating lamb's brains is a normal thing.
I mean, my parents, I mean, they didn't eat like a lot of exotic food.
That was like a normal thing.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
My family never ate brains.
joe rogan
I've had sweetbreads before, which is the thalamus gland, right?
rick strassman
Oh, really?
joe rogan
Isn't that what it is?
rick strassman
Sweetbreads.
joe rogan
It's a gland.
It's one of the glands.
rick strassman
Oh, the thymus, maybe.
joe rogan
Thymus, that's right.
rick strassman
Yeah, it might be the thymus.
Yeah, the thymus is kind of like the spleen or like the liver.
joe rogan
Is that what it is?
rick strassman
It's quite rich in blood vessels.
joe rogan
Here it goes.
rick strassman
Thymus.
joe rogan
Cuts of meat from either the thymus gland located in the throat or the pancreas gland by the stomach.
Wow.
So sweetbreads could be either one of those things.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
Interesting.
So it's like a generic term.
In lamb, veal, pig, or beef, they have a rich, creamy texture and are often served roasted or fried.
Yeah, people eating organs, I mean, liver is really, really good for you.
Like, it makes sense that you would think brain is really, really good for you, too.
And it might be, but maybe, like, nature doesn't want people eating people's brains, so it created these prion diseases.
rick strassman
Well, you'd have to screen their brains before you ate them.
joe rogan
Yeah, but even so, is the juice worth the squeeze?
I mean, what are you getting out of eating brains?
I wonder what it's like.
rick strassman
Well, it would depend on whose brain.
joe rogan
Right.
What if you ate Einstein's brain and you actually got smarter?
If he gave you permission.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I got about a week left.
Take my brain.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, you know the frozen brain banks out there?
joe rogan
I have heard of that.
Yeah.
rick strassman
Yeah.
They flash freeze your brain right after you die.
You have to agree to it beforehand.
joe rogan
But imagine...
If you're in transcendence, you've escaped this physical reality and you've gone into the next amazing dimension where there's no deception, it's all love and energy and you're floating together in music and then some dipshit brings you back to life.
You get sucked backwards, but now you're stuck in a computer.
Can you imagine?
If that was your soul, your soul is just sucked back into that brain as soon as it's reanimated.
rick strassman
Well, I have thought about it.
joe rogan
Have you?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
What do you think that would be like?
joe rogan
Terrifying.
rick strassman
You wouldn't want to do it.
joe rogan
Well, it'd be terrifying if they couldn't get rid of it.
Like, if you couldn't go back.
Like, what if there's, like, portals, right?
Like you were saying?
And what if those portals are activated by normal human neurochemistry?
Right.
And that it's a part of dying is that these portals are open.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
But what if that fucking portal's open, you go, you transcend, and then they bring that goddamn brain back to life because you wanted to live forever.
So they take that thing that they had flask frozen, they kick that sucker back on, and now you're just an embodied brain in a fucking computer attached to a bunch of wires.
rick strassman
Well, I mean, if you're having experience, though.
joe rogan
But what kind of experience would you have?
Maybe you'd just be experiencing the fact that you're stuck in a computer.
rick strassman
Yeah, I mean, you're kind of describing the Matrix.
joe rogan
Yeah, I'm describing hell.
It's worse than the Matrix.
There's not even a body that you could detach.
In the Matrix, they detached their heads, remember?
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
They got out of it.
Oh, we got to get out of the Matrix.
You can't get out of the Matrix if you're just a brain.
rick strassman
Well, you know, one of the interesting things about endogenous DMT, and especially with its discovery in such high levels in the brain, is that it may be the endomatrix.
It could be kind of regulating everything all of the time.
joe rogan
What do you mean by that, regulating everything all the time?
rick strassman
It could be the way we interact with reality, is through endogenous DMT, which is always at a steady level.
Well, the way I began wondering about that is because, you know, what is the purpose of endogenous DMT? You know, why does the brain make DMT? Can you do a DMT test on a person's blood level?
It's pretty hard.
It's pretty hard.
It's really low in the blood.
It's like, you know, billionths of a gram per milliliter.
joe rogan
Okay, so you'd have to measure it in the actual brain itself?
rick strassman
In the brain or spinal fluid, maybe spinal fluid, but most likely brain.
joe rogan
When they start doing stuff like Neuralink, where they're going to insert wires into your brain and, you know, you're going to have an app to control your brain, to control your mood.
I mean, it seems like that would be one of the ways they would do it, right?
rick strassman
Well, you'd need to find, you know, where in the brain the main source of DMT is and then put an electrode there and keep that going.
joe rogan
Do you think it's limited to one specific area where it's developed?
Oh man, they're just beginning to unravel the whole role and location of endogenous DMT. So when they know that it's in the liver and they know that it's in the lungs, the lungs to me sound interesting because of holotropic breathing.
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
You know, because people have done breathing exercises and achieved states of altered states of consciousness.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
It kind of makes sense, doesn't it?
rick strassman
Well, yeah, but I think it's not working through the lungs because those more recent studies haven't really demonstrated DMT in lung.
joe rogan
Oh.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
I used to say it's made in lung.
Everybody used to say it's made in lung, but it seems like it's made in brain.
joe rogan
So if it's made in brain, then all the other stuff you're just getting like a trickle-down effect?
rick strassman
Well...
joe rogan
Does it go through the whole body?
rick strassman
Yeah, but it's metabolized so quickly that, you know, by the time it gets into the blood that you're drawing, the concentrations are pretty minuscule.
joe rogan
Wow.
unidentified
What a sneaky molecule.
rick strassman
Well, you have to wonder what it's doing, right?
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
What is it doing?
rick strassman
What is endogenous?
What's the function of it?
You know, there's the possibility we have a DMT neurotransmitter system like serotonin or dopamine, in which case, you know, what is it doing?
joe rogan
Wow.
So this is a really wild way to think about it because to this time, I'd never even considered that.
I always thought of it as being something that was responsible maybe for very vivid dreams, Right.
death experiences or what happens to you when you die, the idea of a portal.
But I never thought about it as being something that is regulating regular everyday reality.
rick strassman
Well, you know, one of the hallmarks of the DMT effect is that it feels more real than real.
Yeah.
And you study the function of endogenous neurotransmitters by giving drugs that modify the effect of that endogenous neurotransmitter.
So we've got the SSRI antidepressants, and they affect serotonin, although they may not all that much.
But still, that's been the working model for decades.
And so because SRIs are useful for depression and anxiety, You then can speculate that serotonin is responsible for mood or anxiety.
So the hallmark of a DMT effect is it's more real than real.
It feels more real than anything else.
So it's tempting to speculate.
joe rogan
But again, when I go back to that disembodied mind thought process of thinking like, what am I thinking when I'm over there?
Since my body doesn't seem to be there and I'm there and it seems more real than real, is that me just tricking myself into thinking that it's a different place?
rick strassman
I mean, how could you tell?
joe rogan
How could I tell, right?
rick strassman
Yeah, I mean, how would you know?
joe rogan
I have one way of looking at it that I always describe.
This is what I say to people.
I say, if there was a thing that you could do, like a door you could go through and that door would take you to another dimension where you would communicate with Some entity beyond your wildest imagination that's constantly visually changing and communicating with you telepathically and knows everything about you,
sees all your bullshit and is trying to impart some ideas that will help you with your life.
Because it's a god-like experience.
You're experiencing some sort of uber-powerful entity, some more uber-intelligent entity, something beyond any...
If we just looked at humans and thought of the evolution of human, one day we'll get to this.
We're not going to get to that.
It seems like it's so beyond the body.
It's so beyond the human monkey body.
This is what I tell people.
I go, if you would open a door and you would go there and you'd have that experience, would you do it?
And most people are like, yes, I would do it.
If I gave you a drug that gave you that experience.
You still have the exact same experience.
It's the exact same experience.
You've just decided it's not real.
And you've decided it's not real because you're putting it in this category of hallucination.
What does that even mean?
What does that even mean?
You're actually having that experience.
I don't know what it is.
I mean, I like to play devil's advocate and I like to think that maybe I'm messing with my own head and maybe I'm just like...
rick strassman
Well, through doing what?
joe rogan
Looking at it like maybe it's just my neurochemistry going bonkers and interacting with my visual cortex could produce this hallucinations.
But it doesn't feel that way.
That's why I'm trying to figure out if you're bullshitting yourself when you're over there or if you really are over there.
But what I tell people is it's the same experience.
rick strassman
Yeah, what difference does it make?
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
It's previously invisible.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
And it contains information.
joe rogan
A lot.
rick strassman
Yeah, and I think that's all you can say about it.
joe rogan
It contains information about you, right?
rick strassman
Well, it could only be happening to you.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Yeah, it's not happening to somebody else.
joe rogan
It's like it gives you advice.
rick strassman
It can.
But you, I mean, how do you judge the value of that advice?
joe rogan
Yeah.
Well, what is the advice?
One of the things that happened to me, I've talked about this ad nauseum, unfortunately, if you've heard this before, folks.
But one of my experiences, there was like a bunch of jokers, like jesters, or like jester hats, and they were giving me the finger.
They were going like this, fuck you.
And it made me realize I was taking myself too seriously.
Like instantaneously, I went, oh, I get it.
And they went like this.
They went like, don't do that.
Don't do that.
But, like, saying fuck you to me, it was so clear what they were doing.
It was so clear.
It was like a little lesson.
Like, don't do that.
rick strassman
Yeah, it's interesting.
You know, don't do that.
That's like three syllables.
And they correspond to a heartbeat.
You know, when I tripped on DMT the first time, these beings came out of this waterfall and they said, now do you see, now do you see, now do you see.
It was the same three-beat thing.
joe rogan
I love you.
They say I love you a lot.
rick strassman
I love you.
And I think it corresponds to the heartbeat because it's in sync.
You know, the vocalizations in sync with the heartbeat.
joe rogan
I love him.
Yeah.
The one time I did it and these entities were talking to me and saying, I love you 600 million, 500,000 times.
Like the way a child would say I love you with like some crazy number.
7 billion zillions.
And every time they did that, it would show a more beautiful image.
Like every image.
Like I love you 600 million, 500,000 times.
unidentified
I love you 700 zillion, 400 zillion.
joe rogan
And every time they did it, it was just this bigger and bigger experience visually to the point where I was like crying.
I was like openly weeping at the beauty of just what I was seeing.
rick strassman
It sounds beautiful.
joe rogan
It was wild, but it was that simple sort of there's like they'll say simple things to you in a way that you're not really hearing it, but you know what they're saying.
rick strassman
Well, it kind of penetrates you.
joe rogan
Yeah.
It's very weird.
rick strassman
It's very weird.
joe rogan
Very weird.
You used to not talk about your personal experiences with it.
rick strassman
I know.
I figured to hell with it.
joe rogan
Yeah, I think so.
I think it's good that you did that.
Because I remember when we first met, you were reluctant to discuss it.
I mean, you didn't really want to talk about it publicly or want people to know about it publicly.
rick strassman
Yeah, I figured that I had some legitimacy to maintain.
A few years back, I had this conversation with Dennis McKenna, you know, like about your reputation and or, you know, one's reputation.
He said, I've just given up on my reputation.
It just, you know, so.
joe rogan
Well, you talk as openly about psychedelics as Dennis.
He's the best guy to talk about it, too.
Because he's got a really interesting way of discussing things, you know, and he's had so many personal experiences and he's so smart.
And he's got this incredible vocabulary to just draw from.
And when he describes the actual impact of psilocybin and psychedelic chemicals, particularly in formation of language, He was describing the stoned ape theory.
rick strassman
The stoned ape, yeah.
joe rogan
It's incredible listening to him say it because the way he describes it, like he actually understands what psilocybin and what all these various molecules are doing to different parts of the brain and why that would facilitate the development of language and compassion and connect the tribe more.
rick strassman
Well, I mean, do you think it actually is information coming from the brain?
Or do you think, you know, that the portal is being opened up and the information is coming from above?
joe rogan
I think that's more likely.
I think the more likely is that the brain is an antenna.
You know, it's one of the things that creative people always tell you, like someone sits down and writes a song.
It just like came from the air.
They're getting things from somewhere else almost.
It's almost like you just got to get out of your own way.
You got to put enough good juice out there in the world and take enough bad out and see the world from a clear perspective, at least in these brief moments of creativity, and then things come to them.
They just...
Like, they're sitting in front of the computer and bam!
They got an idea for a book.
Like, where the fuck is all that coming from?
It seems like people always want to say it's a muse.
Like, that's the Steven Pressfield analogy.
He's got a great book about it called The War of Art.
All about, like, inviting the muse into your life and being disciplined and sitting there at the computer every day and summoning it and treating it like it's an entity.
And if you do that, it works.
This is what's crazy.
People who are disciplined and also creative, that decide, I'm going to write this book, I'm going to sit down, and I'm going to force myself every day.
Ideas come to them.
Where the fuck are they coming from?
Is it possible that the brain really is some sort of an antenna?
And that wisdom and love and all these different things, they're just all around us.
We're just confused by our monkey bodies.
rick strassman
Well, do you think we're getting that information from God?
joe rogan
If that's what you want to call it, you know, the only problem I have with the word God, and it's not really a problem, but it's a recognition, is that it's a loaded word.
rick strassman
It's a loaded word, but so is love.
joe rogan
Yes.
rick strassman
You know, so I think you just got to take the good with the bad.
joe rogan
Well, that's Alex Gray's position.
Alex Gray says we have to take it back the same way we take back love and say God all the time.
And, you know, that's what he does.
rick strassman
Yeah, and that's the reason I think it's good to use the word psychedelic instead of hallucinogen or entheogen or anything like that.
joe rogan
Entheogen's a cool word.
rick strassman
It's cool.
It assumes a lot, though.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's like people that call weed cannabis.
I like to smoke a lot of cannabis.
Like, okay, settle down, buddy.
rick strassman
Yeah, like the term entheogen, it refers to God, entheos, and it refers to en, which means that God exists within.
And it has the word gen in it, which means it's a drug which is generating something like God.
You know, so that assumes a lot.
And there are people who could benefit from psychedelic experiences who might not caught into those ideas and would avoid entheogen, but might take a psychedelic.
joe rogan
Yeah, I think psychedelic sounds manageable, entheogen sounds like you're joining a cult.
rick strassman
It's a bit cultish.
joe rogan
Well, isn't everything a bit cultish?
It seems like whatever anything, you know, really affects people in a lot of ways.
There's always someone who looks to sort of take the reins and sort of dictate what the experience is and how to do it and what the ritual should be and how you should, you know, manage it.
It gets culty.
rick strassman
It gets culty, but I think you could, you know, decultify it to some extent, if you're open-minded.
joe rogan
I think it also all practitioners...
I mean, there's a problem...
Here's a big problem with psychedelics.
One of the big problems is that we haven't really had a chance to openly discuss it in terms of, like, the effective and ineffective ways to use it, what's detrimental, what's abusive.
You know, treatment centers, like we could have all had this lined up, right?
If they didn't pass that sweeping Psychedelics Act, the controlled substances that we, right now, they're still illegal.
But they've been a part of human history forever.
If they just opened that up, We would have the ability to tell people how to use them and how not to use them.
We'd have the ability to monitor them.
And you're going to have some strays.
You're going to have some things that go wrong.
So there's going to have to be some ways to mitigate that, right?
And if this theory of people that have these psychedelic breaks, if it's a Imagine if you could find out that it really is like some sort of an overload of DMT. Like they have exogenous levels that are too high.
They can't manage it.
Reality is too fabricated.
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
Or fragmented rather.
rick strassman
Yeah.
I think, you know, if we can keep things going with psychedelic research in humans, there's a vast number of options that are going to start opening up.
For example, like a vaccine against endogenous DMT. I mean, that might be a great antipsychotic.
joe rogan
That is wild.
Do you imagine if that's really what it is?
They just got to dial it.
Or maybe some sort of technological intervention, like a neural link type thing, where I think they're going to be able to dial things in, which is going to be crazy.
You're going to be able to dial in horny.
You're going to be able to dial in happy.
I mean, 50 years from now, who knows what they're going to be able to do.
rick strassman
Well, they're breeding these things called knockout mice, which don't produce the gene, which makes X, Y, or Z. And they've developed knockout mice for the enzyme that makes DMT. Oh, wow.
So there are animals that don't produce any DMT. So you might be able at some point to put genes into people, like CRISPR, and have them stop making their own DMT. That would be a good zombie movie.
joe rogan
Everybody stops making their own DMT and just...
rick strassman
Well, you know, there's a lot of good movies I think could kind of spring from DMT. Yeah.
joe rogan
Well, if all animals are producing DMT, that's where things get really fascinating, right?
And if many plants produce DMT and at least have some of the compounds of DMT in them, like, what do you think is going on?
rick strassman
Well, do you remember that language called Esperanto?
joe rogan
Yes.
rick strassman
Yeah.
I think it's like a spiritual Esperanto.
I think that organisms that contain DMT are able to communicate with each other.
That's just an idea.
But I think you can occupy the same wavelength of communication depending on the configuration of your matter.
And it may be that that configuration is common to any organism possessing DMT. Wow.
So it might be...
Well, you know how you can communicate with trees, let's say, when you're really stoned on psychedelics or otherwise?
But that could be how.
That could be the empathy existing among organisms.
Can we take a break?
joe rogan
Yes.
rick strassman
Good.
joe rogan
We'll take a break right now.
And we're back.
So what were you saying?
rick strassman
Yeah, the first time I smoked pot, I got hooked.
It was like, you know, this is the most amazing thing in the world.
joe rogan
Did you recreate that?
Like, to have an experience like that for your first time with the hash?
rick strassman
No.
No, I never did.
joe rogan
Chase that dragon.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, you know, it was enough.
Like, I was convinced that this was going to be something I wanted to study.
And after the first time I smoked DMT, I knew that was what I was going to study.
joe rogan
Now, when you had this idea, how did you go about getting approval for a study?
rick strassman
Well, it's a very long strategy.
I came up with the idea of studying psychedelics when I was 20. I was doing developmental embryology work at Stanford in the summer between my junior and senior years.
