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Aug. 17, 2023 - Jim Fetzer
01:13:22
The New JFK Show #288 Rick Russo / The Mary Moorman Photo
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Welcome everyone to the new JFK Show number 288.
We've got Jim Fetzer, Larry Rivera, myself, Gary King, and Rick Russo, who we'd like to introduce to the show, and also we'd like, Rick, welcome to the show, and could you tell us a little bit about yourself and about the presentation you have for us tonight?
I can add a few words right off the bat.
Rick had a keen interest in the medical technicians at Bethesda and did sensational work early on.
So he has a long-standing history of involvement in a rather deep and searching way.
Rick, further.
Well, first of all, before I begin, I want to thank Larry for taking the time to download and organize the photos that we're going to have as part of this presentation tonight.
And actually, Jim, I want to thank you.
You don't realize this, but 30 years ago, last month, you had set up an introduction for me with Dr. Herbert Spiegel in New York in order to allow me to bring Dennis David there to be hypnotized.
That's right!
That's right!
You're absolutely right, Rick!
Wow, 30 years ago?
I can't believe how time flies, huh?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was sensational, because as David can remember, every keystroke when he typed up about the bullet fragments that had been removed from the body.
You know, I had never seen anybody hypnotized before, and Spiegel was probably the best in the business at what he did.
You know, I guess there's various scales or ranges of people who are susceptible to hypnosis.
And on a scale of 1 to 10, Dennis David was right up there, almost a 10.
And he went back in time, at that point, you know, we're talking about 93, he went back in time 30 years in the first person.
It's like, he's actually there telling us what he's seen.
It was unbelievable.
I'd never experienced anything like that before or since.
I think at the time you told me Dr. Siegel said on a scale of one to 10, Dennis David was an 11.
All right.
I, that was being, yeah, that was theatrical, but I, I w I would stand by that.
Yeah.
I guess we could say he was an 11.
He was a perfect candidate for hypnosis.
And I mean, what an historic development that was.
Well, it was certainly helpful for him to try to recall certain things, especially that, The time he spent a few days after the autopsy night with Bill Pitzer and looking at those film materials and seeing what was on that, that was very important to get that recollection and a lot of the other things that he remembered as well.
Rick, very briefly here because we don't want to go off on a tangent, what's your take on Pitzer?
I believe he was murdered.
Okay.
Well, I mean, first of all, regardless of the investigation that the FBI did, and getting into all the technicalities as far as, you know, there was no, what do you call it, when you see a bullet wound, the stippling, you know, around the wound and all that, you know, showing that he couldn't have held the gun right to his head.
But the body was found underneath a ladder, and above the ladder was a ceiling tile that had been moved.
And then, the death of Pitzer takes place exactly one day before Bobby Kennedy gives Hadid a gift of the autopsy pictures and x-rays from the National Archives.
Now maybe, you know, that's coincidence.
But, and then you get into the whole Colonel Dan Marvin scenario, which I believe, uh, I met Dan Marvin.
I went with one of the first people to interview him before I even brought him to Nigel for the men who killed Kennedy back in 95.
And he, he struck me as a very honest man.
You know, he had no reason to concoct any of the things that he said.
So, uh, I believe Pitzer was murdered.
What about people, okay, and I had this just last one, you know, there was a researcher by the name of Eagle Sham who first advanced the suicide and then did a 180 on that.
Any comment on that?
That's just a mystery to me.
You know, I thought he did a great job, I think in the third decade, doing articles showing how, you know, it had to have been a murder, you know, and analyzing the FBI investigation report and all the other elements pertaining to the death of Pitzer and coming up with a real solid conclusion.
And then over a period of time, he did a complete 180.
And I have absolutely no idea why that happened, to be honest with you.
It didn't make sense to me.
All right.
Well, man, we got to bring this guy more often, Jim and Gary, because there's a lot of stuff to cover here, you know?
That was just what I was going to say.
And the fact, there's no doubt Pitzer was murdered.
His hand was mangled.
He was left-handed and his left hand, Rick, as I recall, was mangled.
I mean, you know, this was totally phony.
They wanted to get whatever video he had since he had recorded.
He'd actually filmed the entire autopsy.
So he was murdered as a way to You know, get rid of a witness who is in a crucial position.
And he and Dennis David were very, very close.
So Dennis David was really quite distraught over his death.
But I have no, I don't have an iota of hesitation to say that Pitzer was murdered.
He was assassinated for political motives.
Well, perhaps somebody was concerned, he may have talked to friends, you know, he may have been leaving sometime in the near future, you know, the military, and if he had copies of the materials that Dennis David saw, back in 63, then that was very dangerous to a lot of people who had already put forth, you know, what they did.
So I know we're digressing here, but if you want, I can start, you know.
What Larry is saying, Rick, is you're a wealth of information about aspects of the assassination are rather obscure and not well known, and that we'd like to have you back to address some of those in the near future.
Right.
Well, let's see how tonight goes.
Larry's showing, you can't see it because you're not on screen, but Larry's showing Lee Oswald passport, which specifically is labeled that travel to Cuba is not permitted.
So, I mean, you know, the whole story about him going down.
Yeah, that was excellent work that Larry did on that.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Here we go.
I'm going to put up the very first slide here, which of course is the number one.
Okay.
Well, before we get to that, I just want to do a quick thing.
Tonight I would like to talk about the Mary Mormon Polaroid image and the Phil Willis number five photograph.
Right.
But most importantly, I would like to discuss the credibility of Tom Wilson, Gordon Arnold, and Ed Hoffman.
And before we get to that, I guess we could bring the first image up, which is, I guess, the Mormon Polaroid.
Okay, and the Associated Press acquired the rights to this image, and basically we're responsible for the version that we see, not only today, but we've seen over the last God knows how many years.
And, excuse me, bringing up image number two, It should be a tight shot of the back of the president's head.
And you can see that it's been darkened by retouching, not only the back of the head, but the back of his suit jacket.
That whole area is darkened to the point where, and I could be wrong about this recollection, Gerald Posner, when he wrote Case Closed and was out in the media or whatever, Had told people that looking at the Mormon Polaroid, it was taken just a second before the headshot.
