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Nov. 12, 2023 - Jim Fetzer
58:38
Real Deal Special (12 November 2023) with Mazin Qumsiyeh
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Fetzer, your host on A Real Deal interview with a phenomenal reporter on what's going on in Gaza and Israel, Masem Kansaya.
Masem, I'm just astonished.
Reviewing your latest, you make it so absolutely crystal clear, just as you say the Israelis are making it crystal clear that genocide is their intention.
You lay it out in such Plain and obvious language is impossible to miss.
Let me just share with our audience by way of background.
Israel's genocide of Gaza is intentional, planned, and ongoing with no sign of slowing down.
The contrary.
With no water, food, and medicine, it's accelerating.
Israeli leaders boast openly that they do not care about what the UN says or what real leaders say.
Israeli fascist leaders say they do not care what statements are issued by governments of Muslim and Arab countries, nor do they care if public pressure causes some Western leaders to moderate their language from unconditional support of Israel to show concern for the humanitarian catastrophe unfolding in Gaza.
Without naming the perpetrator, Israel actually can use a humanitarian catastrophe as If it were an act of God, not their agency as bargaining chip.
Israel can offer pauses in the slaughter in exchange for further weapons from Western countries and for release of Israeli prisoners.
Maybe even a temporary ceasefire and fuel to any remaining hospitals in exchange for additional support to continue their genocidal occupation and for impunity for facing tribunal for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
There it is in a nutshell, Maison.
You just have a way with language.
I'm profoundly impressed and grateful for your reporting.
Well, I mean, thank you James for having me on your show and letting me speak.
I mean, the situation is very, very dire.
You know now one child dies every 10 minutes.
You know.
A woman giving birth without any kind of medical care.
Babies dying because the incubator stopped functioning as there's no electricity, no oxygen for people that need it, no dialysis for dialysis patients.
So they're dying of blood poisoning, cancer patients not getting any of their medications.
They don't even have morphine to dull the pain as they die in agony.
People going back to like medieval eras where there's no anesthesia and no treatments.
So they chop off legs.
And do amputations because to save somebody's life, but then to save them for what they need food and drink.
And there's no food and drink allowed into 2.3 million people.
The US has a tokenism of a few trucks that would be Berlin, as the UN said, drop in the ocean.
For what is needed in terms of sustaining 2.3 million people.
So literally people are dying in the hundreds daily and the world is watching and observing as.
This is not even more bizarre thing as the US and Western governments send weapons to Israel to continue the slaughter to replenish their white phosphorus.
And they're, you know, depleted uranium shells, one ton shells that they're dropping on residential areas.
Already half of Gaza's residential buildings have been demolished.
This is carpet bombing, basically.
Even during the Second World War, it never reached the stage where you have blockade of an entire population Starving them to death and denying medical aid.
The health care system is collapsing.
So yeah, the situation is very horrific and many of us even.
I'm in the West Bank in Bethlehem, which is another concentration camp.
Gaza is a concentration camp being annihilated.
We're in a concentration camp.
On the list to be annihilated when they haven't reached to us yet, but they did blockade Bethlehem and they are coming into Bethlehem and killing some people and another areas like Jeanine in the West Bank.
They come in and demolish homes and destroy streets and infrastructure.
This is all happening with US direct support.
As I said, with money and weapons, the US gives Israel more.
Money than what the U.S.
gives to Africa and Latin America combined.
So anyway, this is the situation and many of us can't sleep even thinking about it.
So we can imagine the people in Gaza who are hungry for weeks.
And are drinking dirty and polluted waters and sometimes even seawater and they are not doing too well.
Yes, I've been emphasizing in my reporting on the situation since a blockade was imposed on the 8th of October with no food, no water, no fuel, no electricity.
Some of the consequences of which you are describing here with regard to dialysis incubators and the like the rule of threes that human beings can exist for three minutes without air three days without water three weeks without food it's clear to me.
The starvation of the Gazan population is the ultimate solution here.
They want to find any way to remove Palestinians from Palestine, a land they've occupied for 3,000 years, whereas the Israelis have been here for 75.
Most of the population isn't even derived from the tribe of Judah, but rather these are from the Ukrainian area, Zakarians.
I mean, it's just outrageous what's taking place here.
