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Nov. 20, 2020 - Jim Fetzer

01:57:47

The Fetz Presents (19 November 2020): Ralph Cinque, most controversial student of JFK: Why?

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	Well, this is Jim Fetzer on the Fetz Presents.
	In these two weeks, I'm doing a series of JFK presentations.
	Those of you who caught the conspiracy guy on Sunday watched my latest overview about the assassination and all of its complexity.
	Last Tuesday, I interviewed Gary King, who's hosted the new JFK Show for, I don't know, 325 episodes at the rate of one a week.
	Tonight, I'm interviewing Ralph Sinque, who's the founder of the Oswald Innocence Campaign.
	On Sunday, I'll be playing the first half of a An invitation to the state of Texas to actually conduct an inquest, a formal inquest into the death of our 35th president, which, although required by law, never took place.
	The following Sunday, then, I'll have part two of the inquest.
	Invitation and meanwhile two other on Tuesday and Thursday students of JFK.
	I've just extended an invitation to Larry Rivera and hope he will join me on that occasion.
	But I'm really delighted to have as my guest today, Ralph Sinque, who may be the most controversial student of JFK of all time, for reasons we can't discuss.
	Ralph, I used to think I was controversial until you came along, my friend.
	And I'll tell you, you have made so many wonderful contributions.
	I mean, including convincing me that to identify the man in the doorway, we didn't actually have to nail down the facial features because we could operate, we could make a discerning judgment on the basis of his height, his weight, his build.
	His shirt and his over shirt, which you understood because of your background as a chiropractor, where you work with people who are trying to get their bodies in shape so their clothing will fit better.
	I'll tell you a funny story though, Jim.
	Yeah.
	I actually, in a way, owe a debt of gratitude to Professor John McAdams, accidentally, because he created this graphic, it's a poster, that's supposed to sell the idea that the doorman was love lady and And so it features a picture of the doorman and it also has the most widely circulated image of Billy Lovelady, which you and I don't even believe was Billy Lovelady.
	You're the one who Gave him the name Gorilla Man, but interesting story about how he came about.
	It goes all the way back to Harold Weisberg, 1966.
	He was touring the country, appearing on radio shows, talking about the fact that Lovelady wore a short-sleeved, red and white, vertically striped shirt, and that it was twice written in FBI reports that he said so.
	And what happened was, up till that time, nobody knew anything about Gorilla Man, but on one of the programs that he appeared, these two guys showed up and they said, well, if you look closely at the, what's the name of that compilation that was made, that was circulated around a lot, I forget the name of it, but there was a, it consisted of clips from various motorcade footages, Yeah.
	I forget the name of it, but... D.V.C.
	or something like that.
	Something like that, yeah.
	I had it in the initials like that, right.
	But anyway, there was a, I don't know, about a 10-second clip of what was happening outside the book depository about 15 minutes after the shooting.
	And you see figures there.
	One of them supposedly is Lovelady.
	He's smoking a cigarette.
	And there are a couple of cops at the top of the stairs who are basically controlling the flow of people they're with discretion they're letting people in but most people they're keeping out and so he's standing there and he's smoking and he's looking around and he's supposed to be Lovelady now he can't possibly have been Lovelady because Lovelady told us himself that he left shortly after the shooting he
	And a guy named Bill Shelley went to the railway yard, as many people did, because shots were heard from there.
	And they were actually very bravely, well, most people were very bravely going there just to see if they could see anyone.
	So there was really a horde of people that went there.
	And so Shelley and Lovelady actually left and went as part of that.
	And we could actually see them together walking that way in the couch film, the Malcolm Couch film.
	And when they were done looking around, and they didn't look around very long, they went around to the back of the building, and they re-entered through the back door, and then they ran into Roy Truly, I think, and he gave them some instructions to guard the freight elevator or something, so they were busy doing that, and then shortly after that, Love Lady is actually the one who escorted the policemen up to the sixth floor to look at the sniper's nest, etc.
	So there was no chance.
	It's very damn interesting in and of itself.
	Yes.
	So there was actually, see the people who came up with that phony video just didn't study the, you know, the testimonies and they didn't realize there was no way that Lovelace could have been outside 15 minutes after the assassination, since he was definitely inside the building then.
	And the guy that we see there, the gorilla man, He doesn't even vaguely look like Lovelady.
	He is stouter, and he's got a very weird anatomy.
	He has a condition, actually, that's called forward neck syndrome, where his neck is jutting forward, and his head is pinched back on his neck.
	In chiropractic, that's what we would call it, a forward neck syndrome.
	And the real Lovelady had a nice vertical neck, so even anatomically, it could not have been him.
	Going back to Harold Weisberg then, so they showed up on this radio show and they said to him, no, you see, you're wrong about that shirt because we found an image of Lovelady.
	It was taken shortly after the shooting outside and you can see that he's wearing a long So that's the whole idea of the plaid shirt that arose.
	And the way I like to put it, Jim, is that because of the mistake that was made, that the FBI had to go into the movie business after the assassination.
	Because they faked that footage of Love Lady outside of the book depository 15 minutes after the assassination.
	You mean the fake Lovelight?
	The fake Lovelight, yeah.
	The Gorilla Man.
	They played on the Gorilla Man.
	Yeah, right.
	And then they picked up on the... Go ahead.
	I don't know who the Gorilla Man was.
	Right.
	And I also, I don't know when it was made.
	It certainly wasn't made on November 22nd.
	It could have been made months after the assassination.
	You know, we just have no way of knowing, but it first appeared, it was first noticed in 1966.
	So we would have to believe that this footage existed for three years without anybody, you know, even realizing it.
	And then, if you fast forward to 1977, that was the time of the HSCA, And it was at that time that this other footage miraculously appeared that showed Lovelady sitting at a desk in the squad room in the Homicide Bureau at a time when Oswald was being let in on Friday afternoon.
	And supposedly they all pass Lovelady at the desk there.
	And that's another piece of phony footage.
	In fact, it's really, really bad.
	They really just inserted This figure there at the desk, it's not Lovelady, but he's wearing a plaid shirt and supposedly all these cops are walking by him in a procession.
	And if anybody was actually there, and keep in mind the desk he was sitting at was not really a desk where anyone would sit.
	It was more like a supply table.
	It had papers on it and stationary stuff and forms that a policeman might need to fill out.
	So you really just walked up to the table And you would take whatever you needed.
	But there wasn't any place to sit there at all.
	So they fabricated that whole thing.
	And actually, if anyone were sitting there and they saw this procession, this parade of cops coming toward them, knowing that they had to walk by in a very Narrow, cramped space.
	Anybody with sense would get up and get out of the way.
	You wouldn't just sit there to make them jump over your feet or walk around you, but supposedly that's what the love lady did.
	So they made that footage and that first appeared in 1977.
	But then there was a movie called Three Days That Changed America.
	It was produced by the History Channel.
	It first appeared in 2009, and they had the same, well, it was the same idea of Lovelady in the squad room, but it was a completely different fabrication.
	The character playing Lovelady was a different man.
	In fact, this guy had this long, dark hair that he combed straight back, and he looked very fit, actually, and he reminded me of Robert De Niro in the movie The Deer Hunter.
	So I gave him the nickname De Niro Lovelady.
	That's how I think of him.
	So we have Gorilla Lovelady, De Niro Lovelady.
	And then the other lovelady that was made, the one that was made in 1977, he kind of looks like Barney Fife, so we'll have to call him Barney Fife lovelady.
	So they have all these fake loveladies that they had to come up with, and there's only one reason why they did it, and that was to show lovelady in a plaid shirt.
	And the other thing that makes it so ridiculous, Jim, is that the shirt that Doorman is wearing is not plaid.
	I mean, people have to remember what plaid is.
	Plaid refers to boxes.
	It refers to a checkerboard pattern, either large checks or small checks.
	And that's how Harold Weisberg referred to Lovelady's shirt as being checked or checkered.
	But Doorman's shirt is just vaguely cloudy and it has a scratchy quality and it has no particular pattern at all.
	It doesn't have any boxes whatsoever.
	There are no vertical and horizontal lines crossing.
	It just looks vaguely cloudy and it looks like haze.
	And that's really what it is because what happened was The Alex Jones photo was actually like, I don't know about, well I know exactly how big it was.
	On the negative it was three inches by two inches.
	Three inches wide and two inches tall.
	And the size that Doorman would have been, would have been about as big as the head of a pin.
	And so the images that we have of him are gigantic blow-ups.
	And you know very well that anytime you blow something up, you distort it.
	You can only blow it up so much before you create a lot of distortion, a lot of noise.
	And that's what happened in this case.
	It gets stretched, it gets pixelated, and that's the so-called plaid pattern that we're seeing on the shirt.
	Without that there, and our friend Dennis, what's his last name again Dennis?
	Camino?
	Camino, yeah it is, Camino.
	He applied some filters to remove the noise and the distortion and the haze, the photographic haze.
	And the result was that the shirt doesn't look plaid, it just looks grainy.
	It just looks like it has a grain to it.
	And that's exactly what Oswald's shirt looked like.
	It actually had a very, very fine pattern that was grainy.
	And that's how it looks when you correct for the distortion.
	So, there is no plaid pattern.
	They went to all that trouble to create a plaid shirt for Lovelady to wear under the assumption that doorman shirt is plaid, but it's not plaid.
	So, it doesn't even work at all.
	Ralph, where do they ever come up with that?
	It's so crackpot.
	I mean, the word I like to use, Jim, is arrogance.
	They were just arrogant.
	They thought that people are stupid enough that they'll just believe anything and that They can just pass this off as being valid and it really is ridiculous.
	I think it was desperation and arrogance.
	A member of the chat room that I've been in correspondence with is observing or reporting that his daughter says that the shirt he wore that day was blue And it wasn't red and white stripe but the fact is we know from the FBI report it was a short sleeve red and white vertically striped.
	Well I accept that it was yeah I don't believe that I believe it was red and white and and the reason why is this you see love lady on February 29th it was a leap year 1964 he went to the FBI office in Dallas to do his testimony for the Warren Commission And while he was there, well it may have been a separate incident, but he was called in to the FBI and he happened to be wearing the same clothes that he said he wore that day.
