All Episodes
Aug. 4, 2014 - The Joe Rogan Experience
02:49:59
Joe Rogan Experience #530 - Vince & Emily Horn, from Buddhist Geeks
Participants
Main voices
e
emily horn
17:30
j
joe rogan
01:33:14
v
vince horn
52:09
Appearances
Clips
n
neil degrasse tyson
00:35
| Copy link to current segment

Speaker Time Text
unidentified
If you hear those clicks, that's me typing, ladies and gentlemen.
joe rogan
I'm not the fastest typer in the world.
But I get it done.
This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Blue Apron.
Blue Apron is one of my newest and most favoritest...
Sponsors, because what essentially is, is they send you all the ingredients for healthy meals, and you cook them yourself by their directions, with their recipes.
All the portions are measured out perfectly, along with spices and detailed photographs that show you what to do in all the various parts of the recipe.
It's really interesting, and it's kind of fun, too.
Because cooking, you know, if you...
If you get like a recipe book and then you have to go to the store, you have to buy the individual ingredients, you have to measure them and weigh them and all that stuff, that's a lot of extra work that Blue Apron sort of cuts out.
And they also provide you with a wide variety.
Of different meals to choose from, which makes it interesting.
It becomes like a little bit of a project, which I think is fun.
But really, really yummy foods like coconut curry, salmon steaks, Swedish meatballs with braised kale, stuffed cabbage rolls.
I've eaten several meals from them so far.
The amount of calories that you get from these meals also, it's pretty surprising.
500 or 700 calories is just very low.
For really yummy, delicious foods, but they're all prepared and designed by people who really know how to make yummy, delicious food.
It's not hard to do.
I'm not a great chef, obviously.
Did I have to say that?
It's like saying I'm not a doctor.
I'm not a great cook.
I know how to cook a few things, but with this Blue Apron thing, I find it fun.
I find it like a little bit of a project.
It's a lot cheaper than ordering out.
Everything is $9.99 per meal.
That's all the ingredients in the exact right proportions with simple recipe instructions right to your door.
And like I said, there's a wide variety of things that they're going to send you and things to choose from.
It's really delicious.
It's very healthy for you.
Incredible meals.
And I think you'll be blown away by the quality and the freshness.
All of it comes In like this styrofoam container, all sealed up with ice bags, whatever they use, ice packs, frozen things, dry ice.
Is that what it is?
Yeah, all that shit.
Whatever stuff they use to keep it from rotting, that's what it really is.
But it's delicious.
Go to blueapron.com slash rogan and get your first two meals for free.
That is blueapron.com slash rogan and get your first two meals for free.
Really delicious.
I'm really happy with it.
I use it all the time now and I recommend you give it a shot.
Especially when you get your first two meals for free.
We're also brought to you by LegalZoom.
LegalZoom.com is a way where you can handle a lot of stuff that you would ordinarily have to go to a law office for.
You can handle it all online.
And everybody knows that anytime you have to deal with any office where you have to make an appointment and go there, that's a huge pain in the ass.
You have to take time off work.
You have to figure out how to get there during normal business hours.
There's a lot of things that people take care of in law offices that you can take care of with LegalZoom.
Self-help is the way to go with all these different...
For the longest time, there's so many different parts of our society, of our civilized world, that you would have to go and talk to an expert, make an appointment, spend an exorbitant amount of money paying this expert to deal with shit.
you could do with all sorts of legal things on your own, like a power of attorney, get a will, living trusts, forming an LLC.
All that stuff is super easy to do on LegalZoom.
LegalZoom also has an A plus from the Better Business Bureau, which is a huge relief if you're dealing with some sort of, I mean, like, what are they doing?
They're fucking, what are they doing?
They're legal help online?
What?
It sounds like it could be shady.
LegalZoom has helped tons of people.
We know so many people that have used it.
It was originally used to start on it.
Brian used it to form DeathSquad.tv, the LLC for that.
Tom Segura and Christina Pazitsky, I think they use it too.
It's really easy to do.
Any moron who knows how to just fill out forms can do it.
And if you get into a panic while you're doing it, they can connect you with a third-party attorney.
LegalZoom is not a law firm, but they provide you with self-help legal services at your specific direction.
And like I said, if things feel like they're going horribly wrong, LegalZoom can connect you with a third-party attorney.
It's super easy to deal with.
Ladies and gentlemen.
And very, very economical as well.
And for a special savings, be sure to enter Rogan in the referral box at checkout.
So go to LegalZoom.com.
You can even get divorced.
How about them apples?
Probably not, though.
Let's be honest.
Most of the time when people are getting divorced, there's a little gamesmanship going on.
But if you're amicable, if you both look at each other and go, let's just fucking end this, you can go to LegalZoom.com and take care of it.
Anyway, go there, use the code word ROGAN in the referral box at checkout, and save yourself some money.
That's LegalZoom.com.
Do you like my new song?
unidentified
It's very good.
joe rogan
Thank you.
Yeah, don't use that LegalZoom.
I'll write a better one for you.
Anyway, Emily and Vincent are here from Buddhist Geeks.
And let's just get cracking.
Why fuck around?
LegalZoom.com.
Music over Rogan.
unidentified
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.
The Joe Rogan Experience.
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.
I've got to figure out a better way to do commercials.
joe rogan
Because it's always weird when two people out of three are just sitting there and one person is talking, doing a bunch of money.
It creates an uncomfortable air in the room.
Am I right?
unidentified
A little bit.
joe rogan
A little bit, right?
It's a little odd.
Buddhist Geeks.
Somebody sent me a link, I guess it was probably a couple weeks ago, on Twitter to you guys.
And right away I went, oh, this could be interesting.
A convergence of, would you say spirituality, Buddhism, and technology?
And geeks, which always is somehow connected with impairment in vision.
Which is very strange, right?
Like, being very studious and intelligent is connected to your eyes are fucked.
Like, every...
You know?
I mean, you're...
vince horn
Staring at screens all day, I think.
joe rogan
Is that what it...
It must be, right?
Because as I've spent more time in front of the computer, my eyes have steadily gotten worse.
But your image, the logo is the Buddha with glasses on.
So even the divine are not immune to the perils of LCD screens.
vince horn
True enough.
joe rogan
Is there a better way around this?
To do something where it doesn't completely destroy your vision?
vince horn
Maybe clairvoyance could develop that capacity.
joe rogan
That's the only way?
Reading does it too, right?
Because we've always associated reading with...
Or is it just getting old and we're just blaming it on a bunch of other shit?
vince horn
Could be that.
But I think it's staring at things up close.
I think the eyes just get used to staring at things up close and then they just can't see far away anymore.
That's my theory.
joe rogan
With me, it's the opposite, though.
My up-close vision is starting to suck.
But my vision, like looking at you guys this distance, is fine.
It's perfect.
vince horn
That might be age, then.
joe rogan
Yeah, I think it's age.
Also, because when I put on reading glasses, things just get sharper.
I'm like, oh, that's what things really look like.
You know, like, I could read everything without the glasses, but then when I put them on, I see, like, if you look at pages, you can see the actual detail, the texture, and the paper itself.
That's all gone to me.
That's all gone in the real world.
What is Buddhist Geeks?
What are you guys doing?
vince horn
Well, we started several years ago as a podcast doing this kind of thing, talking to people.
And really in the beginning, it was just my sort of early 20s rebellion against the Buddhist tradition.
And I wanted to talk to people that weren't part of the mainstream Buddhist world, but had something cool to say, I thought.
So we just basically started by talking to some different rebels, a lot of Gen Xers who were kind of coming up as teachers and meditation experts or masters.
And it sort of started there just as a kind of whim project with a couple friends.
And then people responded, so we kept doing it.
And we felt a sort of obligation to continue exploring Buddhism, technology, culture, the way it's globalizing.
And we just sort of from there have just been on a sort of I love it.
joe rogan
I love that Buddhism has rebels.
vince horn
Absolutely.
joe rogan
What is the main thing that people fight, not fight against, but rebel against with Buddhism?
vince horn
I think it's like most religions, you know, there's some aspect of just rebelling against people telling you what to do or the feeling that, you know, this system of beliefs is telling you how to live or what to do with your life.
I think that's part of it is just kind of breaking apart dogmatic structures and sort of saying, hey, actually, we can make this our own and figure out how to do it ourselves because we're the ones that are interested in it.
So we have to sort of take ownership of that.
And so there's a bit of like, I guess, generational...
Pushback, you know, and saying, actually, we don't want to meditate like the hippies did.
You know, we don't want lotus flowers and incense.
You know, we want like our computer screens and meditation apps.
You know, we want to do it the way it makes sense to us.
joe rogan
Is that an effective way to do it?
Like meditation apps?
Is that real?
Is that legit?
Are there like some recommended meditation apps that are better than traditional forms of meditation or an alternative, I should say, to traditional forms of meditation?
vince horn
I think there are.
There's some good ones.
I think they're good to start.
I mean, as soon as you start really getting into it, though, then it's useful to, I think, still meet space has the upper hand over the app space.
joe rogan
Interesting.
vince horn
Yeah.
But I'd recommend Buddhify.
That was one that Emily and I contributed to.
And it's a modern mindfulness on the go app.
So it sort of teaches you how to meditate in different contexts, like if you're at the gym or if you're, you know, on the tube.
You wrote one for working on the computer.
emily horn
Yeah, I've wrote a couple for working on the computer.
So it's really just about trying to bridge what we're doing already in our lives with meditation practice and these ancient traditions that have come down.
joe rogan
What is the app for working on the computer?
What does that entail?
emily horn
The Buddha-Fi is the app and then the couple of meditations that I wrote, it's just simple things like bringing your attention to different kind of anchor points.
For example, you know, we all usually have some sort of touch screen mobile device.
And so, you know, you can use it to bring your attention back as you swipe it, you know, back and forth with your finger.
So it's just something, you know, very simple to return to so that, you know, consciousness and the mind can start to just kind of settle so that you know you're more aware.
And by being more aware, it makes a lot of difference.
joe rogan
When you say more aware, you mean because a lot of people are kind of scattered?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
They're all over the place and thinking about the past.
emily horn
Yeah, because we're on Facebook one minute and then we're on, you know, all kinds of different apps.
You name one.
joe rogan
Is Facebook the devil?
emily horn
No.
unidentified
I don't know.
vince horn
Sometimes.
emily horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
There's no meditation in Facebook though, correct?
vince horn
Not yet.
joe rogan
Not yet.
What I think Facebook's...
emily horn
We have to bring it into it.
joe rogan
It's a fascination with social interaction, right?
That's what it is.
It's this thing where, you know, I read this piece that was talking about the origins of gossip and what gossip is all about and why so many people are into celebrities and celebrity gossip, the Kim Kardashian stuff and that kind of thing.
And the big thing being that our culture doesn't have the same sort of communities that it once had.
These tribal bonds that expanded from 50 to 150 people to cities of 30 million.
They're very confusing for our biology, apparently.
vince horn
Absolutely.
joe rogan
And so that's why people gravitate towards what seems to be really inane.
Like this pull towards, oh my god, she left him and he went up with her, and oh goodness.
You see those magazine covers, you just want to grab them.
And people who have no part of your life at all, you shouldn't be caring about them even remotely, but for whatever reason, you're compelled to do it.
Just a little bit of that with the Facebook thing, right?
vince horn
I totally agree.
I mean, I read a great article that said, in some sense, Facebook brought that experience of living in a tribal village back as a technology, kind of a la Marshall McLuhan and his whole sort of theory about every technology brings something back from the past.
joe rogan
Yeah.
McLuhan has one of my favorite all-time quotes, is that human beings are the sex organs for the machine world.
unidentified
Ooh, yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's the greatest ever, right?
That is one of the all-time greatest...
JBS Haldane's, not only is the universe queerer than you suppose, it's queerer than you can suppose.
That's my number one favorite.
But number two, right up there.
vince horn
Nice.
joe rogan
Because it is.
I mean, McLuhan was right.
What are we doing?
We're making computers and we keep making better ones.
We're essentially the evolutionary device that causes the things that we've created to accelerate far quicker and innovate far quicker than biology ever has a chance to.
And in the process, we're also, seemingly at least, on the verge of creating some sort of an artificial biological life.
Whether it's biological, I mean, I don't know what you call artificially created cells that interact with each other the same way human cells do, but we're pretty goddamn close.
Whether it's 100 years or 200 years, pretty close to making artificial people.
And where's that coming from?
It's coming from people.
I mean, if they are machines, biological machines, McClellan will be right.
And then a new life form will be birthed out of our greasy little hands.
Not ours, obviously.
vince horn
Yeah, I think that's right.
I saw Elon Musk on Twitter a couple days ago said, increasingly, looks like we're going to be the biological bootloaders for digital superintelligence.
joe rogan
Yeah, most likely.
There's a bunch of people that don't believe that's happening.
I read this interesting article on Kurzweil.
The guy was very critical of Kurzweil.
And he was...
I think this guy's sort of...
He's a curmudgeon a bit.
He's an intelligent guy, but his criticism of Kurzweil was basically a biological criticism that our understanding of the human mind is already...
It's fairly limited in terms of like how the human mind processes various hormones and neurotransmitters and proteins and that there's no way we'll be able to recreate that because our ideas of the human mind, the biological mind, are still constantly evolving and changing and growing and that we're not really ready yet to duplicate the human mind.
But my take on that was that we don't have to duplicate the biological functions of it to duplicate the actual functions of it.
Because if they figured out a way to make something that not only mimics the memory banks or the memory access of the human mind, but is much better than that and does it in a completely different way, a non-biological way, and they can figure out a way to download intelligence or download consciousness or memories into that bank, Well, we're not going to really need this whole idea of cells and proteins.
Those are the components of the biological machine.
But if we can make a better version of that and do it like some sort of a synthetic version or some sort of an artificially created version, it doesn't seem to me that we're going to need to know everything about the human mind in order to recreate its processes, right?
Does that make sense?
vince horn
I mean, it makes sense.
I feel like I'm not enough of a specialist on artificial general intelligence to really know the difference.
joe rogan
The problem is I don't think anybody is.
I mean, there's a bunch of people that are working really hard at it, but no one's ever done it.
So if you haven't done it, how the fuck are you an expert?
I mean, if there's not an artificial human being that is state-of-the-art version 7.0, capable of compassion, understands its actions...
vince horn
Hopefully it will be.
joe rogan
Well, it has to be, right?
Otherwise, we're going Terminator style.
vince horn
That's right.
joe rogan
That's the real question, though.
Sort of like the way we did nuclear power before we learned how to shut off nuclear power plants.
I hope they don't do that with artificial intelligence.
Like, well, let's just get this thing up and running, and then we'll figure out a way to give it emotions.
vince horn
Yeah, no, I mean, that's what scares me a little with the AI stuff is that it's so much focused on the rational thought process.
And yet, you know, my experience of being human is that that's barely part of my human experience.
Occasionally, I'm rational, I have thoughts, but mostly I'm just like reacting to things and emotional.
And, you know, I don't even know what what's running most of my processes.
joe rogan
Yeah, that is an issue, right?
emily horn
Yeah, and I think it's also interesting to see, just bringing a little bit of the feminine perspective, and it's like, I'm very conscious of like, you know, childbirth and some of these, you know, natural things that are on my mind a lot.
And so thinking about merging with technology or creating some sort of artificial intelligence, it seems to me that a lot of these conversations start to navigate really quickly towards getting out of the body.
And so I, you know, wonder if there is some sort of bridge between, you know, we're going to create something new and at the same time, like you were saying, like infusing that with wisdom and compassion and some of these biological processes.
Are we ever really going to get out of that?
I don't know.
It's just an underlying assumption a lot in these conversations that I think is interesting.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's fascinating because the general idea of the human body and the needs of the body, whether they're the needs for food or the need for the human touch or the need to breed, all these different things will be completely unnecessary if we're no longer biological.
And what is causing war?
What is causing greed?
What is causing jealousy?
Are these ancient monkey ideas that are stuck in our genetics, these mechanisms that have sort of forced us into the future?
They forced competition.
They forced us to cope and adapt.
They forced us to learn to interact with each other.
And along the way, we've sort of developed these methods for managing the biology and meditation being one of them.
Meditation and mindfulness and trying to be centered and being the present has sort of...
It emerged because so many people are like, wow, my fucking head's all over the place.
Hey, this is what I've learned.
If you just do this and say, this is where I am, this is what I'm doing.
All that other stuff is nonsense.
I concentrate on this, and this I can get things done with.
But if I... Live in the past and worry about all the mistakes that I've made and allow them to define them, allow them to define me rather, they can be very limiting and they can really ruin your perceptions in a sense or flavor your perceptions in a very unsatisfactory or very unwelcome way where your day can be burdened by the past.