So they don't even have a genetic claim to this land.
In my opinion, the Balboa Declaration, which, by the way, included the necessity to respect the rights of the indigenous population, Has been grotesquely abrogated from the beginning, where the original Jewish settlers were raping and pillaging galore without restraint.
I find the whole situation completely indefensible morally, politically, legally.
The United States clearly an accomplice to genocide.
There is no way around it.
And I thus Await action by Arab Muslim states to come to the defense of Gaza.
How do you see it?
Is there a game plan that you can discern even in vague outline?
Is Turkey going to take a leading role, for example?
Is there a solution here that will save a population before every last Palestinian is dead?
Well, first we have to realize that many of those countries that we now call Arabic and Islamic countries were basically their borders were delineated in a divide and conquer idea by the British and the French when they were giving up the world even before the First World War.
When they drew the borders like Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, etc.
In agreements like Sykes-Picot Agreement between the French and the British, and they set up dictatorships in those countries that are subservient to Western imperialism.
And the US took on this mantle of imperialism in the Middle East.
Since then, so it's been over 100 years of of Western, you know, creations that are like the Saud royal family and what's now called Saudi Arabia dictatorship that's run by, you know, British and American appointed rulers.
So I don't hold much hope.
For these countries in terms of I mean, the Republic are with us, of course, like the public in the West is with us, but the governments are not.
I mean, the public in the US is with us.
The public in Europe is with human rights, but the governments in those countries are largely controlled by the Zionist movement, which which tells them to do certain things.
They do it.
It doesn't matter.
Uh, so it's really sad, but this is the state of world affairs in terms of power politics and how it shapes out.
I mean, we still have hope that we move to a multipolar world and.
And finished with this American century that that had created so many wars and conflicts around the world.
There's Martin Luther King said once.
That the US is the biggest purveyor of violence in the world.
Whether it's in Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, Syria, Iraq, you know, Yemen, Libya, all these invasions and destructions and Palestine, of course, thanks to a government that really is willing to spend billions of dollars for the State of Israel while it cannot find money for daycare.
Uh, centers in the US, uh, who are now reeling and healthcare or anything else.
But anyway, I mean, this is, this is the way politics is and unfortunately the way the world is.
If, if, and this is a big if, if China and Russia and Brazil and other countries, uh, finally assert their role in the world, big, big countries, And we move to a multilateral world, multipolar world, I should say.
Then I think there is hope for us to end genocides and end wars.
If not, we are in deep, deep trouble.
We could go to a world war now with nuclear weapons being used.
Yes, I think that's all too likely to occur.
Isabella has.
Of course, defeated Israel before in Lebanon, and I believe could make a major contribution, but I suspect the fear is that if they enter, that Beirut is going to be nuked by Israel once they begin using their vast arsenal of nuclear weapons.
I think that the situation spins wildly out of control.
I do not know if Iran possesses any nuclear weapons, though I've been told they may have acquired them.
I have thought it would be good for them to possess, to introduce an era of mutually assured destruction into the Middle East like that which prevailed between the United States and the USSR for the duration from the end of the Middle War to the Disillusion of the Soviet Union in 1991, which actually was an instrument of stability.
Both sides knew they could annihilate the other, and therefore they did not have a disposition to attack one another.
But now all the arms control agreements of the past have been forfeited.
The United States is cancelled or withdrawn from one after another.
The Russians, recognizing its Not in their interest to have one arm tied behind their back and dealing with an unscrupulous opponent like the United States.
They have acknowledged that if there is an attack on Russia that threatens its existence, they're going to go all out with a massive attack and their weapons are far superior to those of the West, as has been displayed on a lesser scale in Ukraine, where the
Cause for the Kazarians to return to the original Gaza area as the new Israel has been defeated by Russia, notwithstanding all the Western efforts to pump them up with most weapons and the most money.
Nevertheless, they have lost.
I think it's increasingly obvious, which in my opinion is motivated at least in large part.
The desire to cleanse the former lands of Palestine so they could belong exclusively to the Jewish community there, even though they are descendants of Khazarians and not of Hebrews, and that the removal of Gaza also appears to be
Affectuated in order to build the Ben Gurion Canal that would go right through Gaza as an alternative to the Suez, so Israel can reap billions of dollars in shipping fees and the like.
