Dec. 5, 2019 - The Joe Rogan Experience
03:42:07
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| Alright, here we go. | ||
| First of all, welcome, James. | ||
| Good to see you. | ||
| I really appreciate you having me on. | ||
| My pleasure. | ||
| And welcome again, Chris. | ||
| So, this is essentially giving you an opportunity to refute some of the things that Chris has said about your film. | ||
| We should tell everybody that you're the producer of Game Changers. | ||
| Yeah, I'm one of two producers. | ||
| One of two producers. | ||
| I know you also, of course, from The Ultimate Fighter, UFC. And Chris, this is your, what, fourth appearance here? | ||
| Fourth or fifth. | ||
| Did you get a chance to see what Chris had said? | ||
| Yeah, I've watched it. | ||
| I've made a bunch of notes. | ||
| Excellent. | ||
| Let's start from the beginning. | ||
| The beginning of the show, the beginning of your film, you talked about the gladiators and all that stuff and the fact that you were shocked to find out that they had eaten a vegetarian diet. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah. | |
| I mean, you know, that's been misrepresented, right? | ||
| So even before the film came out, people were like, oh, there's this vegan film coming out. | ||
| It's vegan propaganda. | ||
| People were judging the film before they'd seen it, right? | ||
| And the vegan sort of community really pushed it like, hey, look at this documentary. | ||
| So there's been things saying they claimed that the gladiators were vegan, right? | ||
| And if we can just prove they think the whole film is based on this premise. | ||
| That was just like an inciting incident for me to start digging into it. | ||
| First of all, Fabian Kant said they were predominantly vegetarian, and I said they ate mostly plants, and that is what I couldn't believe, right? | ||
| So we didn't claim that they were vegan, didn't even claim that they were vegetarian, they were just fueled mostly by plants. | ||
| You know, and people say, oh, you cherry-picked one location. | ||
| It was the only known gladiator burial site in the world based on archaeological and anthropological data at the time. | ||
| At the time where you read the study? | ||
| Because there have been other studies. | ||
| Well, there's been some that have been questioned. | ||
| So, like, there's one in York. | ||
| There was one in York at the time that had a few gladiator skeletons. | ||
| And it was questioned whether that was the thing. | ||
| But I'm happy to address every critique. | ||
| But if you wouldn't mind, I just want to make sure that Chris is on the same page about how evidence is evaluated. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| So, Chris, would you consider yourself a nutrition expert? | ||
| No. | ||
| I would consider myself someone who is adept at reading the literature and learning from experts in nutrition, medicine, anthropology, etc. | ||
| Although I do have master's level training in nutrition. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So, is it fair to say that any one study cannot show what, you know, the human race should be eating? | ||
| Is that fair? | ||
| Any one study? | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| So basically, any time you show a study, if you say something, you have to give a citation for it, right? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Is that fair to say? | ||
| And then someone can claim that that's cherry-picked. | ||
| Because you've got to show a study or some studies, and then someone can claim it's cherry-picked, right? | ||
| So what we have to do in order to understand nutrition is look at the totality of the evidence. | ||
| And I just want to make sure that we're on the same page, and then we can address each critique, if that's okay. | ||
| Is that okay? | ||
|
unidentified
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Sure. | |
| That is the core of my argument. | ||
| Right, exactly. | ||
| So you would say, is it fair to say like there's three main areas? | ||
| So there'd be like preclinical data, which would either be in animals or in test tubes, petri dishes, right? | ||
| There'd be observational data, where you look at people and see how they're doing. | ||
| And obviously there's the healthy user bias potential. | ||
| And there's interventional trials, right? | ||
| So let's just take trans fats, for example, right? | ||
| You look in a petri dish at endothelial cells and trans fats and you can see that it creates vascular inflammation in those cells, right? | ||
| And then you look at people who eat more trans fats and they have higher levels of inflammation. | ||
| And then you can actually do interventional randomized controlled trials and you can tell that trans fats cause inflammation. | ||
| So we basically all agree that trans fats are bad based on all of those data points. | ||
| Is that fair? | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So therefore, again, if you start any one study, someone can just claim that you're cherry-picking, right? | ||
| You can just say cherry-picking. | ||
| Everyone can say that. | ||
| I can say that you're cherry-picking, you can say that I'm cherry-picking. | ||
| Not necessarily, because there are meta-analyses and reviews that are built for this purpose to look at the totality of evidence. | ||
| So if you're in the film, for example, pointing to many meta-analyses that Fair enough. | ||
| I agree with that. | ||
| Okay, so basically, in philosophy, there's this, it's a logical fallacy called appeal to authority, right? | ||
| But in the real world, you know, you have to look at experts that are specialists in their field. | ||
| So if I, you know, I just got shoulder surgery not long ago, right? | ||
| So I went to a shoulder surgeon. | ||
| I didn't go to a dentist. | ||
| If I want to learn about comedy or, you know, fight announcers, I might come and talk to you, right? | ||
| If I want to learn about acupuncture or understand chi more, I might come to Chris because you've got a master's degree in traditional oriental medicine. | ||
| You're a licensed acupuncturist, right? | ||
| So if I want to learn about that, Chris is someone that I might want to go to. | ||
| So what I'm saying is the World Health Organization, the FAO, the American Heart Association, the 2015-2020 Dietary Guidelines, are all suggesting to eat predominantly plant-based diets, right? | ||
| And they're saying that vegetarian and vegan diets are helpful for all life stages, including for pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, adolescents, athletes, and so on. | ||
| That's the general consensus. | ||
| Can I just finish? | ||
|
unidentified
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Sure. | |
| And I've got a bunch of slides. | ||
| If you don't believe anything, I've got a bunch of slides showing the position papers for all of these. | ||
|
unidentified
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That's okay. | |
| Go ahead. | ||
| So we'll skip through that. | ||
| So you'd agree that those... | ||
| No, I wouldn't necessarily agree on the recommendations. | ||
| Okay, so can we go to slide one? | ||
| Those recommendations change over time. | ||
| No, they do change over time. | ||
| And I would also say that I'm on a predominantly plant-based diet. | ||
| Well, exactly. | ||
| So then what are we arguing about? | ||
| If you look at two-thirds of my plate is plants. | ||
| Well, this was my point. | ||
| Yeah, but no, you're being unfair. | ||
| That's really, really unfair because last time you pointed out that the totality of coverage of the plate is not reflective of the calories. | ||
| You said that on... | ||
| Yeah, but that has nothing to do with what he's saying. | ||
| He's not talking about calories. | ||
| He's talking about what is predominantly his diet. | ||
| It's mostly plants. | ||
| You've got to base it on calories. | ||
| You can't base it on the amount of food. | ||
| Why would we need to base it on calories? | ||
| If you're saying that your diet is predominantly plant-based, then either one, we're on the same page, right? | ||
| No, we're not. | ||
| Because the main question here, in my mind, is whether there is evidence that supports Being on a 100% plant-based diet with no animal products versus a diet that includes a lot of plant foods and some animal foods. | ||
| I thought you were critiquing the film which was talking about plant-based diets. | ||
| So plant-based diets means getting the vast majority of your calories from plants and limiting or excluding animal foods. | ||
| But the film, essentially, was all about only eating plants. | ||
| No. | ||
| Okay, so there was no recommendation whatsoever about eating animals. | ||
|
unidentified
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No, there's not. | |
| How animal products will kill you, dairy products will kill you, all kinds of different animal foods. | ||
|
unidentified
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Meat is like cigarettes. | |
| No, no, that claim was never made, see? | ||
| But there was a connection. | ||
| No, there was not. | ||
| There was an inferred connection. | ||
| No, there was not. | ||
| What was the connection to cigarettes then? | ||
| The connection to cigarettes was the way, the playbook that is being used by the... | ||
| See, that's people are conflating like what the hell... | ||
| The playbook is the same playbook that they use... | ||
| The playbook is the same way that they're using athletes and they're using advertising. | ||
| We never made the claim... | ||
| Explain that then. | ||
| Be clear. | ||
| So, the playbook that was used by the smoking industry, so they pay for studies, right? | ||
| And we know, even with food, this has been done with cigarettes, it's been done with drugs, it's been done with food, research shows that industry-funded studies are four to eight times more likely I've seen this in articles Saying, | ||
| you know, they connected meat. | ||
| We didn't do that. | ||
| Like, if you watch the film, we never said... | ||
| Well, what did you? | ||
| Why did you have that in there, though? | ||
| If you're not saying... | ||
| Because they're using the same playbook. | ||
| If you're not saying that meat causes cancer, you're saying... | ||
| Wait, wait, wait a sec. | ||
| They're using the same playbook. | ||
| There are some specific claims that chicken eating chicken and fish causes cancer, eating dairy causes cancer, there are quotes from doctors, vegan doctors in the film. | ||
| No, they're not vegan. | ||
| That's the other misrepresentation. | ||
| So, can I just go back? | ||
| Can we just finish the evaluating evidence and then get to each point? | ||
| Because I'm happy to do every critique. | ||
| So, basically, the consensus, and you're saying they're changing over time, they are changing, because as we get better at science, the recommendations are becoming more plant-based, despite industry influence from studies and marketing and people being paid off. | ||
| Industry influence goes both ways. | ||
| The sugar industry in the 60s was a big expose, pointing the finger at fat. | ||
| As the culprit. | ||
| I don't think fire is the culprit. | ||
| So that's a straw man argument. | ||
| No, but he's not saying you are saying that. | ||
| No, no, I'm saying the industry is... | ||
| I agree. | ||
| The sugar industry is terrible, and I would agree that... | ||
| But can I just... | ||
| Can we just finish the evaluating evidence? | ||
| But the thing about this section of the film was you were making some sort of a correlation between cigarettes and... | ||
| The way that it was marketed. | ||
| The way they're marketed, and then the way meat is marketed. | ||
| Correct. | ||
| It's the same company's exponent. | ||
| But you would never do that about carrots or kale or things that are predominantly healthy, right? | ||
| Because they didn't do it. | ||
| But if you're saying that you're connecting the two things, you're connecting something that clearly causes cancer, Cigarettes. | ||
| And these studies that were made to show people that it didn't. | ||
| They were paid off. | ||
| These studies were fake. | ||
| They were essentially cherry-picked fake studies that were financed by the tobacco industry in order to get people to buy more cigarettes. | ||
| You're making this same sort of claim about meat, which means you think that meat is bad for you. | ||
| I do. | ||
| No, we can disagree about that, but I'm almost finished with the evaluating evidence. | ||
| So basically, what we did when we interviewed the experts is we chose leading experts in their individual fields, collectively with thousands of articles in the peer-reviewed literature, right? | ||
| And this is one of the bummers about making a documentary. | ||
| You put the lower third on, people don't get to read it. | ||
| So we had the Chair of Nutrition at Harvard, the President of the American College of Cardiology, the Lead Delegate of Urology for the American Medical Association, the Chair of Anthropology at Harvard, the Director of Energy, Environment and Resources at Chatham House, really respected... | ||
| Talking about vegan doctors, I saw some of them involved in hunting, some of them involved in animal testing. | ||
| I saw one of them eating a chicken sandwich at lunch. | ||
| So let's not say that this was a vegan bias coming into it, because that's just not true. | ||
| We're stretching out here. | ||
| We were talking just about this one section where you're connecting cigarettes and meat. | ||
| So you're saying that the same playbook, but there's no evidence that meat is bad for you. | ||
| No, we can get into that, and I'm happy to. | ||
| But this is something that's actually recently been established by mainstream medicine. | ||
| You understand that, right? | ||
| That they've released new studies, releasing these new studies saying that there's no longer this concern that red meat causes cancer, or that even... | ||
| It's also an appeal to an authority, because I can find many illustrious doctors and experts who are highly qualified that will disagree with your point of view that a diet must be 100% plant-based in order to be healthy. | ||
| Can you clarify your position? | ||
| I want to know what we're actually debating here. | ||
| I do. | ||
| But this was the connection that you made with cigarettes in the film. | ||
| No. | ||
| I think they're both promoting something bad because there's a profit incentive. | ||
| So you think that meat is bad for you? | ||
| 100%. | ||
| You think that they're promoting it knowing that it's bad just for profit? | ||
| Okay, so all Chris has to do to debunk the film is convince the people watching and listening that he knows more about the consensus and the experts in their field I would understand if this is what you talked about. | ||
| No, I'm not interested. | ||
| I'm actually not that interested in consensus of experts. | ||
| I'm looking at the research that is published, the peer-reviewed research that is published, including meta-analyses and even reviews of meta-analyses that have been done. | ||
| A perfect example is the whole dairy and cancer section that we talked about, where you had... | ||
| Walter Willett argued that dairy products cause cancer, and I pointed to a meta-analysis that looked at over 150 different reviews, and 84% of those found no association. | ||
| So how is that not part of this discussion where we're talking about hundreds of scientists across different continents, different countries that are using peer-reviewed science to show this? | ||
| But in the movie, just one... | ||
| Expert is pointing to, you know, one group of studies without mentioning that. | ||
| That seems disingenuous. | ||
| That's a fair point, right? | ||
| So this is the 2018 meta-analysis. | ||
| Have you got a slide for that? | ||
| If not, I've got your slide. | ||
| 107. Slide 107. No, this is a 2019 meta-analysis. | ||
| 153 studies, right? | ||
| Yeah, and we can get a lot further into it, because that's not the only one. | ||
| I'd love to, because at 9 o'clock last night, until 9 o'clock last night, I thought Chris just made a bunch of mistakes interpreting the data, and I'm going to show you how he is misleading people on this study, okay? | ||
| So, if you can bring up slide 107, Jamie? | ||
| Can we see the slide? | ||
| Yeah, yeah, put it up. | ||
|
unidentified
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Okay. | |
| Is this it? | ||
| Okay, so you see what he's put in quotes? | ||
| Okay, 84% of meta-analyses on dairy consumption showed either no association or an inverse association between dairy and cancer. | ||
| And then you go on to point out what an inverse means is that people that ate more dairy get lower rates of cancer. | ||
| That's what he's implying. | ||
| When you put something in quotes, what does that mean to you? | ||
| It means that's what he said. | ||
| Yeah, but that quotation is quoting the study. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Fair enough? | ||
| Is that what they said in the study? | ||
| No, that's not what they said in the study. | ||
| That was my summary of the evidence of the study. | ||
| Right, thank you. | ||
| But when you put something in quotes, that's misleading. | ||
| But that's his quote. | ||
| Okay, fine. | ||
| Okay, let's go with that. | ||
| But he's not putting things in quotes saying that someone else said it. | ||
| Totally. | ||
| I mean, anything you do in literature, when you put something in quotation marks, you're quoting the study. | ||
| But let's just bypass that. | ||
| I'll agree. | ||
| Okay, so can you bring up slide 109 and see what they actually said? | ||
| Okay, this is the actual quote. | ||
|
unidentified
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Okay. | |
| Out of 153 reported meta-analyses comparing highest versus lower dairy consumption, 109, 71%, showed no evidence of a statistically significant association between dairy consumption and incidence of cancers. | ||
| 20 showed a decreased risk of cancers with dairy consumption, and 24 showed an increased risk of cancers with dairy consumption. | ||
| Now this is actually, until last night at like 9 o'clock, I realized what he was doing. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| If you want to go to, I mean, just to sum it up, if you go to slide 110. Wait, can we stay on here for a second? | ||
| What's your interpretation? | ||
| Do you agree that that was the quote from the study? | ||
|
unidentified
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Absolutely. | |
| Okay, good. | ||
| But I'm asking you what your interpretation, does that in your mind show a strong connection between dairy and cancer? | ||
| Okay, Joe, you're going to really realize here what Chris is doing. | ||
| Okay, this is really, and I'm glad that you brought it up. | ||
| Please answer what he's saying. | ||
| Okay, so can I just say, the reason you brought this up is because Walter Willett said there was a strong connection between prostate cancer and dairy, correct? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So you brought up something about all cancers. | ||
| And in this study, about half of the study showed a connection between prostate cancer and dairy and half didn't. | ||
| That's still not a compelling argument that dairy is associated with cancer. | ||
| You got a coin flip, basically. | ||
| That's not actually true. | ||
| I'll explain why that's not true. | ||
| You still haven't answered my question about this data here. | ||
| I will. | ||
| I'm trying to tell you. | ||
| I'm trying to tell you. | ||
| Slide 110. Well, let's stay with this. | ||
| Explain this first, and then we'll move to the next slide. | ||
| No, no. | ||
| Slide next 110 is explaining this. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| It's just breaking that down. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So there were statistically significant associations between dairy consumption and incidence of cancers. | ||
| 71% showed no evidence. | ||
| 13 showed a decreased risk, and 16% showed an increased risk. | ||
| So you see what Chris did to represent this? | ||
| He added 71 and 13 to make 84. Right? | ||
|
unidentified
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You follow? | |
| This is how you got it, right? | ||
| So you added 71% and 13% to get 84. So his statement from this study was, 84% showed no evidence or a decreased risk. | ||
| That's what he made you believe. | ||
| Well, 71% shows no evidence. | ||
| 13% shows decreased risk. | ||
| If you add the two of them together, that's 84% shows no evidence or a decreased risk. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| But what he could have said... | ||
| Is 71% plus 16%. | ||
| That's 87%. | ||
| He could have said 87% show no evidence or an increased risk. | ||
| It's 84. How are you getting 87? | ||
| No, 71 plus 16. Oh. | ||
| So I could make the claim. | ||
| No evidence or a decreased risk? | ||
| No, no. | ||
| We're getting really into semantics here. | ||
| No, we're not. | ||
| The burden of proof. | ||
| You were claiming in the film was claiming dairy causes cancer. | ||
| My claim was there's no, the bulk of the evidence suggests there is no association or inverse association. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| 70% shows no evidence. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| 13% shows decreased risk. | ||
| But hold on a second. | ||
| The decreased risk and the increased risk are almost the same. | ||
| Which is higher. | ||
| 3% shows increased risk on this one study. | ||
| The point of this study is that his study that he brought up showing this is very strong evidence. | ||
| His statement was very misleading. | ||
| He added up those two, and then he finished it up by saying, so basically there's an inverse correlation. | ||
| But he did not show, he could have said 87% showed no risk or an increased risk. | ||
| Instead, he chose to summarize it to saying 84%. | ||
| But no risk and an increased risk, it's a very different thing. | ||
| Because you're talking about something causing cancer. | ||
| No, exactly. | ||
| And so there wasn't strong enough things to find that total cancer was increased, right? | ||
| But we just... | ||
| We know that, as research shows, this included, did it not, industry-funded research? | ||
| Two-thirds of research is industry-funded, James. | ||
| Right, and we know that... | ||
| Yeah, and research shows that... | ||
| Are you proposing that we throw out every study? | ||
| Because one of the main studies in your film was sponsored by the Haas Avocado Board, the one that claims that animal products contribute to inflammation. | ||
| I'm not suggesting we throw them out. | ||
| I'm not suggesting we throw them out. | ||
| I'm saying that industry-funded studies... | ||
| And by the way, industry... | ||
| Funded studies, they typically only put them out when it shows in their favor. | ||
| There's no obligation for industry when they do a study to release it. | ||
| Yeah, I'm familiar with that. | ||
| I've written a lot about that myself. | ||
| So Joe, do you think that the industry and the meat and dairy industry has far more money than the plant-based industry, right? | ||
| You'd agree with that? | ||
| Actually, we can look at some statistics on that. | ||
| I don't know who's spending more money. | ||
| Would you disagree that industry-funded research has a four to eight times increased risk compared to non-industry-funded research in finding collusions in their favor? | ||
| I think industry research is definitely a problem, but I see it as a problem across the board, and I have some statistics we can talk about. | ||
| Do you not admit that you here led the audience to believe That there was a potentially decreased risk overall. | ||
| You made it sound very high because you didn't split between the no difference. | ||
| No, that was not my intention. | ||
| It was just to summarize the data, not to spend 10 minutes, as we're doing now, talking about one study. | ||
| Right, because you made a very misleading claim. | ||
| But no, it's misleading if you said it the other way. | ||
| My claim is completely accurate. | ||
| If you said showed no evidence or showed an increased risk, 84%, or 87%, that seems like it's misleading. | ||
| I don't think that would be misleading also. | ||
| I'm just saying he could have said that. | ||
| But we're talking about something causing cancer, James. | ||
| Exactly, so he shouldn't be making that claim. | ||
| But increased risk is what we're looking for. | ||
| What we're looking for is evidence of it causing cancer. | ||
| 71%, the bulk of the evidence shows no evidence. | ||
| That's exactly my point. | ||
| If you're claiming that something increases, then I'm saying here's all this research that doesn't show that. | ||
| You honestly don't think that that statement... | ||
| Instead of just putting that 71% showed no evidence, 13% showed... | ||
| So that would be the fairest, most honest summary of that statement. | ||
| I would say that if you wanted to say it the most accurately, yes. | ||
| That's the best way to say it. | ||
| That's what I'm saying. | ||
| 71% showed no evidence, 13% showed decreased risk, but I don't have a problem with saying 84% showed no evidence or a decreased risk. | ||
| It's true. | ||
| That's the relevant point. | ||
| That's the relevant point. | ||
| The relevant point is, does the study show that dairy causes cancer? | ||
| The primary evidence, most of the evidence says it shows no evidence or it shows a decreased risk. | ||
| That's the bulk of it. | ||
| That's 84%. | ||
| Versus 87%. | ||
| It doesn't. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| 87% shows increased risk is only 16%. | ||
| You're adding no evidence to increased risk to get 87%. | ||
| That's illogical. | ||
| Let's throw out the no evidence. | ||
| Let's throw that out. | ||
| Let's throw out no evidence. | ||
| Why would we throw that out? | ||
| The burden of proof is to show evidence that indicates that dairy causes cancer. | ||
| If you do a study and it shows that it doesn't, Then that's not in support of the claim that dairy causes cancer. | ||
| I'm agreeing that the meta-analysis could not find an association. | ||
| But I'm also pointing out that industry-funded studies were included in it, and they are more likely to find no connection. | ||
| Okay, so there's 153 studies. | ||
| You're claiming that all of them are industry-funded, and we should throw out this huge review of 153 meta-analyses because of industry funding? | ||
| What is the basis for that claim? | ||
| No, I'm saying that it sways the results. | ||
| You can't see that? | ||
| I don't accept it. | ||
| I have 153 studies that were in this meta-analysis that they're going to sway the results to the point where these findings aren't valid. | ||
| And we could do the same thing with all of the studies that you have done. | ||
| Link to in the film. | ||
| And we can also look at other studies on dairy and cardiometabolic outcomes. | ||
| I've got lots of large reviews that we can look at. | ||
| And again, anyone can bring up... | ||
| This is a pointless discussion to have if you're just going to sit there and say industry funding makes these results invalid. | ||
| That's not my only point. | ||
| You're saying it makes them suspect. | ||
| Correct. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yes. | |
| And it could have swayed it in the other direction. | ||
| It has in the past. | ||
| In that sense, I do agree with you about the cigarette thing. | ||
| How many of the 153 meta-analyses, which each also had individual studies in them, are so biased by industry funding that we can't count on the findings? | ||
| Well, I would hope that you would know more than I. We can't get very far in this discussion if you're going to claim that we can't even talk about studies in the peer-reviewed literature because industry funding completely biases the findings. | ||
| No, I'm not saying that's the case. | ||
| I'm saying just because they couldn't, even though there were more showing an increased risk than showed a decreased risk, right? | ||
| I am saying that it's possible that the industry funding... | ||
| That's a misleading statement. | ||
| More showed increase than decrease. | ||
| That's correct. | ||
| No, but there's 71% showed no change at all. | ||
| No, I agree with that. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| So that's a wash. | ||
| No, it's not a wash. | ||
| It's not even close to a wash, James. | ||
| No, it's not a wash. | ||
| If you have a hypothesis, this thing causes cancer, and then you do a ton of studies and there's no association, that hypothesis is no longer correct. | ||
| It's not a wash. | ||
| No, that's actually not true based on epidemiology. | ||
| If you have 10 studies that show no association and 10 that show an association, the net outcome is an association. | ||
|
unidentified
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But you don't have that. | |
| You don't have that at all here. | ||
| But I'm not, again, I'm not arguing. | ||
| What he said, you have 84% that show nothing or a decreased risk, which is the opposite. | ||
| You could say 84% showed no evidence and then, forget about decreased risk, just say 84% showed no evidence. | ||
| Forget about decreased risk. | ||
|
unidentified
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Right. | |
| You still have only 16% showed an increased risk. | ||
| When you do an epidemiology study, you have to take into account all the other factors in this person's lives. | ||
| You have to take into account whether they drink, whether they smoke, whether they exercise, sedentary lifestyle. | ||
| There's a lot of factors. | ||
| If you had something that was causing cancer, you would expect the results to be flipped. | ||
| You would expect the results to be 16% showed... | ||
| So it showed no evidence, 71% or 84% showed an increase. | ||
| That would be something you'd say, hey, this is causing cancer. | ||
| This is more likely. | ||
| That's not how epidemiology works, though. | ||
| Well, epidemiology is slippery. | ||
| No, I agree. | ||
| Wait, wait, wait. | ||
| How is that not how epidemiology works? | ||
| If you had 10 studies showing no evidence, just because you don't find something doesn't mean that it exists. | ||
| The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | ||
| Okay, but let's say this. | ||
| If you had 100 studies, and 70 of those studies showed an increased risk of cancer, wouldn't you say that thing causes cancer, most likely? | ||
| Well, if it was all epidemiology, then it's a question. | ||
| Wouldn't you say that, right? | ||
| Okay, so let's do 100 studies, and 70% now show no evidence. | ||
| Wouldn't you say it's most likely that there's no evidence? | ||
| No, that's not how it works. | ||
| Oh, how does it work? | ||
| So if you've got 70 studies that couldn't show a correlation, and 30% that did, that is still in favor of showing that there is a correlation. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| Now we're doing 70 studies. | ||
| 70% of the people in these studies, if you have all these studies, you have 100 studies, and 70% of the people in all these studies are showing an increased risk of cancer. | ||
| We would agree. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Well, you can't prove causation based on observational, but sure. | ||
| But you would agree there's most likely a connection. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Most likely, yeah. | |
| Right. | ||
| Now, if it's reversed. | ||
| Now, 70% of these studies show there's no increased risk of cancer. | ||
| Or 84%. | ||
| Or 84%, which is because you add in the decreased risk. | ||
| We're not even adding the decreased risk, which shows that you're less likely to get cancer, which is almost the same as an increased risk of cancer, which in my eyes is a wash. | ||
| You would assume that we're talking about something that doesn't give you cancer. | ||
| Well, I agree that this study found that they couldn't prove a causation, right? | ||
| They couldn't prove a link between cancer and... | ||
| But you made it out like he was being deceptive. | ||
| He is being deceptive. | ||
| I don't agree with that. | ||
| I don't agree with that because you're trying to show that these studies... | ||
