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April 15, 2021 - Jim Fetzer
01:02:30
The Real Deal (14 April 2021): Conversations with James Files
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This is Jim Fetzer with The Real Deal Broadcast with Pamela and James Files, whom I previously introduced and whom I got to know personally recently during a lunch where I treated them at the Longhorn Steakhouse right here in Madison, and we had a wonderful time.
And we wanted to follow up with further discussion about James' history in relation to the mob, his background growing up, and then turn to Pam to talk about their books on JFK.
James, Jim, it's just terrific to see you again, my friend.
It was nice seeing you too, Jim.
I really had a great time with our lunch.
We sat there and we got to talk for quite a while.
I thought they were going to kick us out after about four hours.
And the food was palatable, too.
We had lunch.
I think they thought we were going to stick for dinner that night.
Love it, love it, love it.
Well, well, well, James, tell us, tell us about your background and how you grew up, how you eventually wound up working for the mob in Chicago.
Well, I grew up in Melrose Park, and most of the places, Capone, everybody had their headquarters in Black and Cicero.
But all the orders come out of Melrose Park.
And I grew up on 22nd Avenue and the 100 block.
And I used to hang out with a little buddy of mine, his name was Guy Anacarada, and we used to sit out there on a Saturday morning by this one little deli, and Jackie Chiron's wife, she owned it, so he would come by to see her, and so we'd take her little towels, we'd get out their wife's office, windshield, the hubcaps, and this is in the mid-50s, and he'd throw us a $5 bill, and you know, that was a lot of money back then.
And so we got to know him pretty well.
I finally decided to put him to work doing a few things and running a few things for him as a kid, you know, and doing a couple of bucks my way.
So that's how I got to know him.
So after Jackie Cerrone and I got older, then in 59, I joined the army.
I was 17 years old, took my basic Portland, Woodland, Missouri, AIT, Fort Polk, Louisiana, signed up for Airborne, went to Bragg.
We left Bragg July the 10th with the Laos on Operation Mobile White Star and went through that.
I got recommended by Shackley.
David Williams, Steward Shackley.
For the CIA, and they recruited me.
They got me out of the Veterans Hospital.
I'd been sent to the hospital.
So anyway, to get by all that back home, I tied up with Charles Nicoletti.
But at the same time, when I was walked out of the hospital by David Alley Phillips, and me with their Veterans Hospital, I went to Florida with him working to train for the Bay of Pigs, training humans in hand-to-hand combat and explosives.
That's when Johnny Roselli met Johnny Roselli down there.
And Sam Jeankin and Johnny were very tight.
And Sam calmed down there because somebody in the FBI recommended Johnny Roselli to the CIA to handle a contract to kill Castro.
So Johnny Roselli got with the people at the CIA and they offered him $100,000 to terminate Castro.
And Johnny told them, he said, no, I don't want no money.
He said, I'm a patriot.
I'll do it for free.
And that's when Johnny picked up the title of Colonel Ralston that he was going with, because most of us did not want the radical Cubans to know our true names, because we were down there working with them.
But when Johnny took the contract, he had to get it approved by Sam Giancana here in Chicago.
So when he went to Sam, then Sam had to go to Tony Accardo and they approved it.
So Sam decided to go down and hang out with Johnny in Florida.
And he spent a lot of time down there, and we was working on different things, and I didn't have no part in getting rid of Caster.
I did my job training hand-to-hand combat and explosives with the Cubans who were going to be going in.
But anyway, back home, people whispering in Tony and Carter's ear that Sam was no longer able to have the outfit because he was gone too much.
So when Sam comes back, somebody told him that Action Jackson, whose name was William Jackson, Uh, nickname was Action, and Action was slang at that time for Juice Man, the guy that went out and collected the juice money for the outfit.
But somebody said he was whispering to the FBI and giving up information.
Action Jackson, he had a terrible death.
He was tortured and hung up on a meat hook, and he lived for over 24 hours while he was being tortured and murdered.
Was he guilty, Jimmy?
Somebody just put a rumor on him, but Sam used that as an excuse to show he still had the moxie to handle the mob.
And I don't think Action Jackson should have been killed, but I got nothing to say about it, you know what I mean?
But anyway, Sam come back down to Florida.
And Sam and Johnny Roselli and me and sometimes Frank would go, Frank Sturgis, we'd go to the Fountain Below and eat down there and everything.
And we got to be pretty close there.
And as you know, the first Bay of Pigs was a failure.
Then they planned a second one.
I'm back home.
When I come back home, I was racing stock cars at O'Hare Stadium where the O'Hare Airport is right now.
And they took the stock car track out to put the airport in.
So I started driving for Charles Nicoletti as his driver.
And then Chuck and me was out with Nicoletti, Charles Nicoletti.
We had our own private shooting range for the outfits.
So we was out there and Chuck asked me, he says, you want to take a couple of shots?
And I said, yeah, I'd love to.
And he said, OK, here, I'll go get my gun.
He said, you got a gun?
He said, yes, under the front seat.
So I come back with a Colt .45.
And Chuck laughed at me and says, you can't do nothing with that.
But I amazed him with it.
I said, hell, I'm better with a rifle.
And, uh, so Chuck and me got along really good.
Then we met Sam at the Armory, and that was over in Roosevelt Road there at Forest Park.
And, uh, Sam asked Chuck that day, he says, uh, how's the kid doing as your driver?
Chuck said he's good, but hell, he shoots better.
And Sam had no idea about my background, because I never told him about it when I was in Florida.
And he didn't know how I wound up training humans.
Just to interrupt a bit, as a Marine Corps officer, I qualify as a 45, and I tell you, it's cumbersome.
It's designed for close personal defense, so that the officers wouldn't get distracted with activities, you know, they should be supervising rather than shooting.
What weapon did you use to impress Chucky?
Oh, I used a .45 pistol, but then when I went to the rifle, I was using an M1 carbine.
An M1, yeah, okay.
Yeah, an M1, yeah.
You know what?
Go ahead.
No, but Chuck was impressed by the M1 with an open sight, you know, and I was in the bullseye nine out of ten times right in the red, you know, the bullseye.
But anyway, so he told Sam, so Sam kind of reached over, slapped him in the shoulder and said, stick around, I got work for you.
And so I used to pick Sam up, take him shopping, and he'd be buying a fish or I'd be in his house in the basement.
