Christopher Mellon, a 20-year U.S. government veteran and former Senate Intelligence Committee director, traces his UFO fascination back to a 1960s boarding school film of an unexplained golden disk. He highlights the 2004 Nimitz incident—where pilots saw tic-tac-shaped objects defying known physics—and the Pentagon’s long-standing secrecy, fueled by Cold War-era panels like the 1953 Robertson Panel. Unreleased Navy footage and propulsion anomalies (e.g., supersonic speeds without sonic booms) suggest technology far beyond human capabilities, yet stigma persists despite Clinton-era investigations and 2017 disclosures. Mellon advocates for systematic study, like France’s approach or mining missile defense data, warning that unchecked secrecy risks overlooking potential breakthroughs—or threats—from unidentified aerial phenomena. [Automatically generated summary]
My name is Chris Mellon, and I spent about 20 years working for Uncle Sam, worked in the Senate for the Intelligence Committee, and for Senator Cohen, also did some Armed Services Committee work.
When he was asked to become Secretary of Defense, He asked me if I would like to go with him to the Pentagon, be part of his team, and I was honored and gladly accepted.
So I then served for four years in the Defense Department with Senator Cohen, Secretary Cohen at that point.
In various positions, all intelligence-related and security-related.
And then I was asked to stay on after Clinton departed.
And so I worked for Secretary Rumsfeld and then went back to the Senate Intelligence Committee as the Minority Staff Director shortly before the Second Iraq War.
I was seven years old at a boarding school and the principal of the school, a friend of his, had photographed a video, an old reel-to-reel Kodak movie camera, had taken a movie, a home movie of a video of a UFO flying in Beautiful blue skies,
cumulus clouds, huge golden disk that comes into the picture and banks, goes into a cloud, and it disappears into this sort of wispy cloud in a way that would be very, very hard, I think, to fake somehow, particularly in those days with no computer-generated imagery.
And it comes out the other side and then sort of goes off over the horizon.
And I was, you know, stunned and flabbergasted.
Myself and all the other kids ran outside that night and were looking at the stars.
And it just sparked my curiosity, a lifelong curiosity.
Very rarely, I looked for openings, I looked for opportunities.
So, for example, you know, the stigma is so great that you're reluctant, obviously, to raise that issue.
A couple times there were some natural opportunities.
So one of my colleagues on the Intelligence Committee was going to Hawaii for some oversight trips, meetings, and he went to the Maui Space Optical Tracking Facility.
And I said to him, why are you there?
Why don't you just check and see?
Do they ever see anything weird they can't explain and so forth?
So he did, and Pete called me up and said, hey, you wouldn't believe this.
I've got this videotape here.
And it shows these weird things.
And so I talked to the Air Force people.
They sent the tape to us.
Turns out it was totally unclassified.
I showed it to Senator Cohen and some others, and it ended up on national TV, actually, but it didn't generate any further response.
Everybody just kind of threw their hands up in the air and said, well, you know, that's interesting, but...
We don't know what to do with it.
It was Ted Koppel's Nightline show that this tape was played on.
It showed sort of five objects moving parallel to the ground, possibly in formation.
They're in the atmosphere because they're burning, they're interacting with something.
You know, there's plasma coming off them, which wouldn't presumably be happening in space.
I concealed my interest in the topic for years and very carefully and confided to a few trustworthy friends, had a few heart-to-heart talks with a couple individuals when I found a fellow traveler who was interested in this topic, but by and large, absolutely wanted to conceal that and not reveal that.
There was a request that came to me once that I think was from President Clinton, and it was one of the astronauts claimed to have seen a UFO out at Edwards Air Force Base, and it was videotaped, he said.
And he described this in his memoir and wanted the president to get hold of the tape, of the video.
And Secretary Cohen came back to the Pentagon from a meeting, and a message came down to me to go to try to find this tape.
And unfortunately, I got nowhere with that.
The Air Force was adamant that there was no such tape, there was no such information.
Anything they had on UFOs had been destroyed.
So I had one of these situations that's very common in this area, which is you have just Two apparently credible sources, but utterly conflicting, irreconcilable information, which seems to happen often in this field.
Now, being as you were in government and very close to literally the machine that runs the world, what's the general perception when people are discussing these things in Washington?
What's the general perception of what's going on with these things?
This happened after the New York Times article and subsequent press beginning in 2017, December 2017. And that sort of gave people permission to talk about this.
And I've actually had Pentagon friends who said, you know, this is kind of cool.
We don't have to go in the closet to talk about this anymore.
It was the Robertson Panel Commission, 1953, and they concluded during those Cold War days that this was a Potential threat to national security because UFO reports might overwhelm our air defense and communication system and that the Soviets might spook the public and somehow manipulate this issue.
So they actually advocated in writing that this issue be debunked and discredited and the government went ahead and did so extremely successfully, unfortunately.
Because he was trying to carry out his mandate that the Air Force had given him.
As you may recall, in one instance he went to Michigan and famously declared that the people of Michigan were misconstruing swamp gas for flying objects.
And so Gerald Ford, who was representing that district, got incensed, as did the local population, and Congress took a fleeting interest in the topic.
And Dr. Hynek was very embarrassed, and understandably so.
It was really quite insulting to these people who had very clear sightings of these objects.
So he did eventually change his view publicly and was very critical of Project Blue Book.
Was all this stuff, like being inside the government and knowing how prevalent these sightings are and how credible some of them are, was it frustrating to you to be a part of this and to know that this information is kind of being squashed and distorted?
Doing reconnaissance missions who were seeing some very unusual lights.
And the Directorate of Science and Technology at CIA did an extensive analysis and found a plausible explanation for what they had seen that was not extraterrestrial.
And so they published an article on that.
It was a good article, a good piece of research.
But that was about the only time I ever saw anything in writing about this subject, which the government said it wasn't following, it wasn't interested in.
I had friends who would call me up.
I had a Navy friend who was a pilot, and he said, you wouldn't believe what happened at our base today.
There was a plane up, and there was a UFO flying around it, and it landed, and he knew I was interested in this from college days, and he called me up with his hair on fire to tell me about this incident, but that kind of thing was not going up through channels.
So people in the Pentagon, to the best of my knowledge, all the way up to the SecDef, were not hearing or seeing any of these reports.
It wasn't until I met Lou Elizondo and his group and some of the Navy guys and talked to the pilots about what was happening on the East Coast from 2015 onward and the Nimitz incident that I found out that this activity had been going on and just wasn't being reported.
Well, specifically in the case of the Navy in 2016, just today, I believe, or yesterday, DOD announced that they're going to do an IG investigation of this incident, of this phenomenon.
And when Dave and the other F-18 landed, there was no interest on the part of the intelligence officers of doing anything really other than ridiculing them.
So they came out, you know, with tin hats on and foil hats, and they were playing Men in Black's song or something.
But that case was...
Phenomenal because there were so many witnesses and so many different sensor systems that were verifying independently the visual reporting.
So there were multiple radars, there were infrared systems, perfect viewing conditions, broad daylight, middle of the afternoon, multiple aircraft, and all of the data agrees that these craft are doing things that we thought were impossible.
What happened was he and his wingman were vectored to intercept that Tic Tac at that point when they arrived and looked down, they saw it moving around and they saw the water roiled.
In fact, I think first they saw the water before they saw the Tic Tac.
They saw something unusual.
It looked like white water breaking on a reef kind of thing.
And then they saw the Tic Tac and then Dave dove down to get close to it and it reacted to his presence, turned around, Viewed him and then started taking countermeasures.
And it was clear to the pilots in both aircraft that this thing maintained a dominant position throughout their engagement with it, that it could easily have done what it wanted to them.
They had no chance really of getting behind it or getting the upper hand in that engagement.
Then when he went and reported this that's when things get weird right because people have to dissect this information and look at this guy Commander Fravor very respected guy not the type of person who makes up wacky stories then when it's supported by all this data I think that's what that's probably one of the biggest ones that led to being included in the New York Times, right?
They didn't do it initially, but ultimately they didn't have much choice.
And I think the reason that they finally did is because we had taken this issue to Congress.
I contacted some former colleagues on the committee and said, you guys really ought to look at this.
I mean, it sounds crazy, but give me a chance here.
And so a couple of them started taking interest.
Some of the staffers started meeting with some of the pilots.
When they started requesting briefings, that Coming from the Senate Armed Services and Intelligence Committees, that went up the flagpole to the top.
And the Navy brass and the senior Pentagon civilians in the Office of the Secretary of Defense became aware that these committees are taking an official interest now.
And we can't fool around with this.
And we have to really be straight and put it out there.
At that point, they couldn't tell them in private, yeah, this is real, and then publicly deny it wasn't.
The great shift in our time, from UFOs being ridiculed, being these silly things that tinfoil hat conspiracy theory people believe in, to the Defense Department agreeing that this is an issue.
We want to be clear-headed when we discuss this because it's such...
It's such an easily ridiculed thing.
You know, it's one of those things like psychics and Bigfoot.
