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Aug. 27, 2018 - The Joe Rogan Experience
02:09:55
Joe Rogan Experience #1162 - Valentine Thomas
Participants
Main voices
j
joe rogan
01:03:02
v
valentine thomas
01:03:46
Appearances
Clips
j
jamie vernon
00:21
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Speaker Time Text
joe rogan
Three, two, one.
Boom.
You gotta appreciate a person who shows up with not just food, but booze.
You showed up, you brought whiskey and fish.
That's very impressive.
valentine thomas
That's why, it's exactly what my mommy taught me.
joe rogan
Your mother taught you to bring food and booze everywhere?
valentine thomas
Exactly.
joe rogan
Well, you got a good mom.
So your name is, you would introduce yourself as Valentine, but your mom calls you Valentin?
valentine thomas
Well, when I introduce myself to English-speaking people, I say I'm Valentine, but then when I speak to somebody that speaks French, I say Valentin.
joe rogan
Valentin.
Oh, okay.
Because you're from Montreal.
valentine thomas
Yes, exactly.
joe rogan
Okay.
So I found out about you online and I've read your story and it's a very interesting story because you were a lawyer, right?
valentine thomas
Yes, I used to be a lawyer.
I did my law degree in Montreal and then I did my master in law before moving to London.
joe rogan
And now you are a spearfisher.
valentine thomas
Yes, full time.
joe rogan
That's kind of crazy.
That's an interesting transition.
I'm fascinated by spearfishing.
It seems like a lot of fun.
It seems very exciting and dangerous and risky.
But how did you go from being a lawyer?
And that's a big jump.
I mean, you had to pay for an education.
Well, in Canada, do you have to pay for that?
How does that work?
valentine thomas
It's kind of cheap compared to the U.S., definitely.
It's about something maybe like $3,000, $4,000 a year.
So compared to the U.S., it's almost free, I guess.
joe rogan
Oh, that's not bad.
$3,000, $4,000 a year?
But still, that's $3,000, $4,000 a year for many years that you decided, yeah, I'd just rather...
valentine thomas
My mom definitely didn't get a good return on investment on that one.
joe rogan
Now, how do they feel about you doing this?
valentine thomas
She still sends me university applications time to time, being like, hey, why don't you study something different or something?
And I'm like, no, I'm not having a midlife crisis.
I just don't like what I was doing, so I just picked something else.
Oh, by the way, I'm going to have to apologize for my English.
joe rogan
Seems perfect.
valentine thomas
I'm from Montreal, so French is my first language or something.
joe rogan
Well, listen, you're way better than George St. Pierre.
He was here a couple weeks ago.
And George is more hard to understand, and he was fine.
valentine thomas
Yeah, I'm not going to speak like this, and I'm going to try to make an effort.
joe rogan
Well, listen, I'm impressed with anybody who can speak more than one language.
I was just in Thailand.
It's just amazing that they speak English so perfectly.
And then their language is so oddly different than ours.
You decided when to do this.
How deep into your law career were you?
valentine thomas
It was about...
I actually made a career switch when I moved to London in 2010. So I started working in finance, so I worked for hedge funds, and I basically decided on quitting law.
I didn't like the part of law where I was stuck in one place.
So, you know, when you study law, let's say in Canada, even in Canada, it's even worse because I was studying in Quebec, which is civil law, and then I was stuck in Quebec for the rest of my life.
And I just got like, oh, that's not going to happen.
joe rogan
So meaning that, okay, so like if you pass the bar in California, you would also have to pass the bar in New York if you wanted to work in New York?
Exactly.
valentine thomas
So it's a long process.
joe rogan
That's different then.
Is that the same with, like, if you were a doctor, would that be the case?
valentine thomas
Country-wise, I would say.
State-wise, I couldn't know.
joe rogan
But state-wise, it is for law.
valentine thomas
Yes, it is.
joe rogan
So for you, you would have got stuck in Quebec.
Quebec is a very interesting place because it kind of doesn't want to be a part of Canada.
valentine thomas
True.
We're very different in Canada, but my biggest problem with Quebec is definitely not a culture or anything like that.
It's the fact that it's an eight-month-long winter.
joe rogan
It's rough.
valentine thomas
I'm not doing it.
joe rogan
But the people are amazing.
valentine thomas
It is.
It's a very European city, actually, in Canada.
People are very about food, about sitting outside.
joe rogan
Yeah, shout out to my friends David and Fred from Joe Beef in Montreal, one of the best restaurants in the world.
You ever eat there?
valentine thomas
Yes.
unidentified
Woo!
That's amazing.
joe rogan
How good is that place?
unidentified
Woo!
valentine thomas
That's pretty good.
joe rogan
That's a jamming place.
So, I'm sorry.
So, you decided you didn't want to be stuck.
valentine thomas
Yeah, pretty much.
I kind of got claustrophobic of being like, oh, this is going to be the next 40 years of my life.
joe rogan
How did you get into spearfishing?
valentine thomas
Very weird story.
I got into spearfishing when I was living in London, which still doesn't make much sense.
And then I met this guy and he was like, oh, you have to try spearfishing.
He would be so good at it.
And he asked me to go do a course in Egypt, the freediving.
So I said, all right, I'm going to go.
unidentified
Egypt?
valentine thomas
Yeah, Egypt.
It's very big for freediving, Egypt.
joe rogan
Really?
valentine thomas
The sea is like very clear and deep and the water is beautiful and it's calm very often.
You can swim from shore and you have very great depths.
So it's really nice for that.
So I did my course.
I went there literally kicking and screaming.
I didn't want to go.
When I was 14 years old, I almost drowned in the side of France with my parents.
I refused to swim in the ocean for about 10 years after that.
If I couldn't see the bottom, I was not even interested in going near the water.
And then I was like, all right, I'm going to try this thing.
And I go there and I'm like, okay, it's not too bad.
No, it's not that bad.
It's actually really cool.
So he said, okay, well, now that you know how to free dive, in three months, we're going to this very big spearfishing trip on Ascension Island.
Ascension Island is literally one of the biggest, most elite spearfishing destinations in the world.
You go hunt for big fish.
unidentified
Where is it?
valentine thomas
It's right in the middle of the Atlantic.
It's right between Brazil and Africa.
It's a military island divided between the U.S. and the U.K. Oh, wow.
joe rogan
I've never heard of it before.
Do people live on it?
valentine thomas
Yes, they do.
They have locals that...
joe rogan
What language do they speak?
valentine thomas
English.
joe rogan
Really?
valentine thomas
Yeah.
It's a very, very odd place, but it's very pretty.
joe rogan
And it's one of the...
There it is.
Jamie nailed it.
Got it up there.
What's the Google Maps tell us?
How long does it take to get there?
valentine thomas
They finish in the middle of nowhere.
joe rogan
That's crazy in the middle of nowhere.
Wow.
It's between Africa and Brazil.
That's fucking nuts.
valentine thomas
And to get there, we had to go to the military base in the UK, which is like about an hour and a half away from London.
And we have to take a Royal Air Force flight there.
That's the only way to get there.
There's no commercial flights.
joe rogan
Really?
valentine thomas
It's a stopover on the way from the military base in the UK to the Falklands.
joe rogan
So how does a civilian get a ride on a military flight?
valentine thomas
They allow about five civilians per flight.
unidentified
Oh, wow.
joe rogan
So how do you book it?
You do it through a travel agent or something?
valentine thomas
I didn't do the booking myself, but I think it's through the airline or something.
joe rogan
Wow.
unidentified
How odd.
valentine thomas
It was a weird experience.
I was imagining when I was being strapped down and then facing the other side.
It's actually a commercial flight.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
valentine thomas
It's just bigger because it's meant for bigger guys.
joe rogan
Like the movie Predator?
valentine thomas
No.
I wasn't really expecting that.
I thought the door was open in the back and I was like run out.
joe rogan
Because I have some friends that have done some gigs overseas and they have had to fly in those kind of planes.
valentine thomas
That sounds pretty cool.
joe rogan
Yeah, I guess.
Until someone shoots at you.
valentine thomas
Yeah, that would make it a bad day.
joe rogan
That would change things.
So when you were free diving before you went to this elite spearfishing destination, how long could you hold your breath?
valentine thomas
When I started, there was zero, probably like 15-20 seconds.
joe rogan
So you were going there with 15-20 seconds worth of breath?
valentine thomas
I was pretty bad.
I just did my deepest dive on my way there was something like 15 meters.
Oh shit, I'm Canadian.
Uh...
joe rogan
No, that's okay.
It's close enough to yard.
We understand what that is.
valentine thomas
45 meters?
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
At 45 feet?
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
So it was something like that.
It wasn't that great.
And I actually remember my first time I went spearfishing, I was on a boat and the water was really bad.
It was rocky.
You know when the sea is like black, black because it's raining?
unidentified
Uh-huh.
valentine thomas
So I was in the back of the boat.
I was shaking.
I was holding my little gun and I was like, what the fuck am I doing here?
I'm like, well, I'm not watching TV right now.
Like, I don't want to be here.
I don't want to be here.
I don't want to be here.
And then my friend was like, Come on, stop being a freaking pussy.
Just jump on the boat.
Just jump in the water and come.
I'm like, okay.
I take a deep breath.
I jump in.
And then the water that was so dark and so horrible and chopped just became super clear and there was fish everywhere.
And I was like, wow, this is actually pretty freaking cool.
joe rogan
And you're doing this, again, free diving, no tanks.
valentine thomas
Free diving, no, no tanks.
So I take my first drops.
I'm a little bit clumsy because I have my gun and I'm like, I don't really know how to dive with that.
And then I took a shot on my first fish and I stoned it and my friend was like, oh yeah, that's great.
joe rogan
You stoned it, meaning you killed it.
valentine thomas
I killed it on the first shot.
Yeah.
joe rogan
That's hunting terms too.
unidentified
It's funny you said stoned it.
valentine thomas
And yeah, and then my friend was like, well, you're not done, you know, you have to grab, like, the fish, you have to drag it all the way to the boat, and I was like, alright, I'll grab the fish, I have waves in my face, and then I get, it was kind of a big fish, it was a big, it was a good, um...
joe rogan
What kind of fish was it?
valentine thomas
It was a blackjack, which is not that great to eat.
joe rogan
Blackjack?
valentine thomas
Yeah, probably something that not many people would eat.
joe rogan
Why wouldn't they eat it?
valentine thomas
It's edible.
It's not bad.
It's just not a very flaky fish, I would say.
It's a little tough.
That means it's a little tough.
joe rogan
Oh, so it's just too dense or something?
valentine thomas
Yeah, kind of.
They're very strong fish, so...
joe rogan
Whoa, that's a cool-looking fish.
That's what it looks like?
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
valentine thomas
It looks exactly like it.
joe rogan
It's a good first fish to Dale.
valentine thomas
It was pretty big, too.
It was about like...
25 pounds.
joe rogan
Oh, wow.
Your Instagram is filled with this stuff, which is, I guess, one of the ways that I found you.
It's hard to remember how I find people online.
But your Instagram is filled with you with all these cool fucking fish and all these...
I mean, you look like you're living a life of adventure.
This is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you about...
Is that a lionfish you killed?
valentine thomas
Yes, that's a lionfish.
joe rogan
Can you eat those?
valentine thomas
They taste...
They're probably one of the best tasting fish ever that exists out there.
They're fantastic.
joe rogan
Do you ever get them on a...
Are they commercially available?
Or is it something you have to...
unidentified
In Florida, yeah.
valentine thomas
You can find them at Publix in Florida.
joe rogan
Oh, really?
valentine thomas
Which is...
I was very surprised about...
You just have to be really careful when you harvest them, of course, because if you touch a spine, it hurts.
joe rogan
Is it poisonous?
valentine thomas
Yeah, very poisonous.
joe rogan
But it's just painful?
It's not deadly?
valentine thomas
No, you can get into a...
joe rogan
Bloodstream?
valentine thomas
Epileptic shock.
joe rogan
Oh.
valentine thomas
Well, that's not fun.
That can happen, but normally you just have, like if somebody was, somebody told me it's like you had a hammer in your head repeatedly.
joe rogan
Oh.
valentine thomas
It's like a throbbing pain for about a day and a half.
unidentified
Whoa.
joe rogan
So like a bullet ant almost.
valentine thomas
It's a pain.
It's not, it's, it's, you really try to avoid it at all costs.
joe rogan
Oh.
So what would you compare the meat to?
valentine thomas
Hogfish?
joe rogan
I don't know what that tastes like.
valentine thomas
So, or maybe a very tiny Chilean sea bass, maybe?
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
valentine thomas
That type of like oily, flaky...
joe rogan
Did you know that Chilean...
Did we talk about this on the podcast?
Chilean sea bass is not really a bass, it's a cod.
unidentified
Maybe.
joe rogan
It's horseshit.
valentine thomas
It's also endangered, but it's so good.
joe rogan
Is it endangered?
How's it on every menu if it's endangered?
valentine thomas
Yep.
joe rogan
People are assholes.
So you go to this one destination.
You shoot this blackjack.
Were you hooked immediately?
valentine thomas
Yes.
unidentified
Really?
valentine thomas
It was not about a spivishing part, actually.
I was still traumatized in the water.
I still had panic attacks when I was in the water.
But I fell in love the second I arrived to shore and we barbecued the fish on the beach.
And I was like, okay, this is for me.
joe rogan
That's the same exact thing that happened to me when I went deer hunting.
When me and my friend Brian Callan and Steve Rinella and Dan Doty, we were cooking this deer meat by a fire.
And I was like, this is the greatest thing ever.
The meat was so fresh because it was from an animal that was literally killed hours ago.
And then we're eating it by the fire.
I was like, I'm going to do this forever.
This is the greatest thing ever.
It's primal, right?
valentine thomas
It is.
What I always tell people is that when you live in a big city, when I've never experienced that before, I've never felt that I was part of the ecosystem whatsoever.
Right.
And then all of a sudden I've been putting myself in the water when I'm surrounded by sharks or big fish or different things.
And I'm like, wow, we're actually not on top of the food chain at all.
There's a lot of stuff above us that can kill us.
And it's scary and it's humbling.
And I think as a person you have to experience that.
You have to put yourself out of your comfort zone to understand that you need to respect what's around you.
You cannot tell me 10 years ago, oh, you have to eat that fish because it's bad for DRM. And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, sure, buddy.
And then you see in a plane, you're like, ooh, that looks good and it's fine and this.
But then when you're in the water and you see what's going on and you see that a spot you've been diving for five years all of a sudden is empty, then it makes you understand that, you know, we actually have a very strong impact.
And it's our job to understand and respect it.
We're it.
We're the ecosystem.
We're just the one that we're the smartest one.
Sometimes.
joe rogan
We're the only ones that are consciously aware of our actions and the repercussions.
valentine thomas
Yes.
joe rogan
Of our actions.
When you're, you know, first experiencing this your first time, in this feeling of connectedness and freedom and just being a part of the ecosystem, did you imagine that somehow or another this could be your life and your job?
valentine thomas
Not at all.
I've never been hiking.
I've never used to be a big fan of the outdoors.
I don't go to the gym.
