Jan. 20, 2020 - The Joe Rogan Experience
02:33:32
| 
| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| Three, two, one. | ||
| Hello, Barry. | ||
| Hi, Joe. | ||
| Double guns. | ||
| Good to see you. | ||
| Great to see you, too. | ||
| I'm enjoying my turmeric. | ||
| You are, right? | ||
| Superfood. | ||
| Laird Hamilton's on to something, right? | ||
| Laird Hamilton and Gwyneth Paltrow, I guess. | ||
| I've never done the turmeric thing. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| One is a world champion athlete, one of the greatest surfers the world has ever known. | ||
| The other one is a wonderful actress who is Iron Man's girlfriend. | ||
| There's a difference. | ||
| There's a big difference. | ||
| And, you know, a major mogul who determines what people like me want to purchase, buy, and look like. | ||
| She wants you to put vagina rocks in there, right? | ||
| Jade stones? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Jade stones, something like that. | |
| I don't know. | ||
| Maybe there's a placebo effect to that. | ||
| So, we were talking so well before the podcast rolled out. | ||
| I just wanted to just start it. | ||
| We don't have to talk about presidential candidates. | ||
| We don't have to talk about all that. | ||
| But we're in a weird time. | ||
| And to speak to what we were talking about before, we were just talking about how people are so strange. | ||
| There's so much... | ||
| There's just a big disconnect between what people actually think and what they actually say. | ||
| And I think this is, in my life, this is the first time that I've ever really experienced this at this level. | ||
| There's a hysteria. | ||
| Because people are being punished for their real beliefs. | ||
| Instead of having the ability to express themselves and have other people disagree and have some sort of rational discussion... | ||
| This is a strange time where you have to toe the status quo. | ||
| You have to toe the line. | ||
| And I've been trying to figure out what it is, but I think a big part of it is the opposition to Trump. | ||
| I think people's opposition to Trump is so strong that... | ||
| People have lost their minds. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It seems like the people that oppose him, they just want complete and total compliance with opposition, with this different way of thinking. | ||
| Does that make sense? | ||
| Yeah, it's like the stakes are so high that everyone needs to be on side and an active part of the resistance. | ||
| And if you deviate in any way, it shows that you're a squish or that you're actually loyal to the other side. | ||
| And in fact, what that side of things is doing is that they're limiting the spectrum of what's allowed to say so, so, so narrowly that people, I think, are becoming kind of secretly radicalized because... | ||
| In the other way. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| Yes. | ||
| And honestly, like, you're great. | ||
| But I think one of the reasons you're so unbelievably popular is because you just say what you think and you bring other people on here to say what they think. | ||
| And the number of places where that actually happens is unbelievably small and getting smaller. | ||
| It's so strange, and you get shit for it. | ||
| That's what's really crazy. | ||
| I'm a nice person. | ||
| My thoughts on these things that I discuss in the show are well thought out, and I only hope to do good, like legitimately. | ||
| I mean, I mock things, and I'm a comedian, but at the end of the day, I want everybody to be happy. | ||
| I really genuinely do. | ||
| I think that's possible. | ||
| I think it's possible in small groups, right? | ||
| I mean, this is the analogy I always use. | ||
| It was just the three of us on Earth. | ||
| I think we'd get along great. | ||
| We'd have our disagreements, but there would be no war. | ||
| Certainly the three of us wouldn't kill each other, right? | ||
| You, me, and Jamie? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I don't know. | |
| Jamie's a good guy. | ||
| But my point is, why can't we scale that out? | ||
| Why can't we all just get along in larger groups? | ||
| Well, a lot of it is a lack of communication. | ||
| A lot of it is greed. | ||
| There's so many different reasons why you can't scale that to millions and millions of people. | ||
| It just seems like there's no weirder time where things don't make sense and progress seems to be stalled socially than today. | ||
| And like the way that I think about it lately is I feel like normalcy is closeted. | ||
| Like normal people I know that have just like very sensible beliefs are scared to even say those things out loud. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And I think that that is just a sign of deeply unhealthy culture and like it only contributes to this sort of polarization and extremes that we're seeing. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| Yeah, like you were talking about the denial of the biological differences between males and females. | ||
| This is something that people openly want to support today. | ||
| They want to pretend that there is no difference. | ||
| Well, it's like you can both believe that there are two sexes and that there are biological differences between men and women. | ||
| And also believe that if someone asks you to call them by a different pronoun than the one that they used to go by or whatever, that you want to respect that person and that life is so hard and why wouldn't you just go along with that? | ||
| Those are two beliefs that many people I know hold. | ||
| And yet to suggest that gender and sex are only a construct is something that people don't feel like they can express right now. | ||
| That it's only a construct? | ||
| I know a lot of people who feel like they can only say that gender and sex are a construct. | ||
| They're stuck saying that. | ||
| The way you were phrasing it sounded like the other way. | ||
| I'm saying that like two things are possible at once. | ||
| You can believe in biological difference and believe that people should be respected and that if Someone wants to change their gender and that life becomes much more, you know, transgender is real and also sex differences are real. | ||
| And those two things are possible at once. | ||
| I think about that a lot, you know, with my book, with the case of someone like Congresswoman Ilhan Omar. | ||
| It's like Ilhan Omar is the subject of bigotry, not least from the President of the United States. | ||
| And yet Ilhan Omar herself has said some things about Jews and Israel that are themselves bigoted. | ||
| Both things are true at once. | ||
| And yet we're living in a society where it seems like you can only choose one of those two sides. | ||
| Yes, a binary society as opposed to a nuanced one. | ||
| That's what's weird about today. | ||
| It's like we're dealing with the same amount of intelligent people, but they seem to be shackled in their ability to express themselves honestly. | ||
| And so what are they scared of, right? | ||
| Repercussions. | ||
| Right, because those are real, right? | ||
| You look at someone, I think that one thing that's overlooked in this, when we talk about cancel culture, right, and the social ostracism and the It's why Ricky Gervais can be Ricky Gervais. | ||
| It's why J.K. Rowling can tweet what she tweeted a few months ago and survive it because they've already accumulated enough capital. | ||
| The people that I hear from that are completely screwed by it are people like artists and poets and untenured professors who aren't famous and no one knows about and are having to go with a begging bowl on Patreon or Venmo or whatever to get support after they've made a bad joke or whatever it is. | ||
| Yes, yes. | ||
| That is exactly what's happening. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I mean, I'm sure that this is because of social media. | ||
| I'm sure this is the repercussions of having this new form of communication that people don't wield responsibly. | ||
| That these attacks on people, you do them much more flippantly than you would if you were across from someone. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| Of course, because there's no – there's so little shame on the internet because people are disinhibited. | ||
| It's like people say things to me on the internet that are – I wouldn't even mention them here. | ||
| I mean, they're so vile. | ||
| They're disgusting. | ||
| And yet I've seen some of these people in real life and they would never even have the courage to approach me on the street. | ||
| They're not real expressions. | ||
| When they're doing that, they're button pushing. | ||
| They're throwing rocks at glass. | ||
| And this is a good jump off point for your book on antisemitism. | ||
| I reached out to you because Antisemitism, obviously I'm not Jewish, so it's something that has always baffled me. | ||
| There's still hope for you, Joe. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| Can I convert? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| I'll hook you up to some LA rabbis. | ||
| But I would have to go through a lengthy thing. | ||
| You can't just convert, right? | ||
| My uncle converted. | ||
| It's a lengthy thing. | ||
| My uncle Salvatore. | ||
| Salvatore Di Gelando. | ||
| Love it. | ||
| Is he alive? | ||
| Oh yeah. | ||
| He converted when we were kids. | ||
| That was when I first found out about Judaism. | ||
| I was like, what is it? | ||
| I didn't understand what it was. | ||
| We were raised Catholic and I was like, I guess I was probably like five or six when he was converting. | ||
| So he had to take all these classes and go through all the stuff that you have to do. | ||
| Why did he convert? | ||
| He married a woman who was Jewish and she was like, crack that whip. | ||
| My Aunt Jackie, she told them what's up. | ||
| So, when that was all going down, that was the first time I'd ever questioned religion. | ||
| Because I was like, wait, wait, wait, what is that? | ||
| What is Judaism? | ||
| And then they explain, I go, do they believe in God? | ||
| And they're like, yeah. | ||
| Okay, but is it a different God? | ||
| No, it's the same God. | ||
| Jesus was a Jew, Joe. | ||
| Yeah, but that's why I was confused. | ||
| I'm like, well, what is the difference? | ||
| Like, why is there? | ||
| I didn't know there was anything other than Catholic. | ||
| I was five, you know? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I was baffled. | ||
| And I remember thinking, like, how many of these fucking things are there? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And then I was told there were hundreds. | ||
| I was like, oh Jesus, this is a mess. | ||
| And then I went to Catholic school for a year and that really cured me. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Of? | |
| Any idea of religion being legitimate. | ||
| Catholic school was so brutal and so horrible. | ||
| Would you learn about the Jews in Catholic school? | ||
| Nothing. | ||
| Yeah, it wasn't that. | ||
| It was just meanness. | ||
| It was just compliance and fear and we're going to make you sit in a closet on a bed of nails. | ||
| What? | ||
| Oh my God, they used to whack kids in the head and... | ||
| Nuns are some of the meanest ladies. | ||
| Wait, no, no, hold on. | ||
| There was a bed of nails? | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| They would threaten you. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay, okay. | |
| You're going to have to stay overnight and sleep on a bed of nails. | ||
| Yeah, they would just try to scare you. | ||
| And if you cried, they'd laugh at you. | ||
| And oh my God, the meanest ladies. | ||
| There's very few people whose name I remember from being six years old, but Sister Mary Josephine, that bitch. | ||
| I'll remember that bitch to the day I die. | ||
| She was so mean. | ||
| Like, I thought, my parents were getting split up when I was little, when I was five years old, so I was really enthusiastic about God and religion because I felt like, at least in that, there's some sort of, there's structure. | ||
| There's something that makes sense. | ||
| And I remember just being in Catholic school for just a couple of weeks, and I was like, well, obviously this is horseshit, too. | ||
| You know, my parents' relationship is horseshit. | ||
| This is horseshit. | ||
| Like, what is real in this life? | ||
| But it was good for me, though. | ||
| It was good at that time in my life to experience just the hypocrisy and the... | ||
| The meanness of it all. | ||
| The lack of love and the disdain for children. | ||
| The whole thing. | ||
| It was an awful situation to find yourself in. | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| It wasn't that bad. | ||
| Nobody sexually abused me. | ||
| There was nothing horrible. | ||
| No one beat me up. | ||
| But it was enough of a nightmare where it kind of made me legitimately start questioning everything in life. | ||
| So you're raising your daughters with... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Secular? | |
| Yes, 100% secular. | ||
| My wife's secular, too. | ||
| But we talk about things. | ||
| And one of the things that I think is important is that, like... | ||
| I tell them, if you live your life like God is real, it's better. | ||
| Because you live your life by these universal principles that the core good of almost all religions follow. | ||
| Treat each other as if they are loved family members. | ||
| Treat people as if they're you. | ||
| Treat them as if it's you living another life. | ||
| The golden rule. | ||
| Like all those things. | ||
| Don't steal. | ||
| Don't murder. | ||
| People are created in the image of God. | ||
| And whether or not that God exists, if you believe that, you'll treat people really well. | ||
| And if you do treat them, yeah, and if they treat you like that, like you live, the world is better. | ||
| The world is a better place. | ||
| And that's how we, and the other thing that I say. | ||
| Well, I think this, sorry. | ||
| That's okay. | ||
| But honestly, I say honestly, no one knows. | ||
| Like, if you say, I know there's a God, you're not being honest, because unless you know something that I don't, unless you've died and experienced it, and even then, we could chalk that up to a host of neurochemicals that your body releases when it thinks you're dying, and some of them I've actually taken before, so I know what the experience is like. | ||
| And if you say, there's no God, you don't know what you're talking about either. | ||
| You really don't know if there's no God. | ||
| No one knows. | ||
| No one knows what even the concept of God is. | ||
| You're talking about thousands of years of trying to decipher experiences and things that are translated from one language to another, from different phonetic languages. | ||
| It's very strange to try to tell people that you know something for a fact when you've never experienced it. | ||
| And this is what we talk about. | ||
| When I talk to my children, I don't say there's no God, God's bullshit, religion's bullshit, everyone's lying to you. | ||
| I just say no one really knows, but it gives people comfort. | ||
| It makes people feel better. | ||
| And then there's a lot of things that are really good about church. | ||
| And one of the things that's really good about church is the community. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| I mean, this to me connects to the thing that we opened by talking about, which is polarization and tribal, you know, the tribal politics we're living in. | ||
| I think you've had Jonathan Haidt on the show and his book, The Righteous Mind, is brilliant about this, that we were evolved to be religious creatures in a certain way. | ||
| And what happens when we lose religion? | ||
| That impulse goes somewhere. | ||
| And I think that impulse has gone into, you know, politics and the culture war. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| You know? | ||
| It's like, why are the stakes of that so unbelievably high? | ||
| Because that is sort of the operating system that people are organizing their life around more and more. | ||
| I think you're 100% right. | ||
| I think it's the Protestants versus the Catholics. | ||
| But it's like, what do we do, right? | ||
| Because we're not going to go back to convince people that are unconvincible that they're... | ||
| I think fighting for the idea of God is sort of a losing argument in the culture. | ||
| So how do we retain the good things that came from religious structures in a post-God age? | ||
| I think that's a huge question. | ||
| Well, what are people really wary of? | ||
| One of the things they're wary of is the recluse, right? | ||
| We're wary of the Unabomber. | ||
| We're wary of that guy who lives in the woods and doesn't... | ||
| The isolationist who doesn't need anybody else. | ||
| They're by themselves. | ||
| Like, well, that person doesn't follow by the rules of our community. | ||
| What are we comfortable about? | ||
| We're comfortable about friendly neighbors. | ||
| We're comfortable, like, hey, you need help? | ||
| You know, you need me to help dig you out of the snow? | ||
| Do you need this? | ||
| Do you need that? | ||
| Like, that's what we love, right? | ||
| Because then... | ||
| And we love people that share our values, right? | ||
| We like to live in a community of shared values. | ||
| Because then, like, you're all... | ||
| We're all comforting each other. | ||
| We're all saying we're all in this together. | ||
| We're going to have hardships. | ||
| We're going to have good times. | ||
| But we'll have more good times. | ||
| We'll be able to get through the hardships if we operate together with similar values. | ||
| Yeah, but we're kind of – we're not living in the age of the Unabomber, but we're certainly living in an age where people are completely isolated. | ||
| You know, everyone on the campaign trail is talking about the diseases of despair and how the lifespan in this country has gone down for the past three – life expectancy has gone down the past three years. | ||
| Because of Trump? | ||
| It must be! | ||
| Because of opioids, because people are out of work, because factories are closing, because we're going through whatever Andrew Yang calls it, the fourth industrial revolution, because of globalization, because we're living through what I think will be remembered as an unbelievably transformative time, and Trump is only one data point. | ||
| He's a symptom and he's a catalyst, but he's not the whole picture. | ||
| And to see him as the whole picture, I think, is just completely missing the moment that we're in. | ||
| Well put. | ||
| Very well put. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I really think you just nailed it. | ||
| I really think that's a lot of what's going on here. | ||
| And I think, I mean, what you said about people enjoying when people can speak their mind. | ||
| When people see someone like Ricky Gervais get up at the Golden Globes and say, Yes! | ||
| Yes! | ||
| Yes! | ||
| Or like Chappelle's. | ||
| Or Bill Burr's. | ||
| Yeah, but the Chappelle one was so good because if you looked at Rotten Tomatoes, right, the critics rating of it was something like 20% favorable. | ||
| No, it was zero at first. | ||
| It was zero. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And then they opened it up to the public, but they only had like five woke critics. | ||
| But the public was like 99%. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And it's like we just keep living that out again and again and again. | ||
| And I just wonder how that resolves itself. | ||
| Or maybe it doesn't. | ||
| It does. | ||
|
unidentified
|
How? | |
| It resolves itself through conversation like this. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That's really what it is. | ||
| Where I come to meet the common man? | ||
| Yeah, I'm the common man, basically. | ||
| I mean, when we talk and people listen to reasonable discussion, then they feel more emboldened to have reasonable discussion of their own. | ||
| Maybe perhaps in private, maybe they have to fucking put tinfoil over the windows and bolt the door shut and make sure that they can talk honestly. | ||
| But that's insane. | ||
| Yeah, it is insane. | ||
| Like, we're living in the freest society. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mm-hmm. | |
| In human history, and people are acting like the Stasi is looking over their shoulder. | ||
| Yes, because it is. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Because it is. | |
| The social media Stasi. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes! | |
| It is, yeah. | ||
| Yeah, that's for real. | ||
| Stay off social media, folks. | ||
| No, for real. | ||
| Look, if I wasn't promoting comedy shows and podcasts and the like, I don't think I'd be on it. | ||
| I would definitely be off of it. | ||
| I mean, I'm on it now, but I'm on it like a post it and leave it thing. | ||
| I don't pay attention to anything anymore. | ||
| To use the luxury of that. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| You know what I mean? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I think about like what would it look like if all the journalists at the Washington Post, the New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal were banned from being on Twitter? | ||
| No, for real. | ||
| Because like what happens, right, is like it's this circular thing where we all know the landmines, right? | ||
| Like the things we don't want to touch, like the hills we don't want to die on. | ||