And the reason why he was able to state that was because that whole area of the back of the head is dark.
You know, so there's no evidence of any kind of wound there.
Before we go to the next image, I just want to tell you a little anecdote.
On the 50th anniversary, so that's what, 10 years ago, I decided to just stay home.
Everybody was going to Dallas, I guess, but I decided to stay home and just watch all the TV specials that were going on.
And then one of them aired on C-SPAN, and it was a 1964 CBS special called The Warren Report.
And in this special, and you've got Walter Cronkite doing the voiceover, in this special, there's an interview with Mary Mormon, she's standing on the street there.
They've interviewed her on Elm Street, and they're talking to her about what she experienced that day and where she was and all this stuff.
And then after they do that little interview, we hear Walter Cronkite's voice segueing to the fact that, and this is the image of the photograph that Ms.
Mormon took.
And I guess now we can go to image number 12.
We're not getting any images, apparently.
No, I just went back to the conversation while Rick was talking.
Here it is.
This is the fuzzy one.
But, you know, Rick, I wanted to add, I mean, Gerald Posner saying it was a moment before.
Actually, it was just a moment after because, you know, they touched it up, as you're observing, which Posner was seeking to conceal.
That's what he's going to get into now.
Yeah.
Well, that's obviously positive.
I was able to try to make that comment because there's nothing that we can see in this retouched Mormon photograph that had been on the wire services for so many years, you know, to hide the true evidence of what had happened to the president.
But image, are you able to bring up image number three?
Yeah, there it is.
This, okay, yeah, number three.
Would you say there's a slight difference between number three and number two?
Of course!
Actually, bring up number four, because that's a side-by-side comparison.
I don't know how it looks on your monitor.
Yeah, it's perfect!
So, what you can see there is the fact that CBS somehow had a copy of the Mormon image before anybody had retouched it.
And you can obviously see a large blowout.
I don't know how the quality translated to what I sent you, to what you've got on the screen now, but you could see it's a large blowout in the back of Kennedy's head in that CBS image that you don't see in the Associated Press wire service version that we also have there.
Larry.
You can see a big blowout, my goodness.
Larry, could you help to define the blowout here?
Are we addressing the split screen here?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, and I suppose that the published one is the one on the right?
No, the published one is the one on the left.
Okay, okay.
And the one on the right, you can maybe circle around the blowout in the head with your mouse.
Well, see, that's what I'm trying to say.
Where exactly is the blowout?
Right there.
There it is.
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
I see, okay, okay, okay.
I see it now, I see it now.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
All right.
But obviously, just even comparing the two images in the back of the head, it's worlds apart.
Yeah.
Okay.
So it just goes to show you that this material in some people's hands did exist back then, before it was repressed.
And unfortunately for CBS, somehow they... I remember there were no VCRs back in the day, so you saw the show live and that was it, and you probably had a second to retain what it was you were watching anyway, you know what I mean?
But thank God for modern technology all these years later, you know?
Okay, next?
So, before we go to number five, I want to talk a little bit about... I'm sorry, yeah.
Before we get to number five, I want to say something about Tom Wilson.
Worked for U.S.
Steel for 30 years using image processing to examine metal for structural defects.
We don't have the image.
We don't have the image anymore.
Gary.
It's okay.
He's talking about Tom Wilson.
I mean, Larry, I'm doing this deliberately.
Okay, yeah, we're not getting to number five yet.
We'll get there in just a second.
I just want to do a little intro.
What Tom Wilson did, for instance, the human eye can distinguish 16 shades of gray.
A computer image processor analyzing a photographic or film image can distinguish 256 shades of gray.
56, I'm sorry, shades of gray.
So that's a tremendous difference in trying to really get information out of these materials.
So bring up image number five.
Okay.
Now what you're looking at there is a camera with fingers on the right side.
And Tom had actually mentioned this find.
This is from the Mormon Polaroid as well, over the years, but I had never actually seen it until after he passed away and his book came out with all of his photographic work.
But this is a man holding a camera in the Mormon photograph in the area where Badge Man is.
Let me go back to the Mormon and see if we can figure out what we're talking about.
Badgeman is supposed to be here.
And you're saying there's a man holding a camera, maybe here, closer toward the edge of the... Well, you can't discern ahead or any... I mean, what Tom Wilson did, he was able to discern and bring out the actual physical camera that this individual is holding.
And he would be in the area that we had been told Gordon Arnold was in, in the Mormon photograph, way back in the day.
You mean on the steps?
You mean over on the steps, Rick?
No, we're the Badge Man.
If you've seen the old work done by Gary Mack and Jack White... Okay, I got it, I got it, I got it.
Right in this area.
Okay, we got it.
Right, and they said at the time they thought that was Gordon Arnold, but in any event, this is a man with a 16 millimeter camera in that area, and image number six I found was just a photograph of a man with that kind of camera back from the 60s, where you can actually see You know, his right hand grasping the side of the camera, the fingers, just the way you see in Tom Wilson's processing of the Mormon.
That's a huge mother effing camera!
My God, look at the size of that thing!
Well, they had various versions of that Aeroflex that had smaller film canisters on the top.
But I was just looking for an image that showed the man, the way you would hold it and the way his fingers would be on the camera.
You know what I mean?
Some kind of comparison, as far as what you were seeing in the work that Wilson had done.
We do know one thing, they blotted out a lot of cameras in all the pictures that we had.
Larry's pointed it out many times, where there's women holding cameras and it's all blotted out, and many people were flashing pictures.
Yeah, so they can conceal the fact that there's a lot of missing evidence that they've deliberately suppressed.
Go ahead, Rick.
Well, to basically complement what we just talked about, now that we have, through Tom Wilson, the image of somebody holding this camera, now let's go to the story of Rich De La Rosa.
And he claimed that he viewed the film, or a film, in 1974, 1976, and again in the 1990s, And he said it was a 16 millimeter film.
He then adds that the film he saw, and this is important, was taken from a different angle than the Zabruder film, making it another film, not the quote unquote other Zabruder film.