I don't exercise.
joe rogan
You don't go to the gym?
valentine thomas
No.
I basically don't do anything.
And then all of a sudden, I was living in London in a nice apartment with two dogs and a nice car.
And all of a sudden, I was in freaking Africa camping in a bush catching my own food.
And sharing with villagers that had nothing to eat.
And I was like, okay, well, this is...
joe rogan
How did that happen?
Like, how did you go from this one trip?
valentine thomas
I got invited to film a documentary in food sourcing.
And I was like, okay, I'm going to try it.
And I fell in love with it.
And the second I went back to London, I remember sitting at my desk and be like...
There's no way I can do that.
There's no way I can keep doing that for the rest of my life.
And everybody thought I was completely crazy.
I sold everything.
And I just left.
I moved away.
And I have like maybe two suitcases of stuff for the past three years.
joe rogan
I was reading somewhere where they were going to do an interview on you and they decided not to.
They were going to feature you in something, but they decided not to because of concerns for the depletion of fish in the ocean.
And I said, that is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard because the impact of someone like you, what you're doing for your own personal consumption, taking a fish a day or whatever you're getting for your own personal consumption, Is negligible in comparison to all these people that are probably writing these articles that are going to buy sushi from commercial fishermen.
They're buying fish from the store that's wrapped in saran wrap.
They're completely out of touch.
You're in touch.
You're as in touch as you can get.
But to think that...
Somehow or another, you're doing something evil because you take photos of it and put it on your Instagram.
You had this amazing photo from a couple days ago with you, this big fish.
It was so fresh, and you guys were eating pieces of it.
You had cut a chunk of it out of its tail.
valentine thomas
Yes, that was in Thailand.
joe rogan
Yeah, Phuket?
valentine thomas
Yeah, near Phuket, actually.
We just went with this friend of ours, with his family, and we just went out for the day.
And we went spearfishing with my friend.
We caught a fish, and the guy was super happy.
He caught it right on the spot.
And all the kids were just picking on it.
They were so excited.
The second they came, that the boat arrived back to the island, they just went and grabbed the fish and they were trying to take pictures.
It was super cute.
joe rogan
What was the argument?
What was the piece that they were trying to put you in where they pulled you out of it?
What was that about?
unidentified
That story is still getting me pretty angry.
valentine thomas
So basically, I was speaking at a Women Empowerment Conference in New York last May.
And then when I was actually in Thailand, the woman that is organizing it calls me.
And she's like, oh, look, Valentine.
I need to talk to you about something and it's, you know, it's a little touchy.
I'm like, what?
She's like, well, one of our sponsors said that if you speak at a conference, they're going to watch their participation in the conference.
joe rogan
What was the sponsor?
valentine thomas
The Wall Street Journal.
joe rogan
The Wall Street Journal.
And I'm like, what?
valentine thomas
And she said, yeah, they feel like that your lifestyle isn't aligned with ocean preservation.
And she didn't say it directly, but she said, and you know me, I don't mind that you have pictures in a bathing suit.
I'm like, what do you mean, picture of my bathing suit?
Sorry, my burkini was not clean.
Like, what do you want from me?
I'm at a beach.
What am I supposed to wear?
joe rogan
Well, you're also swimming.
valentine thomas
I'm swimming!
joe rogan
You're not wearing a bathing suit.
I mean, it's not like you're in your high heels, you know, being an Insta model.
You're wearing a bathing suit.
There's nothing wrong with that either.
But you're wearing a bathing suit because you're actually in the water.
valentine thomas
Exactly.
I'm not in Mykonos next to a freaking pool.
I'm in Africana Beach when it's like 110 degrees.
What am I supposed to wear?
joe rogan
You're not on a yacht with Dan Bilzerian.
unidentified
Respect.
joe rogan
So, I mean, what did you say to them?
Wall Street Journal, that is so crazy.
You know, and I get it from their perspective.
It's a bullshit argument, but from their perspective, it's just about optics.
It's about how it looks.
That's all it is.
And if they go there, and people love to get outraged about something.
If they go there, and then they go to your Instagram and they find pictures of you with fish, they're like, well, this girl's cleaning out the ocean all by herself.
valentine thomas
She Yeah, I'm very good.
joe rogan
You would have to be really good.
I mean, have you ever seen a commercial fishing boat, what they do?
valentine thomas
Yes.
joe rogan
Yeah, most people haven't.
Jamie, see if you could pull off the horrific effects of commercial net fishing.
Because if you find a video, we could watch a clip of the video.
It's crazy when you see the sheer volume of fish that they pull out of the ocean and when you realize there's countless numbers of these boats and essentially pretty much unregulated.
And no one's watching them.
They're doing it all over the world.
I mean, there's areas where you're not allowed to fish.
But overall, it's nothing like the way we treat wild mammals or wild birds.
The way we treat wild mammals, especially in North America, is they're very closely monitored.
Their numbers, their populations.
We make sure that unless it's an invasive species like wild pigs, like, here we go.
This is...
This is awful.
They take this gigantic net, they circle all these fish, and then when they're pulling them in, you get to see the sheer volume.
valentine thomas
See, as they get close, But that's one of the smoother way to commercial fish.
France is very big on trawlers and it's two kilometers wide net that is actually scraping the bottom completely, destroying everything.
joe rogan
Destroying the coral.
valentine thomas
And there's electric shocks on each side.
joe rogan
This is actually a fairly mild one.
And it looks like they're getting these little tiny fish.
But, I mean, you could find it, folks, if you wanted to go and Google it online.
But that is the issue, too, right?
That these nets go all the way to the bottom, and they destroy anything that they touch.
Like, the whole, the bottom of the ocean just gets dragged, and all the coral gets destroyed.
valentine thomas
It's extremely destructive, but it's what...
joe rogan
That's how you get sushi.
valentine thomas
There's so much...
The fish industry...
It's not even necessarily how you get sushi.
It's how you get sushi so damn cheap.
joe rogan
Right.
valentine thomas
But it's...
By the way, if we keep doing that, there's literally going to be no fish very, very, very soon.
But then, how do you explain that...
In Canada, you're not allowed to spearfish.
unidentified
What?
What?
valentine thomas
And you have to release most of the fish you rod and reel.
There's a lot of stories...
joe rogan
You have to release most of the fish you rod and reel?
valentine thomas
Yeah, in Canada, like the striper, the striped bass.
joe rogan
How many can you get a day?
Striped bass, like one a day or something like that?
valentine thomas
One a day.
Spear fishing, one a day.
And the U.S. side.
In Canada, you're not even going to touch anything.
joe rogan
Why can't you spear fish in Canada?
valentine thomas
Because the Anglers Association in Canada thinks that we're the evils, basically.
joe rogan
That you're evil, why?
Because you can actually see what you're catching?
valentine thomas
Yeah, so basically we're the cheaters because we can see the fish.
And I'm like, how can you be in your camping chairs on your boat, drinking beers all day, telling me that I'm the cheater when I'm working my ass off, diving at like 60 feet to catch my fish?
To bring it back.
And I risked my life.
I risked my life drowning.
I risked my life with sharks.
I risked my life with all sorts of things that can happen.
And you're telling me, drinking your Budweiser in your freaking camping chair that I'm the cheater?
I'm like, I'm sorry, but no.
joe rogan
Well, people always want to think that everybody else is doing it wrong.
valentine thomas
True.
joe rogan
You know?
Vegans want to think people that eat meat are doing it wrong.
People that eat meat want to think vegans are doing it wrong.
People who fish off a boat want to think that people who spearfish are doing it wrong.
You think they're probably doing it wrong.
valentine thomas
No, I have nothing, again, catching you on food as long as you're respectful with the way you do it.
But there was a big scandal in Florida for the past years with the bread snapper, by example.
And it was about...
Like recreational fishing, you allow a certain amount of red snapper and then the season closes.
And when the season closes, as an individual, my license to fish is gone.
And then they give it away to the commercial fishermen.
And I'm like, whoa, so basically you're telling me that I'm not allowed to catch that fish for a few months because the population is too bad.
But then you're giving my quota to the commercial boats that are catching hundreds a day.
They're like, yeah.
joe rogan
No, it doesn't make any sense.
valentine thomas
No, it doesn't.
joe rogan
But most people are not going to spearfish.
Most people are going to fish.
So you guys don't have a voice, right?
In terms of representative voice, it comes to creating these laws and establishing these rules.
There's not that many of you.
valentine thomas
And the food chain, we're the plankton.
You have the commercial fishing with very big lobbyists and a lot of money.
And then you have the anglers, which is a little bit...
It's still not super bad because they still have big boats company and equipment.
It's still like a market which is good enough.
And then you have the spear fishermen.
joe rogan
Right.
valentine thomas
And spear fishermen were not a lot in the world.
I couldn't even tell you how many, but we're not a million.
I'm freaking sure.
joe rogan
It's probably less spear fishermen than there are bow hunters.
valentine thomas
That's highly possible.
joe rogan
Yeah, I would imagine.
Because it seems more dangerous and difficult than bow hunting.
It seems like the next level.
It seems like one of the most difficult things you can do if you want to get your food.
valentine thomas
It's...
joe rogan
Because you're going into an alien environment and you're holding your breath.
valentine thomas
True.
But actually, the human body...
That's the main argument I get from people.
They tell me, oh, I could never do it.
But the human body is actually made to do this.
So there's a thing called the mammalian dive reflex.
And this is very present in aquatic mammals, such as like dolphins or seals and things like that.
And the humans have it in a way weaker way, but we still have it.
And so when you immerse your face underwater, your heartbeat is automatically going to slow down, especially if the water is colder.
So your body is getting prepared to hold its breath to catch food.
joe rogan
And that's a new DNA. Is it preparing to catch food or is it just preparing to survive?
valentine thomas
To hold your breath underwater.
joe rogan
Right, for some reason.
valentine thomas
I mean, I guess that was a very successive thing to say because I'm seeing catch food, but I just don't see why a human being genetically would have to go underwater.
joe rogan
Are you aware of the aquatic ape theory?
valentine thomas
No.
joe rogan
It's a very controversial theory, but the theory is that we evolved somehow or another.
Like, you know, dolphins apparently were at one point in time a land animal.
Is that right?
Were dolphins a land animal at one point in time?
I don't know if that's true.
I might have made that up.
But the idea was that humans were the only ape that grew up in close proximity to water to the point where we evolved in the water.
Dolphins may have remains of legs.
Yeah, okay.
Fossil Remains shows dolphins and whales were four-footed land animals about 50 million years ago and share the same common ancestors as hippos and deer.
Whoa.
Scientists believe that they later transitioned to an aquatic lifestyle and that their hind limbs disappeared.
Okay, so this is fairly recent.
If you think about evolutionary terms, you know, the dinosaurs were killed 65 million years ago.
So inside of that, 15 million years later, they were walking around.
Which is fucking nuts.
They were like hippos.
They think...
So Google the...
Whoa, look at what they used to look like.
What the fuck, man?
Google aquatic ape theory.
I don't know enough about this to really speak on it, but that has never stopped me in the past.
But this theory is one of the reasons why they think humans have so much fat on us when we're babies, is that we float easier, and that if you take a human baby and you chuck them in the water...
Okay, well, what the fuck is that?
How about an actual article, not a picture?
Is this a cartoon?
valentine thomas
Well, but it's not even just about your heartbeat slowing down.
There's a bunch of things that happen, like crazy things.
joe rogan
Babies know how to hold their breath.
They instantly hold their breath.
That's like their Nirvana album cover.
Mammalian diving reflex.
valentine thomas
Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
joe rogan
It purports that some humans, notably children under five, may also use this reflex to survive prolonged submersion.
The mammalian dive reflex theory was developed in 1960 as an explanation for well-publicized survival of exceptional submersion times of some near-drowning victims.
But see if there's anything, like an actual article, that makes sense on the aquatic ape theory.
There's a new aquatic ape theory.
unidentified
This is from the Smithsonian.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
Hmm, okay.
Okay, the aquatic ape theory, now largely dismissed, tries to explain the origins of many humankind.
Unique traits popularized in the 1970s, 1980s by writer Elaine Morgan.
The theory suggests that early hominids lived in water at least part of the time.
This aquatic lifestyle...
Supposedly accounts for our hairless bodies, which made us more streamlined for swimming and diving, our upright two-legged walking, which made wading easier, and our layers of subcutaneous fat, which made us better insulated in water, think whale blubber.
The theory even links an aquatic existence to the extinction of human speech, evolution, rather, of human speech.
The hypothesis was met with much criticism, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
2009, Richard Rangham of Harvard University and colleagues suggested in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology that shallow aquatic habitats allowed hominids to thrive in savannas, enabling our ancestors to move from tropical forests to open grasslands.
So from 2.5 million to 1.4 million years ago, Africa became drier during certain seasons.
Already dry savannas became even more arid, making it difficult for hominids to find adequate food.
But Wrangham's team suggested that even in this inhospitable environment, there were oases, wetlands and lake shores.
And these aquatic habitats, water lilies, cat tails, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
The theory is that We, like, you know, obviously there's a bunch of different kinds of primates, and some of them are still in trees today, those fucking losers.
We left them behind.
unidentified
Ha ha.
joe rogan
Those are the ones that really dumb people point to.
unidentified
If people came from monkeys, why are monkeys still around?
joe rogan
Well, they're dumb.
They were the dumb monkeys, bro.
Come on.
Get it together.
We're the ones that made cars.
But some of these apes spent a lot of time in the water.
And that's why, if you ever see a baby chimp, their heart is a rock.
They're jacked.
Baby chimps, they come out sinewy, no body fat, and you throw them in the water, they drown.
They don't hold their breath.
They don't know what to do.
They just gag on water and drown.
Not that I know.
Not that I'm throwing chimps in the water.
valentine thomas
But that's what they say.
joe rogan
But if you throw a baby person in the water, they hold their breath.
So this is the aquatic ape theory.
valentine thomas
That's what scientists are basically saying about freediving.
When I first learned about it, it completely blew my mind.
joe rogan
How long can you hold your breath now?
valentine thomas
Five and a half.
joe rogan
Holy shit.
valentine thomas
But like facing down on the water and not moving and doing your preparation.
joe rogan
Not swimming?
valentine thomas
No, not swimming.
unidentified
Just face down.
joe rogan
How long can you hold it if you have to dive into the water?
How much time do you give yourself?
valentine thomas
It depends the depth.
It depends the fish you hunt.
It depends the conditions.
It depends on a lot of things.
joe rogan
So like if you're fighting the water currents, it's more difficult?
valentine thomas
Yes, because basically what you want to do when you free dive is you want to be as calm as possible.
You want to be as relaxed as you can, which is why yoga and meditation are often very close to free diving.
Because if your heartbeat is high, then your body is going to need more oxygen.
joe rogan
That makes sense, obviously.
valentine thomas
But then again, the second you merge your face in the water, you do like your first dive, and then you feel the pressure.
Your body understands that you're trying to hold your breath, and you need to do that.
So the blood is gonna start coming from your fingers, your extremities, your toes, and then your hands, your feet.
So all the vessels are gonna start constrict.
So all the blood flow is gonna go towards your vitals organs.