You bring it up and people just automatically start rolling their eyes.
But statistically, if you just look at the size of the universe and you look at the fact that there's so many Goldilocks zone planets that they've already discovered, and then also the wide variety of life that exists in various conditions on Earth, who knows, right?
Whether or not these things are living in the ocean.
This is what's bizarre to me, is there's a lot of these sightings.
The one in Hawaii recently, and there's another one that Jeremy Corbell leaked, this photograph that shows something disappearing into the ocean.
There seems to be multiple sightings and multiple witnesses that discuss things going into the ocean.
In terms of backing up on your question there a little bit, you know, people ask me, do you believe in aliens?
And that's really not the question or the issue for most people.
There are probably, in an infinite universe, an infinite number of alien civilizations.
The question is, you know, could we ever communicate with them or have contact, right?
So what's interesting about that to me, in part, is that We have NASA spending billions to try to find alien life, even if it's microbial.
We have Yuri Milner spending hundreds of millions and supporting the SETI program.
And meanwhile, we have these things flying around our atmosphere.
That we're seeing on the radar that kind of look and act like what you might expect if somebody sent a probe.
If somebody followed the trajectory, we're on ourselves today.
And they're doing incredible things that we don't understand, and yet the scientific community and the government have not wanted to dare to ask the question in this context that they ask every day in this other context with NASA and spend billions of dollars on.
And there's no crosstalk.
You know, scientifically, we would expect actually, you know, they're listening for these signals from outer space, but it's more efficient to send probes and it's safer.
And that's what we are doing ourselves.
And so that's what would probably be more likely.
A probe would give more information.
It wouldn't reveal the location or the source of the civilization that was sending it.
You know, it's more dynamic and versatile.
It could get closer to the target, etc.
There's all kinds of advantages, including energy.
And it would be easy for a civilization more advanced than ours, we're getting on the cusp of this ourselves, to create using artificial intelligence probes that were self-sufficient, launch them out in whatever numbers, let them go see what they find and report back.
And that's entirely plausible.
There's no scientific reason for thinking that that couldn't happen.
Moreover, if even one spacefaring society started to expand outward as we are in our galaxy, in the Milky Way, within a tiny fraction of the lifetime of the Milky Way, they could explore and colonize the entire galaxy.
So even if, you know, they haven't achieved superluminal travel, they can't violate the speed of light and go faster than that, if they went, say, 20% the speed of light, And just continued to steadily expand their domain and explore outward in the space of two or three million years, they could have gone from one end of the galaxy to the other.
So, you know, it's not an unreasonable proposition.
It's a question of getting the facts.
And it's about time some of us think that we take it seriously and start looking at it.
Some people suspect, as you suggest, that it could be ultra-terrestrial.
It could be something inherently from our planet under the ocean that's been here forever.
For a long, long time, perhaps a way station that some AI established that just is a waypoint here and monitors what's going on in this planet and stays under the ocean, comes out, looks around, reports back, and just has been doing that for thousands of years, but not aliens coming and going.
There's all manner of theories, that's one of them.
But I would say that on the inside, the people that are really close to this in the Pentagon, They face the dilemma we all face, which is what hypothesis can explain what we're seeing that is prosaic, that doesn't involve either extraterrestrials or ultra-terrestrials or something like that.
It's very hard for us to believe that the Chinese or the Russians are that far ahead of us in such basic technology, such fundamental technologies.
Perhaps it's true, and that's Got its own set of problems, but either way, we need to get to the bottom of it.
And from the radar data, they should be able to gain some real insights as to where these things are coming from and going to, trajectories, speeds, all that kind of thing.
So typically, if it's an electric drone, it has a very short flight time.
These ships were 100 miles off the coast.
In conditions of low visibility.
And so whoever was operating these things was traversing a long distance probably.
There were only a few other ships in the area.
And they know what those ships were and they deny that they were operating these craft.
So they were in the air a long time.
They were very rigorous in the manner in which they operated as a unit.
They clearly intended to get our attention.
They were operating in a manner that suggests they were trying to provoke our air defense systems, see how we would react, you know, maybe see what frequencies we start communicating on, what actions we take, and so forth.
It's the kind of thing we sometimes do ourselves to the potential adversaries to help game the situation out.
You know, I have a completely open mind on it.
I just want to see the evidence, but there's some features of this that if they are drones, they're probably more advanced than anything we have.
The thing about these things is, yeah, it's extraordinary, it's crazy looking, it's weird to see these pyramids floating through the sky, but they're not moving like the tic-tac.
It's not doing something that we can't do.
It's just, you see them move around, it's really weird, but it's...
It's not definitive evidence of anything at this point.
It's strange, it's peculiar that it's happening around a warship, and that our guys don't know what it is, and it looks like some of these things are entering and leaving the water, which is...
There are certainly more reports coming in, civilian and military.
The technology that we have today is leaps and bounds over what we had even a few years ago in terms of resolution, distance, range, all those kinds of things.
The latest generation of radars that are being deployed are a huge step forward from what was in the fleet just a few years ago.
So that is probably leading to some reporting that we didn't have before, things that were out there, but the radar cross-section was so low they weren't appearing on people's scopes.
So I think it's probably a mixture of things, but what is concerning in part is that some of this activity is more in-your-face kind of stuff.
It's more like not elusive, you know, on the edge.
You see it and it flies away.
It's coming to a nuclear power station and buzzing around it and staying there.
It's coming around these warships and making a point of being seen.
It's coming to an Air Force base in Guam and doing the same thing.
And haven't there been reports of them showing up around missiles and doing something with the launch codes or stopping the power from working in these places or something along those lines?
Some sort of manipulation of the power systems, almost to let you know.
Yeah, this is one of the most provocative and fascinating and important stories in this whole area of UFOs and national security.
And we have retired Air Force officers who've testified to this, and there are FOIA documents that support these claims.
But the Air Force has never been asked by Congress or anyone to address this.
They've never acknowledged it.
There's an opportunity to do that now, and I think it's long overdue.
This is stunning, if it's true.
I mean, this is the backbone of our nuclear deterrence strategy.
It's really the crown jewels of our freedom and independence and ability to deter nuclear powers like Russia and China.
You know, this is kind of the ultimate insurance policy militarily that we have.
If someone can come in there and turn these things off, it's just shocking.
Absolutely shocking.
Because of the stigma, Congress has been unwilling even to ask the question, even in private.
Even though this is very well documented and these people have come out in their retired uniforms and things and with their documentation showing where they were assigned.
In one of these cases, out at Malmstrom Air Force Base, I believe it was, there's a good book because the local sheriff was responding to so many calls from civilians in the area to UFOs that were being seen and encountered.
He co-authored a book on what was happening.
So there's a lot of data about this, but yet there's no official confirmation that that occurred.
Yeah, the sheer volume, I would like to know whether or not they are increasing in volume or whether or not it is just an increase in our ability to detect them.
And we don't really know, right?
Because it's been 2017, so it's not that long ago, four years when it really started being something that people were willing to take seriously.
Because of the New York Times article and because there's just a few videos that are pretty extraordinary.
The go fast video when you hear the pilots going, what the fuck?
And you're watching that thing buzz across the water with no heat signature.
And there are a number of these mass sighting cases, and not just in the U.S. There was a soccer match in Italy.
Reportedly with 10,000 fans at a stadium.
The game came to a screeching halt.
People watched this thing overhead.
There have been some mass sightings in Brazil and other places.
The Phoenix case, what I find most intriguing about that, one of the things, is that Fife Symington, the governor of Arizona, who's a former Air Force officer, himself said after the fact, he saw this thing and it was not a plane, it was not flares, as some of the Air Force contended.
I think they determined there were actually some aircraft doing an exercise to drop some flares, but this seems to be something apart from that, at least, what Fife Simeton and many others reported, hard to reconcile with the flare exercise.
Well, the problem with the flare analogy is unless the flares are suspended with balloons where they were slowly lowering from the sky, it doesn't make any sense.
Because they're hovering.
I mean, they might have been flares suspended by balloons and slowly making their way down.
But, you know, see if you can find the Phoenix Lights video.
It's weird.
Because if they would just drop flares, they would drop.
It could be, instead of a flare, it could be some sort of massive LED light.
Because the sheer size, too, when you look at them hovering over the city, you have to take into account that, if you look at that image right there, You have to take into account everything you're looking down there is buildings and windows and street lights and all that jazz.
Those things have to be massive to make that much illumination while they're in the sky.
If you just had a flashlight and you were hanging a flashlight in the sky, like what is that?
A thousand feet in the air or so?
Who knows?
Whatever it is.
Probably a thousand feet.
A couple thousand feet.
If you had a couple thousand feet up in the air and you had a flashlight, you could barely see that thing.
I agree with you that the big one was the New York Times, but I also think the Bob Lazar documentary was a big one too.
Because when you listen to Bob talk over long periods of time, and you hear him describe what it is that he saw, what he supposedly worked on in the late 80s, and the way he described the propulsion system, which is exactly the same way that tic-tac thing moves.