He said he saw the film twice as a college student, and then a third time under classified conditions while on active military duty.
So again, what's important about what Rich experienced is the fact that he's seen film taken by somebody other than Abraham Zbruder from a different angle, which now gives us a little bit of corroboration for this cameraman that Tom Wilson had discovered in the Mormon photograph.
I think Rich said he'd seen the other film three different times, which is rather remarkable in itself.
Amazing.
Well, you know, well, let's come up with an explanation.
Hang on, Larry.
I'm checking something out.
Okay.
I'm going back to the image, Rick.
Now we got that very first that would be relation to Rich.
Enlargement number two.
Okay.
Before we get to image number seven, I just want to give one more bit of collaboration for our cameraman up there.
In 2016, Shana Willis went public with a story about her father, and unfortunately his name has been given, but I don't have it to share with you tonight.
I just didn't look it up.
She originally just called him Phil.
And this is not to be confused with the Willis family or Phil Willis.
This is somebody completely different.
And in telling the story about her father, she said, quote, Dad was a retired Master Chief U.S.
Navy Photo Intelligence.
His DD-214 is dated 11-23-63.
is dated 11-23-63.
She stated that he had other intelligence clearances and had taken film during the assassination.
She stated again that her father worked in the military as a photo intelligence officer and had taken film behind the picket fence on top of the knoll.
No.
And then she goes a little further.
And then she goes further and she goes further to say, when the HSCA was established in 1976, because dad previously worked with ONI and CIA,
He said that they came to him and asked him to pull and make new prints of the JFK materials from the DPD, which Dallas Police Department, for the HSCA.
So here we actually have the men.
We have the cameraman, father of Shawna Willis.
And so I think this comes full circle to kind of establish the fact that we actually had a guy with a camera in that area.
So you're suggesting the camera that Tom Wilson identified was Willis?
No, not Willis.
No, no, no, no, no.
Yeah, Willis is his father, yeah.
Well, Willis is Shana Willis' father, not to be confused with Phil Willis.
Oh, I understand.
We understand.
His last name, Jim, was not Willis.
Her married name, I think, must be.
I don't know.
I can't remember what his actual name was.
They actually kept it secret for quite a while, you know.
But you've even figured out who the camera was that Tom Wilson identified in the Mormon Polaroid.
I guess we have them, thanks to Shana coming forward back in 2016.
Quite a bomb to drop, by the way, you know, even at that late date.
All the pieces of the puzzle have been out there, but now they're slowly finally being able to be assembled and put together so we can actually get a clear sense Of what was really going on at that time, you know?
Jack White maintained that in the Bronson, and Jim published this, that Zapruder couldn't have filmed the assassination because he was being blocked by his secretary, Mary Sitzman, you know?
Yeah, that whole thing that was going on up there, I don't even know, you know, what the deal was with Zabruder, but... Yeah, I know, he was one of the greats.
Should I go to the next?
Let's go to image number seven.
Okay.
Okay, this is a blow-up of Roy Kellerman.
In the Mormon photograph, sitting in the front seat.
As you can see, he's got some kind of book or something he's actually putting in front of his face at that time.
Now, when Tom Wilson was doing his work on the Mormon photograph, and remember, his software and hardware was, you know, used for finding defects and anomalies and steel and metal and that kind of thing.
And in working the Mormon photograph, lo and behold, he discovers a metallic anomaly which, through processing, revealed a bullet slug lodged in the steel arch above the connellies, which the removable roof would sit on.
And that should be photos 8, 9, and 10.
So you're saying that Kellerman was shielding himself with something?
Well, in that tight shot of Kellman, he put some kind of a book or something up in front of his face.
You know, I, you hate to speculate about any of the stuff in this case, but I think that he may have very well at that moment been responding to a shot that came through the windshield, you know?
Exactly, exactly.
Which, and he was reacting to this spickling hitting his face, and that is shown in, uh, even in the Z film.
Yeah, all the broken glass.
Yeah, spickling, you know, and that's what he was, Reaching for his cheek there because he felt that sting there, you know, from what I've heard.
So, in any event, in this sequence of photos 8, 9, and 10, it shows the work that Wilson did.
The, you know, the sequence of processing that part of the Mormon photograph and finding this anomaly, this slug that had been lodged in the arch.
I never heard about that one before, Rick.
We're not, we're not talking about the bullet that hit the chrome strip above the windshield, the front windshield?
Nope, no, no, we're not talking, nope, nope.
He's talking about the divider where the bubble top rests, you know, from back to front.
Right, think of the McDonald's arches, and there was an arch right above the Conway's in between their seats and the Secret Service guys in the front, and that's where you would put the roof back on top, that's what it would sit on.
Somehow, in a one-in-a-million, a bullet slug lodged in that metallic arch.
That's actually chrome, and I actually modeled it into the Blender 3D model of the limousine, because it's, like you said, it arches from one side to the other, and it's right in the middle of the limo, and that's where the bubble top rests.
You know?
Right, right.
And photos 8 and 9 basically show Tom Wilson's process of how he got to where he got.
And number 10 is four Polaroid pictures that he sent me, that I made a color laser copy of, that really show enlargement of the actual slot that's lodged in there.
Yeah, go back.
Yeah, that's very good.
I was wondering what that was.
Good, good.
Good, that's excellent.
So we have Tom Wilson's work in the Mormon photograph discovering another slug, more evidence.
And it came by mistake, that discovery.
Is that right, Rick?
I don't know how he actually... His computer software must have registered some kind of defect, you know, a metallic defect.
Yeah, I'm sure that's how it happened.
And then he worked it, and worked it, which is what he did.
He was a professional, streaming down the great scale until he was able to come up with what we are looking at right now.
Yeah, and with the technology that was available at the time, obviously.
So, this is the same fella that was on The Man Who Killed Kennedy?
Absolutely!
Yeah, I'm familiar with that show.