I was studying the development of the chicken central nervous system.
unidentified
Wow.
rick strassman
In petri dishes.
It was very high tech.
It was fun.
We got two papers resulting from the research that I did that year.
And I wanted to study psychedelics, but I didn't really know how to do it.
I thought, well, maybe I'll just get some lab experience.
And I was reading all of the books for the next year's classes, which involved Freud and Buddhism and the new developments in consciousness that were coming out at the time.
And I was watching the sunset go down one evening and I flashed, I'm going to study psychedelics and combine Freud, Buddhism and psychopharmacology.
Yeah, but I was 20 years old, right?
And in the beginning, I didn't get a good reception.
Most of the medicals...
Well, I applied to 21 medical schools, and the 19 that gave me a chance to tell them why I wanted to be a doctor, they just said, forget it.
joe rogan
So you were honest, unfortunately.
rick strassman
I was out of my mind.
Yeah, so the two schools that did admit me, you know, they were either really short interviews or they steered me away from my obsession.
But I got the idea that talking about psychedelics when you're 20 years old in the early 70s was not really going to fly.
So I kept my interest to myself, but I wanted to get trained enough to be able to do that kind of work at some point in the future.
So I went to medical school and I trained in psychiatry and took a job up in Alaska.
Which was around the time that people were thinking and starting to understand winter depression, which then put emphasis on the pineal gland and melatonin.
So I thought that was an entryway into studying the pineal gland.
And the function of melatonin in humans.
joe rogan
So the pineal gland definitely produces melatonin?
rick strassman
Yeah, that's been known since the 40s.
There wasn't a lot known back then in the early 80s.
So I went back and trained some more in clinical psychopharmacology research.
To learn how to do drug studies, giving drugs, taking samples, doing questionnaires.
And so I moved to UNM, University of New Mexico, and ran that melatonin pineal study.
And I got my chops as a clinical researcher.
And melatonin was not especially psychoactive, we discovered.
It just is kind of sedating.
And it helps regulate body temperature in the middle of the night.
But it was not psychedelic.
joe rogan
Is someone's phone ringing?
You hear that?
Yeah, I think you accidentally dialed someone.
rick strassman
Oh really?
Oh yeah, Tristan.
That keeps happening.
It's just Tristan.
joe rogan
Just put the phone on the table.
rick strassman
Yeah, sorry.
joe rogan
Because I didn't know how you pocket call with a flip phone.
Did you know that you could do that, Jamie?
It was the way it was ringing.
I'm like, that's not his ring.
jamie vernon
Yeah, I heard a noise, but I didn't know what it was.
joe rogan
But it wasn't his ring.
You know, your ring is like...
jamie vernon
Right, right.
rick strassman
Yeah, I apologize.
joe rogan
That was like an outgoing ring.
Yeah.
rick strassman
Yeah, I'm sorry.
joe rogan
No, no, it's okay.
I just didn't want someone else listening to our entire conversation.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah, that's Tristan.
joe rogan
But I didn't know that it was a flip phone.
You wouldn't even be able to pick up without opening it up.
rick strassman
True.
joe rogan
That's so old school of you.
I love the fact that you have a flip phone.
I think we were all happier back then.
rick strassman
Well, this flip phone is 4G, and I had to upgrade from my 3G flip phone.
joe rogan
No, they made you these bastards.
rick strassman
They stopped serving.
Yeah, Verizon, they texted me or something and said...
joe rogan
Cut you off, son.
rick strassman
It's over.
You have to upgrade to 4G, so I got this one.
joe rogan
And now they get the 5G. You've got to get 5. The 6 is going to come out soon.
It's never going to end.
Meanwhile, you're just rocking a flip phone.
There's something about a flip phone.
Like, hanging up on someone is much more satisfying.
That's all you'd have to carry around.
I bet the battery lasts a year.
How long does the battery last on this thing?
rick strassman
I keep it charged.
Two, three days.
Not that long.
joe rogan
It's got a camera to report crime.
rick strassman
It has a camera and it texts.
joe rogan
It does text?
Does it do voice to text?
rick strassman
No.
joe rogan
If it does that, if it did that, I'd be really seriously thinking about it.
Voice to text is so easy.
You could answer text messages while you're in the car.
Just say, hey Siri, text Rick Strassman.
rick strassman
You could do that with Dragon.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
So if you have Dragon, naturally speaking, on your phone?
rick strassman
On your phone.
joe rogan
Can you get that on that?
rick strassman
Yeah, it will, you know, transcribe from the cloud.
joe rogan
On a flip phone?
rick strassman
Well, not on a flip phone.
joe rogan
Well, that's what I'm saying.
I'm saying if that had it.
Because Siri has it.
You know, you do it off, or Android Auto has it, too.
rick strassman
I spent so much time in front of a screen that just one more screen would have just driven me around the bend.
joe rogan
Well, it's driving people crazy.
They're just looking to argue with people all day.
It's like everyone's mad at everything and there's so little attention spent to your immediate life and you know what's actually going around you.
Everyone's like freaking out about things that are happening nowhere near them most of the time.
rick strassman
Yeah, well, that's one of the things I like about living in Gallup, New Mexico, is that you watch the wind.
You know, like it's pretty quiet.
And even though people have cell phones there, they're mostly interested in other things.
Church, you know, the rodeo, the upcoming parades.
joe rogan
Sounds like a good place to live.
rick strassman
It's the most patriotic small town in America.
joe rogan
Really?
rick strassman
Yeah, it was voted.
joe rogan
Wow.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, there's code talkers out there, you know, the Navajo code talkers.
joe rogan
I've heard that expression, but I don't know what that means.
rick strassman
Yeah, that's a great story.
joe rogan
Is that like from the war?
rick strassman
It's from World War II, the Pacific Arena.
You know, the Navajo speak a very difficult to learn language.
And they put a Navajo in Japan with the troops and a Navajo stateside.
And they communicated using Navajo, and the Japanese could not figure out the language that was being used.
Yeah.
And the coat talkers, the feeling goes with a lot of pride that they were responsible or played a major role in the American victory.
joe rogan
Wow!
That makes sense.
I mean, 1947, how quick is it going to be to learn Navajo?
rick strassman
Well, you may want to get one of those Navajo code talkers in here.
They're all in their 90s.
And they're these amazing guys.
They're incredibly, well, yeah, they're just amazing.
joe rogan
How many of them were there?
rick strassman
There were quite a few.
There were probably hundreds.
There's maybe like a dozen, two dozen that are still alive.
joe rogan
That seems like a story that needs more attention.
rick strassman
It's a really great story.
There's a Code Talker Museum that I think just opened in D.C. Oh, really?
Yeah, the Navajo Code Talkers.
Check them out.
So, yeah, it's a quiet place to live, a good place to read and study and write and walk around.
I'm not that current without looking at the news.
joe rogan
Good.
rick strassman
And I could just turn that off.
joe rogan
Yeah.
It's just too much for us.
I mean, I don't think we should just let corruption, chaos happen.
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying for just healthy human beings, the average healthy human being, it is too much to be tuned into all day long.
And it's so damn addictive.
rick strassman
Well, and it's not good news.
joe rogan
No.
And that's what attracts people, is the shitty news.
The good news gets a quick glance and like, what should I be mad at?
What should I be terrified of?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
What are they taking away next?
rick strassman
Well, you know, I kind of don't want to go there, but what do you think of monkeypox?
unidentified
You don't want to go there, but what do you think of monkeypox?
joe rogan
Sounds like you definitely wanted to go there.
I think it's a disease that is primarily affecting people who have unprotected, it seems like gay sex, right?
rick strassman
Seems like it.
joe rogan
Seems like it's like 90-something percent of the cases.
You know, there's some sort of a vaccine for it, apparently?
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
Is there treatment for it?
Like, do they know how to cure it?
rick strassman
Supportive treatment.
joe rogan
Just supportive treatment?
rick strassman
Fluids.
joe rogan
So they just wait until it goes away?
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
And how long does it usually take to go away?
rick strassman
I don't know.
joe rogan
Is it killing people?
rick strassman
No, it's not killing people, but they're pretty uncomfortable.
Those are apparently pretty painful sores.
joe rogan
They look gross.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, is there a bright side that's not killing people?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
It's hard to say when some fucking weird disease spreads.
rick strassman
Yeah, and I don't get weird diseases or I don't even get the news about weird diseases on this phone.
joe rogan
It's made a jump to other people.
It's not just people having unprotected gay sex.
It's people that haven't had any sex at all.
In fact, I think even kids are getting it now.
rick strassman
Extended contact, I think, can do it.
joe rogan
It's a fucking creepy disease, though.
rick strassman
Yeah, it's got a horrible name.
joe rogan
Yeah, yeah.
rick strassman
They should call it something else.
joe rogan
Too late, right?
Well, you can call it MPX. Yeah, but why didn't they just come up with a better name before they just busted out with monkeypox?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
But they do that swine flu, you know, avian virus.
It's always a way we connect it to animals.
Those zoonotic diseases.
rick strassman
Zoonotics, yeah.
joe rogan
It's creepy.
It's creepy how many of them there are out there.
rick strassman
Yeah, I know.
Well, so what keeps you going?
joe rogan
With what?
rick strassman
Your kids?
Do your kids keep you going?
joe rogan
What do you mean by keep me going?
rick strassman
You know, keep an optimistic look.
Well, not necessarily optimistic, but what gives you hope?
joe rogan
I think more than I've ever thought before that most people are really good people.
Most people try to be really good people.
They want to have a good life.
Most people.
That's most.
I think you're always going to deal with certain numbers of people that are trying to make enormous profits and doing so at the expense of either the environment or people's lives and they're going to influence politicians and they're going to make laws that benefit these people and they've done this since the beginning of time.
I mean, Eisenhower warned about it when he was leaving office.
He warned about the military industrial complex.
He warned about all that shit.
He warned about I mean, they warned about that when they built the fucking Constitution.
But I think overall, most people aren't like that.
Most people aren't trying to control people and ruin the earth for profit.
Most people are just trying to live their life.
It's a...
It's a significant impact, for sure.
It's horrible.
And it represents us overall.
It does.
Because what are people capable of at their worst?
Well, they're capable of starting unnecessary wars that are going to cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lives for profit.
We know that people have done that.
But that's not you, and that's not me, and that's not Jamie.
That's not most people.
Most people are good.
That's what I think.
So that's what keeps me going.
rick strassman
Yeah.
I think most people are good, but I think most people are easily swayed.
joe rogan
Well, when things go sideways and when people get scared, when people get scared, their anxiety gets ramped up and they look for something to be mad at and it ramps up their anger at that person.
rick strassman
Yeah, a few years ago, I was pretty sick for years in that Joseph Levy book.
And as I was recuperating, I was reading concentration camp stories, concentration camp literature.
Well, I just wanted to see how low you could go and still come out of it.
And, you know, the concentration camp culture history is pretty...
It's amazing what kind of evil everyday people can lay on other people.
It's just remarkable.
joe rogan
They just got a new guy, didn't they?
Just caught a new guard.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
And convicted him.
I mean, he's in his 90s now.
rick strassman
Yeah, those guys are really old.
Isn't that wild?
Oh, man.
joe rogan
Yeah.
But the people who are alive today participated in genocide in the 40s.
Here he is.
101-year-old ex-guard of Nazi camp is convicted by German corps.
The man identified only as Joseph S. because of Germany privacy laws.
Wow, they're even private of Nazis.
Was sentenced to five years in prison after being found guilty of being an accessory to more than 3,500 murders.
Five years in prison?
That's all?
rick strassman
Well, he may not live beyond the first couple.
unidentified
That's all they gave him?
joe rogan
Yeah, they might beat him to death in there.
rick strassman
Yeah, he doesn't want a Jewish Selma.
jamie vernon
He says it's not even clear if he would even serve the time.
rick strassman
Yeah, he may not.
joe rogan
So what is the solution?
Let him go free?
He's too old?
He's sorry?
How do you let that guy go free?
Even though he's 101 years old?
What is the answer there?
rick strassman
I think he would have to repent.
unidentified
How could you repent from that?
rick strassman
He would need to make restitution to the extent that he could to people that he's caused suffering to.
joe rogan
Oh, man.
rick strassman
What kind of restitution could he make?
joe rogan
What could he do for 3,500 people?
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, maybe he could tell the truth.
joe rogan
It just freaks me out that that's inside of the last hundred years.
It's so recent.
rick strassman
It's really recent, yeah.
joe rogan
Civilization is such a new thing.
rick strassman
Well, you know, civilization's a new thing.
Anti-Semitism isn't.
unidentified
No.
rick strassman
Anti-Semitism, boy, goes way back.
joe rogan
That's a pretty old one.
rick strassman
It's the world's oldest hatred, is the way I've heard it described.
joe rogan
You want some coffee?
rick strassman
Yeah, some coffee would be great.
joe rogan
So we were talking about the difficult road that it took.
Cheers, sir.
Thanks for being here, man.
rick strassman
Cheers, yeah, thanks.
joe rogan
It was very fun for me.
rick strassman
Very nice.
Yeah, you know...
joe rogan
We were talking about, like, you had this idea And then the long road to actually getting it passed.
We definitely don't want to skip over that.
rick strassman
Well, I spent a lot of time training.
You know, I went to medical school, my residency, fellowship, and then the two-year melatonin project was also under training fund.
So I stopped training officially when I was...
35, maybe 36. I was on training funds until that time.
Yeah, you know, so we discovered that there wasn't much psychoactivity that was associated with melatonin.
And in the meantime, I had learned about DMT, you know, that is made in the body.
It's incredibly psychedelic.
I smoked DMT. The melatonin work was kind of taking me into places that weren't all that interesting.
So I switched fields and figured, well, it's now or never.
I'm in my 30s.
I've got a good appointment at the university.
I've got the support of the research unit.
joe rogan
Did you approach them with this idea?
rick strassman
I did.
I spoke to my two bosses in psychiatry and on the research unit.
And they said, you know, get grants and publish and stay out of the newspaper.
Those were the three bits of advice I got.
They said, you know what you're doing, so just go ahead and do it and see what happens.
I got support from the university.
Well, this was 1986, 1987, and people really didn't know about psychedelics at that point.
They had become forgotten.
They weren't being taught in medical school anymore.
There was no research going on for 15, 20 years.
You know, so even after I began my study, the research unit director used to joke that people in the study room were smoking mushrooms.
So he didn't really know what I was doing.
He just wanted me to stay out of trouble and succeed.
joe rogan
How bizarre is it to you knowing that research on the mind never stopped, but research on one of the weirdest things you could do to the mind stopped?
And it didn't just stop for a little bit.
It stopped for how long?
15, 20 years?
rick strassman
20 years.
joe rogan
20 years.
That seems insane, doesn't it?
That they wouldn't want to study one of the most profound experiences that's available to human beings.
rick strassman
Well, it's important to think of some context, you know, too.
Things were just going crazy with kids taking way too much LSD in the wrong set of circumstances without any preparation.
And it was a public health emergency.
Emergency rooms and psychiatric units were being filled up.
You know, so the government had to do something, you know, from the public health point of view at the very least, which was to make it harder for kids to get their hands on psychedelics.
I think that notion that there was a desire to quash understanding what the drugs were doing to people, like in a scientific manner, I don't think that was ever the case.
I think it was more that nobody really wanted to challenge the government and submit a really good study that you can back up with safety mechanisms built into place.
Once I got my funding and my permits, which was a long process, it took two years, You know, the government was super keen on my studies.
They were very interested in what we were doing, that we were finding.
joe rogan
When you say the government, like what branch of the government?
rick strassman
Mostly the National Institute on Drug Abuse, NIDA, one of the divisions of the National Institutes of Health.
They were funding me.
Oh, this is cool, too.
The first grant I got was from the Scottish Rite Foundation for Schizophrenia Research.
It was a branch of the Masons.
joe rogan
Wow.
rick strassman
Very interesting.
And the Masons have a lot of iconography with the pineal and pine cones.
So, I mean, that was pretty creepy.
joe rogan
That is creepy.
People get freaked out by Masons.
I mean, without knowing much about it, you hear that someone's a mason, you're like, oh boy.
What does that mean?
rick strassman
Well, and they were the first funders of my research, which I thought was...
joe rogan
See, all the Illuminati people are going to go crazy now.
All the real conspiracy theory people.
Oh, he's captured by the government.
rick strassman
It was a strange coincidence.
joe rogan
That doesn't sound like a strange coincidence.
rick strassman
Well, there's a more mundane explanation.
One of my mentors, well, maybe it doesn't help clarify things.
It may make it more complex.
One of my mentors was a psychiatrist at UCLA, a fellow named Dr. Friedman.
And we got to know each other back in the day.
In the 50s, actually, he was giving LSD at the NIH. And I met him, and he supported my work.
And he was on a committee, the granting committee for the Scottish Rite Foundation for Schizophrenia Research.
And he said, if you could submit a grant to them that focuses on DMT and schizophrenia, you'll most likely get funded.
And I did.
So it was at least ostensibly from the schizophrenia point of view.
But still, the source of the money and the interest came from the Masons.
joe rogan
That's wild.
That's another subject that I wanted to talk to you about.
There's certain religions that had an exemption for using DMT. And there's Christian religions in America, right?
There's like two different sects of Christianity that are allowed to take like an ayahuasca drink.
How did that happen?
rick strassman
There's a group called the UDV. And one called the Santo Dami.
They're both based from Brazil.
They both originated there.
joe rogan
And so these folks, they went and they got religious exemption?
How did that go down?
rick strassman
Well, let me think this through.
Well...
In the early 90s, when I just got my DMT study off the ground, I met the leader of the UDV, an Anglo fellow, Jeffrey Bronfman from Santa Fe, was the North American representative of the UDV. And he asked me about what their strategy ought to be to be able to drink ayahuasca.
So I advised, you know, taking care of all your permits, you know, kind of the way I did it.
Just, you know, fill out the forms and, you know, talk to the regulators.
And after a while, you know, if you stick with it, chances are good they'll give you permission.