| We are proving or at least making this correlation between consumption of dairy products and cancer. | ||
| But the evidence doesn't show that. | ||
| If you want to look at it in its entirety, the evidence shows that most of the 71% showed no evidence of it causing cancer. | ||
| 13% showed it's actually better for you. | ||
| You have less risk of cancer than not eating dairy. | ||
| And then 16% showed increased risk of cancer. | ||
| And again, when you're talking about epidemiology studies, when you're talking about, you know, 16 out of 100, you have to throw in all the other factors in these people's lives. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I agree. | |
| That's why they didn't find it. | ||
| But can I just, the reason you point this up is prostate cancer, right? | ||
| And so if you look at slide 113... | ||
| Prostate cancer, that's disturbing. | ||
| So it's 50-50. | ||
| With dairy consumption versus... | ||
| Wait, that's not... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sorry, 113. But a lot of people get prostate cancer too. | |
| Isn't that also an issue? | ||
| That's a high risk. | ||
| Isn't that a high risk for males? | ||
| Prostate cancer? | ||
| It's a high one. | ||
| Sorry, 112. Whether they consume milk or not. | ||
| So, in this meta-analysis that you point to, the highest connection that they could find between dairy and any type of cancer was prostate cancer. | ||
| So, if you look at the black line, that shows no association. | ||
| If you look at the green line, that's decreased association, and the red line was increased association. | ||
| That was the meta-analysis that you provided. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So you brought this study up because Dr. Walter Willett, who is the chair of nutrition at Harvard, he's one of the most published nutrition scientists of all time, if not the most published. | ||
| No disagreement there. | ||
| Right? | ||
| And so he is coming to the determination that prostate cancer is linked and it's likely that it's causal. | ||
| And this very study... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Whoa, whoa, whoa. | |
| Back up. | ||
| Half and half. | ||
| That's no evidence of a causal relationship, James. | ||
| There's no evidence of a causal relationship. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Dr. Walter Willett. | ||
| Let's talk about this study rather than appeal to authority. | ||
| You just said yourself that's a rhetorical fallacy. | ||
| No, it's... | ||
| It's a fallacy unless it's the appeal to valid authority. | ||
| Because literally, if I want to know about, are you saying like, so if I want, let's say we look at mixed martial arts, and Chris goes, well, I've never done mixed martial arts, but I think I know more about anthropology, nutrition, like, I know more about boxing, kickboxing, jiu-jitsu, and wrestling. | ||
| So we're talking about the consensus. | ||
| We're talking about leading experts in their field with thousands of peer-reviewed There is no consensus. | ||
| There are experts who are very illustrious who would disagree and would look at this study and reach the same exact conclusion that I did. | ||
| There's no reliable proven connection between dairy and prostate. | ||
| You have half studies showing an association, half studies showing no association, not to mention the fact that that's, as you just said, that even if there was A strong correlation. | ||
| That doesn't prove causation. | ||
| You said you like this because it included also randomized controlled trials. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And I'm saying, should we trust Walter Willett, who at the time was the chair of Nutrition at Harvest? | ||
| Let's trust the studies. | ||
| The studies is what we need to look at. | ||
| We're way off here. | ||
| The question was still, you know, there are a lot of inferences made in the film Whether they were intentional or not on your part, that dairy, people are hearing, oh, dairy is going to cause prostate cancer. | ||
| They're going to extend that to cancer. | ||
| There are other claims in the film made about dairy and metabolic issues and saturated fat and metabolic issues. | ||
| So, the operative question that I'm trying to answer is, do the data support that? | ||
| Not does Walter Willett think that, or any other expert in the film, do the data support that conclusion? | ||
| And even in that study, The data don't strongly support that. | ||
| If you have half studies saying yes, half studies saying no, that's not a clear signal, and it's definitely not evidence of a causal relationship. | ||
| So having Walter Willett or anyone say there's a strong relationship and we know the mechanism and it's causal, that happens. | ||
| Can I pause here? | ||
| Didn't you tell me that two-thirds of people have an intolerance towards milk and towards dairy? | ||
| And I have a study here. | ||
| Is that what the number is? | ||
| It's two out of three people in the world. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Because this is actually To your point. | ||
| So two out of three people have an intolerance towards dairy in the world. | ||
| And if you're talking about a study that shows 50% of the people in these studies that are consuming dairy, there's a correlation between prostate cancer and dairy. | ||
| Wouldn't you assume that maybe the same thing that we're talking about, where two-thirds of people are intolerant to something, they consume this thing that's intolerant, it causes inflammation in the body, and that inflammation in the body could possibly be leading to cancer? | ||
| Correct. | ||
| No, not correct. | ||
| Dairy is inversely associated with inflammation. | ||
| But if people are irritated by dairy, if they have an intolerance to dairy, and you said two-thirds of people. | ||
| Here's what I would suspect there, that if we segmented those people out and said, let's do a study, find out who's intolerant of dairy and find out who isn't, you would see even better results for dairy. | ||
| Because despite the fact that some people are lactose intolerant, we're still seeing in that meta-analysis that there's no association in most cases and an inverse association in other cases. | ||
| But this prostate cancer thing is not most. | ||
| This is 50-50, right? | ||
| I know. | ||
| 50-50 is disturbing. | ||
| So imagine what you're saying. | ||
| You're saying if dairy gives half people cancer and doesn't give the other half cancer, then I can just drink dairy. | ||
| Second of all, do you see what Chris just did? | ||
| That's not what that said. | ||
| These are epidemiology, James. | ||
| It's not dairy gives anyone cancer. | ||
| It's association. | ||
| No, that's not. | ||
| Your meta-analysis included randomized controlled trials. | ||
| This is actually to you. | ||
| Can I stop this, though? | ||
| If someone's intolerant of something, that means your body is irritated by it, means it causes some sort of disturbance, right? | ||
| Whether it's inflammation or gastrointestinal disorder, you start farting. | ||
| That's what happens when people are lactose intolerant, right? | ||
| That irritates the body. | ||
| Wouldn't you assume that something your body is intolerant to would possibly be the cause of disruption or disease? | ||
| Certainly could be. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But if you're looking at two-thirds of the population, But why would that cause prostate cancer and no other cancers? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| That doesn't make sense. | ||
| That's why when you see that kind of thing in the data, it's a red flag. | ||
| Because there's no logical explanation for why it would cause prostate cancer but no other cancers. | ||
| Can you start to think about why is there more of an association there with that? | ||
| Jamie, just Google dairy products and inflammation review of the clinical evidence. | ||
| This is a systematic review of 52 clinical trials and they found that dairy products were inversely associated with inflammatory markers, which means that people who consume dairy actually had lower levels of inflammatory markers. | ||
| So the hypothesis that dairy is inflammatory and that's why it's causing cancer doesn't seem to hold up. | ||
| So can I just say... | ||
| So first of all, there might be studies he can bring up. | ||
| I'm not even a nutrition scientist. | ||
| I'm like a combatives trainer, right? | ||
| And so you also said that you're not an expert in nutrition. | ||
| And so what we have to believe today is that Chris really is – it is about the meta-analyses, but it's about the meta-analyses. | ||
| It's about the totality of taking into account all the evidence, not just one meta-analysis or a meta-analysis of a meta-analyses, but all of the data. | ||
| And so what you're asking people to believe is that you are better at interpreting the data than people that are experts in their field. | ||
| There are many experts who would agree with me. | ||
| You just didn't choose to interview them in the film. | ||
| No, actually, we did interview some that I can tell you about in a second, on the other side, and I'll tell you why we didn't include them. | ||
| But you're asking people, I would understand it if suddenly Chris has figured out this NutriVore diet, that he figures out something about nutrition, that he knows more about the consensus and more about the majority of leading experts, But to believe that Chris knows more about anthropology, urology, heart disease, environment. | ||
| Why include anthropology? | ||
| Because you tried to debunk some of the anthropology in the film. | ||
| And successfully, because the majority of anthropologists agree with what I said. | ||
| You chose probably one of the few that would agree with the idea that humans primarily ate exclusively plant-based diet for most of human evolution. | ||
| We can go into that again. | ||
| I'm actually representing the consensus viewpoint in anthropology, James. | ||
| No, you're actually not. | ||
| You'd be hard-pressed to find a consensus group of experts that agree with that idea. | ||
| So you're saying that Richard Rang, the chair of anthropology that we interviewed, does not represent the scientific consensus of anthropology? | ||
| If you're arguing that he is saying that humans primarily ate plant-based diet and animal products were not a significant part of our diet through evolution, then yes, that's what I'm saying. | ||
| It depends. | ||
| We came from the equator, right? | ||
| I want to go back a second. | ||
| Are you arguing that there's a dominant consensus among nutrition experts in the U.S. that everyone should be on a vegan diet? | ||
| No. | ||
| So, what's the argument here? | ||
| That people should eat plants? | ||
| And my argument is, yes, they should. | ||
| And animal products can also be part of that Nutrivore healthy omnivorous diet. | ||
| And I think you would find a dominant consensus of nutrition experts that agree with that. | ||
| But that's not the way this film is being interpreted. | ||
| Right, because there was a bias going into it. | ||
| So, for example, when you go to the US military, right, the Game Changers is the first documentary that has ever been accredited by the Defense Health Agency for the Department of Defense. | ||
| It's the first documentary that has ever been supported by the Special Operations Medical Association. | ||
| They didn't come into it looking at the science. | ||
| This has been evaluated by hundreds of PhD researchers to come to that conclusion, okay? | ||
| Wait a minute, how so? | ||
| They've been evaluated how so? | ||
| You can't get an accreditation. | ||
| Your film is being evaluated by... | ||
| The Defense Health Agency of the Department of Defense, which decides what the military is eating, they don't give a crap about, oh, let's base our diets on evolution. | ||
| They care on what is the science. | ||
| And Game Changers is the first documentary that's ever been accredited by the Defense Health Agency. | ||
| They didn't look at this and go, okay, this is a vegan propaganda film. | ||
| Why are you saying that hundreds of PhDs have reviewed this and reviewed all the data in it to come to this conclusion? | ||
| And is this proven? | ||
| Is this printed? | ||
| Is this some published paper where it shows that hundreds of people have reviewed this film and found all the claims to be credible and that all the debunkings of it are not? | ||
| The Defense Health Agency has reviewed this film In detail, digging into each of the studies... | ||
| Right, but you're saying, again, called to authority, you're saying hundreds of PhDs have studied this. | ||
| Who are these people? | ||
| Well, there's a lot from the Defense Health Agency. | ||
| There's a lot of people at the Special Operations and Medical Association that came to the decision, and these are master's degrees in nutrition, PhDs in nutrition, to get that accreditation. | ||
| That just hasn't happened before. | ||
| Because they didn't come into it thinking, this is a vegan propaganda film. | ||
| That was the bias going into it. | ||
| We're, again, talking a lot about experts and their opinions. | ||
| Experts, right. | ||
| Experts and their opinions and not Chris Kresser and his opinion. | ||
| It's not. | ||
| That's a misrepresentation, James. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, we're talking about studies. | |
| No, this is not about my opinion. | ||
| And we can fill the room with experts who agree with me. | ||
| You had a debate with a doctor in the UK on a TV show who disagreed with you. | ||
| We can always find people who agree and disagree with all kinds of different credentials. | ||
| It's disingenuous to claim, like I said, that I'm not here to argue that plants are unhealthy and that we shouldn't be eating a lot of plants. | ||
| This is the fallacy that gets created with these kinds of films. | ||
| It's not a choice between a standard American crappy processed food diet that contains meat or a vegan diet. | ||
| There is a possibility of a plant-based diet, a diet that has a lot of plants that also contains animal products, and comparing that with a 100% plant-based diet, that is the operative question here. | ||
| I believe that meat and dairy are bad for you. | ||
| The film talked about plant-based diet. | ||
| Why do you believe that? | ||
| I think there's sufficient evidence. | ||
| Yeah, well, let's talk about that. | ||
| Because that's what we already started talking about. | ||
| If you look at our website, and people want to know the resources on what to eat, we say it's all or something. | ||
| It doesn't have to be all or nothing. | ||
| So we were talking about... | ||
| Okay, but that's nice. | ||
| But what you just said, you think that meat is bad for you. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Meat and dairy and, you know... | ||
| Well, I can see the argument if we're talking about two-thirds of people being lactose intolerant. | ||
| I would see the argument that for two-thirds of people, dairy is probably not good for you. | ||
| The research doesn't support that, though. | ||
| But if you're saying, what is lactose intolerant? | ||
| If you're intolerant of something, that means your body's not enjoying it. | ||
| And that's not the only issue, by the way. | ||
| That's not the only issue with milk. | ||
| But let's just concentrate on that, because that's a giant number. | ||
| Two-thirds of people are lactose intolerant. | ||
| Your body's intolerant of something, but you keep consuming that thing that your body's intolerant of. | ||
| I would naturally assume, as an absolute admitted non-expert, that that's not good. | ||
| So, two things here. | ||
| Number one, I've always, for years, have written that dairy is very individual and depends on your tolerance. | ||
| Number two, there are a lot of dairy products with virtually no lactose in them. | ||
| So, cheese, for example, hard cheeses, no lactose, you know. | ||
| Cream, very little lactose. | ||
| Butter, no lactose. | ||
| Ghee, no lactose. | ||
| Yogurt, fermented dairy products like kefir, no lactose. | ||
| So while I agree with what you're saying, if someone is lactose intolerant, they should avoid dairy products that contain lactose. | ||
| When you look at the studies on dairy and connections with conditions like cancer, inflammation, which I just pointed out with this study, And you look at cardiometabolic outcomes, which I'd like to cover because that includes heart disease and diabetes and overweight, obesity, etc. | ||
| There is not any strong evidence that dairy contributes to those conditions. | ||
| So let's look at those actual studies. | ||
| Chris, you talk really badly against epidemiology, saying it can't prove causation. | ||
| And then when you like it, you cite it. | ||
| So you'll give epidemiological evidence... | ||
| It's the same way with you, James. | ||
| I mean, you can't have it both ways. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Exactly. | |
| You can't have it both ways either. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| The burden of proof, if you're claiming that something is bad for you, the burden of proof is on you. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| So you can't say it's bad for you, and then I show epidemiological studies and RCTs, by the way, that were included in that meta-analysis that don't support that, and then you say, oh, we can't trust the research. | ||
| I'm pointing out your hypocrisy is saying that you said that epidemiology, that's observational studies, just looking at people. | ||
| You have said that we can't rely on those, and then you then cite them yourself. | ||
| I didn't say we can't rely on epidemiology. | ||
| I say you have to consider the caveats with epidemiology. | ||
| But again, the burden of proof, if you're claiming that a food is bad for you, the burden of proof is on you to show research that it is. | ||
| So for example, first of all, there's inflammatory mediators, for example, like heme iron. | ||
| Second of all, we look at population data and we show increased causes of morbidity and mortality. | ||
| For people that eat less meat. | ||
| Or that eat no meat. | ||
| Increased causes of morbidity. | ||
| You just said it the wrong way. | ||
| Decreased risk of morbidity and mortality. | ||
| Let's just be real clear on that because you said it wrong. | ||
| Let's look at two randomized controlled trials. | ||
| See, these are not observational studies. | ||
| The first found that increasing red meat consumption by replacing carbohydrates in the diet of individuals without anemia actually reduced markers of inflammation. | ||
| Sorry, replacing what, sorry? | ||
| Carbohydrates? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| That's what you said, sorry. | ||
| So, Jamie, if you want to pull this, I mean, these are all on the website, cressor.co slash gamechangers, but that study is called Increased Lean Red Meat Intake Does Not Elevate Markers of Oxidative Stress and Inflammation in Humans. | ||
| I believe the study exists. | ||
| So these are RCTs, randomized. | ||
| So they're actually controlling it. | ||
| Instead of just looking at observational data, which is subject to healthy user bias, these are two RCTs. | ||
| So that's one study. | ||
| And then there's another RCT in women with anemia inflammation markers on a diet high in red meat or not significantly different from those on a diet high in oily fish. | ||
| And then there are also numerous studies of paleo diets which contain meat and other types of animal protein and show that they decrease markers of inflammation including CRP. There's randomized controlled trials showing reductions in interleukin-6 and also in tumor necrosis factor alpha. | ||
| In these diets. | ||
| So all of this suggests it's not the meat, it's what you eat with the meat that makes the difference. | ||
| We have studies of chlorophyll, eating chlorophyll-rich green vegetables decreases the formation of N-nitroso compounds with meat. | ||
| We have lots of studies showing that when you eat plants along with the meat, then you don't see the effects that you might see if you're just eating... | ||
| A crap standard American diet. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I agree. | |
| So if an animal food creates oxidative stress, you have it with the plant foods, and that would have the antioxidants, and that would offset it. | ||
| Is that basically? | ||
| It's a little more complicated than that. | ||
| Yeah, I think it is more complicated than that. | ||
| But that's one mechanism. | ||
| As I said last time, and as I've always argued, I'm not a proponent of the carnivore diet. | ||
| I'm not a low-carb guy. | ||
| I'm not a keto guy. | ||
| My fundamental argument is just that the optimal human diet contains both plant and animal foods. | ||
| And this focus on individual food components or macronutrients like protein or fat or carbohydrate, we've gotten too much... | ||
| It's called nutritionism. | ||
| It's just focusing on these individual elements and ignoring the overall pattern of diet quality, which is the most important thing. | ||
| And that's what a lot of the more recent studies are showing. | ||
| When you look at the diet pattern and diet quality on its... | ||
| Overall, that's what actually makes a difference in terms of health and lifespan, not how much of this fat, how much of that fat, whether there's red meat or white meat or fish or whatever. | ||
| It's the pattern. | ||
| Let me pause here because this is one of the primary misconceptions that people have about consuming meat. | ||
| When they hear studies that say that meat is associated with mortality or high cholesterol or heart disease or all these different factors, We are talking about these kinds of studies where people fill out a form, tell us what you eat. | ||
| How many days a week do you eat meat? | ||
| How many days a week do you eat this? | ||
| What they don't take into account is whether or not these people are going to Wendy's, whether or not they're eating a grass fed steak and broccoli. | ||
| Something healthy. | ||
| There's a giant difference between those two things, but they're lumped in together because this is meat consumption. | ||
| Yeah, the studies aren't perfect for sure. | ||
| But you were saying that basically you're saying we should look at outcomes and not just look at individual markers, right? | ||
| Is that basically... | ||
| No, I'm saying we should look at the diet quality, the overall diet pattern. | ||
| So, for example, Christopher Gardner did a study at Stanford a couple years ago, and he took, instead of saying, you know, low-fat, low-carb, he took two groups and he advised them all to basically eat a healthy diet. | ||
| And then one group ate a low-fat, healthy diet, and the other group ate a low-carb, healthy diet. | ||
| They all lost weight. | ||
| But there wasn't that big of a difference between the two. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I agree. | |
| I agree. | ||
| So first of all, in terms of health, my opinion would be I'm pretty much macronutrient agnostic. | ||
| So I'm not advocating high-carb or low-carb. | ||
| I think that people can do healthy and well. | ||
| I think for athletes, they need a lot more carbs, which, of course, is getting those from plants. | ||
| I think there are certain athletes that can, if it's a slow and steady state where you're getting more fat oxidation, I think that, you know, stone steady state athletes can do, but like an MMA fighter, a soccer player, a basketball player, more carbs. | ||
| We all agree on that. | ||
| But you just said that you were not low carb, right? | ||
| You said you're not low carb. | ||
| I'm not. | ||
| I'm not a low carb advocate. | ||
| I've written articles called Seven Reasons You Should Be Cautious. | ||
| I'm not saying I'm not a low carb advocate. | ||
| I don't believe everyone should be on a low carb diet. | ||
| I've never believed that. | ||
| But the thing is, Chris doesn't have the consensus definitions of carbohydrate levels. | ||
| You've made up your own definitions, right? | ||
| When did I make up my own definitions? | ||
| Slide 80. Jamie, if you could do that, please. | ||
| Let's just point out that Zach Bitter, the man who I had on the podcast yesterday, who holds the world record in running 100 miles in 11 hours, and I think it's 18 minutes, he's on a low-carbohydrate diet. | ||
| Yeah, and again, in a slow and steady state, you can certainly do well. | ||
| So, Chris, your definition of low-carb is 10 to 15%. | ||
| If you can go to the next slide, Jamie, 81%. | ||
| So if you look at the peer-reviewed literature, it's either less than 30% or, in the next slide, Jamie, less than 40%. | ||
| Like, if you look across all the literature, it's less than 30% or 40%. | ||
| Moderate carb, according to Chris, next slide, Jamie, would be 15% to 30%. | ||
| Peer-reviewed literature, next slide, 40% to 65%. | ||
| And then high carb, Chris calls, more than 30%. | ||
| And the peer-reviewed literature, high carb, more than 65%. | ||
| And the next slide, more than 70%, depending on the peer-reviewed literature. | ||
| So, you've come up with your own definitions of what is low, moderate, and high carb. | ||
| Yeah, just for the purpose of my work with people. | ||
| I wasn't trying to represent research there. | ||
| That's what I consider to be... | ||
| Low-carb, moderate-carb, and high-carb in my work with patients and in my recommendations. | ||
| Joe, did you not just hear him say... | ||
| He did, I mean, that is what you said. | ||
| I mean, when you wrote this out, you did have a different definition than the peer-reviewed literature. | ||
| So you go slide 88. You do, by his definition, have your own idea of what high-carb and low-carb is. | ||
| And he said no. | ||
| You heard him say no. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And so slide 88, please, Jamie. | ||
| So I just want to sum this up. | ||
| But what's the point here? | ||
| Because I've never said that everyone should be on a low-carb diet. | ||
| No, I agree. | ||
| And I've always argued that it depends on everything from your genes to your exercise, pattern, activity. | ||
| But Chris, where are you getting your numbers from? | ||
| Like when you write low-carb, moderate-carb, and high-carb? | ||
| He made them up. | ||
| This is a clinical recommendation from my experience working with patients. | ||
| I'm not representing the scientific literature here. | ||
| I'm not trying to make arguments about what's safe or not safe. | ||
| We're talking about nutrition. | ||
| That's madness. | ||
| That's absolute madness to come up with your own definitions. | ||
| And this is what I feel that Chris does. | ||
| And when you have people like Chris on multiple times, it throws people's perception off as what is a healthy diet because Chris misrepresents the data. | ||
| He comes up with his own definitions of things. | ||
| He misrepresents things that we said in the film. | ||
| What did I misrepresent in the film? | ||
| Hold on. | ||
| We're going to get into the woods. | ||
| We're going to get into the woods here. | ||
| Let's just talk about this real quick. | ||
| So when we're talking about low carb, moderate carb, or high carb, when you're recommending to your patients low carb, moderate carb, or high carb, these definitions, how are you coming to these conclusions? | ||
| Just made them up. | ||
| No, based on... | ||
| So there are a lot of people, James, that disagree with the ranges... | ||
| The scientific consensus. | ||
| Yeah, there are. | ||
| But when you say scientific consensus, how many different scientists were... | ||
| We're polled on this. | ||
| How many different studies were shown? | ||
| Well, I don't know. | ||
| Just consider... | ||
| But is this something that... | ||
| But hold on a second. | ||
| Is this something that you just found that disputes his position? | ||
| Or is this like a large group of people? | ||
|
unidentified
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No, this is... | |
| Okay, so slide 89. Well, consider Virta Health, who uses... | ||
| You know the folks at Virta, who are all scientists, MDs. | ||
| They use a ketogenic, very low-carb diet to... | ||
| To address diabetes. | ||
| You will not be in ketosis at 30% carbohydrate, or 25%, or 20%, or even 15%. | ||
|
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It's going to be 7%, probably less than 10%. | |
| And then 40% to 65%, You're not even in the ballpark. | ||
| So if you're thinking about using low carbohydrate diets, for example, for weight loss or for diabetes or metabolic issues like Virta Health is doing, then low carb is not going to be 30% to 40%. | ||
| That's not going to work. | ||
| So that's where my recommendations are coming from. | ||
| Your recommendation is based on ketosis? | ||
| Based on the optimal range, if you look at the rest of the article, it's going to be like, if you've got diabetes, you're overweight, you're obese, you're trying to lose weight, this is the range that I've found and other experts like the people at Virta Health have found will be most effective. | ||
| And these are the ranges? | ||
| There's no representation that this is the range that is defined as low-carb in the scientific literature. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So you're calling it low-carb because if someone's on a ketogenic, low-carb diet, in order to get into ketosis, you have to have a low number of carbohydrates. | ||
| It's actually probably even below 10%. | ||
| And not even just to be in ketosis, like just to get the maximal weight loss. | ||
| You know, someone could be at 15% and still get great weight loss without being in ketosis. | ||
| I've got to interrupt because just like in the last five minutes, you showed a study from trying to prove your own point That low-carb and low-fat people had equivalent fat loss. | ||
| You just said that. | ||
| So why are you now all of a sudden advocating only low-carb diets for losing body fat? | ||
| I'm not advocating only low-carb diets. | ||
| I said that they can both work for different people in different situations. | ||
| But James, you're misrepresenting what he was saying. | ||
| What he was saying is getting people to go on a healthy diet versus the standard American diet. | ||
| So he's not just talking about low carb versus high carb. | ||
| What he's talking about is getting off bullshit like processed foods and sugar and eating healthy. | ||
| I totally agree with that. | ||
| And when you do that, people, no matter what, low carb or high carb, lose weight. | ||
| But I think you will agree, as well as almost anybody would, that getting on a low carbohydrate diet and forcing your body into ketosis makes your body burn fat. | ||
| It's one way, yeah, sure. | ||
| But it's proven, right? | ||
| The other piece of this is most of the studies aren't comparing a healthy omnivorous diet with a plant-based vegan diet. | ||
| They're comparing a vegan diet with a standard American diet that contains animal products. | ||
| What we're talking about is not a fair comparison. | ||
| Same with the paleo diet or its neutrovore diet. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Which, by the way, has any of your work or your ideas been published in the scientific literature? | ||
|
unidentified
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No. | |
| I've never claimed that it has. | ||
| I just wondered. | ||
| You didn't wonder. | ||
| No, I did wonder. | ||
| I couldn't find anything. | ||
| But that's not why you were saying that. | ||
| You were saying that to try to make it seem that he's less of an expert. | ||
| Well, he is. | ||
| I'm not an expert either. | ||
| So what's the point? | ||
| Why are you here? | ||
| Why am I here? | ||
| Well, actually I did ask if I could bring my chief science advisor who has a double master's degree in exercise physiology and nutrition. | ||
| He's a registered dietitian. | ||
| I've read all of his papers and we can talk about them. | ||
| Yeah, totally. | ||
| But I think we should... | ||
| So first of all, we just... | ||
| We still haven't come to this understanding of why you think meat is bad for you. | ||
| You were basing it... | ||
| Well, okay, so there's the individual components like heme iron, for example. | ||
| We talked about that last time. | ||