And you know where he said that the headshot came from?
yep he he he put the gun he put the gunman for the final headshot in the sewer and if you look at that mormon photograph from cbs that we looked at a few minutes ago with that large defect in the back of the head now which is the mormon photograph was the source for him doing his trajectories for the bullet shots anyway so you could see where what would go right into the ground right into the sewer
and that's the only way it lines up rick because if you look at uh uh jfk's head and position as he's going down elm street at z312 313 his head and is in a position of 60 degrees forward and when you have that type of arrangement it's the only way the only source we Would have been the storm drain.
There is no doubt about it.
And, you know, like I said, you know, people on our side are Penn Jones, John Judge, Celandria, you know, on and on and on and on.
Well, there's an issue.
There's an issue here.
I mean, David and I went down to the storm drain.
David climbed into the storm drain.
I agree.
And it had been filled with cement, according to John Judge.
It had been filled at least a couple of feet where, at the beginning, he would get in there up to his armpits and then later on, you know, he would only fit up to his waist, you know.
And so that kind of changed, obviously.
Yeah, but David believed the angle was wrong for the headshot to have been fired from the storm drain.
Isn't that very important?
May I address that?
Yeah, go ahead.
Two things.
Well, number one, as far as having a guy being able to fit in there.
Back in the 70s, this writer who was actually very anti-conspiracy, writing for the Texas Monthly Magazine with Penn Jones, actually went and went into the sewer and he himself had to admit that there was room for somebody to be in there.
And the problem over the years is that they paved Elm Street over and over and over again So the size of the actual, you know, hole itself has been diminished probably by 50 percent.
When I was in Dallas years ago and I first wanted to look at this whole situation, I went to one of the sewer openings on that side road in front of the depository that wasn't actually, it was offshoot from Elm Street, and I looked at their sewer opening and it was twice as much Twice as large as the one on Elm Street.
So that, you know, you can't use that to define your understanding of this.
But number two, people keep attributing the shot from the sewer with 313, or at least where they put the X on Elm Street, and that's incorrect.
Whatever shot hit Kennedy at that point was not the sewer shot.
The limousine continued to move forward and slightly to the left, And as the limousine came more down Elm Street, and then slowed to a stop, that aligned the shot from the sewer.
And the guy wasn't using a rifle, he was using a .45 with a silencer, because anything else would have blown his eardrums out.
And it's agreed that Greer brought the limo to a complete stop, because we know from the Escort and the Newcomb tapes, what happened
Right, and the reason why when Wilson went down to Dealey Plaza to do, you know, the whole, you know, trying to trace, you know, where the shots came from, he didn't use any Zubruda film because they couldn't be trusted, time-wise or any-wise.
And you only use the Mormon Polaroid because it's a fixed photograph with fixed positions around the sewer areas so you can actually do a fair trajectory and an honest one.
Exactly, you know, when and where that shot came from.
And so, you know, he did some terrific work using the Mormon image.
Let me reiterate.
David and I went to the sewer.
David climbed into the sewer.
He said the angle was wrong for that to have been a headshot.
Now, a .45 with a silencer?
Jesus Christ, man, that would have taken the man's head off.
I just don't know.
Rick, I do not know about this.
I will ask David.
I'm going to send him this show.
David isn't on college.
He's not a forensic.
Well, I guess the question, the question that I have, Jim, is where, aside from being inside the sewer and you have an opening that's only 50% of what it was back in 63.
So it's, you know, that's already against you.
But besides that, where did, where did David Mantek put the actual rimazine that he was trying to fire a shot to?
Where would he have placed that?
Let me think.
We know it was further down than Elm Street.
Yeah, we know what the X is.
We know that, Rick.
But I mean, I will address this.
This is a big question.
I'm just saying.
Based upon previous experience being there.
And remember, that guy's a leading expert on the head wounds at JFK in the world today.
I mean, this is not trivia.
But until he does what Tom Wilson did, which is put himself physically on Elm Street in the place.
No, no.
In the place where JFK was sitting in the Mormon photograph and then do a trajectory from back through the front, because that's, you know, where the try to find where the shot came from.
As Larry would say, it leads only in one place, downward and into the ground.
And you've got to understand the other thing about this.
When Wilson went there, he had no set agenda.
He had no idea where the shot, the head shot had come from.
He knew that, you know, where the exit wound was in the back of the head and where he felt the entrance wound was on the forehead.
But other than that, he didn't have a set agenda.
And he was shocked when he realized, my God, this is going into the ground.
And then all of a sudden you realize there's a sewer opening there.
Got it, got it.
I'm going to...
I'm gonna share this with David, as I say, and we'll get his reaction.
Larry, go ahead.
Well, David has my book, and it's included in the book, and I just cite the chapter in my book that addresses that issue.
And, you know, Well, you know, Larry, this is something I've overlooked.
And you also believe that shot to the head was fired from inside the sewer opening?
No, it's covered in the book.
I believe chapter 18.
Yeah, addresses that entire scenario.
We have another slide coming.
Yeah, a bunch of slides.
We got quite a few of them.
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh, well, um, the reason why I wanted to talk about Tom Wilson, and then we'll get into this next, uh, image, uh, number 11 is, is the fact that if you go on the, if you go on the internet, whether it's the, uh, education forum or these various JFK assassination Facebook pages, and you see Tom Wilson's name brought up the majority of the people responding to that are calling him a fraud.
And the reason they do that is because they have absolutely no understanding of his experience, his technology, the equipment he had, the software he had, or anything else.
It's just, again, a knee-jerk reaction to seeing something they can't comprehend or assimilate or understand, and therefore they'll just dismiss it arbitrarily.
But everything in this case needs to be corroborated.
Science needs to be corroborated with eyewitnesses or vice versa, and that's the only way you can actually then say this is factual truth.
Hypothesis and speculation by itself doesn't, doesn't, doesn't, you know, doesn't do it.
You really have to back up what you know.
So I presented you just now with Tom Wilson discovering a slug in that arch in the limousine.
Now by itself, Then you're faced with, well, I'll either accept Wilson's science and his discovery, or I won't.
So, how do we prove that this actually happened?
What Tom Wilson did not know, first of all, I did not know that Tom Wilson was working and had found this in the Mormon photograph.