That's what's bizarre.
It's like in the other one, was it the FLIR video?
Which video where it turns sideways before it takes off?
Well, there were some people on the inside who were worried that this issue was not getting any attention and were very concerned about what was happening, very concerned about the national security situation.
I had actually introduced Lou Elizondo, who was leading a small effort in the Pentagon to try to track this activity, to two people who were direct reports to General Mattis.
And so when I first found out this was going on and it was falling through the cracks, I thought, well, maybe we can get this up to the front office and at least make them aware.
And unfortunately, after several meetings and bringing pilots in, these individuals became aware that, yes, indeed, something is happening.
But they were concerned that General Mattis might be contaminated politically from even taking a briefing.
They were very protective of his reputation and his stature, which is understandable.
Is that one of the more extraordinary things about the fact this stuff is being released, the fact that everything generally does have to go through so many levels, that they are kind of throwing their hands up in the air and going, we have to do something or say something?
Well, there were a few, I won't call them whistleblowers, but there were a few people who were very concerned and willing to take this out of normal channels because It wasn't even that people were having trouble moving along.
It wasn't going anywhere.
NORAD didn't even know.
The North American Aerospace Defense Command was not even being notified that this was happening right off the coast.
I know for certain in the case of the Tic Tac in 2004 with Commander Fravor that the Princeton was guiding them with its Aegis radar to the intercept point and tracking it afterward when it went to the cap point.
In this case, I suspect it was a ship guiding them, but it may have been their onboard radars because they have very sophisticated radars.
And the pilots that I've spoken with out there said, we would see these things all the time.
Yeah, it's vast and largely unexplored and unknown and inaccessible.
We do have the ability to, if we become interested in a particular area, To really do some serious reconnaissance underwater, we have resources, but again, somebody has to make a decision.
What's interesting, I mean, from overhead imagery now, even commercial imagery, with artificial intelligence, You know, we're able to pretty much map the world every day, and if you have a particular profile you're looking for with these computer algorithms, you can search all that imagery fairly quickly.
So, the reconnaissance capabilities are extensive, and you can cover large areas, particularly if you're looking for a particular thing, and you can describe it well, so that if it sees a match, if the computer sees a match, it identifies it.
There is a lot, there's just mountains of data coming into this panoply of sensors that we have from thousands of miles out in space to closer in space to the air, ground, sea, undersea.
There's a layer, a mesh network around the entire planet, essentially.
There was a sub accompanying the Nimitz carrier battle group, and it didn't detect anything in the water.
So there may be an ability to move underwater and remain undetected, much as there's an ability in the air to go at supersonic speeds without creating a shockwave.
Whatever this technology is, it has some very unusual properties.
When you watch him talk and you hear him give his description of his time working there and what he saw and what he thinks those things are, what was your take on that?
The complexity of it, and the fact that he talked about Laurentium, for example, and Then decades later, it turns out that apparently there is a more stable form of that.
He said that he was working on something for the government, and they sent him to MIT to...
Learn something and he I can't say too much I'll tell you off air because he told me not to talk about it but it makes more sense when you hear his description of it that essentially It wasn't documented that he was studying there because what he was doing was Really a terrible thing a terrible experiment.
They're working on when I explain to you Maybe it'll make more sense.
Okay Maybe not, though.
Maybe he's full of shit.
Maybe he lied about that.
What's interesting, though, is he's told the same exact story since the late 80s.
And he doesn't seem full of shit.
Now, some people are really good at lying.
And, you know, I've been tricked before, and I'm sure you have, too.
He's obviously though, he's obviously very intelligent and he obviously knows a lot about science.
He knows a lot about propulsion systems and he really did work at Los Alamos, which is interesting because he's actually on the employee roster and they tried to say that he didn't.
He knew people that were there.
He knew the layout of the building.
When he went there with George Knapp, they went through the building.
He knew exactly where everything was.
And he knew the people that worked there.
So he really did work there, apparently, allegedly.
His story, what's interesting to me is that, again, it's the same story over and over and over again.
And then what's also interesting to me is that he knew and took friends to a place where they were testing these things out.
And he knew where it was, and he knew when they were doing it, and he brought his friends out there, and that's when they got arrested.
When he was working for a logging company and encountered an object and went missing for several days and came back with this fantastic story of being abducted by aliens.
Yeah, I had the pleasure of meeting him once with two of my boys and listened to his story and read the book and so forth.
It seems credible.
As incredible as it is, he was missing for those five days.
No one's ever found any explanation of where he was.
There was a full manhunt going on.
There were like six or seven other guys who saw the UFOs, saw this beam strike him.
He's told the same story for years.
I asked him a couple of questions and he gave quick, rapid answers.
Of course, he's been telling this story for a long time, but he didn't sound like someone who had to pause and What am I going to say with this?
It seemed very natural talking about it.
According to that story, as you know, he woke up on an examination table, Lashed out.
These beings were examining him.
He runs into the hallway, runs into another room, and these very Nordic-looking individuals come in and settle him down and escort him out and so forth.
And days later, he wakes up next to a road hundreds of miles from where he was last seen.
What do you do with a story like that?
It's so hard to independently confirm anything.
There's nothing that contradicts his story that we have.
But it's not possible to confirm it.
So it goes into a category of which there are a great many wild, incredible stories like that that really make you scratch your head.
There are some where there's a little more evidence.
There's the Cash-Lundrum case here in Texas, for example, where...
A family was severely irradiated.
They saw a UFO blocking the road, stopped, got out of the car.
It fried some of the paint.
They ended up in the hospital.
Serious radiation poisoning.
Sued the Defense Department thinking it must be some DoD project.
DoD swarping down it wasn't theirs and they lost the case.
Yeah, that's, you know, there are a number of cases actually like that where people are visibly affected and physically ill and have, you know, red marks on their skin and very ill.
The other problem I have with that is hypnotic regression.
Hypnotic regression is very odd, right?
Because you can sort of suggest memories to people.
I don't know what the hypnotic regression was like.
There's a problem with suggesting things to people in various states of vulnerability that those things become false memories.
It's really common.
You know as well as I do, the human memory is this incredibly flawed thing.
And so if you're in a state like hypnosis and someone starts suggesting to you that perhaps you were involved in some incredible experience and so was your husband and this is what he saw and did you see something similar?
I think most cases of alleged abductions that rely on that, you can't really assign any credibility to it.
What was interesting about the Hill case was that they had an individual who was trained and did not believe in this phenomenon, was not trying to lead them to that outcome.
Dr. Mack was a Harvard psychiatrist and faculty member, and he began studying people who thought they'd been abducted and became persuaded eventually that this was really happening to them in some cases.
Not all cases, but in some cases, he believed they really were having these experiences, or at least they sincerely thought they were.
I'm not sure he necessarily went to the point publicly of saying, yeah, I think aliens are coming down and scarfing them up, but I think these people are telling the truth as they understand it.
And you mentioned the case, the aerial case, in the former Rhodesian Zimbabwe.
He traveled there, interviewed the kids.
You can see this in the documentary, The Phenomenon.
There's good coverage of that.
You can see Dr. Mack in the movie and get a sense of him as a person.
He seems gentle and kind and thoughtful.
But I have heard a lot of questions have been raised about his hypnotic regression technique, which is what he mostly relied on.
And it's one of those subjects, it's so, for whatever reason, it just hits that part of the brain that wants to believe.
I don't think there's another subject on earth other than maybe possibly religion that hits that part of the brain like the alien abduction or UFO phenomenon does.
I think there are some tests now that they're not being used for that purpose, but the government's done a lot of research, and I think there are things right now where they can see, kind of understand what you're thinking as you're thinking it, and observe how the brain acts when people are lying versus when they're not lying, but I've seen some write-ups on some of this.
So they might see the brain reacting as though it were either lying or telling the truth, but you'd have to probably be further down the path than we are today to know whether that could be a recalled memory, whether that's all you're observing, maybe an implanted memory.
And when it comes to something that's so extraordinary, like seeing a UFO, I mean, I've never seen a flying saucer or an alien.
But I could imagine if I did, I would probably be so overcome with fear and excitement and emotions.
Your brain is short-circuited.
I can only imagine trying to decipher that and then if I had to sit here and explain it to you and be completely honest about my experience, boy, I don't know if I could.
I don't know what I would get out of that, how much juice I would squeeze out of that.
We were hiking in Wyoming, my wife and I, and she was ahead of me on the trail.
And all of a sudden, and I was trying to make noise once in a while, and I was hiking with the bear spray in my hand because I was taking that threat very seriously.
And all of a sudden there was this spine-tingling roar.
I mean, I'm coming to kill you right now.
You are so fucking dead.
Oh, no.
I've never heard anything like it.
I wish we had it on a recording somewhere because it's not like what I've ever seen in a video or heard anywhere else.
The epitome of ferocity, you know?
And so this thing starts charging up at us.
We're up on a trail, on a hiking trail.
