Robert Bigelow, billionaire UFO researcher and founder of Bigelow Aerospace, traces his obsession to 1947 when his grandparents saw a mysterious object near Las Vegas—mirroring reports from others in the area. He dismisses childhood visions of monk-like figures as prescient until later research, including the AA2292 pilots’ 2021 sighting of an unexplained, radar-visible craft at 37,000 feet and the suppressed 1997 Phoenix Lights, fuels his belief in advanced extraterrestrial technology. Bigelow’s expandable space habitats, like the B330, showcase his engineering expertise, while his skepticism of psychic claims clashes with Joe Rogan’s demand for verifiable proof—yet both acknowledge anomalies in consciousness studies and UFO materials, from Roswell’s alleged "small bodies" to Nixon’s disputed extraterrestrial remains. The debate leaves open whether humanity’s rapid evolution or hidden cosmic forces explain our unique intelligence, questioning the boundaries of science itself. [Automatically generated summary]
Back when I was about three years old, which would be about 1947, Actually, in May of that year, my grandparents had a very close encounter that was dramatic.
They were taking an evening drive in the late afternoon up into the mountains and coming on back down to Las Vegas.
And they saw what appeared to be at first an airplane on fire.
And the object became closer and closer to them and they pulled off to the side of the road.
And at one point then it filled up the windshield and they thought they were going to die.
And at the last second it shot off and disappeared.
And I learned of this story when I was probably Ten years old, because I was three at the time, and my mother had told me this story.
So I approached my grandfather, and he wouldn't talk about it.
Now, after all these years, like seven years have gone by, because I was intrigued with it.
And so I went to my grandmother, and she only would say a few words, but she wouldn't talk.
So I got the story from my mom, and they...
My grandfather had to sit on the side of the road there in the car for a while to recompose himself because they thought they were going to die.
And then he finally was able to drive back to Las Vegas.
47 was a time there was a lot of UFO activity being observed worldwide.
And the speculation is that this had to do with the nuclear bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all the tests that United States had done and Russia had done and that there was a lot of interest.
Well, actually Russia hadn't dropped any bombs by that time, right?
Well, years later, when I began to start my process as a researcher and as a student in the subject and began to talk with people who were Who made it their business to be experts in abductions.
And the more I got into the field and sat writing out questions for the researcher, for the therapist who would be asking the questions, and I'd be sitting there watching the process.
And just over time, I thought, well, you know, maybe there was something more to it.
But I'm better off not knowing anything, so I'll just block it off and forget about it.
The abduction phenomena was very proliferate in the population, it seemed like.
Even we did a survey called the Roper Poll.
And we repeated it three times so that the margin of error was really reduced to like one, one and a half percent.
And abduction researchers came up with the ten questions.
And so we distributed that and the conclusion was a fairly A relatively sizable percentage of the population had some kind of experiences according to them, according to the researchers, and according to the poll.
I am not qualified to speak to the accuracy of whether the questions were that relevant to the conclusions or not, but that's what they said.
And I had, in my own research, found people that I put them through a regression.
Not personally, but I found a hypnotherapist that could do that.
And I found a number of people just here, there, scattered around.
Maybe somebody in my own staff.
And they would come up with these stories and these events.
One of the criticisms of John Mack and hypnotic regression in general is that the idea that you can put a memory into someone's head.
That you could suggest things and you could create false memories.
And this was something that I've read in the criticism of his work.
That this style of hypnotic regression and bringing up these very specific scenarios to a bunch of different people, you can sort of help create, especially in people that are easily influenced or people that are open to suggestion, you could put these false memories in their head.
And so, you know, especially when you're dealing with something as fantastic, As a UFO or alien abduction or visitation or something like that.
There's also something called screen memory, but dealing with the first power suggestion.
That's absolutely true.
But my experience was with different hypnotherapists, they went out of their way.
In fact, if they did make a suggestion, it was just the opposite.
They might say, okay, you're on board this craft.
You know, where's the lighting coming from?
Is it coming from the corner of the room that you're in?
Well, there were no corners.
They'd be corrected right away by the person being...
So they went just the opposite direction on purpose to make suggestions to maybe coax the person to come that direction and they wouldn't do it.
The person wouldn't do it.
Now screen memory is different supposedly if somebody has a very close encounter With supposedly somebody that's ET, you leave that the memory turns out to be entirely different and that's put into you consciously and you recall something entirely different than what actually happened.
Maybe you saw two deer on the road or something of that sort or maybe there were owls or whatever.
What's crazy to me is if you go back to Betty and Barney Hill, if you go to Travis Walton, if you go to a lot of these abduction experiences, people that did not know each other, and particularly we're talking about before social media, before any of this stuff, they have very similar stories.
There was no archetype that you would sort of model You know your memories after I would wonder like if I ever did hypnotic regression today I would I would be very skeptical of my own memories Because I've heard so many stories right of these spaceship encounters I've talked to people like Travis Walton I've talked to people like Bob Lazar I've talked to these people that have had these experiences with these things I would want I would think that my
memory is Might be tainted by my expectations.
But you can't say that about Betty and Barney Hill.
These people, there was no stories like that before then.
This is not some pop culture thing that they were latching onto.
And even the way they described these creatures, the similarities between their descriptions and Travis Walton's descriptions, you know, 20 plus years later, it's very eerie.
And so he was flying over Mount Shasta or somewhere in Washington there.
And saw these objects, nine objects, kind of skipping along in formation.
And he, being a professional pilot, was able to estimate their speed, calculate that.
They were traveling way too fast for conventional aircraft.
And the shape that he described was, I've always thought of them a little bit of a manta ray shape without the tail, kind of a little bit of a curved boomerang kind of shape to the craft.
And that got an awful lot of attention because he was a very credible fellow, as were other people that later revealed their own sightings, military backgrounds, people that had major rank or captain rank.
So they had stories you would listen to about their experiences because they were professional observers in the military.
And actually, while we were out eating dinner last night, Dan Crenshaw sent me a text, and I shared it with everybody at the table, and it's from American Airlines pilots that saw some spectacular sighting over the last couple of days, and they're trying to figure out what the hell these people saw, but something that sped by them at some insane rates of speed, and there's a recording of them discussing it.
Well, it was a conventional commercial aircraft go 400 plus miles an hour.
American Airlines pilot reports seeing UFO. An American Airlines pilot reported seeing a long cylindrical object flying right over the top of the plane as he was flying.
Sunday's American Airlines flight AA2292 was operating from Cincinnati to Phoenix using an Airbus A320 aircraft over the northeast portion of New Mexico at 37,000 feet during what was otherwise a routine flight.
One of the pilots contacted air traffic control at Albuquerque Center.