That requires the destruction of Gaza, which is taking place systematically through the bombings.
But also, of course, the Israeli government is already leased, you know, to big oil companies the right to Explore oil and gas reserves that belong to Gaza, the Palestinian people.
I mean, what's going on here is far beyond grand theft.
I mean, mass murder.
It is the most blatant and obvious human rights violation, perhaps in world history.
In my opinion, it's difficult to find a comparable case.
Your thoughts.
Well, indeed, there are some peculiarities about the situation.
I mean, we had genocide in history before Holocaust before, like the Congo by the Belgian King Leopold, like the Armenian Holocaust, like in Rwanda, like what happened with the Nazis in Germany and with gypsies, Jews and communists, etc.
that were killed in large numbers.
So history had a lot of examples of the horrors of what humans can do to other human beings.
But there is some peculiarities to this one.
I'll cite you four simple peculiarities.
Number one, and perhaps the most important, is this is happening live.
Basically, people could go and watch it live happening.
This didn't happen ever in the previous genocides.
That you could actually see people being murdered, being killed in their own homes, being bombed in their own homes.
White phosphorus dropped on residential areas on refugee camps, etc.
and see it in real life footage as it's happening.
This is very peculiar in world history of genocides.
The second peculiarity about this.
Is the fact that the perpetrators.
Uh, utilize an excuse that they were subjected to such horrors before, and supposedly they are the victims.
So as such, they're entitled to do whatever they want to, and they weaponize anti Semitism and any kind of attempt to criticize Israel for its genocide of the Palestinians is labeled as hate speech or as somehow hating Jews.
Which is kind of ironic because actually hundreds of Jews are being arrested for precisely objecting to this genocide.
They were arrested in halls of Congress and Grand Central Park station in New York, etc.
And then congressman's offices and and governor's offices.
Jews are speaking out.
Saying not in our name, you should not repeat the genocide in our name, etc.
So that's the second kind of peculiar feature of this.
The third peculiar feature I find very disturbing.
Is that the Western governments which created the post World War Two system of supposed international law and UN systems and conventions, etc.
There's even a convention against the crime of genocide.
There's the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Both Israel blatantly violates every provision of those things.
Anyway, those Western governments that created this system, that set up this system, seem to totally dismantle this system when it comes to Israel.
And to support Israel, right or wrong, as one of the leaders said, we are with Israel no matter what they do.
And we hold their back.
And we got your back.
And so go ahead and go and kill.
Not only go and kill, What do you need from us?
You need more weapons?
We're happy to supply more weapons, more white phosphorus, even though it's illegal to use in residential areas.
The US supplies it.
$14 billion US supplies it.
Whatever you want, we are willing to give as a government of the United States.
That's the third and very, very peculiar.
I mean, in history of genocides, I don't think the Belgians in Congo received a lot of support.
The fourth peculiar thing I find about this is in this era of interconnectivity, there's a global uprising that's happening against this, which didn't happen, for example, for the Rwandan genocide or for the Belgian genocide, simply because the technology was not there.
Now the technology is there, so millions of people end up in the streets.
Millions of people are not duped by the control of information that happens through this Orwellian world that we live in, with the mainstream media basically controlling dissemination of lies after lies after lies.
One of my messages was actually focused On just a glimpse of those lies that designers do that that are proven wrong lies, including about what happened October 7th.
And you know, everybody knows now that they lie about everything, including the idea of beheaded babies, raping woman, all this stuff that they keep saying that Islam hates Jews, that this is about Jews and Judaism.
All these lies have been disproven wrong, disproven as basically talking points, Zionist talking points, and they have not been disproven by just simply saying they're wrong, but by actual facts and figures and numbers and videos and so on, even from Israeli sources.
Perhaps we could add one more aspect of this genocide that's kind of peculiar.
Also a fifth point, and that is that the perpetrators were not shy about it.
You know the Nazis tried to hide some of what they did.
The Zionists are not hiding it.
They are boasting about it.
They are very proud of it.
When the Minister of Defense said we're denying water, electricity and food and everything, not one ounce of medicine goes there because we are dealing with human animals.
This is his words.
This is a minister, sub Minister of Army of the State of Israel.