| The heme iron is only associated with poor outcomes in the U.S. That's actually not true. | ||
| It's not in other countries. | ||
| That's not true. | ||
| Let's let him and then we can refute it. | ||
| That's not true. | ||
| You can refute it. | ||
| In the FAANG meta-analysis, which looks at most of the studies that have been done on that, and then if you also consider that when you add... | ||
| Green vegetables and other plant foods, spices, and all of that, it reduces the oxidative capacity of heme iron and reduces the absorption of heme iron. | ||
| And, you know, again, we're talking about diet pattern, not just are you eating red meat in McDonald's and fast food restaurants, but are you eating it in the context of an overall healthy diet, and does that have the same effect? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Do you know how to read a forest plot? | ||
| Yes or no? | ||
| I don't. | ||
| What does that mean? | ||
| That's basically looking at the competent intervals. | ||
| What's it called, a forest plot? | ||
| Forest plot. | ||
| Plot, okay. | ||
| Yeah, because it kind of looks like a bunch of trees, right? | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So, you don't know how to read a forest plot. | ||
| So, have you actually looked at the study that you referenced? | ||
| I have looked at the study. | ||
| Okay, so, you don't know how to read it, so it's kind of... | ||
| So, get a microphone on you, James. | ||
| Just pull that sucker over. | ||
| So, you see the... | ||
| First of all, he said that what he put up on the screen, I don't know if you've still got the slide, but you said that the heme-iron association was only in Americans, right? | ||
| But the conclusion of that study said that heme-iron was associated with cardiovascular disease. | ||
| That was the conclusion of the study which he didn't put up on the screen. | ||
| The quote I put up was, with respect to heme iron intake, we found a significant association only in the studies that were based on American cohorts. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So there's two things about that. | ||
| That was from the study. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| First thing, I can't link to my slide. | ||
| I don't know where it is. | ||
| But basically, can you just read the conclusion of that study? | ||
| Because I can't find my slide. | ||
| The conclusion is down here. | ||
| Higher dietary intake of heme iron is associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular disease, whereas no association was found between cardiovascular disease and non-heme iron intake or total iron intake. | ||
| And then I just read the quote just now. | ||
| Which was incorrect, by the way. | ||
| The authors made a mistake. | ||
| How did they make a mistake? | ||
| So if you look at this forest plot, for example, this Kipstein-Grohbush, And you can go and look at the, I've looked at the individual studies that they were referencing in the meta-analysis, as has my scientific team. | ||
| So basically you see this, this is a 1.86. | ||
| With the composite interval being 1.14 to 3.09. | ||
| That is statistically significant connection between heme and iron. | ||
| And you can look at the conclusions in three of the photos. | ||
| But you're saying that what he said about eating it with green leafy vegetables reduces the oxidation effects? | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| But we have to point out that I don't think this one... | ||
| You don't think that's true? | ||
| First of all, unlike the dairy one where I think that he was being a bit misleading... | ||
| In this case, I don't think he was being misleading. | ||
| I think that you read... | ||
| There was no misleading. | ||
| It was summarizing. | ||
| We already went over this. | ||
| Yeah, I don't think he was being misleading in the dairy. | ||
| You would like to create that impression, but there was no misleading. | ||
| That's just my opinion. | ||
| I think you were being a bit misleading. | ||
| In this case, I do not think he was being misleading at all. | ||
| It did say what you said in the study, even though you didn't point out the conclusion. | ||
| You left out the conclusion of the study. | ||
| But what... | ||
| Wasn't your fault. | ||
| I think you read the study, but you admitted that you don't know how to read forest plots. | ||
| And the forest plots, if you did look at them and you knew how to read them, you'd show that there were three in the Netherlands and in Sweden that did show a significant correlation. | ||
| Because what you were trying to make out with this point, which I understand when you have a point of view and you're trying to work it backwards, what you end up doing is you try and find studies that suit your position. | ||
| And so... | ||
| You went and found the study, and you found a quote, even though you didn't like to put the conclusion of the study. | ||
| No, I did acknowledge that there was an association, but it was based on American cohorts, which was in there. | ||
| Yeah, but it's not. | ||
| And it's not your fault, because the people, whoever wrote the write-up for the study, made a mistake. | ||
| They were statistically significant, because 1.14 to 3 means that there was like a 14% to 300% increase in that one study of... | ||
| I think we're good to go. | ||
| Yes, it has been associated. | ||
| And we still have the studies that eating fruits and vegetables attenuate the oxidative capacity from heme iron, reduce absorption of iron in the gut. | ||
| And now we're focusing on a single mechanism rather than looking at the outcomes. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Again, I'm happy to look at the outcomes. | ||
| Do you agree with what he just said? | ||
| I do. | ||
| I think that plant foods offset the oxidation, offset in some regard the oxidation that you get from animal foods. | ||
| However, if you work out You have oxidative stress, okay? | ||
| So if you want to have a meal, do you want the plant foods in the meal to be dealing with the oxidative stress from the animal foods, or do you want the plants to deal with the oxidative stress, allow you to recover faster, and your next workout will be better? | ||
| I don't think we know that's true. | ||
| No, we do know that's true. | ||
|
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How do we know that's true? | |
| This is nutritionism because we're not focusing on the nutrients in red meat and the highly bioavailable protein. | ||
| It's not like red meat is only there to cause oxidative stress. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| It's not the only thing. | ||
| There are some nutrients in meat. | ||
| So again, the question is, is there a place for animal foods in a diet that is healthy overall? | ||
| Not whether you should eat plant foods. | ||
| Right. | ||
| We both agree that you should probably eat a lot of plant foods, right? | ||
| Which is my position. | ||
| I think it would be difficult for me to argue 100% plants versus 50% plants. | ||
| I don't think it's argued to argue like 90-95% plants versus... | ||
| I think the argument would take hours and hours and hours to convince you why I think 100% plants is better. | ||
| I think there's definitely bio-variability. | ||
| And I think different people have different requirements. | ||
| Can we just go back a second? | ||
| I want to make sure I understood what you just said. | ||
| Can you repeat that? | ||
| So my position is that the literature... | ||
| I think it's an easier argument because we're talking about plant-based diets and plant-based diets would be either limiting or eliminating animal products, right? | ||
| So for plant-based diets in general, right? | ||
| So vegan, maybe some vegetarian, like if you eat turkey on Thanksgiving and then you eat fish once a month, I would say that's a plant-based diet. | ||
| You're getting the vast majority of your calories from plants, right? | ||
| I think most people, even if you're eating pasta, you're getting the vast majority of your calories from plants. | ||
| Well, yeah, but if we're talking about what's the healthiest diet... | ||
| But that's the problem, right? | ||
| I think whole plant foods, right? | ||
| But a lot of shitty American diet is plant-based. | ||
| You're talking about buns and bread and all the bullshit and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. | ||
| That's all plant-based. | ||
| And a lot of vegans and vegetarians, just because you're vegan or vegetarian doesn't mean you're healthy. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Right? | ||
| My argument would be that you're getting the vast majority of your calories from whole plant foods. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Agreed. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| You agree? | ||
| Well, I don't think the vast majority is my position, but I think that's his position. | ||
| I agree with what he's saying. | ||
| Look, I eat animal products. | ||
| I have for a long time. | ||
| And I eat a lot of vegetables as well. | ||
| I think that... | ||
| An omnivorous diet is the key to health. | ||
| That's what I believe. | ||
| I believe that meat helps you recover faster. | ||
| I think it's more nutrient-rich. | ||
| I think there's things in meat that it's very difficult to get in plants. | ||
| And I think the quality of the amino acids and the quality of the protein content in meat is superior to that in plants. | ||
| Definitely we should get into the protein. | ||
| Let's talk about that because that's one of the things you brought up. | ||
| Can I just say that I agree with the type of meat that you eat. | ||
| We know that there's not studies done on the inflammation in elk, but there is studies on inflammation in kangaroos, for example, in Australia. | ||
| So totally wild caught. | ||
| So that's like their equivalent of elk, right? | ||
| And there is about half the inflammation coming from that as there is from beef. | ||
| Well, I would imagine. | ||
| I mean, you're talking about a much healthier, much higher protein. | ||
| The difference between the protein content in elk per ounce versus the protein content in beef is almost double. | ||
| It's a giant difference. | ||
| And we just had the randomized controlled trials I showed that showed less inflammation with eating red meat. | ||
| No, yeah, but the thing is, it's tricky, because when it's something healthy or something inflammatory, it's always compared to what? | ||
| So in some of these studies, what the industry does is they'll compare red meat to bacon, or they'll switch it up. | ||
| It works the other way around. | ||
| They compare a plant-based diet with a standard crop Western diet. | ||
| No, I agree. | ||
| That's not a good comparison. | ||
| But I still don't see why you're saying meat is bad for you. | ||
| I mean, we just showed with the heme iron. | ||
| But the heme iron, in conjunction with plant-based foods, is showing. | ||
| And he said it's because of the quote that you gave. | ||
| One of the primary reasons is because of oxidation. | ||
| Antioxidants deal with oxidation. | ||
| You get pro-oxidation from animal foods. | ||
| You also get pro-oxidation from exercise. | ||
| We're talking about, you know, isolated mechanisms instead of outcomes. | ||
| But Chris, you talk about mechanisms when you want to, and you talk about preclinical data when you want to. | ||
| I was talking about them in response to the claims made in the film, because mechanisms were mentioned. | ||
| New 5GC, TMAO, heme iron, and so I brought those up to respond to them. | ||
| No, but that's not when you use them, because if you go on your website, you actually... | ||
| I'm not saying we shouldn't ever talk about mechanisms, James. | ||
| I'm saying if you're talking about mechanisms but the outcomes don't support The mechanism, then what's the point? | ||
| Well, I think we can get into epidemiology and look at that, but I think we should definitely hit protein, because I think if everyone watching, that's the biggest myth, and it's the biggest sort of gripe, and I think we should definitely hit B12. Let's go with B12, because one of the things that you said that he disputed was, bring up that B12 quote that you said was complete horseshit. | ||
| I can read it out if you want. | ||
| Go ahead, please. | ||
| B12, is this, if you disagree with what you were critiquing. | ||
| B12 isn't made, I'll read the whole thing and then. | ||
| So B12 isn't made by animals. | ||
| It's made by bacteria that these animals consume in the soil and water. | ||
| Just like with protein, animals are only the middlemen. | ||
| Before industrial farming, Farm animals and humans could get B12 by eating traces of dirt on plant foods or by drinking water from rivers or streams. | ||
| But now, because pesticides, antibiotics and chlorine kill the bacteria that produce this vitamin, even farm animals have to be given B12 supplements. | ||
| And you said, that's just all false, that's all just factually wrong. | ||
| So, first of all, B12 is made by bacteria, but animals don't get it from consuming soil and water. | ||
| First of all, you misrepresented what I said. | ||
| So I said, it's made by bacteria that these animals consume. | ||
| You went on to say, That animals didn't get bacteria from the soil. | ||
| That's not what I said. | ||
| I said they get it from the bacteria that they got from the soil. | ||
| So you misrepresented what I said. | ||
| The key claims you made, James, is that it used to be possible to get B12 by eating dirt on plant foods or from drinking water from rivers or streams. | ||
| I still have not seen convincing evidence that that is true. | ||
| And Jack Norris, a vegan dietician, has admitted as much in his article. | ||
| And then even more relevant than all of that is looking at B12 deficiency rates between vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores in the clinical literature. | ||
| Like, the other stuff... | ||
| It's not really relevant until you get to the clinical effect. | ||
| Can I address each of your critiques then? | ||
| Is that okay? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So, first of all, you said there's zero evidence that B12 is fed to cattle, right? | ||
| You said that. | ||
| And so, can I just, first, because I said even farm animals, can you put up slide 44, please, Jamie? | ||
| I said even farm animals have to be given B12 supplements. | ||
| That's what I said. | ||
| So did you mean all farm animals? | ||
| Okay, so do you see that? | ||
| That is a screen cap from the film. | ||
| That's a chicken. | ||
| And down at the bottom, there's the quote for the poultry, right? | ||
| So would you disagree that pigs and chickens and other farms... | ||
| No, I don't disagree that they sometimes get B12, but what about shellfish? | ||
| Shellfish are extremely high in B12. They're the highest, even higher than… That's a total non sequitur and it's a strong algorithm. | ||
| It's not actually because the implication in the film was the only reason you get B12 from eating animal products is because they're given B12 supplements. | ||
| Are you really suggesting that the population gets most of its B12 from shellfish? | ||
| No. | ||
| I'm saying that the claim that animals need to take B12 supplements in order to have B12 in their flesh is not accurate. | ||
| Where do you think chickens get it from? | ||
| James. | ||
| Where do you think chickens get their B12 from? | ||
| The point about the shellfish was, I never claimed chicken was a great source of B12. I said in the film, even farm animals have to be given B12. You said that it was absolutely false. | ||
| Everything that I said about B12, you said was absolutely false. | ||
| Those are your words. | ||
| Well, this is also you talking about that people used to be able to get it from consuming vegetables with bacteria and dirt on it. | ||
| And that the water is now because of pesticides and chlorine, the water no longer has B12 in it. | ||
| And then you claim that the same percentage of, you picked one study that showed equal rates of deficiency and ignored the huge amount of literature that shows big differences between vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores in terms of B12 deficiency. | ||
| I know all of your critiques because I've noted them and I've got a point for each one. | ||
| So can I just go? | ||
| And then you can, if you disagree, you can. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| So, could you just, Jamie, could you put up slide 45? | ||
| And rather than throwing off track going to about humans, we'll get to that in a second. | ||
| But that, I mean, B12 is just commonly fed to chickens, and you would agree with that, right? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And pigs and lambs, that can't, like, ruminants can create B12 in their gut from the bacteria that they eat. | ||
|
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Yeah. | |
| Okay. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But you brought up cattle... | ||
| And bivalves and other... | ||
| Yeah, no, certainly. | ||
| There's some. | ||
| Yeah, but that's not... | ||
| Yeah, totally. | ||
| Okay, so since you brought up cattle, you said that cattle... | ||
| there's no evidence of cattle being fed B12. | ||
| So if you bring up flight 46. | ||
| Vitamin B12 for sheep and cattle, that's what it says. | ||
| You said there's no evidence. | ||
| So, you said there's no evidence. | ||
| So, on the left, just because people might not be able to read the small print. | ||
| Well, listen, there's people just listening as well. | ||
| Okay, sorry, for people just listening. | ||
| There's a B12 injection for sheep and cattle. | ||
| There's three different products. | ||
| There's something that's added to feed on the left. | ||
| So, it says a liquid complementary feeding stuff containing the essential trace elements cobalt, selenium, For the treatment of B12 deficiencies, that's due to some soils being low in cobalt. | ||
| So now, if you just go to slide 47. This is the largest supplier of animal feed or supplements in the world. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| On their website. | ||
| Young ruminants require supplemental vitamin B12 prior to full rumen development. | ||
| They also say vitamin treatments sometimes administer parenterally to incoming feedlot cattle. | ||
| And also B12, by the way, has been shown to increase milk production. | ||
| You said there was no evidence that cattle are given B12 and you said that all my statements were absolutely false. | ||
| Do you at least admit that you were wrong there? | ||
| If I said that cattle, specifically that one portion of the statement, that there's no evidence that cattle ever get B12 supplements, then I was wrong about that. | ||
| Go ahead, read what he says. | ||
| Okay, first of all, when I made the full statement, this is what you first said, that's just all false, that's all just factually wrong, and then later on you said... | ||
| There's also zero evidence that B12 is fed to cattle. | ||
| That is flat out wrong, and I have just shown that. | ||
| Is that fair? | ||
| Yeah, I was wrong about that. | ||
| Okay, so we'll get to another point because you were wrong about many other things as well. | ||
| Okay, so let's see. | ||
| So you agree that, you know, it is fed to cattle, so you want to look at humans. | ||
| I'm just trying to see if there's any other points that you brought up. | ||
| They've been giving minerals and feed and different things to cattle forever, particularly because of the grain diets. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What is the point? | |
| The point, if cattle are deficient because they're in a feedlot where they're not eating grass. | ||
| It's not only that. | ||
| And that's the primary reason. | ||
| It isn't only that? | ||
| Or because soils have become defeated. | ||
| So young cows, young cows. | ||
| Right, but these are young cows that are most likely being a feedlot. | ||
| And people have been getting meat, B12, from animals. | ||
| Do you dispute that... | ||
| The primary source of B12 for human beings has been eating animals and also fish and shellfish. | ||
| In history? | ||
| And from rivers and streams and dirt? | ||
| Both? | ||
| Wait, where is the evidence that rivers and streams and dirt has been a primary source of B12? I'm obviously going to give it to you. | ||
| Do you think I came here today? | ||
| Do you think I made claims in the film that I couldn't back up? | ||
| Perhaps. | ||
| There are actually quite a few claims. | ||
| We went over those in the last show. | ||
| Yeah, so can we stick with the B12? Sure. | ||
| Okay, so can we just go to slide 48? | ||
| Hold on a second, please. | ||
| B12 concentration fluctuated between 100 and 2,000. | ||
| So this is in levels of water in the English Lake District. | ||
| If you want to go to slide 49... | ||
| The vegetables were eaten without being carefully washed, thus strict vegetarians who do not practice hand washing or vegetable cleaning may be untroubled by vitamin B12 of deficiency. | ||
| And by the way, the retained vitamin D12 for soil was adequate to prevent B12 deficiency. | ||
| So what you're essentially saying is that we're dealing with B12 that was in soil and then in water and that by the chlorination and filtration systems that we use today, that's what's ruining the water and the water does not have the B12 in it anymore. | ||
| We sanitize water now, which is a good thing. | ||
| Yes, but that also takes out the B12. So that makes your statement correct. | ||
| So he was wrong again. | ||
| That's not the consensus view, that you can get enough B12 from eating unwashed vegetables. | ||
| He didn't necessarily say that was the consensus view. | ||
| What he said in the statement was that the reason why we no longer have B12 in the water and in the soil is because of the fact that they add chlorines and pesticides, and it seems like there's evidence to back that up. | ||
| So again, people have questioned, did I spend a thousand hours? | ||
| Now that I'm giving you the facts, Do you question that I spent a thousand hours and I've spent another two thousand hours looking at peer-reviewed research since then? | ||
| If you say you have, I have no reason to disbelieve. | ||
| It's a lot of time. | ||
| It's a lot. | ||
| A thousand hours is a lot of time. | ||
| Like, what was it? | ||
| Lane Norton said that you should probably have gotten a PhD. | ||
| Well, I don't think that's the case. | ||
| I think there's people a lot smarter than me that are making these scientific tests. | ||
| But I mean, that amount of hours of research. | ||
| I've estimated that I've done, conservative estimate, I've done since then about 3,000 hours because once I started making the film and doing that, then I didn't. | ||
| Anyway. | ||
| I believe you. | ||
| There are also B12 analogs in the soil that aren't absorbed and utilized like true B12. Can we admit the two things that you touched on so far, you got wrong. | ||
| Absolutely that it's proven that cattle do receive B12 under whatever circumstances. | ||
| I don't know whether it's because they're grass-fed or grain-fed. | ||
| I'm assuming they're feedlot animals that don't get proper nutrients from soil, don't get proper nutrients. | ||
| I mean, if you're getting these grain-fed, soybean-fed cattle and they're just pouring this dried-out shit into a bucket, these animals are not grazing and they're likely deficient in a lot of different things. | ||
| And that's why... | ||
| There's also, they've always been supplementing their diet with minerals, supplementing their diet with vitamins. | ||
| Right, and that's the funny thing. | ||
| People are like, oh, well, let's just take the extreme end of a plant-based diet, vegans, right? | ||
| So people say, oh, well, vegans have to take a supplement. | ||
| Well, guess what? | ||
| You're supplementing anyway. | ||
| You're just doing it indirectly. | ||
| If you are eating that kind of animal. | ||
| 99% of the beef, for example. | ||
| Yes, somewhere around there. | ||
| 97 to 99. Yeah, whatever. | ||
| So the vast majority. | ||
| So... | ||
| People are getting it. | ||
| You're supplementing. | ||
| You're not just supplementing by B12, you're supplementing D. You're getting it from someone who supplements it in the feed of the animal, and then you get it that way. | ||
| Generally, not if you're eating grass-fed beef, not if you're eating shellfish, not if you're eating fish. | ||
| Grass-fed beef, again, is 1-3%. | ||
| But let's just admit that you made a mistake. | ||
| Can you just admit that you made a mistake there? | ||
| About B12. Both of those things. | ||
| B12 in cattle and then you have a third point. | ||
| So we had the B12 in cattle. | ||
| You said there was zero evidence about that. | ||
| You said there was no evidence about being able to get it from water and from dirt, which again, I proved you to be wrong. | ||
| And the third thing that you said... | ||
| I said that there's no evidence that humans primarily got their B12 from eating from soil and water, which is what you said in the quote. | ||
|
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No, no. | |
| That's actually not what you said. | ||
| No, I didn't. | ||
| Again, he's misrepresenting and he's wrong, Joe. | ||
| You've got to admit that in this case. | ||
| Well, he's clearly wrong about B12 being given to cattle. | ||
| I mean, we showed three different supplements. | ||
| So it says, before industrial farming, farm animals and humans could get B12 by eating traces of dirt on plant foods or by drinking water from rivers or streams. | ||
| So you don't think that people will get the idea from hearing that? | ||
| That we never needed to consume animal products to get B12. We didn't need to consume. | ||
| We could get plenty from eating soil. | ||
|
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Correct. | |
| So where is the evidence for that other than the one study that you showed there? | ||
| That's because most evidence of vegans, even vegans who are supplementing... | ||
| These are modern vegans, right? | ||
| He's talking about something... | ||
|
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But you see what? | |
| He's going off on a track here because he's got two things wrong. | ||
| I agree with you on this, because his statement is essentially saying that the reason why we don't get it today is because of chlorination and fluoridation of water. | ||
| We sanitize and we pesticize. | ||
| So your third point, I said this, you took issue with my claim. | ||
| And up to 39% of people tested, including meat eaters, are low in B12. As a result, the best way for humans to get enough B12, whether they eat animal foods or not, is simply take a supplement. | ||
| Then you said he didn't provide a reference for that, so it's hard to check. | ||
| But again, it contradicts, you know, mounds of evidence on B12 efficiency. | ||
| So, can you bring up slide 50, please, Jamie? | ||
| You said that I didn't provide a reference, okay? | ||
| But in the bottom left, where we put all of the references, and whenever I made a claim about the scientific research... | ||
| Oh, well, it's covered by the... | ||
| It'll go away in a second. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Okay. | ||
|
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Allegedly. | |
| There you go. | ||
| So, first of all, there's the reference. | ||
| You claim you didn't have a reference. | ||
| Would you admit that you were wrong? | ||
| Yeah, I missed that. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Three times wrong about B12. Okay. | ||
| So, can we just go into your study? | ||
| Sorry, your ebook on B12. You basically said, I don't know where you got that study from. | ||
| Your B12 ebook opens with the exact same study. | ||
| So, can you put up slide 51? | ||
| Please, Jamie? | ||
| Okay, is that your e-book on the left? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| You rounded up to 40, but I kept it at 39, okay, because I was being specific. | ||
| B12 deficiency is far more common than most healthcare practitioners and the general public realize. | ||
| Data from the Tufts University Framingham Offspring Study suggests that 40% of people between the ages of 26 and 83 have plasma B12 levels in the low normal range, a range at which many experience neurological symptoms. | ||
| That was the opening statement of your B12 ebook, and you claimed that you couldn't find the evidence of that study. | ||
| No disagreement that B12 deficiency is an issue. | ||
| I've talked about that on my website. | ||
| That's not what you said on the last time you were on Joe's podcast. | ||
| You said, I don't know, he didn't provide a reference for that, so it's hard to check, but it contradicts the evidence. | ||
| If that's not reflective of the preponderance of evidence, why did you open your ebook with it? | ||
| It's not... | ||
| Okay, so there's two different issues here. | ||
| One is, do omnivores get B12 deficiency? | ||
| Right, do they? | ||
| Yes, they do. | ||
| Okay, and 40% of people test it. | ||
| In this study... | ||
| Which is the one that you referenced. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| And there are many... | ||
| I'm not saying the study is bad. | ||
| I'm just saying, let's look at all of the other... | ||
| You said that I didn't provide a reference, but do you write your own e-books, by the way? | ||
| I do. | ||
| And you don't remember that study? | ||
| No. | ||
| I write a lot. | ||
| James, do you have any idea how many articles I've written over the years? | ||
| Do you remember every study from every article? | ||
| I don't know if you write. | ||
| No, I don't, because I'm a combatives trainer, and that's the thing. | ||
| Do you not feel like, I'm a combatives trainer, you yourself recognize that you're not a nutrition expert, right? | ||
| You said that at the beginning. | ||
| I'm not a nutritionist. | ||
| I have master's level training in nutrition. | ||
| So you've got a number of things wrong about B12. What does that specifically mean, like master's level training in nutrition? | ||
|
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|
Right. | |
| Thank you, Joe. | ||
| Well, in California, acupuncturists have a four-year master's program, which includes a lot of medical sciences and nutrition research methodology, etc., because we're considered primary care providers in the state of California. | ||
| So the training is a lot different than it is in other places. | ||
| So... | ||
| There's the question of can omnivores develop B12 deficiency? | ||
| Yes, they can. | ||
| If you go and look at the rest of the e-book, it's because of things like SIBO, bacterial overgrowth, and small intestine. | ||
| You'll actually accept higher ranges of what would be considered potentially deficient, right? | ||
| You'll say like three, four hundred might be deficient. | ||
| So that would mean that even more people were deficient, right? | ||
| Now I'm not arguing that vegans can be more deficient than omnivores, but can I just go to slide 52? | ||
| Can I go to slide 52? | ||
| So what is the question here if you're not arguing that B12 deficiency is more common in vegans and vegetarians? | ||
| Because that is what clinically makes the difference. | ||
| If someone is B12 deficient, then they develop. | ||
| You think I'm not prepared to get to that? | ||
| I will get to that. | ||
| You said that the four or five claims that I made about B12 were patently false. | ||
| I've already pointed out three of the things that you got wrong out of the five. | ||
| And you are the one that, like, is recommending and telling people what to eat. | ||
| I am a combatives trainer, and my facts in this case are the facts. | ||
| This doesn't change anything about the facts. | ||
| I'm recommending... | ||
| No, it does, because it's really dangerous. | ||
| ...is still that people get enough B12, and that they are less likely to do that on a vegetarian and vegan diet. | ||
| And there's lots of studies showing that. | ||
| Can an omnivore develop B12 deficiency? | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| I see it in my practice. | ||
| Not the vast majority. | ||
| No, no. | ||
| I didn't say that. | ||
| The vast majority of that 40% were meat eaters. | ||
| You didn't reference the study, by the way. | ||
