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June 15, 2020 - Jim Fetzer
10:14
Judyth Vary Baker talks about HARVEY & LEE (Part 5 of 6)
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This is Jim Fetzer of James Fetzer News with my very special guest once again, I'm happy to say, Judith Vary-Baker.
Judith, tell me about some of the photographic evidence that has been used to, for example, argue that there were actually two different Oswalds, one called Harvey, one called Lee.
Are you impressed by that argument?
Not very much, since I knew the real Lee Harvey Oswald, which we never used the name Harvey.
He didn't like the name Harvey.
By the way, there's even a record in the Marines saying that if anybody called him Harvey, he would get angry at them.
I noticed that when people are trying to describe Harvey, they always say, well, he didn't get in fights, and he didn't do this and that.
You've heard that, haven't you?
It's important to what I'm going to say next.
Yes, yes, yes.
Yeah.
But yet, this Harvey who doesn't get in fights when he's arrested in the Texas theater sucks the policemen.
Allegedly, yes.
That's right.
Well, at least we know that something happened and that there was a scuffle going on.
And so this meant that we go down, go gently into that good night, you know.
Yes.
There was something going on there.
And I've got more to say about that later.
But here's the thing about Lee Oswald.
A lot of his records, my own grandfather's Military records, when we looked them up, they had errors in them.
He was nobody that was, you know, involved in anything.
They had his name spelled wrong.
His name was Jeff White.
They had it with an E once.
They had it without an E once.
They had different things about him.
Some of them weren't true.
The record was sloppy.
I'm like their own grandfather.
And so, I don't look at those, but I do look at the photos.
Because I was there and I know what the man looked like in every single way, okay?
And I've noticed also they've done a lot, a lot of changing of the photos.
For example, when you see television footage of Lee Oswald, now once I say this, don't look at anything new from History Channel or somewhere like that because who knows what kind of retouching they would do today.
But the original photos that were live footage, you don't see Lee Oswald smiling or making what's called this smirk.
But in the newest paper ones, here it is, you've got these little black lines and if you blow it up you can see that they make him look like he's smiling.
And you know, it just gets to me because it's weird, very weird.
So you're telling me about some of the classic, allegedly historic photographs that a smirk has been imposed on the face of Lee Oswald.
Yeah, he didn't smile like that.
He smiles sort of like that.
There's one picture of him when he's leaving on a train with Marina.
He's starting on the trip to the United States.
There you've got something sort of like it.
It's the only photo that in existence is anything like this crazy batch of photos they have trying to show him that he was pleased, apparently, at killing Kennedy.
That's what they're trying to show, you know.
And it's just not that way when you look at the regular film photos.
You can see he's disgusted.
He's being denied many rights.
He's trying to defend himself.
He asked for defense to come in.
You don't see any smirks going on.
This is a serious matter for him and he knows it, you know.
Now, when people are trying to decide, what are we looking at?
Is this really Lee Harvey Oswald or is this somebody else?
And he wrote his name mostly as Lee H. Oswald, unless he had to write it some other way.
But notice That on, uh, Lee Oswald's, in photos, when you look at it, it's his right eyebrow if you're looking at the photo, but it's his left eyebrow.
It has a little, a little, uh, it goes up and down a little bit.
And you will look in the photos, a whole bunch of photos that are supposed to be of Harvey and then of Lee, and I'm not talking, I'm not talking about these gross, strange photos that are supposed to be Lee, but the ones like of Supposedly Lee and supposedly Harvey that are not the ones that you can see some retouchings done and I'll talk about that in just a second.
But in these particular photos you see that even though one has been labeled Harvey and another Lee they have the same eyebrow.
Now don't tell me that one of them plucked the eyebrow to make it look exactly like the other.
You know?
Yes.
And when you do a pupil measurement, pupil to pupil, it's different for everybody Jim.
And they have the same pupil measurement.
And similar ears and similar chin.
They have the same ears and the same hairlines.
You can't see that hairline.
When he's doing it, it has a buzz, marine buzz cut all the way back.
That doesn't count because they could change their hairline any way they want when they have those kind of cuts.
But Lee Oswald had this very fine textured hair.