What Tom Wilson didn't know is the fact that in 1994, When I was selling these videocassettes, I had licensed, as you guys know, Men of Kill Kennedy for video after A&E had run it, you know, back in, you know, the fall of 91.
And people would call up A&E wanting to buy, you know, the set, and they couldn't because they didn't have the rights, so they'd give them my telephone number.
So one day I got a phone call from a guy in Cincinnati.
You want to bring up the Hess and Eisenhardt slide now, number 11?
Sure, but I want to add another word about what we're talking about here.
In terms of replicability and so forth, because in my discussions, and I think I had them with both John Costello and with David Mantic, the problem with Tom Wilson's analysis, for example, of the wound to the back of the head, which is awesome, was not knowing how to replicate it.
Now, Rick, we need to be able to replicate it.
That was their reservation, and why it couldn't be taken for granted that it was right, even though it was I mean, fascinating, and, you know, in my opinion, highly plausible.
But there was a need to be able to replicate.
Are you capable of specifying how we can replicate?
When you say replicate, I don't understand quite what you're saying.
Replicate.
How we can use the same technique he used.
What exactly was the technique he used to discern those layers of the blowout to the back of the head?
I think anybody who's a professional computer image processing analyst, given that material, I'm sure could probably duplicate all of Wilson's work, because it's not, you know, it's science.
It's not something that one man comes up with and somebody else is going to come up with a different thing.
The thing is, none of us own that equipment.
None of us have that expertise.
And even going to what Wilson did in Dealey Plaza to try to find the trajectory of the shot that struck Kennedy in the front, no one else that I've seen in all these documentaries over the years has ever done the same thing, which is start from the exit wound in the back of the head, work through the front, and see where that bullet came from.
Everything else that we've seen is starting with a shot that came out of Kennedy.
The front of Kennedy's head, a la Zubruder film, go out the back of his head up to the sixth floor window.
That's what's been done over the years, but nobody but Wilson ever did the real way that this thing should be analyzed.
No shots were fired from the sixth floor.
We know the bullshit, Rick.
No, but that's the way these documentaries and Dale Myers and all these other people, that's the way they want us to understand it.
No one here and no one we're talking about is played by that bullshit.
None of us.
Go to Eisenhower!
No, but what I'm saying, Jim, is when these documentaries were done for Discovery Channel, whatever, they put a limousine right there at 313 or wherever, DX on Elm Street, and then with a laser they would have a thing going from Kennedy's head back to the window.
Never once did they think or even attempt to do it in reverse and go, all right, let's start from the back of his head and go forward and see where that laser goes.
Never did it.
And I have to also, also to your point there, in the same manner that we did with the shot from under the triple overpass, you know, going, you know, back and tracing it from the origin.
And like I said, I just mentioned chapter 18 of my book, Details, and also cites Tom Wilson's work and all the other researchers, like Penn Jones, who used to crawl through the pipes there, going through the who used to crawl through the pipes there, going through the manhole cover at the time, which, like I said before, went a lot, lot
And you, at one point, you know, he could go through the very intricate pattern of pipes and drainage pipes that went under Dealey Plaza, went under Dealey Plaza where he could go across Elm Street and then go east and come out to the basement of the Dallas Police Department.
All right.
I'm glad you mentioned that because one of the things in episode six that dismayed me about you know because i wasn't there i wasn't there when they shot the whole sequence with the sewer thing and tom wilson whatever is that that this guy that i had put together with jacob brazil right jack brazil gets in the sewer and then he supposedly walks a mile through these thing ends up at the trinity river to lead us to believe that that was the escape route which was nonsense and it's a quick
it was a quick 10 minutes Yeah, but that was completely wrong.
It was nonsense.
What people don't realize is that that series of sewer openings, from the one that, you know, we're talking about right now, where there was a man with a gun in, diagonally right across the infield of Dealey Plaza, all the way across to where the South Knoll is, and right up above to the South Knoll is that building that's a federal building, Yeah.
I guess, at least, recent years, the U.S.
Post Office was located in there.
It's called the Annex Building.
The Annex Building.
Do you know what, in 1963, what other office was housed in that building?
The Secret Service was there, the Postal Inspector was there, you name it.
Yeah, I got one more for you.
The Office of Naval Intelligence.
Oh, and I also want to say that in the map of Dealey Plaza and in the 3D Blender rendition and model that I worked on for almost 10 years, there are many storm drains That are actually bilateral, you know, from one another.
Because if you look at Dealey Plaza, it's almost, in fact it is, completely mirror image of each other.
from uh north to south okay so you've got the north part and you got and the pergolas are almost exactly the same now in in there and another even another uh uh researcher suggested that there might have been a shot from one of the storm drains from the other side all right so and that i never really studied you know or anything but i'm just telling you you know that you know those were positions of concealment that uh are ideal positions for snipers they always shoot
Right, right.
concealed positions.
And we know the cubbyhole over there under the triple underpass.
And you've got the diversions going on at the picket fence and all over the place.
And the kill shot, boom, is concealed.
Absolutely.
There's no doubt about it.
Right.
I know we digressed there for a second, but what I wanted to tell you guys, we got an image of 11 up now? - Yeah. - Yeah.
Okay.
In 1994, I get a call from this guy, Bill Carr, from Cincinnati.
He wants to buy the videos.
And then, at the end of our conversation, he says, you know, by the way, I've been trying to reach Nigel Turner and Oliver Stone, and I have no luck at all in connecting with these guys.
And I have a friend up here who has some information.
And he was one of the managers at S& Eisenhardt.
So he gives me the guy's number, name and number, and I contact him.
And then, uh, just to kind of get a little credibility, I sent him a copy of the Minicule Kennedy, you know, and he viewed that.
And then I spoke to him a second time.
His name was Jay Leahy.
He was one of the floor managers at S and Eisenhower.
And when the limousine was received by them, I don't know, it was four weeks later or whatever.
Uh, after the assassination when they were going to start, you know, rebuilding the car for LBJ.
Uh, another guy by the name of, um, Arlo Childers found the slug.
Now, when I first got... In Cincinnati.
Oh, Cincinnati.