	He was asked to wear the shirt he'd worn that day, Ralph.
	And not only that, Jim, but He had it unbuttoned.
	No, they had it unbuttoned.
	It was stupid.
	It looked stupid, bro.
	It looked ridiculous.
	It did not look... Yeah.
	It didn't gape open the way Oswald's shirt did.
	No, no, no, no.
	It just looked, you know, like it was an unbuttoned shirt.
	It looked silly.
	It looked ridiculous.
	It looked like it was contrived.
	And they took several pictures of him in that shirt, and the obvious intention was to say, look at Doorman, see his shirt, it's open.
	This is the shirt he wore that day.
	And what I really have to say, Jim, is that the two FBI agents who did this photo shoot, it just went over their radar.
	That there was no way that shirt could be the shirt of the doorway man, because it was short-sleeved, and doorman's shirt was long-sleeved.
	So, they really were just laundering in the yard.
	Let me give you a different spin on this thing, okay?
	The director wanted them to identify the man in the doorway, and the director did not want it to be Lee Oswald.
	They brought in Billy, they photographed him, They knew this really wasn't the guy who was sort of leaning out in the long-sleeved richly textured shirt with a t-shirt because he was wearing this short-sleeved red and white vertically striped shirt.
	They just photographed him and reported this was the shirt the man was wearing at the time, identified him as Billy Ludley, and hoped the director wouldn't notice a difference because they didn't want to be sent to Alaska.
	You're funny, Jim.
	But let me say this, that, you know, because I've been thinking about our talk tonight and the things that I might want to say.
	And, you know, I've done a lot of work in a lot of different areas of the assassination.
	Not as many as you've done, but I've done quite a few.
	And I've been at this now for almost exactly 10 years because I started in January 2011 and as you know, it's going to be January 2021 in about six weeks.
	So I'm just about at my 10-year anniversary of, you know, really seriously studying it.
	But even though I've gone into a lot of different areas of it, I have to say that the one that is nearest and dearest to my heart Which I consider to be the most important is Oswald in the Doorway, the one I started with.
	If I might interrupt, Ralph, it was you, when I saw this pastiche, this composite with several figures put together by John McAdams, that I thought initially the man with his face rubbed out, whom I think now may have been Bill Shelley, but was just right ahead of Billy, and where Billy's shirt had been obfuscated, I thought how obfuscated man had to be Lee, and it was you who pointed out to me No, that was the man standing beside him, which we could identify on the basis of the height, the weight, the build, the shirt, and the t-shirt.
	So you gave me a great benefit there, based upon your background in chiropractic, and I think that's one of the great benefits of the collaborative research that I promote, is bringing together people with different backgrounds and abilities.
	Yeah, it really has been a very productive thing.
	But what I wanted to say, what I've been thinking about, is that the reason why this particular issue is so important to me and why I think it actually soars above other issues, for example, the single bullet theory, is because of the fact that it is Oswald's alibi, and if he had lived and if he had gone to trial, and I say that only theoretically because there is no way they would have let him go to trial, Jim.
	I mean, the case against him was a house of cards, you know that.
	Yes, sure.
	All fabricated evidence.
	Yes.
	Totally fabricated evidence.
	And if it had gone to trial, it would have turned into an indictment of the FBI.
	They would have had to have handcuffs ready to arrest the FBI agents at the end of it.
	So there was no way they could let him go to trial.
	But if, theoretically, he had gone to trial, Like any other innocent defendant who pleads innocent, he would have built his case around his alibi, that he could not have done it because he wasn't even in the location to do it.
	He was in the doorway, he was not up on the sixth floor, and his lawyer would have taken the ball and run with it.
	And that would have been the cornerstone of their defense.
	And I want you to think about this too, Jim, and I don't know if you and I have ever discussed this, But I am entirely convinced that the Oswald that we know, Lee Harvey Oswald, who worked at the Book Depository, never met with H. Lewis Nichols, the attorney from the Dallas Bar Association.
	Who went there, supposedly, to see if Oswald wanted a lawyer.
	I don't believe there was anything real about that.
	I'll tell you how I think they pulled it off.
	But first, I want to tell you why they pulled it off.
	They pulled it off because Oswald did a lot of damage at the midnight press conference.
	He was only allowed to speak for one minute, but he spent most of that minute Decrying the fact that Dallas police were not giving him an attorney and he appealed to the public to the whole world for someone to come forward and give him legal assistance.
	Yeah.
	Now that made a big impact and they had to do damage control after that.
	So, that's how they came up with this H. Louis Nicholson.
	What they did was, they brought him in very late.
	People don't know this, but it was very late in the evening.
	Well, or you could say very, very late afternoon, because if you read Louis Nicholson's statement about it, he said he didn't even get the idea to do this until 5 p.m.
	So he got the idea to do it, he thought about it, And then he made up his mind he was going to get in his car, drive to City Hall, see what he could find out.
	So he does that, and you know that it was crowded, you know he probably had to park quite a distance away.
	It was packed with reporters.
	He went in there, and he said he went up to the third floor.
	And he said when he got there, he said he passed Curry's office to Chief, and Curry was in his office with two FBI agents, and Curry knew him, and Curry waved him in.
	So he said he went in there, and he was talking for a while with Curry and these two FBI agents, and then finally it got to why he was there, and he said, well, I really came to find out if Oswald wants an attorney, because everybody heard what he said last night on television.
	So Curry says, all right, let me find out.
	You just wait here.
	I'm going to go up and I'm going to see what I can find out.
	So he goes and then he comes back down and he says, all right, I can take you up to the fifth floor to Oswald's jail cell.
	And you'll be able to speak with him there for a few minutes.
	So apparently he does that, but What time was it by this point?
	Probably well after six now, after everything that's already happened.
	We have footage of Oswald at 620 being taken down to the third floor himself for his Saturday evening interrogation with Fritz and the others.
	So he's no longer in his cell.
	And this is right around the time that Lewis Nichols is being brought up there and so Lewis Nichols goes in there and he said he spent about two to three minutes with Oswald and he asked him point blank, do you want me to get you an attorney?
	And Oswald said no, I'm waiting for Apt, the New York attorney John Apt and Until I find out that he won't represent me or that I can't get him, I'm not going to get anyone else.
	Now that would have been a very, very foolish thing to do.
	I mean, Oswald had no reason to even think that apt had a Texas license.
	He could have only helped indirectly by just sitting at the table with a licensed Texas attorney who would actually have to do all the talking.
	Well, he could have been admitted, you know, on an ad hoc basis.
	But you're right, Rolf.
	If he's got an attorney at hand, he should have leaped on him.
	We could bring an app if they ever get the text.
	Right, exactly.
	And I think that Oswald was smart enough to know that.
	One of the things I like to tell people, Jim, is that...
	Bye.
	We shouldn't let people put words in Oswald's mouth.
	We don't have any recordings in which Oswald said, would somebody call John Abt for me?
	What we have are numerous recordings of Oswald saying that I want an attorney, and he's only spoken generically of wanting an attorney, a lawyer, and his final words to the public at the Midnight Press Conference was, That he wanted someone to come forward to give him legal assistance.
	And that is about as generic as it can get.
	So I do not believe that Oswald was holding out for Abt and Abt alone.
	I think that's just another lie.
	It's an excuse to explain why he would turn down a lawyer.
	But we know that they had Oswald doubles and I think they must have had one there that they put into his cell and said those things to Lewis Nichols.
	And this was all damage control for what Oswald said very effectively at the midnight press conference.
	And if you don't mind, Jim, I'd like to say a little more about that because, and what I'm about to say now, I don't say with certainty, I say it as a speculation, but I have a strong feeling about it.
	And that is, I think there's a very good chance that the purpose of the midnight press conference was to get Oswald killed, that they were going to stage the shooting then.
	I think that's highly probable.
	I think it's very highly probable because, first of all, the idea that they would feel compelled to give a criminal a press conference on them, and especially on the night of the crime, is ridiculous.
	It has never happened before.
	It has never happened since.
	When I think about Oklahoma City, and Jim, I know you've studied Oklahoma City much more than I have, But they eventually did do an interview of Timothy McVeigh.
	It was about a month or so before he was executed.
	It was at the prison in which he was being held.
	And Ed Bradley, the 60 Minutes correspondent, he went there and did a lengthy interview, just he and Timothy McVeigh.
	And that's the closest thing that I can think of to what happened with Oswald.
	But what happened with Oswald was him being paraded in front of the press and given a chance to make a statement and answer some questions and all of this on the very night of the shooting.
	And I say it is preposterous that they would have had any desire or tendency or compulsion to do that.
	We know that Ruby was there.
	He admitted being there.
	Well, there's a question about whether he was actually in the room though, because when we look at the Midnight Press Conference and the images that we have of Ruby in the room, they're all suspicious.
	They all are very, very quirky.
	And for example, in one image, he looks kind of like himself, but he looks about 20 years younger than himself.
	He looks like he's in his thirties rather than his fifties.
	And there's another image, That was found by the man that we refer to as the Wizard.
	It's a piece of footage which shows Oswald, I mean Ruby, in the back of the room at the midnight press conference.
	But what the Wizard determined is that it's just a still image of him.
	That they just placed a still image there, and then as the camera moves, it leaves him.
	So you don't see him for very long, but he never moves.
	And the Wizard is convinced that that was just a still image.
	So the fact that they were putting images of Ruby into the midnight press conference room suggests that the real Ruby either wasn't there at all or he wasn't located in a spot at which he could have possibly have shot Oswald.
	Or that they were setting him up to be the Patsy.
	For the shooting on Sunday.
	But remember, Rolf, I think the most important thing Lee said was in passing to the reporter that he was just a patsy.
	Yes, of course.
	The fact that he got that concept out.
	Right, exactly.
	Anyway, I want to repeat, though, that I think that Oswald was very effective in the one minute that he spoke at the midnight press conference.
	First of all, he sounded so lucid, so civilized, so totally in control, and not the least bit mad, Just for a comparison, he was more calm in his manner and expression than the reporters.
	Yes, exactly!
	He was actually the most tempered person in the room, and he came off very, very well.
	And again, I think he did so much damage to the other side at that conference.