| That's only because there are more meat eaters in the general population. | ||
|
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No, I agree. | |
| That has nothing to do with the fact that meat eaters are getting more B12 deficient. | ||
| I'm not arguing that. | ||
| We've got all of these studies about homocysteine, 9 out of 10 reviews that have shown higher homocysteine levels in vegans and vegetarians. | ||
| Joe, can we stick to the point that he made last time? | ||
| I'll never get to ribbutt. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So, when you referenced the Framingham study, you didn't link to the study, you linked to an article from the USDA about the study. | ||
| And that study said, oddly, The researchers found no... | ||
| Again, this is the opening statement of your e-book, references this study. | ||
| But you didn't mention this part. | ||
| Oddly, the researchers found no association between plasma B12 levels and meat, poultry, and fish intake, even though those foods supply the bulk of B12 in the diet. | ||
| It's not because people aren't eating enough meat to get their B12, Tucker said, it's the vitamin isn't getting absorbed. | ||
| So... | ||
| So, this backs up my claim that the safest way to get B12 is to take a supplement. | ||
| Now, Chris will just say, for $60... | ||
| Can I just finish on this point? | ||
| And then you can rebut as much as you want. | ||
| So, your claim was, well, people can just go and get... | ||
| So, you agree that... | ||
| No, I would say that vegans that don't supplement and omnivores, there's a lot more deficiency in vegans, right? | ||
| Like, it's a nutrient of concern that vegans should be cautious of. | ||
| I agree with that. | ||
| That's pretty much universally recognized. | ||
| Okay, that's accepted, right? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| But even if you don't accept the 40% number, even though you said that... | ||
| I didn't say I didn't accept that. | ||
| Okay, but it doesn't matter whether you accept it or not. | ||
| You've even said that we should consider higher levels B12 division, so it would make even more. | ||
| But that doesn't really matter. | ||
| The point is that you were saying that... | ||
| Where was I going with this? | ||
| Hang on. | ||
| They're saying the vitamin's not getting absorbed and that B12... My point was it's safer to just take a B12 supplement. | ||
| And for the general population in the world, that is the best recommendation. | ||
| You'll say you can go to your doctors and get a $60 blood test and test for B12, and then you can decide whether you need a supplement or not. | ||
| May I stop you guys both here? | ||
| Why isn't it getting absorbed? | ||
| If there is a higher level of vitamin B12 in fish... | ||
| There's other factors that inhibit the absorption. | ||
| So what are those factors? | ||
| CBO is one likely... | ||
| Yeah, people's conditions, but also in the food itself. | ||
| Bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine. | ||
| So, Joe, so basically... | ||
| But we still have the data here... | ||
| Can I just go back to the argument about... | ||
| Because I said the best, safest way for everyone to get B12 is to take a supplement. | ||
| You say you can just spend $60 and get a blood test. | ||
| But you've got to recognize that in the world, not everybody can afford $60. | ||
| Okay, so the safest way to get B12, whether you eat meat or not, is to take a B12 supplement. | ||
| It's the surest way. | ||
| Let's just all agree on that. | ||
| It's the surest way. | ||
| It's the surest way, for sure. | ||
| But then you've got studies that show 11% of omnivores have B12 depletion versus 77% of vegetarians and 92% of vegans. | ||
| You know, that's with using holotranscobalamin, which is a much more sensitive marker of B12 deficiency than serum B12, which is really problematic. | ||
| And then you have 9 out of 10 comparisons of homocysteine that found higher levels of homocysteine in vegetarians and omnivores and higher levels in vegans compared to vegetarians. | ||
| And homocysteine is also a more sensitive marker than serum B12. So there's four stages of B12 deficiency. | ||
| And serum B12 will only go down out of range in the fourth and final stage of B12 deficiency. | ||
| So these other studies that I shared on the last show are looking at holotranscobalamin, which was the most sensitive marker of B12 depletion. | ||
| It's not technically deficiency at that point. | ||
| And then you have homocysteine and methylmalonic acid that are less sensitive than holotranscobalamin, but more sensitive than serum B12. Okay. | ||
| Okay, can you bring up slide 54, please? | ||
| Okay, and I need to show you. | ||
| So, not only have you got all the facts wrong so far about B12 of my claims. | ||
| You said that they were all false, and they weren't false. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Every claim that I made so far was backed up by science. | ||
| And you have admitted that you made mistakes. | ||
| Okay, so this is your slide. | ||
| This is your slide, right? | ||
| This is... | ||
| Because this is how I can show that he's handpicking these studies to make his claim. | ||
| You said that 92% of vegans We're deficient in... | ||
| Let's read what it says. | ||
| B12 depletion among omnivores, vegetarians, and vegans. | ||
| We've got to remember that most people are probably listening versus watching. | ||
| Oh, sorry. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So vegans, 92%. | ||
| It says 77. Vegetarians, 77%. | ||
| And omnivores, 11% for B12 depletion. | ||
| But that study showed it was more like 40% of depletion even amongst omnivores, right? | ||
| I'm not trying to compare the two. | ||
| I'm just trying to say your case by using this study is that 92% of vegans are deficient in B12 and omnivores are not deficient. | ||
| Depleted. | ||
| Depleted. | ||
| Whatever. | ||
| I'm not trying to pick apart this study. | ||
| I agree with the study. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Can you just go to the next slide, please, Chris? | ||
| I think it's slide 55. Okay. | ||
| This is from the study. | ||
| This is from 16 years ago, by the way. | ||
| And a very small study from 16 years ago. | ||
| And this is why I show you that he's handpicking the data that he uses. | ||
| And this is where I go back to the fact that it's about the interpretation of the totality of evidence. | ||
| And you can't really rely on someone that's not a nutrition expert handpicking studies to suit their bias. | ||
| So this is what it said. | ||
| In subjects who did not consume vitamins... | ||
| The levels were what Chris said, right? | ||
| 11% in omnivores, 70% in... | ||
| So I would agree, like, if you couldn't get B12 anywhere, you should incorporate some animal foods into your diet. | ||
| Fair. | ||
| Okay, but let's look at some other studies. | ||
| So slide 56. And again, I'm only choosing a few. | ||
| I'm sure, you know, certainly they're in my favor. | ||
| And I'm not saying that vegans don't have lower B12 levels, because some people don't supplement, right? | ||
| But I'm showing that you hand-picked a study from 16 years ago. | ||
| Slide 56. This is a new study from 2018 with twice the sample size of the ones. | ||
| People now know you should take a B12 supplement. | ||
| The studied markers indicate a generally sufficient cobalamin status independently of the diet preferences, lacto-over-vegetarian or vegan. | ||
| Slide 57. Now this is a study that looked at runners in May of 2019, really current. | ||
| And it feels like you might not have the most current data because you said to me in your email that nutrition is only one part of what you do and you have lots of other things that you're doing, right? | ||
| So, slide 57. This is comparing vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores. | ||
| And these are runners? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Recreational runners. | ||
| Recreational runners, yeah. | ||
| All three groups showed an adequate biomarker status of B12-related parameters. | ||
| And then slide 58, it would be. | ||
| And this one not only backs up my point about vegans and plant-based eaters, but also that supplement users are better. | ||
| So the vitamin B12 status of supplement users of vegans and omnivores was higher compared to the non-supplement users. | ||
| And a higher proportion of non-supplement users had B12 parameters outside the reference range. | ||
| They were low. | ||
| So... | ||
| Again, that's more evidence that people... | ||
| It's a good idea to supplement in general because you just have higher levels. | ||
| And consensus recommendations after you get over 50, you have lower intrinsic... | ||
| It's a water-soluble vitamin anyway, right? | ||
| Yeah, but after 50, you lose intrinsic factors, so you can't absorb as much. | ||
| Right, but it's not dangerous to have higher levels. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| It's a good thing to supplement, period. | ||
|
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Right. | |
| And the blanket recommendation. | ||
| So every single thing that I said in the B12 statement is true and backed up Jamie, bring up slide 59 for me. | ||
| If we're looking at totality of evidence, let's look at more evidence. | ||
| Totally. | ||
| But again, I'm not pointing those three studies out to say there's not more. | ||
| I'm saying that you handpicked a study where vegans were not... | ||
| No, I didn't handpick a study, James. | ||
| There's many studies here. | ||
| No, you picked one where they were not taking vitamins. | ||
| And I agree. | ||
| So we agree that people on plant-based diets... | ||
| Should take vitamin B12. I see what you're saying. | ||
| And we agree that most people are getting their B12 supplement in any way just indirectly through animals. | ||
| Fair enough? | ||
| Fair enough if you follow the diet that these animals were on. | ||
| Which is the majority of people. | ||
| And again, I would say, look, if you want to eat 95% plants... | ||
| Do we know how common it is for them to supplement animal diet with B12? Is it a rare thing? | ||
| No, no. | ||
| Due to metabolic condition? | ||
| With cattle, it's lower because there's a lot of... | ||
| It's not that rare. | ||
| It's lower, but it's not super rare because a lot of soil is deficient in cobalt. | ||
| And cows need to consume the cobalt to manufacture the B12 in their rumen. | ||
| So it's more of a side effect of mineral and nutrient deficient soils for cows. | ||
| But not for pigs and chickens and that sort of stuff. | ||
| Vegans have higher homocysteine levels than omnivores, 9 out of 10 comparisons found. | ||
| Higher homocysteine levels in vegetarians than omnivores and higher levels in vegans than vegetarians. | ||
| The prevalence of hyperhomocystinemia among vegetarians may actually be higher than that among non-vegetarians already diagnosed with heart disease. | ||
| So that's 9 of 10 comparisons. | ||
| That's not hand-picking one study. | ||
| That's 9 out of 10 comparisons that have been done on this topic. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And like you said before, we shouldn't just look at the markers, we should look at the outcomes, right? | ||
| And the outcomes is that vegans and vegetarians with higher homocysteine levels do not have increased risk of cardiovascular disease or diabetes or death from those or from cancer. | ||
| I didn't make the claim that they do from that study. | ||
| We're talking about B12 and homocysteine being a marker of B12 deficiency. | ||
| And Chris, I am showing that you picked a study from 2016, which had a very small sample size. | ||
| That was 9 out of 10 comparisons right there. | ||
| That was not the only study that I showed. | ||
| I am saying that when you came to B12, all of the statements that I made in the film were true, and you said that they were patently false and you were wrong. | ||
| I didn't. | ||
| Joe, come on. | ||
| I've come in here. | ||
| I've said it already. | ||
| You're correct. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Because I've come in here and people are saying, oh, what are you going to say to that debunk? | ||
| Chris did not debunk the film. | ||
| He made misrepresentations of our claims and he got things factually wrong. | ||
| Well, he certainly seems to have gotten it factually wrong that animals, particularly cows, are not given B12 supplements. | ||
| He certainly seems to have gotten it factually wrong that at least some of the B12 that people would be able to get in the past, they got from water and soil. | ||
| And that 40% of people are in Division B12, and that the best way to get B12 is the supplement. | ||
| So, he got everything. | ||
| Can I just finish? | ||
| Can I just finish? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| I know, but you're wrong. | ||
| So, the thing is, I have proven that he got three or four things factually wrong. | ||
| About B12. Right. | ||
| And I am a combatives instructor. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| I've heard that. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But I'm just saying, I'm putting myself down. | ||
| Yes, I understand. | ||
| I'm not, like, a super intelligent guy. | ||
| Well, you are. | ||
| You are very intelligent. | ||
| I've said that before. | ||
| What you did is you did research on these very important subjects and you acquired a lot of data. | ||
| But this is what people do when they go to school. | ||
| I mean, it's like the difference between someone who's educated and not educated is not whether or not they go to a specific place. | ||
| No, totally. | ||
| It's whether or not they absorb the information and when they study. | ||
| If you said you studied a thousand hours before the film and three thousand since, then you're obviously educated. | ||
| You understand what you're talking about. | ||
| So anyway, you got things factually wrong about B12. So to the people listening or watching, do you really want to put the interpretation of the data in the hands of someone that just got so many things wrong about B12? Well, he got things wrong about your assertions about B12. Yeah, I made four or five claims that still stand that vegetarians and vegans have much higher rates of B12 depletion or deficiency than omnivores. | ||
| If they're supplementing, they do not. | ||
| If they're supplementing, they don't, but if they don't supplement, they do. | ||
| Right, but everyone agrees, but there's no disagreement. | ||
| Vegans and vegetarians, and anyone over 50, and you're now disputing the safest way to get B12 is to take a supplement. | ||
| It's the best way to get B12. It's the surest way to get B12, but it's not necessary for many people. | ||
| Right, for people that can afford to get blood tests, which is not most of the world. | ||
| We're sitting in America in a nice air-conditioned room, and we've got cars, and we drove here, and we can afford to go to the doctor. | ||
| Like, the best way to get B12 is to take a supplement. | ||
| Period. | ||
| And you're wrong if you think otherwise. | ||
| If you can afford... | ||
| Yeah, sure. | ||
| If you can afford blood tests every six months... | ||
| We're gonna get B12 supplements to everybody around the world, too? | ||
| But hold on. | ||
| That's expensive, right? | ||
| Here's the thing. | ||
| If you have a diet that gives you the ample amount of B12... Then you don't need a supplement. | ||
| Then you don't need a supplement. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| What you're saying is that blood tests are expensive, so you should take an expensive supplement? | ||
| No, they're not expensive. | ||
| V12? No, it's like, if you buy it in bulk, it's like $2 a year. | ||
| But, no, I'm not saying that. | ||
|
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|
A year? | |
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| If you buy it in bulk. | ||
| $2 a year? | ||
| Where the fuck are you buying your vitamins? | ||
|
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If you buy it in bulk, you probably want to... | |
| Really? | ||
| Yeah, you've got to... | ||
| But the trick is you'd have to split it with a bunch of people because it's like a year's worth of supply. | ||
| But anyway... | ||
| Jesus Christ. | ||
| So... | ||
| So, no, the argument is that... | ||
| I feel like I should just donate to the world. | ||
| If it's only two bucks a year, I feel like I can hook a lot of people up. | ||
| I've also shown that in the study that you presented in your e-book, stated that they weren't absorbing it as well from animal products. | ||
| I'm not saying there's not B12 in animal products. | ||
| And also, we have to remember one last thing, that the B12 that people are getting in animal products, it was supplemented in the first place. | ||
| In some cases. | ||
| In the vast Not in wild-caught fish, not in grass-fed, not in shellfish. | ||
| Not as much in ruminants. | ||
| In the vast majority of animal products that people are eating, B12 is supplemented. | ||
| And so I'm just saying, the safest way to get B12 is to take a supplement. | ||
| In the vast majority? | ||
| Is that true? | ||
| Yeah, you think the vast majority of people are eating wild-caught fish? | ||
| Yeah, but I don't know. | ||
| I don't know how many animals are actually getting those supplements. | ||
| All of the chickens are omnivores. | ||
| They're not fed omnivorous diets for the most part unless they're free-range chickens. | ||
| Have you ever seen a chicken fuck up a mouse? | ||
| It's pretty stunning. | ||
| Yeah, they're carnivorous little monsters. | ||
| Then chickens, and when you get them, and you get those eggs, and the eggs are like a really dull yellow, those are animals that are eating grain only. | ||
| Those are vegetarian chickens. | ||
| That's not what they want to eat. | ||
| What they want to eat is worms and bugs and rodents. | ||
| Yeah, they're not living in their natural state. | ||
| Right. | ||
| In their natural state, they probably don't need to have supplementation. | ||
| This is sort of an argument against vegetarian diets for chickens, really. | ||
| Because chickens aren't really supposed to eat that way. | ||
| And feedlot for beef. | ||
| Feedlot for beef, exactly. | ||
| They're not supposed to eat grain either. | ||
| Can we get to protein? | ||
| Because I think if we miss protein, then we've done people a disservice. | ||
| No, we're not going to miss it. | ||
| We have plenty of time. | ||
| Cool. | ||
| I'll keep going all day. | ||
| So with the B12, you made some excellent points, and you definitely... | ||
| Cleared up what was misrepresented by what you said. | ||
| And it's really why I really appreciate you having me on because you guys did like a three-hour debunk, right? | ||
| And there was just a lot of things that were factually wrong. | ||
| And there's more that I can point out that were factually wrong. | ||
| So I just really appreciate you having me on. | ||
| My pleasure. | ||
| I appreciate you being here. | ||
| And I really appreciate Chris. | ||
| As much as we disagree, I really appreciate you coming on and giving me the opportunity and you being here. | ||
| I know I'm getting like, It's your film. | ||
| You made a movie. | ||
| I get it. | ||
| Cool. | ||
| So, you want to talk about protein and what the issues are? | ||
| There's still also just the red meat and dairy thing. | ||
| Outstanding, too. | ||
| Oh, whether or not red meat's bad for you? | ||
| Yeah, we never really cleared that up. | ||
| But why do you think that red meat's bad for you? | ||
| We can go with protein. | ||
| But let's finish that. | ||
| Because we really should finish that. | ||
| We can always move into protein because I'm sure protein's going to be a long... | ||
| Well, I know the thing that's going to happen here, so we can talk about red meat. | ||
| I've shown that some of the individual things, like heme iron, for example, are shown to be pro-inflammatory. | ||
| And by the way, just to back you up... | ||
| Is pro-inflammatory necessarily correlated with poor health? | ||
| Because sometimes things that provide inflammation, your body has a positive reaction to it. | ||
| Yeah, it's a hormetic stressor. | ||
| So there are things like exercise, you exercise, you create hormesis, right? | ||
| Right, sure. | ||
| Sauna. | ||
| And it's the same thing where he'll sort of try and show that fish, you know, the TMAO, for example, you'll say, well, how can TMAO be bad? | ||
| We'll get to that. | ||
| We'll get to that. | ||
| But let's stick with red meat. | ||
| Why do you think red meat's bad for you? | ||
| Well, TMAO is one of the things in red meat, just like heme iron that I just showed as inflammatory. | ||
| Heme iron is associated with cardiovascular risks, and that heme iron is found in meat. | ||
| And eating plants in a healthy diet pattern. | ||
| It offsets it. | ||
| Absolutely, yeah. | ||
| Is there evidence that eating meat by itself is associated with cardiovascular disease? | ||
| Nobody ever has eaten meat by itself. | ||
| What about these carnivore diet people? | ||
| Well, there's no research on the carnivore. | ||
| Those guys are the canaries in the coal mine, aren't they? | ||
| There's no research on that. | ||
| So that's one of my people just eating all meat diet. | ||
|
unidentified
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Okay. | |
| Yeah, there's not, yeah, I mean, we both agree, like, let's just create a false dichotomy, Chris. | ||
| If there was a, like, all animal products diet, not just carnivore, but eggs and all this stuff, and then there was a fully plant-based diet, subliminary would be 12. Which one would you advocate? | ||
| False dichotomy? | ||
| I'd probably pick the plant diet. | ||
| Probably? | ||
| Although I would be concerned about nutrient deficiencies. | ||
| Yeah, I've never advocated for the carnivore diet. | ||
| I said as much in the last show. | ||
| But that says something about plants, right? | ||
| Plants are awesome. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So we agree on that. | ||
| Yeah, he's never had anything wrong. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| All he's ever said was that eliminating all animal products from your diet is probably not healthy unless you follow a very strict routine where you make sure that you have all your bases covered nutritionally. | ||
| That's what Chris has said from the jump. | ||
| Yeah, I know. | ||
| I would extend that and just say that I don't think there's strong evidence suggesting that including some animal products in your whole foods plant-based diet is harmful. | ||
| That's where we seem to have an issue. | ||
| And I even said that the range of that can vary tremendously. | ||
| It could be 5% for someone who's just eating... | ||
| Mostly plant-based diet and they're eating some shellfish and organ meats for the nutrient density. | ||
| Or you could have someone who eats more animal products. | ||
| It depends on the person and what their needs are. | ||
| I go with that first half and the second half. | ||
| But just to back up what Joe does, slide 62. Because I mentioned this earlier, but we didn't put a slide on. | ||
| But I think the graphic, again, I know most people are listening. | ||
| So maybe Joe, you could describe it to people. | ||
| Differences in postprandial inflammatory responses to a modern versus traditional meat meal. | ||
| So this is basically, this is the kangaroo. | ||
| This is kangaroo meat versus beef. | ||
| Wagyu beef, is that how you pronounce it? | ||
| I think so. | ||
| Wagyu. | ||
| So you'd recognize that marks in CRP, TNF-alpha, and IL-6 are inflammatory markers? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Okay, good. | ||
| So I just want to point out that, yeah, if you're going to eat 90% plants and you're going to eat the rest of it from animal products, I think that wild-caught elk and kangaroo meat, stuff like that, would be the way to go, by far. | ||
| Well, it just makes sense. | ||
| Just to show you, there's about half the inflammation, roughly, coming from the wild-caught. | ||
| Well, that makes sense because most of the time when you're dealing with beef, you're dealing with this grain-fed, unhealthy animal. | ||
| When you're talking about Wagyu beef, that's a dying animal. | ||
| I mean, if you saw a person whose muscle tissue looked like a Wagyu steak, you'd be like, bro, you've got to get on a fucking diet. | ||
| You know? | ||
| I mean, really. | ||
| But if you saw, like, you know, an athlete, if you looked at an athlete's muscle tissue, it would look like a piece of elk, most likely. | ||
|
unidentified
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Right. | |
| It would look very lean and healthy. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And dense. | ||
| So anyway, I just wanted to point out that one, that shows a couple of things. | ||
| It shows that meat does create inflammation. | ||
| I would like to see this on grass-fed meat. | ||
| Yeah, totally. | ||
| As opposed to this feedlot bullshit. | ||
|
unidentified
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No, totally. | |
| But even if it matched the... | ||
| You know, the kangaroo meat, we're still seeing inflammation there. | ||
| And yeah, and certainly, like he said, I agree. | ||
| If you're going to eat animal foods, I think it's wise, timing-wise, to eat a lot of plant foods with those animal foods. | ||
| Right? | ||
| If you're going to eat animal foods, you should eat a lot of plants. | ||
| There's also a lot of benefits to it in terms of fiber, in terms of the microbiota. | ||
| There's a lot of benefits to having these fermented vegetables as well. | ||
| Kimchi and having things that provide you with good probiotics. | ||
| All these things, there's great benefit to a lot of plant foods. | ||
| Yeah, and people on plant-based diets just end up naturally getting more fiber. | ||
| Most people are deficient in fiber, right? | ||
| And if you look at the Paleolithic period, you'd be looking at maybe 100 grams of fiber. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| Very high fiber intake. | ||
| And people on plant-based diets get more fiber than people on other diets. | ||
| As long as you're eating healthy. | ||
| We both agree. | ||
| Oh yeah, sorry. | ||
| Eating like pasta and pizza and bullshit. | ||
| But just to be fair though, even in vegans and vegetarians in all of the studies, They're still getting more fiber, despite the fact that you and I would agree they're not eating the healthiest diet. | ||
| Overall, completely plant-based people are the only people that fall within the recommended BMI range, the people that get the most fiber. | ||
| BMI range, body mass index? | ||
| Is that what you're talking about? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah, but body mass... | ||
| It's not a great measure. | ||
| That's a shitty one, right? | ||
| That makes me obese. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Yeah? | ||
| There's a lot of nonsense to that. | ||
| I agree, generally, that if you look at people who are on a vegetarian or vegan diet compared with people on the standard American diet, then they're going to have healthier... | ||
| Right, but that's the standard American diet. | ||
| If you take someone who's eating healthy plates of broccoli and kale and also has a piece of grass-fed meat, that's what I want to talk about. | ||
| I want to talk about people following their conscious diet. | ||
| No, I totally agree. | ||
| Of course, you're going to see markers. | ||
| Like, for example, the longest study on a paleo diet, right, had a two-year follow-up. | ||
| And they had improved, they'd lost body fat, they had improved blood markers. | ||
| What was really interesting is, okay, they were told to eliminate dairy, right? | ||
| So you cut out dairy. | ||
| They were told to reduce their amount of or cut out completely processed plant foods, like white flour and sugar and all this type of stuff. | ||
| They were told to increase their fruits and vegetables, and they were told to increase their meat consumption. | ||
| And they got improved health markers all across the board. | ||
| Now, what was interesting is, at the end of the two years, what they found was that people had not stuck with the meat recommendations. | ||
| So they kept their meat recommendations the same. | ||
| They got out processed junk food, right, and trans fats and stuff that you'd all agree... | ||
| We should get out of our diet. | ||
| They took out milk out of their diet and they increased the amount of plant foods. | ||
| So it's very clear that the benefit did not come from increasing meat consumption. | ||
| It came from increased plant food consumption. | ||
| Or decreasing bullshit. | ||
| I think the benefit is decreasing bullshit. | ||
| Right. | ||
| It's a two-fold thing, right? | ||
| You cut out things that are inflammatory and you put in things that are anti-inflammatory. | ||
| You cut out things that are low in antioxidants, you incorporate things that are high in antioxidants. | ||
| So that was the major benefit. | ||
| It wasn't from increased meat consumption. | ||
| Who's saying it is from increased meat consumption? | ||
| Not me. | ||
| No, I'm just saying that was the benefit of a paleo diet, is going in a more whole food, plant-based direction. | ||
| Right, but I think that's what everyone says. | ||
| The idea is that you eliminate processed foods, you eliminate sugar, you eliminate these things that are just filled with... | ||
| But we know that it's not just... | ||
| It's a two-fold difference when you incorporate whole plant foods. | ||
| There's the opportunity cost, so you're getting rid of crab. | ||
| And in my personal opinion, and based on the consensus, you're replacing both... | ||
| Highly processed foods and animal foods and you're incorporating more whole plant foods. | ||
| And that is the scientific consensus is to eat a predominantly plant-based diet. | ||
| You could say the same thing about the benefits you see with vegetarian and vegan studies comparing with standard American diet. | ||
|
unidentified
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I agree. | |
| You're removing a lot of the crap. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| But what studies have you got comparing a NutriVore diet to... | ||
| You know, a whole food plant-based diet. | ||
| We don't have them. | ||
| So we have to infer. | ||
| And when we infer, we have to rely on experts that are experts in their field, right? | ||
| We don't turn to Chris and go, okay, can you tell us more about nutrition, anthropology, and urology than all of these experts? | ||
| I think that's... | ||
| I agree. | ||
| You shouldn't just listen to me, but I don't think it's genuine to suggest that there's a consensus that a whole food plant-based diet is a better choice than a plant-based diet that also contains some animal products. | ||
| I agree with you that we have no studies on that, and we probably won't, unfortunately, in the near future, because... | ||
| Right, especially for long-term outcomes, right? | ||
| Because you can't put people on for 40 years. | ||
| Yeah, they're not... | ||
| So I agree that it's hard, like, again, I've said before that we should be getting the vast majority of our calories from whole plant foods. | ||
| I think there's enough in the literature to show, and the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics recognizes that completely vegan diets are helpful for all the life stages, including for athletes. | ||
| I think that there's sufficient evidence to go 100%, but I'm not telling people that they should be doing that. | ||
| I'm saying people can eat whatever they want, but I think we both agree that people should be getting out junk food, right? | ||
| Soda and trans fats. | ||
| Oh, by the way, on trans fats, So that's why I asked you in the beginning of the show what your position was, because that's the fundamental question for me, is this question that we're talking about right now, which is, | ||
| is there sufficient evidence to suggest that everybody, most people, whatever you want to say, should be on 100% or even 95% plant-based diet versus a plant-based diet that contains some animal products? | ||
| And my argument all along has been, no, there's not sufficient evidence to claim that. | ||