He said, do you have any targets up here?
We just had something go right over the top of us.
I hate to say this, but it looked like a long cylindrical object that almost looked like a cruise missile type of thing moving really fast right over the top of us.
Yeah, I mean, but it's just, yeah, there's a lot of those.
That's the problem.
There's a lot of these.
And there's video of them, like the one, what is it, the one that's on the East Coast that's moving over the surface of the water at insane rates of speed.
And you see it.
Also, no heat signature, no obvious method of propulsion.
And doesn't exhibit...
Because that one was done, I believe it was infrared, the camera.
So you should have been able to see some exhaust or some heat signature that was showing how it was being propelled at that insane rate of speed.
And they weren't just lights because that craft started from northern Arizona, some say maybe Clark County, Nevada area, and proceeded down south toward Phoenix.
In the twilight of the evening where thousands of people saw structure.
It wasn't just lights.
It wasn't just, could it be confused with flares, aircraft dropping flares, and no such things had occurred anyway at that time of that day.
And so people saw structure, and the structure was estimated, what, a quarter mile maybe from tip to tip, boomerang kind of shape, kind of craft.
And yet, that should have been a really big deal, news-wise.
Right over a major city, so many observers, but it wasn't.
With your understanding of the way the government sort of processes this kind of information, that it's not...
It's not available to everybody.
And the information in terms of what these things are, what they aren't, whether or not they're some sort of top secret aircraft that the government is working on, or whatever it is.
Unless they're making press conferences about these things, they don't necessarily want to broadcast what it is.
And they certainly don't want to broadcast it if it's not available.
Do you think that they contacted the governor and informed him that he needed to make a mockery of this?
I mean, it was going all across the United States.
People were talking about it.
And then there was all sorts of...
Sort of semi-reasonable explanations about dropping flares.
The thing about the dropping flares, though, were that they hovered in the sky for a long time.
Like, it didn't make any sense.
Are they defying gravity?
Because there's video footage of it from multiple sources, home footage where people are filming these things, where there's these red lights that are just hovering in the sky.
But the red lights coincided with these triangular-shaped vehicles or boomerang-shaped vehicles that other people were seeing.
The thing about even today, you know, with cameras and Most cell phone cameras aren't capable of seeing things at a zoom.
With the exception of the Samsung Galaxy series, the new ones, they actually have a setting where you can take photographs of the moon because they have some pretty spectacular zoom capabilities.
It's pretty interesting stuff.
If you got one of those and you saw something in the sky, maybe you could zoom in on it and get a good shot of it.
But you're talking about things traveling at insane rates of speed.
Now there was a story quite recently of a pilot in a fighter jet that took a photograph of some similar shaped object, some triangular shaped object and apparently it was a very clear image.
It was a very clear image and there was some speculation about people releasing this and that they were going to release it and there was hesitation about releasing it.
Debrief Media has learned the leak of an unclassified photo said to have been widely distributed in the intelligence community, which purportedly shows what the DOD has characterized as unidentified aerial phenomenon.
I don't know if that's...
Look, obviously I'm just talking out of my ass, but what I had heard was that that was not the image in question, that there was a much, much clearer image in question that was pretty stunning, that they were debating on whether or not to release.
Because once the New York Times in 2017 published that front page article that showed some of those images that had been captured from the video cameras and the fighter jets experiences and talked about Commander David Fravor's experience with the Tic Tac UFO off the coast of San Diego...
That sort of released a lot of pressure on the concept of if you discuss these things, you're a foolish person.
For a long time, and I'm sure you must have experienced this because you've been in the game for a long time.
Discussing UFOs in 1970 or in 1980, people would look at you like you're probably crazy or something, right?
I had a little plan I was following that I had put together when I was a kid, and I was on a mission to be in business, to acquire resources so that I could someday have fun chasing this stuff.
Well, we call it a B330. What we have on our plant right now is engineering units, which are flight units, as far as hull and bulkheads are concerned, and longerons.
And so we had to shut down because of the COVID, but we have very advanced structures.
Yeah, so your dream in a lot of ways of getting involved in aerospace and in space travel, like you're, this is real, like you're a guy who actually has contracts with You know, big government.
In fact, nothing about the origination was original with me because I became incredulous about what NASA had done in the early 90s with something called the Transhab.
And it was a vehicle to take people to Mars.
And Congress cut the funding for that.
And, oh my God, how could they do such a thing?
Because it was very apparent, apparent that that craft was really cool for a lot of reasons.
And so I started the company, started putting money in it, and started going after that.
And then after about three years acquired a license, exclusive license, to use their patent just for the enclosure.
No book of instructions came with it.
There wasn't a manual saying, here's how you do this.
And so we started from scratch.
And we had no assistance from NASA whatsoever.
In arranging the architectures and engineering.
And then through a process of trial and error and testing and testing and testing.
Destructive testing, long duration leak tests.
Destructive because you had to try to quantify the strength of Of the materials.
And we were using factors much more demanding than the factors for metallics.
Factors of four, instead of metallics maybe one and a quarter or something.
And we finally engineered envelopes that were...
Very durable.
Ballistically, we did a lot of what's called hypervelocity impacts tests where you shoot a particle at about seven kilometers a second, six to seven, depending on the type of gas gun you're using, and seeing how well the structure can defend against something going that fast.
Actually, the defense on something going fast is easier than a particle going slower, like a bullet, for example.
There could be things on the hull that are in the way, because you use the hull as an attaching surface, and so that volume is very useful.
And so assuming you've located it now, and it depends on the size of the particle.
If it actually was significantly large, it'd blow off whatever was attached to the hole, maybe just put another hole right through whatever was attached.
So it'd be easier to find the hole.
That's the good news.
Bad news, the gas is, you know, your gas is escaping a lot faster.
So you do have some time though in a large volume for that gas to totally escape.
So then you have to make a judgment as to do you have time to create the patch?
And it's actually a fairly simple process because anything you put there wants to stick to the wall, right?
But depending on a basketball size something, there's not an explosion.
It doesn't go boom like a balloon.
It just loses gas.
You know, your air.
And so you'd probably have time to go to the airlock unless you were on the potty or something.
You'll have to get that story from him, but it's worth listening to.
So many people have.
So anyway, that's how I started in that, and I fell in love with the concept of expandable systems, launching something with a finite Fairing diameter and length and being able to triple the size of that volume once it's ejected and it's launched, you know, and the fairing opens up and now you start to expand and inflate and, wow, all that you can do with that volume is really cool.
So with you being involved in this and creating these habitats and your long-standing obsession with UFOs and potential alien life, getting involved with NASA must have been pretty exciting.
You're like, well, maybe I'm going to learn something now.