Or you could wait to be caught and then, you know, take it to court, in which case you would at least be, you know, getting the experiences underway.
The church would be established.
You would have a track record of safety.
joe rogan
Yeah, but that sounds like a terrible idea.
I would definitely say try to get the opinions in.
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
Or rather, permissions in.
rick strassman
Well, so that's what happened.
They were discovered importing ayahuasca, which they had been doing for, I don't know, three, four years or so.
Yeah, and so they took it to court.
joe rogan
So they got caught with it.
rick strassman
They got caught with it.
You know, you have to think about it, though, because it may have taken them years.
joe rogan
Right, I get it.
That makes sense.
rick strassman
And they may never have gotten approval.
joe rogan
So is it possible for them to grow the stuff they need to make ayahuasca here?
Do those things have to be grown in other climates, or can they be grown here?
rick strassman
You can grow the plants in either Hawaii or Florida.
joe rogan
Right.
I knew people grew them in Hawaii.
I didn't know Florida.
Interesting.
So if Florida opened it up, they could have ayahuasca plantations.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
And just, I mean, that tropical environment down there.
rick strassman
Well, I mean, you'd have to work out the regulatory and the organizational structure, kind of like they're doing in Oregon, which seems like it's kind of halting.
Are you familiar with what they're doing in Oregon?
joe rogan
In Oregon, they seem to be decriminalizing basically everything.
rick strassman
Right.
Well, they've legalized psilocybin, which means that the state's getting involved in a board and certifying locations.
joe rogan
So they legalized it for recreational use or medicinal use?
Like, do you have to have a prescription?
rick strassman
No, no.
They're going to be setting up psilocybin centers.
joe rogan
Holy shit.
rick strassman
Dispensers.
joe rogan
Wow.
That's wild.
rick strassman
And you could be a certified psilocybin sitter.
joe rogan
I wish Portland wasn't such a hot mess.
Portland's such a hot mess.
The city's such a hot mess.
rick strassman
Well, the smaller counties in Oregon have got the right to ban psilocybin, and they're doing it.
So fewer and fewer counties seem interested.
joe rogan
Interesting.
So it's passed statewide.
You're going to have to find some county that's going to give you the green light, and that's where people are going to start growing their stuff.
It's going to come with a lot of problems.
One of the problems that happened with marijuana was the early days, banks didn't want to get involved.
They wouldn't allow people to use credit cards, because they didn't want to be connected to that.
So people had giant wads of cash, and they were hiring these Special Forces guys to take their cash- Smelling from pot.
Yeah, stinking of pot.
You know, the whole thing was really sketchy, because everybody knew you're leaving that spot with bags of cash.
Like, everyone knew you have cash there, and so you have to really worry about getting robbed and killed.
rick strassman
Yeah, it's interesting to follow what's happening in Oregon.
It's supposed to all be in place by January 1st.
joe rogan
That's gonna be wild.
It's gonna be wild.
rick strassman
I think there'll be some problems.
joe rogan
Yeah, well, for sure.
That's the problem if it happens, you know, if it happens federally.
If some wacky president decided to let all the psychedelics free, We're gonna have a lot of people lose their fucking marbles.
The question is, aren't we already?
And how much of a difference would it be?
And would it be a difference?
Or would those people have already lost their marbles?
There's a lot of questions, I guess.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, you have to educate people.
Right.
In the best way to trip.
joe rogan
And they maybe should have some research on how to help people that have had bad trips.
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
Maybe there's like a good cocktail of medications to fucking bring you back to Earth.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah, like if it's a bad experience, you know, traumatic.
It's like PTSD in a way.
joe rogan
Some people have really bad ones, and they freak out, and they don't know what to do, and then they get elevated anxiety, and it sort of cascades.
rick strassman
You've seen that?
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Yeah, I think we're going to be seeing more of that.
joe rogan
Yeah, look, I had one DMT trip that was, I think we did it three times in an afternoon, and I had, the last one was really weird.
Really, really powerful.
And I had like a very slippery grip on reality for like two weeks after that.
rick strassman
That can happen.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's how I describe it.
It's like slippery.
Like I was doing everything normal.
I was driving to work normal.
I was doing it, but everything felt slippery.
Like everything can go wrong at any second.
rick strassman
Slippery is a good term.
Well, you know, that happened to me after my first, you know, 5-methoxy DMT experience for about, you know, three days.
I just didn't really feel like I was in my body, that I was really kind of interacting with things in a coherent manner.
joe rogan
That stuff is interesting.
I really want to know your thoughts on that stuff because that's a weird experience in that it seems like you just go away.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
You do go away.
And even though people seem to be talking it up, I'm not sure if going away is that good a thing.
joe rogan
I want to explain that to people who don't know what we're talking about.
When I mean go away, I mean it feels like you're dying.
And then it also feels like you don't exist anymore, so you don't have any thoughts while you're over there.
It's the weirdest experience.
It's all white.
rick strassman
It's just this whiteout.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's like this full white out, but it's somehow cleansing.
Like you come out of there like lighter.
rick strassman
It's like being in the center of the sun.
joe rogan
Yeah, there's something about when you come back, you feel like everything's going to be fine.
It's so wild in the beginning.
It's so terrifying when you first enter into it.
But then when you come out of it, you're so happy you did it.
rick strassman
Well, I think that's a concern, is that you feel so good after you've come through and you want to replicate that.
I've seen people use 5-methoxy addictively, habitually.
They just want to get back to that state over and over.
And you don't really see that very often with DMT. DMT itself has so much information.
joe rogan
There's a dude I knew who he went so many times.
He was doing it so often that he said the entity started to tell him to stop coming.
He was doing DMT like every day.
I'm like, hey man.
unidentified
That seems like a lot.
rick strassman
Well, do you think it was the entities telling him to stop it or that it was just his mind saying, you know, you're killing me.
I mean, let's take a break.
joe rogan
Yeah, I mean, or what are those things?
What is your mind, right?
Is your mind an individual thing or is it something that constantly changes depending upon what it interacts with?
And are those entities that are telling you stop doing it, do they live in your mind?
Does your mind live where they live?
rick strassman
Yes, I think so.
joe rogan
Yes.
But either way, this whole thing of he was having a real problem with it.
The experience was so profound, he just wanted to recreate it over and over and over and over again.
rick strassman
You know, when I get emails from people who start sounding like they're just about ready to, like, lose it because they're smoking so much DMT, and, you know, they want my advice and, you know, support and, you know, confirmation of their funny ideas, and I just say stop smoking DMT. That's what I'd recommend.
joe rogan
You don't need to do it that often.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
That's the one slippery one that I've had.
I've had it since then.
But that one slippery one, that was a little bit of a wake-up call.
Because, like, hey, cocky fuckface, you think you've got a great grip on reality?
Why don't you just, like, enter into other dimensions for a couple hours and then come back and now you feel weird about everything.
Like, for two weeks.
It took two weeks to feel normal driving.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
Well, did you get help?
joe rogan
Nope.
Nope.
Just worked out.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
I worked out.
I laid in the float tank quite a bit.
I mean, it wasn't scary, but it was next door neighbors to scary.
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
It was like, if I have to go through life with this elevated level of weirdness and anxiety forever, like this is life now, I'm like, ooh, I don't like this.
It was almost like being too high.
You know that feeling when you, I'm a little too high, I don't like this.
rick strassman
Right, yeah.
Well, so it was a close call.
joe rogan
It was a close call, I think.
I think it's a wake-up call.
I don't think, I think these, like, you know, Alex Berenson wrote that book, Tell Your Children.
Do you know about that book?
rick strassman
I don't think so.
joe rogan
Alex Berenson used to write for the New York Times.
And he wrote a book making a connection between people smoking too much pot and having these psychotic breaks and these schizophrenic breaks.
Like, what is going on?
What is happening to people?
Like, why is that happening?
And is it happening proportionate to the population where you would normally get schizophrenics?
Or is it elevated?
Like, what's happening?
rick strassman
Well, if you're kind of prone to schizophrenia, it seems pretty clear the more pot you smoke, the more likely you'll have a full break.
joe rogan
Yes.
And see, this is something that we should have known, right?
This is something that we should – it's just like people who have alcoholism in their family.
Maybe they shouldn't drink.
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
You know what I mean?
We know people like that, that, you know, dad was an alcoholic.
They can't have a drink.
This is a thing that really is unfortunate because they could have studied this and had answers and we could be able to tell people how to do these things.
rick strassman
Well, I think we should learn from that experience by making sure we're clear about adverse reactions to psychedelics.
joe rogan
Yeah.
The same way we are about adverse reactions to anything.
rick strassman
To anything.
Yeah.
Well, you're talking about that bad trip that just lingered.
I had a bad trip when I was in college, an LSD experience, and I didn't take anything for 12 years after that.
joe rogan
Well, mine wasn't a bad trip.
That's what was interesting.
The trip was magnificent.
The trip was spectacular.
The trip was incredible.
The visuals were beyond my imagination and the way it affected me.
It was like a real, like a peeling of layers of bullshit of who I am.
But the experience afterwards, it's like I didn't go back to normal.
It was so wild.
Whatever it was was so wild that everyday reality just seemed like, what is this?
Is this a trick?
Is this a trick?
Is reality fake?
It seemed real weird.
But no one would have noticed.
I talked normal.
I did normal stuff.
I didn't take days off and sit at home and stare at the walls.
I just did normal stuff until it all came back to normal.
rick strassman
Did you tell your friends or family?
joe rogan
I think I told a couple people.
I think I told people that do DMT. I definitely know I told Duncan.
I definitely know I told Duncan.
We talked about it.
And, you know, that was the thing.
It really wasn't bad, but it wasn't good.
And it let me know that, hey, what if it's way worse than that?
rick strassman
Well, yeah, you know, what if you're that way for the rest of your life?
joe rogan
Yeah, forever.
Yeah, what if you, like, we know those stories.
The guys who did too much acid never came back.
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
Those are classic stories.
rick strassman
And they're true, yeah.
Well, you know, that's why it's good to have a therapist, too.
Like, I was fortunate in that I was in psychoanalysis at the time.
And so I could, you know, talk to my analyst about how horrible that 5-MeO...
Or, you know, it was a bad experience as opposed to yours, but it was quite unsettling.
And it really helped to have somebody to get it off my chest with.
joe rogan
Did you feel like you were dead?
Did you feel like when you did it, like you were gone?
rick strassman
No, I was stuck in this evil good loop.
You know, like...
Good versus evil, and which was I going to choose?
joe rogan
Oh boy!
rick strassman
Yeah, and I couldn't decide, and I asked the sitter, you know, what should I choose?
And they said something like, there's no need to choose, or they're both the same, or...
Yeah, something unsatisfactory.
joe rogan
Oh, God.
rick strassman
And I was pretty rattled for a couple of days after that.
joe rogan
So is this when you were coming out of it?
Like, did you have a time of the trip where you were just gone?
Where it was just white fuzz noise?
unidentified
No.
rick strassman
No, actually, no.
joe rogan
This was different?
rick strassman
Yeah, it was different.
It had more content.
joe rogan
How many times did you do 5MEO? Oh, gosh.
rick strassman
Once pure, the pure drug, and once the toad.
Yeah, you know, my experience with the DMT compounds isn't extensive.
joe rogan
But the experiences with the fiber, what I was getting at was, are they uniform?
rick strassman
They're mostly that white light.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Yeah, that seems to be consistent.
joe rogan
But this was a different one?
rick strassman
It was different, yeah.
joe rogan
Was this one from the toad?
rick strassman
No, no, it was the synthetic.
Yeah, I could tell you.
I was looking up from the bottom of a silo, and there was a catwalk that went around and around the inside of the silo.
And there were all these dwarves, like Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, with the long sleeves and the long noses and the hood.
And there were like countless, just circulating.
And they were up to no good.
And at the same time, they were beckoning.
And I just didn't know what to do.
So that's when I opened my eyes and said to my friend, you know, what should I choose?
unidentified
I wonder if they gave you like a mixture.
joe rogan
Has anybody given someone a mixture of 5-MEO and NNDMT? Yeah, yeah, that's pretty, well, I wouldn't say common, but I think it's called Jaguar.
Oh, I like the name.
rick strassman
Yeah, Ralph Metzner used to provide that to people.
joe rogan
Because I was thinking, like, you're saying something that sounds awfully like the visual DMT experience.
rick strassman
I know, I know.
It's interesting.
Yeah, because most people have the white light.
joe rogan
Yeah, I wonder if you would have gotten like a combo cocktail, like a, you know, what is that?
Arnold Palmer.
rick strassman
An Arnold Palmer.
joe rogan
You know?
rick strassman
Shirley Temple.
joe rogan
Well, the Arnold Palmer is like a little bit of iced tea and a little bit of lemonade.
You know, I think that's what you got.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, I don't know.
I'm just guessing.
I've just never heard of anybody having such very distinct visuals before like that.
Yeah, my first entity contact was on 5MEO. Now, when you say entity, what was it, the first one?
rick strassman
Well, it was these dwarves, these countless dwarves.
joe rogan
Oh, that was them.
That was the first entity contact.
And what did you think you were seeing when you were seeing them?
rick strassman
I had no idea.
I figured, you know, I was under the influence and that's what I was seeing.
joe rogan
You just were going with it.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Observing.
Well, if you're in it, you can't do anything.
I mean, you can only observe, partake.
joe rogan
Do you think that when you're tripping like that, are you entering into a world that already exists or are you changing something?
rick strassman
Well, I think you're changing your ability to perceive things that are normally invisible.
joe rogan
So they're there all the time?
rick strassman
They're there all the time, either in your mind, unconscious, or out there in the ether.
And that's what we were talking about earlier, that it's really hard to tell.
joe rogan
Right.
rick strassman
But the important thing, though, I believe, is that it doesn't make a lot of difference, right now anyway, because we can't really design experiments to determine that.
The important thing is the information that you're getting out of it.
You know, what's it good for?
Are you able to extract any valuable information for yourself or for other people?
joe rogan
Now, when you first started doing these studies, how did you devise a protocol?
How did you figure out what the dosage was going to be for these people?
How many times they were going to do it?
Did you have, like, test subjects?
Or, I mean, pre-test subjects?
Like, how did you devise a protocol?
rick strassman
Well, the main person who was advising me was a pediatric neuroendocrinologist.
Whoa.
A pediatric neuroendocrinologist.
And the research I had done as a fellow and with the melatonin work was what you would call clinical neuroendocrinology.
So, in a way, my study with DMT was using DMT as a neuroendocrinological probe.
It was a psychopharmacology study.
joe rogan
Oh, wow.
rick strassman
Yeah, you know, so it's what's called dose response work.
You give small doses, medium doses, and you give big doses.
You need to characterize as many of the effects as you can.
joe rogan
Now, you did it intravenously, which I thought was really fascinating because it extends the experience, right?
rick strassman
Well, the majority of previous studies gave it intramuscularly.
Really?
Yeah, the Hungarian studies, Budapest, Steven Jara.
joe rogan
What is that like?
rick strassman
Well, good question.
And I did bring in someone to receive a test dose of the intramuscular.
joe rogan
Did you have a hard time finding somebody for that?
rick strassman
Man, my friends were lining up.
joe rogan
Of course.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Of course.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, so Terrence McKenna and I developed the idea behind the DMT study in the first place, like a couple of years before it actually got approved.
I didn't know what approach to take.
And I went over to his place one day.
This was the summer of 88. And we just, you know, brainstormed the entire afternoon up in his loft.
And we decided, or what we concluded was that we would, or, you know, that I would apply for funding from the War on Drugs.
That would be the best way to study DMT, is to get money from the war on drugs.
joe rogan
How did you phrase it?
rick strassman
Well, instead of saying that DMT is an amazingly cool drug...
We said DMT is an amazingly weird drug or potentially dangerous, might be involved in psychosis.
People are abusing it.
So the things that we proposed were coming at it from the perspective of public health.
As opposed to spirituality or psychotherapy.
The more we understand about DMT, the more we'll understand about LSD, maybe more about psychosis and schizophrenia.
So it was phrased or looked at as a series of experiments with public health implications.
joe rogan
There's something seriously cool about getting the first psychedelic studies funded by the war on drugs.
rick strassman
I mean, it was an amazing stretch there.
joe rogan
It must have felt amazing that you pulled it off.
rick strassman
Well, my volunteers and I every so often would look at each other and say, this isn't really happening, is it?
Yeah, so, yeah, it was unbelievable.
joe rogan
That's pretty unbelievable, pretty awesome.
rick strassman
It was just occurring in complete isolation, too, at the University Hospital in Albuquerque in the early 90s.
I mean, nobody knew what we were doing.
joe rogan
So, how did you devise the dosage?
Like, when you're doing it intravenously, how did you figure out how much to give people to have the maximum experience?
What did you do?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
Good question.
Let me pee again, yeah.
joe rogan
We'll be right back, ladies and gentlemen, with the answer to that question.
We left off with how you figured out what dose to give people to have this experience.
rick strassman
Well, the one person that we gave intramuscular DMT to described it as much slower than the smoked and wasn't as intense.
So because we wanted to replicate the smoked experience, we then switched to IV. So the standard intramuscular dose is a milligram per kilogram.
joe rogan
Was there a reason why you didn't just have the people smoke it?
rick strassman
Smoking would have been complicated.
It is hard to get as much DMT into your lungs as you need for a breakthrough through smoking.
joe rogan
Right.
rick strassman
From coughing or the room starts breaking up and you're kind of losing your orientation.
There'd be combustion products that would be, you know, not DMT, that people were smoking.
And we didn't really want to expose people's lungs to chemicals unless we needed to.
So we switched to the IV. You know, the IV method of giving any drug is the fastest, even faster than smoking or snorting.
joe rogan
Smoking?
Oh, I didn't know you can snort it.
Do people snort it?
rick strassman
People, well, I mean...
joe rogan
Of course they do.
Why would I even ask that?
rick strassman
Yeah, and you can snort other drugs, you know, like any kind of drug, for example.
