Bob Lazar, a former Los Alamos physicist (1988–89), details classified work at S4—15 miles from Area 51—on alien reverse-engineering, including a gravity-warping reactor using element 115 and craft with heart-shaped distortions. The 2001 Wilson Memo and 2004 Nimitz Tic Tac sighting align with his claims, while biometric tech (finger bone scans) and erased records add credibility. Rogan now supports Lazar’s story, dismissing past skepticism amid growing military admissions, suggesting decades of suppression hid cosmic-level advancements. [Automatically generated summary]
At that time, it was 1982, I had put a jet engine in my Honda and Los Alamos put it on the front page of the paper.
I said, you know, Los Alamos man, physicist at the lab, you know, built this 200-mile-an-hour Honda jet car that I drove to work every day.
So I was known in Los Alamos, the guy with the weird car, and you could hear it from a mile away.
Anyway...
The day that came out on the front page of the paper was the day Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, was giving a lecture down there at the lab.
And we didn't have much going on that day in our group, and I asked if I could go down there.
And I went down there early, and Ed Teller was outside, leaning on a brick wall there and reading the front page of the paper.
Now, this is a guy out of history, so I introduced myself.
Hey, I'm the guy you're reading about there.
And we talked for a little while, and it was cool.
You know, fast forward to years later, I had moved out to Las Vegas and had, you know, left Los Alamos and, you know, went on to other things and I wanted to get back into the scientific community.
You know, I left to start other businesses and that sort of thing.
So I sent resumes out and one of them went out to Ed Teller and referenced our meeting.
You know, back in the day.
And anyway, he remembered me and gave me a reference, somebody to contact at EG&G. And that's pretty much how it started.
No, it really wasn't weird because people that work at the test site, anybody that's familiar with the area up there, you know, working at the nuclear test site or at the Tonopah test range north of there, That's typically how things go.
Well, I actually have to back up because there were some briefings that I read before that that certainly gave me the impression that this was going to be a weird job.
But this was the first hands-on thing.
This was a small reactor about the size of a hemisphere about the size of a basketball.
On a metal plate, and when it was running, it produced a gravitational field, a gravitational field of its own.
Now this is something that we can't do.
We can't produce any gravity.
The only way we get gravity is from large quantities of mass.
But there's no machine we can have that turns on that makes gravity.
Like, you know, you can turn on an electromagnet and it makes a magnetic field.
We can't make a gravitational field.
Anyway, this device was producing that.
And Barry said, almost like he was bragging, go ahead, try and touch the sphere.
And I couldn't.
It pushed my hands away, just like two light poles of a magnet.
This project was to back-engineer the alien craft, and specifically it was to try and back-engineer and see if we can duplicate the technology with available materials.
Now to do this, they split the project into, you know, many different pieces for several reasons.
They do this on all classified projects.
So nobody has the complete story, but they compartmentalize everything.
Now we had the power and propulsion system.
So what briefings they gave me were like a one or two page overview of some of the other projects that were going on, you know, on the craft.
The only reason they do that is just in case what you're working on is connected intimately in some way that we don't know of to one of the other projects.
You have to know their existence.
So, again, everything from metallurgy to weapon potential, the craft.
These were all, you know, essentially very short briefings, but mine was just power and propulsion, and it made it very clear that what I read was accurate.
I mean, we did identify, at least we think, some processes and had a rough idea, we think, of what was going on, but I think this is a problem that they've had for a long time.
And, you know, I was replacing somebody that Barry worked with prior to me, and I think there was some horrific accident that I didn't have a whole lot of information on, but, you know, Barry alluded to that.
So they bring you into this room, you see this reactor working, you realize this is nothing that as far as like the scientific community at current time has the ability to create.
I would imagine the moment you actually make contact with something that's extraterrestrial, whether it's an object or a being, something where you can absolutely be certain it's not from here, your whole paradigm, the whole world you live in, is now a different place.
You know, the rest of the time, it was really an ominous feeling being at work.
But at that time, it was exciting.
I mean, this was...
Now I knew we were on the absolute beyond...
Actually, beyond the cutting edge of science.
And I was so absolutely excited to be there every single time I was.
You know, this was a fantastic opportunity.
However...
In short order, it began to concern me.
We really have no idea what we're talking about.
The excitement kind of turned to dread at some point because the amount of power we're dealing with is astronomical.
I mean, to affect gravity, to produce the effects like this equipment does, takes huge amounts of power.
And I've given the example before of You know, taking a small portable nuclear reactor and, you know, putting it back into Victorian times, you know, with the scientists of the time, and just dropping it in a room.
And they come and look at it and see that it's producing power and wonder how it works.
So they start taking it apart.
And as soon as they get some of the shielding off, the people are going to drop dead because of the radiation inside.
Now, people have no idea that radiation even exists back then.
But anybody that comes in to check on them will also drop dead.
And, you know, there's no reason that that exact scenario couldn't happen with what we're dealing with.
We have no idea how the physics operate within this thing.
The power levels are, like I said, astronomical.
It's incredibly dangerous to tinker with something like that.
And, you know, in some respects, we were guinea pigs.
So they had a series, as far as you surmised, they had a series of different scientists try to back-engineer this thing, try to figure out what this thing was, and they would bring in new people and, like, let's throw Bob at it.