So your body is getting ready for it.
So they want to make sure that the oxygen goes exactly where it needs to be and make sure that you need as less effort to do anything as possible when you're actually underwater.
joe rogan
Now, when you first tried holding your breath, how long did you do it for?
valentine thomas
The first time I did it?
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
I think my first time trying it was about a minute.
joe rogan
That was like the best you could do.
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
With no techniques, just ready, go.
unidentified
No, no.
valentine thomas
Technique, like, you breathe a little bit before.
joe rogan
Even with techniques?
valentine thomas
Yeah, with techniques.
It was...
It's...
When you hold your breath, you have the buildup of CO2 in your body because you're not excelling any.
And then when your body realizes that there's a buildup, it gives you an urge to breathe.
And then it gives you contractions, like diaphragm contractions.
And this is what makes somebody panic.
You know, like, my body needs hair.
And you want hair, you want hair.
And then the more you train, then you realize that you learn how to control it.
And it's not because your body tells you to breathe that you're necessarily out of oxygen.
joe rogan
So what techniques do you do to relax that?
valentine thomas
Breathing.
So I do mostly, especially when I'm in the water, I do a very short inhale, so about five seconds, and then I do a long inhale, maybe 10 to 15 seconds.
And then when you exhale, you're focusing on everything getting relaxed.
joe rogan
I'm sorry, can you say that again?
Because you said inhale twice.
valentine thomas
Oh, sorry.
joe rogan
Did you mean to?
valentine thomas
No.
So you inhale for five seconds, and then you exhale for 10 to 15 seconds.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
So you exhale slowly?
valentine thomas
You exhale super slowly.
You use your tongue to control the air coming out.
And then when you do that, you get as relaxed as possible.
And then the more relaxed you are, that along with your mammal diving reflex, which is your heart being slowed down naturally, your blood shifting from extremities to your final organs.
And then you also have...
About a few years ago, maybe only 50 years ago, they taught that when you reach 30 meters, your body would be completely crushed inside.
That was what a scientist would think.
joe rogan
30 meters?
valentine thomas
Yeah, something like that.
That the pressure would be so great there that your body would be completely crushed.
But then again, with that dive reflex, what it does is that that overflow of blood is going around your alveolies and your lungs, which prevent them from crushing.
Your body is actually a design machine to go underwater.
joe rogan
Wow.
valentine thomas
Which is completely crazy, considering that I never knew that, especially growing up in downtown Montreal.
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
And then you put somebody in the water and you're like, hey, you actually made for that.
So when people tell me, oh, I could never do that.
It's too hard.
No, no.
You're actually born like that.
joe rogan
So was it a revelation for you?
I mean, did you really feel like this is more of who I am than the life that I was living before?
valentine thomas
100%.
I was living in London, too.
So it was all about...
All about, you know, earning money to buy as many things as possible, to try and impress as many people as possible.
And then at some point I was like, wow, I cannot do that.
I cannot spend my entire life just seeking to buy things and impress people that I don't like.
And then when I started spearfishing, it really gave me a different perspective on life.
It gave me the...
It humbled me in a way that was so...
So intense that it changed my way of thinking completely.
Basically.
So as I was...
joe rogan
How did it humble you?
Like in what way?
valentine thomas
Because I realized that...
When we were...
Let's say when I filmed a documentary in...
I filmed a documentary called Aqua Negra in Cape Verde two years ago.
joe rogan
Aqua Negra?
valentine thomas
Yeah.
Agua.
Agua?
joe rogan
Does that mean black water?
valentine thomas
Yes, in Portuguese.
And then we were there for about five weeks, five or six weeks, and then the living conditions were really bad.
And there was no grocery stores around, and we had to catch our own food, and it was really a self-sufficient type of trip.
And the first week, I remember, the only thing I could focus on was, oh god, this is terrible, we don't have a shower, there's no hot water, the bathroom is disgusting, I'm starving, there's nothing around, and then all you can think is how your comfort's gone.
And after a week, that's...
The focus changed on the good things that we're seeing around us.
And by having nothing all of a sudden, then I was like, oh, I actually now, for the first time in my life, can take the time to realize what's good around me.
And then how we were having fires with the neighbors and then how we were offering them fish and we were thinking, oh, you know, if I give this guy two fish, he's going to eat one today and then one tomorrow.
But no, they're inviting new neighbors to share and they make sure that there's like a whole community sense to all of it.
And I was like, wow, I've been living in London for six years.
I don't even know the name of my neighbor.
And it's bad.
It's not a way of living that I want.
It's not focusing on the right things and it's...
In that way, you know, it's realized how much of an asshole we actually became, and I just didn't want to do that.
joe rogan
Well, it's a very recent way that people have been living.
This way of living in apartment buildings and the way of living in houses where we don't know our neighbors.
valentine thomas
Yes.
joe rogan
In terms of human history, it's very recent, and I don't think we're designed for it.
valentine thomas
I don't think so either.
It's the human...
I do believe that a human being, to be happy, you need to have this sense of community, which is why, you know, when you go on the subway and you see, like, somebody singing, everybody's laughing, and you see those videos on YouTube, and it makes you all warm and happy inside, it's because that's what we're meant to be, you know?
And we're meant to live with other people, we're meant to socialize, we're meant to have this...
This strong feeling of, I don't know how to say that in English, to be part of something, to be part of a group and people like that.
And I do think it's a necessity for human beings to be actually happy.
joe rogan
I think so too, and I think it's probably one of the reasons why so many people are so grossly unhappy and so depressed and so disconnected and they feel alienated even though they live in these giant cities.
People feel extremely lonely, even though there's a lot of people around.
I mean, one of the weirder things about New York City, you know, I have friends who live in New York City and one of the things they say they love is how many people are there.
There's all this energy.
There's all this energy.
I'm like, yeah, but you're not even talking to those people.
That's what's weird.
It's like you're alienated in this little 1,200 foot little cubicle that you live in.
You know, this little, I guess 1,200 foot's not that small.
But, you know, some of them, like Ari's place is like, I have to ask him.
I think it's tiny.
It's probably like half that.
It's probably like 600 feet.
valentine thomas
It was probably like five million.
joe rogan
It's probably stupid expensive, right?
But the idea is that you don't know anybody around you, but you're stacked around all these people and then you go out you're walking around these people, but you're not really talking to them and you have a few people that your friends with maybe that you work with and you interact with them, but then you're constantly surrounded by all these other people that you don't even know.
It's a very weird weird way to live.
Whereas The way you were living, the way you were describing this with these people and they're all sharing fish and everyone's taking care of everybody and giving some to their neighbors and sharing.
That's how people have been living forever.
I think there's certain human reward systems that are built into who we are as a being, as a species, that just aren't being met.
And that's why I'm so fascinated by your choice to go from being a lawyer to living this very interesting life of spearfishing.
valentine thomas
But it's also, it's not always easy in the sense that I still haven't found a place where I want to live because the society isn't designed for this.
My lifestyle is very hard to adapt with modern society.
I struggle with a lot of things.
I don't know where to live.
I don't know...
Because this sense of community, you can have it in small villages.
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
So that's kind of why I've been living in...
Well, not anymore, but I lived in the Bahamas for a year.
And I got to experience that.
When everybody knows each other, everybody talks to each other.
joe rogan
Why don't you stay there?
valentine thomas
Because for now, I guess...
Well, I couldn't.
I woke up with my ex-boyfriend.
I couldn't live there anymore.
So it was his house.
I was like, alright, I'm out.
So that is, I just, I don't know.
It's, I still need, you know, to survive.
I still need to, yeah, I catch a lot of my own food and my freezer's literally full to the rim, but I, you still need money to live.
joe rogan
Right.
And how do you make money?
valentine thomas
I get a few things.
I'm working right now on a cookbook and a TV show with a Canadian company.
joe rogan
Do you make any money off your Instagram page?
valentine thomas
Yeah, sometimes.
joe rogan
Because some people do, right?
valentine thomas
Sometimes.
joe rogan
How do you do that?
How do you make money off your Instagram page?
valentine thomas
Like sponsors and different things like that.
I just don't like being like, hey, drink my detox tea.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
Skinny tea.
valentine thomas
I just don't like doing that.
And the problem also is...
Like, was it two years ago?
I was a super big contract with a cruise ship company.
They need a girl to like, they need a freediving girl.
And we're not that many of us.
So when they hired me, about a week later, she calls me back.
She's like, I'm sorry, we can't hire you anymore.
I'm like, what?
Why?
And she says, because we're partnered with WWF and our marketing department said that you raised a red flag because you're spitfish for a living.
joe rogan
WWF? Wrestling?
valentine thomas
WWE? A WWE, like the panda one.
joe rogan
Like the what?
valentine thomas
The one with the panda.
unidentified
The one that made him change the name to WWE. The World Wide...
joe rogan
Yeah, that's what it used to be.
valentine thomas
Okay.
joe rogan
Is that what you're saying?
The wrestling?
Pro wrestling?
valentine thomas
No, no, no.
The eco-friendly.
unidentified
Oh.
valentine thomas
With the panda.
Damn it.
joe rogan
World Wide Wide Federation?
valentine thomas
Yeah, that one.
joe rogan
Oh, they made them change their name?
That's why they changed their name?
Oh, I thought they changed their name because of a lawsuit because they had to show that they were entertainment.
unidentified
I don't think so.
joe rogan
Huh.
So WWF owned it?
I believe so.
I didn't know that.
I really thought that it was just because of regulations.
WWF. WWF. So?
valentine thomas
So basically, yeah, they said like, oh, because we really want to keep our eco-friendly partners.
joe rogan
Meanwhile, their fucking boat's filled with roast beef and chicken and all sorts of other shit.
valentine thomas
Meanwhile, when they cross, they're allowed, I think it's about when you're two miles away from the coast, you're allowed to dump your garbage in the ocean.
joe rogan
What?
valentine thomas
Everything.
As a cruise ship, we're allowed to open the trap and just throw everything in the freaking ocean.
unidentified
Come on.
joe rogan
Is that true?
valentine thomas
It's true.
What?
That's the law.
It's the law.
Do they do that?
Of course they do that.
joe rogan
Oh, my God.
valentine thomas
And that's one of them.
That's one of the problems.
There are five people cruise ship.
How many straw do they think they use and glasses because they're too lazy to wash them?
That's one of the problems.
And then the Bahamas...
You know how much dredging you need to make for a cruise ship boat to actually pass and dock somewhere?
You need to rip up the entire bottom of the ocean.
So it's deep enough.
It's a very, very detrimental...
Organization for the ocean.
And then they're telling me, I'll start with you because you catch your own food in the water.
Sorry, you're bad for the ocean.
I'm like, what?
I catch my own food.
I don't buy this disgusting farm salmon from Whole Foods because it's gross.
And are you telling me that I'm bad?
unidentified
Like, what?
joe rogan
Yeah, most people don't know that farm salmon, they dye the fish to make it look orange.
Like, if you buy farm salmon and they're not dyeing it, it would be a white meat.
Because they're not eating what they eat naturally.
It's bugs.
Certain bugs give them...
Or shrimp?
What is it?
No.
It's pelicans.
No, not pelicans.
What are those little fucking weird...
Bunch of crabs.
The ones that people have on their lawns.
valentine thomas
Salmon is not pale orange.
It's dark orange.
joe rogan
Flamingos.
Flamingos are pink because of the shrimp they eat, right?
unidentified
I think so.
joe rogan
Yeah, it literally makes them pink.
But salmon are dark when they're wild because of their diet, their natural diet, which includes a lot of bugs, I guess.
valentine thomas
Yeah, they just basically feed them in whatever they have.
Like salmon is not supposed to be pale orange.
It's dark orange.
joe rogan
Right, yeah.
Yeah, I've caught wild salmon before.
It's awesome.
valentine thomas
It is really good.
But sadly, with all the water that they made to make electricity and all the stuff like that, they killed all of them.
joe rogan
Well, they killed quite a few.
There's an interesting place in Seattle where you can go and watch the salmon swim upriver.
There's like a bridge and you go underneath the bridge and they have this setup where there's thick glass walls where you can actually look into the ocean and watch the salmon go up the salmon ladder.
It's really fascinating.
It's crazy to watch them.
But one of the guys who was there who was a guide was explaining how How when they were doing construction and doing various things and they're building Seattle, they'd shut down one of the rivers and these salmon would just get to the mouth of the river where they thought they were supposed to go and fucking die.
And it was crazy.
Like millions of them died while they were trying to figure out a way to carve this path again.
valentine thomas
Yeah.
It's pretty weird how they die too, they like rot.
I went diving in the Salmon River in BC and I was underwater with my girlfriend and I could see they had like big stains of like rot on their body.
So they live like they fall alive in the ocean and they came to breed one last time, which I guess is a good last choice when you think about it.
And then it just rot to death.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's very strange.
And if you catch them too far along the process, their body's already deteriorated.
I know guys who have caught them.
In survival situations, people eat them because you have to.
But if you caught them towards the end of their cycle, their body's like mush.
You literally shove your fingers through it.
valentine thomas
Yeah.
But you see, that's what people eat.
But again, you know, the Wall Street Journal and their Instagram page when they're promoting a recipe for shrimp that are probably coming from Thailand or salmon that is farmed and very bad for the environment.
But then they think that, I don't know, there's something ridiculously taboo about catching food.
It's ridiculous.
And people...
Imagine...
I know how hunting has a bad reputation because of the blood and things like that.
But in fishing, we deal on top of it with a bunch of lobbyists that are fighting us for the fish at the same time.
joe rogan
Because they want to sell those fish.
valentine thomas
Because they want the fish.
And all we are for them is something in the way.
And we don't buy their fish at all.
joe rogan
And because there's so few of you...
They can, you know, they can shut us down.
valentine thomas
They can say anything that they want about us and we don't have the power to say something back.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
If they shut down sports fear spearfishing, there really wouldn't be much outcry.
How many spearfisher people are there?
valentine thomas
I would lose my shit, but I don't think I can do much.
joe rogan
Well, you'd make a post on Instagram and a couple of people would like it.
unidentified
Yeah, exactly.
joe rogan
I got 5,000 likes.
How many spearfisher people Are in the country?
Let's Google just America, just United States.
How many Spearfit?
How would you know?
Because you don't have to have a license for the ocean, right?
valentine thomas
It depends on the state.
Florida you do.
joe rogan
You do have to have a license?
valentine thomas
In Florida you do.
joe rogan
Oh, interesting.
valentine thomas
Well, it's like, you know, $25 license.
jamie vernon
I Googled that and there's a city called Spearfish in South Dakota.
unidentified
It gave me the populations.
I don't know how to find it.
joe rogan
How many active—just write spearfishermen—no disrespect to the spearfisher ladies.
valentine thomas
I don't think we count that much in the database anyways.
joe rogan
How many spearfishermen are there in the United States?
It's going back to that state or that city.
valentine thomas
It's going really fast, actually.
It is?
It is going fast.
There's like a trend now for people who catch their own food and people are starting slowly because there's so many of big people, special celebrities.
They're spearfishing?