I've never just never thought anybody would snort DMT. Well, if you make a water-soluble salt of DMT, you can snort it.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
rick strassman
Yeah, you smoke the freebase.
joe rogan
But you can't crush the freebase up and snort that, could you?
rick strassman
I don't think it would work.
It might.
But when people do snort it, it's the water-soluble form.
joe rogan
What is that stuff that they do where it's like a snuff that they blow up each other's noses and it does have psychedelic chemicals in it?
They think it might even have DMT in it, right?
rick strassman
Right.
Yeah, the Amazonian psychedelic snuffs.
Yeah.
Yeah, they contain DMT, 5-methoxy, DMT, bufotanine, and some obscure tryptamines.
joe rogan
And it's supposed to be horrendous, right?
You shoot it up the nose and it's just disgusting.
rick strassman
Yeah, you've seen those black and white pictures that they took in the Amazon in the 40s and 50s.
joe rogan
Could you imagine getting a blast that stuff up your nose?
rick strassman
Not really.
joe rogan
But if that was the only way you could get to reach the spirit realm, you'd do it.
rick strassman
Right, right.
I mean, people do a lot of extreme things to attain spiritual experience.
joe rogan
How much have you paid attention to Graham Hancock's work on the Amazon, how they're rediscovering these civilizations, and also the use of, there's a bunch of different researchers using LIDAR down there.
Right.
We're going over the jungle and they're finding grids and the cities that used to exist down there.
And Graham thinks that there might have been cities with like millions of people in them that existed before the Europeans came through and gave them all smallpox.
rick strassman
Well, yeah, you know, Graham's been really important in making people aware of the role of psychedelics, you know, across all cultures, across time.
joe rogan
I got Graham on the podcast.
I got him high.
He hadn't been high in like two years.
rick strassman
Yeah, he told me that.
He, you know, blames you now.
joe rogan
I would go, just don't go so hard.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
He's going too hard.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
He was really proud of himself and then he got stoned in your show.
joe rogan
But then he got stoned and he was just on fire.
The moment he got stoned, just breaking down how...
I think essentially we were talking about the dating of civilizations, about how arrogant people are with their initial assertions of what the origins or the timeline of civilization is.
He's like, the timeline of civilization is still a mystery.
And they're pushing it further and further back with every discovery.
And they keep finding stuff that pushes it further back, further back, further back.
They're finding complex stone structures that are 14,000 years old.
12,000 years old.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
Like Gobekli Tepe, 12,000 years old.
That's a long fucking time ago.
And they keep finding all this evidence of human beings being older than we thought they were.
You know, I think that this Younger Dryas impact theory is probably the best theory when it comes to explaining why we're so wacky.
I think we had once achieved some very high level of sophistication.
You know, I think that's what explains ancient Egypt.
That's what explains some spectacular construction methods that were from thousands and thousands of years ago.
And then we got wiped out almost to the point of extinction and then we rebuilt back again with a bunch of shit that we didn't understand and a bunch of people that came from really smart people but had been living like fucking barbarians for the last couple hundred years.
That's what I think happened.
rick strassman
Yeah.
I wonder, well, are you familiar with Julian James and the Bicameral Mind?
joe rogan
I've heard that name and I've heard of that book.
rick strassman
Yeah.
So, you know, James believed that up until a certain point that it was a common phenomenon for people to hear a spoken voice.
joe rogan
That's right.
rick strassman
And that's where people got their information was from the spoken voice.
joe rogan
Could you imagine if that's really how people used to interact with God?
That God used to just talk to you?
rick strassman
Well, yeah, yeah.
His theory proposes that the prophets were the transition between the bicameral mind being common and it kind of dying off.
There's no hard evidence of the brain communicating differently back then because it disappears quickly, soft tissue.
joe rogan
What do you think of Terence McKenna and Dennis McKenna's theory about monkeys eating psilocybin?
Does that make sense to you?
rick strassman
It makes sense, yeah.
joe rogan
If you don't, tell people what the idea is that we The grasslands, the rainforest receded into grasslands, and the monkeys came down.
They started experimenting with new food, and they found psilocybin, right?
rick strassman
Right.
Yeah, but, well, you know, these compounds, you know, psychedelics stimulate the growth of new neurons, neurogenesis, and also stimulate the complexity and number of connections among neurons.
That's called neuroplasticity.
So it could be that there were neuroplastic effects in the monkeys that were using psilocybin.
That would be an explanation of how there would be an evolution of consciousness which would be passed on and continue.
joe rogan
You know, one of the big fun theories that people like to talk about when it comes to human beings, people that are like alien enthusiasts, they like to say, well, human beings are the product of some sort of accelerated evolution.
So the aliens came down here and they ran experiments with these primal people and converted them into modern people.
Yeah, we can get some of that.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Thank you.
But the question is...
Maybe that's what mushrooms are.
Maybe that's what that means.
You're consuming something that gives you this entirely early experience.
It's causing neuroplasticity.
It's causing neurogenesis.
It's making you more creative.
It makes you have a better ability to see motion, right?
Doesn't it aid in visual acuity?
rick strassman
Acuity, it does.
Yeah, yeah.
And your sensitivity.
joe rogan
And the ability to detect parallel lines moving.
There was someone who did that study.
There was a straight scientist who did this study where they gave people psilocybin and they showed them parallel lines as they were moving off parallel, that the people on psilocybin could see it way quicker.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, the question is whether those traits can be passed on to the next generation.
That's what's called Lamarckian transmission.
It's called epigenetics now.
Activation of certain genes can be passed on hereditarily.
So it could be that the increase in neuroplasticity and neurogenesis is passed on.
joe rogan
Well, something happened to people, right?
I mean, we'll keep you off camera.
rick strassman
Yeah, keep me off camera.
joe rogan
Keep them off camera, Jamie.
Something happened to people because the human brain doubled over a period of a couple million years, which coincides with the timeline that McKenna proposed that these rainforests were starting to recede during that same time period, right?
rick strassman
Yeah, you kind of have to wonder what the DMT system in the brain was doing at that time, too.
I wonder if that was a time of rapid growth of the DMT neurotransmitter system.
joe rogan
Yeah, and what was the natural state of DMT back then, too?
I mean, one of the things that I would imagine is that people who have to live like a very You know, you're out there in tents.
You're trying to protect your children from predators.
You're living this, like, very tuned in to everything around your life.
It's probably a very, very different experience in terms of just how they perceive the world itself, how they perceive reality.
Because one of the things that kind of has to happen as things get safer and easier, you get less of a concern and a fear of danger.
And so your ability to detect danger kind of atrophies.
Whereas someone who lived at the beginning of human civilization would have been like just a super intelligent animal almost.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
You know, like just tuned into everything.
Just like animals, like if you snap a twig near a deer and their heads spin around, you know, bear smells you from fucking three football fields away.
That's normal for them.
We maybe had like a better sense of the world around us.
I mean, think about how bad our senses are.
Our noses are terrible.
They barely do anything.
Like maybe they were like really good at one point in time and we just didn't need them anymore and it atrophied.
You know, if you had a wolf that was near you and you could smell it, You know, that would be a very good thing to stay alive.
Well, they can smell you.
I bet you used to be able to smell them, but we've been living in houses for so long.
rick strassman
Uh-huh.
Well, the brain, the olfactory centers in the brain are the oldest.
You know, perceptual centers in the brain.
unidentified
Really?
rick strassman
Yeah, so obviously...
joe rogan
They can smell before they can see?
unidentified
Uh...
joe rogan
If they're the oldest?
rick strassman
Well, if you smell things, it'll stimulate memories.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
You know, so that's not the case with other senses.
There's a connection between the olfactory sense and memory, which is the strongest among the senses, which indicates that our sense of smell once was much more important.
joe rogan
Well, it had to be.
If we didn't have doors...
rick strassman
It would have to be.
joe rogan
It'd have to be.
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
You'd have to be able to smell things, hear things.
You'd have to be able to feel the vibrations on the ground of something running at you so you can get a jump at it.
I mean, that environment, if you introduced psilocybin to that environment, And that's what created human beings.
That is a fascinating theory.
And the thing is, we know psilocybin is real, and we know its effects are profound.
And so to dismiss it as being what happened, I don't think that's wise.
I think there's a problem with what mushrooms are.
It's like people think they're so silly.
I'm tripping on mushrooms.
You're doing something you shouldn't be doing.
Like, oh, look at Todd.
He's over there on mushrooms.
But what it probably is is some kind of a chemical gateway to some either state of mind or some other dimension.
And if you gave that to some savage proto-hominid that was just living naked, running away from jaguars all the time, and this thing starts tripping and starts figuring out tools and starts figuring out how to make sounds to indicate different animals.
rick strassman
Well, you know, it's in a direction.
The effect of the psilocybin is in a direction.
So that's an interesting thing to consider.
joe rogan
In a direction?
In what way?
What do you mean by that?
rick strassman
Well, towards increasing civilization, towards language, towards love as opposed to hatred, let's say.
joe rogan
Yeah, it would help them form tribes, especially if they were all doing it together.
rick strassman
Well, so you'd then argue for an evolutionary advantage for hominids that were taking psilocybin.
It gave them an advantage.
joe rogan
At what point in time do you think people forgot that psilocybin was beneficial?
And what were the steps to get people to not have access to that information anymore?
Not be aware of how long, for an enormous history, people were consuming them.
rick strassman
How long?
Well, I mean, there's turf.
You know, so look at the major religious institutions, and they're stamping out psychedelic use in the indigenous world.
If you could stamp out the estates, then you kind of have the hegemony over those states or you can promise them if you pray or if you're good or if you do various things.
You know, so there's politics involved competing groups, those that used mushrooms probably and those who didn't.
There would probably be some climactic and environmental ones too that the range of the mushrooms was shrinking.
joe rogan
Hmm, right like some sort of climate change and they forced out of areas that used to grow them all the time So they stopped using them and they start taking alcohol and other things It's just since we know so much about them today in You know like in comparison to what people knew in the 50s and 60s like publicly know so much more about them So there's so much real scientific data out there.
There's so many real Real intelligent people who are enthusiasts of them that can kind of explain the benefits of it.
It's just amazing that it's taken so long to just get one state to make it legal.
rick strassman
Well, you know, what would you like to see the future of psychedelic use?
Would you want everybody to be tripping in the best of all possible worlds like Tim Leary, Ken Kesey, just everybody?
joe rogan
Those guys went too hard.
I think they scared a lot of people.
I think those guys, they were so tuned, you know, tune out or drop out.
They were so culty, you know, and they had a wild bus and they threw wild parties.
I think a lot of people got freaked out by civilization eroding before their eyes and their kids turning into useless hippies.
Like, there was a lot of fear that was attached to that.
I think it would be different today if you talked about psychedelics because way more people have had psychedelic experiences, I think, per capita.
I know of many, many people who are very happy microdosing psilocybin.
They just take a little bit, take a little bit here and there, and they really enjoy doing it that way.
rick strassman
You know, I wonder, I mean, is there some yearning for utopia?
joe rogan
There is always going to be that, right?
But there's also going to be an understanding that whatever that stuff does, it seems to encourage you to behave and think in a way that's better for everybody.
It seems to want to encourage you to think kindly, to be nicer to people, to connect more with the earth.
It tunes you into a very, for lack of a better term, positive frequency.
But then again, the Vikings took them and they slaughtered people.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's, you know, I think they...
joe rogan
There's that too.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
You don't want to gild the lily.
joe rogan
You don't want to gild the lily?
What does that mean?
rick strassman
Gild the lily.
Make something beautiful even more beautiful.
joe rogan
Oh.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, I don't think they should be illegal, for sure.
I do think that to just randomly give them out to everybody is irresponsible.
I think there are a lot of people out there that are having a really hard time with regular reality and that something as profound as a psychedelic experience could fucking blow a fuse.
But I don't want to be the person that can tell a person what they can and can't do.
I think that's part of the problem with it all.
Is that they can tell you, you can't try something.
Or me, I can't try something.
And they're just like us.
They're just a person.
They're just a person of similar age.
And they're going to tell you, you can't do something.
I'm like, you don't even know.
You've never even done it.
This is a dumb conversation we're having.
And you're going to make it so that I can get locked in a cage because I want to do something that you haven't done.
rick strassman
Well, the chairman of our ethics board at the university, when I presented these studies to him for the informed consent and what you would be doing with people, you know, I bumped into him one day and said, man, I'm so grateful for how open-minded you are about this.
And he said, I'm not God.
We're not playing God.
I thought that was a great line.
He was a libertarian, actually.
And he figured people should do what they want to do and just give informed consent, educate people, let them know what they're getting into and let them decide.
joe rogan
I think it's way more dangerous to have people uneducated about the risks of certain drugs and the importance of understanding the dosage and the purity than it is to tell people not to do drugs.
I think that telling people to not do drugs and you're gonna arrest them if they do drugs, that's unrealistic.
People have done drugs since the beginning of time.
I think the realistic approach is to fucking educate people and to stop all this nonsense about what is and isn't allowed that a grown adult, a person who has never done it, can tell you, don't do that.
I don't want you to do something that's been around for thousands and thousands of years and has a rich human history of usage, like psilocybin.
That's not the good guy.
The guy telling you he's going to put you in a cage for mushrooms is never the good guy.
rick strassman
Well, I think there need to be places where people can trip who want to trip for any number of reasons.
Yeah.
I don't know what you'd call them.
They might be churches.
They might be retreat centers.
There might be...
joe rogan
I don't think the government should be involved in this, is what my point is.
I don't think they should have any say.
I don't think this has anything to do with you.
Just stay out of the way.
You don't even know what it is.
And if you want to do it, it'll make you a better person.
But don't tell people that you're going to arrest them.
There's some people that are still pushing back against...
The idea of there being recreational use of psilocybin.
Meanwhile, it's helping so many soldiers.
So many soldiers that have come back with PTSD. Psilocybin research is very promising.
rick strassman
I know.
It's impressive.
joe rogan
It's very impressive.
MDMA as well.
rick strassman
Yeah, MDMA as well.
The guy who drove me over this morning as a vet was talking about some of his friends who have done psychedelic therapy and they're like back to normal.
joe rogan
Yeah, and more than one different type of psychedelic.
I've also heard guys doing Ibogaine and then 5-MeO.
I've heard that there's some real success in doing that, but I've talked to people personally that have had psychedelic experiences that have just freed them of so much that they had from combat duty.
rick strassman
Well, I mean, we need to do more research, right?
joe rogan
Right.
rick strassman
Because once we have more research data, we can say, this helps, and it'll really spread out to, you know, the rest of the country as opposed to just within the research communities.
joe rogan
My friend Neil Brennan is a very funny stand-up comedian, and he lives in LA, and he's always had real problems with depression.
And he tried a bunch of different stuff.
He tried ketamine therapy, magnet therapy, tried a bunch of stuff.
And then he went and he did ayahuasca, and he did ayahuasca a bunch of times.
Difference in his personality.
It's like immediately he had abandoned 80% of his anxiety and fucking tension and whatever he had that might have been weighing him down.
And he was like, he's permanently happier.
This is a crazy thing for someone to say.
I took psychedelic drugs and they made me permanently happier.
rick strassman
What do you think about how psychedelics seem to be panaceas?
They seem to do everything.
joe rogan
Well, do they though?
Because if they make you schizophrenic, that's not good.
rick strassman
Well, I mean...
joe rogan
They could for some people.
I don't know what they're doing.
I do think they could be panaceas.
What you're saying is right.
They could be panaceas for a lot of people.
rick strassman
If you look at the literature, I mean, eating disorders, anxiety, depression, OCD, alcohol, cigarettes.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah, in that way.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
For everything.
rick strassman
Improved metaphysical views, make your meditation better.
So in the proper set and the proper setting, they do seem to be like panaceas.
They heal all.
joe rogan
Doesn't it seem like with every medication, and even if you look at psychedelics as being a medication, every medication is going to have side effects?
It seems like there's no one thing that, I mean, people die from aspirin every year, you know?
rick strassman
Well, the stronger the effects, the more side effects there are going to be.
You can't have one without the other, really.
joe rogan
And that's just because of biological diversity, just because people are different and their bodies react differently to things?
rick strassman
Well, the intensity of the pharmacological effect If it's really like, you know, chemotherapy.
I mean, it can end the cancer, but it's just, you know, rife with, you know, toxicity, too.
I'm not sure why that would be the case.
I think that's kind of just how things are in pharmacology.
joe rogan
When you think about psilocybin as like a panacea to all these psychological disorders, what do you think is happening?
Why do you think it's helping people quit drinking, quit smoking cigarettes, quit doing, you know, gambling?
There's a lot of different things it seems to be helping people with.
rick strassman
Well, one possibility is that suggestibility increases on psychedelics.
You're more hypnotizable.
joe rogan
Oh, so someone can program you like a Manchurian candidate.
rick strassman
Or a researcher or a therapist who says get better.
joe rogan
Right.
So hopefully you got a good person programming you.
Could you imagine if that's how we can create...
rick strassman
Well, the Manchurian Candidate story is interesting.
Because the belief was you could just turn an everyday individual into an assassin.
But you had to have those tendencies in the first place, either conscious or unconscious.
If you were a peacenik, like a really peace-loving person, no matter how much LSD they gave you, it's unlikely that you would become an assassin.
joe rogan
Yeah, they had to figure that out, though.
And the way they did is just experiment on people.
rick strassman
Experiment on people.
Right.
joe rogan
Just the actual real history of MKUltra and all the different things they've done, that's 100% not conspiracy theory, actual real history.
rick strassman
It's true.
joe rogan
That stuff is bonkers.
rick strassman
Yeah, I've looked into that a bit.
I even tracked down the old MKUltra files.
They're quite heavily redacted.
joe rogan
You must read Tom O'Neil's Chaos.
It is all about MKUltra and Charles Manson, and it is fucking wild.
It's a guy who studied this case, the Manson family case, for 20 years.
He started off writing an article about it, but as he dove deep into the case, it was so nuts that he just, it was so many layers to it that he refused to stop, and he kept going deeper and deeper, and he'd missed his deadline, and, like, he had a book deal, and he had to give the money back, like, chaos.