Now, when I, when I, at Hess & Heisenau.
Now, when I first heard the story, uh, you know, I interviewed the guy, I just, you know, forgot about it.
And then years later, when I saw Wilson and what he had discovered in that area, because in my mind, you know, I was told this guy, Arlo Childers, his area of expertise was trim.
He was a trim guy.
So when I heard trim in my mind, I'm thinking what you mentioned earlier about that indentation in the, in the, uh, above the windshield, Jim, you know, that you, that we've seen in the FBI photographs.
Right.
So in my mind, I'm thinking, well, that's, That's where they found the slug.
But it, you know, couldn't have been that because the photos were taken long before, you know, with no slug in there, long before the car was even received in Cincinnati.
So when I went back to my interview, lo and behold, the guys say, no, it was, uh, it was the slug was found above the car in the arch that you would put the roof on.
So here is the guy in Cincinnati who actually found and removed the very slug That you see in Wilson's work on the Mormon photograph.
And I've never shared that with almost anybody.
Where do we think that was fired from?
Good question.
Well, most likely the trajectory would have been second floor of the Daltex building, perhaps.
A flat trajectory, right?
It had to be.
Had to be.
But anyway, it just shows that evidence photographically and scientifically is now corroborated with someone who physically found the very, you know, bullet evidence that we're seeing in Wilson's image processing.
So, you know, I would tell that story to anybody who calls Wilson and his work, you know, fraudulent or garbage in and garbage out, you know?
Never, never.
All right, next.
Okay, we're going to get to image number two.
Let's talk about Gordon Arnold.
Now, image 12, I think, is a screen grab from Gordon Arnold being filmed on the mineral killed Kennedy, you know, and he's, you know, with the camera showing them where he was at the time he was taking his film.
So let's go, let's take a look at his story for a second.
On August 22, 1978, Earl Goltz wrote an article for the Dallas Morning News, and quote, as the presidential limousine came down Elm Street toward the Triple Underpass, Arnold stood on a mound of fresh dirt and started rolling his film.
He said he felt the first shot come from behind him, only inches over his left shoulder, he said.
Quote, I had just gotten out of basic training, Arnold said.
In my mind, live ammunition was being fired.
It was being fired over my head.
And I hit the dirt.
Arnold, then 22, said that the first two shots came from behind the fence.
Quote, close enough for me to fall down on my face.
He stayed there for the duration of the shooting.
You know why?
Gordon Arnold, like Tom Wilson, is another one that takes a hit on the Internet, is lying.
You know why?
And talking to the story for attention and money.
You know why, Rick?
Well, the main thing they use is we don't see him in any of the photographs.
Therefore, logically, he was never there and he concocted the whole story.
That's what you hear from all these people on the internet.
Also, besides that, he was featured in a study called A Rich Man's Trick, and where he was brought out as a crisis actor, who... What?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've heard of that film, but I never remembered seeing anything about that.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Check it out.
In Who's Who in JFK, it says, Recent computer enhancements of the Mary Mormon photograph substantiate Arnold's statements.
In the Mormon photograph, the man directly behind Arnold firing a rifle over the fence appears to be wearing a policeman's uniform and has long been referred to as Batman.
Yeah, but what Rick is talking about right now, he's never heard about the comment that I just made about that documentary that I just said.
It's on the internet, you know, you can find it there.
Well, you know, the beauty is that people can come up with comments or speculation on anything that they want, but the thing is, again, the only thing that we need to do is corroborate So, I'm going to corroborate right now for you, Goran Arnold's statement.
I'm going to start with a statement from a Secret Service report done a few days after the assassination.
And this is from Secret Agent Thomas Johns in the follow-up car behind LBJ.
Quote, on the right side of the motorcade from the street, A grassy area sloped upward to a small two or three foot concrete wall with a sidewalk area.
When the shots sounded, I was looking to the right and saw a man standing, then being thrown or hit to the ground.
And this, together with the shots, made the situation appear dangerous to me.
And it was confirmed by Congressman Yarbrough, of course.
Right, and Yarbrough and the Men of Kilkenny, we know, we've heard his statement already, but here's the Secret Service guy stating the same thing.
Now, I'm going to read this next thing to you in its entirety, because a lot of people may not even know it exists, or were familiar with it, or aware of it, and I think what's in this is very important, so hopefully you'll bear with me.
This is an HSCA statement of a Telephone contact with Rosemary Willis on 11-8-78 for the HSCA.
Now, when I saw this, first of all, I thought, well, this is kind of interesting because I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong, you guys know more about this than I do, that the HSCA never went to Charles Brehm or Bill Newman or the motorcycle policeman.
To ask or get statements or testimony from them, and yet they're contacting somebody who was 11 years old at that time.
Why would they do such a thing?
What could she tell them?
Well, this is what she had to say.
Notwithstanding her father's admonition to stay with him on the grass section of the southwest corner of Houston and Elm Street, He was running.
She ran alongside JFK's limousine almost to the triple underpass.
Wow.
Let that sink in.
She managed to stay on the grass area.
Estimates that she was within three car lengths of the underpass before she stopped.
In retrospect, she realized by running alongside JFK's limousine She had inadvertently given herself the opportunity to view the spectators on the grassy knoll as the background as she watched JFK.
She is still able to recall two people who were conspicuous.
One, by holding an umbrella, obviously more concerned with opening it and closing it than dropping to the ground, like everyone else.
Except the second person.
Gordon Noel?
Except the second person, she saw, who had been standing just behind the wall section, nearer to the joining area of the underpass and Grassy Knoll.
The latter person seemed to be there, yet disappeared the next instant.
So, let's see, what was this part?
Oh, this is still from the HSCA contact report.
Pinpointing this location further, it could best be described as the corner section of the white wall between Zabruder's right side and the top of the concrete stairway leading up from the approximate center of the Grassy Knoll.
Now, she's also telling us here that there was a man behind that white wall in that corner just at the top of the stairs leading up from Elm Street who was there And then all of a sudden he wasn't.
Because he hit the ground?
I think that's second.
