Chris Dobson, a former Royal Armouries master, clarifies that historical "harnesses" were often russet-finished and compares their quality to modern cars, debunking myths about mud floods and knightly acrobatics while highlighting the lethal reality of jousts where lances pierced visors. He details Federico da Montefeltro's severe facial injuries and argues against the longbow's invincibility, noting its limitations at Agincourt. Dobson concludes by revealing a seven-year vendetta involving Freemasons who blackmailed him with illegal restorations, leading him to destroy his tools and refuse future work in arms and armor due to perceived censorship and obstruction. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Sina Crisp Sponsorship00:02:44
James.
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Welcome to the Delling Pod, Chris Dobson.
Chris, your mission today, one of them anyway, is to be even better than you were on the germ warfare pod, which I haven't listened to because I thought it would cramp my style.
But I know you've been on it, and Jeremy said you were very entertaining.
And in fact, that is the reason.
That I even remembered to ask you because you contacted me a while back and you sent me some very weird and interesting letters.
The contents of which perhaps we're going to talk about.
But just tell us a bit about yourself to whet everyone's appetite.
Weird Letters from Jeremy00:14:40
Okay, formerly a master armourer and master armour to the Royal Armouries in the UK.
And that is armourer as in suits of armour instead of guns.
So I used to make and then restore, latterly, armour, anything from the early Middle Ages up to the Baroque 17th century.
And my clients were all over the world, top line museums.
I worked on absolutely the finest stuff there is.
And that was then.
That's a good start.
Right.
Well, actually, let's not hang about anymore with your self intro, because I think that's an interesting starting point.
I mean, armour.
I've been to places like the Wallace Collection, which has presumably one of the better collections of armour in the world.
It's not big, but it's very good.
And of course, I've been to the Tower of London a long time ago.
And I'll tell you my frustration, which I'm sure you can explain, which is I love armour, but most of the extant suits of armour, or do you call them armours?
Is that right?
A suit of armour is basically an armour.
Is that the correct term?
Call it an armour.
The period term was harness.
Okay, but you're going to tell me, aren't you, that the phrase a suit of armour is just a kind of, it's not the correct one.
Is that right?
No, that's just a modern expression.
So if you were going to say, I'm going to put on my armour, I'm going to put on my harness, would you say?
In many ways.
Yeah, that's what they said at the time.
That's where the expression dying in harness comes from.
It doesn't mean a horse that drops dead while it's pulling a cart, it means somebody killed on the battlefield.
Oh, okay.
And presumably, actually, that would have been quite a.
That would have been the way they wanted to go, wouldn't it?
Well, I don't know.
Ideally, they wouldn't have wanted to go at all.
But, well, I don't know.
Dying in harvest.
I quite fancied the idea of dying in a hunting accident.
I mean, obviously, I'd rather not die, like those knights would rather not die in battle.
But I was thinking, if you had to go in a kind of.
Well, I mean, we've all got to go somewhere or other.
I just think dying in battle or dying in a hunting accident is quite a good way to go.
You've had a few of those, haven't you?
I have.
I have, and it's really annoying.
And so, yeah, I mean, this is very close to the bone, literally.
Literally, yes.
Yeah.
So, but when I was a normie, when I was really into war, which I'm not so much now because I see.
War is one of the ways that the enemy uses to cull us, basically.
But it doesn't mean I can't still watch Game of Thrones or that Game of Thrones spin off, the one about the tall Irish knight, whatever his name is.
I don't know whether you saw it.
Quite good, quite good medieval combat, which I'm going to ask you about in a bit.
So, anyway, let me go back to my beef about armour.
So, you go to these places where these harnesses, as I've learned to call them, are, and you look at the dates, and the dates.
Tend to be from the period where armour wasn't really being used for battles anymore.
It was being used for, well, ornament, really.
The period I would love to see armour from is from, say, the Battle of Cressy, so 1346, or Agincourt, 1415, or just anything pre 1500 when armour really was important.
And it virtually doesn't exist, does it?
I've found somebody who's even shittier than I am.
I was sitting there thinking, what are you going to do?
Yeah, come on.
No, it is that bad.
It is that bad.
The annoying thing is, I have to go because my bloody Proton Mail account is in a different room.
So I have to go downstairs.
I can't get it on this computer.
I have to go downstairs, send you the message.
Anyway, you were going to tell me why there is no old.
Right.
Well, there is.
You're just not looking in the right places.
But there's not much of it.
Yeah, if you want to see early armour, you need to go to the really important collections.
That is, for example, the Imperial Armoury in Vienna.
That's the best collection of armour in the world.
And its sister collection is in Madrid, although that tends to be slightly later stuff.
You could go to a museum in Mantua, the Diocesan Museum, Francesco Gonzaga.
That's the best collection of Italian 15th century armour in the world.
Small, but very, very good.
And finally, the castle of Kurburg, owned by the famous Fontrap family.
I didn't get that, but I'm hoping that because it's recorded locally, other people will have got.
So, say that again just in case.
The castle of where?
Owned by the famous Fontrap family of the sound of music fame.
Really?
So, yeah, so the Italian stuff, I imagine, would have been actually used in that period where.
Well, it was just sort of constant civil war, wasn't it, in Italy?
The sort of Guelphs and the Ghibellines and the.
They're a bit earlier.
They tend to be more.
Late 13th and then 14th century.
But Italy was obviously a very new country.
It was a patchwork quilt of city states before that.
It's only about 160 years old.
So, yeah, there was incessant warfare in the peninsula.
And they did use what you might call homegrown product.
Yeah.
Yeah, I suppose what I'm saying is when I go and see a suit of armor or a harness wearing my normie hat for a moment, I really want to see stuff that's actually been used in battle.
Because I mean, it's interesting, isn't it?
That people actually fought in this stuff.
And what was it like?
And what did it look like?
You're going to tell me what it looked like.
But.
Can I go to those museums you've mentioned?
Do they.
What's the oldest armour they have?
It goes back to the classical world.
You go to the British Museum, you'll find ancient Greek and Roman stuff, even an ancient Egyptian armour made of crocodile hide they've got.
But in terms of medieval stuff, you'll find the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds.
They've got some early helmets and mail.
Likewise, Vienna.
And Coburg has the earliest proper 14th century harness.
It dates to the 1390s.
And that's got the sort of recognizable helmet you might see in or know from manuscripts, with the really big, pointy, snouty visor called a hound skull.
So go to Coburg for that sort of thing.
Okay.
And so they did actually wear this stuff and fight it.
The stuff you're seeing in museums was used because.
During four decades of restoring stuff, I came across marks and weapons all over pieces.
So you can see these things have gone through battles.
That's exciting.
That is exciting.
I mean, there is a sort of romance and excitement, isn't there, about.
Well, should we, about Knights in Armour?
From things we're going to come on to later, I'm like you.
When I had my normie head on, I used to love the whole romance of the thing.
I now look at this stuff very, very differently, despite having worked on it and with it for decades.
You couldn't pay me to touch it now.
And.
But it.
People have to.
This sort of romance idea of chivalry and knights and people shooting longbows at each other.
From the moment pretty much plate armour comes into use, late 14th century, then into the beginning of the 15th century, firearms are starting to come in at the same time.
So when you see a full, what was called a harness of plate, what you, you know, the normie name would be a suit of armour, you've got to remember that that's pretty much contemporary with firearms.
So.
On a 15th century battlefield, and the 15th century is called by armour scholars the Great Period because it is when the full plate harness is there before it begins to change radically in the 16th century because firearms get much better.
Firearms, as in handguns and then arquebuses and artillery, are contemporary with the use of plate armour.
So, I mean, in the later 15th century, for example, an Italian general complained you couldn't see from one side of the battlefield to the other anymore because of all the gun smoke.
So they're wearing full plate armour when they're being shot at with bullets.
Right, I hadn't realised that sort of guns were being used significantly quite so early.
What was that battle?
Was it a battle I've heard of?
Well, where the guy complained, I can't honestly remember, but there's one battle called Anghiari, 1440.
And there's a beautiful depiction of it on two painted Florentine chests called Cassoini by the Anghiari master.
And you can see guys carrying around handguns there, and that's the 1440s.
Right.
Okay.
And so that presumably means that in the Wars of the Roses, were they using guns then?
Yeah.
And I'll do another little change some terminology.
People think of things like Bosworth and Agincourt as medieval battles.
And I contest that.
I call them Renaissance battles.
Yeah.
Because.
Art history scholars followed the first art historian Vasari, and it's generally accepted when Vasari, who's the first person in 1550 to use the term Rinascita, which is now Rinascimento or Renaissance, he was talking about artists in the early 15th century.
So absolutely contemporary with Agincourt.
And so art historians tend to call that period Renaissance, whereas military historians are behind them.
They're still stuck calling it medieval.
And there's a sort of joke that the Renaissance begins at midnight, December 31st, 1499.
You know, magically you move from one century to the other and it becomes the Renaissance.
Not so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, of course, as we now both know, as do most of our listeners, Chris, that all these terms are fake anyway, because all history is fake.
It's all a lie.
It's all a scam.
I don't.
On a previous germ warfare podcast, I did trash the mud flood thing entirely and the missing thousand years.
I don't.
Well, if you can do that succinctly, I don't mind you trashing it again.
I've never been swayed by mud.
Floods.