He'd be cooking a fish and he'd hit me in the shoulder and say, Jimmy, boy, see that fish?
And I'd go, what about it, Sam?
Keep his mouth shut and be alive today.
So, uh, Sam and me got along real good.
He had a lot of respect for me, and I respected Sam.
He got upset with Chuck and me a couple of times, but that's besides the point.
I wouldn't do things that didn't come out right, maybe.
But then after the Bay of Pigs fiasco and everything, we was going to do Kennedy when Chuck come got me at the Harlow Grill that one night and was playing the pinball machines.
He said he was going to do a friend of mine.
I thought he was talking about Jimmy Leonetti, who was a motorcycle guy that ran with the henchmen.
And he said, no, not him, Kennedy.
And no problem.
He told me Johnny Roselli was going to work with us.
And he also wanted to bring in a Leo Mercer.
But, uh, We've got Kennedy in Chicago, actually in Hillside at what we call the bottleneck coming in over it.
And I think we've got pictures in the book about that.
And we went from there on down the road.
We wound up doing Kennedy, as you well know.
And then we get back to the mob.
Were you aware of an attempt to assassinate JFK in Chicago?
Yeah, I picked out the location for it.
At the bottleneck coming in on the rise.
We was on the southwest coast, southwest curve, that the limo would be coming through there.
But tell him what time of year that was.
That was in May, I think that was in May.
It was early, it wasn't right before.
That was in May.
Tony O'Connell didn't want you to do it because it was in his backyard, is that right?
Right, that's right.
He said, no, not in our backyard.
He said, go somewhere else with it.
The only one that really wanted Kennedy dead was actually Sam.
Tony O'Connor didn't really care.
But Sam was the one that wanted him.
Why would a Sam care?
Well, Sam wanted the casinos back in Cuba and he was upset with the Kennedys.
Yeah.
Regaining control of the resorts and casinos in Havana.
Yeah.
Money laundering and all that.
Yeah.
And the guy that got this set up for him in Cuba was not Sam.
The guy that set it up was High Lerner.
High Lerner was the guy that was up above Meyer Lansky.
High Lerner was the one that set up the gambling for him all through the Middle East.
Most people have never even heard of High Lerner.
So Meyer Lansky wasn't the top of the chain?
No, no, no, no, no.
No way.
Yeah, that's fascinating.
Something else you said, Jimmy, and I'd like to come back to this, is you talked about right off the bat you were meeting people like David Attlee Phillips, for crying out loud.
He was the head of Western Hemisphere for the CIA.
So it's astounding to me that these highest level people were right there on the ground.
It's like they were supervising events that they were really hands-on.
And they were.
But David Adderley Phillips walked me out of the Veterans Hospital because Theodore Shackley, Ted Shackley, aka The Butcher, The Blonde Ghost, and all that, he recommended me to the CIA.
And the CIA, well, let's face it, Operation Mobile White Star was a CIA operation, and it was run by Colonel Fletcher Prouty.
And so I had a situation there, but before my 18th birthday, I went in the military at age 17 in Laos, but I could shoot because I was shooting as a kid hunting rabbits and squirrel down in Alabama.
So I had a lot of history for using a rifle.
I used a 22 to shoot rabbit and squirrel.
I didn't use a shotgun.
I used a 22 and I could hit them on the run.
Anyway, but, uh, I had 17 confirmed kills on priority targets before I turned 18.
And I didn't get to Laos until June 9th and 10th, in July.
Those were hits in the military?
Yes, military hits, yes.
Taking out officers in the path at Laos.
And, uh, some of them happened to be a few Chinese, uh, public officers.
Did that include the Chinese officer at 1,400 yards?
No, that came later in 1969.
Uh-huh.
I did that with the XM-21 when they first gave it to the military.
It was one of the best sniper rifles they had used, and nothing was better until they come out with the Barrett.
When they come out with the Barrett, which is a .50 caliber, then that made a big difference.
What was the sniper rifle you were using before the Barrett?
It was called the XM-21, modified M14.
It had a longer barrel, heavier gauge barrel.
Pardon me?
Yeah, no no no, I was just repeating the model of the weapon, yeah.
And if you pick one of those up today in fair condition on the internet, you'll pay a little over $3,000 for it.
You know, we weren't even supposed to be in Laos, needless to say.
I mean, according to our publicity, our public stance, we were not in Laos or Cambodia, for that matter.
This was what they call the Secret War.
But Fletcher Prouty was in charge of it at that time, and I served under Fletcher Prouty at that time in Laos.
Fletcher was a good man.
Did you have personal contact with Fletcher?
Yes, I did, and they talked to Fletcher Prouty before he passed away while I was at Stateville, and he confirmed that, yes, I was on Operation Mobile White Star, and yes, that I was a good soldier.
He said he only had one problem.
Sometimes I went into overkill and did more than was necessary.
Tell me about Operation White Star a bit, James.
Well, they got over there in late 55.
I didn't get there until 59.
I'd been going for three, four years.
And they were training, the Pathet Lao, they were fighting the Pathet Lao and they were training
the Latoshans over there, people in Laos, to fight Ho Chi Minh. And that's where he got started.
And they would be coming down Ho Chi Minh Trail and we picked up the title, hey, Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh,
you know, Uncle Ho. And we recruited, I should say, they recruited like 10,000 people from the
North Side. And And they come down, we outfitted them, trained them, weapons, clothes, food.
And then half of them went back north again and we wound up fighting the other half.
And I wound up shooting actually two of my own men in an operation that failed.
The whole face was a path with our people in the Laos.
And I went through a revaluation.
Pardon me?
I knelt him down, and General Fang, he executed 17 of his own men.
My two men was with his 17.
I knelt my two down, and I put a .45 to the back of the head and shot him.
And so, when I wrote the paperwork up and the report, I went in for a court-martial, and they sent me for an evaluation at the Veterans Hospital, and that's when I was recommended for the CIA.
They figured I had the right stuff for them, and they shredded the 201 files, turned me over to the CIA, and the military made everything go away.
I had a short military history.
What had they done to warrant execution?
Well, they removed the C4 they were out doing, Uh, they're setting up M.A.s, which is Mechanical Ambush.
And when they did, they took some of the C's for the claim where they didn't work.
They blew the, uh, M.A.s, they, you know, they messed it up.
They didn't do it right.
But when Vance, when he shot his men, he looked at me, so I shot the two of mine that was with him.
