Katie Spotz, ultra-endurance athlete and accidental adventurer, rows 3,000 miles across the Atlantic in 70 days—mentally grueling but physically manageable—while raising $150,000 for clean water projects via her nonprofit, H2O for Life. Her focus on global water crises stems from research revealing one in six people lack safe drinking water, with conflicts over access potentially sparking future wars. Spotz prefers liquid nutrition and hydration discipline to avoid rhabdo or hyponatremia, blending lessons from Ironman training with sauna rituals discussed with Joe Rogan. Their conversation pivots to resilience, structured routines, and biomechanics—like Jim Thorpe’s 1912 Olympic feats in garbage-can shoes—highlighting how discipline trumps fleeting motivation. Spotz hints at a June world-record running challenge, exploring fatigue adaptation, while Rogan offers sponsorship and recovery tech, underscoring endurance as a testament to curiosity over competition. [Automatically generated summary]
I definitely was nervous, and I think that is a good thing to be able to channel that energy to make sure bad things don't happen, but that was definitely more my comfort zone than doing something like this.
Well I think that like the last endurance challenge it was like running 33 hours straight and I think that hit my physical limit more than the row did like after the row I felt like my body could probably continue going but it was just yeah more mentally challenging.
So I would definitely consider myself more like an accidental adventurer.
So I had to take a gym class to get my high school diploma.
And through process of elimination, I wanted to find like the easiest A because at that point I was like a bench warmer and I didn't really excel in those team sports.
The Easy A was a walking running class, and I signed up just trying to do the bare minimum, and it was during that class where I was like, okay, I'm already forced to be here.
I might as well try to run, and I set that target of running one mile straight.
And I never thought I could do that.
And so when I did run one mile straight, it was probably equivalent to people who run a marathon, you know?
Just feeling like really elated and that's the seed that planted all the adventures to come.
It's really just that one mile and realizing that I was limiting myself by what what I thought was possible and one mile turned into two, two into three and that was really how I did my first marathon and every every event was like started from really that place that one mile.
So, in middle school, I, like most people, did all the sports, all the team sports, and the focus was like, oh, hey, let's hang out, let's make friends.
And my priority was definitely just hanging out with friends.
I didn't have that competitive sense about it.
And once it got too competitive, I kind of checked out because I was like, why are you guys making a big deal about this?
Do you know what I mean?
Like...
You see it when the parents are more invested and you're like, settle down.
So when it became stressful and not fun, that's when I checked out and I didn't really have interest in that.
And so when it became my own, when it became something that was very internally driven and not...
Anything other than the pure curiosity.
I would say that people who do athletic things, they could be driven by many things.
And I would say at the core, one of the driving factors is just a kid-like wonder of, can I climb a tree?
Can I do this?
Can I do that?
And I think curiosity is very underrated in that it could really propel you to see what's possible.
Curiosity time and time and again has like brought me to do things that I never imagined doing.
Do you still think back to that first mile like completing that first mile and that elation the feeling of elation where you were like oh my god like a new doors opened.
Like, some of my friends, now that, like, I'm more in ultra running, it's like, we'll hear ourselves.
I mean, I'm not exempt from this, but saying things like, oh, it's just a mile or just five mile or just a marathon or just whatever you want to adjust it.
But, like, I still don't feel like I've lost sight of that because, I mean, I know this is kind of harsh, but, like, sometimes I say to my friends, like, well, tell that to someone who can't walk.
Like, It really is worthy of celebrating every step, every mile.
And so, I mean, yeah, I think there's like...
It's just one achievement opens the door to other ones and so yeah I definitely don't feel like I've lost that sense and I think that's important to keep just so I don't know it keeps you in that humble state rather than expecting that just because you did it you can.
I mean, like, one of the things that I'll get now is, like...
Oh, I could never run a marathon.
And my first thing is like, oh, which ones have you tried?
And of course they're like, no, I've never tried.
And I'm like, well, there you go.
You actually have to try.
And if you haven't tried, then you really don't know if that's truthful that you can't run a marathon.
So, yeah, I think we get in our own ways more than than anything else.
And I'm not saying like you know there it was my first mile running was very like not graceful it was like basically I was like I want to get this over with as fast as possible so I was completely winded I didn't know how to pace myself and like I don't know the whole like reason behind it but it's like you have that metal mouth you know about that yeah it's like when something I don't do you know the science behind that
And I was like talking to someone sitting next to me.
And we were talking about endurance challenges.
And I was a stubborn know-it-all 19 year old.
So of course, I was like, Oh, I've heard it all.
I know people climb Mount Everest.
I know people sail around the world.
I know about all these things and Then he mentioned his friend rode across the Atlantic, and that was, like, that just stopped me in my tracks.
Like, what?
Like, people can do that?
Like, I never, it was so far beyond anything I ever imagined.
And, um...
I think, like, with endurance, what's so cool about endurance is, like, at a certain point, everyone's body hurts, right?
So what makes endurance, like, a really cool experience is seeing how the human will and how, like, determination, how a strong mind, like, it's a requirement because everyone, no matter how fast or slow you are, is going through that mental wall.
And so, yeah, I found out about ocean rowing, and I was really captivated not only by that mental component, because, like, if you do a marathon, you go home, you take your shower, you have people cheering you on, but ocean rowing, you're stripped raw of that.
And something about that...
Was intriguing to me because it's like, okay, how can you dig deep internally when you don't have the, you know, the finish line, you know, whatever party and like the swag and the people and the nice cozy bed.
And I just kind of I liked that idea of like, being so stripped raw that you have to dig deeper than you ever would, if you didn't have all those other externals.