And I just slip off the safety and start getting as much spray out there as I can.
And it comes up on the trail and stops and looks at us.
And he puts his head down, like he's gauging us.
And I'm just standing there, putting the spray out.
With the sensitivity they have, I'm sure he was, you know, getting that.
Although he was about 30 feet away, kind of at that point.
30 feet away?
Yeah, he was right there.
I think if it had been a female bear with cubs, I'm not sure that would have worked.
But in this case, after seeing that we weren't attacking him, I guess, you know, when you surprise a grizzly, they have this adrenaline gate that opens and they're full on.
They just go nuclear immediately, not like a black bear.
But there was enough time lapse, I think, between the startle and when he got up on the trail and was getting the pepper spray and saw us that he then walked, turned around and went up the trail the other way.
But yeah, your mind does unusual things when you get in circumstances like that.
Well, like I said, it was kind of a dissociated state, I think.
I felt almost like I was in a dream state.
And part of me was questioning, is this a dream?
Because this was kind of a nightmare situation.
It's like the ultimate worst thing I ever want to have happen.
My wife and I get chewed up by a grizzly bear.
And so I was thinking, you know, is this like almost pinching myself literally, you know, because I was questioning, could this really be happening?
And yet you're on autopilot, and you're just kind of doing what you need to do.
So in this case, it was getting the pepper spray up, taking the safety off, and just putting as much of that between us and the bear as I could, and not running.
I think years later I was talking to a game guy in Africa, and he said, I told him my story.
He had a lot of better stories than mine.
But he said, well, you know, mate, why you lived?
And I said, no, why?
And he said, because you didn't run.
And for whatever reason, we followed the training and just held our ground.
I have some friends that were in Alaska and they got charged by a bear.
They had killed an elk and they were packing the elk out and they went back to get it the rest of it in the morning because it's a long hike to their camp and a bear had claimed it and They didn't realize that the bear claimed it until it was too late And then it came charged out an enormous black bear, you know the black bears in Alaska or excuse me not brown bear brown bear in Alaska They're so big because they get so much protein.
They get so much fish.
It's an 11-foot bear just charging them and knocked them over.
One of their friends actually wound up on top of the bear's back as it was running down the hill for a brief amount of time.
So for a second or so, it was actually literally riding this bear's back.
and these guys all got out of it okay they all got out of it alive the thing ran off and it huffed it didn't i don't think it understood how many people were there it was a large crew filming a television show and so as it ran off uh it went into the woods for a second then it was barking at them from the woods they all had guns but they didn't have the guns ready they were eating lunch at the time i'm surprised they didn't have their guns ready because i've been hunting up there For caribou and mountain goat and other things.
A famous wildlife photographer was actually killed very recently in Montana.
See if you can find this, Jamie, because this guy has an amazing Instagram page.
And on his last post, which was just a few days before he was killed, he had a really cool photo of a grizzly bear, and he said he managed to get, because he had apparently been fly fishing, and he managed to get that close to the bear because he had smelled like he'd been catching trout all day.
So the bear actually got close to him.
And apparently what had happened was he inadvertently stumbled upon a bear that had killed a moose.
And the bear was protecting the moose.
And I guess he was just trying to get a photograph of it or something.
You know, this is funny because some of the pepper spray, a little bit of it got on me and more got on my wife because she was just in front of me between me and the bear.
And it took like 60 seconds before you started to feel, there was a lag after you got the pepper spray on you between when it started to burn and then it would get more intense.
He was also there past the time when the bears were supposed to be hibernating, so the only bears that are outside of hibernation are really desperate for protein, desperate for fat.
They'll eat anything, and they decide, I think I'm going to meet this dude.
And he was annoying.
He would get close to the bear, hey, Mr. Chocolate, The film is hilarious, unfortunately.
It's one of the most unintentionally funny movies you'll ever see.
Because the guy...
First of all, the man really loved bears.
There's no doubt about that.
And had a deep respect for them and all those things are true.
But also, he's like a comical kind of a guy.
He would go up to their poop and go, this was just inside of her.
I think human beings have such a distorted idea of our place in the food chain.
I really do.
We live in houses, and we drive in cars, and we fly in planes, and we have guns, and we can go to the zoo and see a bear.
But when you're out in the woods, and there's no rules, and they're acting on the laws of nature, I just don't think most people have any idea what that life is like.
Their life is just ruthless and short.
It lasts for like, you know, if they're lucky, they get 14, 15 years out of it, and by the time they're dead, all their bones are fucked up, and their face is torn apart by other bears, and they kill things with their face for a living.
Is the worst case scenario that they are beings from another planet or another dimension or is the worst case scenario that these are things that China has developed or Russia has developed and they're so far technically superior to us that we can't even imagine?
That's interesting because both situations in a worst case could lead to a similar outcome.
The Chinese are employing AI and information technology In a truly Orwellian fashion, they are creating a state in which they can monitor what virtually every conversation,
people's movement, people's employment, their location, they've got facial recognition detectors, they've got every cell phone, it's got like a patriotic scorecard on it which they can download at a checkpoint.
And as they continue to perfect that and implement that, you get a vision of It seems very alien of where you extrapolate that out 20 years.
You've got absolute power and control at the top like a dysfunctional Hollywood sci-fi movie.
So it's conceivably almost as bad as the worst case scenario of aliens coming in.
I don't know what should be worse.
When you think about space and this infinite ocean and the shores it washes up on and the things that are in the shadows out there, You know, there's no end to where your imagination can go.
So it's hard to compare.
But I don't think either of those would necessarily be a happy scenario.
Well, I would think that best case scenario would be aliens.
Because we would hope that aliens would be more enlightened than us.
We know Chinese are not.
They're just humans.
You know, we know that Chinese people are no different than the Russians or than the Chechnyans or the United States people.
They're just human beings, right?
Human beings are incredibly flawed and we're territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons.
That's what we are.
We would hope that these things from another planet are far more advanced in us technologically and hopefully far more advanced than us spiritually, the way they communicate.
Maybe they're not warlike at all, which is why there's been no stories about them attacking and killing people or blowing up bases or doing anything crazy when they've been Chased by jets.
They seem to be completely benign in that respect.
So I think the best case scenario at this stage would be that they're aliens.
The help us part, maybe, but show us the technology, but we're still us.
The problem is we're still us.
We're still ridiculous.
The human animal in just, in general, amazing, beautiful, incredible creations, wonderful creativity, but also frightening in our anger and our ability to lash out and attack.
I would hope that these beings that can travel across the galaxy would be far past all that stuff.
That's best case scenario.
Because if it is Russia, or if it is China, You know, they're gonna be like, look, I'm a proud American, and I would like to think that the way we behave and the way we have governed in terms of the way we've used our superpower, although not perfect, has been better than if it was Communist China that was in the CCP that was in the same position.
I would think that we've done a far better job.
I would think that we're certainly not as draconian in the way we treat our citizens.
We certainly don't do things to our citizens in this current age the way they did to the Uyghur Muslims.
There's a lot of things that I like about the United States.
But if the United States had the kind of power where they could just travel through the galaxy and they could just show up outside of nuclear bases in China and do whatever the fuck they wanted and just disappear into the ocean and we were the only ones that had it, that would disturb the shit out of the rest of the world, right?
Even though we are the preeminent superpower.
Even though we are, you know, we're the number one military power on Earth right now, currently, for the time being, right?
I wouldn't want us to have that kind of advantage over the rest of the world.
But if anybody did, I'd want it to be us.
But I definitely don't want it to be China, right?
We monitor the Chinese and Russians very closely, very carefully.
We spend, I think the unclassified figure is about $70 billion per year on the intelligence program, intelligence community.
And it would be very surprising and stunning if they had independently developed technology that was that far ahead of everything else and everyone else somehow secretly.
So it doesn't seem likely and we don't think that's the case.
There's some other cases like that where people have come forward and said, I was in the military and I was at this, you know, retrieval where I was a kid and I saw this thing crash and I ran up to it and I saw what was inside it and blah blah blah.
There are some, in fact, there's some investigation going on right now on a new case.
So it's not an off-the-wall question.
It's a legitimate question.
I think the way it would probably play out in our government is that...
It would be so deeply squirreled away that you wouldn't be able to bring in the best scientists.
You wouldn't be able to bring in world-class scientists.
You would have available maybe a few people inside some aerospace company, and they'd probably be very hamstrung in their ability to test and examine the material and so forth.
And, you know, it'd just be locked away somewhere.
That's the argument for Bob Lazar, because Bob Lazar, at least on paper, is not a top scientist.
He was a guy that had not the best credentials in terms of his education, but was clearly a very intelligent guy who was fascinated with propulsion systems, put a jet engine in the back of his car.
He was kind of a wacky, super genius dude.
He was just a little off.
And when you think about his description of how they ran the program, it's even more in line with what you would do with something that was incredibly top secret, whereas everything's compartmentalized.
The metallurgy people didn't talk to the propulsion people.
The propulsion people didn't talk to whoever else was on the project.