| Right, but you also think that a completely plant-based diet is likely to be nutrient deficient and all these other things. | ||
| Do you know his history? | ||
| Do you know how he started out as a vegan? | ||
| Yeah, and that's why I think there's emotional ties. | ||
| My history. | ||
| History is not relevant. | ||
| That's an N equals 1. In terms of what happened to me. | ||
| But you presented it yourself. | ||
| You said that I had like burst mood and like suppression. | ||
| Yeah, but I've also said there are people who acknowledge that there are many successful vegans and vegan athletes. | ||
| You've invoked the N of 1 and also you didn't follow the scientific consensus about plant-based diets when you did it. | ||
| So you chose a macrobiotic diet and you chose a raw vegan diet. | ||
| Those were just two iterations of what I did. | ||
| Right, but why did you choose those when they weren't based on scientific consensus? | ||
| Because there wasn't This was 20 years ago, and I wasn't paying attention to it at the level that I'm at now. | ||
| Okay, and you traveled around the world and you got sick, and you attributed it to the diet, which it may or may not have been. | ||
| I didn't attribute it to the diet. | ||
| I don't even know why we're talking. | ||
| My experience is... | ||
| Because it's relevant because it shows that, like, I don't know why you were vegan or vegetarian. | ||
| Maybe it was for, like, animal rights reasons. | ||
| Maybe you felt bad for going back to eating meat, so now you need to field proof. | ||
| Like, the reason that you need to... | ||
| The reason that you need to try to debunk the film is because you've got a massive business selling supplements and protein powders and giving diet advice. | ||
| So our film doesn't make you... | ||
| I make very, very little money selling supplements, James. | ||
| It's not a massive business. | ||
| It's basically a convenience for my patients. | ||
| I'm just saying overall... | ||
| My business is basically training people and being a clinician. | ||
| I don't profit from selling animal products. | ||
| You do indirectly because you advise this diet. | ||
| So the film was very bad for you, personally. | ||
| Because if people believed the film... | ||
| Which, you know, like the Defense Health Agency, they review the film. | ||
| They don't care about this myth that we should eat in exactly the same way as our ancestors, not that we even really ate that way. | ||
| But they don't care about that myth. | ||
| They care that what is going to be better for warfighter effectiveness and to cut the healthcare costs of our military. | ||
| So they looked at the science independently. | ||
| You think the Defense Health Agency is full of vegans? | ||
| The film is neither here nor there for me. | ||
| But that's what we're here for. | ||
| The reason that I'm here is because, and the reason that I came when Joe invited me, and he can probably tell you that it took a few invitations to get me here, is just to provide the other side of the view here. | ||
| It's not because Because it materially affects me in any way. | ||
| Believe me, I've got lots of other things, as I told you in the email, that I'm focusing on. | ||
| Yes, you do lots of other things, not on nutrition. | ||
| So even like my nutrition team, they spend full time either consulting elite athletes or military personnel, or they're digging into the research. | ||
| Like our chief science advisor, eight hours a day, all he does is dig into the latest research. | ||
| So you come onto Joe's podcast, and people are supposed to believe that you are the best person to... | ||
| Because you say it's about the meta-analysis, and you say it's about the totality of evidence. | ||
| We agree. | ||
| But what you're suggesting is that people should listen to your interpretation of the evidence when you get things factually wrong. | ||
| People should make up their own minds based on the evidence that we have provided. | ||
| And you don't even know how to read a basic forest plot. | ||
| That is my point. | ||
| Because you're not certified, and you're not... | ||
| Again, I'm not a specialist in nutrition. | ||
| I would have liked to have brought David, our chief science advisor, who knows a hundred times more about nutrition than I do. | ||
| And you're coming on here telling people what to eat. | ||
| You said yourself you're not an expert in nutrition, and you don't know how to read the nutritional data. | ||
| Let's talk about some of the claims. | ||
| Okay, let's talk about protein. | ||
| No, we're talking about the film. | ||
| Let's talk about the protein. | ||
| So, is that fair, Joe? | ||
| We should get to it? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Okay, so, can I just, just so I understand your position, and I'm sorry for getting worked up, like, I feel like I'm like an attorney trying to interrogate you, but I feel like I spent a lot of time digging into research. | ||
| I had the research checked and checked and checked again. | ||
| I had the research checked to make sure that it was not cherry-picking, that it was reflective of the preponderance of evidence. | ||
| But who was checking it? | ||
| Were they people who were not advocates of a whole food, plant-based diet exclusively? | ||
| Or were they people like... | ||
| Because all of the experts in the film are people who are clearly aligned with that perspective. | ||
| I interview them because they're aligned with the consensus. | ||
| And no, and over half of the people in the film... | ||
| I thought you just agreed that there is not a consensus that a 100% plant-based diet is better than a diet that includes a lot of plants and some animal products. | ||
| So where were the experts that would represent that point of view? | ||
| It doesn't have to be 100% plant-based diet. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| It doesn't have to be 100%. | ||
| The film said plant-based diets. | ||
| Now, I'll tell you why we only interviewed vegans for the athletes, right? | ||
| The ones that actually spoke on screen. | ||
| And Arnold is not vegan. | ||
| He doesn't drink dairy. | ||
| He thinks it's for babies. | ||
| And he's cut down meat by 80%. | ||
| But all the people... | ||
| I mean, you know, Nate is not 100% vegan. | ||
| He's on a largely plant-based diet. | ||
| He eats a bit of seafood and a bit of stuff like that. | ||
| But all the people interviewed... | ||
| Yeah, eggs as well. | ||
| So... | ||
| The reason that we only put... | ||
| And by the way, we did interview Lauren Cordain and Rob Wolf, and I can get to that as well if you want. | ||
| Because the anthropologists laughed in their faces when the claims that they made. | ||
| You know, I'm talking about scientists who published these, you know, who are on the team to publish the papers that I've shared. | ||
| Yeah, like Nutri-Rex who are funded by the industry, and we can get to that. | ||
| No, not Nutri... | ||
| That's disingenuous to claim that all of the research that I've shared here is industry-funded and so we can't acknowledge it. | ||
| But your claim that, like, the recent study that just came out, and we're getting off track, but the recent study that just came out that said that red meat and processed meat is totally fine, like, you really want to go with that? | ||
| Like, to me it feels like you don't have your finger on the pulse, honestly. | ||
| I'm not trying to be rude. | ||
| I think you probably know a lot about your field. | ||
| Well, what do you think about that study? | ||
| Well, the Nutri-Reg study? | ||
| The study that said that red meat... | ||
| Yeah, it's a Nutri-Rex study. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So in the Annals of Internal Medicine, the day before the film came out, six studies exonerating red meat and processed meat, all from the same company that are apparently giving recommendations. | ||
| Well, guess what? | ||
| Exponent and Nutri-Rex and companies like that are not the ones that give public recommendations on what people should be eating, number one. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| And we talked about this in the film with Exponent. | ||
| Nutri-Rex is like another Exponent. | ||
| So... | ||
| If you look at their recommendations, first of all, Frank Hu, who is now the chair of Nutrition at Harvard, he took Walt Willett's place, said the panel's blanket recommendations that adults should continue their red meat consumption habits is highly irresponsible. | ||
| Walter Willett said it's the most egregious abuse of data he's ever seen. | ||
| And if you want to follow their recommendations, if you could put up slide 92. So they did the same thing in 2017 for the sugar industry. | ||
| So, there was a meta-analysis in the annals of internal... | ||
| When you say they, you mean the exact same company? | ||
| So, Bradley Johnston is the director and co-founder of Nutrex and the first author of the paper that we're talking about for Red Meat. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| They're just exonerated red meat, apparently, and processed meat. | ||
| So this is the same company says, at present, there seems to be no reliable evidence indicating that any of the recommended daily caloric thresholds for sugar intake are strongly associated with negative health effects. | ||
| So they did a meta-analysis saying that don't worry about your intake of sugar at all. | ||
| That was what their meta-analysis conclusion it came to. | ||
| And then two years later, the day before the film came out, and do you really think that's a coincidence? | ||
| Do you think that the... | ||
| So let me tell you something, okay? | ||
| Of our email subscribers, do you know the email address of the person that opens and views our emails the most? | ||
| It's from the Beef Checkoff program, and they've been doing that since we started. | ||
| So they sign up for our mailing list, they look at when the film is coming out, And you think it's a coincidence that the day before the film comes out, they release a paper exonerating red meat and cancer. | ||
| So if you're going to buy into the Nutri-Rex study about red meat and cancer, then to be fair, you've also got to buy into their conclusions about sugar. | ||
| I'll tell you who they were paid by. | ||
| So financial support for that paper was funded by... | ||
| The Technical Committee on Dietary Carbohydrates of ILSI North America. | ||
| And ISI is the International Life Sciences Institute. | ||
| Sounds pretty legit, right? | ||
| So, its members include Coca-Cola, Hershey Company, Pepsi Company, and Red Bull, and a bunch of others. | ||
| Folks looking out for your best interests. | ||
| There you go. | ||
| It would be a problem if that was the only... | ||
| You claimed this recent study, and I honestly, again, no disrespect, you're busy with lots of other things, you run a successful business, consulting people, selling stuff. | ||
| I get you don't have the time. | ||
| You weren't able to read a basic forest plot to look at statistical significance and confidence intervals. | ||
| I just don't think that you're the one to interpret the data. | ||
| So the reason you don't have the... | ||
| You haven't seen the hundreds of... | ||
| Really respected scientists that have come out saying that this Nutirex study, and by the way, there's an investigation into the Annals of Internal Medicine because of this, for accepting this stuff from Nutirex. | ||
| But if you're going to accept the meta-analysis on red meat and on processed meat for cancer, then you've also got to accept the 2017 study meta-analysis. | ||
| If you accept the source. | ||
| If you accept the source... | ||
| If the only meta-analysis that showed no association between red meat and heart disease or cancer, that would be highly problematic. | ||
| First, I'm talking about the one that you cited. | ||
| You made out that this is like... | ||
| Second of all, I have pointed out that industry-funded research is four to eight times more likely, right? | ||
| Yeah, I agree. | ||
| And going back to that dairy one, by the way, do you know that when they did their meta-analysis, they doubled and tripled and quadrupled up? | ||
| Because when the meta-analysis that analyzed the meta-analyses, the multiple meta-analyses, included... | ||
| The studies multiple times. | ||
| You see what I'm saying? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Because they took it into account each time. | ||
| And so when the industry floods the scientific research with their funded studies, again, if they fund a study, it doesn't turn out. | ||
| They're studying other studies and coming to the same conclusion and adding those on as if it's an additional study. | ||
| Is that what you're saying? | ||
| No. | ||
| Look, if your industry funds studies and it only decides... | ||
| If you're in a beef industry or a dairy industry, are you going to put out studies that aren't in your favour? | ||
| No, right? | ||
| And you also... | ||
| And they don't have to. | ||
| You spin it. | ||
| And so what you do is, if you want to make beef look better... | ||
| If you want to make saturated fat look okay... | ||
| Or if you want to make cholesterol okay, you can switch things around in the study to make it look good. | ||
| if you want to like look at eggs and for example and i don't want to get like it could turn into a three-hour debate about cholesterol and saturated fat but if you if you give uh if you go from 10 eggs a week to 12 eggs a week it doesn't raise your uh serum cholesterol so that's how they did the study but if you go from no eggs a week to one egg a week it does increase your because there's something called the cholesterol plateau so what the industry does is it tricks you it does but then when you look at eggs and outcomes like cardiovascular disease you don't see well you do but we're getting off track | ||
| i was just making a point that industry-funded studies sway the results of the meta-analysis right I think that's fair. | ||
| And it's done with the sugar industry, and it was done with tobacco. | ||
| And again, I'm not comparing the amount of increased risk of cancer from tobacco. | ||
| That was never a claim that was made. | ||
| It was the playbook that is used by the drug industry, by the meat industry, by the sugar industry, by the dairy industry. | ||
| So even though your film came out and these studies came out right before your film, it's kind of proving your point that this same company that tried to exonerate the sugar industry is also... | ||
| Yeah, if you're going to accept that, if you're going to cite that as evidence... | ||
| If you're going to cite that company... | ||
| The reason I think, because like you said, you're so busy on many other things, is I just don't think that your fingers on the pulse... | ||
| That was not the only study that I said. | ||
| I know it's not. | ||
| There's many other meta-analyses, 2010, 15, we can look at them, you know... | ||
| Well, let's do that. | ||
| Let's look at those studies. | ||
| But again, they're including studies that are funded by industry. | ||
| And so unless you can pass those out and say, is that really... | ||
| So you're saying we can't... | ||
| You rely on any study... | ||
| No, I didn't say that. | ||
| That's the straw man. | ||
| I said that you would really need to look at the way in which a study is designed to see if it was viable. | ||
| And you also have to replicate the studies. | ||
| Studies have to be replicated. | ||
| And so what I'm saying is... | ||
| So there's a... | ||
| Can I just finish the last point and then I'll let you show as many studies as you want? | ||
| Because again, you can show as many studies as you want, you can't prove that you're not handpicking them to suit your bias. | ||
| You are the one that quoted this study. | ||
| It shows that your finger's not on the pulse because hundreds of top scientists have written letters, or joined in the same letter, to the Alzheimer's internal medicine asking for those studies to be retracted. | ||
| And there's now an investigation into the annals of internal medicine, yet you are citing that study. | ||
| An investigation doesn't prove, nothing has been proven yet, and I was aware of that controversy. | ||
| But you can't even read forest plots, but you're telling people what to eat. | ||
| The controversy is not surprising. | ||
| If red meat has been demonized for as long as it has been, and then a study comes out which exonerates it, it would be entirely expected that there would be controversy. | ||
| And do you know who that study was funded by? | ||
| Can you just pick up slide 93? | ||
| Just to show that... | ||
| Anyway, so it's not just me saying this. | ||
| I mean, the... | ||
| the scientists who discredited meat guidelines didn't report past food industry ties. | ||
| Because remember, most people are listening. | ||
| Scientists who discredited meat guidelines didn't report past food industry ties. | ||
| The lead researcher, Bradley C. Johnston, said he was not required to report his past relationship with a powerful industry trade group I don't know what that trade group is, but if you scroll down... | ||
| I can tell you, in the first one, the sugar one, it was that Pepsi and all this stuff, although they make a non-profit with a fancy sounding name, and then they back it all with industry funding. | ||
| Same with the Meek study. | ||
| That's why I don't understand why he'd use it. | ||
| If you were being objective, You're saying, oh, there's other studies. | ||
| But why name this one as though it's got validity? | ||
| So you feel like they concocted this study and released it right before your film specifically to try to take some of those. | ||
| I think it's likely that it was tied into the film. | ||
| But it doesn't matter whether it is. | ||
| I'm showing that to... | ||
| To present that study as evidence, when the consensus of the scientific researchers is against that study, that is calling for an investigation, that has asked for it to be retracted, the co-author of the paper, who's part of the leadership team at NutraRex, he's the Vance Chancellor of Dean in Agriculture and Life Sciences at Texas A&M. Texas A&M is partnered with the Beef Checkoff Program. | ||
| And this is also discussed in the New York Times, slide 94. And there's actually, it goes a lot deeper than that. | ||
| It actually goes back to Brazilian government. | ||
| Let's see, slide 94. Slide 94 is just talking about... | ||
| Research group that discounted risks of red meat has ties to program partly backed by beef industry. | ||
| So this doesn't necessarily mean what they're saying is incorrect. | ||
| And this is where it gets slippery, right? | ||
| Because if they found things that happen to be correct, and they release it, but they release it from a shitty company that has said things in the past. | ||
| It's a shitty company that chose, and it handpicked which studies it included in meta-analysis. | ||
| Because you've had plenty of time to explain this. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| To get to your point, Chris, you agree with the conclusion of that study, and you think that the evidence points that there's many studies that point to the idea that red meat is not, in fact, the culprit. | ||
| And the culprit is when you're looking at these epidemiology studies, that you're looking at the overall diet of these people and asking them, do they eat meat? | ||
| You're not asking them, what is the quality of the food they eat? | ||
| Yeah, so I agree that conflicts of interest are a problem. | ||
| And the editorial that was published in Annals alongside of this study said, this is sure to be controversial, but it's based on the most comprehensive review of the evidence to date. | ||
| Because that review is inclusive, those who seek to dispute it will be hard-pressed to find appropriate evidence. | ||
| And who? | ||
| Who wrote that? | ||
| The meta-analyses had studies covering millions of participants over 34 years. | ||
| There are several other meta-analyses that have been done over the past few years, so I don't know the best way to show these because I've got them in a Google Doc. | ||
| So 2017, let's see if I can give you the title, Jamie, maybe you can Google it or something. | ||
| Contemporary Review of the Relationship Between Red Meat Consumption and Cardiovascular Risk. | ||
| Quote from that study, the review concluded, quote, recent findings demonstrated that despite the presence of heme iron and carnitine, Red meat does not significantly increase cardiovascular risk when it is assumed in recommended doses. | ||
| You have 2014 meta-analysis of 13 studies. | ||
| Again, this one, Jamie, is called association between Total processed red and white meat consumption all cause cardiovascular disease, heart disease, mortality. | ||
| And this is a good example of what you were just saying, Joe. | ||
| There was a slight increased association between red meat consumption and cardiovascular mortality And then at the end, no significant associations is observed between any type of meat and heart disease mortality. | ||
| Results of the present meta-analysis indicate that processed meat consumption could increase mortality. | ||
| These results should be interpreted with caution due to the high heterogeneity observed in most of the analyses as well as the possibility of residual confounding, meaning healthy user bias. | ||
| Lippi, in a meta-analysis of 11 studies of red meat consumption and heart disease, concluded that, quote, the current literature data does not support the existence of a clear relationship between a large intake of red meat and increased risk of myocardial ischemia. | ||
| And then this is one of the largest that was done. | ||
| Let me give you the title of this, Jamie. | ||
| Red and processed meat consumption and risk of incident coronary heart disease. | ||
| That should bring it up. | ||
| That's by Misha et al. | ||
| Conclusion. | ||
| Consumption of processed meat but not red meat is associated with higher incidence of heart disease and diabetes. | ||
| So there's a bunch of meta-analyses that have been done over the years that reached the same conclusion, and we could look at the same, this is for heart disease, but there are also some for cancer. | ||
| So, it's not just that study. | ||
| There are many others as well. | ||
| There are many others. | ||
| And meta-analyses. | ||
| And there are meta-analyses on the other side. | ||
| So, you can present studies here so that people listening… That's true. | ||
| There are meta-analyses on the other side. | ||
|
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Right. | |
| And you can present the data for the people listening, and it appears like the preponderance evidence is that. | ||
| But your guidelines for diet… They're not in alignment for saturated fat. | ||
| They're not in diet for cholesterol. | ||
| They're not in diet for the amount of carbohydrates for normal people. | ||
| They're not in line with the consensus for carbohydrates for athletes. | ||
| I've said a range of carbohydrates could be appropriate for people. | ||
| What I'm saying is you are not in alignment. | ||
| With the scientific consensus. | ||
| And you claim that we cherry-picked in the film, right? | ||
| But you hand-picked studies to back up your bias. | ||
| Not to mention that we've pointed out that the studies in those meta-analyses, some of them are heavily funded by industry, not saying that you should throw all those out, but you don't have the wherewithal to assess the studies in the meta-analysis because you pointed out yourself that you can't even read a forest plot. | ||
| So he reads conclusions, right? | ||
| He reads conclusions in writing, but has not looked at the actual data. | ||
| So, you haven't been able to establish. | ||
| When I spent the first thousand hours, I would look at the whole paper, and then I would look at each author, and I would dig into each author to see where their funding was from. | ||
| And I'm telling you that the industry is funding studies. | ||
| To sway things in their favor. | ||
| And you point, it shows that you don't have your finger on the pulse. | ||
| There's no doubt about that. | ||
| Why didn't you point to those last time? | ||
| Why did you point to an industry-funded study? | ||
| I have pointed to those before. | ||
| But in the last one, why point out in the Nutirex study, you know, when it was clearly invalid, the scientists... | ||
| Wait, wait, wait. | ||
| Not clearly invalid. | ||
| It wasn't representative of the scientific evidence. | ||
| They handpicked the studies they were including. | ||
| They used the grade methodology. | ||
| Do you know what the grade methodology is? | ||
| I do. | ||
| And do you think that's appropriate for assessing food rather than pharmaceuticals? | ||
| According to some nutrition organizations, it is. | ||
| Well, very few. | ||
| It's not a scientific consensus. | ||
| What is the National Academy of... | ||
| Basically, they used the methodology that wasn't appropriate for looking at what they were looking at. | ||
| It's just the same with the Siritorino and the Chowdhury studies. | ||
| What they were looking for could never have been found. | ||
| The association between saturated fat and cholesterol levels, it could never have been found based on the methodology that they used. | ||
| Do you agree with that? | ||
| We still haven't got to protein. | ||
| And I, you know, we get to that. | ||
| Let's go. | ||
| So, so the, it's absolutely true. | ||
| I've never claimed that there aren't studies correlating red meat with poor health outcomes. | ||
| I never have claimed that and I've said those studies are highly problematic for all of the reasons that I've talked about on the last show and on previous shows. | ||
| Healthy user bias. | ||
| Problems with data collection, food frequency questionnaires, relative versus absolute risk, confounding like, you know, not looking at physical activity, and the biggest confounder of all, not looking at diet quality. | ||
| I'd love to go to diet quality because I know you like to use Matt Lalonde's work, which has never been published, which obviously was built in What? | ||
| I have not used Matt Lalonde's work in connection with diet quality. | ||
| I'm talking about food patterns, like healthy food pattern, eating healthy... | ||
| In terms of nutrient density, which is a part of diet quality, you have referred to Matt Lalonde's work. | ||
| I'm happy to talk about that. | ||
| I'm still talking about the research on red meat being problematic because it doesn't consider the overall diet pattern. | ||
| First of all, you don't have the wherewithal to interpret the scientific evidence, which is very clear that you don't understand forest plots. | ||
| You recognize that you have to look at the totality of evidence, and you have to be able to dig in and look at where the things are pointing. | ||
| You yourself said, I am not an expert in nutrition. | ||
| And you said, and again, I'm not either, which is I don't even know why we're sitting here having this discussion, honestly. | ||
| We should get some real experts in. | ||
| We could do that too. | ||
| You can point on your side who you think the experts are, and I'll point on our side who we think the experts are. | ||
| I mean, I don't even like to say size, really, because to me, it's not really my position. | ||
| I think your position is a lot better than the standard American diet. | ||
| The opposition is really like the carnivores, right? | ||
| Well, your position, yeah, that's the opposite. | ||
| Your position, though, is in defense of your film. | ||
| Yeah, I'm defending the film. | ||
| And in response to his critique. | ||
| And how do you think I'm doing so far? | ||
| Well, with B12, it was a home run, for sure. | ||
| Well, I think there's lots of other things, but... | ||
| Well, we still haven't really shown whether or not there's evidence that... | ||
| See, that's the problem with all this stuff. | ||
| When you're dealing with these epidemiology studies, it's so hard to figure out what's what. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| What are these people eating? | ||
| Who are these people? | ||
| Are they drinking? | ||
| Are they doing drugs? | ||
| What is the overall health quality based on? | ||
| I agree. | ||
| How much of it is based on their diet? | ||
| And that's why we look at scientific consensus. | ||
| Could you just bring up slide one? | ||
| Do you agree with him or dispute what he's saying about scientific consensus? | ||
| Would you agree that you're not in line with the scientific consensus? | ||
| My general dietary recommendations? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Probably. | ||
| Some aspects of it, but not all aspects. | ||
| But generally, I mean, come on. | ||
| I don't think that's... | ||
| What do you think the scientific consensus, Chris, what do you think the scientific consensus is when it comes to dietary recommendations? | ||
| Well, it's changed a little bit in the past few years. | ||
| It definitely was low fat, although that is changing a little bit. | ||
| There's some recognition of different fats, may have different effects, etc. | ||
| It would be limiting red meat, would be limiting saturated fat, limiting cholesterol, eating a lot of plants and whole foods, limiting sugar, This is a scientific insight. | ||
| Hold on, please. | ||
| What is that based on? | ||
| What do you think that's based on? | ||
| That's based on, you know, mostly observational research and then some mechanistic studies and some RCTs. | ||
| But even RCTs, if you're comparing, again, like some of the studies that are cited, for example, in David Goldman's papers, they're comparing a standard American diet with a plant-based diet. | ||
| So in a crossover trial, randomized trial, that's not comparing apples to apples. | ||
| But anyways, to get back to your question, I would say about half of what I recommend is consistent if we use the factors that I just said, eating whole foods and... | ||
| Not eating processed and refined foods, limiting sugar, all of that. | ||
| The areas where I differ are red meat, saturated fat, but not always. | ||
| I think that's individual and depends on how people actually respond to saturated fats, and eggs, and total fat content, depending on the person. | ||
| What about legumes and grains? | ||
| I think they can be part of a healthy diet if they're well tolerated. | ||
| And you do think that the research has shown a whole food plant-based diet versus standard American diet, people are getting improvements on that? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I think everybody... | ||
| I definitely think there should be more studies. | ||
| Standard American diet. | ||
| Some people I've found don't do well with grains and legumes, especially people with digestive issues. | ||
| So for them, maybe not. | ||
| But I've never argued that grains and legumes are... | ||
| I'm not a strict paleo kind of advocate. | ||
| And you pointed out last time, I think it was Rhonda Patrick that talked about it too, because obviously I watch your podcast, and you pointed out about these hormetic stressors that we talked about earlier, and so these people that are talking about anti-nutrients in food, they really don't know what they're talking about. | ||
| That's a red herring. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| They don't know what they're talking about. | ||
| It's a really common thing. | ||
| Look, the landscape of food is enormous. | ||
| The landscape of dietary requirements and of health, it's enormous. | ||
| And just you talking about spending thousands and thousands of hours combing over this research can attest to that. | ||
| And Chris, I think you can as well. | ||
| I mean, this is a very complicated issue and there's a certain amount of bio-variability. | ||
| Different people have different physical requirements, different nutritional requirements. | ||
| But I think we're trying to zoom in on what is actually bad for you and what is actually good for you, I think we agree on. | ||
| I think we all agree. | ||
| Everyone here agrees that... | ||
| You basically need a certain amount of vegetables in your diet. | ||
| You need vitamins, whether you can get those vitamins from supplements like B12 supplements or whether you can get it from the actual food that you eat. | ||