Twenty fucking years of this!
And at the end of it, he's got, like, very convincing arguments that Charles Manson was a part of MKUltra.
Charles Manson, that they gave him acid when he was in prison and that they supplied him with acid when he was out there teaching hippies to be fucking hit people.
rick strassman
Well, I think the case of Charles Manson is an important one.
It's a case that I try to bring up in every podcast, which is don't forget Charles Manson.
joe rogan
When it comes to acid.
rick strassman
When it comes to psychedelics.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Because the drugs increase suggestibility, and depending on your environment, you'll be more suggestible to what's around you.
joe rogan
Right, and if you've got someone who's already a charismatic con man, and you catch him in prison and dose him up with acid, and you run a study, I mean, what better person to run a study on than a charismatic, lifelong criminal, you know, and just dose him up with acid and give him a sense of delusions of grandeur, and then also, every time he gets arrested, get him out of jail.
And that's what the book is about.
rick strassman
It's a very strange story.
joe rogan
The book is wild, because Tom is, like, it's very thoroughly researched.
Everything lines up.
rick strassman
And so he's taking the angle from the MKUltra connection.
joe rogan
Yeah, he thinks that that was a part of the project, and that where he used to get his acid from was the same place where the CIA was running the health clinic.
There's a Haight-Ashbury clinic.
The Haight-Ashbury clinic was being run by the fucking CIA. They were doing Operation Midnight Climax there, too, where they had brothels, and they would secretly dose the Johns up at the LSD and study them.
I mean, they were doing wild shit.
And they were also visiting people like Charles Manson in prison.
And this is the thing that he makes this argument that they got to Manson in prison and most likely were dosing him up with acid and teaching him how to turn people into your minions.
rick strassman
Yeah.
The last Manson book I have been reading is The Family.
joe rogan
Oh.
rick strassman
What's that about?
It's about his group.
It's about Manson and his group.
He goes into a lot of details of Manson's growing up.
And there is talk of LSD, obviously, with his group and beforehand some.
But I don't remember him mentioning the MKUltra connection.
That must be pretty recent.
joe rogan
Well, this was also their argument.
How's he getting all this acid?
rick strassman
How's he getting all that acid?
joe rogan
How's he getting all that acid?
And also, how come he keeps getting arrested and let out?
And how come the sheriffs who arrest him say that it's above their pay grade?
And they were told it's above their pay grade.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
And they have to let out this fucking psychopath who's supposed to be in fucking jail.
You know, he broke his parole.
rick strassman
Yeah.
That's quite a seedy chapter in psychedelic work.
joe rogan
It is a really wild book because it's so thoughtfully and thoroughly done.
I mean, it took 20 years for him to do it.
But that was an absolute part of the history of this country, is that they performed tests on unwilling subjects.
They just dosed people up and studied them.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, that's the reason now you need what's like an airtight informed consent.
joe rogan
You know, they did that with Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber.
He was a part of the Harvard studies.
rick strassman
They're giving him LSD. Yeah, you know, so it isn't that you just take LSD and you're cool?
joe rogan
No, not at all.
unidentified
Not at all.
joe rogan
I mean, I think we can't stress that enough, right?
rick strassman
That's the point I make in my book, actually, over and over, is, you know, you should know what you're getting into and prepare yourself.
joe rogan
And this is the second book, not Joseph Levy Escapes Death.
rick strassman
No, not that one.
joe rogan
But the psychedelic handbook.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah, just released today.
Yeah, the longest chapter in there is How to Trip.
joe rogan
It says, A Practical Guide to Psilocybin, LSD, Ketamine, MDMA, and DMT, Ayahuasca, Rick Strassman, MD, available now.
unidentified
Available now.
joe rogan
Did you do the audio for this?
rick strassman
Not yet.
joe rogan
Are you going to do it?
You should do it in your own voice.
Come on, man.
rick strassman
Yeah, it just came out today.
joe rogan
I think people would like to hear it in your own voice if you're willing to do it.
It's a lot of time, though.
rick strassman
You know, quite a few authors do that.
joe rogan
Yes.
I like it when they do it.
I don't like it when someone reads somebody else's stuff.
Especially if someone is good at talking.
rick strassman
Yeah, I've never considered it.
Well, that's not true.
I've considered it, but quickly dismissed it.
But I will think about it some more.
joe rogan
Yeah, you should, because I think people would enjoy it if it was in your words, with your voice.
rick strassman
It was a fun book to write.
I mean, I had to really bone up on the latest research.
I mean, I thought I was current, but man, the last couple of years, it's really hard to keep up.
joe rogan
When you did your very first patients, did anything surprise you?
Like when you put the very first people under, had any of them had any psychedelic experience?
rick strassman
Yeah, the group had to be psychedelic-experienced.
I only studied psychedelic-experienced people.
joe rogan
That's good risk.
rick strassman
Yeah, it was for a couple of reasons.
One was the risk that if they had a hard time, they would know how to get back.
And also, I figured they would be giving better descriptions.
Of the experience.
joe rogan
Right.
They wouldn't be so blown away.
rick strassman
Right.
And the third reason was that if they started abusing psychedelics, they couldn't blame me because they had already been dating them.
joe rogan
Oh, that's very clever.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, you have to do it that way, though.
rick strassman
Yeah, it was a real straight-on study.
I mean, we really made sure to anticipate any objections.
joe rogan
Did anything surprise you about the first batch of test subjects and their experiences?
rick strassman
Yeah.
The first intravenous studies we did, we overdosed two people.
unidentified
What?
rick strassman
Yeah, we gave them too much DMT. Oh, no.
unidentified
Yeah.
rick strassman
Well, we started off at this dose and that dose, and I called FDA and said we're not quite there.
And they said, well, you can go up, you know, two or three times.
And I figured, well, you know, things are pretty easy so far.
Let's go up three times.
And it was way too much.
Both people just couldn't remember anything.
joe rogan
Really?
rick strassman
Yeah, so we figured, okay, let's...
joe rogan
How long did it last?
rick strassman
You know, half hour, 20 minutes.
joe rogan
And what did they say it was like?
rick strassman
One guy described it as being thrown off a boat in the middle of a storm and ending up in the water and just being thrashed about, completely helpless and terrified.
And the other guy, he just, like, retched.
Yeah, and he didn't remember much, so we figured that was too much.
Yeah, so then we settled on a pretty stiff dose.
It's the biggest dose still in use, or smaller doses are being used now currently.
So far, nobody has gotten up to the high doses of DMT that we gave.
joe rogan
And what you were giving them, was the experience uniform that they described?
rick strassman
Mostly.
joe rogan
Really?
rick strassman
Yeah, mostly.
One person was completely unresponsive to it.
joe rogan
Well, like your story of THC. Can I ask you one more question?
Were they doing it simultaneously?
rick strassman
No, everybody was just like...
joe rogan
Did you do any where they did it simultaneously?
rick strassman
No.
joe rogan
I would be really interested in that.
rick strassman
Why?
joe rogan
Because of the telepathine thing.
Before they figured out telepathine was harming, they would kind of call it telepathine because they had shared group telepathic experiences.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, do you know David Luke in Birmingham?
Well, someplace in England.
David Luke is a parapsychologist who's very interested in psychedelics, and he's done ESP studies with psychedelics.
Yeah, and he's finding some promising data that ESP telepathy is enhanced when both people are stoned.
joe rogan
Because I've heard of people having conjoined experiences on ayahuasca before.
I've heard of people having experiences like they independently verify with other people that they were kind of in the same place.
As far as what they saw.
rick strassman
That description of my first experience smoking hash, it was a shared hallucination.
Yeah, we both were seeing the same thing.
Oh, do you see that?
Yeah, yeah.
We'd expand on it.
joe rogan
Yeah.
It's just, what is it?
What is that?
What are those group minds, those weird sinking of minds?
Like, what does that mean?
What's happening there?
rick strassman
Well, it seems that everything is contained in a field, and you can tap into that field in certain circumstances.
joe rogan
So including your thoughts and my thoughts, and then we're all just, we can link up.
rick strassman
Yeah.
My favorite science fiction writer is an Englishman whose name is Stapleton.
And he wrote a book about 19 species of humans that evolved over 2 billion years.
And the final species is able to experience population-wide telepathy.
unidentified
Oh, wow.
rick strassman
Every 500 years or so, when things are just dialed in, and it would be what people would be looking for, these people would live 35,000 years because that was the necessary time to attain all of the knowledge that was out there.
And they would spend all their time otherwise trying to connect on a worldwide level.
And it was every 500 years, every 1000 years.
It was a rare event, but everyone would sing and dance in that space.
joe rogan
What do you think about the possibility of some sort of a technologically inspired or driven Group telepathy like what I would worry about with stuff like that is it being co-opted and someone being able to control it but if somehow or another they released one of these things that you put on your head that allowed everybody to communicate in a universal language with everybody like a language that everybody
picks up pretty easily because you're getting downloaded information much quicker because you actually have some sort of a weird implant in your brain and I think we would need to be wiser, you know, for it not to go south.
I think it's going south.
And I think that's where people are going.
I think we are sliding down the mountaintop, holding onto our ass.
And I think we're going to go right off.
I think we're going right into cyborg land.
rick strassman
Right.
And, you know, because people are the way they are, there's no guarantee that it'll be for the good.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Once you can read minds, it's going to be way harder to control people.
It's going to be way harder to get people to buy into bullshit.
You can't have propaganda anymore.
There's like so many positives to it that a lot of people are just going to dive right in.
unidentified
But you're also never going to have privacy.
joe rogan
You're going to live in this weird world of communication where people communicate with you non-locally with your mind.
So what are you gonna get spam?
You're gonna get spam texts in your brain?
I get like four or five spam text messages a day.
Like, do you need cash?
Like, question is, fill us out now.
I get four or five of those a day.
You're probably gonna get those from the whole world.
You're gonna have a hard time avoiding them if we're all, like, hyper-connected.
People are gonna take advantage of it and try to sell Bitcoin and push NFTs.
It's gonna be...
rick strassman
Well, I think you need to stay out of sell range if you can.
joe rogan
There's going to be a way probably for people to opt out during the day.
Like, shut off so he can work.
rick strassman
Well, do you like Philip K. Dick?
joe rogan
I really like that.
There was one that they turned into a film.
What was it?
What was the Philip K. Dick book that they turned into a film?
rick strassman
Well, there's Total Recall.
jamie vernon
A lot of things just popped up.
joe rogan
Oh, Total Recall.
You did that, too?
rick strassman
There's Blade Runner.
jamie vernon
Scanner Darkly.
joe rogan
That's it.
Scanner Darkly's Wild.
rick strassman
Yeah, that's a great movie.
joe rogan
Yeah, Scanner Darkly.
That is a really fucking cool movie.
rick strassman
Yeah, I like that.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's like a wild, semi-animated movie.
rick strassman
Yeah, it's called a rotoscope.
joe rogan
Yeah, that was fun.
That was a cool fucking movie.
rick strassman
Well, so Philip K. Dick has written a short novel.
It's called The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldridge.
And it's about the competition between two psychedelic drugs.
One's from Earth, and one is from another star system.
And the one from Earth, you know, they're both, you know, these huge corporations that are making, you know, millions of tons of this psychedelic.
The one that was created on Earth just puts people into the Perky Pat world where things are really fun.
Like there's this little figure, Perky Pat, and you go into her house and, you know, you wash dishes and you have parties.
You know, weird Philip K. Dick stuff.
And there's another psychedelic that comes from outer space, and it's really bad.
You never really stop tripping, even though you think you have.
joe rogan
Oh my god, that sounds terrible.
rick strassman
Oh, it's a horror story.
It's scarier than anything I've ever read.
So I think there's going to be this competition.
What's the most popular soft drink?
Or the most popular music?
I think a state of consciousness is going to be the turf that huge interests are battling over.
joe rogan
Yeah.
It's going to be interesting to see whether or not they can control it and whether or not the technologists will allow it.
Ultimately, it's like the people that put it out, whatever it is, they have the ability to control it or not control it, depending upon what stage it's at.
But I feel like if it keeps going in the same general direction, the general direction is about access to information.
It's more instantaneous.
It's more accessible.
There's only so much you can do to put a cork on that if it really gets out.
If it really gets to a universal language thing, the only way they're going to get people It's if they figure out some sort of a digital currency.
Force people into a centralized digital currency and then attach it to a social credit score system.
And then, bam, you're living in China.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
They could do that.
They could trick people into doing that.
But the other option is psychedelics.
And I think if more people had positive, well-guided experiences, and not people with slippery grips on reality as it is, I think you're at least gonna get a sense that a percentage of the population is moving to a better state of mind,
a better way of coexisting with other humans, not so angry, more in awe and wonder about this whole thing, and with a general attempt to be kinder because of it.
rick strassman
Well, I think that the outcome of any individual psychedelic experience is obviously the set and the setting.
Who you are and what you want to get out of it and your environment.
I think you really need to work on the set and the setting for positive outcomes.
So I think that's kind of the task now is to work out the best sets and settings.
joe rogan
You think about how good people always feel in nature.
Nature is almost like the ultimate set and setting.
unidentified
I know.
joe rogan
It's great.
It's kind of like biologically enriching or something.
Like you lay down in a beautiful hill and you look out at all the trees and the mountains.
It's like, God, this is so beautiful.
Just by itself.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
And then if you add psilocybin to those experiences, it's generally it's like, I mean, the ones I've had have been like extra, like filled with awe, like extra, you feel connected to all the trees and the grass and the dirt seems alive.
rick strassman
And I think that also, though, you know, sometimes you'll need to be indoors.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, like if you're smoking DMT, let's say.
Oh, yeah.
joe rogan
You should be on the couch.
rick strassman
Yeah, as opposed to the field or something.
joe rogan
Have you seen anybody fall, like, black out and fall down on it?
rick strassman
Yeah, I was at a conference.
Oh, not a conference, but an event in Dallas.
A long time ago.
And I was being hosted by a couple of kids.
And they took me over to their house.
And everybody's smoking DMT. They're ordering pizza, and there's music, and everybody's smoking DMT. Oh, no.
joe rogan
What a disaster.
rick strassman
Yeah, and this one guy had never smoked DMT before.
They gave him a huge amount, and he started screaming and falling down.
joe rogan
That's the worst setting ever.
rick strassman
Yeah, they wanted me to see what they were doing.
I was like, man, this is kind of high risk.
joe rogan
Oh, that's so dumb.
I did it with Doug Stanhope once, and he almost had a seizure.
I was worried we were going to lose him.
He, like, was making crazy noises.
It was very strange.
I've never seen anybody respond to DMT that way.
He's, like, moaning, like...
rick strassman
Oh, really?
Well, does he remember it?
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
It was a positive experience overall.
I just think that he was, like, hanging on.
In the beginning of it, maybe a little too much.
It was a 5-MeO DMT experience.
If you try to hang on, you're not hanging on to that.
It's going to take you with it.
Just relax.
And maybe that's what was going on.
Maybe he was hanging on.
But he came out of it.
It was a positive experience.
rick strassman
Well, you can see videos of people flopping around on 5-methoxy DMT. See, this is the problem with legalization, right?
joe rogan
I think it would be irresponsible to just give it away to everybody.
But I do think that it would be very beneficial to have it in places that are like a really well-established, well-set-up center where people can do these things under professional supervision, by people with experience in them, people that know the The purity of the stuff, the right dose, the right thing, and it can be a business.
And it can make sense as a business.
And then also give people the ability to do it on their own afterwards.
Okay, now you know what it is.
Now you know how to get it.
This is the right dose.
Just don't fuck around.
And enjoy yourself.
You get to learn.
You get certified in proper use.
It's not a bad idea.
If you give people a license to drive a car, Give them a license to do DMT. Like, hey, Todd, like, how do you feel about reality?
Like, Todd, you know, what shape do you think the Earth is?
You know, ask them pretty simple questions.
rick strassman
Yeah, well, I mean, the future of psychedelics, I mean, it looks pretty bright.
joe rogan
What do you think is pushing it the most?
Do you think it's these studies they do with PTSD in soldiers?
rick strassman
I mean, there are just, you know, so many influences out there that want to see psychedelics or, you know, so many interests that want to see more people take more psychedelics.
You know, there's commercial ones, and there's therapeutic ones, and there's spiritual ones, and there's brain science ones.
You know, so...
You know, the great thing about psychedelics is they extend their reach into everything that's distinctly human.
And they affect all aspects of human consciousness, I mean, across the board, too.
So, yeah, they're kind of like mirrors in a way.
They're strange drugs.
I mean, I always encourage students to get as much school as they can and to study psychedelics in a rigorous manner if they can.
joe rogan
If you had the ability, if they came to you, if President Biden came to you and said, Dr. Strassman, could you...
Tell me, should I legalize everything or not?
Would you just, if you could hit the switch, if you were the guy they came to?
rick strassman
That's a trick question.
joe rogan
Are all the good questions trick questions?
rick strassman
Or I should ask you, is that a trick question?
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
What would you do?
rick strassman
Well, I'd say it's complicated.
That's the typical response from a psychiatrist.
joe rogan
Yeah, you sound like a real scientist.
rick strassman
It's complicated, yeah.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And so would you have to develop some sort of an assessment of the pros and cons and what the negatives could be and how to mitigate some of the negatives, like the people that are losing their mind and overdosing and have access to people that are too young?
Like, there's a lot of factors in there that you'd have to consider upon legalization.
rick strassman
Right, right.
Gosh, you know, it's like a multi-pronged approach.
I mean, education and organizations and have to get the church on board.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Or at least, you know, you're not against what's happening.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
So your experience with...
You had some experience with one of those churches, because I remember you telling this story about what it was like to go visit them, and they were wearing golf shirts and doing ayahuasca.
rick strassman
Well, the UDV is pretty straight.
The...
The ceremonies take place under lights, like in a big room, and you sit in a chair, and there's somebody leading the ceremony.
It's like a church ceremony.
joe rogan
So when you say straight, you mean like a regular church, but they also do psychedelics?