So yeah, I found out about it on a bus.
I went home and went and Googled everything I could about ocean rowing.
And it was at a time where I did my first ultramarathon.
So it was like a hundred kilometer run.
We're 62 miles.
And it was, again, one of those moments where I was like, I never thought I could do that.
And my body proved otherwise.
So what are all the other things that I'm saying I can't do, but maybe I can?
So it was really that information.
At that particular time, where I was really open to the idea of, wow, maybe it is possible, but it was a matter of researching everything.
It wasn't like, oh, I got to do this.
It was, oh, I got to find out everything.
Because, I mean, if someone told you someone rode across the Atlantic, wouldn't the first thing be like, is that really true?
So, like, physical training, like, compared to doing, like, I've trained for, like, Ironmans and then trained for adventures, like, purely physical to, like, these more adventure-type things.
And, like, training for an Ironman, 90% is, like, what you're doing in the gym.
For ocean rowing and for the more adventure-type athletic pursuits, I would say that 90% was the logistics.
You could be the most fit person in the world, but if you don't have a boat, what does it matter?
So I spent most of my time just sorting out through all the logistics, the sponsorship, getting the gear, training with the gear, but...
Yeah, like my training priorities for rowing and ocean were injury prevention.
So I did a lot with like strengthening my core and my lower back.
And then on the weekends is when I would do like a six to eight hour row, training row, just to get more, to get used to the boat and the equipment more than anything else.
I mean, in some ways it felt like I was just, like, living this National Geographic experience of, like, you know, I had dolphins come right up to my boat.
Oh, really?
Yeah, yeah.
Like, I think it was, like, the fourth way mark.
I was like, I want to celebrate.
And my way of celebrating was very limited.
It was like, oh, am I going to have two Snickers bars?
Like...
There's not really anything other than what I had, but this pod of dolphins surrounded my boat and we're doing like flips and tricks.
Really?
Right at that moment that I was reaching it.
So yeah, the dolphins and sharks and birds and I even had like Fish following right underneath my boat like because barnacles would grow it was like I on on the side of my boat I would scrub them off but sometimes they would just keep following my boat so every time I I named them Ed Ed and Eddie but I had like three Dorados that would keep following and birds that came on my boat
and wow yeah I didn't think that there would be that many birds out there but I Yeah, how are they getting out there?
Yeah, which is crazy because I was doing that journey to raise money for clean water, and yet I had a better source of water than a billion people, so that was just like, yeah.
When you say you replace it with salt water, did you have containers that you would take the ballast water out and put it into some sort of a drinkable container?
Now, when you're getting this from this guy who's done it, did he look at you and go, Katie, don't I think he was so excited to have someone lined up to buy it because there's not many people who want to buy it.
So there's no way I would have been able to do it without sponsors.
So there were some Cleveland companies that were able to partner up.
The purpose behind it, there's definitely a purpose behind why I do what I do, and that's always been water.
And so there were also some companies that shared the vision and passion that, you know, everyone on our planet should have clean water and there's ways to do that.
Right now I'm working with an organization called H20 for Life, and they partner with schools here in the United States to help schools get clean water all around the world.
And what's also really cool about them is they create service learning opportunities for schools here.
And I think that, you know, sometimes when I'm involved with clean water, it's like, well, what are you doing here?
And H2O for Life does do things here to help kids feel part of something bigger, to help kids develop empathy and concern and care for other people.
So I think what they do is pretty unique in that they can both help others outside the United States and both help fill that need for kids here to feel part of something.
So the row raised $150,000 for water projects.
And then through all the different adventures, it's been about $400,000.
So what made it, like when you were thinking about doing this, what made Clean Water, what made that the thing that you chose to have as your main charitable organization?
So I was living in Australia and they were experiencing a pretty significant drought.
And Australia is very developed and to see the major headlines, to see the rules like Oh, you can't water your grass right now.
You can't wash your car right now.
And just to see that happening and somewhere so developed, it had it in the back of my mind.
Like, wow, water isn't something that should be taken for granted and it isn't just this unlimited resource.
And so I was studying environmental science and I remember one of my professors mentioned that the wars of the future would be on water.
And in some countries it's already the case.
To me, that was kind of like that one sentence that I couldn't unlearn, I couldn't stop thinking about.
And it just hit me at a core of like, that is so wrong.
And I, yeah, I was 19 or 20. And at that point, I felt like I had like a little bit because of traveling, like I had a little bit of a sense of what was going on in the world.
But to know at that point one in six people didn't have clean water, I was like, wow, I didn't even know about one-sixth of our planet and what their daily struggle is.
The fact that it's a problem that has a solution and it's something that...
Like, I don't know what cause could have as big an impact as water because you think, like, okay, what can you live without?
You can't even survive three days without water.
And just, like, thinking about health, half of the hospital beds are filled because of unsafe drinking water.
If you think about environment, if you think about education.
For children in the world, the greatest killer is diarrheal disease, and that is because of unsafe drinking water.
There's this documentary that came out within the last year called, I think it's Brave Blue World, and Matt Damon shared something at the beginning about, like, imagine that right now we find the cure for all childhood cancers.
And then imagine in 50 years from now, these kids are still dying from this very cancer that we have a cure for, and that is what's happening with clean water.
I mean, if you, it just, I don't know, it still boils my blood just like thinking about like how wrong it is.
And when you see how wrong it is, I mean, I feel like of course I would want to support that and do something.
When I first started learning about it, the first water project I was able to fund was in Haiti, and I was learning about how some places they don't even give their kids a name until they're five years old because...