| There's certain dietary requirements that I think we're all in agreement on. | ||
| I think where we disagree on is whether or not red meat is bad for you and what kind of red meat we're talking about and why is it bad and what Is it bad when it sits alone, or is it bad when you're eating it with vegetables, which is what we're recommending in the first place? | ||
| So if we're recommending that you eat it with vegetables, and these vegetables do have this sort of balancing effect of the negative aspects or the perceived negative aspects, even though there's no evidence that those negative aspects, when eaten by itself, because we don't really have long-term studies on carnivore diet people. | ||
| I think mostly we're in agreement here. | ||
| You're defending your film, and rightly so. | ||
| I mean, I think there was a bunch of claims that were untrue. | ||
| Well, clearly you've proven with the B12 issue that he said some things that made you look like you were saying things that were inaccurate and uninformed. | ||
| And he's done that with a bunch of other things too, though. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| And so he did it with protein. | ||
| Let's go to the protein. | ||
| Before we get to that, can I just show what the consensus actually is on diet? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Okay, so can you just bring up slide one? | ||
| And I mentioned this earlier, but I didn't show it. | ||
| So the World Health Organization recommends that people eat a nutritious diet based on a variety of foods originating mainly from plants rather than animals, which you said you could agree with, right? | ||
| Because it's like not vegan necessarily, like mainly from plants. | ||
| Yeah, I mean the proportions are a question mark there. | ||
| And then the, actually slide three would be the FAO, the Appropriately planned vegetarian including vegan diets. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Appropriately planned vegetarian including vegan diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. | ||
| That's a weird... | ||
| Appropriately planned is a weird way of phrasing it. | ||
| Well, it is. | ||
| And it's also a little bit unfair because it sort of says if you eat an omnivorous diet, it doesn't need to be appropriately planned. | ||
| Eat whatever the hell you want. | ||
| Yeah, that's a good point. | ||
| These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. | ||
| So these women that you hear that are getting arrested because their babies are malnourished because they're following a vegan diet... | ||
| Appropriately planned is the key phrase. | ||
| Yeah, I would agree with that. | ||
| I said that at the beginning of the show. | ||
| I acknowledge that they're very healthy, high-performing, vegans, people on plant-based diets. | ||
| If they do it right, they can do it. | ||
| And if someone wanted to take your advice, would they have to do that right and plan that? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| I think everybody agrees that you have to plan out your diet correctly. | ||
| If you want to exercise properly, you've got to have a plan. | ||
| You've got to plan to go to the grocery store. | ||
| You've got to plan to get the right foods. | ||
| There are some nutrients that are of potentially bigger concern, I think, on vegan and vegetarian diets. | ||
| Happy to get into that. | ||
| Can we just show two more slides on the proportion of evidence? | ||
| I completely agree with appropriately planned. | ||
| Okay, good. | ||
| So we recognize that as long as you plan it well, you have B12, you get a wide variety of foods. | ||
| This is the same one. | ||
| No, no, the slide after that. | ||
| I meant for omnivores, too. | ||
| We want people to be thinking about what they're eating. | ||
|
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Totally. | |
| And we agree that most people are eating a bunch of crap. | ||
| So here we go. | ||
| The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the American Heart Association, and the 2015 and 2020 Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommend appropriately planned vegetarian diets for improved health. | ||
| That's a statement by Frank, who is the current chair of nutrition at Harvard looking at plant-based diets and cardiovascular health. | ||
| And then slide two is the FAO. Sorry, I got the slides in the wrong order. | ||
| This is the FAO. I don't know what messed up with the... | ||
| It doesn't look like that on my page. | ||
| Anyway, households should select predominantly plant-based diets rich in a variety of vegetables and fruits, pulses and legumes, which again, a lot of people on the paleo diet would say is useless, and minimally processed starchy staple foods, The evidence that such diets will prevent or delay a significant proportion of non-communicable chronic diseases is consistent. | ||
| So all I'm pointing out here is that you're not in line with the consensus of science and that you don't have the ability to read the papers. | ||
| That's all I'm pointing out. | ||
| I'm in line with pretty much everything that has been shown just then. | ||
| There's only one of the paragraphs that you mentioned even mentioned animal products and it didn't recommend excluding them entirely. | ||
| So you would point out that one, you agree that predominantly plant-based is the way to go and that as long as you plan it appropriately, vegan diets can be healthful. | ||
| Yes, I agree. | ||
| I said as much that vegan diets can be healthful on the first show if they're appropriately planned. | ||
| And I don't know, you know, predominantly plant-based. | ||
| Again, if you look at the plate and we see mostly plants there and then animal products, then yes, if we're talking about calories. | ||
| So do you agree by calories then? | ||
| No. | ||
| Okay, so you're not in alignment with the scientific consensus again, though? | ||
| I'm not in alignment with that consensus. | ||
| Okay, so it's not on the predominantly getting your calories from plants, which is the scientific consensus. | ||
| You're not with saturated fat and cholesterol and a bunch of other things, heme iron. | ||
| But anyway, so can we get a protein? | ||
| Because we're really here to defend his critiques of the film. | ||
| Because, you know, honestly, I've got people that watch the film Changed their diet, started feeling better, watched this podcast where he debunked the film and then called me a lot, you know, like write me a message on Instagram saying you are full of shit. | ||
| You shouldn't read comments. | ||
| It was actually, you know, it was an Instagram, like a message. | ||
| Don't read that either. | ||
| But anyway, I'm just saying like, it's a shame that you have someone that doesn't really have the capability to really understand the literature coming on here and people buying into it, talking smack on the film where he made a bunch of factually wrong comments. | ||
| Let's talk about protein. | ||
| Let's get into protein for sure. | ||
| And again, I'm not even the one that's qualified. | ||
| If I'm beating him on some arguments, what do you think you would get if you had a real nutrition expert in here? | ||
| I'm not qualified to do this. | ||
|
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I would like to see it. | |
| I would like to see it. | ||
| Okay, so can I just, your concerns with the protein, and just make sure I'm understanding your argument. | ||
| Protein quantity and protein quality. | ||
| And within protein quality, it would be the amino acid profile and the digestibility. | ||
| Is that fair? | ||
| Those are your issues with the protein. | ||
| Those are the considerations of protein. | ||
| Okay, cool. | ||
| So we're on the same page for what we're discussing, right? | ||
| So I just don't know where you... | ||
| And again, not saying that it's not possible to get enough protein quantity and quality and mix of amino acids in if you're really on it. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But if it's well planned. | ||
| Just like if any other diet was well planned. | ||
| I think it's less likely that you'll get protein right on a completely vegan diet than it is on a diet that contains animal protein. | ||
| It's more complicated. | ||
| It's not more complicated. | ||
| What it is, is if you don't know what you're doing... | ||
| And you've been eating in a certain way for 30 years, and you suddenly take your meat off the plate, and you only eat what was left on the plate, you're going to have a problem. | ||
| Yeah, it's more complicated. | ||
|
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Right. | |
| Exactly. | ||
| So that's why we put resources on our website. | ||
| The level of knowledge and understanding about that is pretty low, in my experience. | ||
| Right. | ||
| No, I agree. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| I think people need more resources to make better informed decisions about their health, about their exercise, and so on. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| What's your position on what he said about protein? | ||
| Okay, so I'm just quoting you from last time. | ||
| Man, you really put me through a lot of hours of extra work. | ||
| Now it's gone from like 3,000 to like 3,100, you know? | ||
| Anyway, so there was just so much wrong with what you said that I just had to go into every single topic. | ||
| But anyway, so three ounces of, you said, three ounces of 90% lean ground beef. | ||
| Do you think that animal fat is not good for you? | ||
| Because all of a sudden now, Chris is a... | ||
| Well, that's not what he's saying. | ||
| He's talking about protein content. | ||
| Yeah, but what was the statement in the film? | ||
| Lean ground beef, meaning that for protein content, though. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| The statement in the film was... | ||
| I think that's the most common... | ||
| No, it's not actually. | ||
| If you go to the store... | ||
| No, it's not actually not. | ||
| It's anywhere from... | ||
| And grass-fed beef, which is what I advocate, that's generally leaner. | ||
| Okay, great. | ||
| But he was specifically talking about protein content. | ||
| No, I know. | ||
| That's what we're going to go into. | ||
| Right, okay. | ||
| Lean ground beef. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| But basically what I had said, and I can't remember the exact words that I said, but I pretty much do, because I recorded it a number of times. | ||
| So, one cup of cooked lentils or a peanut butter sandwich has about as much protein as three ounces of beef or three large eggs. | ||
| That was what I said. | ||
| I might be off on a word, but that was what I said. | ||
| I said about as much protein. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| So you go on to say three ounces of 90% lean ground beef. | ||
| Well, already what you did is you picked leaner beef. | ||
| But, you know, even though you don't advocate for that, you don't think the animal fat is bad. | ||
| So what you did is you picked the leanest beef. | ||
| Anyway, you say it has 24 grams of protein. | ||
| I'm not sure what your source is. | ||
| But he does advocate for grass-fed beef. | ||
| Grass-fed beef is leaner. | ||
| So if he's talking about what he does advocate for, that does make sense. | ||
| It's three ounces of ground lean meat. | ||
| Okay, but the thing is, the point in the film... | ||
| Because you weren't saying that. | ||
| Most people... | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| So you were saying... | ||
| I'm defending what we said in the film. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So you were saying regular, standard American ground beef... | ||
| Has about as much... | ||
| It's about what we're trying to point... | ||
| The point of this thing was not to say this is the best foods to eat. | ||
| It was just to say like... | ||
| You're making a comparison. | ||
| The regular stuff that you eat, like a peanut butter sandwich, people think no protein at all. | ||
| Right. | ||
|
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They think... | |
| You know, people think that plants have no protein. | ||
| The first question you get asked, well, where do you get your protein? | ||
|
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|
Right. | |
| So I said it's got about as much protein. | ||
| So you say then... | ||
| Oh, and by the way, I'd listened to your 30-minute podcast, trying to take down the film, which came out before you came on Joe's podcast. | ||
| And you said that you, and you sort of backed this up, I don't know, this happened like from one article and it got spread and spread and spread, that someone said, you need five tablespoons of peanut butter to get the same amount of protein. | ||
| In what world does someone, and you changed your tune a little bit when you came on the podcast, but when I make a peanut butter sandwich, I use bread, two pieces of bread. | ||
| How many, like, you would use two pieces of bread and peanut butter sandwich? | ||
| I think that's what a sandwich means. | ||
| I think by definition, right? | ||
| It's pretty much okay. | ||
|
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Sure. | |
| So what you did on your podcast, you admit that a tablespoon of peanut butter is four grams, right? | ||
| Mm-hmm. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| And what is four times five? | ||
| Twenty. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And then per USDA, how much is one piece of whole wheat bread? | ||
| Four or five, depending on the source you look at. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| How many pieces of bread? | ||
| Two? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Okay, so five grams of protein in bread. | ||
| The one that I actually have at home is six grams, but let's take USDA. Okay. | ||
| So five. | ||
| Five plus five is? | ||
| Chris? | ||
| Ten. | ||
| Plus 20 from the peanut butter is? | ||
| Thirty. | ||
| Well, even on the leanest beef that you chose, it was 24 grams. | ||
| Why did you say you needed five tablespoons of peanut butter? | ||
| And I know how it came about. | ||
| Because I think what you do is you take other people's work like Denise Minger and all these other people. | ||
| You read their articles and you take their arguments. | ||
| Because some of the stuff that are on your site is very reflective of people's other arguments on other sites. | ||
| So there was something that started where people started saying you need five tablespoons of peanut butter. | ||
| And in the first article it said, without the bread. | ||
| Now I don't know why you don't include bread. | ||
| When you make a sandwich, because most people do. | ||
| It's not just peanut butter. | ||
| And I almost bought a peanut butter sandwich in here today to show you what two tablespoons of peanut butter looks like, or two and a half. | ||
| Because the one I had, I looked at it, and it was surprising. | ||
| When you actually measure a real tablespoon, it's actually not that much peanut butter. | ||
| So mine, I figured out, has about two and a half tablespoons and two pieces of bread. | ||
| My bread has like six grams. | ||
| So my peanut butter is about 22 grams. | ||
| White bread would be more like 2 or 3 grams of protein. | ||
| But again, we showed a piece of whole wheat bread on there. | ||
| We're advocating eating mostly whole foods. | ||
| That's a whole grain. | ||
| No one is saying... | ||
| We even said in the film, if we wanted cherry pick, we'd just try and push plants. | ||
| We said white sugar and white flour. | ||
| Bad for you. | ||
| It was associated with weight gain. | ||
| Carbohydrates from whole food sources are associated with better lean body mass, lower body fat percentage, and everything else. | ||
| But anyway, so I don't understand your math. | ||
| What I think you did is you took that article, because articles that spread from that article forgot to put the bit in parentheses without the two pieces of bread. | ||
| So you take five tablespoons of peanut butter, At 4 grams a piece, that's 20 grams, right? | ||
| Which is around what beef is. | ||
| Two pieces of bread, 10 grams. | ||
| That's 30. So why did 24 grams of your hand-picked lean beef, which you don't even necessarily... | ||
| There's no reason that you should be picking that one. | ||
| That's not what we showed in the film. | ||
| Why are you comparing 24 grams to 30 grams? | ||
| Why didn't you say 4 tablespoons of peanut butter? | ||
| Fair enough? | ||
| Fair enough. | ||
| Got it wrong again. | ||
| So it's frustrating when I watch the show, because every five minutes I'm hearing something that's just factually incorrect. | ||
| Oh, that's why I'm here. | ||
| That's why I'm here. | ||
| Now, again, appreciate the both of you. | ||
| So can we just look at the actual breakdown of all these different things? | ||
| So again, the peanut butter sandwich is 22 grams, but that's maybe a little bit more than some people do. | ||
| The other argument was the quality of the protein. | ||
| We'll get to that, but quantity first. | ||
| So if you go to bread on slide four, I don't need to do this. | ||
| You've agreed. | ||
| You've agreed. | ||
| Right, okay. | ||
| So, and lentils, if you want to do slide eight. | ||
| Oh, no, no, sorry. | ||
| What you haven't agreed on is, I'm going to say two tablespoons of peanut butter and two pieces of bread. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay? | |
| Fair enough? | ||
| Say, for what? | ||
| I'm just going to say, like, the comparison, roughly. | ||
| I mean, you can put a bit more peanut butter if you want. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, I'm just going to show... | |
| Three tablespoons... | ||
| So can you just... | ||
| Three and a half tablespoons of peanut butter and two pieces of bread. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| I'm going to show you how... | ||
| I'm going to show you... | ||
| I'm going to back up what I said in the film. | ||
| So let's just go through the slides quickly, if that's okay. | ||
| So slide five... | ||
| And apologies to all the listeners who don't get to see all my slides. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's okay. | |
| Tell them to go to YouTube. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Here we go. | ||
| So, this is USDA. So, I don't know where you get the numbers from, but I went to the USDA site. | ||
| Unfortunately, it changed in October, so it's not quite the same as when we were making the film. | ||
| But anyway, one slice of bread, five grams of protein. | ||
| And you accepted that, right? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mm-hmm. | |
| Okay, good. | ||
| Peanut butter, two tablespoons, eight grams. | ||
| You accepted that? | ||
| You accepted that two tablespoons of peanut butter has eight grams? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Okay, we could have more. | ||
| I have more, but whatever. | ||
| Okay, here we go. | ||
| So you agree that 18 grams of protein for the peanut butter? | ||
| That's the sandwich we showed in the film, whole wheat bread, peanut butter. | ||
| Okay, so the next slide. | ||
| And again, I'm being very conservative on this, like in the amounts. | ||
| So now we look at lentils, one cup, 17.9 grams of protein. | ||
| That is USDA again. | ||
| Would you accept that? | ||
| Yeah, I haven't looked at this, but... | ||
| I accept USDA as a source. | ||
| Okay, good. | ||
| But you accept USDA when it comes to this, but not in terms of the recommendations? | ||
| We're talking about... | ||
| Yeah, if we're talking about quantity of... | ||
| Okay, cool. | ||
| So we're on the same page. | ||
| This is something that's been clearly measured. | ||
| This is not something like recommendations. | ||
| No, okay, sure. | ||
| But we're on the same page. | ||
| We're taking this as a source. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| Okay, so now if we go to slide nine. | ||
| Sorry, the one that you just had. | ||
| The one with the eggs, Jamie. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| There we go. | ||
| So three eggs, 18 grams of protein. | ||
| Would you say so far we've got about as much protein? | ||
| In the peanut butter sandwich, with two tablespoons, not the five that you claim. | ||
| It's less. | ||
| I mean, 18 is not 24. No, no, no, I'm getting to the beef. | ||
| I'm saying, so far what I have presented, just the two tablespoons of peanut butter, and it came to 18. I was really conservative, right? | ||
| I could have put more peanut butter, I could have had bread that had more, like the one, I don't want to name the brand, but it's like six grams. | ||
| But you'd admit that you can get bread that's got six grams of protein. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Okay, so I'm being really conservative, just to sort of prove a point. | ||
| So far, we've had a peanut butter sandwich with only two tablespoons of peanut butter. | ||
| Seriously, try that at home, Joe. | ||
| Actually measure it with a measuring. | ||
| Yeah, well, I talked about it in the podcast. | ||
| I would probably have about five. | ||
| Okay, so... | ||
| Anyway, I probably would, too. | ||
| Three large eggs. | ||
| Three large eggs. | ||
| Okay, so now we go to organic. | ||
| This is organic ground beef. | ||
| Standard organic ground beef. | ||
| Three ounces. | ||
| So three ounces is 17.5 grams. | ||
| If you want to... | ||
| If you want to get into it, we can get into it. | ||
| Because it's per 100 grams, so I can... | ||
| What's the fat percentage? | ||
| 9.2 grams. | ||
| So it's half fat? | ||
| No, sorry. | ||
| It's 9.2 grams per 100 grams. | ||
| See, we had to do the calculation. | ||
| Oh. | ||
| But that... | ||
| Okay. | ||
| But this is the regular organic ground beef. | ||
| So it's in the neighborhood of... | ||
| And then, to be fair, because I knew you'd bring up a grass-fed beef, so that I found the lowest and the highest. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Okay, so go to grass-fed beef, slide 11. Three ounces. | ||
| This is on the very low end, so this would probably be the fattiest meat. | ||
| But you wouldn't be against animal fat, right? | ||
| Not typically. | ||
| Depends on the person and their situation. | ||
| But we're just talking about protein here anyway. | ||
| So lowest, 14.4. | ||
| On the highest end... | ||
| I actually think my number... | ||
| 18 grams. | ||
| Okay, so peanut butter sandwich, 18 grams. | ||
| Lentils, 17.9. | ||
| Can we round that up? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Three eggs, 18 grams. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| Three ounces of beef, 18 grams at best. | ||
| Right, when I looked up grass-fed beef. | ||
| So it's essentially saying exactly what you said. | ||
| I'm not saying if you go with 90% lean, you can have more protein. | ||
| No doubt. | ||
| So you can find protein that's got higher. | ||
| I said about... | ||
| I was trying to show... | ||
| Dispel the myth... | ||
| That you... | ||
| You know... | ||
| Plants have no protein... | ||
| And animal foods have all this protein. | ||
| So I've just shown you there... | ||
| Now your second point... | ||
| Was that... | ||
| The problem with... | ||
| His second point was... | ||
| The problem with a peanut butter sandwich... | ||
| To get 18 grams of protein... | ||
| I think this is a fair point... | ||
| You would have to eat 410 calories... | ||
| It was actually the more important point because I'm not necessarily, you know, that may not be a problem for somebody who's training. | ||
| No, no, no, but I just want to talk about the DS score. | ||
| No, I know, but can we just do quantity? | ||
| Can we finish quantity first? | ||
| So can you bring up slide 15? | ||
| So you'd admit that you can get a decent amount of protein. | ||
| Your argument was you can get, like, percentage. | ||
| So, slide 15, the lentils for 18 grams of protein. | ||
| Again, if you want to check this calculation, stop at any time, I'm fine. | ||
| I have had this triple checked. | ||
| Okay, 18 grams of protein, 231 calories. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay? | |
| Because you like point... | ||
| I love that people like to point out the beef and then the peanut butter sandwich and try and compare those. | ||
| Even though we were right on the protein, now you're trying to pick on the calories. | ||
| So, you didn't pick the lentils, which have 231 calories. | ||
| The next one, slide 16, has... | ||
| Which is about the same for beef. | ||
| Which is about 210 calories. | ||
| Grass-fed beef in the first instance, slide 17... | ||
| 275 calories, and that was on the one that wasn't so lean, and 70% lean beef, and I'm just pointing out there's different ranges, 417 calories for 18 grams of protein, right? | ||
| So fatty meat, which you don't think fat, like the animal fat is bad, right? | ||
| No. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| He's talking about the protein percentage. | ||
| There was more protein percentage-wise in my peanut butter sandwich than there was in the green beef. | ||
| And then the last, no, not the last one. | ||
| Yeah, we could have picked something with less calories. | ||
| So if we pick tempeh, for example, slide 19, 170 calories. | ||
| So again, would you say... | ||
| But I think his argument was... | ||
| The argument was the quality of the protein. | ||
| No, no, no, no. | ||
| There was two arguments. | ||
| Yeah, the part of it was you would have to consume more calories. | ||
| Okay, but just before... | ||
| Can I just prove it at one point? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So the first part was you can't... | ||
| There's nowhere near as much protein. | ||
| And then there was like, oh, it's based on the calories. | ||
| So the percentage of protein isn't good. | ||
| You would have to have more calories to get the same amount of protein. | ||
| Which is not true. | ||
| You don't have to. | ||
| You don't have to. | ||
| Okay, so we made a mistake again. | ||
| That was not a central part of my argument. | ||
| No, but it was a part of it. | ||
| It was quantity and quality. | ||
| Yeah, it was quantity and quality. | ||
| And the quantity was broken down into two things. | ||
| You just can't get as much in that serving. | ||
| They're totally wrong. | ||
| You'd have to have five tablespoons of peanut butter. | ||
| Totally wrong. | ||
| Agree? | ||
| I agree that you don't have to have five tablespoons. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right, thank you. | |
| Okay, and then you also said that you'd have to have so many calories that you couldn't get it, and you were wrong again. | ||
| Agree? | ||
| For the peanut butter sandwich or just in general? | ||
| Just in general, from plant foods. | ||
| Yeah, I agree that you don't need to have 600 calories of lentils to get that much protein. | ||
| So can we get slide 20, sweet potato and leek omelette from Chris's site? | ||
| Where the protein is coming. | ||
| So this is from your site, 18 grams of protein, 410 calories. | ||
| The funny thing is, I typed in recipes, and I think this was either first or second came up. | ||
| All I do is pick the first two high-protein recipes from your site, because I didn't pick the soup or the salad because I thought it would be unfair, so I picked the first couple. | ||
| So sweet potato and leek omelette, the protein coming from eggs, 18 grams of protein, 410 calories. | ||
| Do you have an issue with your own meal? | ||
| No. | ||
| So do you have an issue with the peanut butter sandwich having 410 calories? | ||
| No. | ||
| Okay, second one. | ||
| Like I said, that wasn't central to my point. | ||
| The point is, it's harder to get the same quantity and quality, the DS score. | ||
| We'll get to the DS score in a minute, and I will show that you were wrong again. | ||
| So, taro and bacon hash, slide 21. 18 grams of protein, 570 calories. | ||
| If you want to go to your breakfast of champions, which I thought, you know, for athletes, slide 22. And by the way, I took your data. | ||
| I didn't take USDA. I assumed that you were not lying. | ||
| So I took the totals from the bottom, but I standardized it for 18 grams of protein because we're just comparing everything percentage-wise. | ||
| 688 calories. | ||
| Do you think that people should not eat that meal? | ||
| It depends on who you're talking about. | ||
| It's low protein, right? | ||
| I don't think that people shouldn't eat it. | ||
| Is it low protein? | ||
| You can't rely on that for your protein. | ||
| So first of all, it's low protein by most people's standards, but your standards of protein are much higher. | ||
| So that would be far off. | ||
| So that would mean to make up for the rest of the day, you would have to have meals that were like almost just protein, or maybe they'd have to buy the protein powder from your website. | ||
| In order to make that up. | ||
| Anyway, so let's move on to now the, and by the way, slide 23, largest study I've ever done comparing completely plant-based eaters with, like, study showing plant eaters versus meat eaters. | ||
| 75 grams a day? | ||
| That was the average. | ||
| Aren't you supposed to have one gram per body weight, per pound of body weight? | ||
| No. | ||
| You're not? | ||
| That's at the upper end for athletes. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| It's 0.8 grams. | ||
| It's 0.8 grams. | ||
| This is how much they were actually getting in the largest study ever done comparing plant-based eaters. | ||
| So you can see it's about the same. | ||
| And actually, per pound of lean body mass, fat-free mass, the vegans were getting slightly more because they had better body mass index. | ||
| They were slightly leaner. | ||
| But anyway, I just want to say it's roughly similar. | ||
| So your next argument was that athletes need more protein. | ||
| It wasn't an argument because you admitted that I pointed it out in the show. | ||
| So if you go to slide 24... | ||
| I just want to point to point about the amount that we're actually requiring. | ||
| Okay, we're going into the amount now. | ||
| We're in amount for athletes, because his point is maybe you can get enough to survive, but not to be an athlete. | ||
| I don't think that was his point. | ||
| I think his point was that there's a different requirement for athletes. | ||
| Yeah, there's a different question. | ||
| We weren't arguing on this point. | ||
| Your point is you need more. | ||
| His recommendations, though, what he does is he pushes them to a really high end that isn't consensus, then trying to make it out that it'd be harder to get, which we've already shown you can get enough protein. | ||
| Of course, an athlete eats more calories, therefore they get more protein as a percentage. | ||
| So I just wanted to show two positions on this, and then we can see if you, again, you don't agree with the consensus of science. | ||
| So this is the joint position paper of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the Dietitians of Canada, and the American College of Sports Medicine. | ||
| So this is for athletes, okay? | ||
| This is just one. | ||
| I'm going to show you another in a second. | ||
| Do you want to read it out, Joe? | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Current data suggests that dietary protein intake necessary to support metabolic adaptation, repair, remodeling, and for protein turnover generally ranges from 1.2 to 2.0 grams or kilograms per day. | ||
| Okay, and then the next slide, Jamie, if you could bring up slide 25. I agree with that and have it in my notes. | ||
| Yeah, okay. | ||
| I just want to make sure we're on the same page. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Protein supplementation beyond a total daily protein intake of 1.2 grams, kilograms a day. | ||
| Wait, wait, wait. | ||
| Is it the wrong one? | ||
| Where are you reading that? | ||
| From the big square. | ||
| You said 1.2? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, I said 1.6, didn't I? No, you said 1.2 to 2 grams. | |
| You read the thing from the last thing you were looking at. | ||
|
unidentified
|
How did I do that? | |
| Did I really do that? | ||
| That's pretty genius. | ||
| That doesn't make any sense. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| This is what was in front of me, right? | ||