They don't seem to be hippies at all?
rick strassman
I mean, they really emphasize being a good family member and a good contributor to society.
So it's like a Christian church in that way.
joe rogan
And how often are they having these psychedelic experiences?
rick strassman
Generally twice a month, usually a little more.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
They would be fascinating people to study.
rick strassman
Yeah, well, they're being studied.
Oh, are they?
Yeah, there's a lot of information about the effects of participation in the churches in Brazil, and some in the U.S., but especially Brazil, because that's where they both...
joe rogan
Netflix should get on board with that, you know, because that could be like a whole series.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
Study these people and study the effect.
That actually is a fascinating idea for a series.
Because what they're doing is really profound if it's working.
Someone should find out, is this really a harmonious society?
Are they really happier?
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
They've been studying members of these ayahuasca using churches for a long time, for decades now.
joe rogan
And what is their conclusion?
rick strassman
The kids are healthier and less drug abuse, less alcoholism, less depression, better quality of life.
It's quite impressive.
joe rogan
It makes sense.
It makes sense if you've had experiences yourself and you understand the impact that it could have if you attached it to a structure like religion.
rick strassman
It's quite structured, yeah.
They're into God, they're into Jesus, they're into the Bible, they're into Solomon.
So the ethical teachings, which are part of the Bible, part of a spiritual system.
joe rogan
Do they have certain passages that they recite while they trip or before they trip?
rick strassman
Not that I remember.
joe rogan
Do they come back with like some sort of an experience?
It seems like biblical experiences?
rick strassman
Their story of the beginning of the church relates to King Solomon.
So there's, you know, references to King Solomon.
They do refer to the Bible, I'm thinking about it, as most, you know, Christians do, you know, Protestants anyway are pretty familiar with the Bible.
You know, so they know text.
joe rogan
But did they come back, like, what are they experiencing?
Are they experiencing, like, a standard ayahuasca, you know, seeing vines and snakes and jaguars and UFOs?
Or are they seeing things that are Christian in nature?
rick strassman
They're mostly seeing things which relate to them, how to be better people.
So there's a real emphasis on personal growth and evolution and bringing society to a higher level.
It's quite altruistic, and it's, you know, like as you note, if you have a structure that is essentially good, that you're kind of giving the psychedelics within, you know, the outcomes can be really positive.
joe rogan
Yeah, I think the structure of, you know, if you look at the best aspects of almost all religions, they're all about trying to unite society in some sort of a way.
The best aspects, you know.
rick strassman
Mm-hmm.
joe rogan
If you attach that to a psychedelic, then it becomes a bi-monthly ritual.
That's pretty wild.
rick strassman
Yeah, you know, being charitable, doing good things.
Things like that.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Oh, you said bi-weekly, right?
rick strassman
Every two weeks or so.
joe rogan
That's so much.
That's so much.
Those people are on cloud nine all the time.
They're just recovering from the last one and bang, they're right back in again.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, I spent about three months associated with them.
joe rogan
I like how you say it that way.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
Three months associated with them.
rick strassman
Well, yeah, that's what it's called.
You become an associate.
Yeah.
unidentified
Oh!
rick strassman
Yeah, that's the terminology.
joe rogan
Oh, interesting.
That's the religious terminology?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
I like that.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
I like that.
rick strassman
And I was an associate for maybe three or four months.
Yeah, and I was drinking a lot of ayahuasca, and I felt pretty darn good.
joe rogan
So when you were doing it, what was the experience like?
Like, how would a ceremony go down?
Everybody would do it together?
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, what was interesting is you would eat beforehand.
Most of the time they say have an empty stomach and so on.
But their opinion is if you are throwing up, it's better to have something in your stomach than just throwing up the… Ayahuasca itself?
Well, the ayahuasca itself or your stomach acids.
If you have some food, it will kind of buffer things.
joe rogan
That actually makes sense.
Would it slow the absorption, though?
rick strassman
It can.
joe rogan
So that would be the negative, right?
You would want to get the full dose?
rick strassman
Well, they spend about an hour in preliminaries, socializing.
joe rogan
Okay, so you do digest it somewhat.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
And then everybody gets in line.
And the master of ceremonies that night will look at you, look at the brood, decide how much to give you.
joe rogan
Interesting.
The look at you.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
This motherfucker can't handle this.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Yeah.
joe rogan
How do they just decide?
rick strassman
Right.
I've wondered.
I've asked them.
And they, you know, said it's intuitive.
joe rogan
Oh, God.
unidentified
That's so weird.
joe rogan
That's a lot of power.
He who controls the ayahuasca controls man.
rick strassman
Yeah.
I think I've gotten, you know, yeah.
It's an interesting process.
Like you are thinking, I hope they don't give me too much.
But also, you know, I hope he gives me a lot because I'm like macho or whatever.
joe rogan
Right.
I can take it, bro.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
If we did have legitimate psychedelic centers in America, there would have to be some real thought beforehand as to what's the best way to approach it from an education perspective, explaining things to people, what to expect.
There's a lot to that.
But I don't want to be the person that tells a person they can or can't do it either.
I would say we should have some sort of a screening process, but then I'm entirely against screening processes.
rick strassman
Screening is really helpful.
Sure.
joe rogan
But I don't like the idea that someone can control whether or not people do or don't do it.
Because it could get slippery.
That could get weird.
Someone could, like, come up with more and more reasons to not give, like, maybe you have the wrong political persuasion, or they've labeled you a terrorist because you don't believe in taxes or whatever.
rick strassman
Oh, okay.
joe rogan
Now you can't do it anymore.
rick strassman
Yeah, the screening idea I was thinking of was, you know, screening research people.
joe rogan
Oh, right.
rick strassman
And even then, when you're screening people who participate in research studies, there's no guarantee they won't have problems.
joe rogan
Oh, for sure.
I meant for the general public, screening people in terms of being able to not give it to people with legitimate mental illness.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
How would you stop that?
rick strassman
It would be like any other drug, I think.
You know, like if you've got an allergy to a medication, you're screened out of getting that medication.
joe rogan
Right, but we'd have to alert people to it and then tell them not to do it.
rick strassman
Well, yeah, like a huge multi-level process of organization.
It's almost like the NIH ought to start a division, maybe, of psychedelic medicine.
joe rogan
Yeah, well, it's not a bad idea.
I think over time, we're going to find more and more people are interested in it because it's not as stigmatized as it was.
There was such a stigma attached to psychedelics when I was in high school.
Psychedelics were for idiots.
If you're doing psychedelics, you're trying to blow your brains out like that guy from The Who.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, so when was that, that year in high school?
joe rogan
Or Pink Floyd, right?
rick strassman
Pink Floyd, yeah.
The crazy diamond.
joe rogan
Yeah.
This was 1981. It was my first year in high school.
rick strassman
Oh, really?
So that was, you know, like the peak of the dare stuff?
joe rogan
Exactly.
That was the Reagan years.
It was Just Say No, all that stuff.
If you go back to the 1960s, the Ken Kesey, Tim Leary stuff, and then you shoot just 20 years ahead, it's gone.
There's nothing.
In high schools and in colleges, people were more turned on to some of those things, but it wasn't overwhelmingly popular like it was just 20 years before.
rick strassman
Yeah, even 10 years before.
I mean, there were a lot of psychedelics on campus in the early 70s, mid-70s.
joe rogan
So how did they put a fucking fire hose on all that?
rick strassman
They didn't.
Underground use stayed pretty much constant, even during the war on drugs.
joe rogan
Really?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
Like for LSD. Well, what about for other things, like psilocybin?
Ayahuasca was not very popular back then, nor was DMT. Oh.
rick strassman
You'd have to look at the specific survey, but, you know, they ask certain questions about certain drugs.
And I think they probably had an LSD category and maybe psychedelics in general.
You know, back then they really weren't looking at psilocybin.
That's probably changed the last five or ten years, though.
Hmm.
joe rogan
What do you think is going to happen in terms of the way the country opens up, in terms of being able to do therapy on people with PTSD, and then ultimately do you think we're going to see some sort of a recreational usage in our lifetime, like federally?
rick strassman
Hold that thought.
joe rogan
And we're back again in a few moments, ladies and gentlemen.
But my question was, in our lifetime, do you think that we're ever going to see legalized psychedelics?
Where people of consenting age...
rick strassman
Well, I think there'll be models that'll be recreational and also medical.
joe rogan
So do you think it'll be like state-to-state?
Probably state-to-state.
rick strassman
I think it would be like liquor.
It would be like alcohol.
Recreationally, there'd be dispensaries.
joe rogan
Right, but alcohol is legal nationwide, federally.
That's the big problem with cannabis and psilocybin.
No matter what happens, if these towns make them legal, it's still federally illegal, particularly like hard drugs, right?
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, there would need to be some regulation across the country, which would require rescheduling.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Yeah.
You know, it's interesting that there's no scheduling of alcohol, for example.
I mean, that should be scheduled.
joe rogan
100%.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, that's a tricky drug.
rick strassman
Right.
You know, but what's the expression?
You know, the horse is out of the barn at this point when it comes to alcohol.
joe rogan
It is, and it's also socially people's favorite drug.
It's so accepted, so recreational, and everywhere you go where people are eating dinner, they're drinking alcohol.
Everywhere.
It's happening all over the place.
They're drinking beers with their burgers, and they're drinking wine with their steak, and people are always drinking.
rick strassman
Well, if there were going to be dispensaries, yeah, there'd need to—well, yeah, I think state to state would be how it goes, you know, kind of like what they're doing in Oregon.
I mean, it is legalized even though it's a Schedule I drug.
joe rogan
I know, but Oregon is like the worst.
rick strassman
Oh, right.
joe rogan
They're always lighting their courthouse on fire.
I mean, that place is fucking wild.
rick strassman
Yeah, they're stressed out.
joe rogan
Yeah, they're very high strung in Portland.
rick strassman
And I think also prescribing.
So you could prescribe.
joe rogan
But you could also deny a prescription.
And that's what it gets to me.
It's like, I don't like the idea of the government being involved in psychedelics.
I don't think it should be like a prescription.
I think there should be some educators that put forth some sort of reasonable recommendations and then society adopts them.
People really understand what the dosage should be, what's the most important part about setting, and having well-educated, experienced travelers who are also counselors.
But getting the government involved, get the fuck out of here.
If they regulate it, they're just going to tax the shit out of it and ruin it.
They'll just water down the dose or figure out a way to make too much money from it.
rick strassman
There'll still be underground use though.
joe rogan
Of course.
rick strassman
You know, an underground culture which could maintain the integrity.
joe rogan
Yeah, but why bring the government into ayahuasca?
Get out of here.
They should just stop with all these stupid schedule, you know, when it comes to something that has like a history of use, like stop.
You can't make that a schedule one drug.
That's ridiculous.
Gordon Wasson was writing about it in the 1950s.
What are you talking about?
You made that a Schedule I drug?
This drug with a mountain of positive experience stories?
rick strassman
I know.
Schedule 1, you know, when my study started giving DMT, I mean DMT Schedule 1, but I was thinking about the scheduling of psychedelics into Schedule 1, which means, you know, there's no known medical use.
They can't be given safely under medical supervision, and they're highly abusable.
You know, so this was in the early 90s.
I began the study, and I wrote to Janet Reno, who was the Attorney General under Bill Clinton at the time.
And I said, these drugs shouldn't be in Schedule I. And I could say, why not?
Because I'm doing research, which indicates they can be given safely under medical use.
And we're gathering important data, which means they have utility under medical supervision.
So, you know, one of her assistants wrote back and said, very complicated, changing drug laws.
Yeah, so didn't get much further beyond that.
joe rogan
Isn't that fun?
They could just say, it's very complicated, changing drug laws.
Sorry, can't do it.
Can't do it.
unidentified
Impossible.
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
Impossible.
If the grid goes down, we'll get that back up.
But it is impossible to change this piece of paper where it says that you can't do that.
It's not.
I just, I can't.
I'd like to help.
rick strassman
Well, you know, at the time I had more important matters at hand, like, you know, running my study, but I think at a certain point it would be worth, you know, a while to reconsider the scheduling of, you know, Schedule I. Well, what is ketamine?
Three, I think.
joe rogan
That's interesting.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
Because they're doing a lot of that.
They're doing a lot of these guided ketamine sessions.
rick strassman
Yeah, ketamine's huge.
Yeah.
joe rogan
But it's a real psychedelic.
I don't have an experience with ketamine, but my friend Neil that I talked about earlier, one of the things that he had did prior to ayahuasca, he did ketamine in a medical setting.
And he was like, I can't believe how high I was, like how strong it is.
I was like, you're really tripping.
It's not like some sort of little sort of baby ketamine thing, like feel better about yourself thing.
rick strassman
Well, it sounds like he's describing the K-hole.
Are you familiar with the K-hole?
joe rogan
I thought the K-hole was negative, because I don't think he was saying this was negative.
Is the K-hole when you can't move, like you're stuck in a hole?
rick strassman
You can't move.
Yeah, you're under general anesthesia, but you're still cautious.
And some people like that.
joe rogan
I'm sure.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Especially if your life sucks.
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
Right?
You just want to zone out.
rick strassman
Yeah.
And for some people, it's terrifying.
joe rogan
Some people get addicted to that stuff too, right?
rick strassman
Yeah.
Somebody I heard describe it as psychedelic heroin.
unidentified
Ooh.
joe rogan
Ooh.
I've heard of people getting addicted to snorting it.
rick strassman
Snorting it?
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Yeah.
And injecting it.
joe rogan
Injecting it.
rick strassman
Intramuscular.
unidentified
Intramuscular.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's what Timothy Leary used to do, right?
unidentified
No.
rick strassman
John Lilly.
joe rogan
John Lilly.
That's what John Lilly used to do when he got into his float tank.
He would intramuscularly jab himself and then...
rick strassman
Well, you know, I knew John Lilly.
We spent a little time together.
joe rogan
Yeah?
rick strassman
Yeah.
I mean, he was pretty old at that point.
And I was at a conference with him.
And, you know, he was, I don't know, 70s, 80s, and he loved ketamine.
joe rogan
He still got after it?
rick strassman
Yeah, so some people, but...
joe rogan
Why not?
rick strassman
Why not?
I mean, you only live once, right?
joe rogan
Well, he is the creator of the, in my opinion, one of the greatest tools for...
Exploring your mind ever.
rick strassman
The tank.
joe rogan
The float tank.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
That thing's amazing.
Marijuana plus float tank is the wildest ride.
Oh my god.
Sometimes I get out of there, I'm like, what the fuck?
rick strassman
Well, you know, I've never been in a float tank.
joe rogan
Really?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
Never?
rick strassman
I don't think ever, no.
I have friends who own float tanks or float tank companies like in Albuquerque.
joe rogan
You should definitely try it.
I think you'd enjoy it.
rick strassman
I've been invited, yeah.
joe rogan
It's very relaxing, too.
That's the thing about it.
It's not just that when you do the float thing, you have these wild visions and this weird way of seeing reality because you're sort of detached from everything else.
Just you alone with your thoughts.
Because the water is the same temperature as the surface of your skin.
So you're just floating there and you can't distinguish between the air and the water.
You feel completely weightless.
But besides the visuals, it's also really good for your muscles.
Everything just sort of relaxes and softens.
rick strassman
Yeah, I'd like that.
joe rogan
It's nice.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
Because it's Epsom salts.
It's like a thousand pounds of Epsom salts in that tank.
rick strassman
Well, so I wanted to ask Rupert Sheldrick if there was a specific passage in his book that seemed like he was stoned when he wrote it.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
And I said, did you write that when you were stoned?
He said, I write everything when I'm stoned.
joe rogan
Yeah.
I pretty much do, too.
I write a lot of things not stoned, but they're not good.
I mean, I've written some bits definitely sober.
Like, I came up with an idea sober, and I wrote it down and it became a bit.
But there's a thing that happens when I sit down in front of a keyboard when I'm high.
It's almost like it opens up like a channel that I can't reach, like I can tune into it.
unidentified
Like, hey, here we are.
joe rogan
So here's the ideas.
rick strassman
It's bizarre.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's weird.
rick strassman
But it's true.
joe rogan
It's a strange form of creative enhancement, as we were saying before, where we're allegedly smoking marijuana.
rick strassman
Well, so I get stoned and I take a pen in hand on a pad of paper.
Well, so the ideas just come.
You know, you really can't do editing.
Stoned?
joe rogan
Yeah, that seems like a sober task, right?
rick strassman
Yeah, it's kind of, you know, you have to think.
You have to be critical.
You just can't let stuff kind of flow.
joe rogan
You know, George Carlin had the opposite way of writing.
He would write sober and then edit stoned.
He would write his bit sober and then punch him up stoned.
Make him funnier stoned.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, do you think you're funnier stoned?
joe rogan
I don't know.
When it comes to doing stand-up, it really is about your mood, you know?
I don't think you necessarily are funny or stoned.
It's really about your mood.
It's about the material.
But, like, being funny-er is really about, like, how you feeling.
rick strassman
If you feel funny.
joe rogan
Yeah, well, you feel good, too.
You're having fun.
Like, that is funnier.
It's so that's like a state of mind and then it's the material and how you deliver it and you know That's part of being quote-unquote professional, right?
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
You don't really find your stone when you're doing it that way But there's things that happen when you're stoned that wouldn't have happened when you're sober That's the dilemma because sometimes like when you're stoned you are on a subject and then a new path appears like oh Why don't I go down there?
And you just start talking about something that you never talked about before, and it turns out to be hilarious.
rick strassman
Right, right.
I think it really, you know, loosens up, you know, suppression or resistance.
You can...
Well, I think it has an effect, you know, clearly on short-term memory.
joe rogan
Oh, for sure.
Yeah, in a detrimental effect.
That's what's dangerous about it.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
You need to be in the right place when you're that stoned to be that creative.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Are you recording this?
joe rogan
Yeah, we're good?
Or do you want to not?
rick strassman
You know, this is interesting.
joe rogan
Yeah, we're recording all of it.
rick strassman
Yeah, okay, good.
joe rogan
Yeah, we were going to come back to...
