Khalil Rountree Jr. and Joe Rogan compare UFC striking to Thailand’s brutal Muay Thai, where Rountree Jr. trained daily at Tiger Muay Thai, cutting 19 pounds for a fight while Rogan praises hypnosis (70% of his mindset improvement) and questions MMA’s weight-cutting culture. Both highlight elite fighters like Sanchai, Nasty Ukin, and leg-lock specialists Paul Harris and Gordon Ryan, with Rogan avoiding leg locks due to knee issues but admiring technical strikers like MVP. Rogan plans two more UFC fights this year, focusing on recovery methods like Thai massages and heart rate monitoring, while Rountree Jr. commits to a year in Thailand—despite jet lag struggles—to refine his discipline and clinch work, proving that even unconventional paths yield elite results. [Automatically generated summary]
So you've decided, so for people who don't understand what we're talking about, you went to Thailand, you spent four months down in Thailand, and we were fighting like a Thai boxer.
It was crazy.
Like, Mark Delegrate, who works in the production truck, he's the guy who picks out the instant replays.
He and I talk back and forth sometimes while the fight's going on.
And Mark, you know, with his heavy Boston accent, like, dude, classic Thai!
He's classic Thai stance!
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And he would just sit right on that front leg, dude, wham!
Usually, wherever I go, I've always been good at just, like, kind of absorbing the culture.
I'm a guy, like, I can go into a room full of people, and I can just kind of pick up what the energy's like, and that's another reason why I wanted to go to Thailand.
So, just the way that they train and the discipline, the power, but the relaxation, like everything I was learning, just like, man, there's so much more to Muay Thai.
So, I would just, even the days that I didn't train, I'd just sit around and just watch these guys because Muay Thai is more than just punching, kicking elbows.
Man, there's balance.
You know what I mean?
There's repetition.
Like, how many kicks are you throwing?
You know, the guys at the stadiums, they're like, they're kick, kick, kick, kick.
Yeah.
So, I was able to learn a lot, man, and there's still a lot to go.
It's beautiful to see someone on that pursuit, and I think it's much like Roger Mayweather said about boxing.
Like, most people don't know shit about boxing.
And when he said that, it's like, if anybody is going to say that, he's going to say that.
Because there are levels and layers, and there's paths to go down.
It's interesting when you see someone...
Like, committed with a very specific style, like your adoption of that Muay Thai style.
It's so effective as a striking style.
It's really interesting when you think of all the different ways to attack with striking, that that one way became very particularly successful.
You know, before I even started training MMA as a whole, my first martial arts class was a Muay Thai class.
I knew that I wanted to train Muay Thai or learn Muay Thai.
And so since I've started, I always thought, like, yeah, I want to go there.
You know, just maybe it's cool.
But...
Muay Thai has always been my thing, but I never really learned it like the actual way, you know, like from the root of where it comes from.
I was just kind of like passed down or like Brazilian style Muay Thai, you know, like shoot the box type stuff.
So that's completely different from stadium Muay Thai.
And most people don't know shit about stadium Muay Thai, like unless you go to Bangkok.
Let's characterize it for people.
Would you say that that Curitiba style is just way more aggressive, different way they utilize techniques, not light on the front leg?
Sometimes Shogun would be light on his front leg a little bit.
One thing that they were doing a lot that's pretty similar is they go at it.
Shoot the box, they'll go at it, and you just go until the other guy stops pretty much.
But from the shoot-the-box, that was very combo-based, like punches and kicks.
You have to memorize these crazy combos.
Cordero is...
I think he's one of the guys that just passed it down a lot.
There's Diego Lima, guys like that.
But they have this system, and it's very combination-based.
Memory, slipping, punch, kick, all this stuff.
But the ties are just like...
It's just...
Straight kick, you know, like punch, you fall down on that front foot, elbow, knee, it's just, it's broken down completely differently.
It's just a whole different style.
Yeah, it is.
Like, so the shoot-the-box stuff has punches, kicks, knees, elbows, combinations, same tools that you're going to use in Muay Thai, but Muay Thai's got a whole different game plan.
You know, clinching, like...
I've never trained as much clinching in America as I have in Thailand in just four months and I've been fighting or training now for like nine years.
So just in four months, I've gotten more clinch time in Thailand than I have, you know, in my whole career.
And that's because it's a whole different game.
You got to master the clinch in Muay Thai.
You have to for effective, like real, true Muay Thai.
And then when I came back, it took me a week or two to adjust.
Yeah.
I was disappointed how stupid my body was.
Like, hey dummy, go to bed now.
I'm telling you, just go to bed now.
Like, I didn't know my body had such a rigid schedule.
When you jack that thing sideways and you're on the other side of the planet, your body just really doesn't know what the fuck is going on.
Seriously, and then for me being stuck in that plane for so long, it was like, ugh.
Yeah, you're too big for them little seats, too.
So when you do that, say if you have a fight in Vegas, and you're going to go from Thailand to Vegas, do you show up two weeks early?
Yeah, well, this is my first time flying back to the States after being in Thailand, and I flew a week early.
No, I flew two weeks early.
One week I stayed in Vegas, and then fight week stayed in Atlanta.
And I think that was perfect timing.
Oh, that's good.
So you've got a little difference in time between those two.
And weather, too, man.
It's so hot.
We train outside, and it's humid and hot.
So between every round, it feels like the third round of a fight.
If we're going into the championship rounds, I've never been there, but I'd imagine that it'd feel very shitty.
And that's how it feels every round in Thailand.
It's just like you're covered in sweat, hot, thick.
Yeah, that was probably like my fifth round or something like that.
Dude, I was dead by this point.
Shout out to the editor for making me not look as tired as I was.
Yeah, so what we're looking at, folks, for the people who are just listening, is a bunch of videos of you training, strength and conditioning, pummeling up against the wall.
So you're getting everything down there.
Yeah, and that's Joseph Henley right there.
He was on the Ultimate Fighter.
I forgot what season.
They called him Leonidas.
Yeah.
He's a black belt out there, and he helped me out a lot, man.
You run into so many different people, and he's like, yeah, black belt, any type of grappling you want, any positions you want to work, we'll go over it, we'll create a system, whatever.
So he was a really big help in this preparation for this fight.
A bunch of free spirits live in there, right?
So many.
But everybody's down there with a goal.
They want to get in shape, they want to get healthier, spiritual path, whatever it may be.
There's something romantic about the expat living in Thailand, having a good time, you know?
If you look at combat sports, I mean, this one that it's so tied into these stadiums.
It's so tied into gambling and betting.
I mean, kids get indoctrinated into it at a very young age.
Super young.
Super young.
there's guys at the gym that i was at um little kids they'd come right after school and they go to muay thai training and they're training just like the older guys and then they go right back to like home eat dinner but that's just their lifestyle so it it starts as a kid it's like go to school muay thai go sleep and then as an adult it's like muay thai feed your family Muay Thai, feed your family.
And they go home maybe two days after a fight just to take care of their families and then come right back to the gym and get ready for the next fight.
Now, of course, at Tiger Muay Thai, you know, you guys, everybody knows various people in different organizations, UFC, Bellator.
What have you?
One FC. But what about those guys that are fighting in those little small Thai gyms and stadiums?
How much access do they have to grappling?
Are they satisfied to just do Muay Thai?
Is there at all a movement in Thailand to start doing MMA? Especially at Tiger.
A lot of those guys are coming over to the MMA and learning jiu-jitsu and wrestling.
One of the guys I was learning to clinch from, he's got probably 300 fights, 300 Muay Thai fights, and he started training MMA and taking MMA fights.
So they're definitely opening their mind to it and hopping in there, and there's access.
in bangkok it's a little different um because that's very like stadium based you know like high level muay thai and uh they're not too focused on mma there are a couple mma gyms but if you want to do that if you want to get the best of both worlds it's in it's in phuket a tiger so in is there any mma at all in bangkok uh They got a couple places, but nothing with pro fighters or any high-level fighters.
But they do have maybe three or four MMA gyms there with just guys stopping in or guys who practice a little bit of everything.
I'm always really interested in countries that figure something out better than everybody else.
When it comes to leg kicking, nobody figured it out any better than the ties.
It's like no one argues that.
No, seriously.
And their shins, man.
I think that's done for.
They don't even feel the front of their legs anymore.
Because they can kick anything.
And they're getting kicks checked.
There's guys that, Joe, they'll fight one night at the stadium.
Go five rounds.
And then sleep and maybe the next day go fight like another small event or a smaller event sometime even in the same night and it's like man aren't you like your shins don't hurt your elbows don't hurt nothing and these guys they're just like they're bulletproof they're used to this man it's crazy wow and they're first time in my life I go into a locker room,
and the red and blue corner is both in the same room, probably as big as this studio, and they're all getting their hands wrapped together, getting massaged out together, everything.
Weird energy in the room.
In the UFC, they separate us.