Is it possible that there might be something like that when it gets to a program that's as bizarre as back engineering extraterrestrial vehicles that they might put in place additional levels of top secret clearance?
Especially when you're talking about compartmentalizing all these different aspects of the project?
So, you know, in the classified world, you've got the intelligence community and it has its own procedures and so forth.
Then you've got Defense Department black programs, which are a different world.
And there's a little bit of overlap in a Venn diagram sense.
And then you've got Department of Energy, which has billions of dollars in black programs, tens of billions, and very little oversight.
So they have a system and a different clearance, which is a result of the Atomic Energy Act, not an executive order, which establishes the classification for the rest of the government.
Now, the Roswell story is a fascinating one because there was an uptick in UFO sightings, or at least reported sightings, that came after World War II. And the idea is, amongst the UFO cognoscenti, Is that they were aware that we had detonated nuclear weapons and that we had blown up Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
And they're like, okay, these crazy fucks are taking us to a new place.
I mean, if there are aliens here, why are they here?
What are they doing, right?
And when you look at the behavior of the objects that we're seeing, it's consistent with the possibility that maybe somebody has an interest in something here they want to protect.
And if we were to have a nuclear war, it might compromise that interest.
So maybe they have a stake in some resource here or some capability or genetics or just whatever.
Maybe it's an experiment and Petri dish somebody started a long time ago.
They want their experiment to run to its conclusion.
There's so many possibilities when you start going down that path.
I think...
Probes that are, you know, artificial intelligence probes that have the capability perhaps to manufacture or print robots or beings or maybe even genetically create something when it arrives at a destination.
It is conceivable, right?
They could travel through space for hundreds of years or thousands of years, arrive at a destination, consuming very little energy in the hallway, all of a sudden, boom, and they create on board some beings that can operate things and perform tasks that are short live for that purpose.
Monitor, interact, collect, report.
There's all kinds of possibilities that are within the bounds of science.
And when you think about what's happening currently with human civilization, if you take it from the advent of the nuclear bomb to where we are today with this weird situation with Russia and China and just even almost like a civil war, which is potentially possible in the United States as well, like we're in this weird volatile stage of our development as a civilization.
Maybe that's a feature of evolution.
Maybe when biological creatures go from being a thing that lives tooth and claw like a grizzly bear to eventually developing shelter and then eventually developing some semblance of civilization to eventually developing advanced civilization and space travel and all this other stuff.
Maybe along the way there's this real Possibility of fucking the whole project up and that it happens all throughout the universe and maybe they've observed this maybe this is a stage of development that we are being given training wheels and Maybe a little bit of a helping hand by our extraterrestrial Brethren who are okay.
They're there.
They're right there.
They're at that nuclear part Let's uh, let's keep an eye on these fuckers.
That would be a nice benign view I'd love that and it's possible that Even by acknowledging this phenomenon, if we got to the point down the road where our government said, wow, there really is something from off-planet coming here, it might help to resolve some of these differences and disputes between different countries,
might compel us to collaborate more, to see ourselves more as one species, one people, and not Chinese versus Russians versus Americans.
It would certainly stimulate a lot of technology, much as the space program did after they saw the Sputnik.
And people got afraid of the Russians in space, and they're ahead of us.
And it actually led to cooperation.
It led to progress in technology, a lot of good things.
So I think there's a possibility that this could go in a very positive direction.
Now, Roswell as a case is really interesting, right?
Because there's a lot of witnesses.
There's a lot of people that claim to have seen things and the stories all kind of mesh together from Jesse Marcel to all the different people that claim to have seen bodies and different people that saw caskets to the person who worked at the Mortuary who was contacted, the funeral home that was contacted by the military and told to make small caskets.
There was all this weird shit that goes together.
Now, whenever you have a story like that that becomes a legend, for sure there's some fuckery involved, right?
Congressman Schiff of Arizona took up the case decades after the fact and asked the General Accounting Office to investigate.
And they confronted the Air Force and did a lot of research and the Air Force story that these were weather balloons crumbled.
And the Air Force did a deep inquiry of its own and produced a big book saying, I forget what the title was, but essentially they were saying it was actually a classified experiment that was designed to detect nuclear explosions in the Soviet Union.
So they admitted that their first story was a lie, and their news story was, well, it really was balloons, but they weren't weather balloons.
And then the next day they said it was a weather balloon.
Was that when Jesse Marcel says he was told to bring in this false debris and say that this aluminum foil and all this crap was from a weather balloon?
And I will tell you, I've never said this before, but I've been told by multiple people who have credentials and access that there is some truth to these stories.
So I don't discount this when people say this.
I've had people tell me, you know, people that have substantial, you know, scientific or military credentials that they believe is true.
So I encourage people on the Hill to pursue it.
You know, they've got a task force going right now looking into this.
Trying to understand what's happening in these restricted military areas.
If you're opening that up, you know, ask all the tough questions.
Ask about the military bases and the nuclear weapons.
Ask whether there's anything buried somewhere, whether there's materials that we have.
There's Area 51, there's Wright-Patt, there's Edwards.
There's a whole lot of places, depending on what you were doing with it.
If you wanted to just squirrel it away, there's some facilities not too far from here in the Southwest that are, you know, you dispose nuclear waste and other things.
So they're recipients of intelligence products and reporting.
But even when I was in the government...
People in the National Security Council and, at that time, the Director of Central Intelligence, they didn't have access to the black programs at DOD. There was a case where I had a request from the National Security Council for access to some programs, and I took it back to the building, and they said, no.
That's the President's own staff.
If the President wants it, we'll tell, or maybe the National Security Advisor or something, but...
It's not that he can't, and he can get briefed on anything he wants, but he could spend the first six months doing nothing but looking at secret programs and getting briefed on them.
And it's just not worth his time to be getting briefed on, yeah, this is how we made the battle armor on the tank better.
I'd want to know all their special programs is one thing.
I'd want to have a sit-down with the Director of Operations at CIA. I'd want to talk to...
I'd want to review the waived special access programs, Section 119 of Title X, that most of Congress is exempted from reporting to.
It's a very high category of DOD programs.
There's some things like that.
There's a briefing the president gets, of course, shortly after being elected that covers a lot of the, you know, strategic nuclear warfare, some of the key top secret things that he really needs to know, has to know, should know.
And then, you know, there's a category of things that are like, should we tell them or not?
There's too much stuff, obviously, to convey, so they've got to pick and choose.
Some things are no-brainers, other things are judgment calls.
Well, in some cases, a lot of what they're doing is good stuff.
They're trying to secure the weapons stockpile, and they're trying to make sure that now that we're not testing anymore, will these things still function as they were designed?
And they can do incredible computer modeling.
And that kind of thing.
But, you know, DOE's got its hands in a lot of different areas in terms of power and production and other kinds of things.
And I'd be very interested to know, they don't seem to get much oversight, unlike the Defense Department and the Intelligence Community.
They have a lot of oversight from Capitol Hill, for example.
DOE, I don't think, necessarily disclosed its black programs to its oversight committee, the Energy and Public Works Committee.
Now, if you became president and you wanted to find out more information about UAPs or UFOs or whatever you want to call them, how would you go about doing that?
Imagine walking around with that information, though.
Imagine being a guy who's walking around knowing that somewhere in the middle of the Nevada desert, there's a UFO that definitely came from another planet.
It's being guarded 24-7.
And if the public saw it, it would shatter their belief in reality.
The panic would be awful and there'd be casualties and they didn't have certainty that it was there.
But that would be a terrible policy decision to have to make.
Do we tell people to evacuate or not?
If you tell people to evacuate, there's probably going to be incredible panic and all kinds of, not only just disruption, but people are going to get hurt and probably some people are going to die in a panic like that.
Like, what do you do if they spotted something, they've got some sort of satellite image of some mothership that's 15 football fields long, and it's headed our way?
I'm sure you're aware of the astronomy professor from Harvard, the chief of astronomy, Dr. Avi Loeb, and his assessment of that object that went through our solar system, that he believes it's extraterrestrial in origin, that it's 91% a disk.
91% possibility that it's some sort of a disk, that it's 10 times more reflective than any other object like it that we've ever spotted in the solar system, and that it's moving far too fast away from the sun for it to be something that it's not affected the way we would expect it to be by the sun's gravity.
It seems to indicate that it's something of extraterrestrial origin.
I have read that since then an alternative has been identified that many scientists think clears this up that explains those anomalies.
He identified a number of anomalies.
One of the things I found interesting though about it is here's an object, maybe discarded, maybe it's just an artifact, a solar sail that somebody didn't need anymore and it fell into orbit around our Sun.
If it was some kind of a craft, as some people theorized, think about how inefficient that is compared to a probe in our atmosphere, compared to these things that we're seeing routinely.
This thing passed, you know, it may have taken hundreds or thousands of years to get here, and would you want to design and build something that after traveling for hundreds of thousands of years, it spends a few days at a Great distance from interesting planets and just kind of whizzes by and then it's gone.