	Oh yeah, the other point I wanted to make was that, and this I think really belies the point I made at first, As to why they really held this is that if they really, really had the belief and the conviction that Oswald needed to have a press conference and that the press deserved to have some alone time with him to question him, why would they cut it off in just one minute?
	I timed it, Jim.
	It's almost exactly one minute that he is allowed to speak before they hustle him off the stage.
	Now, why did they hustle him off so fast?
	It's not like the reporters were getting bored.
	Well, I think they hustled him off so fast because he was doing damage.
	He was impressing them.
	He was sounding very rational, very lucid.
	And he just was not at all sounding like the lunatic gunman that he was supposed to be.
	I think they were starting to say, wait a second, we got to get him out of here.
	This guy is scoring points.
	I think those are very nice points of yours, Ralph.
	I like them, yeah.
	But here's the biggest question of all, Jim.
	Why wouldn't they give Oswald a lawyer?
	Do you know how fast they gave Ruby a lawyer?
	He didn't even ask for one.
	That's how fast they got a lawyer for him before he even asked for one.
	Well, they wanted to make sure Ruby had their lawyer.
	Yes, that's right.
	They did pick the lawyer.
	That's right.
	It was somebody who had worked for Ruby years ago.
	He wasn't currently Ruby's lawyer.
	You know, when you hire a lawyer, well, I guess you could have a lawyer that you have on retainer who's just your lawyer all the time.
	But this guy whose name was Tom Howard.
	He was somebody who had done some civil work for Ruby years ago.
	He was not currently Ruby's lawyer.
	But they had him there and they just told Ruby, well, your lawyer's here, and Ruby accepted it because Ruby accepted everything.
	He was a very passive guy.
	He was a very submissive guy.
	And so they, you know, they pointed him to the guy and said, yeah, he's your lawyer.
	So, you know, Ruby didn't question it, but they were very, very eager to give Ruby a lawyer, their lawyer.
	And they knew very well that There was nothing that Ruby could say that was going to be dangerous to them because Ruby didn't know a thing.
	But they also knew that there was plenty that Oswald knew.
	They knew that he was of sound mind.
	They knew that he knew he didn't shoot Kennedy.
	They knew that he knew where he was at the time Kennedy was being shot.
	They knew that he knew whether or not he owned a rifle or ever ordered one, which he didn't.
	And I'll tell you something else, Jim, and I don't know if you and I have ever discussed this before, but I think it's very doubtful that Oswald even had a P.O.
	Box, because they sold it too hard.
	For example, in the phony note that they wrote from Oswald to Marina, which was supposed to be the fail-safe letter in case he got killed or arrested and incarcerated for shooting at General Walker, which of course you know never happened.
	But they created this phony letter written in Russian, which is supposed to be Oswald's handwriting, in which he gives Marina these 10 things to do in the event he gets killed.
	And the very first thing on the list is, well, remember now, the key to the P.O.
	Box is located here.
	It's hanging on the wall.
	And you remember where it is?
	It's located, it's downtown next to the drugstore that we go to.
	So that's where you can go to get to the P.O.
	Box.
	Well, according to that postal inspector, what was his name?
	Yeah, Hoffman or something like that.
	Yeah, okay.
	According to him, the only mail that Oswald ever got at that PO Box was Russian newspapers and socialist newspapers.
	That's it.
	He didn't even cite any other mail.
	He said he just got Russian and socialist newspapers.
	Now, if Oswald were killed and now Marina has got no husband and she's got a child and she has a baby on the way, what the heck would she need to worry about getting Russian and socialist newspapers for?
	She doesn't have a car, she doesn't have a means to get to that P.O.
	Box, but why would he think that the first thing she needs to do is to get to the P.O.
	Box?
	So I think that they were trying hard to sell the idea that Oswald had a P.O.
	Box because they needed that P.O.
	Box as a way for him to have gotten the rifle.
	You and I both know, I mean, that all was a setup, the whole thing of getting him the rifle, and it had to be an obscure one, because if he really had the intent to assassinate the President, he could have picked up a better weapon on any streetcore in Dallas without even showing ID.
	So this whole thing of being a paper trail...
	At that very time, he could have gone into any Kmart and he could have bought the exact same rifle for about eight bucks.
	No serious shooter would have bought that rifle.
	I mean, it was a piece of junk.
	It was a piece of crap.
	Well, you know, I saw the video in which you were instructing Governor Ventura, I'm trying to make that piece of junk work!
	I really set up the angles and so forth the distances to the bales of hay that were simulating the motorcade so he could see if it were possible and well Jesse's a much better shot than was Lee and he had a far superior weapon and much better Yeah, three replications, three shots dropping off, one hit, one hit.
	And I think it took him about 14 seconds to get the three shots off, something like that.
	And I'm not putting him down because I know I couldn't do it.
	I was the timer.
	I had the stopwatch in my hand, yeah.
	Okay.
	But, no, and here's another fact that not too many people realize.
	That the very first time that they asked Marina Does your husband own a rifle?
	The very first time they asked her, her response was that he used to own one back in Russia and that it got sold before we left.
	That was the very first thing that she said about him owning a rifle.
	Now, obviously, if she knew that he owned a rifle currently, she would not have had to mention that.
	The fact that she resorted to saying that only shows that she was trying to be helpful.
	They wanted to know about her rifle, so she was telling them everything and anything she knew about Oswald owning a rifle, and that was as close as she could get to placing Oswald with a rifle that he Yeah, and actually, Ralph, I think it was a shotgun in Russia.
	Yes, it was.
	It was a shotgun.
	Yeah, and he couldn't hit anything with a shotgun.
	That's what his Russian friend said.
	He couldn't hit a rabbit with a shotgun.
	I think this guy was this great shot, you know.
	Somebody else would shoot one for him just so he could have a rabbit to take home.
	Very good.
	Very good.
	So, and the reason why it was a shotgun is because that was the only kind of rifle that they let you own in Russia.
	You weren't allowed to own a high-velocity rifle.
	So, the whole story of him ordering this rifle, having it sent to a P.O.
	Box in downtown Dallas, And there's been a lot of careful studying done about this.
	For example, the story goes that Oswald just disappeared from work.
	He was working at that photo lab there.
	Child, Stoffel, you know, the CIA connected photo lab in Dallas.
	So the story goes that he just basically played hooky from work, went downtown, And he got a money order from the post office.
	And he got an envelope and he prepared this mailing.
	And then for some reason, even though he had to go to the post office to buy the money order, he ended up mailing it in a post box that was on a street, I don't know, half a mile away, and not even in the direction he was going.
	But that's supposedly where the letter got put into the mail system.
	And then, somehow, miraculously, even though he mailed it that day, supposedly it was delivered in Chicago the very next day.
	Right, right.
	The ridiculous thing about it is that they did not have overnight delivery at any price in 1963.
	You couldn't buy it.
	It wasn't offered.
	It simply was not available.
	So supposedly, we would have to believe that he just put a regular stamp on it, put it in a postbox, and somehow it got delivered to Chicago the very next day.
	And furthermore, John Armstrong, on the very day that this was supposed to happen, he found the work ledger of Oswald at work, the morning that supposedly Oswald played hooky to do this, and he performed nine copying projects, you know, where he had to make duplicates and, you know, make some type of production.
	So he had a busy morning working And it's impossible that he could have done that while also playing hooky and wandering halfway around the city of Dallas.
	You know, so the whole story of him ordering the rifle is just absolutely ridiculous.
	Yeah, let me add a further footnote to what you're observing here, Ralph.
	I got to know Chauncey Marvin Holt, who actually prepared 15 sets of Forge Secret Service credentials for use in and around Dealey Plaza.
	He was working as a contract agent for the CIA at the Los Angeles Stamp and Stationery Store.
	He told me how the CIA has all these assets with his innocuous sounding names, but that this was also the location where they prepared the Alec Heidel identification for Oswald.
	Wow.
	So, and I think that's, they may have been involved in forging the whole, you know,
	making up the whole thing with a money order for the rifle and all that.
	I mean, anyone looking at it objectively, the story's absurd, but if you, you know,
	you're sort of told it in a narrative way, you know, if you don't know anything about weapons.
	Yeah, and they're counting that on most people just not checking up on you.
	And believing what they are told, like they are real today about the coronavirus
	or about Joe Biden being elected president by a nasty vote.
	I mean, Ralph, how dumb are we supposed to be?
	This was a guy who couldn't get 10 people to a rally.
	Well, listen, it was just the other day, Jim, that I actually found these memos that, well, they were released at the time of the document release last year.
	And they're by J. Edgar Hoover.
	They were inter-office memos in which J. Edgar Hoover was lamb-blasting the Dallas police.
	This was after Oswald was killed and he was really just jumping down their throats because, you know, they're the ones who, you know, dropped the ball and letting Oswald get killed.
	And as you know, I think that The Killing of Oswald was a joint Dallas Police-FBI operation and that Jack Ruby was just a patsy in it, so all of this is just theater that he was saying, but he kept going just really just
	Corrie escort corriating the Dallas police for all their mishandling of the case
	And one of the things he said is you know, who are those guys and we're the ones who found all the evidence
	We're the ones who who tracked the rifle and the ordering of it from Chicago
	He was bragging about the fact that they did that when actually
	The whole thing is just you know a complete and total sham And that's why a trial and it would have been very easy for
	Oswald's Lawyer to destroy it at trial to
	Well, just to kick in another note about that, when Will Fritz asked him during the interrogation where he was during the shooting, he said he was out front with Bill Schelling.
	Exactly, exactly.
	For decades we were told there were no notes or records and then we got the Wilfrid's handwritten notes in the Mary Farrell Archive and there it is, his answer.
	He was out front with Bill Shelley which is where he was.
	And you know that was, those notes of course were found in the belongings of Fritz and they were found Actually, ten years after he died.
	He died in 1987, they were founded in 1997, and they were turned over to the AARB.
	And I've often said, Jim, that I think that the finding of those notes is one of the most important finds of evidence in the case, and that, and certainly one of the most important finds In regard to discoveries that were made decades later.
	Suppose instead they'd been turned over to the Sixth Floor Museum, Ralph.
	We would never have seen them.
	They would have disappeared.
	Oh my gosh!