We have to be separate, whatever purposes.
But in Thailand, they're just hanging out, same room, talking, whatever, and then they just go fight right after.
It's so weird.
The peace, it's so weird, man.
It was the first time I experienced that, and I was like, maybe I can...
Start lightening up a little bit.
Like, it's only a fight.
And that's kind of something I had to tell myself for this one.
I had to, like, really fall back and rely on my training.
Because I was really nervous.
I was nervous to start to try the new stuff that I learned out.
I never threw many leg kicks in any of my fights.
I never really did that stance.
Everything that I did was pretty much brand new.
And I was really nervous.
I was like, what if it doesn't work?
You know, like...
So many different so many different feelings and For this one, I the only thing I can tell myself was like rely on your training and A few other things I actually got.
Um, I got like hypnotized to before.
Yeah, dude Who did to you?
Um, my friend Dominique He has he has this like I met him through one of the one of the other UFC fighters like Julian Marquez.
I met him.
I met him through him and And he's like, oh yeah, I do like hypnotism, all this stuff.
I'm like, okay, cool.
I've done it before I did in California.
And, um, so I think three weeks, two or three weeks prior to the fight, we had a few sessions a week where it just like helped me to really get that visualization clear.
Cause we have so many thoughts all the time.
Right.
And everything just like thoughts are constantly coming in and to stay focused and to really like, like When you go into his office, or wherever you do it, and you guys talk about it, do you set a goal before you start the session?
We do this thing called timeline therapy.
I'm just sitting there with my eyes closed, and we just do this.
We'll pick a subject, whether it's pain, fear, nervousness, something.
We'll just pick a subject, a feeling, whatever's going on.
And it's kind of just like a visual timeline of like, where did this start?
Where did it come from?
What's the event?
Whatever.
And we kind of just talk about that for a while.
And I just kind of dig to this place of where the nervousness is coming from or where the...
You know, where the fear is coming from or whatever.
I kind of just, I find a place on my timeline and I dig from it, whether it's in the future or the past, whatever.
And then we get things clear.
And then after that, he kind of helps me, guides me into this like hypnotism, which is really just like a really deep relaxation.
If I wanted to open my eyes or something like that, I feel like I could, but I wanted to relax.
I wanted this to help.
I wanted my vision to be clear, so I did my best to just surrender to the process.
I'd say it's not something where I woke up and I was like, oh yeah, my life has changed, but I can definitely remember the thoughts that I had so that I can stay more in that lane of what I wanted.
In my hypnotism, I actually visualized not winning the fight because I didn't want to strive too hard to win.
It's just something that I've been kind of studying.
It's like the outcome is not really like the winning or losing.
I don't want to base too much on that.
I just want to put on a great performance.
So, I visualized after one thing, like, just having my hands in the air, seeing my brother smile, my coach's smile, and then slapping hands with the crowd on the way out.
And then I was also like, and I want to see my win bonus and my show money.
And these are the things that I wanted to see.
These are the outcomes that I wanted.
Not so much just, I want to win the fight, but the things that I, like, how I wanted it to happen.
Yeah.
Having that vision clear, it helped me.
And so like everything that I visualized before that, it happened.
I was like, cool, hands raised, slapped hands with everybody on the crowd the way out, signed both my checks.
And that was like, that was the end of it for me until the next session, until I want to get clear on something else, you know?
You kind of just have a conversation in the beginning.
And everything comes from your unconscious mind.
It's not somebody telling you something.
I just dumped out whatever my unconscious mind was telling me.
He was just helping me to like relax, be at peace, and just listen to like my unconscious mind just un...
Unfold all of these kind of like hidden answers that we all have, you know, so that's it now when you Get hypnotized and you're thinking about a specific fight Do you think about specific things you're trying to accomplish things that you think you'll do to him that you'll have an advantage at or strategy or like how do you those were thoughts that were happening and Mm-hmm.
Before my hypnotism.
But then all of those thoughts were coming from the anxiety or coming from the nervousness.
And then my subconscious mind is just like spewing things out.
And then after the process of that mixed with the hypnotism, I'm not even thinking about, oh, I'm going to hit this arm drag or whatever.
I'm thinking about having my conscious clear and my mind clear and everything so that I can get...
The expectation that like, or the visualization that I created.
Yeah.
So, have you tried different versions of that or different styles of hypnosis?
No, not that I can.
I mean, I've done a lot of just like closed eye Like emotional intelligence type of like exercises you know like where I'm just like my eyes are closed and I have someone helping me visualize internally you know like just whether it's dreams or emotional pain or whatever it may be yeah I've had people just like guided meditation almost yeah but the actual name like hypnotism I've only had it done by two people.
Well, when you're watching fighters, I think fighters are one of the most complex puzzles for psychologists.
Because I think it's a super rare state.
Like the rare state that someone gets to where they can be completely calm and see everything in the heat of a dangerous encounter with another trained fighter.
And when you're watching these things play out on TV and you oftentimes see...
How much anxiety plays a factor or doesn't play a factor how much someone having the I don't give a fuck attitude for real it can play it can be a benefit and it can fuck you up sometimes too and to see these complex psychological puzzles play out and see fighters struggle and then regroup have a bad fight and come back better all that stuff is like it's it's really like a giant microscope on the human character And a guy like you who comes
back from that Johnny Walker fight and looks sensational against Eric Anders, man.
That was one of those things where you're like, I like what I'm seeing.
This guy, he figured some shit out, man.
That was incredible.
It was really fun to watch, man.
As a guy who really loves Muay Thai, it was fun to watch.
Thanks, man.
And that's kind of the goal, too, going forward, is that I want to continue to put on stuff like that, continue to learn Muay Thai.
Because that fight kind of raised the bar, right?
People were like, oh, man, this guy kind of put me back on the map.
So now I'm ready to just go back and, you know.
How many guys use mental coaches now, if you had a guess?
A good handful.
A good handful.
Yeah, a good handful.
I know Vinny Shorman.
He hypnotized me, and he hypnotizes a lot of fighters.
Yeah?
Yeah, it was a trip.
It was very strange.
I was like, oh, this is real.
It's a weird feeling, right?
How long ago was it?
It was the old studio, so it had to be at least a year and a half, maybe two years ago.
It was pretty weird, but he's a great mental coach, too, though.
He knows what's creeping around your subconscious, just waiting to pop up and play tricks on you.
I think it's probably one of the least trained aspects of fighting is the mental aspect of it.
You know, you realize how good guys are just by watching them train.
You see them spar, you see them do all these things, you go, damn, this guy's fucking good.
This guy's got great jujitsu.
This guy's got great kickboxing.
You ever hear about the people that, like...
They're sayings, right?
Like, man, that guy's amazing in the gym, but when he shows up to fight, he just doesn't put on.
I've been that guy multiple times, and yeah, a lot of it has to do with mentally.
Yeah, that's almost like an unaddressed giant chunk of the puzzle.
Like a third...
Of the puzzle.
Like if it was a pie.
A third is, keep it together.
You know, when it's ready to go, and now!
And it's all happening, don't freak out.
And you never, like, here's kind of something I think about.
You never know everybody's situation, right?
The day before the fight, we have weigh-ins.
And then Dana comes back and he gives us our speech, right?
So everyone there, you don't know what life position they're in.
So it's like, hey, there's a potential we can get a bonus.
So all those guys are affected emotionally somehow.
You know what I mean?
Some guys maybe they don't care.
Some guys maybe they do.
But then we walk out and then there's a crowd of 15,000 people sold out.
Look around.
We got Joe Rogan sitting here.
We got Mick Maynard sitting here.
We got Dana White.
We got everybody sitting around.
And then, like, we're still human, too, so we're thinking, like, this is kind of like a test, you know?
It's like, we got the whole board right here in front of me ready to take my test, you know?
Yeah, wow.
It really depends on, like, there's so much that goes into it, like, mentally.
You got to be prepared for a lot of things, or some guys block it out, but it's just like anything else.
You had to know about halfway into the first round, some special shit was happening, though.
On this fight?
Yes.
After the first round, I was very happy.
I sat down.
My coaches were like, okay, this is good.
This is good.
You're doing this.
I was like, listen, I don't want to know what's good.
What should I expect the next round?
I was ready to go.
I told this straight to George.
I'm like, dude, I don't care.
What do I need to do next?
What should I prepare for?
And he's like, prepare for a little bit more pressure.
He's probably going to try to shoot for the takedown in this round.
I was like, okay, cool.
So that, I was just looking for that and using my tools to kind of, to just prepare for that.
But definitely midway through the second round, I was like, okay.
Like, I know he's still got a lot of power, all this stuff, but I think that that leg, I should be able to You know, buy some time and take away a little bit of damage, like, coming at me.
I mean, he had to be in agony.
And he never stopped coming.
Yeah.
Like, he didn't wince at all.