Is it bollocks?
It's bollocks, yeah.
Because basically, people are being shown basement rooms with little windows at street level to let light in, and they're being told that's because the ground level has risen massively over the, you know, because of the mud flood.
So they had to build the houses up again.
You can trash that very, very simply two ways.
One, houses built on hills.
Right.
If there was a massive mud flood, why aren't the houses at the bottom of the hill completely submerged and the ones at the top of the hill?
Do not have the basement.
See, it just doesn't work.
You just have to apply common sense.
But the other thing is, these massive mud floods that are meant to have occurred.
I live in a town called Fossano, and that's on top of a promontory, a rock, we're 100 feet above the plain below.
And there are medieval buildings down on the plain.
You know, hello?
Why aren't they completely submerged under 100 feet of mud?
Maybe they passed you by.
Maybe the mud floods sort of forked around your town and took all the other ones.
I don't know.
I wouldn't go to the wall for mud floods, I have to say.
It's one of my least.
Well, not that I've really looked into it, but I. You know.
It's one of them.
That Australian guy who now lives in Mexico, he quite likes the mud floods, but I haven't heard it.
It doesn't seem to be common currency.
He works with period documents as much as I have.
Batshit crazy.
Yeah, if you've worked with period documents like I have, you also know the missing thousand year idea is nonsense as well.
There's, you know, that we've had the thousand year reign of Christ as this is it.
Yeah, it's nonsense.
I've worked a lot in Florence.
Yeah.
Mud Floods and Demons00:05:25
We're talking about sort of.
I mean, the problem with Flamenco is that he's.
This is getting tedious now.
Well, it is.
It's not as tedious for us as it is for Andrew, who's going to have to edit all this.
Have you got really shit internet, Neymar?
No, but I'll tell you something.
At the point where this is happening, my computer is throwing a fit.
So, I think a little demonic interference going on here.
Well, yes, I know.
Well, you mentioned demons in our correspondence.
I mean, it is odd that, because of course, the devil controls the air.
He's a prince of the air, isn't he, among other things?
And I think he does like to interfere.
I've had this a few times on my podcast, particularly on the ones to do with anything.
Anything to do with the supernatural, I get interference, and it's not just crap internet.
Well, you're telling me you've got good internet, and this is annoying.
So, we're not even talking about the.
We haven't even got on to the exciting stuff yet.
We're just having an interesting debate about history.
Well, discussion.
You were saying.
What were you saying about.
I couldn't hear what you were saying, so I was possibly talking over you, but I might as well make my point while we're still able to communicate.
Fomenko, if that's how I pronounce it.
Maybe it's Famenko.
I'm learning Russian at the moment, so I'm really learning how to pronounce Russian words.
Fomenko, Famenko, whatever.
He talks about how dating systems are extremely unreliable and there was no sort of cohesive.
Form of date keeping and time keeping and stuff, so we can't trust the historical record, yada, yada, yada.
But you say, generally, from your experience looking at manuscripts, we're not missing a thousand years.
Is that right?
That's right, yeah.
And we're back to common sense again.
The documents I've worked with relate to things like buildings, paintings, events, and we've got those buildings, and we've then got things like paintings of those buildings.
And if you're telling me, That, as some people imply, that basically the contents of public archives are all fake or they've been changed.
No, if you work with them, you understand how they all interlock with each other.
One document will reference another, then you get compilations of documents.
Then there are the documents that reference each other from libraries in different countries, and there are lots of private archives as well.
So, the idea that somebody you would need an army of forgers working constantly to build up this corpus of fake material, and to give you an idea, just in Florence, the state archive and the national library contain literally tons of documents.
I mean, literally, that's not an exaggeration.
So, the quantity is vast.
And I've actually lost my history on that.
Has it been read, a lot of this stuff, since it was written?
Has it been read?
No.
And if you go to the State Archive in Florence, as an example, I was expecting to be given microfiche or maybe even copies.
And I was reading wills from the 1420s, and they brought me out all the original.
It's a huge stack of books to go through.
So you then have to go through them page by page by page.
Because even digitising these documents takes forever.
So, it's an absolutely huge privilege to go through these things.
And you find little gems.
Here's one for your brother.
I was going through some documents relating to what are called the Ten of War.
That's the Council of the Florentine Government who were responsible for waging war.
And these were the minutes of a meeting from the late 14th century.
And someone in the margin had doodled a guy.
It was a brilliant little drawing of a guy.
Badly unshaven with his sort of eyes hanging out of the back of his hose.
It was just a brilliant little cartoon.
And when I saw it, I thought, who else has ever seen that since the guy drew it?
Just amazing.
That is amazing.
I'd love to have seen that.
Oh, before I forget, I wanted to ask you about you mentioned in one of your books, which we can talk about in a bit, how you found some armor with somebody still in it.
Some bits of.
with bits of the owner still in it?
Armor with Bodies Inside00:15:05
No, not me.
No, well, okay, but you.
Okay, well, yes.
No, from the battlefield at Visby, which was fought in Gotland in what is now Denmark in the 14th century, yes, they've got bits of the owner still in them, skulls, yeah, in male hoods.
Who was fighting whom at Visby?
Pass the Danes were fighting somebody.
I don't know.
As I've again, we'll come on to this.
As I've moved away from this, as it's no longer the all consuming interest it once was, mercifully, I'm starting to forget.
Well, so you've gone off this stuff because basically, a bit like me, you think that war is no longer a fun thing, it's an instrument of control and of worse.
No.
Well, yes, but no, you're alluding to something else, aren't you?
Oh, no, I wasn't, actually.
No, genuinely, I was trying to establish a link here because I've gone off war because I think war, what is it good for?
The people who plan and execute wars are not my friends.
They're not the friends of people like me, and probably you, that's all.
That's why I'm off war.
But.
You've got another.
We can talk about your other demonic, dark, masonic, evil stuff whenever you want.
I'm just exhausting the medieval warfare scene first because I'm quite interested in it.
So, one of the things I learned from reading one of your books, the one with black and blue in the title, is it called Beaten Black and Blue?
Something like that.
Beaten Black and Blue, yeah.
Is that armor was not shiny, that actually it was all elaborately painted.
No, they're not painted.
There were some painted examples, but it's what are called color oxide finishes.
That means when you are heat treating armor in the forge, or maybe even in an oven, or baths of sand were also used, very hot sand, an oxide forms on the surface of the iron or steel, and you can freeze that in place by quenching the metal in oil or water.
Most armor, vast, vast majority of armor, had a dark grey finish.
And I used my interest in art.
I was seeing in paintings, which I originally used as reference for armors, for reconstructing how they should look at given periods.
You see colour finishes in paintings.
You see sometimes bright blue, sometimes dark blue, grey, black, and even purple.
And I was seeing that in paintings, and a lot of armor enthusiasts just say, well, that's just how they depicted polished steel.
But then, if you look at other paintings, you see people in the same painting with different colored armors.
So, that can't be true.
Also, the argument given is that the painters discolored over time, and they were what looks black now was originally a very bright, what's called white armor.
And no, no, because you see these different colors within the same painting.
and sometimes different colours of different parts of armour on the same person.
Now, what I then did was, when I was working on armour and taking it apart and restoring it, if you remove a rivet, you will find underneath the head of the rivet a little halo of the original colour surface finish.
And I began to find the same colours I was seeing in paintings, to dark grey most of the time, but also pale blue, purple, dark blue, And then I put that together with period documents because there are period documents that actually describe these colour finishes.
And one from the 17th century by a guy called Gervais Markham actually states specifically that if they're finished like that, they will keep the longer from rust.
So it was, I mean, it's weatherproofing for the vast majority.
It's simply weatherproofing.
Can you imagine going out on the battlefield now in a polished tank?
Well, you dazzle the enemy.
Into surrender, maybe, into fear, or you'd impress them with your majesty.
Well, there were, I mean, white armor did, yeah, possibly.
White armor did exist.
There's no doubt it did.
And there are references to white armor in archives.
So we know it existed.
But what I did was I went back through period documents starting in the 17th century.
And the vast majority of armor that actually survives dates from the sort of Civil War period, 30 years war period in the 17th century.
And I just went back and back and back through documents, right back into the 14th century.
And you find.
The mentions of white armour just get.
You'd expect them to get more.
You'd expect the quantity mentioned in an arsenal to go up and up and up.
And in fact, it goes down.
And to the point where in some periods it is vanishingly.
It's just not there.
For example, a document from 1478 from the castle of Pavia outside.
It's in Milanese territory.
And the Milanese were the big armour producers.
That was the centre of the European industry.
And out of.
Something like 2,700 pieces or pieces of armor or whole armors for the for there's some white armor for horses, few pieces, but there is one white helmet out of about 2,700 pieces.
That's it.
And by white, you mean shining armor, polished, yeah, polished.
And what's interesting is when you go through archives, what's really obvious is you get mentions of.
Purple armour, blue armour and black armour and then these mentions of white armour and then you get the vast majority are nondescript.
So what that tells you is the notary who was drawing up the document understood there was a standard finish that he didn't actually have to describe.
It would be like an inventory of Ford Model Ts.
You don't have to list the ones that are black because they were almost always black.
You would only list a white one or a red one.
See, and that's what these documents do.
So that standard finish was a colour called russet, russet grey.
Doesn't mean red, it means grey.