Or you could be in the...
All these things are sort of designed to allow us to navigate the biological waters, right?
To figure out what is the push and pull of this machine?
Like, why is this machine jealous?
Like, what's going on here?
Why does this want me to be upset at someone else's success?
Why does this want me to be upset that someone is attracted to someone else other than me?
Why does this want me to be upset at someone else's house or someone else's...
You know, family or whatever it is that is tweaking you.
What's going on in here?
Well, it's the machine wants competition because the machine has gotten you to 2014, where a million years ago a monkey crawled out of a hole and figured out a way to draw an arrow that points towards where the food is, the other monkeys live.
Oh, that way?
You could go like, oh, I see what you're doing.
And then those ideas compiled and they piled on to other ideas and before you know it, a million years later we have a civilization, a complex civilization that has all these different influences that have led us to this point.
But a lot of them are biological.
A lot of the very motivations for doing most of what people do on a daily basis are very biological.
When those are eliminated, it becomes a real question of like, what's life?
What exactly are we?
And if we reproduce through test tubes or whatever the hell it's going to be, when we become 3D printers or whatever it's going to be, when we become biological copies or artificial biology, what are we?
And what is life?
vince horn
Yeah.
emily horn
Those are really important questions.
joe rogan
I guess.
I guess.
vince horn
One thing I thought was interesting as I got into the transhumanist stuff, you know, a while back was that, you know, they use this term mind uploading, you know, to kind of predict, you know, we'd be able to upload our consciousness into the cloud and stuff like that.
But I thought it was interesting that later, I realized they never then use the term body downloading.
So why is it that you can upload your mind to the cloud, but you can't then download your consciousness back into different kinds of bodies?
And I think it speaks a little bit to what Emily's saying, that there's a lot of the shadow of the geek culture is a disdain for the physical body and a disdain for limitations, which I totally understand because I think there's part of us that wants to transcend the limits of being human.
And it's the same thing that drives the Buddhist meditators to seek for enlightenment.
It's to realize this thing which is beyond, in some sense, the limitations of the human experience.
And yet, you know, the real mature expression or realization in the Buddhist tradition is to realize that and then to return back into your incarnated physical form and to fully inhabit it.
So I hope that the transhumanists and the folks that are building these seeds of digital superintelligence realize that even if we're able to upload our patterns into the cloud, we still, if they're still beings who have a sense of themselves and have some sort of physical if they're still beings who have a sense of themselves and have
whether it's carbon or silicon, That they're still going to have to deal with certain issues of incarnation, of being in a form, a physical form of some sort, even if it's a very loose, digital, very fast flickering form.
There's still something there and there's still some sort of reference point.
And I think that's where the Buddhist tradition has something to say, even about superintelligence and what that experience would be like.
Because as long as there's a form, and as long as there's an identity, right, like a reference point, a me, then there's going to be certain kinds of issues that we can't get rid of.
Like, then I have to deal with you, and I have to deal with these other yous.
And then there's things or objects outside of me, and some of them I want, and some of them I don't want, and some of them I'm just going to ignore.
And so even if I were a super intelligent consciousness, which I can't imagine because my imagination is so limited, I still think there will be some amount of fundamental dissatisfaction that's built into the experience of being an individual who has a reference point.
And I think that's in some sense what the Buddhist path is about seeing clearly, is that most of our existential suffering and despair comes from This fundamental experience of being a separate being who exists on this side of my body.
joe rogan
But isn't the experience...
I mean, if you really stop and think about true enlightenment and being completely in the moment, doesn't that exist in the animal kingdom exclusively?
I mean, that's the only way they exist.
They exist completely in the moment.
And in a sense, that is the most biological of all creatures.
And that's a creature that has no existential issues.
They don't have any angst in terms of their future, their past.
They live and exist completely in the moment.
So isn't it just our awareness of the futility of this existence that's part of the problem?
Because along the way, we're innovating, we're expanding, we're growing, we're doing all these different things, we're Going to biohacking conferences and whatever the hell you're doing.
But at the end of the day, you live and you die.
You have a very short window here.
And it's like, what are you supposed to be doing?
Are you supposed to be enjoying it?
Are you supposed to be leaving it better for the people that come after you?
And what's their purpose?
Why leave it better for them?
And what are they doing?
They're just leaving it better for the next?
And at the end of the day, what are we doing?
We're just enhancing this Giant superorganism known as the human race.
And for what purpose?
Because we're helping it pollute?
Because we want more planes in the sky?
We want better cell phones?
The existential angst of being conscious, of being able to recognize that this is kind of...
At the end of the day, this is just a weird little trip you're on.
You're on a birth-to-death trip and...
If you become something that's not human, if you become something that's not burdened by biology, it's not burdened by sexual urges or any of the petty urges of modern human life that we all struggle with, what exactly are you here for?
What exactly is going on?
And motivation might be the number one problem.
With artificial intelligence.
It might not even be compassion.
It might be that artificial intelligence It becomes so intelligent that it's like, we're not doing shit.
I'm not doing nothing.
Why would I do anything?
Why would I expand?
Why would I move on?
Why would I make more of me?
Why would I do anything?
Why would I explore galaxies?
I don't even have ovaries.
I don't have a mind.
I don't have a sense of futility.
I don't have a beginning and an end.
I can make another one of me with a button.
What am I doing?
Am I going to go see the top of the Grand Canyon?
For what?
For what purpose?
What am I going to do?
I'm going to fly in a plane and go to Paris?
Why?
What do I give a shit?
I don't have any desire to learn.
There's no urge to improve and innovate.
I'm not biological anymore.
What has created everything that we have?
Everything that we have, every building that we've ever made, every work of art that we've ever created, is essentially this thing inside human beings that wants us to innovate and create.
This thing that has allowed us to radically reshape our environment, that has allowed us to design cities and buildings Pieces and pieces of art and pieces of architecture and all these different things that we've created has all come from that same desire, that desire to continually improve.
But if the human body, if we transcend it with some sort of an artificial creation and we become far more enlightened and intelligent, the ultimate question will be why?
emily horn
Well, I would say the ultimate question for me would be, who are we?
joe rogan
Yeah, what are we?
emily horn
Yeah, or what?
Because, you know, when I'm listening to you talk about this, I'm like, huh, there's a part of me that's like, no, like, let's not do that!
And then there's this other part of me that's like, yeah, that desire to create and that desire to move forward and the evolutionary, like, impulse in us all is so strong.
And that's what makes us so beautiful.
And so when I really touch into the mystery of it all and the beauty and the wonder and what you're talking about with the art, to me, it's like not such a question of trying to get out of this anymore.
It's more like a question of how can we use these technologies and the things that we are learning through science and the natural laws of things Because honestly, if we start to violate much more of our natural laws, our oceans are going to rebel and our Earth is going to become unstable, and we're seeing some of that.
So we do have to balance the biological component with the evolutionary impulse.
And one thing that comes to my mind is philosopher Ken Wilber talks about transcend and include a lot.
So what if, you know, part of what we're doing is learning how to transcend some of our limitations as human beings and at the same time include some of those limitations?
That keeps us grounded.
I think that's really important as well.
Transcend and include.
joe rogan
Yeah, I just wonder what would happen if we eliminated all of our biological urges, and would things just completely stop?
Why would anybody create art if we don't want to impress other folks?
vince horn
Well, I think if we have a choice, maybe some individuals would choose to eliminate those things, and maybe some would choose not to, right?
emily horn
Not to, yeah.
vince horn
What if there's like a huge diversity and it's not just one thing that we become?
What if it's like many things and people just kind of decide to go off and reprogram their consciousness in various ways?
joe rogan
Well, I've always been fascinated by this idea of constant improvement.
And it's sort of what...
It fuels modern corporations, this idea of constant growth.
It fuels human beings.
No one is happy with where they are.
They want a bigger house.
They want a better car.
If they're an artist, they want to create their latest, greatest masterpiece.
They don't want to sit on their laurels.
They want to consistently, constantly improve.
vince horn
Where's the iPhone 6?
I'm still waiting on that.
joe rogan
Waiting!
I'm waiting!
We have this consistent, constant need for improvement, and that is essentially designed into the evolutionary process itself.
That's what led single-celled organisms to divide.
Become multi-celled organisms to get out of the ocean, to seek land, to seek shelter, to seek improvements in altering its environment in order to protect itself from predators, which led us to the 21st century, to where we are today, having this conversation.
That somehow, I don't know if you understand it, but I don't understand how my voice is being processed down into ones and zeros and pumped through the sky and people are getting it on their phone right now as they're driving in their car.
This is madness.
This is a mad, mad, mad world.
And what's the urge behind all of it?
Well, it's this biological need.
For innovation, this biological need for constant improvement.
And it's designed in the evolutionary process itself.
I mean, it's a part of the evolutionary process.
I mean, why do animals evolve?
Why don't they just say, fuck it, if these fish keep grabbing us, let's just stay the same color and go extinct.
No.
Bugs, you know, they start...
Like, have you seen...
Caterpillars that look like predators, they develop eyes on their backs so that they can look scary, so that less animals eat them, or at least they've gotten to that point where that design...
I mean, I don't know how you can ever really truly completely explain some of these butterflies that have these elaborate images that have sort of emerged throughout, I mean, how many hundreds of thousands or millions of years of evolution, but it's incredibly fascinating that they've...
We've developed this need to figure out how to trick animals so they can continue to breed.
They've improved.
They've innovated.
If you could really talk to a butterfly and go, listen, dude, you only live a week.
What do you care?
If you die or your relatives die, what kind of a bullshit life is this?
You know, you live a week you fly around people go ooh look at the butterfly and then it's over like let a bunch of lizards you Let's just get this over with let's you know come back as a better bug Figure out how to exist as a microbe inside the body of the animals that are eating you and then Develop from its poop into some magical plant that enlightens the people that eat it or something But living as a butterfly is bullshit But they don't think that way.
It's part of this process.
Continue to innovate.
Constantly push forward.
Make things better.
If we stop being biological...
Does everything just stop?
What is the conversation then?
If you don't have a motivation, if you don't have an expiration date, if you don't have people's sexual choices to appeal to, if you don't have people's social choices to appeal to, if you don't want people to like you, if you don't have any desire biologically, what's the motivation?
vince horn
Well, I mean, obviously this is highly speculative in a way, but...
Maybe I'd just throw in one piece and kind of bring it back down to the analog version of intelligence, which is these human bodies sitting here having this conversation, if that's okay with you.
I'd say there's another piece that's really important in what you're saying.
There is the drive to innovate and to transcend, but then I think there's also a very powerful force that moves in the other direction and I would call it compassion or care or love and it's that part of us that wants to include everything like Emily mentioned transcending and including you know we can become better and better and better but what good is it if everyone else is left behind you know what good is it if we're you know living living the high life and there
are millions of people who are struggling to feed themselves At some level, when we get in touch with the reality of that, there's part of us, if our hearts are open, that really resonates with the pain of that and wants to include and wants to respond to that suffering and to that difficulty.
And I think that's part of the reason life exists as well.
It's one of the primary reasons.
It's not just to transcend, but it's also to care for and to respond to the needs of others because we realized it's not just about us.
It's not just this experience that's important.
There are all these others that are also having an experience and they're not unlike me.
And that's why compassion can exist because I realized Your experience is not unlike my experience.
There's a way in which we have this common hardware, wetware, this common sense of consciousness, I assume, this common hopes and fears, desires.
And so in that sense, I think compassion is a really powerful force that also holds life together and keeps it from flinging apart into the ethers.
joe rogan
But the cynical and objective amongst us would look at that and say, well, that's just a mechanism in order to keep society together to allow this consistent innovation.
You need people to stay together in order to get people to work together in order to get the maximum amount of productivity out of the human mind and creativity.
I mean, there's only one way.
They have to love each other.
If they don't love each other, they're not going to build shit.
They're going to go live like Ted Kaczynski and hide up in the woods in a little shack and try to stay away from each other as much as possible.
Part of the reason why we do so well is because we have compassion.
It could certainly be considered an evolutionary device to ensure innovation and constant growth.
And it has.
I mean, every society that has done well has been a society that cherished its members.
If you don't give a fuck about your members, you get a North Korea-type situation.
Where there's no innovation, the country's stagnant, everyone lives in fear, the lights are off at night, and that's a worst case scenario for a modern culture, and that is based almost entirely on those same ideas.
The lack of compassion for your fellow beings Exhibited, like, if you looked at the one thing, or you asked people, what's the one thing that troubles you most about a brutal dictatorship like North Korea?
Well, the poor people that live there.
The poor people that are suffering that live there.
Our compassion is a part of what makes us, it's a component, a critical component, which makes us successful.
vince horn
Yeah, and I think, you know, you can look at it from that perspective, but I think there's other ways to look at it, which is that compassion in and of itself is a good thing.
You know, that there's something inherent in the experience of compassion, of the open heart that's responding to suffering, which is in itself good.
And that, you know, when you experience and touch into that space, which completely dissolves cynicism in the moment of it, there is this feeling of this is right.
Like, this is right to respond to the difficulty of other beings, because on some fundamental level, we aren't separate from each other.
And in some fundamental way, the level of the universe itself.
You know, everything arose out of this momentary Big Bang, right?
That's our current story about it.
Like, okay, what the fuck was that?
What was that that it all came from?
This nothing, this infinitely small point in space.
Actually, you know, the Big Bang isn't something that happened in the past.
It's something that is happening right now.
It's something that which was prior to the universe is still here.
And that is also our nature.
And that nature is naturally compassionate.
It naturally responds.
It naturally includes everything.
So I think there's something in us that also wants to reunite with our own deepest...
joe rogan
But does it really?
Because if that's the case, then how do you factor in predators?
How do you factor in the constant competition in the wild that exists everywhere?
Compassion really only exists when there's safety.
It's the only time it exists when, you know, when you worry about your own existence constantly.
It's like this rabid sort of primal struggle when all that is put to rest and you build up walls and you have a fire and you can hold each other and everyone's together and fine.
Then there's the room and need for compassion.
But with the eagle and the fish, there's no compassion.
emily horn
I think you're speaking to our habitual patterns that get ingrained in us as we grow up.
And with the Buddhist training that I've been through, it really does teach us how to start to deconstruct some of that training.
I mean, compassion naturally arises in a moment's notice without there being this strong sense of contraction around our small sense of self.
You know, when your child reaches for the stove, you're going to try to jerk it back because you don't want it to burn itself, right?
That's a level of compassion.
That's naturally arising.
joe rogan
You're in a mentor role.
You're teaching this human being about things that it doesn't understand yet.
I would think of more of compassion as someone you have no biological connection to at all.
And you see them in need of help.
And there's something that's inherently satisfying about that when you do help someone.
It's very strange.
Me and my friend Todd were driving.
We were in North Carolina.
We were driving down the road, and we saw this car.
It had its hazards on, but they were really, really dim, and it was on the side of the road.
And as we passed the car, maybe a couple hundred yards later, we saw a guy lying on his back.
And we went, oh shit, something happened.
So we stopped the car.
We got out.
We helped the guy.
We called 911. We got the guy up.
He had severe asthma.
His car ran out of gas.
And he had an asthmatic attack and fell.
And we spent a bunch of time with this guy and the cops.
And after it was over, we had this feeling.
The guy was safe.
They got him in an ambulance.
They took him to the hospital.
The whole thing was resolved, and we had this elation, this light feeling of happiness, that we did something.
Yeah, we were tired, and we'd just flown in, and we would rather just go to our hotel, but instead, we spent an hour or so, and we felt way better.
It's like this feeling of elevation.
You've helped your fellow being.
emily horn
Right.
So it's naturally programmed in us.
And so therefore we can continue to cultivate that.
And so it's more of a consistent state that's present.
That's what I've learned.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's where the cynic would say that the whole reason for that is so that these humans can breed and make more humans who figure out a way to make a better electric car, who figure out a way to make a wormhole.
emily horn
It also reminds me of science and the mirror neurons, too, because we're learning that we're mirroring each other and what you're doing is affecting me and what I'm doing is affecting you.
And it's rewiring our brains as we're talking.
So in that sense, we really are so connected that we don't even realize how connected we are.
So, in a sense, yeah, it is one of the most important things.
joe rogan
That connection is undeniable.
And it's fascinating when you see people change the people that they hang around with, and they all of a sudden improve or regress.
And that's a consistent pattern with human beings.
You find a really good group of friends who are super healthy and like to do a lot of exciting, fun things, and they're compassionate to each other, and you start mimicking that behavior, or at least mirroring that behavior.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Or when you're around people that are just complete messes.
emily horn
So we don't have to be ruled by our biological desires.