Like, even on the cage when I was just, like, when he was on the back and I was trying to kick his leg, his facial expression never changed.
And to do it the way he did it, with 100% of his character intact, never shirked, never shied away from it, kept moving forward, that's a dangerous person.
And he's still getting better.
Oh, yeah.
That guy's just getting better.
Oh, yeah.
How much do you think the hypnosis helped you?
A really good amount, man.
How much different did you feel?
In what way?
I just, I felt more clear.
I feel like a lot of times I can be just kind of like an anxious guy.
I just, I feel like I feel a lot of just energy, like kind of like, I don't know.
I go into a room and I'm just like, ah.
So having the focus on, having my intention set on what I wanted to happen was 70%.
I'd owe 70% of the hypnotism, all that stuff, to just help me to keep my thoughts on track.
Something to fall back onto every single time.
If I felt like I was getting distracted or getting nervous or whatever, I would remember the things that we went over in the hypnotism.
And so every time, just kind of hit that reset button or just a delete button on thoughts that I just didn't want to have or thoughts that would make me feel anything other than happy and ready to go.
Now how often do you practice this?
Do you practice this outside of hypnosis?
Is there like some things you concentrate on or meditate on?
Yeah, so I do my best to just, it's kind of like the weird thing about me is fighting is something that is just kind of happened by accident.
But it's caused me to search for so much peace, like inner peace, because of everything that I go through emotionally being a fighter.
So going from this, I know Shab told you about it, but going from this kid who was just like super overweight my whole life, never fit in with anybody.
I was always just like this introverted, gothic, weird kid that nobody ever talked to.
Never even wanted to fight.
I've always been non-confrontational.
But somewhere in the journey of becoming a fighter, I was like, ah...
This is cool, but I need to find more peace because this is like, it's bringing up way too much, just like, just way too much of my anger, kind of like, you know, from everything that I held on to.
So, I practice meditation, a lot of meditation.
I read a lot of different, I'll study different religions, whatever, wherever I'm at, all just to find peace, man.
How does a non-confrontational guy wind up being an elite cage fighter?
I think if you taught kids how to fight, they would just train and spar, and they would get it all out of their system there, and they'd probably fight a lot less.
It's kind of like in our nature, right?
Yeah.
Everybody's got a curiosity, like, I wonder what it's like.
Yeah, the closest they have to it is the wrestling team.
You can join the wrestling team.
And they will teach you a very important part of fighting.
But other than that, they're not going to teach you how to fight.
But wrestling is kind of like, now at least, it's kind of a loophole.
They don't teach boxing in high school, but they'll teach you how to wrestle.
It doesn't even look like you have anything to do with a wrestler.
I definitely would not click that on Netflix thinking that it was a wrestler movie.
At all.
She was hot as a son, too.
Fun times.
But yeah, that was like the quintessential wrestling movie because he just was dedicated.
And then there was this friend who lied about being a Native American.
Oh, is that what that is?
I was going to say, what's that vest you've got going on?
He just wanted to be different, stand out, but it was a fun movie, man.
It's a fun movie.
I'll have to get into that for sure.
Not a whole lot of movies about wrestling.
That's the least glamorous but probably toughest sport for high school kids to get into.
Definitely.
I stayed away from it, man.
You know, I tried out for volleyball in high school.
I actually made the team, but my grades were terrible, so I never got to play.
But I was a heavyset dude, and I tried out and made it.
I think it was just kind of like a joke, though.
I think the coaches were just messing with me and my friends, too.
When did you get involved in martial arts?
When I was 20, so 2010. So, really quick.
Right after high school, I started...
i started traveling so i used to play in a band i used to play many bands and play guitar i play guitar i play drums i play keyboard a little bit of everything every christmas my mom would just know just give me a new instrument and i'd lock myself in my room and teach myself how to play and that's just always how like music was my first love instruments were my first love You taught yourself?
Yeah, I just put on like headphones and I would just match the sounds and then keep restarting the songs over and over again and then if it were like a keyboard song I'd play it like just on the CD player and you know as it evolved and for some reason I can just I can match tunes with whatever instrument it may be.
I've tried to take guitar lessons before, but it didn't work for me.
My mom was just wasting her money.
I was learning, but it was kind of like school for me.
I had a teacher, he told me, okay, this chord and this chord, and I was like, ah, like...
Just let me feel it.
I gotta feel it.
I can hear it.
I can feel it.
I'll get it.
So I stopped going.
How many people do it like that?
I'm not sure.
I know there's a lot of people that can just kind of play by ear.
I just love instruments.
I'll pick anything up and just start playing it and end up teaching myself how to play.
Drums, bass, guitar, keyboard.
I played the stand-up bass in middle school.
I've got like a little home production like beat studio at home all that stuff so after high school I started touring and That's when, like, I started getting my heaviest.
We were eating fast food every single day, three times a day, never drank water, soda only, smoking, like, a pack and a half of cigarettes a day, and just on the road traveling.
And then by 19, I got up to 305 pounds, 19 years old.
And I remember one night laying down to go to bed, and I just felt my heart pumping ridiculously.
And I was just like, no way.
This, like...
I think I'm gonna die and like I woke up in a panic and Weird thing is I got up and I went outside for maybe like 10 minutes and I smoked another cigarette And I was just like this is the problem like I'm coughing up stuff my heart is Gonna give out and I'm only 19 years old,
you know so around that same week Is when I discovered MMA with my brother just like watching ultimate fighter on TV and I went on my last tour, and I told the guys, like, hey, I'm going to go train MMA. They're like, oh, you're going to be a fighter?
And I was just like, I don't know what I'm going to be, but I'm going to go train and get healthy.
And they're like, okay, cool.
We'll see you in a couple months.
No one really believed that I was going to go and actually train and fight.
I told you guys have always been this big, quiet, non-confrontational guy.
So...
Yeah, I went and took my first class Muay Thai and March 1st, 2010, took my first Muay Thai class.
And then after like a month of doing Muay Thai, I started to see progression.
I started to see like my face was slimming down, all this stuff.
So it gave me motivation to keep going.
And then I remember going to a MMA event, amateur, and I saw really big heavyweight guys going at it.
So I was like, ah, I think I want to do it.
I want to give it a try.
And so my coach was like, okay, if you lose 100 pounds, I'll find you a fight.
And I was like, 100 pounds?
He's like, yeah, I'll find you a fight if you lose 100 pounds.
So I just kept training within 11 months, lost 100 pounds, and then took my first fight.
And then it's just been like, every fight has been...
Until now, because now I have more of a drive and a passion for it.
But all the way up until then, everything kind of happened by coincidence.
I didn't really want to fight, but I had a lot of people like, oh, you're so good, keep doing it.
And that was the first time in my life I've ever had people supporting me to really do something that was big.
And I was a new guy, and I was in shape, and I could...
Girls are noticing me now.
My whole life changed within a year of training MMA. From going to this guy that nobody even paid attention to, to just like, oh, hey, how's it going?
Or like, oh, you're so in shape.
And I was just like, oh, this is weird.
It's still weird.
It's only been nine years, eight years.
So everything's still very new to me.
My first day stepping on the mat was like...
You know, nine years ago.
Dude, that's an amazing story.
It's crazy.
That's like a legit success story.
Yeah, it's...
You know?
Is that you?
What kind of ridiculous ringtone do you have, sir?
And then with three or four fights, and then I tried out for the Ultimate Fighter.
So I had like three or four fights in one year being a pro.
And then the Ultimate Fighter Trials came out and I tried out for that and made it on.
And I was like, oh shit.
So most of my career has been in the UFC. Wow.
Yeah.
When you hear about fighters, particularly boxers, you hear a really well-managed boxer will get fights to test him, but with a guy that you could beat.
And you learn a different thing from each different fighter as you move out the ladder.
And way more of them are undefeated.
When they finally get a shot at either a title or a top contender.
But in MMA, you could be fighting the top-level guys within a couple of years of joining.
It could honestly be a couple years prior to that if you're particularly talented where you picked up martial arts.
Like Ngannou, perfect example.
Francis Ngannou is an incredible example because he's really only done MMA for five years and he's still, right now, the scariest guy In that cage.
Exactly.
When he's throwing bombs away, you just go...
When he knocked out Overeem, that was an unheard of knockout.
Yeah, I sparred with him in preparation for that fight.
And I actually almost got hit with that same punch.
But yeah, Francis and I went three rounds in the cage.
And then I remember Forrest was there and John, the head coach of Syndicate...
And they were like, okay, you guys, tone it down, because we were going at it.
I mean, it was fun.
I like to go hard.
How often, though?
How often do I like to go hard?
Every now and then.
Do you do mostly technical?
Yeah, so like in Thailand right now, it's like everyday technical, one day sparring, or one or two days sparring.
And when you say sparring, MMA sparring?
MMA sparring, yeah.
And then the other days are just like technical grappling and technical striking, and then, you know, wrestling, and then, yeah, spar on Fridays.