Or when the president of the State of Israel says there are no civilians in Gaza, everybody is responsible.
This is the president of the state of Israel basically saying that 2.3 million people in Gaza are all guilty and should be all killed.
So they there's no shyness about.
There is not even attempt to hide what they are doing.
Yes, yes, I think those are impeccable points that do make this distinctive and I think that the modern technology communication The fact you can watch this happening in progress is a devastating blow to those who are perpetrating these crimes if they think that the world does not know.
And as you observe, of course, they're being very open about their intention.
The question becomes, in the midst of such a public massacre of an ancient population, Is the world going to respond appropriately?
Will there be an effort to put down this mad dog that was created in the wake of World War II, largely motivated by stories of abuse of Jews that were greatly exaggerated?
We have quite a lot of revisionist Research on the actual history of World War Two, where, for example, the International Committee of the Red Cross was keeping copious detailed records about the inmates of the various concentration camps and including their age, their sex, their religion, their ethnicity, their cause of death.
And in 1993, recalibrated their numbers to determine the total
296,081 who died from all causes combined, none of whom were put to death in gas chambers using Zyklon B, which was reinforced during a trial in Canada of a great champion of exposing the Holohooks as a mythology when Fred Lochter, the then leading expert on the
Gas chambers in the world visited several of the camps and issued a report during the second trial in 1988 that nothing at any of those camps could remotely function as a gas chamber, which Robert for us on a leading revisionist historian who has.
Documented the trial of Ernst.
Please.
I'm not here to put their vision is history for World War Two or anything.
There are horrors that happened during wars on all sides.
But there is some information that that happens that needs to be revisited on all these aspects.
But there is some aspects also that people are not familiar with.
I am not sure if your listeners care to know, but the Zionist movement actually broke the boycott of Nazi Germany.
The Zionist movement actually made an agreement with Hitler called the Havara Agreement, where they actually Hitler and the Nazi movement in Germany signed this agreement.
The Zionist flag.
With the Star of David was flying in Berlin until 1941.
The Zionists withdrew from Germany only after the US decided to enter the war against Germany because they knew then that that Nazi Germany would lose.
Until then, they were Hedging their bets and making good relations with everybody on both sides of World War Two until 1941.
This history is not known.
People don't know that, for example, Ben-Gurion was approached about saving Jewish children in Germany and Eastern Europe by bringing them to the UK.
And he pounded his hand on the table and he said, not one penny for those children, not one penny.
Because we should not if here here's his words if I had the chance to save all the children meaning the Jewish children in Eastern Europe by taking them to England all the children And only half of them by taking them to Eritz Israel, Palestine at the time, then I would choose the latter option because we should not put the interests of these Jewish children ahead of the interests of Zionism.
This is his words.
This is Ben Gurion in 1939.
You know who was, as I said, was working with the Nazi movement in Germany as he was working also with the with the Allied powers.
I was working on both sides, so he's to him.
Zionism was more important than Jewish children and and this is documented history when there was calls in the United States to open the doors for European refugees in general, not just Jewish refugees.
Who stood against it?
Who lobbied Congress against opening the door for Jewish refugees from Europe?
Was the Zionist Movement.
The Zionist Movement said no and people like Brandeis, there's now a university named after him, lobbied actually, lobbied Congress and lobbied the President of the US to prevent migration of Jewish children into the United States because they wanted to leave one door open for them and that is to come here and build the Jewish state and kick the Palestinians out of Palestine.
So I think history does need studying, but let's not, you know, kind of revise in one direction and say, hey, this is I'm sorry, but we have to be very careful about these things.
That is not a winning argument.
Our winning argument is wars are horrific, are horrific.
Genocide is horrific.
Genocide, by the way, is not by numbers.
It's not a matter of whether Israel kills, let's say 100,000 Palestinians, which they are there on the road to do very quickly if the rate stays the same, or whether they kill 1,000,000 Palestinians.
Genocide is defined according to intent of destroying a particular group.
I appreciate all the Distribution of emphasis you're providing here, I would make perhaps three points.
Number one, the Balfour Declaration itself includes responsibility for those who would be controlling the new state of Israel to treat the present occupants, the Palestinians, in a humane and lawful and appropriate fashion, which has clearly been violated in my judgment
The Balfour Declaration, therefore, is nullified and can no longer be cited as justification for Israel.
