All Episodes
Previous Next
Feb. 11, 2025 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
28:44
COL. Douglas Macgregor : Fall of the American Empire
| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
Hi, everyone.
Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Tuesday, February 11th, 2025.
Colonel Douglas McGregor joins us now.
Colonel, always a pleasure.
I have a lot to ask you about with respect to Israel, Gaza, President Trump, Prime Minister Netanyahu, and your fear articulated here and elsewhere that we may be on the verge.
Burge of a regional war.
But before that, first to Russia.
Colonel, do we know if President Trump and President Putin have actually spoken, notwithstanding President Trump's claim that there have been several conversations since he re-entered the White House?
Well, actually, I was under the impression that he had said there had been only one, and that was from Air Force One quite recently.
But perhaps he's talked about others.
But as far as I know, the Russians have not confirmed anything.
And they sent out an official statement and said, we haven't had any formal approaches whatsoever, no serious discussion.
And what we see is a lot of sloganeering, but nothing serious.
Do you have an opinion of the current state?
Well, if you're a Russian and you listen to many of the statements that President Trump has made over the last week or so, you are probably deeply offended, if for no other reason, because President Trump, for reasons that I don't understand,
continues to repeat the lies that constitute the narrative that was spun up by the Biden administration about Ukraine.
We're back to these outrageous numbers of Russian losses, which are wrong.
And we now have independent institutes, foundations all over the West telling us that Russian growth is at 3.9 to 4%, which is exactly what the Russians have claimed.
So their economy is not in trouble.
They are not desperate, quote-unquote, for a deal.
And I think conveying the impression that somehow or another the Russians are.
Has offended them.
And we may have reached the point where, quite frankly, since we have no leverage over them whatsoever, the Russians are just going to continue to move forward and do whatever they think is appropriate to, quote, clean up the battlefield, unquote, and end the war on terms that they find acceptable.
I think there's a high probability that that could happen.
I mean, is there any chance whatsoever That Putin would negotiate anything about a demilitarized zone or about NATO.
I would think that these are utter non-starters, and if the Trump administration doesn't know that, it's delusional.
Well, I think they are delusional.
That's eminently clear from the statements that come out of the White House and also people inside President Trump's inner circle.
No, there's no chance.
They don't want a demilitarized zone.
They don't want a permanent divide between themselves and the rest of Europe.
They're not interested in perpetuating these hostilities.
And they would like some recognition that this regime in Kiev is highly corrupt, destructive, and frankly, barbarous.
I mean, the things that they've done to the Russians, that they've captured, the civilians they've murdered.
Now rounding up more boys to send to the front to die for nothing.
All of these things should somehow or another break through this mountain or wall of lies that continues to dominate our thinking.
So I think the Russians are ready to simply get on with it, walk away from us, and do what they think is appropriate.
This is not the clip where the president says the Russian economy is collapsing, a known falsehood.
But this is his last statement, saying we're talking to both sides.
Chris, cut number six.
Sir, can you tell us about your conversation with Vladimir Putin?
I don't want to do that now.
We're trying to end that war.
It's a war that would have never happened if I were president.
It would have never happened.
But we're making progress, but I can't tell you.
On Putin again, you realize if you don't clarify that, everyone's going to assume you're talking?
To President Putin regularly?
Well, they can assume that.
It makes sense.
Well, I don't want to talk about it.
And if we are talking, I don't want to tell you about the conversation.
It's too early.
But I do believe we're making progress.
We want to stop the Ukraine-Russia war.
And I want to stop it just because I hate to see all these young people being killed.
The soldiers are being killed by the hundreds of thousands.
So you're starting to put together a plan for a peace formula or for some sort of resolution?
We're talking to both sides.
Well, I guess he's talking to somebody if they're talking to both sides.
I mean, maybe Secretary Rubio is talking to Foreign Minister Lavrov or maybe Mike Walsh is speaking with, I don't know the name of, his opposite number in the Kremlin.
It's hard to tell.
First of all, the good news is President Trump has expressed the right sentiments.
But I think there has to be a recognition on his part which is not yet there.
That, frankly, we're not going to impose anything on the Russians.
There is a supposition that Russia has to accept something that we create.
And in reality, that's not the case, which is why continually now for weeks, whenever I've been on your show and others, I've said suspend the military aid immediately, withdraw all U.S. personnel, civilian, military, otherwise, and then offer to host a conference.
Well, I just don't think we have this important role to play.
Now, on the other hand, what the Russians would like to talk to us about is a larger security architecture for Europe.
They would like to get past all this hostility, come up with a solution that guarantees The security of everybody, themselves and the Europeans.
And we could participate in that and we could close, quote-unquote, a deal with the Russians.
And given the fact that President Trump, I know, wants to reduce our troop presence in Europe, he wants to reduce our profile overseas, he ought to grab at that particular opportunity because that's the answer to one of his preferred questions,
which is...