Okay, so who's affected by the water crisis?
Women and children.
Children, their bodies aren't strong enough to withstand and to fight back all the bacteria and viruses and all the things.
Yeah, exactly.
So they won't even give their kids names until they think they'll be able to live.
Right?
So, like, just thinking about that is, like, these are real people.
And, like, just the idea of not even giving your child a name because of that fear of, like, they might not even live, so you don't even want to get, like...
And also like for females, if there aren't any like latrines, like once they hit puberty and they're having their menstrual cycle, they will just not go to school anymore because they don't have a way to, you know, take care of themselves.
So women and children are definitely the ones who are affected the most.
So they have partners in the field building all the different projects and there's been maybe 40 or 50 projects that were funded through all the different adventures and then I have been able to visit some of them in Kenya and South Africa after the fact, after the projects were built and yeah.
So, Rotary Clubs, you probably have seen their signs like, oh, we're meeting every Tuesday at 8. So it's usually like leaders in the community get together once a week and they do local and global service projects.
So it's a service organization.
So there's your local one, then there's districts, and then they meet for like global conferences.
But basically, yeah, their focus is how can we make our community better locally and globally.
And so we've partnered on different like fundraisers and And then, so there's partnering with schools, partnering with Rotary Clubs, and then part of like whenever I do speaking, I do it in return for donations to the cause.
And then finally, some corporate sponsors will do like a matching fund challenge.
So whatever other individuals raise, they'll match that.
So it's definitely like...
Seeing who's interested and who's also passionate about it, but there's definitely never been like this is how it's always been.
It's kind of working with what interests of others that also want to do something.
Um, I definitely feel called to do like, so with ocean rowing, most people go from like one island to another because you're right within the trade winds.
So it takes about 100 miles offshore until you're right in those trade winds.
And so I was very intentional about the row in going mainland to mainland.
And the reason behind that is just because I've always thought it would be so cool to go around the whole world by human power.
And when that idea came or whatever, I basically said, okay, so what's the hardest part?
What's the part you're most likely to fail?
And if you're going around the whole world...
The row is the part that you're most likely to fail.
Half of the people do.
And it's the most expensive.
And I would never want to go on this around the world trip and then fail at the last leg.
And so that was always the original vision of just like, Going completely around the world by human power.
And I think realistically it would be done in legs.
So I would like to do the next leg, which would be cycling from where I landed in South America.
So I landed in Georgetown, Guyana.
And then cycling from South America to North America.
And that would take probably about a year.
But yeah, so that was always like something.
But it's not, the reason I haven't done it is because I have a lot of other things that I've done and am doing that I'm interested in.
And I always thought a journey like that is something that you could do much older.
Because there's a certain kind of fitness you need for an Ironman versus cycle touring.
And I kind of wanted my 20s to be more racing and more pushing.
I really enjoyed doing Ironman after Ironman after Ironman and just feeling fast.
And the more I do endurance, the...
I'm losing that speed.
And so it's kind of like a balance.
And so I, yeah, I think the around the world trip certainly would be something I'd love to explore doing.
I am also aware that like, for endurance, being in my 30s is probably the best for recovery.
So although I think people could cycle around the world in their 60s and 70s, I think I would enjoy it more now just because of that ability to recover and like sleeping in a tent and dealing with all like the climate and just kind of living wild like that.
Yeah, that would be one of the challenges that I could see pursuing probably in legs rather than just doing the whole thing because it would be like three years.
I don't do these things because I don't have concern.
I definitely was concerned about the ocean and I think that's why I spent so much time researching it and asking all those questions and looking at what were the backups.
I definitely took it very seriously and took those risks very seriously, but I don't know, like...
And it's known because it's like the continental shelf.
So it jumps from being thousands of feet deep to pretty shallow.
So it's known to have these like waves and winds and it's just known for that kind of thing.
I had an option of landing there, but I would need a boat to tow me in because I could crash into cliffs or crash into something because it's so impossible to be precise when you have those big waves.
So that's where the detour happened.
So I ended up two countries west of my original destination because I didn't want to tow.
My buddy Cam, he does a lot of them, Cam Haynes, he's done the Moab 240 and the Bigfoot, whatever it is, Bigfoot 2, it's like 205 or something like that.
By yourself, alone in the ocean, for fucking days and days and days and days and days and days with phospholuminescent water and the stars and dolphins are playing with you.
I mean, like, even in Ironmans, like, of course, there's these people who finish in eight, nine hours, but sometimes the most impressive thing, like, one of the races I did, my friends and I, we stayed until the last person came.
And this person was out there for 17 hours, like...
And they made it just within like 20 more seconds to go.
And like, yeah, it's almost just as inspiring, if not more, to see that person who's just barely made it than the one who's just like, oh, I could do that again.
But there's not one person that's the most impressive.
One of the more interesting things about doing a podcast is that you can talk to people from all walks of life.
And so my understanding of human beings is very broad in a sense that, like, oh, I met someone like her.
Oh, I know a person like that.
Oh, that guy.
Yeah, that's like this person.
If you just live in the same place and communicate with the same people and you don't get out and you don't travel and you don't meet really unique and interesting people, you have an idea.
You have a little box that you look to put human beings in.
My box is enormous.
So what I think of what's possible with people is enormous.
So it's made me very, very open-minded in terms of what's possible, in terms of just the different kinds of people, different styles of human being.
Because that's kind of what it's like.
There's different styles of human being.
What does that mean?
I think it means when you have an expertise in one subject, you grossly overestimate your understanding of other subjects.
It's that they don't understand what they're talking about.