If the information I read in the briefings was accurate, now what I do have to say is the information that pertained directly to the reactor was accurate.
Well, they knew there was a fuel source in it and they were proficient at making it work.
And again, my analogy to something like this is you can drop a motorcycle off in the wagon train days and just leave it with the keys parked outside, you know, somebody's place.
Everybody will come around it and they'll poke and prod and eventually they'll turn the key, get it to start and become proficient at riding it.
But they won't be able to understand what the hell's going on.
They won't be able to make the plastic fender, much less anything else.
And I think that's exactly the state we were at.
We played around with the parts long enough before I got there where they could make the reactor operate, take the fuel out, and know that it makes it work.
How exactly what was going on in the reactor remained a mystery at the time.
I think we made some progress on what was going on inside, but I don't think anybody really knew anything.
They could just watch what was going on and make note of it.
Yeah, we should explain that, Jeremy, that you and I had this conversation.
I watched your documentary.
We had this conversation, and I said, I have to talk to him.
The document, there's been detractors, there's been a bunch of people that called bullshit on many of the things that you've said, but over time, many of the things that you talked about, even in the 80s, have proven to be true.
Things that people said were not true were proven to be true.
When they synthesized the two or three atoms of the 115, it did decay, and it was not a stable element.
So they're kind of two different things.
But this is kind of typical.
Elements Always have, or pretty much always have, stable isotopes and unstable isotopes.
I think cesium has like 30 unstable isotopes to it.
Well, hydrogen, for example, you're familiar with hydrogen gas.
It's stable.
It's not radioactive.
But there's also two other types of hydrogen.
Deuterium and tritium.
And deuterium isn't radioactive, it's another stable isotope of hydrogen, but tritium is radioactive.
Now they're all hydrogen, but they just have different amounts of neutrons.
So it's the same thing with other elements and element 115. Depending on the amount of neutrons it has, It's the stable version that has the properties that we're talking about.
So at the time, you having a firm knowledge of the periodic chart and knowing what was real and what wasn't real, what was your reaction to having this stable element 115 that wasn't even supposed to exist?
I mean, down to the metal, I did get a chance To look inside the craft on only one occasion, and this was important because where the reactor sat might have been critical to how it operated since everything operates without any interconnections, so the placement of components might be critical.
It's a very ominous feeling, because it's, there are no, first of all, everything is one color.
It's like a dark pewter color, and there are no right angles anywhere.
It's as if somebody took, I've said this before, somebody took a model and fashioned it out of wax and then heated it just for a short time so everything melted.
Everything looks like it's fused together.
Everything has a radius of curvature where two items meet.
It's a really weird-looking thing.
But...
There was almost nothing other than a small foldable hatchway that looked recognizable.
Everything was really unworldly, to pick on it, a way to describe it.
And directly underneath them, there's three levels in the craft.
The main level is what we're talking about.
Directly under that...
are the gravity amplifiers, the big rectangular objects.
Underneath them are the gravity emitters that look like, for lack of a better word, a trash can hanging on a pipe, three of those.
And then the top layer, this is just my personal belief, I think that has to do with a navigation or their version of a computer with some planar panels, sensor panels around the craft that we would call portholes, but they're not portholes, they're just black areas. sensor panels around the craft that we would call portholes, And I think that just determines its, you know, position in space.
But I physically was in the center section and I stuck my torso in the bottom section and hung upside down so I could see how the gravity amplifiers were positioned.
I don't remember from being there, but after all this stuff was over, I had John Andrews, a guy from the Testers Model Corporation, and we sat down and tried to figure out from what I saw and known sizes of things, and we came up with 52 feet in diameter.
I mean, up at the Tonopah test range where they work on stealth fighters, you know, you go, I think, three weeks on, one week off, and you stay up there, too.
So it's not weird to stay up at the test site.
So, yeah, I think he pretty much...
And he acted like he's been up there for a long time.
I mean, we were always – there was never a lot of information that we gained.
The guy, you would call him our supervisor, his name was Dennis Mariani, and kind of a military-looking guy.
And he would routinely pop in during the day and, you know, hey, what's going on, guys?
And he would essentially relay any information, anything new we came up with.
I mean, he was our go-between, where we presented him the information, and then he took it to wherever they were, you know, assembling all the data from everybody.
If you're looking at this object, this reactor, and you can't figure out what it is or how it works, other than the fact that it works on this element that we don't even know about.
If you're trying to analyze it, all you can do is perform tests.
And all we did is try and come up with every kind of test we possibly could.
I mean, we tested, you know, it violated a lot of what we thought was impossible to violate.
I mean, one of the first laws of thermodynamics, I mean, essentially, any machine, any device that operates always makes extra heat.
Nothing works at 100% efficient.
Even the headphones you're wearing, anything that takes power, some of that power is going to be converted to heat and it's just wasted.
This didn't.
I mean, we looked at, back then we had infrared cameras.
They're different today, but back then you had to pour liquid nitrogen into the camera to cool the sensor down and get these infrared images you've seen.
But it never got, no matter what the load was on the reactor, it never got above the ambient temperature, which is impossible.
Pulling out huge amounts of power and nothing ever gets warm.
We tried measuring magnetic fields and there was nothing there.
So we started playing around with the emission from the emitters, the gravity wave itself, and saw what we could do with it and how it was focused.