	If turned over to the wrong people, they probably would have been destroyed.
	So we are actually, you know, very, very lucky.
	But Jim, if you don't mind, I would like to change gears a little bit, because I don't want to stay on this for the whole time, and talk about the thing that I consider the second most important thing that I've been involved in.
	Well, Ralph, I know where you're going, and that's where I want to go, too.
	I do want to add a few more points about Billy Lovelady and the effort to make it out as though he were the man in the doorway, which you've already established was rather absurd on its face, though he was in the doorway staying beside Lee with his hands up raised to protect from the sun.
	There was a key player in all of this picking up on the checkered shirt.
	And this is a guy who actually had Billy Lovelady, years later, posing a checkered shirt.
	And he took photographs of him and attempting to make the case that Billy actually was the man in the doorway.
	And he even claimed, as a special consultant to the HSCA, that he had done a pixel study and the pattern on Billy's checkered shirt was closer to the pattern on the man in the doorway than Lee's shirt.
	Which we know is completely absurd, because it was Lee, and it was Lee's shirt, but that guy was Robert Grodin.
	And as you know, when we continue to pursue the man in the doorway, it was Judith Mary Baker, who actually performed a real pixel study of the checkered shirt.
	This has got nothing to do with the vertically red and white
	shirt he actually was wearing at the time.
	It found precisely the opposite to be the case, which, of course, was true.
	Whereas what Grodin said on behalf of the HSC was blatantly false.
	I mean, I'm just pointing out that the role of Robert Grodin here at JFK Research has been duplicitous.
	He is a Benedict Arnold, Jim.
	You know, he has a background in the military, and he was also in U.S.
	military intelligence, and I really do believe he basically was set up to just lead the sheep If you want an irony of ironies, although Judith claims she's dedicated herself, her life to establishing the innocence of Lee, she gave a Lifetime Achievement Award to Robert Grodin who was seeking to implicate him in the assassination as a lone shooter.
	I mean, you know.
	It's a shame.
	No, I gave him no credence at all and he really hasn't been a detriment to the movement.
	But anyway, let me go on then.
	Please, please, please, because Ralph, you have had some such original findings, and what we're about to discuss is so surprising and unexpected.
	I want to hear how it actually came to you.
	All right, I'm going to get into that.
	And of course, what I'm talking about is the innocence of Jack Ruby.
	Of course.
	That's what I'm talking about.
	That's why I alluded to him as a Patsy as well as Lee.
	Thank you.
	I want to first make a very important point, Jim, and that is that in my study of, you know, Oswald and his innocence, that from the very beginning and all along, I, of course, always had a lot of company.
	There were plenty of people who supported that Oswald was innocent.
	And I would go so far as to say that if you look at all of the books written on the JFK assassination, that there are more books defending Oswald and challenging the official story than there are books that support the official story.
	That's how unbalanced Uh, the two sides are.
	So there's plenty of support for Oswald being innocent.
	But when I started advocating that Jack Ruby was innocent, that's when I experienced the fact that not only were there very few people, and I mean like bordering zero, who were in a mental space of recognizing that Ruby was innocent, but that there were plenty of people who got very hostile at the very idea of suggesting that Jack Ruby was innocent, including people who were willing to defend Oswald.
	But if you tried to tell them that Ruby also, like Oswald, was innocent, they would just react with great, great Hostility.
	Like, how could you be so stupid?
	And they would say things like, how can you say that millions of people saw him do it on television?
	And I would say, no.
	Millions of people saw a short, fat, squatty, middle-aged white man in a fedora hat do it on television, but we saw so little of his face that the identifying features From what we can see, don't actually point to Ruby or to anyone else that's certain because of just this generic look that he has and the fact that the captures of him are so obscure.
	But then the other point they make is, all right, but what about the fact that Ruby admitted it?
	Well, that isn't exactly true either, because Ruby just accepted that he did it.
	There's a big difference between saying that you did it and just accepting that you did it, because the only basis on which Ruby accepted that he did it is because Dallas Police told him that he did.
	When asked about How he did it or why he did it or to recall what he did.
	He couldn't do it.
	He said, well, I don't have a memory of doing it.
	And that's how the story started to grow that he went into kind of a trance or that he had a psychomotor epilepsy fit or something because he had no mental image of ever shooting Oswald.
	And I can just imagine the sessions that he had with his attorneys where they said to him, all right, Jack, tell us exactly what happened.
	And what he said to them undoubtedly was, I'm telling you, I don't know what happened.
	All I know is that I went there, I'm standing there.
	I'm waiting around.
	All of a sudden, Dallas police are jumping all over me.
	They're pushing me down.
	I start saying to them, what are you doing?
	I'm Jack Rubin.
	You know me.
	I'm not a criminal.
	That's what he was reported to say.
	Then they dragged him up to the fifth floor.
	And when they got there, they told him that he shot Oswald.
	Now, I want to point out to you that if you or I or any normal person knew that we didn't shoot somebody and if we had the conviction as I'm sure that we do meaning you me and probably everyone listening that the very idea that we could just go and kill someone in cold blood is an impossibility because it is so contrary to our nature that if somebody told us that we did it we would say
	You know, pluck you, and I don't care how many of you cops say, I know very well I didn't do it, and there's no way you're getting away with this.
	We would be adamant, we wouldn't give an inch, and we would stick to our guns that we didn't do it.
	But Ruby was... Well, if I could interject just momentarily... Yes, please do.
	We all thought we saw Jack Ruby shoot Lee Oswald on television.
	Right.
	So what you encountered was the same kind of reaction I encountered when Morgan Reynolds and Judy Wood finally, after beating me around the ears for a year and a half, got me to look at the evidence about the planes in New York.
	And I realized that those were performing impossible feats.
	That what we were seeing there couldn't possibly be real.
	That real planes did not hit the building in New York, which then leads to the analysis of how was it done, which is a complex matter on which I've invested a huge amount of time.
	But what's intriguing to me is whatever triggered off your realization that that guy who was shooting Lee in the basement might not have been Jack Ruby.
	All right, I'll answer that question for you, Rob.
	And in a way it's similar to how I came to realize that it was definitely Oswald in the doorway.
	Because here's how I look at it, Jim.
	I knew that we couldn't see very much of the man that I call the garage shooter.
	That's what I refer to him.
	But there were some things that that I could see of him.
	I could see, for instance, that he was kind of a Pudgy guy.
	He seemed to be very, very thick.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I could see that he had a very, very short neck.
	I could see that he had small ears.
	I also could see in the Jackson photo that he had a very long, thick, curly mane of hair in the back that was so long that it curled up at the bottom.
	And below that, the skin on his neck was razored very, very clean.
	So he had this very clean neck that looked like it was recently razored.
	And you know how it is, Jim, that if...
	If you get a haircut, you know, the barber will clean up your neck and get rid of all that scruffy hair growth.
	Yes, it used to be with a razor.
	These days they just do it with an electric one.
	In the old days, the barbers would actually use a blade.
	Right.
	But if you wait too long between haircuts, what happens is your neck starts looking dirty back there because the hair starts growing back and it has this scruffy look.
	And so you have what I call scruffy hair growth.
	Well, so if you look at the Jackson photo, you see this guy with what looks like a thick rug of hair where it's curling up at the bottom.
	And below that, it looks razored clean, like he just got a haircut yesterday.
	So if that's Jack Ruby, then that means that that's how Jack Ruby's hair also must look.
	Well, all you have to do is look at the mugshots of Jack Ruby that were taken that very day, and you can see that his hair was not like that, that he did have a lot of scruffy hair growth.
	He was probably at least two, maybe three weeks out from his last haircut, and in no way did his hair and back look the same as it did on the shooter in the Jackson photo.
	Now, to me, that's what's called a deal-breaker.
	That's the term I use.
	In other words, that alone was enough to tell me that there is no way that they could be the same man.
	But it's not the only deal-breaker that I found.
	Another deal-breaker was his height.
	Jack Ruby was 5'9".
	That's his height that he said he was.
	And it's also the height that you can read on his driver's license.
	And 5'9 is the same height that Lee Harvey Oswald was.
	So he was the same height exactly as Oswald.
	But if you look at the Jackson photo and the Beers photo, and if you look at the footages of the garage shooter, you can see that he was a much shorter man than that.
	You can see that he's shorter than Oswald by several inches.
	And in the garage, the garage shooter is the shortest man in the garage.
	There is no one who appears to be shorter.
	And I estimate his height to be about 5'6".
	Now, we're looking at about, I don't know, 40-50 men there in that garage.
	5'9 is average height.
	That is the average height of a man.
	How could you have a group of just arbitrarily mixed reporters and cameramen Where the very shortest man in the room is 5'9".
	There's just no way.
	That is too tall to be the shortest man in a room with that many men.
	And he stands out.
	The garage shooter stands out as being the shortest man.
	And I can show you pictures which will prove that.
	So the point is that that's another deal breaker.
	That the garage shooter is just too short to be.
	I got to say again, Ralph, this is where your background as a chiropractor made a difference, because you're used to dealing with this.
	You're used to noticing things that most of us aren't used to noticing.
	It made a difference in sizing up the guy in the doorway and now in sizing up the guy who shot Lee.
	And some in the chat room are just putting two and two together and realizing what you're explaining is how you came to determine That Lee Oswald was not shot by Jack Ruby to determine the identity of the man who actually did shoot him.
	It's fascinating!
	I would bet my life on that, Jim.
	I have no doubts about it whatsoever.
	But yeah, I want to tell you what I did next, because I think this is an interesting trick that I came up with, that when I get an idea that something is probably true, What I like to do, Jim, is I like to find out if anybody else had the idea before I did.
	So I started doing a Google search for Jack Ruby is innocent to see if anybody else ever posted anything that he was.
	And what I found was a Russian man who Went by the name of Maxim Irkuts.
	He is a Russian man who lives in Russia.
	He speaks with Broken English because I have spoken to him now.
	I was able to contact him and I found out that he put up a video on YouTube that is about 14 minutes long in which he makes the case for why Jack Ruby was innocent.
	And he did a great job in that interview.
	Who was that, Ralph?
	Well, he goes by the name of Maxim, M-A-X-I-M, or Kutz, I-R-K-U-T-S-K.