Because they believe that because they're so good at this one thing, maybe plyometrics, explosive training, that you talk to them about yoga and they'll be dismissive of it.
I'm like, well, how often are you doing it?
Listen, I've done a lot of shit.
Yoga's hard.
It's good.
I don't think it's the only thing you should do.
I talked to this one lady.
She used to go to my yoga class and she was in her 50s and she was fucking shredded.
She had this crazy six-pack and super jacked.
And I go, you don't just do yoga.
And she goes, no, no, no.
I do a lot of weightlifting and I do a lot of CrossFit and stuff like that.
She goes, I don't think you should just do yoga.
She goes, but I think you should do yoga.
And I was like, yeah, I kind of agree.
Because I think just doing yoga, you get one of them weird guru bodies.
You know?
You're real bendy, but it doesn't seem like you can help anybody move a couch.
I think weightlifting, especially as you get older, I think it's imperative.
I really think it's important.
Some sort of resistance training just to keep your bone density and keep your muscles and tendons strong.
But yoga has some profound mental benefits, some psychological benefits.
And it's hard!
It's fucking hard.
Like, holding on to those...
I like to do hot yoga, too.
So holding on to those poses when it's 105 degrees and you're watching sweat pour off of you and your heart's pounding out of your chest.
Because it makes your body produce heat shock proteins, which makes it better.
See, this is another thing that people get screwed up.
They say, oh, no, no, it's not that hard.
It just seems hard because it's hot.
No, no, no.
It's fucking hard.
And it's harder because it's hot.
So your body has to work harder.
It feels harder because it is.
Because it's more difficult for your body.
So because it's more difficult for your body, your body has to produce these cytokines.
And that is massive.
It's massive for inflammation benefits.
And there's actually a study they're doing at Harvard right now about hot yoga.
And they're trying to find out if hot yoga has similar benefits to that...
Was it Finland that did that sauna study?
I keep fucking it up.
I always say Norway.
Finland, right?
Yeah.
There's a study that they did out of Finland that showed a 40% decrease in all-cause mortality for people that did sauna.
I think it's at 170 degrees, 20 minutes, four times a week.
40% decrease of all-cause mortality, heart attack, stroke, cancer, everything across the board because of the heat shock protein benefit, because of the fact that your body is kind of freaking out because of that heat.
So it produces those cytokines and that has massive benefits for your health and psychological benefits.
So, one of the coaches I worked with for Ironman, like, I used to do hot yoga a lot, and his concern for me in doing that on top of Ironman training was just like, okay, so you are already so dehydrated.
Like, hydration is already so hard with training, whatever, 20 hours of sweating by running and biking and swimming.
So, that's the only thing that I've heard, like, I don't know, have you heard anything about that, like, You definitely can get dehydrated if you don't plan accordingly.
Yeah, so whenever you're working out, you're ideally breaking down your muscles because that's how they grow stronger.
So from my understanding, I mean, I'm not like a...
But from my understanding is that it's like when your muscles are breaking down, it's in your bloodstream, and your kidneys are trying really hard to filter it out, filter out.
And if there's so much breakdown, it's beyond your kidneys' ability to filter, filter, filter, so it could cause kidney failure.
And a lot of people have knee issues, which is because of weak hips.
And so I think what's really great about rollerblading is it targets the very areas that are often very, like, underdeveloped with running and biking and repetitive...
And then I think there's the stabilizing muscles.
And, like, you'll get that with, like, the Pilates and things like, you know, one-legged type drills.
And I don't necessarily think the stabilizers, like...
From my experience, if my quads are really strong and I'm trying to run, I'm going to rely on my quads.
And I'm not going to be like, hamstrings work really hard because I already know my quads are really strong.
But with rollerblading, I think it gets into all these little stabilizing muscles.
So the areas that I'm really sore from rollerblading is my low back.
And that's another area that matters a lot with running because...
Like, I think running, you could definitely think about, like, your strength and your muscle.
But what's also, from my understanding, is, like, 30% of your run efficiency happens, like, because of your form.
And, yeah, low back definitely helps with form and...
I don't know.
I was just thinking about what sports are fun, and I don't think you could be in a bad mood while rollerblading.
no it's it's it's not skating it's like oh yeah like a blade yes oh so i cannot stop very well well that sucks and so i would not want to go across america if i didn't know how to stop why don't you go roller skating is that too easy oh no i don't i i feel like it's for babies oh you want to go fast i mean it does feel like ricky bobby Well, I mean, who wants to go slow?
I think when you don't think you could ever do a backflip and then all of a sudden you can hit two in a row or do a tuck and do a forward one and you start doing it and then you get better and your form gets better.
It's like everything else.
It's like martial arts.
Martial arts are really hard.
But when you get good at it, it's like, wow, it feels like you're in a real live video game.
I think it's fascinating when I talk to someone like you that is willing to row across the fucking ocean and you're saying it would take time to do the splits.
And I'm like, but wouldn't it help you to be flexible?
He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you definitely would.
And I'm like, why aren't you fucking stretching?
And he's like, well, it's really hard.
You know?
I'm like, no, it's not.
Like, you fucking climb El Cap with no ropes.
It's the same thing with you.
It's like people are crazy.
People have this thing that they do that's really difficult that they don't think is difficult, and then they look at something else, and they'll be like, I can never play piano.
It's kind of the same thing.
We put limitations on ourselves.
You say, I would like to be able to do the splits.
I swear to God, if you lived in Austin, I could get you to do the splits in 30 days.
Yeah, and what it's great for is your hip flexors.
You can lift like this.