I was 17 years old, but I was, been training since I was age 8.
Yeah, but this is basically for incompetence and carrying out a military operation.
Right.
Right.
Wow.
Fascinating.
And tell them who David Phillips introduced you to.
One of the first people down there in Florida.
When David Phillips walked me out of the Veterans Hospital and we went to Florida, the first person I met down there was Frank Sturgis.
Yeah.
Tell me about Sturgis.
Sturgis is one hell of a soldier.
I got to be very close to Sturgis.
I respected him and admired him.
I couldn't want a better person covering my back in any type of operation.
Frank was always right there and he was very sincere and he knew what he was doing.
He knew the game.
I also met George Bush down there.
He was a recruiter for the CIA at that time.
Matter of fact, a couple of ships, I guess, that you had the Cubans that were hauling them around on, they had, they belonged to him, one of them had his wife's name on it, Barbara Bush, and Luis Posada Corrales was there.
Luis Posada Corrales and me were the first to hire for Operation Group 40, which is a worldwide assassination group.
But that's another story for another time.
Was that organized under Nixon when he was Vice President Eisenhower?
That would be a little high up for me on my knowledge.
All I know is that George Bush was the recruiter.
So George Bush recruited us and I never asked questions.
My job was to serve, not to ask questions.
Right, right.
It had to do with your longevity and why we're having this conversation.
That's right.
With them, with the CIA, with the mob, you don't ask too many questions.
They give you an order and you go do it.
That was just like that day in Dallas, when I took the shot.
When I got in the car, Chuck says, Jimmy, don't you think you fired too soon?
And I said, no, I was fixing to lose my field of fire.
But I did not want to go back and say why I didn't take the shot.
Right.
Tell me about Sam.
Tell me what kind of a guy was he?
I mean, I've heard a lot of actually... He could be like a little pit bull at times.
He was a little guy, small, but he was like a lovingly old grandfather at times, unless you really ticked him off.
And when he got ticked off, he could be like a little pit bull jumping up and down.
But he could order a hit.
I mean, several people died some violent deaths.
Yeah, like, uh, let's take Billy McCarthy.
You can check out Billy McCarthy and Jimmy Marialega.
They were, uh, they did something wrong.
Boom.
They got hit.
The FBI had no idea who did it.
They named probably half a dozen different people involved in the hit on those two.
Billy, he was dying, he was begging to be killed before he died.
And you see the movie Casino?
Allegedly put the guy's head in the vice, well that had nothing to do with it.
What happened was at Sam's house when they had the kid's head in the vice, closing it and the eyeballs popped out.
It had nothing to do with Vegas.
They wanted the information on who else was involved in a certain crime.
And so because it was a crime against the outfit.
So you don't go around hitting made men, you don't go around hitting people that's in the outfit.
Let me shut this off.
Sure, not a problem.
Not a problem, Jimmy.
Okay.
Did you ever know about Merlin in relation to Sam?
Well, let me put it this way.
My wife has only got a couple chapters to go to finish the book up on murdering Merlin.
I was not there.
But I drove the head team to the Powalkie Airport, which is now known as the Chicago Executive Airport.
But the crew that went out there to see Merlin, I drove them to the airport, and when they returned, I picked them up at the airport at Powalkie.
Yes, in Mundelein.
And Merlin was dead when they got back.
Did that involve Johnny?
Uh, no, it didn't involve Johnny Roselli, no.
Charles Nicoletti?
No.
Well, but they'll have to wait and read, they'll have to wait and read their story in the book.
You got it, you got it, you got it.
But I was not there when it happened.
I just drove the head teams to the Palo Alto Airport, and when they come back in, I picked them up there.
And the man that flew the plane is still alive.
But he wanted to know about Marilyn and Sam.
Oh, Marilyn and Sam?
I can't tell you a whole lot about that, but I know she was being passed around quite a bit.
They opened up the one new club there in Lake Tahoe that Sam and Frank Sinatra owned together, which later Frank had to sell out his part because of being tied to the mob.
That night allegedly I wasn't there I don't know but I heard the story was that she was passed doped up or whatever passed out laying there and I guess 27 different people went in there and had sex with her.
And she was unconscious to about 90% of it, I guess.
Not nice.
Was the Tahoe thing something featured in the Godfather series?
You know, where we have the home in Tahoe?
I only seen the first Godfather movie that I really watched.
I didn't care for the other ones.
I couldn't tell you a whole lot about those.
Did you regard the film as authentic or inauthentic in relation to mom's life?
Uh, the first of Mob Wives, they had it pretty good.
They handled it pretty close.
But, uh, you know, Hollywood kind of messes up a lot of stuff.
They go a little overkill in some of the movies.
But they like action in the movies and everything, so, you know, they're gonna dress it up.
Uh, like I said, if they wrote a true movie on Vietnam, nobody'd go see it, because it'd be very boring.
You go out on several operations, sometimes you never even seen Charlie.
You went out there and you just walk around in shirts, and you come back exhausted after a week.
But, uh... Well, we hear a lot about three figures, you know, Carlos Marcello, Santa Tronficante, and Sam as the big three.
Is that right or wrong in terms of understanding that they were under Meyer, but Meyer was under the other fellow?
Well, let me put it this way.
Chicago ruled everything from Pennsylvania border to the Pacific Ocean and from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico.
Whatever happened had to come through Chicago.
Tony O'Connor was above all that, over it.
He was the overseer.
CMG O'Connor was always number two.
CMG O'Connor was never number one.
Tell them about the East of Pennsylvania.
East of Pennsylvania, that belonged to the other people in New York, the five families.
But everybody had a piece of Florida, everybody had a piece of Las Vegas, and everybody had a piece of Hollywood.
Because they were so lucrative.
Right.
When you have something going like that, everybody gets a piece of it.
And like everybody had a piece of Atlantic City.
But other than that, back to the older days, when Johnny never got a hold of Castro, they tried all different kinds of crazy plans.
They never got rid of Castro.
He outlived everybody.
And then, like I say, Kennedy after Kennedy.
It went along, but Chuck and me, we went back to work as usual.
Then Chuck got whacked March 29th of 1977.
And I started running the crew.
How did that happen, Jimmy?
Uh, I went, I asked Chuck that morning, we was walking in the park so nobody could hear it, there wasn't no bugs in the car, we got out, we had, they, he even had a bug in the car one time, in his car.