	And he has this video up about it on YouTube.
	And I was able to contact him at the video.
	And I found out from him that it's just an alias.
	He lives in Russia and he is afraid to use his real name because he thinks somebody might try to hurt him for having done this.
	And I said to him, are you afraid that Putin is going to try to hurt you?
	And he said, no, I'm not afraid Putin is going to try to hurt me because he doesn't care.
	He knows that the JFK story is BS.
	But he said, we've got CIA spies in Russia.
	They're basically crawling the country.
	And they're the ones who would come after me and try to hurt me if they knew my identity.
	So that's why I use an alias.
	Now, at the time that I found his video, it was probably about 2014.
	He put it up in 2013 and I think that's quite ironic because as you know that was the 50th anniversary of everything.
	So as far as I know, to this day, he is the first person to have conceived the idea that Jack Ruby was innocent.
	So basically, the people who did this got away with it for 50 years, Jim, a half century, before Maxim Erkuts bit them in the butt and put this very excellent video, Jack Ruby Did Not Kill Lee Harvey Oswald.
	I think that's the name of it on YouTube.
	It only had a few dozen views at the time I found it.
	Now, if you check it, it's got quite a few thousand views, and mainly, frankly, because of me.
	Because I've talked it up, I've put the link for it on my blog many times, and as a result, many more people have seen this.
	Did I miss what was his reasoning for drawing the conclusion?
	Alright, well his reasons for drawing the conclusion were very good.
	He talked about the hairline and back, as I did, being very different on the garage shooter as compared to Ruby.
	He talked about the fact that the real Jack Ruby was practically bald on top and you know there's a picture of Jack Ruby that was taken at the midnight press conference in which you can see him in a very nice suit and he's standing in profile and you can see Jim that he's practically bald on top he has a few very very thin strands of hair but for all practical purposes it's a bald head
	And over the years since then, most of the images that we see of Jack Ruby show him with quite a bit of hair, and they're all a little different.
	Sometimes it's a lot of hair, sometimes it's less, but all of it is fake.
	They started, the impressed started putting hair on Ruby for one reason and one reason only, and that's because the garage shooter seems to have a lot of hair.
	He seems to have a very, very thick mane of hair.
	And therefore, it's just not gonna work if Jack Ruby is bald.
	So that's why they started painting hair, and some of the images are just ridiculous.
	You can see that somebody took one of those, you know, what do you call those black pens that begins with an S?
	A stick pen.
	A stick pen.
	I've got one right here.
	A Sharpie!
	Yeah.
	A Sharpie!
	This is a sharpie.
	Somebody took a sharpie and just ran it over the photo.
	These thick, broad strokes of black to indicate this big black hair going back on Jack Ruby.
	It's all BS.
	He was almost completely bald on top.
	And we actually have a video that proves it because in 1960, he was attending a parade in Austin.
	It looked like a school parade of some kind.
	It had girls and cheerleaders and stuff.
	And at some point he took his hat off and he combed his hair.
	And you see him combing his hair.
	And all he does is he runs the comb across the right side and then he runs his comb across the left side and then he puts the hat back on.
	Because there was practically nothing there!
	In other words, if he had hair on top, he would have combed the hair on top, but he didn't have hair on top, so he just combed it on the sides.
	So he really did not have, and he looked pretty darn bald there in that one, although they put a little tuft in front, which I think was a gimmick that they did there as well.
	So this is what they did to Jack Ruby.
	But there's another point I want to make, Jim, that I think is very, very important.
	And that is, That the people who did this, who plotted this whole thing, and I believe it was the Dallas Police and the FBI, and I believe that the order to the Dallas Police to do this, to kill Oswald, came directly from Lyndon Johnson.
	I very seriously believe that.
	I want you to know that two of those detectives were personal bodyguards of Johnson.
	When he came to Dallas, he would hire them to do his crowd control and to basically be bodyguards for him, even when he was on the stage.
	The Wizard found a photo in which you can see them, Boyd and Sims.
	This was at a some type of political event, a rally, in April 1963.
	So just months before the assassination, there you are seeing Boyd and Sims, two feet away from LBJ on a stage and those two guys ended up becoming Oswald's handlers.
	So he knew them very well, and I bet you dimes to dollars that he paid them very well, too.
	He was thinking ahead.
	I bet you anything they got good, good money for doing that protection.
	They were doing it off-duty.
	I'm not saying they were doing it as Dallas Police.
	They were doing it like as private detectives when they were off-duty protecting Lyndon Johnson when he came to Dallas.
	So he knew them, knew them well.
	And they may have been the contacts he used, but I believe that he contacted the Dallas police and said, look, we have to end this nightmare.
	It isn't fair to the Kennedy family.
	They need to have closure.
	And the American people need to have closure.
	We can't let the whole country be fixated on this for months and months while we're waiting for a trial.
	We need to get moving again.
	The economy is going to collapse.
	We could have a war with the Soviet Union.
	A hundred million could die in a nuclear war unless we get this established and Oswald did it.
	So these are the kinds of things he said.
	And you know all those guys from Fritz on down were former military guys.
	They were used to taking orders and certainly they were going to take orders from their commander-in-chief.
	I don't believe any of them would have on their own had the tendency to kill Oswald.
	But I think that when it was authorized by the President of the United States as an act of patriotism, that they did it.
	And similarly, I think that J. Edgar Hoover got the FBI agents involved, particularly James Bookout, who is the one who masqueraded As Ruby, in the garage, in the televised spectacle.
	But here's the point I wanted to make to you, please let me make it.
	That the guys who planned all this, they realized that a lot of people were not going to believe it.
	That they were going to question it, they were going to just doubt it, they were going to dispute it.
	And they wanted to make sure that those people went the right direction.
	When I say the right direction, I mean in the direction toward Ruby not just being guilty, but super guilty.
	That he not only killed Oswald, but he had a hand in killing Kennedy.
	And that he was a bad guy in, out, and left, right, and down the middle.
	So they started creating this phony biography of Ruby, a phony narrative where he was a mafioso.
	One story has it that he was a bag man for Al Capone back in Chicago.
	They said he was a mafioso in Dallas, that he was a hitman in Dallas, that he was a pimp in Dallas.
	They added that he was a gunrunner in Florida, running guns to Cuba, that he did it in the 50s.
	And you know, the way the gunrunning went, And this is a fact that they were, originally, they were running guns to Castro.
	I don't know if you know that, Jim, but they were originally, the CIA originally, like Castro, they were running guns to him.
	This is before he declared himself to be a communist.
	But then, after he took over and he announced that it was all going to be communist, Then we started running guns to the guys who were going to replace Castro, so this has been a circus.
	But supposedly, Ruby was involved in all of it, that he was running guns to Cuba from Florida and also from Louisiana, and it's all BS, Jim.
	Ruby's life, you could write his biography on the back of a napkin.
	He was born and raised in Chicago, He got involved with his older brother doing these various kind of businesses that they did, all of which were kind of semi-cons jobs.
	I mean, selling goofy stuff.
	Then he went into the military and he had the same job in the military that my father did.
	He was an airplane mechanic.
	He serviced airplanes.
	That's what my dad did.
	Then when he got out of the military, he worked with his brother again a little while, but then his sister invited him down to Dallas in 1947, so just two years after the war, to help her with her nightclub business, and he found that he really liked the nightclub business, and so he basically sort of replaced her.
	He kind of took it over, and And she just stayed on the sidelines.
	And he was involved in several enterprises.
	And at the time of the assassination, he had the Carousel Club.
	And he also had another club, and I forget the name of that one.
	But he was doing them both at the same time, even though we mostly hear about the Carousel Club.
	And another myth that we hear is the idea that Ruby had a lot of money.
	He did not have a lot of money.
	You know, he was Jewish.
	And I like to point out to people that I'm one of the few defenders of a very wrongly accused Jewish man, Jack Ruby.
	And he was a very devout Jewish man.
	He was about as devout as you can imagine.
	And he ran these clubs, but he started them on OPM.
	You know what that is, right, Jim?
	Other People's Money.
	He borrowed money to do it.
	And the only thing you can say about Ruby about money is that he handled a lot of money.
	Yes, he had a lot of cash on him.
	He had like $3,000, you know, on the day he shot Oswald.
	And when you think about how much money that was in 1963, Jim, I mean having $30,000, I mean $3,000 in cash in 1932 would have been all time.
	Okay, we're running out.
	No, no, no.
	I just want to squeeze two comments in.
	No, no, no.
	Look, I love everything you're doing.
	We got plenty of time.
	People might think it sounds odd for Lyndon Johnson be calling about that, but From Carl, Charles Crenshaw was the physician who not only was in trauma room number one when JFK's moribund body was brought in, he was actually the last to see the body when it was wrapped in sheets and put into the bronze ceremonial casket.
	He actually closed Jack's eyes.
	Wow.
	I'm trying to recall if he took off his wedding ring.
	But the fact is that he was two days later responsible for the care and treatment of Lee Oswald.
	Wow.
	And he was astonished when the operator for the hospital reached out to him and said he had a call from the president.
	And he thought this was very unlikely, but he answered the phone and there was Lyndon Johnson's booming voice telling him he wanted a deathbed confession.
	And Crenshaw explained that actually Lee had taken a turn for the better and he didn't even think he was gonna die.
	But Johnson was insisting, he said there'd be a man there to take the deathbed confession.
	And when Crenshaw got back, There was a very sinister looking guy in a trench coat, whom I believe was David Sanchez Morales, who was really more or less operationally on the ground at least managing the vans.
	But Oswald took a turn for the worse and there was no confession.
	But I'm just making that point about Lyndon getting personally involved because this whole thing really... Don't you agree that if it's conceivable that Lyndon Johnson could call a doctor at the hospital, that it's conceivable he could call You know, that's what I'm putting in.
	Okay, good.
	Yeah, this is confirmation.
	Yes, and I agree that it is confirmation that Johnson would have done it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, then there was a hands-on guy, and this was his off, basically.
	Now, the other point I wanted to make was that Lee and Ruby didn't know each other.
	Beverly Oliver, as you may know, who was a singer at another club, would come over to the Carousel For relaxation and friends she knew there.