| And it's – what's scary about the Stasi-like atmosphere of it is – Like, my job is to write opinion columns and commission other people to do that. | ||
| And yet I feel the self-censoring even before I've written, right? | ||
| Where I'm like, wait, I don't want to die on that hill. | ||
| I don't want to die on that. | ||
| Is that really the battle I want to take on? | ||
| I should probably just stick to this topic instead of that topic because I know if I do that topic, like, I know what awaits me. | ||
| It's like, why would I willingly go to the guillotine? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right? | |
| Yes. | ||
| And people pretend the reputational smears have no cost. | ||
| They're insane. | ||
| Well, that's what's weird about your position, because you're an opinion writer. | ||
| Right. | ||
| I mean, that's what you do. | ||
| Correct. | ||
| And you're not allowed to give your honest opinion in a lot of people's eyes. | ||
| They want you to be compliant with woke culture. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And I think one of the reasons that I get in a lot of trouble or I'm provocative or whatever the words that go before my name are whenever I'm mentioned now, controversial, is because I think more than other people, I refuse to follow the rule. | ||
| Because what's the point? | ||
| Like, we're all gonna be in the ground anyway. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| Like, I'm not gonna waste my life following some fake rule determined by random people on the internet. | ||
| No, and this desire for you to comply, I mean, this is part of the game that's going on. | ||
| When people don't have control of their own lives, they love to control other people's lives. | ||
| And one of the things that happens when you have an opinion that does not follow the, you know, whatever the path has been clearly grooved for us to, when you're supposed to have very specific ideas about these very clearly defined subjects, when you deviate from those and people start attacking you, What they're trying to do in many... | ||
| There's a lot of what they're trying to do. | ||
| It's nuanced. | ||
| But one of the things they're trying to do is they're trying to get you to listen to them so that they have some power. | ||
| They feel powerless in the world. | ||
| And if they can push your button, if they can break your glass, then they have some power. | ||
| But they're also trying to... | ||
| Issue a warning, right? | ||
| They're issuing a warning to the people in their group saying, if you deviate, we're going to do to you what we're doing to her right now. | ||
| And it's going to be relentless. | ||
| And, you know, and it's just like, what's sad about it is like the number of young people I know who are so talented and, you know, are heterodox or just independent-minded people, like liberals, they don't. | ||
| Two is not to become public people. | ||
| Like, they decide not to go into journalism, not to do comedy, not to do any number of things because, like, why would you choose to, you know, be in that arena if this is what it means? | ||
| You know, one of my favorite stories, to speak to this, is that woman who was in Canada who was a trans woman who still has her penis and balls and went to a bunch of different waxing places. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I don't know about this. | |
| You don't know about this? | ||
| No. | ||
| Closed down these immigrant waxing places because they wouldn't wax her male genitalia. | ||
| I miss this. | ||
| It wound up going to court and she wound up losing. | ||
| But these people lost their businesses. | ||
| You know, Canada is very different than the United States. | ||
| Like nicer? | ||
| They're very nice. | ||
| Like 20% nicer. | ||
| But they also have weird human rights laws. | ||
| This is what Jordan Peterson was rallying against with these compelled speech laws. | ||
| He was explaining it in a way that didn't make sense to us because we have freedom of speech in America. | ||
| But they don't have freedom of speech in Canada. | ||
| Or in England, yeah. | ||
| Right. | ||
| It's different. | ||
| And with this woman, when she went to these places and was saying, hey, you know, you have to wax my dick and balls. | ||
| And they were like, no, we do Brazilian wax on women. | ||
| And they're like, you're a bigot. | ||
| And then she turned out to be a complete fucking lunatic. | ||
| I mean, if you follow her in the news now, like assaulting people and all sorts of other stuff. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| But still, biologically a man, and has all the parts, and this was the line in the sand. | ||
| This was like, okay, here's your case. | ||
| Now you've got one. | ||
| Because this is not just about discrimination against a trans woman. | ||
| And this is some new thing. | ||
| This is the very real possibility that some trans people – trans people are human, right? | ||
| Some trans people are fucking crazy. | ||
| You got one. | ||
| Here you got one. | ||
| Now, are you going to treat this like an abusive, insane person? | ||
| Or are you going to treat this like trans people have these undeniable rights and privilege because of the fact that they've been – Put in this marginalized position by our society that you have to look at them in a very specific way. | ||
| And if you deviate at all, you will be punished. | ||
| And that's what happened to these poor immigrants. | ||
| They lost their business. | ||
| I completely missed this story. | ||
| That was a great story. | ||
| Jessica Yaniv, I think is her name. | ||
| Where did you read this? | ||
| Oh my god, everywhere. | ||
| It's not in the Times. | ||
| Well, the Times needs to step up. | ||
| You guys are covering Bernie and Andrew Yang. | ||
| I missed it. | ||
| I missed it. | ||
| No, we're barely covering those people even. | ||
| Who do you like for president? | ||
| Well, I just, I was just telling Jamie that I was in, I spent New Year's in New Hampshire with Andrew Yang and the Yang gang, because I'm writing about him. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And I have to tell you, like, I'm really not just saying this, the power of the, like, the, what I'm calling, like, the Rogan effect, it was insane. | ||
| Like, I went down the line waiting to get into this bar, it was snowing outside, and I just, like, asked everybody, how'd you hear about Andrew Yang? | ||
| Like, 80% of them was from your podcast. | ||
| It was really unbelievable. | ||
| I like his energy. | ||
| I don't know if I agree with him. | ||
| I don't have strong views about UBI or what he calls the freedom dividend, $1,000 a month. | ||
| I don't know what I think about that. | ||
| He has all these views about things. | ||
| I don't really know if I agree with him on most of his things. | ||
| Against circumcision? | ||
| You don't agree with that? | ||
| No. | ||
| Really? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You're cutting baby dicks? | ||
| I'm not like passionate about that. | ||
| Are you? | ||
| Yeah, people lose their dicks. | ||
| A lot of kids. | ||
| Every year. | ||
| Do you know children die from that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
They lose their dicks? | |
| Yes. | ||
| All the time. | ||
| It's very common. | ||
| Really? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Like multiple children per year lose their penis from an unnecessary antiquated operation where you cut off their dicks to make it look different. | ||
| You're cutting skin off of their dick and they wind up getting infected and they lose their dicks. | ||
| I mean, it doesn't happen all the time, but it happens enough time where you go, this should never happen. | ||
| This is a completely unnecessary operation. | ||
| Robert Baker estimates 229 deaths per year from circumcision in the United States. | ||
| Bollinger estimates that approximately 119 infant boys die from circumcision-related each year in the US, 1.3% of all male neonatal deaths from all causes. | ||
| There are several case reports of death in the medical literature. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It's not simple. | ||
| You're cutting skin. | ||
| Skin is an organ. | ||
| You have an unnecessary... | ||
| I'm circumcised. | ||
| You have an unnecessary operation that you're doing to an infant. | ||
| And it's decorative. | ||
| And I had a joke about it. | ||
| And you don't buy any of the studies about how it prevents STDs and... | ||
| No. | ||
| No, I don't. | ||
| Wash your dick. | ||
| I cannot believe we're talking about this. | ||
| We should be talking about it. | ||
| Well, why not? | ||
| Kids are dying. | ||
| How many of them have to die before we say this is a... | ||
| Ancient, ridiculous ritual. | ||
| It doesn't make any sense. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| I've seen the arguments for and against, like that it prevents STDs. | ||
| Like, look, you know what prevents STDs? | ||
| Condoms and abstinence. | ||
| That's what prevents STDs. | ||
| And in some cases, vaccinations. | ||
| This is what prevents STDs. | ||
| Circumcision is ridiculous. | ||
| It doesn't even make any sense. | ||
| Okay, I cannot believe I stumbled into this, because I was talking about Andrew Yang. | ||
| You fucked up. | ||
| I guess I did. | ||
| I didn't know this was like a strongly, you're an intactivist, is that what they're called? | ||
| Yes, whatever, intactivist, that's a good way of putting it. | ||
| I've never heard that expression, but that's exactly what I am. | ||
| Yeah, don't cut baby dicks. | ||
| It's real simple. | ||
| When you say it that way, people go, yeah, that sounds gross. | ||
| When you say, oh, circumcision, like, oh, what a wonderful ritual, and it's symbolic of your journey until, get the fuck out of here. | ||
| You're cutting baby dicks. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| It doesn't make any sense. | ||
| I mean, it's not as disgusting as what they do to women's clitorises in certain Muslim communities. | ||
| Well, that makes it impossible to have an orgasm. | ||
| It's a different reason for doing it. | ||
| But you're mutilating a kid. | ||
| You're just doing it in a way that's okay. | ||
| If you cut a piece of my earlobe off, I'm going to be all right. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I'm from a family of four daughters. | ||
| I have not thought deeply about I did not know that statistic until you put it up there. | ||
| Not good. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Most people don't know it. | ||
| And I've talked to people who have had immediate family members who have had horrible illnesses or injuries from circumcision. | ||
| It's terrible. | ||
| It's an organ. | ||
| Your skin's an organ. | ||
| For them? | ||
| For vaccines. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| A hundred percent. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Why would you be nervous to talk to me about that? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's science. | |
| Because I'm like, what am I stumbling into here? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| Look, vaccines are established. | ||
| I had Dr. Peter Hotez on who is- Who's that? | ||
| He's out of the University of Texas. | ||
| University of Houston? | ||
| Is that where he's from? | ||
| But what he's famous for is treating and making people aware of tropical illnesses and vaccine safety and vaccine health. | ||
| And also just someone who uses education to dispel a lot of these anti-vax rumors and the anti-vax movement to try to explain. | ||
| Like, this is why there's so many people. | ||
| This is why we're so healthy. | ||
| This is why there's no smallpox. | ||
| This is why we haven't had these fucking horrific diseases ravaged. | ||
| This is why measles is making a comeback because of ignorance. | ||
| And because there's this unbelievably strange coalition of, like, lefty Waldorf family homeschool people with, like, ultra-Orthodox Jews who believe that they're, like, remnants of pigs in the vaccine. | ||
| And they're coming together to do what they just did in New Jersey. | ||
| which is like… I think New Jersey was close to passing a law to end the religious – there's religious exemptions for vaccines in a bunch of states still. | ||
| And New Jersey was very close to – which has had a bunch of outbreaks to ending the religious exemption. | ||
| And then you had these very strange bedfellows come together and lobby against the law and it lost, which is really upsetting. | ||
| I do not think there should be a religious exemption for vaccines. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Yeah, vaccines are a strange one, right? | ||
| It's like, should you force someone to put a chemical into their body? | ||
| Yes, because it's protecting all of our lives. | ||
| But that is why it's an interesting one. | ||
| It's a very unusual one because it's a very rare time where you're talking about something that if you do put it in someone's body and it is effective, it will stop a deadly pandemic from spreading. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| So how do we act as a community? | ||
| How do we act as a culture when it comes to that? | ||
| And then there's also with everything. | ||
| People think there's conspiracies with every fucking thing that ever happens on this earth. | ||
| Conor McGregor just destroyed Donald Cerrone in 40 seconds. | ||
| There is an entire community of people online right now Thinking that that was a setup, and that it was a fake fight, and that they had planned it all in advance, and this is just to make money. | ||
| I mean, I'm talking about volumes of writing. | ||
| I mean, people just page after page after page talking about things that don't make sense about the fight. | ||
| Like, this is just what people do. | ||
| They look for conspiracies in everything, whether it's vaccines or politics or… Or Jews. | ||
| Or Jews. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Oh, presidential candidates, though? | ||
| Yes, for sure. | ||
| Or you want to go just? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Everything. | |
| Presidential candidates. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I love Yang's – what I was going to say about Yang before we got into cutting off baby days. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Love his energy. | ||
| Like him as a person a lot. | ||
| He's like, he's real. | ||
| You know, he's like, most politicians are aliens, and he's not. | ||
| And it's so refreshing. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I like him a lot. | ||
| I like him a lot. | ||
| He also said that police officers should have a purple belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, which I completely agree. | ||
|
unidentified
|
He has a lot. | |
| Like, I went to look at the policies on his page. | ||
| Like, who is this? | ||
| Super rational. | ||
| He's great. | ||
| And one of the things that is so refreshing about him is that I don't know if I've been in a room in the past year with so many former Bernie and former Trump people, which are a lot of his supporters. | ||
| Disaffected, disappointed Trump people and then people that supported Bernie in 2016. And there's just, I don't know, like when you hear him talk, the villain of his stump speech is not Donald Trump, even though he hates Donald Trump. | ||
| The villain is Amazon and Big Pharma and, you know, automation, like the things that are actually... | ||
| He's like a Paul Revere for automation. | ||
| He's like, hey, your fucking jobs are going away. | ||
| Your jobs are going away. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| He's a great guy. | ||
| Liked him. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| And then I also feel like I've gone on this emotional journey with Biden where at first I'm like... | ||
| Like, I liked him. | ||
| Then I'm like, ugh, he's old. | ||
| He's kind of losing it. | ||
| No way he can win. | ||
| And now I feel like I've gone back to maybe liking Biden. | ||
| Let me put you back on track, because he's way too old. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I know. | |
| It's not just that he's too old. | ||
| He's not coherent. | ||
| He's falling apart. | ||
| Like, hasn't he had a stroke or something? | ||
| I know. | ||
| I don't know if he's had a stroke. | ||
| He's had a lot of plastic surgery, that's for sure. | ||
| Has he? | ||
| Look at his face. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Trying to look younger. | ||
| And the caps and I don't know. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But he has like blood pressure issues, right? | |
| I think the candidate, I will be very surprised if the candidate is not Bernie, both because of the fundraising and And because of where he is in the polls, and because, and this is the most fundamental thing, the energy in the country right now is a populist energy. | ||
| And I just don't think that a moderate, like the ones that I like, like a Klobuchar or a Biden, can capture the energy of the base. | ||
| I think that energy is just really with Bernie. | ||
| You have more faith in the Democratic Party than I do. | ||
| I think they're going to fuck up and put Elizabeth Warren in, and I think Trump's going to chew her up. | ||
| Don't you think Trump would—okay, but if it's Bernie versus Trump, who wins? | ||
| Because I think Trump still wins. | ||
| I think you're always going to have a hard time when someone's the incumbent, right? | ||
| You're always going to have a hard time when someone is the sitting president who is— It's extremely controversial, extremely polarizing, but also we're in a great time economically. | ||
| That's hard for people to deviate from. | ||
| It's hard for people to deviate from good economy. | ||
| When you look at the stock market, when you look at… Yeah, but most people don't have stocks. | ||
| No, it's true. | ||
| It's perception, though. | ||
| It's a perception. | ||
| You look at unemployment. | ||
| Unemployment rates are very low. | ||
| There's a lot of things that you could point to. | ||
| The standard issues that you point to. | ||
| And then you deal with all this luniness on the left that Trump is the complete opposite of. | ||
| He's the antithesis. | ||
| He's the middle finger to all of it. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Yeah, when he got in office, I said political correctness just got hit with a missile to the dick. | ||
| That's what it was like when that guy got in office. | ||
| Like, what the fuck? | ||
| After all that grab-the-pussy stuff and all the craziness, the fact that he was able to weather that storm, and it didn't even seem to shake him. | ||
| I mean, like you said, he could shoot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue. | ||
| I kind of think he actually could. | ||
| Yeah, well, as long as the person was a dick. | ||
| As long as the person he shot was a real asshole. | ||
| Like, well, you know, do we really need that guy? | ||
| No, we need Trump as president. | ||
| It's going to be hard. | ||
| It's always hard to get someone out of office. | ||
| I mean, what sunk George H.W. Bush was Ross Perot, and a lot of people forget that. | ||
| Ross Perot, this eccentric billionaire, got on television and bought an entire half hour of regular primetime television and put on this display of why you're getting fucked and explained taxes to you and explained... | ||
| So is Mike Bloomberg going to be the Ross Perot of 2020? | ||
| No, he's not as charismatic and he's not very well liked. | ||
| He doesn't make sense. | ||
| He's wasting his time. | ||
| I just think he's the opposite of what people want right now. | ||
| Yeah, they don't want a billionaire. | ||
| No. | ||
| No, they don't want that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They do. | |
| What Bernie stands for is a guy who, look, you could dig up dirt on every single human being that's ever existed if you catch them in their worst moment, and you magnify those moments, and you cut out everything else, and you only display those worst moments. | ||
| That said... | ||
| You can't find very many with Bernie. | ||
| He's been insanely consistent his entire life. | ||
| He's basically been saying the same thing, been for the same thing his whole life. | ||
| And that, in and of itself, is a very powerful structure to operate from. | ||
| Yeah, and he's addressing the thing that people are most obsessed with right now, which is economic inequality, and he's really consistent on it. | ||
| Did you see him here? | ||
| Did you see him? | ||
| Yeah, of course I did. | ||
| He was so normal. | ||
| He's normal. | ||
| He's so normal. | ||
| Did you find him winning, though? | ||
| Like, did you like him? | ||
| I liked him a lot. | ||
| Because I feel like there's a huge division in people I know. | ||
| Either they love him, or they really, really think that he's, like, gruff, obnoxious, all of that. | ||
| Well, I know you don't like Tulsi. | ||
| I love her. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I know you do. | |
| I love her. | ||
| I think she's awesome. | ||
| I love her. | ||
| I love Bernie, and I love Andrew Yang. | ||
| And I talked about Tulsi and Bernie the other day, but I forgot to bring up Andrew Yang. | ||
| I apologize for that. | ||
| I said everybody else can eat shit. | ||
| I didn't mean Andrew Yang. | ||
| I do like him. | ||
| It was just a mistake. | ||
| What is the Tulsi appeal for you? | ||
| Well, I think she, first of all, is someone who's served twice overseas, been deployed twice, and understands the actual cost of war. | ||
