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May 15, 2025 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
21:48
LtCOL. Tony Shaffer : Is Trump Neocon or America First?
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Good morning, everyone.
Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Thursday, May 15th, 2025.
Colonel Tony Schaefer joins us now.
Colonel Schaefer.
Good morning.
Always a pleasure.
So I've been dying to ask you this all week, as you and I have many neocon friends.
How are they reacting to Donald Trump in Saudi Arabia and Qatar so far, saying things like...
America will no longer tell you how to live.
We wasted trillions trying to do it and we didn't know what the hell we were doing.
Well, they still think they can convince them to say one thing and do something else.
That's what they're banking on.
And look no further than the Keith Kellogg and Marco Rubio-led effort in Istanbul as we speak.
You know, I know Marco.
We're not...
Close.
I've met him a couple times, and I've never met Keith Kellogg, but they are members of the club President Trump is complaining about.
So I always find it interesting, and I've never been in a room with all of them, so I've never seen the dynamics, but I agree with President Trump.
And you and I are friends with Bruce Fine.
Bruce always talks about having an overwhelmingly effective defense that we use primarily to defend the United States and our people, not to be expeditionary to go look for trouble.
And I've been in combat.
It's not a good place to be.
I think President Trump would agree with what I just said.
With that said, he's putting people...
Some people around him who don't share that philosophy.
And this is where they, by their axis, I think, believe they can continue to push him back towards the neocon side.
And if I were advising him, I would tell him to pick different advisors.
So here is a guy, we'll play the clip in a minute, we're talking about him now, who for years voted to fund the war in Ukraine.
Who denounced Putin as a war criminal, who claimed that Putin wants to not only take Ukraine, but the crazy, wacky Joe Biden, going back to LBJ, domino theory that history has rejected.
Here he is now as the Secretary of State of the United States for Donald J. Trump.
Chris, cut number 14. The big issue on everyone's mind is what's happening with Russia and Ukraine.
The President of the United States has been abundantly clear he wants the war to end.
He's open to virtually any mechanism that gets us to a just, enduring, and lasting peace.
And that's what he wants to see.
He wants to see an end of wars.
He wants to keep wars from happening.
That was earlier today.
So you are telling us...
Colonel Anthony Schaefer, that Marco Rubio has not changed his spots.
He's just changed his words.
Again, I haven't talked to Marco Rubio since he's become Secretary of the State.
I've appreciated much of what he said because it reflects his boss's position.
With that said, I think they have certain instincts.
Is that a good word I can use without getting in trouble?
Inclinations?
To basically use military force first and ask questions later.
And I've seen this from both Democrat and Republicans.
This isn't unique to the Republicans.
We talk about the neocons, but Judge Hillary Clinton is as much a neocon or neolib, whatever you want it to.
You know, it's the representatives of the deep state.
I'll just say it.
It's those folks who want to have some level of perpetual engagement in war overseas.
To distract us from resolving things closer to home.
That's my judgment, anyway.
All right.
Does Marco Rubio whisper in the president's ear each morning?
And when he does whisper in his ear, is it neocon nothings?
No, I think he's whispering about Cafe Cubano's down in Miami.
No, no, I'm joking about that.
I don't think he does that.
But he should.
But back to the topic.
I think that, again, if you look at the accumulated advice, again, I'm not in a room, I don't know what's going on, but I think if you just look at what happens behind the scenes, if you can see it, he and Keith Kellogg continue to push President Trump on this theme that Russia bad, Ukraine good, Russia wants to take over.
And be the old empire.
Now, let me put it...
Anybody who actually studies the war understands that while Putin wants to reestablish certain Soviet-level authorities regarding over territory, it's not about taking Western Europe.
It's about essentially reestablishing what they need, the Russians need, for their feeling of security.
It is what it is.
You can't change it.
They have an inherent paranoia that they have.
It's a cultural thing.
And President Trump has talked about getting to root causes.
That's one of the root causes.
We have to address that.
Steve Wyckoff gets it.
He's a business guy.
I think he, like any good business guy, is going to understand the point of view of the guy you're negotiating against and take that into account.
I just don't see that from Keith Kellogg.
Keith Kellogg continues to use the bellicose language of They want to take over Ukraine, and once they get to Ukraine, they want to move on.
And nothing indicates that from any of the folks I speak to whatsoever.
All right, so what is Sebastian Gorka whispering his ear?
What is Pete Hegseth whispering his ear?
What are the other neocons in the National Security Council whispering his ear?
The same Lindsey Graham, Tom Cotton line?
So, again, I'm not talking...
Sorry to interrupt you, Colonel, because Donald Trump has a tendency, you and I have talked about this, to listen to the people he's been speaking to last.
Yeah, I know.
So, Seb Gorka, I believe, you know, I know Seb, you know Seb.
Seb, I think, has a...
He has neocon instincts.
I think he tends to want to go towards...
Using military force, I think that's why he's there as the counterterrorism advisor, because he's going to be using force.
You and I both know Pete, Pete Heksteth.
I think Pete is much more of a mind of what you and I would agree is practical.
It's like, hey, we need to have a very effective, prepared defense.
Let's look at how we prepare for the next war, not the last one.
And let's not use military force unless absolutely necessary.
I think he'd be the guy in the room in a discussion about military force saying this should be the last option.
So that's, I've talked to Pete lately, but I think that's his perspective on it.
I think he's much more pragmatic about...
I mean, he's been in combat too, Judge.
I think people who've been in combat tend to understand you really don't want to have to use that as an option unless you absolutely have to.
You have been in combat.
I have.
The head of the government in Syria fought against and killed Americans.
He was the head of the Al-Qaeda group in Syria.
Donald Trump embraced him as a great man yesterday.
How did you feel about that, Colonel Schaefer?
Well, as I said on Newsmax, it's like, I'm kind of skeptical.
I am skeptical.
I mean, we've seen this movie before, multiple times.
Like, oh yeah, yeah, some guy says, I've got new, you know, I'm reformed.
I want to be part of the international community.
And they go a different way.
And they were just, what, last week killing Christians?
Christians, Alawites, and babies.
His terrorist group last week.
I'm troubled by this.
And so the two competing interests here.
One, ungoverned space.
The big issue for me is we don't want to see Syria go more into the camp of Libya being a failed state.
Ungoverned space is a petri dish for terrorists, as we've seen.
So a return of governance that benefits the Syrian people, I'm all for.
I think the Syrian people have been abused by everybody for years.
Including us.
Including us.
We're there right now still.
So if there's a path to bringing governance back to the region, I'm all for it.
With that said.
Is this the right guy to do it?
I know this is Erdogan's guy.
I think that's why President Trump's going along with it.
That's my judgment.
I don't know.
I haven't talked to folks.
I'm just a guy talking into a computer.
But I think it's apparent that Erdogan has some level of influence over this because Erdogan, I think, was the primary instigator.
How do your friends, the Israelis, feel about this?
Combined with Trump's visit to the Middle East and not going to Israel, Trump no longer bombing the Houthis, Trump sending the B-52s home, Trump providing humanitarian aid to the Gazans.
Trump lifting the sanctions on Syria.
How do the Israelis feel about all this?
Well, I haven't talked to the Israelis, but my impression from reading accounts over the last five days is that Benjamin Netanyahu is very upset.
There's been a rift between the two men.
The Houthi announcing that, hey, we're going to kind of stand down against the United States, they're trying to build a wedge between President Trump and Netanyahu.
Also, I think President Trump had asked for a ceasefire in Gaza before the Middle East trip.
He didn't get it.
So clearly there's friction there.
The question is, will that friction be sufficient to put a wedge in the recovery of the relationship?
No, I don't think so.
I think the whole issue regarding the announcement today by President Trump, that he feels they're close.
The Trump administration is close to a...
I agree with President Trump as well.
But you know, Tony, if there's an agreement with Iran, an agreement meaning Iran accepts it, there's going to be a provision that allows them to enrich uranium for domestic purposes.
Which is perfectly legitimate and acceptable for energy and for high-end hospital use.
And Tehran has some of the best hospitals in the Middle East.
I have no problem with that.
The one organization which has been mostly good on this is the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Organization of the UN.
As long as there's a real path for them to go and do inspections to kind of look at things, I have no problem.
As a matter of fact, I'm doing a taping next Wednesday for Newsmax regarding nuclear weapons.
I'm not sure if this topic is going to come up, but I'm booked to do some segments on that.
And as someone who has worked this issue, as a matter of fact, I was texting with Ambassador Hank Cooper this morning, who ran the Strategic Defense Initiative years ago, and I was on the New Year's Strategy Forum with him.
The issue is how do we detect any enrichment past a certain percentage which then could be only used for weapons grade?
Or how do we detect?
It's more about how do we find enforcement mechanisms that everybody agrees upon?
That's the issue as far as I'm concerned.
Let's segue a little bit.
Do you have a problem with the image of Trump accepting a $400 million?
Gift from the Qataris.
You know this mentality.
Do the Qataris give something away without expecting a quid pro quo?
Of course they expect something.
Nobody gives away that much without...
Look, first off, it's never going to happen.
I think this is a troll.
This is, as I said the other day, cats and lasers.
Like, okay, here's the latest thing.
Go chase it.
An Air Force One requires...
A number of strategic systems, I only know about a handful, that take immense care to install.
Things like communications, things like escape systems, things like countermeasures.
You can't install that in six months, Judge.
As a matter of fact, that's why Boeing hasn't delivered the new Air Force One.
These things, well, I think Boeing is purposely not doing it, but it's a different story.
To take this and make it Air Force One is not practicable.
It's never going to happen.
So I think it's just cats and lasers.
I think it's MacGuffin.
Here's a profound issue, which has upset me very much.
Why do we need a Defense Department budget?
Of a trillion dollars, Tony.
Yeah.
This is what Donald Trump proposed, and this is what our friend Pete Hegseth is going to defend.
Trump once proposed cutting it in half, and now he wants to, what's another few hundred billion?
A trillion's a nice number.
Let's go over a trillion.
It looks good.
Yeah, this is where you and I share this, and again, I go back to my friend Bruce Fine.
I want an effective defense, not an expensive defense.
They have gone through and started doge cuts.
I am well aware of that because I'm hearing about them every day from my contacts at the Pentagon.
And Pete is a friend.
I'm not going to badmouth Pete on this.
I think Pete has looked at things.
I think it's going to take him some time to understand in a greater detail, a greater sense of how the Pentagon works.
I think he's learning rapidly.
With that said, we have to consider the next war and what that looks like.
Putting money into a legacy defense department at a higher level is going to result in the same failures we've seen in the Department of Education.
Oh, by the way, we're shutting down the Department of Education, right?
Just saying.
Well, it's about time.
It shouldn't have existed.
It's not authorized under the Constitution.
But back to the DOD.
And I've quoted these numbers so many times, Tony.
So it's for the audience, not for you.
But we spend more than the next 10 countries combined, one of which Russia has a bigger army, one of which China has a bigger navy.
More than 10 countries combined.
Why do we continue to waste money?
Because we can.
Does Donald Trump think it makes us stronger that we're spending more money?
Again, I haven't talked to the man.
I don't know.
I've been asked to provide certain perspectives on things I would do if I were there.
And I've said, on the record and privately, I'm just going to share what I said.
We need to look at reductions of about 25% and cutting the budget about half of most of the organizations at the Pentagon.
Right after I'm done here, I have to go meet with the local mayor here in Edenton.