Well, as I could speak to, you know, just the general science population was much more reticent to talk about UFOs 30 years ago, I think, than today.
There's been so much more exposure.
media so um because you have regular television program now on aliens et's ancient aliens whatever doesn't matter it's all over the place compared to 25 years ago so it's a different kind of world
but um the thing about the ufo et subject as you continue to do research and and work in that whole community is um a kind of a strange frustration about acquiring a little bit of a taste of understanding about the possibilities of locomotion and
of movement, and where we are.
We're still working with fire engines.
And thank God for people like Elon and Jeff Bezos.
I really respect those guys, including Elon's secret weapon, Gwen, you know, his president.
The country is so lucky to have them.
But the dynamicism of UFOs and ETs is so overwhelming as to what that world is like.
And if it's all true, or even some of it true, it's more than just a holy cow.
It's, oh my God.
So it's like night and day comparison.
And here we are still in 2021 and still waiting to get back to the moon.
Well, I think when we were talking earlier about the New York Times article, I think that was a real pivotal moment in the culture's acceptance of the concept of these things.
Because when you see something printed on the front page of the New York Times, when you see people like Commander Fravor, very well respected, all...
Full respect.
No one thinks that guy's a kook.
You read about his experiences and you go, okay, there's something to this.
But the preponderance of evidence had gotten to the point where there was enough out there where you could say, listen, this is not something to be mocked anymore.
When you have Commander Faber, and we hired Doug, one of the pilots there.
We learned about that in 2008. The event happened in 2004. So you have really credible people seeing something that's totally anomalous and has no business doing what it's doing.
Not only that, things that have been tracked by instrumentation, things that have gone from 80,000 feet above sea level to one foot in less than a second, and then traveled to the agreed-upon destination where the plane was going to go later.
They knew where they were traveling to.
It was able to travel at an insane rate of speed that's not even...
It doesn't make any sense with any technology that we've ever even theorized.
I mean, that's not even outside of what makes sense.
If you followed the technology and the technological improvements over the last 15, 20 years and you explored the possibility of what could be done in the next 100 or 1,000 or 100,000 years, I'd go, yeah, that's not even crazy.
Micro-macro-PK? Just manipulating material objects, whether they're electrons or a bottle cap.
Let's say you've got a screen computer, and it's hooked up to a random event generator, which is flipping a coin many, many hundreds of thousands of times a second, and it's establishing a firm, even line, this 50-50 across your screen.
And then there's another line.
Coming along.
And your challenge is to have the two lines deviate.
So you're, and I don't know, it's been so many years since I was in the pair lab with Bob John and Brenda Dunn.
I forget the exact details on this, but the point was, there was a line that was created, a second line that you were to think about and try to deviate that line.
And you should not be able to do that at all.
So they had maybe a one flat line on the screen, and then you had this random event generator that should be 50-50 right alongside that same line.
But it's not.
You're causing it to go up or you're causing it to go down.
And they had a lot of people successful on this.
Many, many, many.
And they did just a huge number of trials that were successful.
So that's in the smallest context.
You had that Russian woman, Kalignia, something like that was her name, that worked with objects in a bell jar.
And she would be able to manipulate them, cause them to spin, cause them to lift.
So the point really is, if you were to make it a job to accumulate this kind of information from as many sources as possible, you'd really have a large volume of stuff and then you'd have a lot of material to look at and analyze, not just one case.
I think it's easy to look at one case and have doubts because it is just one.
Do you think that things like psychic powers or an understanding of other people's thoughts and ideas, these are maybe possibly emerging aspects of human beings?
Like as a human evolves, as we go from being a tree-dwelling primate To being what we are today, where people are intuitive and we can sort of read social cues and we understand each other and we can talk and communicate using sounds and noises that as the human animal evolves, they'll eventually develop some sort of a psychic power.
No, it's not, but it's a different aspect of being a human being.
Now, we all know that some people are more intuitive than others.
Some people are more sensitive than others.
Some people are better at understanding.
Some people are really good at picking out liars.
Some people are really good at picking out talent.
They understand people better, right?
As the human animal evolves, We could only surmise that those types of skills and those types of qualities that a human being can possess could possibly get better.
If you get two very intuitive people, they have a child and the child is even more intuitive than them.
And that some aspects, unprovable, unmeasurable aspects of psychic power could be something that's emerging out of the human animal.
I think what may more likely would happen, because we're shifting now to taking normal human physiology, which is a separate situation from being able to perform things that Are more unique than just being creative.
So I think that you might have small circuitry and small things that are added to the human brain to enhance its capabilities.
And that's much more likely in terms of human evolution than that future generations are going to become enormously psychic and enormously cause and effect using consciousness.
So whether it's clairvoyance or telepathy or psychometry, micro, macro, PK, remote viewing, the whole basket, those are all real and they're all world-class performers in every one of those things.
Remote viewing is a great example of this because we know for 20 years the CIA and the Army had programs in this and so did the Russians.
Very accurate and give me information that, to this day, I don't know if it's true or not because it was underground information that I don't even know.
There would probably be at a point in time it was classified for a long time.
And then it became more public eventually as a program aged and so forth, as things usually do.
To be 100%, you could acquire by having more than one viewer.
Have the same target.
You increases the likelihood of the accuracy of the information.
100% is a lot to ask for.
Because you're getting a drawing at the same time you're getting conversation.
And sometimes the drawings revealed more than the conversations did.
So the remote viewer would also be in a position as an experiencer.
So if his or her target was at a certain location and the person was eating an orange, for example, A remote viewer could almost taste it, could almost hear the gravel that the person was walking on, feel it under their shoes that they're walking.
So they were able to figure out where people were and they were able to get a sort of an understanding of what they were doing and how they were doing it and what their surroundings look like.
Well, I mean, you know, supposedly, aren't there stories even about Christopher Columbus crew and so forth seeing things going back for centuries, things coming in and out of the water?
Well, that was part of the Tic Tac, the Commander David Fravor's encounter, that there was something below the surface of the water that was creating a wake, almost like rocks.
Yeah, it was churning.
It was a very large thing and that it went under as they approached and the Tic Tac craft faced them.
And that, you know, they don't know to this day what that thing was that was under the surface, but that's what led them to go and investigate in the first place.
And as they were going towards it, that's when they realized that there's this thing like, you know, roughly the size of this room.
Yeah, well in that carrier group was a ship or two that was bristling with electronic equipment.
And it's the first thing that sensed something out there.
And that's when my understanding was, and I'm going back a long time now, was that that's when they were launched to go check it out.
Because what was out there shouldn't be out there and behaving the way it was behaving according to all the electronics on this ship that was part of the battle group.