Why are we still there 70 years, 80 years later?
Well, we don't need to be.
So let's talk to the Russians about the larger security question.
I don't know why that hasn't happened, but the people around him are clearly not providing him with an accurate picture of the battlefield in Ukraine, other than to point out, yeah, hundreds of thousands of people are being killed.
Right now, those are Ukrainians.
Russian losses are minuscule compared with what they were over the last three years.
That's because the Ukrainian military has collapsed.
Didn't you know that from talking to Larry Johnson and Scott Ritter and others?
Right, right, right.
This is not a secret.
Here is my fear, and I want to transfer over to Israel in a moment.
My fear is that there's nobody around him that thinks the way you do.
My fear is that he's surrounded by people that enable his worst impulses and give him inaccurate information.
And you and I have heard him.
The world has heard him.
Well, there's a reason I'm not there, Judge, and that's the end of it.
And until the president changes his mind or he becomes dissatisfied with the people that are serving him and discovers they're not serving him, then nothing will change.
What has been the geopolitical effect of Trump's off-the-wall I think the best word would be catastrophic,
certainly for the United States, its position in the world, its long-term strategic interests almost everywhere.
I mean, the idea that we, you know, disregarding anything remotely associated with international law.
Or what people used to talk about, the norms of international behavior, which we treat with complete contempt, contrary to the people that talk about it.
I think we destroyed ourselves, particularly in the Islamic world, but not everywhere else is on the same sheet of music.
What gives us the right to annex land that is not ours?
What gives us the right to drive off the people that live on that land?
I mean, I don't care if it's Greenland.
Or Gaza or anywhere else.
We have no such right.
Now, we do have power.
And the signal that President Trump is sending, which is a very dangerous one, is that power legitimates, Judge.
That's it.
No law, just power.
Remember, law means moral restraint.
Where's our moral restraint?
Non-existent.
I don't think that Donald Trump...
He believes he's bound by international norms.
I mean, the ceasefire agreement between Israel and Gaza, which he has urged be violated by demanding all hostages released on Saturday, not just the three the agreement for, was crafted by the United States,
agreed to by the United States, accepted by Israel and Hamas.
The only conclusion anybody watching this can reach is that he is interested, along with Mr. Netanyahu, in triggering a confrontation that will lead to a wider regional war.
Egypt has already poured forces into the field and has resigned itself to the high probability that they will be at war with Israel.
Now, I don't know what Mr. Sisi discussed today with President Trump, but the Egyptians are not going to take in a million Palestinian refugees.
That's off the table.
No one in the Arab world, no one in the Islamic world expects that or would tolerate that.
So that's the first part.
The second part is there is still Iran.
There's the uncertain condition inside Turkey.
We don't seem to have a grasp of how unstable and uncertain that part of the world really is right now and how sensitive everything is.
The Saudis, who, as you know, are normally very restrained, have been very emphatic about what they will not tolerate and what they will not support.
So I think the time for bribing, bullying, and bombing is over.
I'm sure we'll go back to bombing.
I mean, clearly that's what we can expect in Gaza, sadly.
And that message is being sent.
The war resumes, and we're going to force all these people out or kill them.
That's on the table.
Colonel, I don't know if General Al-Sisi was there today, but I do know that King Abdullah was.
You talk about bribing and bullying.
President Trump got King Abdullah to say, we find the proposal very interesting.
But proposal very interesting.
If they accepted...
You've said this.
If Jordan accepted a half a million Palestinians, the king would no longer be king.
No. He'd be dead.
The same thing for Sisi.
What he did agree to do, as I understand it, is to take in 2,000 sick children, many of whom have cancer or are severely wounded, and take them into Jordan.
But 2,000 children for treatment.
It's a far cry from a half a million Palestinians, which is what President Trump wants.
So this has failed, but it's insulted, it's offended, and it's shocked most of the world that we have taken this position, that we can drive out anyone we don't like, take over the land, and do as we wish.
That's what the Israelis have done, and now the Israelis have apparently said, by all means, please have at it, Mr. Trump.
Well, when President Trump, Chris, let's play the clip where he says he wants all of the, I'm sorry, I don't have the number in front of me, Chris, but where he says he wants all of the hostages out,
not the three that are supposed to be out.
Oh, number seven.
Number seven, Chris.
As far as I'm concerned, if all of the hostages aren't returned by Saturday at 12 o'clock, I think it's an appropriate time.
I would say cancel it and all bets are off and let hell break out.
I'd say they ought to be returned by 12 o'clock on Saturday and if they're not returned, all of them, not in drips and drabs, not two and one and three and four and two.
Saturday at 12 o'clock and after that I would say...
All hell is going to break out.
And I don't think they're going to do it.
I think a lot of them are dead.
I think a lot of the hostages are dead.
I think it's a great human tragedy what's happened.
Wow. That produced the following response from Prime Minister Netanyahu, number 14. We all welcomed President Trump's demands for the release of our hostages by Saturday noon,
and we also all welcomed the President's revolutionary vision for the future of Gaza.
In light of Hamas's announcement of its decision to violate the agreement and not release our hostages, last night I ordered the IDF to gather forces inside and around the Gaza Strip.
This operation is being carried out at this time.
It will be completed in the very near future.
The decision that passed unanimously in the Cabinet is this.
If Hamas does not return our hostages by Saturday noon, the ceasefire will end, and the IDF will return to intense fighting until Hamas is completely defeated.
President Trump's statement sounded to you like it was thoughtful and had been run past his advisers.
Did it sound to you as it did to me?
Like he just came up with all hostages out by Saturday noon off the top of his head while he was sitting there.
Well, it's possible.
He is impulsive at times.
But on the other hand, if you look at the advisors, I don't think they would push back against that.
They may even have vigorously nodded in agreement.
There's nobody in that administration right now, particularly as it applies to Israel, who's going to obstruct.
The aims of Israeli policy, which is to completely annihilate the Arab populations in Gaza and on the West Bank.
That's what they want, and they also want to expand that.
That's why the Egyptians, the Jordanians, I think the new Syrian leadership, and obviously Mr. Erdogan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, all of them are looking at this, and they now understand they can't trust anything we say or do anymore.
They're not going to listen at all.
And I think they're getting ready to go to war.
And we always knew, Judge, when we talked about this ceasefire early on, that we would be lucky to get through the first phase.
We never expected the other phases to occur.
So it's not a total surprise.
What is a surprise is that Trump is essentially, by implication, saying that the United States Armed Forces, particularly air and naval power, We'll reinforce and support the Israelis as they press ahead with their campaign of mass murder and extermination.
That's what's really deeply disturbing.
What do you think will trigger a war and why did you mention Egypt?
Well, Egypt is, first of all, it's 100 million people.
It's an enormous, important state in the region.
And the Egyptians historically are not warlike.
These are not people who are looking for a fight and are rejoicing every time they get a chance to join a war by any means.
And they have held back and exercised restraint and put up with Blinken's visits during which Blinken simply repeated Netanyahu's talking points.
They did all of this expecting or hoping at least that President Trump would come in.
And there would be a new path forward that would not involve this sort of unconditional obedience to Netanyahu and his greater Israel plan.
Those hopes have been dashed and destroyed.
Sisi, for a long time now, has been under threat for removal.
You've got several forces in that country competing for power, but perhaps the most important outside of the army is the Muslim Brotherhood.
And the Muslim Brotherhood would like nothing more but to remove Sisi and take over that country, in which case Egypt then would be an Islamist state.
And it would be aligned with not only Mr. Erdogan, who's the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in the region, but with everybody who is opposed to Israel and wants to destroy it.
So I think the loss of Egypt as this bulwark against radicalism It's very, very serious and should be taken seriously.
Now, if President Trump is going to try and bully or cajole General al-Sisi to take a half a million Palestinians, he does not understand what you just articulated, nor will he hear it from his advisors.
I'm sorry to be...
Returning to that same theme.
Well, maybe, but maybe he doesn't believe that.
You know, we have to understand something.
If you go back through history and you look at leaders of great powers, much like Donald Trump, they have a bad habit of overestimating their own capabilities, underestimating the capabilities of other potential adversaries, and exceeding the limits of their power.
I think right now that is exactly what President Trump is doing.
He's dangerously exceeding the limits of American power and influence.
And he's doing it in a way that is very harmful to us.
Set Israel aside right now.
I'm talking about Israel.
I'm talking about the United States of America, its position in the world and its influence.
We have poisoned the Middle East in a way that no one ever thought possible.
And we'll see oil go to $90, $100 a barrel overnight if things fall apart, as I think they will.
As soon as the fighting begins, we'll watch our stock market crash and we'll see our own economy suffer.
And people are all going to stand around in the United States who are not paying any attention to any of this and say, well, what happened?
What happened?
And you try to explain to them that Donald Trump overreached, underestimated and overreached, and now we're in a lot of trouble.
They're not going to believe it because Trump has conveyed the impression that we are all powerful.
The Arabs are essentially sheep who can be herded in whatever direction he and Mr. Netanyahu want to drive them, and no one in the world cares.
No one in the world is interested.
There was a short statement he made in a conversation, I think it was in the Oval Office.
Somebody said, well, Saudi Arabia is subjected to this or that or something, and then he said, well, it doesn't matter.
All right, we'll do it ourselves.
I mean, this kind of attitude...
Is dangerous to our long-term interests.
And then you have Russia and China and India and a host of other countries who are watching from the sidelines.
And if anybody thinks they're all going to sit quietly and let us support the Israelis, bludgeon people in the Middle East that the Israelis don't like, they're very much mistaken.
If Israel and Egypt are at war, do you expect the United States would become involved?
Absolutely. How could we not become involved?
We are obligated, for all intents and purposes, thanks to Mr. Trump, to support the Israelis in whatever they do.
And the Egyptians, they field a very large force.
It's vulnerable to air power because their air and missile defenses are not all that sophisticated.
But if you add us to the equation, whatever is in the Sinai could be taken under fire by us very quickly.
I don't know.
It's dangerous.
It's very dangerous.
We haven't even talked about Jordan.
Jordan could erupt overnight.
And if the 11.2 million Palestinians are suddenly able to arm themselves, It's going to take a lot of effort to keep them from overrunning Israel.
We haven't even talked about the Turks.
And you remember a few weeks ago, this crowd of young Turks was yelling at the top of their lungs, take us to Jerusalem, take us to Jerusalem.
And finally, Mr. Erdogan calmed everyone down and said, stop.
And then he said, patience will deliver victory.
He didn't say no.
He didn't say we're not going.
He said, patience will deliver victory.
Do you think that Donald Trump has a vision of American empire and it can be extended?
Well, apparently he has a vision of unrestricted commitment to whatever Israel wants to do.
That much we see because otherwise he continues to give evidence for being interested in disengaging from this thing we call the empire.
He said that before about Europe.
He feels that way about Asia.
I know he does.
He's expressed it.
Now, Middle East is obviously different as far as he's concerned.
Israel is different.
And I also don't think he understands that Israel is viewed within the framework of the entire region by everybody who lives there as an artificial construct.
It is not a natural development.
It's something that was implanted under the British Empire and has never fully assimilated and never tried to assimilate.
In any way, shape, or form into the region.
If you look at that and then you look at what's been going on right now, it is impossible to think that we will avoid between now and March at some point a major regional war that will inevitably bring everybody in.
You say March.
You mean the next month.
March is two and a half weeks away.
Yes. I think these meetings that are being held now are very important.
And the men that are attending them, Abdullah and Sisi, are very important.
And when Sisi goes back, he's extremely close to MBS, Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince.
And he will report in great detail what he hears, what is offered, and what is rejected.
And I think at that point there will be some decisions made by the Emirates as well as Saudi Arabia that will affect everybody in the region.
And we will find that we are up against a...
An alliance that has finally coalesced across the whole place.
Eventually, we have the war with Iran.
And the Iranians are now walking around in despair because they've concluded that whatever they hoped might work with Trump won't.
I mean, the champagne bottles are popping in Washington and I think in Israel because they think they've finally turned a corner and that this war for Jewish supremacy is going to be won.
And ultimately, they will rule over the region.
I don't.
I think it hasn't even begun yet.
And it's not going to end well for anybody.
Colonel McGregor, thank you very much.
As gloomy as all of this is, your analysis is deeply, deeply appreciated.
I wish it could make its way into the Oval Office.
I know somebody there watches this program.
Perhaps whoever it is will say to the man in the Oval Office, would you listen to Doug McGregor for a little while?
I'm not saying that to flatter you.
We are dear friends, but your analysis needs to be heard in that way.
Well, you know, Judge, the other part of this, and Steve Bannon made a comment along these lines.
He's won this election.
He has set in motion several important forces inside our country.
That's where we need to focus right now.
We're trying to recover from disastrous policies inside our own country over the last four-plus years.
That's where he needs to focus.
He'll put all of that at risk if he is distracted by these wars.
And we cannot view what happens in Ukraine as completely distant and unconnected to what's going on in the Middle East.
The opportunity to reach good agreements for a future security architecture in Europe.
Would be a wonderful foundation for something other than Armageddon in the Middle East.
But we're not getting that.
And that's why I'm worried about the Armageddon outcome.
The other thing is that I think we need to understand that presidents usually get the advice they want.
I have to be blunt about that.
Yes, yes.
So just because we think we're right, or you do, And, you know, both of us, I was a very strong Trump supporter.
I still am.
But it doesn't make any difference.
He's made his mind up.
He's committed to a certain group of people that are in charge.
And he is now theirs.
And they are guiding him down this path, and he thinks it's a righteous one.
Donald, thank you very much, my dear friend.
Sure. Deeply appreciated.
We look forward to seeing you next week.
All the best.
Right. Thanks.
Sure. Wow.
A little startling, the strength with which the colonel fears and feels that war is imminent.
But thank God he's warning us.
Tomorrow, Wednesday, Aaron Maté at noon, Phil Giraldi at three, and midnight in Moscow, Pepe Escobar at four.
Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom.
▲
Export Selection