All Episodes
Nov. 24, 2020 - The Joe Rogan Experience
03:38:21
Joe Rogan Experience #1569 - John Mackey
Participants
Main voices
j
joe rogan
01:45:14
j
john mackey
01:48:26
Appearances
j
jamie vernon
01:30
| Copy link to current segment

Speaker Time Text
unidentified
The Joe Rogan Experience.
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.
joe rogan
Hello, John.
john mackey
Hey, Joe.
joe rogan
Nice to meet you.
john mackey
Likewise.
joe rogan
Thank you for welcoming me to Austin.
Thanks for the food.
No one's ever brought me food here.
john mackey
I'm a grocer.
That's what I do.
joe rogan
I know, but you brought me actual frozen meat, so thank you very much.
john mackey
Frozen meat, some vegan cheese.
joe rogan
Yeah, that will go to friends.
john mackey
It's really good.
It's really good.
joe rogan
Does it taste good, or is it good for you?
john mackey
Both.
It's just made strictly out of almonds.
That's all that's there in culture.
unidentified
Oh, really?
john mackey
Yeah, taste it.
It's a cream cheese with chives in it.
It's delicious.
joe rogan
I really just like almonds.
Can I just have almonds?
john mackey
You can, but you'll like the cheese.
Give it a try.
I know you're an open-minded man.
joe rogan
Yeah, I am.
I'll try your vegan cheese.
john mackey
Okay.
joe rogan
But you're sending me mixed signals.
You gave me frozen elk meat and vegan cheese.
john mackey
I'm, you know, covering all bases.
joe rogan
What I want to talk to you about...
Well, first of all, you have a book out.
The book is Conscious Capitalism.
john mackey
No, that book that's out is Conscious Leadership, which is a sequel to...
You already have that book.
joe rogan
Right, but I have this one right here.
john mackey
Yeah, because I brought that today.
joe rogan
And Conscious Leadership, a sequel to Conscious Capitalism.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
For a lot of people, that's an oxymoron.
That's jumbo shrimp or military intelligence, right?
Conscious capitalism.
Today, in this day and age, this very strange time, there's a large segment, I shouldn't say a large segment, but it's a very squeaky wheel.
There's a segment of our culture that thinks that capitalism is evil.
john mackey
Yeah, I'm not in that classification.
In fact, I think the opposite.
I think capitalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
If you go back just 200 years ago when capitalism was really getting going, 94% of the people alive on the planet Earth lived on less than $2 a day.
And that's adjusted for inflation.
94%.
Today it's under 10%.
If you go back 200 years ago, the average lifespan was 30. Now it's 72.6.
And in advanced countries, it's about 80. Illiteracy rates 200 years ago were 88% of the world couldn't read.
Now it's down to 12%.
joe rogan
But can you attribute that solely to capitalism?
Or wouldn't you attribute that to innovation and technology?
john mackey
That's the right name for capitalism.
Karl Marx called it capitalism.
What it really is, a better name, which we talked about in Conscious Leadership, is innovationism.
Continuous innovation is how humanity progresses.
But it's business that takes the innovations of science and puts them into forms that create value for other people.
So it's been capitalism or innovationism that's lifted humanity out of the dirt, that's transforming our world.
Even as we speak, it's amazing just what's happened in my lifetime.
It's astounding, all the progress that humanity's made.
And we're going through a tough year right now.
So it doesn't work in a perfect linear line, but the trend lines are clear.
The book I always try to get everybody to read is Steven Pinker's book, Enlightenment Now.
Have you ever taken a look at that book?
joe rogan
No, I haven't, but I'm a big fan of a lot of his work.
john mackey
Yeah, that book just documents, it's just unbelievable how he documents progress since the Enlightenment.
It's incredible.
joe rogan
The problem that a lot of people have with capitalism is they attribute capitalism to greed.
They attribute greed and the problems of the world, environmental destruction, and ignoring climate change.
They attribute that to capitalism.
And they think that the way out of this is socialism, some type of socialism.
In my opinion, the people that are saying that, I don't think there's anything wrong with contributing and contributing to a better community in terms of making healthcare more affordable or free, making education more affordable or free.
But human beings need incentives in order to perform.
And that's just human nature, whether we like it or not.
If you want a system that allows for a continual progress of innovation, like constant innovation, you've got to give people incentives to do that.
Just the human animal strives to achieve for whatever reason.
john mackey
Totally agree.
I mean, it's not like socialism hasn't been tried.
In the last hundred years, 42 countries have tried socialism, and there have been 42 failures.
joe rogan
Isn't it amazing that it's still popular?
john mackey
Because people just believe, well, because a new generation doesn't know their history.
And they just believe it hasn't been done right yet.
This time, give me the power, and I'll make sure it gets done right.
But it can't be done right.
It's intrinsically flawed.
And they fall back on the Scandinavian argument.
What about Sweden and Denmark and Norway?
But those – if you look at the Economic Freedom Index, those are some of the most capitalistic countries in the world.
And the Economic Freedom Index, for example, Denmark's listed one place below the United States.
It's like number 12. Sweden's like number 20. United States is like number 13 or 14. So Iceland is the freest of those Scandinavian countries.
So Sweden's held up as an example, but what people don't realize is the corporate income taxes in Sweden are only 21%.
They have no inheritance taxes at all.
They have universal vouchers for education, so free competition in education, not a monopoly.
They are probably in a lot of ways more capitalistic than Americans are.
joe rogan
So what is it that they point to when they point to these Scandinavian countries?
What are they using as an example of them being a shining light of socialism?
john mackey
In some sense, they're still stuck in the 60s when Sweden did an experiment with socialism before it moved away from it.
They're still living in the 60s.
And yet they tried it and their economy tanked.
joe rogan
What did they try?
How'd they try it?
john mackey
They socialized industry.
They had government to own the means of productions in most of these large corporations.
And they had very high business taxes.
And a lot of people, like Beyond Borg is a good example, was driven out of Sweden.
Or Ingmar Bergman, driven out for unbelievably high taxes.
So, hey, just like you've been driven out of California.
joe rogan
Yeah, I wasn't driven out of it because of that.
If California was still open the way Texas is, I would have stayed.
I saw the writing on the wall with many things.
One of them was that they were closing restaurants and bars and comedy clubs, and they weren't closing them in other states.
And I didn't think that they were recognizing that there's an impact health-wise.
There's also a health impact if you destroy the economy.
Right.
When your economy tanks and 40 plus percent of your businesses are gone, I don't think economically you're going to bounce back nearly as well.
I think it's a very dangerous place to be.
Like Los Angeles right now, if you're a business owner, it's a dangerous place to be.
Because all of a sudden, governors...
Are acting like autocrats.
There was a recent ruling where he lost in court because he's passing legislation on his own.
He's making mandates on his own that the rest of the state doesn't agree with and they're not going through the normal process.
And they've stopped him from doing that now.
But look, they still just put it, they imposed a curfew in Los Angeles of 10pm.
Just a random curfew.
Like, what is, how is that stopping?
All you're doing is limiting people.
You're limiting, you're not...
There's no emphasis whatsoever on strengthening people's immune system or on health, and all this emphasis on tanking the economy.
All this emphasis on closing businesses down.
And I just saw the writing on the wall, and I'm like, this place is fucking doomed.
john mackey
I think you're telling the truth there, Joe.
I agree.
joe rogan
I just can't believe that...
See, before, it didn't matter that much who your governor was or who your mayor was.
When everything was going well, people didn't think about it that much.
You know, you would be like, oh, you know, the mayor, whatever the fuck his name is, he's kind of goofy.
Who cares?
Let's go to work.
And you would just do your normal thing and go, this is America.
How bad can they fuck this up?
And then you realize in time of crisis when they assume these powers that they never had before.
And then you realize how insanely hypocritical they are.
Well, thankfully, our governor, the governor of California, not my governor anymore, I got a Texas license now.
Give me some knuckles.
john mackey
Congratulations.
joe rogan
Thank you.
But when they caught him at that restaurant, the French Laundry, you know, eating with no mask on, inside, no social distancing, all the things that he tells everybody to do.
He tells everybody to put a mask on in between your bites of food, and he's not doing it himself.
You're like, okay.
This is exactly like his aunt Nancy Pelosi when she got busted going to a beauty parlor with no mask on while they were all closed down.
It's rules for you, but not rules for them.
And it's disgusting.
john mackey
Right.
I mean, is it really about the COVID or is it about the rules?
I mean, that's really the question.
joe rogan
Well, human beings love telling people what to do.
john mackey
They do.
joe rogan
They really do.
And if they have a reason where they can justify that, that it seems feasible, like COVID, then they just start imposing those rules.
john mackey
And if people are frightened, they're more likely to go along with those rules, too.
joe rogan
Imagine if instead of doing what they did, imagine if they spent a lot of time telling people how to strengthen their immune system.
Imagine if they distributed free vitamins.
Imagine if they put money into keeping these hospitals well staffed, hired more people, and maybe even possibly tried to talk about opening up Alternative hospitals, if there was some overflow, but allowed people to go to work, told people, look, wear your mask, social distance, take care of your health, take your fight, do all these things.
But we can't fucking tank the economy for nine months and not expect disaster.
john mackey
Well, we actually have some good examples out there.
And even though it gets a lot of criticism, the way Sweden handled it, Is probably, again, more aligned with how America might have handled it in the previous decades.
joe rogan
Is that comparable, though?
Because Sweden is so small in comparison.
I mean, you have Stockholm, you have some cities, but you have all these, like, small villages, and people are generally healthier there, too.
unidentified
Yeah.
john mackey
I think it's comparable in the sense that, in general, people are the best judges for what's best for themselves.
I mean, government can give advice.
They made recommendations to people in Sweden.
They just didn't coerce them.
They just didn't force them to have a curfew here.
Their kids went to school and...
People, in general, people can make good decisions for themselves and their families.
They're the ones that should be making the decisions, not the government.
joe rogan
100%.
I couldn't agree more.
And that is the difference between the way Texas approached this and the way California did.
That's what drove me out of California.
Yeah, the high taxes are stupid, but...
I liked living there.
All my friends were there.
john mackey
Because where is it more beautiful in the whole world than California?
It's an amazing climate.
It's just a very, very incredibly beautiful place.
joe rogan
I got tired of running from fires, too.
john mackey
Well, that's true.
I love to visit California, but I wouldn't want to live there.
joe rogan
The comedy community there is pretty awesome.
It's the Comedy Store and the Improv.
I mean, it's just two of the best clubs in the world, and they're right in this one city, and the community of comedians is just fantastic.
And the fact that they closed all that down...
john mackey
Was it the Silicon Valley, so to speak, of comedy?
joe rogan
Maybe better, yeah.
Because Silicon Valley is...
I mean, there's other parts of the world that have technology hubs, right?
There's not really another comedy hub other than New York.
john mackey
Chicago?
joe rogan
Not really, no.
Chicago has Second City, which is an improv hub.
It's different.
There's a great history of sketch comedy out of there, of course.
Second City is where Belushi came from and a lot of great sketch comedians came from.
But as far as stand-up, it's really LA and New York.
It used to be Boston, had a big part of it, and Boston still has a small community.
Austin has, right here, Austin, Texas has a small community that's always been very good, like Kinnison and Hicks.
Hicks actually came out of here.
john mackey
Have you done stand-up in Austin here?
joe rogan
Yeah, I have.
Yeah, I did Stubbs Barbecue at Chappelle last week.
And then I did Vulcan Gas Company the week before.
So yeah, I'm getting rolling again.
Ultimately, I'm going to open up a club here.
john mackey
So you still love doing stand-up?
joe rogan
It's the most fun.
It's the most fun, John.
john mackey
I know I'm not interviewing you, but when you were like a kid, were you the class clown?
joe rogan
No.
john mackey
That came later?
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
You were a good boy?
joe rogan
No, I wasn't a good boy at all.
Most of my friends thought I was crazy.
They never thought I was going to be a comedian.
If you talk to the people that I went to high school with...
john mackey
You told me earlier that comedians, as a general rule, are kind of screwed up.
joe rogan
Oh yeah, yeah, 100%.
As a general rule, to want to do that, to want to humiliate yourself, get on stage, and the failure, the bombing, is some of the most intense emotional pain a person can ever subject themselves to, or be subjected to.
john mackey
Is it worse than getting rejected by a girl that you're in love with?
joe rogan
It's like sucking a thousand dicks in front of your mother.
That's how I usually describe it.
But it's different and worse because some guys would probably like doing that.
There's some people that I'd be like, watch, Mom!
This is who I am!
And then they would enjoy it.
john mackey
Get over it, Mom.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Get over it, Mom.
No one likes bombing.
Somebody might like sucking a thousand dicks in front of their mom.
No one likes bombing.
It's just an awful feeling.
You're demanding attention, and you don't deserve it.
And the audience is like, you don't deserve this attention.
And you know you don't deserve it, so you have this deep self-hate.
But you have to get through that to get good at it.
It's an inevitable part of the whole process of doing stand-up.
john mackey
You kind of sync up with the audience?
Can you kind of tell what's going to land that night?
Do you change your show, so to speak, as you pick up the feeling in the audience?
joe rogan
Ah, you move around a little depending upon how you feel and how they feel.
But, you know, you have an act.
And your act is...
john mackey
But you have a lot of different things, a lot of things you could do.
joe rogan
Yeah, there's a lot of things you talk about.
john mackey
I mean, as you like to say, I don't think this joke's going to land with this particular audience.
No, sometimes I'll force feed them.
They need to hear this.
joe rogan
It gives you an opportunity to try to figure out a better way to word it, or a better way to justify your position, or a softer way to land it.
There's a lot of different weird things that are going on when you're doing comedy.
Comedy is kind of like mass hypnosis.
That's what it's like.
john mackey
I do a lot of public speaking, so...
I've learned that you have to sync up with the audience.
And I can just tell whether this is going to land well with this particular group or whether it's not.
And I sort of adjust on the fly.
I still have a speech I'm going to give, but I do alter it as I go along.
I shorten some stuff, lengthen other stuff, and I substitute if I think that's going to bomb out.
joe rogan
Well, I think public speaking, like what you're doing when you're standing up and talking about a very particular subject...
It's almost more open-ended because you really never know what kind of crowd you're going to get, whether they're going to be in a good mood or a bad mood, whether they're bored or hot or cold.
When you go to see comedy, generally people go there because they want to have fun.
So they have a good perspective when they get there.
They're like, I've come here to have fun and laugh.
I hope these comedians are funny.
You go there with a little bit of a smile on your face when you sit down.
Like, here we go.
It's going to be fun.
john mackey
Yeah, and so they have a predisposition to want to laugh anyway.
joe rogan
Yes, yes.
john mackey
They're not going there to judge you.
They're going there to laugh.
joe rogan
Some people are, but those people are, you know.
john mackey
They already didn't like you before they went there.
joe rogan
Or, you know, there's some people that think they're going to, oh, I want to go and laugh.
I'm going to heckle.
I'm going to show them what's up.
But generally, clubs kick those people out.
Really, most people that come to comedy clubs, they go because it's fun.
Look, I still love comedy as an audience member.
I enjoy it as a customer.
It's fun.
I love watching great comedians.
It feels good to laugh.
I love their creativity.
john mackey
Do you learn a lot from other comedians?
joe rogan
Yeah, you do.
You learn what makes you laugh.
Sometimes I'll see someone performing and it'll inspire me.
I'm like, wow, that guy really put a lot into that.
Or, wow, her writing is so clever.
It'll fire up your neurons.
It'll get you excited.
john mackey
Do you do all your own writing?
joe rogan
Yes.
I do all my own writing.
john mackey
Is that common or unusual?
joe rogan
Most comedians do that.
There's only a few comics.
john mackey
Am I giving you any material right now, Joe?
joe rogan
No, not yet.
Maybe.
It'll happen.
Occasionally, comedians will write taglines for each other.
Michelle Wolf gave me a great tagline after we did a show together the other night.
She gave me a really nice tagline.
I was like, oh!
Right when she said it, I was like, that's nice.
john mackey
I'll tell you later.
I have to pay to go to the club.
joe rogan
No, I'll tell you.
I just don't want to say it online.
All off.
john mackey
I didn't know you censored yourself when you were doing this show.
joe rogan
I'm not censoring myself, John.
Why are you making me uncomfortable?
Making me sensitive.
Austin's a particularly good place to do comedy because there's a great history of stand-up comedy in Texas.
Like, Kinison, who's arguably one of the greatest of all time, you know, this is where he cut his teeth.
This is where it all went together for him.
So, Austin, like, when I first started doing stand-up, I was selling out in Houston before I was selling out anywhere.
Because for whatever reason, they had this longing for that kind of raw comedy that you really, it's hard to get in a lot of places that are maybe a little bit too politically correct.
Like there's certain places where they're so woke.
They're almost like they want to laugh, but they want to call you out on your comedy almost as much as they want to laugh.
john mackey
And they don't want to get criticized for laughing on something that they shouldn't laugh at, right?
joe rogan
Yeah, we were talking about this before the show.
john mackey
They should go in disguise.
joe rogan
Yeah, right, like a Groucho Marx nose.
john mackey
Exactly, exactly.
joe rogan
Glasses and mustache.
john mackey
Exactly.
joe rogan
Well, you can get some great disguises today, you know, like the prosthetics and all the stuff that they can do today.
Yeah, if you want to go to a comedy show and just laugh at the most horrible shit.
john mackey
Maybe some of them are doing that.
I don't think they are, John.
joe rogan
I don't think people think that far in advance.
Maybe like a very, very small percentage of the population.
Have you been to a lot of stand-up comedy?
john mackey
I haven't.
joe rogan
No?
john mackey
I confess.
I've just been working my ass off for a long time.
joe rogan
I think it would be interesting for you just from the perspective of the fact that you do a lot of these public speaking gigs.
I think whenever you get the chance to see someone else perform in a different way, I like going to see musicians.
Because I have zero talent.
I have no musical talent at all.
So when I go to see a musician, I can just enjoy it solely as an audience member.
I don't have to remove myself as a fellow comic.
I'll judge someone's delivery or timing.
Even though I'm trying to just enjoy it, there's always going to be a part of you that's like, oh, this is kind of clunky.
Like, why is he setting it up like this?
But when you go to see music, I can just enjoy someone performing.
I think I get something out of that.
john mackey
I'm gonna give it another try.
joe rogan
I'll tell you when I'm in town next.
Back to the subject of capitalism.
Capitalism and Marxism and socialism.
Right now, we're in a wave of this, right?
It's become more popular now, I would say over the last, particularly during the Trump administration, the concept of socialism at least has become more publicly discussed than any time that I can remember in my life.
Why do you think that is?
john mackey
I think it's because the generation that's coming up is...
I mean, you have to understand the academic community is...
I always say the intellectuals have always been the enemy of business, certainly the enemy of capitalism.
joe rogan
But why is that?
john mackey
I think because in a market society, which has been rare in history, we haven't mostly had market societies, but they're not very important in a market society.
joe rogan
The intellectuals aren't very important?
john mackey
Generally not as important, no.
joe rogan
But aren't they the ones that inspire the minds of the people that create and maybe innovate in the industry?
john mackey
They don't have the same social status that the entrepreneurs have.
unidentified
Oh.
john mackey
Elon Musk or Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos.
joe rogan
So you think it's an ego issue?
The social status issue?
john mackey
Think about it this way.
You're going to school, okay?
And the people that end up teaching in the universities were always the smartest kids in the school generally.
And they did well in school.
I mean smart in terms of doing well in school.
And they go on to college, and then they go and get a PhD, and then that's all they've known is school.
That's been their universe, right?
And they excelled at it.
And they were smarter than the other kids in school.
And now these other kids, they go to college, and they get a degree in business, and they're in a fraternity, and they make a lot of friends and relationships, and they make more money than the intellectuals do.
And that seems like that's completely unfair.
It's an unjust world that the less smart people are making more money than the smart people do, and they have more status in the society.
And I think underlying it is a resentment or an envy of a society that doesn't judge them to be as important as they judge themselves.
joe rogan
That's interesting, but I think it's a very flawed perspective.
And first of all, the term smart is a weird term, right?
john mackey
I said smart in terms of school.
I didn't say in terms of street smarts or ability to do things, to connect with people.
There's emotional intelligence.
I'm merely saying they're good at taking tests, writing papers, abstracting thoughts, essentially.
joe rogan
Yeah, but this is what I'm saying.
That...
Just the term smart, it's almost like...
The problem is it's like a blanket term, right?
It's like drugs.
It applies to a bunch of different things that don't necessarily seem to be related.
But the people that are interested in that pursue that.
The fact that they can't understand that there's an...
Like, Elon Musk is a great example.
If you don't think Elon Musk is intelligent, you're either...
john mackey
You're not very intelligent yourself if you don't think Elon Musk is intelligent.
joe rogan
You're delusional...
Or you're a liar.
Or you're in denial.
It's one of those things.
Is something wrong with the way you think?
He's clearly intelligent.
But there's people that call him a fool.
The guy's running four different businesses simultaneously.
They're all successful.
And he's innovating when it comes to space travel in a way that you would assume that someone would have to dedicate most of their life...
Just singularly to that task to be able to figure out past NASA how to shoot a rocket up into space and have it land and then reuse it.
No one's been able to do that besides him or up until he did it.
And I think Jeff Bezos' company is doing the same thing too now.
john mackey
Blue Origin.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
They're obviously two of the great entrepreneurs of this particular era.
joe rogan
But I don't think Jeff Bezos is actually engineering these things.
john mackey
But if you think about it, the intellectuals have always disliked business.
They've always discriminated against the merchant classes, the Jews in the West, Chinese in the East.
There's really been no historical period where intellectuals praised business, maybe a little bit around the time of Adam Smith up until probably Ricardo and Malthus wrote in the early 19th century.
For the most part, business people have been seeing – they're disruptive.
They upset the status quo.
They innovate.
Well, a lot of people don't like innovations.
It's threatening.
It changes social status.
It changes wealth relationships.
It's almost like capitalism is like a genie that got out of the bottle and they're trying very hard to stuff the genie back in the bottle as much as they can.
And I think if you think about it that way, you'll understand we're never going to win the intellectuals over.
I mean...
I speak in universities all the time.
And the students...
I'm an entrepreneur.
I self-identify that way.
Students love when I talk about conscious capitalism.
I say, you can do good and you can do well.
There's no contradiction here.
You're the good guys here.
You're not the bad guys.
joe rogan
Do you debate people about this?
unidentified
I do.
john mackey
I've debated a number of socialists.
joe rogan
And what is their primary argument?
john mackey
Their primary argument is that business is greedy and selfish and it's about motivations.
That business people have the wrong motivations.
In a lot of ways, Conscious Capitalism is an answer to that.
It's a complete answer to that because in the book and in Conscious Leadership as well, we're basically arguing that business isn't primarily about maximizing profits.
Business is primarily about creating value for other people.
And through creating value for other people, you do make a profit.
But it's the value creation that comes first.
The profits come second in exchange, right?
And it's almost if you are creating value, then you are profitable.
And then you can reinvest those profits and you have this upwards spiral.
So that's – business has its potential for higher purpose.
It's not primarily about greed.
Greed is found in human nature, Joe.
It's not just found in business people.
There are plenty of greedy governmental officials, plenty of greedy politicians, greedy lawyers.
Greed is endemic to the human nature.
Business people either have no more or no less than it.
It's just part of who we are.
joe rogan
Has anyone ever laid it out in a way that's very compelling?
Like when you have these debates with socialists, has anyone ever laid it out in a way where they have a point where you see their point?
john mackey
The best way to do a debate is to completely understand the other side's position.
Understand it as good or better than they understand it.
And so I've read widely in socialistic literature.
I think I do understand it.
It's a type of utopianism.
It's an attempt to change human nature.
If we would all love each other and if we'd all share equally, then the world would be a better place.
And hey, guess what?
It probably would be if we were naturally that way, but we're not naturally that way.
We look first generally for ourselves and our own families and then our growing circle of relationships that we develop.
It's not natural to...
It's natural to want your own children to have advantages.
That's just human nature to want your children to flourish because you raise them, you love them.
And somehow or another to say that's unfair is cutting against human nature.
People are always going to look for advantages or privileges, so to speak, for their children.
joe rogan
People don't like when people have advantages and have victories because then someone has to lose.
When someone loses, they equate that someone losing with a bad feeling, with that person being victimized.
john mackey
So here's a big idea.
We talk about unconscious leadership.