We got out and we walked and we were talking, kind of holding our hands up to our mouth, and uh, I asked Chuck, would you go to be home, do you want to go out that night before we got planned?
He said, I'm going to stay home.
He said, I'm going to go to the racetrack tonight.
So I went to the track, we had to go to work, call my place, the Coffee Cup, I owned the Coffee Cup on Lake Street at that time, at 1217 West Lake Street in Melrose Park.
Just a fast order, join you to the counter, a few booths, but we had the pinball machines in the back, and this is where you made the money, because everybody come there to play the pinball machines.
I went to the track, Chuck didn't call me, he went out without me, and he got killed that night at the Golden Horns Restaurant in Melrose Park.
And they actually call it part of North Lake there.
It was, I take it, it was a deliberate hit.
Oh yeah, the government killed Chuck.
Just like they killed, the same day, they killed a guy in Dallas, George, what's his name?
George DeMorenchil.
George DeMorenchil, I can't even say his name, I call him a diplomat.
He died the same day as Chucky?
Yeah, he died that morning and Chuck died that night.
But both of them were testifying before the commission.
The HSC investigation.
Yeah, they were killed and uh, well first of all you got Sam, he's killed in 75 when he was supposed to testify.
Then Johnny Roselli, he was killed in 76.
They pulled his body out of Biscayne Bay in Florida, cut in half, stuffed in drums, and a drum down there.
Was that a mistake?
And then in 77 Chuck got him.
Pardon me?
You said when Johnny was killed that it was supposed to be a clean hit, but in fact he was tortured and cut up, so... Yeah.
Uh, they was upset because he talked to the, uh, before the commission that day, and I was at home and, uh, I was watching on TV when he's walking down the wide-ass steps, and my ex-wife, I called her and said, hey, come take a look at Johnny.
She said, I know what he looks like.
If you have this the last time, you're gonna see him.
And, you know, they're singing and they found the body.
Yeah, yeah.
Why was Sam was taken out?
Because he was testifying to the commission?
Yeah, he talked and said a little too much, I guess, and that way when you start talking, you can't be trusted.
And he was gone, and they didn't want anybody to see.
They ordered Sam's death, and they used Johnny Roselli to kill Sam Giancana.
Was that the CIA giving the directions or Tony Accardo?
No, the CIA.
Tony Accardo knew nothing about it.
How did he react to Sam being whacked by Johnny?
Well, I don't think he was very happy about it.
Some of the people wanted to get rid of Sam because he had drawn too much attention to the outfit itself.
And him playing around with Phyllis McGuire, that didn't help matters none.
And Sam started staking the spotlight.
And you know, Sam had to leave the country for a while.
And he went down to Mexico.
Plus he did a year in jail for contempt of court.
He refused to testify.
And so they gave him the fifth and he wouldn't take, took the fifth and he still wouldn't talk.
So, uh, he went to jail for a year and then he went down to Mexico to live for a while.
And while he was gone, Richard Cain was whispering in Tony O'Carter's ear about Sam being gone too much, and he was trying to squeeze Sam out so he could take over Sam's part and be number two in the outfit.
Richard Cain was the detective in Chicago.
When Sam got back and found out what was going on, he called somebody up and they met him.
He was on the corner of Roosevelt Road over by Bishop Chili's.
Jumping and yelling up and down, he did not want Richard Cain to have lunch that day.
The result was Richard Cain was executed in Little Rosie's Sandwich Shop.
He didn't get lunch that day.
Richard Cain was executed that very day?
Yeah.
That morning, the order was given, and four hours later, Cain was dead.
When you were in Florida, did you ever run into Bradley Ayers?
No, but I know who he was, but I had no dealings with him.
I thought you knew him from California.
Yeah, he was from California.
He was off the West Coast.
He had a company out there.
I believe it was them.
They might have been the ones that supplied the plane in Dallas in case it was needed.
But anyway... You knew... Did you run into Jack Ruby?
Did you spend any time in New Orleans?
I did not know Jack Ruby.
I knew who he was, but I had not met him.
I had not seen him until the morning I took Johnny Roselli to the Old South Pancake House.
Over by Fort Worth.
And, uh, Johnny went in, I commenced it out at the counter, so I could keep an eye on, uh, Johnny, make sure nobody got to him, nobody bothered him.
Jack Ruby come in, he walked within two feet of me, went over, they shook hands, he sit down, they had, he got a cup of coffee, they talked for a few minutes, he pull out like a five by eight brown envelope, put it on the table, slid it over to, uh, Johnny, Johnny took it and put it in his jacket.
Couple of minutes later, Jack Ruby got up and walked out.
And, uh, I never said a word to him or anything else.
When he went out, I went out, I got in our car, I pull it back up at the front door, Johnny come out, got in our car, and we went back to Dallas.
Which is about already, when Johnny opened up the envelope, they had the Secret Service badges in there, some other ID cards in there for the CIA, and, uh, Secret Service, not CIA, but the Secret Service.
So I went back and parked at the Dallas Cabana, Johnny went in, I waited while Chuck come down, and then Chuck and me walked the area.
And when I walked there, Chuck was about to use me as a bouncing board, like, you know, what do you think?
Because he knew my skills with shooting and this and that as being a shooter.
And Chuck said, uh, he asked me to be his backup because Johnny wasn't going to shoot.
But we just learned that they were sending in an abort team, which is only there to cover the ass of the CIA in case something went wrong.
Then they could jump in and say, they foil the assassination attempt and they save John F. Kennedy.
You're telling me the abort team was a fraud, actually?
Right, it was a fraud, yes.
As long as everything went smooth, they were able to leave and get out of town.
They were there to stop nobody.
They were only there in case we blew the operation.
If we blow the hit, then they can claim that they stopped the assassination and they saved Kennedy's life.
And you knew Lee Oswald?
Yeah, I spent five days with Lee right before the assassination, but six months prior to that, I had been running weapons down to Clinton, Louisiana, meeting Oswald there.
We'd put the weapons in his truck, and then he would drive them all over to New Orleans, and he was putting them on a freighter he was shipping off.
We were shipping weapons to Papa Doc at that time.
And after Papa Doc was gone, we shipped them to Baby Doc.
In Haiti, yeah, yeah.
In Haiti, yeah.
What was your assessment of Lee Oswald?
I liked Lee, and he was very intelligent.
He's not the dummy they portrayed him to be.
He was very close-mouthed.