So we really spent all our time Just trying to see what the stuff can do and what we can control.
No, they just wanted, no, they didn't discuss anything with me.
It sat down, we looked around for a bit, and Barry said, let's go back.
We went back in the lab.
All we got to do was see it.
Fast forward to some months later, I did have the test flight schedule of the craft.
Now they had times they had designated high performance tests.
This obviously wasn't one that was a high performance test.
The high-performance test goes above the mountain range, and they do much more radical moves with the thing.
Look, this is a prized item, and they're not doing anything like taking it out of the atmosphere or flying around to other countries or anything like that.
They just play with this thing right over the test site.
But they were doing some radical moves with it.
And since I had the test flight schedule, statistically...
The amount of traffic in the surrounding areas on the highway was lowest on Wednesdays and that's why Dennis told us that all the test flights occurred only on Wednesdays because it'd be the least chance that anyone would see what's going on.
Yeah, I think that occurred after my story came out.
Then people started going up on the mountaintops and trying to look down into there and they kind of freaked out and then did the land grab and pushed everybody back.
But yeah, I think all that occurred long after, I'm sorry, that I came out.
So you're working there and while you're working there, you're under this crazy schedule.
Forgive me for explaining your story, but you would get these phone calls, you would have to go to the airport at 11pm, and your wife started thinking that you were having an affair.
Now, I did give my permission to have, as part of the security clearance process, I gave written permission to have the phones monitored and things of that sort, so they weren't doing any covert stuff.
They...
You know, with any Q clearance, which is civilian top secret clearance, or military top secret clearance, they go talk to friends and, you know, places you've been, make sure you're not connected to foreign countries, but, you know, monitoring your phone is nothing unusual.
However, they insisted that, you know, you don't even talk to your loved one, to your partner, to your wife, whatever, about what's going on.
So she was essentially in the dark and didn't know the phone was being monitored.
Well, part of the security clearance is that not only do you not have any connections to foreign countries and aren't a maniac, but you have to have a stable home life too.
Well, she started having an affair with a flight instructor Now, they were monitoring this on the phone and they knew it and I didn't.
So they stopped me coming in and their attitude at the time was, we need to see how this is going to play out and if Lazar is going to get a little weird or anything.
So let's just, you know, hold him off from coming in and, you know, see what happens.
Well, after the fact, yeah, because time kind of went on and there were guys that were following me around and I started getting a little concerned going, well, Chit, are they booting me out of the project?
And if so, they're not just going to let me hang out at home and go get a new job knowing what I know.
So as time went on, I started getting a little concerned and I took my closest friends and just kind of got together and I said, hey...
Remember that job I told you about?
This is what's going on.
And you don't need to take my word for it.
Wednesday night, we need to all go out here.
I want to show you what's going on.
So I took everybody and we went out to...
Remember, since I had the test flight schedule...
And went outside the base, out into the desert, and so everybody could see, you know, one of the high-performance tests.
And, you know, it left quite an imprint on everybody, so they knew I wasn't...
You know, to see how his video looks now, but as far as video evidence, I mean, we are talking 80s camp, where the most important thing is the human story here.
Everybody that he took up there on three separate occasions, they don't all like each other.
They don't all talk.
They all agree on one thing.
They saw something that night at the exact point in time and space that Balbazar said, and remember, this is 17, 15, 17 miles south of Area 51. No one even knew really about Area 51. We're talking Papoose Lake, and they all agree.
They saw something that night they had never seen before and they've never seen since right when he said it.
So that's one of the six things where I'm like, how did he know?
As crazy as that sounds, being in case it's own gravitational envelope, inertia is not going to affect it.
And, you know, this is...
This is how some of those recent sightings of Commander David Fravor, I'm sure you've heard of the Tic Tac UFO, I mean he describes exactly, the thing operates exactly the way I was describing.
That's why he was interested to talk to me.
But we saw this and You know, on the way home, it's like, hey, we got away with it.
We should try it again the next test flight day.
So this became a thing to do.
And I think it was on the third time that we got caught.
I mean, we started becoming a little careless.
I think we took a motorhome out there.
You know, I mean, it was like the stupidest thing you could possibly imagine.
And, you know, what was funny was we went out there and my friend Gene Huff and I were leaning on the front of a vehicle.
And just for some reason, we just started talking shit.
Like, well, I hope they realize that...
I don't remember what we were saying, but, you know, something about attacking the base or something along those lines and stealing the craft or something like that.
And then about 20 feet in front of us, we see a little green light.
Fall on the ground and roll to us.
And unbeknownst to us, now it's pitch black, you can't see your hand in front of your face, there were a bunch of guards standing right out there and they had a night vision scope where they were like from here to the wall looking at us, listening to us, and the guy dropped it and the scope rolled over to us and you could see the green screen.
We turn the lights on and all these guys are there.
So we did incredibly stupid stuff and got caught as we should have.
Yeah, now I know not only am I being monitored, but now I know I'm in trouble.
And it wasn't a short time after that that I contacted, you know, at that time the only investigative reporter I had heard of in Las Vegas was George Knapp and, you know, told him some of the story because I had no idea what the hell was going to happen at that point.
So George Knapp tries to dissect your story, tries to find holes in it, Tells it, puts it online, and makes everybody aware of it, and that's how I found out about it.