Now, when they break it up, do you have someone who makes your schedule for you, like for the week?
Do you have all your training routines, like what your schedule set up for, morning, evening?
Do you have that planned out in advance?
So, for instance, the gym has a schedule of all the classes, but the head MMA coach, George, would help me out.
Like, hey, if you're getting ready for a fight, show up to these, these, and these, and I'll help you.
Well, the MMA class is more like, so there's a class of MMA, one personal going over like my specific things that I like to work on and want to work on.
And then maybe whoever's mimicking the opponent.
And then in the morning Muay Thai.
So for me, it's always great to start the morning off with Muay Thai.
Wake up first thing, have coffee.
Do my 5-6K run, train Muay Thai for two hours, eat, go do MMA personal, and then do the MMA class at the end.
And then go relax after.
That routine for me can work every day.
And it does.
Everything's disciplined.
To do the same thing every day is very common in Thailand.
And I think that's why I was able to put that performance on and use that many kicks because we throw so many in one day.
You know what I mean?
What's different about the training there?
There's not really classes.
For MMA, there's not much talking.
In Muay Thai, there's no talking.
They tell you what to do a little bit, like punch, kick, knee, teep, five times, 10 times, 20 times.
It's a lot of repetition.
And the same thing in the MMA class.
George gives us a lot of time to drill and drill at our own pace and things like that before we go live.
And I think that that's what's helped me the most is less talking, more drilling.
Show me one or two things.
We're mixed martial artists.
We're going to create something off of it.
It's okay.
And just let us drill it.
Let us drill it.
Walk around, correct if you need to, but I think people need to spend more time drilling on the mat, go live every now and then just so you can feel what you're at.
But the only way you're going to get good is by drilling.
Yeah, it's just not as fun.
Exactly.
But it's training.
I don't think training should be fun.
You tell a dog to sit a hundred times.
You've got to give him some type of treat.
The problem is certain parts of training are fun, right?
Which is probably one of the reasons why you like striking.
Exactly.
It's fun.
That part for me, I can just...
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I really believe that psychologists should study fighters, study high-level fighters to try to figure out what makes them tick, because there's all these different versions.
You're a different version.
You, the 300-pound guy that decides to lose all this weight, and now you're one of the best fighters in the 205-pound division of the UFC. It's crazy, man.
I mean, that's a wild story.
It'd be really cool, though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe he'll get one.
Psychology studies on fighters is almost mandatory.
Because there's certain guys that, like, they're just impenetrable.
You know?
There's certain guys that just, they just, like, Khabib.
It's impenetrable.
Like, you're not, the more shit you talk, the more he's gonna fuck you up when he gets a hold of you.
Like, it's not working, man.
It's not getting in there.
And then there's certain guys that, like, sometimes they're hot, and sometimes they get rattled, and You know?
It's a crazy endeavor, what you guys do.
It really is.
Yeah, it definitely is, man.
I think a documentary or something would be really cool, too.
Yeah.
I think a lot of people and the fans need to see kind of a little bit more of the inside, the real stuff, you know?
The real stuff, like one of the craziest responses that I've been getting lately is people have hit me up on Instagram.
Like, I can't believe you're just a normal guy.
Like you're posting songs and, you know, like doing all that.
I'm like, yeah, I'm human just like everybody else.
Like I think a lot of fans kind of forget that.
I think we as fighters sometimes forget too.
Like, hey, like for a little bit you can shut it off and be normal, you know?
It's, I mean, the balancing act is, it's a strange thing to ignore.
You know, the balancing act that a fighter has to have with their personality, with training and competing and then just being a normal person and the highs and the lows and managing all the stress of an upcoming fight.
And you're just sort of asked to go it on your own.
Like, hey, good luck.
Keep your shit together.
Yeah.
In the face of flying fists.
And it sucks too because the higher we go up, then it's just like...
It's kind of hard to go anywhere behind, right?
It's like we're working to get to the top as fighters, and we want to be known, but the higher that we go, the more obligations, media, people want to talk to you, all this stuff, so your time kind of gets short.
I was thinking about it last time, like, damn, like...
Getting to the top is going to kind of suck.
Media week or fight week for everybody at the top.
They're like, press conference, this, that, that.
I'm the type of guy where I just relax.
I'll definitely need a psychologist or something to help me out.
More hypnotism, for sure.
I don't know how much they do at the UFC Performance Institute as far as mindset training.
Do they do any of that over there?
Not that I've seen.
That place is insane.
Have you had a chance to train there at all?
Yeah, I did two fight camps there when I used to live in Vegas.
It's amazing.
It's a crazy place.
It was a little too good for me.
I started feeling a little bit spoiled.
I was like, I've got to go run out in the street.
I can't be running out of these...
Nice treadmills, man.
I mean, to have a place like that where the company creates this super high-level training environment that there's not another gym like it on the planet Earth.
On the planet.
And then they just decide, like, hey, go ahead and work out there for free.
I'm struggling to make 205. Not struggling, but it hurts to make 205 now, so I couldn't even imagine.
It sucked.
What would you think about if they abandoned weight cutting?
They just opened up more weight classes and abandoned weight cutting.
I mean, I wouldn't mind it.
I would like to see that.
Don't you think it would be better for the fighters?
I think it would be better for the fighters and we'd see some really cool matchups.
You know what I mean?
Because there's some guys that cut a lot of weight and there's some matchups that would be really cool at different weights too.
I think it's one of those dumb things that's existed in the past and we never corrected.
I think we should stop it.
It's not helping anybody.
To lose weight for a fight so that you can be fit and in great shape, yeah, okay, sure.
But how do you go about that?
But I mean, losing weight in training, not like massive dehydration for weight cut day, and then rehydration the next day for fight day.
I think it's a crazy strain that guys are doing to their kidneys and their bodies.
I mean, many fighters have told me that they don't feel like they can take a body shot as well when they cut a lot of weight.
Yeah, sometimes my head, I remember in the Johnny Walker fight, I had cut, excuse me, it could have been from the weight cut, but that morning, if I even tapped on my jaw, I just felt like my head was just off, like rattly.
Really?
Yeah, I felt very sensitive.
You think that's from the weight cut?
The same night, I get knocked out.
I don't know what it was from, but I remember feeling that morning when I woke up, Because usually I, like, I'll shake everything off.
I'll, like, you know, like, punch myself in the jaw, all that stuff, just to get ready for the fight.
And I remember that that morning when I was, like, tapping myself on the jaw, my head just didn't feel right.
Five miles and then hitting and kicking pads for five to ten rounds a day, clinching 45 minutes a day.
Like, clinching after every session, it's like you run, knee bag, sit-ups, all that stuff.
Second session is kick the bag three to five rounds until a trainer picks you up.
Like, for me, I had to wait for a trainer to actually even, like, want to hold pads for me.
If you just show up, you'll just be hitting the bag until the trainer was like, hey, okay, I'll hold for you.
And then once you actually find a trainer that wants to work with you, Then, whatever their schedule is for you, they'll create it.
They'll hold pads, you'll kick the bag, you'll do push-ups, you'll do sit-ups, and then clinch 30 to 45 minutes after.
It's the same thing every single day.
Wow.
And do you ever worry that this might be something that would be monotonous because you're doing the same way every day?
Or do you think we just concentrate on excellence?
No, because it's also like going to the fights and there's so many different styles.
So like people are doing the same thing every day, the repetition.
But...
The styles are completely different.
Nobody fights like Sanchai, right?
He does the same thing everybody else does, but he has his own style.
You know what I mean?
Or some guys will do the same thing, but they don't even like to kick or knee.
They just like to throw elbows.
I know plenty of guys like that.
You know that when he goes, he's just throwing elbows all five rounds.
This guy's just gonna throw knees.
So, it's just like, which tools do you use the best?
Are you a knee-er?
Are you a kicker?
Are you an elbow guy?
Are you a left kicker?
Are you a low kicker?
It's kind of like, which strikes are your thing?
And then you go watch the chaos, and these guys are getting split open every night.
On the stretchers, they take them stretchers on the ring, man.
It's amazing.
It's like, not to see someone get hurt, but just the fact that these guys are all out brawling every night.
Every single night, there's a fight at the stadium.
and Thursday nights are the nights that like the higher guys go and they're packed with people thousands of people like the one I went to there was a few thousand people there for the stadium it looked packed and everyone's betting like oh and then when the kicks land they're like oh the energy is crazy they never showed up man I'm getting hyped thinking about it getting back to Thailand right now how did Sanchai figure out how to do Muay Thai different than anybody
Man, he's so interesting with his quick switches of the feet and even the way he throws kicks, he's just got a little different flavor to everything he does.
I don't think he can help it.
You know what I mean?
There's just something about the guy's character.
His fighting is him.
He's kind of outgoing, just a weird, funky guy, and it makes sense that he fights like that.