You're lifting weights up with your legs and doing leg curls with it.
It's phenomenal.
It's really good.
And it's amazing how fucking weak your legs are.
In those ways.
Even if you do a lot of squats, I can squat and deadlift and put some pretty heavy weight on the rack, but this is like 25 pounds, it's difficult for me to do a leg curl.
I'm like, oh, this is shocking.
Because I was like, these dumbbells, like 25 pounds, they're probably not going to be enough.
That's what I was thinking.
I'm probably going to have to curl like 75, 80 pounds.
No.
25 pounds.
I'm like, five reps in.
I'm like, oh shit.
I'm falling apart here.
Seven, eight.
I'm like, that's crazy.
25 pounds is nothing.
I thought, my legs carry me around all day.
But it's such an odd way for you to lift weights with your legs.
Yeah, so you hook that thing onto your sneaker, and then the barbell, or the dumbbell rather, at the bottom hooks onto this thing, and it's easy to take on and off.
As I'm doing this thing, there's this guy, he's got a, it's called Knees Over Toes.
He's got this protocol for strengthening your knees.
And it's crazy what this guy can accomplish.
Physically, like what he's capable of, and this is a guy that's had a ton of different surgeries, and one of his key moves, like these kind of moves, where they would always tell you, don't ever have your knees over your toes when you squat.
And he's like, no, the reason why is because your knees aren't stable.
Build your way up to that, but then work those muscles, and you get phenomenal strength, what he calls dense strength, in your legs.
But I would say, like, even in a 100-mile run, I think what's hardest is the first 10 miles.
Because what I don't have is endorphins.
And endorphins give you energy.
Endorphins mask pain.
Endorphins, like, I think, yeah, what's, you know, some...
Yeah, like, you assume that the farther you go, the harder it is, but sometimes the farther I go, the easier it gets, which is kind of cool to experience.
Yeah, I have done that for like Iron Man's, but the more I do it, the more I just kind of treat it like a little science experiment where it's like, okay, what's 30% of what I'm burning and what's like, yeah.
And if you adjust to the liquid only, I think it ends up being a lot better.
Um, one time I did do an Ironman and the coach that I was working with is like, it's like you went to the buffet and just had a little bit of everything and like, because I think I had like, like those, not like turkey jerky, but like, Just, like, that kind of thing, and then fruity things, and, um, yeah.
I think I was so nervous, and I was like, okay, I need to make sure I have sugar and salt and this, and so, um, that definitely, like, it's not that I had to stop, but it just was like, I didn't feel as good and, um, Yeah, I've definitely felt nauseous during some of these races, but it doesn't help with Ironman that you're kind of hunched over and it's hard to keep anything down.
A lot of people can't even keep things down when they're working out at that level.
Like, I read something recently about, like, the conditions for people who are working at, like, animal processing plants and how, like, it kind of, like, animal processing plants and how, like, it kind of, like, there's a certain kind of, like, PTSD that they experience and how, like, how mentally it affects if your job is to kill animals all day.
It's also just, you understand where meat comes from.
You have a much deeper connection to your food than if you're just going and buying Chick-fil-A. Totally.
Yeah, we're fucking weird.
What we're doing with animals is weird in this country.
And our solution might be even weirder.
There's two solutions, right?
One of them is to pretend that this slop that's pushed into a patty is some kind of a meat product when it's beyond meat.
It's beyond good for you.
That shit's terrible for you.
If you want to eat vegetarian, you should eat actual, real, whole food.
Eat real vegetables.
Vegetables are good for you.
That shit's not good for you.
They've done these studies on rats, and with one of those substitute meat burgers, they've shown increasing liver cancer and all these problems these rats are having.
The other one that's weird is lab-grown meat.
That's strange to me.
But sounds like it might be a way better alternative than factory farming if they can get it right.
But it just seems like, wow, we're moving so close to headless things that you just saw parts off of and they're twitching and trying to get away.
But it doesn't matter because they don't have a head.
Poor people having to be dealing with obesity is usually because of the, like, what is the, it's like called a food desert when there's places that they don't even have fresh foods.
So I think, yeah, like, if you lack financial resources, that's even more reason that you wouldn't be able to access that.
Not only that, it's a terrible cycle to try to get out of.
If you grow up in that environment, you live in that environment, and you grow up eating that way, and your family eats that way, and the people around you eat that way, and everyone around you is poor, it's super hard to get out of that.
It's also, you know, like we were talking about before that I've, from having all these conversations with people, my box, my understanding of human beings is way wider.
It's way different.
Because I've experienced all these people.
If you only experience a small number of people, your box would be very small that you put people in.
Well, if your environment is so important and if your environment is very limiting and if you're only experiencing bad food and shitty people and poverty and being in this weird crime-ridden area, that's your box.
It's very hard for a person like that to escape.
It's very hard for a person like that to recalibrate their view of the world.
And I don't understand why we don't put more effort into trying to expand the box that these people live in.
The perspective that these people have.
Because it would benefit everybody.
And I don't I've always said this, and I was saying this when Trump was in office and he was like, make America great again.
This is how you make America great again.
Make it so there's less losers.
Less people lose at life.
And I don't mean losers like there's something wrong with them.
I mean like they got a bad hand.
If you're playing poker, And you have four aces, and I have a one.
I'm fucked, right?
And that's a lot of people's lives.
Well, if you have more people who have better hands, then you have a better, stronger country because you have more competition, you have more opportunity, you have more exceptional people.
Through that competition, more people are going to rise, more people are going to innovate, more people are going to create businesses and chase their dreams, and it's going to inspire more people, you're going to have less crime.