And, uh... I don't like to talk about other people or discredit them or anything else, but like I say, books are wrote about Lee, and they got it all wrong.
But I knew Lee very, very well.
And if anybody wanna know, like, Lee had a tattoo hidden in one place on him.
It couldn't be seen by the public, but in the showers, you could see it, but, uh... People, a lot of people don't even know he had the tattoo.
So if anybody was that close to Lee, I think they would have known it.
Lee was very intelligent.
He held a top-secret security clearance.
He was sent to Russia.
Nobody leaves this country to go to Russia unless they're on a black flight and that's the only way he was going to go.
The Soviets knew we sent him there for disinformation.
He held a top-secret security clearance to one of our spy bases in Japan.
And, uh, he went there.
The Soviets knew what it was all about.
They knew he went there to give them disinformation.
And they actually bought him and Maria their tickets to come back to the U.S.
because they couldn't wait to get rid of him.
But they treated him very well while he was there.
But he knew he was an agent for the CIA.
And we did the same thing with their people they did to ours.
But the thing with this, if they kill one of ours, we kill one of theirs.
So we try not to kill each other.
Was Marina and Lee's relationship legitimate?
It was legitimate.
She really cared for him.
She fell in love with him.
And he really cared for her.
Huh?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And from your description, I mean, he was a serious guard.
He was.
Very quiet, smooth-natured.
He didn't eat junk food.
We had stopped while we were in Dallas.
I spent five days with him in Dallas.
Drive it around learning when you're going down dead-end streets for that.
Railroad crossings for that.
I wonder what time the trains come through there.
Because the whole thing is this.
If you're in a high-speed chase, something goes wrong and you're trying to get away from the law.
You don't want to go down a dead-end street and go where a train is crossing.
It can wreck your whole day.
They gave me a paraffin test and the only nitrous in the shells he had was in the palm of his hand and that's when he picked up my brass when I was test firing weapons out at Mesquite.
There was no nitrous on his face or his neck from firing a rifle.
There's no nitrous from firing a .38.
Because if you fire a .38, it comes back across the palm of your hand and your wrist.
Not in the palm of your hand, it's across the top, the blow-by.
The nitrous.
They gave him a PET test and they said no, that he had no nitrous like that.
Only in the palm of his hand.
Did you know much about the Texas School Book Depository?
I've never been in it.
I think it was a CIA front.
I just wondered if that was your impression as well.
It might have been.
I know that somebody in the Hunt family, I believe, owned it.
So, I'm not sure how that went, but uh... They were all tied together, that's all I know, but like I say, they were way above me.
I'm just a lonely piano on the ground.
I'm a soldier.
I'm somebody that's gonna go do the job.
Do you know the story of the three tramps, three individuals who were escorted through Dealey Plaza after being apprehended in a boxcar behind the parking lot used by the Dallas PD?
Did you know Charles Rogers, Charles Harrelson, Chauncey Holt?
I knew Chauncey, but I did not know Rogers or Harrelson.
You knew of them, but you didn't know them.
Lansdell and Chauncey Holt, they were two of the tramps.
Not Lansdell.
Not Lansdell.
Chauncey Holt was... I can't think of his name right now.
Chauncey was the third of the tramps, yeah.
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Charles was the first, and Harrelson the second and tallest.
Yeah.
But Lansdell was grounds coordinator that day.
He was the one to come by to check right before the assassination.
Tell them about Chauncey.
Yes, yes, yes.
The day before.
Yeah.
The Chauncey Holt and Charles Nicoletti come in the day before, but they were late.
They didn't get there till early that morning.
They drove in from the Gray's Ranch out of Arizona.
Chuck, Leo Mercer, Chauncey Holt come down there.
They had a sandstorm, had all kinds of car trouble.
They were almost late getting there.
They got in that morning, probably 4 or 5 o'clock, I guess.
Because when I got up, I went...
Chuck told me come pick Chuck up, and I went and picked him up, and we went to the Old South.
Tell me, what was your assessment of Chauncey?
Chauncey was a pretty intelligent man.
He was good.
He knew his business.
He knew what he was doing.
We wasn't friends.
Our paths crossed, but, excuse me, that was about it, you know.
And I admired Chauncey because he was good at what he did.
He ran a floating press.
He made IDs for people.
Other than all that though, I had nothing to really do with those people.
I mean, I stayed basically in another circle.
Now Chauncey told me that he had prepared the Secret Service ID, but you're suggesting somehow Jack Ruby had them?
No, he delivered them to Jack Ruby.
Jack Ruby, he delivered them to Jack Ruby.
Jack Ruby delivered them to the Old South Pancake House to Johnny Roselli.
And Chauncey probably gave them to Johnny Roselli.
That's what I said.
Yeah.
He delivered them to Jack Ruby.
Chauncey told me he put them in a pickup truck that was back right behind the grassy knoll there in the vicinity where you were.
Well, Jack Ruby got them somehow, and Jack Ruby come to Dallas, come to Fort Worth with them, And gave them to Johnny Roselli.
About what time would that have been?
That was the morning of the 22nd?
Yep, it was early that morning because I picked Johnny up about 7 o'clock.
My call was a little after 6, and I left Mesquite and went over to Dallas Cabana.
And my pull-up, Johnny come down, he was in the lobby, come out, got in the car, and then we went over to the Old South Pancake House.
We stayed there for a little bit and he met with Jack Ruby on the way back.
It's a good 30 minute drive back from Fort Worth.
We didn't have all the super highways back then we got today.
I dropped him at the Dallas Cabana and Chuck come down.
What was Jack Ruby's role in Dallas?
I mean he had the Carousel Club and apparently he was on very good terms with like half of the Dallas Police Department.
I couldn't tell you much about Jack Ruby because I had no involvement with him whatsoever.
I never said hello to the man, never shook his hand, never met him.
I just knew who he was.
After Dallas, what was the course of your career with the Bob after that?
Oh, I just got out of work and I went up to where I ran my own crew.
Ran your own crew?
Yeah.
And let me put it this way.
We'll get into more later on some other time, but late 77 and 78 was some of the bloodiest years in the Chicago outfit up there, in my time.
Really?
Yeah.
We probably, I don't know, I'm going to say at least 15 known killings went down, but some of them were the ones that robbed Tony Ocardo's home.
That's another long story.
That doesn't sound like a very smart move, Jimmy.
No.
It hit the number one man's house enough.