	And on one occasion Jack said, here I want to introduce you to Lee Oswald, my friend from the CIA.
	In Beverly, when she and I were together with Aubrey Reich on Jesse Ventura's America Show talking about the assassination.
	Well, she talked about seeing his brains blown out the back of his head.
	Aubrey talked about feeling the big cavity when he helped to raise the body to put it in the bronze ceremonial casket.
	And I explained how David Mannick had discovered how they patched the hole at the back of the head, which Clint Hill had described very vividly, you know.
	And amazingly, it's even in the Kennedy Detail book, how they could allow that in there amazes me because it contradicts the whole official account.
	But Beverly was, you know, sad then.
	She didn't know what it meant, you know, that he was with the CIA.
	But they knew each other, as I'm certain you were aware.
	I just wanted to add that.
	Oh, well, thank you.
	For the benefit of our chatroom and audience.
	But this is the point that I've been kind of leading up to is this.
	So they had this whole false narrative.
	And another item that goes on the false narrative is that Jack Ruby was a spy for Richard Nixon back in the 40s and there's a letter in which... Oh, there was supposed to be a private investigator for Nixon when he was on the House Un-American Activities Committee.
	Right, but Jim, the letter, if you read the letter, in the letterhead there's a zip code and the letter was sent in the mid-1940s and zip, do you know that zip codes were not introduced until 1960?
	Yeah, but this sounds like the kind of sting they played on Dan Rather, you know, when he had this fitness report on George W. Bush from the Texas Air National Guard.
	He verified it with a commanding officer.
	He would have gone through it verbatim with a secretary who typed it.
	But after they presented it, the Bush people immediately responded that it had been typed on a typewriter that had a ball that wasn't in existence at the time of the letter.
	They'd gone into the archive, they knew this was going to come out, and they'd had it retyped.
	It was verbatim correct.
	Dan Rather had them by the short hairs, but Karl Rove and this woman who was working with him had gone in and had it retyped.
	Wow.
	I think what you're talking about is something similar.
	I believe actually Ruby didn't work.
	I think Ruby did work for Nixon on the Un-American as an investigator.
	But here's the point I wanted to make, Jim, is this.
	Basically, they knew ahead of time that there was going to be a conspiracy crowd who would reject the idea that Ruby just shot Oswald because he was sad about Jackie having to come back to Dallas to testify or that kind of stuff.
	They knew that people were going to reject that.
	The main thing they wanted to ensure is that nobody went to the mental space of realizing that Ruby didn't do it at all, that he was mentally impaired, and he was manipulated to think that he did it.
	They didn't want anybody going there.
	So they created a lot of stories just so that people would go the other direction and say that Ruby was involved in killing Kennedy and that Ruby was just a bad guy in numerous ways for being a mafioso and a pimp and a hitman.
	He had people murdered or maybe murdered people himself.
	And they did all this and people started eating it up.
	And so most of the people who have disputed the official story of the Oswald shooting, the way they've done it is to say that, well, yes, Ruby did it, but it wasn't, but it was a conspiracy where he was working with the Dallas police to kill Oswald, or he was working with the mafia to kill Oswald.
	And, uh, and it wasn't, uh, It wasn't just him acting alone.
	You know, Rolf, until you brought it up and we featured you on the new JFK Show laying it all out and I became convinced you were right, the idea that it had not been Jack Ruby who shot Lee in the basement had never crossed my mind.
	But the point I wanted to make is that so when people would start going on about all his misdeeds and And just the idea that he was in conspiracy with the police and with the mafia, and that that was the basis of the killing of Oswald.
	The point I want to make is that that was music to the ears of the people who really did it.
	They love those conspiracy guys.
	They just absolutely I applauded them because they were taking the minds of the public even further away from the truth, which is that Ruby didn't do it.
	And this has become a very concerted effort.
	It's been very Machiavellian.
	Just two years ago, they released Well, it actually had to do with the documents that came out.
	They released this memo that said that there was this guy named Bob Vanderhorse, who was sort of a, just a, just somebody who Oswald, I mean, who Ruby vaguely knew.
	They weren't really friends, but they were acquaintances, okay?
	And you know the difference between an acquaintance and a friend.
	So the story went that this Bob Vanderhorse, or Vanderboss, or something like that, That Ruby invited him to come to Dealey Plaza to watch the fireworks in Dealey Plaza.
	Meaning, implying that Ruby knew that there was going to be a shooting in Dealey Plaza.
	And supposedly the two of them stood and watched the assassination together.
	And that this came out supposedly in 1977, although it got buried in the documents.
	And then the story went on... Ralph, could you please repeat that point?
	There was a comment in the chat room to which I was replying that I want to raise with you, but I miss that.
	Who watched it together?
	Well, he was a petty criminal.
	His name was something like Bob Vander...
	Yeah.
	Vanderhorse or Vandervor, something like that.
	He was considered a petty criminal in Dallas, but a friend of Jack Ruby or an acquaintance of Jack Ruby.
	And he claimed that he and Jack Ruby watched the motorcade together on, on November 22nd.
	Where, where were they at the time?
	He claimed that they were right across from the postal annex.
	So basically, you know, Maine and, and, uh, Houston, something like that.
	That's what he claimed.
	Now, Ruby claimed that he was in the Dallas Morning News building, tending to his ads, and there's a total of 10 witnesses who reported seeing him there.
	Secretaries and other people who were in the building at the time, who confirmed that he really was there.
	But this Vanderhorse said that he was with him and that Jack told him in advance that there were going to be fireworks.
	And then he said that shortly after that, he got arrested for one of his petty crimes, because that's what he was, a criminal, and that he was put in the Dallas County Jail.
	And then he claimed to interact with Jack Ruby in the Dallas County Jail, because they were there at the same time, and they talked about it further, and he said he got to know him better there.
	Well, that was complete BS, because the fact is that they segregated Ruby from all other prisoners at the Dallas County Jail.
	He never interacted with other prisoners.
	He had a private suite, you might say.
	It wasn't fancy, but it was private.
	And the only ones who interacted with Ruby were his police or his sheriff handlers, and anytime he had visitors.
	And supposedly, The Bob, Bill Decker, the Sheriff of Dallas County would visit him once a week just to see if he was comfortable and whether he needed anything.
	But those are the only people that visited with Jack Ruby when he was in the Dallas County Jail.
	So there's no doubt in my mind That this Bob Vanderloss or Vanderhorse was lying, and that this was just another fake story.
	But the U.S.
	media ran with it.
	All of the big outlets, starting with CBS, started publishing this, and they just published it point-blank, even though it contradicted the official story.
	But I believe that they did it because they... Again, this is something that It was a very safe place for conspiracy theorists to go.
	That if you wanted to doubt the official story of the Oswald shooting, that if you want to heap more criminality on Jack Ruby and just have him deeply involved in the JFK assassination, and deeply involved with other nefarious people, That that was okay as long as you kept it that Ruby did the shooting.
	That's all they care about.
	They don't care if you want to think that he was more complicit.
	They just don't want you to go anywhere near the fact that he was innocent.
	That was the main thing that that's all that they really care about.
	So Ralph, you do not believe then that that Jack Ruby was actually the local arrangements chairman for the mob who came into town to have anything to do with it?
	Or that there was a dramatic increase in telephone calls from Chicago for example?
	I will answer that for you.
	There was a mafia in Dallas and and I think that And they were very involved in the nightclub business.
	And I think that Ruby, you know, he knew a few people, like, for example, the guy who owned the Elephant Club, which was another club.
	And, you know, he, I mean, he had, you know, some acquaintances with them, but He wasn't involved in mafia operations and he certainly wasn't involved in killing people or pimping people.
	And as far as the calls, he had made a couple of calls To, I guess, somebody who was a mafia lawyer or something.
	And it had to do with some of his employees who were trying to start a unionization at the Carousel Club.
	And he knew that the mafia was involved with unions.
	And so he was looking for advice, looking for information.
	But I think all of that stuff is a gross exaggeration of Ruby's involvement with the mafia.
	He really wasn't.
	He really was just what he claimed to be.
	This two-bit guy, he was running a couple of nightclubs and trying to make them work, and that was really his only concern.
	And there just was really no truth to all these other stories that were being told about him, including the idea that he threw people down the stairs.
	That's another popular story.
	Oh yeah, that he was supposed to be short, tampered.
	short tempered, violent, threw people down the stairs. The people were in his club and if they,
	he was the bouncer in his own club and if somebody was making a racket or something,
	he would throw them down his stairs. Now, why would he do that? If he was going to throw them
	anyway, throw them out the door. He was going to get rid of them, not dig them deeper into
	his basement. But he was on very good terms with the Dallas police.
	Yes, he was!
	They would frequent the club, which was one of the principal centers of entertainment.
	He was a very generous guy by nature.
	He gave money.
	Every time there was a fundraiser at the Dallas Police, he gave money.
	Some cop got killed, he'd give money to the widow.
	Christmas would come along, he'd give expensive bottles of booze to all the different cops.
	And some of them he'd give money to, but if they wouldn't take money, he would give them these expensive bottles of booze.
	And I think it's a very curious thing that he was so enamored with the Dallas police.
	And I have a suspicion that it may have been fostered through hypnosis, Jim.
	Because, you know, you remember the original movie, The Manchurian Candidate?
	that there was this this platoon leader or battalion leader in the Korean War whose name was his name was I think something like Richard Shaw and all the men in his platoon were brainwashed to think and say that he is the kindest, gentlest, most loving human being that has ever walked the face of the earth.
	And actually, they thought just the opposite of him.
	They hated his guts.
	They thought he was a real a-hole.
	But yet they couldn't help themselves but to say this very nice platitude about him.
	And it's because they were brainwashed by the Russians when they were in Korea to say it, including Frank Sinatra's character.
	I've never heard that line, maybe I just missed it, but Sirhan Sirhan was most certainly the subject of hypnosis by a CIA-associated psychiatrist who even bragged about it.
	I'm sure you're better read on Sirhan Sirhan than I am, but from what I've read, and it's quite a bit, I consider him an MKUltra subject.
	Yeah, yeah, he's a good candidate.
	He fired shots, but it was a distraction.