I think sometimes better left alone, if you know they're really behaving fantastically, and they're not the Russians or Chinese or whatever, Go have a sandwich.
It's a very strange situation to be in, to be a fighter pilot with the most sophisticated military equipment and to encounter something that is beyond the scope of even imagination of what's possible.
And so, Bob Lazar, George Knapp, myself, and I think Gene Huff, who is Bob's friend, we all go out there.
Well, unbeknownst to me, Bob has a Mylar balloon, which really bounces their radar signature a lot for its size, and a bottle of gas.
Helium.
So we find our way back out in the desert, out there.
I'm thinking we're on a UFO watch, which is always fun.
Sometimes the best thing is the food you take along, right?
And you're out there under the stars, and it's nice, and you have a good time just watching.
But there's a rustle of things going on here, and next thing I know, there's a balloon, this mylar balloon's inflated, And there's a slight breeze, and Bob lets it go.
And we're on the opposite side of the mountain range from supposedly S4. And he wants to go that way.
Thank God the wind was going in the opposite direction.
It was traveling north instead of south.
And it went the wrong way.
So I'm thinking, my life's just passed before my eyes.
But I wasn't aware of a lot until much, until, I don't think at that time I was aware of him taking people out on, you know, Wednesday nights to go see something out there.
I kind of missed out on that or whatever.
And I don't think this was anything connected to that.
Obviously, you're a person that has a deep fascination with UFOs.
Now, here you are talking to this guy who's clearly a genius, brilliant guy, Bob Lazar, and he's telling you this fucking banana story.
He's out there back-engineering spacecrafts that came from another land that are using this element 115, this stuff that's just a theoretical element that wasn't even proven by Particle Collider until, what, 2013?
I wanted to reserve judgment until I knew a lot more.
And the more he talked, the more interesting it became.
The more research that George did, things that he uncovered, it became more interesting.
And And so, as I said a while back, I think George was doing an interview with me, and I said, I wouldn't bet against Bob's, the truth of the majority of everything that Bob has said.
I wouldn't bet against it.
Could they be errors and omissions for different reasons?
Yeah, sure they could.
But I would tend to say Bob is legitimate.
And, you know, there's certain aspects of things that are parts of stories that you wonder, well, how could this happen and so forth?
But I think if you take all of the collective information and the work that George Knapp has done to validate things, it's awfully damn impressive.
But what was it like for you to be this guy who's had this deep fascination with flying saucers?
And here you are, let me tell you my experience with Bob.
Doing this podcast with Bob, I wanted one of two things.
I wanted to go, oh this guy's full of shit.
Or I wanted, whoa, this guy's It seems like he's not full of shit.
I think he's telling the truth.
I think this guy really did encounter these aircrafts and really did work on these spaceships, whatever they are.
That's where I'm at right now.
My experience with him, my communication with him, he didn't seem like he's full of shit at all.
He's clearly a brilliant guy.
His story has not changed at all over the 30 plus years that he's been saying it.
It's a crazy story.
But when you are a person like yourself, you saw me even more than I, who is obsessed with this subject, the possibility of alien life that's visited this earth, and maybe even left crafts behind, and maybe these crafts are in the possession of some secret government agencies that are trying to Observe them and back-engineer them.
What is it like to talk to this guy?
Because this guy has seen the thing you're looking for.
You're searching and all of your wondering and staring out into the heavens.
And here's a guy that has actually touched it.
Actually worked on it.
Been inside one.
Tried to figure out how they work.
Can't do it.
Doesn't understand it.
He's talking to these people.
Everything's compartmentalized.
You got the metallurgist people that are working on what kind of alloy this thing is made of.
You got him, who's a part of the people that are trying to understand the propulsion system.
And then you've got people that are giving you this information that, like, maybe they have been here forever.
Maybe this is a part of an archaeological dig.
Maybe they've been trying to study these things for decades with no advancement at all.
So we came across or myself and a couple other people came across folks who could collaborate some of the things going on out there.
Such as silent craft actually lifting off at nighttime.
Not looking as though the control was very good.
But actually lifting off, maneuvering like a real small trial kind of thing.
And that fellow observed it from a distance where he wasn't supposed to be.
George has come up with collaboration, I think, from two or three other sources also, besides what Bob said, about certain aspects of things out there.
It's just that Bob's story is so much more in-depth, so much more detailed, like that book, That he talked about years ago, coming across.
Well, there was a book, as I remember, there was some kind of a book that Bob was allowed to look through, or he actually seized the opportunity to do it when he was in a room where the book was, but I think that was by design.
And it was some kind of a holographic book that as you opened up the pages, whatever the stories were became a hologram.
That's my recollection of a conversation that's decades old now.
So, you know, if I got it wrong, fire me.
You know, you'll have to talk to Bob about that, would you?
Or talk to George.
Because I remember something like that.
I mean, that was like, wow!
What an amazing way to portray information in some kind of a book and actually have holographic images coming forth out of the, you know, I don't know.
It just was...
So that I haven't ever heard of being repeated any place in terms of something else like that happening.
And so much that happened to Bob, it was so unique.
There was also some very strange summary of what they understand or what they believe to be true about the origins of human beings.
And that they believed that what these visitations were about was that human beings are the product of accelerated evolution.
And that these species from wherever had been coming here and doing genetic experiments with primates and created human beings.
Which is the ultimate, like, who knows, like, wow, that's fun to think about, but...
We were talking about this last night, like how bizarre humans are, that out of all these things on Earth, we're the only ones with shoes.
Out of all these things, we're the only ones that have to wear clothes, we're the only ones that jump into metal boxes with rubber tires and roll around these hard surfaces that we created, or fly in planes, or send video through your phone to other people that are on the other side of the continent.
We're weird.
We're real weird.
We're way weirder than anything else that exists.
And if we are really a product of some sort of accelerated process like that, this is how they get the party started on these planets.
They find semi-intelligent, curious animals that are using tools or using, you know, opposable thumbs.
So getting back to the Bob Lazar thing, when you first got to know him and you first were considering this story and how crazy it was, what was it like to meet a guy who, at least by his own accounts, had encountered this thing that you were seeking?
And so it gives you an awful lot to think about and to try to position as to how can you measure future information you might get against that story.
How can you verify different kinds of things?
And so I've heard a lot more silly things, I think, than what Bob was talking about.
It didn't seem all that ridiculous.
And then the more you get to talk to him, the more you get to know him, and people like George, who's an investigative journalist, it gets more and more, wow.
It's also a good question as to are those things imperative for life?
When we think of ego, when we think of our mating instincts and all the various pleasant and unpleasant aspects of being a human being, how many of them are impediments to growth and progress?
What is growth and progress, right?
What are we trying to achieve?
Mastery of the elements and of life.