We have a chapter called Find Win-Win-Win Solutions.
The metaphors that we use to think about society tend to be very binary.
Good versus evil.
Light versus darkness.
Win versus lose.
And so they tend to think of business as a win-lose game.
Somebody wins and somebody else is losing.
But the beauty of capitalism is it's a win-win-win game.
It's an infinite game.
It's a game because the customers are winning or they wouldn't trade.
The employees are winning.
How are the customers winning?
They're getting products and services and there's competition to make those services and products better.
The employees are winning because they have jobs and opportunities to grow.
Benefits are paid and they do that voluntarily, not forced to work for any particular company.
They do it because they think it's in their best interest.
Win for the employees.
The suppliers who are trading with the business, they're winning as well or they wouldn't make the exchanges.
Investors are winning or they wouldn't make the investments.
And the larger society is winning because business is the engine that creates all the money that goes into non-profits and governments.
Without business, there is no government and there is no non-profit sector because those are ultimately supplied through what business creates.
So business is a win-win-win game.
All of these stakeholders are winning.
And that's why capitalism lifts society up.
Socialism is an attempt to reverse that back to a win-lose game.
And that's why it always fails.
And that's why capitalism always wins.
joe rogan
How is it an attempt to bring it back to a win-lose game?
In what way?
john mackey
The ones that are winning, so to speak, the business people are clamped down.
So they're not allowed to win.
It's like we're going to take your success and we're going to redistribute it.
So that, as again, you said earlier on, incentives matter.
But we're going to take away the incentives for business to really flourish and succeed.
They should do it from altruistic reasons.
And we may do some things for altruistic reasons, but you cannot build a society around it.
joe rogan
When you're talking about win-win-win, this is a very, in many ways, it's, I see what you're saying, but there are things that are negative that are associated with profit and innovation and particularly expanding industry, right?
Particularly environmental impacts.
Like when you talk, when you say win-win-win, like there's very rarely when you're, especially when you're dealing with creating and designing and building things, you've got a negative impact in some way environmentally.
john mackey
Two points.
First of all, historically socialism has been far worse polluter than in capitalist countries.
unidentified
How so?
john mackey
Well, if you just look at the environmental destruction that the Soviet Union left behind it, it was a complete disaster.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
But this is socialism done wrong, John.
We're going to do it right here.
john mackey
Who has done it right, Joe?
joe rogan
No one.
john mackey
No one's done it right.
But the Soviet Union is a bad example because Stalin was… Yeah, but all of Eastern Europe.
There's no incentive to protect the common good in socialism.
And they don't.
When the government has a monopoly of all decision and power making, they don't tend to look out for the environment.
That's one of the myths.
joe rogan
You also take away agency from people.
And you take away their desire to improve and do better.
And without incentive, people just don't perform the same way.
john mackey
But the beautiful thing about business, let's concede a partial truth to what you said.
That there will be...
Unintended negative consequences, as you say, environmentally.
Well, that's why you have to regulate business to a certain extent.
That's why you have to make people responsible for their environmental pollutants.
And because business innovates and has an incentive to innovate, Business can innovate and create solutions to those environmental problems.
joe rogan
Okay, let me stop you there for a second.
When you say make people responsible for their environmental pollutants, then we're going to have to deal with another aspect of capitalism.
And that's the effect that special interest groups and lobbyists have on politicians.
Because they create laws that shield these big businesses from consequences from these negative actions.
So by saying that they have to clean up their problem...
The only way that's ever going to happen is if they're not protected, if they don't use that influence and money.
john mackey
Totally agree.
joe rogan
So this is where I think a lot of people have a valid argument against capitalism.
Capitalism has kind of fucked over our system of government in a way because money has gotten so deeply involved with super PACs and lobbyists and there's so much money involved.
That it changes the way we govern things.
john mackey
Is that a flaw of capitalism or is that a flaw of government?
joe rogan
I think it's a flaw of government, but that government has been influenced by capitalism.
By capitalism's desire for universal growth.
For constant growth.
john mackey
The sad truth is that...
Humanity is not perfectible.
We can never create the perfect system.
And the attempt to create the perfect system, the perfect is the enemy of the good.
Capitalism is not perfect.
Because human choices and what people want varies.
Capitalism will sell cigarettes to people because that's what people want.
It gives them pleasure, but it's bad for their health.
But they're giving people what they want.
It's the same thing in any type of Right.
But what you strive for is to take those externalities or those negative consequences and try to, through good government, to minimize them or lessen them.
I'll give you an example.
So you used to live in L.A.
Well, when I went to L.A. back in the early 80s, it was like going to New Delhi today.
I couldn't see.
My lungs hurt less than 24 hours.
But through good regulations, the air in L.A. is a fraction as polluted as it was 40 years ago.
We have been able to clean it up.
That is an example of how you can take the worst impacts of industrialization and ameliorate them or lessen them.
joe rogan
What do you think about the government of LA's decision or the governor of California rather's decision to eliminate all sales of combustion engine cars after 2035?
john mackey
It's easy to...
My first thought is that a lot of times people make these proclamations in the future that they'll never be around to see the ultimate that actually realized, meaning that it'll be somebody else's problem then.
So it's...
A politician will make promises and claims for the future that they won't themselves ever deliver on.
So I... I think that's well-intentioned in terms of lessening environmental externalities from the internal combustion engine or from carbon production.
However, is it realistic?
Is it possible?
I don't think so.
joe rogan
Well, there's also people that argue that it's not even well-intentioned.
Dragging minerals out of the ground to make these batteries.
That the production of electric cars, it's not a zero impact on the environment at all.
It's like there's profound impacts.
john mackey
There is...
There's no escape.
You know, humanity, ever since humanity's been around, Joe, it's had a negative impact on the environment.
Right.
The hunters and gatherers wiped out most of the large animal species that they could that were wild.
They did it everywhere they went.
They did it in Europe.
They did it in North America.
They did it in Australia.
Agriculture is when you take a lot of land under cultivation, you're going to mow down the jungles and if you're going to graze cattle, that's going to have a negative impact on the environment.
There's no escaping human humanity's impact on the environment.
It's always going to be there.
Because guess what?
We're part of the environment.
The question is, you can create the win-win-win.
You just can't create perfection.
We solve some problems, and when new problems come up, every generation has to begin to solve the problems that the parents couldn't solve.
joe rogan
I agree with you that capitalism is a better alternative, and I agree because of all the things that we talked about, that it gives more incentive, that having innovation And having these incentives creates better alternatives for people in terms of how to live their life.
It gives them, in terms of medicine, and in terms of what's going on in the medical industry, saving far more lives, fixing far more people that have been injured.
I agree with all those things.
I just think that sometimes we tend to want to put things in these very simplistic packages, like win-win-win.
And I don't necessarily think that's a...
john mackey
Win-win-win is an ethical framework that you can use to think about situations.
You and I have met today, so we can create win-wins between each other.
Reciprocity.
In fact, we're probably doing that right now.
I have a new book that I'd love for people to read.
joe rogan
And you gave me some vegan cheese.
john mackey
And you're not paying me anything to come on your show, and I usually get a lot of money when I speak.
So it's a win-win.
We're both gaining or we wouldn't be doing this exchange.
joe rogan
Who pays you to speak?
Generally, is it these business conferences where people want to learn about?
john mackey
Mostly business conferences.
joe rogan
So people want to learn how you get it?
john mackey
Trade shows.
One guy told me one time, he said, he was really honest.
He said, this was a few years ago, and he said, there were like three pretty well-known business speakers, including myself.
And I said, how did you get all three of us?
And he said, you were all three were a lot cheaper than Hillary.
And the point is, and he told me, he said, look, it's simple.
We have a trade show.
They're mostly going to be on the floor.
This is the one time I can get everybody in around the industry because they'll come in to hear you speak or to hear the other speakers.
So we're paying you to put butts in the seats so we can hold our trade show together.
So that's a win-win.
It's good for me.
They're paying me money.
It's good for them.
We're getting butts in the seats to listen to their trade show spiel.
joe rogan
And also you want to give people...
john mackey
I want to get my message out there.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
I want to get my message out there about Conscious Capitalism.
joe rogan
This message, is this something that you have sort of developed over the years of arguing with people about it?
john mackey
No, it's mostly from what we did at Whole Foods, because I had no background in business, right?
I'm an entrepreneur.
I didn't...
joe rogan
You guys started here, right?
john mackey
In Austin, that's right.
I first started here over 42 years ago.
joe rogan
Jesus, you look great.
How old are you?
john mackey
67. You look very good.
Well, thank you.
joe rogan
Tell you right now.
john mackey
See, look, win-win-win.
We're a win-win relationship here.
joe rogan
You're eating all that Whole Foods foods.
john mackey
I'm eating all that healthy Whole Foods.
joe rogan
That is one thing that you guys did do that's very interesting, right?
You created a market where, like, if you tell people, I go to Whole Foods, you know, people are like, oh, well, you care about your health.
Like, it's synonymous with healthy foods, even in the name, Whole Foods.
john mackey
That was our brand when we were up and comer.
And then when we got really rich, America loves the up and comer.
But then once you have become really successful and you're making a lot of money, they start to turn on you.
joe rogan
Oh, no.
john mackey
Well, we became whole paycheck.
joe rogan
Who said that?
john mackey
I don't know, but whoever did, I wish they...
joe rogan
I never saw it.
I never saw that until right now.
You just shit on yourself in a way that I never...
All I heard was Whole Foods.
I never heard Whole Paycheck.
john mackey
Then your team didn't do good research.
joe rogan
I have no team.
So is this when you sold to Amazon?
john mackey
No, no.
The Whole Paycheck thing has been around for a long time.
joe rogan
Oh, because Whole Paycheck meaning because it's so expensive.
john mackey
Yes, because initially when we were up-and-comer, If you shop at Whole Foods, you were showing everybody you were with it.
joe rogan
Environmentally conscious.
john mackey
Yes, and you were hip and cool.
And then the narrative went sour because it's like you're a fool for shopping there because you can get the same food cheaper elsewhere, so you're going to Whole Paycheck.
So the narrative turned negative, so to speak.
I still see that pretty much all the time, although since our merger with Amazon, we've cut our prices many, many times.
joe rogan
How'd you do that?
john mackey
Amazon allowed Whole Foods to think long term again.
We needed to cut our prices, but when you're a public company, if you're selling something for a dollar and you say, you know what, we need to sell this for 90 cents, and you start selling it for 90 cents, in the short run, you just cut your sales 10% because you're not selling any more of it.
Over the long term, People will realize, man, I can get a good deal for 90 cents.
I used to pay a buck for it.
And they start to shop with you more and your sales will go up.
But when you're a public company and the market's very short-term oriented, you pay a heavy price in the short term for reducing your prices.
And Amazon is willing to think long-term and let Whole Foods do that.
joe rogan
Because Jeff Bezos got that long money, son.
john mackey
He has long money because he's had a lot of brilliant ideas and put together a pretty good team.
joe rogan
Yeah, what keeps that guy working?
When you have $150 in the bank, $150 billion, what keeps you going?
john mackey
Well, most of it he doesn't have it in the bank.
He's got it in stock.
joe rogan
He's got a few in the bank.
john mackey
He's got a few in the bank, probably.
joe rogan
I feel like he could probably relax.
john mackey
I mean, I think the same thing that keeps me going at age 67. I mean...
Building something is great fun.
Building Whole Foods, I've got plenty of money, Joe.
I don't need to work.
I just like it.
joe rogan
It's fun.
Do you still run Whole Foods?
What's your relationship there?
Still CEO. Still CEO. So you still work long hours?
john mackey
I don't work as long today as I did when I was in my 20s and 30s.
There's no question about it because I was putting a lot of 80-hour weeks in year after year after year after year.
You know, it wasn't work.
It was play.
I was having a blast.
It was fun.
joe rogan
Elon Musk has famously said that if you're in a tech startup and you're not working 120 hour weeks, you won't succeed.
unidentified
Yeah.
john mackey
I've never been into tech startups, so I can't speak for that.
The grocery business wasn't quite that hard, but we did put a lot of 80-hour weeks in.
joe rogan
That seems like not a lot of time to sleep.
john mackey
And I'm a great believer in sleep.
Sleep is how you...
joe rogan
How many hours are left?
How many hours are in a week?
john mackey
Well, let's see.
There's 24 hours, 168 hours a week.
joe rogan
168 hours a week?
john mackey
He's only got 48 hours to sleep.
joe rogan
That is ridiculous, Elon.
john mackey
How dare you?
Well, I don't know.
All you did was 48 hours...
Divided by seven.
That's almost seven hours a night.
If all you did was work and sleep, I don't know when he eats.
Maybe you have to eat when you're working.
joe rogan
You definitely have to eat.
I would recommend eating.
john mackey
You've got to go to the bathroom sometime.
You've got to scratch that out.
joe rogan
So you sleep seven hours a night and just stay at work.
john mackey
Yeah, I don't actually think...
You have to put a lot of energy in to build anything.
joe rogan
Yes.
john mackey
But if you're doing it right, we talk a lot about conscious capitalism is about higher purpose.
If you have a purpose that's animating you, it doesn't feel like work.
It feels like play.
It also attracts people to you that share that same purpose.
joe rogan
This is something that I find very frustrating in people that don't recognize that it is incredibly difficult to build a successful business when they just want to tax the shit out of people and take all that money.
Like...
Do you think it's easy to make something like Whole Foods?
Do you think it's easy to make a company like Tesla?
Do you think it's easy?
It's not easy.
It's an insanely difficult task.
That's why most people don't do it.
john mackey
Exactly.
joe rogan
But when someone does do it and they have become successful, then other people start looking at it and go, well, they have all this money.
They should contribute more or they should do this.
You're talking about...
Some people have suggested some extraordinary tax rates in order to get us out of this current recession.
And then I talk to business people and they say that is the exact wrong approach because that's actually going to stifle business and business is the only thing that's going to bring us out of this.
If you incentivize businesses to take risks and to be open and to make more profits, then more people are going to get jobs, then the economy bounces back.
But if you Give them a gigantic tax burden.
They're going to be less likely to take chances.
They're not going to be able to survive.
And people on the outside who've never built a business like Whole Foods, they don't seem to see that.
john mackey
They don't see it.
The reality is that people like an Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos, they're good capital allocators, so to speak.
They're not going to waste that money.
That money is going to be reinvested to create new and more dynamic businesses that will help – the innovations will help our society move forward.
I think we're good to go.
And for some reason, I think because of envy, it seems so unfair.
Again, we're in a win-lose model.
If Jeff Bezos has $150 billion, then that's unfair.
In some sort of cosmic way, that's unfair.
And they believe that somehow or another others have less.
So there's like this fixed pie, and Jeff took a big piece of it, or Elon Musk has taken a big piece of it.
But it's not a fixed pie.
That's the wrong metaphor.
Innovationism is continually growing the pie.
And in fact, humanity is demonstrably better off because of the capitalists, because of the innovationists.
joe rogan
Let me play devil's advocate, because this is the way they look at it.
They would say, well, when you get to that sort of a position, like a Jeff Bezos, where you have $150 billion, you can exert your influence on people in a way that's detrimental to society.
You've achieved too high of a position.
You have too much power.
And you will probably use that power to...
Loosen regulations, to bribe politicians or influence politicians, and to get laws passed that are better for your business and stifle competition.
john mackey
I think that's a powerful argument.
And if and when it happens, you have to push back against.
You have to resist it.
I think most business people are not doing that.
I don't see that Jeff's trying to pass or I don't see Jeff trying to pass laws that favor Amazon.
joe rogan
No, I don't think he is either.
I'm not saying he is.
If he was, boy, would they come after him because he's balling so hard.
They'd be like, that motherfucker who doesn't have enough?
john mackey
But I know that when Whole Foods was—we were a public company for 25 years, and we had the government go after us a few times.
They tried to stop our—we tried to make an acquisition of a company called Wild Oats back in 2007. We actually made the acquisition, but the FTC tried to stop it.
We ended up going into court with them.
We actually won in court, and very interesting, the FTC has their own court— And after we won in the federal courts, they said, well, now we want to take you into our court, the administrative court.
joe rogan
Oh, terrific.
They have their own court?
john mackey
They have their own court.
joe rogan
Don't you wish you had your own court?
Take you to Whole Foods court, motherfucker.
john mackey
I'll take the FTC to the Whole Foods court.
joe rogan
Right?
john mackey
Like the people's court.
You don't win in the FTC court.
You don't win in that court.
joe rogan
Well, how many people have won in that court?
john mackey
I think when I looked at it at that time, this back in 2007, I think 46 of the 48 previous cases, this is from memory, so I could be wrong, had lost.
joe rogan
They should go to court.
Someone should take them to court.
john mackey
But here's the thing.
I asked our attorney, so, okay, we're going to lose in this court, in their court.
Then what happens?
This is, well, then you appeal that back to the federal courts.
And then after that, if they want to, they would go to the Supreme Court if they'll take it.
I said, how much is it going to cost me to just fight them in their own courts?
They said, it's going to cost you $30 million in legal fees, not to mention a lot of executive time.
It's like, man, $30 million?
We know we're going to lose.
And then we're going to have to spend another $30 million to go to the appeals of beyond that.
The lawyers love it, by the way.
joe rogan
Of course.
john mackey
They want you to do it.
joe rogan
Like divorce lawyers.
john mackey
Yes, exactly.
joe rogan
They love it.
john mackey
That's how people fight.
joe rogan
You guys should not talk.
Don't talk this out.
john mackey
Don't try to work this out because he's going to try to steal your money.
He's going to try to steal that money from you.
joe rogan
He's a piece of shit.
Look at him.
Look at him!
john mackey
So again...
joe rogan
So what did you do?
You wound up settling?
john mackey
We ended up...
Yes.
We ended up...
They let the merger go through and we agreed to sell off a bunch of stores.
And that was the best we could do.
joe rogan
How many stores did you have to sell off?
john mackey
We put up about...
30 for sale.
I think that...
And we only about, I don't know, I think five or six.
We sold about five or six.
joe rogan
When someone is involved in that kind of a fucked up scenario where you bring them to FTC court where no one wins, if you do win, like ultimately in Supreme Court, they should take it out of the salary of the people that forced you into doing that.
It should be worth it for you to go to war.
john mackey
Those rich guys should make the government do that with all their power.
Yeah.
You know, if the rich guys are so powerful, how come we have such high tax rates?
joe rogan
Because you make a lot of money.
But don't you shield it?
Didn't Donald Trump pay like 700 bucks in taxes?
john mackey
I don't know what he paid in taxes because we never actually saw his...
We just heard what the New York Times said he paid, but we don't really know for sure because we never really saw the taxes.
joe rogan
Well, the New York Times would never lie.
unidentified
But...
john mackey
Of course not.
joe rogan
Isn't that funny that that's a funny thing to say now?
Boy, that used to be...
If you said that in 1980, people would agree with you.
john mackey
Depends on who you say it to today.
joe rogan
Well, there's a lot of dummies that think the New York Times would never lie today, but they've been caught lying, unfortunately.
There's a problem with journalism in particular today, and it's that it's not just journalism now.
It's a business that is sort of in a very fucked up place.
Where sensationalism is very important to the business model.
john mackey
Yeah, the click-throughs, the clickbaits.
joe rogan
It's very important.
john mackey
It's very important.
joe rogan
Nobody's buying physical copies anymore, so they can't just rely on subscriptions.
john mackey
Did you see that recent documentary, The Social Dilemma?
joe rogan
Yes, I did.
john mackey
That was kind of creepy.
joe rogan
I had Tristan Harris on the podcast a couple weeks ago.
john mackey
Yeah, really?
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's very disturbing.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Because you see how this all plays out.
And you're seeing it right now online with the election results.
john mackey
We are.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
Civil War.
It looks like we're heading to a Civil War.
joe rogan
Yeah.
And then you have the real wacky sections of both.
You have the QAnons on one side and the Antifas on the other side.
And like, ugh.
It's so nuts.
john mackey
It is crazy.
Crazy, crazy, crazy.
joe rogan
That Sidney Powell lady, she seems unhinged.
john mackey
We'll see if she can deliver the goods or not.
joe rogan
I'm very curious to see how this all pans out, but it just...
You know, it just seems like the most divided I can ever remember this country being.
john mackey
Definitely in my lifetime the most divided.
joe rogan
Which is exactly what they were talking about in The Social Dilemma.
They were literally saying that what's happening with these algorithms...
What's happening with these echo chambers that people are involved with in social media?
What's happening with the way it influences the mind to gravitate towards these things that upset people and to rile people up and get people more and more interested in these particularly polarizing subjects?
We're headed towards almost like a civil war.
john mackey
Of course, I think The Social Dilemma is a good movie and a lot to learn from, and I do think it overstates it.
In our book, Conscious Leadership, we talk about cultural intelligence in the book, particularly the very last part of the appendix, and we talk about how there are three major types of worldviews that exist in the United States that are clashing with each other.
The first one is more of a traditional worldview of heritage values that It might be traditional Christianity or traditional Judaism combined with belief in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, sort of very traditional values.
And then you have the modernist worldview, which is science, rationality, capitalism, success, getting ahead, and that's the second.
And now we have a progressive worldview that hasn't been around that long, but it's a third major worldview.
And I think statistically, we think about 30% of the population is in the traditional worldview, about 50% is in the modernist worldview, and about 20% is in the progressive worldview.
And all these worldviews are struggling with each other to dominate, to have their values become the law of the land.
And everybody must conform to their values because their values are correct.
So we think that's the essence of this cultural struggle going on.
And we argue in the book that there's a fourth we call post-progressivism.
Which basically recognizes all the values have good things about them and they have some bad things about them, right?
So they have dignities and disasters.
And if we're going to get through it, we need conscious leaders who will be able to take the best things about each one of these worldviews and integrate them together so that we can give each of the worldviews enough to feel like this is a society worth belonging to.
If we try to cram one set of values down everybody else's throats and force that into law, we're going to have a civil war because America's not going to stand for it.
joe rogan
Yeah, I like that perspective, that there are good things and bad things about these sides.
And that's one of the things we're talking about, like we're so polarized today.
john mackey
And something you were talking about with capitalism, because you were saying, hey, John, it's not perfect.
And capitalism is a sort of part of the modernistic worldview, and it's not perfect.
There are problems and challenges with it, but the dignities of it are tremendous, and we can't throw out the baby with the bathwater just because it's not perfect, because there is no perfect solution to any of these problems.
We're going to muddle our way through like we always do.
joe rogan
Now, when you look at the positive aspects of all these different schools of thought, and you look at progressivism, which is the one that is probably the most on the rise today, why is it the most on the rise?
Like, what do you think?
When you say you look at both sides of things...
john mackey
You might say that you can see each of these worldviews comes out of the previous worldview.
So if you go back...
200 years ago, 250 years ago, the modernist worldview was just being born.
The founding fathers of our country were early modernists, people like Franklin and Jefferson and Madison and Hamilton.
These were early modernists, but almost everybody else was a traditionalist.
But we created the foundation to create really the world's first modern society, which was the United States.
Now, progressivism, in a way, is a reaction to the...
Disasters of modernism, like modernism does have negative environmental impacts.
And so part of it is we have to solve those problems.
And so progressivism is partly solving that problem.
Things like racism and sexism and homophobia or whatever, these are also aspects that progressivism is reacting to, to say that this is not fair, this is not just.
So the really beautiful thing about progressivism is that it's striving to give dignity to all these different sort of marginalized people that were always, you know, used to get beat up when they were young, so to speak, in a more modernistic traditional society.
The problem is, is that when you begin to force your values on everybody else, then we begin to get a lot of blowback on that.
And that's true for progressivism as well.
It needs to harmonize with traditionalism and modernism and not treat those as the enemies that must be conquered.
joe rogan
The things that progressivism, the things that resonate with a lot of people is the uplifting of the impoverished.
The education in poor communities where traditionally the education has been substandard.
All these different things that I think, for whatever reason, Our government or our society has – we've erred.
There's a problem in not dealing with those issues.
john mackey
So I would take a little different interpretation.
Actually, modernism is dealing with it.
Modernism has been lifting humanity up, as I argued earlier in this talk.
joe rogan
Okay, but it's not – But it's not perfect.
Done a great job of it.
john mackey
It's actually done a very good job, but it hasn't finished the job.
So progressivism is correct to recognize that there's some people being left out, that the rising tide has not lifted all the boats.
What about those that are being left behind?
What about them?