It's unusually fine textured hair.
And yet, somehow, Lee Oswald also has this very same fine textured hair.
You know?
And I might mention that one reason you're so good at this sort of analysis is your background in physical anthropology.
Yes, I have a degree in it.
I took some forensic anthropology courses.
I had to put skulls together.
And I'm an artist, so I could actually reconstruct a skull anyway, you know, and put flesh on it, just like a lot of forensic artists can.
And what you're telling me is that some of the photographic records, some of the most important that have been claimed to support the theory of two Oswalds, one Harvey, one Lee, do not do that at all.
Not at all.
It's the same man.
There have been changes, too.
I've noticed that there have been distortions.
They have widened and made wider.
For example, the rest photo, supposedly of Harvey Oswald, is about 10% distorted.
It's a pincushion-type distortion.
Mainly, right here, where mostly, when we're trying to identify someone, there is where the distortion is occurring for some reason.
And yet, if you go to, like, Robert Grodin's book, The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald, which I recently was given, thank God, there you can see that the same photo is much narrower.
It seems like these photos have been copied again and again until they've been distorted, and then they've used the copy, and they lose a little bit of detail every time.
So tiny little details that would be on both men are vanished when they're just missing because they copied it so many times.
I think that's a very important point, and I like what you're suggesting because it seems to confirm other indications I've discovered myself that the story of Harvey and Lee may be far less well-supported than those who believe in it maintain.
Well, how in the world can you have two Marguerites?
You're supposed to have the entire Moret family, including all the cousins, have to know both Lee and Harvey.
How can you have a Harvey being driven to Exchange Place by Myra DeRue saying, this is Harvey, I'm taking you to Exchange Place.
And then, according to this one book, a couple months later, Lee moves into the same apartment.
Come on, you know, Exchange Place.
There is no... Yes, it's right in the Armstrong Wood.
Now, are you impressed by the claim that they had different eye color?
Of course not, because we're talking about the fact that Lee Oswald had an unusual pair of eyes.
To the point that when Marina worried, because when a body drains of blood, by the way, I was trained medically too, a lot of the tissues can collapse and they will look a little different.
She actually opened the eye to see if the eye color was the same and she was satisfied that it really was Lee that was dead when she saw him on the autopsy table.
Ah, very interesting.
So yes, and he did.
He had unusual eyes.
He had a ring of brown, but most of his eye was like blue-gray.
In a different light it would even look like they were blue.
like they were blue. - So some of the claims of the Lee and Harvey having different color eyes appear to have resulted from the circumstances under which they were being observed.
- Exactly, because outside his eye color might look a little different from when he was inside under the fluorescent light.
And it's kind of absurd to say that they have, you can actually blow up the one color photo we have of Lee Oswald when he was arrested Lee himself described himself at that time as having blue-gray eyes and when you blow it up you can see they're blue.
Now Harvey was supposed to have blue eyes and Lee was supposed to have hazel eyes.
The difference between hazel and blue in certain kinds of lights is nil.
It's just zilch.
So we have that.
One of the most important ways that you can tell whether you are talking about Harvey or Lee is how could they, if they had been actually selected from childhood, when you grew up, how would you know that they would resemble each other so much?
That's a very nice point!
Now, weren't there supposed to be some gross physical differences between them?
One's supposed to be a lot taller than the other.
Just like Marguerite, one's supposed to be short and dumpy and fat, and the other is supposed to be gorgeous and tall, and yet, You notice that one picture was put down a little lower than the other, when you add up their legs, and the fact that the dumpy one is not wearing high heels and the other one is, and the other, the skinny one, actually has skirts and blouses of other people in front of her, you can't really tell how wide she is.
So you're suggesting that just because the description of the two differs doesn't mean that there actually were two persons who were different out there in the real world?
Well, take me for example.
I used to look attractive, you know, and I developed a thyroid problem, and my face got fatter, I got fatter.
I've lost some of that weight, thank God, but the point is, is that before it was diagnosed, and it is the most undiagnosed disease in the United States, and Marguerite Oswald had all the symptoms.
Her thinning hair, getting fat, she was I appreciate talking with these questions with you and I look forward to our next conversation.
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