	He was spending weekends at this horse ranch, and I'm sure it was a horse ranch, but it wasn't a regular horse ranch, where people had lured him by saying, you know, you're small, you're light, you could be a jockey, you don't have to be shoveling shit here at the At the barn cleaning up after the horses.
	You can be riding the horses!
	So we're going to have you come out to our horse ranch on the weekends.
	We're going to train you in riding thoroughbreds.
	And you're going to become a horse rider, a horse racer, a jockey.
	And he started doing that.
	And that's where the drugging started.
	And I believe that's where the hypnosis started.
	So he was MK Ultra.
	And I believe that Jack Ruby was MKUltra.
	I also believe that Marina Oswald was MKUltra.
	I believe that the way they got her to say all those things about Oswald and to reverse all the things she said on the 22nd, and I'm speaking about in February when she testified to the Warren Commission, was they basically had about They had about two and a half months to basically get her into condition to say what they wanted her to say to the Warren Commission, and I believe it was an intensive
	Mind-washing, brainwashing process.
	Well, they had a woman, you know, who was a keeper, Priscilla Johnson, who would write a book about it.
	Marina was not a native English speaker.
	No.
	And they were threatening her with deportations.
	I don't think it required any hypnosis or whatever.
	She was subject to pressure anyway.
	Well, here's the thing, though, Jim.
	I mean, she said some wild things about Oswald and his rifle, and that he was going to shoot Nixon, and she said a lot of wild things.
	So the question arises, was she just lying to them, or To some extent, did she believe it?
	I mean, not fully, but on some level, did she actually believe what she was saying?
	And I think that on some level, she did.
	I think that they drilled it into her so many times, so many ways, so many people over and over again, that she got to where she could say it with a certain amount of credibility.
	Because if she didn't have that, then it would have been just take her being an actress, being able to just lie and And I don't think she was that good of an actor.
	So, I have to wonder what they did to her during that period of time that she was being detained.
	Now, in Ruby's case, we know that there were drugs involved, Jim.
	We know that he was taking a high dose of amphetamines.
	He thought he was taking it for diet control.
	And we know that on the day of the Oswald shooting, that he said he took twice his usual dose of diet pills, meaning the amphetamines.
	And then he said that he took several other large tablets.
	Now, what were they?
	And why did he put it that way?
	It seems like if he was going to write it, he would say what he took, why he took it, how he took it.
	But he wrote this narrative with the help of a Hollywood screenwriter whose name was, well I forget his name, was something like Woodward or Woodfield.
	He was the guy who wrote the screenplays to the original Mission Impossible television series.
	They brought him in to help Ruby write his narrative.
	Ralph, while it's on my mind, there are two points about the shooting that you have made so clearly in other contexts that would help our audience understand what actually happened in the basement.
	Number one, that went after the shooting, they took the shooter, supposedly Jack Ruby, and they just enveloped him so no one could actually see his face.
	They covered his face.
	And the other is, they had previously taken Jack to a room and had him remove all his clothing so that Bookout could actually put the clothing on when he shot.
	Right, okay, that is true.
	Now, it's written in several books, including the one written by Ruby's own attorney whose name was something like Gentry.
	I forget his first name.
	And also even the book that that Bugliosi wrote, Reclaiming History, which is a horrible tome spewing out the official story again.
	But even Bugliosi admitted that for some reason they stripped Ruby to his drawers up on the fifth floor and kept him that way for hours with no explanation given.
	But I think that the answer is that they wanted to do two things.
	First of all, they wanted to give his clothes to book out to wear during the shooting so that the shooter was wearing Ruby's clothes.
	But the second thing was, Ruby had some receipts in his pocket from the Western Union that showed the time that he sent the money wire of $25 to Karen Carlett to help her out Because she was in urgent need of cash just for food.
	And of course the receipts that he had in his pocket showed the real time that he sent them, which I believe was probably about 10.15.
	Now they had to get those receipts in his pocket and they had to replace them with phony receipts that showed 11.15 or 11.17, something like that.
	And that's what they had to get his passport to replace those receipts, because when Ruby testified to the warrant commissioners, he said that he sent the money order at 10.15.
	A lot of people don't know that, but that's what he said.
	And as soon as he said it, there was a Secret Service agent there, and I forget his name, but he was from California, And he wasn't even in the state of Texas on November 24th.
	But he quickly corrected Ruby and said, no Jack, it wasn't 10.15, it was 11.15.
	And Jack said, are you sure?
	And the guy said, yes.
	And Ruby accepted it, because Ruby accepted everything.
	He was extremely docile, he was extremely submissive, especially to authority, to the police.
	But the fact is, his recollection was that he sent it at 10.15.
	And his receipt would have shown that, so they had to get that receipt away from him and replace it with one that said the time that they wanted it to show, which was 11.15.
	But let me make a point about what you said before that, about Ruby being swarmed by the police.
	Well, when I say Ruby, I mean the garage shooter who supposedly was immediately swarmed by the police and escorted or you might say danced into the jailhouse, into the jail office of the police department.
	Now my father was a policeman for something like 45 years, first in New York City, then in the small city of San Fernando, California, And then he finished his career working for the LAPD.
	And he was on the streets during two riots.
	He was in the streets in 1964 for the Harlem riots, and he was in the streets again during the Rodney King riots, whenever year that was, in Los Angeles.
	Now, the point that he made to me, and he's long dead now, but the point that he made to me was that police If they have a violent offender in front of them, they don't take him anywhere until they get him in restraints.
	You don't think about moving the man anywhere until you know he has been restrained to where he cannot hurt anyone, neither you, nor himself, nor anyone else.
	Usually by being manacled behind his back.
	Right.
	And they do that on the spot, Jim.
	They don't take him somewhere and then handcuff him.
	They handcuff him first, and then they take him somewhere.
	But in the garage, what they supposedly did was take this violent man who just shot somebody And they dragged him into the jail office, and then inside the jail office, that's when they finally put handcuffs on him.
	And that is ridiculous.
	I will tell you right here and now that that has never happened before or after in the entire history of police work, going back to the first formal police department in the United States, which was in Boston, Massachusetts back in the 1700s.
	Never would they actually move the violent offender somewhere and handcuff him later.
	They will handcuff him on the spot, and then they'll take him wherever they have to take him.
	So why did they do it the other way in the garage?
	Well, they did it that way because if they had done it the way they were supposed to do it, where they put him in handcuffs on the spot, Well, now there would have been no reason not to just clear the crowd, lift him up.
	He's handcuffed behind his back.
	He can't hurt anybody.
	He's been incapacitated.
	Now you can just calmly take him wherever you want to take him and there's no need to struggle anymore because he's in handcuffs.
	But they couldn't do that because if they had done that, then you would see who he was.
	You would have seen his face.
	You would see that he was not Jack Ruby.
	So they had to do it the way they did it, which was to just swarm him, mob him like a bunch of penguins.
	And the reason I call them penguins is because I saw March of the Penguins, which is a documentary about the life of the Emperor Penguins.
	And basically what they do in the winter to get through that Antarctic winter, where it's like minus 60 below, is that they swarm together.
	They just swarm together where they're all crowded together and they kind of dance around a little bit because moving around a little bit helps keep you warm.
	And then what they do is they actually Dance the crowd because obviously the penguins in the middle are going to be the warmest and the ones on the periphery on the outside are going to be the coldest.
	So they do this dance where they actually rotate, where the guys in the middle come out and go to the outside of the circle and then they all keep dancing around until they take turns being on the outside As opposed to the inside and so it keeps them looking like a swarming mob.
	So that's what these cops who were swarming Ruby looked like.
	The way they were just swarming all around him and everybody's moving and everybody's jostling.
	Until they finally get him to go inside this very, very narrow door to get him into the jail office.
	But the other thing about it is ridiculous is this, Jim.
	How did they know they were doing that?
	It's not as though somebody yelled, okay, let's take him into the jail office!
	Everybody now!
	That's our goal!
	We're moving him into the jail office, the corner door, Everybody please push him in that direction and let's get him through that door!
	No, nobody said that.
	In complete silence and without any guidance whatsoever, that's what everybody did.
	How did they know that?
	They knew it because it was all planned ahead of time.
	They were told ahead of time that that's what they were going to do.
	Jump on top of him, keep him covered, keep him huddled, keep him covered up, and then we'll push him back to that door and get him inside.
	And then supposedly as soon as they got him through the door, they pushed him down to the ground, And at the same time, three detectives finally got the idea to take out their handcuffs, this is my surrogate for handcuffs, and try to put them on them.
	And I forget whose handcuffs they finally used, but it was one of them.
	But supposedly, they finally, the light bulb went on in their head, yeah, maybe we gotta handcuff this guy.
	And so they pushed him down to the ground and put handcuffs on him.
	And then supposedly they walked him up to the fifth floor and that's where supposedly they told him that he shot Oswald.
	But there's another thing that they did that was very, very stupid.
	Obviously, the shooter was wearing a suit jacket in the garage.
	Supposedly, they got him through the door, pushed him down, put the handcuffs on him, And then walked him up to the fifth floor.
	But the problem is that the WFAA footage of Ruby shows Ruby in just a shirt, no jacket.
	So how did the jacket come off?
	If they put the handcuffs on him, he had the jacket on.
	And once he had the handcuffs on, you couldn't get the jacket off unless you remove the handcuffs.
	So how could he possibly be in just a shirt?
	Very nice.
	We would have to imagine them getting him into the jail office and then saying, well, you know something?
	We need to put him in handcuffs, but let's get that jacket off him first.
	Yeah, we don't want to have a jacket.
	Let's quickly, come on, help me get, you take out the right sleeve.
	I'll take out the rest sleeve.
	Let's get, pull that jacket off.
	All right, now the jacket's off.
	Now let's get those handcuffs on him.
	I mean, It's just preposterous.
	And what I attribute it to is just that when they come up with these phony narratives and they're creating these phony stories, that stuff falls through the cracks.
	They just don't think of everything.
	They just lose stuff in the shuffle.
	And they just don't consider everything.
	They don't think it through 100%.
	And that's why you wound up having Jack Ruby being led upstairs in just a shirt.
	And they had this button torn off his shirt so the shirt is, you know, all sprawled open.