A big one is the way people grow up and the environment they grow up in and the people that grow up without hope and what they're imitating.
Because people imitate their atmosphere when they're children, they grow up.
You're seeing people that are constantly going to jail, constantly involved in violence, constantly involved in crime, and you become acclimated to that.
That's what you're used to.
That needs to be fixed.
If you grow up in, you know, pick a nice place, you know, some Boulder, Colorado, or whatever, it's not like that, right?
It's beautiful.
It's kind people.
Everybody's friendly.
It's different, right?
Because you don't have the same pressure.
You don't have gangs in Boulder.
You don't have all the, you know, so these places, it's just literally a matter of, the universe gave you a shitty roll of the dice, and you were born into a bad neighborhood.
I guess one of my encouragements in that is like sometimes like when you have, like you said, Boulder, Colorado, everyone's friendly and do like the nice things, right?
Not everyone.
But the nice things, like sometimes there's the diamond in the rough and sometimes under that pressure, something can be born that wouldn't be born without all the chaos and all the...
And so maybe those, while I would never wish poverty well, I would never wish crime and all those heartaches, I have seen the stories.
I have, you know, I think anyone can identify with, oh, this thing was really hard, but then this beautiful thing came from it.
So, yes, and I think some of the biggest redemption stories come from places where something is so broken that someone rises to do something about it or, I don't know.
I think that challenges are very good for people, but I don't necessarily think the kind of challenges that you get if you're born in the south side of Chicago and you're watching people get shot all the time.
But out of those environments comes a pretty amazing exceptional people because they've risen through all these obstacles and through that adversity they've gained tremendous character.
When you have children, one of the things that's ironic is, for me at least, all my favorite people came from a fucked up environment.
All of them.
All of them came from either crime-ridden neighborhoods or horrible upbringings or chaos.
And through that, they've developed this amazing character.
Because most of my favorite people are either...
Fighters, martial artists, or stand-up comedians.
That's most of the group that I hang around with.
And they're all from chaos.
All of them.
But through that, I'm just so lucky that I know these exceptional people that are just...
They're so...
They're so battle-tested.
And then some people are just made out of Jell-O. Some people, they're little bags, little skinny, fucking thin-walled, like, Ziploc bags of Jell-O. There's no character, no form, and they just don't have any ability to weather the storm.
And you develop character through those challenges.
And I think that's why sports are so important for people.
Because some of the most fucked up people that I know, in terms of psychologically and their ability to cope and adapt and form relationships, they never competed.
They don't know how to lose.
And they consider, because I think there's something in human beings where competing is an inherent, it's a part of your DNA in some strange way.
And I think, like, it comes from survival.
I think it comes from stealing and conquering and taking from one person because you don't have enough.
And there's this weird sort of thing that humans evolved doing when they were just scratching and scrounging before civilization came along.
And civilization came along and then it calmed down a little bit because it's like it's less important to do that and more important that everybody stick together and keep the wall strong to keep the invaders from coming in.
But if you don't know how to lose, if you don't know how to pick yourself back up and try again, you're not going to be good at relationships.
You're not going to be good at compromise.
You're not going to be good at understanding defeat.
You're not going to be good at understanding objective analysis of your own behavior, objective analysis of your skill set.
The people who can't do that are almost all people that have never had those super uncomfortable moments where you do lose.
I think those are hugely valuable lessons for people.
I was listening to a TED talk and it was about like this guy who set out on a quest to fail and like it at the end it was so hard for him to like or be rejected and like yeah it's almost like our society is so like all about success and like just kind of I know that TED talk you're talking about yeah and he had to try to go to the neighbors and he wanted to like plant a shrub in their front yard and they're Like,
Like, your arms hurt, and you realize, oh, I got kicked there.
Like, how come I can't pick something up with my left arm?
And then you realize, like, oh, yeah, I took a shin to my elbow.
Now my elbow's fucked up for a couple weeks.
Or I didn't tap out to this arm, and now I can't do a chin-up for a few weeks.
Because I decided I was going to try to be a meathead and muscle out of something instead of tapping.
And now I can't do a chin-up.
Like, and now my neck doesn't work so good because someone caught me in a guillotine.
Yeah, there's always that.
I think martial arts are a great vehicle for that.
What I always say is, and I learned this from my Taekwondo instructor when I was a kid, that martial arts is a vehicle for developing your human potential.
What you think you're doing is you're trying to win exchanges and fights and sparring rounds.
But what you're really trying to do is get better.
You're trying to get better and the problem is presenting itself in the form of this thinking, intelligent person that also can do all the things you can do.
So you're not kicking an inanimate object.
You're trying to kick a person who knows that you're trying to kick them.
And they know how to kick you and they're trying to kick you.
And so you're both doing it at the same time.
And it's this wild exchange of bones and technique.
The scary thing about jujitsu is injuring yourself, right?
It's like you get an ankle rolls and then your knee pops or you get caught in a funny thing and your neck gets fucked up.
That's what's scary about jujitsu.
And what's scary for a lot of people that do jujitsu is the idea that you're going to get hurt and you're not going to be able to do it because people get so addicted to it.
I would imagine you guys get a lot of stress fractures and Goggins sent me some pictures of his fucking knees where he got his knees drained and it was like these three giant tubes of blood that were in his knees.
I mean giant fucking syringes of blood and pus in his knees.
Most people think you have to be motivated before you run 100 miles or before you run a mile or before you do things.
But I find that motivation happens while or after you begin.
Like running one mile makes it easier to run the next mile.