Yeah, that's more corroboration the fact that there was a man there and that man was Gordon Arnold.
He hit the deck.
In my opinion.
He hit the deck.
Also, as part of this HSCA interview, they also talked to her father and he was talking about the slides, the photos.
And they said that Mr. Willis's second photo, which would be actually Willis number six, depicts practically the same scene except the limo is further down the street.
Actually the limo is already left at this point.
And then what appears to be a head behind the corner section of the wall previously mentioned in Willis five is no longer visible.
Black Dog Man!
So what they're saying So what they're saying is basically in Willis 5, Willis saw what he perceived to be at least the head of somebody in that photograph, and then in the next photo he took, Willis 6, that person is no longer there.
So now you have that from the Willis family.
Shall we move on to Ed Hoffman?
Yeah, I just took the next slide.
How are we doing on time, Gary?
Oh, we've got like two or three minutes left.
Might have to do a part two.
We're going to have to because we still have a little ways to go.
A little ways to go.
Image number 13.
Gary, couldn't we just run over?
I think Rick's probably got 10 or 15 minutes max to go here.
All right, well, let's just go ahead and roll through.
All right, we'll do this quick.
We'll get through this quickly then.
Image number 13.
Now, I believe, is that Ed Hoffman on the set of JFK?
Yeah.
Okay, so those are the men with Ed that he described as he had witnessed.
And I guess they dressed him up for the movie, but then they never used it.
But nevertheless, that's That's what the man at Hoffman described and what he saw.
So now I'm going to read you something from Lee Bowers.
And we know who he is.
He's up in the tower.
He's up in the tower.
Right.
And he's looking down over the parking lot.
Quote, there were at the time of the shooting, in my vision only, two men.
These two men were standing back from the street, somewhat at the top of the incline, and were very near two trees which were in the area.
And one of them, from time to time, as he walked back and forth, disappeared behind a wooden fence, which is also slightly to the west of that.
These two men, to the best of my knowledge, were standing there at the time of the shooting.
One of them, as I recall, was a middle-aged man, fairly heavyset, with a dark suit, a tie, and a white shirt.
And he remained in sight practically all the time.
The other individual was with slightly different, slighter build, and had either a plaid jacket or a plaid shirt on.
So, we have Lee Bowers describing these two men That Ed Hoffman has described.
Now what I just told you has never been seen because it's an outtake from Rush to Judgment that was never used.
Right.
Mark Lane did those interviews.
So very important interviews.
He interviewed Bowers but this whole statement of describing the men and what they were wearing Never made it into the film.
Right, right.
And what I read to you is from a transcript of all of the footage that D'Antonio had shot, interviews and such, for his movie.
Now, when I found out about this, D'Antonio had already passed away.
I contacted his wife because I was looking to see, well, can we get the raw footage, you know, that I just described to you?
And see it on film.
And she said, well, all of his materials and film and outtakes and everything had been donated to.
And I must be confused with this, Jim, because I thought she said to me, University of Minnesota.
And that's where you're from, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But you would know if the D'Antonio collection resided there.
So it probably wasn't there.
So in my mind, it probably was University of Michigan.
But nevertheless, she told me what university it was.
I contacted their archives there.
I said that, you know, I understand you have the D'Antonio collection and its footage, and I'm trying to locate the footage that pertains to this, you know, interview transcript.
And they looked for it.
It's gone.
All the footage is gone.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
It was not the University of Michigan.
Right, so it must have been Michigan.
But nevertheless, here's one more example of corroboration for a witness that's taken a lot of hits, you know, at Hoffman over the years as being A liar, and in for the money, and in for the notoriety, and all that stuff.
Don't say that to Casey, Brian, and uh... No, I... No.
But again, these are trolls on the internet, so, you know, we take that for what it's worth.
But now, image 14.
This is very interesting.
There we got it.
I got a map.
I got a map here for you.
You see?
You see the map?
Yes, you do.
Okay, you see gunman number one, which is in the badge man position.
You got gunman number two in the Ed Hoffman gunman position.
And from gunman number two, you got a shot fired from him going through the Stemmons freeway sign.
At what time frame in the Z timeline?
Oh, I couldn't tell you anything about that.
Where roughly was the limo at the time that shot was fired?
Like 180, when maybe some of the frames that were missing, 177, 178, you know, those, or is that, would that be accurate?
Or would it be, because, you know, obviously that's with a limo further up Elm Street, you know?
So what do you think, Jim?
Well, you know, I mean, the missing frames, that was such a blatant thing to do.
Had to because something spectacular happened to the stem.
Like this.
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That it really fragmented.
That it was discernible that a bullet hit the sign.
So.
Yeah.
Didn't they take it out the next day, the very next day?
The sign?
I had heard that.
You mean the real stem and sign out of Dealey Plaza?
It was removed.
Yeah.
Right away.
Because it had a bullet hole in it.
Yeah.
And then when they reconstructed the film, they put it back in the wrong place.
You know, we have that John Costello nailed that.
All right.
Well, we're going to look at those.
We're going to look at the You know, the Stemmons Freeway sign.
Here, right, I just turned to it.
I just turned to the Stemmons sign.
You can see where the O, you can see the hole and where the O is in the Stemmons.
Very good, Rick.
Go ahead.
That's from Willis-Five.
And just to corroborate that, I'm not sure what film this came from.
The next image, number 16, is from another film.
It's a grab shot.
Showing the Stemmon's Freeway sign, and once again... It's already has the anomaly.
It already has the anomaly.
Of course.
So you got photo 16, same thing.
And number 17, I found this on the internet, somebody had made an illustration for people with their eyes who can't see the damage to the O on the Stemmon's sign.
Exactly what it looks like.
Yeah, that's very funny.
Very good.
You know, Ralph Zink went up there the other day and put up a sign, you know, holding it up and everything, trying to match a Z film or something like that, right Jim?
I think that's right, Larry, and of course he couldn't do it because the Z film has gotten a misplaced sign, so... Well, I'm not sure how much more time I have, but quickly I want to take you through this.
So, The map that we just looked at, with those gunmen in it, and the knowledge that was shot through the Stemmons Freeway sign, where do you think I got that map?