What I think is interesting, though, is we have this very persuasive and compelling evidence of intelligently controlled vehicles in our atmosphere that are actually maneuvering, which this thing was not.
And are behaving in ways that you might expect a probe from somewhere else to behave, including the fact that it's doing radical things we don't understand that seem like magic.
So if you apply that logic to, say, the Nimitz case, I think it's even stronger.
I think it's harder to explain the Nimitz case than it is Umana-Mana.
A Mono Mono, though, what my take on it is like, you know, you could go to someone's barn and find a Model T. Or you could drive down the road and see a Tesla.
You know, there are various stages of technological evolution.
Just because we have these amazing things like that tic-tac that are somehow or another here and operating, it doesn't mean it's something else.
I mean, if we're right about the amount of Goldilocks planets that are out there and we're right about the infinite scope of the universe, It's possible there's a shitload of civilizations.
We can't compare their technology.
It's almost like comparing the technology of human beings on the same planet to people that live on, like, North Sentinel Island, right?
The people that are isolated, the small band of human beings that live in this uncontacted tribe.
Yeah, there's a number of these fabricators, and of course they've polluted the whole space.
I know some guys that are trying to create an AI capability that'll screen all these videos.
For signs of manipulation and being hoaxed, etc., so you can have a better sense of confidence in the ones that get through that process.
Because there's so many out there, and some of them could be really interesting, but you have no way of knowing what credibility to attach to them, generally.
There is an interesting one for the Mexican military.
I don't know much detail about that.
I've seen it.
There have been a lot of sightings in Mexico and in South America.
There was a sighting off the coast of Chile, which I think they found an explanation for.
It was apparently a drug plane that was exuding a lot of its fuel, probably because it was trying to disguise its location or I don't know, change directions or something.
It looked very weird when you saw the original video.
I think that was explained.
The Brazilians have tons of video.
I haven't seen much of it.
I know that they've collected a great deal of information.
They've had some incidents like we did in 52 where the capital of the U.S. was being overflown.
They called it the Night of the UFOs and they had like 23 different UFOs being seen and multiple fighter jets in the air.
This was going on all over the country, front page news.
So, there is some other video evidence out there for sure.
There's some video that we haven't released that we have, that I've seen.
One of them, I've seen a few of them, and until the Defense Department releases it, I can't say too much about it, even though it's not classified, but they haven't released it yet.
But I will say there are some more videos like the ones that have been released that they've authenticated.
Jamie, find the Go Fast video and play that because that's the best one to hear the pilots reaction because they're watching this thing shoot across the surface of the ocean.
That would have to be the most fucking insane wind of all time, like a tunnel wind.
But just the fact that it looks like it's not wiggling at all, it's moving through some method of propulsion that can't be determined because it's not giving off a heat signature.
And, I mean, to say it's only 150 miles an hour, like, maybe.
But why would that freak out pilots who go way faster than that?
I mean, they can go supersonic, and they're watching this thing, and they're freaking out and laughing.
And they're probably being vectored to it by somebody.
It sounds to me like they've been looking for it and somebody's been saying, hey, it's down here, go to this place and you'll find it.
And then these guys finally get on it and somebody gets a lock on it.
And you can hear that amazement in their voice.
So there's a lot more information about that incident than these others, which is in the public domain.
I've been urging the Defense Department to put more of that out there and suggesting to the committees they might want to They asked the department to do that.
They don't see any reason not to.
An informed public is in our best interest.
It's in our best national security interest.
And yet the overwhelming default value in the Pentagon is, you know, don't talk about anything, don't share anything.
Even though they can see in a case like this, until that information got out, nothing was happening.
And now we're finally getting some attention on a serious national security problem, which wouldn't have happened if the information hadn't gone public.
And, you know, why not make more information public if it's not classified?
There's no sources and methods issue that you're going to compromise.
You know, you're not revealing some super hidden capability that needs to be protected.
Why not put that out and help inform people?
And it's their country, it's their homes, their livelihood, their government.
And ultimately, how does Congress make decisions about how to allocate resources if they don't have the information of what's going on and what the possible threats are?
None of this information was getting to Congress.
So there was no opportunity for them even to take any action.
They were completely kept in the dark on this until 2017. That's pretty crazy.
So that doesn't mean that the object was necessarily a super advanced craft.
He's going so fast, maybe it was actually moving slowly and hanging there, and he went by it super fast.
But his perception was that something was coming real fast at him and going right between him and another guy.
It's all unclassified stuff, but it doesn't resolve any of these issues, but it's pretty compelling.
There's something like that along those lines.
The Navy has admitted there was a near-mid-air collision.
Safety report was filed.
That's all public information.
And I think, again, it's frustrating to see this attitude of We've got to lock everything down.
We've got to classify everything right away, even if it's a guy with an iPhone.
And it's not a secret sensor or anything.
You don't have to worry about the source.
Because an informed public, more of the scientific community will get involved.
They'll bring more expertise to bear.
And people better assess this issue and whether something needs to be done about it.
Because right now, almost nothing is being done about it.
They've got a tiny task force with a few guys who are trying to collect information and write a report for the Senate.
And I think what's going to be significant about it is it's due next month.
They're not going to be able to say what Project Blue Book said, which was, there's nothing really happening here.
There's nothing of national security interest.
There's no advanced technology.
It's beyond what we have.
Blue Book said both of those things.
He said, not only is it not ET, but we don't see any mysterious technology, and we don't see any reason to be concerned from a national security standpoint.
I don't see how this report can say any of those things.
So I think when that, you know, assuming they do deliver the report and they acknowledge that this is happening, it's continuing to happen, they have other classified information that should be weighed and factored into their unclassified judgment and report that's released.
They won't give the details, but the people that write the assessment of this should have the knowledge of that.
And I think if they do a straight-up job, they're going to have to acknowledge that there are indications of technology more advanced than anything we possess, and that there is a legitimate national security issue.
That has the most, I think, emotional impact on people.
I think the gimbal video, when you understand that there's a second fleet of UFOs that are maneuvering near those guys, in addition to what you're seeing there and the pilot's reaction and maneuvering, that's probably...
The most compelling.
The FLIR video that we haven't talked about much does show this instantaneous acceleration, which is another thing that we don't have.
We can't do.
We don't have anything that can sit there hovering and then just suddenly, you know.
Yeah, and he had been following what was going on earlier in the day and wanted to go out and try to get on this thing, you know, gung-ho Navy pilot, and all of a sudden it decides it doesn't want to be there anymore.
So what we're watching, for folks who are just listening, is he's toggling also from looking at it in what looks like 1X, and then he goes and zooms in occasionally, he's going back and forth.
And that will that will enhance his ability to track it and He's not able to do that.
He's his system is not able to get a lock so he keeps trying and then all of a sudden Yeah, that's bananas You know do we have any estimation of how fast it was going when it did that?
We do We're talking thousands of miles an hour.
The Scientific Coalition for UFO Research has a website and they did a very deep analysis, mathematical engineering guys.
On the momentums, the G-forces, the speeds, and they're all crazy.
I mean, some of the G-forces, their G-forces, if the speed estimates are right, that are probably five times greater than anything we've ever built could withstand.
I mean, it would just shred any aircraft, any missile, any rocket that we've ever built.
They're so far beyond the design tolerances and limits of systems that we make that it's crazy.
It's just such a strange occurrence when all those pieces align together like that too, right?
Where you have the Nimitz, you have Commander Fravor, you have the other ship and all this information about this one thing that they track on this one day and then they say they've encountered multiple ones of those over the last few weeks.
Yes, they were tracking numerous objects that were moving off the coast of California and the coast of Mexico.
They were descending from probably the sort of maximum detection range of the Aegis cruiser there, which they were seeing some of these things starting to appear in their radar at like 80,000 feet.
They have a low radar cross-section, so most conventional radars couldn't even track them.
Certainly not at any kind of distance.
So, you know, you don't know how high were they...
coming down from they picked them up at 60 80 000 feet but where did they start what was their initial entry point into the atmosphere uh if they were exo atmospheric at some point but we don't know that but we do know that they came in very high altitudes and then were able to drop you know like um down to 20 000 feet in a matter of you know like a split second drop down to 50 feet
when when dave fravor appeared on the scene later that uh craft was was hovering at 50 feet over the ocean.
So they had this incredible performance range.
There seems to be unlimited time on station.
They don't seem to be running out of fuel.
They seem to be able to just go all day, which of course our aircraft are not able to do, at these insane speeds and maneuver unlike anything that we know of or understand.
If there's no air intake, there's no exhaust, there's no heat signature, and they're going supersonic without making sound.
So there's some theories about that which are not validated yet.
Attempts to explain that by manipulating spacetime in the immediate vicinity of the craft that could potentially explain how the contents could survive the g-forces because they wouldn't be subjected to them and why they wouldn't make sound as it make a shockwave as it crossed the sound barrier.
And lots of other factors associated with this phenomenon.
There are some plausible explanations consistent with science as we understand it, but it would be really exotic technology and way beyond anything that we even have on the drawing boards.