Or like whatever it is, if you're writing a paper, it's a lot easier after you write the first page.
So like...
I don't even think motivation is that important.
Like, you don't need to wait to be motivated to do anything.
You just do it, and then motivation...
It's kind of like motivation equals movement, and it's easier to move once you kick the ball, and so the ball just keeps moving.
So even motivation, it's like, yes, of course, it's important, but if you just say, oh, I'm just going to do it, and motivation will eventually show up, it's kind of like you're...
We don't say, oh, do I feel like brushing my teeth today?
Do I feel like doing this?
Sometimes it's just like you make a choice, and whether you feel or don't feel, you've already just made a commitment, and you just understand that sometimes you feel or don't feel, but eh.
And then once you start doing it, once you're a couple steps in, three, four movements in, you know, you're on your third set, you're on your fifth set, then you're in it.
I mean, when I was, like, specifically trying to do it, I would definitely be, like, when I was going down, that was when I would try to take as much time versus even going up.
Shield cast is like, if you had it in your hand like this, like this, if this was the bar, you'd go like this, around, and then you hold it in front, and then you hold it in front like that.
And it's amazing for shoulder mobility and shoulder strength and endurance, and it's really good stuff.
And it's 15 pounds.
It's like if someone's like, alright, we're going to work out hard today, pick up the 15 pounds, people are like, get out of here, bitch.
He's doing a two-hander one.
So he's doing it with a, that looks like a heavier club.
That looks like probably maybe 25 or maybe even 35 pounds, which is a great way to work out, too, for the 35 pounds.
He got into running so he could have more endurance for bow hunting because he hunts elk in the mountains.
He considers that the ultimate challenge.
Yeah, so all of his endurance and all of his 100-mile races and all that shit, he got into all that, all of his crazy workout routines and lifting weights routines.
He got into that entirely to be the best bowhunter on Earth, and he arguably is.
He's certainly in the top three.
This is a tight argument for who's number one.
I tend to think he's number one because there's no one else who could do the stuff that he does on top of that, the physical things he does on top of that.
So he can get to places that other people...
Sometimes you'll see an elk, they'll cross a ridge, and you have to get to them before they get to a valley where they'll be out in the open.
He can get there quicker than anybody can.
And he can get there and not be tired.
So he could literally run after this animal, and his heart rate will be at a totally manageable level.
Whereas if I went after it, I'd be fucking dead.
Or fat guys, fucked.
He can get to places quicker.
And so his idea was...
I need to be in the best possible shape that I can to be the most successful.
It's something that generally has a less than 10% success rate is bow hunting for elk.
For the average person.
Not for a person like him, but for the average person.
But even a person like him, he's never unsuccessful.
Like every year he's successful, which is just nuts.
Like most people, you know, every year or two you come up empty because it's hard.
It's a hard thing to do.
Even if you're really good at it and you practice all the time, it's a difficult pursuit.
So his thing is very different than other people's thing because he's not doing it just to test himself.
He is definitely doing that, but he's also doing it because he wants to be the best bow hunter on earth.
The world of bow hunting is forever changed because of him, 100%.
Yeah, he's got countless people out there, men and women, that are training.
They're doing like rocking up hills with weights on their back.
They're doing all kinds of crazy different weightlifting workouts and running workouts and all these different things so that they can be fit.
In fact, since he started doing it, he's been doing it for decades, but they've actually developed these athletic contests that have to do with getting fit just for hunting.
So there's a bunch of different organizations that provide various workouts specifically designed for mountain hunters.
Because you're dealing with high altitude, very steep inclines, very difficult terrain.
You have to be fit.
It's the number one problem when I've talked to my friends that are guides that know the terrain and take people professionally to hunt.
I go, what's the number one problem?
It's like fitness.
The number one problem with the clients is fitness.
Yeah, I mean I know that people do the barefoot stuff and I think that just being on concrete, like the last ultra I did was like running across Maine and it was all concrete and even then I had edema which is like swelling of your ankles and stuff.
Um, so I, like, the first hundred miler I did, I remember waking up and, like, I had to go to the bathroom and I was like, okay, time to go to the bathroom.
And I remember, like, telling my legs to move and they didn't.
Um, so usually it takes, like, two days for me to be able to, like, walk again.
Um, Like, normally.
Stairs are usually really hard, but usually, like, for a lot of these events, I don't sleep well the first night just because I still have so much, like, adrenaline and so much, like, just really amped up.
But then, yeah, it's just a matter of, like, sleeping a lot and doing, like, light walks.
No, because of, like, chafing and, like, there's a lot of little injuries that happen that you might not be aware of until after the fact and, like, just little things like that.
So, yeah, really just sleeping and eating as you can tolerate it.
So when you think about doing something like this new thing that you can't talk about yet, when you plan—excuse me— When you plan something like this out, do you just say, okay, I need a wacky challenge.
I need something that really pushes me, something that's going to really get the fires going.
I didn't read about how everyone else did it and no one else had run across Maine.
So I didn't read about...
Who else ran this or that just because there's something so pure about doing something that hasn't been done before or like off the beaten path because you have no preconceived notion of what you are going to experience.
So one of the driving factors for me is just like the curiosity to find out.
And like now that I ran across Maine or did this or that, There's not that, like, ooh, I wonder.
So I think, yeah, I don't necessarily think I'll be doing the same of anything.
But with running, there's still, like cycling, I answered a lot of those questions already.
Swimming, I did like a 325-mile swim, so I feel like I answered those questions.