Okay.
So there was a black knight, like in Monty Python.
Who had that?
Oh, they did have black armour, yeah.
Yeah.
And do you reckon they did it because it was kind of like Captain Black in.
In um, captain Scarlet, you know I don't.
It's a bad one, we we know.
On one occasion it was done as a as the bad in.
On one occasion it was definitely done as a sign of mourning, because when Henry V died, the knights who, the knights who rode along beside the the catafalque carrying the body, are recorded as all wearing black armour.
And how much would this kit have cost in modern terms?
Ah, right.
Well, it depends on the level of quality.
You had everything from, if we compare it to a car, you had everything from the beaten up Fiat Panda with one door missing, right the way up to a Maserati.
And the expensive stuff was expensive.
Very, very expensive.
And in terms of warfare and history, there was a military industrial complex already.
Certainly, regarding plate armour in the 14th century, if you look at a city like Milan, that basically was one vast munitions plant.
You had specialist makers of armour, of bows, of crossbows, even of spurs, lances, saddles, you name it.
And they churned out thousands of armours per year.
Absolutely thousands.
And how much of an advantage did it give you having the Maserati armour rather than the Fiat Panda armour?
Yeah, well, first off, let's go from the Range Rover level, something like that.
The decent plate harness did work.
It did stop weapons because you've got those examples I mentioned where I found marks and weapons all over armors.
But also, there was something called armor of proof.
It was proved by being shot at.
Using the most powerful ballistic weapons they had from about 30 paces.
So, in the 15th century, the surviving pieces, you find marks from crossbow bolts on them.
That's not necessarily because they've been in action, it's because they've been proved.
Right.
And then later, on 16th and 17th century armour, they were shot at with guns and they left the marks from the bullets on the surface of the armour just to show it had worked.
Yeah.
So, sorry, carry on.
No, I was going to say, but it had to work.
It was expensive.
These are professional warriors, and they're not going to lumber around the battlefield in something which is going to be too heavy.
It's going to slow them down.
It's going to stop them fighting.
And if it doesn't stop projectiles or edged weapons, what on earth is the point in having it?
So it didn't work.
I can see that.
It's a bit like.
It's actually a bit like tanks, isn't it?
That you want the armour thick enough to be able to.
Protect you from an 88, ideally, but at the same time, you don't want your tank to be weighed down and sink in the bog or not be able to go very far because the engine burns out or there's not enough fuel like the Tiger tank had all the time.
So, yeah, it must have been similar.
You don't want armor so cumbersome that you can't fight.
No, and I mean, armor is always a trade off, it's always got to be a compromise between mobility and protection.
Always.
Yes.
But to give you an idea of how flexible it was, we've got this idea of knights being craned into the saddle, which is absolute bollocks.
In fact, they were expected to be able to vault into the saddle without using their stirrups.
And you ride.
Okay.
Now imagine.
Now you're used to English hunting saddles.
Yes.
Now imagine a saddle which is more like an armchair with a.
Built up at the front and back with a pommel and cantle, which held you in place.
Even higher than that.
And so they were expected to be able to vault into the saddle over a cantle.
Over a cantle.
And their horses were called destrias, weren't they?
Is that how you pronounce it?
Destria.
Destria is a warhorse.
So how many hounds would they be?
How big?
They'd be like big hunters, but they'd have short backs.
Because you know the condition saddleback.
If a horse has a long back, it gives over time.
Yes.
Right.
Well, they wanted to avoid that.
So they bred horses which had short spines.
So they're very compact animals and very strong and fast.
I apologize to listeners who aren't as interested in this horse element as I am, but I think this is really, really interesting.
So I'm going to ask some more questions.
Because I don't think, do people realize how difficult it is to?
Vault onto a horse.
I mean, when you're out hunting, for example, and you need to have, you're bursting for a pee, it's one of the great challenges when you're hunting because you're in the saddle for several hours and you've got to decide, am I just going to not drink anything apart from booze?
Or am I going to get parched?
Or am I going to have the risk of having to get off and have a pee?
And you don't want to because you get left behind and you can't get back on the horse, particularly if it's.
I mean, some of the bigger hunters are about 18 hands.
So that would be about the same.
Height as a destrier?
Some size?
Somewhere 16 to 18 hands, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, well, 16 hands you get on fairly easy, but 18 hands is very, very hard without somebody giving you a leg up or standing on a five bar gate or something.
And if you've got to vault over how many extra inches of the pommel thing called?
The cannon would be about, you're talking about, oh, I don't know, 10 inches.
So these knights, it goes without saying, would have been young men mostly and super fit.
I mean, they did little else but train for this kind of stuff.
Is that right?
Yep.
And also, they were expected to be able to, without their helmet on, they were expected to be able to turn a cartwheel in their armor.
Just to show.
Right?
No.
Yes.
And also, while we're on the subject, they trained, yep, and they were trained in martial arts as well.
Again, they didn't lumber around just walloping each other with big heavy swords.
We know there are surviving fencing manuals.
The most famous is called The Flower of Battle by a fellow called Fiore dei Libri, who lived in the north of Italy, late 14th, early 15th century.
And several copies of The Flower of Battle survive.
And they're just like Oriental martial arts.
They show you everything from grappling, wrestling, unarmed.
Then combat with a dagger, then combat with a sword, then combat with staff weapons, then mounted combat.
So when you say they trained to do this, they really did.
Absolutely.
Medieval Martial Arts Training00:03:04
And so we think that you talk about this under the 20 somethings today.
They think that they basically invented fitness culture.
They think that their generation has access to this understanding about physical exercise, which no generation before was understood.
They didn't have access to all these, the kind of.
Technology and science that modern scientific training has given us.
But I imagine that their fitness is as nothing to what these young men from the 14th century.
And also, global warming is a massive con.
There is no evidence whatsoever that man made climate change is a problem.
that it's going to kill us, that we need to amend our lifestyle in order to deal with it.
It's a non-existent problem.
But how do you explain this stuff to your normie friends?
Well, I've just brought out the revised edition of my 2012 classic book, Watermelons, which captures the story of how some really nasty people decided to invent the global warming scare in order to fleece you, To take away your freedoms, to take away your land.
It's a shocking story.
I wrote it, as I say, in 2011, actually, the first edition came out.
And it's a snapshot of a particular era.
The era when the people behind the climate change scam got caught red-handed, tinkering with the data, torturing till it screamed, in a scandal that I helped christen ClimateGate.
So I give you the background.
to the skullduggery that went on in these seats of learning where these supposed experts were informing us.
We've got to act now.
I rumbled their scam.
I then asked the question, okay, if it is a scam, who's doing this and why?
It's a good story.
I've kept the original book pretty much as is, but I've written two new chapters, one at the beginning and one at the end, explaining how it's even worse than we thought.
I think it still stands out.
I think it's a good read.
Obviously I'm biased but I'd recommend it.
You can buy it from jamesdellingpole.co.uk forward slash shop.
You'll probably find it.
Just go to my website and look for it jamesdellingpole.co.uk and I hope it helps keep you informed and gives you the material you need to bring round all those people who are still persuaded that, oh, it's a disaster.
We must amend our ways and appease the gods, appease Mother Gaia.
No we don't.
It's a scam.
Agincourt Battlefield Tactics00:06:27
Their fitness is as nothing to what these young men from the 14th century.
And also, I mean, this would set them up for life, for a good constitution.
There's a famous English mercenary called Sir John Hawkwood.
Yes.
Okay, and he came from Suffolk, or no, Essex, Essex boy, just on the border.
And near where I used to live.
And he won his last battle fighting in the front rank.
Again, my memory's going to stretch.
He was either 72 or 74.
And he was still fighting in the front rank.
And I bet he was shagging as well, like a shagger.
He must have been a tough bastard.
Really, really.
But he must have been a bastard as well.
I mean, was he with the White Company or something?
What's the.
There we go.
Now, briefly, I'll touch on that.
Takes us back to White Armour.
The idea was.
Arthur Conan Doyle came up with the idea in his book that they were called the White Company because they had polished white armor.
No.
The period description of them by a chap called Villani says they had bright armor and that when they came in from their raids or combat, their squires would get the armor immediately and clean it.
So it would remain this bright.
And as you said, it was done to.
Fill the enemy with fear and awe when they saw this glittering armor, but that doesn't mean to say it was white.
I think it was pale blue.
So it would shine like a mirror in the sun, but it just wouldn't be white.
Would I be right in thinking that you didn't advance in the world of chivalry by being nice?
These were nasty pieces of work.
They were thugs.
Yes, yes, absolutely.
So Hoddy would have gone around raping people and just killing.
Not personally.
I don't think so.
He certainly.
There was a siege he was involved in where the townspeople got slaughtered and he stopped working for the church after that.
And it's been suggested that even that was too much to stomach for him.
And he didn't want to be involved in massacres like that anymore.
What do you mean?
Because he felt that the church was responsible for the massacre.
He was fighting, he was the commander fighting for the church at that season.
Cesena, I think it was the siege of Cesena.
And when they.
One of the problems with medieval and Renaissance warfare is when a siege is a closed siege, when you seal off a town, then there are certain customs, or were certain customs, that if you refuse to surrender, And the enemy then fought their way in.
If they got in, you couldn't really expect to be spared.