No, they're voicing themselves when it comes to food sourcing and now people are starting to realize that hunting or spearfishing is actually not as bad.
joe rogan
It's way better.
unidentified
It is.
joe rogan
But it's just very difficult.
jamie vernon
According to Sports Illustrated, there's estimated between 1 million and 2 million.
joe rogan
In the country?
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
That's a lot of people.
Yeah, that's a big estimation.
That's close to 1%, right?
There's 3 million people.
If there's 2 million, 300 million people, rather, if there's 2 million spearfisher people.
unidentified
Yeah, close.
Yeah, but that's...
joe rogan
That doesn't make sense.
That's ridiculous.
I mean, even if it was one half of a percent, that's crazy.
So you're telling me if you get a room of 200 people, one of them's going to be a spear fisherman?
Get the fuck out of here.
unidentified
Oh, I'm sorry.
jamie vernon
This article I just saw at the very, very top is from 1954. There was only 80 people alive back then, man.
unidentified
That makes it even worse, I feel like.
joe rogan
That's hilarious.
You talk about pulling it.
unidentified
You know how people are like, yeah, bro, that article's from 2016. Yeah.
joe rogan
Wow.
You should know if you want to take up spearfishing.
Wow.
By the know-it-all.
Wow.
That's crazy.
1954. I'll try again.
Okay.
Just give it a shot.
Whatever.
valentine thomas
I mean, it's a great sport.
It's the best way to eat fish and seafood.
joe rogan
Oh, I can only imagine.
I love fishing.
I love fishing.
It's really fun.
valentine thomas
It can be a little stressful sometimes.
I get that.
But imagine if you're floating in a saltwater tank.
And then you're looking around and you're trying to meditate as much as you can.
And then you're waiting.
You're in a hunting mode.
You're focusing on your prey to try to get it.
And then you have like five grizzly bears that are circling you.
You're trying to eat your ass.
joe rogan
Does that happen all the time?
valentine thomas
I try to eat the fish.
Not you.
joe rogan
Do you get approached by sharks?
valentine thomas
And the Bahamas, yeah.
And the Bahamas, they're pretty much always there.
joe rogan
There's a guy who just got bit in Texas.
He got bit by a bull shark, and now he has flesh-eating bacteria that's destroying his leg.
Apparently there's flesh-eating bacteria in the water.
We don't need to Google that.
valentine thomas
That's a bad day.
joe rogan
It's pretty disgusting.
valentine thomas
I got pretty bad encounters with sharks.
joe rogan
Yeah?
What happened?
valentine thomas
My worst one was in Tampa, actually.
Something super easy.
It was in 15 feet of water and...
That's actually the danger of spearfishing is when you start getting cocky.
And you say like, oh, water's shallow.
It's fine.
We don't have to watch each other.
Everybody's doing their own thing, which is really bad.
Definitely never do this.
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
I got my lesson breakdown.
And I shot a little fish, so I clip it to the back of my gun.
And then this tiger shark come in.
And I'm like, ooh, tiger shark.
They're a little bit...
They can be...
joe rogan
They're aggressive.
valentine thomas
Yeah.
They're not the nicest one you want to show up.
And then it was a juvenile one.
It was still a good, like, seven feet long.
Seven, yeah, about seven feet long.
But it was young.
And the young is really the one that you don't trust.
The big old sharks, you know, they're wiser.
They know.
They check you out and things like that.
But the young ones, they want it a little bit crazy.
So they're going to go more towards you and they're going to go try to do, like, curious bites, which is what happens most of the time with shark bites.
It's a curious bite.
And so the shark is in front of me and he's charging me with his mouth open.
So with my gun, I'm poking it.
I'm poking the eyes.
I'm poking the gills.
I'm poking the nose.
I'm trying to poke everything that's going to hurt him as much as I can.
And I'm not very strong, especially in the water.
So I'm really trying to bang this freaking gun as hard as I could in his face.
And he doesn't back down.
He keeps circling and he keeps coming in for me.
And at some point I'm like, okay, like something – I'm going to have to shoot it hoping that I'm not going to miss because if I miss, then it's the only thing between me and the shark.
joe rogan
So you're poking it with the tip.
valentine thomas
Yeah, I'm just poking it with the tip.
And then you roll his eyes back.
joe rogan
Oh.
valentine thomas
Which is when they're ready to bite.
And I'm like, oh, shit.
I'm like, I'm dying.
And I'm like, okay, well, whatever.
I'm like, okay, I'm going to try to aim and try to see if I can shoot it.
And then my friend arrives.
He's like, oh, I heard you screaming.
What's up?
Do you have a fish?
I'm like, there's a tiger behind you, buddy.
And he's like, oh crap!
My friend Felix from Montreal is like a 17-year-old at the time and he never rarely spearfished.
It was his first time he was seeing a shark.
I promised his parents I would bring him back in one piece.
joe rogan
Oh, Jesus.
valentine thomas
I'm like, okay, don't panic.
Everything is fine.
joe rogan
How deep is the water?
valentine thomas
Like 15 feet of water?
It was so shallow.
So I'm like, put your back against mine, and then cover your half, and if it comes too close, just poke it.
And the shark came in a couple of times, and because we were two, he was like, eh, whatever, and he just left.
He didn't like that, that he was outnumbered.
And I'm like, wow.
So when I was alone with the shark, I was screaming in the water, and I was like calling my friends for help, and then nobody could hear me.
And then we went back to the boat.
joe rogan
If you scream under the water, how far away can people hear you?
valentine thomas
Not too far.
joe rogan
10 feet?
15 feet?
valentine thomas
It depends on the wave again and the winds and everything like that.
But nobody could definitely hear me.
Then when I get back on the boat, I see my friend swimming towards the boat and he screams, Tiger shark!
I'm like, no shit, dumbass.
I've been screaming for your help for the past half an hour.
And then you get to the boat and we left and the shark was like circling.
It was like, ooh.
That was really scary.
But in that situation, again, if I had shot the shark, To save myself, I would have got the worst publicity ever.
That's one thing I don't understand.
joe rogan
When did that happen?
Where sharks became something that are protected in the public eye?
Because was it the governor of New York that killed that shark when he was fishing?
Someone, the governor, the mayor, one of those guys, was sport fishing, caught a shark, and was it the governor?
Cuomo.
valentine thomas
Very common in the States, shark fishing.
joe rogan
They're edible.
I've had Mako shark in restaurants before.
But something happened, something changed, and I think it was when...
There was all this awareness about shark fin soup.
Yeah, there it is.
Andrew Cuomo.
He caught a 154 pound thresher shark and everybody freaked the fuck out.
valentine thomas
It's when they realized that the Asians were catching millions a day to make shark fin soup.
joe rogan
Yeah, so it became, instead of it being something that was just another fish, then it became something that's protected and people with a very shallow understanding of what a shark is were freaking out about it.
valentine thomas
Yeah, exactly.
The Asians ruined it for everybody else.
joe rogan
How dare you.
Be careful today.
Especially with crazy rich Asians, number one in the box office.
I mean, that practice of chopping off the fins and throwing the sharks back is horrific.
But there's sustainable populations of some sharks.
I mean, apparently off of the coast of California, near Catalina Island, the Channel Islands, a lot of mako sharks out there.
valentine thomas
And then great whites.
Actually, the population of sharks right now in California is very high of great whites.
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
Because the seal population became really high, and then because, you know, the great white shark population takes more time to grow, now we're at a stage where there's shit tons of lionfish, and now there's a lot of great whites too.
joe rogan
But great whites are protected, right?
unidentified
Yes.
valentine thomas
Yes, definitely.
joe rogan
Are tiger sharks protected?
Yes.
valentine thomas
Shires are protected in a lot of places.
In Florida, I don't think you're allowed to eat it.
Depends where.
Some marinas are very funny about it.
And New York.
I went to Pivishing in New York about a couple months ago and a guy was like cutting a mako on a dog and nobody seemed to be offended by it.
joe rogan
Well, people that are on the water, people that are fisher people, they wouldn't be offended.
It's the casual person on the outside that gets offended.
valentine thomas
Yeah, exactly.
But again, you know, that's the double-edged sword of the internet.
You know, it gave a voice to everybody.
joe rogan
Exactly.
valentine thomas
But it's just like, you know, remember that gorilla thing?
What was his name?
Karambe?
Yeah, people are like, oh, this is terrible.
They should have never shot the gorilla.
They should have shot the mother instead.
I'm like, what?
joe rogan
What?
valentine thomas
We're saying when a surfer gets bitten by a shark, they're like, oh, it's his fault, it was in his territory, like, you shouldn't have, like, done anything to the shark.
I'm like, put your mother in that cage with that gorilla.
Then tell me which one you're going to shoot.
My money's not in the freaking...
My money's not on your mother.
It's probably going to be in the gorilla.
joe rogan
Yeah, I wish there was another way.
I mean, I don't know that they needed to shoot that gorilla.
I don't know enough about gorilla behavior.
I would like to think that the gorilla wouldn't have done anything to the baby, but I don't know anything.
valentine thomas
I don't know much about this situation enough.
joe rogan
It's sad.
But if I have to choose a baby over a gorilla, I'm taking the baby every time.
I'm going to save the baby.
It's a fucking human.
valentine thomas
Yeah, but it's easy to be irrational when it comes to that.
joe rogan
When it's not you and you don't have any stake in the game.
You're talking about it from the sidelines.
And that's people talking about sharks.
That's people talking about bears.
That's people talking about a lot of animals.
valentine thomas
Yeah, pretty much.
And this is why spearfishing, hunting is very well hated, I guess, around the world.
joe rogan
I have friends that run a bear hunting operation in Alberta.
Shout out to John and Jen.
Saw them this weekend in Calgary.
They run a bear hunting operation.
They don't run a hunting operation, but they spend a good amount of time bear hunting.
Black bears.
And the black bear population up there is incredibly dense.
There's so many of them.
They're everywhere.
And they decimate the deer population.
They decimate the moose, the elk.
They eat all the babies.
And they cannibalize each other.
I mean, they're beautiful animals.
They're fascinating.
They're interesting.
I'm glad they're around.
But their populations need to be controlled.
There's a lot of them.
And they're delicious.
All these things fly in the face of reason for most people.
They think if you're shooting a bear that you're a trophy hunter like someone who's shooting a rhino or something like that.
Someone who's a terrible person who wants to shoot something that's endangered.
They are as far from endangered as is humanly possible.
They're not endangered by any stretch of the imagination.
They live in dense forests and there's a giant number of them and you can shoot two of them up there.
They encourage you to shoot two of them.
They're trying to thin out the population because of the effect they have on the undulates up there.
But it's one of those animals that my friend Steve Rinella calls them charismatic megafauna.
valentine thomas
It's cute.
joe rogan
Yeah.
It's just we've made them into movie characters and TV show characters and people have this idea of what they are based on Just this sort of image that gets portrayed in the public and we accept this narrative.
And I think that's happening right now with sharks.
You know, no one wants sharks to go extinct.
I think sharks are awesome.
They're cool.
But they're also edible.
And if there's a lot of them, I've seen people catch mako sharks.
Off of the coast of California and and cut them up and make shark steaks up and eat them and it used to be normal No one cared until I feel like within the last decade Something happened in the last decade that people became incredibly outraged when someone kills a shark I Actually think that people became outraged when you kill anything But they're so hypocritical because they're killing things left and right with their pocketbook.
They just don't know it.
They're killing things with their credit card.
They're killing things with cash.
If you buy fish in the store, you're killing fish.
I don't care if you like to think you're not.
You are.
You're supporting the fish industry.
You're supporting the killing of these animals.
You're eating them.
It's a direct connection.
You're paying a supermarket hitman to go out and do the work for you.
valentine thomas
100%.
If you eat fish, you cannot be against bear fishing.
If you eat meat, you cannot be against hunting.
joe rogan
But it's also the weirdness of it.
I went to Whole Foods today before I came here to get some lunch.
And as I'm walking through, just because I was thinking that I was going to have this conversation with you today.
And I'm walking by these long aisles of ice with these fish on it.
And I could just point to one of those fish and go, hey, give me that thing.
No connection whatsoever to where that thing came from, how it got there.
I just take it, and I could bring it here.
I probably should have, just for effect.
Just slap it down on the table.
valentine thomas
Well, imagine the amount of grocery stores as a country with a fish display, which is completely full.
joe rogan
Well, let's just imagine in this area.
There's a Whole Foods that's about two miles up this way.
And then if we go down the street, there's another one.
There's a Sprouts.
They have a fish section.
Then we go a little bit further down, there's a Gelson's.
They have a big fish section.
There's just fish all over the place.
But the ocean's pretty fucking far from here.
I mean, you have to drive to get to the ocean, you know, and they're not going to the ocean and pulling these fish out themselves.
It's all coming from a giant commercial boat that distributes it all throughout Southern California, all throughout Northern California, all throughout.
Then you get into the middle of the country.
That's where it gets really crazy.
If you're buying halibut and you're in South Dakota, where the fuck is that coming from?
You know?
valentine thomas
Alaska, probably.
joe rogan
Yeah, you're not supposed to eat halibut if you live there.
valentine thomas
I completely agree.
joe rogan
You should be close.
You should be close, though.
I mean, I'm just kidding.
Eat out.
unidentified
Go ahead.
joe rogan
Eat whatever you've got to eat.
But we're weird.
People are weird.
valentine thomas
Yeah, but all of those boats, you know, they have...
I mean, the States is actually doing a way better job than a lot of countries.
I must admit, under control of fisheries.
But when I see laws and regulations on small little individual anglers or super fishermen...
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
And then I see a chihuahua that can catch everything he wants.
That's just, it's just pours my blood to a next level.
joe rogan
Well, it's insane.
And in our lifetime, the population has decreased radically.
And there's no better example than that than the Tokyo fish markets.
You know, the Tokyo fish markets, you interview those guys, and they talk about what it used to be like when they just, the amount of tuna that they used to deal with, and the amount they deal with now, it's a significant dip.
And this is within 40 years.
What is it going to be like 40 years from now?
And the estimates are that it's going to be a radical decrease in the population of almost all fish.
valentine thomas
Yeah, for sure.
That's the problem.
People want to have access to everything now.
If we would put regulations on everybody's fish, it's like, okay, look everybody, I know you want your salmon, but it's going to be close of January to May.
I know you want your halibut, but you can't eat it this year.
We'll eat it next year.
If we would be willing to live with just...
I mean, I think people would survive it, that's for sure, because I don't think people would get used to pretty much anything.
But then the industry is worth so much money that they're not willing to do that.
joe rogan
It's not just the industry is worth so much money, it's that there's certain people in certain countries in particular where that is all they have.
I mean, there's certain people out there where they they're dependent upon the ocean and its bounty for their survival.
And if they can't sell fish and they can't buy fish, and we're talking about individual fisher people that have boats and, you know, are doing it on their own small scale commercial fishermen.
There's not a lot of room for error there.
They're not making a ton of money.
valentine thomas
Those aren't a problem, though, like the small family commercial fishing boat.
They're not the problem.
I mean, when you see those guys bring in, you know, like the guy in the video earlier, yeah, he's catching a big net, he's catching quite a bit of fish.
The reality of things are ships, foreign ships, raiding the entire ocean with nets that are like kilometers long.