They're absolutely right.
We need to take care of them.
We need to find solutions to their problems.
But it's not by throwing modernism out.
It's by taking modernism and then And then adding on a greater sensitivity for those who are downtrodden, who have bad educational systems.
joe rogan
This is where you can take some of the good aspects of progressive thinking.
unidentified
Exactly.
joe rogan
These are the aspects that I identify with.
john mackey
As do I. Yeah.
joe rogan
So the ideas of progressivism when it comes to dealing with impoverished communities, dealing with crime-ridden communities, Right.
john mackey
Exactly.
joe rogan
Yeah, that – if you take away that, once that gets – starts getting implemented on a wide scale, then a lot of the arguments against capitalism will start to fade.
john mackey
Hence, conscious capitalism.
joe rogan
Is that in your book right here?
john mackey
Yes, exactly.
That's exactly what it's about.
joe rogan
Right here by John Mackey?
Available on Amazon.
john mackey
And at Whole Foods.
joe rogan
You can get it at Whole Foods?
john mackey
Probably Barnes& Noble too.
unidentified
I'm sure.
joe rogan
Dealing with this debate and dealing with this argument, has...
Anyone, or just having these conversations over long periods of time, like I know you have, has this shaped your perspective in any way?
Like, having to formulate these very clear arguments?
john mackey
Of course.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
I mean...
You can't really think clearly, at least I think dialectically, Joe.
I need pushback.
I need a devil's advocate because...
joe rogan
I'm always around, bro.
john mackey
Okay.
Well, apparently you're not always around.
You travel a lot.
joe rogan
I haven't been traveling that much.
unidentified
But you need a real devil's advocate, not a knucklehead.
john mackey
Well, your ideas need to stand the test of being struggled with.
joe rogan
Right.
That's a real problem with people that don't want to hear the other perspective.
john mackey
That's your social dilemma issue.
When we get stuck in an echo chamber, if you're a traditionalist and you only watch Fox News, for example, then you're not going to get a wider perspective.
But if you're progressive and you only read the New York Times and watch...
CNN and MSNBC may not be getting a wider perspective either.
We need to expose ourselves to the wider context of information that's out there.
joe rogan
That is a philosophy that I think should be taught in school that is as important as mathematics and history.
There's a thing about challenging ideas and looking at your own ideas In an objective way, I think one of the things that I've worked very hard at doing is not being married to any of the ideas that I have in my head.
They're not mine, they're an idea.
And even though I've espoused these ideas, even though I've defended these ideas, if something comes along that shows me that this idea is flawed or inaccurate, I have made a very...
A very conscious, positive effort to abandon those ideas.
So do I. Or re-examine them.
john mackey
I've got a metaphor for it that I'm happy to loan it to you.
You can have it too.
It's like, ideas are like, I've got clothes on here today, but they're not who I am.
I'm just wearing them today.
joe rogan
Right.
john mackey
And I'll put these aside and I'll wear different clothes tomorrow.
The clothes are not me.
And the ideas and beliefs I have are not me either.
When they don't fit any longer, I set them aside and I get new clothes that fit better.
And that's a very liberating way to think about your beliefs and your ideas because otherwise, if you identify yourself with what you believe, that means if somebody criticizes one of your beliefs, many people take it as a personal attack.
That somehow they're saying, I don't have worth because they disagree with my views.
No, they're just saying they don't like the clothes that you're wearing, but that's not who you are.
So I'm not my Belize.
They are just what I'm wearing for right now.
joe rogan
That's an interesting way of looking at it.
And I think there is a real problem with people looking at people's ideas and judging them and their value as a human being based on those ideas.
But we do it because most people are married to their ideas.
And we're taught to defend our ideas to the death.
These ideas are core to who you are as a person.
They're core to how you identify, how you think of yourself.
john mackey
It's like the Matrix.
You've got to free your mind.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
Free your mind.
joe rogan
Well, it's very freeing in being able to recognize you're wrong and say you're wrong.
It's very freeing.
unidentified
It is.
joe rogan
And we resist it.
But when you resist it and you know you're wrong, you feel like a loser.
Like inside your head, you know you're full of shit.
john mackey
I don't experience it that way.
So one of the things I try to do as CEO of Whole Foods Market is I always try to admit my mistakes in a very public way because I feel like that helps everybody else admit their own mistakes.
And I'll just say, you know, I was wrong about that.
I made a mistake.
I'm sorry about that.
Because then if you admit you made a mistake, you can learn from it.
You don't have to make the same mistake again.
And it also gives everybody permission.
Hey, if John is going to admit his mistakes, then I can admit my mistakes too.
And you have a much more open dialogue with people.
Nobody's seen as infallible, as all-knowing, as always right, never wrong.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's a great philosophy.
It's very important.
I mean, nobody wants a dictator that they have to walk on eggshells around and, you know, they have to pretend that this person is only making good decisions when you think that...
I mean, that's the argument against Donald Trump, right?
I mean, never says he's wrong, never admits he's wrong, doesn't show any empathy.
john mackey
I'm not going to defend Trump.
How dare you?
I will merely say that which presidents in our lifetime ever admit they made any mistakes?
That's just not something I see politicians do very often.
joe rogan
Well, Governor Newsom made a mistake when he went to that restaurant and he admitted it when he got busted.
john mackey
Well, only when he got busted and he couldn't deny your own eyes.
Who are you going to believe?
What I say are your own eyes.
joe rogan
Well, then he lied, though.
He said he was outside.
john mackey
Right.
He did.
joe rogan
He didn't anticipate photos coming out after he gave that apology speech.
john mackey
And he didn't know how many people were going to be there.
And he says, I should have just turned around right then and there.
joe rogan
Like, bitch, you knew who was going to be there.
john mackey
Who knows?
joe rogan
It's his buddy.
john mackey
I guess when you're caught red-handed, it's hard to continue to...
joe rogan
Well, look, I'm not the governor, but if someone says...
john mackey
Joe Rogan for governor!
I think that's a great idea.
joe rogan
I like our governor.
I like Governor Abbott.
john mackey
I like Governor Abbott, too.
joe rogan
When you go to a party, if someone says, we're going to have a party over my house, during times of COVID, I'd be like, how many people are going to be there?
That'd be one of the first questions I ask.
I don't want to go to a party where there's 500 people and I don't know anybody.
john mackey
No, of course not.
joe rogan
And breathe in everybody's funky air.
I would ask that.
I'm not even the governor.
I'm not even telling people you have to close their businesses.
And I would ask that.
Forget about looking hypocritical.
Just for my own health.
john mackey
The Newsom example, though, is kind of a personal example.
We always are quick to point out hypocrisy in people.
But I'm saying that very seldom do you ever see a politician or a president or a senator or a governor admit they made a policy mistake.
So you don't see Governor Cuomo in New York saying that...
Gosh, I should never send those people to the nursing homes.
I really made a mistake on that.
joe rogan
Good point.
john mackey
We don't see the obvious mistakes ever admitted.
joe rogan
Don't you think that in that situation there would be a legal problem?
Because if he did admit that that's a mistake publicly, they would probably sue the shit out of him.
john mackey
They could still sue him whether he admitted it or not.
joe rogan
Yes, but they would have the evidence.
They would have his own testimony publicly that he made a mistake.
You would not be able to argue against that.
I think we both agree.
Clearly he made a mistake.
That's a giant mistake and it's responsible for thousands of deaths.
I mean, it's hard to argue that.
You take people that are COVID positive, you send them to a nursing home where folks are older and their immune systems are compromised, and a lot of them die.
I mean, I don't know what number died, but I know that there have been reports in places where there have been COVID deaths where an enormous percentage of them were in nursing homes, like more than 20%.
john mackey
Oh, no, no, Joe.
I think it's over 50% in the United States.
You're close to it.
God.
And I mean, 95% have comorbidities, right?
joe rogan
Can you imagine being in that situation where you're an older person and you're just like trying to ride out your last days and the governor sends sick people back to the nursing home and you realize that Mary down the hall is coughing up a fucking storm now?
john mackey
I mean...
We're way out of where I'm kind of a little bit out of my comfort zone.
joe rogan
That's what I like to do to people.
john mackey
I know.
But we don't know what really what the governor might have been thinking.
I believe his intentions were probably good.
He was very worried they were going to have too many cases.
They weren't going to have enough hospital beds for it.
joe rogan
No, I'm sure.
john mackey
It's probably a mistake, but it was made with good intentions.
And I don't think it was made with bad intentions to hurt people.
joe rogan
I don't think so either.
I don't think he did it to try to kill old people.
john mackey
Exactly.
joe rogan
I think he just made an error.
john mackey
He was actually trying to save lives.
He just made a mistake.
And people make mistakes.
joe rogan
When you're in a situation like that where there's not much you can do, when you are stuck...
I was talking to a nurse and she was explaining to me, she's a nurse in a COVID ward, and she was explaining to me the decisions that they have to make.
She's like, during the peak when all the beds were full, she's like, we really were in situations where we're like, we have to send this person home and they're going to die.
And there's no room for new people to come in, so we literally have to take people that are terminal.
john mackey
Triage.
joe rogan
Yeah.
There's not much you can do.
And I go, well, how do you protect their family from getting it?
She's like, you can't.
I'm like, oh my god.
So you're sending people who are dying of COVID home, and they were likely going to infect their family.
You tell their family, take all the precautions they can, but if you have to do it, you have to do it.
That's when you're in a situation where there's no good answers.
john mackey
That's not a win-win.
joe rogan
Right.
That's not a win-win-win either.
john mackey
No.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's hugely unfortunate, but it's also unprecedented, right?
Like when Mario Cuomo became governor, or Andrew Cuomo, rather, became governor, he didn't think that this was something that he was going to have to encounter.
He probably had strategies in play for economic growth, for, you know, dealing with law enforcement, all these different problems that a governor would face.
Taxes, all these different things.
And he probably never thought, well, there might be a thing that kills all these old people if I send them back to nursing homes.
john mackey
I'm sure there was not a plan for it.
joe rogan
No.
Well, that's one thing about this pandemic.
john mackey
That's why I never want to be governor, Joe.
joe rogan
Please don't.
Everybody will hate you.
I think they hate you when you became successful with whole paycheck.
john mackey
Wait till I'm governor?
joe rogan
Yeah, oh my god.
And then if you become president, it's even worse.
Literally half the country hates you.
john mackey
Look how many people are trying to kill you.
As far as I know, I don't have anybody trying to kill me.
joe rogan
Congratulations.
It's probably like one butcher is thinking this motherfucker.
No, I'm just kidding.
Your time doing this, your time spent as a leader, do you understand better the pitfalls of these leaders because of the fact that you've been a leader of a corporation for a long time?
john mackey
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
You just have a lot of responsibility.
And if you're a leader, you're also being paid to make good decisions.
And If you make good decisions, a lot of people benefit, and if you make bad decisions, a lot of people might suffer.
So you've got to have a high batting average here, Joe.
You're going to make a few mistakes, but you make those mistakes hopefully at a smaller level, not at the biggest level.
And I've made plenty of mistakes at Whole Foods, and one of the reasons I've been successful is I've just learned from a lot of my mistakes.
As I say, I have a lot of scars, but they've made me better, too.
joe rogan
Now, when you do have these very strong ethics and morals that you operate your company by, but you're also incentivized by profit, do you make a conscious effort to explain or to espouse these ideas to the people that are working for you and working with you?
unidentified
Absolutely.
john mackey
We do.
Our quality standards, our core values, our higher purpose, these are all...
We actually have a program in Whole Foods now called Cultural Champions, where people go through a program and get certified to be a cultural champion.
And it's very important because, I mean, we have 100,000 people working for Whole Foods, and every year we're hiring 10,000 to 20,000 new people.
Exactly.
And so they're not going to know the purpose.
They're not going to know the core values.
They're not going to know...
What the company's about or even they're not going to know the history.
You have to help, you have to continually educate and teach people who you are, what you stand for, or otherwise it's going to disappear.
joe rogan
One thing you guys have done, and I don't know how you did it, a lot of people there are friendly.
How have you done that?
In Boulder, I found people to be friendly.
I found people to be friendly in Park City, Utah.
I found people to be friendly in Los Angeles, in the Valley, in the city.
You've got a lot of friendly employees.
Is this something that's been a core tenant of the business?
john mackey
It is.
It's one of our core values.
Recall it.
Team member growth and happiness.
We actually want our people working for us to be happy.
And I'll tell you what I've learned.
There's two things that people want at work above all else.
I mean, they want to earn a paycheck, too.
But besides, if you get the money right, there's two things that people want which will make them long-term committed to your organization.
The first one is everybody wants to have a sense of purpose.
They want to feel like their work It's actually contributing.
They're not just making widgets.
They're doing something that's actually creating value for other people.
Purpose matters.
And secondly, they want to feel like somebody gives a shit about them, that they're cared for.
And if you do those two things, if you give people purpose and love, then you're giving them probably the two things they most desire in life is purpose and love.
And we try to do that at Whole Foods.
And to the degree people are friendly, it's partly because they're experiencing both of those or at least one of them.
joe rogan
What's great about that to me is that because your business has been so successful and it's such a popular spot for people and people are very aware that it's like that.
My hope is that this is going to be contagious, and that other businesses are going to go, you know, we're going to follow the Whole Foods model, and we are going to create an environment where it's family, people are loved, they're cared for, and then the people that come there, we want them to be appreciated.
We want everybody who works for us to be happy that they have a job here, feel like they belong, feel like they're doing something good.
john mackey
I absolutely agree.
The second chapter of our book, Conscious Leadership, is Lead with Love.
Love is something that we don't think about in our corporations.
And we have these sort of hyper-competitive models, mental models about the way the world works.
There are war metaphors.
Kill or be killed.
Let's go to the war room.
Let's create our campaign.
Let's go motivate the troops.
We're using war metaphors or we're using...
Darwinian metaphors, this is survival of the fittest.
It's a jungle out there.
Only the paranoid survive.
Or they are sports metaphors, where we're winners, losers, and winning isn't everything.
It's the only thing.
We've got this idea of hyper-competition.
And when you're at war, there really isn't any place for love.
I mean, love, check it at the door, because we've got a war to fight after that.
So do that in your personal life.
And love, though, I don't mean romantic love.
I don't mean sexual love.
I mean the love that you feel towards the people you're working with, the people that you're serving, your customers.
That's part of the most important part of being a human being.
We have to bring that part with us to work.
It can't hide out in the closet.
We have to be able to connect with people.
And that's one of the great things that we need to have happen in corporations.
If you're asking, how can we make corporations better?
Cindy Powell's talking about release the Kraken.
Is that what she said?
That's what she's been saying.
I would say, let's release love.
Let's let love out of the closet.
Let's let love be what we build our organizations around.
It's so much better way to live.
joe rogan
The only argument I would say against that would be that you don't love your competitors.
You're out there to kick their ass, right?
If you're playing on a team and you're supposed to go up against another team, you want to be as amped up, as aggressive, as motivated, and as focused on victory as possible.
That's why so many corporations adopt these sports metaphors, right?
john mackey
Yeah, but the reality is that's...
It's not that competition is not part of corporations or business.
It is.
Is it the main part?
It actually isn't.
The main part is about creating value for customers.
That's why the business exists.
Competitors...
I never hated any of my competitors.
I mean, I always saw my competitors as people that could teach me things, things they were doing better than Whole Foods was doing.
Like, one of the best competitors Whole Foods competes against anywhere in the whole world is HEB here in Texas.
Very, very good competitor.
And we've learned a lot from HEB. They've made us better as a company.
What did you learn from HEB? What have we learned from HEB? If I was to be specific about...
joe rogan
How to hire sketchy late-night counter people?
john mackey
No.
Well, HEB opened up a concept called Central Market.
And that was back in the early 1990s.
And it took a lot of Whole Foods' ideas and expanded them, made them bigger stores.
So one thing I learned from HEB was to do bigger stores.
And we started getting progressively bigger stores.
joe rogan
Those Central Market joints are pretty nice.
john mackey
They are.
They're a worthy competitor.
And so our competitors can be our allies in the sense that they help us improve.
If you don't have a good competitor, then you're not going to be pushed.
Take one of my favorite sports, tennis.
We happen to be blessed with possibly the three greatest tennis players of all time playing at the same exact time.
Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, and Novik Zivokovic.
And 20, 20, and 18 Masters Grand Slam Championships.
Those three guys are the top three of all time in Grand Slam Championships.
If they didn't have the other two, they wouldn't be the same player they turned out to be.
Because that pushed them to get better and better and better.
And by the way, that is the beauty of capitalism versus socialism.
There is competition.
There is innovation that's occurring that you have to stay on top of.
You have to incorporate yourself, and then you have to challenge to out-innovate the other people to stay ahead, so to speak.
And socialism doesn't have that incentive to innovate, and that's why it stagnates in the long run.
So competition's part of business.
I don't want to say it's not there.
It's just not the most important part.
It shouldn't dominate everything else.
It has its place.
But it shouldn't be the be-all reality of business.
joe rogan
End-all, be-all.
john mackey
Yeah, end-all, be-all.
joe rogan
I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you in terms of competition.
Obviously, I come from a martial arts background, and that's everything.
If you don't have people in the gym that are better than you, you will not get better.
You don't want to be the man.
You want to be surrounded by other people that are better than you.
It's almost always the best way to improve and grow because you have a metric to gauge yourself by.
john mackey
You can compare against them and you also can study them.
Yes.
How are they doing that?
How are they doing that sidekick that keeps hitting me?
joe rogan
Well, one of the things they show you, one of the beautiful things about martial arts, it's always been the case, martial artists are very open.
john mackey
Collaborative?
joe rogan
Yes, very collaborative.
Because that's taught, like, from the beginning, particularly in jujitsu.
In jiu-jitsu, there's no secrets.
Everyone is trying to show you what they're doing.
One of my best friends is Eddie Bravo, who's a world-renowned jiu-jitsu instructor and competitor.
And he's like, I am teaching my students how to beat me.
He goes, I'm getting these younger, faster, stronger people, and I'm showing them all my tricks.
And that makes me stay one step ahead.
And this is the philosophy of martial arts.
You never want to have no competition.
That's a terrible place to be.
john mackey
It's the philosophy of excellence.
And excellence is a big part of corporations, and it's a big part of capitalism.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's a big part of everything.
But when you actually go to a competition, you want to smash that person.
You don't want to love them.
john mackey
Yeah, but you may be loving them after the competition.
unidentified
Yes.
john mackey
Might be your best friend.
unidentified
Sure.
john mackey
I mean, it's a friendly competition.
You're not literally trying to kill them.
joe rogan
Right.
john mackey
You're not really wanting for them to crack their head and they never get up again.
joe rogan
This is a concept, this concept that we're describing, whether it applies to martial arts or to business, that… A socialist would have a very difficult time grasping that you can both be loving and ultra competitive and that these things are not mutually exclusive and in fact they help.
It helps.
john mackey
They are yin and yang.
They work well together.
joe rogan
So this is, if I'm going to put words in your mouth, this is probably one of the things that frustrates you the most about these ideas, these progressive ideas, is that when they apply them to business, they don't really understand business.
john mackey
They don't work.
joe rogan
Yes.
john mackey
They don't work.
That's the problem.
And that is the disaster of progressivism.
joe rogan
You mean the people don't work or the ideas don't work?
john mackey
The ideas don't work.
But the ideas are...
A great example is collective agriculture.
We're going to put everybody...
We're not going to do individual farming plots.
We're going to...
China almost put it...
Starved itself to death.
And we had millions and millions of people die from starvation by collectivizing the agriculture, even though the Soviet Union had already failed to do it.
So China did it and they forced all the people to collectivize their agriculture and the result was a terrible idea because they didn't have the incentives that were there any longer to try to optimize their production.
And as a result, mass starvation occurred until China wised up.
Finally, some communists said, let's let them own at least a small little plot themselves, that they get to keep what they produce for their families.
And that proved to be so productive, it gradually took over the entire agriculture.
They went back to capitalism and agriculture in China.
unidentified
So...
joe rogan
Wasn't that the issue with the colonists as well in America?
When they first started growing wheat, they combined all their food together.
And then they realized, like, hey, this is not working.
Like, we have to make people earn their own.
john mackey
You know, I think one of the reasons this idea will always be there, Joe, is that's how we operate our families.
unidentified
Right.
john mackey
When we're growing up, we're just small kids.
The family shares, right?
And you're...
And then we ask when we get older, why can't we make the whole society like the family?
And the answer is because it's too damn big to do it that way.
And when you try to do it that way, you get the slackers and the people who don't want to work being parasites on the others.
And you end up with the free rider problem.
And ultimately, that's the problem with socialism is a free rider problem that they've never been able to solve for except through coercion.
And putting people in labor camps and things like that.
Turn them into slaves.
So they can't solve that problem except by sort of super coercion.
And that's why it doesn't work.
Why it's never going to work.
And why capitalism with all its flaws is a system that does work.
That we can make better.
We can make more conscious.
We can do it better than we're doing it today.
joe rogan
What do you think about the concept of universal basic income?
john mackey
Yeah, I, you know, no.
I mean, I don't think that's a good idea.
joe rogan
But when you have a situation like a pandemic, where so many people, through no fault of their own, are being forced out of work, they cannot work.
john mackey
That's a temporary situation.
joe rogan
But isn't that a good argument for universal basic income, at least for a temporary situation?
john mackey
Well, when people are sick, they need to be taken care of.
When they're healthy, they don't need to be taken care of.
They need to stand on their own two feet.
joe rogan
Right, but when you have a situation where they can't stand on their own two feet because they're literally not allowed to work, like California.
I mean, California, they're right now shutting down restaurants that serve outside.
john mackey
Yeah, well, I mean...
The alternative is not to shut down the economy.
joe rogan
No, listen, I agree.
But there's a lot of people that get really hysterical about this, and they think this is the only way we're going to save people.
There's a lot of people out there with terrible health, and they think that what we need to do is shut everything down, and that's the only way we're going to be safe.
I was reading this woman's Twitter the other day.
Someone said something ridiculous, and I'm like, oh my god, I need to check this person out.
And they were talking about, hey, I am ready to lock everything down for five weeks.
I don't go outside.
I stay away from everybody.
I order my groceries delivered.
I'm ready to lock down for five weeks.
I'm like, this is the most simplistic and individual perception of this problem.
Everyone should do what you're capable of doing.
Most people can't do this if they have a fucking business.
Like, they can't.
I'm ready to lock down for five weeks.
Well, congratulations to you.
But some guy who runs some whatever, figure out whatever store it is or whatever kind of business, they need to be there in order to be open.
To stay alive.
There's no other way to keep that business alive.
They have rent.
They have overhead.
They have employees.
john mackey
Do you know the history of the 1918-1919 influenza epidemic?
That's the worst pandemic that we know of in our modern history, and that's only 100 years ago.
And...
50 million people died worldwide.
I mean, how many people died worldwide in COVID? A couple million at this point.
And the population was four times greater than.
They didn't shut anything down back then.
joe rogan
What do you mean the population was four times greater than?
john mackey
It was four times greater now than then.
It was 25%.
It was 1.8 billion people back 100 years ago across the world.
joe rogan
So you could scale that up pretty largely.
john mackey
Yeah, exactly.
And that was the killer that didn't just take people with comorbidities.
It took children.
It took healthy adults.
It was nondiscriminatory disease.
And we took precautions.
People, you know, social distanced.
But at the end of the day, The economy did not shut down.
Humanity went on with their lives.
And this is not nearly the same type of pandemic that we had back then.
It's very interesting, the time that we live in, the reaction that we're having today to COVID being so very different than the reaction we had to the influenza epidemic of 1918 and 1919, which was far more destructive.
I don't know.
It's just food for thought.
It's very interesting.
joe rogan
Well, what was the difference?
What's the difference in the reaction of today versus the reaction from 1918?
john mackey
Their action back then was individual responsibility to do what was necessary to protect yourself and your family.
But other than that, life went on.
And there was no governmental responsibility.
Not nearly the same level of...
joe rogan
They had mask mandates though, didn't they?
john mackey
If you go back and read about it, not any kind of national type of mask mandate.
Certain small communities did it.
It was just all so much smaller in scale.
joe rogan
I didn't even know they wore masks.
We've been looking at it because we've been looking at a lot of photos from back in the day.
It's kind of crazy to see.
john mackey
Because they did.
I mean, people were scared and they wanted to protect themselves and their family and they did what they thought was necessary.
Yeah.
