All Episodes
Previous Next
Dec. 12, 2024 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
30:29
INTEL Roundtable w/ Johnson & McGovern : Weekly Wrap
| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
Hi, everyone.
Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Friday, December 13, 2024.
It's the end of the day.
It's the end of the week.
It's our favorite time.
It's our Intelligence Community Roundtable with Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern.
They'll be with us in just a moment.
But first, this.
McGovern, Larry Johnson, welcome to Hear My Difference.
Thank you for playing such a significant role.
I mean it sincerely more than anyone else because of the double duty that you both do in helping us to achieve that 500,000 subscriber goal two weeks before Christmas.
A heartfelt thanks from me to thee.
We have to do all of this in person one day.
Not sure where or how or how we'll pay for it, but we're going to make it happen.
Hey, I got a look at CNN's Christmas wish list, and I thought they said, please let us get Judge Knapp's numbers, please.
It's funny you should say that, Larry, because yesterday when we announced this and ran this same clip prior to, say, Matt Ho being on with us, some of the viewers wrote in the same thing and said,
CNN is jealous.
They probably are.
We just look at the numbers.
Larry, what do we know now, Friday, that we didn't know the last time we discussed this on Monday about the ouster of President Assad in Syria, whether it's the Turks, whether it's Russian indifference,
whether it's the Americans, whether it's the Israelis?
Yeah, I think Alistair Crook has got really the best information on it.
And what we now know is both Russia and Iran knew this was coming.
And they did everything they could to try to warn Assad, to help Assad, and Assad rejected it.
And one of the motivations for rejecting the Russian and Iranian offers of help...
Is that he had been brought back into the Arab League of Nations.
And so being part of the Arab League was now important to him.
And there was pressure from within some of those members to distance himself from Russia and Iran.
Well, you know, he played that out.
I think in contrast to the propaganda that emanates from Washington, D.C. Neither Russia nor Iran are the type of countries that are going to go in and run subversion campaigns like a color revolution or bring in outside insurgents in order to overthrow the government.
Now people say, well, what about Ukraine?
Well, Ukraine poses a direct threat to Russia.
And up to this point, we've seen, you know, Iran's been pretty open about its support for Hezbollah and for Hamas with respect to helping them establishing Palestinian homeland.
And let's not forget that when it comes to funding Hamas, one of the biggest funders was Israel.
So, you know, it does get to be messy out there because, you know, what we also know for certain.
Joe Biden came out and admitted it.
The United States, along with the Brits, were actively involved in planning this overthrow of Assad by funding, arming, training jihadist insurgents, terrorists,
the very same terrorists, at least genealogically, in terms of their ideology, that attacked America on 9-11.
Before we get into the moral and legal issues of America funding terrorists, Ray, was Assad and was his government CIA assets for intelligence purposes?
Bashar al-Assad?
Yes.
I would imagine there were some agents within that government.
The government itself was pretty much against everything that the U.S. government was doing ever since that revolution or the Arab Spring went into Syria in 2011.
In other words, Assad was well aware that we're out to remove him.
Obama was very open in saying Assad has to go.
So if you're asking whether some intelligence agents, I imagine there may have been.
But in terms of the government itself, now they knew that their goose was cooked unless the Russians came in, unless there was a countervailing force to preserve Bashar al-Assad's government.
And that turned out to be the case until just three weeks ago when the army cut and ran.
And the Russians said, well, We know when to hold them and we know when to fold them.
We're folding them now.
This game ain't worth the candle.
These people aren't able to defend themselves.
Let's get out of Dodge.
Larry, what are the moral and legal implications of the Central Intelligence Agency and MI6 funding and training?
Terrorists who cut people's heads off and cut their hands off, particularly when these very terrorist groups have been denominated as terrorist groups by U.S. State Department and the British Foreign Ministry, and when there's a bounty of $10 million on the head of this terrorist organization.
People are in jail in America.
Because they participated in FBI stings and thought they were providing material assistance to terrorist organizations.
And here we have your former colleagues actually doing so.
Yeah.
Hey, there's no morality here, Judge.
It's immoral.
There's not some objective standard like we're going to follow the law of God or that we're going to follow any law.
It's called the law of expediency.
You know, the United States policy, we like to, you know, when we bamboozle the American public, we always like to dress it up in the freedom and democracy suit.
And, oh, we're promoting democracy and human rights.
Let's not forget those human rights.
Those are important, too.
But then we go back through our history.
You know, Saddam Hussein was once an asset of the CIA.
Right.
Manuel Noriega once was an asset of the CIA.
Right.
Muammar Gaddafi became an asset of the CIA.
He willingly turned over all of his chemical weapons.
He thought he had to deal with us.
The United States is about as untrustworthy as a copperhead snake.
And it's like that old joke about the...
You know, two animals, two insects getting across, trying to cross a river.
And one said to the scorpion, promise not to sting me?
Yeah, no, I won't.
Climb on or we'll get across.
And midstream stings them and they both drowned.
And the drowning animal says, why'd you do that?
He said, I couldn't help myself.
I'm a scorpion.
Well, that's what the United States is.
The United States, in my view, has become a predatory entity.
And it is not guided by any kind of morality.
And so that's why Jelani and his crowd were killing Americans, for God's sake.
But we're going, ah, never mind.
Those Americans weren't important.
Eh, let them die.
It doesn't change.
We've got immediate interest here at heart.
What we're trying to do is ultimately create a block of weakness along the southern frontier of Russia.
So that we could destroy Russia.
This is about, we're like ravenous insects.
And I use also the other imagery of a predatory rapist.
But unfortunately, that's what the United States has become.
Ray, do individual CIA, it doesn't have to just be CIA, American intelligence officers have qualms about this?
Do they worry that they might be prosecuted criminally by another administration?
For providing material aid to a terrorist organization?
Do they have, like our friend John Kiriakou, moral qualms about this stuff?
In answer to those three questions, Judge, no, no, and no.
Particularly if they want to advance their careers.
You know, the people on the operations side of the House, I know a few that had consciences.
They either quit or they came over and became analysts.
These people do what they're told.
It's like a paramilitary.
In part, it is a paramilitary organization.
And for the good of the country, they'll follow orders.
They'll do whatever the director tells them to do.
And the director, of course, is empowered to tell them to do anything that the president tells the director to tell them to do.
Witness the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines, for example.
And the fact that Europe is suffering heavily, heavily because of that.
Ray, is it more likely than not that CIA and MI6 knew that the Israeli Hezbollah ceasefire was a deception and that Assad would be gone in a week?
I don't know about, well, not that Assad would be gone in a week, that's for sure.
That was a surprise to everyone, I believe.
With respect to the ceasefire, the truce, so-called, I'm sure that American diplomats, American case officers, American CIA people knew about that.
Otherwise, they're not worth their salt.
With the UK, I just can't speak for the UK.
They're sometimes not as well plugged in as we are.
But yeah, the whole thing, as it evolved, bears all the earmarks of the well-coordinated attack.
The only fly in the ointment being that Turkish troops were in the vanguard and now Erdogan finds himself hopelessly overextended.
I just don't know what Erdogan's going to do when he realizes that he's bit off more than he can chew.
Larry, talk to us about the Turks.
I mean, we know that Erdogan's immortal enemy, in his own mind, is the Kurds.
We also know that the United States, which, as you just pointed out, does not hesitate to abandon and turn on its allies, nevertheless has a longstanding alliance with the Kurds.
What happens next?
Well, understand that Erdogan's motivations, you know, these goes back more than a century.
You know, my understanding is at the end of World War I, parts of Syria were parts, originally had been parts of Turkey in the Ottoman Empire, and they were stripped away from Turkey, given back to Syria.
So that's been sort of a long-standing rub and point of contention between the two.
So this move by Erdogan, He had his own motivations.
Let's understand what the United States and the Brits were doing in helping to facilitate this overthrow of Assad.
Again, we talked about it.
It goes back more than a decade.
The U.S. and Britain were doing this for the purposes of trying to stabilize Israel, weaken Russia.
That wasn't Turkey's motivation.
Turkey's motivation is to recover the Ottoman Empire, extend Turkey's control.
But the problem that the Turks now have, people saw this, oh, this is a blow to Russia, this hurt Russia, this hurt Iran.
You know what?
Syria is not on the border of Russia.
Syria is not on the border of Iran.
Syria sits on the border of Turkey, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel in particular.
Those are the countries that are going to be faced with refugee flows, with terrorist attacks back and forth across those frontiers, with smuggling activities.
There's not going to be a ruling government authority, a central authority.
And unfortunately, Erdogan has hooked himself to a band of mercenaries.
A lot of these HTS, the Hayat Harir al-Sham fighters, They're not Turks.
They're Uyghurs out of China.
They're Uzbeks.
They're Dagestanis, people from the different stands that sit south of Russia.
And so these are foreigners.
They're not coming into the territories of Aleppo and Idlib to rule.
And to provide the Syrians that live there with the necessities of life to make sure that they've got food and water and medical care.
So what we're looking at is Turkey has now created a chaos for itself that it's going to be struggling mightily to try to contain.
Ray, as we speak, are the Israelis stealing Syrian real estate?
Yeah, but they have every right to defend themselves, Judge.
Come on.
Thank you, Tony Blinken.
Look, you know, they feel threatened by Syria.
That's traditionally why they have helped to inculcate total chaos in Syria, not only to prevent the delivery of arms to Hezbollah, But also just to have chaos because as was explained to Americans and appeared in the New York Times,
their wished for outcome in Syria back in 2013 and today is total chaos with the Shia and the Sunnis and the other rabid or moderate or really bad rebels fighting each other to the point where they provide No threat to Israel.
That was explicitly stated on September 6, 2013.
Lead article in the New York Times.
Look it up.
Now, what about now?
Well, now they are expanding not only their control over the Golan Heights, which by all international law belongs to Syria.
They're going into Syria proper and bombing the hell out of every military facility they see in Syria.
Now, the defense, of course, is, oh, wait a second.
Syria is a threat to Israel, and so every country has the right to defend themselves, right?
Well, let me just make a kind of a noxious comparison.
There was another country that went into Ukraine, right?
And they felt very threatened by the establishment of NATO infrastructure, NATO trained troops for the last seven years, NATO armed troops, and they tried to get out of it by creating a treaty, and they had no takers of the treaty.
They went into Ukraine because every country has the right to defend themselves.
Now, the comparison is not exact, but the principle is, you know, when one country feels...
A real threat, and it's a superpower.
It's going to bash the other country if it feels threatened by it.
And we didn't recognize that.
We thought the Russians were bluffing, okay?
And so they went in.
That's the story of Ukraine.
That's what's now being used as a subterfuge to justify, in quotes, Israel taking still more territory from Syria.
I want to play a clip for you both.
First to you, Larry.
This is Jake Sullivan earlier today crowing, although he looks rather unhappy.
He's dressed like an undertaker yet again.
That Israel is stronger and Iran is weaker.
Cut number two.
The balance of power in the Middle East has changed significantly and not in the way that Sinwar or Nasrullah or Iran had planned.
We are now faced with a dramatically reshaped Middle East in which Israel is stronger, Iran is weaker, its proxies decimated, and a ceasefire that is new and will be lasting in Lebanon that ensures Israel's security over the long term.
The purpose of my visit today has been to continue to build on this progress, to ensure that that ceasefire sticks and is fully enforced, to capitalize on the opportunity of the fall of Assad For a better future for the people of Syria,
while vigilantly managing the risks that come with the change in Syria, including the possibility and the risk that terrorist groups like ISIS are able to take advantage and create new threats against the United States, Israel, and other countries in the region and around the world.
That was a misspoke.
That was yesterday.
Is the man capable of telling the truth, Larry Johnson?
No, and he's divorced from reality.
Look, number one, the United States withdraws aid today.
Israel collapses like a cheap tent in a sandstorm, okay?
So Israel's stronger.
Israel's more isolated than ever before.
Israel's not on path to sign off on diplomatic agreements with Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia has made it clear, no, we're not moving forward on that until you sign an agreement, until you make certain of a Palestinian state, number one.
Oh, Iran's weakened?
Yeah.
Iran now has a security arrangement, a military cooperation arrangement with Russia, formally signed.
They also have an informal agreement with the Chinese.
Iran is now part of BRICS and is moving away from the Western-controlled sanctions and interacting with the other countries of the Global South.
Iran has been very careful in formulating a response to Israel.
To not act impetuously and to do things that would potentially alienate its support that it has acquired and has grown among the Global South.
So this is more of mistaken beliefs, not only a part of Sullivan.
I mean, the Israelis, I bet you, they really truly believe that they've weakened Iran.
What they don't count on is the likelihood that in response to what took place in Syria, I believe Iran is now going to accelerate its move to secure a nuclear weapon.
In the past they weren't going to do that.
They wanted to find a negotiated way out.
But I think they now realize there's no negotiating with these predators that are represented by the United States who enables countries like Israel to break every international rule in the book.
Will the Israelis, Ray McGovern, The Israeli Air Force is reported to be preparing for potential strikes on Iran.
Let me go back to Jacob Jeremiah Sullivan.
A Zionist through and through who said, and I wrote it down here, our objective is to ensure Israel's security for the longer term and to allow us all to capitalize and take advantage of the recent downfall of Bashar al-Assad.
Well, how are you going to capitalize?
How are you going to take advantage of that?
What was the rationale behind these reports in the Times of Israel just now?
I think that the Israelis will be so heady that they will be sorely tempted to go after Iran.
The problem is that the Iranians have missilery that cannot be defended against.
So you're going to have a regional war there.
If the Israelis do this, the Israelis will want us to come in and bail them out.
And Biden, Jacob Jeremiah Sullivan, and Antony Blinken, Zionists to the core, will be tempted to get involved before they leave office on the 20th of January.
Good God, Larry.
Will these Zionists to the core that control American foreign policy And whose presidency was soundly rejected, soundly and roundly rejected by the voters last month, actually engage us in a war at this point in Biden's presidency?
Highly likely.
You know, Judge, I can't emphasize enough the belief, it's a sincere belief, on the people like Jack Keane.
Heavens, even I think Donald Trump shares the belief.
I'm certain that Jake Sullivan, Anthony Blinken all believe it.
That Iran is weak.
Iran is on the ropes.
Iran, you know, the same thing we've been hearing about Russia.
Because they continue to insist, oh man, Russia's been weakened.
You heard Joe Biden say that the other day.
Oh boy, yeah, Russia's been weakened.
You know, what's evidence of that weakness?
Well, they're having to use North Korean troops in Kursk.
Now, we don't have a single piece of evidence whatsoever.
That there are any North Koreans fighting and curse.
But that's become the narrative.
That's become the meme.
And people seize on it and believe it.
And, you know, it's a little bit like once, you know, we're coming into the Christmas season and there are parents with three and four-year-old kids that convince them, well, Santa Claus is real.
And, you know, kids have a lot of fun with that.
And then they get older and they find out Santa Claus is not real.
But that's the problem in the West.
Their vision of Santa Claus is that Iran is weak.
Russia's weak, therefore we can do whatever because there's nothing they can do to stop us.
And when we do that, we're going to run into a brick wall.
And particularly if the United States decides to...
Because what will happen is if Israel launches this attack, its planes will be shot down.
If they venture into Iranian airspace, they will be shot down.
And at that point...
They're going to be crying for help.
And if the United States decides to intercede, then the United States is going to lose air and naval assets.
And if that happens under Donald Trump's watch, you know, Trump's presidency then just goes up in smoke because everything that he promised his voters, he will have reversed himself on.
Ray, I'll give you the last word on all of this, please.
Well, I think the backdrop for all of this, Judge, is the alliance between Russia and China.
Both have very deep concerns about what happens in Iran and in the Middle East and the Red Sea and so forth.
So they have a virtual alliance with Iran at this point, and Iran's part of BRICS.
So if there's a war, a regional war, The Russians will have real trouble staying out of it because they will be trying to support the Iranians in every way possible.
They will be circumspect, but they will be there.
The Chinese?
Well, I'm sure that Xi Jinping, invited to the White House for the inauguration and celebration, is saying to Mr. Trump right now...
Can I bring my friend Vlad around?
His full name is Vladimir Putin.
If we can both come, then I'd like to come.
That's how serious this is.
The balance of forces has changed.
Politics 101.
You've got a different situation here.
I hope that somebody is close enough to Trump to tell him we can't work our will in the world the way we used to.
And the worst thing you can possibly do is get us involved in defense of Israel against the rest of the world.
End of story.
I know I said I was going to give Ray the last word, but Larry Ray reminds me that the characters with whom Trump surrounds himself, these are the ones that are going to have his ear.
Marco Rubio, Michael Waltz, Sebastian Gorka.
I mean, this does not bode well for peace in this part of the world, does it, Larry?
No, you don't have anybody willing to say, hey, let's step back.
Let's pose a counter-narrative.
Let's say, wonderful, all of our assumptions are false.
You know, we assume that Iran's weak.
Let's consider and entertain the possibility that Iran's not weak, that Iran is strong and capable of defending itself.
With that new piece of information, Does that change our calculations?
Well, it absolutely should.
And that's the concern that between Marco Rubio and Waltz and Pete Hegseth, in particular Sebastian Gorka, you don't have anybody there with the maturity and experience to suggest that kind of alternative thinking.
And that's what's needed in this case, if nothing else, just to step out of your box and take a look at it from a different perspective.
Right, right.
Ray, what about our friend Tulsi Gabbard?
You read my mind here.
I read your mind.
She's the exception to the rule.
She's under heavy fire.
Professor Timothy Snyder.
Oh, Snyder and company do not want her to be confirmed by the Senate.
We know that.
Whoa, whoa.
He says that she's defended people using chemical weapons, and she's the opposite of qualified.
I've challenged him to a debate, by the way.
We did a debate 10 years ago, right after the coup in Kiev.
And he said, well, what evidence do you have?
That was a coup.
And I said, well, two and a half weeks before the coup, Victoria Newland and Ambassador of Hyatt were talking about who would take over.
And he said, you know what he said?
Is that all you got?
So I'm asking Amy if she'll let us out again.
No response from either Timothy or Amy.
I want to say one more thing, and if I remember it now, what Larry was saying here, no, I don't remember it, but it was really good, so tune in next week.
All right.
Thank you, guys.
Thank you for helping us, as always.
A long week.
Thank you for helping us, more than anybody, the two of you, to reach this goal of 500,000 subscribers onward and upward, as friends of mine have been saying to me all day.
Have a great weekend.
We'll see you Monday morning.
All the best.
Thank you.
Thanks, Judge.
Sure.
Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom.
▲
Export Selection