Like, he doesn't really, like, turn all of his upper body like a lot of the ones I've seen.
Right.
He's a volume guy, but he knocks guys out with one shot, too.
Look at that catch.
He didn't even, like, it just instinctual, you know?
Like, he didn't even think about it.
Didn't even flinch.
He's so good.
Checked.
Up.
Swipe.
It's interesting when you think of how many different people are doing it and that this one guy stands out.
I love outliers, man.
So that's one thing that I learned compared to watching Muay Thai in the States and then going there, the amount of kicks and knees that they're throwing.
I'm looking at fighting like, okay, when's the next punch gonna happen?
These guys throwing kick after kick after kick for five rounds.
I was like, okay, I'm definitely not kicking enough, so I gotta start kicking.
Being in Thailand definitely helped me to learn the importance of kicking.
So we were talking about the shoot box style.
Rafael Cordero, who is absolutely one of the best Muay Thai striking coaches on the planet.
It's funny that he's such a nice guy, and he trained the most murderous crew of angry Brazilians.
They had Anderson Silva, they had Vanderlei, and when Vanderlei Shogun...
Look at that photo with Rafael Codera.
Oh my god, Rafael Shogun.
Yeah.
Dude, that's a fucking team of assassins.
Another one that's got like Pele, everybody in it.
Yes, that's right.
Anderson.
Pele, too.
They were some hard men.
The guy who taught me Muay Thai, Michael Costa, he was from that same group.
I really, to this day, do not understand why Muay Thai is not more popular.
I've never understood it.
It's so exciting to watch.
I was like, if we had a league in America that people understood who the fighters were, got to know them and root for them.
You know, like you see with boxing, with Terrence Crawford.
He's prime right now.
Yeah.
You know, he's on top of the world.
I want to see a guy like that in Muay Thai.
And I think it would be the same thing.
I think Americans would jump on board if they understood how exciting it is.
Yeah.
You see a lot of...
You see...
A good handful of foreigners and Americans in Thailand to go watch Muay Thai.
And I thought the same thing.
Like, man, they got to get this out here.
Let's figure it out.
You and me, let's figure it out.
What are they missing?
What's missing?
Dana White has a good point.
He thinks that culturally we won't accept kickboxing after PKA karate from like the 1980s.
That's right before my time.
I was born in 90. Guys would throw these little kicks because they had to throw like eight kicks around.
You know?
And then they would have, like, a sloppy boxing match some of the time.
There were some really good guys that fought in there, too.
Like, real high-level guys, like Benegett or Kiedes, fought in PKA, and, you know, a lot of, like, really, really good strikers.
But it was...
There was nothing compelling about it.
It wasn't something that you wanted to watch all the time.
But if you could watch some of the best Muay Thai fights that you've ever seen, and you could watch them on television, just show people on television some crazy wars that you and I have seen from the past, how could you not like that?
If you like striking, how could you not like guys who are experts in bone smashing?
Dude, that's why...
I have a lot of love, too, for, like, I'm a huge One Championship fan.
Yeah, that's like that guy, Nasty Ukin, who just knocked out Eddie Alvarez?
Yep.
He trained a tiger.
Dude, that guy's legit.
Yeah, I remember...
Did you train with him at all?
No, well, alongside him.
I didn't personally train with him, but I remember one day, we were training, and he was the last one on the mat, and our wrestling coach, Frank, was like...
He said something like...
10 more sprawls and you beat Eddie Alvarez or something.
The guy's just grinding.
He's just digging himself into the mat.
It was cool to watch him prepare for that fight.
There's guys like that.
He trains there all the time and he beat Eddie Alvarez.
That's a big deal.
I think it's a big factor over there too that they don't cut weight.
I think that's a big factor.
If you're used to being the bigger fighter all the time, and then all of a sudden now you're not, now no one's cutting any weight.
I mean, they have some sort of a system.
Ben Askren was explaining it to me.
I don't really remember how it works, but there's some sort of a system where they stop you from weight cutting.
They check your hydration levels.
They check your hydration levels, yep.
You've got to be...
It's the right way to do it.
He's correct.
He's smart.
It's the right way to do it.
We should have done it a long time ago in the UFC. I really think that.
All the weight cut issues, all that stuff, like ruining cards, it would all be eliminated, right?
Ruining cards, and even more importantly, I think, causing fighters to fight at less than their full potential.
How many fighters got hit when they shouldn't have gotten hit because if they were recovered, We're good to go.
The training would be a lot better, too, because a lot of fighters spend the last three weeks, four weeks of their camp trying to lose weight.
Just trying to lose weight.
And that's a whole month of learning and building strength and all that stuff that you could do.
So, I don't know.
I think it'd be awesome.
The only argument for it is that the guys are tough enough to do it and cut a shitload of weight, have this massive size advantage, and sometimes it allows them to win.
And they think they should be able to do it because they're tough enough to cut all that weight.
Yeah, I get it.
I mean, it's hard to do.
You have to be a strong person.
But I just don't think it's good for anybody.
I don't think it's good for the athletes.
I don't think it's good for the sport.
I don't think it's good for anybody.
It's just an old way.
It's just an old thing that people are doing so they don't have to fight the bigger people.
You know, it's crazy because I have to answer that question a lot for people who don't.
Like, some of my friends are just like, oh, like...
They'll hit me up like, hey, I'm like, I can't talk this week.
Like, I got to cut weight.
Like, it's not a good time.
I can't talk.
And they're like, how do you lose 20 pounds in a day?
And why do you do that?
You know, I'm just like, I don't know how to explain it.
It's just because that's what we do.
You know, there's not really...
It's just what I have to do.
When you see certain fighters get on the scale, though, like Conor McGregor when he made 145, looked like a zombie man, like a Walking Dead character.
What a crazy transition, though, to go in a 10-year span from being a guy who's really overweight and worried you're going to die to being an elite UFC fighter.
Yeah.
Life for me is happening now.
This is kind of the beginning of everything for me.
It's really cool.
It's really cool.
And I'm glad that I found mixed martial arts.
Just because it gives me...
It's a journey, man.
It's not just UFC. It's just like finding MMA and diving into different cultures and lifestyles and understandings and sometimes philosophies.
All this stuff just to understand, just to put it all together, just to have it all make sense at the end of the day.
It's been a beautiful thing, man.
I've been able to meet a lot of people, go a lot of places, like...
I'm very thankful and I'm very just like, I'm okay with life, you know?
That's very good to hear, man.
That's a cool thing to hear.
I love hearing that.
You're cool with life.
Yeah, you're on a great path, man.
And it's also what's inspiring about it for other people is your story of being at a place where you weren't like that before.
And your story of being overweight and smoking cigarettes and feeling like shit.
And then now you're like for so many people out there that gives people hope.
That gives them a thought like maybe if I just figure this out, I actually can't.
Maybe life doesn't suck.
Maybe it just sucks the way I'm living.
Maybe if I could just figure out this path in a positive direction, I can change everything.
I could be like you right now.
What was the exact quote?
I'm happy with life.
You're cool with life.
You're cool with life.
You're happy with life.
That is a great quote.
Most people don't get to that spot.
And the crazy thing is, too, I didn't have this dream to be in the UFC. I made a choice to just go get healthy.
Yeah, I do.
It was like a short, just a short step in the right direction.
What propelled you to take the first fight if you were just trying to get healthy?
A lot of encouragement and the first time really hearing people being good at something that I was surrounded by.
Fighters and guys who believed in me and like who cared and like wanted to see me get better and Tougher and I was getting my ass kicked every day and that was something that wasn't used to Just being in that environment I had at the time learning I had a very strong team like I started at Vanderlei school when he was still fighting so a lot of the guys it was like shoot the box style.
It's like Everyone's getting knocked out every training.
Somebody gets knocked out really very hard And that was new for me, to get into things like that.
He was even doing that in Vegas.
Oh, yeah, man.
I remember helping him get ready for the...
Either it was like Brian Sand or Chris Lieben, and throwing full-on elbows in the cage, no pad.
Like, we're going at it.
Like, my jaw was dislocated, everything.
But it was just like, what we learned was to just always fight.
Now I realize that I've only been doing this a short time and I already feel aches and pains and stuff and I don't want it to be like that when I'm older.
So I'm a lot more smart about my training.
Do you think it was a critical aspect of your success, though, to have gone through the fire like that?
Being a guy who's overweight, insecure, all these things, never going on hikes.
My dad passed away when I was younger.
Like, very young.
And so I never had my dad to encourage me to go throw a ball or anything, play sports, or be a man, be a boy, be a, you know, just be.
I was always, like, kind of sheltered by my mom.
And she was more, like, protective, like, ah, don't go do that.
And then she finally learned to just, like, set me free.
But I needed to know what I was made of, man.
I needed to know what I was made of in...
In the realm of men.
Fighting.
Whatever it took.
Blood.
Tears.
Sweat.