| Worked in, you know, medical units. | ||
| Saw people murdered and shot down and destroyed by war. | ||
| And she wants none of it. | ||
| She wants us to have less interventionist foreign policy decisions that affect people's lives and send our young brothers and sisters over there to get killed. | ||
| That's one thing. | ||
| She's... | ||
| A person who served in Congress. | ||
| She understands how it works. | ||
| She's a very nice, friendly person. | ||
| I believe her. | ||
| When I talked to her, she's very genuine. | ||
| And if you want a woman president, that's what you want. | ||
| You want a young woman who has served in Congress, who has served overseas, who's been deployed. | ||
| She makes a lot of sense with a lot of things she's saying. | ||
| That's what I like about her. | ||
| Got it. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Klobuchar? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Zero opinion on her. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Yeah, I like her. | ||
| Zero charisma, though. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I haven't been paying attention. | ||
| Look, there's only so much time you have in a day, and only so many days in your life. | ||
| And until things start really popping where I have to pay attention to her, I'm just like, she hasn't got a shot. | ||
| But who are you going to vote for in the primary? | ||
| I think I'll probably vote for Bernie. | ||
| Interesting. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Because I think Bernie and Tulsi together would be a fucking devastating combination. | ||
| I really do. | ||
| I don't know if they'd ever work out together. | ||
| I don't know if that's possible. | ||
| But I think them together might work. | ||
| That might work. | ||
| That might get enough people to go, you know what... | ||
| This is all just too fucking crazy. | ||
| Let's try something different. | ||
| And what do you make of the people that are speculating that Tulsi is going to run as a third party or all that? | ||
| She's not going to. | ||
| I don't think she's going to. | ||
| I don't think she has any plans to do that. | ||
| But that was the worry that she's a Russian asset. | ||
| That was one of the things that Hillary Clinton had said. | ||
| I found that very strange. | ||
| Hillary Clinton was calling her a Russian asset. | ||
| You found it strange that Hillary Clinton said that? | ||
| I do, but I'm not a fan of Hillary Clinton. | ||
| I'm not a fan of that whole – they're a part of a different world, right? | ||
| They're a part of a different world where corruption was open and accepted and it was a part of the program. | ||
| If you pay attention to the Clinton Foundation, if you pay attention to the amount of money that they would get paid to speak to bankers and the fact that they wouldn't release the transcripts – that was the great thing about Bernie during the 2016 election. | ||
| Release the transcripts! | ||
| Let's see those transcripts! | ||
|
unidentified
|
When I watch him, I'm looking at Larry David. | |
| It's so strange. | ||
| I only see Larry David. | ||
| Larry David does a fucking amazing job as him. | ||
| The meld, it's very weird. | ||
| I was watching the weekly episode of when the Times endorsed the candidates or the two women and it was very strange. | ||
| I was thinking that I'm literally looking at Larry David. | ||
| But him as a human being, when I was hanging out with him, I believe in him. | ||
| I like him. | ||
| I like him a lot. | ||
| I know that... | ||
| The most scandalous thing about him, the Daily Mail, was like, Bernie Sanders. | ||
| He requests his junior suites in his hotels to be 65 degrees, and he asks his staff to collect honey packets. | ||
| This is like for his tea. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Like... | |
| Cool. | ||
| That's hilarious! | ||
| That's all they got on him! | ||
| No, I mean, the thing to get him on is, like, you know, his apologetics for Soviet Union, for Nicaragua. | ||
| I mean, his foreign policy stuff. | ||
| It's just a disaster. | ||
| And that is what Trump will crush him on. | ||
| I mean, Trump wants Bernie to be the candidate. | ||
| You think so? | ||
| Yes! | ||
| You don't think he wants Warren? | ||
| I mean, Warren would be great, too, because then he has Pocahontas. | ||
| But I love the fact they said that it's racist. | ||
| When he calls her Pocahontas, it's racist. | ||
| It's a fucking Disney movie. | ||
| A lot of people. | ||
| Oh, yeah, but also, I mean, the moment that I gave up on Elizabeth Warren's political judgment is when she decided to publicly go through... | ||
| The 23andMe or whatever it was to prove that she was in fact partially Native American. | ||
| It was like, just dude, back off from this thing. | ||
| Well, she had to. | ||
| She had to. | ||
| No, she did not. | ||
| Trump is going to attack her on it forever. | ||
| He's going to attack her on it forever no matter what. | ||
| But now at least it's off the table. | ||
| She showed the slightest sliver of Native American. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, no, no. | |
| Joe, it's not off the table. | ||
| You think that if Elizabeth Warren's not the candidate, that's not going to be what he hits her with every single time? | ||
| For sure. | ||
| But it would be more on the table if she had never taken the DNA test. | ||
| He would be... | ||
| Oh, for sure. | ||
| Really? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Yes, because it would be this hidden thing. | ||
| Like, no, no, no, he knows. | ||
| He knows I'm lying about my ancestry. | ||
| It's a big thing to lie about. | ||
| Because if you... | ||
| It's kind of a cool ethnicity, but you lie about being Native American. | ||
| It's different. | ||
| Because they're one of the most maligned and repressed peoples ever in recorded history. | ||
| I mean, they were wiped off the face of the map and stuck into these little pockets of land that don't have strong natural resources. | ||
| I mean, I'm on my fifth book in the last three months on Native Americans. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Wow. | |
| Yeah, I became obsessed. | ||
| What got you obsessed? | ||
| Empire of the Summer Moon. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| It's a book on the Comanches, and it is fucking incredible. | ||
| It's incredible. | ||
| When you realize that this was going on in this country just 150 years ago, and that for hundreds of years, the Comanches just dominated the West. | ||
| They dominated the plains. | ||
| And until they invented a gun that could shoot more than one bullet, the white men were fucked. | ||
| The Comanches would just dominate them because they could shoot arrow after arrow and they were just ferocious people. | ||
| They didn't – no artwork, no beadwork. | ||
| They just made teepees. | ||
| Beedwork? | ||
| Really. | ||
| They weren't – they didn't have like illustrious like works of art and beautiful – what the Comanches were a war people. | ||
| They raided. | ||
| They hunted. | ||
| They ate mostly meat. | ||
| All they ate was meat. | ||
| They didn't farm. | ||
| They didn't do any farming. | ||
| They just roamed around and killed buffalo and just dominated the entire western half of this country for hundreds and hundreds of years. | ||
| Because they were the first ones to figure out how to ride horses. | ||
| They were the first ones to not just figure out how to ride horses, but to raise horses. | ||
| Animal husbandry. | ||
| They figured out how to accumulate large stables of horses and ride them better than anybody could. | ||
| I need to read this. | ||
| Oh, it's fucking amazing. | ||
| It sounds amazing. | ||
| It's so good. | ||
| It's such a good book. | ||
| And horrific. | ||
| Do you see the woman out there that's on the wall outside? | ||
| A Native American woman that's breastfeeding a woman? | ||
| A baby? | ||
| Oh my god, I thought you were talking about a real woman. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, no, no. | |
| A painting. | ||
| No, it's a photograph of Cynthia Ann Parker. | ||
| Cynthia Ann Parker was, she was abducted by the Comanches when she was nine years old, and then became accepted as a part of the tribe, and then went on to be the wife of the major chief, one of the major Comanche chiefs, and then was kidnapped back by the United States when she was 30. But she didn't want to be in the United States, because her whole life, or by the... | ||
| Whatever, the pioneers, whatever the fuck they would call them. | ||
| The Americans. | ||
| That's her right there. | ||
| That's the photograph so far. | ||
| How did you get, like, what started your interest in this? | ||
| I read a book by my friend Stephen Ranella called The American Buffalo. | ||
| And it's the history of the bison in the United States and the Native Americans that would travel with the bison and all these different tribes that would, they basically coexisted with the bison. | ||
| Just moving with the bison as they migrated and hunting the bison. | ||
| And I was just like, what a strange thing that these people lived in this stone age but fantastic way with all these myths and legends and stories and so much magic in their life. | ||
| And then all that's gone. | ||
| All that's gone. | ||
| And now we just like crouch over a little piece of metal. | ||
| So when Elizabeth Warren lies about being that... | ||
| Like, that's a big deal. | ||
| Because they're one of the most mythical cultures, one of the most magical cultures in a lot of ways. | ||
| Because, look, they did horrific things to each other. | ||
| There's no doubt about it. | ||
| The Comanches were fucking ruthless to each other. | ||
| To other Native American tribes, they went on war constantly. | ||
| They were raiding each other constantly. | ||
| Kidnapping, abducting, murdering. | ||
| I mean, there's no, like, this idea of Native Americans being like, oh, yeah. | ||
| Horseshit. | ||
| 100% horseshit. | ||
| That's not how they lived. | ||
| But the way they lived was, I don't want to say admirable, but fascinating. | ||
| Fascinating and powerful. | ||
| And they had their very strict rules and codes of operating that were very unlike the Western world. | ||
| And they were invaded. | ||
| They were invaded and dominated and killed off by disease. | ||
| And then ultimately, I mean, they were shooting buffalo just to starve the Indians out. | ||
| I mean, there was a lot of crazy shit that went down. | ||
| So when she comes out and says, you know, oh, I grew up Native American. | ||
| The fuck you did? | ||
| The fuck you did? | ||
| And the more books I read, now I'm on Black Elk Speaks, which is my favorite one so far, because Black Elk Speaks is an actual man named Black Elk who is an Oglala Sioux medicine man, a Lakota medicine man, who in the 1930s told his story. | ||
| So he was alive. | ||
| He was there when Custer was murdered. | ||
| Yeah, he was there when the Sioux were forced into reservations. | ||
| He's telling the whole story of them going from living this nomadic life to being forced in these reservations and starving and alcoholism and all the chaos that came with it. | ||
| And this one's the best because it's literally his words. | ||
| So you get a direct translation. | ||
| He's talking to his son, his son is talking to the author, and the book was written in the 1930s. | ||
| Do you spend any time on reservations? | ||
| No, I haven't. | ||
| Other than Indian casinos doing stand-up. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You should do a show with someone. | ||
| Well, we're working on that right now. | ||
| We're reaching out to a couple different Native American groups to try to find a good representative to come in and talk about their grandparents and the stories that they had heard. | ||
| It's a crazy subject. | ||
| To me... | ||
| Look, pretending you're anything is not good. | ||
| But pretending you're Native American, to me, is like, whoa. | ||
| Because that's one where everybody... | ||
| There's like a spirituality aspect to Native Americans. | ||
| It's implied. | ||
| Like, you say you're Native American, people are like, oh, that guy fucking knows things. | ||
| You know, you're allowed to have feathers. | ||
| You can have an unironic dreamcatcher on your wall, you know? | ||
| It's different. | ||
| It's different. | ||
| It's one thing that, like, cosplay is. | ||
| Yeah, I totally get that. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Totally. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It's... | ||
| It's a weird one. | ||
| And maybe someone lied to her. | ||
| People get the wrong information all the time from their great-grandparents. | ||
| And also, the thing about Cynthia Ann Parker, right? | ||
| Cynthia Ann Parker was 0% Native American, but she was 100% Indian. | ||
| She still was a Native American, because she was abducted when she was 9 and lived their life. | ||
| She wanted to go back. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, she threw in her lot with them. | ||
| And that made her them. | ||
| Well, she didn't like the Western world when she was forced to live in cities and live in towns. | ||
| And she fucking hated it. | ||
| And you get her words, you know, when she's describing the difference. | ||
| Like, the Comanche world was filled with magic and gods. | ||
| The water was a god. | ||
| The sky was a god. | ||
| There was magic. | ||
| There was rituals they would do to protect themselves in combat. | ||
| And all these things made life fantastic. | ||
| The hunting of the buffalo and the nomadic way of life. | ||
| And then all of a sudden to be locked into these buildings and wearing these clothes and stuck within these rituals that the white men would live. | ||
| She didn't want to have any part of that. | ||
| So even though, like, you know, if someone was Cynthia Ann Parker's, if she had sex with a white man and made a white baby, that is not a Native American baby, but it kind of is. | ||
| You know, I mean, in terms of culture, she was 100% all in Comanche when they eventually abducted her back. | ||
| Amazing stuff. | ||
| So, fuck Elizabeth Warren. | ||
| Fuck that crazy Native American talk. | ||
| Again, no disrespect to Mrs. Warren. | ||
| Maybe someone lied to her. | ||
| Maybe someone lied to her. | ||
| Maybe she didn't know she was one 2,000th Native American. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I also just think... | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| She's an expert and she's clearly... | ||
| Manipulative. | ||
| I was going to say, really smart. | ||
| She knows what she's talking about. | ||
| I just don't think that she sells to the American people in this moment. | ||
| I just don't see it. | ||
| I really don't. | ||
| Well, that shit she pulled on Bernie when she was saying that he had pulled her aside in private and said a woman can never be president. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Tell me how you saw that moment. | ||
| Well, the CNN moment was very interesting, right? | ||
| When she walked up to him in this very public way and said, I think you just called me a liar on national TV. And he was like... | ||
| Did you see the video where someone put the Curb Your Enthusiasm? | ||
| No! | ||
| Oh my god. | ||
| Jamie, you need to pull... | ||
| It's like Tom Steyer's there and it's like the intro music to Curb. | ||
| It's incredible. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It's perfect. | |
| Oh, that's funny. | ||
| Because Tom Steyer's standing there like... | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I think it was a ploy. | ||
| I don't buy it. | ||
| He's been her ally forever, and to me it shows a sign of great disloyalty and great dishonesty. | ||
| The way she did it, she did it as a ploy. | ||
| Ideally, her and him could be allies. | ||
| But only one person can win. | ||
| Right, but maybe she wins and he's her running mate. | ||
| That is 100% possible, right? | ||
| So if you're all in the DNC together, you should be allies, right? | ||
| He's a powerful force in the Democratic Party. | ||
| She's a powerful force in the Democratic Party. | ||
| Why are you attacking each other? | ||
| And why are you attacking each other with some bullshit story from many years ago where he said that a woman is never going to win? | ||
| I think what – I don't know. | ||
| This is one thing where I can give them both a generous read. | ||
| I think it's very possible that they had the kind of conversation that people like you and I have all the time, which is can a woman win the presidency of the United States? | ||
| And I think Bernie gave an answer that probably – that a lot of people give in those conversations, which is – Maybe not. | ||
| Maybe the American people are too sexist to elect a woman. | ||
| Like, that's possible. | ||
| And he meant that in an observational way, not at any judgment on who she is or the capability of a woman to be president. | ||
| And she heard it in the negative way of a woman can't be president? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Too generous? | ||
| That is possible. | ||
| That is possible. | ||
| I agree that this was absolutely a... | ||
| Strategy on her part that backfired. | ||
| That's why it's gross. | ||
| And it did backfire. | ||
| Not a question. | ||
| But I also think that, you know, I have those conversations every day. | ||
| Can a woman be president? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| People are really misogynistic. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Well, they have these ideas about what a president is. | ||
| And a president is an older male who is, you know, well-spoken and educated. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And tall. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| There's many factors. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That's why Pete Buttigieg has no chance. | ||
| He's too short. | ||
| And a lot of other reasons. | ||
| There's a lot of other things. | ||
| Well, he's also a fucking mayor right now. | ||
| Aren't you working? | ||
| I don't know, man. | ||
| Andrew Yang is like, are you saying lack of government experience? | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| He has a job that he's not doing when he's out there running for president. | ||
| Like, Andrew Yang, he's not a mayor somewhere where he's ignoring his constituents. | ||
| He's not ignoring his city. | ||
| Like, South Bend, Indiana, they're freaking out. | ||
| They're like, what the fuck are you doing, man? | ||
| You're supposed to be the mayor. | ||
| Well, that's how New Yorkers felt about Bill de Blasio, which is like, our feckless mayor is now running for president. | ||
| I love that word. | ||
| Feckless is one of my... | ||
| I never use it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, it's so good. | |
| You gotta use it. | ||
| It's a great word. | ||
| Feckless. | ||
|
unidentified
|
He is! | |
| It is. | ||
| It's just a great word. | ||
| Someone called someone a feckless cunt. | ||
| Who the hell was that? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| God damn it. | ||
| I forget who it was. | ||
| Someone on the show? | ||
| Maybe Samantha Bee. | ||
| Called someone a feckless cunt. | ||
| Oh my god. | ||
| It was Samantha Bee. | ||
| It was Samantha Bee. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| I was like, Jesus. | ||
| But she was feckless and then cunt. | ||
| I was like, whoo! | ||
| It's hard. | ||
| She came hard. | ||
| She went hard. | ||
| She came hard. | ||
| I mean, came at her hard. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I'm not good with language sometimes. | ||
| But the Warren thing, the real problem with it was that it was obviously calculated. | ||
| It didn't... | ||
| When people are talking, if someone said... | ||
| Look, if he was like a closet misogynist... | ||
| No, obviously he's not. | ||
| Obviously he's not. | ||
| But I also think that he had a conversation with her where he said that a woman can't win. | ||
| Maybe or maybe not. | ||
| I don't think she's making that up. | ||
| Sure she could be making it up. | ||
| Of course she could. | ||
| I don't think that she is. | ||
| And I think what Bernie meant was not anything sexist or misogynist. | ||
| I say sometimes, I ask out loud to my friends, I don't know if a woman can win for president. | ||
| Well, Hillary won the popular vote. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I know. | |
| So a woman can win. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| They can win. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| The idea that they can is nonsense. | ||
| But it's also talk, right? | ||
| If you and I were just sitting around, having a cup of coffee, and we're just talking, we just talk about stuff. | ||
| And then I went and weaponized that against you. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It sucks. | |
| Yeah, you say, this is a statement. | ||
| I'm like, that's not what I'm saying. | ||
| I don't know what the fuck I'm saying right now. | ||
| Like, right when I'm talking, I don't know what my next word is going to be, right? | ||
| Everyone knows that. | ||
| We all know that when we're talking. | ||
| It's one thing if you're reading a speech or if you have a very clear doctrine that you, like, this is my idea of the world. | ||
| I've thought this through very carefully. | ||
| I've written it down and I'd like to share it with you. | ||
| Okay, well then I'm going to hold you to that. | ||
| And if you change that opinion, I'd like you to tell me why you changed it and tell me why you were wrong. | ||