So when you're saying, like, greed and hatred and competition and all that, then, I mean, maybe that is where we are at a certain point, and some of us are, and with evolutionary drive to continue to create and open and really deepen into what some of the Western traditions have been talking about, then, you know, it's possible to, like, I don't know, evolve ourselves as we're even talking here.
joe rogan
Yeah, but my question remains, like, when you remove all these biological urges, what is the purpose of this thing?
Because it doesn't seem to me that there would be any reason to go on if you removed everything biological.
emily horn
And that's just, yeah, that's just something.
I mean, you can think like that.
joe rogan
But what would be the purpose?
vince horn
I think it's hard to know.
I mean, this is my point of view.
It's hard to know because we don't know what it would be like to be whatever that is.
emily horn
Our minds go and try to construct it all.
vince horn
So it's sort of like, we can only imagine what it would be like not to be like we are, but it's hard to imagine what it would be like to be something that has not yet emerged.
So maybe we could have a follow-up interview when we've all attained super intelligence.
joe rogan
We'll be no need for podcasting.
vince horn
Well, we can get together in the instantaneous mind meld, which is intelligence and riff on this.
joe rogan
That, to me, seems more likely than any of those other scenarios.
I wonder what the next step is.
I've stopped many times and I've spent entire days thinking about...
A thousand years from today to a thousand years from now.
Like, what is the difference?
And what is the difference going to be?
And how radical is it going to be?
How radical is the shift?
And I really have a feeling that it's going to have nothing to do with the body and all to do with the mind.
And I think that this idea of transcending the human body and I have a feeling they're gonna figure out some way that the human mind can access other states, dimensions, levels of consciousness that literally the human body will be irrelevant.
emily horn
Well, it already can.
vince horn
Oh yeah, we already can access all kinds of crazy states.
emily horn
You know, that's some of the things that I've learned in meditation.
vince horn
Or psychedelics.
Psychedelics, yeah.
joe rogan
Right, but what's going on there?
What is that?
Do we know?
What is that?
Are you opening up the floodgates for human neurotransmitters and the body's ability to process them gets skewed and it presents you with all sorts of...
You know, delusional beliefs and crazy visions because your visual cortex can't process all these chemicals correctly, so you have this wild, fantastic ride.
It gives you this sense of euphoria and this elated sense of being.
vince horn
Disillusioned with it, huh?
joe rogan
No, not at all.
No, just completely offering the devil's advocate point of view.
vince horn
Yeah, yeah.
No, I appreciate that.
I mean, I think that point of view is coming at it from the biological, physical perspective.
joe rogan
Yeah.
vince horn
But then there's also the perspective of consciousness itself, you know, of the experiential aspect of it, which is, I think, also part of the challenge...
Of our moment in time, I think, is starting to recognize that both of these perspectives are valid, that the perspective of consciousness of experience is also valid.
So, from the perspective of consciousness, you know, Those altered states of experience reveal something valid.
Now, whether or not we can, from that point of view, describe the biology of it, I think it's clear we can't.
And so it's useful to have a description of, like, this is what's happening in the brain, these areas are deafferentiating, and then these areas are lighting up, and all that stuff.
But that's not all of who we are.
We're not just brains.
joe rogan
Right.
vince horn
Because, you know, we're having thoughts about brains.
And the only way brains exist is through our internal representations of brains and in terms of human consciousness.
So I think, you know, that'd be the other perspective is like consciousness itself is also a valid perspective on this.
And from that point of view, you know, those moments of altered experience of, like, compassion, like you described, when, you know, you realized you helped the person in Asheville and were there for him, or, you know, when your child's born, or when you, you know, take a hallucinogenic approach, Medicine with the intention of learning more about your, you know, your deepest nature or something about yourself or going on a meditation retreat and exploring your experience moment by moment.
I think those things reveal very important truths that are at the level of consciousness itself that, you know, you can't convince a skeptic or a That they're true, but you can give them the instructions and say, hey, run this program and see what happens.
And if you do it with a certain kind of intention, then it changes your life.
It changes your perspective.
It changes your sense of who you are and what this is all about.
And I appreciate that you're pointing out the one side of it, which is that...
Yeah, this is a limited trip.
We don't really know what the hell's happening here.
We don't know how we got into this body.
At least I don't remember how I got into this body.
emily horn
I don't know why.
vince horn
I don't know why it's happening.
joe rogan
Right.
vince horn
And then we're going to die at some point, and we don't know when.
That's the other thing.
We know we're going to die, but we don't know when.
We don't know how.
We don't know how long from now.
And so there is a certain kind of in-your-face situation I think we're constantly coping with as human beings.
And compassion can be a way to cope with that and love.
There's a term that this Tibetan master used who came to America in the 70s named Chagyam Trungpa, and he said, there's compassion and then there's idiot compassion.
And idiot compassion is when you are trying to respond to suffering because you can't handle it, because you can't actually deal with it.
So you try to make it go away, or you try to, oh, poor you, poor you, that kind of compassion.
So compassion can just as easily be a way to cope with the shocking reality that we don't know what's even going to happen next, let alone what's going to happen in 50 to 100 years from now.
Does that make sense?
joe rogan
Sort of.
I always felt like compassion was just the way that we kept together, that we kept our love for each other and bonds, and that feeling other people's pain is a way to ensure that we minimize that as much as possible, that it's just sort of part of the biological process,
especially the biological process of transcending the simple monkey mind and moving into some new state, the ability to understand each other, communicate, express information, and also To be able to conceptualize very bizarre ideas that human beings have kind of based their entire society on.
We based our society on bizarre things like laws, regulations, money.
The bandwidth, you know, there's weird concepts that we have had to factor in to our view of the world, the environment, our interaction with that environment, our effect on that environment, how much can we mitigate that?
How much is just a necessary evil to maintain our wonderful existence with air conditioning and high-speed internet?
I mean, what are those thoughts?
Where are those things going?
And how much of those are connected to, again, the same thing, this constant need to stay together, help each other innovate, help each other move forward, press forward, and continue to grow?
And is something like Buddhism or Transcendental Meditation or anything, are these just sort of like ways to get through this in a relatively sane way?
Are these essentially man-created technologies, human-created technologies to mitigate the natural world?
vince horn
I mean, in a way, they clearly are.
I mean, because humans sat under trees, you know, in India, 2500 years ago, thousands of years ago, and explored their own minds and did come up with various, you know, programs for how to work with experience.
joe rogan
Isn't that fascinating that someone a long time ago was looking around at people hacking each other to death of swords and was like, you know, there's got to be a way around some of this shit.
What's going on here?
emily horn
What is going on?
joe rogan
Why is everybody launching arrows over the top of those walls?
What the fuck are we doing?
And why in India?
What the hell is going on in India?
vince horn
Yeah, no, India's been the birthplace of a lot of developments in consciousness.
joe rogan
Not coincidentally worships cows, who not coincidentally make cow shit from double undulate animals that psilocybin mushrooms grow on.
Completely connected, for sure, without a doubt.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And soma.
You know, the ancient Vedic traditions and all these ancient Hindu texts that speak of these psychedelic drugs.
We don't even know what the hell they were.
These important psychedelic aspects of their culture that are completely lost.
Like, no one knows what Soma is.
It's a huge part of their ancient religious tradition.
And, you know, whatever it is, is completely up for debate.
Some feel it's a combinatory drug with...
You know, the Amanita muscaria and psilocybin and all sorts of different things, but no one knows.
Just all guesswork.
But that's gotta be a part of it, right?
Someone ate some mushrooms and said, those cows are awesome.
We need to fucking keep those guys around.
Don't eat the cows.
Eat this.
Oh yeah, don't eat the cows.
This came from the cows?
Yes.
You know, like what a trip.
Bunch of starving people letting cows go because the cows make shit that mushrooms grow on.
vince horn
Yeah, I mean, I think it's crazy too that people figured out how to pay attention and use their body in a way to produce some of those effects endogenously, you know, to be able to experience that even without mushrooms, you know, to be able to get into those kind of states of consciousness and even to stabilize them, you know, as a kind of baseline of existence.
joe rogan
Well, kundalini masters, people that are really good at kundalini, I have a friend who teaches it and he says that he can reach these complete psychedelic states where he's interacting with beings that may or may not be there that he can visually recognize in front of him.
Like he can see it as if he's tripping.
And I'm like, how are you getting there?
It's just years and years and years of mindfulness in this very specific practice.
vince horn
Right.
Concentration, you know, is always tied to, in every contemplative tradition, these sort of psychedelic or psychic experiences.
It's like the ability to focus and to be able to absorb consciousness in one thing seems to be the gateway into which, you know, all of those other weird experiences can arise.
joe rogan
But you're told to not pay attention to those experiences, that that's like, you're missing the point if you're trying to seek out these hallucinations.
Right.
vince horn
Some traditions, a lot of Buddhist traditions do sort of suggest not getting sidetracked by them.
joe rogan
Yeah.
emily horn
But they inform us and change the way that we can relate to things.
So they are important.
unidentified
Yeah.
emily horn
But they're not the end goal.
joe rogan
They can definitely do a lot of good work.
emily horn
Yeah.
vince horn
Yeah.
And a lot of weird shit.
joe rogan
Oh yeah, that too.
vince horn
I mean, sorcery, like in Tibet, you know?
There's all these people out there casting weird stuff at each other.
I've been to Tibet, so I don't know how much of it is you can just see weird stuff happening and how much of it is their mythology.
But all the same, there's enough weird stories coming out of places of people that have been sitting in caves for millennia, exploring their own consciousness.
emily horn
So we're already uploading...
vince horn
I mean, we've been, I guess, uploading, at least on some level.
joe rogan
Well, the artwork itself is representative of these experiences.
If you look at Tibetan artwork, it's so trippy.
vince horn
It's mind-blowing.
joe rogan
So psychedelic.
vince horn
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
We did a meditation a couple weekends ago and one of the guided meditations was to imagine a lotus flower in your heart that had a thousand petals and each petal was shooting off a beam of clear light that connected with another petal in another being's heart and that sort of spread out infinitely but it also went in Both directions, like in terms of the atomic and quantum level and the universes within atoms.
And it went outward in all directions.
And I'm like, okay, these dudes were, you know, because they mostly were dudes that were able to do this.
These dudes were like exploring the furthest reaches of the inner, you know, cosmos.
joe rogan
What do you mean by they were mostly dudes that were able to do this?
vince horn
Well, I mean, the cultures of Tibet and most of these places, you know, there were nuns and there were women doing the practices, but I don't think they had as much opportunity to do them because of the organization of their cultures.
joe rogan
But there's not a biological limitation in achieving these experiences, right?
unidentified
No.
vince horn
Actually, the Tibetans say women have an easier time at these practices for some reason.
joe rogan
Yeah, I would imagine that because testosterone is so controlling and limiting in that sense.
There's so much ego-bound to testosterone and also the mortality...
Of testosterone, like being the one that survives and all that is inexorably sort of connected to the sex hormone of the male.
I would imagine that that would be more limiting.
vince horn
Emily is a better meditator than I am.
I practice twice as hard and experience half the results.
joe rogan
Do you guys ever go in sensory deprivation tanks?
emily horn
I have not done that.
vince horn
I haven't done that yet.
joe rogan
How dare both of you?
vince horn
I know, I know.
joe rogan
This is such a confusing thing to me because I've been such an advocate on the sensory deprivation tank and I talk to so many people that are into meditation.
I'm like, how do you not use the one tool that is essentially designed for the best meditation possible?
vince horn
Well, retreats, you know, we've both done a lot of months of intensive retreat, and it's kind of like sensory deprivation.
I mean, you don't talk, you don't, you know, you eat what's in front of you, you're sitting in silence most of the time.
Like, it really does limit the sensory input.
Right.
And, you know, I've been in states of consciousness where all sensory input sort of disappears for a while, so I feel like I've had that experience of...
joe rogan
How could you say that, though, if you haven't done it?
If you haven't done the actual tank itself...
vince horn
Oh, I don't know how it compares exactly, but I know what it's like to experience a lack of sensory input.
joe rogan
Right.
At least on a certain level.
vince horn
On a certain level that, you know, there's no sense of visual sight, sound.
It's actually probably deeper because there's no sense of the body at all in those states.
It's completely formless.
joe rogan
Deeper than what?
vince horn
Deeper than if you're laying in a tank and you still have an experience of the senses of your body.
Like, if you can still feel your body.
Can you feel your body in a sensory deprivation tank?
joe rogan
No, that's the whole point.
vince horn
Okay, so it's probably similar.
joe rogan
More intense.
This is why.
I've done both.
In the sensory deprivation tank, you're weightless.
vince horn
We'll have to do it.
joe rogan
You're floating in water that's the same temperature as your skin.
So you don't recognize where the water ends and your body completely ceases to send information to you.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And if you guys are already good at meditating, meditating in a tank would be like turbocharged.
vince horn
Probably right.
joe rogan
100%.
Guaranteed.
I can't believe you haven't done it.
vince horn
Why don't you have a sponsor yet?
joe rogan
I have one in my basement.
I have a tank in my basement.
I go in that sucker all the time.
vince horn
You need a new advertiser here, I think.
joe rogan
Well, I sort of help my friend Crash, who owns the Float Lab in Venice, but I don't do it for financial compensation.
I just do it because I want people to know about it.
But I retweet people's tanks all the time that I have no affiliation with whatsoever just because I think it's a massively important tool.
That is somehow or another slipped through the fingers of our consciousness.
I don't get how people haven't grabbed ahold of that and ran with it.
emily horn
I read a study one time that says a lot of people once they have some sort of opening, we could call it mystical experience for lack of a better word right now, that a lot of people don't want to have them again after they've had it the first time.
Something about the opening kind of freaks people out.
joe rogan
Those people are weak.
It's just scared.
emily horn
But I'm just saying, yeah.
And it can be scary for people.
So it seems like the expansion of consciousness is something that is naturally in us as well.
And so thinking about the technology where we started this conversation a little bit, it's like there is this impulse to explore and to expand and upload into different states and realms of being.
joe rogan
But that fear of expansion, that's just the ego.
That's all that is.
That's just your body trying to reclaim some sort of walls.
Let's put boundaries on this sucker so we can clearly define it.
When you have a psychedelic experience, one of the things that's the most talked about aspect of it is the boundary dissolving aspect of it.
The boundaries all dissolve.
I remember one of the first times that I did a really potent psychedelic was, 5 MEO DMT and the overwhelming message from it was that there's no up and there's no down and that you're just a part of the the infinite and that feeling is very like saying it like this is it sounds like just a bunch of noise coming out of your mouth that sort of vaguely represents what this concept would be but Experiencing it in a psychedelic state was so
overwhelmingly educational and so It was so boundary-defining, like whatever I had thought of as a boundary in the past was now like, oh, that was just this and this is just that.
And what you really are is one thing that is holding all these other things that are all a part of this huge thing.
And this huge thing is you're in it.
You're not separate.
I'm not separate from you.
You and I are these containers that are inside of this.
There's air and there's always something there.
There's no nothing.
It doesn't exist.
There's no nothing.
There's no nothing anywhere.
Even nothing is something.
vince horn
Yeah, no, Shinzen Young, one of our favorite teachers, he says, emptiness is not a thing, it's a pure doing, which is sort of another way of saying, I think, what you're pointing to, that everything is just happening as it is, and there's no, in a sense, there's no thing.
That even goes beyond all of that.
It's just this.
It's just this happening that's happening.
joe rogan
Well, the universe also is like a soup.
It's not like you're not throwing a ball through the air and someone's catching it.
It's not hitting anything.
It's not a vacuum.
The whole thing is just filled with something.
It's all connected.
Like, you and I aren't really separate from each other.
We're just not touching skin.
But we're touching something that's touching us.
And that, you know, we're all feeling that.
Boy, that sounds hippy.
unidentified
Woo!
joe rogan
That's some hippy shit.
vince horn
But it's also true.
joe rogan
Yeah, in some way, it's also true.
And that these ideas, whether it's meditation or yoga or psychedelics or these ideas of mindfulness, are in a lot of ways an attempt to escape this monkey realm, to escape this biological realm that we find ourselves in, to try to, if not escape it, rather to manage it.
emily horn
Transform it.
joe rogan
Yes.
emily horn
I would say transform it.
joe rogan
To what, though?
emily horn
I don't have a good answer to what.
That's kind of looping back around where we started this conversation to what.
joe rogan
Right.
But isn't that like building a house and you don't have plans?
Like, what are you doing?
I'm just putting shingles on this thing and it's going to hopefully be something.
vince horn
I think we each have to answer that question to what.
joe rogan
It's a very personal thing in that way, I think.
vince horn
I mean, I think it's personal in one way, but it's also collective in another way because we, you know, we influence each other and we get attracted to things that are connected with what's important to us.