I mean, yes, some people were, but it was better to come to terms with the enemy while they were still outside your gates because you weren't going to be able to negotiate with them once they fought their way in.
And Chizena, if my memory serves correctly, was a particularly bad example.
They got in and they killed a huge number.
Right.
Okay.
Was on the battlefield, was chivalry a myth or did it actually happen?
Was the sort of honour in the battlefield?
Yes and no.
You did get people calling each other out for personal combat.
Yes, that happened.
But equally, you got, you know, people were being murdered.
I mean, it sounds odd to say murdered on the battlefield, but instead of sort of fighting.
Sort of face on, people would simply be grabbed, held down, and slaughtered.
You know, the battlefield executions.
So that's hardly very chivalrous.
My.
What you mean people would surround a knight on his horse, pull him off, and then stab him to death, kind of thing?
Well, here's a.
We can debunk another couple of myths.
You'll like this.
You mentioned Agincourt earlier.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, Firstly, and I know a lot of longbow fans out there will not agree with me, but the English archers did not mow down the French cavalry at Agincourt.
They didn't.
The French fought their way right up into the English lines, but they did it on foot because the ground was completely poached.
It had been raining for days, it was just not ground for a cavalry charge.
So what happened was the French formed a large column and attacked the English lines on foot.
And Henry V was in combat himself in the front rank.
His brother Gloucester was knocked down.
And Henry stood over him and defended him, and he had a crown on his helmet.
And one of the flurets of the crown was cut off by a French battleaxe.
So that's an example of really standing in the front rank.
But what happened was, at a certain point, the archers were firing into the flanks of this column, and they began to bunch in together.
And then after a while, because the French men at arms didn't want to fight English archers, they wanted the honor of fighting the king.
So what happened was the archers, after a while, just ditched the bows, came out, they defended the position with sharpened stakes.
So they ran forward from that, or I don't know, struggled forward through the mud.
And what they did was they had large mallets with them for driving the stakes into the ground before they sharpened the ends.
So you had groups of English archers who would find a French knight.
Dodge around him, and sooner or later, somebody would land a blow with one of those mallets, knock him down, and then they'd stick a dagger in through the visor of the helmet, finish him off that way, or up in the armpit.
So it was a horrible way to die.
And in fact, when the French broke at Agincourt, it's thought that they probably, that column began to break from the back because the men at arms could see down the sides of the column and they could see what the English were doing.
You know, they didn't want to get finished off by a bunch of archers in the mud.
No.
So it actually broke from the back.
The French Break at Agincourt00:02:07
For your audience, there is an absolutely brilliant book called The Face of Battle by Sir John Keegan.
And he compares Agincourt, Waterloo, and the Somme in one book as the basic experience of battle.
It's absolutely superb.
People should buy that and read it.
Keegan, I've read it actually a long, long time ago in my warry days.
But of course, you probably know.
I mean, I knew John.
I didn't know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, because he worked on the Telegraph.
We'd be on very friendly terms.
I was forgetting.
You're controlled opposition, aren't you?
Yeah.
So I.
Yeah, I used to like John, and I used to.
He was my go to, because he taught at Sandhurst and because he was a handy historian.
Whenever I had a question to ask him about what.
I remember, for example, when Saving Private Ryan came out, I said, well.
John.
He actually went to the first screening of it.
I went to the, and I went with him.
And I was asking him, is that accurate?
Was it like that?
And he'd give me whatever.
But the problem with John Keegan, I've learned now I've gone down the rabbit hole, is that like all of them, he was a court historian.
And he was propping up official lie narratives.
I mean, inevitably, if he taught it, you don't get to teach at Sandhurst if you're not.
If you're not massively establishment.
So, for example, I think in one of his books, he questions, he poo poos the notion that the Americans knew that the Japanese were coming at Pearl Harbor.
I mean, of course they were.
And I'm sure, of course they were aware of it.
And I'm sure he.
He's never kind of written in any of his books about how the First and Second World Wars were planned by an Anglo American alliance called the Milner Group.
Lance vs Bodkin Point00:16:06
And that's the thing.
So I liked him, but he was part of an establishment which I now despise because I know it to be evil.
Yeah, I understand.
Well, if we just nip back to Agincourt itself for a moment.
And I said that there is this myth of the French mowing down the English archers, mowing down the French like medieval machine gunners with their bows.
Right.
Well, a few years later, there was another battle, which is rather less known, called the Battle of Verneuil, fought in Normandy in 1424.
And that time, the cavalry who charged, the ground was hard.
OK?
And.
Firm going.
It was firm going.
It was so firm that the English were unable to drive the stakes in effectively this time.
And this time they found themselves faced by Lombard heavy cavalry.
So that means people wearing good armor, well mounted, and the Lombards went through them like a knife through butter.
They just rode them down straight through.
That must have felt so good after.
Because the French must have been itching to get their revenge.
I mean, it was a Franco Scottish army, in fact, but they had a contingent of Italian heavy cavalry, about 2,000 of them.
And they knocked them down like ninepins, apparently.
So the idea that the longbow was this super weapon, and the fact that in every English village, longbow practice was compulsory, and that this dated back to whenever.
When did the longbow training start?
You're talking about it must have been common practice before the 14th century, but it's classically known about from the 14th and early 15th centuries.
And the English went on using the longbow into the 16th century.
Okay.
But it's part of our national myth that this was our super weapon and that we were uniquely capable of using it because we had this training.
And it was.
You're saying this is all bollocks, that actually it was just weather conditions in Agincourt that gave us that.
But hang on, Cressy as well.
Wasn't the longbow effective at Cressy?
The longbow was effective at Cressy.
And in the Wars of the Roses, they were effective.
What I'm saying is, it's not as effective as people think.
There are bow enthusiasts who think you can put a, you know, the famous armour piercing arrowhead called a bodkin.
Yeah.
That you could put that through anything.
No, you couldn't.
I've seen quite light armour with a bodkin strike on it, an Italian shoulder defence.
And.
In fact, crossbows had a higher pull rate, as in they were stronger bows.
But like early firearms, now what is true is it took a lot of training to fire the longbow and a lot of physical strength.
And that's why in Italy you have the popularity of the crossbow.
And then when firearms come in, because they're quite inaccurate when they come in, I mean, anyone can be taught to point what is effectively a metal tube on a wooden stick at the enemy and fire a.
A ball out of it.
So, one of the reasons that crossbows are used and then firearms come in so readily is because you could be trained to use them very quickly and you don't need body strength to do it.
But the idea that if you've got a body of men in armour on horses advancing on longbow, well, towards longbowmen, this idea that That all it would take is a shower of arrows to take them all out.
That's nonsense.
Yes, nonsense, yeah.
And what about, how well protected were the horses?
Very well.
I thought we'd probably come back to horses.
Of course.
Okay.
Early on, they use a lot of hardened leather.
The French term is cuir buis, or the Italians called it cuoio cotto, cooked leather, because heated up.
And it's a form of armor made from, I mean, I also think of it as animal glue armor, because what they would do is they would take partially tanned hides.
Fully tanned hides, you can't do this.
You take a partially tanned hide, And make a sandwich with another piece with animal glue in the middle, and then put it over a mold, a last, like making a pair of shoes, and you heat it up so the glue liquefies, the leather, the collagen fibers in the leather tighten up, and you wind up with a very light, strong form of armor.
But we know there were people specialized not just in making leather horse armor, there were Italian armorers specialized in making steel horse armor.
A fella called Pier Innocenzo da Fiano.
Is a famous example from Milan.
And German armourers, the Helmschmidt family, they armoured horses right down to the feet.
They made leg armour for horses as well.
That's very special.
You're talking about the Emperor Maximilian, but some pieces survive.
I'm glad the horses were protected because I always get very upset when the horses get hurt because it's not really their fault that they're.
Although they were, destriers were trained, weren't they, to act as weapons as well.
They were trained to lash out at the.
Yes, and bite.
And kick.
And bite.
Yes.
That's extraordinary.
You wouldn't want.
I mean, the whole idea, the idea which is true is if you imagine a fully armored man at arms, they're not necessarily a knight, they were called men at arms.
If you have a fully armored man at arms up on a big strong horse and that horse is armored, that's going to be one hell of an imposing thing.
If that's bearing down on you with a lance pointed straight at you, coming towards you, and you would feel the ground shake.
And when they charged, that's an imposing thing.
Because you've got to remember they're high up as well, they're much higher than infantry.
What?
I'm not just thinking about battles here, but I'm thinking about jousting.
I mean, I've come off a horse a few times, and it's really not pleasant.
You hit the ground with a tremendous thump.
And the idea, jousting.
I mean, how did they not all die of internal bleeding?
I mean, how did they survive?
How can you go jousting and not die almost every time?
Well, they had different types of jousts.
They had jousts of war and jousts of peace.
In the jousts of peace, instead of a single point on the lance, you had a sort of grapple head, three points like that.
And the idea is it could get a purchase on the armor, so it could knock the horse down.
I mean, horses did get knocked right over along with their riders because of the force of the impact.
But the idea of the three points means it wouldn't pierce the armor.
But there is an example from the 1430s in Spain.
Called the Paso Honoroso of Suero de Quinones.
I think that's the name.
And that was fought over several days.
And they stopped eventually when they'd either killed or wounded just about everybody.
And because we have descriptions of the injuries, very precise descriptions, because the heralds who were there to record the score also documented what went on in the lists.