It's just interesting how much different we're reacting to this one, to me.
And we are doing great, great harm.
And we don't see the harm that we're doing.
We don't see the small businesses failing, the suicide rates going up, the domestic violence, the isolation, the mental...
Or emotional health problems people have by not being able to connect with each other, not being able to physically touch.
The kids, they're missing out in school and in person.
Speaking as a man who was once a little boy, Little boys need to play.
They also need to connect.
They can't just watch a screen.
They need to be more interactive.
joe rogan
Two kids in school right now, and it's soul-sucking watching them stare at a laptop.
And then I sat in, in my daughter's room once, and watched the teacher teach the class, and Jesus Christ, this lady could have not been less motivated.
It was horrible to watch.
Motivating or motivated.
They're lazy.
john mackey
Well, hopefully these vaccinations are going to be as effective as they're reporting and will not have side effects, and that a year from now, this will be in the rearview mirror.
joe rogan
Are you going to wait?
Are you going to dive right in?
What if Jeff Bezos calls you up and says, Hey, John, got the vaccine right here, buddy.
Want to come over?
john mackey
You know, I haven't decided yet.
I've had to do four COVID tests, including one today to get in.
joe rogan
You only had four?
john mackey
How many have you had?
joe rogan
Oh, my God.
I don't even know.
john mackey
Well, you do it every time you come in here, I guess, right?
joe rogan
We were trying to figure it out.
I remember I counted like 50-something of them.
john mackey
You've done over 50 tests?
joe rogan
Oh, way more than that.
john mackey
So you'll be an early adapter of the vaccination just so you don't have to do the damn test anymore.
joe rogan
I want to wait and see what's going on.
But if it's proven that it doesn't have any side effects, then how the fuck are you going to do that?
john mackey
It might take a few years to know that for sure.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
Can you wait?
joe rogan
I don't know, man.
john mackey
I'm kind of a vaccination guy, to be honest.
Oh, I am as well.
I've had all the vaccinations.
joe rogan
I have as well.
You can imagine.
Here's the thing about vaccines, man.
If you even have a conversation about vaccines, people get their hackles up.
unidentified
Oh!
joe rogan
What are you about to say?
What are you saying?
Are you an anti-vaxxer?
Not an anti-vaxxer by any stretch of the imagination.
I've been vaccinated.
My children have been vaccinated.
I believe in vaccines.
I believe vaccines are the reason why we don't have smallpox, why we don't have polio.
When I hear about measles cases rising, I get angry because these fucking hippies don't want to vaccinate their kids, and they send them to school with other people's kids, and these people get fucking measles.
And for adults, it's dangerous.
Look, measles is a creepy disease.
I believe in vaccines.
However, I believe that this is a new thing.
john mackey
Did you have measles?
joe rogan
I don't think I ever got measles.
john mackey
Because I'm older than you.
I had measles.
I don't know if I had it.
I had all those diseases as a kid because there were no vaccines.
I had chickenpox.
I had measles.
I had almost all that stuff.
I mean, when I was a kid, there was no polio vaccination.
joe rogan
Oh my god.
john mackey
I know.
So when polio was running around in the community, they'd close the swimming pools down.
That's when my mother would not let us go out and play for a while.
joe rogan
Polio is an excellent example of why vaccines are so important.
john mackey
Exactly.
joe rogan
Because it was a terrifying disease that destroyed people, and permanently.
john mackey
I know.
joe rogan
And when I was a kid, when someone had chicken pox, they would bring kids to that person's house so you would get chicken pox.
Because if you get chicken pox as a young kid, it's better than if you get chicken pox as an adult.
I do not know why, but they would encourage kids to get chicken pox so you build up an immunity test.
john mackey
Yeah, my wife had shingles recently, so I went and got a shingles vaccination.
joe rogan
Oh, my goodness.
Yeah, that's supposed to be horrible.
john mackey
That's really painful stuff, right?
It was horrible.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Listen, I believe in vaccines, but I also believe that...
john mackey
You're not going to be a guinea pig.
joe rogan
No.
Well, there's people that have already done that.
There's brave folks that have already decided to get shot up.
john mackey
Yeah, but you want your friends to do it, and you want your friends to say, I did it, and I feel fine.
Everything's great.
joe rogan
No, I don't want that either.
john mackey
What do you want?
joe rogan
I want them to assure me that it's not going to be devastating in terms of the side effects.
I would hate to have encouraged people to take something and then find out two years from now that there's some residual side effect that's devastating, some neurological thing.
john mackey
Your liver is starting to fail.
joe rogan
Who knows what it could be?
And the way it's been described to me, that won't be the case.
The way it's been described to me by doctors, that's an unfound fear.
Because of what this is, a messenger RNA vaccine, that this is not the type of vaccine that you...
It's just essentially delivering your body this sort of message that encoded with a common cold virus, that what it does is it makes your body develop the proteins to fight off the disease.
john mackey
It sounds like these are vaccination breakthroughs that might transform vaccinations in the future.
I hope so.
joe rogan
Listen, I hope so, too.
Look, I think modern medicine is amazing.
I do worry about stuff, though.
Look, I don't want to make a mistake, and I don't think you do either.
john mackey
I already admitted to making lots of mistakes, but this is not one I want to add to my repertoire.
joe rogan
When it comes to this virus, though, it's so difficult to be confident one way or another.
Like if it was a virus that just, you go, oh, you'll survive, 99 point whatever percent of people survive, you're gonna be fine.
There's people that are these, this is what gets me, these long haulers.
COVID long haulers who have serious...
There's a guy named Cody Garbrandt.
He's a former Bantamweight champion of the UFC. He got COVID in August.
He's a young stud.
He's a healthy guy.
Like a top flight mixed martial arts fighter.
And he has had blood clots.
He's had some serious problems and fatigue.
And still bothering him to this day.
He was supposed to compete last weekend.
Just this past weekend.
He's supposed to fight for the flyweight title, and he couldn't make the card.
So they got a replacement for him, but it's because of COVID. If you want to look at, like, young, healthy people, that is one of the best examples you're ever going to get of a young, healthy person.
He's a professional cage fighter.
I mean, he's really fucking healthy.
But COVID has done a number on him.
Like, he's got, like, some pretty serious issues.
john mackey
Yeah, and certainly I don't want to get COVID myself.
But the reality is pretty much you could have anecdotes for any type of disease of somebody that had a bad reaction to that disease.
joe rogan
Yeah, but that's a rare one.
Right?
Blood clots and the stuff that people are fatigued months and months later for a coronavirus, it's unusual.
And that's the problem is that this disease has so many unknowns to it.
There's so many mysteries.
So many people get it and they don't even know they had it.
john mackey
So it seems now that mono, which a lot of people get when they're teenagers, It turns out that that's connected to Epstein-Barr.
So I know people that had mono when they were kids or teenagers.
And now, as adults, they have this Epstein-Barr, which is attacking their thyroid.
So that virus never went away.
It's still there.
It's still affecting them.
And it's the reality of existence.
There are all these viruses out there.
I mean, like I think a gallon of seawater has 10 billion viruses in it.
I mean, we live in a universe of viruses.
Ten billion?
Yeah.
joe rogan
In a gallon?
john mackey
I think it's even less than a gallon.
Isn't that extraordinary?
Viruses are real little.
Those mass people wear those viruses, you know, unless you got the N95s and plexiglass, chances are that little piece of cloth is not really keeping the virus out.
joe rogan
That's one of the things that freaks me out.
Like when people dive in a lake somewhere and they get some brain-eating amoeba.
jamie vernon
It's a surface drop of seawater.
joe rogan
A surface drop?
john mackey
One drop's got 10 billion?
jamie vernon
10 million.
john mackey
10 million.
unidentified
Well, I guess maybe a gallon might have 10 billion if you do the math.
john mackey
That's a lot of viruses, so don't be drinking that seawater.
joe rogan
A drop!
10 million for a fucking drop?
What do you do when you get a mouthful of seawater?
john mackey
Here's the good news.
We deal with viruses.
We've got amazing immune systems and we've been co-evolving with viruses for hundreds of thousands of years.
And guess what?
We're co-evolving with COVID now.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Well, this has been my frustration the entire time is that there's been no discussion about strengthening your immune system.
There's legitimate strategies including eating healthy foods, right?
I mean, there's legitimate strategies for keeping your body healthy and strong and keeping your immune system strong.
john mackey
Absolutely.
I mean, it's interesting, Joe, because I've watched my friends during the eight or nine months we've been dealing with this stuff.
Maybe almost, yeah, nine months.
They tended to go one of two directions.
One was to say, you know what?
I'm going to get this.
I'm locked down.
I'm going to get super healthy.
I'm going to eat right.
I'm going to exercise.
I'm going to get enough sleep.
I'm going to stop taking as many toxins.
And they got healthier.
They lost weight.
Their immune system got strong.
And I had other friends.
They were isolated.
They felt lonely.
Their consumption of alcohol went way up, for example.
And they gained weight.
And their immune system is less strong.
So humans respond differently to stress like this.
I went the route of saying, my best chance to hold off COVID is to get my immune system as strong as possible.
I went that route.
joe rogan
Yeah, well that's the right route to go.
That's the route you better go if you own Whole Foods.
john mackey
Yeah, I always say that it won't be good for my business if I die of a heart attack.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Right?
john mackey
At least not for another 25 or 30 years.
joe rogan
You kind of have to be healthy.
john mackey
There'll be a lot of people that will secretly laugh if I do croak from something like that.
It's like, see, a lifetime of eating all that healthy food, and he died at a young age.
joe rogan
Do you practice what you preach?
Are you a healthy eater, or do you have, like, a few bad habits?
john mackey
I don't think I have any bad habits.
None?
I don't think I have any bad habits, but I do occasionally indulge myself.
What do you indulge with?
You said the habit.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
What do you indulge with?
john mackey
Probably.
I mean, I occasionally might have a bowl of coconut ice cream.
joe rogan
That's it?
Coconut ice cream?
That's how you go crazy?
john mackey
I didn't say go crazy.
I said indulge myself.
But in general, I mean, I'm 100% plant-based guy, and I eat lots of fruits.
joe rogan
Oh, that's why you give me that fake cheese.
You're one of those.
john mackey
It's not fake cheese.
It's almond cheese.
joe rogan
How are you going to call it cheese?
Cheese is a dairy product.
john mackey
Who says?
joe rogan
I do.
john mackey
Okay, well then I'll yield.
joe rogan
It's been forever.
Cheese has been a dairy product.
john mackey
There's cheese that's made from dairy cows.
What about sheep cheese or goat cheese?
joe rogan
Yeah, it's still animals from milk.
It's coming from milk.
john mackey
Okay, it's coming from animals and this is almond cheese coming from almonds.
joe rogan
Yeah, but that's like almond water or almond milk.
Almond milk is not milk.
john mackey
It's almond milk.
joe rogan
No, it's some weird shit you're doing with water and almonds.
It has nothing to do with milk.
There's no tits on almonds.
Come on, bro.
john mackey
I think you can, if you look it up in the dictionary, you will not see cheese saying it must have tits to be cheese.
joe rogan
No, but it's a milk product.
You need to come up with a new name.
john mackey
I'm happy for it to come up with a different name.
joe rogan
Yeah, someone needs to come up with a better name.
john mackey
I don't believe in the word police.
Language evolves sort of organically, so to speak.
New words get added all the time.
joe rogan
Right.
john mackey
And I don't believe in the police that are trying to say that word can't be said that way.
joe rogan
I understand.
So if you're a full plant-based guy, you don't eat any meat at all?
john mackey
No.
joe rogan
Even when you're drunk?
john mackey
No.
joe rogan
He hesitated.
That's what people do.
john mackey
Well, if I'm really drunk, I may not remember.
joe rogan
Well, you know, that's the thing.
They say that like 84% of vegans eat meat when they're drunk.
john mackey
Yeah.
Did you ever hear the one?
joe rogan
I made that number up.
john mackey
I know that 93.6% of the people make up their own statistics.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I think it's 100%.
The thing about plant-based diets is you've got to really make sure that you're supplementing correctly, right?
You have to make sure that you have a good, healthy supply of B12 and all your different amino acids.
john mackey
I think B12 is the only one you really have to worry about.
joe rogan
The only one?
What about amino acids?
What about proteins?
john mackey
You ever heard anybody being deficient in protein that's not also calorie deficient?
joe rogan
Well, by deficient, meaning the reaction to their body, are their bodies optimized?
I would say no.
Yeah.
I mean, yes, I have seen it.
Because people, they lose body mass, they lose muscle mass, they lose strength and vitality.
And I think you probably know that muscle mass and body mass strength is directly connected to longevity.
john mackey
You have to have enough protein so your body can repair itself, so that if you're lifting weights, you're going to grow muscles.
You have to have adequate protein stores.
But the extra protein, your body has to then go through complicated reactions to convert that into fuel, which actually puts the stress on the kidneys.
On average, Americans eat about twice as much protein as they actually need.
joe rogan
You're talking about glucogenesis?
Like when you're taking protein and converting it into sugar?
That's damaging to the kidneys?
Has there been real evidence that shows that?
john mackey
You can do a search on it.
joe rogan
Yeah, I have.
I don't think there is.
It's actually a natural progression when you're eating meat.
There's people that are on meat-only diets and their body produces its own glucose.
john mackey
I mean, I think you'll...
I hate to get into a debate with you about this.
joe rogan
You're getting into this weird plant-based debate.
Plant-based people get real edgy when you start talking about their diets.
john mackey
I'm not going to get really edgy about it.
Hey, I've got my book there for you, The Whole Foods Diet.
Take a look at it.
Take a look at it.
joe rogan
See a lot of plants on this.
Where's your steaks, bro?
john mackey
We actually allow, in that particular diet, we allow up to 10% of your calories from animals.
joe rogan
Oh, you allow it?
Mm-hmm.
Did you always eat plant-based or did you slowly gravitate towards it?
john mackey
I was vegetarian in my early 20s, and then I added fish.
And then back in 2003, I became 100% plant-based, but for ethical reasons.
I think that's why in the book, The Whole Foods Diet, we allow, ethics aside, we think a little bit of animal foods is consistent with good health.
joe rogan
What about mollusks?
You know, one of the things that I've heard about mollusks is they're so primitive, they're actually more primitive than plants.
john mackey
I don't know if they're more primitive than plants, but they don't have well-developed nervous systems, so they may not be able to experience pain as we know it.
As far as we know, plants respond to stimulation, but we don't have any evidence they experience pain.
So mollusks might be consistent with ethical veganism.
joe rogan
I've heard that argument said very well, and that not only that, but they're sustainable, you can harvest them and grow them, and that their nervous system is set up so they're moving in some way, like they close their shells and open their shells, but not in the sense that you wouldn't consider them an animal, but you can get animal protein from them.
john mackey
By the way, we're talking about things like, to be clear, we're talking about things like clams, oysters, Because I think like an octopus.
We're not talking about an octopus.
unidentified
Oh, no, no.
joe rogan
Those are super intelligent.
john mackey
Exactly.
joe rogan
They're creepy intelligent.
You ever see them open jars?
They spin the jar?
john mackey
No, but did you see that documentary that's just come out recently called My Octopus Teacher?
joe rogan
No.
john mackey
Oh, my God.
It's fantastic.
You should watch that show.
joe rogan
There is a great Instagram handle to follow.
Is it Octonation?
Is that what it is?
I think it's Octonation.
See if you can...
Do you know that one I'm talking about?
There's a fantastic Instagram page that just, they're in love with octopus and octopi, and they're constantly highlighting all the cool things about octopus, particularly their ability to camouflage themselves and hide.
john mackey
Oh, they're amazing.
I just was diving just a few weeks ago.
joe rogan
Yeah, look at this.
Look at that thing, man.
john mackey
Oh, my God.
And they can change their colors.
joe rogan
They're so cool.
They're one of the coolest animals.
john mackey
There's no doubt about it.
joe rogan
They're so strange Like my friend Remy Warren he used to have a television show called apex predator where he would basically study all these predators and their the methods that they use to hunt and He studied octopus and he like he's like they're aliens They are.
He's showing me what they're doing.
He's like, there's nothing like this.
There's no other animal like this.
And during the course of his show, he developed this profound respect and appreciation for octopus.
john mackey
They're amazing.
I was scuba diving just a few weeks ago on the U.S. Virgin Islands on a night dive and actually saw an octopus get a crab.
It plunged on the crab and it just sort of...
Discord have absorbed it.
joe rogan
Did you ever see that video that they put a camera in a tank at the aquarium because they were losing sharks and they were trying to figure out what the hell's going on so they put a camera in there to watch and it turns out the octopus were killing the sharks.
john mackey
How big was the octopus and how big were the sharks?
joe rogan
Well, the octopus was basically the same size as the sharks.
I mean, it wasn't a big shark, a small shark.
But, you know, they never thought an octopus would hunt a shark.
And the octopus was just sitting there chilling, all camouflaging a shark.
Sharks are kind of dopey.
You know, sharks are not intelligent.
john mackey
They just swim around.
joe rogan
They're just cleaners.
They're the cleanup crew.
They eat a lot of things and kill a lot of things.
But they're mostly cleanups.
And watch this.
Watch this.
You swim by and the octopus is like, Bitch, come here!
Just wraps him up.
But the octopus looked exactly like the coral.
Back it up again, Jamie, so we can see what it looked like.
Go from the beginning.
unidentified
Okay.
joe rogan
But the crazy thing is, like, you literally, look how it changes color right before.
It's almost like he sees red.
And so it jacked this shark and slowly pulled it into its body and then just ate it up.
john mackey
For whatever it's worth, if you watch My Octopus Teacher, which is, you really got this unbelievable film work.
The camera work is incredible.
This guy follows this octopus around for a full year in the coast of South Africa.
And he's a free diver, no tanks.
And he holds his breath for several minutes.
And the big enemy of the octopus there were sharks.
These pajama sharks, they were called.
And they would hunt for the octopus.
And the octopus would have to get away from them.
joe rogan
Pajama sharks.
Here it is.
john mackey
Yeah, here it is.
My octopus teacher.
joe rogan
Pajama sharks.
I've never heard of a pajama shark.
So this octopus is hanging out with this dude.
john mackey
Oh yeah, they got to be buddies.
joe rogan
That's so wild.
john mackey
There's a shark.
joe rogan
Oh, wow.
Oh, no.
He sees his buddy get jacked.
john mackey
Yeah.
joe rogan
That's kind of rough.
john mackey
He didn't die from that, though.
joe rogan
What?
john mackey
The octopus...
joe rogan
Released one of his arms?
john mackey
He lost an arm, and he grew it back.
joe rogan
Do you know that female octopuses are much larger than the males, as much as like 25% larger than the males?
I didn't know that.
Sometimes...
Have sex with the males and sometimes they pretend they're going to have sex and they kill them and eat them.
They cannibalize the males.
They'll hold on to them and eat them for days.
john mackey
Sort of like the spiders do?
Black Widow spiders and whatnot?
joe rogan
Yeah, but different because the Black Widows do it every single time.
There's one...
They observed this one octopus.
He got real greedy.
He mated with this female 13 times.
13!
Imagine how annoyed she must have been.
Well, she waited until the 14th time and she's like, not today, bitch.
And she grabbed him and ate him and killed him.
But because the female's far larger physically, the male has to be real skittish about it.
Like, hey, what do you think?
How you feeling today?
Hungry?
john mackey
There needs to be a revolution in the social structure of octopus to make it more equal.
jamie vernon
There's an article about this, and the first thing it says, like, they have tricks they do.
The first thing that they do is they disguise themselves as another gal, it says, and sneak into a female's den.
joe rogan
Well, that's what cuttlefish do.
That's the cuttlefish move.
john mackey
Oh, I love cuttlefish.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Male octopus have a big problem.
Female octopuses.
Each male wants to mate and pass on his genes to a new generation.
Trouble is, the female is often larger and hungrier than he is, so there's a constant risk that, instead of mating, the female will strangle him and eat him.
john mackey
The males have a host of tricks to survive, though.
joe rogan
Yeah, good luck.
john mackey
Some of them quite literally made at arm's length.
joe rogan
Well, you know why?
They actually release their arms.
Each arm that an octopus has is actually a penis.
And they got eight of them.
Yeah, they have sex with their arm.
john mackey
We have a lot we could learn.
There's a lot we could learn from octopus.
joe rogan
Yes.
I don't know how they masturbate, though.
They could probably have a real problem.
It's like rubbing penises together.
It's not very productive.
Yeah.
But I think each arm is a penis.
But for whatever, either way, their arm is most certainly a penis.
And when the woman, the female octopus is attacking, they will release their arm.
They literally will give her the arm.
They let her snap the arm off.
And then she eats the arm.
john mackey
Better to keep the other seven arms.
joe rogan
Well, I guess, yeah, if that's imagined.
I mean, there's a divorce metaphor in there somewhere.
john mackey
Sex is dangerous.
What can you say?
joe rogan
Well, it's also weird.
They regenerate their arms, which is pretty crafty.
john mackey
Yeah.
joe rogan
You know, that's what, you know, when they catch stone crabs, they catch them and they just snap off their claw and then throw them back and they'll just grow a claw.
unidentified
Yeah.
john mackey
Oh, you mean humans do that?
joe rogan
When people catch them.
john mackey
Yeah, exactly.
joe rogan
It's one of the weirder fish or weirder types of seafood because it's one of the rare ones where you can catch the thing, snap off one of their limbs, and chuck them back.
You can keep part of them and they still survive.
And they don't even have a problem with it.
john mackey
I suspect they survive less...
Along with only one claw than if they had a couple of claws.
joe rogan
Yeah, I would imagine.
john mackey
But they have a chance to survive.
joe rogan
Yeah, they have a better chance.
john mackey
Better chance than if they just get immediately eaten.
jamie vernon
Just to correct that eight-arm penis thing.
It says that their main tool is their specialized mating arm.
It works like the other arms, but it has some special ability to bend, stretch, and exert suction.
joe rogan
So they have one arm that's a special penis arm?
jamie vernon
Mm-hmm.
It has some extra bells and whistles, as this says.
joe rogan
Do they grow that one back if she steals it?
I imagine.
john mackey
That's the one you don't want to offer up.
joe rogan
Maybe.
Maybe you're tired of it.
jamie vernon
It's got a special tip, obviously.
joe rogan
Maybe they're tired of, like, worried about getting eaten.
Like, oh, great, she took my penis.
Good.
I can relax her a couple weeks while it grows back.
Just stay away from these vicious broads and their goddamn cannibalistic instincts.
So he only has one of those.
jamie vernon
Yeah, and there's a picture.
I haven't seen a picture.
joe rogan
Find out if that one grows back.
jamie vernon
There's the picture of what it looks like when I do it.
joe rogan
Oh, Jesus.
jamie vernon
It has to go all the way.
john mackey
It's deep.
unidentified
Oh, wow.
joe rogan
It goes into her brain.
john mackey
It's going into her head.
joe rogan
Oh, my God.
No wonder why she wants to kill him.
It's probably annoying, right?
Her ovaries are in the back of her head.
That's nuts.
jamie vernon
These are the testes.
joe rogan
Wow.
So his testicles are the back of his brain and her...
What a strange animal, man.
john mackey
They are.
You said they're aliens.
joe rogan
Yeah, they really are.
I mean, if we found them on some far-off planet, we would not be stunned.
Like, if they didn't exist here and we found them somewhere else...
We'd be like, oh, alien life.
We're just so accustomed to some of the more bizarre things.
john mackey
Squid are also bizarre.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
john mackey
And so are cuttlefish.
joe rogan
Yes, cuttlefish.
We were talking about cuttlefish before.
Eric Weinstein is the one who told me about the cuttlefish strategy, that male cuttlefish will pretend to be female.
And they'll do that in order to trick the females into being friends with them, and then they get some.
Like male feminists, basically the same thing.
john mackey
I'm not going to go there.
jamie vernon
They have the old school arm reach around, like the guys do in the movie theater.
joe rogan
Oh, like at the movie theater?
jamie vernon
But they don't even go inside the den.
That's for them to safely mate.
They'll reach in, slide it in, and then just like, they're not even in the same room technically.
joe rogan
Wow, they'll just reach in and just get into her brain.
What a bizarre method of mating.
Linking brains.
john mackey
Females have different tastes.
joe rogan
Yeah, some of them too.
Don't be sexist.
Listen to this guy.
Yeah, that's a weird animal to eat, octopus, because they're smarter than dogs.