But, you know, to me, to what, you know, I think what's beautiful is, you know, to move toward deeper sense of wisdom, to move toward being able to live in harmony with that realization of interconnectivity, of deep, of the kind of profound interconnectivity that you're describing, you know, that Literally, at some level, there isn't a separation between us.
How does that then inform how I live?
How does that change how I live?
Do I sort of say, oh, what's the fucking point and just give up?
Or do I take that experience and begin to dismantle habits and ideas and beliefs that are opposed to that experience and actually begin to live more in harmony to You know, in the kind of language of contemplative training, to embody that realization, to make it your own, you know, and to make your life an expression of that, you know, expression of that interconnectivity and compassion.
Deep care and love for each other.
Including cutting through all the bullshit.
Including calling out the delusion.
Including pimp smacking the bullshit.
Which is, I think, a big part of what I see you doing here.
emily horn
And I would just say leaving room for the what to change.
That's not like a fixed thing that we're going to transform into this fixed thing.
We're going to continue to change and to evolve.
And so that's beautiful to me.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's certainly beautiful from a biological standpoint.
I mean, I'm not a cynic in that I don't love life and I don't love humans because I enjoy this experience incredibly.
I think it's an amazing time.
I think being a person is great.
I love it.
I love people.
I love all the fun things you could do as a person.
But what I'm trying to get to when we're talking transhumanism and this escaping the boundaries of biology is There's a guy that we talked about on this podcast before that got bitten by a shark.
It's an Australian cat.
He lost his arm and his leg.
And they replaced it with this carbon fiber creation.
He's moving around.
He's standing there, no limp.
Guy walks around, normal.
Has his hand that, you know, it's kind of crude.
But it does move and it can pick things up.
And I'm like, wow, this is quite fascinating.
Like they said to this guy...
Hey, I know you got your arm and leg bit off by Shark, but lucky for you, this is 2014 and we have some incredible innovation that we've created that's gonna allow you to have this leg that moves very much like a regular leg and you're gonna have a hand that can do a lot of things that a regular hand can do.
So that's better than not having that arm and leg.
And yes, and guess what?
It's gonna get better.
Five years from now we'll have a better arm and a better leg and you're gonna enjoy this.
Well, as time goes on, the other parts of his body start failing.
Like, you know what, man, there's a problem because you have this artificial right leg, your left knee is gone, so we're going to replace your left leg too with this artificial leg.
So this way you'll have two artificial legs, but they're going to work great.
Okay, great.
Okay, listen, man, your heart is going.
But, good news, we have an artificial heart, and we're going to take this artificial...
And a hundred years from now, this guy is just a brain in this carbon...
Fiber body and he's looking at his eyes.
He's looking through these artificially created eyes and they say, listen, everything works great except the cells of your brain are reproducing irregularly and you're going to develop Parkinson's.
But we have figured out a way to download your consciousness into an artificial brain.
So we'll just download your consciousness into this art and what's left of you?
You don't.
There's nothing.
There's no biology anymore.
And, well, what's there then?
When you sit there, like, they turn that switch on and you're, you know, 2.0.
What goes on there?
vince horn
Well, from a Buddhist perspective, what's there is your karma.
What's there is the pattern that was you leading up to that point.
You know, the information that made you up and that has continued to move into this new substrate.
And that pattern has a momentum to it.
It has a history.
It has memories.
It has beliefs.
It has various things.
It's not a complete discontinuity.
The substrates change, but the pattern has continued in some sense, right?
joe rogan
Maybe.
How much of that pattern is based on biological need?
How much of that pattern is based on this cultural conditioning and just the patterns of behavior that you've adopted along the way in your life and the environment in which you grew up in?
How much of that goes away when you have a brain that's made out of fibers that are constructed out of silicon or whatever?
vince horn
I guess it depends on how it's constructed.
emily horn
This reminds me of, I don't know if you've had the experience, and some of my teachers talk about this as an example a lot, is looking in the mirror now, and you kind of get surprised that you've aged, but there's something in you that you don't feel has aged.
Do you ever have that experience?
I do.
joe rogan
In what way?
emily horn
Just like, you know, you just, there's part of you that hasn't aged, and then at the same time, if you look in the mirror, you can tell that you've aged.
Does that make sense?
There's a piece of us that's like, I don't know, I still feel like nothing's changed.
joe rogan
Inside?
emily horn
Inside.
joe rogan
But your vehicle.
emily horn
But then I look in the mirror and I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, my time is ticking even though I'm young, but I get that.
So there's this...
It's a paradox kind of at play.
So when we're talking about, like, if we do upload or what is it that is still there, like, I wonder if some of that will still be there, that feeling of nothing's changed.
And then there is this change that happens and we age.
joe rogan
Well, if we'd stop aging, I mean, if it completely ends, or if it's a temporary aging, we just got to go and get repainted.
You know, I mean, if your car gets a patina from, you know, rocks and chips on the road and stuff, all you have to do is bring it to the body shop.
It's old cars that look awesome.
You know, we can't do that with a human being.
But if we can...
There's companies that specialize in replacing every single part of an old car and creating you a new version of an old car.
That is ultimately incredibly possible for a human being.
emily horn
I think that's possible.
joe rogan
That's crazy, though.
You know...
emily horn
And there is this part of us that wants to live forever.
I mean, the holy grail, like, some of these myths have existed for a long time.
joe rogan
Everybody wants to sleep, but nobody wants to die.
emily horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's quite fascinating.
Everybody's more than happy to shut off for eight hours, like, just, oh, yeah, here we go, nothing.
unidentified
Yeah.
vince horn
And what I find bizarre is, like, I find it bizarre now, is, I mean, a lot of the fear of death seems to be connected to a fear of the unknown, of what would happen after death.
Like, am I just going to disappear?
You know, what's going to happen?
And not knowing that is part of, I think, of the terror, the feeling of not knowing what's going to happen.
And what I find interesting is, you know, and we were just talking to one of our Zen teachers who teaches here in Santa Monica, she pointed out, you know, in every moment we actually don't know what's coming next.
You know, that not knowing, it's something we're constantly having to deal with, the terror of not knowing.
Or, you know, as her Zen teacher called it, the don't know mind.
You know, and so...
I find it interesting to kind of reflect on what it's like to rest in the not knowing, to rest in that sense of not knowing what's going to come next.
Because in that moment, every next moment is both a death of this moment and the rebirth of something new.
There's something new coming online and there's something...
Disappearing.
And in that sense, I think if we become comfortable and familiar with that process of moment by moment birth and death, then, you know, whatever happens, whether my consciousness gets uploaded to the cloud or I die, there's some sense, there's some part of me which is fundamentally okay with that death process, that constant dying.
And that was the thing I always thought was funky about the attempt to escape death.
Because actually, in order to escape death, we're going to have to go through so many deaths of who we think we are.
Like you're saying, to transplant your consciousness into a silicon brain, some part of you dies in that.
And so we're trying to escape death by running into it headlong.
joe rogan
Well, also, what if death is merely a transitionary phase?
What if you live in this existence, but when you die, you will enter into a new existence?
And this is what many ancient religions have speculated on throughout the beginning of time.
I mean, since the beginning of time.
Everyone thinks that there's some sort of, I mean, whether it's wishful thinking or whatever it is, It might be real.
Just like consciousness is a very bizarre thing to try to define, but it is certainly a real thing.
You know, if you tried to put consciousness in a lab and say, like, what is it that causes creativity?
Define love in some sort of a chemical process.
Well, good luck with that.
Good luck with trying to figure out what that warm feeling is when you see your friend at the airport.
emily horn
It reminds me of that Time Magazine cover that says they couldn't find the God particle.
Do you remember that?
joe rogan
Yeah.
emily horn
Yeah.
And the brain.
They can't find it.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Well, what is it?
There's so many different aspects to what is life, what defines this existence for the person who experiences it themselves, and does that transition to something else at the moment of death?
And is that why the brain produces all these endogenous psychedelic chemicals that give you, when you take them, give you this elated sense of being, give you this This sense of relieving of anxiety and this sense of connection to everything and everyone that exists.
Why do those exist?
Why are those chemicals in the mind and why are they released at the moment of death?
Why are they released at the moment of extreme stress when your body's worried it's going to die?
Why are those released during the dream state?
What is that?
And would we be trapping whatever consciousness we have now In this artificial creation, if you can download consciousness into some artificial creation, is that a hellish existence for that consciousness?
Because it's no longer able to transition to the next phase of being?
And would you be able to transition to that next phase of being as a biological entity?
And then realize, like, oh my god, what did I do with my consciousness?
I left it back there in that fucking robot.
vince horn
And who would be conscious of that if there was no consciousness?
joe rogan
Yeah, well, what is it?
What is that thing?
What is the life?
What is the life that transitions?
The life expires, the light goes out, and you pass over, but yet this robot wakes up and it's you, and it has no lifespan.
It has no whatever, no sexual urges, no need for community.
It's just this thing that has all of your memories.
I hope you don't design the future AI. Well, we have real problems if we design it to mimic and replicate biological life.
We have real problems there.
vince horn
I think we'd have real problems if we didn't, too, right?
joe rogan
That's true as well.
Well, the biological us would.
Yeah, because that's where the Terminator comes in.
It has no need for us.
Yeah.
Everything that we are, as far as the way our society is structured, as far as our senses of fairness and love and compassion...
They're all based on biological urges and needs.
The need for community is a strong urge to keep us all together so we stay alive longer.
All of these things are a part of being a biological entity.
And when we no longer are, why would we engineer all those biological urges and thoughts and concepts into this carbon fiber creation?
vince horn
I've heard the argument, and I think this is interesting too, though, that the need for community goes back to the very earliest moments of the universe.
That, in some sense, when atoms emerged, they emerged in collectives.
They didn't just emerge as a single atom.
When a single thing emerges, it emerges also with a collective.
In that sense, the sense of community is hardwired maybe into the universe itself.
joe rogan
But isn't also the sense of competition then?
Because all biological life is this wild race of things eating things.
vince horn
Birth and death.
joe rogan
Including vegetarians.
I mean, the whole idea is these things grow and these other things come along and eat them as they grow.
And there's no way around it.
Life eats life.
And you can try to keep your...
Biological footprint as small as possible and do as little harm as possible, but every step you take is killing life.
Every time you close your mouth, you're killing bacteria.
I mean, when you wash yourself, you're killing living things.
There's a lot of weirdness to this whole life that is tied to survival, tied to birth, death, and the prolonging of the species, or the improvement of the species as it tries to prolong.
vince horn
Absolutely.
I mean, it's a paradox, too, in a way.
joe rogan
But isn't that part of what's cool about being alive, is that it's not going to last?
I mean, that's one of the big issues with the transhumanist movement, this idea of transcending the biological limitations and living forever.
But then it sucks.
It's like a movie that's 100 hours long.
You know, I don't want to see Star Wars for 100 hours.
I want to see Star Wars for two hours.
Because at the end of two hours, it's awesome.
Like, that was a great movie!
unidentified
Yay!
joe rogan
You walk outside, you're in the sunlight, you talk about how great that moment was with your friends.
Everybody's happy.
But if Star Wars goes on for infinity, it fucking sucks.
You know, a hundred years later, it's still going warp speed and Chewbacca's like, fucking get me out of here.
This is terrible.
This movie sucks.
You know, why?
Because it's boring.
I don't want to see it for a hundred hours.
I want to see it for two.
Is that life itself?
vince horn
I mean, the question I would ask is, you know, is it true that there will be no limitations if we transcend our biological limitations?
Or is it the case that there'll be new limitations that we can't fathom, you know, that become, again...
And this ties in with the question that we've asked ourselves with the Buddhist practice.
Is enlightenment an end state or is it an ongoing, ever-unfolding process?
And I think if it is an unfolding, ever-evolving process, then that means there will always be, as long as there's stuff...
There will always be limitations.
There will always be something that's not quite as perfect as it could be.
Or that, you know, is not quite it.
And so in that sense, I would guess that...
I mean, this is my guess.
It's not that we would transcend limitations altogether, but that we'll transcend certain ones and then discover new ones.
And then the whole process of creative tension will begin again at some new level.
And we'll be like, oh, shit.
Like I really don't appreciate the fact that I can't have two experiences simultaneously.
There's just one experience.
Even if I can move between multiple realms really rapidly, I still can only have this one moment of experience.
And that's just a guess.
Maybe one of the limitations.
joe rogan
Well, that's fascinating you bringing that up because that does open up a different realm of possibilities.
We can transcend the limitations of biology and that includes experiencing multiple things simultaneously or the ability to experience multiple lives like if we figure out a way to combine our consciousness or whatever we call our consciousness once we transcend biological life and combine our minds so that we do experience the lives of multiple people if not the entire human race that's on the same track Experience it all simultaneously and
that this is beyond the realm of biological understanding.
Maybe that's where we evolve from this thing and become something that's far more complex and complicated.
vince horn
Unless one aspect of that decides it doesn't want to be merged into the whole, and then you get warring factions.
joe rogan
Warring factions.
emily horn
We'll just recreate our problems.
joe rogan
At a much larger scale.
Warring factions of transhumanisms trying to pull each other's batteries out.
vince horn
And trying to pull each other into each other's version of Utopia.
joe rogan
Yeah, right?
That's another issue, right?
What if there's a Mac version and a Windows version, and they're non-compatible, and everyone's trying to figure out which one is going to be the Betamax, and which one...
Betamax was better, but VHS survived, and you've got to pick the right team.
vince horn
That's right.
joe rogan
Yeah, there's different...
Yeah, because it's not like there's going to be only one company that comes up with a transhumanist solution, right?
emily horn
Right.
This is reminding me of the fluidity of perspectives as I've trained and practiced.
It's like the mind has the capacity to take on multiple perspectives and how important that actually is in the world today to be able to take different points of view and take multiple perspectives.
And not have the right way or the way.
So there's a lot of possibilities.
joe rogan
Yeah.
What you said also that's fascinating is this idea that we can't even really...
Imagine what the potentials are because the potentials will create new potentials that were before that unrecognizable.
We didn't see them coming.
Like, if you went back in time a few hundred years ago and tried to explain to them the internet, they'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about?
If you went back before the printing press and tried to explain the internet and trying to access Google on your phone with voice commands or Siri, you know?
emily horn
Siri.
joe rogan
Yeah, try to explain that to people that lived before printed type.
They'd be like, what are you even yapping about?
They would never be able to wrap their head around it, much like we will never be able to wrap our head around the possibilities once we transcend the biological limitations.
The hive mind, to me, seems to be the most likely.
vince horn
The hive mind?
joe rogan
Yeah, the idea that we're going to somehow or another experience each other on some very, very broad scale.
Some very large scale.
And I think we're kind of doing that with shit like Facebook and with Twitter and with interaction on the internet.
I think what we're doing is dipping our toe in the ocean of connectivity.
vince horn
Oh yeah, I like that phrase.
joe rogan
Yeah.
emily horn
That's really good.
joe rogan
Yeah, because I think that we're slowly but surely dissolving...
vince horn
Or devolving.
joe rogan
Maybe that too, biologically devolving, right?
But dissolving these limitations of communication.
We're slowly but surely expressing ourselves in ways and interacting in ways that didn't exist before.
And then when new things come along, like, are you aware of Oculus Rift?
vince horn
I've got the DevKit 2 waiting for me in North Carolina.
joe rogan
I can't wait.
Duncan has it.
My friend Duncan Trussell has it, and he just got back from experiencing porn in virtual reality, first-person porn.
And he goes, it is the craziest thing you've ever experienced in your life.
Like, you are this other person having sex with someone.
You could look down at your body.
You could look at your feet and your legs.
And you can experience, like, sexual intercourse with somebody else.
You don't feel it, obviously, but he's like, this is going to change the entire world we live in.
And the new version of it is insanely high definition.
vince horn
Right.
joe rogan
You know, he keeps like, you gotta come over to my house and try out the fucking new Rift, man!
It's mind-blowing!
He called me up the day he saw it, and he's like, this is bigger than the internet.
He goes, this is bigger than anything that's ever been invented by people.
vince horn
I've heard the same thing.
The thing I'm most excited about is creating contemplative training environments in the Rift.
What would it be like to completely, like you said, immerse yourself in a visual field with nothing outside of it and be able to...
In some sense, experience some of the same states that psychedelics bring on, but directly through a technological interface.
One of my friends called it technodelics, the sense that the technology could produce some of those states as well.
joe rogan
Well, that's what McKenna's belief was about DMT, is that he believed that if you could create a world that mimics exactly the psychedelic experience of dimethyltryptamine, that he believed that in that state, those same beings that you interface with when you take the psychedelic drugs would show up.
He had this, like, field of dreams type scenario.