And so we get this.
A whole load of horrible descriptions of the injuries that people suffered.
Really horrible.
You want me to give you some, don't you?
Yeah, okay.
This is what I want.
Now, tell me.
Well, on Italian or Italian 8th, 15th century armour, there was often underneath where the tricep is, the underside of the arm or the inside of the upper arm, there was often a slot left open.
Down there, they weren't what they call fully enclosed cannons.
And one guy got a lance right through his arm there, it struck him.
And he got the lance broke because they talk about breaking lances.
And I know this is another complete rabbit hole, but hence the name Shakespeare.
Shake breaks beer means breaking a lance.
And no, I don't believe he existed either.
Anyway, this guy.
Got hit under the arm, lance broke, and he somehow dismounted and walked towards the judge's stand with his thing through his arm.
And apparently, he's basically saying, I'm fine, I'm fine.
And then they removed it.
And it said that blood shot out of the wound like fresh wine from a cask, at which point he fainted, unsurprisingly.
Another guy.
Got a lance point in through the visor of his helmet.
It through the, well, not the visor, what's called the sight.
It went in between the visor proper and the reinforce over his brow.
And it went straight through one eye, straight into the brain, and his other eye shot out because of the pressure.
Not very nice.
No.
Another guy, he got somehow a lance point went in through the sight of his helmet and was stuck in his forehead.
And again, it was like the Black Knight in Monty Python.
It's just a flesh wound.
And he was saying, I'm okay, I'm okay.
No, you're not.
You've got a lance in your head.
So, you know, and do you know, we talked about Henry V. Henry V at the Battle of Shrewsbury.
He got a bodkin arrowhead in the face, got in the cheek there.
And it was embedded in so far, his surgeon had to invent a special tool to screw into the base of the arrowhead to remove it, to get it out.
So, you know, nasty.
Apparently, it left him with a nice scar for the rest of his life.
They were tough bastards.
So they would accumulate the most tremendous scars.
And ah, yeah, here's a good example then for you a real bar steward.
This guy called Federico da Montefeltro, he was a mercenary commander, he was partly behind the Patsy conspiracy in Florence to wipe out the Medici.
He only didn't participate because he got injured falling through a wooden floor.
But he was around 1450, he was injured in the same way he got a lance through the side of his helmet in a joust, and that blow.
Took out part of the bridge of his nose, took out the eye, and then took out the orbit, the socket, as well, just went bang, straight through.
And wait for it.
So he lost the eye.
But not only that, because he'd lost the eye, he then got surgeons to take out more of the bridge of his nose so he could see across.
And that's why, I mean, people can look him up online Federico da Montefeltro.
In every portrait after that, he's only ever shown from the left hand side.
Well, yeah, I think he's got a scar.
But I'm sure the ladies can see both sides and weren't quite so attracted to him.
So, this is horrible.
This is horrible.
And they were into it.
That Spanish, what were they thinking?
Why would you have everyone killing each other at a kind of non war type?
Matter of honor.
It was called the pass of honor.
They were showing that they were chivalrous knights.
Stupid.
Yeah.
And it does show you that.
I mean, I've talked about martial arts before, and you do get.
I heard you mentioning Machiavelli on a podcast, I think, some while ago.
Yeah.
And you thought he might have been misjudged in some way.
And no, he was a political spin doctor.
And he describes the Battle of Anghiari in 1440.
He said it went on for four hours.
And there was only one man killed, not because of any honourable wound, but because he fell off his horse and as a result was trampled to death.
No.
Hundreds killed at Angiari.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, another wrong one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How I was quite you, you presumably haven't seen that Game of Thrones spin off series, A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, I think it's called.
No, no, I haven't, I don't think I've seen any of the Game of Thrones either.
The jousting scenes are really quite good, and they give you a sense of the kind of just the grinding.
Brutality of it all.
So, once you unseat the rider, do you then get off your horse?
What's the etiquette when you've.
There was a certain number of courses fought, either fighting with the lance or then fighting with other weapons.
There were club tournaments where they were a bit like a demolition derby, where they had helmets which had elaborate crests on them.
And the idea was you had to literally smash the crest off the other guy's helmet.
And they would sometimes fight in teams or individually.
And yeah, there were also courses fought on foot.
There was a tournament fought in Smithfield.
And that was a grudge match.
That wasn't fun.
I can't remember the names of both the combatants.
It was in the 15th century.
And one of them had the fantastic name of the Great Bastard of Burgundy.
And he was fighting an English man at arms.
And what happened was the Englishman got him down.
On the ground, he forced his visor open, and there's a nice euphemistic expression for what happened next.
He then went on punching him in the face with his gauntlet until he was, quote, unable to continue.
So, in other words, until he smashed his face in.
Literally.
So, no, not very gentlemanly.
No, not really, really not.
Could they, I mean, how can you fight anyway with this narrow slit?
Yeah, I heard you mention that on another podcast.
Right.
Now, obviously, I've worn armour myself.
And what happens is early on, when armour isn't modelled very well to the head, if you think of those, what are called great helms, those basically look like a bucket on your head, the early ones from the 13th century.
Open-Faced Helmet Risks00:02:36
The front of the helmet is further away from the face.
So, the further away from the eye the sight of the helmet is, the more restricted your vision is going to be.
So, then you had that type of helmet I called the Houndsgirl bassinet with a great piggy faced or pig faced bassinet also.
And although they're becoming shaped and you have this quite conical visor, the sights in that visor are still quite a long way away from the eye.
So, that does restrict your vision a great deal.
The.
The invention of the Italians was to create something called an armette, the elmetto, the little helmet.
And what that did was it had a much smaller visor called a sparrow's beak visor, and the helmet itself was modelled very closely to the head.
So the sight was very, very close to your eyes.
And it's a bit like wearing a pair of glasses, as I'm doing.
Your eyes adjust to it, and you can see out of the helmet much more easily.
Yes, if you're wearing one of those helmets, but it sounds like the common experience was not that.
It was just like these.
Well, that was earlier on.
Also, people didn't always wear their visors when fighting.
Did they not?
That's my one.
No, visors were often held on with pins.
And so you could just remove the two pins and take the visor off and fight without it.
Yeah, and that's probably how Henry V got his arrow in the face.
But I think that's what you do, isn't it?
Surely.
You want to be able to see what's going on.
Well, also, commanders, because they had to give orders and hear what their subordinates were telling them.
They tended to wear open faced helmets as well.
An Italian type of helmet called a celata, a salat.
And that would either have a completely open facial aperture or it would be a sort of T shape.
Some of them even look like what are called Greek Corinthian helmets.
If people know from Greek vases, those helmets which have got the two eyes.
And then a narrow and a nasal, and then they're open down to the chin.
Yeah, they were making helmets like that in the 15th century as well.
So sometimes it was a calculated risk that they had to have these open faced helmets, and it would make them recognizable as well.
So, so far, this has been the kind of podcast that even Normie World could appreciate.
I mean, it could almost be an episode of The Rest is Court History.
The rest is Court History.
Alistair Crowley's Wand Story00:07:07
But, but, I was just funny.
I had the same thought about that podcast myself.
Yes, insert the word court.
Yes.
I've just been, I've just been doing, uh, uh, because one of them, one of them is a friend of mine, um, or I haven't seen him for a while, but, but I, I kind of think it's great that he's doing so well.
But at the same time, When you realize that they did an episode on the Titanic, six episodes on the Titanic, without once mentioning the QGHRs that A, it was an insurance job by JP Morgan.
B, the ship that actually sank wasn't the Titanic, it had its nameplate changed.
C, that Morgan's henchmen used this as an opportunity to bump off Aster, these various rivals that he'd installed on the ship.
Mysteriously failed to turn up at the docks because he had a pressing engagement.
All the stuff that's really interesting that matters, they didn't mention or at least countenance seriously in these six episodes.
And they did an episode of the moon landings with Tom Hanks.
Tom Hanks.
I mean, and they didn't mention the fact that we haven't actually been to the moon.
So, anyway.
How did I get there?
Yeah, we've been quite normie friendly so far.
But do you want to tell me how much do you want to tell me about your demonic, weird shit experiences that and your, your, your, your, the masons and stuff like that?
Okay, we can lead into it going from normie world.
I, I said I don't like this stuff, meaning arms and armor, that I don't, I really don't like it anymore for a reason that we're coming to.
But also, you once interviewed an exorcist, did you not?
An American gentleman.
Yeah.
Which was fabulous.
And he was talking about demonic infestation.
He was saying that basically places can wind up playing host to these entities.
And I found twice in my life that I've handled weapons and it's not been a happy experience.
Really?
Yeah.
One was a Japanese arrowhead, a ceremonial, beautiful Japanese arrowhead.
It was cut out, had fretwork and Japanese kanji characters.
And apparently, these arrowheads were shot at religious festivals as an act of opening or closing.
I can't remember the details of that.
But anyway, there we are.
And I went to see a friend of mine who had the finest collection of Japanese armor in Britain, sold now, gone back to Japan.
And.
He was out the room and there were a series of arrowheads on the mantelpiece over the fireplace.
And I saw this one and I thought, oh, that's lovely.
And I picked it up and it was like I just stuck my fingers in the mains.
I got a belt off it.
Absolutely bang, I had to drop it.