Are we trying to keep peace?
Are we trying to make things better but stay human?
Like, what are we trying to do?
Because when we talk about artificial life, It's just artificial in terms of the fact that another life form has created it.
And it is about this super genius guy who develops these artificially intelligent humanoids.
And it's...
There's a lot of suspension of disbelief when you're watching a science fiction movie that takes place in modern era that has robots that look exactly like people and have emotions and thoughts and stuff.
But it makes you wonder, how far away are we from something like that?
Some super intelligent thing that we create ourselves, and then it can create other super intelligent things.
Are we 50 years?
Are we 100 years?
When is that going to happen?
Or are we going to become some sort of symbiotic creation?
Are we going to merge with technology instead of create some sort of technological being?
Are we going to become one?
And that's one of the things that I've always been very curious about when it comes to these aliens.
Iconic aliens that people experience, they always seem like what we will look like in the future.
If you look at a chimpanzee or a gorilla, they're much more muscular than human beings, they're much stronger, they're covered in hair, they have smaller heads.
And then our heads are bigger, our bodies are smaller, we're weaker and softer.
And then if you continue to move forward and we advance and evolve and eliminate a lot of the problems that human beings experience, whether it's because of war or crime or all these different things that trip us up as a society and as a culture, these things are all connected to tribalism and biology and emotions and the desire to sexually procreate.
If they eliminate all of those things with technology over time, and you get these genital-less aliens that have these enormous heads and that don't communicate with mouth noises anymore, they communicate with thoughts, and they don't have the need for physical strength anymore, so their bodies are these tiny childlike things, but they have godlike powers.
So is there a prerequisite And all of that for the reptilian brainstem to be eliminated.
Is there the potential for either inanimate objects or combination biological material android type of objects to have consciousness?
And what is it to be human in the first place?
Well, if you have bred out or artificially created Something that is close to whatever perfect might be, as opposed to a human being that's very imperfect.
A human being has all kinds of imperfections, all kinds of emotional imperfections and capabilities that go from here to here.
And so that is what it's like to be a human being.
We are very imperfect.
And so we're in a class by ourselves.
Now you introduce something else.
Maybe our consciousness is unique to being a human being.
And it's not possible to actually evolve consciousness in an artificial mechanism.
So, consciousness and thought are two different kinds of things, like mind and brain are two different kinds of things.
So consciousness, to me, is a force.
Like we just saw, colignia, whether you think it's real or not, but there are many other demonstrations of being able to use consciousness, attention, as a force upon something.
To either gather information you shouldn't be gathering from remote viewing, or moving an object, you know, it's a different kind of force.
Thought is a creative mechanism.
And thought can come to promoting the force.
In other words, to channel the conscious effort.
I don't mean to be getting off the topic, but I think...
All of the human elements that we talked about, whether they're emotions or the desire to procreate sexually or jealousy and rage and territorial behavior, tribalism, all the awful and great things about human beings' ego.
All those things lead people to want to do things, to get recognized, to get attention.
And they also want to get recognized for their achievements.
And they also want to push things past the boundaries that have been established by other people that are in the same business or the same creative venture as them.
Whether it's artificial intelligence or whether it's art or creativity or music or anything that people do.
They're always piggybacking on the work of the people that came before them.
It's part of being a person.
With everything.
With architecture.
With technology.
Everything is piggybacking on the work before it.
And these things are motivated by these very imperfect aspects of being a person.
By ego.
By the desire to be loved.
By all these...
And even by the positive things.
By curiosity.
By creativity.
All these...
Soup of influences are all making people advance technology and innovate.
That, if you just extrapolate, if you just look at what technology is, and if you look at what we're doing.
If you were from another planet and you had no idea about human culture, you had no idea, and you had no...
No familiarity to the human form and to what our life is like down here.
And you looked at us.
You would say, well, what is this species doing?
What are they doing?
Well, I'll tell you what they're doing.
They're making stuff.
And they're making better stuff every year.
That's what the species does.
What do bees do?
They make beehives.
They make honey.
But they do the same shit every year.
Human beings don't.
They need a new goddamn phone every year.
The TVs get bigger.
The cars get faster.
Everything they do is better.
The computers have more terabytes of hard drive.
Their processors work quicker.
The video cards are better.
Everything's better.
No one's settling for less good.
Everybody wants better and they want better constantly.
And they want to show their friends.
It's part of being attractive.
Look, look at Johnny.
He's got the new car.
He's got the new phone.
She's got the new watch.
You've got the new Oculus Rift headsets.
You got this and that.
We make technology.
It's our primary thing.
We work, we get ourselves together like human batteries, and we generate income and revenue, and we're all obsessed with making or buying better stuff.
That's what we do.
Now, what does that mean, ultimately?
Well, it means technology.
Technology is the pinnacle of human achievement.
It's the stuff that puts us into space.
It's the stuff that allows us to videotape things.
It's stuff that allows us to essentially capture time.
You can capture time on a phone and play it back to people.
This is when I showed Jeremy this thing and we both laughed.
It's gonna keep getting better and better and better.
Well, where does that lead to?
It leads to some sort of singularity.
It leads to some sort of paradigm-shifting invention where all of these technologies piggyback onto themselves until we reach some sort of pinnacle of human achievement.
And I think that's probably going to be some kind of artificial life or some sort of a symbiotic relationship I don't think it's enough, and I don't think it's altogether better.
I don't think it's altogether better either, but I think it's going that way.
Well, and who knows in 50 years or 150 years, whatever.
Okay.
I think you've just described an infrastructure for a serious problem coming.
Yeah.
What if you were to create a graph and on the graph were just two things, two lines, and you were tracking over the last 150 years spiritual maturity among the species.
The 20th century was the worst annihilation of people, 60 million people ever, in terms of numbers.
Wars, right?
What if you were to track in that same graph the progress of technology?
Well, you'd have one vertical line, the technological line, in the 20th century and now.
And it would probably be segmented, which I mean it's jumping.
It's going faster than arithmetic progression or any normal progression.
So if you don't have a grounding, though, in a solid spiritual philosophy in a species like us, like humans, then you're rolling the dice on handing A species that might be immature spiritually.
Some very advanced, dangerous stuff that can be used as weaponry or just misused and abused in other kinds of ways.
And maybe the species thinks it knows it all, and it's cavalier, it's careless about the disposition of the technologies.
But more than likely, it's hostile, because things tend to be weaponized.
So you wind up with a species that's more like the Klingons than you want.
So you wouldn't want to be on some other planet and having these discover you, right?
So I think those two lines are really important to try to harmonize.
The problem is, there's no intersection in sight.
In our lifetimes and other lifetimes, there's no intersections in sight.