And it's on Netflix right now, if anybody wants to check it out.
And if you're one of those people like me, who, you know, I've always loved the idea of UFOs.
I became extremely weary talking to people who are UFO believers and UFO fanatics because there's so many of them that are full of shit.
And not just full of shit, they're childishly delirious.
Like the way they talk about things, I mean there's so many people that I'm in contact, they reach me in the night and they explain to me what we're doing to the ocean is wrong.
This is one of the reasons I didn't want to do the show.
I'm sure.
One of them.
I mean, it's no joke.
We've had people literally camp out on our front lawn, and in some ways I can relate to some of these people.
Maybe some of them did really have some kind of experience or saw something, and all their friends think they're crazy, but hey, now there's this guy I heard on the radio, and at least he knows I'm not full of shit, so I've got to talk to him.
And so most of the correspondence I get are people trying to get a hold of me going, Bob, you've got to listen to me.
I'm coming to talk to you.
I'm driving from Oklahoma or whatever.
But some of them are just fucking batshit crazy and they're frightening.
Joe, it would be a disservice to your audience to not say that We have to look at what's going on now and understand.
I've heard on your show a bunch of stuff about what's going on now.
And to not really understand what's going on now, you can't see Bob's story in the correct light after 30 years.
The biggest being that things like the Tic Tac UFO case that came out, I've heard people even on the show say, oh, there's a glitch in the radar.
That's a data poor perspective.
You just don't know yet what's really going on.
Commander Fravor, I was able to get the interview with him to talk with him way before it became public.
I got that from him.
He saw it.
Other pilots saw it.
This is a big thing that's going on right now.
They had more sightings on the East Coast recently, cubes with spherical oars.
These are not aerodynamic and these are the people we trust to defend us on 9-11.
Commander Fair protected Los Angeles on 9-11.
So we trust them, but they're not trained observers.
Radar.
Individuals see these things.
And the big one, just to throw it down so we can consider a story a little differently, there's more depth to it.
The big one is the United States government has admitted that they have been continuously studying the UFO phenomenon.
That program was called AATIP, was called OSAP. That's the mother program.
George Knapp got that out.
They announced through the New York Times about AATIP. But OSAP, these acronyms, OSAP, Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Applications Program, who cares?
That was the mother program.
So they've admitted, we didn't stop studying UFOs in 1969 with Project Blue Book.
We don't think it's crazy.
We actually want to reverse engineer the technology.
That's why on your other show, you said, what's this AAV thing?
It's like, they're making up another UFO name.
Well, hold on.
There's a reason.
Because in the documents, the DIA documents that George Knapp released, that everybody said was fake until now they know is real, they call them AAVs, which is Advanced Aerospace Vehicles.
People are getting the acronyms wrong.
So the reason for the terminology change is so that we can mimic what we're reading in the DIA documents.
People can look for that now.
So they changed the names to get people away from UFO or UAP, even like Hillary Clinton said, on air, right?
They were also saying anomalous aerospace threats, A-A-T, right?
Because they want the sense of a threat.
So my point is...
If people don't know this now and they think this stuff is fantasy, this part of it, that we're studying it, that we take it seriously, we're spending money on it, and that we're getting great data from visual pilots to radar.
That's why we know it's aerospace.
They dropped from 80,000 feet.
But guess what?
That's the top scope of the SPY-1 radar is 80,000 feet.
So the radar system they were using, it was coming from above that.
So my point is this.
If you don't understand that this is happening, you're just behind the curve because you don't have the information because of the stigma that you're talking about.
I saw you get totally upset with the UFO topic.
I met you first when you got totally upset with the UFO topic.
First observation of gravitational waves, it says it was in 2016. Okay, the first observation of gravitational waves was made on 14th of September 2015, as announced by the LIGO and Virgo collaborators on the 11th of February 2016. Previously, gravitational waves had only been inferred indirectly via their effect on the timing of pulsars in binary star systems.
The waveform connected by both LIGO observatories matched the predictions of general relativity for a gravitational wave.
Emanating from the inward spiral and merger of a pair of black holes around 36 and 29 solar masses and the subsequent ring down of the single resulting black hole.
So the thought is that the way we experience gravity, it's based on mass, which is why the moon, which is roughly one-quarter the size of the Earth, has one-sixth of the Earth's gravity.
So there's some sort of a computation you can make based on mass.
I love your analogy of dropping off a small nuclear reactor to the Victorian era.
I love that analogy.
Because back then, that was impossible.
That was magic.
What you're talking about here, the fact that they just discovered this four years ago, that this is a wave.
As much as we know and as impressed as we are, as we should be, with how much more technologically advanced we are than every other creature on this planet, We're still, in many ways, in the adolescence of technological innovation.
Now, I'm not in – believe it or not, I'm not into UFOs.
I don't follow stories or, you know – Even after your experiences?
No, I'm fascinated with the technology and I – it really – it irks me like every night I go to sleep that, you know, I don't – That it was my own doing, essentially, that prevented me from continuing on in the project.
To be on that cutting edge of technology is so alluring to me.
By the same token, I don't really care that there's aliens or where they come from.
I mean, the prize is the technology, and that's what I'm fascinated by.
So I don't listen to UFO stories and that sort of thing.
But George Knapp is...
I mean, he's the guy that has the context and tries to thread everything together.