What was the...
Rupert Sheldrake.
rick strassman
Oh, okay, fine.
joe rogan
We're going to start right there.
rick strassman
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah, well, you know, the first time I smoked hash, one of the things that really struck me was how I lost all self-criticism.
You know, I was able to think things and feel things without any restrictions at all.
And I think that's part of what occurs when you can't write, or if you have writer's block, is you're kind of criticizing yourself.
Like, you're no good or you can't write it or you can't have any good ideas.
And for me, anyway, that part of my inner dialogue goes away on pot.
joe rogan
That's interesting.
That's interesting that that's what writer's block is in your eyes, too.
I wonder if that is it.
Like, the self-criticism.
Like, a lot of people have a hard time enjoying themselves, right?
They think of themselves in a bad light.
They don't like themselves, you know?
They want to, like, get drunk or do something to escape.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, I think people take drugs a lot of time to escape.
When I was working in this little town between Taos and Santa Fe called Española, really serious drug problems.
And I would ask people, at least early on...
To distinguish among the effects of the different drugs that they were on, like heroin or methamphetamine or paint or, you know, whatever.
And they mostly said, it just makes us not feel.
You know, all the drugs, each of the drugs would have the same effect, even though they're quite distinct pharmacologically, but they just wanted to stop feeling.
joe rogan
One thing that psychedelics make you think, Is whenever there's some sort of a problem in this world in terms of like a poor neighborhood with another shooting, like Chicago, like South Side of Chicago or Baltimore, when you hear about these crazy things like How much money would it cost to fix that?
And how much money do we just send over to other countries when we're finagling deals and hooking people up and fixing things?
And I'm not talking even just about Ukraine.
I'm talking about how much do we spend, period.
How much would it cost to fix that?
It doesn't seem like it would cost as much as arming other countries.
It seems like if they had money for that, and they didn't anticipate that, and then they had money for that, why didn't you fix that other stuff?
Why didn't you fix, if you guys are really competent and you really wanted a better country, wouldn't you want to fix all the places that are fucked up like that?
There's been zero effort.
rick strassman
Well, do you ever think about going into politics?
joe rogan
No.
rick strassman
No?
joe rogan
Never.
Nonsense.
rick strassman
Oh, why not?
joe rogan
Same reason I don't want to go into pro wrestling.
You get fucked up.
rick strassman
You can change things from the inside.
joe rogan
Oh, can you?
Yeah.
You can also find yourself hanging from an extension cord.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's a dirty business with a lot of money involved in it.
I'm not interested.
I have the best jobs.
Talk shit and tell jokes.
And occasionally call UFC fights.
It's great.
rick strassman
Yeah, and you're making a critique of society through what you're doing.
joe rogan
Well, I'm just saying what I'm seeing and having people on that have all kinds of different perspectives.
I want to hear how they're looking at it.
I'm constantly amazed by how many intelligent people there are to talk to.
There's so many cool people that you can just have conversations with about everything and anything, whether it's you, about All the above about psychedelics, about your research, about having the mind and the courage.
You're such an important part of the psychedelic history of this country.
Because what you did is you legitimized a very important thing.
That everybody had already kind of heard about and some people had experienced it and you legitimized it by doing it in like a real clinical setting with the government's permission.
rick strassman
And funded.
joe rogan
Funded by the war on drugs.
I mean it's amazing.
You know, it's really important because it opened people's eyes that this is repeatable, that this is understood to be something that has been used by human beings for a long time.
And just recently we probably have been detached from that.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, I wanted to demonstrate you could do it.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Safely.
And you could generate valuable information.
You know, the goals were modest, but the goals were modest because I wanted them to succeed.
joe rogan
Right.
rick strassman
Yeah.
So that was a good strategy.
joe rogan
You know, when they try to find the history of DMT use, what is the current understanding as far as like how long back they know people were either taking the snuff or doing an ayahuasca or some form of it?
rick strassman
So have you talked with Dennis McKenna about his thoughts about the evolution of DMT, how far back it goes in the family tree of life?
joe rogan
I don't remember if I did, but please...
rick strassman
I haven't looked carefully into his thinking, but as I understand it, he points to it being a very old compound, a very ancient compound that had occurred very early on in evolution.
joe rogan
But when do they think humans started ingesting it?
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, the historical record, I mean, there's ayahuasca, right?
And that might go back 5,000 years.
But, you know, probably before.
I mean, why not?
joe rogan
This is my question.
Before smallpox ravaged the Amazon, Before all those people died, and they're still doing research on this, right?
They don't exactly know what these cities were because that LIDAR stuff, when it lays out this grid, they understand that there were structures there, but they don't know what it was.
But the big crazy story is that there was millions of people there.
That's the craziest possibility, and that's the one that Graham subscribes to.
There was millions of people there.
Do you think that that society perhaps was a psychedelic society and that's why they had that knowledge of how to make that stuff?
And then the people who survived were the people that were removed from the inner city areas, the people that lived in these tribal areas were the ones that lived and they had the knowledge that these people had run their society with using that stuff.
If they're able to have these insane structures, like the whole lost city of Z, you know, that it was a feature film, but it was also a book, and it's based on a real explorer who went down there and they were looking for this lost golden city that had been talked about before, but most likely what they think happened was those people that went, whether it was 100 years ago or whatever it was, they killed everybody.
They gave them diseases, and it just ravaged everybody, and the jungle just consumed everything.
So when they went back to look for it, they couldn't find anything.
rick strassman
Well, your question about whether it was a...
joe rogan
A psychedelic society.
If they were that far advanced.
rick strassman
Right.
Yeah, I mean, it could be.
I mean, in the right circumstances, psychedelics enhance sociability, right?
And empathy, and compassion, and those kinds of virtuous characteristics.
Yeah, you know, so it may have been a part of their society.
I'm not that familiar.
It's a Mayan phenomenon.
joe rogan
It's definitely in the Mayans, right?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
So the Mayans used mushrooms and other psychedelics.
So, yeah, I mean, I don't know how extensive the use pervaded down among the lower strata of society, but you would think that the clergy would be taking them regularly.
joe rogan
Well, you had to be on mushrooms to build those fucking pyramids.
rick strassman
Yeah, so the scientists also were taking mushrooms.
joe rogan
I mean, what?
How did you figure this out?
When you go to Chichen Itza?
Like, I don't think they let people walk up it now.
I think too many TikTokers fucked that up.
Did they ruin that?
Is that true?
They don't let you walk up the pyramid of Chichen Itza?
I feel like something happened there.
There was some, like, event.
Some sort of a news story.
And then they said you can't walk up it anymore.
But I got to walk up it.
I think I went in 2003 or 2004 or something like that.
And it was wild.
Just to be around those things.
I want to take...
jamie vernon
You're not allowed to anymore.
joe rogan
You're not allowed to anymore.
Somebody fucked it up.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's probably TikTokers.
It's always shaking their ass up there.
jamie vernon
We got rumors about illegal climbing.
joe rogan
Illegal climbing.
jamie vernon
Yeah.
joe rogan
Well, luckily, I got to do it.
And I want to do the other places.
I want to do the other ones in Mexico.
I want to do...
I eventually want to see...
jamie vernon
Someone fell and died.
joe rogan
Oh, shit.
Whoops.
unidentified
Ouch.
jamie vernon
No more.
joe rogan
Imagine watching someone slip and go down that thing.
Oof.
But the point is, like, these people, however long ago it was that they built these things, like, these are incredible structures.
Incredible.
Like, the way they're set up, they're so symmetrical and beautiful, and they have, at the top of it, like, a place where they would put human bodies when they would do sacrifices on them.
So you've got this, like, kind of creature that has its legs bent and...
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, you wonder if they came up with the architecture based on their visions, of the geometric, fractal-like visions, how they may have modeled their buildings on some of those.
joe rogan
That's entirely possible, right?
What do you think led to them going—why did they all go to sacrifices?
What's that all about?
So many of these, like, ancient cultures, they're like, we want to sacrifice—they kill people on purpose.
rick strassman
Well, it's the – you know, it represents a certain system of belief that if you sacrifice, then you'll have a benefit.
Yeah, and it could be rain.
It could be crops.
joe rogan
The wildest one I ever heard of was the Aztec one.
Was it Montezuma that did it?
Someone sacrificed – I want to say it was something crazy, like 80,000 slaves over a period of just a couple of weeks.
I think they finished building a pyramid, and then after they built the pyramid, they sacrificed all the slaves, like some insane number.
It might not have been 80,000, but it was something really crazy like that.
What is the name of the pyramid?
It's Teotihuacan.
I don't know how to pronounce it.
Here it is.
rick strassman
Yeah, people come up with crazy ideas.
joe rogan
Some conquistadors wrote about Sompantli and its towers, estimating that the rack alone contained 130,000 skulls, but historians and archaeologists knew that the conquistadors were prone to exaggerating the horrors of human sacrifice to demonize the Mexico culture.
As the centuries passed, scholars began to wonder whether, I don't know how to say that word, Zompantli had ever existed.
So what is that saying?
jamie vernon
I thought it was actually talking about things, but I read it too fast.
This is about the same place you just mentioned.
I don't want to say it either.
joe rogan
Oh, no, no, no, it's not the same, that's not the same word.
Oh, okay.
It's, uh, fuck.
Um, it's like T-E-O, T-O-K-O-N. It's a very complex word.
I'm gonna fuck it up.
jamie vernon
Not, not that?
joe rogan
That's it.
T-O-T-O-N, right?
Is that it?
Is that, no.
jamie vernon
That's a city.
joe rogan
No, that's not the name.
Google, just Google Aztec Pyramids, Aztec Pyramid 80,000 sacrifices.
jamie vernon
That's how I got to this.
It sucks, but I heard 1,000s performed sacrifices were performed there, but I don't know about that one time.
joe rogan
Maybe that is it.
Is that a pyramid?
The Pyramid of Tenochtitlan?
jamie vernon
Yes, or it's a city.
joe rogan
Well, I should have had that story at my fingertips.
But the point being, they did sacrifice some fucking insane number of people upon completion.
Like, why do these cultures believe in these mass sacrifices like that?
Like, what do you think caused that kind of horrific thinking?
rick strassman
I just don't know.
You know, it's incomprehensible.
joe rogan
Especially if they were a psychedelic culture.
rick strassman
Well, I mean you have to wonder if the psychedelics strengthened their belief that what they were doing was the right thing to do.
joe rogan
Right.
rick strassman
Because if you have pre-existing beliefs, they're often magnified by psychedelics.
joe rogan
Right.
That's a good point.
Especially if you're living in a really rough part of the world and a really rough time in history.
rick strassman
Well, you interviewed that guy, Brian, who's got the book out on early Christianity and psychedelics.
joe rogan
Brian Moralescu.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's called The Immortality Key.
rick strassman
What do you think of that theory?
joe rogan
It's fascinating.
Well, they have real physical evidence because of the vessels.
They have real physical evidence that there's some lysergic acid and some various ergots, like there's some forms of ergot that they can find residue of inside the wine vessels.
So these wine vessels weren't just wine, they were throwing in a bunch of psychedelic compounds into the wine, and that's what they did with all wine.
And now that they have, like, physical evidence of these vessels that has trace elements of this psychedelic compound, they can be sure that this is what was going on.
And this is why when they would talk about drinking wine and having these visions and...
I mean, this is where...
Democracy came from.
These fucks invented democracy doing this.
And they were probably all tripping balls.
rick strassman
Yeah, so what do you think that the relationship is between, you know, the Kaikion, for example, and early Christianity?
That's the part I didn't quite understand.
joe rogan
In what way didn't you understand?
rick strassman
Well, you know, were the thoughts new that were induced by the Kaikion, or were they already there, and the Kaikion just magnified them and made them more devoted to those ideas?
joe rogan
That's interesting.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I mean, we'd have to find the origin of all of their ideas because it was such an incredible time period for people thinking things through and communicating and devising ways to live and saying things that to this day people quote as wise words.
rick strassman
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you know, our sacred literature is pretty old.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
There's not much new.
There's the Bible.
There's the Greek philosophers.
joe rogan
What did you think of those scholars from Israel that were connecting Moses' burning bush to DMT? Yeah, that's an interesting idea.
rick strassman
Yeah, it's a psychologist, Benny Shanon.
Yeah, so he proposed that the burning bush was an acacia, and it was emitting fumes of DMT, and that's how Moses experienced, you know, the vision of the angel speaking to him.
I mean, it could be true, but it doesn't necessarily explain the broader phenomenon of the prophetic state because it was only Moses that one time.
It doesn't really explain Isaiah or Ezekiel or other prophets.
joe rogan
Other prophets having experiences?
rick strassman
Other prophets actually being exposed or taking an exogenous psychedelic agent.
joe rogan
So that's not talked about at all?
rick strassman
No.
Well, let's see.
There are certain things that stimulate your prophecy, like a good meal and being happy and good music.
You know, the mana may be, you know, some people have suggested the mana has got a lysergic acid ingredient, and that's why the Hebrews were experiencing their visions in the desert.
You know, but the only, like, you know, clear-cut, you know, plant and, you know, person epiphany is Moses at the bush.
Some people believe that the incense in the tabernacle or in the altar had cannabis in it.
So, but there's not...
joe rogan
Yeah, I've heard that before.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
You know, but the whole presence of endogenous DMT kind of makes it moot whether or not people took, you know, plants or substances in the Bible or any of this old spiritual literature because you have endogenous DMT. You've got the means to experience visions without taking anything in.
joe rogan
Have you ever attempted to achieve visions without the use of the chemical?
Like, have you ever attempted to do it through kundalini yoga?
Because that's one way that I have talked to people that have had these experiences.
They said you can get pretty damn close with yoga.
rick strassman
Well, and with holotropic breathing, too.
joe rogan
Have you done either one of those?
rick strassman
I've done holotropic breathing.
joe rogan
Could you explain how that works?
rick strassman
Yeah, the first time was very psychedelic.
Well, you hyperventilate deep and long for as long as you can.
joe rogan
It might be 5 minutes, might be 10 minutes, might be 15. When you say hyperventilating, like, what's the schedule on the internet?
Like, how are you doing?
rick strassman
No, it's very deep and very fast.
joe rogan
Very deep and very fast.
Okay.
rick strassman
Yeah.
And you do it and your hands kind of spasm up from the changes in the astid base balance.
joe rogan
Really?
rick strassman
Oh, yeah.
joe rogan
Your hands spasm?
rick strassman
Yeah, your feet.
Your lips begin tingling.
joe rogan
She'd be sitting down when you're doing this?
rick strassman
Oh yeah, you need to be screened.
Really?
I mean, you need to make certain that your heart's in good shape and you're not on any medications that might interact badly with being that out of it.
Yeah, it's a whole system.
It's like tripping without drugs and they've got a...
joe rogan
How long do you do it for?
Before you start the...
rick strassman
You know, five minutes, ten minutes, or half hour.
I mean, it just depends.
You can snap into it real quickly or it might take a long time.
joe rogan
I wonder how much of that is what runner's high is.
rick strassman
It could be.
Well, so we studied runner's high for melatonin levels back in the 1980s and 1990s.
There was a marathon in the winter on Sandia Crest, which is like 10,000 feet to 10,000 feet.
And these guys run a marathon along Zendia Crest.
And I was looking for some way to stimulate melatonin.
And so I looked at the stress level of those guys and figured if anybody is inducing enough stress on themselves to raise melatonin, naturally it would be them.
So we did that and we found some increases.
We tried blocking it with naloxone and those were the kind of studies that I was doing.
Yeah, and after a certain point, you just switch and you're in this very highly altered state.
joe rogan
And how long does it last?
rick strassman
Well, you stop doing the breathing once that happens.
I don't know, maybe 10-15 minutes?
joe rogan
And so what would be akin to it?
Is it like mushrooms?
Is it like eating edible marijuana?
What is it?
rick strassman
The experience that I had, as I remember, I've only done it once, like really breakthrough.
It was like MDMA. Really?
Yeah.
This great clarity.
unidentified
Ooh.
joe rogan
Really?
rick strassman
Yeah, but I think people have a range of experiences.
joe rogan
What do you think is happening?
Like, what is causing that euphoric sort of sensation, like, pharmacologically?
rick strassman
Well, you know, it isn't always euphoric.
For some people it's really very difficult.
There's throwing up and there's...
joe rogan
Oh, really?
rick strassman
...vomiting.
And, yeah, you know, people can get pretty...
You know, it's a very powerful technique.
Yeah, and I'm not, you know, recommending that anybody start doing it.
joe rogan
Can people overdose?
Can they over-breathe?
rick strassman
Not that I've heard of.
joe rogan
That's good news.
rick strassman
Well, you know, I'm familiar with their network and they're pretty well trained people.
joe rogan
Wow.
So there's a whole place you could go and you can be guided through these sort of breathing sessions.
Is that what they do?
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, Stan Groff, have you heard of Stan?
joe rogan
Yes.
rick strassman
Yeah.
You know, Stan was that Czech psychiatrist who did a lot of LSD research.
And Stan was at the University of Maryland for a while, working with Bill Richards and those guys.
And once they stopped, you know, once the compounds, once psychedelics were scheduled and all human research ended, you know, Stan moved on and in the meantime developed this, you know, holotropic breathwork.
joe rogan
Wow.
rick strassman
And he's trained hundreds of therapists in the technique.
joe rogan
Did he get it from any sort of indigenous ritual or some ancient civilization ritual?
rick strassman
I'm trying to remember where he got it from.
I think there was some school of psychotherapy, kind of obscure, and I think.
I'm just not sure.
You know, it was going around, and he picked it up, and he ran.
joe rogan
What I was getting at is, like, is there a culture that exists anywhere that also knew about this that was doing this a long time ago?
rick strassman
I'm sure, but I don't know.
joe rogan
Nothing we know of?
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
I'm just real curious.
They say ayahuasca is one of the first DMT experiences that people have had.
But I wonder how did they figure out how to put those two things together so you could just eat it?
rick strassman
Well, if you ask them, they will tell you the plant stole them.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Yeah, but how that works...
joe rogan
But how do they know?