But it would enable, in theory, if you could construct something, a device that could do that, to essentially cause this object to act like it was falling.
And so the people on board, if there were people or whatever's on board, wouldn't feel those radical g-forces, and the object would slip through the atmosphere instead of, like, Penetrating through the atmosphere, more like the atmosphere in front of it was opening up as it moved along.
Now there was a paper that I saw just a couple weeks ago that challenges that theory.
So perhaps that particular theory is no longer in good stead in the physics community, but there are some alternative theories along those lines.
And of course there's just so much we don't know.
So, what we do know is what we're observing, and that's really the key.
And that's part of the problem with this debate is we've got to start with the facts.
The theories have to be consistent with the facts.
The facts don't have to be consistent with the theories.
I mean, you know, we work in that direction.
We take the facts and we try to come up with hypotheses consistent with that.
But too many people look at this and say, well, it can't be this and it can't be that, so the facts are wrong.
You know, this is what some of the debunkers do.
They start with the premise that it couldn't possibly be any of those things, so he must have been seeing a bubble on his windshield.
And, you know, these guys were having a mass delusion, and oh, by the way, the radar operators were mistaking some weather inversion, and, you know, they just keep adding on as necessary new conditions which they have no evidence or proof of.
None of these things have been identified by anybody.
None of the debunkers have said, you know, it turned out that was United Airlines flight, blah, blah, blah.
You know, Chad Underwood, I've heard him on a podcast describe that event, and I actually sent it around to some people because he debunks the debunkers.
He's got thousands of hours of cockpit time, He knows those systems, knows those aircraft.
He says, you know, that was instantaneous acceleration, no ifs, ands, or buts.
And there's no way that was any kind of conventional aircraft out there.
And when you hear the guy talking about firsthand about his experience, I find that generally with these pilots, when you sit down with them face to face, you know, they're not bullshitting you.
It's really clear they're being candid and And their emotions are honest, and they're befuddled like the rest of us.
That propulsion system, the way you described it by manipulating space-time, isn't that exactly what Bob Lazar said propels these spaceships that he was working on?
Yeah, there was something that he did raise that issue and it wasn't until long afterward that scientists discovered that I guess that It is possible for it to be stable for some brief period of time, which I think before they thought you just couldn't bring it together.
What are your thoughts on not just drones, but alien life forms?
I mean, have you ever heard any compelling stories about some biological thing from another planet, whether it's a dead thing or a living thing, that's been observed or that's been, you know, obtained?
It's so frustrating in this field because it's so hard to get to the bottom of these.
And undoubtedly, many of them are not true.
They're legends.
But there are some that come from, say, like a foreign military that...
Really make you wonder, why would they invent this and be claiming this?
Maybe it's some guy off his rocker, but there are some examples like that that do get your attention, that cause you to think maybe there's something to this.
There are a number, but one of them involved a foreign military that had several different interactions and incidents.
They had some military officers that allegedly had some contact, and a very senior officer allegedly There was a location, according to this report, where a UFO was appearing sort of nightly.
And he went out there with some of the guys, and on the second or third night this thing, Lowenhold, did appear.
And he had some interaction with it, supposedly.
And he describes this and describes communications he received.
Ronald Reagan, and it was one of his iconic alien movies, and Reagan sort of quipped to him something like, yeah, you know, it's really true, or we really have those things, or something like that.
Really?
Yeah, one of these legendary conversations.
But maybe in the circles you move in, you can find out.
Legend has it that Nixon and Gleason drove to a heavily guarded building on Homestead Air Force Base, where the leader of the free world gave the guy who played the bus driver from Bensonhurst a private tour.
We drove to the very far end of the base in a regulated and segregated area, finally stopping near a well-guarded building, Gleason told UFO researcher and author Larry Warren, an eyewitness to the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident, according to the book UFOs Among the Stars by Timothy Green Beckley.
The security police saw us coming and just sort of moved back as we passed them and entered the structure.
There were a number of labs we passed through.
First, before we entered a section where Nixon pointed out what he said was the wreckage from a flying saucer, enclosed in several large cases.
Next, we went to an inner chamber, and there were six or eight of what looked like glass-topped Coke freezers.
Inside them were the mangled remains of what I took to be children.
Then, upon closer examination, I saw that some of the other figures looked quite old.
Most of them were terribly mangled as if they had been in an accident.
Jackie Gleason's wife Beverly Gleason told the same story to the magazine Esquire in 1974. It was passed off as a publicity story for her then-upcoming autobiography.
That was one of the things that Terrence McKenna had said about UFOs.
It's not whether or not UFOs are real.
When you talk to someone and they believe in UFOs, ask them what they think about psychics.
Ask them what they think about ghosts.
You know, and then you get these, and you go, oh, you're into weird shit.
You're into things.
You're into the unknown.
Because the unknown is very compelling, and that's part of the problem.
There's, again, this part of the brain that lights up when you can find out things that we don't know to be true, whether it's Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster or UFOs.
Yeah, a lot of people are drawn to this, you know, and again, it's like religion, you know, it's the mystery, it's the wonder, it's the connection to something greater.
People that are, you know, in the intelligence community, there was this remote viewing program.
Well, you know, they seem to have some individuals they claim who could perform better than chance and could do so consistently.
Some of their research has been disputed.
So, I don't have a strong feeling, but I do know that some people have had some legitimately crazy experiences.
The Skinwalker Ranch, there's some strange stuff being documented around there.
There was strange stuff documented by Bob Bigelow, before the present owner had it.
If you read the book Paranormal, you'll hear about incidents that I have discussed with some of the protagonists in that book, and it's crazy stuff.
And they will look you right in the eye at people with PhDs, and they'll say, yeah, This guy came in the room and we said, what are you doing in here?
Because it's a classified, you know, facility.
And the guy, big guy with one arm missing in a hook or something.
And he wheels, turns around, goes out.
The guy who's telling the story runs up and grabs the door and opens it.
There's nobody in the hallway.
This figure looks exactly like supposedly the figure that someone had seen over their bed the night before DOE with this, you know, one-armed guy spinning around.
And, you know, you say, well, this is insane.
This is nuts.
And these are all like sober DOE people who are telling stories like this and other scientists.
So it's really crazy.
It's wild.
It's curious.
It's intriguing.
Some of these people have advanced degrees and they tell far out stories about some of this stuff.
But actually, it's funny you should mention that because there's a private researcher who you've had on the show, Dr. Jacques Vallée, who has some materials, and I think he is on the verge of, you know, he's going through the peer review process.
And treating it like you would any other scientific issue.
And I think he's going to be publishing in a peer-reviewed journal some interesting data before too long.
I think he's been working on that for a long time.
So there are some examples like that that are serious and credible.
And some of the materials seem to have properties that Are difficult to explain that suggest that maybe they were engineered not at the molecular level, but at the atomic level, which would be extremely difficult and expensive to try to replicate.
So, you know, obviously nobody was doing that here.
So where did it come from?
There's also a discussion that the isotopic ratios of these materials in some cases are sufficiently statistically different from what is found in nature in our solar system that it suggests they were born in a different sun,
a different All the heavier elements are created in these solar explosions and supernovae that cram and fuse these protons and neutrons and electrons together and create the higher elements, the heavier elements.
In our solar system, they all came from one event.
And so iron, wherever it is in our solar system, will have a certain ratio of isotopes that have a few that have an extra neutron or, you know, one more or one less kind of thing.
So there's sort of a fingerprint with that.
And supposedly, as I understand it, some of these materials have a different ratio than you would expect of metal found in our solar system.
At least that's one of the things they're looking for and testing for.
Well, they're not all, I'm not sure they're all composites, but I've seen some of these materials and they look like they're, some of them look like they're layered, like they're micromachined, you know, a millionth of an inch or a few bits.
Hundreds of an inch or something layered on top of one another with exotic, fairly exotic metals, bismuth and other things that, you know, people aren't normally using.
It was silverish and, you know, people were looking at it trying to think whether it could be from some, you know, known component to some aircraft or ship or something.
Nobody has identified a conventional industrial counterpart to it.
Something that was manufactured to those specifications for some reason, as far as I know.
There were some people in the field who had been collectors or researchers and had some material just the way Jacques has probably got materials from 15 or 20 different materials, pieces from different alleged incidents.
One was an explosion of an object in Brazil, for example.
So there are some items out on the market that are around.
Now, what can be done in terms of with the government?
What can be done to study this stuff more carefully?
Does a whole new department need to be developed?
Does all these pieces of evidence, the Nimitz case, the GoFast video, the Gimbal video, all the stuff we're talking about, do you think this merits enough attention?
Does this give enough people...
Curiosity to the point where you could see the government investing a considerable amount of capital and resources to studying this stuff on a much deeper level.
I think advanced propulsion, this suggests there may be some new...
Avenues that because, you know, there's proof of principle.
We're seeing something doing this.
It can be done.
And there's some theories, as I mentioned, like the Acubierre Drive and others.