And what he recently told me is he found...
I don't know, it was either documentation or people that he spoke to.
It's that the existence of this project, the project that I was on, it's something that they...
Admiral Wilson meets with this scientist and they have this discussion, oddly enough, at special projects at EG&G. And if I remember, the document is from 2001. I'm telling everybody right now, it's real.
And we'll see.
My history's pretty good with saying if something's real or not, right?
So here we go.
The document comes out.
They meet at EG&G Special Projects.
In 1989, they stumble into a problem.
This happens.
They put the technology away, and then they bring it back out and see if material science has caught up and if they can make any progress.
So this document kind of talks about this process.
The big thing I get from it, and a lot of it's vindicating to Bob, and one of the things it's vindicating, besides the EG&G thing, Is that private industry...
So this guy's an admiral.
And he says, I found out about your SAP, your special access program.
I need to know about it.
And he's going to a private part of industry.
And he is denied access.
And he says, you know, I should be running this program.
And they were able to deny him access.
So I think the takeaway here is, check it out.
I'm telling you that that is an actual, correct, that is a leak.
Now, everything said in that document, I don't know.
It's between a scientist and an admiral that are sitting and they're having a meeting and they're talking about the search for the UFO subject, the search to get special access program access to all of these different things like reverse engineering programs.
So in this document, they talk about it.
I believe that this document, the person that went was employed by Robert Bigelow, you know, one of the guys that has a couple of orbiting satellites and all that stuff.
There's a new owner, and I interviewed him for my other film, But there's a new owner, and you'll be hearing a lot more about that soon.
But there's stuff that you'll be hearing about Skinwalker Ranch soon because there's a new owner.
Anyway, the whole point of this insertion here is just that that document kind of validates a lot of this idea Bob just said, that they make a little progress, then they can't go anywhere.
They tuck it away.
And then they bring it back out, you know, 10 years later and start working on it.
What is the limiting factor?
I think Bob should speak on this, but it's the material science.
Yeah, it's really where physics is, so I can see them doing that.
I mean, I didn't have any information on that, but I think what, you know, George uncovered is probably accurate, that, you know, we try and do what we can, and once we reach a roadblock going, we really can't figure it out, it's just...
Friggin' wait.
Put the thing away.
Wait for science to catch up.
And, you know, a decade later, let's take the project out again and see, all right, now where can we go?
Do you remember when he had that government contract called ASAP, the world all knows about now?
And he had NIDS that studied the ranch.
So that $22 million, everybody is saying it was for AATIP, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program.
The $22 million was for ASAP that was pushed through Congress, three congressmen, right – An astronaut.
It was pushed through.
And that's what that $22 million, by the way, they spend more money on Viagra every year than they do studying UFOs, if it was just this program, which I think is funny.
And if you look, I spent a lot of time in the area.
I'm not talking about those stories.
I'm saying there were scientists hired by the government, right, through Bigelow to study the ranch because they thought it was important.
And, you know, whatever, whatever.
The point is that $22 million was to study that.
Then we have ATIP, which is like an auxiliary kind of program of military settings, like Commander Fravers and that sort of thing.
This document is just one of those things that has now come forward that through the Bigelow studies, it was government funded, and then it was personally funded, and then government funded.
It's just one of those things that kind of shakes you because you got this military guy who can't get access because of the private industry that's holding these non-terrestrial materials.
I mean, the way it ended was I told George Knapp all this stuff.
And, you know, he said, well, let's just get it on tape.
Should something happen, at least we have a record of it.
And...
I don't remember what the impetus was, but at some point, George wanted to air it.
And he said, you know, you make the call on it.
And look, if at any point you change your mind, we won't air it.
And it came down to the day where George wants to put it on the 5 o'clock news.
He said, this is important stuff.
People have to know about it.
And I thought it was too.
I thought it's kind of a crime.
I know you've got to keep the technology secret, but you can't not tell everybody that this stuff is going on, that we have, you know, actual hardware from another civilization.
It's a big fucking deal.
You know, probably the biggest one there ever was.
And George said, you know, today's the day we've got to put it on the news or something to that effect.
And when it came right down to the time to air it, I changed my mind and I said, We're not doing it.
And that's what turned into the famous wrestling match between me and George trying to get the tape, but he won because he was a bigger guy.
After that, a lot of people I've known either were audited by the IRS. Anybody I know that had clearances that worked in secure programs had the clearances pulled.
One of them A friend, one of mine that Jeremy knows.
Well, because you're getting a real chance to explain yourself in a way that's going to make people who not only work in the government, people that are Police officers and firefighters and first responders and doctors and scientists, they're going to emphasize.
Empathize and empathize with what it must be like to be a person like you in your 20s who gets thrust into this world unknowingly and confronted with One of the most, if not the most, important discovery in the history of human beings, the big question, are we alone?
It's the number one question.
There's two questions, right?
What happens when we die and are we alone?
Those are the two big questions.
And if we're not alone, And someone knows we're not alone.
And these some people who know we're not alone are these bungling sort of military folks.
So one is uncertainty, and the other one is what Bob and I have talked about a lot, Absolutely not knowing what to tell people, because you don't really understand it yourself, even though you've got these...
Well, one of the more recent sightings and these discussions that have been coming out recently from Air Force pilots and Navy pilots, they've been talking about things happening in the ocean.