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
A net is a mile long.
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
And you just catch everything you can in it.
joe rogan
Dolphins, turtles.
valentine thomas
Turtles, dolphins, sharks, everything.
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
And then it's not the freaking Johnson family that lives in North Carolina catching lobsters and then tuna that are making a problem.
joe rogan
But you would have to have some regulations that were accepted by all these different countries too.
And that would be a real difficult thing to pull off.
To get these countries to accept that they're going to lose money.
And to do it in a timely fashion where these fish could actually bounce back?
valentine thomas
It's not going to happen until there's nothing left.
joe rogan
That's crazy.
valentine thomas
Everybody sees it.
Everybody is talking about it.
joe rogan
When you look at the sheer size of the ocean, the idea that we could fish the ocean out is so crazy.
valentine thomas
That's a lot of fish.
But when you see those commercial boats and how the quantity of fish they managed to take out of the ocean, it's a lot of fish.
joe rogan
Is there any talk about doing something about this?
Is there anything on the table?
Is there any discussion about regulating the amount of fish these gigantic boats can pull out?
valentine thomas
Well, again, the U.S. is trying to regulate that, and they actually made efforts that proved to increase the amount of fish, so it's good.
They're actually working in the right direction.
But the problem is that still to this day, I'm not sure exactly how many Nautical Mali have to be, but a Russian or a Chinese foreigner trawler is allowed to fish from the coast of the United States.
And international water to just raid everything.
There's nothing you can do about it.
Who's gonna regulate that?
The UN? China's gonna be like, yeah, sure, buddy.
joe rogan
Yeah, I mean, look, Japan's still killing whales.
You know, they kill whales under the guise of science.
Have you seen how they do that?
The Sea Shepherd bust those guys?
valentine thomas
Yes, how they pretended that it was for science.
joe rogan
Yeah, and then they kill them and sell them.
I mean, it's really fucked up.
You know, this same exact problem was going on in the United States in the 1800s.
Market hunting is what they were calling it, where they devastated all the wildlife in North America.
The buffalo population was almost brought to extinction levels.
Really close.
There's still some wild herds that exist in Mexico, and there were some of them that exist in the United States, and now they brought them back.
But to this day, the majority of buffalo that live in North America are all on private land, the majority of them.
But at one point in time, there's millions and millions of them all throughout the country.
Elk, they've only been...
Repopulated to a small percentage of their original range.
I think it's something like 30%.
There's some animals that have thrived like white-tailed deer because they live primarily in farmlands and farmlands have gotten so huge that they were essentially like farm animals now.
It's very strange.
Like when you think of white-tailed deer, the places where they're the most popular...
valentine thomas
That's like Santa Claus tears, right?
joe rogan
No, that's actually reindeer.
That's a caribou.
Yeah, caribou are these migrating deer that live in Canada primarily and in Alaska.
And they migrate for hundreds and hundreds of miles in these massive herds.
They're very different in that, you know, unlike deer, you'll see them, like hundreds of them, moving together in one group, in one line across the tundra.
But these animals that were in North America, not Alaska, but the lower 48, they were wiped out almost to nothing.
Antelope, deer, elk, buffalo, they were almost all wiped out by market hunting because this is back when we didn't have refrigerators.
So people would shoot these things and bring them to market and people would go to market and buy that meat and they would bring it in on trucks.
I mean, I guess they just have blocks of ice and these trains and trucks and they would bring in this meat and they killed almost everything.
In a short amount of time, like less than 100 years, there was almost nothing left.
And then they instituted these laws where it was illegal to sell wild game.
So if you buy elk, like say in this country, if you buy elk meat, you're buying it from New Zealand.
valentine thomas
Oh, so it's actually in force right now still?
joe rogan
Yeah.
There are some commercial farms.
I don't know what they sell.
I think you can sell commercially raised deer and elk in America, but if you go to a restaurant, most of what you're getting, you're actually getting from New Zealand.
valentine thomas
Really?
joe rogan
Yeah.
But you can't go to the woods.
Like say if you went to the woods and you went and shot an elk like that one up there and you tried to sell, it's illegal to sell.
You can't sell that meat.
It's not a marketable product.
It's something that has to, you have to have a tag for it, you have to pay for the tag, and then it has to be for your own personal consumption or you can give it away to your friends, but you can't sell it.
valentine thomas
Okay, which is not much of a bad thing.
joe rogan
It's the only way.
They had to eliminate market hunting.
It was the only way to bring these populations back.
And then they had to enforce these very strict conservation efforts.
And then here's the big one.
I think it's called the Pickman-Robertson app.
Whatever the Pickman-Robertson, is that it is?
That's the name of it?
What it is, is it takes 10% of all of the proceeds from hunting supplies and gear and puts it to wildlife conservation, which is an enormous amount of money, billions and billions of dollars.
So it goes to preserve habitat and wetlands.
It goes to reintroduce species into places where they had been decimated, like elk are now in viable numbers in places where they were completely extinct, like in Virginia, and I think Tennessee has them now as well.
Kentucky, I know, has them.
Pennsylvania has them.
And at one point in time, there was none there, like up until, you know, just a few decades ago.
valentine thomas
If things actually handle In a responsible and smart way, there is a way to save everything.
joe rogan
The problem is this is the United States.
The United States is like, it's on land, it's controllable, it's within the boundaries of this one country.
The control is accepted.
When you're talking about the ocean, It would be really difficult to get other countries to agree to that kind of strict management that brought back wildlife in North America to do that to the ocean.
But if they did do that to the ocean, maybe everything could bounce back.
valentine thomas
I mean, a few states, Florida is definitely one of them, where they're looking very closely to what's going on, and then they have close seasons and things like that.
And it actually makes a really nice and big difference.
But again, I think the problem is not coming from that.
The problem is coming from, again, like deep trawling and commercial, foreign commercial fishing.
joe rogan
What's a big industry in Florida?
valentine thomas
It is.
joe rogan
Florida sport fishing is a giant industry.
People go there every year to grouper fish and fish for tarpon.
There's a lot of fishing in Florida, and it's probably a pretty significant part of their economy.
valentine thomas
Yeah, I think I read somewhere that actually the number of jobs in recreational fishing was higher than in commercial fishing in the States.
joe rogan
Wow.
valentine thomas
I believe I read that somewhere.
joe rogan
The number of jobs.
So the number of people that are employed.
valentine thomas
So you create most jobs, yeah.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
So like selling fishing rods and lures and guiding people on boats.
valentine thomas
And charters and things like that, exactly.
joe rogan
Yeah, that kind of makes sense.
valentine thomas
So the commercial...
Also, I mean, the biggest problem with commercial fishing is I went to...
I actually went to Taiwan last year, and I was helping them finding government and giving them a proposal on how they can change the law to make the fisheries better.
And they explained it to me, like, they have those ships, and they hired people from the Philippines or from Indonesia, and then they put them on a ship for six months.
They take their passport, and they're getting paid like...
joe rogan
Nothing.
valentine thomas
Literally nothing.
And all they do all day long is they catch tuna, they catch tuna, they catch tuna, they catch tuna for like 14 hours a day.
And then that's it.
And they'll bring the tuna back and they sell it.
joe rogan
You know, the problem is people are fucking up so many different parts of the world so fast.
It's hard to like go, well, we got to really put it all aside and concentrate on the fish.
valentine thomas
No, for sure.
Again, it's a lot of money and there's a lot of people depending on it.
But then at some point we're going to have to realize, hey, there's no fish.
So we're more people.
So we're going to have to turn ourselves on them.
But people are not going to change their ways or do anything unless they're being told, sorry, there's no more fish.
joe rogan
How long have you been doing this now?
valentine thomas
Full time?
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
About three years.
joe rogan
And have you noticed a difference in three years?
valentine thomas
Depends where, but yeah, some places definitely.
When I've been traveling, there's some places where I've been, and the third time or fourth time I was coming back, I could see there was even less and less fish.
unidentified
Really?
valentine thomas
The Mediterranean is a disaster.
joe rogan
Mediterranean is?
valentine thomas
There's literally nothing left in that place.
joe rogan
What would happen?
valentine thomas
And it's, again, that's another example where it's just been overfished for so many years.
They don't allow spearfishing there, but a commercial fishing boat is allowed to catch as many tuna as they want.
For tuna, I mean, spearfishing is legal.
joe rogan
Yeah, Anthony Dordain did something in Italy, and there were so little fish that they were actually throwing frozen fish into the water, like frozen octopus into the water, and they wanted him to pretend to catch these frozen octopus.
Instead, he made a mockery of it and showed the guy throwing the frozen fish into the water, frozen octopus into the water.
valentine thomas
I'm not surprised.
If you catch a fish in Greece, you can sell it for like 100 euros.
joe rogan
Because there's no fish?
valentine thomas
There's no fish.
There's definitely no fish.
But people won't change their ways until you tell them, sorry, you can't have your candy anymore.
And then they're going to be like, I guess I have to make an effort now.
joe rogan
Fuck.
So what would be the solution?
I mean, is there a way to commercially raise fish that's viable?
Like they do with the cattle industry?
valentine thomas
Well, I'm actually going to the Marshall Islands in October, and I'm going to visit this...
joe rogan
The Marshall Islands?
valentine thomas
The Marshall Islands.
joe rogan
Where are those?
valentine thomas
That's the middle of the Pacific.
unidentified
Another one.
You go in the middle of nowhere.
valentine thomas
That's my thing.
joe rogan
Is it near Hawaii?
valentine thomas
No, it's near Australia, I think, or something like that.
No, it's near Papua New Guinea.
joe rogan
Oh, wow.
valentine thomas
That type of area.
joe rogan
You gotta be careful.
They eat people over there.
valentine thomas
Oh, that's fine.
I don't have much meat.
I'm like the appetizer.
But they have...
So I'm going to visit a farm that is sustainable and everything.
joe rogan
If there's any New Guinea people listening, I'm joking around.
unidentified
Don't get mad.
joe rogan
People get so outraged.
This motherfucker's calling us all cannibals.
Is that where it is?
Show me where it is again?
Right there where your arrow is?
Oh my god.
That is ridiculous.
Don't go there.
valentine thomas
So they told me that they have a sustainable farm, so I'm going to visit it.
I'm going to see it.
You just have to be really careful because, again, if they leak into the ocean, then it contaminates other fish, and then if some of them escape, it creates problems.
joe rogan
What kind of problems does it create?
valentine thomas
You can have a captive one, so basically it's going to infect the other fish.
joe rogan
Infect them with diseases?
valentine thomas
Yeah, with diseases.
joe rogan
What kind of diseases do they get when they're in captivity?
valentine thomas
They can get all sorts of stuff.
joe rogan
So it's a lot like captive animals, like avian flu and swine flu.
valentine thomas
Yeah, pretty much.
Fucking great.
There were some stories about some really bad fish farms that are feeding them with pig stuff.
Again, it's all about being responsible.
joe rogan
We did a podcast recently about CWD. Quantic Wasting Disease is a disease that's spreading amongst deer in this country.
And they think a lot of it is coming, or some of it at least, is coming from deer farms.
They have these deer farms, and all these animals are eating off the same food, then they escape, and then they spread it, and then there's an incubation period.
I mean, it exists in the wild, and it exists in deer farms, so it's very complicated.
So they have a similar issue with fish then.
valentine thomas
Yeah, they do actually.
And it's pretty bad, but it's...
joe rogan
What kind of diseases do they get?
unidentified
I wouldn't know what type of disease they have.
valentine thomas
I'm not very familiar with fish diseases, to be honest.
What is that term?
Some fish have cancer.
It's bad.
joe rogan
What is the term zoonotic?
Is that the term?
When it leaves and makes the jump to humans?
The diseases?
Are there any?
Yeah, that's what like avian flu is and swine flu.
It's a disease that makes it jump to humans.
Is there any diseases in fish that make the jump to humans?
valentine thomas
Apart from parasites, it's the only thing it can take off that human can actually get.
joe rogan
And parasites are pretty rare with ocean fish, right?
It's more common with freshwater fish?
valentine thomas
There's worms.
We can see worms sometimes, but you just discard them and then it's fine.
They're not going to kill you.
They're just going to taste a little funky.
joe rogan
Ew.
Do you've eaten worms that came out of fish?
For sure, right?
valentine thomas
You must have.
Probably.
I just probably don't know it.
When I cut the fish raw, I cut it pretty small, so I make sure that there's nothing in it.
joe rogan
So you look to see the worms?
valentine thomas
Yeah, you can see them.
joe rogan
How much worm can you get in your body to where it starts growing?
Take a little slice?
valentine thomas
I'm not going to try.
joe rogan
Do you know?
valentine thomas
But no.
When you cook the fish, they're all dead.
If you freeze it, that's why a lot of people freeze their sashimi before eating it.
joe rogan
Yeah, they try to do that with pigs and a lot of animals in this country, too.
But there's two types of trichinosis, apparently.
Maybe there's more, but there's two very specific kinds of trichinosis.
One, that if you freeze, it'll die.
And this is trichinosis that comes from an animal that's from the southwest of the United States.
valentine thomas
Okay.
joe rogan
But then there's trichinosis that comes from animals that's in the northern territories, in Canada in particular, like bears, Alaska, and that stuff.
You could freeze it.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't even kill it when you freeze it.
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
So you have to cook it.
It has to be cooked to, I think it's 160 degrees.
147 to 160 is a recommended temperature.
You have to kill those little fuckers.
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
Otherwise, it just gets into your muscle tissue.
I have some friends that caught it.
It's horrific.
valentine thomas
Oh, that's bad.
joe rogan
Yeah, your whole body's in pain because it's literally they're burrowing their way into your body.
valentine thomas
I don't think you have something that bad in fish.
I mean, maybe that's why I'm skinny.
Who knows?
joe rogan
He's got a tapeworm.
valentine thomas
Maybe that's why.
joe rogan
Well, maybe you're just eating fish all the time.
It's probably pretty lean stuff.
valentine thomas
Yeah, true.
But also, freediving, when you go spearfishing, you burn about between 1,000 and I think 1,300 calories an hour.
joe rogan
What?
valentine thomas
So if you want to lose weight, go spearfishing.
unidentified
Really?
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
1,300 calories an hour?
That's incredible.
valentine thomas
It's very, very intense.
joe rogan
Wow, that's amazing!
You would think a lot of people are listening to this like, I could eat so much food.
I'll just go free diving.
valentine thomas
But you also don't eat food, which is...
joe rogan
What's that, Jamie?
The Marshall Islands?
Oh, Jesus, that's where they blew that thing up.
We've shown that a million times.
That's the crazy nuclear bomb testing area.
That is the nuttiest shit ever.
You see that as miles high water spraying up into the sky.
valentine thomas
So maybe the fish are going to have like three eyes or something.
joe rogan
Oh yeah, you're going to have fish that can read your mind.
They're going to know you're coming.
What are you spearfishing for in the Marshall Islands?
valentine thomas
I'm not going to be spearfishing.
I'm just going to be visiting a farm and see what they're doing.
So it's kind of good.