Probably ought to be putting some money on those, investigating them, looking at them.
I do think there needs to be some organizational home for this.
There needs to be an advocate, somebody who is monitoring this and fighting for some money for it in the budget.
Doesn't need a huge amount.
Somebody to send the reports to.
You know, people right now, they've temporarily got this task force that was established.
But when that goes away, if there's not some enduring entity left behind, you know, where does all this stuff go?
And does anybody care about it?
Or does it just do we go back to the status quo ante or, you know, it just falls on the floor and nobody cares?
So I think we're getting to the point, I hope we're getting to the point where people are saying, yeah, we can learn a lot from anomalies.
In science, that's one of the ways breakthroughs most often occur, right, is some anomaly that is baffling, like the procession of Mercury in Einstein.
And Newton's theories couldn't explain that.
It's this weird outlier.
And then he came along with general relativity, perfectly explained it, bingo.
There's some strange anomalies going on here in our atmosphere worth our attention.
And yes, we ought to be studying it and there ought to be a centralized place where this stuff comes together.
And maybe a federal lab kind of a thing.
I'm not an advocate of big new organizational structures and Throwing billions of dollars at things.
I don't think you need to, but I think we could more effectively coordinate space-related research, for example, in R&D than we do today.
So we have DOE labs for nuclear energy and nuclear power.
We don't have something like that that universities and NASA and the military can work with on the space side.
So something like that that was flexible, that would give people a chance to partner from Different backgrounds and academia and so forth with the government is probably something that we could benefit from.
So, yeah, there's a lot we could do, and I don't have a precise number for people, but I could tell you some of the things I'd be thinking about wanting to scope to drive a number.
So, one of the things we haven't done yet is go into these existing databases from these incredible collection systems like the ballistic missile early warning system.
And if they've seen UFOs, they're not reporting it, but their systems are optimized to look for very specific kinds of things, like an ICBM. And they want to reduce clutter, so the other stuff is not displayed to the operator.
People in the op center don't even see it, but it's in the database.
There's a lot of databases like that where if we just pulled the data and had some contractors run it, we might find some really interesting signatures and patterns, which would then help us get a handle on the phenomenon and where we ought to be looking going forward.
So that would take some money to get some contractors to To do that, there are a number of different systems that I would want to do that on.
The space-based infrared system, the global acoustic monitoring system, some other systems.
But my thought is we're paid for this stuff already.
Why don't we look?
We got the data.
Let's take a look.
And these different databases.
And then you might find, ah, this system and this system are showing us some really weird stuff.
And we see things in orbit, and they're coming out of orbit, and they're going back to orbit, and we don't know what they are.
We ought to focus on that.
That's really interesting.
We could probably plausibly spend a reasonable amount of money and make a lot of headway in trying to identify what are the signatures that these things give off that we can then begin to track with this huge system that we have that's global and in outer space.
Then I would want to spend some money on propulsion.
And probably have some money, you'd need some money for testing some theories.
The nuclear weapons issue that you mentioned, monitoring our nuclear weapons, if that's going on, and there are a lot of reports...
Supposedly in 1973 is a story I just heard the other day from a foreign correspondent.
During the 73 war, we went to DEFCON 2. In Australia, a UFO appeared over a Navy communications system for submarine-launched ballistic missiles and just hovered for about a half an hour.
Again, unverified, but this is the story.
Well, if that kind of thing has any plausibility in these reports about interfering with RSAVMs, you might set up a collection event when you know we're going to be moving some things because it's a pre-planned exercise or something.
So maybe you keep an eye out and set some special collection up just in case something does get triggered by that or happens.
That would be pertinent to the Chinese and Russians.
As well.
I mean, nothing would be higher on their collection list than trying to understand any kind of new technology we had having to do with nuclear weapons.
So you might learn something, again, not saying it's aliens.
Both countries have active UFO groups and the government seems to be connected to both of them and allowing them to exist and maybe encouraging them, probably getting some intelligence from them.
Read our papers and they may well listen to this podcast, for example.
They've got some people trying to figure out what's going on with the Americas.
Have they really got this technology or is this from somewhere else?
At least that's part of what appears to be happening, but they certainly have had their own incidents.
And over the years, we've been told about that.
One of the famous incidents that we had actually during Blue Book occurred in Russia, and it was a U.S. senator who was visiting Russia, and he and some of the staff while they were in Russia, it was...
It was one of the senators.
It was a majority leader or speaker of the House, very prominent U.S. politician who was on a rare Cold War visit to the Soviet Union and saw this flying saucer from the train he was on and other people there saw it.
France has had an official UFO investigative group for probably decades.
And small office, small budget, but they every year take, say, the top six cases from the police and the military and analyze them and bring in some scientists and engineers and see what they can make of that.
So they've been doing that for a long time, and there have been years where they've had more UFO reports, at least per capita, than we have.
So if the president had listened to this podcast and took an interest in this and wanted to have a conversation with you, what do you think you would tell him?
I think certainly if we did some of the things I was talking about, we'd be better off.
We'd gain some new knowledge and insight.
Where that takes us is hard to say.
You know, different directions it could go, but we'd be better off for it.
Mining these anomalies can be very profitable.
And I've suggested creating an office called the Office of Strategic Anomaly Resolution.
And when our increasingly technical intelligence community detects things that are really weird and anomalous, like this business of these beams that are, you know, we're hitting the people in the Havana embassy, and you need some really smart technical people, you've got something just really weird, you have a sort of group of scientists and engineers who are focused that you can take these kinds of things to, and they can figure out what to do with it or where to take it.
So what we're talking about is employees of the...
The U.S. government in Havana, mostly but elsewhere in addition to Havana, have started feeling very ill, headaches, a range of symptoms, loss of energy.
And it seems that they have been targeted with some kind of a RF weapon, some kind of electromagnetic radiation from a distance.
And we do know that the Russians in particular I have been developing devices like that for decades and they used to use them on our embassy in Moscow all the time for different kinds of collection purposes, different techniques.
So that's suspicious.
Cuba is a country where they could plausibly test something like that and have a degree of deniability.
They've got, you know, freedom of action down there.
They're still one of the few supporting governments that supports the regime there.
So it's someplace they might undertake further testing in a real world setting if they wanted to.
It's something that could be mobile and not clear what the objective is, whether it's to make people sick or whether is this incidental?
They're trying to get stuff off the computers and the people just happen to be close to the computers.
And they're trying to put a beam through there that scrapes energy off the screen or something.
We don't really know, but there seems to be a pattern to this stuff.
My friend Mike Swick, shout out to Mike Swick, he used to work for the, I think it was the Secret Service, and they had an embassy in Moscow, and they detected these devices that the Soviet Union had installed inside the walls that were listening devices that were powered by the movement of the building in the wind.
I know that we found antennas embedded in the concrete of the U.S. Embassy as it was being constructed, the new embassy that brought the entire construction to a halt.
Known as the Great Seal Bug, one of the first covert listening devices, or bugs, to use passive techniques to transmit an audio signal.
It was concealed inside a GIF given by the Soviet Union to W. Averill Harriman, United States Ambassador to the Soviet Union, August 4th, 1945. Because it was passive, needing electromagnetic energy from an outside source to become energized and activate, it's considered a predecessor of radio frequency identification technology.
I don't think that's exactly what he was talking about.
He was talking about these bugs that were – they were actually powered by – you know, and the wind moves – you know, like your – A little kinetic energy.
Yeah, you have a watch.
It's an automatic watch.
You move your watch and that's what powers the watch.
They've been exploring all kinds of things like that.
And we actually – it cost the U.S. taxpayer hundreds of millions because halfway through the construction of the new U.S. embassy, They found in the concrete forms antenna shapes that made no sense to us.
We didn't know what the hell they were.
And weird designs and shapes that were intercepting some of our stuff and modifying it or using construction people outside of our supervision to do this.
And they had other things with the pipes and the wires.
All kinds of attacks on the embassy.
And some of it looked like physics that was hard for us to understand.
News to me, we have validated the fact that he has developed a nuclear missile that is kind of like imagine a nuclear cruise missile with incredible range and maneuverability.
So that's something I don't know how much success they've had with it but they really do have a project like that and they have done some testing.
So there have been some advances under his time, under his tenure.
But I don't know, I don't think, I've not heard anything about triangular objects.
He's tried to solve this problem from the congressional side of terms of the lack of interest of the U.S. government by putting some money on it, which created this AATIP program, the Advanced Airborne Identity Threat Program, Advanced Aerospace Threat Program.
So he's been involved for a long time, been very...
Well, Chris, this has been a very enlightening and interesting conversation, and I really appreciate your time, and I really appreciate your openness to discussing this stuff, because I know it does for a person that's a serious person.
Well, I also think there's enough evidence at this point in time, and thankfully, because of the New York Times article from 2017, it's loosened a lot of the stigma attached to it.
And a lot of this, like we showed, the gimbal, the FLIR, the go fast video, this is wild shit.
And if we can't explain it, you can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist.