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May 14, 2025 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
24:29
Aaron Maté : Can US and Hamas Talk Without Israel?
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Hi, everyone.
Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Friday, May 15, 2025.
Our dear friend and world traveler from Turkey, Aaron Mate, is here now.
Aaron, a pleasure, my dear friend.
Thank you very much for joining us.
Is Trump sick and tired and finally manifesting his sickness and tiredness of Bibi Netanyahu?
I wish I could say he was.
And if he reaches But until he actually does something that breaks from the current policy, the current Trump policy.
of backing Israeli aggression, where every single day there are new massacres for all of us to see on our social media feeds, mostly of innocent civilians, including many children.
Until then, a lot of what Trump is doing is just posturing.
But I don't want to discount the fact there are talks going on between the U.S. and Iran.
There are very many positive signs.
It very much looks like there could be a deal at hand, and that would be a wonderful thing.
But recall, though, before we get...
Trump too much credit for that.
It was him that put all of us in this position to begin with because he tore up the Iran nuclear deal in his first term, which was working at the time, until he came along and nixed it, thereby putting himself in this position now.
Has he shown any signs of wanting to end the Israeli annihilation of the Palestinian people?
I think the answer to that is no, but you would know this better than I. I fully agree with you.
The proof is in the daily massacres that all of us can see that are continuing every single day.
And look, I hate to give Joe Biden any credit, but under Biden, at least there was some pressure on Israel to allow in humanitarian aid, which it wanted to block.
Under Trump, he's let Netanyahu preside over a more than two-month-long siege of Gaza, blocking all food from getting in.
Gaza is starving, and Trump is doing nothing about it.
He made a few side comments recently about how, yes, we're going to do something.
We're going to take care of it.
He's done absolutely nothing.
So in terms of his actions so far, full green light to Israeli mass murder.
How offensive to Prime Minister Netanyahu was the American negotiation directly with Hamas for the release of this young man from New Jersey who was fighting with the IDF?
It was very offensive, and Israeli officials made that known.
The first talks between the U.S. and Hamas began actually in March between the U.S. hostage envoy and Hamas officials in Doha.
And when Netanyahu got word of this, he dispatched a top aide, Ron Dermer, to basically sabotage the talks.
And after that hostage envoy, and we've talked with this before on your show, Adam Bowler, Went on CNN and said the U.S. is not the agent of Israel.
We have our own interests.
And actually, he found the Hamas people to be reasonable.
You can't say that on corporate TV.
You can't say that Hamas can be negotiated with and that we're not the agent of Israel.
So he was taken off of that beat.
But Steve Wyckoff picked it up recently, and that's what produced this deal to free Adon Alexander, which Netanyahu this time was not able to sabotage.
And the reason why Netanyahu wants to sabotage it is because if you start having negotiations with Hamad, you start having exchanges of captives, that makes peace.
And that removes his pretext to pursue his real goal, which is emptying Gaza of Palestinians, who he does not want there.
That's his goal.
On top of destroying Gaza, making it unlivable, he also wants to force all the Palestinians to flee.
He's been...
I mean, it's so miserable that many people now are, many more than before, are talking about leaving.
It's pretty obvious, even from speaking to people that I know in Gaza.
But being freed, that's going to interrupt his plans.
So let me get this straight.
The chief negotiator, the chief American negotiator with Hamas, was removed from his position.
Because he made a truthful statement on mainstream media that the United States doesn't need Israel's permission.
He still has the position but he was removed from the task of talking to Hamas.
They held at least three meetings in Doha.
And they were very, very fruitful.
And Hamas actually reduced its demands over the course of those talks because they were asking for Adam Boller to help facilitate the release of many Palestinian political prisoners held in Israeli prisons, which Adam Boller said was just not possible.
And he wanted Aidan Alexander released because he's American-Israeli.
And so Hamas now, after the latest round of talks, which Israel, again, after Israel killed the first round of talks, Hamas basically released Adon Alexander without getting anything that at least we can see publicly in return.
There's no concessions that we can see from Trump that he made to Hamas.
So Hamas is taking a gamble here that engaging in talks, committing an act of good faith by releasing Adon Alexander repeatedly.
Will the United States They can if they want to, because if there's one thing we've learned from this year and a half long genocide is that the moment the U.S. actually uses its leverage, Israel has to comply.
So, for example, after Trump got elected.
He didn't want to have the distraction of this mass murder campaign going on around his inauguration.
And also, he had threatened Hamas with more retaliation and there'll be hell to pay.
And he didn't want to have to fall through on that so quickly into his time in office.
So what did he do?
Through Steve Wyckoff, he told Netanyahu, there has to be a ceasefire.
And Netanyahu totally fell in line.
That's just one illustration of the extensive leverage that the U.S. has.
So yes, if the U.S. was serious about a ceasefire, if they negotiated one with Hamas, I absolutely believe that Trump could compel Netanyahu to fall in line and actually obey whatever the U.S. brokers with Hamas.
In the negotiations with Hamas, did Hamas actually make some extraordinary offers like laying down arms or a ceasefire for five or ten years?
I'm very glad you raised that because this is exactly why Netanyahu wanted to sabotage the talks.
It wasn't just because of the immediate prospect of freeing all the...
Hamas has basically accepted a massive Palestinian compromise of accepting just 22% of their stolen homeland, a Palestinian state in the West Bank.
Gaza and East Jerusalem.
Top Hamas leaders have accepted that.
It's only Israel that has refused that with U.S. support.
And so, yes, Adam Bowler was told by Hamas that we would be open to a 5-10 year truce.
And it's obvious what Hamas is doing there.
They're laying that down because they actually want to negotiate a lasting resolution to all of this.
So start with a 5-10 year truce, and then you move towards a permanent settlement.
And for them, that means...
A major Palestinian compromise of just 22% of their historic homeland, the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem.
Top Hamas leaders have said that.
It's only because Israel is so hell-bent on hegemony, supremacy, that they refuse to even accept a Palestinian compromise.
A Palestinian surrender.
Because for Palestinians, 22% of their homeland is saying, Israel has stolen the rest of it and we're not going to lay claim to that.
That's very, very painful for Palestinians, especially now.
But still you have Hamas making concessions that Israel will never, ever, ever make because they're driven by supremacy, not security.
What are the optics of the President of the United States embracing a Brooks Brothers-clad former Al-Qaeda commander known to slaughter Alawites, Christians, and babies?
So you're referring to a Trump meeting with the new President of Syria.
I am.
And yeah, that was quite extraordinary.
And this is a former leader of al-Qaeda in Syria, the founder of al-Qaeda in Syria, a former deputy leader of ISIS, reporting to the former caliph of ISIS, al-Baghdadi, who Trump brags constantly about defeating.
So Trump talks about ISIS being an enemy and I helped defeat them, but now here he is giving a warm handshake to a former deputy leader of ISIS.
It's quite striking.
And he also announced that he would be lifting sanctions on Syria, which are very, very sadistic.
And he called them actually brutal and crippling sanctions, which is accurate.
And no one...
Do you think he even told Netanyahu before he made that announcement?
I can't imagine that Netanyahu was pleased with that.
No, I don't think so.
But you know what?
I should finish the thought about Jelani.
So the fact that Trump...
The fact that Trump shakes his hand, calls him an attractive young man, he said he has a strong past, by which he meant Johnny's past leading al-Qaeda in Syria.
It just speaks to how U.S. hegemony works, where if you are on the other side of U.S. adversaries, in the case of Syria, that was Assad.
The US was trying to overthrow Assad because he was a part of the acts of resistance, which deters Israeli hegemony.
That's why he was marked for regime change a very, very long time ago by the Bush administration, which the Obama administration then picked up and put on steroids with timber sycamore, the CIA dirty war, billions of dollars spent on weapons funding and arming the Al-Qaeda dominated insurgency.
So if you look at the same thing, It doesn't matter if you're al-Qaeda, if you're ISIS, if you stand against U.S. adversaries, as was the case with Assad, then...
All was forgiven.
All was forgotten.
Which means the former leader of al-Qaeda and ISIS can get a sit-down with the President of the United States and a handshake and Trump can sing his praises.
Even though Trump has long recognized the realities of the dirty war in Syria.
He called it out in his first run for president.
He noted that we were arming al-Qaeda.
He said that was wrong.
But this is what happens in Washington.
You get in and Washington was committed to regime change and so committed that even the former leader of al-Qaeda Gets a friendly sit-down with the President of the United States.
Now talk to us about the effect of and the background on the announcement of the removal of these very crippling sanctions on Syria.
Right.
So Trump accurately called these sanctions brutal and crippling, which they were.
And it's welcome news that they're being lifted, I think, because these sanctions target the Syrian people.
But it raises the obvious question.
Why were these sanctions ever imposed and what right do we have to impose them?
Did anybody in Syria vote for bureaucrats in Washington to craft really sophisticated, complex sanctions that cut them off from the world economy, from the banking system, that raised the prices of food, all the basics people need to live in Syria and prevent them from rebuilding?
No.
But yet this was the goal of the U.S. to make life for the Syrian people so miserable that the country would...
Basically submit to U.S. dictates, which means overthrowing Assad.
And that's what happened.
After a decade-long dirty war where the U.S. and their allies spent billions of dollars arming an insurgency that Joe Biden admitted was dominated by al-Qaeda and ISIS.
And after also stealing Syria's oil and wheat via the U.S. military occupation in Syria's northeast.
and also imposing these crippling sanctions that prevented Syria from rebuilding, that raised the prices of all the basic commodities.
When I went to Syria a few years ago, people were lining up in long, long queues for fuel because there was none, because Syria wasn't allowed to import it and the price was so high.
And when Iran tried to send in fuel tankers, Israel would bomb them.
So basically Syria was under 6%.
And let me quote you someone.
This is Sarah Jacobs.
She's a Democratic member of Congress on the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
This is what she said about Trump's announcement lifting the sanctions.
She said, with the fall of the Assad regime last year, the U.S. posture should change and shouldn't continue to punish the Syrian people.
We shouldn't continue to punish the Syrian people.
So what she's saying is she's right.
Well, she's right that we shouldn't continue to punish them, but the question is, why should we have punished them to begin with in the first place?
Why is it legitimate to punish civilians because you want to overthrow their government?
It's pure sadism.
We wouldn't accept someone else doing that to the U.S. for all the fault that Trump has and all the opposition there might be to him in the U.S. No Democrat would support crippling sanctions on the American people to help overthrow Trump.
So what right do we have to go and destroy someone else's economy for the sake of overthrowing the government?
They don't care about morality.
To them, it's might makes right.
But here is Trump two days ago.
Announcing the lifting of the sanctions on Syria.
Chris, cut number nine.
After discussing the situation in Syria with the crown prince, your crown prince, and also with President Erdogan of Turkey, who called me the other day and asked for a very similar thing, among others and friends of mine, people that I have a lot of respect for in the Middle East.
I will be ordering the cessation of sanctions against Syria in order to give them a chance at greatness.
Oh, what I do for the crown prince.
The sanctions were brutal and crippling and served as an important, really an important function nevertheless at the time.
But now it's their time to shine.
It's their time to shine.
We're taking them all off and they're going to have, I think they're going to have Based on the people and the spirit and everything else that I'm hearing about.
So I say, good luck, Syria.
Show us something very special, like they've done, frankly, in Saudi Arabia.
Okay?
They're going to show us something special.
Very good people.
He still loves to meander and flatter.
Why would Netanyahu and Dermer and why would the Israeli government be opposed to lifting the sanctions?
Do they have their eyes on Damascus?
Well, some people in the Israeli government do have their eyes on Damascus.
I don't know about Netanyahu, but yes, there are some people so extreme in an already extremist, fanatic government that, yes, they consider Syria part of greater Israel, and they do have the signs.
But why Israel would want the sanctions is that, well, they would love to see Syria in perpetual conflicts and perpetual misery, which is why they supported the dirty war.
They loved the fact that you had Arabs fighting each other.
And tied up inside Syria.
The fact that the Syria Dirty War split different sides of the Palestinian cause.
So even inside Hamas, there were splits over Syria.
Israel loved that.
Because what better gift to Israel is rather than have the region united and deterring Israeli hegemony, you have the region, some countries in the region, including Saudi Arabia.
Syria, arming sectarian death squads in Syria, fighting the government, and therefore taking out a major plank in the acts of resistance.
That's what Syria was.
Syria wasn't directly fighting Israel, but Syria under Assad was helping to supply weapons to Hezbollah.
That's why the Bush administration got on board with regime change in Damascus after the July 2006 war when Syria played a major role in helping Hezbollah.
Push back an Israeli invasion.
That's why they had to go.
So Netanyahu would love to see the sanctions on Syria just to keep it weak and divided.
And that's why they're pushing for that.
And again, the problems in Syria, the cynical strategy of basically making a country suffer into submission, it works.
It works.
People in Syria, of course, are going to welcome.
I mean, if this actually happens, Congress still has to pass some measures to lift all the sanctions, but Trump can do some stuff on his own.
But it just shows that the U.S. strategy around the world is to, you know, and they've done this in Central America as well.
They did this in Nicaragua.
You make a country suffer so much, people get sick and tired of resisting, and they give up, and the state finally collapses.
And so, yes, it's welcome that these sanctions are being lifted to Syrian people, but they never should have been imposed to begin with.
You're in Turkey.
Also in Turkey is Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov and United States Secretary of State Marco Rubio.
Guess who else is in Turkey with Marco Rubio?
Chris, can you put this picture up?
Hang on to your most recent meal.
Senator Lindsey Graham.
What on earth is he doing there?
This is neocon central all over again.
There's Secretary Rubio, Senator Graham and the Ukrainian foreign minister.
You can see Senator Graham beaming from ear to ear.
I wonder what he said that has him so happy.
huh what the hell is lindsey graham doing there lindsey graham is the senator who infamously visited ukraine right before trump was inaugurated in uh Early 2016.
And he said, along with John McCain, their message was, your fight is our fight, and Russia is going to pay a very, very heavy price.
And what they were saying was, Ukraine's our proxy war, and we're going to keep using you to fight Russia.
And that's the project he's on board with throughout, including since Russia invaded, largely because of the policies that Lindsey Graham helped promote.
So I suspect, if I'm just guessing, he didn't assemble these peace locks.
This is news to me, so I'm just reacting now.
He's there because he wants to make sure that his project of using Ukraine as a NATO proxy against Russia is not impeded, that the U.S. is not going to go too far in his mind to meet Russian demand.
So I think he's keeping a very watchful eye over his fellow neocon, Marco Rubio.
Here he is in December 2016, Senator Lindsey Graham and the late Senator John McCain.
Cut number three.
Your fight is our fight.
2017 will be the year of offense.
All of us will go back to Washington and we will push the case against Russia.
Enough of a Russian aggression.
It is time for them to pay a heavier price.
I believe you will win.
I am convinced you will win and we will do everything we can to provide you with what you need to win.
Yeah, beautiful.
Wow.
So he, you know, he really hasn't changed at all.
Here he is in.
In December, or excuse me, in May of 2023 with that infamous best money we ever spent.
This is gut-wrenching, but we'll watch it.
Cut number four.
Big, big support.
Very important.
The best money we've ever spent.
Thank you so much.
You know, we're on, let's see, this is 457th day of a war that was supposed to last three days.
You amaze me.
Your country amazes me.
It's about our people.
And about your people.
Your people help our people.
All our appreciations.
You remind me of our better selves in America.
There was a time in America that we were this way.
Fighting to the last person.
We're going to be free or die.
Free or die?
Free or die.
Now you are free.
Yes, and we will be.
And the Russians are dying.
She recognized the voice of the person to whom he was speaking, Ukrainian President Zelensky, who was the president of Ukraine at the time but isn't any longer.
What could possibly come from Rubio and Lavrov?
What could possibly come from this?
Just one comment on...
Lindsey Graham in that first clip you played, where he says 2017 will be the year of offense.
Is he a Ukrainian commander?
He's representing the people of South Carolina.
Those are his constituents, but he's speaking as if he's a commander of Ukrainian forces.
Who is he to tell the Ukrainians 2017 will be the year of offense?
Well, he's someone who's heavily involved in a proxy war that has gotten a whole lot worse because of the policies he promoted.
So he promised 2017 being the year of offense.
Well, 2022 became the year of Russia's offense.
And because of...
People like Lindsey Graham, a lot of Ukrainians and Russians have died.
I mean, it's not solely the fault of the U.S. and Ukraine.
I mean, it was Russia's choice to invade.
But that just speaks to the mentality inside Washington, where they have the right to tell a foreign country that next year will be the year of offense.
You're going to fight on our behalf.
Your fight is our fight.
What could come out of Rubio and Lavrov?
Well, look, it depends on Zelensky.
Zelensky pulled this stunt.
Where he said that, you know, I'm going to go to Istanbul and I challenge Putin to show up.
And then he said that if Putin doesn't show up, then that shows the Russians aren't serious about peace talks.
As if only Vladimir Putin can negotiate peace with Ukraine.
And we know that that's not true because actually Putin's aides negotiated a very extensive peace treaty with Ukraine three years ago.
This month in Istanbul, which Zelensky walked away from.
And Zelensky since then has signed a decree ruling out peace talks with Putin.
So on the one hand, he says, I can only reach peace talks with Putin, while also putting his name on a decree that says, I cannot discuss peace talks with Putin.
So it's completely nonsensical.
It was a stunt.
He knew Putin wouldn't show up and he doesn't want to actually the talks to continue with lower level Russian officials, including the foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, who has a fair amount of authority and certainly expertise in these matters.
So Zelensky is just showing himself again to be an actor.
I mean, that's what he originally was and that's what he's continuing to do while serving as president.
Aaron Maté, thank you, my dear friend.
I know it's late in the day or maybe even tomorrow where you are, but very much appreciate it.
Thanks for accommodating my schedule.
Safe travels, and we'll look forward to seeing you next week.
Thanks, Josh.
Thank you.
And coming up tomorrow, Friday, today's Thursday, tomorrow's Friday at four in the afternoon, the Intelligence Community Roundtable.
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