Go ahead.
Talk about this Balfour Declaration.
For the sake of your listeners, there was actually two declarations, the Balfour Declaration from Great Britain and the Jules Cambon Declaration from France, both in support of the Zionist movement and both with almost exactly the same language that talks about national rights for Jews in Palestine.
Establishing a national homeland for Jews and it says as you point out to respect respect what respect the religious and civil rights of the quote unquote non Jewish population.
Notice first of all, they named us as quote unquote non Jews, even though we are the native people of this land.
Number two, it says civic and religious rights, but not national rights.
Didn't allow us to have any national rights or self determination.
But the question that most people don't ask, why would Great Britain and France issue declarations in the middle of the First World War in support of Zionism?
This is an important point.
History won't teach you about this because they hid this history, but it's now available.
You can read about it because the information is declassified.
In fact, there were negotiations for six months leading to those two declarations from the great powers.
The idea of these two declarations I were issued as a quid pro quo.
The British and the French were not winning the First World War and the Zionist movement came to them and said, look, we can make you win this war against Germany and the Ottoman Empire.
If you just give us This one small piece of land called Palestine, and we want a public declaration towards that.
And the British, more than the French, were skeptical.
They said, how are you going to make us win this war?
I said, easy, we'll bring the United States into the war.
And the Zionist movement in the United States in 1916-1917 lobbied effectively to bring the United States, which was then not very interested in engaging in European wars, you know, the idea of isolationism and all this stuff.
And so they said.
Well, we can lobby them and they did lobby them successfully.
You see this?
This is an important point.
How governments work in wars and not in wars.
They are more interested in how the Zionist movement thinks.
That's what led to the US entering the First World War.
The Second World War.
We know why the US entered, but the First World War.
Most people in the United States don't understand that the Zionist movement had a very key role In getting the US into the First World War.
Oh, I think those are excellent, excellent points.
I do believe, by the way, that by this slaughter of Gazans that Israel has forfeited any claims it may have made in the past, whether historically accurate or otherwise, as I believe to victimhood.
Even if you take the official narrative.
The conduct of the Israelis toward the Palestinians is analogous to even worse than the conduct they allege the Nazis to have carried out against the Jews in Germany at the time.
I also believe that the events of October 7th, which I'm inclined to believe were allowed to happen or even carried out exclusively by the IDF, We're used to create a pseudo justification for the slaughter of Gaza and of course the eventual elimination of the West Bank as well, but shattered the illusion of Israeli invincibility.
So I think that Israel has already cost itself by virtue of its deliberate actions as I see it.
The virtue of victimhood, which has been endlessly played in the past, but has lost its veneer.
Indeed, today, I would say it's contemptible to make the claim that Israel is in any way, shape or form a victim of the ongoing atrocities taking place in Israel.
And that notion of invincibility that the IDF could not be.
Well, I mean, we have to realize that these governments always lie and always use the idea.
of course, as well as success in defeating the Israeli army in Lebanon in the past.
Your thoughts?
Well, I mean, we have to realize that these governments always lie and always use the idea.
I mean, how else do you expect them to do colonization and genocide without lying and without using the idea that they are victims, perpetual victims, etc.
They will manufacture victimhood.
I'll give you a very simple couple of examples.
The Mossad actually put bombs in front of Jewish synagogues and community centers in Iraq to scare Iraqi Jews.
The Mossad is the Israeli intelligence for the record.
They put bombs to scare Iraqi Jews into going to Palestine.
The Mossad Israeli intelligence put bombs in front of US embassy in front of British embassies in Egypt.
This is called the Levon Affair.
You can look it up.
It's now well admitted to blame them on Arab nationalists and create hatred.
So there's a lot of lies to say that.
Well, you know, look Iraqi Jews are being bombed, you know, so the Muslims must hate them or whatever this is.
This is a false flag.
Operations are are so common, you know everywhere, and I don't want to even get into the subject because I have enough obvious.
You know, massacres and so forth committed, as I said, point blank without, you know, without any hidden information or false flags or anything.
These are Israeli weapons.
Israeli airplanes dropping American weapons in refugee camps in Gaza.
Nobody can deny that we cannot call it a false flag operation.
So it is.
We have plenty of facts.
And and records and information that we can deal with.
We don't have to worry about these other things and what they have done.
There's even a talk that the Hamas itself attack on on October 7th that Israel knew about it.
And in fact, there is strong evidence that actually Netanyahu during his first, you know, terms in office had helped Hamas With funding and support.
So.
They they support some.
I mean, similar to one Ronald Reagan brought the Taliban to the White House and said these are the people who are equivalent to our founding fathers and he was helping them because they were fighting a Soviet Union.
These are radical crazy people in Afghanistan and we supported them.
American public supported them.
And once we got rid of the Soviet Union from Afghanistan, created the Vietnam for them basically to deplete the Soviet Union's resources.
And when the Soviets gave up and left Afghanistan, we left all these people there with their weapons and American training and everything.
And eventually they turned against the US.
And eventually they kicked the US out of Afghanistan.
So you see chickens come home to roost, so to speak, and and I think the US and Israel are foolish to think that their tactics.
Of claiming that this is about terrorism from some rogue groups and etc.
When they know the underlying cause is not this, just like in South Africa under apartheid.
There was violence.
There was resistance.
There was some of the resistance was very bad, and I don't want to make Palestinians look innocent and, you know, beautiful people who never do any harm.
There are Palestinians who engage in terroristic acts, you know, just like South Africans when some of them, you know, even burn people alive.
But that was not the problem.
That was a symptom of the underlying problem, which was apartheid, racism, genocide that was happening against the blacks in South Africa and is now happening against the Palestinians.
It's as simple as that.
I'm so impressed by your vast and detailed knowledge of the history of the region.
I'd like to invite your thoughts about Where things go from here, how is this going to play out?
What do you foresee is the near or even long term future of the region of the Middle East, even of world affairs in relation to what's transpiring in Gaza now?
I think we have two roads from here.
We can either continue the same road of hatred and wars and conflict
And greed, as you pointed out about the need for the gas fields off of Gaza or the need to create an alternative sewage canal to basically compete with the existing sewage canal and also provide a competing route between Asia and Europe that competes with the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative.
And this this is to be done all through military force and through pressure.
This is one road we have been there.
We have tried it.
They have.
They have been doing it in the past 75 years in our region.
Since the creation of this rogue regime of Israel, we have had dozens of wars.
Thanks to this.
We can continue down this road of endless wars and endless dehumanization.
And as I said, it's not all one sided, as you know, there's obviously also dehumanization that can happen on the other side.
So we can we can continue down this road.
And this is a lose lose situation.
We could end up with a global nuclear war and it will be the end of us.
The other road which has not been tried and we've been pushing for it.
Most Palestinians have been pushing for it, by the way, which is the road based on human rights based on equality based on.
I respect my family is Palestinian Christian family.
There are Palestinian Muslim families.
There are Palestinian Jewish families.
Baha'i, Druze, Atheists, whoever.
We respect each other.
We have diversity.
We have a secular democracy.
What is wrong with that?
For the life of me, I could never understand why people consider this somehow anathema to anything.
You know, it is common sense.
You want a peace, a roadmap to peace, take the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and implement it.
After all, it was written 1948, you know.
Right at the time that this state of Israel was created, and it's supposed to prevent the horrors of what happened in World War Two on all sides, by the way, again, you know, on all sides, you know, the carpet bombings of Dresden, the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or on that from the other sides.
All of these things can be stopped if we follow the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Geneva Conventions, which protect civilians in times of war.
But then we wouldn't have genocides.
Why is this so difficult to comprehend?
For the life of me, I could never understand American politicians who say, well, we can't ask for ceasefire.
We should let Israel finish the job.
Finish what job exactly?
Bombing refugee camps from F-16s and F-35s?
Support supplied by the US?
Is this a job?
What is the job exactly that they are trying to finish?
Hamas?
How many Hamas fighters did they kill?
I challenge you, show me the pictures.
They haven't killed many Hamas fighters.
Hamas is underground, in the tunnels.
If you want to fight them, go fight them.
Why do you have to kill the civilians in large numbers?
There's not one target that they picked.
Hospitals, schools, refugee camps, residential buildings, roads, even sewage treatment facilities and water storage tanks.
Is this about Hamas?
Is a Hamas fighter hiding in a water storage tank that supplies water to the people?
This is what I For you know, I can never comprehend the logic of even the oppressors.
OK, you want to be an oppressor.
You want the gas fields of Gaza.
But do you think that bombing civilians will help you?
What will it do?
It will create more recruits for resistance fighters.
It will recruit.
It will make Hamas very popular.
People in Gaza whose families are obliterated and there's one person left In the family, what do you expect that person to do?
He would want to get revenge.
This is the logic I don't understand.
Go with human rights or go with endless wars.
These are your choices.
One is a lose-lose scenario.
One is a win-win scenario.
You can choose, but I have made my choice.
And millions of Palestinians have made their choices and the hundreds of millions who went out into the streets in the past three weeks in the capitals of just about every country on Earth.
Even Poland, which is friendly to Israel.
Tens of thousands of people.
You know.
Even in Israel itself, there are people who are objecting they're losing their jobs because they're objecting.
So people are mobilizing in the hundreds of millions of people saying no enough enough is enough.
How much is enough?
How many children do you want to kill?
I ask Israelis, even those who disagree with me, even the Zionists.
I say to them, how many children do you think it will take to get rid of Hamas?
Please tell me.
Is it 10,000 or 100,000 children?
How many?
or 100,000 children, how many?
How many?
You know, the logic of it is just unbelievable, you know?
you Well, you are laying out rational alternatives that confront the world.
But as I see it, the Zionists are going all out.
They put all their chips in.
They are going to persevere until they remove every Palestinian from Palestine.
And it is going on now.
It is not going to stop.
Unless some force more powerful than they should intervene, it's going to continue unabated.
The slaughter, the genocide is not going to end.
They would be happy if there were a Palestinian state in Jordan, for example, or if they could deposit the residents of Gaza into the Sinai.
But Jordan and Egypt are appropriately resisting knowing full well, not only would they be unable to shoulder the burden of sustaining those populations with their own limited resources, but there will be no right of return.
Once gods and leave their home, they are permanently evicted there from.
And thus, I ask you.
Unless there's some intervening force, I see no end to the genocide, no end to the slaughter.
This is going to be complete and thorough.
They have declared their goals.
It's manifest to the entire world.
Who is going to do anything to stop it?
Well, I mean, I think if you think that the Zionists will stop at finishing off the Palestinians, I think we do not understand their ideology.
Their ideology is much more than Palestine and what they want to achieve is certainly much bigger than Palestine.
When Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel.
He went in front of the United Nations a few months ago.
He showed the map.
What he said is Israel 1948, which is not true, but.
He didn't show anything about Palestine or even mention the word Palestine or Palestinians, and then he showed another map right after that, which shows basically United Arab Emirates, the Gulf States, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, etc.
Connected all in the same color with Israel is green.
And then he drew with a thick red marker, a line going from Asia From Southeast Asia to through all this huge region, you know, the Arabian Peninsula and Jordan, Egypt and Palestine, Israel, as he called it to Europe.
This is the alternative to the Belt and Road Highway.
This is this is the ambition.
The ambition is not Palestine.
Sorry, the ambition.
Is regional hegemony by Israel on the sources of oil?
In the Middle East, but also on this very important connection.
Pathway from Europe to Asia.
In fact.
You know this what you see when Balfour wrote a letter to his successor at the Foreign Office, Lord Curzon.
He said to him.
That we support Zionism because, be it right or wrong, good or bad, this is his words, right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-old traditions and present needs, of course, for empires, for the Ottoman Empire and for Zionists.
Then the wishes and interests of the local natives who inhabit that land, local Arabs who inhabit that land.
This is his words.
And you see similar text written by Zionists themselves like Herschel.
Herschel said this is that the Jewish state in Palestine will be the rampart of Western Western influence in the Middle East and the connectivity to Asia.
So this is the plan from the beginning.
It is always been attempted to be planned, you know, implemented for the past 75 or longer years.
Actually, Zionism precedes 1948.
It precedes first, you know, Second World War or First World War.
The Zionists were there from the 1890s.
So that's their goal, and that's their interest, and they're willing to kill and murder as many as it takes to achieve it.
They haven't been very as successful as they wanted to be because here we are more than 140 years later and they still have a problem with the native people.