If you build it, they'll come.
And that that would be the best case scenario for psychedelic intervention.
It wasn't getting a bunch of people to take drugs.
It's like, put this on.
vince horn
Virtual reality.
joe rogan
Yeah, that one day the state will, I mean, the virtual reality will achieve the type of possibilities to achieve something like that.
vince horn
Yeah, and then the question becomes, and I think McKenna said this, what worlds do we build?
What virtual realities do we build and what values do we build into them and program into them?
Because I don't think that issue is going to go away.
We still have to ask those questions and decide what we're building.
joe rogan
Well, again, that's the real mindfuck.
It's not even essentially that we're going to have a different biological body, but we might have a different reality that is indistinguishable from this reality that we can pick up and put on a scale.
The concept of virtual existence, of some sort of existence in a simulation, as it were.
Simulation is a weird word.
Because simulation implies that it's not real.
But if it has all the consequences and all the feeling and textures and all the interactions and interfaces that the regular life does as far as tactile, as far as heat, sensitivity, all the different aspects of our life, we could recreate those exactly.
What is that if it's not life?
If it is an experience and you're taking in every single aspect of that experience exactly the same way you would take in this life, what is it?
And if that's the case, how do we know we're not already in it?
How do we know that this isn't an indistinguishable artificial reality that we have created and we're just tapped into this sucker?
vince horn
I mean, that's my presumption.
joe rogan
That we're in an artificial reality?
vince horn
I mean, I presume this is a virtual reality simulation.
joe rogan
Why is that?
unidentified
Because...
vince horn
Because stuff's happening and I don't know what's happening.
joe rogan
What do you mean by that?
vince horn
I mean, I guess...
We were watching Nick Bostrom last night kind of lay out the argument for this, you know, the virtual reality simulation hypothesis.
And he was basically saying, you know, one possibility is we're in a virtual reality, an ancestral simulation.
And then the other possibility is that no civilizations get to the point technologically where they can produce this kind of technology.
They all vanish.
That's one possibility.
And then the third possibility was...
I'll see if I can remember it.
joe rogan
I don't understand that possibility.
vince horn
So basically saying this is a real universe because no civilizations get to...
So there could be no civilization which gets to the point where it develops that capacity, that virtual reality technology.
joe rogan
But how is that even an option?
No civilization does it.
It could say no civilization has...
vince horn
Yeah, no civilization has.
Because he's assuming that if someone does do it, this is getting kind of analytically geeky, but...
joe rogan
So is this whole damn show, right?
vince horn
Yeah, that's true.
But I think he's saying, like, if a hyper-intelligent species can create a virtual reality, they will.
And they'll create many of them.
And so, probability-wise, it's much more likely that we're in a simulation because of how many that could be created.
You could simulate an infinite number of universes through a hyper next generation computer.
So that was his argument for why we're probably in a simulation.
joe rogan
I would never say probably.
I would agree in the sense that it's quite possible that if it is possible to one day achieve the sort of Technological ability to create something that's indistinguishable from this reality.
If it is possible, and I assume that it's going to be possible, if you hear about things like this new Oculus Rift and compare it to the quill that used to have to dip into ink to write things down, that was the only way to distribute information.
Yeah, it's possible that one day we're going to achieve that.
But the other thing that you have to take into consideration is it's almost universally accepted that at least if this world is real, and if this life that we are living is not a simulation, it's universally accepted that this is the pinnacle of human innovation.
That we are at the cusp.
We're at the apex right now.
And that we are at the very...
Like, there's more information today, we have more knowledge, we have more of an understanding of our universe than any human beings before us ever have, ever.
So if that's the case, why wouldn't we assume that we just haven't reached it yet?
That seems to be far more likely than the possibility that no civilization ever achieves it.
That's why it's not there yet.
vince horn
That we just haven't reached it yet.
joe rogan
Yeah, it seems way more likely.
I don't understand why anybody would reach a contrary conclusion if all the evidence, whether it's cultural, like watching old television shows and comparing them to the sophistication of today's, whether it's musical, comparing old Beethoven music and old music from the 50s, like Buddy Holly type shit, and comparing it to what people are doing today, whether it's Technological, which is super easy and clear to grasp and understand.
There's no doubt whatsoever that we're at the apex.
As far as what we can observe, we have more ability, we're more competent, we're more able to alter our environment, communicate, etc.
Our technology is far more...
Far more complex than ever has been at any other time in human history that's been recorded that we can access.
So if that's the case, why wouldn't we just assume that we're on this path to that?
Why would we assume that no civilization has ever achieved it or can ever achieve it?
That doesn't make any sense.
vince horn
I don't assume that myself, but I think...
One thing I'd throw in the ring is, you know, that way of looking at our history is sort of like a linear model, right?
joe rogan
Right.
vince horn
We've got this story about, you know, the universe started this many billion years ago with the Big Bang, and then it sort of coalesced into whatever it coalesced into, and eventually, you know, life emerged a billion years ago and evolved to be what it is now.
And we're at this sort of linear progression of evolution unfolding.
But that story is only like 200 years old.
So why would we assume that that story is accurate?
Or that that way of looking at it is accurate?
I mean, it seems more likely that in 100 years we'll have a completely different conception of what the universe is.
And I wonder if part of that conception, part of what we'll break down...
And I'll tie this back into the contemplative tradition because it's something that breaks down in contemplative practice, is the sense that time exists in the way we think it exists.
It exists in a linear kind of motion.
Time, you know, in the Zen tradition with Dogen, is holochronic.
Like the holographic universe, you know, all these things are contained within themselves.
In this sort of, a lot of these Buddhist descriptions of consciousness, you know, all times exist simultaneously and can be accessed simultaneously.
You know, it can be accessed here or there.
And so in that sense, you know, the...
As the traditional texts say, the Buddhas of past, present, and future all exist right now, including ourselves.
And I don't know, that would be a very different way of experiencing time.
I experience it, you know, maybe on occasions experience it that way, but for the most part, that is not the way I tend to think this is a linear thing that's got to start and it'll have an end.
joe rogan
Well, the number one mindfuck of all time is infinity.
And being that not only is infinity...
I think, especially when your children...
Kids will say something like, I win times infinity.
What infinity...
The big mindfuck of infinity is that not only is...
The concept of infinity impossible to grasp, but the parameters of that concept are so strange that if infinity is real and if the universe is infinite, the way it's been described to me is that everything that has ever happened on this earth in the exact order has happened On other Earths an infinite number of times, including every single timeline.
So right now the 1950s are going on an infinite number of times in the exact same order the 1950s went on in America.
The 1950s on Earth, the 1950s are going on an infinite number of times in the universe, as are the 1960s, as are 1961, December 21st, as are December 22nd.
All those days are happening We're good to go.
Those things are all happening simultaneously throughout the universe.
So everything is happening all at once.
So if infinity is correct, like what their concept of time being constant and happening all at once, it is.
It is happening all at once.
It's just the container that holds it in is infinite.
It is a physical manifestation of this concept.
vince horn
And, okay, a question to riff off that that I'd ask is, and is consciousness something that's happening to this biological being in this one variation of the universe?
Or is consciousness something that moves through this infinite potentiality and experiences it?
joe rogan
That's the mindfuck.
If you wake up and you're in this other you somewhere else in the multiverse.
Your decisions and choices allow you to travel from one potential to the next, but wherever you left off, maybe you were a smoker or a drinker in the past, or you had some sort of bad habits, and you escaped those bad habits, but not every timeline.
Not in this timeline.
Maybe not yet.
Maybe you will after this conversation.
You know what I mean?
The idea being that we believe that we're limited to this very same physical space in the universe because this is where we are every day.
But what if we transfer our consciousness from this one to the next one?
And they're indistinguishable from each other physically to us, but not.
Their potential is very different and that, in a sense, you are dimension traveling.
And that's why we sleep.
emily horn
So we can travel.
joe rogan
That's why people say sleep on it.
Sleep on your problems, man.
Maybe they'll go away in the morning and you're just going to transfer to another stage of you somewhere else in the universe.
Or maybe this is more hippie bullshit.
unidentified
Damn it.
joe rogan
I hate it.
I hate it when I accuse myself, rightly so, of hippie bullshit.
But if infinity is correct, and not only do they believe that the universe is infinite, but they believe there are an infinite number of universes, which is the ultimate, ultimate mindfuck, the fractal nature of reality itself being that...
Every single galaxy, which contains hundreds of billions of stars, has a supermassive black hole in the center of it, which is exactly one half of one percent of the mass of the entire galaxy.
And if you pass through that, you will enter into another universe of hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with a black hole in the center that has a portal to another universe.
And then the whole thing just keeps going on.
So they're all, the whole, every universe is infinite and inside every universe is an infinite number of universes.
And that's how big it is.
That's why every timeline that has ever existed, every possibility is all happening simultaneously all throughout the whole thing.
vince horn
That's what those Tibetans thought as they sat in a cave and just explored their own minds.
joe rogan
They were tripping balls.
They were probably taking something.
Were they?
emily horn
They were tripping on concentration.
vince horn
They were tripping on endogenous drugs.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's the thing.
The endogenous drugs.
You're tripping even if you're not tripping.
You have to.
Everybody does.
There's no way around it.
You're tripping when you're sleeping.
I had some trippy dreams last night.
vince horn
Totally.
joe rogan
Yeah, those are trips.
vince horn
Absolutely.
emily horn
They are.
vince horn
This is a trip.
joe rogan
This is a trip.
Yes.
vince horn
I'm definitely tripping right now.
joe rogan
I think a lot of people listening are tripping too.
There's people right now on a subway going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Everything is happening everywhere all the time.
The concept of infinity, no, no, no.
This is a unique moment.
Not really.
emily horn
Well, if we drop the concept of infinity, then everything's happening right now.
joe rogan
Yes.
Well, for you, everything is happening right now.
But the concept of infinity is undeniable mathematically.
That's the problem.
It's that you can't just ignore...
All you have to do is go outside and look up.
You go outside and look up at night and you see stars and realize those are just an impossible distance.
And those are the neighbors.
Those are the ones that are really close.
And if you stood on one of those stars and looked out into the distance, you would see stars that were equally far away, that seemed equally ridiculous to try to reach.
And if you got to those, there's no end.
You're going to keep going and going and going.
So all the evidence of infinity, at least of the concept of great distance being outside of the realm of understanding, it's right in front of us every night.
vince horn
At the same time, I think there's a way of experiencing infinity that isn't about distance.
It's about consciousness.
And infinity being, you know, this conscious experience that we're having right now, right?
The room that we're seeing, the sounds that we're hearing, the body sensations that we're having.
All of these are also arising in our experience, right?
In our awareness.
And the idea of infinite distance is a thought that arises in my awareness.
And so in some sense, there's only this awareness.
There's only this experience that we've ever had.
And so in that sense, you know, the idea, the concept of infinity as a distance, as a great distance, drops away.
And there's just this.
There's just this one moment that's happening.
I think that's what you're pointing to.
And there's an infinite quality to it in terms of That the consciousness itself is infinitely present.
It's infinitely here.
I don't know how to describe it, actually.
joe rogan
That the consciousness is infinitely present throughout the whole thing.
vince horn
It's undeniably the fact that we are conscious.
You know, just like you said, the infinity is undeniable.
Consciousness is undeniable.
You know, this is happening.
joe rogan
But is it, though, because there's levels of consciousness, right?
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
There's people that are conscious that are just, they're apes.
They're just wandering through this life, drinking and walking in the walls.
Like, aren't they conscious as well?
And isn't that consciousness like a very limited consciousness?
And as consciousness expands, what's the ongoing theme?
When we're talking about meditation and meditative practices, enlightenment, achieving these psychedelic states through consciousness adjustment or consciousness manipulation, there's levels and layers to the whole thing.
vince horn
Yeah, there are levels and layers and there is this unified field of consciousness which no matter what is arising in it and how simple or complex it is, it's just what it is.
joe rogan
That's why it's really strange to me that the concept of simple biology As opposed to complex biological life that understands itself.
The simple biology of individual cells or then multi-celled organisms and then the concept of a being that's aware of itself and can communicate over vast distances like human beings.
Extrapolate that a thousand years plus whatever it is from now.
Do we have the ability to do the same thing with consciousness throughout the entire universe itself?
Like, is our ability to communicate over vast distances and to communicate with each other, is this just a beginning stage and this never-ending process?
Of dissolving boundaries, where the actual boundaries of space itself no longer exist.
And we can interface with intelligent life that has figured out the same sort of shit everywhere else in the world.
vince horn
The universe wide web or something.
joe rogan
Yeah, exactly.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, if the universe is infinite, and most scientists agree it is, or they believe it is, many do.
I mean, it's one of those things where you have the observable universe, right, which is like 14 billion light years or something like that.
And then what we talked about with the Big Bang, like it all came out of what?
Like McKenna had the best take on the Big Bang.
He's like, science is essentially saying, allow us this one miracle and we'll explain everything.
And that's really what it is.
The whole universe came from something smaller than the head of a pin.
How?
Let me get back to you on that.
But it did, and because of that, all the stuff's here.
Is that a miracle?
I wouldn't use that word.
Yes, it is.
That's a fucking miracle, man.
If a guy can come back from the dead after three days, that ain't shit.
The universe came out of a head of a pin.
You don't think that's more impressive than a dude coming back from the dead?
The guy coming back from the dead is clearly a miracle.
Can we agree on that?
Walking on water, clearly a miracle.
Water and a wine, the motherfucker made a miracle.
The universe itself is a miracle.
vince horn
All of our stories about it are miracles.
joe rogan
Yes.
And whether or not those are just fables the same way the ancient Hawaiians, the Polynesians talked about the gods stitching the stars together with thread.
You know, maybe that's what our concept of the Big Bang is just our antiquated notion or our rather primitive notion of something that's really beyond our capacity to understand.
vince horn
Yeah, that's the mindfuck to me.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's our myth.
It's our Isis.
That's our Zeus.
That's our Odin.
It's like the Big Bang.
And one day they'll laugh at us.
These fucking dummies thought that the universe was smaller than the head of a pin.
And that for whatever reason, man, it just blew up and became the universe.
vince horn
Yeah, one day soon, probably.
joe rogan
Yeah, maybe, right?
Maybe.
Or at least in terms of reference, it'll be similar to Galileo to us.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
You know, Galileo thinking that the universe was not centered around the earth and everybody going, what?
Are you fucking crazy?
unidentified
Absolutely.
joe rogan
And this is like a big point of contention.
And now it's universally agreed that Galileo was correct and everybody else is being silly.
There may very well come a day when someone proposes something far more radical than the Big Bang that proves to be true.
And everybody else is like, wait, wait, what are you saying?
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
Like, have you ever seen that there's an audio of, I think his name is Gates and...
vince horn
William Gates?
joe rogan
The guy who had the concept of assimilation theory that he presented to Neil deGrasse Tyson.
vince horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah.
vince horn
That was the president's scientific advisor, Obama's advisor, for a while.
joe rogan
Was he really?
vince horn
William Gates, yeah.
joe rogan
No kidding.
If it's the same guy.
It's the same guy that found the computer code in string theory.
vince horn
He's sort of like a Samuel L. Jackson lookalike?
unidentified
Yes.
vince horn
That's him.
joe rogan
That's him.
And the conversation that he has with Neil deGrasse Tyson, where he says they found self-correcting computer code in the heart of string theory.
vince horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
And then Neil deGrasse Tyson goes, wait, wait, wait.
Okay, okay, okay.
I want to hear this again.
Say this one more time.
You found self-correcting...
I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying.
Pull the video, because that's...
vince horn
We watched this for the first time last night.
joe rogan
Oh, really?
unidentified
This is one of my favorites.
joe rogan
That link got taken down?
unidentified
It was on Reddit.
joe rogan
Goddamn commies.
Who's doing that?
Why would you take that down?
Just self-correcting computer code...
Correcting...
Code string theory.
Gates.
Let's see.
Yeah, that's it.
Strange computer code discovered concealed.
If you just go to that, I found it.
Just do what I just did.
unidentified
I found it again.
joe rogan
Okay.
Strange computer code discovered concealed in super string equations.
This is a little bit of nonsense in the beginning.
For the first 30 seconds, it's like weird.
Here, play it.
unidentified
Images that are behind your head right now.
These are pictures of equations.
I've been, for the last 15 years, trying to answer the kinds of questions that my colleagues have been raising.
And what I've come to understand is that there are these incredible pictures That contain all the information of a set of equations that are related to string theory.
And it's even more bizarre than that because when you then try to understand these pictures you find out that buried in them are computer codes just like the type that you find in a browser when you go surf the web.