The same thing they say.
I didn't know what that was like.
I never got a taste of it.
So going through it in a real way.
Actually getting my ass beat and having to find my way out of it.
Can't run from it.
Still, it's people that cared about me too.
It was just a great thing to have.
Now, I enjoy it.
I enjoy a really good hard fight.
You know, there's something about it.
Well, you're enjoying your progress, too.
Your change of who you are as a person.
You're strengthening.
How far into your training were you like 100% all-in committed like that?
I think it was after my loss to Tyson Pedro, which was my second fight in the UFC. Before, everything was still kind of very fun and games, and I was like, oh, I get to travel, go to Australia, fight in Australia.
So it was a big shock to be in the UFC, especially not even expecting to be there within just a few years.
So after losing that fight is when I met my friend and at the time my strength and conditioning coach Lorenzo.
And he had been through like pararescue school and things like that.
So he helped me to just develop this mentality of like how far will your mind take you?
How big is your will?
And when training with him and doing kind of like pararescue survival training for conditioning...
That was a point where I started to say, okay, I'm going to take this full on.
I know I can fight hard, but now I know how far my will can go in the face of the elements and everything.
So putting those two together, going after it, and then the fight I took after that was Daniel Jolly.
And then I ended that in the first round with a knee, and then I fought Paul Craig in Scotland.
And I had this same mentality.
Like, I'm going forward.
I'm getting better.
I'm going to grow stronger, better, harder.
Like, everything.
And...
Then the fight to the Polish guy, Michael Alexejuk.
Have you seen him lately?
No.
He just beat like John Vellante and I forgot his last fight.
Well, the difference between MMA grappling and regular grappling, too, used to always be, one of the big ones, at least I should say, was leg locks.
They thought you really couldn't get away with leg locks as much in MMA, because as you're going for the legs, you have two arms committed to the legs, someone's just going to punch you in the face, and you don't have defense for it.
But now you're seeing, when guys like Iminari burst on the scene and started ripping guys' knees apart, you see how effective that is, and then Paul Harris.
Are you a leg locker?
No, no.
You don't like Legolas?
I'm scared of it.
They're scary, huh?
They're so infatuated.
I've had three knee operations and two reconstructions.
He tried to get out, and Ryan Hall just locked it up.
Oh, I just imagine the feeling right now.
I always tap early.
Well, once that stuff gets chewed up inside there, that's the problem.
I mean, some people could just take it, but once you start ripping meniscus apart and cartilage apart, once that stuff starts happening, ligaments start getting stretched out and rip a little bit, and they're always going to be wiggly.
So, I mean, even Gordon Ryan just ripped his fucking leg apart.
He understands all the various possible exchanges and what's the best way to stop the defense, push the offense, control the situation.
What is the ultimate control position I have to get to?
Do I have to get on the inside?
Do I grab it this way?
Do I grab it that way?
Once they started really experimenting and putting it together and putting it into a system, and you see how these guys, who have only been doing jiu-jitsu for a few years, like Nicky Ryan and Gordon Ryan, they start tapping all these really legit guys.
They're like, what the fuck is happening?
What are they doing over there?
He's got a Kimura system, headlock system, everything.
I think that helps a lot, just when it comes to training, learning things in systems.
You know what I mean?
I think 10th Planet has their own type of system, right?
Oh, for sure.
And it helps.
It definitely helps.
Yeah.
Same system, right?
Yeah, all systems help, man.
And then fighters devise their own system really often.
They have their own entries and their own ways of defending things.
But the leg lock game is so unexpected.
Because I always thought they were a good technique if you can get it, but it's not that high percentage in MMA. That was kind of how I felt.
You didn't see too many of them.
I don't know why.
We had a few guys that were really good in the early days, like Oleg Taktarov and some other guys who were really good, but we didn't have the level that you have like a Paul Harris.
Diving on things, transitioning from one thing to the next, and then locking you up in a position where you better tap quick, because if you don't, you're going to be screaming.
Do you think a lot of the times it's those guys the other guys' fault, or does he really just hold too long?
He definitely holds too long.
He has.
There's one fight from Brazil where it's crazy.
He's just not letting go.
He's just holding on to something.
I forget what it was, but he was not letting go.
And they were trying to separate him, and he was still hanging on to it.
I think he came from a really, really bad childhood.
And he's talked about it in depth, about growing up on a farm and being forced to eat pig slop when he was a little boy.
That cut that he has on his chest, that big scar, he had sealed that up with glue.
Yeah, like crazy shit.
Actually, I've met him before a few times through some friends, and he seems like a cool guy.
Yeah, he does.
Genuine.
I just think when he's in competition, man, he just doesn't want to let it go.
And they make him let it go, and he tried, even though he knew that they were going to get mad at him if he didn't let go, still didn't quite let go.
Yeah.
And they're like, get the fuck out of here.
They kicked him out of the UFC, the first guy ever to get kicked out of the UFC for holding on to submissions.
Oh, he got kicked out?
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Do you know who he held it against?
I don't know, but I want to make sure that that's true.
I think it is.
That Husamar Paul Harris was the first guy to ever get kicked out of the UFC. And I think the last one they got kicked out for was like, any normal person wouldn't even have gotten in trouble for that one.
My last jiu-jitsu competition was probably two years ago, two and a half years ago.
Naga.
Just like, it was random.
Just like a random, like, oh, okay, I'll do Naga today.
Well, there are some MMA fighters that are at a high enough level of grappling that they can compete against really elite grapplers in jiu-jitsu matches.
You know, like Chad Mendes, remember he had that, That match with Jeff...
Fuck, why am I blanking on his name?
Jeff Glover.
Jeff Glover.
Really?
I didn't know that.
Yeah, I think he choked him out.
Chad Mendes choked out Jeff Glover.
I think he took his back and tapped him.
I think they were using the Eddie Bravo invitational rules.
Make sure that's true.
Which you start on someone's back in overtime.
You go to a certain distance.
Is that Chael Sonnen's?
It is.
It's Chael Sonnen's organization.
In which case, I'm pretty sure they use the EBI rules.
So he got his back through sort of one of those overtime positions.
But he still tapped him.
And the other one is Uriah Faber.
Uriah Faber's pretty fucking elite.
Pretty fucking elite.
Jeff Glover's an animal.
Oh my god.
I love that guy.
Super, super technical.
You know?
And very dangerous.
And relaxed, right?
Big time stoner.
Yeah.
So they must have set him up on his back.
This doesn't show it.
It just shows him have the back.
Man, that's a hell of a fucking rear naked right there.
So there's a few guys, but it's really hard to be the master of everything, right?
Yeah, for sure.
So for you, is there a balance where you're like, am I spending enough time grappling?
Am I spending enough time striking?
Do you ever, like, wonder what the correct formula is, or do you tinker with it at all?
I have wondered, and I always wonder, but I can't, like...
So...
A long time ago, maybe a few years ago, Anderson told me, listen, you need jiu-jitsu.
You need it.
He's like, it saved my life.
I love to strike too, but when I learned jiu-jitsu, it changed my life.
You need to learn it.
Put on a gi.
Let's roll.
You're right there in the living room.
I was just like, okay.
One of the things that I learned from him is just, he's like, Learn the basic stuff.
Like, learn the basic stuff.
Get really good at it.
And then, like, use it to save yourself.
And you'll end up growing.
He's like, just keep training jiu-jitsu.
You don't need this whole crazy secret system at the moment.
Just make sure that you're training jiu-jitsu and continue to learn jiu-jitsu.
You know, like...
So, that's kind of my takeaway from the conversation.
So, I just make sure that when I'm training, at least I'm doing jujitsu.
You know, like, I focus on it, make sure that I'm getting better, make sure that I'm going with guys that are way better than me.
So, I'm always getting my ass kicked, but at least I'm always going with guys that are better than me all the time.
I enjoy it, but I'm a striker.
That's it.
I enjoy it.
I know that I need it.
It's my job.
I know that it can get dangerous if I go against a guy who's a high-level jiu-jitsu.
I know that.
I understand that.
And I'm very aware of it every time that I train.
So I make sure that I do my job and I go to jiu-jitsu class, but I'm a striker and I'm always going to be focused on...
That's always going to be my go-to.
Anybody, whether it's a striker or a grappler, I don't care.
I'm going to train striking and I'm going to train jiu-jitsu too, but I'm going to my striking, always.
Do you think that that is like you're letting everybody know?
Are you trying to trick people and then next fight you're going to shoot on folks?
I don't need to shoot.
I'll shoot if I need to.
If I'm getting my ass kicked, then I need to take a desperation shot.
But you would rather just let them know that you're coming out striking.
I want to strike.
I believe you do, and you're very good at it.
But one of the things that's interesting about real high-level MMA, when you look at the guys who have been legendarily successful, like George St. Pierre or Mighty Mouse, two great examples, one of the things is you never knew what the fuck they were going to do to you.