So there's something attached to that arrowhead.
Very, you know, that was a hell of a shock.
So it had a sort of demonic attachment.
Was it had something attached to it, but there was a very clear example I had once somebody showed me an Italian type of dagger called a stiletto, that's a name most people will know.
Yeah, um, and they associate them with assassins, but they were carried by all men and soldiers.
The guy showed it to me, and this guy was divorced by this stage.
He said, I used to keep it by the bed, my wife didn't like it.
Well, no, and when he handed it to me, It felt revolting, it just felt horrible.
And when I put it down, I you know, that feeling like you want to wash your hands, it was just absolutely vile what came off that thing.
So, what I mean, think of the situations these objects have been through, they've been used to kill, they've been used in battle.
So, you know, whatever is getting attached to them.
Whether people might call it frequency or energy or demonic, something can get attached to these objects for sure.
And in my experience, they also attract not very nice people because of those associations.
Isn't it weird?
This gives me the opportunity to retell my Alistair Crowley's wand story.
Oh, yes.
Where I went to the house where the owner.
Has Alistair Crowley's wand to Alistair Crowley.
And he said, Do you want to hold it?
I said, Yeah.
I mean, I want to be able to tell people I've held Alistair Crowley's wand.
And I got nothing off it.
I mean, I wonder how it would be now.
I wonder what the reaction would be now, whether now I'm sort of proper Christian and kind of attuned to these things, maybe.
I just remember thinking, expecting something, some sort of, to have some sort of feel some dark power there and be repelled by it.
But it didn't really happen.
It just felt sort of nothing.
So.
Well, I got those feelings off those objects while I was still in Normie World.
Although I've, you know, I've always got atmospheres.
Being around some people, you just want to.
Get out of the room fast.
So there was always some level of sensitivity, anyway.
But while you're just mentioning Christianity, anyway, a thank you to you because you're one of the people responsible for white pilling me.
I always love hearing that because I do sometimes feel like I'm a really rubbish Christian, and it's nice to feel that I'm serving some useful purpose.
So, thank you.
I'm glad.
Glad to be of service.
And over there on top of the wardrobe is my Coverdale copy of the Psalms as well.
Oh, is it?
And that's specifically down to you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don't ask me for my favorite because I'm still working my way in very slowly, but thanks.
It is given to very few, Chris, to know the Psalms as well as I now do.
I mean, I am approaching monk level.
Although I exaggerate.
I mean, I've still only got about 35 under my belt.
Psalms and Monk Level Knowledge00:03:19
But yeah, I mean, if you read them every day, you do get a working knowledge of them, put it that way.
But yeah, everyone, if you're going to do the Psalms, I recommend the Coverdale version.
It's better than the KJV.
It's the one that gets used in the Book of Common Prayer.
Do you want to tell me about the guy that puts you off armour forever?
Well, yeah, what I'll do is I'll just say quickly as a preface to this because I know you sometimes ask people what it was that first precipitated their fall down the rabbit hole.
The very, very first beginnings of that were when Britain pulled out of.
Afghanistan, when the British left Kabul a few years ago, I was listening to a Radio 4 show called Broadcasting House on a Sunday morning.
So the magazine show, which I used to really enjoy.
And this was timed to be on the pullout on a Sunday morning.
They did a report from the courtyard of a house in Kabul and they were going on about birdsong, how quiet and peaceful it was and wonderful.
And I was like, ah, lovely.
Yeah, fine.
Yeah, I listened to the show.
And then later on that day, I was watching Italian TV.
And the Italian TV covered the stories of the car bombings that took place in Kapul on the same day.
And Italian TV doesn't spare you.
You know, if there's a mafia killing here, you see the bullet holes all over the car, you see the blood running down the street.
You know, they don't spare you, not like British TV.
And so, anyway, car bombings, lots of dead.
And I thought, oh.
Oh, that must have happened after the BBC report, I know.
And because I still foolishly looked at the BBC news website in those days, in the following days I thought, oh, well, it's going to show up.
You know, there'll be a report on the BBC website.
Nothing.
Not a thing.
So that was the first little chink of light where I realised that that was pure propaganda.
That Sunday morning radio show was just pure propaganda.
And then they buried the violence that happened afterwards.
So then, my proper tumble down the rabbit hole, and it precipitated me finding things like I stopped listening to BBC radio, began listening to talk radio, then talk TV, then realised, no, no, no, you know how it is, you keep tumbling further down.
Yeah, yeah.
Then I found you, you were a guest on some show, whatever, I was reading Breitbart, so I found you.
And then the UK column.
Germ warfare and these various other, you know, awake, if that's the word to use, folk.
And when I first, for example, was watching videos like yours on Odyssey, I've really had that.
Should I even be on this website?
You know, oh no, I might wind up on a government list if I look at these things, not knowing that I already was.
Antiques Trade Cabal00:15:25
So it really made no difference at all.
So tumbling down the rabbit hole started because I used to restore armor.
For people, not just for museums, but for people in the antiques trade.
And you get a lot of Freemasons in the antiques trade.
And.
Why?
Money, power.
That's how.
That's what draws them always, money and power.
And are they also after kind of stuff with occult significance, like grimoires or stuff like that?
Not in my experience.
I mean, full disclosure, I nearly went in myself.
I made some swords for them.
I got to know.
Some Freemasons around Cambridge and places like Sudbury and Clare, because I used to live in East Anglia.
And after a lifetime of being an outsider, these are nice guys, I thought.
And I thought, wow, why not?
Because they were making it very clear I'd be welcome.
They don't, technically speaking, they don't ask you.
You have to ask to go in.
And there's a karmic thing there going on.
Because if you go to them and you say, I wish to go in, Then it's on you.
See?
So, I'd been making some swords for these people, ceremonial swords, and they showed me some of their swords, and they've got skulls and crossbones on them.
And I was still in Normie World then, and I thought, oh, it's a bit odd.
But, you know, but no, these are symbols of death.
And they certainly are into the occult, of course.
I see the way it worked.
The way it worked is, You go in, and a lot of people on the low levels are nice guys, and I'm sorry to have to say it, but they are the useful idiots.
You know, you go in at the low level, and then they gradually start to reveal more and more and more to you.
And by the time you start to find out just who their great architect is, and it's certainly not God, you're in.
It's too late.
And from the Masons I met, they just like the party whips in the British political system, they like someone who's compromised.
Because then, if they help you out, they own you.
And as one mason put it to me very bluntly, he said, when they ask you for help, you do not say no.
So, anyway, my going in was stymied by a guy I had been working for in the antiques trade, and he treated me so horribly.
I was very well paid, but it was just unbearable.
The rudeness, the manipulation, the mind games.
And I just thought, sod it, no.
And I didn't tell him to F off.
I was quite polite about it, and I said, We're done.
I'm not doing this for you anymore.
We're done.
And I didn't realize he'd already been, he knew this was coming.
And he'd already set me up with a new friend.
You know, he was then having work passed on to me from other people.
And basically, what started then was a steady destruction of my work as a restorer in the trade.
And not to drive me out completely, that's quite important to say.
But it was simply to drive away any other clients.
So there would only be one person for me to go back to if I wanted to have that good living that I had before.
So that was going on steadily.
And.
I didn't know, but joining the dots afterwards, the local lodge in Clare will have been keeping tabs on me, and it made sense to me of why I got some very funny looks off people who I knew were members at the time.
Local pharmacist, for example.
And when I was due to go in, it was firmly blocked.
And one of the people who wanted me to go in, they did want to help, but they very apologetically said to me, I'm sorry, they are too powerful.
Were the words he used.
So we're talking about.
You were trying to get into what?
You were trying to get into.
No, I was supposed to go in as a member of.
to become a Freemason.
And I literally.
Oh, is this right?
Yeah.
And I literally thank God I didn't, because it's not an exaggeration to say that that will have saved my soul.
But they turned Eden.
Yeah.
No, they wanted me in.
What happened was my principal antagonist intervened.
Yes.
Because these are all different lodges.
So the local lodge in Clare was keeping tabs on me, but these fellas were members of lodges in Cambridge and in Sudbury.
So it wasn't until.
Now, what really brought this out of the woodwork was, and here's another little nugget for you I lectured to the Freemasons in a lodge in Cambridge one night.
They asked me to give a lecture about.
Symbolism of the Knights of Malta on armour, which I did.
And some of them were Templars.
And yes, they do wear the robes.
Yep, they get up in the robes.
And they were there.
And it was when I gave that lecture that members of the different lodges all came together in the same room.
And at that point, that sent up a red flag for my principal antagonist because then he knew that other Masons were inviting me to go in or wanted me to go in.
And at that point, it was firmly blocked.
Good, good.
I'm grateful.
It's unusual.
Incidentally, yeah, incidentally, um, I think you mentioned you had someone who was a family member, perhaps who was amazing.
And these people, yeah, they can be very nice, all very hale and well met.
And it's a great boozing and eating club at the lower levels.
Um, as one guy said to me, you have to forgive us, we're a bunch of dipsomaniacs here, and they were very nice, but.
When that block came down, people who I had known as becoming real friends with them, really, I thought nice guys.
That was it.
I had one guy I saw in the local Sainsbury's, and I went over to him.
I said, Hi, hi.
And he literally turned his back on me physically.
And I had to stand within inches of him saying, Hello, hello.