We haven't even begun to create a homogeneity of spirituality in the human species compared to the proliferation of technologies.
So that incongruity can be a really serious problem someday.
I mean, if we continue to concentrate only on things and on improving technology, but not improving the way we communicate with each other and love each other.
As you've said, and everybody kind of is attracted to that question.
The other is, do aspects of your consciousness survive your bodily death?
So, is there a difference between mind and brain?
So, is brain the generator and mind is a reservoir and actually more causal than the brain is, in a sense?
So, in theory, the question relates to, gosh, you are doing away with the brain if the container decomposes and dies and is permanently offline.
Are there any aspects of your mind that continues?
Does your consciousness continue?
That is a question that has been attempted to answer since maybe the dawn of man.
A loved one has just died.
Is there any way to recapture that?
Any way at all?
Well, no.
It's written off.
It's gone.
And that is just a relevant question today as ever because you have a lot of...
Desparate kinds of folks' beliefs, and you have religions that are against that notion altogether, and so you have a huge amount of differences in people's philosophy, driven by religious beliefs or just the way they've arrived at their own conclusions or whatever.
So you have to be respectful of all these different kinds of beliefs and try to yet approach that subject in a way that is somehow determinable.
Try to arrive at something that maybe is not 100%, but can you find answers in different ways that drive you into the high levels, 80, 85, 90, 95%, that you're leaning towards that?
That would be really good news if you could legitimately do that for yourself and know that you have something else in addition to this.
Yeah, and the cynical people would always say, well, they're just trying to promise you that to get you to behave in this life, but there's really no evidence whatsoever that anything happens once you die.
But then you have people that have had near-death experiences, and those are the weird ones, because they've had these near-death experiences, and they almost always come back saying it's going to be okay.
They almost always come back going, there's something more to this.
And we don't know what those near-death experiences are.
We know that certain aspects of them can be recreated with psychedelic drugs.
And we do know that the brain produces psychedelic drugs.
Particularly DMT. And people that have had experiences on psychedelics have had these moments.
He famously was on CNN once, and I watched this interview where he was talking about how he had a high-dose LSD experience once.
He never worried about death ever again.
And he was talking about it, and the CNN anchor was clearly a little rattled.
Because I believe what they were talking about was his...
Green home.
He had this home that operated off the grid and he had it all set up so it was really well insulated and solar powered and all this stuff so that he could not have a heavy carbon footprint.
So they're talking about this and along the line they get to talking about his LSD experience and death.
It was pretty trippy to see him say that and to see them going, oh.
But many people that have had intense psychedelic experiences have had this thing happen to them where they believe they've gone to another dimension.
They've gone to this other place that seems more real.
From my own personal experiences, I've had these.
Where you go to these realms that seem more real than the realm that you're living in and you encounter something.
Whether this something is an imaginary or whether it's actually, you could put it on a scale and measure it.
I'm not sure if it matters because it's still a thing you experience.
Did you have, after these experiences, did you have any kind of evidence afterwards that you could draw a connection between what you saw in the visions and actually now what you discovered?
I mean, was there anything that popped up later on that connected the two?
That your ego and your desire to protect yourself from failing or from reality, that those things are ultimately very detrimental to your consciousness, very detrimental to the way you communicate with other people.
And that it's a battle, a constant battle to abandon these monkey instincts that we all have.
And that these things have protected us and gotten us to this stage, but they can ultimately trip you up as you try to sort of understand yourself better.
You know, you're just hitting on something in the literature of survival of consciousness, of which there's hundreds or thousands of books that you could actually access and people to talk to.
The message seems to be in the literature, abandonment of the ego is a very important thing to do.
It's a very important thing as you've passed over.
That's one of the things that happens, is to try to remove the ego and shove it aside.
It's the thing that makes you want to be successful.
It's the thing that makes you want to progress.
It's the thing that makes you want to accomplish things.
One of the keys to an actualized life is to Progress, move your motivation away from ego to the fascination in problem solving and acquiring skills and getting better at tasks.
Is that there's something interesting in it.
And especially if you're doing something that benefits other people.
When it benefits other people that you get better at these things because these other people get to enjoy these things on a higher level.
Then you get this cool feeling of actually...
It's benefiting people, actually helping people with your fascination with these things.
And the more you concentrate on the ego, the more it'll taint whatever progress you're making.
So back to the near-death experiences, so let's suppose that You just look at the ones that come along naturally.
Somebody has flatlined on an operating table, they've fallen through the ice, whatever.
There are so many near-death experiencers.
I've heard numbers that are ridiculous in the millions of people in this country, not just in the world.
And so there's a hell of a lot of smoke.
There must be an awful lot of heat somewhere in terms of the probability that this is real.
Because other explanations are really tough.
Now, you can have out-of-body experiences, and you can validate conversations in a room.
You should have no way of understanding where tools were taken from what drawers or anything like that, what people look like, because you're gone.
You're under anesthesia, right?
There's no way.
And yet, the literature is replete with stories, thousands of stories like that.
And same thing with near-death stories.
You know, huge volume of information.
Every example you can possibly imagine.
And so then you wonder, well, how can you correlate that?
How can you correlate anything to do with did the person have an experience, not just through the tunnel, but what they saw afterwards in that period of time after they exited the tunnel into wherever they were?
And how do we verify that what they actually saw was the other side?
To be ridiculed for a near-death experience is probably similar to being ridiculed for a UFO encounter or ridiculed for any other super spectacular thing that most people are never going to experience.
So when you have talked about this the ability to measure whether consciousness exists outside of life how can that be measured and what steps can be made to try to quantify and to try to validate whether or not this is a real thing You don't want to hear this I do want to hear this All right.
Yeah, you're launching less weight, so there you go.
But all kidding aside, yeah, psychic mediums are a really good legitimate source of getting alternate information that helps to collaborate things maybe that have happened other ways or information that's come maybe from a near-death experiencer, you know, for example.
But outside of psychic mediums, when you're talking about measuring whether or not consciousness exists outside of life, whether or not your consciousness somehow or another transcends your physical body.
But when you're trying to measure whether or not consciousness exists outside of life, just because someone's automatically writing, they could be receiving some signal from someone that's still alive.
If there is some sort of psychic communication, if there is a possibility of remote viewing and you can transmit information from person to person without words, and this is one of the ultimate goals of Neuralink.
Elon Musk actually said You're going to be able to talk without using words.
I mean, if human beings, if it's possible to do something along those lines, this could be a live person that's somehow or another projecting these thoughts and someone else is tuning into them in the same way you would tune into a radio signal.
See, we're talking right now in these weird terms, because I don't know if that stuff's real.