I have a lot of people asking me for alternatives and what it can do and what it can eat.
joe rogan
And so this is one of the possible alternatives that they have in these farms.
valentine thomas
Yes, exactly.
So I'm going to check it out and make sure that it's all legit and then...
joe rogan
Is it possible that they could reintroduce fish into the ocean, like stock the ocean?
Because that's what they do with some lakes.
Like, I used to go fishing at this lake in Boston, and they restock it every year with rainbow trout.
valentine thomas
Yeah, that's true.
Actually, my lake, when my parents have a country house, they do that too and it works.
The only problem I would see with that for like an ocean fish would be, I'm thinking because they never had predators in captivity, that that may be, it might have a survival problem after that.
But maybe they can learn it.
I don't know.
joe rogan
Yeah, the strong and smart survive.
valentine thomas
I mean, it's still better that if, you know, if they put 10,000, if 2,000 survive, it's still good.
It's better than nothing.
joe rogan
It's still 2,000, yeah.
Yeah, I wonder what it would have to do.
I wonder if it's even possible to restock something as big as the ocean.
valentine thomas
It's just being fished so quickly.
And that's the biggest problem.
But there are solutions.
It's just people have to be willing to talk about it.
And right now, that's the biggest problem.
With the same situation as with the Wall Street Journal, when people are trying to talk about food searching and mentioning alternatives.
But like, no, no, no, no.
They're like, we don't eat fish.
We don't eat seafood.
No, no, no, that's not true.
joe rogan
And Don't you think that it's the optics, though?
I mean, what they're concerned with is not...
It's not that it's rational.
It's that they don't want any controversy.
That's what it is.
So a person like you, although what you're doing is if you explain it and you look at it objectively, it's very rational.
But they're not trying to be rational.
What they're trying to do is avoid any conflict.
Like, there was a guy...
Who is a NASCAR driver, okay?
And he lost a sponsor recently for some racist stuff that his father said 30 years ago.
This is how crazy people are getting.
30 years ago, his father used a racial slur.
And because of that, this guy, who wasn't even alive when this happened, or maybe he was alive, maybe he was seven years old or some shit, He lost a sponsor.
I mean, it's one of the Companies are such cowards like they're so terrified because of social media because people are so willing to protest and There's a bunch of fuckheads out there that just get a thrill off of getting people fired and of getting things canceled and of like Exercising action and seeing a result all they're doing is pushing buttons It's not that they've thought about this and like hey is this guy really responsible should we really?
Blame him for something his father did 30 years ago.
That's ridiculous.
What we should do is nothing.
Just let it go.
I mean, unless this guy is like some sort of white supremacist or some racist himself, and he's not.
We should just do nothing, but that's not that doesn't that's not fun.
What's fun is Getting a rush a power trip out of action Like clearly there should like if you find a real racist something someone who's doing something actively to harm other people Simply based on their ethnic origin or the color of their skin.
Yeah, that's terrible You should talk out about that.
That should be eliminated from our society real real racism But that's not what this is.
What this is is people deciding that they're going to take action and then NASCAR being a pussy about it or this company being a pussy about it.
And that's the same thing that's happening with you.
This is not a rational decision.
They should look at it and go, wow, what an interesting way to get your fish.
How many of these people that made this decision actually eat fish?
I would bet it's most.
I would bet it's most.
valentine thomas
People should understand also that by refraining people, To talk about it, you're being part of the problem.
joe rogan
Yes.
valentine thomas
This is why things have been so bad for so many years because nobody wants to talk about it.
They all want to eat it.
They just don't want to know where it's from.
joe rogan
But no one's looking at things long term.
Of course not.
Potential short-term income loss.
So with the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Post or whatever paper it is, what they're worried about, they're worried that someone's going to come along and say, the Wall Street Journal supports...
Is it Wall Street Journal?
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
The Wall Street Journal supports mass extinction of fish.
They just reframe it in some outrageous, unrealistic, non-accurate way.
valentine thomas
Well, people need to chill out, too.
I think, like, I understand where they come from in the sense that Especially like the millennials or whatever.
We're all born when, you know, we had a bunch of toys from China.
Nobody used a shit about that.
We ate whatever we want.
Nobody used a shit about that.
We had freaking processed food.
Nobody cared about it.
We had hot dogs and nobody ever said anything about it.
And then we all reached like our mid-20s and all of a sudden we're being told about everybody.
Oh, by the way, you know everything like all your Barbies, they're very bad for the environment.
Oh, you know what?
By the way, like the hot dogs you've been eating, they're very bad for the environment.
And you're like, we live in an era where we're being told that everything we're doing is wrong.
And it's hard.
It's hard for somebody that lives in the middle of the city that doesn't know anything else to be like, oh, yeah, you know what?
It's true.
I'm going to stop eating this that I've been eating for the last 20 years just because somebody told me so.
joe rogan
Somebody had a very funny tweet about Starbucks.
Do you know California eliminated straws?
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
And Starbucks had this whole thing about, you know, a big sign about how, you know, we're doing our part for the environment, we're eliminating straws, and then on the tweet it said, okay, so you're just putting plastic lids on your coffee cups?
Yeah, and what happens with them?
And then Starbucks, it said, oh, dot, dot, dot.
I'm like, Like, you're not fucking, you're not fixing shit just because you get rid of the straws.
You got plastic lids everywhere you go.
Those goddamn Starbucks lids are littered on the street.
They're everywhere.
unidentified
But this is a perfect example because it shows exactly this.
joe rogan
They did a little bit of action.
valentine thomas
People are like, they have either a very small action that makes them feel better or they like to point out the fingers of somebody else.
joe rogan
Yes, you with your straw.
valentine thomas
Exactly.
joe rogan
You're evil if you have a straw now.
valentine thomas
It's just the way people are dealing with that.
They're being told that everything they've been doing since their kids are bad.
So now they're like...
No, but look at her.
She's spearfishing.
She's evil.
joe rogan
You're like, what?
valentine thomas
I think it's that.
I think it's the way that people are handling the fact that they're being told that everything is wrong, that they're trying to be like, no, I made my effort.
I made a Facebook post this morning saying that I wasn't getting straw, so I'm green.
joe rogan
California seeks to be the first state to limit plastic straws.
Like all restaurants.
Wow.
unidentified
Yeah.
It hasn't passed, but it's been proposed.
joe rogan
Governor Jerry Brown.
valentine thomas
How can it be so difficult to be like, look, plastic is a problem.
You use something else.
joe rogan
You know, one thing that they...
I don't know where...
Maybe I saw this on your page.
Did I find this on your page?
That there's a new invention that they use for water runoff before it goes into the ocean.
It's this giant net that catches all these plastic particles.
Was that on your Instagram page?
No.
It's really interesting.
Someone has invented this cover that's like a filter that as the water's going through, it catches all the stuff that would ordinarily be washed out to sea.
And so it basically, over these storm drainage pipes, these enormous pipes, is this huge net.
So the water can still go through it, but it just shows you this insane amount of water.
Debris and garbage that would have ordinarily just been washed out to sea, and they're catching it in these nets.
It's not everything, but it's a start.
It's not going to make up for the fucking cruise ship that's dumping things just right offshore.
valentine thomas
It's crazy.
joe rogan
I did not know that that was the case.
valentine thomas
Yeah, it's legal, too.
And that's the worst part of it.
But...
But you can't spearfish.
But you can't spearfish because I'm the bad guy.
joe rogan
So what you want to do is you want to spearfish and you want to raise awareness and you want to continue to live this life.
So what you're trying to do along the way is trying to figure out how to make a living while you're doing it and where to live.
valentine thomas
I'm going to want to write a book at some point.
joe rogan
Do you mind if I ask you how old you are?
I'm 31. So this is an age where people are like, oh Jesus, you're in your 30s, you should have your shit together by now.
That's what a lot of people think.
You're in that area where you should have your career in order, you should think about settling down, having a family, you should start your 401k, and you should have all this stuff in line, and you're out there...
valentine thomas
Fishing.
joe rogan
Stabbing fish.
valentine thomas
No, I don't mind that.
I don't think my age is an issue.
joe rogan
I don't think it's an issue either.
I'm just saying that in the path from graduating high school to going to college to becoming a person that's 31 years old, I mean, a lot of people compare themselves In a very sort of foolish way, they compare themselves with other people like how much stuff have these people accumulated?
valentine thomas
How much have I? But for me it was a crucial step of my life to be able to take a step back.
I want to take a step back of all of that and be like, okay, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I've been telling The same thing since I'm born about what I should want, about what I should do, about what was expected of me.
unidentified
People have been telling you that.
valentine thomas
Exactly.
When I was seven years old, I look at my mom and I said, you know, mom, when I grow up, I'd rather have a job that I don't like when I make a shit ton of money than a job I love when I make nothing.
I was seven.
I told that to my mother.
And my mom was like, what did I do wrong here?
joe rogan
Well, that's a rational thought with kids.
valentine thomas
And then when I quit my job, then my mom was the one being like, why are you doing that?
You have no security in life and blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, well, sorry.
It's good.
I need a step back.
I need to look at everything around me.
I need to look at society.
I need to look at how things work.
And I want to make sure that when I'm in it, it's because I actually know what I want.
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
And I don't like being told to do.
joe rogan
Right.
valentine thomas
So that's kind of what I'm doing.
I'm figuring out my own things.
I'm figuring out what's important for me and what my real values are.
And I don't think you can discover the person you really are by staying in your 9 to 5, by not knowing anything and being unhappy and not being able to go outside of your comfort zone.
joe rogan
Right.
Comfort zone is the big word, right?
Because it's comforting that you get that check every week.
valentine thomas
It is.
joe rogan
But ultimately, it's numbing.
valentine thomas
You have kids, you have this and that, but it's people that tell me like, oh, you're so courageous to have done that.
Or, oh, I envy your life so much.
I'm like, well, when I first quit my job, I lived in my freaking car for a while because I didn't have a place to stay and neither no money to sustain myself.
joe rogan
Did you really live in your car?
valentine thomas
Yeah, I did for a while.
joe rogan
How long?
valentine thomas
About a month, something like that.
It was like sporadic in my car.
joe rogan
Did you just smell?
Or did you shower somewhere?
valentine thomas
No, no, I had friends, so I was like showering.
There's also beaches, showers on the beach.
joe rogan
Wow, when that was happening, how old were you at the time?
valentine thomas
23 years ago, so 20...
joe rogan
So you're 28. 28, yeah.
And you were like, what the fuck am I doing with my life?
I'm living in my car.
valentine thomas
Yeah, but I have...
joe rogan
I'm a lawyer.
valentine thomas
Yeah, but I felt free and I never regretted my life and that's what...
joe rogan
Well, you are courageous if that's the case because a lot of people would panic, me included.
unidentified
It's...
valentine thomas
I guess you encourage this in a way regarding like the fact that you're sleeping in a car.
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
But if you're unhappy with your life, why keep going with it?
joe rogan
Well, that's...
What you're saying is logical, right?
But logic is not how most people live their lives.
What you're saying is like you're...
It's romantic.
Like you're saying I want to live my life with passion and I want to follow my interests and I don't mind living in my car and showering at the beach.
I don't mind.
I'm fine with that.
Most people are not fine with that.
Most people would be insecure and they would be scared of the future and they would want some sort of stability and that's what's courageous about your decision because One of the things that, like, I was talking to people about you before I did this podcast, and the question from everybody is like, how does she make a living?
I'm like, I don't know.
I'm not sure.
I'm like, I guess she's this professional spearfisher person.
I go, but I don't know how you make money doing that.
I'm like, maybe you guide people, take people out.
valentine thomas
Sometimes, very rarely.
I'm a freediving instructor too, so I only give private lessons.
I'm a freediving instructor too, so I give lessons once in a while.
I have contracts here and there.
Right now, I reached a point where I'm not rich, but I'm not starving either.
joe rogan
Right.
valentine thomas
And I'm happy about it, and I actually do believe it's going to lead to something.
joe rogan
What would it lead to?
valentine thomas
To a job that I think is going to be, you know, I started giving conferences around and I think that's something that really, really interests me.
joe rogan
Conferences?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Like this women's empowerment thing that you were going to talk?
valentine thomas
Yeah, pretty much.
Just without all the shit going behind it.
joe rogan
Well, that was just one.
And I'm sure, look, people love a story about someone who's following their passion because there's so many people out there that really desperately want to do that.
They just don't know how to do it or how to get the courage to do it.
Or they get stuck with a mortgage or maybe they have a family and responsibilities or maybe they have loved ones that are taken care of and they can't.
And so when they hear about someone who's going for it, Either they're jealous of you and they hate on it and they say, that's stupid, that girl's a fool, blah, blah, blah.
Or they go, God, I wish I could do that.
Those are the two, depending upon the mindset of the person that's watching you, that's going to be their reaction.
valentine thomas
I completely agree.
Well, I have a TV show coming on.
I have my cookbook coming on.
joe rogan
What's the TV show?
valentine thomas
I have...
It's going to be in French, but it's about...
I'm going to be traveling around the world and fishing with...
I'm not even sure I'm going to talk about that.
unidentified
Whoops.
valentine thomas
Whoops.
It's a TV show.
It's going to be fun.
And I'm starting with...
My sister just graduated from fashion design in London.
And we're just starting a bathing suit company with recycled fabric.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
valentine thomas
I have a few things in my pipeline.
I don't like being bored.
I know it seems like it, like I'm free-spirited and I travel around, but I'm still a very ambitious person and I do want to achieve things that are going to make me proud.
It's not always, you know, it's not...
I didn't quit everything to become a hippie and live on the beach and wear no shoes the rest of my life.
No, I just, I quit my job to live and build my life and my career the way I wanted to and in a way that was making me proud and happy.
So this is pretty much what I'm doing right now.
joe rogan
It's very admirable.
It really is.
And it is really brave.
Thank you.
Because you're not going to get a whole lot of reinforcement from other people.
I'm sure you probably didn't.
There probably weren't a lot of people that were telling you, you go for it, girl.
Go sleep at the beach.
Stay in your car.
Yeah, you don't have a shower?
Who needs a shower?
You don't know where your food's coming from?
Who cares?
valentine thomas
But there's also a group of people who are like, oh yeah, this is a good idea.
And then the second you turn around, they're like, oh my god, this is so stupid.
joe rogan
Well, that's just humans.
People love to talk shit.
valentine thomas
But even in my hardest moments when I was broke or anything like that, I never regretted it.
Not one second I told myself I made the wrong decision.
So I guess it's a good sign.
joe rogan
Well, the good thing is you were doing something that's so soul-sucking.
valentine thomas
Yep.
joe rogan
That anything seems like it's worth it.
valentine thomas
I really found myself in situations when I was like, ooh, I'm actually an asshole.
I was like, okay, I'm going to have to work on that.
joe rogan
As a lawyer?
valentine thomas
No, even like in this life, you know, especially when, you know, filming a documentary in Africa or in different places.
Well, you know, you have no food and you, like, have a table with people and we're sharing, like, a can of tuna between four people and you're like, like, yeah, let's share.
I'm happy to share.
And you're just like, I just want to, like, push in the ground and run away with a can of tuna.
unidentified
Right.
valentine thomas
You're discovering yourself.