And that something literally goes into the water or something maybe below the surface of the water.
Yeah, they found it 11 hours later, and they were saying there's no way this thing, using that kind of energy to go that fast, could just hover for 11 hours.
And by the way, you're seeing a very small part of what happened that day.
This object was not alone.
And so hopefully that information comes out and we can, I mean, I wish we had video of it.
I'm sure we'd all want to see it.
But that's called the gimbal.
That was East Coast, right?
2015. West Coast, 2004, was the Tic Tac.
The disturbance on the water, Commander Fravor believes there was something under that water that was causing that disturbance when the Tic Tac was coming around and doing it.
With inside the people that are studying this, they're thinking maybe the Tic Tac system was causing the disturbance, but the USO, an identified submerged object that he visually saw, the whole interesting thing about that is, I would love Bob to describe it, is why it doesn't matter if these craft are in space, air, or water.
Well, first of all, Commander Fravor was the F-18 pilot off the Nimitz that was sent out to find out what this stuff is.
And it wasn't just...
I got a chance to talk to him recently.
And it wasn't just a radar image.
I mean, Commander Fravor had eyes on it for over five minutes watching this thing, as four other pilots did.
So this wasn't a radar blip or anything.
I mean, these guys were watching this thing.
But...
You know, one of the things I think in the gimbal video, the way the craft that we worked on flies is it doesn't fly like a conventional aircraft does, and it doesn't fly like a flying saucer would in a 1950s movie.
It flies belly first.
I mean, it may set down conventionally, but it always rotates.
It does a roll maneuver, puts its belly towards the target, and then moves away at high speed.
So much like we have different shaped aircrafts and fighter jets and cars, they probably have different shapes of these objects that operate under similar principles.
And we're also dealing with, if you think about the laws of technological progression, you know, you think of Moore's Law and you think of how things accelerate, you've got to think that if this civilization is who knows how many years more advanced than we are, if not even years.
I mean, we're thinking about in terms of conventional terms, right, the way we look at the world.
I mean, they might be just superior in terms of their intellect.
Well, the only reason I say that is because Look, everyone doesn't necessarily start at a steam engine and go to an internal combustion engine and then, you know, electric power, nuclear power, and go up the ladder that we came on.
You know, if this stuff is true about the origin and the binary star system, and they have heavier elements that we don't have, and this element, stable element 115 is a naturally occurring material, Maybe that's the first thing they started experimenting with.
And the version of their steam engine, their first product, was something that operated like this.
And actually when they came to Earth to look around or whatever, they were amazed at the stuff we were doing.
These guys burned stuff and squirted out the back to go forward.
So who says they follow any kind of normal progression like that?
So a cyborg or a cybernetic organism is just that, you know, that's what a lot of people think those, like, gray things are, you know, that people call the grays.
Well, you see a clear progression of evolution, too, where something like that, I would lean towards a synthetic organism because it looks like it was made for a specific task.
There's no reproductive organs, so, I mean, that almost kind of leaves out any kind of, you know, physical evolution.
By the way, these craft, all these different kinds have been reported because it was confusing.
I always thought of flying saucers when I heard Bob Lazar talk about flying saucer, right?
But if you look back in history, people have always reported the weirdest shapes, like none of them are alike.
You know, there are the saucers, but you got cigar shaped, you got, you know, the top hat shaped, you have orbs.
Why?
Maybe they're serving different purposes.
They're doing different things like we'd use different tools.
And I want to be clear, the reason I know that memo is real is because I spent a lot of time with Dr. Edgar Mitchell, a sixth man to walk on the moon, last guy to film him before he died, right?
That's how I know I don't want any journalists thinking I got it from anywhere else.
I know because of Dr. Mitchell.
And he said the same thing.
Maybe these things are performing different tasks, you know?
Well, they seem, if you think about what an alien is in terms of the sort of iconic image of an alien, like Steven Spielberg, Closing Cows are the third kind alien.
They seem like what we'd assume a human being would eventually become.
And if these things are tiny, human beings are smaller than they've ever been before.
They're weaker than they've ever been before.
And there seems to be a trend in that direction.
And this trend seems to be amplified by our technological progression.
There are a lack of need for muscle strength and our lack of need for violence.
And we're moving in a society to try to get away from all the things that we think are abhorrent about human beings and the terrible behaviors that we have.
If we one day do give birth to some sort of an artificial being, like Marshall McLuhan's quote, we are the sex organs of the machine world.
And that quote has always been one of my favorites.
Because, okay, what are we doing when we're constantly technologically innovating?
We're constantly looking for faster cars, better computers, bigger screens, faster, more resolution, more pixels, more this, more that, higher bandwidth, 5G, 10G.
What are we doing?
We're moving into this – if you just follow it, objectively stand back, don't attach yourself or your civilization, your culture to it, and look at what it is.
We're moving 100% towards technological innovation.
If you looked at this species from afar, and if you weren't a part of it, you would say, what does this species do?
Oh, they make things.
They make things better every year.
Beehives are the same fucking thing that you see 10 years ago.
You go by, you see a beehive, it's amazing, it's cool, but they're the same fucking thing.
They figured out how to do it, they make a beehive.
He was expunged from the Harvard logs, by the way.
This is something my friend just called me about.