And so I'm left with the puzzle of trying to figure out whether I live in the matrix or not.
neil degrasse tyson
Wait, you're blowing my mind at this moment.
unidentified
So you're saying...
neil degrasse tyson
Are you saying your attempt to understand the fundamental operations of nature leads you to a set of equations that are indistinguishable from the equations that drive search engines and browsers on our computers?
unidentified
That is correct.
So...
Wait, wait.
I'm still...
Wait.
I have to just be silent for a minute here.
So you're saying as you dig deeper, you find...
neil degrasse tyson
Computer code, rich in the fabric of the cosmos.
unidentified
Into the equations that we want to use to describe the cosmos, yes.
Computer code.
Computer code, strings of bits of ones and zeros.
neil degrasse tyson
It's not just sort of resembles computer code, You're saying it is computer code.
unidentified
It's not even just is computer code.
It's a special kind of computer code that was invented by a scientist named Claude Shannon in the 1940s.
That's what we find very, very deeply inside the equations that occur in string theory and in general in systems that we say are supersymmetric.
Okay.
Time to go home, I think.
Where are we going to go?
So, are you saying we're all just...
neil degrasse tyson
there's some entity that programmed the universe and we're just expressions of their code?
unidentified
Well, I didn't say that.
Like the matrix?
That's what you said.
Some of those codes are showing on the screen behind you right now.
They don't look like codes, but these pictures, which we call adinkras, are graphical representations of sets of equations that are based on codes so this is in fact to answer your question more directly I have in my life come to a very strange place because I never expected that the movie The Matrix might be an accurate representation of the place in which I live Jim, may I give you an argument that we don't live in the matrix?
A very simple argument.
Give me one now, quick!
A very simple argument.
There's a property that the real world right down here has, that no mathematical equation has, that no solution of an equation has, that no abstract object has.
Here in the real world it is always some moment, which is one of a series of passing moments.
In a mathematical equation, it doesn't have a flow of time in it.
It just is.
And this means...
Wait, wait, let him finish.
I need him here and now.
This means, to me, that the ancient metaphysical fantasy that we quote, are just mathematics, cannot be true.
Because in a world that was just mathematics, There would be no moment of time.
Why isn't there math as a function of time?
I'm sorry.
These are differential equations.
But then you lay the solution out.
Lee, you're mistaking...
You keep using the word is, and I'm talking about the word describe.
But describe is fine.
No, no, but let me finish, please, since we started with my discussion.
The point is that I... You know, it's fun to talk about some deep metaphysical...
essence that sits behind physics but for some of us it's about trying to find the most accurate way to describe where we live and so my statement is that in the description of our universe that is a supersymmetrical universe which we were going to test in the LHC if you believe that description I can show you the presence of these codes that's my statement I'm fucked.
joe rogan
I can't.
I can't go on.
The show's over.
What do you say to that?
You listen to what these guys have just described and talked about.
I disagree with the one guy saying that because we live in this moment and there's like this linear pattern to things that it can't be a mathematical equation.
That's not true.
That doesn't make any sense.
That's like saying if there is a car and the car is driving on a road that has been created by people, if it's going from one distance, if it's traveling, that it can't possibly be an artificially created environment.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
It's like you're traveling through this thing.
Just because you're experiencing the now and it's progressive and you know the past and you're looking forward to the future and you're moving and you're in this moment, that doesn't mean it's not a mathematic representation.
emily horn
Well, what comes to mind is that a lot of times in our formulas or our mathematic equations, and I'm not a mathematician, the mind tendency is to lock down on the variables, but then it locks it down.
So it's constantly changing.
joe rogan
What do you mean by that?
emily horn
Meaning that there's a tendency of mine to go into concepts as if they were solid and as if they were fixed.
And any kind of time that we do that, we lock down the possibilities.
So if we can relax into whatever it's representing, then that representation can continue to be fluid.
And so therefore there's a lot of space and a lot of room to continue, and the present moment is not just one thing.
joe rogan
I just don't understand the argument that if I guess he's trying to say, in a sense, that because we experience individual moments, we have this moment, we're in this moment, and that it's progressive, that this wouldn't be the case if it was a mathematical equation.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
Maybe I'm just too dumb, but it seems to me that that leaves out the possibilities of yes, you could do that.
Yes, it could be a mathematical equation that you're experiencing, or it could be that this idea of this computer code that they're finding is just simply a lot like so many other codes that we found in things that indicate that nature has some sort of a pattern to it, like the Fibonacci sequence.
Like, you know, the idea that these codes that exist in nature, they don't exist because this is artificial, but they exist because nature essentially runs on mathematics.
vince horn
So, is nature artificial or is it...
joe rogan
I don't think anything is artificial.
vince horn
Or you could say everything is artificial.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Well, everything is natural.
Everything on Earth, including artificial chemicals, were produced from things that are naturally occurring on Earth.
And human beings are a natural creation of the Earth or of biological life itself.
And all the byproducts of human beings, including things that we consider to not be natural, are natural.
Just like a beehive is a natural creation of a bee.
Nuclear waste is the natural creation of the inquisitive human being.
They're not natural, but they are natural because everything is natural.
They don't exist outside of our manipulation, but we are a part of nature.
So essentially all of our creations are in fact natural.
vince horn
I make this argument so often to try to undercut the notion that using technology to develop your ability to contemplate the universe and consciousness, that that somehow is unnatural.
I use that all the time.
But I'm thinking you could say the same thing, like everything is artificial.
Everything is generated from something else.
The Big Bang came from somewhere else.
where the mathematical formulas and the starting conditions came from some non-physical place outside of this universe.
And so therefore they're artificial from this perspective.
But I think that's the same, saying the same thing is everything is natural.
Yeah.
Like everything is artificial and everything is natural.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Everything is natural, I think.
We have this idea of natural and artificial that we describe with our foods.
We describe it with the things that are healthy and non-healthy about what we've created in our culture.
But when you start using those same terms to describe human creation...
And then you start understanding the nature of human innovation and creativity in the first place.
Boy, I don't know if that's natural or not.
How could it be any less natural than an octopus changing its shape to hide or changing its skin tone to blend in with the environment?
Isn't that natural?
It's an artificial look that the octopus has created in order to camouflage itself from predators or prey.
vince horn
What do you think people are really pointing to when they say something's unnatural?
What do you think they're really getting at or really trying to say?
joe rogan
It's bad.
vince horn
It's bad?
joe rogan
Yeah.
emily horn
We've got to go back in time.
joe rogan
Go back to chopping wood and shit.
vince horn
And it's bad according to what set of values or what conception of what is good in the universe.
joe rogan
Right.
vince horn
I think we're constantly instantiating our utopias through how we live and what we do.
We're constantly...
Deluding ourselves into thinking our conception of the universe is the correct conception.
But like we can't help it.
Like I cannot help but say, you know, I think this is the most important thing.
Compassion, wisdom, you know, like I've got my own conception of what's most important.
joe rogan
But is there a most important?
I mean, is the word most important the problem or the definition of most important the problem?
Because what is most important to you is not most important to others.
It's a very personal idea of what's most important.
What's most important to starving people right now is getting them food and water.
What's most important to the president is figuring out what to do about Israel and Gaza.
What's most important is a very personal thing.
vince horn
Yeah, and yet there seem to be patterns, you know, like people have certain values and share those values with others, and there's a collective code that seems to be running as well.
joe rogan
Yeah, and again, it boils back to what is that collective code?
What's the purpose of it all?
To facilitate society, civilization, and to move forward with the progression of innovation.
Until we become robots.
Until we figure out a way.
emily horn
To get out of here.
joe rogan
I mean, the trend is obviously there, right?
The symbiotic connection that we have to, you know, you don't want to leave your phone behind.
You want to keep that sucker on you.
If you leave it behind, you feel like you left a part of you back there.
vince horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
Oh my god, I left my hand.
You know, I gotta go back and get my hand.
I mean, it's almost similar.
vince horn
Yeah.
My outer cortex.
joe rogan
Yeah.
There's something weird to that.
emily horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
There's something weird to our desire that this Marshall McLuhan's idea that we're the sex objects of the machine world, that what we're doing is we're giving birth like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly.
We're unaware of our actions really ultimately being a part of this transition from the monkey body into this new transcendent thing.
But then the big...
Question is what is that and what's the purpose of that and if we do become that does it just sit?
Does it say what's the point moving?
You know, I'm just gonna sit here What's the point in innovating?
There's no need.
What's the point in creating new ones to what do more of nothing?
unidentified
Fuck it.
joe rogan
It's it just sits there.
So we show up on some planet someday and And there's these super complex artificial beings that were created by biological beings, and then they just stopped, and they all just sat around waiting for the next stage of existence, and it never came.
vince horn
In Buddhist cosmology, actually, it's described that way.
joe rogan
Really?
vince horn
Yeah, actually, there's six realms in the Buddhist cosmology, and one of the realms is the god realm.
And in the god realm, the gods literally just abide in this formless awareness for eons and eons and eons.
But at some point, the story goes, something changes and they die.
They also are born and die.
Those formless realms aren't permanent.
And so, at some point, they come out of it and then they die and then they get reborn into some other realm.
joe rogan
Well, if you stop and think about the birth and death of stars and planets, if these artificial beings live on planets, They have a lifetime, a lifespan, whether they like it or not.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Because the very solar system they exist in is dependent upon that star burning a finite amount of fuel.
vince horn
Right.
joe rogan
Whether it's 500 billion years or whatever the hell your star's got in its tank, when that sucker's out, it's going to supernova, and that's a wrap, son.
There's no more artificial intelligence on that rock that's spinning around in space.
And the question is, does the artificial intelligence that exists recognize that and feel the need to protect itself from this finite existence by building a spaceship and traveling, physically traveling from dimension to dimension?
vince horn
Or traveling within the dimension of consciousness and looking for a resolution there.
joe rogan
But does it have consciousness once it becomes artificial?
Is consciousness purely something that the universe has created and we can't recreate?
vince horn
Oh, I doubt that.
joe rogan
Really?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
You think we'll be able to recreate consciousness?
vince horn
I think if we...
I mean, this is just a kind of guess, but I think if we create a suitable substrate for consciousness, consciousness will appear.
And that's based on my assumption that consciousness...
It appears where...
Where there's something happening.
There's some sense of it occurring to something.
joe rogan
Well, it depends on what we're calling consciousness.
vince horn
Yeah.
I use it in a simple way, like just basic awareness.
Like just kind of the awareness of like being in this room, of sight, of sound, of sensation.
joe rogan
So animals and even insects have consciousness in that sense.
vince horn
And Alfred White Northhead, you know, he sort of presumed that even atoms have a most fundamental sense of consciousness that he called prehension.
That's kind of like a pantheistic perspective, but I think everything is imbued at the most fundamental level with consciousness.
But that's probably because I've spent my whole life exploring consciousness.
joe rogan
When you say everything, do you mean like physical objects as well, like a desk?
Does this desk have consciousness?
unidentified
Yeah, like at the most basic level.
joe rogan
Some form of, but non-measurable, so completely just theoretical.
vince horn
Consciousness is, yeah, consciousness isn't, by definition, immeasurable.
You know, you can't measure consciousness because it's not a quantity.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Why would you assume that inanimate objects possess it then?
vince horn
It sort of just comes from the deepest states of meditation that I've experienced.
This kind of sense of knowing that everything is, at the most fundamental level, consciousness itself.
And so that there isn't something outside of consciousness.
You know, atoms couldn't exist outside of consciousness.
It's just a felt sense, I guess.
It's hard to describe.
I don't have a really solid argument for it.
emily horn
And even if something appears solid at a very microscopic level, we can see things moving around.
Like, even though this table feels solid, it's not completely solid.
joe rogan
Right, of course.
Every atom is mostly air.
emily horn
Right.
joe rogan
Or empty space, rather.
emily horn
Yeah, so at a sense, like, you know, I've had experiences, too, where the concentration becomes so strong that things just start to break down and everything seems to be dissolving and reconstructing and dissolving and reconstructing.
joe rogan
Right, but isn't this just the perceptions of your own mind?
Isn't this just that your mind has this ability to perceive its surroundings and its environment?
And in meditation, you're altering the parameters.
You're changing the influences.
You're changing the physical state, the flow of the neurotransmitters, and all these different things are changing how you view the environment itself.
But you're not really changing the environment at all.
emily horn
Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on how you look at it.
Because, no, I mean, I'm not changing it, and then, yes, I am changing it by doing those particular practices.
joe rogan
You're changing it in that you're changing your perceptions, that your perceptions change the way you interface with it.
emily horn
Yeah.
vince horn
I think this goes back to the paradox of, like...
emily horn
And it is very paradoxical.
vince horn
Yeah, like, the paradox of, you know, can we describe this from the outside objectively, and, like, that's the most true perspective, or do we describe it as the subjective conscious experience of it?
Which is more true?
And I keep going back to like you can't reduce one to the other or conflate one to the other entirely.
Otherwise, you basically are just sort of propping up a particular perspective as the ultimate truth.
I don't know.
I think there's something completely disenchanted about seeing everything as physical objects and this as a kind of hallucination to make us feel better so we can continue to propagate.
I think there's something fundamentally wrong about that on the level of being a conscious being.
And yet, I also see the tendency for people to conflate their own experiences with the external universe as being highly problematic, too.
joe rogan
That's a funny word, disenchanted.
That's a funny way of...
Because it is...
You know, it is kind of...
Your perception of it...
It's almost like this mystical view of it, this beautiful, airy-fairy view of it, it makes it more exciting.
And so to think of it in more stoic terms or more, I don't know what the word I would use, just more clearly defined terms, it's not as fun.
Does that make sense?
vince horn
It does.
It's also, I think, like Emily was saying, the moment we solidify reality, then we lose the background.
We lose the sense that We don't actually completely know.
That every story we've ever told as a species has ended up being wrong at some level.
It's not actually like the Big Bang.
At some point we're going to realize that story was the best story we could come up with to describe the evolution of the physical universe or the development of it or whatever.
But at some point, we're going to discover something that just blows our minds again.
And then we're going to have to come up with a new story that can make sense of that.
And we're going to get solidified about that.
We're going to think, oh, that's actually the way it really is.
And so I think there's something about certainty and really thinking we have it worked out that becomes problematic at some level.
joe rogan
That's kind of the beauty of existence, right?
Is that there's a lot of mystery to this thing.
unidentified
Yeah, exactly.
joe rogan
It's like half the fun.
emily horn
Exactly.
And the disenchantment, like, part of that comes from, like, I feel like people can get disconnected from their hearts.
And that can be airy-fairy, too.
But that is real to be up in the mind and the brain and then forget that there is the feelings and the tenderness and the vulnerability in a positive way.
Because there's actually a lot of power in the vulnerability.
So there's some sort of balance that I think comes into play from some of the Eastern traditions and then some of the Western traditions because I feel that balance too in the room as we're talking between, you know, opening more into the mystical part of things and then also, you know, needing the concepts, needing the rational mind, needing the science.
And where is that balance in our modern world?
I'm not sure.
joe rogan
Well, yeah, that's the real question, right?
Where's the balance in the modern world?
Because the modern world is essentially without balance.
That's the number one criticism of it, is that we're raping the earth and torturing our planet, robbing it of its resources and polluting the oceans and all that jazz.
There isn't a balance to it all.
And that the experience is just what it is for you.
You live this life and your perceptions and your ideas are essentially what flavor it for you.
And if you choose to be Mr. No-Nonsense, you still die.
You live, you die, and that's it.
unidentified
And you still have blind spots and limitations.
joe rogan
Yeah, most certainly.
And the concept of consciousness in this way is more empowering or at least gives you a better feeling about the life that you're living and may enhance that experience, may make that experience a more pleasurable ride.
emily horn
And it may impact others around you because of mirror neurons and everything else.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Well, definitely, you know, when I'm around people that are super positive, I feel better.
That's undeniable.
I don't understand it, but I do, you know, inherently.
There's, like, a part of you that grasps it.
But it's undeniable.
And when you're around pessimistic people, it's a huge drag.
That's a huge drag to be around super negative people.
Like, I remember I had this really negative girlfriend once when I broke up with her.
I remember dropping her off and driving away going...
unidentified
Oh, my God, I'm free!
joe rogan
If there was a side of things that was negative, she would find it and just start pecking at it.
But what about that?
Oh, it was brutal.
It was brutal.
And if you could find the opposite of that...
Find someone who's always got a good take.
Like, hey, this is what it is.
But from here, we can learn to never do that again.
So this is an awesome blessing in that we've learned a lesson from this.
And we're going to move forward.
And we still have love and community and friendship.
And there's a lot of people that look at things that way.
And there's so much more fun to be around.
It just makes the experience of life itself.
More exciting.