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
And sometimes you don't always like what you see.
But it's good.
It's what it's for, you know?
You look at yourself and then...
I would never discover the type of person I am when I'm starving on a nine-to-five job.
joe rogan
Unless you're starving, right.
valentine thomas
Exactly.
joe rogan
How many people ever are, right?
valentine thomas
Definitely not that many.
And again, that was the thing that shocked me the most.
And I think it's also what touches people the most about Africa as being one of them.
People are super close with each other.
People are really nice and you're really focusing on the nice things.
You're like, wow, I want that.
I want to keep doing that.
But then you spend your month there and then you spend a month in New York City and you forget everything.
It takes literally a week to forget everything.
joe rogan
You know, another hard thing would be if you tried to relay your experiences on a television show, it would be edited down to, even if it's a one-hour show, with commercials, it becomes 44 minutes.
And you're just not going to be able to get all that.
valentine thomas
They know that.
joe rogan
It would be very hard.
valentine thomas
I told them that I was not interested in doing anything scripted, and I told them If I want to do a TV show, if I'm puking, I want it there.
If I'm crying, I want it there.
If I hate it, if I'm crying for my mommy to come pick me up, I want it there too.
Because I think that's the beauty part about those travels and that's what needs to be shown, I think.
joe rogan
be a real reality show but the reality of reality shows is most of them are at least planned out if they're not scripted totally and you can tell you know you could tell when people like well we got to fix this gas pump we're not gonna get this boat started you know it's such bad actors you You see it in their face.
You could smell it when they're acting.
It's just like, whoa.
valentine thomas
True.
But that was the beauty of the Anthony Burnet show, actually.
It was all about...
joe rogan
But he wouldn't do that.
I mean, that's why when they threw the frozen octopus in the water, he was mocking them.
valentine thomas
Exactly.
I mean, I understand why a lot of people see that in me.
I'm a girl and sometimes I'm a little bit girly and things like that.
And people are like, oh, all she wants is to be in a TV show and do this and do that.
I get why people would think that, but if you pass five minutes with me, you're going to realize it's not that at all.
joe rogan
I also think what you're trying to do is relay your passion for something.
I've struggled with that with bow hunting because I've done some things on camera.
I did a film last year for Under Armour where we went elk hunting.
But part of me is like...
Not everything should just be broadcast.
Not everything should be filmed.
Sometimes life should just be experienced.
Especially for someone like me who's...
I think I'm overexposed in the first place.
I would be better off doing less things publicly.
So that's one that I've decided to do less of publicly.
But part of me wants people to know...
That there's a satisfaction to, like bow hunting in particular, is very, very difficult.
It's very hard to do.
It takes intense practice.
It takes a lot of physical exercise.
You have to be able to run up the hills.
You have to have endurance because you're climbing through the mountains all the time.
And then it's hard to do.
It's hard to find the animals.
It's hard to get close enough to shoot one.
You have to be able to execute when the moment is there.
It's very difficult to shoot an animal with a bow and arrow, especially long distance.
I mean, you have to have an extreme amount of proficiency before you can ever pull that off under high-stress situations.
So part of me wants to relay that there's a misconception about what people see.
When they think of hunting, they think of cruelty, and they think of someone who doesn't respect nature, and they think of this...
Abusive relationship that humans have with animals instead of the way I look at it Which is you have this deep understanding of the food chain and this food chain exists whether you're there or not this food chain exists with Bears and wolves and mountain lions and deer and elk and all these animals are struggling for survival and all you do is Is interject.
You step in for a little bit and you take your part in the food chain and in turn you also give out all this money that goes to conservation.
This money that goes to conservation ensures that this opportunity be there for other hunters in the future and ensures that the populations of these animals will stay healthy and it ensures that they'll be monitored By the proper fish and game and wildlife biologists and all these different people that are going to ensure that this environment and this experience is preserved.
And the wild habitat that these animals enjoy will be preserved.
And for people, it's very conflicting.
For people, it seems almost hypocritical that you could say that you love these animals, but you also want to eat them.
valentine thomas
Yeah, but that's that's not what's what's what's what's the hybrid thing to do is to say that you love them and then buy them for grocery store not caring how they got there.
Yeah, that's when you're being ridiculous.
joe rogan
What's the problem is that's been available for so long.
We're used to it.
Like if there was just a machine that you could go to where you could just get your money from this machine.
valentine thomas
You talk to somebody about hunting and then they put their finger in the ears and they're like, oh, I don't want to hear anything.
And you're like, what?
joe rogan
Well, it's the same way the Wall Street Journal approached you with fishing, spearfishing.
It's the same thing.
It's not a well-thought-out, rational argument.
They're worried about outrage.
And in this day and age, it's very easy.
I had a picture I put up the other day of a Target that I have in my backyard with some arrows in it, and all these vegans are attacking me.
For shooting a fucking target.
valentine thomas
That's crazy.
joe rogan
I mean, they know I'm practicing.
I'm getting ready to shoot animals.
But all they're doing is...
There's no animal there.
It's a fucking rubber elk.
And they're getting angry.
Because that's what people like to do.
They like to express outrage.
And...
They talk too much.
There's too much expression.
Take it from someone who does talk too much.
Me, I talk way too much.
But they're not considering what they're doing.
They're just doing it.
And you don't change people's opinion by being an asshole online.
You just get everyone to realize you're an asshole.
unidentified
True.
valentine thomas
I got a bunch of vegans following me now because I took the time to respond to their concerns and now they actually got it.
But how can we make improvements when you have on one side an angry bunch of people that all they want to do is scream scandal or everything they see and then on the other side the people that matter that have a strong voice are scared to talk about everything because they're scared of that first group.
And then by doing that we're doing nothing.
I've been toning down a lot on my Instagram.
I stopped posting fish with blood on it or things like that because people just don't want to see it.
And I don't have a choice to do that because, again...
joe rogan
But what percentage don't want to see it?
This is the thing.
I mean, if someone eats fish, if they like sushi, and they get upset when they go to your Instagram page and you've got a spear through a tuna...
You're educating them in a lot of ways.
And the people that do get upset, even though you hear their voices, it's a loud minority.
How many followers do you have on Instagram?
valentine thomas
84,000.
joe rogan
Think what 84,000 people looks like in a room.
That's a giant number of people.
Now imagine 50 of those people are screaming assholes.
That's what you have.
valentine thomas
True.
joe rogan
It's a small percentage.
The number of people that see it and they're rational adults, they know that in order to kill a tuna there's gonna be some blood.
There's no bloodless method for killing a tuna.
It doesn't exist.
valentine thomas
But also, the weird thing is that, in a way, I understand the outrage on a certain level.
I went deer hunting for the first time in New Caledonia in last October.
And it was not with both, it was with an actual gun.
And when I shot the deer, I started crying.
I was like, oh my god, I killed Bambi!
And it was so bad.
And I get there, and it was like, oh, it was all cute and everything.
I'm like, okay.
And then it was dead.
And then I carried it on my back, and we walked back to the house.
And then they started cutting it in pieces, and it started looking like meat.
And my guilt went completely away.
Completely away.
And I was like, wow, how much of a hypocrite can I be?
Then I'm crying because I killed freaking Bambi.
Like actual physical tears going down my face.
And then the second I see a piece of meat, I just got excited.
I'm like, we're going to make burgers all of a sudden.
And fish is a little bit easier because a lot of us have seen whole fish as kids.
You know, you put a whole fish on the table so that the gore is a little bit less there.
So it's more about the blood than seeing the actual fish.
But I get it.
I know it's bad, but I felt really, really like a hypocrite after that.
I know.
joe rogan
I felt in a weird way.
I felt like a weird sense of loss the first time I shot a deer.
But it went away when I started eating it too.
And I never killed an animal before that, but I had killed fish.
I've been fishing since I was a little kid.
I love fishing.
But I didn't feel a connection with fish the same way I felt a connection with a mammal.
It's because it's closer to us.
It's closer to our species.
Fish is like an alien thing that lives in an alien world that breathes water.
valentine thomas
But again, the one that has like the human-like eyes, then I tend to feel...
Tuna is one of them.
I tend to feel...
It's true.
I have a picture.
I have to show it to you.
Tuna eyes?
It looks really...
You can see expression in their eyes.
That's the second way people are starting to feel like, oh, I'm a murderer.
joe rogan
Like fear?
valentine thomas
There's, I think it's curiosity, but I guess you can say fear.
joe rogan
How about it's just freaking out because it knows you're going to eat it.
It's anthropomorphization, right?
We look at animals that we attach to.
valentine thomas
See, that's one of them.
That's actually very, you see, that's kind of human-like.
joe rogan
Oh, that fish is an asshole.
I can tell looking at his eyes.
What is that?
valentine thomas
That's a duck toot, too.
joe rogan
Fuck, those teeth are amazing.
valentine thomas
Yeah, that's a pretty weird fish.
joe rogan
Look at that, Jamie.
Look at that, folks.
valentine thomas
So it's, you know, you can see like it's like a little bit white on the outside and then there's color and then there's a light thing.
joe rogan
It's just freaking out because it's looking out at the air for the first time.
unidentified
It's like, holy shit, there's another world up here, Claude!
valentine thomas
Guys, guys, you gotta see this!
joe rogan
Well, for a second he was.
Right there he's alive.
Or she's alive.
Yeah, it's probably freaking out.
It's outside the water.
Like, what in the fuck is this?
valentine thomas
Oh, if it was alive, it would have drawn my ass.
My hands were the sound of his gills, so if it comes back alive, this is a very, very strong fish.
joe rogan
Oh, I'd imagine.
Look at it.
It looks like a tank.
But, I mean, imagine being a fish.
You live your whole life in the water, and then all of a sudden someone pulls you out of it, and you look into the air, and you're like, what is this?
And why can't I breathe?
valentine thomas
Well, at least I did it very quickly, so that's the good thing about it.
joe rogan
Yeah, but it's gotta be a freakout.
And plus their brains are like the size of your fingernail, right?
valentine thomas
But I knife his brain pretty quickly.
joe rogan
What's that?
valentine thomas
I knife his brain pretty quickly.
joe rogan
Is that what you do?
Right in the dome?
valentine thomas
So you kill them and if you don't, you shoot them and if you don't kill them on the spot...
joe rogan
You shoot them?
valentine thomas
With a gun?
joe rogan
Really?
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
You shoot Tuna with a gun?
valentine thomas
With a spear gun?
Yeah.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
unidentified
Speargun.
valentine thomas
Oh, sorry.
Yeah, speargun.
unidentified
Sorry.
joe rogan
I thought you were like, bang!
valentine thomas
No, no, no.
joe rogan
Gangster lean, sideways style.
Shoot him right in the head.
unidentified
I don't think I'm strong enough.
joe rogan
Because I know they club them.
They club fish and they pull them on boats, but I didn't know they shot them.
valentine thomas
True.
But you shoot them underwater.
That's how you do it with a speargun.
joe rogan
You shoot them underwater.
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yes, I get that.
valentine thomas
And then when you get it on land, what I do is, well, what's most pivishing men do, you grab them from the gills.
That's a little gore, sorry.
Graphic content, beware.
And then you grab it by the gills and you knife it.
And it dies instantly.
joe rogan
Right.
valentine thomas
If you go line fishing or even commercial fishing, what they do is they just throw it in a boat and then it dies of asphyxiation for hours.
unidentified
We kill it as quick as possible.
joe rogan
And do you immediately throw them on ice?
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
You know what I didn't know?
valentine thomas
You bleed it first.
joe rogan
You bleed it first.
valentine thomas
Because you know when you eat sushi or fish and it tastes fishy?
It's very often the blood that makes that taste.
So every time we catch a fish, you just cut the gills, you let it bleed, and then...
joe rogan
That's the same with meat.
valentine thomas
It's the same with meat?
joe rogan
Yeah.
They butcher a deer, they'll hang it by its legs and cut its throat and gut it and let everything, let the meat bleed out.
valentine thomas
And it's dead already, right?
joe rogan
Yes, it's already dead.
valentine thomas
And fish, you have to do it straight away, almost in the water, if there's not too many sharks around, because the blood coagulates very, very, very quickly.
joe rogan
Right.
valentine thomas
And then it becomes too late.
joe rogan
And then it changes the flavor of the fish.
valentine thomas
Yeah, because when you fill it, you cut it on the side, and then when you flip it, there's just blood everywhere, and then it's tainting to me, and then it creates a taste that is not that good.
joe rogan
And I think that's one of the reasons why they soak fish in milk.
It changes the flavor, because I think, if I remember this correctly, there's enzymes in milk that destroy the harmful bacteria that causes fish to taste fishy.
And I think they said that this works also with meat and with chicken.
That there's a certain smell to chicken in particular that when you get it, like it might smell a little funky.
What that is is this certain bacteria that's on the surface of the skin.
And then if you soak it in milk, see if you can find that.
I read that, like, really recently.
jamie vernon
This is saying it helps odor-free cooking when you're doing fish or shark even, too.
valentine thomas
I tried with shark, actually.
Yeah, that's the only time I used a meal.
joe rogan
You eat sharks?
You monster!
valentine thomas
Well, I was in Montauk and I saw a guy was filleting a shark.
joe rogan
Montauk?
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
In Long Island?
valentine thomas
Yeah, in Long Island, yeah.
And then he was filleting like a small mako shark and I asked him for a piece and he gave me a slob of like...
I was like, okay, thank you.
So I walked over with my big piece of shark.
And what stroked me was like the smell.
It smelled like meat.
You can smell like the ammonia in it.
It was super strong.
And then I read online, it said put in milk and lemon juice for 24 hours.
joe rogan
Did you do that?
valentine thomas
Yes I did.
joe rogan
So lemon juice would break it down.
Was it good?
valentine thomas
Yeah it was good.
joe rogan
How do you cook it?
valentine thomas
I just fried it in a pan.
joe rogan
Do you have a special way that you like to cook fish?
valentine thomas
Um, it depends which one, but I really like lightly floured and just, I sear it in olive oil and then I cook it slowly in butter.
I'm French, I put butter in everything.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Have you become like more into cooking because you kill your own fish?
valentine thomas
Opposite.
joe rogan
Really?
valentine thomas
I actually, I mean, opposite in a way that I always love to cook and I got into spearfishing because of cooking.
So this is what made me fall in love with the sport, or the lifestyle you can call it.
It's the fact that catching my own food, I get access to amazing fish and seafood that couldn't be more fresh than that.
joe rogan
There's a guy named Hank Shaw.
He's been on my podcast before.
He's an amazing chef.
And he has a bunch of wild game recipe books.
And he got into it because he wanted the freshest ingredients.
And he wanted wild game ingredients as opposed to buying farm-raised or factory-farmed food.
He wanted to be able to cook amazing dishes from, say, a wild pig that he shot himself.
So he got into hunting because of that.
And because of that, he's very valuable.
For people that are really interested in cooking wild game because he was a legit, excellent chef before he ever got into hunting.
And then getting into hunting and now he writes books about it and he's very, very passionate about it.
valentine thomas
It's interesting.
It was a very similar situation to me.
I literally got into it pretty much just for the food.
Actually, the first two years when I thought it was pivishing, I didn't even like pivishing.