This one?
The one that's on the screen right now?
Yeah.
The one that we looked at, the map, with the gunmen in it.
Oh wait, Jesse Curry's book?
Nope.
Just a stab.
No, I won't keep you in suspense.
The map with the two gunmen in those positions, I think we've established now, and a whole damage to Stemmon's Freeway sign, which I believe we just looked at the photograph showing that damage, came from a book called Farewell America, written in 1968.
James Hepburn!
- That's right, that's right. - 1968. - James Hepburn.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, the French intelligence wrote that book.
And in 1968, they knew that there were those two shooters and damage to the Simmons Rearways.
Now, I'm going to read you what was in the appendix in the back of that book, which I think is important.
Quote, we challenge United Press International to release and to allow international experts to examine the complete and uncropped photograph taken by a Dallas resident, Mrs. Mormon, and to which it holds the rights.
We have copies of this photograph, reports from the two best laboratories in Europe.
We've no doubt as to its authenticity.
It shows President Kennedy from the back at the very instant that he was struck by the fatal bullet, but it also shows in the background two of the gunmen described or designated on the map as gunman one, and two on the map.
The first gunman is still holding his rifle.
The second has just pulled the trigger and is clearly distinguishable behind the barrel of his gun.
Now, obviously, the Mormon photographs that we refer to now that's available to us, there's retouching to hide gunman number two.
This is the gunman that Ed Hoffman had seen.
But he definitely is there.
And the French intelligence in 1968 put it in a book, which we never made it to the United States.
We didn't find it.
They were found in a warehouse in Canada, I believe, in the early 90s.
But you know what?
I went to the Boston Public Library and I found it, Jim.
In Portuguese.
In Portuguese, God.
I think I got it.
Let's quickly, I think we're down to the wire here.
Let's go to image number 18.
I'm there.
Okay, we're back to the tight shot, the Willis 5 photograph, and it shows an example, in my mind anyway, with the naked eye.
I hope you could see it.
There's extensive retouching in the background behind, you know, in that picket fence area.
You could see they're hiding something in this image.
And then we have that image of what has been described by Robert Grodin as the Black Dog Man.
The interesting story about this slide, Willis-5, is the fact that Willis went to the Kodak lab that day and was accompanied by the FBI, and he looked at the slides after they were developed, but then at some point he turned them over to the FBI, and months later he got the slides back.
And this is according to his daughter, Linda Willis.
Her father, Phil, was very upset because when he got his slides back, he saw they'd been altered.
You couldn't see the boxcars?
You couldn't see the boxcars?
Yeah, in his original slide, you could see the train through the slats of the pergola on the right.
They'd been whitened in on the slides that was returned to him.
So if they're going to do that to hide the train behind the pergola, Then they certainly are capable of retouching that area behind the black dogman.
Yeah.
So that brings us to our final image here.
Image 19.
Yeah, I think I got it already up, that comparison, right?
You know, and the thing about the retouching on the Willis, it had to be so meticulous to go in through all of the different squares, you know, of the, what do you call it?
The blocks that are made up.
Yeah, yeah.
The ornamental blocks, you know, that they had.
And, you know, to go into each and every one of them to erase the train, you know, it's incredible.
Well, the work they did on all the films and photographs was beyond comprehension, but I mean, that's a show for another... Well, the ones that survived.
Right, exactly.
Well, they let us see, you know, they'd done the work on it, they felt comfortable letting it into the public domain, but this final image here, this really brought it home for me, because you've got side by side the image from Willis-Five of the quote-unquote Black Dog Man in the exact same position Gordon Arnold put himself in In shooting the Men Who Kill Kennedy.
Suppressing Gordon Arnold is what you're saying?
So what I'm saying is, Gordon Arnold was the Black Dog Man.
Right, and they were suppressing him.
And the Black Dog Man was created, they retouched that part of the image to hide Gordon Arnold diving to the ground and reacting to a shot that was fired from behind the fence behind him.
Absolutely.
So Goran Arnold, you know, for people who said there's no photographs of Goran Arnold, well, there's a reason for that, but yeah, he's in Willis-Five, he's just been retouched.
Hey, Rick, he's even tilted a little bit, you know, over, like, he's almost... Well, I think he's probably, well, he's probably diving toward the ground at that point, perhaps.
As he stated, you know.
Hey, what about the Noel Rider, you know?
And Gary made that comment when we did the JFK Horseman.
Hey man, if I had a Harley coming at me, I'd be running my ass away from that.
Well, the thing is, the Black Dog Man in Willis-Five is reacting to a shot that's just been fired past his left ear that just went through the Stemmons Freeway sign, which we can see the damage on.
And this is all in Willis-Five, the whole sequence.
So at one end, you got Ed Hoffman seeing the gunman firing.
Then you got in front of that fence, scoring on and overreacting to that shot, which has now gone through the Simmons Freeway sign, and we're getting this from the Willis-Five photograph.
And so, unfortunately, it took me 30-something-odd years to realize that unfortunately and i i'd hate to think nigel turner realized or knew about this but certainly i'm going to put this in gary max uh uh corner that they led us to believe that that that figure in the mormon blow up the jack white had worked on was in fact gordon arnold and and and because they wanted to sell the fact that arnold could corroborate the badge man that's also in that image
But now what we've come to realize is the fact that, yeah, there's a cameraman there right near the in front of the Badge Man shooter, but it wasn't Gordon Arnold.
It was Shauna Willis's father.
I can get Shauna Willis For a show, anytime you guys want, you know?
You guys let me know, man.
We can get her.
Rick, Rick, we want to bring you back.
I mean, this has just been sensational.
I can't thank you enough.
Really excellent.
All right.
The last time we did this was 15 years ago, so I don't know.
We'll have to wait another 15 years to do it again.
I don't think so.
That wouldn't work on my agenda.
All right.
Well, I can't believe we got through all of that stuff.
Good job.
Good job.
All right, everyone.
Look, this has been JFK Show number 288.
Jim Fetzer, Larry Averill, me, Gary King, and Rick Russo.
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