They're really smart.
john mackey
Is intelligence one of the variables you use in determining what animals you'll eat and not eat?
joe rogan
Yes and no, because pigs are intelligent, but I'll eat wild pigs because pigs are invasive and it's a real problem in terms of management of wildlife and the amount of animals that you have.
And what kind of destruction they can do to ground-nesting birds and other species that are native to the area.
Invasive animals are a gigantic issue.
And pigs, in particular, are one of the most devastating invasive species that we have in North America, for sure, but worldwide.
In Australia, they're a giant problem.
john mackey
There are actually now an increasing problem in the hill country here.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
No, I have a friend that lives a half hour out of town, and he's got them.
That's not very far.
john mackey
We wipe out their natural predators.
joe rogan
No, there are no natural predators.
They've never had any here.
They were brought in here from Russia and from other countries.
They're a very durable animal that breeds constantly.
And their natural predators are...
If you're going to keep a population of pigs down, you've got to have some fucking monsters out there.
If you want to have their natural predators, their natural predators are not just going to stop at pigs.
They're going to eat all sorts of...
Other animals and domestic animals and livestock.
They're invasive.
john mackey
Big cats or wolves would probably be natural predators for these pigs.
joe rogan
But you need so many of them.
They're so prolific.
They breed so often.
They breed three or four times a year.
john mackey
Joe, you've got to get out there and help protect our land.
joe rogan
I'm not the guy, but I will eat them and I will kill them.
Pigs, the wild pigs, when they're six months old, they're viable.
So they start having sex and breeding at six months old, and they'll breed a litter three times a year sometimes, which is crazy.
So they'll have four or five piglets three times a year.
So one pig could be responsible for as many as 20 other pigs, one female, in a year.
And I have a friend who works on a ranch, and he says, you have never seen anything like the devastation these things do when they move in and find a crop.
So if they'll have a crop of food that these folks need for their livelihood, and then a pack of wild pigs come in and just destroys it.
He says it's pretty wild to see.
And some of them are huge.
john mackey
Wow.
We own a place 40 miles west of Austin, and we see a lot of the pig scat plus where they dig.
So we don't actually see them because they're nocturnal.
joe rogan
Yeah, they hunt them at night, which is really crazy.
I have friends that do them with night vision goggles and night vision scopes.
And there's people that hunt them with helicopters as well, which is very unique to Texas.
They have these helicopter hunts and they say that other than capturing them in traps, it's one of the most effective ways to do it.
john mackey
Well, you've got me.
I'm a grocer who sells meat, but I'm a plant-based guy who doesn't eat it.
So you've got me in a paradox there.
joe rogan
Well, is that weird for you?
Do you have an issue, an ethical issue with selling the meat, or do you make sure that the farmers...
Are the ranchers that do sell you guys the meat hold up very strict ethics?
john mackey
We try to do the latter.
Although, I'll tell you a story.
The very first store I opened up before Whole Foods was called Safer Way.
It's a vegetarian store.
It was not only vegetarian, it was very pure.
We didn't really sell sugar or refined sugars or white flour.
We didn't even sell coffee.
We also did very little business.
We were so narrow in the marketplace, we weren't successful.
And it wasn't until we relocated that store, merged with another store, changed the name to Whole Foods Market, and opened a bigger store that sold meat, coffee, alcohol, all natural and organic foods, but a full spectrum, that we became successful.
joe rogan
So was that in many ways like a battle for you a little bit because you have this one idealistic perspective of what a supermarket could be versus this is the most profitable?
john mackey
It was a battle.
I put it this way.
What I learned is that in order to do the most good in the world, in order to help the most people, you have to be willing to meet the marketplace where you find it.
If you try to stand above the marketplace, And you're too pure for the marketplace, then you're not going to help anybody.
You're going to fail.
You're going to go out of business.
Ultimately, customers vote.
They decide whether you prosper or fail.
And SaferWave was going to fail because would it be possible to do it today?
Maybe so today.
The world's different today than it was in 1978. But back then, we were going to fail.
We lost half our money in the first year.
joe rogan
In 1978, Starbucks wasn't around, was it?
john mackey
No.
No, actually, Starbucks was...
I don't think they were around.
They were getting close to being around.
joe rogan
Nobody knew how addictive coffee was back then.
john mackey
Oh, yeah, they did.
joe rogan
But they didn't really.
john mackey
They did, but they were drinking instant coffee, like Folgers and Maxwell House.
joe rogan
Or Dunkin' Donuts, that's where I used to drink.
But I never thought that coffee would be a thing that would be on every corner.
Like there's a place in Houston, and Louis Black used to have a joke about it, where you'd be on, it was in River Oaks, it was across the street from another Starbucks.
There was a Starbucks across the street from another Starbucks.
It was the strangest thing.
john mackey
Well, New York City, they got them practically in Manhattan on every block.
joe rogan
Yeah, but this was across the street.
john mackey
Well, there was a cartoon once that said, I just opened up a Starbucks in the bathroom of a Starbucks.
joe rogan
But people are so addicted to it.
It's so strange how addicted they are to getting their Starbucks fix.
You know, they use their apps.
So when you were selling no coffee back then, were you doing it because you don't believe in coffee?
You think coffee's bad for you?
Or did you make a decision?
Is it a fair trade issue?
john mackey
No, we just didn't think it was a healthy food.
So we didn't sell it.
And then, now we do sell it.
We sell probably, I'm sure we sell probably one of the largest coffee distributors in the United States now, probably.
joe rogan
Yeah, you probably are.
I think out of I think they've done studies on moderate coffee consumption that have shown it to not have a detrimental effect.
john mackey
There's no nutritive value in coffee except for perhaps some antioxidants.
But the studies do indicate that moderate consumption of coffee is consistent with longevity.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
So I don't think it's a...
It's not like...
Smoking cigarettes is not...
joe rogan
There's a cognitive benefit to it, too, that some people think it's worth the squeeze.
john mackey
Mental stimulant.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
Problem is, I have to admit that I'm a decaf guy.
I got off of coffee.
joe rogan
But it tastes like shit.
Why not just drink?
I'm going to sneeze.
It's so dangerous today.
Thank God I've been tested.
john mackey
Absolutely.
Unless you got infected and it hasn't shown up yet.
joe rogan
I didn't.
But tea tastes better.
Why don't you drink tea?
Why would you want decaf coffee?
john mackey
I like decaf espresso.
It tastes really good.
joe rogan
I like regular espresso.
I want to feel the juice getting in the veins.
The darkness.
john mackey
I've taken that.
I was recovering.
It took me, when I got off of caffeine back in the year 2000, I had, first of all, I had physical withdrawal symptoms of headaches that lasted, horrible headaches that lasted about a week before the headaches went away.
And then I was exhausted.
I was tired.
And all I could think about, if I would have a cup of coffee or some tea right now, I'd feel good again.
I'd have energy back.
joe rogan
Yeah!
john mackey
Exactly.
joe rogan
She'd have done it!
john mackey
However, after 30 days, after 30 days, I'd gotten the caffeine out of my system.
Next caffeine, about seven days to completely leave your system.
And my adrenals began to be re-established.
I kind of got my own energy back.
joe rogan
Okay, you know that's bullshit?
john mackey
What?
joe rogan
Adrenals.
What you just said is bullshit.
That you're taxing your adrenals.
That's some voodoo nonsense that those holistic people like to tell you.
john mackey
I don't think that's true.
joe rogan
No, I've read it.
There was a study on it recently where they were talking about what it would actually take to tax your adrenals.
And then what people are talking about is withdrawal from caffeine, which is real.
john mackey
Let me...
Let me withdraw that statement because that wasn't the real point of it.
The point of it was that once I got my own vitality back, I was no longer a servant of the caffeine, which would determine when I felt good and when I didn't feel good.
I just had my natural flow of energy and vitality.
And having compared the two states, this is a preferable state in my mind.
I feel a lot better.
joe rogan
I believe that 100%.
The problem I was having is that adrenal thing.
It's a thing that people say.
A lot of people say.
john mackey
I'm not a...
That's what I've read, but I don't know it for any certainty.
joe rogan
Yeah, I've read it too.
john mackey
But what I do know is I felt a lot better when I got off a caffeine.
joe rogan
Well, I'm sure you're...
john mackey
When I got off a caffeine.
joe rogan
I mean, it's a stimulant.
That's what caffeine is.
john mackey
And you've got to pay that.
You create a debt.
You've got to pay that stimulus back.
joe rogan
Yeah.
But I recently read this article by a nutritionist.
It was explaining what would have to go wrong in your system for you to tax your adrenals.
That's just not how it works.
You're just dealing with a stimulant and that your body is getting off of that stimulant.
And like any other stimulant, there's going to be a withdrawal.
But it's not that you're taxing your adrenals.
john mackey
Okay.
joe rogan
Yeah.
But see, people say things like that, like you're polluting your kidneys or damaging your kidneys by eating too much protein.
john mackey
You know, what can I say?
I've read possibly different studies and articles than you have in different books.
joe rogan
Well, I've had too many people explain things to me here, or, you know, I had some ideas that I had in my head that I thought was correct in terms of nutrition and what's good and what's bad for you, and you Let me give you a couple of facts that you might find interesting.
john mackey
First of all, there's been only one diet that's been proven to reverse heart disease.
And that is a whole foods, plant-based diet.
joe rogan
I don't think that's true.
I know what you're saying, but I've actually read that that's not true either, that this proven to reduce heart disease, that that's not what's reducing heart disease.
What's reducing heart disease is healthy behaviors and that you're making this change in terms of eliminating toxic foods and processed foods.
john mackey
So do you have any other studies that show you can reverse heart disease?
Without being on a whole foods, plant-based diet?
Reverse it.
Reverse it.
joe rogan
See, that's the thing.
It's like nutritionists have explained to me that there's a giant flaw in these epidemiology studies that people are citing.
john mackey
This is not epidemiology.
joe rogan
How would you do that?
john mackey
These are controlled studies.
Dean Ornish and Caldwell Esselstyn.
They're the two giants.
joe rogan
Reversing heart disease just because of a plant-based diet?
john mackey
No, not just a plant-based diet.
A whole foods, plant-based, low-fat diet has been proven to reverse it.
joe rogan
I don't know if that's true.
john mackey
It is true.
joe rogan
Okay.
We're going to find out if it is.
Jamie will pull something up.
Because I've read something about how that was bullshit, too.
And it was by...
john mackey
In my book, by the way.
So my studies are in the book.
The Whole Foods.
joe rogan
Oh, I'm sure you've read some things that say that.
john mackey
Let me give you the other facts.
joe rogan
Okay.
john mackey
So do you know about the blue zones?
joe rogan
Yes, I do.
john mackey
Okay.
Well...
Five Blue Zones, their diets are remarkably similar.
They're basically eating about, on average, according to Dan Buettner, good guy to have on your show sometime.
joe rogan
Like Yerba Linda, right?
Yerba Linda, California?
john mackey
Loma Linda.
joe rogan
Loma Linda, that's right.
john mackey
Loma Linda, the seven-day adventist.
joe rogan
What is Yerba Linda?
I'm thinking Yerba Mate.
john mackey
Yeah, I think you are.
We're talking about caffeine.
We're talking about caffeine.
That may be your choice, Yerba Mate.
joe rogan
But you know that one, that's the Seventh-day Adventist, right?
john mackey
Yeah, but there's also the Okinawa, Ikaria, Greece.
joe rogan
Right.
You understand healthy user bias, right?
This is like the great example of the Seventh-day Adventist.
They don't drink any alcohol.
They exercise every day.
They have many more positive habits.
And you apply those positive habits and the fact that you eat a vegetarian diet, you could assume that the reason why they're healthy is because of the vegetarian diet.
john mackey
That's not what I'm saying because none of the Blue Zones except for a small subset of the 7-Day Adventists are actually vegetarian.
Most of them just eat small quantities of animal foods, about 10% of their calories, which is what we recommend in this book.
joe rogan
Right, but they're almost all very active people.
john mackey
Yes, but we don't have any examples of longevity in any culture that eats a heavy meat diet.
joe rogan
None.
Longevity.
john mackey
Longevity.
joe rogan
Like the Maasai?
john mackey
Living the Maasai.
You know the average age of a Maasai?
joe rogan
No, I don't.
45. Well, don't they fuck up lions with spears?
john mackey
Whatever.
joe rogan
That's not a risky business.
john mackey
It may be, but it's not a good example.
Yeah.
How about the Inuits?
That's another one that's used.
They're usually, they have the highest heart disease problems.
joe rogan
Okay, but stop right there, because that's not normal.
This is a recent occurrence with them because of cigarettes and alcohol, Western diet.
And changing the way they live.
The introduction of cigarettes and alcohol is what's fucked those people up.
john mackey
I'm merely saying, and I put the challenge to you, show me examples of long-lived peoples that are heavy consumers of animal foods.
joe rogan
Well, I don't know of any specific long-term...
Studies that have been done on people who are eating a lot of animal food and are also very active and healthy and making healthy choices outside of that.
The problem with alcohol and cigarettes and all these other things that people tend to take in and consume when they're also consuming animal foods is that all those things get lumped in together.
john mackey
I agree.
The Blue Zones doesn't claim that it's just diet.
They actually believe there's many factors.
There's the amount of movement that people do, the healthy community that they have, some type of purpose, higher purpose, spirituality.
joe rogan
Jamie, just Google plant-based diet has not been shown to reverse heart disease.
This article that I was reading, I wish I had saved it.
john mackey
Mind you, I want to keep saying it's not just a plant-based diet.
A plant-based diet can be remarkably unhealthy if you're eating the vegan cheeses all the time.
joe rogan
You're saying whole food, plant-based diet, like eating vegetables?
john mackey
Lots of fruits and vegetables, beans, whole grains, small quantities of nuts and seeds.
That's an extremely healthy diet.
And if you add a little bit of animal foods to it, then it's still going to be a really healthy diet.
And that's what the Blue Zones do.
joe rogan
I think what we can all agree on is that eating toxic food, eating processed food, not healthy, not exercising, living a sedentary lifestyle, consumption of cigarettes and alcohol, all these things are detrimental to your health.
john mackey
Absolutely.
I'll even go so far as to say that A vegan junk food diet is about the most unhealthy diet you can eat because you're just eating processed foods.
Animal foods are actually whole foods and they have a variety of nutrients in them.
You can get them all from plants except for B12. So what do you think is bad about animal foods other than the ethics?
From a health standpoint, it depends on how much you eat.
And if you eat too much of it, then we see the heart disease, we see cancer.
These all correlate very closely with...
joe rogan
Right, but now you're talking about epidemiology studies.
john mackey
Yes, but epidemiology, we can't do controlled studies on people over the long term.
joe rogan
Right, but you understand that the people that you're seeing high rates of cancer and heart disease aren't consuming grass-fed steak and salads.
What they're consuming is cheeseburgers and fries and milkshakes and soda and all sorts of bullshit.
So when they do a study on someone, they say, how often do you eat meat?
And they say, I eat meat five days a week.
And they go, oh, well, look at the incidence of cancer and people that fill out the study and say they eat meat five days a week.
That's where they make these correlations and connections.
john mackey
It's like I do this debate all the time, too.
And so I understand your position on this.
And all I would say is, where are the epidemiological studies to support your point of view?
There aren't any.
joe rogan
Well, epidemiology studies, it's my point of view.
What do you mean?
If you wanted an epidemiology study that supported the fact that animal foods are not bad for you, you would have to find groups of people that only eat animal foods and don't consume alcohol and cigarettes and then comparing to people that do and find out what the variables are.
Right?
People who do consume cigarettes and do consume alcohol and do consume processed foods and sugars and excess, you know, corn syrup foods and all the shit that we know is a part of a standard American diet, right?
john mackey
Are you saying that people that consume animal foods are more likely to consume processed foods, cigarettes, and alcohol?
joe rogan
They are, because people have been told that animal foods are bad for you.
So when people are like, fuck it, And they just have a cheeseburger, particularly if you're talking about the average American.
The average American that's getting their meat, they're probably not eating a grass-fed ribeye.
They're probably eating a cheeseburger that they get from Jack in the Box or someplace like that.
So you're getting processed foods, you're getting meat, but you're also getting sugar and corn syrup and all sorts of other nonsense.
That's the problem with these epidemiology studies, and you know that.
john mackey
Yeah, but you're talking about a pretty small group.
If you've got the whole world to work from, lots of the world eats animal foods that are grass-fed, and the same type of results show up there.
Generally, the more animal foods...
joe rogan
Same type of results in terms of what?
The term heart disease and cancer and with people that occasionally...
Like, what are the studies you're talking about?
john mackey
I can...
Would you like me to send you some studies?
joe rogan
No, I want you to tell me right now because you're saying it like you know it for a fact.
What studies are showing that people that consume grass-fed meat and vegetables are showing the same levels of heart disease and cancer as people that eat the standard American diet?
john mackey
Since I don't have those studies in front of me.
joe rogan
They don't exist.
The standard American diet is toxic.
john mackey
I can send them to you.
joe rogan
It's toxic.
Eating horse shit and drinking soda, it's not good for your body.
john mackey
No, it's terrible.
joe rogan
Right.
john mackey
Well, that's where we agree.
We agree processed foods are bad.
joe rogan
So when you're getting this standard American diet and they're applying it to an epidemiology study where they're saying, oh, this person eats meat five days a week.
Well, what else do they eat?
The problem with those studies is they're so flawed.
If you're making someone fill out a form...
john mackey
You're having an argument with somebody besides me.
Somebody you've had an argument with in the past.
Because I'm not saying that you're overreacting to things that I'm saying based on some other discussions you've had in the past.
joe rogan
I don't think I'm overreacting.
john mackey
If you're interested, I will send you studies.
And I can tell you that the studies contradict what you're saying.
And that the epidemiology, because it's not as good as a randomized, controlled study, which are hard to do in nutrition, does not make them worthless.
It just means that they're not a complete answer.
But they do point in certain directions.
joe rogan
But they're conveniently pointing to this meat argument versus all the other stuff they're eating, which we've shown to be bad for you.
People have been eating meat since the beginning of time.
john mackey
But not in very large quantities, generally.
joe rogan
Depends on what people.
john mackey
Yeah, depends on which people.
joe rogan
I mean, people that have been around buffalo, and that's all they could eat.
They ate nothing but buffalo.
john mackey
So the animals that we are closest to from an evolutionary standpoint are the chimpanzees, the bonobos, and the gorillas.
We're not exactly the same, but they're the closest relatives we have in nature.
The gorillas are 100%.
And by the way, they're pretty damn big.
They get enough protein.
joe rogan
They have a completely different digestive system.
john mackey
Not completely different.
joe rogan
It's very different.
They eat only leaves and grass and Bark and shit.
It's very different.
john mackey
The chimpanzees are about 95% plant-based.
They're the closest to us.
They're about 99%.
joe rogan
I think it's so exciting when they kill monkeys.
Have you ever watched those videos, like the David Attenborough videos?
john mackey
They eat about 5% of their calories.
Studies show they eat about 5% of their calories from animal foods.
And again, I'm not arguing that we don't eat any animals.
Humans, we clearly evolved as omnivores.
But in general, we were mostly gatherers who, we couldn't preserve most animal foods.
We didn't have the technology to preserve it.
So we feasted when we could get it.
But you could smoke some of it and dry some of it for jerky.
But in general, we didn't have massive supplies of animal foods.
We were mostly eating plants with a little bit of animal foods.
That might be the optimum human diet.
joe rogan
Right, but you also understand that most plants are inedible.
john mackey
Most plants are inedible, true.
joe rogan
Yeah, and most animals are edible.
john mackey
That's probably true.
joe rogan
So whenever they got a chance to eat plants, they probably had to be real careful with what they could eat and what they couldn't eat because most of it was inedible and much of it even toxic.
Whereas if they can catch an animal and eat it, they're almost all edible.
john mackey
How many different animal foods do you eat?
joe rogan
How many different ones?
john mackey
Give me a rough estimate.
joe rogan
Eggs, meat, fish?
john mackey
No, but maybe 20 different kinds?
joe rogan
Probably something like that.
john mackey
How many different plant foods do you eat?
joe rogan
Well, I live in a Western society where I can go to Whole Foods and I can get tomatoes and all kinds of avocados, stuff that's not even grown here.
I mean, it's a different world.
john mackey
When we were foraging...
We knew which were toxic plants because we'd had our grandparents...
unidentified
A bunch of people died from it.
john mackey
Exactly.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
And so, but there was a huge variety of plants.
We ate massively diverse diets when we were out foraging.
unidentified
Right.
john mackey
Probably far more diverse than we eat today, even though there's a whole foods market.
Just because there were so many different foods out there in the wild, in the woods, in the jungles.
This will have to be a conversation that we can have at another time, probably.
joe rogan
But what's your point?
I agree with you that there's probably a lot of different plants.
john mackey
I was talking about, well, you were saying that we can eat any kind of animal, but we can't eat any kind of plant.
And I'm saying there's so much more abundance of plants to choose from than in our normal diet or when we were foragers than animals.
Animals were a much smaller percentage of our total calorie consumption.
joe rogan
Probably because they're really hard to catch.
But they also think that one of the reasons why we became human beings was because of hunting.
And it's directly correlated to the increase of brain size.
Cooking meat and hunting and having more access to protein sources.
john mackey
You understand that's a theory.
That's not science.
That's just a theory.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
It's one of the most probable theories.
One of the most accepted theories in terms of the increase in human brain size.
john mackey
There's an equally theory that probably when we became root eaters is when we really got brains.
joe rogan
I've never read that theory.
When we became root eaters, that's when our brains grew?
john mackey
We started eating tubers, yeah.
joe rogan
How come rabbits aren't gigantic brains?
john mackey
They're not big tubers eaters, they're leaf eaters.
joe rogan
Rabbits eat carrots, man.
You watch Bugs Bunny.
john mackey
So, how do those blue whales get so damn big just eating plankton?
joe rogan
Well, they eat a lot of things.
They don't just eat plankton.
john mackey
No, I think the blue whales are plankton eaters.
joe rogan
That's it?
That's all they eat?
john mackey
There are other whales that are definitely eating.
joe rogan
Yeah, listen, we're not whales, right?
This is going to be a weird conversation.
The whales have still never figured out how to grow fingers.
john mackey
We're humans, we're great apes, and we've evolved similar to other great apes.
joe rogan
But I don't like those...
How come this animal can do it?
We're not that animal.
john mackey
We know from the blue zones that the people that eat mostly plant-based diets live the longest.
There's a massive amount of evidence if you'll open your mind to it.
joe rogan
Listen, my mind's open.
Those blue zones are also people that are very active.
There's a direct correlation between physical activity.
I think the people that live a vegan diet, that follow a vegan diet, but are healthy and exercise, Are far better off than someone who lives a sedentary lifestyle and even eats healthy meat.
I think the key is healthy, like if you're going to be a healthy person, you need physical activity.
And that there's a direct correlation between physical activity and longevity and health benefits.
john mackey
Of course.
Absolutely.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Well, this is what you see a lot in these blue zones as well, right?
john mackey
Yes.
I mean, I'm merely saying what's true.
There's one factor.
Diet is a factor.
It may be one of the most important factors, but it's not the only factor for longevity.
But the longest-lived peoples, what they have in common is they all move, they all have families and communities.
And they also mostly eat whole foods, plant-based diets.
That's mostly what they eat with some animal foods.
None of them are vegan, except for a small subset of the Adventists.
But they are mostly plant-based eaters that have a small 10% of their calories in animal foods.
At least that's what the studies show.
joe rogan
The studies also show that they're also very active.
john mackey
Yes, they are very active.
Not because they're out running around, but just because their natural lifestyle moves are out.
joe rogan
You find anything?
jamie vernon
I mean, there's a lot of stuff in this topic.
joe rogan
I need to have my own research.
john mackey
I need to have my own research.
joe rogan
That I read recently.
I think the article was basically stop saying that a vegan diet reverses heart disease.
And it was explaining all the problems in that logic.
jamie vernon
I didn't find that specific one but there's an article here from the British Heart Foundation that talks about this and I think that started with a small study of 22 people that did plant-based and four of them had some reversal.
This article here though currently goes into deeper studies and It says that there isn't really a good study about it.
joe rogan
Exactly.
jamie vernon
from what I can find.
At least go into this.
joe rogan
A study published in 2014 looked at 198 patients to further investigate whether eating a strict plant-based diet could stop or reverse heart disease.