So there's like this private library and they used to print people's names whenever they were part of a university and he was one of a handful of people that were expunged from it.
I want to jump back to the one thing, Joe.
I want to be very careful with that word, conspiracy theorist.
What I was saying to you was, we terraform our Earth, right?
We terraform.
We change the environment.
We do all this innovation.
What is stopping us from thinking that that's not being done?
I'm not saying it is.
I'm saying, what's stopping us from thinking that that's being done on a much bigger level, on a cosmic level?
It's much more likely that the same way we observe chimps, and we observe that they are now in the Stone Age, that they're observing us, and that they're recognizing that there is a pattern, that there's steps that happen.
I mean, Carl Sagan talked about the different levels of civilization, and that if we don't get past certain levels, we're never going to reach We're in this warring, polluting, pillaging civilization.
The other thing is, you're using the immense power that other people have created.
Even when you're driving a car and you're stomping on the gas like, woo!
You didn't invent the fucking engine.
You didn't invent tires.
There's all these things that were involved in the creation of this thing that is really outside of your grasp of understanding, but yet you have the ability to use it.
Like a person with a gun.
I'm just going to bang, bang, bang people.
You didn't invent a gun.
Without the intellect to craft and engineer and manifest these creations, you just have access to them because you have paper or you have Bitcoin or you have whatever the fuck you're using.
You're using a credit card.
Now you have almost no responsibility.
You could just flippantly use these things, which is why we were very childlike in our actions.
We haven't had to earn the responsibility.
We haven't had to earn these things that we've been able to have, and you've only been able to have them because other people have innovated and spent Ungodly amounts of time and effort and focus in the lab to create these things.
You think in terms of what you want and what you need right now.
We are, in many ways, this combination of this weird, primitive, ape-like thing with The ability to calculate and manipulate our world and our environment that makes us wholly unique.
On top of that, with existential angst and fear.
So what do you do with that?
We fucking water it down with antidepressants.
Give these fucking people some shit that keeps them moving.
They're worried about the future.
They're trying to figure out what reality is.
You're on a goddamn convertible spaceship, spinning a thousand miles an hour, hurling through infinity.
There's no meaning to this thing.
Just keep making shit.
Keep making stuff.
And then one day, they're going to be able to hit that switch, and this life will be born out of innovation and thinking and progress and technology.
And more than likely, it's probably going to be what we're seeing that these things are, that you're observing.
You know, I went to see Brian Cox's, he has this amazing live show with Robin Ince where they have these LED screens, these huge screens with high-resolution depictions of the cosmos.
And one of the most mind-blowing things...
Was he has this large-scale image of the universe, and it shows all the individual galaxies of the universe, and it just keeps moving through all these galaxies in three dimensions.
And it's fucking incredible.
But what's stunning is the relative uniformity of it even at you know, I mean you're obviously looking at an incredibly small depiction of something that's immensely large like a galaxy of hundreds of billions of stars You're seeing it as this little dot, but this little dot that's flying through space surrounded by other little darts with very similarly space distances.
Yeah, I'm actually So, Mike, if we see uniformity in that form, in terms of the distance between galaxies, so many galaxies, it's so similar.
They might vary slightly, and that slightly might be hundreds of millions of light years, right?
But there's so much uniformity.
Why would we not assume that that uniformity exists pretty much everywhere?
And that all these things that you're seeing that are so similar, you do see binary star systems, you do see single star systems.
But there's also some speculation that Earth, that our solar system one time was a binary star system.
Right?
I mean, that's one of the speculations about that object that they find outside the Kuiper belt that they think is ten times larger than Earth.
They think it might have been at one point in time a star.
But this uniformity that you see, why wouldn't we think that that has its same implications biologically?
That there's some sort of a biological uniformity, and that this happens, given the right sets of circumstances?
Well, I mean, again, the only thing I could verify was what I had my hands on.
There was talk of weapon systems.
There were different projects.
Project Galileo, Project Sidekick was supposed to be weapon applications of the craft.
Project Looking Glass had to do with time, any effects of time in the craft.
Now, I don't think...
We're not talking about making a time machine like in science fiction, but we're talking about, you know, small distortions, intentional distortions of time and how that can be used, you know, as a...
They noticed it on radar 60 seconds after it left Commander Fravor, but it was at his cap point, which is the next point he was destined to go to, 60 miles away.
And in 60 seconds on radar, the same object ends up there.
What's fascinating to me, too, is that you were discussing this, the way this reactor worked, and that these things were not really connected to No, nothing is connected.
I mean, for other people that don't know what you're saying, he wanted to send wireless electricity through the sky, and Westinghouse was like, get the fuck out of here with that.
Like when anybody could just pull electricity out of the sky?
It would have changed the course of how we developed, which is so interesting when you talk about if a civilization of the star system didn't even start with fossil fuels.
They had 115 naturally on their planet.
And they're like, cool, anti-gravity is pretty awesome.
If we imagine what this alien race must have been like, I mean, God, just to be able to see something.
I mean, obviously we've seen it in different life forms, right?
Like we see the life of certain beetles in comparison to the life of certain beetles.
of certain fish very very different existence very different life cycles octopus yeah octopus yeah I mean we see all these different variables in terms of biological entities on earth but we don't see it in terms of technological innovation as we're the only one that's intelligent that can innovate We have intelligent creatures but they're in the ocean.