| But that's the difference between talk. | ||
| Fuck, a woman can't win. | ||
| A woman can't win. | ||
| Hey, a woman can't win! | ||
| Maybe that's what he said. | ||
| Maybe he was upset. | ||
| And then she's like, he privately told me a woman can never be present. | ||
| He's like, that's not what I said! | ||
| No, let's not do this now. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Let's not do this now. | |
| Do you want to do this now? | ||
|
unidentified
|
You must watch the clip with the curb music. | |
| It's so good. | ||
| It was just, oh god, it was amazing. | ||
| Is Bernie Jewish? | ||
| Are you kidding? | ||
| Sounds like it. | ||
| Of course, Bernie's Jewish. | ||
| I pay so little attention to people's religion. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, but Bernie embodies the Brooklyn Jew. | |
| Oh, it certainly does. | ||
| Because the name, Bernie. | ||
| And then Sanders. | ||
| Bernie Sanders, yes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
He's Jewish. | |
| Not religious. | ||
| Do you think, going back to your book, do you think... | ||
| Going back to my book, we haven't started on it, but sure. | ||
| We touched it. | ||
| We touched it a couple times. | ||
| We touched it a couple times. | ||
| Do you think that that could be an issue? | ||
| No, I don't. | ||
| I think it might be – no, I just don't see that being an issue with him. | ||
| I mean, it's not a fundamental part of his identity, unlike Elizabeth Warren's Native American roots. | ||
| He's not running on it. | ||
| He says he's a proud Jew, but he's not religious really at all. | ||
| I just don't – I don't see it. | ||
| I don't see it. | ||
| You don't see it being an issue. | ||
| I think he'll maybe use it as a way of – I think one of the things that people are going to say about Bernie, especially from the right, is they're going to attack him on his foreign policy credentials and they're going to say that he is not going to be a good ally of Israel, not serious on foreign policy, not hawkish. | ||
| And they'll point to the fact that some of his surrogates are extremely problematic people like Linda Sarsour. | ||
| And I think in that sense, Bernie's Jewishness will be important because I think he'll use it to say, but I'm Jewish! | ||
| You know, like, how dare you accuse me of X, Y, and Z thing. | ||
| Right, right. | ||
| But I don't think it's, like, if you're, I think you're asking, is it disqualifying for people? | ||
| And I don't see it that way at all. | ||
| Yeah, I was saying, would it be a factor that some people don't want a Jewish president? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| I see it being more of a factor with someone like a Mike Bloomberg that's like, do you want a Jewish billionaire? | ||
| That plays into a lot of stereotypes. | ||
| Billionaires are a religion unto their own. | ||
| Well, I don't know about that. | ||
| But in some ways, what I mean by that is people look at them like a different thing. | ||
| Like, oh, they're Mormons. | ||
| Oh, they're billionaires. | ||
| You know what I mean? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Totally. | |
| Totally. | ||
| It's like a billionaire. | ||
| That's a category. | ||
| Someone has accumulated at least a thousand million dollars. | ||
| What the fuck? | ||
| Who are those aliens? | ||
| A thousand million dollars. | ||
| I like the way you said that. | ||
| I don't think it's going to be a defining factor for Bernie. | ||
| I don't. | ||
| But I don't know. | ||
| But again, I also think Trump is going to win. | ||
| Let's talk about your book. | ||
| Unless you want more. | ||
| No, I so want to talk about my book. | ||
| I have to be very bad. | ||
| Go pee! | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sorry. | |
| No worries. | ||
| No worries. | ||
| Does it matter that for the... | ||
| We'll be here. | ||
| Don't worry. | ||
| Don't worry. | ||
| We're good. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We're good. | |
| That Bernie Elizabeth Warren stuff was started, I believe, as a report on CNN the day before they hosted that debate as just maybe a way to drum up ratings, which it did work because Could be. | ||
| Because the ratings were higher than the previous two or three. | ||
| Yeah! | ||
| People love controversy, man. | ||
| People love it. | ||
| They get excited. | ||
| Look, half of this stuff is so goddamn boring and so hard to follow. | ||
| When someone calls you a liar and they're like, I am not a liar! | ||
| Like, yes! | ||
| Now we got something. | ||
| Now we got something juicy we could sink our teeth into. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I was also going to ask if you saw any of the Curb stuff from last night. | |
| No. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It was great. | |
| Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, he's always great. | |
| He's wearing a MAGA hat. | ||
| Just to get rid of people so you don't have to eat lunch with them and shit. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They realized it would work. | |
| He's genius, man. | ||
| I'd like to get him in here. | ||
| I love him. | ||
| I love Larry David. | ||
| I mean, he's really one of the big reasons why Seinfeld was so successful. | ||
| It was such a great show. | ||
| He's a special character. | ||
| You know that guy really does fucking drive a Prius, apparently? | ||
| He's probably worth $500 million. | ||
| Driving a fucking Prius. | ||
| Spots the money with Jerry and he has the... | ||
| Yeah, Jerry has got probably 200 cars. | ||
| And Larry David drives a fucking Prius. | ||
| He might have a Tesla now. | ||
| He might have changed it up. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Who knows? | |
| It was great, though. | ||
| Bridget Phetis, he made his little cameo in it. | ||
| Really? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah. | |
| Bridget was in it? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Uh-huh. | |
| No shit. | ||
| Oh, that's awesome. | ||
| Good for her. | ||
| Good for her. | ||
| Yeah, he's special, you know? | ||
| That show is special. | ||
| And it's, like, Jeff Garland on it and everything. | ||
| It's, like, it's so perfect, all of them together. | ||
| He's getting accused of being Weinstein the whole episode. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| I'm like, you're hanging out with Weinstein? | ||
| It was great. | ||
| What do you think about Weinstein using that walker? | ||
| I'm like, get the fuck out of here, bitch. | ||
| You can walk. | ||
| I'm seeing him use that walker. | ||
| I'm like, that looks so fake. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, you get extra lawyer time or something, right? | |
| If you're hurt. | ||
| If you're disabled? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, if you're disabled in court or something. | |
| I don't know. | ||
| Or I guess it's if you're being held. | ||
| What all of a sudden happened to him? | ||
| Did he fall? | ||
| He needs surgery of some sort. | ||
| But it's new, right? | ||
| His back hurts. | ||
| But it seems greasy. | ||
| Doesn't it seem greasy? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh yeah, for sure. | |
| That's definitely a move someone told him to do. | ||
| It's a greasy move. | ||
| Yeah, it's like I see what you're doing. | ||
| Shut the door, please. | ||
| I get it, I get it. | ||
| We're just talking about Harvey Weinstein's Walker. | ||
| I don't buy it. | ||
| Oh, I don't buy it for a second. | ||
| Not a fucking second, right? | ||
| Like, oh, sympathy. | ||
| Yeah, we gotta talk about that, too. | ||
| Oh my fucking god. | ||
| That's... | ||
| Yeah, he didn't help Jewish relations at all. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| This fucking Israeli flag-painted mosque, you know, all that stuff. | ||
| Remind me. | ||
| The Israeli flag-painted mosque? | ||
| I thought it was Greek. | ||
|
unidentified
|
The temple. | |
| No, the temple. | ||
| Yeah, temple, that's right. | ||
| Oh, God. | ||
| Yeah, you didn't see his temple? | ||
| His temple's painting the colors of the Israeli flag? | ||
| But those are also the colors of the Greek flag. | ||
| Good point. | ||
| But he's not Greek. | ||
| The question was, did he work for the Mossad? | ||
| Did he work for the American government? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Can we just agree that he was murdered? | |
| I think that he was married. | ||
| If you had all your chips on the table, like Barry, you got to go all in. | ||
| What are you going to do? | ||
| There are too many coincidences to make it plausible that Jeffrey Epstein, like the video, we could go down the line. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm sure you guys are like Jeffrey Epstein truthers in here. | |
| You guys are fucking deep. | ||
| I'm not even going to try. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We're all in. | |
| It's something that I've followed not as closely as you have. | ||
| Remind me after the show. | ||
| But the little bit that I've followed it makes me incredibly suspicious of the official story. | ||
| Remind me after the show. | ||
| I'll tell you off the air some crazy shit. | ||
| Why don't you tell me now? | ||
| I can't, I can't. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Because I'll tell you after the show and you'll understand. | ||
| Okay, I'm excited. | ||
| But yeah, the thing is so, it's so bizarre. | ||
| And it's like, they're hoping that the news cycle somehow or another buries it. | ||
| And then just like, oh, he's gone, he's gone, let's get to my... | ||
| Iran is a problem! | ||
| We're going to war! | ||
| Look at this! | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay, well it is a problem! | |
| It is a problem, but... | ||
| It's almost like we've stopped talking about Jeffrey Epstein, but he's clearly been murdered. | ||
| He clearly was the guy who was in some way, shape, or form a part of a gigantic ring where you would get underage girls to these pedophiles or public figures who were interested in having sex with 16-year-old girls. | ||
| Oh. | ||
| Well, that's the part that's known. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| That's public, right? | ||
| Like, we know he was a pedophile. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| We know that there was some kind of procuring that was happening for famous, wealthy, public men in his circles. | ||
| We know that Bill Clinton was on his plane. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| You probably know the number of times. | ||
| 26 times. | ||
| Not a lot of times. | ||
| There you go. | ||
| 26 times. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Come on. | |
| What's the big deal? | ||
| Come on. | ||
| We know Trump knew. | ||
| I mean, like... | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That's the part we know. | ||
| The part I want to know is who was he actually working for? | ||
| Why did he have that home? | ||
| How was he so wealthy when there was no... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hey! | |
| Oh, that's right. | ||
| He had a painting of Clinton in his house wearing a dress. | ||
| But just stop and think about what kind of guy. | ||
| He's basically saying, Clinton's my bitch. | ||
| I'm going to get a painting of him in a dress And I'm going to put it in my house. | ||
| Like, do you think he made Clinton dress like that at some point in time? | ||
| Like, did Clinton do that for fun? | ||
| The thing is, is it was like... | ||
| If he posed for it. | ||
| God, keep him alive. | ||
| Let him talk. | ||
| It's such a sick picture. | ||
| How did they not let... | ||
| I mean, how did they not protect him? | ||
| But it was completely known. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I mean, no one knows who he really worked for, right? | |
| Yeah. | ||
| No, no one knows. | ||
| No one knows that. | ||
| We don't know. | ||
| Someone must know. | ||
| But what I was going to say is like, you know, I've talked to enough people that knew him, met him, went to parties at his house and said like, everyone knew this about him. | ||
| It was like a Harvey Weinstein thing. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| You know, in the sense of the young women. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You know? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| In the sense that everyone knew about Bill Cosby that came into contact with him. | ||
| There were things that were just agreed to never speak about. | ||
| It's just absolutely sick. | ||
| When the story broke about him hanging himself, I was obsessed for a few days, but then I had to move on to other things. | ||
| The world is a big place. | ||
| That's what they're hoping for. | ||
| Yeah, but it's also like there actually are things that are more important to me than the story of Jeffrey Epstein. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| And I hope that there's some investigative journalist digging into the truth of what happened there. | ||
| I wonder how much there is to dig. | ||
| I mean, how much dirt is there that you could actually get a shovel into? | ||
| What are you talking about? | ||
| Don't you think there's a ton? | ||
| I'm sure, but I think it's the girls who are the victims, and then the men who are shutting their fucking mouths, right? | ||
| Except for Prince Andrew, which is like... | ||
| That was... | ||
| Everybody should go to jail just after that. | ||
| Oh my god. | ||
| Everybody he knows. | ||
| Everybody get in jail. | ||
| Well, the royals are falling apart, man. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I know. | |
| Prince Harry's moving on. | ||
| They're becoming like Instagram influencers. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It's a good move. | |
| I don't understand this. | ||
| It's probably more money. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I don't know. | |
| The whole thing is so— Well, isn't being a royal basically being an Instagram influencer? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| But it's like, I don't know. | ||
| This is a strategy question of if you really want, like, progress and all the things that you talk about, I could make the argument that, yeah, you're part of this crazy, ridiculous, retrograde institution, but you can probably do more good in that role than you can, I don't know, like living in Canada? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Well, Canada doesn't want them coming over there, apparently. | ||
| They're not going to let them. | ||
| Because apparently, if you're a part of a royal family, you're not allowed to actually live in Canada. | ||
| What? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah, there was some thing that... | ||
| Pull up Prince Harry. | ||
| It might be illegal for Prince Harry to move to Canada. | ||
| That seems... | ||
| Yeah, well, I think it's the idea is you don't want a monarch moving into this, you know, Canada is a colony of England, but they have their independence. | ||
| So the idea would, if a royal from England moved into Canada, it's probably some ancient fucking rule, but they would be able to set up shop and start running Canada because they have power over the prime minister. | ||
| I get it in theory. | ||
| I just haven't heard of it. | ||
| I'm on like season two of The Crown. | ||
| I mean, I gotta like catch up. | ||
| It's so good. | ||
| It's all weird. | ||
| How did we get on that? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| Oh, I know. | ||
| Because Epstein. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And Prince Andrew. | ||
| Yeah, that's right. | ||
| We started with Epstein being really bad for Jewish relations. | ||
| And Ghislaine? | ||
| Ghislaine? | ||
| Nobody knows how to say it. | ||
| I don't know how to say anything, but I think it's Ghislaine. | ||
| Mm-hmm. | ||
| Like, her whole thing. | ||
| Like, that whole photo op at the In-N-Out. | ||
| Reading that CIA... I mean... | ||
| Yeah, people... | ||
| CIA deaths. | ||
| It's so good. | ||
| It's crazy. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It's so good. | |
| It's crazy. | ||
| And where is she? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| She's at a base in Antarctica right now. | ||
| Fishing for penguins. | ||
| Like, the whole thing is crazy. | ||
| It really is. | ||
| I don't even think there are penguins in Antarctica. | ||
| Right? | ||
| They're in the other pole. | ||
| Either way, the whole thing is... | ||
| It's going to go away. | ||
| And we all kind of know it's going to go away. | ||
| And that's one of the most disturbing aspects of this case. | ||
| Like, that they did murder this guy. | ||
| They did erase the film of his first suicide attempt. | ||
| Oh, so we erased it. | ||
| Sorry. | ||
| They erased the film of that, and then the cameras weren't working on the second one. | ||
| It's like, everything is so obvious. | ||
| And the security guards fell asleep. | ||
| Or they were not on duty or something? | ||
| I know, but the problem is, right, like, you can see... | ||
| The world moving on is a kind of – or the world – the press is a conspiracy or you can just – like the way I see it is there are so many things to cover in the world and the press has been so gutted that we need to decide like, yeah, is it more important to cover like Soleimani than Jeffrey Epstein? | ||
| Yeah, it is. | ||
| So it's not – like I don't see it as malevolent in the way that you do maybe because I'm inside of it and I just see the way that it functions. | ||
| Right. | ||
| No, I don't see it as malevolent. | ||
| I just see it as inevitable. | ||
| It's not like once Epstein died, the world's going to pause and go, hey, let's have no more news so we can sort this out. | ||
| It doesn't work that way. | ||
| I don't think it's malevolent. | ||
| I just think it's just a function of life in general. | ||
| And just the insane amount of information that we have access to and the same insane news cycle that we're operating under now. | ||
| Everything gets buried, including obvious murder. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Have you had, like, who is the world's leading Jeffrey Epstein expert? | ||
| Probably Eddie Bravo. | ||
| Probably Eddie Bravo. | ||
| He's my crazy friend. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I don't know who is. | ||
| Well, Eric Weinstein is definitely really into this. | ||
| Yes, he knows a lot and he met him. | ||
|
unidentified
|
He does know a lot. | |
| He met him and, you know, Eric loves Cloak and Dagger stuff. | ||
| And so he told me right away he knew the guy was an actor. | ||
| He was like, this guy's full of shit. | ||
| He doesn't know anything about finance. | ||
| He's like, this guy's not some financial wizard who's made billions of dollars. | ||
| He's like, that's not who he is. | ||
| Like, he's acting. | ||
| He said when he met him, he had a young girl that was sitting on his lap. | ||
| And while the girl was sitting on his lap, the girl was like 21 years old. | ||
| And he just kept jiggling his knee, like bouncing her up and down. | ||
| Her tits were jiggling while they were talking. | ||
| Yeah, like, what? | ||
| Imagine? | ||
| Imagine having a conversation with a guy? | ||
| It's disgusting. | ||
| Yeah, and he's got a girl sitting... | ||
| He wants to talk about, like, real stuff. | ||
| Oh, my God. | ||
| And he's got a young girl sitting on his lap, and he just keeps bouncing his knee up and down, and her boobs are bouncing around. | ||
| But why did all of these respectable people keep, like, going to parties at his house, even after he'd been arrested for prostitution? | ||
| Which was really... | ||
| That's a very good question. | ||
| Like, that's really the sickness. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Right. | ||
| The people that went after he was arrested, like... | ||
| How'd that happen? | ||
| Well, I think because the way Eric describes it, Eric thinks that there are people in these, look, these are enormously high-profile people that have very buttoned-down, respectable positions in life where you really can't get wild, right? | ||
| But they're also still men, right? | ||
| So he thinks that there are people that provide services, and I'm definitely paraphrasing how Eric described it to me. | ||
| Yeah, because he'd have, like, 20 different, like, coinages to describe this. | ||
| But he thinks that there's people that procure these experiences for people that find it very difficult to get buck wild. | ||
| And so they would do it. | ||
| And this is probably why he had Fuck Island, right? | ||
| Fly him out to this crazy island and it'd be easier to get away with it out there. | ||
| Hey, no one's out here. | ||
| We're in the middle of nowhere. | ||
| Every fucking picture has eyeballs that are cameras and a phone. | ||
| You know? | ||
| I mean, it's a crazy story. | ||
| But of course that's just practically true, right? | ||
| Like if you're an Elon Musk or someone at that level, like a public figure or Eric Schmidt or whatever, you're not going to like – what are you going to do? | ||
| Go on like Tinder or Raya? | ||
| No. | ||
| You're going to rely on like a – A guy. | ||
| Yeah, a wrangler. | ||
| Yeah, right. | ||
| Oh my god, so sick. | ||
| Sasha Baron Cohen says he turned over disturbing Who Is America footage to the FBI. Oh, right. | ||
| Do you remember this? | ||
| That's right. | ||
| No, I don't. | ||
| He exposed a pedophile ring in Vegas when he was undercover. | ||
| Yeah, we're going to go down. | ||
| I love him. | ||