And in that sense, what people are doing with Buddhism or TM or spending a lot of time in isolation tanks, it's sort of a workaround for biology.
Sort of a framework for developing your consciousness as you manage your biology.
Does that make sense?
vince horn
Yeah, I think that's a valid way of talking about it.
joe rogan
We might have run out of mindfucks in this podcast.
I think we hit a wall when we were talking about self-correcting computer code.
Like James Gates and Neil Tyson might have thrown us into a wall.
How did you guys get involved in all this stuff?
What made you gravitate towards this as a young person?
Is it just something you discovered early on and sort of slowly but surely it became a massive part of your life?
vince horn
I think for both of us, that's probably true.
I won't speak for Emily, but for me, I grew up with hippie parents, you know, new agey parents.
And so the notion of meditation and consciousness was kind of part of the dialectic growing up.
joe rogan
Where'd you grow up?
vince horn
I grew up in Asheville, North Carolina.
joe rogan
Ah, I love that place.
That's where Duncan's from.
vince horn
Yeah, that's where we live now.
joe rogan
You guys live there?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
The place is so awesome.
I don't want to tell people about it so awesome.
When I was there, I was walking down the street, I was like, this is like, it doesn't exist in anywhere else.
vince horn
The word's getting out, believe me.
emily horn
It is getting out.
joe rogan
Damn it!
emily horn
And now it's really out.
joe rogan
Yeah, now it's really out.
But that place is amazing.
That's an amazing, amazing town.
vince horn
It's quite interesting, yeah.
emily horn
Yeah, we love it.
joe rogan
It's so unusual.
Like, I was there with a buddy, well, Duncan and another buddy of mine, we were walking on the street and going to this restaurant, and then we went to this bar.
I was like, where else is there a place like this?
It's like this small town of really like-minded folks, very open-minded.
Very progressive, but very small.
What's the population there?
vince horn
100k, I think.
joe rogan
Is it?
So it's very boulder-sized.
unidentified
That's right.
joe rogan
Which is another similar town like that.
vince horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's very...
But you guys are like tucked up in the mountains.
vince horn
Oh, we're in a holler.
emily horn
We're in a holler.
We like it.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's amazing.
How'd you get there?
vince horn
I grew up just outside of there, a little town called Mars Hill.
emily horn
And I grew up two hours away in Wilkesboro, a small town.
joe rogan
And you gravitated towards Asheville how?
vince horn
Well, we actually lived in Boulder for about a decade.
joe rogan
Really?
vince horn
Yeah.
She was working at Naropa University.
I went to school there.
joe rogan
Oh, that's that Freaky Hippie University, right?
vince horn
Buddhist-inspired.
We call it the Buddhist-inspired Harvard.
joe rogan
They have a class in Zen flower arrangement.
vince horn
Ikebana.
emily horn
Ikebana, yeah.
vince horn
I didn't take that one.
joe rogan
This is hilarious.
You get an accredited class in Zen flower arrangement.
vince horn
The only place that I know of.
joe rogan
Yeah.
vince horn
Yeah.
Which is also a kind of similar, it's got a similar kind of vibe.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Boulder most certainly does.
And another place that's tucked in the mountains.
It's like, there's something about mountains that are so humbling.
emily horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
Like, you just look at, like, you can't be that important.
Are you seeing what I'm seeing?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Your daily life and troubles, they are balanced in perspective by the images that you're seeing of the most spectacular versions of art that nature's created.
That's what the mountains are to me.
Snow covered, tree covered, whatever they are.
Seeing a lake at the bottom of a canyon and just like...
Nature's stunning works of art, and just the sheer, vast magnitude of them, like the Rockies, forces people into this sort of humility.
Sort of like beach towns.
Why is everybody so chill by the beach?
Well, look at that fucking ocean, man.
How are you taking yourself so seriously?
Look at that thing.
vince horn
It's fast.
joe rogan
You can't see the end and it's all water.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And it's moving up and back and at any point in time it could just rise up in a thousand mile high swell and take out the entire planet.
emily horn
Yeah.
vince horn
That's right.
joe rogan
Yeah.
There's something about nature that's super important.
It's like people that live in a place where they don't get a chance to see it.
And New York City, in a sense, is humbling in its own way because, as we said, everything is natural.
Human beings creating cities are not much different than a beehive.
It's just we're way better at making shit than bees are, so we make skyscrapers.
But when you're in Manhattan, like, last time I was there, I was staying at this hotel and we were pretty high up.
And, you know, you open up your window and you look out the window like, whoa, this is crazy!
This is so futuristic and bizarre.
We're in the middle of it.
All the buildings are around us.
We're seeing all these people moving around inside of their windows.
Some of them, I'm sure, with binoculars and telescopes and shit, peering out at all the different stories that are playing out in the various little cubicles and boxes around them.
vince horn
Absolutely.
joe rogan
Yeah.
But I think that, at least to me, the most peaceful version of that kind of imagery is the natural version.
The real natural version as far as non-man created, I should say.
The mountains.
And there's something about it.
Especially a place like Asheville or a place like Boulder.
It's just defined by its environment.
Yeah.
So, the Buddhist geeks thing, one of the things that I thought that was interesting that you said, that I find too, is that you start doing it and people start getting connected to it and then you feel like you're kind of stuck in it.
Like, in that, like, boy, I have a responsibility now.
vince horn
Yes.
joe rogan
People are enjoying this.
vince horn
Yes.
Getting, maybe hopefully, getting some value from it.
joe rogan
Yeah, well, at the very least, being entertained on a bus, you know, or on a plane, or what have you, or you're stuck in a commute.
You know, at the very least, it's that.
vince horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
How often do you guys do it?
vince horn
We do a podcast once a week.
So we do, like, an interview like this, or a conversation like this, probably once a week.
joe rogan
Now, when you do those, do you prepare for them?
Like, do you have, like, a theme, or do you have, like, questions that you lay out beforehand?
Yeah.
vince horn
Usually, yeah.
Usually it's with a person or group that we're exploring a particular topic.
We've explored a lot around the interface of technology and Buddhist practice, various intersection points of how Buddhism is sort of interfacing with psychology and science and technology and various aspects of culture.
So we'll usually kind of go into one of those intersection points and explore it with someone who's really been working at that interface and so who is, you know, in some ways the most informed in terms of their ignorance about what's going on at that interface and just kind of explore it and see what happens.
joe rogan
Can you give me an example of like one of the recent episodes where you did that?
vince horn
Yeah, sure.
So recently, I talked to a neuroscientist named David Vago, who's at Harvard, and he's a contemplative neuroscientist.
And Jake Davis, who's a Buddhist cognitive philosopher.
And we sort of explored some of the recent work around finding and discovering a neuroscience of enlightenment.
And they've been sort of working with the question, is there a neuroscience of enlightenment?
Can we see what enlightenment, in quotes, looks like in the brain?
And is that even possible philosophically?
Like, is enlightenment one thing or is it many things?
And so we really just went through and explored some of their ideas around enlightenment.
What is it?
What conceptions are they using?
What have they found in their research?
Because David's been working a lot with folks like Shinzen Young, who has been meditating for 40 years and who has a really kind of Complex system of meditation and mindfulness practice, and it's something that he designed to be able to be scientifically studied.
So they've been sort of putting advanced meditators in various fMRI machines and sort of seeing what happens when they do various kinds of tasks, seeing what happens when they have these kind of peak moments, you know, what actually is occurring in the nervous system, seeing if they can come up with a model to describe that neuroscientifically.
joe rogan
That's fascinating.
The fMRI is really interesting stuff.
vince horn
Oh yeah.
Have you ever been in one?
It's so weird.
joe rogan
No, no.
vince horn
It's like a shamanic drum beating through your head.
joe rogan
Really?
vince horn
It's really bizarre.
And when we got in there for one of these meditation studies afterwards, I was like, are they taking into account the fact that the fMRI machine itself is like a completely altered state experience?
emily horn
It's just magnets, right?
vince horn
It's just a huge magnet you're in.
joe rogan
I've been in an MRI before, which is similar.
You hear that...
unidentified
This one had like...
vince horn
The one we went to had what sounded like drum beats and all kinds of weird stuff.
Drum beats?
joe rogan
Wow.
vince horn
Yeah.
I don't know if it was like that for you.
emily horn
No, that's what it sounded like.
vince horn
Yeah.
It was weird.
joe rogan
Yeah, I talked to a neuroscientist and they were explaining that there's some issues with fMRIs where they're trying to use them for crime investigation.
And they're being used by people who don't understand the limitations of the technology.
So someone was accused of a crime in India, accused of murder, and convicted by an fMRI result because the fMRI showed functional knowledge of the crime scene.
vince horn
Ooh.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Ooh, exactly.
And she was very concerned about this because her perceptions of it were you could, by reviewing the case itself and by reviewing the information, you could give someone functional knowledge of a crime scene without them actually having been there while the crime scene was going on.
So if you could read that there's functional knowledge of a crime scene, it doesn't mean that the person has actually been there while the crime was being played out.
I mean, there's people that have functional knowledge of all sorts of places, like Mount Rushmore.
If you play that in some folks' head that have deeply studied history and been paying a lot of attention, you might be able to show some sort of a functional knowledge of the area itself.
Especially if they have a vested interest in studying this, like they're being accused of a murder, you would think there would be a lot of intensity and emotional connection to that.
But these concepts, like all these different things, when it comes to technology and the understanding of the human brain, they're evolving right now in front of us so rapidly.
vince horn
Yeah, it's true.
I mean, just recently in the contemplative neuroscience field, they discovered that when you're, you know, not doing anything that is like your baseline state, that you are in fact doing something.
And they just sort of, that was one of the big insights that came out of a contemplative neuroscience was that the default mode network of the brain is actually the selfing network.
It's the network that is constantly constructing the sense of identity and referencing oneself, even when you're not doing anything.
So that was, you know, the assumption prior to that was just like, when you're not doing anything, nothing's happening.
But no, actually, a lot of stuff's happening.
It's like your self-program is running, basically.
joe rogan
Yeah, like what?
Well, we don't understand what the fuck is that self-program.
That's the problem.
How much of that is just keeping the heart beating?
How much of that is maintaining a normal state without freaking out and ripping your clothes off and running into traffic?
And what causes you to freak out and rip your clothes off and run into traffic?
Yeah.
Do you find that having these shows and doing all these podcasts has given you like a window that you would have normally not had before?
vince horn
Oh, totally.
Totally.
I can't separate now out the experience of talking to all these people and exploring some of the topics that we explore from my experience now of How I understand the world.
It's just so intertwined.
I'm sure you can, you know, kind of relate to that.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's why I wanted to ask you because it becomes like a part of your life is not just about having these conversations but about broadcasting these conversations and exploring them not just through your own curiosity but through Trying to either illuminate or figure out a way to express these ideas across where you think they're going to be accepted or understood the best.
Understood is probably the best way to describe it.
The way it's going to interface with the most amount of people.
vince horn
Yeah.
I mean, sometimes I think, you know, it's one of the most grandiose things to do is to start a podcast or to start, you know, to be a media, you know, person.
unidentified
And I sometimes wonder about myself as a result.
emily horn
He started the podcast seven years ago, so I've kind of been on the periphery of it and just watching it from the outside perspective, too.
It's fairly interesting to see how his podcast and the stuff that he talks about and his own development, I don't know if you can relate to it, has really come across in each episode.
And now we have an archive of seven years of development of his own understanding and then how everything just kind of converges.
Now we're really exploring the convergence.
joe rogan
Well, the beautiful thing about a podcast is that you don't have someone telling you what the subject of today is going to be.
You don't have someone telling you, this is what you should be interested in.
You find these unique individual visions because of podcasts.
And some of them are ridiculously stupid and some of them are awesome.
And what's ridiculously stupid to me is awesome to someone else.
And that's kind of the beauty of podcasting.
And it goes along with what we're talking about, I think, when it comes to Technology and social media is like the the interfacing with ideas the ability to exchange information It's all sort of radically changing right in front of us and you know podcasting is just a part of that absolutely How do you feel like you're going to take this thing into the future?
Do you have any plans for it?
Are you trying to expand it?
You're nodding.
vince horn
Virtual reality's next, I think.
joe rogan
Like Oculus Rift-style podcasting?
vince horn
Well, I mean, part of what...
Well, that could happen.
We'll see if that's popular, but no.
joe rogan
I'm going to tease you.
vince horn
No, I think for us, we're doing Buddhist Geeks as a media project, but we're also meditation teachers, and we work a lot with other folks, and we've trained with various Buddhist teachers.
So for us, we're wanting to make a space both for these conversations, but also for people to practice together in virtual space so that's a lot of our focus lately is on how to reinvent the Buddhist practice tradition for the 21st century and a big part of that that we're working on now is is doing retreats online you know periods of intensive immersive practice that happen in the context of your life and also you know we're building what we're calling the Buddhist Geeks Dojo which is
going to be kind of we're describing it as an early version of the matrix for training your mind The Buddhist Geeks Dojo.
The Buddhist Geeks Dojo.
joe rogan
And what does that entail?
What's going to be in there?
vince horn
It'll be at least a place for people to meditate together, to talk about what's happening in their practice, which basically is their life, and to find a community of folks who are kind of on a similar journey of cultivating certain kinds of states of mind and certain understandings.
joe rogan
Why Buddhism, though?
Why call it something?
You're talking about rebelling against Buddhism, right?
vince horn
Yeah, well, we've rebelled.
emily horn
We've thought about this a lot.
vince horn
And we've rebelled against our own rebellion.
That's the phase we're currently in.
emily horn
Yeah.
I mean, it's like we don't call it Buddhism.
We'll call it something else.
And then there's a framework around that.
So it's like I can't get outside of the framework no matter how hard or a framework no matter how hard I try.
And my training has been with some really awesome people in the Buddhist tradition.
And I'm not going to be able to just let that, you know, it's always going to impact me and influence me.
vince horn
And there's something about the flavor of that tradition and what it reveals.
joe rogan
Hippies.
vince horn
And the hippies.
emily horn
And it's changing.
It's changing?
I mean, yeah.
joe rogan
In what way?
You guys are changing it a little bit because of technology and you're interfacing with technology?
vince horn
I mean, yeah.
I mean, we're just a small part of it.
joe rogan
How else is it changing?
vince horn
I mean...
emily horn
Science is coming in, really influencing it.
The mindfulness movement is very much influencing it.
vince horn
You could call mindfulness a form of secular Buddhism.
I mean, certainly the guy that's had the most impact on the mindfulness movement, Jon Kabat-Zinn, spent a number of decades studying Buddhism in India and Asia.
joe rogan
So, I mean, those things are very big shifts in terms of how it's being practiced and the context that it's being held in and Well, that's funny that you said the secular, because most people would consider Buddhism to be some sort of a, or maybe one of the only secular religions.
vince horn
And it's true in some cases, and in other cases, it's like a lot of other religions.
There's a lot of...
joe rogan
What's the creepiest forms of Buddhism?
There must be.
Throw them under the bus.
vince horn
Creepiest forms?
joe rogan
It'll feel good.
What's the most dogmatic, the most ideology-filled...
vince horn
It must be, right?
joe rogan
Bikram yoga?
vince horn
No.
I mean, there are lots of forms that are very rigid in terms of how they're taught and what to believe when you do them.
I mean, I think that's hard to escape in a certain way because when people find something that is really powerful and works, they get really fixated on it.
joe rogan
Right, like wearing orange robes.
vince horn
Yeah, like wearing orange robes, although that's not really that popular anymore, at least in its current form in the West.
Monasticism is definitely not taking off.
So that's one way it's changing also.
It's moved away from monasticism and toward this more kind of lay-centered life.
joe rogan
Being integrated with everyone else.
vince horn
Being integrated in your life, you know how it is.
And I think that's true of most religions that are doing well.
It's like they've moved away from the transcendent and toward the imminent.
They're reconceiving divinity as something that exists in your life as it is.
It's not something that's beyond your life in some way that something's wrong with your life or your body, that this is a sinful, terrible vessel that is completely limited.
I mean, and it is in one sense, but in another sense, that's an intermediary insight from my experience.
joe rogan
What are the confining aspects of calling it Buddhism, though?
What are the pitfalls of that, besides hippies?
You're definitely going to get some problematic hippies.
Not that I love hippies.
Don't get me wrong.
vince horn
Yeah, same here.
joe rogan
But hippies come in many shades.
There's legit hippies, and then there's really annoying hippies that just sort of...
They use the hippie framework to just be annoying.
unidentified
Mm-hmm.
vince horn
Sure.
I mean, I'll say one confining thing is that Buddhism is a religion.
I mean, at least in terms of how we understand religion.
joe rogan
Is it tax free?
vince horn
Is it tax free?
joe rogan
Yeah, do you have tax-free exemption the same way that other religions do?
vince horn
We personally don't, but you could do that.
joe rogan
You'll get fucking chased down.