But I don't think that the questions have been answered about like the around the world trip because that has more to do with decision making on your feet and dealing with people finding out where to sleep finding out where like I don't know there's different challenges that aren't really as much physical like of course riding your bike 60 80 miles a day there's real physical challenges but For that adventure,
I'm driven by meeting people and seeing parts of the worlds that you never would and these chance encounters that you would never have had you not been on this road at this time.
So for running, I do feel like there are those questions of like, I've done, like, one really long run, but I'm curious to see how my body responds to doing one after another,
and, like, I think what I didn't experience in Maine is running on, like, fatigue the next day, and so that's kind of where, like, cycling across America, I've done that a couple times, and I've got to learn what that feels like, and also doing, like, 200 mile bike rides at one go.
And those are very different things.
But for running, I haven't experienced a multi-day running adventure.
I mean, I've talked to people about, like, their experiences if they have done ultra, like, more of the multi-day events.
And what I've been encouraged by is, like, I've heard that the...
And from biking across America, like, there's only so much you can do to train.
And if anything, you might overtrain or, like, just be so burnt out that you don't even want to do it anymore.
Yeah.
So I from what I've heard is like the training happens almost during like your body adapts and you need kind of a basic level of fitness but um and will yeah oh yeah definitely yeah but yeah that's what you saw with Eddie Izzard in that documentary that there was no real serious fitness level yeah in the beginning yeah I mean like which is kind of crazy It is.
But, yeah, I definitely, like, after doing marathons and stuff, you see all walks of life.
And even myself, people would be like, I think in triathlon, if you're over 140 pounds for some of those races, you're considered Athena and, like, plus size.
Homegirl who won Moab 240, the one who'd been on the show?
Yeah, Courtney DeWalter.
She's very small.
Like, what does Courtney weigh about?
I don't know.
She's tiny.
She's a savage.
She's also experienced that thing you were talking about, like blurred vision, to the point where she had, I think it was corneal edema, I think it's called, where her eyes were bleeding, so she couldn't see.
And she tripped and fell and smashed her head on a rock, so blood was pouring down her head.
Couldn't see.
She could barely see her feet in front of her and still won.
Yeah, it's just that alone, that example, the fact that she was literally going blind, never considered stopping, fell, smashed her head.
So there's a picture of her running where she's kind of blind with blood pouring out of her forehead and still wins the race.
That is a tough person.
you know i think it's really cool also in ultra running you'll see it more that women are holding their own and like compared to men like one she fucking won she beat the first guy the the the guy who came in second place by 10 hours wow 10 hours imagine imagine you train so hard you're like i'm a beast i'm just going out there and kick ass yeah like well i came in first for men oh you came in first for men Oh, interesting.
They say something about how females have a really high pain tolerance, so that's why it helps in ultras because of having babies and being able to handle that.
If there was like a way where you could experience, like a microchip, experience what it's like to be a guy for a day, they could plug into a guy's brain, be a guy for a day, would you do it?
I think it would be interesting to feel the difference in the hips.
Like men and women have a totally different hip structure, you know?
And that's one of the reasons why women have more ACL injuries and it's also more difficult for them to generate force, like kicking.
Like if you watch a really elite woman kick, even though you're carrying your body weight around versus a really elite man kick, there's a big difference in the amount of power that the men can generate.
And I'm sure a lot of that has to do with testosterone.
I'm sure there's a lot of variabilities.
But when I talked to a kinesiologist, he was explaining to me that it's also...
The way the hips are structured.
Because a woman's, especially if she has particularly wide hips, your bones angle in a different way, whereas a man's are straight.
And, like, the one thing that was being joked about is, like, the hair is the same, but now that I'm a woman, it's like $100 to cut my hair when it was only $10.
Like, so there were...
I mean, that is interesting because they could say definitively what are the differences, and that was, yeah, one of them.
I mean, I definitely, like, am attached to my body, like, and what it can do.
And I think that, I mean, I have a lot of friends that are athletes and have had kids, and I've seen how they have been able to, like, balance that, like, kind of regaining their body and being able to incorporate fitness.
But I mean, yeah, I guess that would be one of my fears about it, is just, like, having to let go of what my body is capable of.
But by saying that, I also think that there might be an even greater appreciation for my body because it's a human, not an Iron Man.
Like, I'm pretty sure a human is a little bit more, like, but, yeah, from where I stand now, it's like, boop.
I mean, right now I am very aware that things change and I am very cause and charity and that is also a huge focus for me.
But, yeah, a big part of my identity is these challenges, and a big part of where I get joy and excitement is around my body's ability to do these things.
But, I mean, I have had injuries enough to know that I am more than just running or biking.
I mean, I've been doing challenges for a decade now.
I think that, like, I've reached a limit in certain...
And I think what might be exciting to go back to is trying to get more speed.
Like, I've definitely lost speed and traded it for endurance.
And so, um, after doing a few more, I think it would be fun to kind of develop what I've put off because like training last year, I didn't do any speed work.
Um, it was all endurance.
It was basically like doing an ultra marathon every weekend and then recovering.
I feel like I'm too young to be saying I used to be that fast.
I should be able to go fast, but it's kind of like you pick your battle.
Do you want to be fast or do you want to go far?
Some people can do both.
But I think with my body, it's kind of like you choose.
I mean, there's like fast twitch and slow twitch.
And if you develop your slow twitch, then yeah.
So like, I think it's very empowering to at least like, most of my running is nine, 10 minute miles.
That's pretty...
Like, I mean, that's a chill.
I mean, I'm not, I can talk, everything, but still, like, I've been doing that pace so much that it's really hard to do seven and eights anymore, and it'd be nice to feel that again by doing less.