And that overloading the mind with possibilities is a part of their success.
It's like, how much of a part?
It's a good question.
Do you think that there's an argument for using the skills that you have, which are quite spectacular, with that sort of style?
Sort of style that incorporates way more takedowns, way more takedown attempts, way more feints, just different combinations of things so you never know what the fuck is happening at any given time.
Or do you think that it's better To just be the best striker you can, and that'll be enough.
I'm sure that guy trains a lot of grappling as well.
And it shows if he gets in positions, he's knocked out guys from weird positions.
But when people watch him fight, they want to see...
They trust in his stand-up.
They're like, oh, this guy's going to do some crazy stuff.
And I kind of want to be able to do the same thing.
Not crazy, like, you know, worldly stuff, but when people watch me fight, they know what to expect, and that's just like bulletproof striking, you know?
Yeah, that fight was very unexpected.
The way Paul Daly decided to take him down.
I was pretty stunned.
I didn't think we were going to see that.
Paul Daly is so dangerous.
His fucking left hook is one of the best in all of the business.
Left hand, period.
Any way he throws it.
Both of them knew what they were going up against, though.
Even behind the shit talk, they knew it was a tough fight for both of them.
It was, but it was interesting to me watching Paige use his distance and that crazy karate point style and that, you know...
He had to really look out for that stuff.
I mean, he had to make sure that he wasn't getting dinged by that stuff.
When he's coming in with a...
Because Venom throws all this wild stuff.
Almost like a fencer dives in on you and pops you.
And you could tell Paul Daly was really having a hard time finding that range.
Yeah, it's harder to fight against guys that are long and know how to use their body, like athletically.
Is he fighting Douglas Lima next?
Is that what's happening over in Bellator?
I remember seeing that Douglas Lima had a fight, but I don't remember who the opponent was.
That would be hard for them to do, though, because you'd have to justify it.
Like, what if they got hurt, and they couldn't fight in a card, and then the UFC, like, loses an asset?
You know, they would think of it in terms of, like, a possible main event, like, player.
Like, if there's a guy who's top of the food chain, dude, and he says, I want to take one Muay Thai fight, and then he tears his MCL, and then six months later, still not ready to fight.
They should do it, like, if you're not, like, if you're the top 15, you can't do it.
Yeah, that's not a bad idea.
But if you're not even ranked, then...
Go ahead.
Go crazy.
It's going to be a while before...
They'll let you do a jiu-jitsu tournament, though, right?
Jiu-jitsu's fine.
That's fucking dangerous, too, though.
Yeah.
You can go against a guy like Paul Harris.
Yeah, but Shob did that.
I think it'd be cool, man.
Shob fought the other cyborg.
Which one?
Ricardo Abreu.
Oh, that guy.
That guy.
Yeah, he was one of my jiu-jitsu trainers at Vanderlei's.
Yeah, he didn't want to get his legs ripped apart.
I think I remember that.
That might have been the time where Schaub was over at Black House.
I think he was in a...
He was going to go do that.
Well, his point of view was like, look, I have to fight.
I'm not going to get my leg torn apart.
Take me down.
Do something.
You don't even do anything.
It's not worth it.
And then later, he did sit in his guard, but he couldn't do anything to him.
It was mostly defensive.
He basically shut his jiu-jitsu down, though.
I mean, he really did do that.
If you really stop and think about it.
I mean, Cyborg wanted to do something, and he stalled him out.
It's not a fun thing to watch, and it's not good if you're Cyborg.
Yeah.
But...
If a guy could stall you out, like that's a weird, in a grappling situation, that's a weird situation.
Someone just defenses you, just pushes you off, never attacks, just keeps pushing you off.
Yeah, what do you do?
What do you do?
Yeah.
I mean, and how much of your jiu-jitsu is based on someone that's willing to engage?
It's a problem.
It's a big problem.
When guys go to the ground, oftentimes you'll see them almost not even securing a position, just thinking this position will maintain this way because it is in training all the time.
Because guys are just lying on top of you and you're in your guard.
Instead of just jumping out of your guard, going knee to belly and smashing you in the face, you think you can catch a little break because you do all the time in training.
You really see that with jiu-jitsu players sometimes.
They forget.
They have to hold on.
Especially guys that are used to training with the gi.
And then they're in an MMA fight, and the guy's on top of him, and they think they're trying to set up an arm bar or something like that, and that people are just like, nope, I'm just going to get out of here.
I'm just chilling.
I'm going to get out of the spot.
Do you still train in Gi?
Yeah.
Where do you train?
John Jock.
The last time I did it was two weeks ago, three weeks ago.
It might have been more.
Me and Russell Peters.
We've done it a couple of times.
We did it in Malibu, too.
He's a good dude, man.
John Jack Machado's awesome.
Yeah, I heard good things about him.
He's awesome.
Couldn't be a nicer person.
And just really, really technical.
Really good at breaking things down.
Really good at explaining things.
The big gym?
It's a good size, you know.
He'll get like 60 people there in a noon class sometimes, though.
It's only for, like, only MMA people and jiu-jitsu people know about it.
Exactly.
Everyone wants to get it.
You go try to hit the streets with that joke, they'll be like, what are you saying?
I'm almost positive he's a black belt.
He's a very legit martial artist.
That's pretty cool.
His dad was a karate instructor, too.
He's a bad motherfucker.
He's a real martial artist.
That character is just so funny.
Yeah.
I gotta meet him.
We can arrange that.
That'd be cool as shit.
So what is next for you after this past fight?
What do they do?
Do they give you some time to recover and then hit you with some options?
Does your management contact the UFC? How does it work?
Yeah, it could be management contacting them or just UFC reaching out just to see when I'll be ready.
But since the fight, I just took a little bit of time off to see the family.
It's been a while since I've seen them.
Did they ever offer you a short notice fight?
I've gotten offered a short notice fight before.
A long time ago, I got offered that Gustafson fight.
It was like a long shot.
I didn't think I was going to get it, but I was down.
I was like, yeah, I'll take it.
And it was like, I think 10 days notice, 7 days notice at the one in LA. But it didn't happen.
And then I offered to be the replacement for the fight in Sao Paulo that Eric Anders stepped in for.
Against Thiago?
It was either going to be against him or Manoa.
Who was supposed to fight first?
Thiago?
He was like...
Someone pulled out of that card.
I'm not sure.
I don't remember.
Yeah, someone pulled out of it, and then they offered me since I was already in Brazil.
But I think they needed a Brazilian to fill the card, so...
I couldn't do it.
So, yeah, there's been times that I've been willing to step in short notice.
But for now, I'm like, if what I've learned in four months has been able to get me this far in my last fight, then I'm going to go back and just get back to training so I can be ready when they call me again.
So what do you anticipate?
How many times would you like to fight a year?
I want to fight at least two more times this year.
Yeah.
So...
I've got to learn what works for me just based off the time put into this camp and kind of this new system that I can start to develop.
So now just get back, start training it, and then get into a fight camp.
And typically, what do you like?
Do you like 8 weeks, 12 weeks?
What do you need to prepare?
I think 8 weeks is perfect.
Yeah, eight weeks is perfect.
I'll take six weeks.
Four weeks feels kind of like, yeah.
You know, everything's kind of got to be rushed.
But, yeah, I think six to eight weeks is perfect.
And what are you doing for recovery while you're out there?
Are you doing Thai massage?
Are you doing any cryotherapy?
Thai massages are so cheap.
You can get a two hour Thai massage for yourself.
You can get a two hour Thai massage for maybe like 10 bucks.
And then they do the ice baths but they put like big blocks of ice.
They don't put bags.
So there's a bunch of just ice baths and massages.
That's it.
Stretching.
But I really want to do something down there.
Like save some money and maybe get a recovery place going.
Like what kind of recovery place?
I want to bring something down there.
I wasn't going to get about this idea, but whatever.
Who cares?
I think because there's so much stuff down there, gyms, CrossFit, restaurants, all that stuff, I think the only thing that's lacking is a proper recovery, cryo, cold plunge, hot tub, no massage, just...
Like speedy recovery.
You've been in the cryo, right?
Yeah.
Man, you can go after a hard session and go cryo and go take a nap and you'll feel pretty good.
Yeah.
You feel really good just getting out of it.
Do you feel the same way from ice baths?
Cold plunge, yeah.
Like the one at the PI, that one's freezing cold.
I do a couple minutes in there.
And yeah, the ice baths in Thailand, because the bricks are so big, it takes a long time to really fill up and stuff so they don't get as cold.
So I think I would love to just help out, like help that little community and just get something really cool.
Really good in there for just recovery and have, you know, maybe some type of smoothies or something to help boost everything up, get the system running again so that we can train multiple times a day.
Now, do you do anything to monitor your heart rate or heart rate variability to see if you're overtrained or undertrained, see how you're feeling?
Yeah, not as much as we did here at the UFC PI, but I do have a heart rate monitor.