| I love him, too. | ||
| He's so wonderful. | ||
| But I don't know. | ||
| I missed this. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But wait, what happened? | ||
| They just turned it over to the FBI. They didn't look into it at all. | ||
| Really? | ||
| They didn't look into it. | ||
| No. | ||
| It was a real weird story. | ||
| He was playing a fake billionaire character and asked for something like that. | ||
| Someone said they could help him and he turned that video over and nothing happened. | ||
| I don't know what that is. | ||
| It could have been that the guy was like, yeah, I can help you. | ||
| I'll help you by calling the fucking cops. | ||
| We don't really know what the guy said. | ||
| I mean, unless we can watch the footage. | ||
| They have the footage or it's gone. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Who knows? | |
| You should have him. | ||
| Have you had him on? | ||
| No, I'd love to. | ||
| Love him. | ||
| He's awesome. | ||
| Yeah, he's awesome. | ||
| Ali G in the house. | ||
| You ever see that? | ||
| The UK film? | ||
| The old school UK film? | ||
| All of it. | ||
| It is hilarious. | ||
| Most people don't know about that film. | ||
| That film is fucking hilarious. | ||
| He is. | ||
| Well, throw the juice down the well. | ||
| I mean, that was like... | ||
| Just pivoting. | ||
| Just transitioning. | ||
| He can get away with stuff because he's Jewish. | ||
| You can get away with that. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So the Jew down the veil. | ||
| So my country can be free. | ||
| I mean, I was watching this and I'm like, wow. | ||
| His characters, man. | ||
|
unidentified
|
All of them. | |
| They're so good. | ||
| I didn't love his new show as much. | ||
| Whatever it was. | ||
| What was it called? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| He played like a funny, there was like a Jewish, like a self-defense Mossad instructor that was like getting, you know, that was fun. | ||
| There were some parts that were funny, but it wasn't. | ||
| Didn't he interview OJ in the new one? | ||
|
unidentified
|
That was the very, very, very end. | |
| No, he was that same billionaire character and he was trying to get him to admit to stuff. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It was great. | |
| It was a great way to end it. | ||
| Didn't Judith Regan already get him to admit to it? | ||
| Remember when she got him, he was going to write that book, like, if I did it? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Remember that? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Somebody gave me a copy of that, and I just found it in my office. | ||
| It's signed by O.J. Simpson. | ||
| There he is. | ||
| Whoa. | ||
| There he is. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| That's right. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, my God. | |
| Hey, hey, hey. | ||
| Come on, now. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Anyway, we should probably talk about your book. | |
| Let's do it. | ||
| Yeah, let's do it. | ||
| The way it opens is very... | ||
| So we should tell people that you are from... | ||
| We're like really transitioning. | ||
| Yes, why not? | ||
| No, I love it. | ||
| We should tell people you're from Pittsburgh. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And you did your bat mitzvah at the temple where the Pittsburgh shooter... | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And so that was... | ||
| Just tell people. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| So I grew up in Squirrel Hill, which is pretty much down the street from Mr. Rogers. | ||
| It was quite literally Mr. Rogers' neighborhood. | ||
| He's from there. | ||
| And it was an amazing place to grow up. | ||
| I became a bat mitzvah in 1997, and it happened at Tree of Life in I actually was a member of a different synagogue called Beth Shalom, but there had been this fire, and so all of the kids who were becoming a bar bat mitzvah that year did it at Tree of Life. | ||
| And in the same way that people think about 9-11 as a date, I think about also October 27, 2018, because that morning I was in Arizona to give a speech to a group, and I looked at my phone around 10 in the morning to my family WhatsApp chat, and my youngest sister had just said, there's a shooter at Tree of Life. | ||
| And my thought immediately went to my dad because my dad is kind of what we think of as like a promiscuous Jew. | ||
| Like he goes to different synagogues. | ||
| He pays membership dues at various ones. | ||
| He likes the sermons at one and the scotch at another. | ||
| And I thought that there was a good possibility that he was there. | ||
| Thank God he was not there. | ||
| But my mom wrote back, you know, we're going to know people there. | ||
| My dad knew most of the people, 11 people were killed. | ||
| It was the most lethal anti-Semitic attack in all of American history. | ||
| I knew several of the people that were killed. | ||
| I was supposed to actually go to Israel the next day on a reporting trip to report on this fascinating archaeological dig. | ||
| But I ended up putting that trip off, doing that story later, and just spending the week to see what happens to a community when something like this goes down. | ||
| Because we read about mass shootings all the time. | ||
| So much so that they become kind of an abstraction. | ||
| And I don't report on this stuff, so I had never borne witness to what unfolds. | ||
| And it was a really transformative week. | ||
| And I write this in the book, but I feel like in retrospect, I had spent my life on a kind of holiday from history. | ||
| Both because I was, you know, I'm a Jew of the post-war era, which is to say I'm part of the luckiest diaspora in all of Jewish history. | ||
| Like the Jews since the end of World War II in this country have had it better than we've ever had it ever before. | ||
| I think we're good to go. | ||
| And they would scream, you know, kikes and dirty Jews and wear your horns. | ||
| And I remember in high school, someone telling me to pick up pennies. | ||
| Like things happened, but it all kind of like didn't register. | ||
| It really rolled off my back because I saw those as like vestiges from an earlier and uglier time. | ||
| Like something that those people should be embarrassed about, not something that said anything about me. | ||
| And... | ||
| You know, even after Pittsburgh, though, I was kind of like, you could still delude yourself into thinking, like, this is a one-off. | ||
| It shouldn't change, you know, the fundamental Jewish-American assessment of our experience here and our place of belonging here. | ||
| But then six months later to the day, there's another white supremacist attack on a synagogue in Poway, California. | ||
| And then we've had, you know... | ||
| We've had this rash of violent anti-Semitic attacks happening in the New York area, which I hope we'll talk about. | ||
| But, you know, it's weird because I grew up in a very political family. | ||
| My dad's a political conservative. | ||
| My mom's a liberal. | ||
| We're obsessed with politics. | ||
| We were always talking about politics and we're always talking about like Jews, right? | ||
| Like we're really probably Jewish family. | ||
| And so it wasn't that I thought antisemitism had died. | ||
| Like I was, you know, I watched antisemitism. | ||
| As it was sort of resurging in countries like France and England and Western Europe, but I sort of looked at all of that with some level of distance and maybe even a little condescension, like we're sort of inoculated from that disease in America, America singular, America... | ||
| It's sort of separate from the tragedy of so much of Jewish history. | ||
| And I have to say that, like, it sounds naive, but I was sort of shocked to see it, that it's here too, you know, and that we haven't escaped from it. | ||
| And, I mean, that awakening happened a little bit before Pittsburgh, which is, it happened, I think it was April 2017, you'll correct me, but when was the Charlottesville march? | ||
| Remember the Unite the Right march? | ||
| Jamie will find out. | ||
| But I remember being shocked, right, when those people were marching and they were shouting blood and soil, like Blunt in Boden, which is a Nazi slogan. | ||
| And the Jew will not replace us. | ||
| Exactly, right? | ||
| And the Jew will not replace us. | ||
| And when I heard the Jew... | ||
| Yeah, sorry, August 2017. When I heard the Jews will not replace us, right? | ||
| I heard it in the plain meaning of that phrase. | ||
| Like, the Jew is not going to take my job. | ||
| The Jew is not going to take my job in the corner office or whatever. | ||
| But in fact, it was like a reflection of this replacement theory ideology, which is that brown people and black people and Muslims and immigrants are coming to replace our white civilization. | ||
| And the Jews' job is Where does that come from? | ||
| That is a deeply, deeply ancient anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, right? | ||
| It's the idea of, let's go back to the New Testament. | ||
| Let's go back to the New Testament. | ||
| Right? | ||
| What happens in that story? | ||
| The story there is that the Jews go to Pontius Pilate and say, you know, like, this person's unacceptable to us. | ||
| And in the mythology of that story, the Jews get what was then the most powerful empire in the world, the Roman Empire, to do their bidding. | ||
| And you have this line in the book of Matthew that is so, so, I mean, the bloodiness of this line cannot be quantified, where he says, you know, his blood be on us and on our children, which goes, you know, down through the centuries to justify the killing of, you know, untold numbers of Jews. | ||
| But the idea of the Jew as sort of like the wily manipulator is As the Jew as having proximity to power, not being in power, but being able to sort of be the puppet master, pulling the levers of power. | ||
| You see that play out in lots of different iterations through time, right? | ||
| I'm trying to think about useful examples for your listeners, but that is sort of the trope, right? | ||
| And it is an ancient one, but it's being utilized in really new ways. | ||
| So it's not literally that the Jew is going to replace us. | ||
| that the Jew who, the Jew in a way, is sort of like the greatest trick the devil has ever played. | ||
| And this is the language of Eric Ward, who wrote this amazing essay called Skin in the Game. | ||
| And he talks, he's a black anti-racist activist. | ||
| And he talks about figuring out how anti-Semitism is kind of the linchpin of white supremacy, because the Jew appears to be white, but in fact, he's not white. | ||
| I mean, this is all based on this lie that race is not a construct, right? | ||
| Which it is. | ||
| But they're saying that the Jew is not white, but he appears to be white. | ||
| But in fact, he's loyal to these people who are coming to sully America. | ||
| And so when you have someone like Congressman Steve King saying, we can't replace our civilization with someone else's babies. | ||
| Like, what does that mean? | ||
| What is that idea? | ||
| It is so deeply anti-American. | ||
| Because the idea of America, right, is the idea that Americanness is not about bloodline. | ||
| Americanness is about a shared set of values and ideas and fealty to those ideas. | ||
| So the idea that someone else is, what does that mean? | ||
| Well, it doesn't make any sense because this entire country is based on immigrants. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| And, you know, as we talked about with the Native Americans, we have replaced our country. | ||
| We've taken over their country. | ||
| It was theirs first. | ||
| What we're talking about with anti-Semitism, one of the reasons why it's always been so confusing to me, is because it seems to be this... | ||
| There's a lot of these white supremacists that... | ||
| They lean towards antisemitism first. | ||
| It's almost more acceptable. | ||
| It's almost more like they think they can get away with it. | ||
| They'll find more support online. | ||
| If you say online in a lot of these forums, like if you say, hey, we got to get rid of all these black people. | ||
| There's going to be so many more red flags than if you say, we have to get rid of Jews. | ||
| I don't understand that one, because when people look different from you, if you are an Asian person who is racist against black people, or a black person who's racist against white people, or if someone's different than you, racism is always disgusting. | ||
| It's always horrific and ignorant, but At least I can kind of see how you could be tricked into thinking that way. | ||
| I don't understand antisemitism. | ||
| Antisemitism is not just a normal bigotry. | ||
| It's a conspiracy theory. | ||
| It's a way of understanding and making sense of the world, especially in times of economic and social upheaval. | ||
| The reason that antisemitism is resurgent right now is because, and not justifying it, but it's because we're in, going back to our earlier conversation, A time where people are disoriented, they're disaffected, they're confused, they're shortchanged, and they're looking for an easy answer. | ||
| So they're looking for a scapegoat. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| But there's no lines that point to Jews. | ||
| This is what's so confusing to me. | ||
| It's like, there's no clear thing. | ||
| Do you know what I'm saying? | ||
| Well, it's... | ||
| You have to wrap your mind around the idea, which is a huge, huge, huge idea, that anti-Semitism is built into the scaffolding of Western civilization. | ||
| Period. | ||
| It's never going away. | ||
| Think about it like an intellectual disease that's built into the foundations of the civilization that we live in. | ||
| And in times where that civilization or a given society is healthy, anti-Semitism along with xenophobia and racism and all kinds of other bigotry are sort of kept in check. | ||
| When the society becomes unhealthy, and we're living in a deeply unhealthy society in many different ways right now, anti-Semitism is something that people reach for, right? | ||
| It's like if you want to understand like the Nazi rise to power, you kind of can't understand it without looking to the fact that there was, you know, an incredible economic depression in Germany and there was a scapegoat. | ||
| And if you look, it's not to justify it, but if you look throughout history, right, look at the bubonic plague. | ||
| The bubonic plague came because of rats to the European continent that were brought on ships from Crimea. | ||
| But people did not at the time. | ||
| They looked. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Who did they blame? | ||
| They blamed the Jews. | ||
| The Jews were dying at a lesser rate than their non-Jewish neighbors, probably because of religious rituals that Jews have, like washing your hands before you break bread and say a blessing, dunking in the ritual bath before the Sabbath, and all of these other things that probably kept them more protected against the plague than their neighbors. and all of these other things that probably kept them | ||
| But rather than looking into it and saying, oh, maybe they're doing something right and something we should mimic, their neighbors said, kill the Jews, literally like throw the Jews down the well. | ||
| And it led to massive pogroms Killing Jews for, and the claim was that the Jews literally poisoned the drinking water throughout Europe. | ||
| So it's like, it's this irrational hatred, but it is so, so deep because it goes back to the most important myth that Western civilization is built on, and that is the Christian story. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| Jewish people are... | ||
| Does that make any sense? | ||
| Yes, it makes a lot of sense. | ||
| But the fact that it still continues doesn't make any sense. | ||
| The reason it's very hard to talk about this is because it's so enormous. | ||
| It's like accepting the fact that... | ||
| It's like you have to accept as a foundational principle that this is baked into the world that we live in. | ||
| And we're never going to cure it and it's never going to go completely away. | ||
| The best thing that we can do is build healthy cultures that protect certain virtues like liberty, like freedom of the individual, like religious liberty. | ||
| It's not a coincidence that America's been so good for the Jews. | ||
| It's because so many of the ideas that protect minorities and religious minorities, like Jews, were sort of for all of their fault, for all of the founders' faults, right? | ||
| And they had many, including owning people. | ||
| But, you know, George Washington, he writes this letter to the first... | ||
| And he says something that was then incredibly radical, which is pathetic that it was, but he says, you know, Jews in America are not just going to be tolerated. | ||
| They're going to possess the same power. | ||
| That at the time was a radical departure from history. | ||
| In the Islamic world, the Jews had always lived as dhimis, as second-class citizens. | ||
| And in the Christian world, it was worse. | ||
| I mean, what people forget, right, is like, right now, radical Islam, when it comes to the religions, is the greatest threat to Jews. | ||
| But for most of its history, Islam was much more tolerant of Jews than Christianity was, which is something that's kind of like, has gotten lost to history. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| The phrase, it's never going to go away, bothers the shit out of me. | ||
| But I'm being honest with you. | ||
| You don't think that it's possible that we can evolve past where we're at now? | ||
| Yeah, in a utopian idea, yes. | ||
| Not just in a utopian idea. | ||
| If you scale where human beings used to be 100, 200 years from now, and you scale it up 100, 200 years from now, we're clearly moving. | ||
| I mean, I think one of the reasons why all this social justice warrior shit is going on right now, I think it's good. | ||
| I think there's good signs. | ||
| The sign is that all these things are moving to stamp out racism, to stamp out sexism, stamp out misogyny and homophobia, and all those things that we know are a real problem in culture and society. | ||
| It's the overcorrection, the overreaction, the virtue signaling that's driving people nuts. | ||
| But the trend is all moving towards an area where any rational, reasonable person I think this is a good thing. | ||
| It's a good thing to not be sexist. | ||
| It's a good thing to not be homophobic. | ||
| It's a good thing to not be racist. | ||
| It's all moving in that direction. | ||
| It's just doing so in this chaotic virtue signaling, very obviously sort of manufactured way. | ||
| I hope you're right. | ||
| I think I am. | ||
| But the thing that's strange again about this particular pathology is that some of the most anti-Semitic countries in the world are countries with no Jews, right? | ||
| Like Egypt has less than 20 Jews. | ||
| 20? | ||
| 20. Do you know them? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| Do you guys have a newsletter? | ||
| I think it's 18. There's one in Afghanistan. | ||
| Jesus, one person? | ||
| Get out! | ||
| One. | ||
| Who are you? | ||
| Hate you in Afghanistan, bro. | ||
| He's there. | ||
| There were two until recently, and of course they weren't talking to each other. | ||
| Hop on a yak and fucking make your way over the mountain. | ||
| No, but the point is, like, Egypt's one of the most anti-Semitic countries in the world, and there are no Jews there. | ||
| How do you explain that? | ||
| Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. | ||
| Jews, Jewish people are very unusual in that they are a culture, a race, and a religion. | ||
| A peoplehood. | ||
| A peoplehood. | ||
| A tribe. | ||
| We are a tribe. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Like, our categories don't fit modernity. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| And that's what's so confusing about us. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Like, we... | ||
| Presaged all of those categories that you just laid out, which is what makes us so hard to categorize. | ||
| The only thing that mirrors it in some way is Muslims. | ||
| In some way, Muslims, they vary wildly in terms of how they look, in terms of what part of the world they're from, but they think of themselves as Muslims. | ||
| But Christians think of themselves as Christian. | ||
| Yes, but it's not as tribal. | ||
| It's a minor – I mean, it's not a lot of difference, but enough difference that you could categorize it in a different way. | ||
| But the difference, right, is you can't be an atheist Christian or an atheist Muslim. | ||
| Right. | ||
| You can be an atheist Jew. | ||
| In fact, there's a million of them. | ||
| Oh, one of my best friends, Ari Shafir, is an atheist Jew. | ||
| It's a strange group. | ||
| And do you think that because of that, because when – When people are so loyal to their own people, which is one thing that I actually admire about Jewish people, I think it would be nice if more people were like that, that they are profoundly pro-Jewish. | ||
| There's not a lot of apathetic Jews towards Judaism or towards the tribe, I should say. | ||
| Well, there's a reason for that. | ||
| When you ask an average American how many Jews they think are in America or in the world, you get this enormous number. | ||
| We're less than 2% of the population in America, and there's something like 13 million of us in the entire world. | ||