It found that of the 177 patients who stuck to the diet, the majority reported a reduction in symptoms and 22% had a disease reversal confirmed by test results.
But that study didn't just rule out animal products.
It also cut out added oils, processed foods, sugar, refined carbohydrates, excess salt, fruit juice, avocados, and nuts.
Physical activity was also encouraged and prescribed.
Medication continued.
This is the problem with saying that.
And this is not just one of these that's like this.
It's basically the same thing.
You're talking about people that make healthy choices, and that's what's reverse heart disease.
Also, change their diet and eat healthier.
But not just eat plants and a plant-based diet, but also remove processed foods and sugars.
john mackey
Of course, a whole foods...
Plant-based, low-fat diet.
That's the three that's proven to reverse heart disease.
joe rogan
Yeah, but these people also cut out sugar, refined carbohydrates, excess salt, fruit juice.
john mackey
Those are not whole foods.
joe rogan
Exactly, but they cut out the bullshit that was killing them.
It wasn't that plant-based diets were reversing heart disease.
They cut out the things that were killing them.
This is what the other article that I wish I could find it.
john mackey
So I guess what I'm saying is show me a study that people eat, cut out all the processed foods, This is showing that the people are cutting out toxic things that we know are toxic.
joe rogan
I don't believe animal foods are toxic.
I think people have been eating animal foods from the beginning of time.
I think the problem is these things that we haven't been eating since the beginning of time, processed carbohydrates, Sugars, fruit juice, all the bullshit, vegetable oils, all these things that people have been adding to their diets fairly recently that coincides with a direct uptick in heart disease.
john mackey
So your hypothesis is, first of all...
joe rogan
I don't have a hypothesis.
This is just shit that I've read.
john mackey
Okay, so what you believe from the shit you've read is that you could eat a high animal food diet, cut out all the processed stuff, and you'd reverse heart disease.
joe rogan
I think that the reason why people get heart disease is because they eat shit and they don't exercise.
I think that is where heart disease is coming from.
I don't think plants are going to fix your heart.
john mackey
I think it comes from both.
And you think it just comes from the processed foods.
That's where we part company.
joe rogan
Yeah.
That is probably where we part company.
I think plants are good for you.
Don't get me wrong.
I think eating healthy and eating whole foods, we both agree, are good for you.
I just don't think that meat is bad for you.
john mackey
I don't think in small quantities meat is bad for you.
But I think in large quantities it starts to clog up your arteries and your propensity to cancer goes up.
Because I think that's what the science shows.
joe rogan
I don't think the science does show that.
I don't think the science shows that large...
john mackey
I'm going to send you the studies.
joe rogan
...that it clogs your heart?
Clogs your arteries?
Is that what happens?
john mackey
The high fat content of the meat over time clogs up your arteries, yes.
joe rogan
Yeah.
I'd like to sit you down with a doctor who disagrees with you and have you go back and forth with it.
Because it's a complicated issue.
Diet is a very complicated issue, and it goes along with so many different things that people choose.
Lifestyle choices.
When you see the results, like how healthy or how sick you are, there's a lot of factors that go into there.
But people that are plant-based tend to lean on that one factor.
They tend to lean on this one aspect of their lifestyle choices that seems to be improving health.
And I don't think you can do that as much as I don't think that you can lean on meat as being a cause of cancer when you look at epidemiology studies with people that eat meat five days a week but also consume a bunch of bullshit.
john mackey
So clearly we're going to not agree on this one.
joe rogan
I think we need to make studies that show, like, if they had a study where they took someone...
Or took a group of people, a large group like in that study, and they took them off of the standard American diet and fed them grass-fed beef and vegetables and then had them exercise on a regular basis, I bet we would see similar results.
john mackey
First of all, if you did, again, it's a matter of degree, if you're feeding people vegetables, fruits and vegetables, and they're not, and you take out all the shit, that's a pretty healthy diet right there.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
It's just not the healthiest diet I think you could eat, but it's a lot healthier than the standard American diet, so you're going to get some good results on it.
I'm merely saying that the studies that we know that have actually reversed heart disease cut out all the shit and And also limit oil, or don't have any oil, limit total fat consumption, and also limit animal foods.
That's worked.
Now maybe others will work as well, as you say.
We should do a study where they eat 30% of their calories in animal foods, cut out all the processed carbohydrates, and see if that reverses heart disease.
I agree.
Let's do the study.
But as far as I know, no study has been done.
So that for now, based on what we know now, we do know That if you eat a whole foods, plant-based, low-fat diet, you can reverse your heart disease.
Because it's been proven repeatedly.
joe rogan
We do know that if you cut out all the shit that we know gives you heart disease, it will reverse heart disease.
And if you eat whole foods along with that and exercise, you'll be healthier.
What we don't know is that meat gives you cancer.
We don't know that meat gives you heart disease and that meat hurts you.
john mackey
First of all, I've never said that meat gives you cancer.
joe rogan
But you said that plant-based diets have been shown to reverse heart disease.
I don't think that's what we can say.
I think what we can say is that cutting out all the things that we know are very unhealthy, exercising and eating plants are probably good for you because they're whole foods.
john mackey
You can say that we aren't certain that the meat is a contributing factor, but we cannot say that the studies that have reversed it didn't include meat.
Now maybe meat was neutral.
Maybe it had nothing to do with it.
So you might be right.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm saying that you don't have any studies on your side in reversing heart disease.
Meat has been cut out along with the crap.
And heart disease gets reversed.
Maybe meat had nothing to do with it.
Maybe if they kept the meat in, they still would reverse heart disease.
But no studies have shown that.
That's all I'm saying.
joe rogan
But this study is all changing lifestyle.
It's not just a plant-based diet.
john mackey
That's right.
I'm not saying it is.
But that's the problem with saying that.
They only changed diet.
Ornish changed.
He had people moving and meditating.
Esselstyn, if you read Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease by Caldwell Esselstyn in his studies, all he did was control for diet.
Well, it's an amazing statistic, the amount of people that reverse their heart disease.
We'll have to...
Have a further conversation.
I'll send you some data and some studies.
joe rogan
I think the idea that meat is not bad for you is a fairly recent idea.
I think that people have been, first of all, you have to go back to the sugar industry, bribing scientists to say that saturated fat and not sugar is what caused heart disease, and I'm sure you're aware of that, right?
john mackey
I've had a debate with Nina Ty Schultz, and I've argued with Gary Taubes before, so I see it differently than they do.
joe rogan
You see what differently?
The fact that the sugar industry bribed scientists?
john mackey
No, that sugar...
joe rogan
You know about that though, right?
john mackey
You're going to have to read through my book.
joe rogan
Okay, but before I do that, you know that the sugar industry has been proven to have bribed scientists to alter results so that they prove...
Well, they're pointing to the idea that it was saturated fat that was causing heart disease instead of sugar.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
You know about that, right?
john mackey
I know that sugar's bad for people.
joe rogan
But you know that scientists were bribed By the sugar industry.
This has been proven.
The New York Times wrote a whole story about it.
And we already said they never lie.
john mackey
I think we didn't quite come to that conclusion.
joe rogan
That's what we said.
But you do know that they did that, right?
That it has been proven.
john mackey
No, I don't know that.
I don't believe it's been proven that sugar causes heart disease.
There might have been a bribe.
joe rogan
That's not what I said.
Yes, that's what I said.
That the sugar industry bribed scientists to...
Try to alter public opinion and show that it was saturated fat that was causing heart disease and take the blame off of sugar.
john mackey
I do believe that saturated fat is a contributing factor to heart disease.
And I believe the evidence is pretty overwhelming.
joe rogan
Fifty years ago, sugar industry quietly paid scientists to point blame at fat.
john mackey
So what?
joe rogan
Well, that's a big deal, man.
unidentified
It is.
joe rogan
It changed the way people think about diet.
Because people were saying, oh my god, saturated fat is giving you heart disease.
I think it is.
Okay.
But this is why people started thinking this way.
They were thinking this way because of the sugar industry.
The sugar industry bribing scientists.
Regardless of whether or not we agree or disagree on anything else, you have to admit that this is a giant issue.
john mackey
You don't think the dairy industry, the egg industry, and the cattle industry bribe scientists?
They do.
joe rogan
I would like you to show me some studies that they have.
See how we can do this?
See how we can both do this?
john mackey
Sure.
They fund studies.
joe rogan
Yes, they do.
john mackey
In order to try to prove their products are healthy for people.
joe rogan
They fund studies to try to prove their products are healthy, but do they bribe scientists to lie?
john mackey
Joe, no one's defending the sugar industry.
I think you're making a logical fallacy.
The fact that the sugar industry acted unethically, that proves that saturated fat doesn't cause heart disease.
joe rogan
No, it changes the perception of people when it comes to meat and health.
And I think it did, and I think it has ever since then.
The people saw this and read this, and in their mind, meat became saturated fat, saturated fat became heart disease, and it became a dangerous thing to eat too much meat.
john mackey
So, here's an interesting question for you.
How much do you think total animal food consumption has gone up in the United States per capita in the last 80 years?
joe rogan
I would assume it's probably pretty high.
john mackey
Yeah, it's gone way up.
joe rogan
Because we have more access to food, right?
With factory farming and fast food.
john mackey
We're eating more animal foods.
Than ever before.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
We're also eating more vegetable seed oils.
john mackey
So the sugar industry failed.
The sugar industry failed in its task to get people to stop eating meat.
joe rogan
No, it didn't.
Because the task wasn't to try to get people to stop eating meat.
It was to get people to not worry about eating sugar and consume more sugar and not have any fear about the health consequences of consuming sugar.
Because it wasn't sugar that was giving people heart disease.
It was fat.
john mackey
Nobody's defending sugar in this discussion.
I am certainly not defending sugar.
joe rogan
Why they bribed people.
They didn't bribed people so that people would hate fat.
They bribed people so they would take the blame off of sugar.
john mackey
I already concede that point, but it doesn't make saturated fat good for people.
In large quantities, it's not.
It's clearly not.
And I will send you studies on it.
And actually, I've got it in my book, and I've got studies quoted in the book.
joe rogan
Well, I don't know if that's true.
You know, I mean, there's been a lot of people that have eaten what they call a carnivore diet and reversed a lot of symptoms that they've had with autoimmune diseases.
And there's different people that have different reactions to foods.
There's certain people that eat nuts and they get deathly ill.
There's certain people that eat them and they're very healthy.
john mackey
It's true.
joe rogan
There's people that have vegan diets and they don't have any problems with it.
And there's other people that have severe issues with it.
john mackey
That's true.
There's diversity and there may not be one diet that could solve all human problems.
joe rogan
No, I don't think there is.
I don't think anybody would say there is.
Anybody that's being ethical and honest.
I think human beings, biodiversity in human beings is pretty extreme.
You know, depending upon where your ancestors came from, depending upon what body type and blood type, there's a lot of different issues.
That's my problem.
I don't think that you could say that a plant-based diet is the right diet for everybody, or that it's good for everybody.
john mackey
I didn't say that.
I don't say it in my book.
joe rogan
Well, you did say it's the only diet that's been shown to reverse heart disease, and I don't really think it has.
john mackey
But the burden of proof is to give me one study where that's not true.
So I've made the claim, prove me wrong.
joe rogan
There's a lot of factors that led to reversing that heart disease.
And I think when you look at all those factors, particularly the eliminating sugar that we know is a toxic substance, the adding of exercise, the eliminating of oils, all these different things that we know are not good for you, I think those are contributing factors.
If you wanted to say, It's been shown that a whole foods, plant-based diet plus eliminating all these toxic things have been shown to reverse heart disease.
I'd be right there with you.
The problem is everybody eliminates that part, including you.
You left that out.
When you said it, you said whole foods, plant-based diet.
You didn't say eliminating all these things that have been shown to cause heart disease.
john mackey
What is a whole foods diet?
joe rogan
You go to Whole Foods and you fill your shopping cart?
john mackey
No.
A Whole Food diet is actual Whole Foods.
Fruits, vegetables, beans.
So it's not sugar.
It's not oil.
So when I say a Whole Foods plant-based diet, I mean no sugar, no refined grains, no oil, none of the shit that you're talking about.
unidentified
Right.
john mackey
That's what a Whole Foods...
joe rogan
Plus exercise.
unidentified
Yep.
joe rogan
These people eliminated all these things that they were eating before that gave them heart disease.
john mackey
Esselstyn's studies were only dietary-based.
It was a whole foods, plant-based, low-fat diet.
And if you read my chapter on heart disease and the whole foods diet, you know what?
I'd love to have this conversation with you some other time.
joe rogan
But even diet-based, you're still eliminating all these toxic things.
john mackey
Exactly.
That's a good thing.
joe rogan
So, no one has proven that a whole foods, plant-based diet, along with those toxic things...
Like, if you had all of the good foods that we know, whether it's animal foods, mollusks, all those different things, if we could just...
We all come to an agreement.
There's things that people eat, that we've been eating particularly over the last few decades in this country, that are just bad for you.
The problem is we get into these ideological discussions of meat versus plants.
And this is where things, people tend to sort of gravitate towards one side or the other and ignore all the different aspects of this conversation.
What we're talking about here with eliminating sugar, exercise.
If you said a whole foods, plant-based diet plus adding exercise and eliminating foods that we know to be toxic is better for you, there's not a single person who's going to argue that.
The problem is everybody says it's a whole food, plant-based diet, that this is what's doing the good.
But I think what's doing the good is a lot of things.
So exercise, eliminating toxic foods like sugar and all those vegetables.
john mackey
Well, a whole foods diet eliminates those things, so that's redundant.
If it's a whole foods diet, it's not going to have sugar, refined grains, or oil in it, because those aren't whole foods.
joe rogan
Understood.
But the problem is, those people were consuming those bad things before.
john mackey
I want to put this challenge to you.
I want you to just, because I think Cole with Esselstyn's work on heart disease is worth looking at for you, because he didn't do anything but diet.
So he didn't have exercise in his program.
He didn't have stress reduction.
He didn't have meditation or anything else in there.
He just had diet.
It was a whole foods, plant-based, low-fat diet.
It did reverse heart disease.
joe rogan
But clearly eliminated all those other aspects.
unidentified
Yes.
john mackey
It's a whole foods, plant-based diet.
So no toxins because those are on whole foods.
Right.
joe rogan
See, that's the thing that's conveniently left out.
You can say whole foods, plant-based diet, but it's not just that.
It's eliminating toxic food.
It's not just eating good food.
john mackey
So what we need to do, what you need to do, or you need to come up with some evidence, or somebody needs to that you can throw in my face, is a whole foods, meat-based diet What eliminates all these toxins will also reverse heart disease.
If you can do that, then I'll...
Remember how we talked about beliefs earlier that they're just a pseudoclose?
You produce that evidence and I'll take off the pseudoclose because I'm actually about being intellectually, having intellectual integrity.
I've come to my conclusions based on my own dispassionate study.
So, if you produce the evidence, I'll probably change my mind.
joe rogan
What do you think people are doing wrong when they're eating a vegan diet and they have all these health problems?
john mackey
They're eating a junk food vegan diet.
They're not eating a whole foods vegan diet.
They're eating...
Junk food.
They're eating all these toxic foods that we're talking about.
joe rogan
But that's not everybody.
Chris Helmsworth was eating like, he was having vegan, he was having like plant-based shakes in the morning and eating whole foods.
And he started developing all these kidney stones and had a lot of problems with oxalates.
john mackey
I have no idea.
If he's having a lot of problems with oxalates, chances are he was eating a lot of A huge amount of greens.
joe rogan
Green leafy vegetables.
unidentified
Sure.
joe rogan
Right.
john mackey
Yeah.
Those eating in two larger quantities, those oxalates in it could cause problems in your kidneys.
So all I know is that I've been doing this diet.
joe rogan
It wasn't Chris Helmsworth.
It was Liam, right?
Yeah.
Which one's Thor?
john mackey
Thor's Chris.
joe rogan
Yeah.
It's the other one.
Liam.
john mackey
Which one's Thor?
I love it.
joe rogan
You got to go that way.
john mackey
Joe, what we agree on, let's go back to what we agree on.
What we agree on is we should be not eating all this crap.
joe rogan
Yes, 100%.
john mackey
We agree on that.
And I think we agree that we should eat lots of fruits and vegetables.
joe rogan
Yes, sure.
john mackey
Then we agree on 90% of it.
Then it's a question of how much animal foods...
Are good for us.
And that's where we may differ.
But probably we're not even that far apart there.
Because I'm saying you can eat some animal foods and have a really healthy, healthy diet and lifestyle.
It's a question of how much.
And at some certain point, I believe that the saturated fats, the cholesterol from the animal foods will begin to clog up your arteries.
And it's not that they cause cancer.
But they can be, I believe, cancer promoters.
joe rogan
You know, there's also been proven there's a big issue with eating cholesterol along with simple carbohydrates and things like processed foods.
john mackey
Since we agree on the simple carbohydrates, we don't have to argue about that anymore.
You and I, we are simpatico.
We sync up on that.
Cut the sugar out.
What about oil?
How do you feel about that one?
joe rogan
Well, I'm not a big fan of vegetable oils.
john mackey
Good.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
Is there any other kind of oil?
joe rogan
Yeah.
I mean, you could have animal-based oils.
I mean, I actually cook in beef towel.
john mackey
Oh, you mean like beef towel and butter.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
I was thinking those weren't oils, but they're fat, for sure.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Well, beef tallow renders down into oil, right?
I think that there's a lot of people consuming a lot of processed shit.
I think this is where we absolutely meet in the middle.
Whether it's vegetable processed shit, like I have a friend who's vegan who eats...
All kinds of wacky vegan delights.
All these little treats and all this.
I'm like, read this fucking ingredient.
john mackey
It's garbage.
joe rogan
Preservatives and nonsense.
But it's vegan, so it's ideologically acceptable.
john mackey
Right.
joe rogan
You know, things fall into these, they fall into these little groups, like this aligns with my religion, so I'm going to eat this.
john mackey
There are plenty on the paleo, keto, there's lots of little groups on the animal food side too.
joe rogan
Sure.
john mackey
So everybody, it's almost like diet.
In fact, this might be a more interesting discussion than you and I batting each other on about this one.
It's interesting to me how many sort of little cults there are in food now.
There are all these little nutritional food cults and everybody thinks they're right.
It's almost like a religion.
Diet is religion.
joe rogan
You're eating one way and you hope you're right.
The problem with eating is that if you're eating something and it's good for you, it takes a while before you feel it.
You're not sure.
And then also there's a mindfuck going on.
You know, a lot of people that get into a certain diet, whether it's keto or other...
I tried keto for a while.
There's certain things that you do where you start mind-fucking yourself that you're on the right path.
And I do feel better.
I feel better.
But, you know, there's people that do that with faith healing.
You know, it's hard for people to decide what makes them feel better.
There's holistic fake medicines that people...
What is that stuff called?
What are those?
Homeopathic.
Homeopathic medicines.
They're fucking sugar pills.
There's literally nothing to them.
And yet people take them and they claim they feel better.
Chiropractors.
Oh, I feel better.
I feel better.
john mackey
Well, I do see a chiropractor and I do feel better.
joe rogan
Do you know how chiropractors were invented?
john mackey
It doesn't matter.
joe rogan
A magnetic healer who came up with it in a seance In the 1800s, came up with this idea that by adjusting people's spines, you're going to fix all these illnesses.
And so do you know that when you go to a chiropractor...
john mackey
You know where doctors came from?
They used to bleed people.
joe rogan
Yeah, but they don't anymore.
You know that, right?
john mackey
Chiropractors...
joe rogan
Doctors, like when you go to a doctor of chiropractic, how much time do you think they spend in medical school?
john mackey
Well, they didn't go to medical school.
joe rogan
They go to zero, zero medical school.
john mackey
How many nutrition classes did doctors take in medical school?
joe rogan
They don't take much, about eight hours.
john mackey
Not much.
joe rogan
But that's why you go to a nutritionist and not a standard American doctor.
But when you go to a chiropractor, they call themselves a doctor.
john mackey
Well, they're a doctor of chiropractic.
joe rogan
Right.
And it was invented by a magnetic healer who was killed by his son.
His son ran him over in a car.
His son was a con man.
And that's the guy who went up spreading this whole religion of chiropractic medicine.
Adjusting babies and shit.
john mackey
You ever see that?
I don't think it's a religion, but clearly you don't go to chiropractors.
I've been.
I do.
I've had good...
I saw a chiropractor today, in fact.
joe rogan
Yeah, it feels good, right?
Crack, crack, pop, pop.
It feels like something.
But this feels good, too.
I just did that with my knuckles.
I chiropracted my knuckles.
john mackey
I can't do that anymore.
joe rogan
You just did it.
john mackey
There you go.
unidentified
Wow.
john mackey
How about that?
unidentified
Wow.
john mackey
Amazing.
joe rogan
But my point is that there's no evidence that that is doing anything to you physically.
If you go to a doctor, okay, and you have a serious issue like you've got a broken arm and you have to put, you know, plates in it and screw it in place and put it in a cast, there's real evidence that that works.
They've shown it.
They've healed people.
john mackey
Yeah, so doctors are pretty good at healing bones.
They're not too good with cancer.
They're not too good with heart disease.
joe rogan
They're a lot better with cancer than they've ever been ever in history.
They're closing in on fixing that.
In fact, there was an article just today that there was, I think it's in Israel, They've figured out a way to have genes that actively go after, like surgically go after cancer.
There was an article in, was it Scientific American?
There was an article today about a fantastic breakthrough in cancer therapy.
CRISPR, yes.
They're using CRISPR to do this, and they figured out a way to actively target the way they described it was surgical.
Revolutionary CRISPR-based genome editing system treatment destroys cancer cells.
Breakthrough may increase life expectancy in brain and ovarian cancer.
See?
So you can't say...
That doctors are not good at treating cancer because they're constantly working on it, and they're making breakthroughs like this all the time.
john mackey
That's just a theoretical breakthrough, and I hope it's correct.
But hey, Joe, here's the reality.
joe rogan
Hold on.
That's not theoretical.
Researchers have demonstrated that CRISPR-Cas9 system is very effective in treating metastatic cancers, a significant step On the way to finding a cure for cancer.
The researchers developed a novel, lipid, nanoparticle-based delivery system that specifically targets cancer cells and destroys them by genetic manipulation.
They practice this on animals.
This is not like a theory.
john mackey
This is something they're actually doing with CRISPR. I'm all for it, but I haven't seen it yet.
Well, you should look around.
Well, here's the reality.
The reality is that we spend 80% of our healthcare dollars on lifestyle dietary diseases.
The doctors can't help us with it all.
You can say there's a cure for cancer.
The best way is to have a strong immune system because we get cancer all the time and our immune system just deals with it.
joe rogan
Yeah, but there's babies that get cancer.
You know, like cancer is a genetic issue.
Sometimes people have a systemic, like their body has a vulnerability to cancers.
john mackey
And the reality is...
joe rogan
You can't say to that baby, suck it up and have a better diet.
john mackey
All biological carbon-based life forms have a propensity or animals have a propensity to cancer.
joe rogan
Right.
But that's why it's fascinating when doctors and researchers can come up with treatments, novel treatments like this.
So to say that doctors and chiropractors are on the same tier...
john mackey
I didn't say that.
joe rogan
But that's the example you used when I was talking about how chiropractors are full of shit.
john mackey
I don't hold doctors in the same high esteem that you do.
I've worked with lots of doctors and they generally don't know what they're talking about.
joe rogan
Oh man, how can you say that?
There's so many doctors that are experts in their field that have helped people.
john mackey
Listen, you were talking about the sugar industry bribing somebody.
The pharmaceutical industry bribes doctors every single year.
All their continuing education are these junkets to golf resorts where they get continuing education about the new wonders of these drugs.
Except for vaccinations and antibiotics, most of these drugs don't cure anything.
They just deal with symptoms.
joe rogan
Well, I agree with you on that, and I agree with you that there is a gigantic problem with pharmaceutical industries having influence over doctors.
My wife's mom's a nurse, and she would tell us stories about how these pharmaceutical companies would take everybody out to dinner in these fancy restaurants and pay for everything.
And they weren't bribing you, but they kind of were.
john mackey
That is kind of a bribe.
joe rogan
It's kind of a bribe.
And they would let you know, like, hey, if someone comes in and they got this problem, we got this.
john mackey
Reciprocity.