| Can you read it again? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Oh, okay. | ||
| I thought I read 1.6. | ||
| I didn't? | ||
| That's what you heard? | ||
| You heard 1.6? | ||
| Oh, maybe. | ||
| I thought you said 1.2 to 2. No worries. | ||
| Either way. | ||
| No worries. | ||
| Protein supplementation beyond a total daily protein intake of 1.6. | ||
| The squiggle means about. | ||
| Oh, okay. | ||
| About 1.6 grams, kilograms a day during RET. That's resistance exercise training. | ||
| Training provided no further benefit on gains in muscle mass or strength. | ||
| And these are like really highly... | ||
| And if you look at the... | ||
| So a gram per kilogram. | ||
| A kilogram is two pounds of body weight. | ||
| 2.2. | ||
| 2.2. | ||
| So we're 1.6 grams. | ||
| So it's less than one gram. | ||
| It's 0.727272 grams per pound. | ||
| So you're looking at about three quarters of a gram per pound recommended. | ||
| Anything over that provided no gain. | ||
| I want to clarify. | ||
| So you can see the... | ||
| The two-phase breakpoint analysis on the top right, this chart. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Okay, so you can see as the chart goes up and then it flattens out. | ||
| There was no further gains in fat-free mass, which is the y-axis, after 1.6. | ||
| However, there's something called a confidence interval. | ||
| Like, how confident are they that these findings are correct? | ||
| And it was a very wide confidence interval. | ||
| So it actually took it, there was 6 grams either side. | ||
| So it was actually up to 2.2 and down as low as 1. So it's 1 to 2.2. | ||
| The other one, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics and the Academy of Sportsmen, is 1.2 to 2. So the widest range is 1 to 2.2. | ||
| So you think that this recommendation that's a standard thing that you hear in a gym, one gram per pound, it's probably just... | ||
| No, that's legit. | ||
| That's legit at the upper end. | ||
| So 2.2 grams. | ||
| On the upper end, the 2.2 grams per... | ||
| Per kilogram of body weight per day is one gram per pound of body weight. | ||
| So no doubt, and this is what you're talking about, certain athletes like bodybuilders, strength athletes, but the competency of all means to apply to everybody. | ||
| Some people could actually build, and this is about optimally building muscle as fast as possible, and some people could do it at one gram, some people might 2.2, but like regularly it looked like 1.6, 1.8, like the scientific consensus of that, and you said that you agree with these ranges. | ||
| Yeah, and there's some evidence suggesting that higher amounts may be beneficial. | ||
| So if you go to, or Jamie, if you search for examine.com, how much protein do you need? | ||
| There's an article there, and examine.com is a, do you know about them? | ||
| I know who they are. | ||
| A panel of scientists, or a group of scientists. | ||
| A group of scientists, right, right. | ||
| Not the American College of Sports Medicine. | ||
| It's Canadian, right? | ||
| Indicator Amino Acid Oxidation Method, which is newer. | ||
| If you scroll down, Jamie, to the optimal daily protein intake for athletes and similarly active adults, or if you just click on that... | ||
| You see in that paragraph, IAO studies and athletes found different numbers because four of the 49 studies in the meta-analysis that had that lower range were conducted in people with resistance training experience. | ||
| The other 45 were newbies. | ||
| IAO studies found different numbers. | ||
| Female athletes required 1.4 to 1.7. | ||
| Male endurance, 2.1 to 2.7. | ||
| Amateur male bodybuilders, 1.7 to 2.2. | ||
| But this seems the same. | ||
| It says the average amount of protein required to maximize lean mass is about 1.6 grams per kilogram. | ||
| It's the same exact measurement. | ||
| We don't even need to argue it. | ||
| It's totally accepted. | ||
| In the sports world, whatever. | ||
| It also says some people need upwards of 2.2 grams per kilogram for those interested in comprehensive breakdown. | ||
| It provides another link. | ||
| I don't think we're far off. | ||
| We're not far off on this. | ||
| It says regular training male endurance athletes require 2.1 to 2.7 grams per kilogram, so that's the high range. | ||
| Yeah, and you did say something about 2.3 to 3.3 in one study you pointed out. | ||
| That doesn't actually help you build more muscle mass, but if you're trying to lean out... | ||
| And also, I think some of the studies that you've looked at, like there's one at 2.3, I've actually got it on my... | ||
| Computer I don't have in my slides, but there's one at 2.1 to 3.3. | ||
| There's two things about that. | ||
| One, it's when you're in a caloric deficit. | ||
| Because of gluconeogenesis, you pull some of the protein and you use some of the energy, so there's less protein, less for building. | ||
| So if you're a bodybuilder cutting for competition, trying to get down to like 4 or 5%, then your protein requirements go up above that normal range because you're in caloric deficit. | ||
| You're using some of it for fuel. | ||
| And that's also the case with those carnivore people and a lot of keto people as well, right? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Yeah, and they probably adapt some, because like in normal people, you can actually only, during exercise, you can only get 10% of your energy from the oxidation of protein into glucose. | ||
| But, so, the, where are we going? | ||
| So, but the 2.3 to 3.1, by the way, it's one in caloric deficit, and it's two based on fat-free mass qualifications. | ||
| It's not based on total body weight, which is what all the recommendations are on. | ||
| So, the 2.3 to 3.1 in some of these studies, if you did like, okay, if someone was 15% body fat, it would bring it down. | ||
| It It wouldn't be 2.3 to 3.1. | ||
| It's 3.1 based on the lean body mass. | ||
| So if you're 200 pounds and you've got 20% body fat, you only weigh 160 pounds for this calculation. | ||
| Got it. | ||
| Anyway, where we are? | ||
| So you like to talk about the IAO in terms of these recommendations. | ||
| And if you look at slide 102, Jamie, how am I doing, by the way, defending the film? | ||
| Excellent. | ||
| You're really doing really well. | ||
| Good. | ||
| Not bad for a dumb old UFC fighter, right? | ||
| You're not that old. | ||
| 41. Going great. | ||
| Look what I did. | ||
| Look what I did to the top of my head this morning. | ||
| I cut it. | ||
| I just started, the last couple of months, I started shaving it with the... | ||
| How much protein can the body use in a single meal for muscle building? | ||
| Implications for daily protein distribution showed upward of C1 of 2.2 grams per kilograms a day in cohort of young male bodybuilders. | ||
| Although the method of assessment indicator amino acid oxidation technique used in this study has not received universal acceptance for determining optimal protein requirements. | ||
| So it's in that same range. | ||
| A couple of things. | ||
| I'm not trying to point out that your IAO is off. | ||
| I'm saying if you want to take your IAO, the indicator amino acid oxidation index, if you want to use that, then the upper confidence level is still 2.2. | ||
| So the scientific consensus, I just want to make it very clear, that you threw out a bunch of these numbers on high protein, making out that vegans couldn't hit that level. | ||
| First of all, I've shown that foods can get that. | ||
| I've shown that vegans can get sufficient protein. | ||
| And I've shown the scientific consensus on the protein ranges for athletes are not in scientific consensus with these 3.3. | ||
| But even if there were, there's no reason you couldn't get it on a plant-based diet. | ||
| I didn't argue that everyone should be eating 3.3 grams per kilogram. | ||
| No, but you did argue that vegans couldn't get enough protein, and you were wrong. | ||
| I didn't say they couldn't get enough. | ||
| I said that it's less likely that they will get enough. | ||
| No, but it's not, though. | ||
| If they eat some of those recipes on your website, they'd be getting less. | ||
| So you're being disingenuous, Chris. | ||
| Well, the first recipe, that was sweet potatoes, right? | ||
| Was it? | ||
| No, it had eggs in it. | ||
| The second one. | ||
| No, it was a sweet potato and leek omelette. | ||
| It was a taro and bacon hash, and then it was breakfast of champions with milk, yogurt, and eggs. | ||
| So, all I'm saying is, people that watched the last episode, where he was bashing the film, people walked away thinking, you can't get enough protein. | ||
| And then they thought, the quality's not good enough. | ||
| And now we can get into that. | ||
| Let's get into that. | ||
| Let's get into that. | ||
| Because this is the crux of it, right? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| It's like... | ||
| You can get all these nutrients. | ||
| First of all, B12 is an argument. | ||
| Smash that. | ||
| Protein is the next argument. | ||
| I've just smashed the protein quantity argument, and now we'll get into the quality. | ||
| We certainly smashed the protein quantity versus caloric intake. | ||
| Right, and so it's fair to say, is it fair to say, that based on what I've presented, you can get about as much protein from the things that I said. | ||
| Well, based on what you presented, you haven't lost an argument yet. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you. | |
| There's not one thing that you've said that's incorrect. | ||
| And I even agree, if you're going to eat some meat, it should be some elk that you went and hunted yourself. | ||
| So, let's get into the amino acid content. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, yeah. | |
| Love this. | ||
| I was really researching for this. | ||
| I really enjoyed it. | ||
| Because there were so many flaws that I was just like... | ||
| I was a truth seeker, right? | ||
| So I went for the search for the truth in combat. | ||
| Bruce Lee would say, research your own experience, absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is specifically your own. | ||
| I don't care about all the George Dillman BS about you can knock people out. | ||
| I don't care about that. | ||
| I don't care about all these traditional styles of martial arts. | ||
| I care about what is the truth. | ||
| Before I did this, you know, I thought, oh yeah, paleo diet makes sense. | ||
| I actually switched to grass-fed beef because of the omega-6 to omega-3 ratios. | ||
| I started eating air-chilled chicken. | ||
| But then I read the research, and I wasn't biased by, like, anything other than finding out the truth between the optimal diet for health and athletic performance and recovery of my injuries. | ||
| And that is the truth, and that is what I have done. | ||
| And now we're going to expose how you were incorrect about the protein quality. | ||
| So you said, what's a little disingenuous about the film, they said every plant has every amino acid. | ||
| Well, yeah, nobody disagrees with that. | ||
| But it does have, does it have enough of each of them? | ||
| Well, first of all, people do disagree with that. | ||
| Like, if you want to search, you know, plants have missing amino acids, people think that it's missing some of the 9% amino acids. | ||
| So that's why we put that in the film, okay? | ||
| And we did, and I said, you left off part of my quote. | ||
| I said, every plant... | ||
| Has every amino acid. | ||
| That's what you said. | ||
| But you left off the end of my quote, which said, every plant has every amino acid in varying proportions. | ||
| That is what I said. | ||
| And you left out the in varying proportions, which again, I think is disingenuous. | ||
| He did not complete my quote. | ||
| You handpicked part of my quote to represent your view. | ||
| So people, number one, do think that plants are completely... | ||
| A lot of people think, just like, you know, there's articles saying, well, no one thinks that protein gives them energy. | ||
| I've got five studies here, the only five studies that I could find, on the knowledge of collegiate athletes, and around 50% in each of the studies think that protein is what gives you energy. | ||
| So people were saying, like, why did you put that in the film? | ||
| That's a straw man. | ||
| People don't think that protein gives you energy. | ||
| About 50% of collegiate athletes think that protein gives you energy. | ||
| That's why I addressed it in the film. | ||
| Anyway. | ||
| Back to, you like the DIAAS, right? | ||
| The Digestible Indispensable Amino Acid Score. | ||
| Or the PDCAAS, which preceded it. | ||
| Yeah, either of those, right? | ||
| So, can you just mention why you like it and, you know, what the benefits are and how it's determined? | ||
| How is it determined? | ||
| So, the DIAAS takes into consideration amino acid profile and bioavailability, whereas the PCAAS did not take into consideration bioavailability. | ||
| Right, it looks at crude protein, it looks at the total amount of protein absorption, not the individual amino acids, because different individual amino acids absorb differently, so that was one of the benefits of the DS scoring. | ||
| We call it DS and PD-CAS or whatever. | ||
| But how is it determined? | ||
| Chris? | ||
| Do you know how it's determined? | ||
| The DS? I don't know the details. | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| It's almost like comedy. | ||
| That someone is talking about these systems that does not know how... | ||
| Okay, so slide 27. And I'll tell you one of the benefits of the DIAS. And I think you might have mentioned this, so I think you might know more than you're letting on. | ||
| So one of the benefits is the oro-ileal digestibility. | ||
| So the PDCAAS, right, that took the whole digestive tract to what came out of the end. | ||
| What are we looking at here? | ||
| So this is how the DIAS is brought about. | ||
| So... | ||
| Basically, past the ileum, you can't digest, your body doesn't absorb the protein, really. | ||
| It's digested by the bacteria, right? | ||
| So this is one of the benefits of the DIAS versus the PDCAAS, right? | ||
| The old system, is that they saw how much protein went through the whole digestive tract, but that wasn't reasonable, right? | ||
| Because... | ||
| Past the ileum, you're not digesting the protein, the bacteria digesting it, and you're not getting it. | ||
| Does that make sense? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| So basically, they put a pore in the pig. | ||
| Now, PDC-AS was mostly in rats, and this is done in rats, and there's some in humans, but it's mostly done in pigs, because it's a more similar digestibility to humans. | ||
| And they're basically assessing how much of that protein was absorbed, right? | ||
| And how much of the amino acids were absorbed. | ||
| Now, some people make the argument, even the FAO point out the flaws, some people make the argument, well, pigs have a different digestibility rate, which is true, and they have a different amino acid profile requirement. | ||
| Different. | ||
| So some people would say, therefore, DAS, bunch of crap. | ||
| Right? | ||
| I'm not going to make that argument. | ||
| Even though it's tested in animals, primarily not in humans, they've got a different amino acid requirement and different digestibility capability. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| So, I mean, would you think that that score is the best one to use for humans? | ||
| It doesn't make sense. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| But I'm not going to even make that argument. | ||
| I'm going to go with you and say, okay, DS is the best thing out there. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| So even though you can question it. | ||
| So... | ||
| You've said... | ||
| This is a quote from last time when you were trying to bash the film. | ||
| It's all about protein quality, and this, as you said, is an established science, a firmly established science. | ||
| He was talking to you, obviously, and you must have said it was established. | ||
| They look at this, especially in, like, third-world countries where protein deficiency is common, so they try to figure out how to address this. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| Now, the FAO, the Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations, what is their purpose? | ||
| Chris? | ||
| I've got a slide if you want to prove, but it's basically defeating hunger, providing food security, not for America or for England, but for more than 130 countries where people are starving, malnutrition. | ||
| That is their purpose. | ||
| So you've got to look at it through the lens of that. | ||
| If you can just put up slide 29, because I just want to really back these claims up. | ||
| I know the slides are getting kind of boring, and I again apologize for people just listening. | ||
| Research focusing on protein malnutrition was largely conducted after the identification of... | ||
| Quashior core. | ||
| Quashior core. | ||
| And the realization that many children globally are suffering from subclinical protein malnutrition. | ||
| To address protein malnutrition, the composition and digestibility of proteins must be determined. | ||
| Okay, so we go to the next slide. | ||
| And this is, by the way, that was looking at the DS score. | ||
| You know, you can see at the top. | ||
| Can the DS score decrease protein malnutrition? | ||
| Then they go on to say... | ||
| The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations has developed methods to evaluate the protein quality of food items, and in 2011, the Digestible Indispensable Amino Acid Score, D-I-A-A-S, was recommended as a successor to their previous method. | ||
| Okay, so we're not in a disagreement right now. | ||
| I'm even going to forego, like, I'm not going to argue about the animal having different amino acid requirements, even though that's, like, that's pretty funny, right? | ||
| Like, why are you assessing? | ||
| Anyway, so I'm not going to have that argument. | ||
| What I'm going to have is I'm going to go with everything so far, FAO, they're endorsing it over the PDS, a lot of experts endorsing it over the DIAS, over the PDCAS. Okay. | ||
| So now in slide 31, it's made for starving children, okay? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mm-hmm. | |
| This is what it's made for. | ||
| So I would agree, if you're in a caloric deficit, and you're in a country where there's very little protein, and you're only getting 30 grams of protein a day, let's just say that the animal, like, take the animal stuff out of it, and, like, the way that the method is flawed, which the FAO points out. | ||
| But let's just say it's legit. | ||
| I would agree. | ||
| I would say, eat, get your protein from meat. | ||
| I would agree. | ||
| Because that's what it was designed for. | ||
| As you can see, In looking at post-exercise skeletal muscle, the DIAS does not attempt to consider how scores translate into optimizing more downstream physiological targets of interest to a physically active person or athlete. | ||
| So it wasn't designed for that system. | ||
| It was designed for starving people in countries where they were not getting enough protein and they weren't getting enough protein, as you would call, high quality. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| So... | ||
| So would you recognize that it wasn't developed for that system? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Based on the scientific literature. | ||
| But you're inferring it now for the amount that... | ||
| I still think it's a relevant measure of protein quality because it looks at amino acid profile and ileal digestibility. | ||
| Yeah, it is. | ||
| It is. | ||
| In starving countries when people are starving. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| But as you can see, this is not my opinion. | ||
| It's still looking at amino acid profile, right? | ||
| You can see that. | ||
| It's looking at the relative content of amino acids in a particular food. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And it's looking at the ileal digestibility. | ||
| Which I think is an improvement. | ||
| I think it's got elements, even though the FAOs point out its flaws, and 10 years from now, we'll have a better system, right? | ||
| But, right, would you agree? | ||
| Probably 10 years from now, we'll probably have a better system. | ||
| I would imagine. | ||
| Okay, but it's the best that it can kind of go of, but again, it looks at, and it's not just my opinion that it's not used for that. | ||
| This is like, in sports medicine, 2019, and I agree, you're busy with other stuff, you probably haven't seen this article that came out in February. | ||
| Have you seen this article before? | ||
| I have not seen this particular article. | ||
| So basically, can you look at the... | ||
| Now, in the 2018 Journal of International Sports Nutrition, slide 32, Society of Sports Nutrition, Because you like to say it's all about muscle protein synthesis, right? | ||
| That's an important factor. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| It has been proposed that muscle protein synthesis is maximized in young adults with an intake of 20-25 grams of high-quality protein. | ||
| About? | ||
| About 20-25 grams of a high-quality protein. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| Do you disagree that like eating four or five times a day at 20 to 25 grams of high quality protein, whatever you want to take, high score, whatever, under the scoring system you agree with, do you agree that that is the amount to maximize muscle protein when it shows that that does for a four hour window, acute muscle protein is this? | ||
| Yeah, most of the sports organizations suggest that for acute protein intake. | ||
| Now, again, I'm going with the consensus. | ||
| So if you take that 20 to 25 grams four or five times a day, multiply that, what is that? | ||
| That's 80 to about 120 grams of protein a day. | ||
| Is that enough for a big athlete? | ||
| Is that enough for a 250-pound athlete? | ||
| I would say no. | ||
| So I'm not saying that it is. | ||
| I think you need more protein than that. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Because muscle protein synthesis is only one factor. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| Can you tell me what the other factors are? | ||
| Tissue regeneration and repair, recovery. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So I think we're on the same page that 20-25 grams has basically been shown in a single sitting over a four-hour window in what we call acute, short-term. | ||
| That's been shown to maximize muscle proteins in this. | ||
| And that is because 20 grams, and it's been shown actually you can get less with like egg, you could get like 17 grams or something. | ||
| Because basically you're hitting two things. | ||
| You're hitting leucine. | ||
| You're getting 1.82 grams of leucine. | ||
| Which is basically like a foreman, right? | ||
| It's like telling the others, like, hey, you should build protein. | ||
| If you don't have any leucine, even if you had all the essential amino acids you want except for leucine, you wouldn't have the foreman telling all the workers to, like, build the muscle, basically. | ||
| That's what leucine is. | ||
| So you're getting enough leucine, and you're getting 8 to 10 grams of essential amino acids. | ||
| That is what is important in the acute stage of muscle proteins instance. | ||
| You're getting 8 to 10 grams of... | ||
| And we can get more granular, like it's, you know, 0.0 grams per pound of body weight. | ||
| But this is basically accepted. | ||
| And in fact, they've shown that, like, even if you're 400 pounds, you know, you probably don't need even more than 20-25 grams. | ||
| For some reason, there's something in that number about getting the leucine amount. | ||
| It doesn't really matter how big you are. | ||
| You know, there's a small percentage of people that say you might need a bit more, 2.5 or whatever, but consensus is this 20-25 grams. | ||
| And I'm sorry this is, like, long, but it's important to, like, break down. | ||
| Okay? | ||
|
unidentified
|
So... | |
| So, by the way, just going back to your DS scoring, you're basically looking at, like, rules for Jiu Jitsu tournament, like a Gi Jiu Jitsu tournament, and you're trying to apply them to MMA. So, just because Jiu Jitsu is involved in MMA, it doesn't mean that a scoring system for, like, IBJJF or whatever, that doesn't mean that that's the best scoring system for MMA, right? | ||
| Is that fair, Joe? | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Yeah, you could get points for, like... | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Whatever, okay. | ||
| So, essentially, and this isn't just my opinion, okay? | ||
| This is scientific literature, not an article that you just pulled on on examine.com. | ||
| That's not how science works. | ||
| You don't just pull up an article. | ||
| So, slide 33. And it's very clear. | ||
| This is just very obvious. | ||
| It's not... | ||
| It can't... | ||
| It cannot just be about short-term acute muscle protein synthesis, right? | ||
| It can't be. | ||
| Because you wouldn't be hitting the 1.6 to 2.2. | ||
| So, this states... | ||
| Acute anabolic responses are not necessarily associated with long-term muscular gains. | ||
| The topic can only be answered by assessing the results of long-digital studies that directly measure changes in lean mass with the provision of varying protein dosages. | ||
| Okay, so you agree that it's not just about short-term muscle processes. | ||
| Okay, so what it is, Joe, it doesn't matter. | ||
| At a certain point, it doesn't matter because, yeah, let's say you're going to have four times a day, and let's say you're going to have 160 grams of protein, and you have 40 grams, right, of protein four times a day, that's 160 grams. | ||
| So if you're going to optimize muscle mass, and by the way, how much muscle have you put on in the last 15 years? | ||
| No, I'm not sure. | ||
| I put on none, basically. | ||
| I'm about the same. | ||
| But anyway, let's just say that you're a bodybuilder and you're trying to stack on as much muscle as possible. | ||
| I'm like 190, 193 maybe sometimes. | ||
| If I go over 200, I just feel slow. | ||
| I feel slow with the handgun. | ||
| I just feel slower punching, whatever. | ||
| Not everyone's goal is to optimize muscle mass as quickly as possible. | ||
| But let's say that your goal is. | ||
| Clearly, it's not enough to do that. | ||
| You have to hit the 1.6 to 2.2 grams. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Once you hit that amount, you have to do two things. | ||
| You have to hit the muscle, the short-term leucine threshold and amino acid in the short-term, right? | ||
| And then you have to hit the... | ||
|
unidentified
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What are you doing, Jamie? | |
| So, you have to do two things. | ||
| You have to maximize the muscle processes in the short-term, and you have to get enough protein during the day. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Of 1.6 to 2.2. | ||
| Is that fair? | ||
| Okay, so once you hit the 1.6 to 2.2, let's say you have 40 grams, it doesn't matter. | ||
| You follow me? | ||
| You even quoted... | ||
| So it doesn't matter the amino acid profile of the food? | ||
| Is that what you're saying? | ||
| No, because as long as you hit the essential amino acid amount and the leucine amount in the... | ||
| And you can hit the leucine amount and the amino acid amount in virtually all of these vegan forms of protein? | ||
| Is that what you're saying? | ||
| No. | ||
| First of all, you could do it with like... | ||
| If you do beans, rice, and vegetables, yeah, you'd hit two grams of protein for like 570 calories. | ||
| Now, again, you know that most athletes supplement, right? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| I can have got slides if you want scientific proof, but you would accept that elite athletes do even more. | ||
| So people are supplementing with protein powder anyway. | ||
| They're supplementing with branched-chain amino acids because it contains leucine isolecine. | ||
| Elite athletes are, yes. | ||
| Over 50% are supplementing with protein powder and a higher percentage of elite. | ||
| Athletes? | ||
| Just athletes, period. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And elite athletes are supplementing even more. | ||
| It's probably more like 90%. | ||
| So if your goal is to do something and take creatine or protein, You know, these athletic endeavours, like you pointed out, the thing that Patrick does, and we can get into, by the way, the misrepresentation from Robert O'Hurst into Patrick's records, if you want, because there was a lot of claims that were made that were completely false again. | ||
| So, basically, if you get enough protein, if you hit one of the windows, if you hit the 1.6 to 2.2 with plant protein, you can hit the muscle protein synthesis. | ||
| And like, all of a sudden he's like... | ||
| So you're saying there's no benefit in animal protein for an amino acid profile versus plant protein? | ||
| No, not if you're getting enough protein. | ||
| So you're saying if you're getting enough protein, there's no benefit. | ||
| I'm even talking about... | ||
| And you're getting the right ratio, as you have acknowledged, of the right ratio of plant proteins. | ||
| No, no, no, it's not difficult at all. | ||
| I'm talking about leucine, if you were really messing up and eating like people just don't eat healthy, you might not get enough leucine. | ||
| But if you're planning to become as big and as strong as possible, do you need a specific workout plan? | ||
| But this is only assuming that you're taking supplements, so we're assuming that everyone's taking supplements to achieve... | ||
| No, not at all. | ||
| No, you can do it with supplements. | ||
| Okay, but you're not assuming that people are taking supplements. | ||
| No, you can do it. | ||
| But are you assuming that people are taking supplements? | ||
| No. | ||
| You can do it on a whole food diet, plant-based diet, with B12. Just supplement B12, nothing else. | ||
| You can achieve the same amino acid profile as meat. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, I want to touch on that. | ||
| I'm not saying that the only thing... | ||
| But that is the argument, right? | ||
| That was what you said. | ||
| But I just want to throw people off, like, depending on where you live, you might want to supplement vitamin D based on not getting enough sun. | ||
| I just don't want to throw out... | ||
| Everybody should do that anyway. | ||
| Anyway. | ||
| Particularly D3. Okay, so what I'm saying is, as long as you get that amount of protein, and again, if you're eating... | ||
| If you're exercising to optimally build muscle, you're exercising a fair bit, right? | ||
| You're burning more calories, right? | ||
| So you eat more calories. | ||
| I don't know where my slide is. | ||
| We're deep into the woods here, and this is getting really confusing. | ||
| The question was, and this is what his assertion was, that the amino acid profile of meat is superior than the amino acid profile of meat. | ||
| It is in context. | ||
| It's important when you look at the FAO and the goals that they're doing to try and stop world hunger. | ||
| It is not important in the Western world, number one, and not important if you're an athlete and you're getting between 1.6 to 2.0 grams per kilogram. | ||
| So what you're saying is that as long as you're getting this 1.6 to 2.2 grams per kilogram of protein, whether it's lentils or peanut butter, that you have enough amino acids to achieve the desired results. | ||
| And it's essentially the exact same as if you're hitting that 2.2 grams. | ||
| If you're getting 2.2 grams, it doesn't matter. | ||
| It's irrelevant. | ||
| Do you think that's true? | ||
| If you're getting 2.2 grams of protein and you're doing it and you're not doing it in the way that you said where you're not planning it and not making sure you're getting enough leucine, which is low... | ||
| - I wouldn't have to try. - It's low, - Loucine you're saying is low in certain plant - Yeah, I would say loucine is lower in, I agree. | ||
| But there's a certain quantity that you will achieve. | ||