Who was dumb enough to come up with that plan?
Well, I always said they're not too smart, them guys.
They're like street thugs, you know.
They don't think right.
And they didn't have a long, happy life thereafter.
Well, very short and very died very painful.
Not nice.
Not nice.
That must have really pissed him off.
Oh, yeah.
How did he remain so quiet in the background that most people never even heard of his name?
Uh, he didn't like the Flash.
He was married.
He stayed home.
He only went out on certain occasions to handle, take care of things.
And he had people that worked for him and people that the front man is a buffer so they couldn't get to him.
Tony Ricardo was never in jail.
I mean, he got arrested a few times, but never went to jail.
He was, uh, really untouchable.
Let's put it that way.
What were the connections between the mob and the FBI on the one hand and the DOJ on the other?
Uh, there was a... Well, let's put it this way.
They had some tight connections, and have you ever heard of Jimmy the Weasel, Fratiano?
Jimmy Fratiano, known as the Weasel?
Yeah.
Well, he come to Chicago about a cap from California, and nobody knew that he was a rat, and...
So they were talking that one day, and somebody said something about, he's talking about these witnesses against the outfit, this and that, and now they're in the Witness Protection Program.
And somebody said, don't worry about it.
We got people in the FBI.
We know where they're at.
We can find these people.
Don't worry about it.
We got people that work in the Witness Protection Program.
So when he left there, he was scared.
He went to the fellow attorney and told him what happened.
They started investigating.
This one FBI agent, his wife worked in the witness protection program.
And he was in Baca, she would give him the information, he would give it to the mob.
So both of them went to prison.
And they brought Jimmy Fraudiano to hold him overnight when he was testifying against some of the outfit in Chicago and in Milwaukee.
I was at Oxford on my federal case during time, and the helicopter landed outside the fence, but they had a black hood over his head, and he walked in.
But the weasel was a small guy, and I knew his walk.
And so I'm yelling over the fence.
The administration called me and they gave me hell about it, but I didn't care.
And I'm hollering at him.
Hey, Rat!
We know who you are!
Hey, Jimmy!
Jimmy Brownhound!
You're the weasel!
You're the rat!
You've been beefing on everybody!
And their guards are running out.
They're trying to shut me and get me away, and they can't shut me up.
I'm in prison.
What are they going to do to me?
Anyway, so I let everybody know he was there, and then they had to move him from there.
And where they took him from there, I don't know.
But he testified against everybody.
He didn't live a long, happy life either, did he, Jimmy?
Well, they tried several times to kill him, but they kept missing.
I couldn't understand that.
What about Hoover?
Did Sam ever say anything about relations with Edgar?
No.
The CIA, they had him over a barrel.
Right.
They had compromising photographs of him.
Oh, you better believe it.
They had some great ones.
Yes, I've heard about them.
I've seen some of those.
Just as he had compromising photographs of Senators in Congress.
Yep.
Everybody blackmailed everybody.
Wow.
Listen, I don't want to take up all this time.
I want my wife to talk a little bit about the JFK assassination.
She wrote the book.
She knows more about it.
And I think she did a great job on primary target.
She did.
She did.
Let me ask you one more question, Jimmy, about Bobby.
How did the Bob feel about Bobby?
Did they feel that Bobby was doing too much and cracking down on organized crime?
Sam wanted Bobby dead with a passion.
He wanted Bobby dead Uh, probably more than anybody else.
More than Jack, certainly.
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Because Bobby was so relentless in going after the mob?
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Well, the old man, Joe Kennedy, made a promise to the mob, and then Joe was gone, and the kids didn't keep the promise.
That was it.
Bob would help Jack be elected by taking Chicago and Illinois.
Yeah, Virginia, West Virginia, whatever it was.
Yeah.
Not to mention taking care of Maryland.
Yeah.
And when Maryland was going to hold her press conference, which they'll read in the book, Maryland was holding a press conference.
She wanted Jack to leave.
Jackie.
Leave Jackie.
And marry her.
Yeah, she wanted to be the first lady.
How could she have thought that was me?
How could she have thought so?
Well, she wasn't very bright, let's put it that way.
She was a punching bag for everybody in Hollywood and half of the mob.
So, in that which is life.
Jimmy, this is just fascinating.
I can't thank you enough.
This is a wonderful sequel to our previous conversation.
Like I say, it would take me at least a week to see her go through it.
The whole time, the time, the bottom, all the way through it, all the way up.
And that's just like, when I had the ledger, Charles Nicoletti gave me his ledger right before he was killed and I buried it.
And, uh, when I got out of Stateville Prison, I went and dug the ledger up and I took it and I burned it, but there was over 60 contract murders in it, naming the people that was hit, naming the people who did the job that worked with Chuck, and the FBI wanted that really bad.
But again, that's just another story for a long time, and they'll read about a lot of this in the book.
Were most of these, Jimmy, paid hits?
I mean, were they... Oh yeah, they were paid contracts, yeah.
They were paid contracts, yeah.
And what was in the ledger on November 22nd?
So the ledger would have included the amounts they were paid for the hits and all that?
Oh yes, and who ordered it and everything.
And it also included the assassination on the President.
Jimmy, we'll do it again.
We'll do it again, my friend.
Okay.
Yeah, I want my wife to talk about the book and ask her a few questions about it.
See, she knows more about this than I do.
I was only a tool that was used.
I was there that day, and I took the shot.
But like I said, she knows all the big players.
She knows the history of all of that.
Yeah, thanks.
Thanks, Jimmy.
This has been wonderful.
It's always a pleasure talking with you.
Yeah, we'll do it again.
We'll do it again.
Oh, yeah.
We gotta come up next time lunch is on me.
Oh, that's terrific, that's terrific.
I got quarantined by my family for two weeks after we had lunch, you know.
For the coronavirus, you know, I don't believe.
Oh yeah, I didn't know that.
But my family believes in it, so you know, there it is.
But it was well worth it.
I don't believe in the coronavirus, no.
That was a great lunch.
I have been studying Oh, it was.
Jim, I've been studying about what's actually in the vaccine, and I think people are really going to be sorry they took those vaccines.
And if anybody hasn't taken a vaccine, don't do it.
You're going to hate it.
I've been reporting on the vaccine and the coronavirus since every single day, initially for about four months and then five days a week, at least since May.
I think it may have been March.
So I've been covering this massively.
You're 100% correct.