Don't do it.
It gets really hairy when you don't want to pay taxes.
They go, oh really?
Time to take a little closer look at the Buddhist geek organization.
vince horn
Yeah, see what you're doing on Saturday nights there.
joe rogan
Infiltrate.
emily horn
Yeah, I think with anything like Buddhism, I mean, you inherit.
But choosing that framework, we inherit it.
And so there's a lot about religions and spirituality in general that I don't personally like.
joe rogan
Like what?
emily horn
Yeah.
I think that there's a tendency to project—I mean, you brought in the word divinity, so I'll use that—to project our divinity onto the teachers or onto some sort of system.
And it can be disempowering for a lot of people.
People can get trapped in beliefs that have been carried forward for years and centuries that isn't forwarding anymore.
And so that sense, like, by choosing to go under Buddhism, we're also choosing to, you know, work on how we can evolve how we think about it.
And one thing that I really like is the practices themselves, the mind training aspect of it.
That's what's been really beneficial to me.
And that's one of the reasons why I've chosen to continue because of its impact.
joe rogan
The mind-training aspects of it.
What do you think is the tangible benefits of this mind-training aspect of it that you've personally experienced?
emily horn
Personally, I can say personally, I feel much, much more open, much more generous, compassionate.
There's a lot more freedom.
I can get stuck on the smaller sense of self-meaning.
I have these thoughts of unworthiness or self-contraction or Hatred or any of those, you know, biological kind of urges.
And at the same time, they're so transient and they're so not who I am.
And I see that very, very clearly that it kind of diminishes in just a second on the good days.
Sometimes it's more intense and I've learned to really work with that and learn how to see clearly what's happening so that I have the freedom to Really choose how to live my life in a much more full way.
joe rogan
So it really is like a workaround for a lot of the biological pitfalls.
vince horn
I think so.
I think it's a way of working with the situation as it is and making the most of it.
joe rogan
If someone came along with another name, though, like Buddhist, like the word Buddhist, if someone came along with another name for a similar practice, do you think that it would be accepted?
emily horn
I think they have.
I think the Buddhist tradition, especially in the West, has been modified, like mindfulness-based stress reduction.
I mean, some of these different techniques are taken from the ancient techniques.
There's something about grooves and consciousness and patterns like we were talking about earlier.
So by going under Buddhism, we're kind of riding in those grooves, and they're not all bad.
vince horn
Yeah, no, there's something, I don't know, my own experience, and it's a little embarrassing in a secular context to talk about this, because...
It's weird to say, you know, for whatever reason, I just fell in love with the forms and the ritual and just the feel of it, the aesthetic of Buddhism.
For some reason, I just immediately felt a sense of being at home when I went to the first meditation retreat.
I was there practicing and I was like, oh wow.
And I felt this deep sense of connection with that particular form.
And for whatever reason, it just works for me.
It's unlocked a lot very rapidly that I don't know that would have been otherwise possible if I was trying to do some sort of practice that I didn't really connect with that much.
Something about just the love of the form and the aesthetic itself that I can't really explain except that I've always liked Asian stuff.
emily horn
And the inclining of the mind towards awakenings or awakening, you know, that framework in itself, it's an interesting inclination.
So, you know, just like we had the Holy Grail, we mentioned that earlier, the inclination towards some kind of inquiry into, okay, and the question presented itself earlier, like, who are we?
Who is this?
And I've found that the techniques and the forms have been really revealing in that way.
joe rogan
The deification of the teacher is a real issue though, right?
That really does become an issue with any time any person is the distributor of knowledge or information.
They take this position.
vince horn
Yes.
joe rogan
Elevated.
emily horn
It's challenging.
vince horn
And I think the best teachers, you know, we're learning as we become hopefully a little better as teachers is that the best teachers use that situation to help people kind of gain a confidence in their own experience and to be able to No freedom for themselves, you know, through their own practices of paying attention and being with things.
And in that sense, the best teachers are the ones that make themselves irrelevant.
joe rogan
The best teachers.
vince horn
The best teachers make themselves completely irrelevant, I think.
emily horn
The process can be empowering in itself.
vince horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
Everyone's so calm.
Did Buddhists ever get into death metal or driving too fast or racing cars?
emily horn
I get into driving too fast.
Do you?
vince horn
There's a whole movement in the west of the Dharma Punks.
joe rogan
Dharma Punks?
vince horn
The Dharma Punks, who are based here in LA. They were basically a group of folks.
emily horn
They're my friends.
vince horn
Yeah, they're our friends.
They have major house parties with huge music bands.
joe rogan
Do they do drugs?
emily horn
That movement?
Not really.
vince horn
Well, I think a lot of them had done a lot of drugs, and so part of the movement is actually about being able to be okay without the drugs.
And I think that's part of the reason a lot of people are attracted to that movement.
joe rogan
Boring!
What about drinking?
vince horn
We drink.
joe rogan
Yeah?
emily horn
I have a glass of wine.
joe rogan
But a little bit, or do you get hammered?
emily horn
I don't really.
I don't care.
joe rogan
So if someone's at the bar and they pass you a shot...
emily horn
I just don't like it.
joe rogan
You don't like the feeling?
emily horn
Yeah, it doesn't feel good.
I feel like crap afterwards.
joe rogan
Definitely afterwards.
It's not the afterwards part.
emily horn
Like, how do you feel before?
How do you feel during?
And how do you feel afterwards?
Like, if I take the average of that, I don't feel very good.
So I don't tend to...
I personally don't tend to...
joe rogan
Bukowski used to get upset at stoners.
Duncan and I were talking about this last night because they didn't have to pay for the experience.
They didn't have the hangover.
Bukowski felt like you earned your drunk with the hangover.
He loved that.
vince horn
I mean, there's a hangover for being stoned.
It's just a little more subtle.
joe rogan
Really?
You feel like that?
vince horn
Yeah, sure.
joe rogan
What do you feel like the hangover for being stoned is?
I don't feel it at all.
vince horn
It's a quality of kind of a little bit of sludginess of the mind and of an increase in self-referencing talk for me, of more subtle fear and anxiety and self-preoccupation.
That's what I've noticed.
joe rogan
Well, that's fascinating.
In what way?
vince horn
In the sense that I described, like, you know, after I've smoked marijuana, like, during it's, you know, it's an insightful opening experience, but after there's a sense of kind of being groggy and sludgy and, like, everything is, like, less clear and less open than before.
And so there's a quality of kind of, like, contraction that comes after the expansion.
So that's what I would describe.
But it's like a mental contraction.
emily horn
It's not like the headaches and the...
vince horn
No, it's not as physical as alcohol.
emily horn
Yeah, it's not as physical.
joe rogan
Do you guys get in that North Carolina weed?
That's what's going on.
You gotta get some California weed.
vince horn
Well, you remember we lived in Boulder, so...
joe rogan
Indicus and sativas, right?
unidentified
You remember, we lived in Boulder, so we've tried all varieties.
joe rogan
Yeah, I'm sure.
Maybe it's a physical thing, though.
I don't experience that.
vince horn
Yeah, I mean, maybe it's the mental training that we've done and being a little more sensitive to that.
I don't know.
joe rogan
I don't know, but I don't get sludgy afterwards.
There's no sludginess.
vince horn
Yeah, it could be personal differences.
joe rogan
But that's also indica, which is a wide margin, by a wide margin, the majority of what most people are getting.
It's easier to grow, it's more common, and it's what a lot of people are looking for.
It's got more of that narcotic effect, whereas the sativas have more of an uplifting, different sort of...
And then there's also the eating of it, which is much more introspective.
vince horn
That's right.
joe rogan
Much more psychedelic.
vince horn
That's right.
Yeah.
I mean, so personally, I don't have anything against mind-altering substances.
I think meditation is a mind-altering substance.
I'm more just curious about, like, how do we use those substances?
Are we trying to get away from our experience?
Are we trying to have insights?
Because the problem with so many substances is you get into a pattern of really trying to cope with the difficulty of experience and then getting addicted to that state as a way of dealing with And I think that's where the problem comes in from a kind of mind training and contemplative perspective.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's a good way to describe it because that is what sort of happens, right?
That's why people get drunk.
That's why people do pills.
vince horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's like this existence is so confusing in itself that you just want to escape and then you escape and that escape becomes a trap.
unidentified
Yeah.
emily horn
And then you have to escape again.
You have to keep escaping.
And then if you stop, then you got to deal with all this shit that comes up.
It doesn't feel good.
joe rogan
Yeah, and then you got to go to rehab and try to wean your body off the escape.
vince horn
And if you're a Buddhist teacher, you've got to be concerned about how everyone perceives you because you're not perfect.
joe rogan
Because you're all pilled up.
vince horn
That's right.
joe rogan
You can't have a pilled up Buddhist teacher.
Is there any Buddhist teachers that are all fucked up on Adderall?
vince horn
Oh, there are as many Buddhist teachers doing as many weird things as there are any other humans, I'm pretty sure.
joe rogan
But wouldn't you hope that at least overall there would be more improvement in their overall character or ability to cope with this existence?
Yeah.
emily horn
I think there is.
Overall, I think people are inclined towards openness.
And then there's a balance between the multiple levels of development.
I don't know.
Meaning that, you know, just because we develop in spiritual context, then you also have, you know, your social context.
And so we have to continue to develop evenly, you know, across the spectrum.
vince horn
I think that's one of the trickiest paradoxes.
Like, you can become really good at being in this free, liberated, open, spacious mind.
Some people are incredibly good at it, and you're just with them, and you have a hit of that, you know.
But, like, their sex life is completely messed up.
You know, and they, like, abuse small dogs and children.
joe rogan
Really?
vince horn
I mean, I'm exaggerating a little, but not that much.
I mean, there are people who have had profound, profound realizations of the interconnection of all things, and they are profoundly dysfunctional on other levels.
And I've met many of those folks and have been those folks at times.
joe rogan
You have been those folks.
vince horn
Oh yeah, I've been dysfunctional and messed up and doing stupid stuff.
joe rogan
While you're practicing Buddhism?
vince horn
Sure.
joe rogan
What was the influence that caused you to be dysfunctional and fucked up while you're practicing?
vince horn
Usually the insights that have come from Buddhism I think have fled in that direction.
joe rogan
So the insights that have...
vince horn
They've destabilized me.
joe rogan
Really?
vince horn
Sure.
joe rogan
Sort of like a psychedelic experience can make someone go crazy permanently or temporarily.
vince horn
Yeah, I think I've gone through periods...
I'd say it's been less the Buddhist meditation as much as it's been healing just parts of my past, being a human and having been through difficult times.
I think more of it's probably been psychological...
And one of the common things that happens in a spiritual context is that people use their spiritual practice to bypass those human psychological issues.
It's called spiritual bypassing.
So for me, I think part of what happened is I bypassed for a long time and went really deep in a particular way and then had to come back around and deal with my human experience on a level that I hadn't wanted to before.
And then it was really painful.
joe rogan
So it's almost like you have these sort of confining aspects of your personality that because of your perceptions those confining aspects are probably good and then Buddhism comes along and blows down those boundaries and you're like, I'm not ready for this yet!
And then you freak out for a little bit and then you come back around.
emily horn
Yeah, and then the integration part, I think, is kind of what you're talking about, too, is going deep in the contemplative space, and then if we're inclining our minds towards, you know, seeing the reality of, like, what's really happening here, like, how are we constructing this reality?
And that starts to, you know, peel back, you know, there are moments where it's like so much, there's a lot of freedom, and then at the same time, it's like, oh, crap, like, I gotta figure out how to integrate this in my life.
And maybe that, those insights of the vastness and the spaciousness and that, you know, we're not just our bodies and we're not just our limited views of who we are.
You know, those insights have to be integrated into the way that we live our life.
And that's the challenging part.
That's when, you know, the rubber meets the road.
And that, you know, takes psychological work.
It takes body work.
It takes really...
It's humbling.
It's very humbling.
Because then putting the teacher on the pedestal, going back to that, it's like, oh, okay, we're actually all in this together.
And, you know, maybe, you know, I've traveled these inter-worlds and can help other people navigate them.
And at the same time, you know, we have to come back as a collective.
And, like, you know, we've got to wash the dishes.
He's got to take out the trash.
And then, you know, if you have kids, you've got to raise the kids.
And And how do you do that without killing each other?
vince horn
One of our teachers, Jack Kornfield, says often you have to remember your Buddha nature and your zip code both.
And the zip code part, I think, can be hard if you've been focusing mostly on recognizing your so-called Buddha nature is the way that your mind inherently is.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's similarly discussed in the psychedelic community.
What's the point in having these experiences if you can't bring back the revelations and enhance your actual here and now life?
vince horn
Sure.
I think it's important.
emily horn
It's really important.
And then when it is integrated, I definitely want to flesh this out just a little bit more so people can get the sense of that, yes, there are difficulties.
And there are beautiful, vast, spacious moments.
And then at the same time, and even if you don't have any beautiful, vast, spacious moments, even this moment in itself as you're sitting here can be beautiful.
We've all touched into that, you know?
So it's like, there's a sense that when, it's a wearing out, that's how I would describe it.
It's a wearing out process of a smaller sense of who we are.
And That integration process is not always easy, and yet, as it happens overall and over the long run, we are very, very, very beautiful people.
There's that capacity to be extremely powerful, extremely beautiful, and connected, really connected with each other.
And that's what inspires me to talk about all of this.
joe rogan
So, in a sense, you guys are kind of Buddhist evangelists.
That's part of what you're doing in the podcast.
You're sort of explaining or expressing how this has enhanced your life.
emily horn
This is one way.
vince horn
Yeah, it's one way to do it.
I mean, we're not evangelists in the sort of missionary sense.
I think we're evangelists in the sense that we think there's value here for some people, for some of the time, that are inclined toward this or find it attractive.
And if they do, like we have, it's useful to be able to connect with other folks who've done it and who...
In some sense can be there with you.
One of our mentors said the role of a teacher is to be just a little less afraid than the student.
It doesn't mean they have it completely figured out.
It just means they have a little bit less fear of what's happening.
So I think it's useful to connect with people like that if you find you're attracted to something like that.
If you're into psychedelics, we've explored psychedelics.
It's useful to go work with people who know a bit about it and who can Not freak out if you have a bad trip or if you start losing your mind.
That can extend their stability to you so that you can actually go through that process and learn from it.
And in the end, have an empowering experience of it.
Or at least an empowering interpretation of what happened.
Instead of just feeling like, oh my god, my reality sucks and I'm just going to be depressed and kind of crawl into a hole.
So I think in the same way, for us, we just want to create a space where people can practice together like they've been doing for thousands of years, sitting and exploring their minds in a collective.
joe rogan
Well, I think you two are the calmest people I've ever had in the podcast.
This has been like the calmest podcast ever.
And I think in that sense, you guys are excellent representations of the Buddhist lifestyle, right?
Because that's what it's all about, right?
Being at peace.
vince horn
Sometimes.
joe rogan
Being chilled?
vince horn
Sometimes.
joe rogan
Unless you're a Dharma punk?
unidentified
Unless you're driving up to 4 or 5 at 5 o'clock.
Yeah.
joe rogan
That'll do it to you.
That'll definitely do it to you.
Thank you guys very much.
It's been a lot of fun.
It's entertaining three hours.
And if anybody wants to get a hold of your podcast, your Twitter handle is BuddhistGeeks.
Emily Horn and Vincent Horn, those are your two individual Twitter handles and your website.
vince horn
Buddhistgeeks.com.
joe rogan
And the podcast is Buddhist Geeks and available on iTunes, all that jazz.
Are you guys on Stitcher?
vince horn
Yes.
joe rogan
Yes.
Excellent.
And can you just, do you have a video aspect of it or just audio only?
vince horn
We do a conference every year and so we've recorded all of the presentations at the conference and do release those eventually as videos.
joe rogan
Maybe it was on BuddhistGeeks.com?
vince horn
Yeah.
joe rogan
Okay, terrific.
Well, thank you guys.
Thank you very much.
It's been a lot of fun.
unidentified
Thank you.
joe rogan
Very interesting.
vince horn
Thank you.
joe rogan
Thanks to our sponsor.
Thanks to LegalZoom.com.
Go to LegalZoom.com and use the code word ROGEN at the referral box at checkout to save yourself some money.
Thanks also to Blue Apron.
Go to blueapron.com forward slash, what is it?
Forward slash Rogan.
Blueapron.com forward slash Rogan and get your first two meals for free.
We'll be back tomorrow with stand-up comedian Nick Yusuf and lots more podcasts this week.
So take care and bye-bye for now.
Export Selection