I do you a favor, you do me a favor.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's sneaky.
unidentified
Sneaky.
joe rogan
And they'd send you on trips and go on these conferences that these pharmaceutical companies would put together.
No, I agree with you.
There's certainly some influence there.
That the pharmaceutical companies have over doctors.
And certainly there's an unpleasant exchange that goes on between them.
But to say that doctors aren't doing any good is crazy.
john mackey
I didn't say they aren't doing any good.
What did you say?
joe rogan
How'd you say it?
john mackey
I just said...
joe rogan
You don't have a lot of faith in them?
john mackey
Yeah.
I mean, if you have...
Doctors, if you have first aid, if I have cuts and I need stitches, I want an orthopedic surgeon if you have a blown knee.
Absolutely.
Hey, I've had both of my hips resurfaced.
joe rogan
Oh, you have?
john mackey
And I found the best surgeon in America, I think, to do that.
joe rogan
How did you blow out your hips?
john mackey
You know, we don't really know.
Probably, the doctor thought, I played competitive basketball in high school, college, and City League for years.
And he thinks that I was really small when I got to high school.
I was only five feet tall and I grew about a foot in a couple of years.
And he says that there's a disease that when you're growing that rapidly and if you have a lot of contact in the hip area like you might get from martial arts or you might get from football or basketball, from jumping and all that lateral movement, that my hips were not quite in the socket.
So my cartilage wore out prematurely.
And I was bone on bone when I got the surgeries done.
But you know what?
A miracle.
I don't have any real pain in my hips occasionally.
But for the most part, I'm pain-free doctors.
So just to make it clear, surgeons.
I mean, if you need surgery, you need first aid, like a broken bone...
joe rogan
I think we're on the same page.
What you're saying is that doctors over-prescribe medication and under-prescribed healthy living and diet and doing all the things that we know to be positive for the human body.
unidentified
Exactly.
joe rogan
No, I agree with you.
john mackey
Because they don't get enough training in healthy living.
joe rogan
No, that's a fact.
I had a conversation with a doctor where he's telling me you don't need vitamin supplementation.
You just eat a good diet.
john mackey
I'm like, what's a good diet where you're going to get vitamin D3? A business model that I'm kicking around investing in would be a business model where You have doctors and you have a whole team.
So Joe Rogan goes in there.
We do the complete workup of everything about your blood, your total health, and then we begin to customize our ideas to get you to live an extra 10 or 15 years and increase your health span.
How can we optimize Joe Rogan?
How can we optimize your health and well-being?
And a team of people that are working with you, studying you, You're paying a monthly fee to get this.
It's kind of concierge medicine, but not just dealing with getting a prescription from this doc so you can get your Viagra or whatever from the doctor.
It'd be about them optimizing your long-term health and well-being.
I think that is going to be a big future business model.
joe rogan
Then you would have to have people actually go out and do things.
Like, Mike, you're going to have to work out.
john mackey
Yes.
Well, think about it.
We have personal trainers.
We have executive coaches that corporate leaders frequently get.
Why not have a wellness coach with a team of a doctor and wellness coaches who are helping you to optimize your absolute peak performance that you can get?
joe rogan
Have you ever thought about implementing something like that for employees at Whole Foods?
john mackey
I have thought about that.
It's pretty expensive to do it.
joe rogan
Yeah, that would be the problem, right?
john mackey
One thing we do at Whole Foods, though, if you work for the company, we give you a 20% discount for being a team member.
But then we measure your four biometrics if you're interested to get a higher discount if you don't smoke.
If you smoke, we detect nicotine in your blood and you're out.
We don't...
And then it's about your body mass index.
In a man as big as you, we do a height to waist ratio so that you wouldn't be penalized for being...
joe rogan
Yeah, I'm obese.
john mackey
By a BMI measurement, but not by a height to waist ratio.
So we do it both ways and give you the benefit of whichever one you get the best score on.
joe rogan
Why not just do their body fat so you know that it's just muscle?
john mackey
A little harder to measure because of the cost of doing the test.
Calipers.
Yeah, that's...
joe rogan
It's not that big a deal.
And they also, they have things now that electromagnet or whatever it is, they hold on to these handles and it shoots.
john mackey
So maybe we need to examine how we could do that more effectively.
unidentified
Yeah.
john mackey
But we also do...
Blood pressure and cholesterol.
And then based on how you score on those, you can get up to a 30% discount based on your overall health.
So we create an incentive for our people to be out here.
joe rogan
Oh, that's great.
So the people that shop at Whole Foods that work there get a giant discount if they're healthy.
john mackey
They already get a giant discount at 20%.
unidentified
But they can get an additional 10% if they're healthy.
john mackey
We have four different levels.
We call it a bronze, silver, and gold levels.
joe rogan
What do you have to do to get gold?
john mackey
What do you have to do?
You have to have a BMI that's under 24 cholesterol that's either total cholesterol under 150 or LDL under 80, I think.
joe rogan
That's a hot-button debate.
john mackey
Blood pressure.
I think I don't want to have that debate with you right now.
joe rogan
No, it's not me, man.
It's a carnivore MD, this guy, Paul Saladino, had this...
john mackey
And then blood pressure under 115, under 75. 115, under 75. And what do you get if you hit gold?
To get gold, your blood pressure 120 over 80, your cholesterol...
joe rogan
No, but what do you get?
john mackey
Oh, for gold, you're going to get a bronze, silver...
Gold, platinum.
Platinum's the highest level.
You get a 30% discount.
joe rogan
Oh, that's a sweet discount.
john mackey
Gold's $27.
Silver's $24.
And $22 for bronze.
joe rogan
That's nice.
So you incentivize people to make healthy choices.
Do you give them any sort of a gym membership or something along those lines?
That would help, right?
john mackey
That's a good idea.
We haven't done that.
joe rogan
Yeah, what if you had a thing at Whole Foods where you had a small gym attached to Whole Foods where you offered classes for employees?
Take some of that Jeff Bezos money.
john mackey
Yeah.
The problem is we actually do locate close to gyms, and sometimes our storage workout deals with the gyms to incent people to use the gyms.
Oh, that's great.
Having a gym onto every store would be expensive.
We don't even have one in our corporate offices, although we're thinking about...
joe rogan
How do you not have a gym in your corporate office?
john mackey
I think it's the egalitarian culture.
Would it be fair for the people at Global Support to have a gym when the people in the stores don't have one?
joe rogan
I understand, but...
john mackey
We have the same benefits for all our team members, regardless of where they work.
joe rogan
Oh, really?
john mackey
Yeah.
joe rogan
Oh, that's very nice.
john mackey
If you're a cashier at Whole Foods, you've got the same benefits I do.
joe rogan
What do you do personally in terms of exercise and to make sure that you stay healthy?
john mackey
So...
When I was younger, I played competitive basketball, and I was a runner for a long time.
And now I'm a long-distance backpacker.
joe rogan
Ah, you're rucking.
john mackey
Yep.
I've hiked the Appalachian Trail twice.
joe rogan
Have you really?
john mackey
Mm-hmm.
joe rogan
Jesus Christ.
john mackey
Pacific Crest Trail once.
joe rogan
Isn't that like months?
john mackey
The first time I did it, I took a sabbatical, four and a half months.
joe rogan
You took a four and a half month sabbatical to walk?
john mackey
Yeah, it was great.
unidentified
Ha ha ha!
john mackey
It was so fun.
joe rogan
That's so crazy!
john mackey
I made a ton of friends.
The guys I met on that trail, I still go hiking with every year.
Really?
It's kind of like being in the Marines.
You have this deep bonding you have with people.
joe rogan
Well, you know you're walking all the way across the continent.
john mackey
And, Joe, you get so frigging fit.
joe rogan
Oh, and imagine.
john mackey
Even when I got into Maine, I was still getting fitter.
But you know what?
As soon as you stop hiking 10 hours a day, it goes away pretty quickly.
joe rogan
I've traveled with people that work on ranches, and you try to keep up with them, and your ankles want to fall off.
john mackey
Because they're moving all the time.
joe rogan
They're constantly doing it.
And for them, it's not even a workout.
It's a normal part of their everyday life, so their legs are just totally conditioned to be able to hike up those hills and walk constantly.
People don't realize how difficult hiking is.
It's like, what do you do for extras?
Oh, I go hiking.
Like, oh, slacker.
Hiking is hard, man.
john mackey
It depends on how...
It could be if you go for a 30-minute walk around the neighborhood, it's not too hard.
joe rogan
But the Appalachian Trail, that is another level.
john mackey
It's wonderful.
I love being out in nature.
If you ask me what my favorite form of recreation is, it's getting out into nature, some form or fashion.
I love...
I love I love hiking and I love long-distance backpacking and I do it ultra light so I mean it's like I've got it down to a science so when you say backpacking so you're sleeping out there in the wilderness the whole deal yeah absolutely now there's not a lot of CEOs that are willing to do that I don't know but remember the other second time I hiked it I did it and over four years because I couldn't take that much time off when I retire sometime the next few years You're just gonna go hiking?
I'm gonna go hiking a lot.
I'm gonna be out on those trails.
joe rogan
There's so many people right now that are aspiring CEOs that want to be some big-time baller like you, and they hear this like, oh, when I retire, I'm gonna go walking.
They're like, fuck you!
Well, you're supposed to be out there balling!
You're supposed to be on a yacht and...
Doing crazy shit.
john mackey
Well, I may do some of that, too.
They're not mutually exclusive.
I can't hike 12 months a year.
joe rogan
I like that.
john mackey
I can do some of that other stuff, too.
joe rogan
That they're not mutually exclusive.
Now, when you do it, do you ultralight camp, too?
You bring, like, a very light tent?
john mackey
Yeah.
So, like, my base weight before food and water is about six and a half pounds.
And so that's pretty light.
And my tent weighs 12 ounces.
My backpack itself weighs about 14 ounces.
And my sleeping bag is going to weigh about 20, 21 ounces.
joe rogan
And how do you know how much food to bring?
Do you have time out?
john mackey
Like how far you're walking?
You have to plan it out and when you're going to resupply.
But in general, I'm going to consume about a pound and a half to two pounds of food a day.
And so...
I know how much I need to take each day.
joe rogan
What do you bring?
Do you bring bars?
Do you bring whole food?
What do you bring?
john mackey
In the first couple of days, I'll definitely take some whole foods like apples, maybe even some snap peas.
joe rogan
Peanut butters and stuff like that?
john mackey
Yeah, I do a lot of high-calorie stuff here.
I do a lot of nut butters, trail mix.
I also avocados, whole grain crackers, things like that.
joe rogan
But then once you're a few days in, you kind of can't do that anymore because you don't have access to supermarkets?
john mackey
I also might take a sandwich out for the first day or some hummus or something like that.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Why don't you have dudes parachute you healthy foods down?
john mackey
Well, what I will actually do is, what most people do is they mail drops, have somebody mail drop the food.
And what I generally do is, I usually have a car support that I meet up with every once or twice a week and get resupply that way.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
That's a good move.
john mackey
And I have to say, I'd like to take one day a week off.
Go into a town, get a massage, eat some town food, which tastes really good after you've been on trail food for a while.
joe rogan
Is it hard to find vegetarian foods when you go to these towns?
john mackey
You know, I would say it used to be.
I hiked the Appalachian Trail the first time in 2002, so it was pretty hard back then.
But there's plant-based foods everywhere now.
joe rogan
But if you're exhausted, don't you want a meatloaf, gravy?
john mackey
I know this will surprise you, but I have lost my taste for it.
joe rogan
No, it's not surprising at all.
When you get used to certain types of diets, that's what your body seems to crave, right?
john mackey
Yeah, you know, that's one of the big learnings I have about food in general is...
We will like whatever food we eat.
So I've re-educated my palate.
When I was a kid, I ate the standard American diet, junk food, right?
I just ate crap.
Cocoa puffs for breakfast, sweet rolls, burgers and fries, shakes, you know, stuff that still most Americans eat.
And I didn't eat any vegetables at all.
None.
Zero.
None.
Pickles on a burger.
That was it.
Wow.
joe rogan
That's hardcore.
john mackey
Yeah.
But then when I began to wake up dietarily and nutritionally, I taught myself to like every type of plant food.
I like every kind of plant food because once you expose your palate to a food about 10 times or so, you'll start to like it.
joe rogan
Well, I would 100% say that the standard American diet is fucking terrible for you.
I think that it's a real problem in access when people are hungry.
If you're just driving around, they should have some sort of a vegetarian-based fast food that's good for you.
How come no one's figured that out yet?
Because there's all these Jack in the Box and McDonald's.
john mackey
A couple of points.
Yeah.
It's a real problem because statistically now 70% of Americans, adults, are overweight and 42.5% of Americans are obese.
42.5%.
joe rogan
That's crazy.
john mackey
That's crazy.
joe rogan
That's a crazy number.
john mackey
And by the way, it's getting worse.
We have not peaked yet.
It could be 50% in another five or six or seven years.
It's incredible.
joe rogan
So we're escalating.
john mackey
Yes.
unidentified
Yes.
john mackey
We're escalating.
This is a crisis in America.
We are eating ourselves to death.
And it's mostly the things we agree about.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
Junk.
Sugar.
Sugar.
joe rogan
Garbage.
john mackey
Garbage.
Sugar.
So here's what I believe.
Evolutionary is what's happened to humanity.
So when we were out foraging, which we did for tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands of years.
We were hunters and gatherers, or gatherers and hunters.
Our real problem was getting enough food.
That's always been humanity's major problem.
And so we've evolved a palate that craves calorie-dense foods.
We like food that has a lot of calories in it.
It tastes really good.
But we just couldn't get it in nature.
Maybe you could occasionally get You could pull down a wild game occasionally.
You could hunt it, eat it, gorge on it because you'd eat as much as you could because you couldn't preserve it well.
It still was kind of lean, gamey stuff, right?
Because they weren't being fattened up on corn like the pork and chickens and beef that we eat today.
Or we'd get honey, for example.
We might get a couple hundred bee stings if we could get that delicious honey.
But it was just scarce.
And so we crave it.
And that's our problem.
Our genetics are working against us because we can eat calorie-dense food every single meal, every day of our lives, and we just get fatter and fatter and fatter.
And that's our existential dilemma.
Not just Americans, the whole world.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's crazy.
john mackey
We've exported the American diet across the world.
joe rogan
Somebody said this to me once and it really resonated like that this is the only time ever where poor people are fat.
john mackey
Exactly.
joe rogan
There's never been a time in history where you could be poor and fat.
john mackey
It used to be the rich people were fat and the poor people eat the traditional diet and they were not getting enough calories so they were thin.
It's almost reversed itself today.
A lot of the more richer people They hire personal trainers.
They learn more about food.
They eat whole foods, whether it be plant-based or meats or both, and they just take better care of themselves.
joe rogan
It's such a catch-22 for folks, too, because when you're tired and you're exhausted, and a lot of times when people have poor nutrition, they're tired and they're exhausted, it's very difficult to manage your appetite.
When I'm tired, I have to stay the fuck out of the kitchen.
That's with me.
Last night, I was tired.
I worked out.
Pretty hard, and I'm a glutton.
I have a real problem.
I eat way too much.
I just sit down, I'll gorge myself, and I'm like, stop!
Stop!
And I keep eating, especially pasta.
I have a giant problem with pasta.
I will just get fat as fuck if I can eat all the pasta I want.
I just can't stop myself.
If I have a big bowl of spaghetti, I just keep shoving it in my face, even after I'm full.
If I eat meat, I will stop when I'm full.
It's the satiety, whatever it is.
Whatever causes you to be satisfied by consuming it, I'm good.
But fucking pasta, I would just keep going.
john mackey
So if you're eating typical white pasta, that's a very calorie-dense food.
It doesn't have any fiber in it.
I think part of what creates satiety is fiber.
And when you're eating lots of Fruits, vegetables.
joe rogan
Then why does steak make you so satisfied?
john mackey
That's because of the...
Fat also creates satiety.
If we don't eat it too fast, so we get...
It's like fat sends a signal to our systems to say, wow, that's a big load I've got in there.
So fat does a similar type thing.
Fiber does it, though, without the calorie load.
So I eat a lot.
I also eat a lot of food, but I'm just eating a lot of fiber.
joe rogan
I bet if you and I sat down, you'd be astonished at how much I eat.
When you think a lot, what you think of it as a lot, I eat a stupid amount of food, man.
john mackey
Well, you're working it off somehow or another.
joe rogan
Somehow, barely.
I exercise sometimes just to keep from getting too fat, but my problem, my number one problem is pasta.
There is something about that food in particular, pasta with tomato sauce, I can just eat it until I explode.
john mackey
You need to keep that out of your house then.
joe rogan
Yeah, I should, but I don't.
That's also a problem.
I shop when I'm hungry.
john mackey
Yeah.
joe rogan
That's not good, huh?
john mackey
You are just the kind of customer Whole Foods likes.
joe rogan
Yeah, I walk down that cookie aisle.
You guys have some awesome vegan cookies.
john mackey
By the way, this is why you see that you're tempted by these foods that are actually really unhealthy for you.
I think this is good because we all are.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
We are tempted by these calorie-dense foods.
But once you're aware...
The calorie density isn't our friend.
Then we can start making different choices.
joe rogan
You guys have these vegan cookies.
Who makes these goddamn cookies?
It's like auntie somethings.
They come in a brown paper bag.
john mackey
Uncle Eddie's?
Uncle Eddie's?
Vegan cookies?
No.
I think it's an auntie.
unidentified
Maybe I'm wrong.
john mackey
There is an Uncle Eddie vegan cookie.
joe rogan
Is it Uncle Eddie's?
jamie vernon
It's in a brown bag.
joe rogan
Maybe it is Uncle Eddie's.
john mackey
There it is.
joe rogan
That's it.
Those.
There's a peanut butter chocolate chip one.
Why did I think it was auntie?
Because I assume it's a woman because they taste so good.
I assume it's like someone's aunt cooking it.
john mackey
So you'll like this.
The only time I really eat that food is when I'm going on a long-distance hike and trying to get enough calories is a problem because I'm hiking 10-12 hours a day and I'm burning 5,000 calories and I've got to get more calories in me.
My wife says, John, You should admit to the world that really the only reason you like to go backpacking is because it gives you the excuse that you crave to eat crappy food.
joe rogan
That's not crappy.
They're delicious.
They're just not something you should eat all the time.
john mackey
They're just not healthy.
joe rogan
Find the peanut butter chocolate chip ones.
Those are the jam.
I eat those with whole milk.
Big glass of milk and dunk those suckers in there.
I know you don't fuck with milk.
john mackey
I hate to tell you this, but when I need a snack like that, I just eat an apple.
joe rogan
Oh, how boring.
john mackey
Oh, apples are so good.
joe rogan
I love apples.
Listen, I'm just joking.
I eat apples before I work out.
It's my favorite pre-workout food because I work out generally early in the morning, and if I'm tired, I'm like, God, I need something.
I need something.
I almost always go with an apple.
That's it right there.
Look at that.
Those are the ones.
And if you're a vegan, you could partake.
You won't have the milk.
You could drink it with some bullshit almond milk.
What is that crazy cursor you're doing there?
jamie vernon
I just zoomed in instead of taking the way it zooms in there.
joe rogan
Look how good that is.
Those are so good.
Those are very good.
john mackey
Joe, that's your enemy.
joe rogan
It is.
It is my enemy.
john mackey
Uncle Eddie is not your friend.
joe rogan
Well, I don't have it a lot.
But I do.
john mackey
You just said you come home and I start devouring pasta.
joe rogan
Yeah, pasta.
I have that stuff once, maybe twice a year.
I'll eat a bag of those.
Like a whole bag.
That's the problem.
john mackey
What else are you putting on your pasta?
joe rogan
Just garlic and tomato sauce.
That's really what I like.
john mackey
Are you using like a whole grain pasta?
You should use a whole grain pasta.
joe rogan
No, no, no.
I'm eating what's bad for me.
When I'm eating pasta, I generally buy, what is it, double zero pasta from Italy.
I try to buy, I order it from Amazon.
john mackey
Is that Italian in your background?
joe rogan
Yes.
john mackey
So you've got that excuse.
You've got the genetic excuse.
joe rogan
I don't have the desire to cook lasagna and I'm very fortunate that I don't have that desire because every now and then my wife will make lasagna and if I come home, especially if it's late at night and I've just done stand-up and I find lasagna in the fridge, that lasagna doesn't have a fucking chance.
It's going down.
But I know it's bad for me.
You know, I know.
But those, you know, carbohydrates in large, just large quantities like that, I know it's bad for me.
john mackey
You probably won't want to do this, but...
My wife and I, we eat a brown rice pasta.
joe rogan
Oh, Christ.
john mackey
It tastes really good.
And then homemade, delicious pasta sauce.
A lot of garlic and onions and mushrooms.
And then we'll add veggies on top of the pasta, and then we'll drown it in the sauce.
It's really delicious.
It's not that many calories.
joe rogan
That doesn't sound too bad.
I actually like hemp pasta.
I've been eating a lot of hemp pasta lately.
john mackey
I've never had hemp pasta.
joe rogan
It's very good.
unidentified
Really?
joe rogan
Yeah, it's guilt-free.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
So it doesn't feel nearly as bad for you.
But it's something I like about knowing that it's bad for me.
john mackey
Is it really hemp pasta or is it just white pasta that has a little bit of hemp seed in it?
joe rogan
No, it's hemp.
It's green.
It's like a green pasta.
unidentified
Really?
joe rogan
Yeah.
Yeah, there's a few different brands that I purchased.
I wish I could remember the name, but I do not have it offhand.
But again, I buy that on Amazon as well.
john mackey
I love hemp seeds, so I might try that.
joe rogan
Oh, I love hemp seeds.
I love hemp protein.
Hemp protein powder is fantastic.
john mackey
I use hemp seeds in my smoothies.
joe rogan
It's good stuff.
And it's easy to digest, and it's got all the amino acids.
It's one of the best, most complete proteins in terms of plants.
john mackey
I know.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
That's why I take it.
joe rogan
It's super easy for your body to digest.
There's something about hemp protein, like if I know I have to work out in an hour, I hesitate with some forms of protein, like specifically whey.
Like whey, my body doesn't digest that well.
It tastes pretty good.
You can get a lot of delicious whey protein supplements, like powders and stuff, but it's a gas factory.
john mackey
It's...
Maybe it may not agree with your particular bacteria, you know, because of the gas and all that stuff.
You know, we have a microbiome that's increasingly become aware how important that is for our health.
Like people that say they can't digest beans.
I say, well, it's because you've got to feed...
The bacteria that digest beans.
So if you always avoid beans, you're not growing the bacteria to digest the beans.
joe rogan
But aren't there some people that just have a genetic propensity to have an issue?
john mackey
I'm sure there's a genetic propensity for pretty much everything.
So that's a definite yes.
joe rogan
Because I know people that just can't fuck with beans at all.
john mackey
But if I was their coach, I would say, you know what?
Beans are really healthy foods.
So what we're going to do is we're going to first start with lentils.
We're going to have you eat a couple tablespoons of lentils today.
And what will happen over time is you feed the microbiome and you'll get the type of bacteria that will be able to digest legumes.
For example, I haven't had meat in so long that if I probably tried to eat some meat, I probably wouldn't be able to digest it.
joe rogan
You'd probably be in ecstasy.
john mackey
I might have enjoyed eating it, but my digestive system wouldn't be able to handle it because I don't have the bacteria.
I'd have to regrow the bacteria to digest legumes.
joe rogan
I wonder.
It'd be interesting to watch.
You might love it so much.
You might go, what was I talking?
I was talking all kinds of crazy shit about not eating meat.
God, it's so good.
john mackey
You know, I know that you're...
I'm way past that.
I just don't have that craving any longer.
joe rogan
I believe you.
I've got it, though.
I've got it for both of us.
john mackey
And you've got a pasta craving, too.
joe rogan
That's the one I need to get rid of.
john mackey
But here's the thing, Joe.
I think you're just a guy that's, you know, you're just living a big life.
You're a big man.
You're living a big life.
You have a lot of passion.
You have a passion for life.
joe rogan
That's a nice way of saying I'm a glutton.
john mackey
Well, gluttons have a passion for life.
joe rogan
Yes.
john mackey
But if you were just a glutton and you weren't doing all these other amazing things, then that would be a true accusation.
But you're sort of a glutton for life.
joe rogan
I am a glutton for life.
But if there's one part of my life, my personality that I'm embarrassed by, it's my consumption of food that I shouldn't be eating.