These vaccines are extremely dangerous and they're going to lead to the death of a very large number of Americans.
And of course, worldwide.
Worldwide depopulation!
It is.
It's part of a depopulation agenda.
You're correct, Pam.
And it's combining robotics with quantum nanotechnology that is going to be in our blood forever.
You can't get it out.
Yeah, it's a bad idea to take the shot, whether it's the Moderna or the Pfizer or the Johnson & Johnson, much less the AstraZeneca.
You're right across the board, 100%.
You've already published three books now, Pam.
I think that's really quite remarkable because the copy I have you sent me is just so well produced.
I mean, these are expertly edited.
You have a gift for this.
Thank you.
You really, truly do.
You want to talk about them for the benefit of our audience who may not know they're out there?
Yeah, go ahead.
Well, I've got my book, To Kill a Country, behind me here, and then Interview with History, The JFK Assassination, and this is our new book here, Primary Target, JFK, How the CIA Used the Chicago Mob to Kill the President.
More detail than Jimmy's previous interviews.
It also includes his CIA debriefing, which has never been heard before, except for in this book.
It includes all the questions and answers that people over the years have been asking the same basic questions that people are curious about.
What happened to the gun?
If you really did this, how come you're still alive?
I mean, did Gary Marlowe really kill J.D.
Tippett?
All those questions are answered in here, and then some.
And then we've got the court documents from Joe West's case, his letters to James Files, and then all the things that have happened to James Files after he got out of prison.
So there's just a lot of information.
Joe West was a good guy from everything I can put together.
Would you confirm that, Jimmy?
Oh yes, he was.
I really like Joe West.
We got to be very close.
Very good friends.
I had a lot of respect for Joe.
He did an interview with Thomas Evan Robinson, who was the mortician who prepared the body for the funeral.
That is historically of great importance, because Robinson was just going through with what he'd observed on the body and so forth, which is historically regarded as the best evidence.
Turns out at Bethesda, they messed with the body, but we know pretty much what they did, and it was really quite horrific.
to alter the body, but of course they were trying to conceal the true causes of death, so
not surprising. Pam, I thought it was brilliant how you included those questions and Jimmy's
answers and so forth as part of the book. I mean it makes it really an effortless read. Thank you.
I don't know, it was a divine inspiration just to put it together and get it out there.
I just wanted the American people and whoever wants to read it, people are ordering it from other countries too, but I wanted them to have the truth available.
Is that available on Amazon.com, or do you have an independent distributor?
Yeah, AuthorHouse.com is the publisher, AuthorHouse.
I don't know if you can see it.
You can get ebooks from them, softcover or hardcover, from the publisher, AuthorHouse.
But if you just can't remember anything about what we're saying, then yeah, you can get them on Amazon, too.
I think all the books on Amazon, but you can get Interview with History and this book here from Author House, or if you want a signed copy from us, you have to go to our website, and that's JFK Murder, or James Files, I can't even remember it.
James Files, jfkmurder.weebly.com.
It's our Weebly website.
Just remember Weebly, James Files, and Pam Rae, and it'll bring you right to our book website.
By entering James Files and Pam Rae, you can find it right away.
Jimmy, you're talking about the debriefing with David Atlee Phillips, right?
Right.
It just amazes me how these guys were just right there.
I mean, they were the next level, even though, I mean, he's CIA Western Hemisphere.
I mean, he's the head for the whole Western Hemisphere.
He even held the Southern Hemisphere for a while.
But he's right there on the scene, and he was with you in relation of Florida and the gun running and all that, and then in Dallas, too.
I mean, that's just amazing to me.
What did you know of the chain of command in relation to the assassination?
Well, the only part I can tell you about the chain of command of this was, I was with Charles Nicoletti, and when Charles, he answered to Sam, and Sam answered to Tony Ricardo.
The CIA answered to David Alley Phillips for the CIA, and who he answered to, I don't know.
Okay.
But I took my debriefing at the Midway Airport, and their register was at 63rd and Lawler.
So, I mean, if Lyndon was behind it all, which is my conclusion after many years of research, that would not have been something of which you would have been aware.
No, not at all.
And could there have been other hit teams, other shooters there of which you were also unaware at the time?
If they would have had other shooter teams there, they had to be the worst shots in the world.
Because they couldn't hit the limo.
The limo was not bulletproof.
All those shots, as far as the people claim, the limo should look like Swiss cheese.
And, like I said, they shot the sign, they shot the sidewalk, they shot the grass, the street, and nobody hit Kennedy except for Chuck and me.
So, I mean, if they were shooters, they were pretty bad shooters.
And nobody would in their right mind hire somebody like that.
Very interesting.
And Lansdale, I believe that Lansdale, as he was Grounds Coordinator, I believe when Johnny Roselli was supposed to be the backup for Chuck, he had Johnny Roselli step down, because Johnny Roselli did work for the CA as well, and that's when they had me step in as the backup shooter, because Lansdale knew I had never missed a primary target, and I had done about three jobs for him, privately, before Kennedy.
I certainly have at Lansdale there as well, and believe he was an on-ground coordinator determining, you know, the location of the shooters and the sequence in which the shots would be taken.
Would you agree with that?
Oh, definitely, yes.
Well, in a link to Lansdale, I saw it on the Oliver Stone movie, JFK, not too long ago, that his benefactor was Alan Dulles.
So, and then I heard on the special features... Who's benefactor, Pam?
Were you saying?
Ed Lansdale's benefactor with Alan Dulles.
And then... I have here, by the way, meeting George W. Bush there that afternoon in front of the Book Depository.
He saw him there.
Jimmy saw George Bush there.
In Dealey Plaza.
Yeah.
Yes.
Matter of fact, Pamela took a picture of me standing there at the book depository taking the same pose that George Bush had.
Standing on one leg, one foot up against the wall.
It's on our website.
That was taken years later, of course.
Oh yeah, years later.
Yeah, it was taken last year.
Yeah, 2020.
In August.
But it's on our website if anybody wants to look at it.
It seems to me your life has the makings of a movie, Jimmy.
I could see a whole movie about James Files.
I met with Oliver Stone at Stateville Prison.
I didn't really care for Oliver Stone.
I won't go into the details.
He wanted to interview me.
He wanted to get me a film about Kennedy, and I said no.
Pete wanted to do a movie deal, and I said no.
I don't really want my life story told.
I agreed to talk about the Kennedy assassination, but that was it.