They weren't alive back then.
That's thousands of years old.
That's nonsense.
rick strassman
Well, it could be King Solomon.
joe rogan
It could be.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Or, yeah, I mean...
joe rogan
It seems so wild that someone figured out how to combine one thing that has DMT in it and another thing that's an MAO inhibitor so that your body will just absorb it.
Like, that they figured that out in the jungle.
rick strassman
One thing that they may have been doing is the vine, the banisteriopsis, has got the beta-carbolines in it, the harmine, harmoline, MAO inhibitors.
And they use that as like a screening tool.
If they're on the banisteriopsis, they can taste it.
Other plants and the essence of what's in that other plant comes through in a way that isn't normally the case.
joe rogan
Oh, wow.
rick strassman
So they may have their antennas up, so to speak, by being on the MAO inhibitor beta-carbolines all the while and experimenting with what plants do what.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
So just by using that as, did you say, as like a regulator?
rick strassman
Well, like radar or something.
You know, they can pick stuff up that otherwise is invisible.
You know, within the plant.
joe rogan
We've got to, I mean, animals must have something similar too, right?
I mean, there's got to be a reason why they only eat specific types of grasses and avoid other ones.
Does it just taste?
Because I know that certain grasses and certain plants will actually change their flavor profile if they think cows are eating them or if deers are eating them.
rick strassman
Oh, really?
That's interesting.
joe rogan
They said that about acacia.
The acacia tree, there was a thing they were reading about giraffes who wouldn't eat the leaves.
Of these trees, and it turns out they were downwind from trees that these giraffes were eating.
So these giraffes were eating, the wind goes down, it changes the flavor profile of all these other plants.
So whether it's through the mycelium in the ground, however they're communicating.
But they've even done it to the point where they've played sounds of like caterpillars chewing on leaves, and that causes the change in the flavor profile to the leaves.
They have senses, some weird senses.
rick strassman
Well, and there are stories of animals getting intoxicated.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
rick strassman
For sure, right?
Alcohol, you know, fermented fruit, other things.
joe rogan
Don't elephants love that?
rick strassman
Yeah.
And, you know, catnip and, you know, cot.
They discovered, you know, cot from goats eating the leaves and they would get frisky.
joe rogan
Have you ever tried cotton?
rick strassman
I was growing some cotton in my greenhouse back in the day.
Is that legal?
You know, in New Mexico, probably.
joe rogan
And that stuff is like an amphetamine, right?
rick strassman
Yeah, it's a stimulant.
joe rogan
Did you enjoy it?
rick strassman
It was okay.
It was okay.
joe rogan
Did you want to take over a boat?
rick strassman
No, it's a small plant.
I only got a couple of leaves.
joe rogan
It seems like the preferred drug of pirates, right?
rick strassman
Right.
joe rogan
They love that stuff.
They always scare people with, oh, they're on the cot.
Oh, Jesus.
I just wanted to know what the actual, was it like?
rick strassman
It's like caffeine, pretty much.
unidentified
Really?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
Well, in the Middle East, in more traditional societies that are really into cot, they chew cot and the city council or the village council gets together, they chew cot and they make their decisions.
joe rogan
Wow.
rick strassman
I guess it would be like, you know, chewing coca leaves.
joe rogan
Right.
The chewing coca leaves is fascinating, too, because so many people think that there's actually like a health benefit to chewing coca leaves.
It's actually probably good for you.
It's just cocaine.
How they get it is from coca leaves, so you can't have coca leaves.
rick strassman
Well, it's like cot.
They extract, you know, cathinone from cot.
joe rogan
What's cathinone?
rick strassman
It's the active ingredient in cot, like cocaine is in coca.
And then you start manipulating the cathinone molecule, and you come up with bath salts, more or less.
joe rogan
Oh, boy.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
Oh, my God.
rick strassman
It's a good drug gone bad.
joe rogan
Well, that was a weird time in history, right, where people would go to, like, drugstores or gas stations, rather, and buy what they would call bath salts.
It says, not for human consumption.
And people would buy it and just kill each other on it.
That was a wild time where people found out that you could get that.
rick strassman
Yeah.
Well, it's kind of like that kind of THC, CBD you were talking about before the show.
Yes.
unidentified
Delta 9. Delta 9. It's legal.
rick strassman
And it's very powerful, you say, huh?
joe rogan
Yes.
It's legitimate.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
They have it a lot around here, too.
Like, they have stores that they sell it.
And there was, like, some sort of an amendment to get rid of it.
And I think it got knocked down.
I'm pretty sure that was the story behind it.
But they have, like, a fake version of marijuana here that's legal.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's like, okay.
rick strassman
Well, you know, they're designing new drugs every day.
joe rogan
Yeah.
rick strassman
Yeah.
joe rogan
They're coming up with new versions of drugs that are illegal.
unidentified
Yeah.
rick strassman
Well, and these psychedelic startups are designing new drugs as well.
joe rogan
That's wild.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Like, if someone figures out a better acid.
rick strassman
A better acid, a longer DMT. Yeah.
You know, something that lasted maybe an hour instead of just a half hour.
joe rogan
Well, what you guys were doing with IVs, how long was the drip?
And could you have prolonged that experience?
Like, what was the longest one you did with people?
rick strassman
Well, you know, we just gave it as a push, like as a bolus.
Like I would inject the drug over 30 seconds and then clear the line for 15 more seconds with salt water.
joe rogan
And so is it from an IV bag or is it just straight into the tube that's attached to the...
rick strassman
It was, you know, from a syringe.
joe rogan
Okay, so it's not going...
Oh, okay.
I was under the impression it was an IV drip.
I thought it was like, that's interesting.
Like, how would you regulate...
rick strassman
Well, one study that we did was an attempt to cause tolerance to a closely spaced repeated dosing of DMT. You know, like if you take LSD every day for a few days, you stop responding.
joe rogan
Right.
rick strassman
And there were some studies giving DMT to see if you could develop tolerance, but you couldn't.
So I thought maybe if you spaced the injections close enough together, that was an issue regarding half-life.
joe rogan
That's interesting to hear you say that because I had always heard for some reason that if you do TMT next to like a recent TMT trip like 10 minutes ago, do it again in 10 minutes, like you won't be able to do it.
But it's not true at all.
I've had that experience.
I've done it multiple times in a day and the most potent one was the last one.
rick strassman
Exactly.
That's more or less what we found, is that we spaced injections every half hour.
And there'd be a real progression of the effects over the course of the morning.
And as a result of those data, a group at Imperial College in London is developing an infusion model to maintain the state for at least a half hour.
joe rogan
So when you're doing it, you're injecting, and then in 30 minutes you're injecting again?
rick strassman
Yeah, they'd come down, and we would spend maybe 10-15 minutes processing, and then they'd get ready for the second dose.
joe rogan
So when you say processing, like explaining what you saw, talking about it?
rick strassman
Yeah, I would ask them how it was and what came up.
It was a pretty packed 10-15 minutes too, I'll tell you.
joe rogan
Dude, you're like cleaning them up and sending them right back into space.
rick strassman
It was a lot of fun.
People really got a lot of good work done during that, you know, in the course of that morning.
I'm sure.
Usually, you know, they'd be exhausted after the third dose like I can't do anymore.
And, you know, we would give them the fourth dose and they would experience this great resolution.
joe rogan
Really?
rick strassman
Of whatever, you know, troubles came up over the course of the morning.
joe rogan
Wow.
rick strassman
Yeah, I'm collaborating with a group at UCLA that's going to use probably repeated dosing of DMT in post-traumatic stress disorder.
joe rogan
That's amazing.
rick strassman
And it'll be good because we'll be able to do therapy in between the individual injections.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
And so what if you come across an issue that's going to take more time to resolve, like you're saying, be able to do therapy?
Will you postpone the next treatment?
rick strassman
I mean, if you gave four doses over the course of a morning, You know, stuff will come up, and you'll resolve it more or less by the fourth dose, but it isn't the end of treatment.
I mean, you would be in treatment already in some form or another, and with the stuff that came up during the DMT sessions, you would have that as Christopher the Mill in your future work.
joe rogan
What I was getting at was that, like, say if someone is having a bad experience, and say if they're doing this four-dose thing, but they have a really bad experience around dose number three, would you allow them to do dose four, or would you have to have a conversation with them?
rick strassman
Yeah, you'd have to ask them.
joe rogan
And you would just do it based on their word, or is there like a protocol for when you pull a patient?
rick strassman
Well, the study is still being designed, but, you know, the standard of care would be if somebody says no, I mean, that means no.
joe rogan
Right, right.
And if someone says yes, that means go ahead, even if you might think they might be a little slightly unhinged at this point?
rick strassman
Well, you know, stressed or uncertain as what's next.
Like in our study, after the third dose, a lot of people felt up against their ropes and they'd say no.
Has anybody ever dropped out?
And I would say, not yet.
And everybody went ahead.
And they were glad they did.
They could kind of metabolize the stuff that had been stirred up.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's the fine line between whether you push someone to keep going or whether you'd say, let's take a break.
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, safety first.
joe rogan
Yeah, for sure.
Could you imagine a world where there are places that would take care of people the way your studies were run?
That would do it that way?
I mean, is that achievable in our lifetime?
There could be a place where...
People that know what they're doing, certified, have everything locked down, doing it the right way, do it exactly the way you did to those patients.
rick strassman
Well, it wouldn't be exactly the same.
I mean, I had my own style.
joe rogan
I'm sure you would.
It wouldn't be as fun.
rick strassman
It might not be as fun.
But, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, why not?
joe rogan
Yeah, well, why not?
I mean, I think one of the really nice things is that there's a lot of support for it on the right now because they realize the effect that it has on soldiers.
rick strassman
Vets.
Yeah, vet care.
joe rogan
Vet care.
Yeah.
That's a big one because everyone's always looking to give some relief to heroes that come back with PTSD and this is the way to do it.
It's the best way to do it.
rick strassman
I think that's going to get the most funding, the most support.
joe rogan
People got to realize that this is not a left or right issue.
This is a human issue.
rick strassman
I mean, we should treat our veterans really carefully, lovingly.
joe rogan
Yeah, 100%.
And for all human beings, not just PTSD from that, but PTSD from being attacked, car accidents.
People have all sorts of traumatic memories from their youth.
This is not just for that.
It's for anybody with these horrific patterns in their head that are caused by trauma.
rick strassman
Well, you were talking about being uploaded to a computer and how horrible that would be.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Worst case scenario.
rick strassman
Worst case scenario.
joe rogan
I was just trying to look at the worst possible version would be you stuck in a computer box, like looking at the world but not able to move or act.
rick strassman
But there might not be any trauma.
Beyond that, anyway.
Maybe.
joe rogan
I just would think that a disassociated brain...
Imagine if you found out that your thinking wasn't just your brain, that your heart was actually involved, and that all the neurons that are around the heart actually work in conjunction with the brain, but that a brain disassociated from the heart is always a psycho.
Like so if everybody who did get their brain uploaded somewhere, they just popped out on the other end like a three-quarter human psycho.
rick strassman
Yeah, well, so you're using the biology to support like this philosophical idea.
joe rogan
Sort of.
The philosophical idea is the most interesting because I think if people really do freeze their brain and they really do boot that sucker back up and you get drawn from heaven, Back into this, like, earthly realm inside of a fish tank with a bunch of wires attached to you.
You're floating in some super serum.
Like, fuck.
rick strassman
Yeah, well, I mean, it could be great.
joe rogan
Maybe.
rick strassman
Maybe.
joe rogan
Yeah, if you've got a good handler.
Somebody gives you the right juice.
Those that stimulate different parts of the brain.
They give you orgasm, fix your memory.
rick strassman
Well, you know, set and setting.
Yeah, you need the technologist to be a nice guy.
joe rogan
You have to trust people to fuck with your brain.
Why would they have any incentive to help hold the end of the bargain?
Maybe they fold some of those online Bitcoin places.
Maybe they fold up shop.
rick strassman
Well, you've read that, what's it called?
It's the story that is the basis for Total Recall.
We can get it for you.
We can buy it for you wholesale.
It's by PK Dick.
And these people enter into this implant kind of state and they have adventures and whatnot.
joe rogan
I think we are 100% on our way to that.
I think we're 100%.
I don't think they're stopping us.
I think all they're going to have to do is continue with just a general...
Virtual reality was non-existent 20 years ago.
Nobody gave a shit about virtual reality because the technology wasn't up to date.
It wasn't something that got discussed.
Every now and then you hear about somebody who had a headset and, oh, it's crazy.
We tried it out.
And I remember doing it, I forget what year it was, but Duncan Trussell had one at his house.
It was very, very pixelated.
I think it was the Oculus.
Very, very pixelated.
And we put this thing on and we're moving around with it.
No, it wasn't the Oculus.
It was the other one.
What's that?
unidentified
Vive.
joe rogan
The Vive.
HTC Vive, right?
That's what it was.
And so we're moving around with this thing, and I remember thinking, wow, this is just the beginning.
This thing's going to get really bizarre.
And then a couple of years later, Duncan had one, and he said, this one's so much better.
And he gave me this one, and you have this experience where you're in the ocean, and a whale swims by you.
It's wild.
You're like underwater with this thing, and I'm like, whoa.
And that was quite a while ago.
We are, whatever it is, if it's 10 years or if it's 20 years, because 20 years ago, again, nobody cared about VR. If it's 20 years from now, whatever it's going to be, whatever year it is, they're going to have something that replicates reality, like, down to every moment.
Down to touch, there'll be haptic feedback, there'll be something that, like, hijacks your nervous system and thinks your feet are on the ground.
You're going to replicate the feel of gravity.
rick strassman
Yeah, well, you know, I think it's going to kind of detach you from reality, won't it?
joe rogan
100%.
rick strassman
Yeah, so what's the point of that?
joe rogan
Well, I don't think it's good for us, but I just think it's inevitable.
I think if we really do come up with a way to live in, like, Avatar land and fly around on dragons and live in some bizarre fake universe...
We're going to do it.
rick strassman
I guess some people will.
Well, yeah, some people will.
joe rogan
I think a lot of people will, man.
I think it's going to be a lot of people's number one pastime.
Why would you live regular life, stupid?
Why would you live regular life when it's indistinguishable from regular life and you could be on a pirate ship?
rick strassman
Yeah, I kind of wonder how much it would be adopted by the Indian reservations that I live within.
joe rogan
Oh, for sure.
That would be probably the first place they implement it.
rick strassman
Yeah, you know, because they're pretty much living in nature, but they're not very happy, a lot of them.
You know, they drink and there's unemployment and feuds and things, which never really get very far.
So you might think the more traditionalists wouldn't go for it, but the kids, you know, the kids, because life is rather bleak.
joe rogan
Well, those reservations were the places where mixed martial arts first thrived in California.
It was illegal in the state of California, but they would hold their own, they have their own laws, they have their own rules.
So they would hold these events at these Native American reservations, and we would go to there.
That was where that kind of saved a lot of those promotions, the early MMA promotions.
The fact they could put on some fights and it also gave these guys a chance to develop in a state where MMA was completely illegal.
So Native American reservations have a history of doing things before anybody else was allowed to do them because they can write their own laws.
If they decided, imagine that.
They decided to make their own psychedelic therapy at all these Native American casinos.
rick strassman
Well, you know, there's that long history of the Native American church that's been using mescaline-containing peyote forever.
That's a pretty small segment of the Native population, but still it's established and protected.
That's the reason for the Religious Freedom Restoration Act was You know, peyote use, that was the primary driver.
joe rogan
So that was the first one before they got to the ayahuasca church?
rick strassman
Yeah.
Yeah, the ayahuasca church relied on that ruling as support.
joe rogan
Both ayahuasca churches, there's two different ones, right?
Do both of them have similar rituals?
rick strassman
No, they're different.
The UDV, like I mentioned, is kind of straight-laced.
You're in chairs, you have lights, you have a leader.
The other group is called the Santo Daime, and it's a bit more free-form.
There's singing and there's dancing.
joe rogan
Sounds like more fun.
rick strassman
It's more fun, you know, fun, capital F, fun.
joe rogan
And are they doing that under the influence, all the singing and dancing?
rick strassman
Oh, yeah.
joe rogan
Wow.
rick strassman
Yeah, they drink tea all night.
They drink ayahuasca.
joe rogan
Oh, boy.
rick strassman
Yeah, the ceremonies tend to involve more ingestion.
joe rogan
Now, has anybody studied those folks?
Because that sounds like they'd be even happier than the other ones you talked about.
rick strassman
Yeah, I'm not familiar.
You know, I'm not super familiar with that literature.
What I've read mostly is the UDV has been studied.
And it's because of their interest in establishing that the use is safe and effective and helpful.
joe rogan
Well, it'd be really interesting to see the two of them studied, you know, see the contrast between the singing and dancing and the way the other people would do it like they're in sort of a mainstream Christian church.
rick strassman
Yeah, a side-to-side comparison.
You know, I would think those data would be out there, but maybe not separated in that exact same manner.
joe rogan
I think we've been doing this for almost four hours.
Four hours.
Can you imagine that?
Time flew.
rick strassman
Time flew.
joe rogan
Time flew, Rick.
Thank you, man.
Thanks for coming on.
Your book, The Psychedelic Handbook, is available right now.
There it is.
And this is the novel that you wrote, Joseph Levy Escapes Death.
unidentified
That is available as well.
rick strassman
Well, you could read the comment by, you know, Graham, a disturbing and, you know, something or another's tale.
You know, Graham likes the Joseph Levy book.
joe rogan
Well, if Graham likes it, I'm sure I'll like it too.
rick strassman
Yeah, it's entertaining.
joe rogan
I enjoyed talking to you, man.
It was a lot of fun.
It really was.
It was great.
I'm glad we finally did it.
rick strassman
Yeah, finally.
joe rogan
Let's do it again.
We do it again?
rick strassman
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
It was fun, right?
rick strassman
I would like to do it again.
You're up for it.
unidentified
Let's go!
rick strassman
Yeah.
unidentified
All right.
joe rogan
Thank you.
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