I could describe what I think would be wrong with these scenarios, but I don't know if any of this remote writing or automatic writing has been verified.
It just means that we haven't set up experiments ourselves to verify it ourselves and actually watching, implementing it under controlled conditions, double-blind conditions.
Right.
So what else do you have to resort to?
It's what's in the literature thoroughly digest and pros and cons and everything from a lot of sources and people who have engaged in this And maybe they have film.
Maybe they actually have film of the writing.
And you compare the handwriting, maybe it's different handwriting altogether.
Maybe it's in a different language completely.
In fact, there are stories, a lot of accounts of exactly that.
Well now, first of all, I have kind of recaptured this survival of consciousness inquiry that I was into in the 1980s and I have now formed an institute called BICS that started in June of last year.
But I want to get to this idea that you're trying to pursue of measuring consciousness or trying to figure out whether or not consciousness survives death.
So, you might be a producer or director of a television show for years, and you've got more stuff on film than you can imagine of different kinds of weird things happening that you have no explanation for any of that, and you've made a study of this for a long time.
You could be a good candidate.
You could be a detective.
And maybe you're solving murder cases by using psychic mediums.
Second place gets 300, third place gets 150 grand.
So if you have a semi-shitty near-death experience story, you get 150. It's an interesting way to do it, but I would hope there would be some better way to measure it.
You know the expression extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Yeah, but when they solve murder cases using mediums, if that has ever been real, and I've talked to some detectives that say that's all horseshit, because I did have a long discussion with someone who is, he's an investigative detective and he solves crimes, and he's like, there's no evidence that any psychics have ever given you any real information.
This is his personal opinion on cases that he's been involved in, and maybe he's wrong.
But this is just what he said.
He said, people are desperate.
They hire psychics.
But my point is, murder is real.
The difference is, you're convicting someone for something that absolutely happened.
When you're talking about trying to figure out whether or not there's an afterlife based on the kind of evidence that would be used to convict someone of a murder, that doesn't necessarily work because we know for a fact that murder is real.
We know for a fact that human beings are real and that if you kill them, you're a murderer.
This is all fact.
We don't know whether or not there's an afterlife.
So to use the same...
Obligation or the same preponderance of evidence that would convict someone of a crime for something that you don't even know is real.
Put the seriousness of an event in terms of the harm it caused as being more legitimate than an event that actually produces information that you should have no way of acquiring.
But you've got to show me specifics if we're going to have this conversation.
You see what I'm saying?
Like, for you to be so convinced, you should have things that you could pull out of the top of your head right now and tell me specifically that this event was predicted by this person and this is how it happened and there was no way they could have known about it otherwise.
And therefore, if you argued with me and said, there has never been a UFC fight, I go, well, that's not true, because I could tell you specific dates, I can tell you what happened, what the result was, I can show you a videotape of it.
You don't have that same knowledge of these things, but you have the same conviction that I have when I'm talking about things that are hardcore facts, like a mixed martial arts event, Or, you know, whatever.
Fill in the blank with whatever the event you want it to be.
You have the same sort of conviction that these things are real, but you don't have the same kind of hardcore evidence.
Not only do you not have the same kind of hardcore evidence...
So, my wife passed February 19th, last year, and she was in and out of hospitals a lot for a long time.
I was kind of the nurse at home for a couple years.
And...
So toward the end, she was in the hospital about three days before.
She wanted to pass at home.
So the challenge was how to get her out of an area in the hospital that was basically a waiting area for people to go to die.
It was an area that that's where people were that weren't expected to leave.
Okay, alive.
And so there was a day there where my son and my granddaughter and I were playing a lot of loud music.
In the room for my wife.
And the medium said to me, and I'm recording this, and the medium said, thank you, your wife wants to thank you for all the music that was played for her before she passed, all the music.
Because I had recorded it, and we listened to the recording together after I had done the sitting, and my granddaughter says to me, Pop, don't you remember?
So what I would, I don't know if she would do it, but I think she probably would be very interested since it's you, and because you are a big figure, that And you're easy to learn about.
You'd go into this assuming, which she's a very, very honest person.
But you would have to go into this assuming that everything about you is so public, you can find out a lot of things.
Okay, well listen, I haven't experienced this before.
I try to keep an open mind.
If someone actually can do this, that's pretty spectacular.
But to my understanding, and I've spent a lot of time reading about these things and reading about skeptics and the James Randi challenge and all these different people that have tried to attempt to demonstrate psychic ability that no one has ever successfully done that.
Well, no, but what happened to the Joe of just a little while ago that says, yeah, there can be legitimate mediums, as opposed to saying, they're all fraud because I know a magician.
We've been talking for a long time, but I really want to talk to you about this.
What evidence do you think is the best evidence in terms of what physical evidence?
Is it just video?
Is it just photographs?
Or do you think there's physical evidence that either our government or some other government has somewhere that could show beyond a shadow of a doubt?
Because I know Jacques Vallée who was on the podcast before discussed that we were talking about specific metals that have been examined that these alloys that if they had been produced In mass, it would be billions and billions of dollars for these alloys.
And that this was, although not evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, seemed to indicate that because of the examination of these alloys, that this is not something that's mass produced in this country right now, or in any country right now.
That this is something that if it was done, it would cost an insane amount of money to create, but yet here it is.
Yeah, so people have pieces of things that are like that, that have been, I assume they've gone through electron microscope for a look-see, but they are very unique in how thin they are,
how many layers of material they have, and the view The opinions are that we can't make them.
Other than Bob Lazar's experiences, which he has, of course, the most spectacular experience.
I actually haven't been there at S4. You know, I wish there was a way we could convince whoever is in charge of that to allow people to film this, to allow people to examine this, to bring in the scientific community, if it is a real thing.
But the other thing about the Lazar story was that Element 115. What are your thoughts on that?
This was the idea that there was some super spectacular element that was a new version of propulsion.
So instead of shooting something out of the back end, it was literally bending gravity.
I mean, I'm not saying about anything to do with...
Disparagingly with Bob Lazar at all.
I'm just talking about the element 115. I have no understanding of its properties and what it can do or not.
I don't have any information like I do on these other subjects, survival of consciousness.
I don't have any information about element 115. Did you talk to Bob about it?
Oh, no.
No, the conversations about it were somebody had taken his and he was I'm kind of regretful that he had let go of it in some way and he wanted to get it back.
You were talking earlier that really what ought to happen is there ought to be a major program Where you're gathering all the best scientists to analyze the hell out of all these materials that have been retrieved.
And so it's drug out every 10 years, looked at to see if there's anything that has improved in 10 years on the understanding of X, Y, and Z that makes sense or has something else shifted?
Has something else happened in the last 10 years that could make a difference on trying to understand the material?