And I didn't want to go any further than that.
I've been questioned enough about the mob in court going to trial many times over.
Yeah, that's all really public.
That's already in the public record.
Yeah, it's all public record, but I've never given anybody up in my life.
So that's one of the reasons why you'd be willing to talk to me about all this stuff because it's all a public record.
Yeah.
And when I was on trial, this last case that cost me 25 years of my life, the one young lady there, she interviewed me and did some research on it.
And on my federal case that I did prior to that for seven years and four months, I was offered a deal to testify against Jerome Bauer.
Out of Pomona, California.
A.K.A.
Three Fingers.
He loves working with explosives.
Because he ratted out a lot of our people.
And they asked me to testify against him.
And I said, no.
They said, if you'll testify against Jerome Bauer.
Because I was the only one that could put him away.
They said, you won't do one day's time in prison.
You can walk.
And I told them, come and see me in prison.
I'll give you the time.
What did you get locked up for, Jimmy?
What did they nail you for?
Well, tell me, whatever put you in the slammer.
I get out, I find him, I say, we'll kill him, but I'll never testify against him.
What did you get locked up for, Jimmy?
What did they nail you for?
On which case, the federal or the state case?
Well, tell me, whatever put you in the slammer.
Well, the first case was running cars and shipping car detections to go to Mexico.
Interstate Act Transportation.
They got me on that one, which is BS, but I did seven years and four months on it.
But this last case for 25 years, we had a shootout in Buffalo Grove, Illinois, and they probably had over 500 cops in a small area looking for me.
I was underwater breathing through a cattail reed.
I cleaned it out and I scratched a hole beneath the tree roots and had my feet under that, my toes under to hold me down, and I pulled myself down by the reeds and backing up breathing through that.
They had three choppers in the air, they had small planes in the air, traffic was backed up to the Wisconsin state line one way, and back east all the way to Chicago.
And I was underwater for like two hours and 45 minutes breathing through a cattail reed.
But what started?
But they, but they, they found you?
Yeah.
50,000.
They found you?
Yeah, they got me.
Yeah, they got me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But they never identified themselves as police.
They just started shooting them.
But once we had the shootout, then other cops were called in and
that's when all hell broke loose.
And like I say, just one of those things that happened.
I was underwater 2 hours 45 minutes.
When I got out, they opened fire on me in the water.
Then one dog found my black nylon jacket.
A piece was floating.
He pulled that.
The cop was like 2 feet from me and hadn't spotted me.
He tripped over my legs like 3 times.
And still didn't know.
He thought he was tripping over a tree limb or something in the water because it was down deep, you know.
And... Once the shooting started, then I come up to the surface and I had buckshot in both hands.
But they claimed that I had been in the water too long and I was suffering, what do you call it when you're- Hypothermia.
Hypothermia, but you don't have bandages.
And they brought me from the hospital and my hands were bandaged up.
They took me back in, made the doctor take the bandages off.
They told the press that I was in there for hypothermia, that I hadn't, excuse me, that I hadn't been shot.
But anyway, that's what I got the time for.
So I went to prison for 25 years.
Did you have to serve the whole sentence?
I served every day of it.
Holy moly, Jimmy.
Here's a parole.
Listen.
Go ahead, Jimmy.
I had 90 days good time coming at the end of the sentence by federal law, by federal courts.
And they called me up before the parole board, before they let me out.
I did 23 years of state bill.
Maximum security prison.
And all the reason I got to leave there was they had a double homicide on me in Pennsylvania.
But the witness against me died before they got me to trial.
Let me shut this off again.
Not a problem, Jimmy.
And then I want Pam to reiterate the names of the books and where you can find the books that give your story, Jimmy, which is a fascinating account.
Yeah.
But anyway, like I said, at that time I went to Stateville, and in Stateville, the last two years I did it at Danville, and the witness against me in Pennsylvania died, and they had me, they Charged me for a double homicide on Teamsters down there.
And that wasn't the guilt, he didn't do it, but, you know, like I said, he found somebody to tell a lie, and they were trying to keep me in prison until I died.
But I did it all in 25 years, and, uh, I got out, and then people were trying to kill me.
That's all in the books also.
Wow, Jimmy.
When he was in Stateville, he had asked me to marry him, and then he asked me to write a book with him, and the first book was this book here, To Kill a Country.
Okay?
See that one?
Yeah.
Okay.
There's a long story behind that.
We'll do a whole show about that sometime.
We'll do more interviews, Pam, and we'll do more interviews and we'll talk about the books and so forth.
So I wrote that one and then I wrote this one here, Interview with History, the JFK assassination when he was still at Stateville.
Through caution to the wind, I just went for it.
Divulge what I was understanding about the conspiracy for the New World Order as it relates to the JFK assassination and then some.
I did a part three in To Kill the Country about that, the Illuminati conspiracy for the New World Order.
We're fighting with that right now.
But anyway, I tried to keep it focused on JFK and Jimmy's story.
And then this is the final book about the JFK that we're going to do.
Pam, tell us again the website where they can get to your stuff.
Okay.
The sign books are on our website, our Weebly website.
Just put our names in.
Pamela Rae, James Files, Weebly.
It'll come right up.
Pamela Rae, James Files, Weebly.
W-E-E-B-L-Y.
B-E-L-Y.
Weebly.
Yeah, Weebly.
It's a free website I had to build.
I had to do all this myself.
Publish, edit, you name it.
I did it all.
That's amazing, Pam.
You did an amazing job.
It was quite the accomplishment, yes.
So, yeah, these books are available.
This book is available on Amazon for all sorts of different prices.
I don't... Jimmy and I don't get anything from To Kill a Country.
There's a long story about that, so...
That's a really long story.
And so, we're going to put out some more books, but in a little bit, our first job right now is to get moved out of Chicago.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And then we'll write more books.
I look forward to our next interview.
Jimmy, this was sensational.
I can't thank you enough.
Thank you, Joe.
Thank you for having us.
We really enjoyed it.
Absolutely wonderful.
There's no way I can tell the story in an hour.
Oh, I got it.
We'll do more, Jimmy.
I can't thank you enough.
This is Jim Fetzer on The Real Deal, thanking my special guests, James Fowles and Pamela Rae, for a wonderful, fascinating conversation this evening.
To be continued.
Thank you both so very much.
We thank you, Jim.
Thank you, Jim.
God bless you.
Thank you so much.
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