And then he was incredibly embarrassed.
Only then would he actually turn and speak to me.
Because he had been told, You stay away from this person.
Dear, oh dear.
So, this is the whole point.
When push comes to shove, they will do as they're told.
Yeah.
So anyway, you wouldn't want that, would you?
No.
So anyway, as time goes on, two Masons independently, I'd known for years that something was wrong, problems with the bank, problems with my phone company, you name it.
And two people independently confirmed that no, I wasn't seeing things or imagining things.
No, it really was going on.
And then that was laterally confirmed by a third person.
Mason from the USA.
So, fast forward to me moving to Italy in 2017, something I'd always wanted to do and had been stymied several times, and I now know who was doing the styming.
And once I got here, there was one Mason from a major city near here, and I was doing some work for him.
And I know he was a mason, he never told me, but I know he was because he used the formula of words to introduce himself to someone who I knew here.
And the words he used in Italian were exactly the same as the formula of words used in English by one of the masons I knew in the UK.
They have certain phrases they use to introduce themselves to each other, so they'll they will know if they're dealing with a brother, if you like.
Yes, so he gave me restoration work to do on.
Six armors, and this was by now we're in 2019.
And this is an antiques dealer, and he previously treated me very well.
But from the moment I accepted the commission, every single trick in the book came out to screw me around.
I'll try and romp through this quite briefly, but essentially, he was trying to put me in a position where I could be blackmailed.
Firstly, by paying me an awful lot of cash off the books, which I didn't want, but doing it in such a way with very large denomination banknotes that can only be paid into banks here 500 euro notes.
So he was trying to pay me in a way which would be visible.
And I once said to him, I suppose I could pay the rent with one of these.
And he jumped in and said, No, no, it's illegal to pay the rent in cash in Italy.
No, it isn't.
What he was trying to do was compromise me by paying me 15,000 euros in cash.
Which was the amount for the whole commission, and not get any invoices for it.
And I smelt a rat, and so did my accountant.
I have a guy called, he's a commercialista.
That's a cross between an accountant and a lawyer.
And he looks after me very well.
And I discussed it at length with him, and he said, No, no, you're going to invoice for this, which is what I wanted to do anyway.
And so the guy was trying to pay me cash in such a way it would be visible, okay?
Couldn't be hidden.
I confronted him over that, slapped the invoices down in front of him next time he came to see me, and told him I knew who his business partner was in this venture.
It was my old antagonist in the UK.
And what followed was a masterclass in body language of somebody caught out lying through their teeth.
So I knew my old antagonist in the UK was involved.
When that failed, I was then offered work on some swords.
Swords in Italy are treated like firearms, you can't work on them without an armourer's permit.
Okay, that's a modern gunsmith's permit.
And this antique dealer had already asked me if I possessed such a permit.
And I'd said no.
I didn't realise he was checking the ground first.
Just seeing whether I could be compromised that way.
So then a guy from another Italian city on the other side of Italy offered me some work on some swords.
And I went, oh, okay.
But I did a very sensible thing.
I went to the police first and I checked.
I said, can I do this?
And the police officer said, absolutely not.
No, it would be like unlicensed work on firearms, serious offense.
And the first Italian dealer I mentioned, he dropped something into a subsequent conversation.
So he knew he was part of it.
So, when the cash didn't work, they tried to set me up with working on basically illegal work on what would have been classed as firearms.
Serious.
Then, when that didn't work, I was offered work on an excavated helmet, a medieval helmet, from someone in another European country.
Yeah.
And they wanted to, they came down to Italy a lot, so they said, right, I'll stop by and leave this thing with you.
And I said, no, you won't.
I will send you a document of provenance for you to fill in.
Because antiques here have their own passports attached to them.
It's called a documento di trasporto.
And it's because so many things get excavated here and then sold.
Again, you can't be in possession of an excavated piece without it ringing alarm bells.
And I said, absolutely not.
No, you will fill this document in.
You will tell me when you're coming.
You'll make an appointment.
And he just vanished.
So, firstly, the money, then the swords.
Then an excavated piece.
And I was telling this story to my friends here.
And one of them just said, as if it was completely normal, they said, Oh, they're trying to blackmail you.
So I was being set up at that point.
So the restoration of the six armors had to be enough.
I'm willing to bet, I haven't checked, but I'm willing to bet the amount of money had to be enough for it not to be a simple fine and a slap on the wrist for not declaring some earnings.
It would have to be something with a prison sentence attached to it.
Yeah.
And then undoubtedly the plan was going to be.
Get me in a compromising position, and then I go screaming to my contacts here saying, What do I do?
What do I do?
And it's, Well, we could help you, but we'd need a favor.
You know, it was like that.
And that went on.
I really couldn't give two shits, is the blush.
I'm sure the devil's own harness.
That could be the thing.
Something, something.
There you go.
Well, as a brief aside, there is the devil's armour in Udine in the north of Italy because it had a two part base for the crest, which looks like two horns.
So that is nicknamed the devil's armour.
Anyway, I found out from a Freemason in the USA, we're now in 2020.
And I was telling him about all this, and he said it would appear that somebody had sold a very valuable antique to a wealthy collector, and that included your input.
But the client had grown tired of waiting and wanted his money back, and it was a considerable amount of money, which the dealer was then having trouble repaying.
Now, that may or may not be true, but the aesthetic.
The essential truth at the base of this is a group, a little cabal within the antiques trade, I'm sure bought something and they did it knowing the only way they could make the money they wanted to make out of it, and that would not be inconsiderable, was by having me work on it.
But from the off, they knew I would say no, so it can't be anything legal.
And you know, that they tried the game with the cash from the word go, and that was when I was still working for that dealer.
In that city, not far from here, so that means they were planning to blackmail me from the word go.
They're nice like that.
So, now with regard to what it is, I don't, regardless of what I might think, regardless of things I've been told, I don't want to know.
And now we're going to get to why I feel different about this stuff.
Now, ever since now, this whole vendetta thing has worked at two levels, we've had what you might call the foot soldiers down at the bottom.
Blackmail Tools Disappeared00:14:27
These people in the trade, and then you have right at the top the Freemason element because I have been completely disappeared, you know.
And this I know when it happened, it happened in 2020 because my website suddenly got massive amounts of visits, it went up from a few hundred a month to nearly 3,000.
And at first, I thought, oh, well, be great, but although I sell ebooks and things online.
I should have expected my sales to go up, not necessarily by the same amount, but the internet is a numbers game.
And if the traffic on your website goes up by the power of 10, you would expect your sales to at least go up to an extent.
And they flatlined.
The opposite happened, they died.
And then the traffic on the website came down over three months.
And I now realized that by the time it had come back down to what I thought was normal, it was gone.
By then, Google had disappeared me.
And so I've been censored by Google, I've been censored by Amazon, YouTube as well for the videos I put on there.
I know my websites have been attacked with bot traffic.
Some of the people visiting were real.
But here's the thing now, these people didn't want to drive me out of the field because they want me to do that work clearly.
And they still want me to do it.
I know that.
Whatever it is.
Whatever it is.
Must be really good.
These things could be worth millions.
Right.
And the amount of money they've dropped on this already, well, sort of pissed away down the loo.
What they did was this.
You may remember the television show Lovejoy back in the 90s about the lovable, rogue antiques dealer.
Yeah, Ian McShane, yeah.
Well, I can't even bear to watch those anymore now because this sort of lovable, rogue thing about antiques dealers.
Oh, the books by the author is called Jonathan Gash.
He's a doctor whose real name is John Grant.
And in the books, Lovejoy kills people not infrequently.
So the books are somewhat closer to the real antiques world.
But anyway, what happened was I'd been disappeared off the internet.
But now, if you think, screw this, it's not worth it, I'll just go and do something else.
Instead, I found myself in a version of The Truman Show.
I'd think of it as the Lovejoy show in this case.
They then provided me with a whole raft of new clients who were buying the books I was writing, like the ones I sent for you and Dick.
And so this included, and I won't say they're people, hundreds of identities.
I know some of them are real, some of them weren't.
They, for effect, they even killed one of them off once.
And I apparently had this guy's widow writing to me.
It's just bizarre.
And what they've always tried to do is block my work.
With art, you know, which we'll mention at the end, and try and drag me back into the world of arms and armor.
So, hence the trouble they've gone to, the money they've spent, whatever it is, and truly, I couldn't give two shits what it is I'm supposed to do or supposed to work on.
The money they think they're going to make out of this has got to have six zeros at the end of it.
And I suspect they've lost a lot already because they must have bought this thing or things, whatever they are.
So, they're out of pocket.
To a huge amount, I would think.
And they expected to be able to make that back and make a vast profit at the end of it.
And I have news for them it's never going to happen.
And here's where we come to how I feel about the stuff now.
Truly, this may come as a surprise, but knowing what I know now, I would happily see every piece of armour and every weapon in every museum go into a car crusher tomorrow.
Happily.
That's the way I feel about that stuff now.
I can take a detached academic view of it now with regard to the history side, with regard to military history, but you could not pay me to touch that stuff ever again.
And here's a word to the wise.
If someone actually did sidle up to me now and say, Look, it's this, you know, would you please work on this?
And they put, let's say, some fabulous helmet down on the bench in front of me.
If I had a hammer in my hand, I would reduce it to a mallet.
An archer's mallet.