The only other thing that are like us are dolphins and orcas and whales.
And they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment.
And subsequently, because they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment, we put them in fish tanks.
You know, the only thing he saw in the craft, if we were considering Bob's story, the only thing that he saw in the craft that he related to, that looked like a human could make, was this honeycomb hatch.
And I always love that because you're like obsessed with this thing that you could recognize.
Well, you know, if you have a six-pack of beer and you take out the cardboard dividers, set it on the table, you can put a lot of pressure on the top.
But if you push it from the sides, it collapses flat.
So it was something like that in a honeycomb shape that was essentially some sort of sheet metal, and you could walk on that in the upper layer, but if you took the corner, stuck your finger in, and pushed, it collapsed and made an entryway.
So I thought that was a really unique, I'd never seen that before, and it was the only thing in the craft that made absolute sense to me.
I said, ah, we can make that, and all that is is a hatchway.
Now, one of the things that's happened to you that has allowed people to discredit you was there's obviously been some sort of an effort to erase your past.
Some sort of an effort to erase your education history, your employment history at Los Alamos.
In fact, the only way your employment history was proven at Los Alamos is someone got a list, a directory of the employees from the past and read into it and you were on that list.
So it proved that you worked there even though people were trying to deny it and they were trying to use that as a way to discredit you, that you never did work at Los Alamos.
You weren't really a scientist.
What was that like to experience?
I mean, of course, we're talking about the 1980s, the 1990s, when you could get away with something like that.
It was a way, you know, this was before fingerprint scanners and, you know, anything of...
Any high-resolution scanner at that time.
So what it was was a device that had a little picture of a hand on a glass plate with pins in it, so you could jam your hand in there.
And there was a bright light above it and a sensor underneath.
And when you put your hand in there, the light would turn on, and it would measure the bones in your finger because the light shone through your bones.
And apparently...
The length of the bones in your fingers are extremely unique and easy to measure.
And they use that.
When you put your hands on there, the light would turn on and your badge would pop out.
Oh, there it is!
That's it.
And I tried to describe this to people and they said, that is the most ridiculous thing we've ever heard.
And I said, hey, my badge came out of that thing.
I put my hand on it, badge popped out, and that's how I could open the doors and get into S4. And...
I found it through a good friend of mine named Tyler Rogoway, and he had some good sources inside of Area 52 where they also used these for the stealth program right around that time.
So now I've got all these people that worked within...
Who, you know, said only if you're in certain programs would we use this technology.
It was kind of shit, actually.
They didn't keep it for very long.
Beginning of Biometrics.
So I was able to reveal it in my film.
I kept my mouth shut until I showed it to Bob.
You know, in the movie, the first time he saw it was how you see it in the documentary.
Way more recent than I thought in another country.
But yeah, that technology was used.
So what's so funny is that this technology, even in the Area 52 where they'd use them for Tonopah, one of the guys who will go on camera with me, he will do an interview with me.
Well, I gave Jeremy some names, but the reason I don't say these names publicly is because every single time I mention a name, somebody gets in trouble.
Because they're always putting it into that box instead of going...
Instead of just separating their ego, they're playing a game, and the game is calling bullshit.
I want to call bullshit, and I'm going to line up all these reasons why it's bullshit, and I'm going to ignore anything that might be contrary to that definition.
So this is to Bob and I had people come to me for a friend of mine that's serving and they're doing a security clearance for him and even though I'm like the UFO guy, they did, you know, the FBI will come and visit my house and make sure that they talk about my friend and they lift a little card.
And when my wife told him to get away because he didn't know who they were, they left a little card.
It's super cute now.
Back then it was a handwritten note and his friend has it for him that you haven't seen in Oh my god.
Like a piece of paper that he left on the door saying when Bob gets back or whatever it says on it.
So it's just another little funny thing.
I found the guy.
He does the security clearances.
He admitted to me he did it.
He admitted to me he was dodging George Knapp because when George said his name on the news, he dropped his fork into his steak or into his potatoes or whatever, and he's looking at his wife.
He was in trouble.
His name's never supposed to be out there like this.
It's just a security clearance guy.
But you don't want national attention associated with anything Bob has to say.
But anyway, this unique name Bob said for 30 years, and the guy ghosted George Knapp.
Well, that's one of the reasons why when you and me and Jeremy and George Knapp had that conversation on the phone, I said, I think what we can do with this podcast is important.
I really do.
I think it's important for people to hear this from you in a very clear, just very concise way.
And if you examine all the information that you've said today, if you look at all the things that the detractors have said, if you look at all of the new recent evidence that's coming out and all these really high-level people in the military and the government that are discussing this, It gives you far more credibility than you would have had in the 1980s when this came out.
Well, you've done a great job of making sure you have your bases covered in that regard, that you haven't profited off of this, and like you said, that you have donated whatever money that came your way to science programs.
I mean, it doesn't make any sense any other way.
I mean, what I've gotten out of here is what I thought I was going to get out of here when I watched the documentary, that what you're saying makes sense.
Well, I know that you have paid a huge personal cost to get this information out and I mean maybe you didn't understand what that cost would have been when you first initially came forward with the story but over the past 30 years it's been immense.
It's been great and I just want to thank you for that.
And thank you for all these people that would not have gotten this information and would not have really had this story any other way.