Now, how do you know that this stuff is in corporate hands?
Is this just hearsay?
Is this the discussions you've had?
I would imagine because you're so open about your interests.
That in your conversations with other people, whether it's at NASA, there's got to be other folks that also have similar interests that come to you and want to talk to you about these things.
That corporations are involved because they recovered it or they acquired it and that if they were able to mass produce whatever these alloys are, whatever these particular properties of these metals are, there would be obviously some amazing commercial value for this stuff.
I mean, definitely love to drink and probably so fun to drink with.
Him and Nixon are talking and Nixon says, you want to see a UFO? And takes Jackie Gleason to wherever it was, Hangar 18 or wherever it was where they had this UFO and shows him.
And it apparently changed Jackie Gleason's life and he couldn't stop talking about it.
And what I had heard was that he had it recreated in his backyard.
And then when you take into account people like Commander David Fravor, who I've had the pleasure of sitting down talking to and listening to his explanation, and then when you realize that the way his vehicle, the vehicle that he observed, moved Mirrors what Bob Lazar talked about from 1990. Now we're talking, we're in this weird realm of like, huh.
So I'm a believer.
So if the government has it, I mean, shit, in the 1960s, when Nixon was president, and him and Jackie Gleason are partying, that's a credible story.
I can't find the thing about the backyard, because it just keeps bringing up his UFO house he had in New York, which is like a UFO-shaped house and a bunch of interesting cool shit inside of it.
On his arrival, armed guards took Gleason to a building in a remote location on the site.
There, Gleason, who harbored an intense interest in UFOs, saw the embalmed bodies of four alien beings two feet long with small bald heads and big ears.
He was told nothing about the circumstances of their recovery.
He swore his wife to secrecy, but after their divorce, Beverly freely discussed the story.
That bitch!
He swore to secrecy!
That's what happens when you divorce them!
In the mid-1980s, when ufologist Larry Bryant sued the US government to get it to reveal its UFO secrets, he tried without success to subpoena Gleason.
Holy shit.
So that's the thing in his house.
That's his backyard.
That's his UFO house.
So he built a house.
So that was what they were talking about.
It wasn't that he just built a UFO. He built a fucking house shaped like a UFO. Where is that?
I think there are enough different kinds of sources in the media about people seeing things.
I did an interview years ago with Safro Henderson and Stan Friedman and Kevin Randall went to her house in California Because her husband was Pappy Henderson.
And Pappy Henderson was one of the pilots that flew material, flew stuff out of Wright-Patt.
And she said, he said, they were in a grocery store one day, and the Enquirer had a big article.
Aliens revealed, so on and so forth.
And there's the checkout stand.
And she said he took the story seriously.
And after they checked out, he said, well, I guess I can tell you now.
and I believe that she said that he said to her there were bodies now this was part of the story that went with the whole Roswell crash was that there was a local mortuary that was told to make small coffins right and that people had said that they had seen these bodies and that the wreckage was flown in three in two separate planes To Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
And that if they really thought it was just a balloon, why would they fly it in two separate planes to Wright-Patterson?
I think what they're trying to tell us is this is what we know so far.
I think that's what they're trying to tell us.
I think they're as perplexed about dark matter and dark energy as we are, but they have a lot of information about background radiation, about the signals that seem to indicate...
A certain kind of steady state of elasticity, expansion and contraction that continues to go on and on with the orderly force Being whatever dark energy and dark matter is to maintain organization, to maintain harmony and everything.
So you reach maximum elasticity and then it starts to retract again.
To your density is maximum density and you do this all over.
Because the universe is so spectacular that the idea that there's some force that's created it doesn't make it any less spectacular.
It's so insane.
Just what you're looking at on a night sky, on a clear night sky, if you're in a place with no light pollution, is so insane.
The idea that there's some God force as well that makes all these things happen and creates all these things and there's actually like a good path and a bad path for at least sentient life forms and that there's some sort of ultimate goal for this matter coalescing.
The thought could be what we were talking about earlier, that this could be how this human animal creates, how this human animal innovates, and how it interacts with other animals and gives it motivation to create and innovate, and this is what creates this new form of life.
I've often said that I think that human beings might be some sort of biological caterpillar that gives birth to an electronic butterfly.
That we create something because of our desire for innovation and for material possessions.
There's a lot of weird instincts that people have.
You've got to wonder, how are these serving us?
How is it serving us to live your whole life to try to buy a new house on a Lexus?
What is it?
What is it about that?
Well, there's something about the pursuit of material possessions that encourages innovation and encourages the production of things.
That's what people do.
They make things.
And if this is what our goal is, just like a bee makes a beehive and we make things, what's the ultimate expression of those things?
Well, the ultimate expression would be a new form of life.
And it seems there's a lot of work being pushed in that direction.
There's a lot of work being pushed in the direction of artificial intelligence, of robotics.
I mean, there's so much Research that's going on right now to try to create these autonomous things that move around on their own.
Whether it's autonomous soldiers for the battlefield, or whether it's drones that can fly themselves and operate on artificial intelligence.
This direction is going to eventually, if you talk to people far smarter than me, like Elon Musk is terrified of it because he thinks it's unchecked and that it's going to lead to something that's super potent, sentient, far smarter than us and has no use for us.
So then you keep it open that God can be a creator and can respond to the power of prayer.
If you are praying for somebody, and there are a lot of studies that say the power of prayer works more than just a placebo kind of effect, that it actually works if you have a control group and a group that you're praying for and a group that's in a lot of tests like this that are double-blind tests.
And it works in a laboratory kind of context.
What is it that's responding to the request for prayer?
I don't know that it's true that prayer works like that.
I do know that the placebo effect works and I do know that the mind has extraordinary properties that we haven't harnessed.
I do know that people have the ability to change their state of mind and it'll change their physical well-being.
I do know that people have the ability to boost their immune system through breathing exercises and meditation and that we don't totally understand how they're doing that or why they're doing that or why we can't recreate that without that kind of discipline.
So that like, well, you know, I think that's also probably works in a negative way, too, right?
This is what the concept of voodoo was.
The concept of voodoo was that someone puts a curse on you and they let you know they put a curse on you and then your life is fucked and then you get it in your head that your life is fucked and then you have this self-fulfilling prophecy.
Well, supposedly the results under legitimate test conditions are that the results are greater than you can explain Otherwise, you may not even know that you're being prayed for.
It's a controlled situation, so you don't even know that you're part of the group that's being prayed for.
I think that gets into how the tests are set up in order to make sure that they're balanced in the group, the sample group that's being prayed for, or the person.
According to the literature, not just his book, but others, that it helps also the number of people that are praying for you and how committed everybody is to that, how earnest they are in the effort.