| Less than 2%? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Isn't that the same as transgender people? | ||
| You're the expert on that. | ||
| You know about Jessica Yaniv. | ||
| I don't know about her. | ||
| I just know about crazy stories in the news. | ||
| Whenever a guy wants to get his balls waxed and has a business closed down because of it. | ||
| Do you think that that might have something to do with it? | ||
| No. | ||
| For whatever reason, when they see someone who is in this sort of, I mean, I don't want to use the word isolated, because they're not really, Jewish folks in America are not really isolated, unless maybe like Hasidics, you could say they're in a very established community in Brooklyn and other parts of the country, but that maybe people look at this community, this tribe, and they think, they don't give a fuck about us, they only care about Jewish folks. | ||
| They might think that and that would be an anti-Semitic idea. | ||
| There's this really strange idea that people think that Jews cause anti-Semitism, right? | ||
| Like when the evil man who walked into the Walmart in El Paso talked about a Hispanic invasion and then went into that Walmart and killed I think upwards of 20 people, no one thought Maybe he's right. | ||
| Maybe there is a Hispanic invasion. | ||
| Maybe that was, like, somehow justified because he saw them as insular or isolated or looking out for each other. | ||
| Do you know what I mean? | ||
| Like, that would be a crazy idea. | ||
| Right, right. | ||
| And yet, when it comes to the Jews, people are like, well, you know, they wear their funny hats. | ||
| Well, you know, they seem to, you know, be looking out for one another. | ||
| I mean, like— But do you think there were that kind of rationalizations after the Tree of Life— Yes. | ||
| In that case, yes, but not in the case of what's been going on in Brooklyn. | ||
| There, we keep hearing things like, this is the result of communal friction, as if disputes over zoning laws cause someone to pick up a machete the size of a broomstick, walk into a rabbi's house, and hack people up. | ||
| That was the story that I emailed you about? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Do you see what I'm saying? | ||
| The case of Tree of Life, let's take that. | ||
| That's like a clean case in the sense of these are innocent, mostly elderly. | ||
| Two of the brothers who I knew who were killed were mentally disabled. | ||
| It was the people that show up to services on time, which is a certain kind of person. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You have this white supremacist who says, all Jews must die. | ||
| He's totally unequivocal about it. | ||
| And he goes in and he tries to do that. | ||
| So you have just a case of someone who any reasonable person sees as evil, which is this neo-Nazi, and people who any reasonable person sees as totally innocent, which is Jews in prayer. | ||
| Was the guy, the shooter, killed? | ||
| No, he's standing trial. | ||
| He's standing trial. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And he actually embodied this thing. | ||
| Sorry, should I stop? | ||
| No, the question was, when they have something like that, do they extensively interview him and try to figure out what the fuck brought him to that? | ||
| I mean, is he schizophrenic? | ||
| Is he... | ||
| Well, a lot of the people, like the guy in the Muncie case that we're going to talk about, the machete guy, he showed signs of mental illness. | ||
| I think that Robert Bowers in Pittsburgh also did. | ||
| But then so did Dylann Roof, the guy that killed however many people he killed at the black church in Charleston, South Carolina. | ||
| But he was also a white supremacist. | ||
| It's like these hateful ideologies Often they draw people that are deranged or young or somehow on the fringes of society. | ||
| With the guy in Pittsburgh, he was deep into this replacement theory ideology. | ||
| The reason that he selected Tree of Life as his synagogue is because Tree of Life the previous weekend had participated in this program called National Refugee Shabbat or Sabbath. | ||
| It was celebrating the idea of Welcoming the stranger, which is a fundamental Jewish value. | ||
| Do not oppress a stranger because you were strangers in the land of Egypt. | ||
| And he said specifically that, you know, HIAS, the group that was organizing this National Refugee Shabbat, it stands for Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society. | ||
| It started in the 1800s as a way of resettling Eastern European Jews who were fleeing pogroms in Eastern Europe, now works to resettle refugees, including Jews all over the world. | ||
| And he specifically selected Tree of Life because of that, because he said the Jews are bringing in the dirty immigrants into the society. | ||
| So he was like kind of the perfect embodiment of white supremacist replacement theory ideas. | ||
| In Brooklyn, it's much harder cases because it's much harder for people to talk about. | ||
| Because how do you talk about the fact that in many of these cases, and a lot of them have been caught on CCTV, that it's a young black man attacking a Hasidic guy walking down the street and who's visibly Jewish? | ||
| It's much harder to talk about when someone who we talk about as being rightly as being from a group that is himself victimized, a poor black kid in Brooklyn, is then going on to victimize another minority group. | ||
| It's just much harder when the attacker is not a white supremacist to talk about it. | ||
| That is a strange one. | ||
| The Hasidic one is a strange one. | ||
| But in some ways, I think it's easier for ignorant people to look at them as the other because of the way they clearly, distinctly dress. | ||
| They dress so much different. | ||
| It's almost like if you had Amish people move in and they stuck to themselves and they lived in one sort of community, I think they would probably experience a similar level of hatred. | ||
| But then you add into it this sort of acceptance of anti-Semitism in a lot of communities. | ||
| It's like it's ramped up. | ||
| But there's this myth that the Jewish communities of Brooklyn are interlopers. | ||
| They've been there for more than 100 years. | ||
| They've been in Crown Heights and Borough Park than before Caribbeans, before lots of other communities. | ||
| The interloper mythology. | ||
| Yeah, the interloper, the cultural vulture, the evil landlord, these are themselves expressions of the anti-Semitic idea. | ||
| And people don't even realize it. | ||
| Well, I think there's also a genuine jealousy in the accomplishments and achievements of Jewish people. | ||
| You know, I mean, if you look at Nobel Prize winners from Europe in particular, I mean, how many of them are European Jews? | ||
| It's fucking stunning. | ||
| You know, it's stunning. | ||
| When you look at the amount of lawyers, I mean, just joke around about my Jewish lawyer. | ||
| You know, I mean, it's like a standard thing. | ||
| You think of doctors and how many successful and educated people. | ||
| Are Jewish. | ||
| And that's one of the things you actually touch on in your book. | ||
| You were talking about, I mean, it's how successful Jewish people have become in this country. | ||
| And there's got to be some sort of a resentment for that as well, especially by, again, we're talking about mentally deranged people, people with like severe... | ||
| Some of them are mentally deranged, but some of them are young. | ||
| Some of them are – that's what's really difficult. | ||
| Impressionable. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It's like the disease is sort of like unleashed. | ||
| You know, it's like Dylann Roof was mentally ill, but he chose a black church. | ||
| He didn't choose, you know, a white Mormon church. | ||
| It's like the guy in Muncie, he was mentally ill by all accounts, but he Googled, you know, like, why did Hitler hate the Jews? | ||
| And he Googled various synagogues. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I mean, the really – and, you know, do you remember last time I was on here, the Covington video? | ||
| Remember the Covington Catholic kids? | ||
| That had just come out. | ||
| Do you remember in the video there were those two or three black men who were members of this sect, the black Hebrew Israelites, the Hebrew Israelites? | ||
| And everyone kind of laughed them off as like, ha ha, they're just this obnoxious, weird sect. | ||
| Well, their ideology, right, the idea that the Jews are not the real Jews, that we're pretenders to the faith, that the Jews are behind the slave trade, that the Jews are subhuman vermin, that was the ideology that informed this recent attack in Jersey City. | ||
| I don't know if you followed that one. | ||
| That was the one where it was a couple and they were driving around. | ||
| They wanted to target police officers and Jews. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And they targeted – Police officers and Jews. | |
| Yes. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| They hated pigs and they hated Jews. | ||
| There were diary entries and Google searches. | ||
| I mean, it sounds horrible to say, but I went the next day to Jersey City to see the aftermath of it. | ||
| And they had targeted specifically this kosher grocery store, and they ended up killing, I think, four people. | ||
| But literally, right above the grocery store to the left, it's a grocery store and then a synagogue. | ||
| And above the synagogue is a school where there were like 50 young children. | ||
| And thank God they weren't murdered. | ||
| Then it comes to light a week ago that they had a bomb in the U-Haul that had the range of five football fields that they wanted to deploy. | ||
| I mean, and everyone was laughing, like, look at these crazy people that believe this crazy ideology. | ||
| Well, this crazy ideology is moving people to do very, very violent things. | ||
| And there are things that haven't even made the news. | ||
| You know, like, you know, if we believe this idea, right, that this, what's going on in Brooklyn is the result of communal friction, well, how does that explain my friend's father-in-law who was walking on the Upper East Side wearing a yarmulke on his head and gets the shit kicked out of him? | ||
| How does that explain my friend Avram, who is a progressive Jew, wears a rainbow yarmulke, is on the subway, and he's had several interactions with this group who scream at him. | ||
| One of them held up a picture of Louis Farrakhan saying, you're not a real Jew, you're a faggot, all of these horrible things. | ||
| This is like creeping in everywhere. | ||
| I had a friend on the Lower East Side that was visibly Jewish, not wearing a black hat, wearing a yarmulke but looked like you or me, got punched. | ||
| This was like two years ago. | ||
| By a black Israelite? | ||
| No, he was just a random guy. | ||
| No, not all of these are black Israelites. | ||
| What I'm saying is that there's this kind of inchoate hate that's been unleashed, and that's the thing that's most disturbing. | ||
| Like if you look at the Anti-Defamation League statistics, only a small percentage of hate crimes committed against Jews, something like 15 percent last year, were committed by white supremacists. | ||
| They're among the most violent and the most visible. | ||
| But who's the rest of them? | ||
| That's actually more alarming to me, the fact that it's like coming from all of these different directions. | ||
| And how do you contain it once it's been unleashed? | ||
| When you think about these social media sites, Gab was one where this guy who shot up the Tree of Life was a member of. | ||
| I'm clearly not a proponent of censorship, but... | ||
| Do people, do you think they get radicalized in these, when you get to a forum where there's no restrictions whatsoever on language or ideology or behavior, you can say whatever you want as long as you're not saying something. | ||
| I mean, Gab has rules like you can't do things that are illegal. | ||
| You can't threaten someone. | ||
| You can't put up their address. | ||
| You can't but you could say a lot of really fucked up shit and they're not gonna they're not gonna police you Do you think that these? | ||
| Places that do allow free speech that there's a catch-22 to it in some ways. | ||
| It's great To be able to express yourself freely But in other ways you can get radicalized and they can they can it can lead to a lot of people forming These groups where they support each other in these fucked up ideas Yeah, I'll say two things. | ||
| One of the reasons that I feel so strongly about keeping the spectrum of acceptable opinions as wide as possible is because I think that the narrower it shrinks, like we're talking about normal ideas being closeted, then people go into these underground layers online and they become radicalized, right? | ||
| Because they're like, the elites or in the mainstream media or whoever – They're not telling the truth. | ||
| They're lying to me. | ||
| So there's this secret world. | ||
| And this secret world has all of these actually bigoted ideas. | ||
| Do you know what I mean? | ||
| So do I think that it is a catch-22? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| I mean, the whole thing about the world we're living in is that you no longer have to find a KKK meeting. | ||
| You don't have to find a jihadist preacher. | ||
| You don't have to go down the line. | ||
| You just have to find a Reddit chat or a 4chan chat or something on gab.com and you find your little online village. | ||
| Like it no longer requires a real person or real interaction. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| And there's no stakes because there's no shame because you can just be totally anonymous in these forums. | ||
| So I think that social media is supercharging this in a way that we can't even grasp. | ||
| And it's very hard for those of us like me and you who want to protect free speech and liberty to think about how to deal with it. | ||
| You're right. | ||
| How do you deal with that? | ||
| Like when you have someone like the Christchurch shooter who was live streaming this and making references to, you know, what did he- I think he referenced the Tree of Life. | ||
| I don't remember. | ||
| Reference PewDiePie as well? | ||
| It's like all in elaborate troll. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| That's what's crazy. | ||
| It's like he's shitposting and murdering at the same time. | ||
| And what is the... | ||
| I mean, there's no, in my eyes, there's no clear solution to that. | ||
| I don't want to restrict free speech. | ||
| I certainly don't want radicalized people to... | ||
| But you also don't want someone to be free to live stream killing people on a platform. | ||
| Right, but how could you... | ||
| They're managing at scale. | ||
| How could you possibly know when someone's live streaming that they're about to go and kill people, right? | ||
| When the guy's never killed anybody before. | ||
| And then all of a sudden he's got this camera on and he walks in the synagogue and he starts shooting people. | ||
| No, I thought it was a mosque with him. | ||
| Oh, that's right. | ||
| It was a mosque with him. | ||
| It was two mosques. | ||
| He killed like 52 people. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, it's all insane. | ||
| How do we manage that? | ||
| I mean, what do we do? | ||
| In my mind, there's no clear answer here. | ||
| There's not a clear answer, but I think that, look, the idea that a private company should be obligated to Stream someone killing someone or let's even go like take it less stakes than that. | ||
| Call Jews kikes. | ||
| Why should a private company say yes to that? | ||
| It's degrading what the platform is. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Yeah, that makes sense. | ||
| That makes sense. | ||
| The question is, where does that line get drawn? | ||
| I know. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| This is the real problem. | ||
| I mean, there's people that get kicked off of certain social media sites for just not representing woke culture. | ||
| For instance, Meghan Markle. | ||
| What is her name? | ||
| Meghan Murphy. | ||
| Meghan Murphy, that woman who got kicked off of Twitter because she said a man is never a woman. | ||
| And she got kicked off for life. | ||
| But this is what I mean about when reasonable opinions, when the spectrum of what is reasonable becomes so narrow, people radicalize. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And they go to these bigoted ideas. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And it's an enormous – like it's like why do we need a healthy conversation about immigration? | ||
| And like in the conversation about immigration is I think very, very limited in what people say and what is acceptable. | ||
| It's like open borders or xenophobia. | ||
| And there has to be a kind of reasonable middle and way to talk about it. | ||
| Because if not, people self-radicalize. | ||
| I just see that happening again and again and again on so many different topics. | ||
| Yeah, the immigration angle is a perfect example of that. | ||
| I mean, it should be absolutely possible for hardworking people to make it to America and do better. | ||
| It also should be possible for us to keep gang members and cartel members from crossing the border freely and shooting people and killing people and selling drugs in our communities and all the things that we're scared of when it comes to the open border policy idea. | ||
| The thing about the social media thing, in a lot of ways, it's this new experiment, right? | ||
| It's something that we've never had before. | ||
| Like you're saying about a KKK meeting, you used to have to go to one, right? | ||
| And now you don't. | ||
| Now you just have to go to Stormfront or whatever website you can find that supports your ideas. | ||
| And this is a new challenge. | ||
| And this is a new challenge that hasn't really been mapped out, nor has it been... | ||
| I don't know if it's been rationally dissected in terms of like, if we do this, this could happen. | ||
| If we don't do this, this could happen. | ||
| Which is A or B better? | ||
| How do we stop A or B from happening? | ||
| How do we somehow or another educate and improve? | ||
| How do we reach out to a lot of these people that are going to get radicalized and offer them some sort of a positive community as a possible alternative? | ||
| Because this is what a lot of this stuff is. | ||
| A lot of these people that get radicalized, one of the things that happens is you don't have anyone that cares about you or supports you, but you find people that very strongly believe in an idea. | ||
| They believe in an idea, an awful idea, so much so that they're willing to kill people for that idea. | ||
| And then you find a bunch of them, and then they reinforce each other's beliefs with these positive affirmations and And essentially, they're signaling to them. | ||
| They're virtue signaling to these horrible people that they also agree with a lot of these ideas. | ||
| And then you go out and you do something. | ||
| You act. | ||
| Like the guy in Charlottesville that ran over that girl. | ||
| These horrific acts are almost... | ||
| They're encouraged and supported by these tight-knit groups of people that all... | ||
| They're all... | ||
| They're all fucked up. | ||
| And fucked up people find each other and hurt people hurt people, right? | ||
| So they find this category of people, this group of people, whether it's online or whether they actually have to go to a KKK meeting. | ||
| And they find support. | ||
| This is a group that somehow or another gets them. | ||
| I think one of the things that's alarming about our politics right now is things that were just regarded up until five years ago as the kind of lunatic fringe have made their way into mainstream politics. | ||
| Steve Bannon proudly declared himself and Breitbart as the platform of the alt-right. | ||
| And then Steve Bannon was sitting down the hall from the President of the United States. | ||
| What was the alt-right in the beginning, though? | ||
| See, the alt-right became something in the public eye. | ||
| In the beginning, I thought the alt-right was like young Republicans that were a little different. | ||
| I don't think that's what the alt-right is. | ||
| No, no, no, not now. | ||
| For sure. | ||
| But I mean, in the beginning, my perceptions of the alt-right in the beginning was like what I thought Milo Yiannopoulos was when he first burst onto the scene. | ||
| Sort of like, you know, a guy who's... | ||
| But the whole thing that Milo has revealed, right, is like it was an ironic posture that revealed – like if you're joking about, you know, fags and kikes, you're still saying the thing. | ||
| Well, but he's gay and he's Jewish and so the idea was that he could get away with these things. | ||
| Provocateur was the word I was looking for. | ||
| That's essentially what he's doing and he's using that to – Build social currency, right? | ||
| That social currency is developing this large group of people that follow him and talk to him and he thinks that there's some merit to his idea so he finds some sort of justification for having these provocative conversations in this stance where he's saying these things and a big proponent of free speech and all these things are happening all at the same time. | ||
| That's what I thought the alt-right was initially. | ||
| What I thought the alt-right was initially Was people that wanted a new, younger, more current take on what a Republican is. | ||