And for this fight camp, I use it only to make sure that I can get my weight down because I got up to like 235. And I did this like VO2 max test and I did all this stuff and this clinic down there helped me to just understand when my body's burning fat so where to keep my heart rate and how to monitor like when I'm actually working hard enough to lose the weight and it worked so it was good.
It's such a different world now with all these scientific inventions and different ways that they can make sure that your body's in a good space.
It's not guesswork anymore.
They can make sure you're not overtrained or fighting something off.
The same time I was doing VO2max, they had a...
Like an EKG going on, everything.
So I'm like running, they're making sure my heart's pumping, my lungs are functioning, everything all in sync.
And they gave me this whole big printout of everything and everything seemed to be working perfectly.
So they were just like, okay, well, in order to lose this much weight by this much, this is where you need to be at.
And when your body's at the highest fat burning stage is when your heart rate's at like...
178 for me it was.
178 ppms.
And so I did my best to push there.
And I at least know when I'm there, I'm burning the most fat.
So I'll try to get there as much as possible.
Are you going to try to not do that again as far as like get that heavy?
Okay, there's Eric Anders or there's a guy like I didn't even know his name.
Like this guy...
It's going to be new coming into the UFC and Eric Anders is coming off a loss, blah blah blah.
I'm like, okay, well, it sucks.
I know Eric, all this stuff, but I'd rather fight Eric because I've already lost three times to guys who are making their UFC debuts and it's just not good for me.
You know what I mean?
Like, obviously they're tough.
They're hungry.
They're trying to get into the UFC. It's going to be a really tough fight.
And so that's kind of how I made the decision the last one.
I was like, I don't want to take the risk of losing another fight to a guy who is making his debut.
Because three times was enough for me.
That's refreshingly honest.
It's like we were talking about earlier about boxers, having managers that have a strategy to keep them undefeated as long as possible, give them tests, have them decide when's the right time to take this fight, what's the right thing to do?
And as a professional, how much of an advantage is it to know what a guy does, know who he is, have seen him fight a bunch of times, been around him?
I just, like, just for instance, like, I fought Gokan Saki, and then they offered me Johnny Walker.
And so, like, Johnny Walker was coming off Contender Series, but still nobody knew.
Like, not even we knew.
We saw his highlights, but we're like, oh, well, like...
Look at the competition that he's faced.
So we didn't really get to see much of what he was capable of.
So I'm like, okay, if that's all you got, then I'll take the fight.
But then here comes Johnny Walker, this raging beast.
The guy's huge.
Yeah, it was just, it was weird.
Like, so I went from beating Okan Saki to losing Johnny Walker.
Thank God Johnny Walker has been as good as he has and has made a name for himself.
But still, like, yeah, I just didn't want to be like a, I guess like a...
A foot in, or what do they call it?
A journeyman?
Yeah, not a journeyman, but when they say you're trying to get your foot in the door or something like that.
A foot in the door guy?
Someone said it on Instagram.
I saw it a few times.
I just didn't want to just be another guy that could possibly give somebody their shot into the UFC. I was like, let me fight a guy that's in the UFC this time.
Well, so now that you did and you had the fight with Eric Anders and you have this spectacular result, and now people are recognizing that you've made some big improvement, what caliber of fighter?
Who do you think would propel your career?
What would be the best next step?
I mean, definitely, I think it's time for me to break somewhere into the top 15. You know, for sure.
Nowhere in the guys that are at the very top, because...
They're all kind of tied up.
They're all pretty tied up.
I definitely think it'll be a while before I can actually fight Jones because just of how things are laid out.
I know for sure Johnny Walker's ranked and he's already kind of in talks.
He's the guy to beat Jon Jones.
I'm sure they're going to try to set that up.
Then there's kind of this set of guys in the middle.
Did Johnny Walker fuck his shoulder up when he was doing that worm thing?
Supposedly.
Supposedly.
But I think he's fine.
I think he's fine.
Because I've had people...
Call me and like, hey, I just see this Johnny Walker guy down on the street every day.
I guess he's back in Thailand now.
So he did that flop around thing, and then when he got up, he couldn't move his shoulder.
I think I can get one more year, year and a half of good solid fights in to really solidify myself just in the UFC. And...
And just put in the work and everything that it takes to really embody what I think it would be, like, what I think it would take to be a champion.
A successful champion, not just, like, get the belt and lose it.
You know, like, get the belt and then...
Just be a champion for, you know, a couple months.
Like not to actually be a champion and hold it down.
I think a little over a year.
Well, it's an unbelievably talent-rich weight class, right?
Because Cormier is still kind of in it.
Mm-hmm.
John Jones is the champion.
He just got off the Anthony Smith fight.
Anthony Smith-Gustafson.
Gustafson's still a beast.
But no one is really standing out as being this person that everybody wants to see challenged for the title.
You've got worthy challengers.
They're good fights.
But there's no one that you're seeing them, except Cormier was the only one.
We've seen him versus John.
You're like, what the fuck is going to happen here?
What's going to happen here?
And that's what the division needs, I think.
Definitely.
And that's something that I can also see.
And that's something that I also want to do for myself.
I want to be the best version.
And I'm starting to find out what that's like.
especially like the happy like being able to do what i what i want to do and strike how i want to strike and stuff so now like let's get some some fights in there to mix it up yeah really like test that like test if it works test if that's really going to be able to to sustain and and what it takes to get to get there you know what i mean like i'm willing to test it like if they want to put me up against the the best grappler in the world and think that i'll have no chance on the ground okay cool or if they want to put me against
well they already did they thought i wouldn't stand a chance against gokansaki and like i was very happy for them I'm happy for that because I'm like, okay, cool.
I get to test the best of my abilities against a legend.
I knew that I had everything it took to beat him, but I didn't think like, ah, he's going No, never.
So I want to continue to be tested.
It's interesting your approach because I wonder if the fact that you were such a non-confrontational guy and you are really easygoing helps you in that you have less conflict in your head.
I almost wonder, because even the way you approach these different matchups and everything, you kind of put your ego aside.
You're looking at, what is the smart thing to do here?
The smart thing to do is not take this fight against this newcomer guy.
I've already lost to newcomer guys.
The smart thing is, okay, we realized that Thailand was extremely beneficial.
Let's fucking move to Thailand.
So you're doing all these really, really smart moves where you're looking at it very logically, but...
You have confidence in yourself, but you're not like a braggy guy.
You're getting everything done with your work.
You're getting everything done with your results.
It's interesting to see, man, because you want to see as many different kinds of fighters as possible.
And you're like a new kind of thing.
That's the most important thing, though, man.
Like, I don't really tune in to much UFC and, like, what's going on because of that reason.
I don't care about what people have to say in this.
I don't watch fighting to hear what people have to say.
You know?
Like, I didn't fight.
Like, it's not about talking.
It's about fighting.
And the only thing that I can prove and have to prove is what I can do with my skills.
That's it.
You know?
So, like, if they put me, like...
If they put me against any type of other fighter, like, let's go back to the roots of mixed martial arts.
Let's go back to the roots of UFC, like, when guys weren't even the same size and they were just matching up different martial arts.
You'd be down for that?
I mean, I'd consider it, and if it had to happen now, like, yeah, I'd definitely think about it, and I'd probably lean more towards doing it than saying no.
Do you have guys trash talk you?
You're a pretty easy going guy.
Easy going.
It's nothing to my face.
It's always subtle.
If I ever hear about anybody saying something, it's just through word of mouth.
But you never had a Conor McGregor type incident?
Only in the beginning with Paul Craig, but I think it was just...
But I think what people forget, Joe, is that that's always been Conor.
Even when you go and look at the interviews from before he was in the UFC and he was just like, I'm going to make a bunch of money and I'm going to be all this.
So he created that for himself.
And yeah, he made a bunch of money from talking trash because he always had a plan that that's what he was going to do.
Like, when you're okay with your life, when you're okay with your heart, your integrity, when you just feel like, you know what, I haven't done anything wrong.
Like, yin and yang is the most beautiful thing ever, man.
Like, that is life.
That is life.
It really is.
The opposite, the balance of opposites, the constant flow.
That's why I love just reading the Tao Te Ching and just like Kundalini Yoga, all the cool spiritual stuff.
I'm like, yeah, man, this is it.
It just helps me to just kind of reach for this peace, this light.
That's awesome.
Do you see the contradiction in reaching for that peace and light while you're smashing people?
Yes, and that's life.
That is life.
That's life, man.
That's life.
Like a battery, right?
In order for it to give its power, it's got to have the negative and positive energies flowing through it.
I feel like a lot of the times people are too focused on one side, too much negative or too much positive, and you need a good amount of both in order for that power.
That energy to spark.
Well said.
You're a wise man.
I appreciate you, man.
And thanks for coming on the show.
And I can't wait to do commentary for one of your fights again, man.