I was underwater scared of my own shadow.
joe rogan
For two years?
valentine thomas
I didn't like it.
joe rogan
But you said you liked it the first time.
valentine thomas
I liked it.
I liked the concept.
I liked what was behind it.
I fell in love with catching my own food and cooking after and all of that.
The spivishing itself, it took me a while.
joe rogan
So you were still nervous about it.
valentine thomas
I was extremely nervous, extremely nervous, like struggling to breathe.
And every time I was going for a spivishing trip, I couldn't sleep for a month.
I was literally imagining myself being chewed by a shark and this and that.
My trip's never been about that, even though I was completely petrified of them.
I've been lost at sea once, which was a pretty shitty day, I must say.
joe rogan
You got lost at sea?
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
What happened?
valentine thomas
About two years ago.
I was in Mexico, and I was with friends.
joe rogan
Fucking Mexico.
valentine thomas
I was so angry.
I hated a guy so badly.
joe rogan
What happened?
valentine thomas
So I jump in the water with a friend of mine that never spearfished before.
Your friend never spearfished before?
No, no.
He never did anything.
He's just like, I want to look around and see what you're doing.
joe rogan
How deep is the water?
valentine thomas
It's pretty deep.
You can't see the bottom.
And then the boats start going further and further and further and further.
And my friend is like, what's going on?
I'm like, nothing, nothing.
And I'm like, okay, we're going to start swimming from the shore right now.
joe rogan
For the shore?
valentine thomas
Yeah, for the shore.
So start swimming.
It was like...
It would have been durable.
It was like, I don't know, maybe a good like five miles maybe.
joe rogan
The fucking shore was five miles away?
valentine thomas
It was far.
It was like, I would have done it.
It was definitely been after dark when I reached the shore.
So I'm trying not to panic.
My heart is like pounding in my chest.
I can feel it in my throat.
It's drifting away.
joe rogan
Drifting away?
valentine thomas
For no reason.
joe rogan
Who was in charge of the boat?
valentine thomas
The captain that we hired.
That was American actually.
joe rogan
What do you do?
Just start drinking and not paying attention to you?
valentine thomas
Oh, wait.
And then we're stuck, so I told my friend, okay, let's swim.
We swam for about an hour, an hour and a half.
joe rogan
Oh, my God.
valentine thomas
And then a boat passes by.
So I started screaming and yelling, and I had my buoy.
Luckily, I was swimming.
And it passed next to me.
They wave at me like, hi.
I'm like, no, no, no, no.
I'm like, help, help, help.
I go completely nuts.
And then the boat stops.
And they pick us up and I'm trying to explain in my completely inexistent Spanish that we've been stranding at sea.
And the boat is like right there, super far away.
And they drop us to the boat.
The guy is asking me for money.
I'm like, I'm lost.
I'd seen my wetsuit.
joe rogan
The guy who took you to the boat is asking you for money?
valentine thomas
No, the guy that picked me up was asking me for money, for a tip, for rescuing me in the middle of the ocean.
I was like, sorry, I don't have a tip in my panties right now, but thank you for saving my life.
And then he dropped us to the boat, and then we get to the boat, and the guy's like, oh, I didn't put enough gas in the boat.
unidentified
Oops.
valentine thomas
I'm like, what?
joe rogan
So he ran out of gas?
valentine thomas
He ran out of gas.
joe rogan
So you were, he would never be able to get you?
valentine thomas
Never.
joe rogan
Holy shit.
valentine thomas
It was so bad.
And then we managed to, the Coast Guard came and they tried to tow the boat and they started telling the Coast Guard to like, go screw themselves because, because I don't want to pay for this, you're a bunch of assholes.
I'm like, can you stop talking right now?
joe rogan
Oh my God.
valentine thomas
And he literally insulted him so badly, the Coast Guard left.
joe rogan
Did they take you with them?
valentine thomas
No.
I was still on the boat.
joe rogan
Oh my god.
valentine thomas
With my friends, I were drinking.
I really didn't understand what was going on.
They were like, why are you so mad?
I'm like, just keep drinking.
joe rogan
So how did you get back?
valentine thomas
And then he managed to find full reception.
He called the cousin of his wife, his neighbor of this and that to come tow him.
He arrived like about an hour and a half later.
I got back to shore and the guy's like, oh, so what time are we going tomorrow?
I'm like...
Screw you.
I'm leaving.
I never want to see you again.
joe rogan
What time are we going tomorrow?
What a fucking delusional asshole.
valentine thomas
It was so bad.
And then we get to the car.
joe rogan
I know you almost died.
And I left you in the ocean.
And I didn't have any gas.
And I told the coast guard to go fuck off.
valentine thomas
Exactly.
I'm like, I'm never seeing you ever again.
And we get to the car.
And my friend's like, oh, I give him like $100 in chip.
Is that enough?
I'm like, you did what?
You did what now?
My hair looks like...
joe rogan
Is that the scariest thing that's ever happened to you in the water besides the tiger shark?
unidentified
Yeah, definitely.
valentine thomas
For sure.
joe rogan
Was there anything else like that?
valentine thomas
That really freaked me out.
joe rogan
That should freak you out.
Five miles is a long way to swim, especially if you don't swim distance all the time.
Did you have any flotation device or anything?
valentine thomas
I had one buoy about that big, and we were two.
I was more scared because it was about like 435, so the sun was getting down really quickly.
joe rogan
You wouldn't be able to see where the shore is.
valentine thomas
No.
I mean, with the lights, yes.
But I was more freaked about sharks and things like that when it's dark.
joe rogan
Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.
valentine thomas
So I had moments in spearfishing that was a little bit freaky.
I also had a blackout last year.
joe rogan
Underwater?
valentine thomas
Yeah, that's the biggest danger of spearfishing is actually blacking out.
It's not sharks.
It's not getting bitten by anything.
joe rogan
Underwater?
unidentified
Yeah.
valentine thomas
So basically what happens is that you dive down and then When you come to the surface, if you stay too long, your lungs on your way to the surface are going to expand back.
And then your residual volume of air that you have left in your lungs becomes really, really small.
So then the percentage becomes too low and then you pass out.
joe rogan
The what becomes too low?
valentine thomas
The percentage of oxygen in your lungs becomes too small and then you just pass out.
So basically your brain shuts down to make sure that a lack of oxygen is not creating any permanent damages.
joe rogan
Oh, what a shitty system.
valentine thomas
It's actually kind of smart.
joe rogan
Not in that time.
valentine thomas
But then that's what happens with people is that when it comes back up, if your buddy is not watching you, and that's why spin fishing is a team sport, if they're not watching you, if you pass out in the water...
joe rogan
What if they pass out too?
valentine thomas
You're going to sink right down.
joe rogan
You're both doing it at the same time.
valentine thomas
Well, the good system to dive is one person dives at the bottom, the person is watching the other one.
And then it's one up, one down, one up, one down.
And then you watch each other's back.
joe rogan
Is that what happened with you?
valentine thomas
Yeah, I was actually very lucky.
The guy that was diving with me lost his brother a few years before to a blackout, so he was looking at me very, very closely, and I was beyond grateful to see his face at the surface.
I knew it, and I knew he was going to blackout.
joe rogan
How did you know you were going to blackout?
valentine thomas
Because it was...
I dove down and I was aiming at a fish.
It was pretty deep.
I was at like 85 feet.
And I aimed for a fish.
It was in a pole spear or two.
It was in a gun and I missed it.
And I started chasing it in the water and then I missed it again.
I was like, God damn it.
And then I realized, I was like, whoa, I'm actually pretty deep and I've been there for quite a while.
So I start panicking a little bit.
So when you panic, you let air even more, which is completely stupid.
And then I start finning, finning, finning.
And then you start doing...
Finning?
Sorry?
Finning?
What does that mean?
Finning.
You wear fins?
joe rogan
Mm-hmm.
Oh, kicking?
You're trying to get to the surface fast?
valentine thomas
Yeah, exactly.
And then what happens first before you black out is you have a loss of motor control.
So I could feel like my body making weird movements and I knew that I was out of oxygen.
And then I knew that I was most probably going to pass out.
joe rogan
Wow.
valentine thomas
And then I came back, I came back, and then I saw that my friend was watching and I was like, I really hope you're really watching.
I hope you're really watching.
And he grabbed me and then he woke me up.
joe rogan
How far were you from the surface and you blacked out?
valentine thomas
I blacked out of the surface.
joe rogan
Oh, at the surface.
unidentified
Yes.
valentine thomas
Which is why it's called a shallow water blackout.
Because even if you're in deeper water, most of the time it happens at the surface.
joe rogan
So when you got to the surface, what did he have to do to wake you up?
valentine thomas
You have to take the mask off, you have to keep the head off the water, and then you have to blow on the ice because you have a high concentration of nerves, you slap a little bit, not too hard.
Call the person's name, and then you normally wake up pretty fast, unless you inhale water.
joe rogan
Was it like you had a dream?
Like, if you get choked out, like, one of the things that happens when you get choked out is you wake up, it's like you're dreaming.
Like, what?
Whoa, I was at a disco.
I was riding my skateboard.
Like, it's weird.
valentine thomas
I've never been choked out to the point of passing out.
joe rogan
I'd imagine similar, though.
unidentified
Luckily for me.
valentine thomas
But, yeah, I missed out in a few minutes, and I just wasn't sure what was going on, and then you're just done for the day when it happens, but...
joe rogan
Yeah, you have to be done, huh?
valentine thomas
Yeah, for the risk of getting another one the same day is actually very high.
joe rogan
Wow, so once you shut off, you get shut off again?
valentine thomas
Yeah, so you have to wait at least the following day to get back in the water.
joe rogan
Did you jump back in the next day?
valentine thomas
I think I did.
It was the day after.
I really want to go back in the water as soon as possible.
joe rogan
Just to jump back on the horse?
valentine thomas
Yeah, so at night I was a little bit stressed out and my friend gave me some kratom and it was fun.
joe rogan
Oh, that stuff.
I used to think that stuff, that kratom, was...
I didn't think it was a drug.
I thought it was a mild stimulant.
I heard that people take it for pain.
But I thought that when they're taking it for pain, that they're not getting high.
They're just taking it and it alleviates pain, like Advil or something like that.
And then I took, I think I took eight of them.
Eight or ten, which is a lot.
Because I know Chris Bell takes like ten every day.
valentine thomas
Oh, but it's like, it's a pill?
joe rogan
Yeah.
valentine thomas
Oh, okay.
I took it in powder mixed with like...
joe rogan
Yeah, this is just the powder and pill form.
And I was high as fuck.
And I was like, oh, okay.
Now I know why people are nervous about this stuff.
I mean, but the weird thing is, I was high, but my body was very functional.
Like, I was high, but I wasn't uncoordinated.
I wasn't, like, knocking things over.
It wasn't that.
Everything worked normal.
Like, everything was moving as I wanted it to move, but I was like, whoa, I'm fucking tripping.
valentine thomas
Isn't it an opium derivative?
joe rogan
It is an opiate.
It operates on your opiate receptors in some sort of strange way, which is one of the reasons why they're making the argument that it should be illegal, but if...
Any opiate is legal.
It should be that one.
Because it helps people tremendously with addiction, tremendously with pain.
It doesn't seem to be toxic to the point where it can kill you.
Or it's very, very rare that it does.
It seems to operate in a completely different way than any other opiate.
And like I said, even though I was definitely high, like I was definitely under the influence of something, nobody, I don't think anybody knew.
I mean, I could have conversations with people, but in the back of my head, I was like, I'm so high!
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
But I'm talking to people and it was all totally normal.
I wasn't driving, but if I was driving, I think I'd be fine.
I was fine walking.
I think I even worked out.
Oh, really?
Yeah, it just operates in a very different way.
I've had my knee operation.
I had one of my knee operations.
They gave me a morphine button when I was in the hospital.
They said, if you want morphine, just press that button and it'll give you some morphine.
I just fucking hate that thing.
Because once you get high off the morphine, you're in the hospital, you're like, this is great!
Keep pressing the button, and the pain of the knee is...
Also, my knee was on this motion machine.
Right after the surgery was done, they put me on this machine that extends and contracts your knee, brings it back and forth, and that's not comfortable.
But when you hit that morphine pad, bang!
valentine thomas
That's fun.
joe rogan
But other than that, I never really have had opiates, I don't think, except...
They gave me a pain pill prescription.
I don't remember what kind it was.
It was Vicodin or Percocets or one of those.
I took it once and I hated it.
It just made me feel really stupid.
I just remember thinking my brain is just really dull.
And I still could feel the pain.
I just didn't care.
It was weird.
valentine thomas
Those morphine buttons are very dangerous.
When I got my operation, I keep pressing the button too because I thought it was really fun.
Until they told me, well, it's time to go home.
And I stood up and I fell right on my face.
I had a complete faceplant.
joe rogan
Really?
valentine thomas
Yeah, like an actual complete faceplant.
joe rogan
What were you in the hospital for?
valentine thomas
I was an urnium.
joe rogan
Hernia?
valentine thomas
Yeah.
joe rogan
And they didn't ask you, like, how many times you pressed that button, Valentine?
valentine thomas
They definitely didn't seem to have taken into consideration my weight.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah, right?
You're tiny.
Well, why wouldn't they ask you how many times you pressed a button before they let you get up?
valentine thomas
I don't know, but I remember the woman being like, the nurse being like, like, you had a lot.
You sure you want more?
You sure that much?
unidentified
Fuck yeah!
valentine thomas
I was like, yeah, bring it in.
I'm fine.
unidentified
Fuck yeah!
joe rogan
Well, once you're under the influence of it, I imagine you don't really worry about it.
valentine thomas
Nah, you don't.
Until you pass out.
joe rogan
Well, listen, Valentine, I'm glad we did this.
It was really fun.
I'm glad we had this conversation.
I think, like I said, I think what you're trying to do with your life is admirable.
Life is short.
I wish more people would chase their dreams and live their lives in a way that they want to, rather than just jump into the fucking rat race.
valentine thomas
I'm definitely not regretting any second of it, so I'm happy I did that.
Thank you so much for having me here, and it's crazy how you came up.
I was asking a friend of mine for a podcast to listen, and he talked to me about yours.
I was sitting at a beach in the Bahamas, and my friend Arunas that went to law school with me was like, oh, you should listen to this Royal Oregon podcast.
It's awesome.
I look you up on Instagram, and I saw you were following me.
unidentified
I was like, nice!
joe rogan
Well, there we go.
valentine thomas
My friend was like, what?
No shit!
joe rogan
Well, we did it.
Thanks for doing this.
I hope maybe this opens up some doors for you and some things happen.
valentine thomas
Well, if people stop hiding behind their closed-minded opinion, let's see.
joe rogan
I think slowly but surely, conversations like this open doors and change people's perceptions.
And that's what I hope people got out of this.
valentine thomas
That's good.
If I have one message today, talk about it.
Know where your food comes from and don't be scared to see what's going on.
joe rogan
And live the life the way you want.
That's what you're doing.
valentine thomas
Oh yeah, get out of your comfort zone because you're never going to discover the person you are by staying in there.
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