| And then it became racist. | ||
| And then it became, you know, all the things that we think of it now, in terms of like public perceptions. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Who calls themselves alt-right now? | ||
| Who even says they're alt-right? | ||
| I mean, it's almost like such a pejorative. | ||
| Like the label has become so toxic. | ||
| But don't misunderstand the fading of the label for the power of the movement. | ||
| It's just become kind of more normal Republican now. | ||
| Alt-right ideas have been subsumed by the Trumpist Republican Party to some extent. | ||
| Like which ideas? | ||
| I mean... | ||
| Look, like, the idea that some Americans are less American than others, that is certainly an alt-right idea that I think is extremely dangerous. | ||
| I mean, you saw it when—here's a great example. | ||
| When Trump went after the squad, okay, as—and remember when he said that they should go back to the totally broken, crime-infested places that they came from? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| Ha, ha, ha. | ||
| Those people were... | ||
| Three of them were born in America. | ||
| One is a naturalized Jewish citizen. | ||
| The idea there, right, as I heard it, and maybe I'm hearing something you're not, that some Americans, because of their skin color or their ideas, sort of have provisional belonging here, for me is a very, very, it's more than a dog whistle. | ||
| It's something that is deeply un-American and deeply bigoted. | ||
| If he had said that about one person who had come here from somewhere else that was awful and was criticizing America, then that would have been a more valid statement, and that would be like, Ilion Omar is not from America, initially, Shafiq. | ||
| No, Ilyan Omar, no, and I can't stand her ideas, but she's a naturalized citizen who was sworn to uphold the values of the Constitution. | ||
| She's just as American as me or Donald Trump or you. | ||
| No, I agree. | ||
| And I also agree that this idea, like, go back to where you were that sucks... | ||
| Is the response to someone criticizing the way things are here is pretty ridiculous. | ||
| You don't have to go back to where it sucks. | ||
| You're here and you're a United States citizen. | ||
| You just think that this place should be better. | ||
| Yes, and you can disagree with their ideas, but that concept, right, that you're not entirely of a place, that is something that has been used against Jews forever. | ||
| The idea that you're not fully Iraqi because you're Jewish. | ||
| Or you're not fully American because you're Jewish. | ||
| Or you're not fully French because you're Jewish. | ||
| Like, the idea of provisional belonging is something that I'm extremely sensitive to. | ||
| So it's a toxic tribalism that's attached to the concept, the alt-right ideas. | ||
| Well, but then the alt-right ideas, like... | ||
| I mean, look at who Steve Bannon has made common cause with, right? | ||
| People like Nigel Farage, people like Marine Le Pen. | ||
| I mean, there was a really good documentary about Steve Bannon where he's meeting with people who really are not just like normal conservatives. | ||
| Who is Marine Le Pen? | ||
| Marine Le Pen, what is her party's name in France? | ||
| She is a... | ||
| A deeply xenophobic politician in France whose father was profoundly anti-Semitic. | ||
| She claims that she's not, but she's someone that, you know, you say her name in any Jewish community. | ||
| Yes, she is. | ||
| President of the National Front. | ||
| Just that name, National Front, it sounds like Stormfront. | ||
| It's really not pretty. | ||
| Marion Ann Perrine, a French politician and lawyer serving as president of the National Rally political party since 2011 with a brief interruption in 2017. She's been the member of the National... | ||
| It doesn't say what she does. | ||
| It doesn't say. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| Anyway. | ||
| So, back to her. | ||
| Or Jews or... | ||
| Nigel Farage. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, just like... | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I see ideas getting expressed. | ||
| Like there are people that Tucker Carlson has had on his show who are like avowed white nationalists. | ||
| Like who? | ||
| Recently. | ||
| Can you Google that, Jamie? | ||
| There was a guy that he had on the other day. | ||
| Or even these whistles, right, of like, there's a way to criticize. | ||
| Did you find it? | ||
| Sorry. | ||
| There's a way to criticize. | ||
| Well, I lost my train of thought. | ||
| Oh, no worries. | ||
| There's a certain, here it goes, a list of Tucker Carlson's guests who have links to white nationalism. | ||
| But has he agreed with these people? | ||
| Has he argued against their ideas? | ||
| Roger Stone? | ||
| No, no. | ||
| Roger Stone's a white nationalist? | ||
| No. | ||
| His links to white nationalism? | ||
| No, I don't think there's... | ||
| Peter Dabrowski? | ||
| No, there was something more recently. | ||
| Wasn't the first white nationalist, Tucker Carlson? | ||
| Okay. | ||
| That was 2018, anyway. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I mean, are you not alarmed by the turn that you see in the Republican Party towards sort of like, I don't know, the Trumpist cult? | ||
| Well, I think one thing the Republican Party has done that's wise if you want to keep a solidified team is that they haven't come out against him and they've supported him and there's very little dissent. | ||
| And this is a good idea if you want your team to win, right? | ||
| And there was a lot of people who were kind of never Trumpers, who softened their stance once they realized the power of his presidency, that he's really dominant. | ||
| They're sometimes Trumpers. | ||
| Sometimes Trumpers, yeah. | ||
| Yeah, I'm alarmed. | ||
| I'm alarmed whenever there's an outward lack of compassion. | ||
| And when there's an outward disdain for the other. | ||
| Because essentially this country is all the other. | ||
| The whole thing. | ||
| That's all we have is the other. | ||
| I mean, that's the whole thing. | ||
| Well, and the whole thing that... | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| I mean, there's just – Trump has just beyond the sort of like – he said various things that are like – he was speaking to a Jewish group and he talked about your prime minister. | ||
| I mean, he said so many things that are ridiculous. | ||
| But the big, big thing that he's guilty of is he has like dismantled – The guardrails of the keep society decent and civil and normal. | ||
| And like once you dismantle those things, like it's very easy to reverse – not very easy, but you can reverse policies. | ||
| What's much harder to reverse is a culture. | ||
| And he has just been gleefully making war on what I think of as very, very important cultural norms. | ||
| Like – Like, not attacking the weakest people in our culture. | ||
| Like, not attacking Gold Star families. | ||
| Like, I mean, he has attacked, he has denigrated, like, the most heroic and the weakest people in our culture at every possible turn. | ||
| Yeah, the Gold Star family thing was very disturbing and weird how it just kind of went away. | ||
| I remember that moment. | ||
| Remember when he – people forget this – when he said about Judge Alonzo Curiel, who was born in this country, that he couldn't give a fair hearing to Trump University because he was born in Mexico? | ||
| I mean, this is an American. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes! | |
| When was this? | ||
| Years ago? | ||
| It was during the candidacy. | ||
| Really? | ||
| Was it? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Wow. | |
| Jesus Christ. | ||
| Didn't he say something about loyal Jews wouldn't vote Democrat as well? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, yeah. | |
| That the Jews are disloyal because they don't vote Republican because look at all the great things he's done for Israel. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That if you're a loyal Jew to Israel, you would vote Republican. | ||
| Yeah, or that the Jews who don't vote for him are disloyal. | ||
| I mean, yeah, that was a high point. | ||
| But I mean, just the main – I feel like I haven't given you a satisfying answer about anti-Semitism itself. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I think the way to think about it – Do you remember this? | |
| It's too jarring to read. | ||
| Indiana-born federal judge who President Donald Trump once said could not be impartial because he was Mexican cleared a major obstacle standing in the way of Trump's long-promised border wall with Mexico. | ||
| Right, so I hear that and I'm like, oh, that's... | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Crazy. | ||
| It's all feeding this idea that there are some people who are more American than others, that are more belonging than others. | ||
| And I think that idea is despicable. | ||
| It reinforces his tribe. | ||
| And that's one thing that Donald Trump has clearly done is cultivate a tribe. | ||
| He is a tribe. | ||
| They have a hat. | ||
| They have a slogan. | ||
| And it's a weird slogan because it seems so positive. | ||
| Make America Great Again. | ||
| That seems positive. | ||
| But it's not. | ||
| People will punch you if you have that hat on. | ||
| It's so crazy. | ||
| We've gotten to a point in society that something that's a positive statement, like Make America Great Again, is so polarizing that people will be violent towards you and feel like they need to. | ||
| They feel like they need to laugh, like you're the enemy. | ||
| This is, again... | ||
| When it comes to the idea of the tribe, you know, there's positive aspects of tribalism, right? | ||
| There's positive aspects of community. | ||
| There's positive aspects of people supporting each other. | ||
| And then there's negative aspects. | ||
| The tribalism that we're experiencing in this country politically is very toxic. | ||
| And we're all aware of it. | ||
| And the tribalism that we're experiencing ideologically is very toxic, where there is no nuance and you're either with us or against us. | ||
| I think there's some parallels to anti-Semitism. | ||
| There's some... | ||
| Well, yeah. | ||
| Yeah, please. | ||
| Well, no, I was going to say that, like, that is a culture, the whole culture you just described is one that's deeply unhealthy for Jews or any difference, really. | ||
| And, yeah, it's just not a coincidence that anti-Semitism is rising. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Because there's such a small... | |
| Percentage of Jewish people also. | ||
| That club, that tribe, rather. | ||
| I mean, even though there's millions of Jews, there's hundreds of millions of non-Jews. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| But it's also we're a tribe that anyone, like I said, you can join us. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| You know, it's not- It takes a lot of work, though. | ||
| Sure, but- You join the Mormons like that. | ||
| Yes, you can. | ||
| But you join the Mormons, like, you declare the faith, you put on the undergarments, you're Mormon. | ||
| But if you join the Muslims, they're allowed to kill you if you leave. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Apostasy. | ||
| Yeah, but I don't, yeah. | ||
| That's the, look, I mean, it is or it isn't. | ||
| I met this amazing guy last night who we were talking about, he grew up in Egypt. | ||
| Hussein Abu Bakr is his name. | ||
| He's really incredible. | ||
| Grew up in Egypt and was, you know, he was like, I was swimming in antisemitism. | ||
| I just didn't even know it wasn't normal. | ||
| Like, the mosque I went to, the school I went to, it was like the Jews were this supervillain And the whole message was like, become a superhero and go and kill and defeat the Jews. | ||
| And he was like, I went to a normal mosque, normal school. | ||
| This is what I was taught, and I never met a Jew in my life. | ||
| And he gets arrested during the Arab Spring because he starts learning Hebrew online. | ||
| He's really curious about who the Jews are, and he gets arrested. | ||
| I think they're suspicious that he's a Zionist spy. | ||
| Anyway, he ends up getting asylum. | ||
|
unidentified
|
He lives here in L.A. He got arrested for learning Hebrew? | |
| Whoa. | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| You think I can just go visit Egypt? | ||
| I mean, no. | ||
| These are... | ||
| So if you wanted to visit the pyramids, you'd be fucked. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| Well, I might specifically be fucked because I have a public profile as a Jew. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| You don't want to go looking online for my name in some of these forums. | ||
| It's really scary. | ||
| Do you look at it? | ||
| No. | ||
| No. | ||
| There are people who look at it for me and tell me what I need to be aware of. | ||
| Every synagogue I speak to, people don't realize it. | ||
| I went to a synagogue Friday night in LA. There's armed guards at every synagogue and Jewish function that I go to now. | ||
| It's like going through TSA to go to... | ||
| Imagine that if most Americans had to do that when they went into church. | ||
| We would think that's insane. | ||
| But that is the state of affairs for Jews. | ||
| And Jews that I know hide evidence of their identity everywhere they go. | ||
| There was a woman who wrote me who was reading my book on the subway in New York and was like, I'm nervous to be seen reading a book with this title in public and hit it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Jesus Christ. | |
| But I understand why. | ||
| Because it's become so regular and everyone else just is living their normal life and we're like sounding the alarm here. | ||
| Because if there's one thing the Jews have gotten really good at, it's like we have an instinct for danger. | ||
| Like that is something that we have cultivated over years of being discriminated against, persecuted against, nearly wiped off the map in Europe. | ||
| Like we understand and we smell danger sometimes before other people. | ||
| Do you think that anti-Semitism is more prominent on the East Coast than the West Coast? | ||
| I think that's a good question. | ||
| There are just more Jews on the East Coast than the West Coast. | ||
| There's a lot of Jews out here. | ||
| There are. | ||
| Yeah, there are. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I don't live out here, so I'm not sure. | ||
| I also think it's different, right? | ||
| Like, there are different kinds of anti-Semitism. | ||
| Like the kind that we've talked about that comes on the far right expresses itself one way. | ||
| And there's also anti-Semitism that comes smuggled into the mainstream through the political left that comes cloaked in language that is very seductive, like the language of social justice and progress. | ||
| And if the right claims that the Jews are, you know, fake white people, the far left claims that the Jews are handmaidens to white supremacy. | ||
| Right? | ||
| So whiteness plays like a really, really key role in the way that anti-Semitism functions, right? | ||
| Let me explain it this way. | ||
| Anti-Semitism is a shape-shifting conspiracy theory. | ||
| Accept that, right? | ||
| And that is how under Nazism, Jews are the race contaminators. | ||
| How under communism, we are the arch-capitalists, right? | ||
| How under the idea of white supremacy, we are these fake white people, right? | ||
| We appear to be white people, but we're actually doing the bidding of these groups who white supremacists view to be lesser than black people, brown people, Muslims, immigrants. | ||
| And how on the far left, the Jews are seen as sort of the great—what is the greatest evil right now to the far left? | ||
| whiteness and white privilege. | ||
| And Jews are seen as sort of handmaidens to that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Why? | |
| Because of our success, because many of us are of Eastern European descent, 85% of American Jews are of Ashkenazi, which is of Eastern European descent. | ||
| So we pass as white, so we have white privilege. | ||
| And so in the intersectional view of the world, right, which reverses the caste system that we've been living in until now, where you have someone like Jon Hamm at the very top, and black, transgender disabled people at the very bottom. | ||
| Well, the intersectional worldview comes around and reverses that and says, no, Jon Hamm and cisgendered white men like Joe Rogan are now at the very bottom and at the very top are the transgender, black, disabled person. | ||
| And so where are the Jews in that new intersectional caste system of the world? | ||
| We're kind of like right above Jon Hamm. | ||
| We're right near him because we enjoy all of the sort of privileges that he enjoys. | ||
| It's a crazy thing, but that's sort of where we are. | ||
| The handmaidens to white privilege or white supremacy is very strange. | ||
| That's a very strange one. | ||
| And the anti-Israeli sentiment. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| No, I understand what you're saying. | ||
| And while I see it with people where they openly express disdain for Jewish people, I've seen it from a lot of people that you would call It's like, I think of it very crudely, if racism is the sin that's sort of acceptable on the far right, hating Jews is the sin that's acceptable on the far left. | ||
| The far left, because of support for Israel, they believe that Israel is dominating Palestine and that Hezbollah is misunderstood. | ||
| And then there's all these different sentiments that get expressed openly in these left circles. | ||
| Mm-hmm. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| And they're telling, you know, they're basically propagating, they're repeating without even realizing it, this Soviet propaganda line, which is that Zionism is racism, which is an unbelievable thing to say, because the majority of Jews who live in Israel are Jews of North African and Middle Eastern descent. | ||
| They are non-white people. | ||
| They are Arabs. | ||
| They are Arab Jews. | ||
| And yet you have the far left basically exporting parochial domestic American racial politics onto a foreign conflict in place that they know absolutely nothing about. | ||
| You know, these people are delusional. | ||
| They think that like all of the conflict in the Middle East would be resolved if only we took care of this one tiny conflict between this tiny group of people and their neighbors. | ||
| Where in fact, it's like a tiny local conflict in this huge drama of the Middle East of which there are a zillion players. | ||
| And, you know, the Jews of Israel are only one tiny part of it. | ||
| The Zionist thing is, define the difference between Jewish and Zionist. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| Zionist is the idea of that the Jews have a right to national self-determination. | ||
| The Jewish – should I keep going? | ||
| Yeah, please. | ||
| You looked at me like I should. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| The Jewish longing to return to the land of Israel is something that's like inescapable if you read the Bible, right? | ||
| Like it's all over there. | ||
| the whole idea of, and you can discount it, discount God, whatever. | ||
| The fact is, is that the Jews are a people that were birthed sort of in this land, which we now call the land of Israel, and they somehow, and they were expelled by the Romans around 2000 years ago, and then they came back to that land, right? and they were expelled by the Romans around 2000 years It's like they defied the logic of history. | ||
| In doing that. | ||
| Because by all rights, they were an indigenous group to that land. | ||
| They were kicked out and expelled. | ||
| And then they went back 2000 years later. | ||
| Like it's a crazy, extraordinary story. | ||
| So leave that to one part. | ||
| Zionism, the way that I think is the simplest definition, is the belief in the Jewish right to self-determination, and it's the Jewish liberation movement. | ||
| And so, let's go back to, like, pre-1948, which is the year that the state of Israel is established. | ||
| And you have Jews in, you know, Poland and all of these other places debating, like, what is the way that we can solve our constant problems? | ||
| Like the systemic oppression that we are constantly enduring. | ||
| And there were all of these different responses to that problem. | ||
| One argument was the socialist argument. | ||
| You know, if we, or the, you know, the anti-capitalist argument, if the problem is capitalism, and if only we defeat capitalism, anti-Semitism will go away. | ||
| Some argued that total assimilation was the right way to solve it. | ||
| We just need to kind of disappear as Jews. | ||
| That's the only way we'll be fully accepted. | ||
| And another group, you know, which was not even the most popular group, is this idea of we need to be able to determine our own fate. | ||
| And we will never be fully accepted. | ||
| The only way that we can determine our own fate is this idea of us having our own state and our own army where we can protect ourselves. | ||
| And that is ultimately the idea that sort of wins out. | ||
| So when you're having a debate about, you know, when people say today they're an anti-Zionist, The reason that that is so problematic is they're not making that argument in 1920s Eastern Europe when the state doesn't exist. | ||
| It's one thing to be an anti-Zionist in theory, right? | ||
| It's the same. | ||