	And the idea behind that was that the ruckus of the fighting did that.
	But why would the ruckus of the fighting do that if he was wearing a button jacket?
	Why would his shirt get all destroyed if he was wearing a jacket over the shirt and they were just handling the jacket?
	So even the torn shirt didn't make sense.
	So everything about the story is just plain ridiculous and it really is just A complete house of cards.
	It's just absolutely a joke.
	So I want, we're nearing the end here, Jim, and what I want your readers to know is, and your listeners to know, is that Jack Ruby, he was innocent.
	He did not shoot Oswald.
	The garage shooter was an FBI agent whose name was James Bookout.
	He was a short man, five foot six, same height as a garage shooter.
	He was wearing a toupee.
	That's what accounts for that long, thick mane of hair that curled up on the bottom.
	He was wearing a wig underneath his fedora hat.
	And he did not actually shoot Oswald.
	It was all just theater.
	Oswald was not shot in the garage.
	Oswald, I believe, was shot in the police department.
	They must have had a room set up Somewhere there, where they soundproofed it.
	And plus they probably used a 38 that had a silencer on it.
	And I looked it up and they did have silencers for 38s in 1963.
	And I believe that they did a surgical shot on him.
	Meaning that the accuracy of that shot was determined in advance to do maximum damage and to basically make him bleed.
	They shot it to where it blew out his major blood vessels, his abdominal aorta and his vena cava.
	And it also, they shot it kind of at a downward angle so that it would go through the pancreas.
	It went through the right kidneys, right kidney.
	It went through the spleen.
	These are all highly vascular organs, Jim.
	And you know, That's one of the reasons why, you know, if a football player gets clipped in the kidney, they will often operate and remove the kidney because they're afraid the person's going to bleed out just from the damage to the kidney.
	The kidney is so highly vascular that trauma will often cause irreparable bleeding.
	So they designed, they absolutely knew what they were doing and they gave him a shot that would cause maximum hemorrhaging.
	And of course, we know that that's what happened.
	Oswald did hemorrhage out.
	And I really believe, Jim, that he was, for all practical purposes, dead when he arrived at the hospital.
	I mean, he had a very, very, very slight heartbeat.
	He had no blood pressure.
	They actually replaced more than his full body of blood.
	They gave him something like, I don't know, eight quarts of blood.
	I mean, they actually put more blood in him than he had even on a healthy day.
	And the reason why they did that is they knew he had a lot of holes in his vascular system and and so they just kept putting blood in him because they knew that blood was also leaking as it was because until they started sewing things up he was going to continue leaking.
	So they actually replaced his entire body allotment of blood and then some.
	Which tells you that basically he was completely bled out.
	He must have been white as a sheet.
	He was so bled out.
	And I really think that they timed everything to get him to the hospital at a point in time when it was too late for doctors to save him.
	They were going to make absolutely sure that he died that day.
	So they got him there when he was alive, but so barely alive and irretrievably.
	Because what happened, Jim, was they did get him sewn up.
	They did a very heroic job, those cops.
	They got him sewn up.
	They got him filled up with blood.
	And he developed some blood pressure.
	And at first, it seemed like his heart was starting to respond and to beat more strongly.
	But then it started failing again.
	And the reason why is because He went too long without blood.
	The damage was too great.
	His heart cells had been deprived of oxygen too long that they were overwhelmed with the workload and they could not do it.
	And he started going into heart failure again.
	And ultimately, it was just too late.
	They couldn't save him and his heart stopped.
	And he was gone.
	So again, this was an action of the Dallas Police in concert with the FBI.
	And I believe that LBJ and J. Edgar Hoover were directly involved.
	Johnson, he's the one who got the Dallas Police to do it.
	Hoover is the one who got his own men involved, like Bookout and And there were others that were there, but it was mainly Bookout who was involved.
	And this was something that they did because they knew that Oswald could not go to trial.
	Not only could Oswald not go to trial, Oswald could not even be allowed to see an attorney.
	Because if they let Oswald see an attorney, they would have had to kill the attorney.
	That attorney would have been loaded in just 30 minutes time with so much incriminating stuff against the FBI that they would have had to kill the guy before he went public.
	Yeah, let me just mention, by the way, that Oswald was working as an informant for the FBI at this time, so his whole history.
	He appears to have been recruited by the Office of Naval Intelligence as a recruit in San Diego, and then, you know, stationed at Atsugi, and then did a pseudo-defection, and then when he came back to the U.S.
	I agree with you about that.
	It was a pseudo-defection.
	He was just pretending, and And you also, I'm sure, know about that on Saturday evening, he must have told interrogators.
	Now, this is something that I don't know, maybe no one else says, but I really think, Jim, that at some point, the interrogators started lying to Oswald and saying to him, look, Lee, we believe you.
	Okay, we know you didn't do it.
	And we're going to get you out of this, but we can't just say that you're innocent and let you go because there'll be a lot of people who don't believe it and they'll come gunning for you.
	So the only way we can protect you from attackers is by staging this phony killing of you so that then we'll secret you out of the building.
	But we're going to have to go through this.
	And I think that he believed them.
	But I think on Saturday night, he started telling them, look, there's a guy in North Carolina.
	I was out there.
	And there's an intelligence agent named John Hurt, who will tell you that I work with, you know, naval intelligence, and I, there's no way that I could ever have been, I'm a patriot, I would never have gotten involved in killing the president.
	And, and you know that on Saturday night, he tried to call John Hurt in North Carolina.
	And the Dallas switchboard would not let the call go through.
	And I think it's because, you know, the cops and the FBI were telling them, don't let the call go through.
	But I think that Oswald used John Hurt as a character witness.
	That's what I'm going to, how I'm going to put it.
	He used John Hurt as a, as a character witness.
	And I really do believe that by Sunday morning, it was all planned that Oswald was Gonna get shot in the garage.
	And they created the phony story that they had a two and a half hour interrogation on Sunday morning.
	But really, they were taking those pictures of him, like the Jackson photo in the garage.
	And it was already decided what they were going to do.
	And I think Oswald unfortunately believed them and went along with it.
	But once they got him inside the garage, I mean, the police department, they did kill him.
	They got him shot.
	And like I say, they planned it all.
	They took a circuitous route to the hospital, turning left on Commerce instead of right.
	All they had to do is jog about 200 feet to the right, go up Hardin, and it would have put them on a straight shot to Parkland Hospital.
	Instead, they went left on Commerce, went all the way down to the Pearl Freeway, went up the Pearl Freeway, just one exit to Main Street, then got off on Main, And came all the way down Maine back to Hardin.
	So basically they traveled about three miles to go around the block.
	And they did that stall.
	That's the best way to let him bleed out it would appear, yes.
	Right, they just wanted him to bleed out.
	They just wanted to give more time for him to bleed, bleed, bleed, bleed, bleed.
	And as a result they...
	They made sure that he got to the hospital when it was too late for doctors to save him.
	They couldn't take a chance, because if doctors had saved him, then what were they going to do?
	Create another pretext for him to get killed?
	Who was going to believe that?
	Even the most gullible American wasn't going to believe that if it happened a second time.
	So, they knew this was their one and only shot to get him killed, and they were going to do it.
	And they had to do it that time, because you see, if they had taken him to the Dallas County Jail, How are they going to deny him a lawyer?
	I mean, at that point, everyone would have realized that they were denying his constitutional rights.
	So they had to get him killed before they were forced to give him a lawyer.
	And that is what they did.
	But Jim, listen, I want to thank you.
	I know it's about 10 o'clock now, but it's been very, very interesting talking to you.
	The time has gone very fast.
	I want to thank you for having Help me found the Oswald Innocence Campaign.
	I thank you and Larry Rivera the most.
	And to this day, we have the largest organization, I think, of Oswald defenders in the world.
	And as you know, we have many accomplished members.
	The late Jim Mars, of course, is a member.
	The late Mark Lane is a member.
	The late Vincent Solandre is a member.
	But they were all alive when they joined, and we're very honored to have them with us.
	And every bit as much, I'm honored to have you.
	So thank you, Jim, and I have enjoyed our talk this evening.
	Well, let me just say, Ralph, what wonderful things you have done here, including the rather remarkable feat of providing evidence to establish the innocence of the two key players who were assumed to have been the killers on 22 November and then 24th.
	Lee Oswald, on the one hand, Where you made a masterful contribution of confirming his presence in the doorway, not on the sixth floor.
	So he not only could not have been the lone demented gunman, but could not have been one of the shooters.
	And then most unexpectedly, With regard to Jack Ruby, honestly, I think, Ralph, but for you, I don't think anyone would have really figured this out.
	You mentioned the one guy.
	Yeah, right.
	It was one of those cases of isolated knowledge that never became influential because it was never publicized.
	I put it on the map, anyway.
	You did, you did, you did.
	And then you made, of course, Lee's Innocence a centerpiece of the Oswald's Innocence campaign, where all of us who have joined agree his innocence is established by his presence on the doorway of the Book Depository.
	And I'm so glad that you and Larry and David will be my three speakers on JFK at the False Flag and Conspiracies 2020 conference which will be virtual available online.
	Everyone here who would like to become familiar with some of the best students, best researchers, best investigators of false flags Of whom I most certainly include Ralph Zinkai.
	You want to check out the lineup, because it's really fantastic.
	Thank you very much, Tim.
	I'll put it here in the chat.
	What's the date?
	The 5th and the 6th of December.
	Okay.
	You'll be speaking on the 6th.
	Alright.
	Make sure I get an email about that, will ya?
	Yeah, I'm going to send a reminder to everyone, yeah.
	Oh yeah, get me that reminder, because I have a lot going on and I don't want to forget.
	So yes, get me that reminder.
	And I presume I will be allowed to show images then, right?
	Oh, of course!
	Yeah, absolutely, Ralph.
	This has been marvelous, actually.
	Thanks so much!
	I'll say goodnight to you now, but thank you, my friend.
	You were just terrific.
	You're terrific, Ralph.
	I can't thank you enough.
	Like I said, Jim Fetzer on the Fetz Presents thanking Ralph Zinke for being such a spectacular guest and all of you for joining us here.
	I appreciate it.
	You were wonderful, Ralph.
	Wonderful.

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