Two of the last three days in budget discussions.
Trust me on this, Judge.
I am learning a lot as a county commissioner.
The first thing you learn is you've got to stay within a budget, and you've got to figure out you want to do all these things, but you only have this much money.
Yeah, but your county can't print money the way the Fed can.
That's my point.
That's my point, is that when you learn to live within certain guidelines, you create efficiencies and innovation.
So the more you...
Pour money into it, the lazier people get.
People get lazy with money, Judge.
Come on.
We know this.
Yeah, just go do it.
No, no, no.
We need to look at how local...
I'm learning a lot about this.
So if I ever go to a federal position, it's like nonsense.
I don't care if we can get as much as we want.
It doesn't create efficiency and effectiveness.
So again, as I started out by my comment on this, I want an effective defense, not an expensive defense.
And the two are mutually exclusive.
Just saying.
As we speak, Secretary of State Rubio and Foreign Minister Lavrov and their large entourages are meeting in Istanbul.
You know, the rumors were Putin's going to go, Putin's going to stand there next to Zelensky, Trump's going to show up unannounced.
Here's what President Trump had to say about that.
And my question to you, which I'd like you to answer after you hear.
What he said is, and then I know you have to run to your meeting with the mayor, does Donald Trump have a realistic understanding of the special military operation?
But first, Chris, cut number 13. No, I didn't anticipate.
I actually said, why would he go if I'm not going?
Because I wasn't going to go.
I wasn't planning to go.
I would go.
But I wasn't planning to go, and I said, I don't think he's going to go if I don't go, and that turned out to be right.
But we have people there.
Marco, as you know, is doing a fantastic job.
Marco's there, Secretary of State, and we have people there.
But I didn't think it was possible for Putin to go if I'm not there.
I really think he can negotiate a resolution between, that Rubio can negotiate a resolution between Putin.
And Zelensky, if Zelensky concedes Crimea and the four oblasts and no NATO, he might as well fly to Miami, because if he flies to Kiev, he'll be flying to his own funeral.
Yeah, so that's the deal.
Zelensky's done because of his extreme right wing.
The Russians call them Nazis.
I'm just saying, I'm not representing it, I'm just reflecting it.
Right.
And the other thing is...
The Europeans have said over and over they want to put troops in there.
The comfort force.
What is a comfort force, Judge?
I'm a military guy.
I've never heard of this term.
They want to have a reassurance force.
What is that?
I mean, they want to put French troops in.
Are they going to serve croissant at the rear or something?
I don't know.
I mean, it's insane.
So the basic terms that they continue to call for on the West, it's not going to be acceptable to Russia.
They don't have to.
And this is where, if I were in the room with President Trump, I'd just say, look, get real.
Everything the Europeans and Kellogg keep saying, it's a fantasy.
It's never going to happen.
The Russians will never go for it.
They're winning.
As long as they're winning and you cannot influence that, there's nothing militarily we can do to stop it, you've got to go to their level of understanding, which is Istanbul plus, basically, they get to keep what they've got and Ukraine becomes...
A Switzerland-type neutral nation.
That's it.
If you want to end it, you cut that deal.
I like what you called it, Istanbul Plus.
You're not talking about Istanbul today.
You're talking about Istanbul in 2022.
The 126-page agreement.
Every page was initialed by the Russians and Ukrainians.
Tell me if you're meeting with the mayor.
Tell the mayor we wish him or her well.
Mayor Hakai.
He's a lawyer.
Just say it.
Lawyers are dangerous in public affairs.
You know that.
Thank you, Tony.
All the best.
We'll see you next week.
Thanks, Judge.
Wonderful conversation.
Coming up later today, if we can find him at 11 o 'clock, Max Blumenthal.
But certainly at 2 o 'clock, Aaron Maté.
At 3 o 'clock, Professor John Mearsheimer.
And at 4 o 'clock, the always worth waiting for, he's hot under the collar again, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson.
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