| The analogy I like to make is if we're a couple and we want to have a baby and we're debating should we have the baby? | ||
| Can we afford the baby? | ||
| Where are we going to send the baby to school? | ||
| All this stuff. | ||
| That's a totally moral argument to make. | ||
| You can't make that argument of should we have the baby after the baby is born. | ||
| The baby is born. | ||
| It exists. | ||
| Israel exists. | ||
| It's a place. | ||
| It's not an idea. | ||
| It's not an abstraction. | ||
| It is a place that contains the largest Jewish community on planet Earth. | ||
| And so when people say that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, it's like, what are you talking about? | ||
| It exists. | ||
| So what do you want? | ||
| So I asked the person that makes the anti-Zionist argument, what do you imagine will happen? | ||
| Like, are you, do you think that you're advocating for a genocide? | ||
| Right away, or like, you have to have no sense of Middle Eastern history or politics to make the argument that you can be a minority in that region without protection. | ||
| We know what that looks like. | ||
| That looks like the story of the Yazidis. | ||
| It looks like the story of the Kurds, the story of the Zoroastrians, the story, frankly, of Christians who are going to be completely expelled from the Middle East within the next decade, which is a story no one talks about. | ||
| So, the anti-Zionist sentiment, when people start talking about Zionists, what they're essentially talking about is Israel just existing. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| They're anti-Israel existing. | ||
| Correct. | ||
| And Jeremy Corbyn made this very plain where he actually said the words, the BBC has a bias towards believing that Israel has a right to exist. | ||
| He said that? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| So he's on the left. | ||
| He epitomizes the sort of anti-Zionism which bleeds into anti-Semitism of the far left. | ||
| Meaning, let me put it this way. | ||
| Anti-Zionism has become such a plank of normative political progressivism that if you're an 18-year-old and you go onto a college campus and you're like – during the orientation week, you're signing up for legalizing pot club and better rights for cafeteria workers. | ||
| Oh, and by the way, the boycott, divest, sanctions movement against Israel, which is an anti-Zionist movement. | ||
| You're not an anti-Semite. | ||
| You don't hate Jews. | ||
| You're just kind of like swimming along with progressive waters because that's how successful this movement has been. | ||
| But if you step back and you're like, wait, hold on, there's a political movement gaining popularity in the West that was in fact embodied in the person of Jeremy Corbyn and what became of his Labor Party that believes that there's only one state in the world that doesn't have a right to exist? | ||
| Like, that's crazy. | ||
| I can't believe he actually said that. | ||
| He did. | ||
| He said a lot of things apparently. | ||
| He definitely said it. | ||
| He's a ridiculous person. | ||
| One of my favorite things that he said was, what is he, like fucking 60? | ||
| He's like, my pronouns are he, him. | ||
| I'm like, shut the fuck up. | ||
| I see what you're doing. | ||
| I know what you're doing. | ||
| You need to tell anybody your pronouns? | ||
| He got crushed. | ||
| But I think the thing to like, the analogy I make is like, America has done horrible things. | ||
| We have, you know, the example everyone loves right now is children in cages at the border. | ||
| It's a disgusting, immoral thing that we're doing. | ||
| But no one goes from that horrible policy to say, America shouldn't exist and we should just meld into Canada or Mexico. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| And by the way, they're saying that, they're making that argument in a context where they are literally surrounded by neighbors who want to murder as many Jewish Israelis as possible. | ||
| Like, It's an immoral argument. | ||
| It's an argument that I really can't wrap my mind around, like how people get away with making it. | ||
| But it's a strange concept to even say that it doesn't have the right to exist when it does exist. | ||
| Correct. | ||
| So I could see how you could say... | ||
| Did he say it? | ||
| What does he say? | ||
| Jeremy Corbyn accused of anti-Semitism over shocking 2011 video in which he questions Israel's right to exist and says the BBC is biased in favor of the Jewish state. | ||
| Questions are right to exist. | ||
| See, I could see how someone could say that there is evidence that some Israeli soldiers have done horrific things to Palestinian people. | ||
| Of course they have. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Of course they have. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| I will never deny that. | ||
| And I could see how you could look at where Palestine is and the state of the Palestinian people and saying there has to be a better way for them. | ||
| It has to be a better civilization for them. | ||
| It has to improve. | ||
| These are human beings. | ||
| It has to be a better civilization. | ||
| Just a better situation. | ||
| I mean, they're not even recognized as a true state or as a true country by a lot of people. | ||
| I could see that. | ||
| I believe that. | ||
| Yes, I'm sure you do. | ||
| I believe that because I'm a human. | ||
| That's important to distinguish, right? | ||
| Yes, I believe that because I'm a human being. | ||
| And I believe that also because I'm a Zionist. | ||
| I don't want the state of Israel and the state that's supposed to be embodying Jewish ideas to be occupying another people. | ||
| Like that is horrible. | ||
| What can be done about? | ||
| Well, here's the problem, right? | ||
| We saw what happened in the Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip. | ||
| It pulled out completely all of the settlements from the Gaza Strip. | ||
| There's not a single Jew left there. | ||
| It's completely Judenrein. | ||
| And yet Hamas is still sending tons of rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israel. | ||
| The occupation there is ended. | ||
| It's over. | ||
| And that's still going on. | ||
| And so then you have to ask yourself, like, does the average Palestinian, like I believe that the average Palestinian, I've spent time in the West Bank talking to Palestinians whose lives are immiserated. | ||
| By the Israeli occupation? | ||
| Like, they just want to live a normal life, you know? | ||
| And yet they are being held hostage. | ||
| I spoke to this young mother in Gaza who fled, and she said to me on the phone, we're being sort of immiserated twice. | ||
| You know, once was by Israel and now by our own leaders, by Hamas. | ||
| These are like kleptocratic authoritarian regimes that hate women, that hate gay people. | ||
| I mean, it's horrible. | ||
| Life under these regimes is absolutely horrible. | ||
| So the problem is Israel then sees what happens in Gaza and they're like, okay, we're in this situation where we want to be a liberal democracy and yet we're occupying another people. | ||
| It's an untenable situation if you want to be a liberal democracy to occupy another people. | ||
| The problem is Literally, geographically, if they pull out of the West Bank, they will likely have another situation like they had in Gaza. | ||
| And now all of a sudden, not only do you have rockets going to the south of the country in places like Starot from Gaza, you have rockets capable of reaching Tel Aviv and the population centers of Israel. | ||
| So what do you do? | ||
| What do you do? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| Does anyone know? | ||
| Does anyone have a rational course? | ||
| No. | ||
| Really, no. | ||
| I mean, I think one of the places we've arrived to is like, what does Palestinian nationalism really seek? | ||
| Western liberals like me want, for years, I told myself, and I think this was certainly like the view of lots of experts, that what Palestinian nationalism really wanted was a Palestinian state. | ||
| Palestinians just want self-determination like everyone else in the world. | ||
| And I am absolutely on board with that. | ||
| The problem is, is that they're leaders and then you look at some of these polls and the numbers are really disturbing and they say, no, the goal is not having our own state alongside Israel. | ||
| The goal is erasing Israel. | ||
| The goal is for Israel not to be there. | ||
| And then you look at the evidence of all of these peace offers that were, you know, Oslo and Camp David, and we can go on and on, and they were all rejected. | ||
| So it's like, is the goal your own land and having a place of your own? | ||
| Or have we told ourselves, and I include myself in this, a lie about what Palestinian nationalism, or at least parts of it, seek? | ||
| And that's really, really upsetting to confront. | ||
| So the hardcore position from people like from Hezbollah is that Israel is stolen from the Palestinian people. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But Hezbollah remembers in southern Lebanon. | ||
| But they're all Iranian proxies. | ||
| Hamas, Hezbollah, they're all Iranian proxies. | ||
| Hezbollah is an Iranian proxy, yeah. | ||
| And Hamas as well, right? | ||
| And all their position is that Israel shouldn't exist. | ||
| Oh, absolutely. | ||
| They do not want any Jewish state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. | ||
| They believe that any Jewish presence in the Middle East is heretical. | ||
| That's what they believe. | ||
| That's probably also... | ||
| Accentuated by our support for Israel, right? | ||
| Because the United States is fully in support of Israel militarily, politically, socially. | ||
| I mean, that's like saying, you know, I'm trying to think of the right analogy here. | ||
| These are terrorist groups. | ||
| Unless you think terrorism is rational, I don't think that anything is accentuated by it. | ||
| I think they would think that about Israel, whether or not the US was supporting Israel. | ||
| When you see a situation like that where there doesn't seem to be a solution, it's Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| not believe right now you can resolve the conflict because Israelis who have lived through times where it was normal for buses and cafes to just blow up. | ||
| You know, the number of people I know who were touched by the second intifada, like I was there during times where, you know, a cafe would just blow up down the street. | ||
| So they have been thoroughly disabused of the idea that I think that many of them have given up on the idea that there could be peace in the short term. | ||
| So what can you do? | ||
| Right now to make things a little bit better. | ||
| You can improve the economic life for people, for Palestinians living in the West Bank. | ||
| And you can try and shrink the conflict, meaning no settlement expansion. | ||
| And I would say pull out of some of these Jewish settlements that are like, you know, far flung and that the Israeli army is sort of protecting for no reason. | ||
| But I think that's the best case scenario for right now. | ||
| For right now. | ||
| There's a book, I think it's called Catch 67 by Mika Goodman that I would recommend to people that's about how to shrink the conflict and that for now being the best case scenario. | ||
| But again, it's like, you have to ask yourself, why is everyone in the world obsessed about this particular conflict? | ||
| There's a weird obsession with it. | ||
| Why do you think that is? | ||
| I think it's inescapable that part of it is an obsession with the Jews. | ||
| Like, there are 500,000 Palestinians living in Lebanon, most of whom live in refugee camps, and by official Lebanese law are barred from being lawyers, from being doctors, from being accountants. | ||
| It's a horrible situation. | ||
| Do you think most people in the world know about the situation of the Palestinian immiseration in Lebanon? | ||
| They don't even know Palestinians are in Lebanon or in Jordan. | ||
| They have no idea. | ||
| The reason is because, you know, it's like Palestinian lives matter when the people that are hurting them are Jews. | ||
| They don't seem to matter when the people that are hurting them are other Arabs. | ||
| That's one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about. | ||
| This acceptance of anti-Semitism almost globally is unique. | ||
| It's a weird racism or a weird discrimination. | ||
| It's weird. | ||
| It doesn't parallel with any other sort of discrimination. | ||
| Right. | ||
| It's like people aren't sitting around thinking about how, you know, left-handed people or Koreans are uniquely evil. | ||
| Like, they're sitting around thinking about that with regard to the Jews. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| There's going to be a certain amount of population, a certain percentage of the population, no matter what, that's going to hold those beliefs. | ||
| And these have been passed down for thousands of years. | ||
| Yes, and the challenge is to keep society as healthy as possible, to keep those forces at bay. | ||
| Really? | ||
| I mean, it's really, it's unbelievable the extent to which it's become accepted. | ||
| Like, I'll give you an example. | ||
| Like there was, and this is the way that anti-Zionism presents itself. | ||
| Anti-Zionism, I think, is the modern form, one of the modern forms of anti-Semitism. | ||
| Because what else do you call a movement that says that the Jewish state that already exists does not have a right to exist? | ||
| Like, that sounds like, oh, that's like a cool theory. | ||
| But it's like, it exists. | ||
| They live there. | ||
| They are surrounded by people that want to murder them. | ||
| So what are you suggesting? | ||
| That it just like goes away? | ||
| Like, the effect of it would be nothing less than unbelievable bloodshed. | ||
| And yet, lots of people in this world are going around calling themselves anti-Zionists. | ||
| Trevor Burrus Do you think that they've – it seems like Almost a sentiment that gets expressed that hasn't been really examined. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And it has nothing to do with criticism of Israel. | ||
| Israeli government is full of lunatics, just like our government, just like any other normal country. | ||
| But it's like Israel's not treated like a normal country. | ||
| It's treated in a way like this has these superpowers, both superpowers to affect peace in the Middle East and superpowers to like a supervillain. | ||
| It's both at once. | ||
| People hate a country that doesn't exist, and they love a country that doesn't exist. | ||
| They project themselves and their ideas of things onto this place, and it's just like a normal country. | ||
| That's where it's so strange, because that's where there really doesn't seem to be a way out of this. | ||
| Because it's an idea that hasn't been fully explored but has been expressed so frivolously almost. | ||
| Well, it's like if you think about if there was a movement in the world that suggested that, you know, the Japanese weren't a real people and Japan does not have a right to exist. | ||
| Like, think about how crazy that sounds. | ||
| But that's a normal thing that a lot of people believe. | ||
| A lot of people that you and I know. | ||
| Why did you write the book? | ||
| What was your goal? | ||
| When you sat down and you decided you're going to write this book, How to Fight Antisemitism, what were you thinking? | ||
| Well, first of all, I wrote, I was supposed to write another book that I'm still on the hook for. | ||
| I went and begged my publisher to do this because after Pittsburgh, I just kind of couldn't stop seeing it everywhere I looked. | ||
| And honestly, like, yeah, I think if Pittsburgh hadn't happened, I wouldn't have written this first, but I just became so passionate about it and so passionate about, here's, I think, maybe the shortest answer for this. | ||
| When we talk about antisemitism, even you and I, like we think about Jews, like the Jews on the streets of Brooklyn or in Pittsburgh or in that synagogue in California, as being the victims of it. | ||
| And they are. | ||
| But the real bigger victim of it is the surrounding society. | ||
| When anti-Semitism shows itself in a culture, it means that that culture is extremely broken or in some stage of death. | ||
| And the reason that I think it's so important and the reason I ultimately wrote the book is I want people to understand that the fact that anti-Semitism is rising in America says nothing about Jews. | ||
| It says everything about America and where we are right now. | ||
| Like, we don't want to become a place where anti-Semitism is normalized. | ||
| Because guess what? | ||
| Societies where anti-Semitism become normalized are societies that no longer exist on the face of the earth. | ||
| I like how you described it in your book as a symptom like that we all have certain bacteria or we all have certain viruses, but our immune system keeps them at bay. | ||
| When those viruses show themselves, it's a sign that the immune system is weak, that the body itself is weak. | ||
| That's exactly right. | ||
| Couldn't have said it better. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's how I said it. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| I think that's true. | ||
| And the question, right, is how do we rebuild back our immune system? | ||
| And one of the reasons that I'm alarmed by, I completely understand the populist moment, but I'm also scared of it because populism often does not end well. | ||
| For Jews, or for the political center. | ||
| And I think one of the reasons that we need to, like, how do we rebuild our immune system? | ||
| Like, those are the sort of things that I suggest in the last chapter of the book. | ||
| And I think, I just hope we can do them. | ||
| Because I'm really, really alarmed that we're living in an America in 2020, where people I know, you know, who wear a Jewish star, like, put it inside their shirt when they walk down the street. | ||
| That's crazy. | ||
| Like, that's crazy to me. | ||
| Imagine if that was a crucifix. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| If it was the same fear. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I mean, to say nothing, by the way, of like, Jews in France that have, you know, they've been hiding themselves for a very, very long time. | ||
| That's normal there. | ||
| You know, a lot of Jews I know are taking shooting lessons. | ||
| I just had a guy reach out to me that was like, I read your book, I've read your speeches, I think you're great, but none of them are going to help you if someone attacks you on the street. | ||
| Let me teach you Krav Maga self-defense. | ||
| So I'm going to do that. | ||
| Are you really? | ||
| Hell yeah, of course I am. | ||
| Krav Maga is legit. | ||
| Yeah, I'm definitely doing it. | ||
| They basically take the best aspects of all martial arts and combine them together. | ||
| Striking, grappling, self-defense techniques. | ||
| I'm going to do it. | ||
| You're going to get a gun? | ||
| I can't. | ||
| I live in New York. | ||
| You can get a gun in New York. | ||
| I think it's hard again. | ||
| Really? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It's not that hard. | ||
| I have to tell you, I hate, like, the few times that I've gone shooting, I hate it. | ||
| Yeah? | ||
| I really do. | ||
| Just go with me. | ||
| It stresses me out. | ||
| Okay, I'll go with you. | ||
| You might enjoy it more. | ||
| Okay, I'll do it. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Are you serious? | ||
| Yeah, I'll take you, for sure. | ||
| Next time you're in town, I'll take you to Taron Tactical. | ||
| Okay, the other thing- Light up some targets. | ||
| Okay, let's do it. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| I think I should know how to shoot better than I do. | ||
| Yeah, they'll teach you how to shoot right. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| The other thing I was thinking about is, like, what would it look like if you got some, like, of your MMA buddies to put on, you know, to dress like Hasidic Jews and walk around Brooklyn in the next few months? | ||
| Oh, God. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Like... | |
| They have things to do. | ||
| They can't go out vigilante-style and act like superheroes and beat people up. | ||
| It would go away! | ||
| Like, seriously! | ||
| It's like... | ||
| These guys are being preyed on because the people attacking them know they're not going to fight back. | ||
| Right, I see what you're saying. | ||
| What if they go and punch a guy and the guy just like wrecks him? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You know, you get enough of those, enough viral videos, maybe the whole thing will die down. | ||
| What do you think? | ||
| I think that's a simplistic view. | ||
| Yeah, it doesn't usually work that way. | ||
| It works that way in comic books. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Maybe. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| Listen, Barry, thank you so much. | ||
| Your book is out right now, How to Fight Antisemitism, available everywhere. | ||
| There's also an excellent audiobook that I was listening to. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you. | |
| You're really good narrating it. | ||
| Thank you very much. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you. | |
| Bye, everybody. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Woo! |
Export Selection