| There's a plateau. | ||
| So it doesn't matter once you've got that amount. | ||
| The other point that you had about protein quality is digestibility. | ||
| So that's the last point that I want to address. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| How am I doing? | ||
| Good. | ||
| Okay, so slide 34. Because you basically claim that, okay, even if there are enough amino acids, you can't digest it as well. | ||
| The more precise data collected so far in humans assessing real specific oral ileal nitrogen digestibility has shown that the differences in the digestibility between plant and animal protein sources are only a few percent contrary to historical findings in rats or determinations using less precise methods in humans. | ||
| Okay, and just so you know, I understand that you haven't seen this, probably, because it just came out last month published by Stanford. | ||
| So I get that you haven't seen it. | ||
| Now, I'll take this one step further. | ||
| There's only at most like 2 or 3% different in digestive plant protein. | ||
| And you know how it's assessed in the pigs? | ||
| They give them raw food. | ||
| So they give raw beans... | ||
| Raw grains. | ||
| And you have said one of the reasons that it's less digestible is because of trypsin inhibitors. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And what happens when you cook? | ||
| You definitely break them down. | ||
| Are you getting it? | ||
| So, when you heat food, the likelihood is, even though it hasn't been tested, we know that the digestibility is less in plants by a few percent. | ||
| Only a few percent. | ||
| Not the 40% versus 100% that he was claiming last time. | ||
| That's old science. | ||
| I'm talking about current science. | ||
| Right? | ||
| And there's only a few percent difference and they imagine that not only if you heated it That you would get equivalent. | ||
| You might even get more because you're killing the trypsin inhibitors by heating it. | ||
| So that whole nonsense about the quantity, you were wrong. | ||
| The quality, the DR score was not designed for that. | ||
| It doesn't matter when you get enough protein. | ||
| So as long as you get enough protein, you're using measures for an organization that is looking at hunger. | ||
| We're talking about if people have got enough. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| If you're in a developing country and you have very little diversity of plant foods and maybe not enough and there's some animals, you should be eating the animals. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| But that is not what it was designed for and it doesn't matter. | ||
| The amino acid profile doesn't matter and the digestion doesn't matter when you get enough protein. | ||
| Let me pause you for a second here because you've been going on for a long time. | ||
| Yeah, I think it's really important. | ||
| Amazing points. | ||
| Chris, this has not been that good for your arguments. | ||
| So what are your thoughts on what he said so far and what are your thoughts on what he's refuted about what you had asserted about his show? | ||
| I think he's made some good points. | ||
| And, you know, my original argument and what we started out talking about was, so you take the film and the claims of the film, the specific claims of the film, and then you also take the question that we started talking about, which was, Is there evidence that a 100% plant-based diet is better than a diet that contains animal foods and plant foods? | ||
| You see what you're doing? | ||
| But they're protein. | ||
| I mean, come on. | ||
| And there were a lot of claims in the film that we talked about, about dairy products causing cancer, dairy products contributing to cardiovascular disease, chicken and fish causing cancer. | ||
| Red meat clogging the arteries that we address and haven't had a chance to go into detail on in this show. | ||
| But there was a bunch of stuff that you did say. | ||
| But Joe asked you about protein, and we were talking about protein, and what you just did there is you segued into something else. | ||
| So can you answer definitively, do you think I've presented very good arguments against your rebuttal about both protein quality, including the amount and the ratio, and about protein quality and quantity, including digestibility and amino acid scores? | ||
| I think the protein quantity is still an issue. | ||
| The question of getting... | ||
| But how? | ||
| I mean, you've got to have some logical arguments, Chris. | ||
| I'm sorry, but you're like, I have disproven your rebuttal on protein and on... | ||
| B12! I think the qualities and quantities still matter. | ||
| So even though that scale was developed for the FAO, there's still a difference, a quantitative difference in the amino acid profile and digestibility. | ||
| I didn't argue with that. | ||
| That was not my point. | ||
| But if it's about amino acids and it's about protein content and digestibility, if what he's saying is correct, then there really is no need to eat meat. | ||
| That's what he's saying. | ||
| There isn't. | ||
| There just isn't. | ||
| That is his argument. | ||
| For protein. | ||
| I mean, you can, like, come up with some other, like, we can go at nutrient, if you want to look at nutrient profiles and, like, then we can look at that. | ||
| But you've got to admit I've presented some good arguments in both favor of quantity and quality. | ||
| I do, and I hadn't seen that last study from 2000. And so I just want to sum it up. | ||
| I want to sum it up by slide 30. Just one last slide on this. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Well, I mean, yeah, well, I've got slides proving the outcomes as well, but if you just want to look at it, this is not me. | ||
| This is not me making up, like, oh, I'm a vegan, I'm just making stuff up. | ||
| Like, there's a bunch of bullshit that's put out by vegans about arguments that are totally terrible. | ||
| Agreed, yeah. | ||
| And honestly, I think vegans are, like, the worst people for their own movement. | ||
| I agree as well. | ||
| Like throwing blood on people that are wearing fur jackets or whatever. | ||
| I think it's ridiculous. | ||
| Right? | ||
| But that doesn't... | ||
| Don't lump me in and the film in with vegans in general. | ||
| You've done a far better job of explaining things here than you did even in the film. | ||
| Yeah, but it's very tricky. | ||
| It's very tricky because you don't have that amount of time. | ||
| This is... | ||
| We're three and a half hours in. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Well, I would have made a 10-hour film. | ||
| And it was upsetting. | ||
| I'm sure you would have. | ||
| People say, oh, you... | ||
| For example, a couple of arguments that were made. | ||
| Half of the athletes you filmed, you didn't put in the film because they stopped being vegan. | ||
| Completely not true. | ||
| There were also a bunch of experts we didn't put in the film that we couldn't put in. | ||
| And we didn't put them in because there wasn't room. | ||
| It was like... | ||
| I understand. | ||
| In filmmaking, it's called killing your babies. | ||
| There was amazing scenes that were being really convincing. | ||
| Mm-hmm. | ||
| That we couldn't put in. | ||
| Like, the evidence in the film is far less than 1% of the evidence that I... Why don't you guys do it as, like, a Netflix thing? | ||
| A series? | ||
| Like, Wild Country, where you do, like, seven hours of it. | ||
| No, I would like... | ||
| We're considering doing more. | ||
| It seems like a wiser thing to do, because... | ||
| Yeah, but I think, like, how many people are going to sit down? | ||
| You know how many people are going to watch this? | ||
| Well, I know how many people... | ||
| I mean, I don't know how many people watch the film. | ||
| Millions. | ||
|
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But, yeah. | |
| So, when... | ||
| We're talking about, like, we don't really have that much time left, unfortunately, because we are here at three and a half hours in, and I have another one right after this. | ||
| But what about the film do you think he hasn't refuted your criticisms? | ||
| Can we just put that last slide up? | ||
| Yes, please. | ||
| What is it again? | ||
| Slide 34. And also, I've got a bunch of slides showing that actually... | ||
| Here we go. | ||
| There's no research to suggest that protein recommendations are different for athletes following a vegetarian diet than for those on an omnivorous diet. | ||
| Now, that is the handbook, the textbook that is used when you become a board-certified specialist in sports dietetics. | ||
| So what this is basically saying is what you said earlier. | ||
| The amino acid profile, once you reach a certain point and a certain amount of grams per kilogram. | ||
| And you've got to reach that amount anyway, even with meat. | ||
| That's the thing. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| I gotcha. | ||
| And again... | ||
| What about the film do you think that he hasn't refuted, your criticisms? | ||
| I mean, I would love to do it anyways. | ||
| I don't know how productive that's going to be. | ||
| There's the blood flow and endothelial function and inflammation. | ||
|
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I would love to get to it. | |
| Let's get to that. | ||
| The meat and... | ||
| Let's do it. | ||
| Let's do the erection scene. | ||
| What is the other one? | ||
| The erection. | ||
| That's the most scientific part of the movie. | ||
| What was the other thing, Chris? | ||
| Well, I mean, just talking about inflammation and endothelial function will take the rest of the time. | ||
| Can we take that to endothelial function? | ||
| Cancer and dairy, the chicken and fish and cancer. | ||
| I can refute all of that, all of your claims. | ||
| Do you want to look at the erection and the dolphin scene because they're related to endothelial function? | ||
| Why don't we talk about research about endothelial function? | ||
| Yeah, okay, great. | ||
| That's related. | ||
| Okay, endothelial function. | ||
| We'll close with this. | ||
| It's already 2.30. | ||
| It's just a shame because all the other claims he made were false. | ||
| What other ones were false? | ||
| In the interview, or in the film, when you said, and I've seen you say this on interviews, we have 22 years of research showing that a single high-fat meal impairs endothelial function. | ||
| That study was from 1997. No. | ||
| Multiple studies, and I can put them up if you want. | ||
| So that's 22 years. | ||
| The effect of a single high fat meal on endothelial function in healthy subjects. | ||
| So this compared a 900 calorie diet. | ||
| Both were on 900 calories. | ||
| One group was eating 50 grams of fat and one group was zero grams of fat. | ||
| The high-fat meal was an egg McMuffin, a sausage McMuffin, two hash browns, and a non-caffeinated drink, all from McDonald's. | ||
| Yeah, I'm not talking about this. | ||
| Okay, but that is one study. | ||
| You just picked one. | ||
| Well, which one are you talking about? | ||
| Well, I got a bunch. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Well, I got a bunch that actually contradict that. | ||
| So, the same study, the same researcher that did that study, Found that taking vitamin C and E after the high-fat meal completely eliminated the effect that it had on endothelial function, which suggests that a healthy omnivorous diet with plants wouldn't have the same impact. | ||
| There was a 2019 review, and this will be at kresser.co slash gamechangers.com. | ||
| Adding nuts, avocados, olives, berries, spice blends, orange juice, red wine, and protein, including milk protein, to a high-fat meal prevents endothelial dysfunction and oxidative stress. | ||
| We've got several studies that suggest that dairy and egg proteins improve endothelial function. | ||
| 2015 controlled trial with 52 subjects. | ||
| Dietary proteins, including milk and egg, improved endothelial function. | ||
| 2006 study, adding dietary protein to a high-fat meal, prevented postprandial endothelial dysfunction. | ||
| We have 2009 study, followed subjects for 12 weeks. | ||
| A low-carb diet improved endothelial function, whereas a low-fat diet decreased it. | ||
| 2007 study with... | ||
| Okay, we just... | ||
| I mean, we can go on and on and on. | ||
| He's just rattling on... | ||
| All of these studies show that animal proteins don't decrease endothelial function. | ||
| You have to know more about nutrition. | ||
| Please respond to it. | ||
| So, first of all, you just compared low-carb and high-carb. | ||
| For health, I'm not promoting high-carb or low-carb. | ||
| That wasn't the point. | ||
| The point is that low-carb diets that contain animal products and that milk and egg protein have been shown to improve endothelial function, not worsen it. | ||
| The claim in the film was that animal protein worsens endothelial function. | ||
| Right, because that is the scientific consensus and we keep going back to this, Chris. | ||
| Well, tell us why. | ||
| Tell us why that is. | ||
| Seafood consumption protects against endothelial damage. | ||
| Seafood is an animal protein. | ||
| Mediterranean diet, which includes animal products, improves pulse wave velocity, blood flow, markers of atherosclerosis. | ||
| These are studies in the peer-reviewed literature. | ||
| Lots of them. | ||
| So what's wrong with this? | ||
| So the industry-funded studies, what you do... | ||
|
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Wait, wait. | |
| Who said anything about these being industry-funded? | ||
| No, but what you do... | ||
| Everything is healthy compared to what? | ||
| Healthy or unhealthy compared to what? | ||
| So if you have a low-carb diet and you replace a bunch of white sugar and flour, you might not see... | ||
| The outcome is going to be a decrease. | ||
| But the claim that was made in the film is that animal proteins worsen endothelial function. | ||
| I just listed a whole bunch of studies, especially those suggesting, here's one that says, influence of food patterns on endothelial biomarkers is a systematic review. | ||
| The conclusion was that healthy food patterns, abundant in fruits and vegetables, had a beneficial impact on endothelial function. | ||
| Westernized patterns, higher intakes of processed meats, sweets, fried foods, refined grains were positively associated to influence. | ||
| Which makes my point. | ||
| No, it makes my point, which is quality matters. | ||
| Yeah, quality matters. | ||
| So if you give someone sausage McMuffin and egg McMuffins and you show that... | ||
| I'm not showing that. | ||
| My studies are not showing those. | ||
| Okay, but let's let him explain his studies. | ||
| Okay, so for example, slide 71. I purposely didn't include those studies because I don't think that they're a good thing to compare to. | ||
| So, slide 71... | ||
| Okay, this is nice because there's a graph, right? | ||
| So you can see, so, oh, everyone's saying like that fat in the blood, that's normal. | ||
| Well, what do you mean by normal? | ||
| Yeah, lots of people do that. | ||
| That's normal. | ||
| That doesn't mean it's optimal when you see the fat in the blood like that. | ||
| And by the way, it was a film. | ||
| We couldn't throw everything in. | ||
| So when you see fat, that's called postprandial lipemia. | ||
| That means after a meal, fat in the blood, right? | ||
| That is associated with up to a 50% decreased endothelial function, which means less nitric oxide is produced, which means that the arteries can't open up as much, less oxygen, less nutrients to the muscles, okay? | ||
| So, that is associated. | ||
| As you can see in this graph, I don't know, so the solid line is the triglycerides, this is after the meal, okay, which was, by the way, a shake of whipping cream and liquid chocolate and nonfat dry milk, okay, As you eat the meal, you can see that the triglycerides go up. | ||
| That's the fat in your blood. | ||
| See between two and four hours, it kind of peaks. | ||
| We measured those athletes at two hours. | ||
| And again, this is not just a film. | ||
| It's been done for over 20 years in the scientific literature. | ||
| So as you can see in the graph, right, Joe? | ||
| As the dotted line goes up, that's the appearance of more fat in the blood. | ||
| Right, you get that lactescence, the milkiness of the blood. | ||
| You can see that very clearly that the flow-media dilation drops. | ||
| So it drops by 11%, okay? | ||
| If you look, for example, does that make sense? | ||
| So that when you have those fat in the blood, your ability to, your arteries to expand goes down. | ||
| There's no, like what, that's not an Egg McMuffin. | ||
| That is a milk and whipping cream, and that's it. | ||
| So now if you go to slide 73... | ||
| Now I agree, this had some... | ||
| So they compare... | ||
| Now here... | ||
| Yeah, we can skip to the next one. | ||
| That was 11%. | ||
| Okay, so here what I've done is... | ||
| The only thing I've changed about this graph is I put the green dots for the plant-based meal and the red dots for the animal-based meal. | ||
| So they were eating Korean barbecue, egg, milk, oil, mayonnaise, rice, and vegetables. | ||
| And on the other hand, they were having a vegan meal of soup, kimchi, vegetables, orange juice, apple. | ||
| So it was matched for calories at 800 calories. | ||
| The green is in red, and the, sorry, the green is plants, and the red is animal-based. | ||
| So, I don't know if you want to go into, but basically, I mean, you've slide 74. Again, please try to remember, a lot of people are listening to this. | ||
| Oh, sorry. | ||
| Do you want to read the... | ||
| No, you can if you want. | ||
| Here, changes of serum triglycerides were negatively correlated with changes of FMD. Flow-mediated dilation. | ||
| No doubt. | ||
| Well, low-carb diets often will lower serum triglycerides, and they contain animal protein and fat. | ||
| No, not postprandially. | ||
| Not after the meal, which is important to test, because that lasts for six to eight hours, and what do you do again? | ||
| You eat another animal-based meal. | ||
| So the next part, Joe? | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Then how is it that triglycerides go down over time if someone's just eating? | ||
| Because your body adapts to it. | ||
| So Joe, can you read the second part? | ||
|
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The study suggests that acute HTG... That's hypertriglycemia. | |
| That's the fat in the blood, basically. | ||
| It causes endothelial dysfunction via enhanced oxidant stress and this may pave the way for the development of atherosclerosis. | ||
| It's a mouthful. | ||
| Atherosclerosis. | ||
| Under chronic conditions. | ||
| So what that's saying, acute means short term and chronic is long term. | ||
| Under acute thing, it affects your endothelial function, your ability to exercise and perform, and in the long term affects chronic conditions like heart disease. | ||
| And if you go to slide 75... | ||
| Remember that chart that we looked at with the green dots and the red dots? | ||
| 8.2% decrease in FMD two hours following the animal-based meal. | ||
| 2.7% increase in FMD two hours following the plant-based meal. | ||
| Okay, so you've got less blood flow. | ||
| Chris makes out there's no science, no evidence. | ||
| It was just this crazy thing that they made up. | ||
| It was the co-chair of the Cardiovascular Committee for the NFL that has been researching this for years. | ||
| I didn't say that, James. | ||
| I said there was a lot of other evidence contradicting it. | ||
| So, again, if we want to bring up a study, effects of dietary carbohydrate restriction versus low-fat diet on flow-mediated dilation. | ||
| This is what you've been talking about. | ||
| No, because you're not comparing it to the diet that I'm suggesting. | ||
| After 12 weeks, peak flow-mediated dilation at 3 hours increased from 5.1% to 6.5% in the carbohydrate-restricted group and decreased from 7.9% to 5.2% in the low-fat diet group. | ||
| Right. | ||
| 12-week low-carbohydrate diet improves postprandial vascular function more than a low-fat diet. | ||
| Right, because the low-fat diet has a bunch of... | ||
| Like white flour and stuff in it. | ||
| That's the thing. | ||
| But so there's often the low-carb diets too that are being compared to the diets with animal... | ||
| If we're talking about protein, the claim in the film was that animal protein causes endothelial dysfunction. | ||
| Somehow we've gotten off talking about fat. | ||
| And I've just mentioned many studies that show that dietary proteins, including milk and egg, improve endothelial function. | ||
| No, they don't. | ||
| Okay, there's a study right here. | ||
| Joe, you can't just say a study, right? | ||
| Because Chris can bring up studies that I can't. | ||
| Dietary proteins improve endothelial function under fasting conditions but not in the postprandial state. | ||
| With no effects on markers of low-grade inflammation. | ||
| This is in the British Journal of Nutrition 2015 study. | ||
| Okay, but dietary proteins doesn't even necessarily mean animal-based proteins, right? | ||
| No, it says including milk and egg. | ||
| Including? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| The bottom line is that he can present any study. | ||
| I'd have to dig into it, see the funding, because it's always what it's compared to. | ||
| So you can show a huge benefit for eggs if you compare it to lard. | ||
| These were proteins that included soy. | ||
| Soy, milk and egg. | ||
| And they all improved endothelial function. | ||
| And then another study showing dietary protein, milk or soy. | ||
| To a high-fat meal prevented postprandial endothelial dysfunction. | ||
| And then there are the two low-carb studies that I mentioned. | ||
| There's a controlled trial that found that a low-carb, high-fat diet improved pulse wave velocity, which is another marker of endothelial function. | ||
| There are studies of the Mediterranean diet, which is a healthy diet pattern that includes some animal products, include improved pulse wave velocity. | ||
| Seafood consumption protects against endothelial damage. | ||
| Yes, compared to beef it does. | ||
| Can I just say, for example, you said you were trying to refute the study about the increased risk of colon cancer between vegetarians and non-vegetarians, right? | ||
| The three times increased risk for those who had white meat, like fish or chicken, once or twice a week. | ||
| And then you go to a meta-analysis, which is not comparing... | ||
| You're comparing fish to bacon or beef. | ||
| Of course, compared to that. | ||
| These are controlled trials that look at dietary proteins, milk, soy, and egg. | ||
| But Chris, first of all, you admitted that you don't even know how to read the science. | ||
| Is that fair? | ||
| Do you honestly feel qualified to read even a single paper? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| But you don't know how to read a forest plot. | ||
| I took a master's level research methodology class. | ||
| I'm referring to studies that are in the peer-reviewed literature, James, and you haven't answered the question. | ||
| If protein impairs endothelial function, why are studies showing that milk and egg don't George Dillman did a study showing that the heart rate went up when he did a knockout without touching someone. | ||
| Just because you can show studies that I haven't had a chance to read and dig into doesn't need me that my point is valid. | ||
| The film has been reviewed And it's been accredited by the Defense Health Agency. | ||
| Yeah, we've heard that. | ||
| Right? | ||
| So, you think that they, like, basically, your debunk, which you failed miserably to debunk the film, right? | ||
| I have proven again and again that your points were invalid. | ||
| I have presented data with healthier meals. | ||
| You thought I was going to go to the feeding someone McDonald's. | ||
| I didn't. | ||
| I showed one with just basically dairy. | ||
| Just dairy. | ||
| And I've showed three or four studies with dairy protein. | ||
| Proteins that don't interfere with endothelial function and actually improve it. | ||
| The bottom line is, Joe, that at each step of the way, Chris is not in line with the scientific consensus. | ||
| Not on protein recommendations, not on definition of carbohydrates, not on endothelial function, not on heme iron. | ||
| You shouldn't be having him on He said himself he's not an expert in nutrition. | ||
| He is unable to read a single study and understand it. | ||
| I am not qualified either. | ||
| That's a mischaracterization. | ||
| Okay, then tell me the competence interval of this in the forest plot. | ||
| Listen, I'm presenting... | ||
| You've presented some studies. | ||
| Anyone can say anything about studies. | ||
| I've not put myself out. | ||
| I'm the expert that is doing these studies. | ||
| That's what people think. | ||
| That is doing these studies. | ||
| In the same way that you did, you... | ||
| Collected information from experts. | ||
| From the scientific consensus, from leading researchers with thousands of hours. | ||
| There are many experts that would disagree. | ||
| But it's the same thing with climate change or whatever. | ||
| No, it's not the same at all. | ||
| It's absolutely not the same. | ||
| The consensus of experts that agree that we should be on a 100% or even 95% plant-based diet is the same as the consensus on climate change. | ||
| It's not even close to that. | ||
| Parallel is that the scientific consensus says that we should be in predominantly plant-based diets and that vegan and even vegan diets are helpful for all stages of life cycle. | ||
| I've shown that you can get enough protein. | ||
| I've shown that the quality DS scoring doesn't matter. | ||
| I've shown that the B12 stuff that you got is completely wrong. | ||
| What else do you want me to show you? | ||
| You want me to show you that even despite having lower creatine levels, because people have pointed out in the film, oh, you said as long as you get all the amino acids, that's enough. | ||
| You didn't point out that the study said vegetarians have lower creatine sores, therefore it may affect performance. | ||
| They didn't test it. | ||
| I've got a bunch of studies where it has been tested, where they had vegetarians and meat eaters had equivocal fat-free mass, equivocal power output, equivalent time to fatigue, despite lower creatine levels. | ||
| And we know that creatine is ergogenic. | ||
| I've also got other studies showing that when vegetarians actually take supplemental creatine, they get increased gains of over one pound of muscle over the meat eaters. | ||
| So despite lower creatine, which we know is the most studied supplement They're getting that because their intake of creatine is lower. | ||
| Yes, and so when they take... | ||
| So they're supplementing, they see a bigger response. | ||
| You could look at that the other way. | ||
| You could say, we should have more creatine in their diet, and then they wouldn't need to supplement with that to get the bigger response. | ||
| Right, but it points out that despite lower creatine source, which we know are ergogenic, which are performance-enhancing, they still have equivocal fat-free mass, muscle, and power output and time to fatigue. | ||
| And when you add creatine in, you get a benefit. | ||
| Now, I'm not saying that everyone should be taking creatine, but if you're trying to build as much muscle as possible, I think you should. | ||
| And by the way, meat eaters also tend to supplement that are trying to bodybuild with creatine as well. | ||
| So I'm saying that despite the fact of lower creatine, which we know... | ||
| Would you argue that's probably the most well-studied and best... | ||
| A supplement that we know of that can help... | ||
| Muscle gain. | ||
| Yeah, okay, fair enough. | ||
| So despite lower creatine, people on plant-based diets can still have as much muscle mass. | ||
| And when they hate creatine, they get even more than the meat-eaters. | ||
| And I've got a bunch of science to prove that too. | ||
| So basically, Joe... | ||
| If someone watched the last episode where he tried to debunk the film for 2 hours and 50 minutes, do you feel that I've fairly addressed a lot of the critiques? | ||
| And I can address a lot more. | ||
| He talks about nutrient quality. | ||
| He likes to refer to diet quality. | ||
| He says that we're lowering certain nutrients. | ||
| Yeah, vegans are low, typically in B12 and D, calcium and zinc, because they eat a bunch of shit. | ||
| But meat eaters are low in about 9%. | ||
| So he likes to point to a nutrient score which favors a paleo-type diet. | ||
| That's not comparing equivalent vegans. | ||
| Vegans and vegetarians in general, they smoke less, they have a higher drink less, they have a higher diet quality in general. | ||
| So it's not comparing apples to apples. | ||
| Right, because they do all of the things that are better for health, including eating a plant-based diet. | ||
| He thinks that just the only one thing that they don't do better is eat more plants. | ||
| Well, he's saying that you lump in meat eaters with people that eat the standard American diet. | ||
| When you say meat eaters, you're not talking about people who are eating organic. | ||
| But when we're talking about muscle diet... | ||
| Average American gets 60% of their calories from ultra-processed and refined foods. | ||
| So that's why they're nutrient deficient. | ||
| But that's what they are saying when they compare meat eaters versus... | ||
| You're not comparing Joe Rogan's and his diet versus an equivalent... | ||
| No, but all I'm pointing it out is that you are saying that vegans are typically more deficient in certain nutrients. | ||
| They are in certain nutrients, but that's because a lot of people aren't smart and don't like... | ||
| So you're looking at the overall group of them versus the people that are doing it as recommended by these studies that are showing the appropriate amount of amino acids they're doing it or they're bound. | ||
| I don't even think about it. | ||
| I don't count how much protein I'm taking. | ||
| I just eat a wide variety. | ||
| And a really good source actually is nutritionfacts.org. | ||
| And he's got this useful thing called... | ||
| Yeah, he doesn't like that because it's not in alignment. | ||
| What's wrong with nutritionfacts.org? | ||
| Oh, it's just... | ||
| It has a very strong plant-based... | ||
| Agenda. | ||
| Yeah, well, because they follow the science. | ||
| So anyway, forget all of the useful videos that are on there. | ||
| They do like three-minute videos for people to learn about the science. | ||
| It gives all the references. | ||
| But the useful thing, the really useful thing is he has like the daily dozen, you know, about what all of the evidence is showing we should be eating. | ||
| Whether you're eating meat or not all of the evidence showing like how much legumes how much fruits how much vegetables You know the flaxseed and you know these types of things So it's just like it's like a fridge magnet you can throw in your fridge and James you made an excellent point Chris, do you have anything to say in closing? | ||
| Oh, thank you for doing this. | ||
| I really appreciate the time. | ||
| Sorry if it felt a bit combative. | ||
| No, you knocked it out of the park. | ||
| You did a fantastic job. | ||
| I appreciate it. | ||
| Let me explain my position. | ||
| Coming in here, I felt like you'd put your film out. | ||
| I felt Chris felt the same way. | ||
| Having you in here while he debunked it was just going to be a waste of time. | ||
| You had put your position out. | ||
| He was going to chance to debunk it. | ||
| I've also felt that would be unfair to not have you come in and explain and refute his debunking. | ||
| And I think you did a fantastic job. | ||
| I really appreciate having me on. | ||
| My pleasure. | ||
| And I'd love to come back on and talk about combatives and myself sometime. | ||
| Whatever, man. | ||
| Let's do that next time. | ||
| Awesome. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Thank you, Chris. | ||
| Thank you, James. | ||
| Bye, everybody. | ||
| I'm sorry I felt it was combative. |
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