So I think we'll see how history plays out.
But if the direction you say about where we are going is or what I say is where we might be going.
That's the road of war and conflict and endless misery.
And I assure you that doesn't mean a Zionist win.
It means a lose-lose scenario for all of us.
Or we can take the other road, which I said is a humane, human road without violence, without wars, without conflict, without people butchering each other or whatever.
Well, you have been extremely generous to share your time with me here this morning.
I'm enormously impressed by the breadth and depth of your knowledge and understanding.
I'm forced to the conclusion that Israelis only respond to force, and unless there is military pressure, even the actual conduct of a military operation, they will not stop.
They will be unceasing.
They're dedicated.
They've gone all in here.
And frankly, I see no way out other than by way of military intervention, where if I had to guess, the most likely source will be Turkey, where the president of Turkey has already declared that Turkish soldiers will be fighting in Gaza for the Palestinians.
Your final thoughts, and I cannot Begin to tell you how much I admire you and what you are doing here, please.
Yeah, no, I disagree that military force is the only way that can happen.
I think Israel is dependent on Western aid.
If we can cut off that lifeline of destruction to them, then they will stop.
The last president, by the way, US president, who managed to curb Israel, Before the lobby got stronger was Eisenhower, who when Israel invaded the Sinai and the Gaza Strip and occupied it in 1956, he called the Prime Minister of Israel and said, I expect you to withdraw promptly from the areas you just occupied.
They reached the Suez Canal in 1956 and Israeli forces were withdrawing within Day or two with that they are totally dependent on the US.
If the US decides to have peace in the Middle East, if they cut off the aid to Israel, Israel would not be able to stand one day or one week without giving our rights back.
It's as simple as that.
I think you know.
Violence globally is not going to solve much of our problems.
And I am personally against wars because wars can lead to unforeseen circumstances that nobody wants, certainly.
And you cannot, in my opinion, you cannot bring justice or peace by using the forces of violence.
That's just my own humble opinion.
And you can disagree with me if you want, but.
I'm happy to discuss further some other time.
Well, from your perspective and location in Bethlehem, I can only say from mine here in Wisconsin that the American Congress is Israeli occupied territory.
That our Secretary of Treasury is a Zionist Jew.
Our Secretary of Homeland Security is a Zionist Jew.
Our Attorney General is a Zionist Jew.
Our Secretary of State is a Zionist Jew.
Our President is an imposter, was elected illegally as a papa to Bibi Netanyahu.
If you envision him as the American Commander-in-Chief, you'll have a more realistic appreciation of the role of the United States here.
America is not going to save Palestine.
America is a puppet of Israel at this point in time.
It's tragic.
And I wish it were not the case.
And could I do anything about it?
This war would end today because American aid would be cut off forthwith.
But it's totally unrealistic to think America is going to save Palestine.
America is all in.
America is complicit.
And it's tragic.
Because I'm afraid the fate of the world hangs in the balance.
I give to you your final thoughts.
I am a US citizen.
I just think that US public needs to get educated with facts and figures and know what is going on with their tax money and what their tax money is supporting.
And while Congress and Washington are indeed Israeli occupied, I see more voices rising up even though they censored them.
For example, Congress just censored Rashida Tlaib, a member of Congress who's a Palestinian American, simply for saying Palestine should be free.
So I think there is voices rising.
Within both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, there are voices of discontent about this supposed unbreakable bond with Israel, so I would encourage everybody, you yourself also, to get engaged more with politics, with the American political establishment, to change the dynamics, whether you're a Republican or a Democrat,
You have a lot of avenues to argue for changing and for reclaiming a future, a better America and America that cares first and foremost for its own interest, not the interest of a foreign power.
You know, who was it who warned us about this?
Actually, you know, look at George Washington's speech.
Farewell speech.
And how he's talked about, you know, we have to guard against a foreign government having undue influence in the US.
It's remarkable, very predictable what actually happened.
Or when Thomas Jefferson wrote similar things, I think the US public needs to be aware that this unhealthy influence is actually destroying the American economy long term.
Let's leave it at that and thank you for your interest.
Well, let me just thank you.
I you have my profound admiration and I speak for every moral, decent human being that today we are all Palestinians.
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