Because when I start eating, like, particularly pasta, it's just I know I'm not supposed to do it.
It's the one thing that I know I'm not supposed to do.
I just keep doing it.
john mackey
Well, you have to make a deal with your wife not to have it in the house.
joe rogan
There's no deals.
I'm going to buy it.
john mackey
But, you know...
So you know you're going to do things you don't want to do and you have it around anyway.
joe rogan
Well, while I'm enjoying it, that's the problem.
Is the mouth pleasure during the 15 minutes or so that I'm sitting down eating that bowl?
Probably not even 15. Probably like 5. I'm eating a big bowl of spaghetti.
The mouth pleasure that I get, there's times I'm just going to accept it.
john mackey
And that's worth it to you.
joe rogan
The crazy thing is I will feel like shit for a full day afterwards.
I'm trading five minutes of mouth pleasure for a full day of feeling like shit.
john mackey
You know, I feel that way about good red wine.
joe rogan
Ah, me too.
john mackey
So what I've learned, partly from the watches that measure my sleep, is whenever I consume any alcohol...
I don't sleep as long, and I don't sleep as deep.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
And I see it now.
I see the statistics.
joe rogan
Me too.
john mackey
And when I don't drink, I sleep longer and deeper.
joe rogan
What do you use?
What kind of watch you got there?
john mackey
This is a...
I just switched over to this watch.
This is a...
It's fancy.
It's only a 350. It's a Coros Apex.
joe rogan
Those are really good.
I've heard of those.
john mackey
What I love about this is battery time, since I'm a long-distance backpacker.
This one goes without recharging for about 30 days.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Whoa, how does it do that?
john mackey
It's just got the most amazing battery.
And if I want to use it full GPS mode on my hiking and whatnot, I can get like four full days without having to charge it.
joe rogan
That's incredible.
john mackey
It is.
A lot of those are good for a day when you go with GPS. I know, which is why I switched from the Apple Watch to this one, because it does this.
joe rogan
And does it monitor your heart rate, your sleep, all that jazz?
john mackey
Everything.
Everything the Apple Watch does.
joe rogan
Yeah, I use a whoop strap.
I use this thing, which is good for about five days.
And I do notice that when I drink, my recovery is shit.
john mackey
But I'm telling this story because, to me, the real pleasure of something like red wine is when it's convivial.
When you're doing it with friends...
And you're going to have a long conversation and you're going to laugh and you're going to joke and you're going to tell stories and you're just going to have a lot of fun.
For me, red wine enhances that conviviality and I'm willing to make the trade off.
Occasionally.
I'm not sleeping as well.
joe rogan
How occasional?
john mackey
You know, about every 12 hours or so.
No, I'd say on average, I probably average probably a glass a week.
But I tend to bundle that up.
So it might be, I might not have anything for three weeks and then I might have three glasses of wine over an evening.
joe rogan
Yeah, my problem is once I have one glass...
john mackey
You're gone.
joe rogan
Well, that's the problem, right?
Then your inhibitions are lowered and you're like, look, I'm home.
I'm not going anywhere.
john mackey
What I do in order to not do that is...
I have my glass, and then I don't let them fill it up when it's only halfway, right?
If you're at a restaurant or whatever.
Because then it's sneaky.
Then you lose track of how much you're actually drinking.
You're having a good time, so you just keep drinking.
So I make a decision, okay, I'm going to have fun tonight, but I'm going to have two glasses, or one glass, two glasses, or three glasses.
Never more than that, because it's just not worth the pain then.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's the problem, is you have that third glass.
You're kind of lit.
john mackey
After the third glass, there'll be no stopping.
joe rogan
Then it's four and five, and you're doing shots.
john mackey
Exactly.
joe rogan
Dancing on the table.
john mackey
And having one hell of a fun time, but feeling terrible the next day.
joe rogan
Do you ever supplement with glutathione afterwards?
john mackey
I never have tried that.
joe rogan
Yeah, it helps a lot with your liver's ability to process alcohol.
It makes a big impact.
john mackey
Is that right?
joe rogan
Yeah.
A doctor told me about it, if you believe it or not.
john mackey
Doctors know some things.
joe rogan
Well, this doctor is very good.
Shout out to Dr. Gordon.
john mackey
That's just a glutathione as an amino acid?
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
Yeah.
It aids in your body's ability to process alcohol.
john mackey
Does this give you the excuse you need to drink more alcohol?
joe rogan
No, but it does help.
It doesn't really.
It's not a good enough excuse.
It's still doing a lot of fucking damage.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
But it does help.
And another thing that helps with me is if I drink water and I supplement electrolytes.
john mackey
Yeah, I do that too.
joe rogan
Such a big...
The problem is then you're going to get up to 2 o'clock in the morning and pee.
john mackey
You're just going to pee, pee, pee.
joe rogan
But you've got to deal with that.
john mackey
You know, an interesting thing I discovered about you today is that you're a man who has these very great passions about things.
You are to fend these...
Absolutely.
I don't know if you're going to edit any of this, but we argued probably for 30 minutes about heart reversal with meat and plant-based stuff.
And you're so passionate about it.
You've got to cut the crap out.
You've got to cut the crap out.
And then you start saying, man, I just love pasta.
These Uncle Eddie's cookies are so incredible.
It's like I find that fascinating.
But I also like that about you.
A, you're not a hypocrite.
I mean, you're not pretentious.
joe rogan
I'm not lying.
john mackey
You're not lying.
You're authentic.
That's what I'm looking for.
You're authentic.
The real Joe Rogan shows up, so I like that about you because I like authentic people.
And then you're willing to say, this isn't bad for me, but I choose to do it anyway.
In a sense, you're doing it consciously then.
You're making a conscious trade-off.
Although you say sometimes you lose control, then you go unconscious.
Is that true?
joe rogan
Well, not that bad.
If I do eat pasta, like legitimately, it's no more than once a week.
It's rare.
It's very rare that I sit down and eat a big...
The problem is, once I'm eating, I'm like, fuck it, we're doing it.
unidentified
Ah!
Ha ha ha!
joe rogan
And then I go, but the majority of my diet is very healthy.
The vast majority of my diet.
I eat mostly wild game.
I hunt, so I'm eating elk meat.
john mackey
Are you getting those pigs?
joe rogan
I haven't here.
I have in the past.
I've shot pigs in California, but I've been invited to do it out here in Texas.
But unfortunately, a lot of people in Texas are not eating them.
They're shooting them and then leaving them there, which is, I'm not interested in that.
But I am interested in eating them.
john mackey
You eat what you kill.
joe rogan
Yeah.
I eat, I used to have chickens when I lived in California, but coyotes ate them all.
It was a rough, rough, rough couple of days in the house.
But then, those eggs are fantastic.
And those are, you know, when you have free-range chicken eggs and they have that dark orange yolk.
john mackey
I have eggs.
I mean, I have chickens.
joe rogan
Do you eat the eggs?
john mackey
I don't.
joe rogan
Why not?
john mackey
But I give them away.
I should have brought you some today.
joe rogan
Do you think they're bad for you?
john mackey
The honest answer is I stopped eating eggs for a very bizarre reason, which was that when I first became plant-based, the media got really interested in it.
And I said, well, are you pure?
And I said, no, I eat eggs for my own chickens.
So every time I was talking to the media, they always wanted to ask me about the chickens and the eggs.
And I always had to explain it.
And I got so sick of explaining it.
I said, you know what?
I'm just going to stop eating these damn eggs so I don't ever have to answer this question again.
unidentified
Really?
john mackey
Yeah, really.
joe rogan
I wish I was your friend back then.
I always said, John, fuck those people.
Eat those eggs.
It's like a zero karma situation.
john mackey
You misunderstand.
It's not that they were scolding me.
Oh, I understand.
I was bored was the question.
joe rogan
Yeah, I understand.
john mackey
And so once I just said, no, I don't eat any.
I just 100% plant-based.
joe rogan
I get it.
But you can't alter what you're eating because you don't want to talk about it.
That seems crazy.
Especially chickens and eggs.
It's such a free ride.
john mackey
It wasn't.
joe rogan
You feed them.
They're healthy.
You eat their eggs.
They're good for you.
john mackey
We give them away.
Our friends love us.
joe rogan
Well, that's nice.
But do you ever think about frying one of them bitches up when no one's around?
john mackey
You know, I did the first couple of years, and then I stopped doing it, and I haven't had an egg since, and I haven't missed it.
joe rogan
Bill Burr is a good buddy of mine.
He's a hilarious comedian.
He goes, you want to get fucking confused?
He goes, Google, are eggs good for you?
And then just start reading.
john mackey
I know, that's worse than is coffee good for you.
joe rogan
One of those things where you can find a hundred articles that say eggs are the greatest food in the world and a hundred articles that say eggs are going to kill you.
You have to go through the research.
john mackey
You know why eggs are a paradox?
Because eggs have a lot of good things in them.
That's why they show up.
It's like they're really good for you.
They have a lot of nutrients in them.
But then they also have things that we don't think of as particularly good.
So that's why it's a paradox.
That's why you get opposite stories.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Well, you also just get people that think they're 100% good for you and people that think they're 100% bad for you.
john mackey
Right.
joe rogan
It's like he's just saying like – and it's what we're talking about essentially, like the argument of plant-based versus paleo versus now carnivore, which has been – I had a very compelling conversation with Paul Saladino for three hours where he was talking about the benefits of a nose-to-tail carnivore diet, eating organs, organ meats, and the importance of organ meat.
It's pretty interesting.
A lot of people that eat that way are very healthy, and then a lot of people that eat vegan are healthy.
You could get lost in these conversations and trying to figure out what's right and what's wrong.
john mackey
In a lot of ways, you have to find out what's right for you.
But you have to be kind of...
just fall into confirmation bias because if you do that it's like i've seen a lot of people say you know it's so confusing you you google or eggs good for you and you get such contradictory information so you know i'm just gonna eat what i want yeah then you're doomed then you're just gonna eat calorie dense foods that taste good for you and you're gonna screw yourself up get fat i think having cheap meals is not a bad move And that's what I basically do when I have big bowls of pasta or I sit down with a bag of cookies.
joe rogan
I don't think it's bad to reward yourself, but I think the majority of what you consume should be, it should taste good, but be good for you.
And I think that that's where people need to make their choices correctly.
john mackey
I agree.
I see it the same way.
You say a cheat meal, I think it is just an occasional indulgence.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
Because life is not meant to be purely ascetic.
It's meant to be joyous.
joe rogan
Yes.
john mackey
And we're going to die anyway, so we should have some joy in our lives.
But we'll have the most happiness and joy in life if we're also healthy.
So if we go too far in indulging ourselves, we may be sub-optimizing in the long run.
joe rogan
Now, when you say you're going to die anyway, when you see these CRISPR people and all this crazy genetic manipulation, if they start rolling out some new technology that extends life far into the future, like I've heard that if you can make it to 2050, you're basically going to live forever.
john mackey
Yeah, Ray Kurzweil's been making that singularity, right?
joe rogan
Yeah, he's 2045, right?
john mackey
Since we're extending the lifespan a couple of years, a decade, and it's accelerating, perhaps we'll get to a place where...
So the joke there is when I get to be 100, I'll be able to live forever as I age 100. Well, they don't think that, though.
joe rogan
They think they're going to be able to reverse it.
The idea is that whatever is causing aging, what's causing the deterioration in the quality of your life, that that's all disease.
And it's a disease that we've accepted.
We call it old age.
But really what it is is a slow disease that everyone has.
And if they can get you back to your prime, wherever that would be.
unidentified
Imagine if you could be a 25-year-old man again, John.
joe rogan
Yeah.
john mackey
With the wisdom I have.
joe rogan
Yes!
Living your life.
Just out there free and happy.
unidentified
Yeah.
john mackey
So here's the thing.
There's another theory.
There are a lot of theories, right?
A theory that I favor is that...
DNA made a deal a long, long time ago, or it was a decision that was made, maybe not consciously it evolved this way.
It said, DNA is immortal, but the holder of the DNA is expendable.
And so DNA is immortal.
We're all DNA. And the DNA, we send that on.
The DNA is immortal.
The DNA is in every species.
Every life form has DNA in it.
DNA is what's driving it.
DNA is the immortal being.
And we're not.
And the DNA is programmed.
So they're basically saying, we're going to reprogram the DNA. Maybe.
But...
Every life form ages and dies, and DNA doesn't.
DNA is immortal.
And I think that's the deal that was made.
I mean, that's just what DNA did.
It's like, it's hard to keep these life forms alive, but I can keep the sex part of me alive, and through sex I can spread it, and I, DNA, will continue to live.
That's what I think is going on.
joe rogan
I think that's an interesting way to look at it.
But I think, as you said earlier, that the average age that people died at used to be 30 or whatever it was.
And now, due to our understanding of nutrition and science and medicine, we've extended it all the way to 80 in the Western world.
I feel like that's how we're going to look back at people who died at 80.
Like these poor fucks.
They didn't have genetic engineering.
They didn't understand that as you get older, you have a better understanding.
And maybe you can achieve enlightenment in your lifetime.
You can be free of all the bullshit that holds people back.
john mackey
Yeah, I read a great science fiction series.
The first one was Spin by Robert Charles Wilson.
and it's a long story because it has three novels based in it, but the essence for what it relates to what we're talking about is we sent some people to Mars and they evolved over time and they came back to the Earth and they had developed certain Martian drugs that would extend our lives about another 50 years.
And if you took the drugs.
And they were quickly made illegal.
So the whole black market for them.
And so they called it the thirds.
The thirds because they'd have this other third to their life.
And the thing is, is that humanity became a lot wiser.
Because as we get older, we do tend to get wiser.
I'm a lot wiser today at 67 than I was when I was 40. And a lot wiser at 40 than I was at 20. So if my brain doesn't degenerate through Alzheimer's or dementia, it seems reasonable to think I'll be wiser at 100 than I am at 67. And think if we were able to extend that into 120, 130. A lot of these problems that we have, wars and all this irrationality, would start to disappear because we just become older and wiser as a species.
joe rogan
That's what we would hope.
Or you have Donald Trump.
He's 74 years old.
He's not a young man.
I mean, he says the most ridiculous, preposterous shit.
He says shit that you would cringe at saying if you were 30, right?
Some people live longer.
john mackey
Trump may be wiser today at 74 than he was at 30. Ah, that's a good point.
So we'd have to have a comparison.
joe rogan
I'm sure he is.
I'm sure he is.
Yeah.
You'd have to compare him to his younger self.
That's the thing.
Like, maybe if you give morons enough time, they eventually will get to a point where they're like 160. They just start apologizing to everybody.
john mackey
Maybe so.
joe rogan
Like, I'm so sorry.
I was so dumb.
I didn't know.
john mackey
But, you know, here's the thing about politics.
You can afford to have half the people hate you.
I can't.
I can't have half my customers, half my team members boycotting Whole Foods.
Do you know, Joe, back in 2007, I wrote an op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal on Whole Foods as sort of what we were doing for healthcare.
Because at that time, we didn't have Obamacare wasn't in place yet, and President Obama had asked for suggestions.
So I just sent out what Whole Foods was doing, and the Wall Street Journal put an unfortunate title on that, which is Whole Foods' Answer to Healthcare, or to Obamacare, something like that.
And so it was just an op-ed piece.
It's no big deal.
It's just one guy's opinion, right?
unidentified
Right.
john mackey
So we had...
Hundreds of boycotts around the country of Whole Foods Market.
Facebook, there was a signature page and 350,000 people signed it so they were going to boycott Whole Foods Market.
My board of directors got thousands of letters, emails, texts demanding that I be fired.
And then it set this whole...
I was when the Tea Party was going on, so the Tea Party then was doing boycotts.
And it was like, hello everybody, I just wrote an op-ed piece.
It was just an opinion piece.
It's just my opinion.
I didn't even...
But they attacked Whole Foods.
So what I learned in the lesson, my scar on that one is...
opinion chances are now it's cancel culture back then they were just they were trying to cancel me back then actually yeah it just wasn't a culture thing it wasn't a cultural thing so I've learned to be a little more careful about voicing someday when I retire from Whole Foods I'm going to be unleashed when that happens you got to come back Mackie unplugged.
joe rogan
Listen, get nutty.
I'll help you launch a podcast.
Why not?
I think that that's very unfortunate, you know, because I think having an opinion about something is, especially when a person has achieved a level of success where they've seen a lot of things and they've had to navigate a lot of things.
Those are the people that I want to hear from.
Like, why is someone so upset about a person, just a public person, your opinion?
About an issue that we're all dealing with.
john mackey
I think it's because we talked about before earlier today that some people identify their beliefs with who they are.
So when you express opinions that differ with their beliefs, they experience it as a personal attack.
And that's why they get so upset and angry.
You and I don't do that.
You could be telling me that I think your plant-based diet is full of shit, John.
And it's like, okay, well, you're entitled to your opinion and we'll have to compare notes here.
But I didn't take it personally.
joe rogan
Well, that's evidence that we're still having fun.
As heated as things got.
john mackey
Exactly.
Because we aren't our opinions.
unidentified
Yeah.
john mackey
But we don't identify our opinions as an essence of who we are.
Other people do.
So opinions are very frightening and threatening to them.
joe rogan
Politically, too.
Especially when politics are involved.
And I remember those days of the early days of the Obama administration.
People were so upset at him.
All those Tea Party people.
john mackey
You think we're going to have a civil war in this country, John?
joe rogan
I don't think we are, but it's not outside of the realm of possibility.
It's not good.
It's the most polarizing, I think.
I thought the Tea Party times were tough, but Obama wound up being the successful president and pulled us out of the 2008 crisis, even though there's a lot of dispute as to whether or not he should have bailed out the banks.
At the end of the day, things are going pretty well towards the end of his presidency.
You know, whether people liked him or didn't like him, This is a different animal.
This situation we have now, where Trump is claiming that the election has been stolen, and there's a large percentage of people that think that's the truth.
And then there's other people that are like, you know, they voted for Biden just because they hate Trump.
There's not a lot of people that are really excited about Biden.
john mackey
Well look, in this case, they're either going to be able to prove the claims, or they're not.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Doesn't look good.
john mackey
There's not much time to prove it.
unidentified
Yeah.
john mackey
We'll have to see it unfold and what happens.
So, I don't know.
It's very bizarre.
It's the most bizarre political time of my life, or at least as an adult.
joe rogan
Yeah, as we were talking about earlier, it's this situation that they talked about in The Social Dilemma, this same polarizing moment, but it's more accelerated now than I've ever felt it.
john mackey
Do you feel like you're being manipulated by social media?
I'm just curious.
joe rogan
No, I don't listen.
john mackey
Yeah, I don't either.
Actually, I'm not on any social media.
joe rogan
I'm sure it's manipulating me in some way, though.
I'd be naive to say it doesn't.
It's got to have some sort of an effect on me.
john mackey
You have your tweet, though, right?
joe rogan
Yeah, but I do what I call post and ghost, where I post and then I run away.
I don't read any responses.
john mackey
So you don't get caught up in the hubbub?
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
And I very rarely tweet.
I post things on Instagram and they're very non-political.
Most of it is just interesting things.
john mackey
You know what?
You need to learn the lessons from your social media and apply it to your pasta eating.
joe rogan
I kind of have.
john mackey
Because it sounds like you're very disciplined in the social media realm.
It hasn't taken you over.
joe rogan
I'm relatively disciplined with my diet.
That's why I'm not a fatso.
But I could be.
john mackey
I think you're just working your ass off.
joe rogan
I do that too.
But I have a real weakness.
I just don't let it get me most of the time.
But when it gets me, oh my god, it's embarrassing.
john mackey
Yeah.
I'm going to go a little deeper on that with you and ask you a question.
So is it something that you consciously decide, okay, tonight I'm going to eat pasta, or is it like you get a craving and you just do it?
joe rogan
Usually it's a craving, and usually it's when I'm tired.
When I'm tired, I have a terrible...
john mackey
Like you said, after stand-up or something like that.
joe rogan
I have it late at night.
If I'm writing, even if I'm home writing late at night and I'm done at 1 o'clock in the morning, usually I'm like, just go to bed, stupid.
But sometimes I'm like, come on, let's eat.
john mackey
Did the camera catch that glint in your eyes there?
joe rogan
It's a real glint.
But again, I don't do it enough where I get fat, but I do understand people that do.
I really do.
People think I'm disciplined.
I guess I'm kind of disciplined.
Kind of.
But more than that, I'm scared of not being disciplined.
The work gets done, but it's not like there's this unflappable work ethic that never gets breached.
No.
I have to play tricks on myself to get the work done.
john mackey
Actually, I mean...
I just think you're a man that has strong passions.
And those passions carry you into life.
And when you're full of passion for whatever it is, I think you're probably prodigious in terms of what you do.
But then you have these other periods of time where you're sort of, you know, you're not caught up in the passions and you're just sort of treading water, so to speak.
joe rogan
Am I right?
It's the problem is that when I decide that I'm going to do something I know I'm not supposed to do, like eat too much.
I don't decide it very often, but when I do, it's like it fucks with your self-esteem.
Because you're like, God, I let myself do that?
Like, why did I do that?
john mackey
So you know what you could do that wouldn't mess with your self-esteem is if you just make a conscious decision, I'm going to do this today.
joe rogan
That's what The Rock does.
You ever go to The Rock's Instagram?
john mackey
No.
joe rogan
His cheat days are legendary.
john mackey
So he's conscious about it.
joe rogan
Oh yeah, he lets the world know.
john mackey
He's not sneaking.
joe rogan
Dude, he'll eat stacks of pancakes.
He's an enormous man.
john mackey
He's a big guy.
joe rogan
Ever met him?
john mackey
I have not.
joe rogan
He's huge.
He's so big he doesn't seem like a real person.
He's like a cartoon character.
john mackey
How tall is he?
joe rogan
Oh my god, he's at least 6'5".
john mackey
Wow, he really is big.
joe rogan
I would imagine.
How tall is he, like, officially?
6'5"-ish.
But he's enormous.
Like, 300 pounds.
All muscle.
Giant.
Just giant human.
john mackey
I know.
joe rogan
When you're around him, you're like, that's not a real person.
That's a superhero.
john mackey
Actually, I like The Rock in movies and stuff.
I like his personality.
joe rogan
He's a very inspirational person on social media.
john mackey
I liked Schwarzenegger when he was doing his Terminator stuff in those movies.
I thought he was a great comedic actor.
Yeah, he was great.
I don't think he intended to be comedic.
I just think that kind of became his shtick because he was naturally sort of kind of funny.
joe rogan
Well, The Rock's Instagram, at least once a week or so, he'll post, like, what he's doing.
Like, he'll have, like, a tray of sushi that's as big as his table.
And I'm not kidding.
It's just ridiculous amounts of food he consumes.
john mackey
You know, you can eat a lot of sushi.
It doesn't have that many calories in it.
joe rogan
Well, there you go.
Let people know.
john mackey
Or you can't eat 100 pounds of it.
joe rogan
I mean, he'll eat a plate as big as his table.
But I mean, stacks of pancakes and cookies.
john mackey
Okay, well, those are calorie gyms.
joe rogan
Yeah, he goes off.
But you go to that guy's social media and he's in the gym every single day.
I mean, these go-off days probably help fuel his motivation and his discipline.
Because he gives himself a little mental break.
john mackey
Wow, that, you know, also, that's fascinating.
It may be that he's doing that and that helps because he feels a little bit guilty about it, perhaps.
He says, now I have to double my workout to make up for it.
So it's actually using it to push him.
joe rogan
I don't know.
You know, that guy's so disciplined.
I doubt that's the case.
I think he really has a healthy attitude.
Like, I'm going to take a day and just go fucking crazy.
And then after that's over, it's back to the grind.
I just think he's on the grind literally every day.
You know?
All right.
Dude, we just talked for like four hours.
john mackey
No way.
joe rogan
Yeah, we did.
It's 435. Good.
john mackey
We got a lot of shit you can edit.
joe rogan
We're not editing nothing.
Conscious Capitalism, John Mackey, and Conscious Leadership is also available.
The Whole Foods Diet.
Get yourself some books.
Thank you, brother.
I really appreciate it.
It was fun talking to you.
john mackey
Thanks.
joe rogan
And when you retire and you're ready to talk some shit, come back and we'll have you go off.
unidentified
All right?
joe rogan
Thank you, John.
Appreciate it.
Bye, everybody.
Export Selection