Yes, I would.
I won't use the language I was going to use.
Just isn't that slightly, you're taking out your personal experiences on the whole of.
The whole of armour.
I mean, surely the armour doesn't deserve that.
Yes.
In my humble opinion, yes.
I'll give you an idea.
Again, this will come as another surprise.
And there's another little anecdote in here, which I haven't mentioned to you yet.
I was a top drawer restorer for a long time.
And I had tools which were original armourers' tools, which went back to the 16th century.
And I'd sort of pick them up from here and there.
And I also had 19th century sort of tinsmiths and coppersmiths tools, which was similar, and some I had made when I set up my business in 1985.
And so I had a fully equipped armorer's workshop, you know, very particular tooling.
And I got to a point last year where I realised these tools are going to have to go.
Because as long as I've got a workshop, these jokers are going to keep coming back and back and back because they'll think they've got a chance.
Uh, tricking me into getting me into a position where finally they can do it, yeah.
And bearing in mind for your audience, this has been going on since 2019, so this is seven years and counting.
And not only that, they must have been planning it before 2019, so this is a long time.
This has been going on already.
Um, and at first, you might think, I mean, imagine same with you that you have to decide to never ride again, that you can't have anything to do with horses ever again.
People will think that for a craftsman, and then any other artisans out there in your audience will probably be thinking, How the hell could you do that?
If that was your life for 40 years, you know, for a craftsman, the tools become a part of you.
And I just thought, No, these bloody things are a curse.
As long as I've got them, this is never going to stop.
So I got rid of them.
And here comes the anecdote.
I had to make it absolutely public because I thought, if I just say I've got rid of them, they're not going to believe me.
These people lie as easily as breathe, so they'll assume I'm lying as well.
So I publicly put on my website, knowing if no one else would see it, they would, because being heavily monitored.
And I began emailing people who I knew were other armors who just make armor for reenactment purposes, like Dick.
And I got a panicked email from a museum which is going to remain nameless to save their blushes.
And the curator saying, who'd bought my books, who said, don't, put any more of this online.
We'll have the lot.
Okay, we'll buy the lot.
And I thought, oh, good, jolly good.
So we arrived at a price and the museum in question paid.
And I thought, oh, well, at least they're going to have a good home.
You know, that's good.
And I'm now completely emotionally divorced from them.
I'm glad they've gone.
That's fine.
I don't feel bad about it.
But then what happened was this.
Then I said, Right, when are you going to come and take these things away?
And the curator said, Ah, well, we're dealing just by chance.
We're dealing with, here we go, we're dealing with another business in your area.
In fact, the town, the next town over.
What a coincidence.
And he said, Look, we haven't.
We haven't come to terms with them yet about what we want to buy.
We hope to be able to conclude our dealings with that business and come over there to collect everything in the first half of next year.
We hope this was October last year.
So, this guy is saying, having just dropped nearly 9,000 euros in public funds, he's saying, Ah, you hang on to the tools.
Okay, we'll come and get them sometime next year, hopefully in the first half.
And that was a huge red flag for me.
I thought, Hang on a minute.
This is a guy who was desperate to stop me selling them to anybody else.
Then they come up with the money for their museum.
And then they want to leave me with the damn things.
So at first I thought, well, I'll have to go into storage.
And then I thought, no, I would still have access to them.
So I could see how this could then be a temptation if I were placed in that position of difficulty where the way out would be to do that work, then I'd still have access to them.
And I also had a word with a friend of mine who.
It was used to procurement purposes from a European government.
And they said, this stinks.
There's no way a public body are going to drop nearly 9,000 euros and then say, ah, well, sometime next year, maybe.
So I wrote a long and detailed email to the civil servant in charge of the government body that runs that museum.
And I said, Do you know this is going to sound absurd?
I know, but it's almost as if somebody bought those tools or paid me the money with the explicit intention of then leaving them with me, but in the process stopping anyone else from buying them.
Isn't that, isn't that odd?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I said, Look, if it turns out that, let's say, a sponsor, you know, a philanthropist, shall we say, if a sponsor, Came up with the money for your museum, and it's because of that.
It's ah, it's no hurry, you know, leave him with him for the moment.
We'll sort it out when you like.
I said, I am not going to babysit these tools to suit your sponsor, you are going to come and take them away now.
And I got a very polite email back within 24 hours, and it was really quite to the point, considering he was obviously not going to crap all over his subordinate publicly.
But he said he had no right to buy anything.
He's not competent to make acquisitions for this museum.
End of story.
And then he said, of course, we will arrange shipping immediately.
So it confirmed absolutely they weren't being bought by that museum.
But yes, but that's interesting to get a glimpse of how the network, because presumably he was a Mason as well.
Exactly, yeah.
And this is how the payment system works.
Yeah, and all I will say about that museum is it's in a place with heavy connections to the Masons.
I'll just leave it at that.
People can work that out for themselves.
But yeah, yeah, exactly.
So you see, I was trying to get rid of those tools, and the first thing they did was, we've got to stop this.
Because if he gets rid of those, where are we, you know?
And now, a last little thing on that story is.
You know, I did Germs podcast for the UK column recently.
And a few days later, I got a phone call.
Now, the sort of, let's face it, the sort of people I'm having trouble with will not be avid viewers of the UK column.
Far from it, I think.
But the UK column will, of course, be heavily monitored by the powers that shouldn't be, obviously.
And what must have happened was.
When Brian Gerrish uttered the words, and tonight on UK, you know, German warfare podcast, we'll have Chris Dobson, that will have sent up a red flag straight away.
And so a few days later, this guy phones me.
And he says, he was in France.
And he said, whoa, well, after what you were talking about on the podcast, I thought you sound like an approachable guy.
So I thought I'd phone you up.
Yes, never explained where he got my phone number from.
It's not on the website.
So, you know, you get these constant giveaways the whole time because they're not very good actors.
And he said, after what you were talking about on the podcast, you're probably going to view a phone call like this out of the blue as a bit suspicious.
And I said, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
But he ploughed on, bless him, he kept going.
And he claimed to be an artist.
He claimed to just want to ask some questions about Renaissance art.
And then he just went straight on talking about armour.
And then at a certain point, he said, Oh, I used to collect German Picklehauber, you know, the helmets with the spike on the top.
Breaking the Silence00:06:54
Of course.
Justin.
Right, exactly.
And I thought, Oh, right, so you're now telling me you're a collector.
And you know when it's coming.
He was nervous from the beginning of the call.
And then at a certain point, and I thought, here it comes.
So he said, You don't still run a workshop, do you?
And I just couldn't get him off the phone fast enough after that.
There's a movie in this.
It's got a shit ending, of course.
You don't get to see what this armour is, and you don't get to the scene where you pay the terrible price.
Well done.
Well done for holding out.
Thank you.
And I mean, I have no doubt they'll be watching this podcast as well.
I mean, you'll be monitored for sure.
Unless you're controlled.
Fine, unless you're controlled opposition, of course, in which case they won't bother.
How would that work?
What use would I be?
Give me one possible way I could be helping the enemy.
I mean, well, not really.
I'd be a shit ass.
You're shilling for Russia?
No, no, no.
You're punting Russia.
I'm shilling for Russia.
So you're shilling for Russia, Germany's shilling for China.
Patrick Henningsen is shilling for Iran, you know, and so on and so forth.
Yeah.
So, anyway.
Putin.
Yes.
I think that's in the same way.
I love Putin.
I think.
I haven't got my pronunciation right yet, but.
Okay.
So, anyway, so that brings us to the end of my sort of Masonic saga.
So they're still at it, they still haven't learned their lesson.
And.
It's awfully sad, Chris, that this was your life.
No, it's not your life.
I hope that the warm glow you get of having.
Not engage with evil as sort of compensated in some way.
Well, one of the disadvantages of getting white pilled is it does tend to get you asking questions about what is the point of all this, please?
Why am I going through this?
And I'm sure as they've been monitoring my communications, thanks to Google, someone locally confirmed for me that, yeah, Google have tier one access when you have a website parked on their servers.
And that explained a great deal about how they seemed to be reading my thoughts recently.
No, they weren't reading my thoughts, they were reading emails.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Well, it's, it is, look, it's a, it's espionage 101.
You have to have a feedback loop.
You have to know that what you're doing is actually taking you where you want to go.
So, and you, you will know that from the enemy's communications.
Interesting.
And I will be, yeah.
You've, you've, you've sparked a thought.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's true.
I've experienced this.
They do actually have people saying, you know, so how's, how's James coping with this or that?
And you think, oh, Hang on a second.
This is all orchestrated.
Anyway, I won't go there now.
Chris, it's been great.
I've actually got to go now because I do a fascinating podcast and thank you.
Tell us, is there anything you want to sell?
Do you want to sell your books?
What do you want to talk about in terms of painting?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Right.
For people interested in military history and Renaissance art history, which is what I now do, I fell in love with the art itself.
And that's what I write about now.
And I've got a book coming out very shortly about three paintings by the artist Paolo Uccello, which are thought to be the Battle of San Romano, which was 1432.
And what I've done is I've used my experience of unpicking layers of mystery in my own life and my experience with real armor.
And I show what the paintings actually show.
And it's called San Romano, The Art of War.
And.
It's on my website at, and here it is, it's Chris Dobson.
That's all one word, Chris Dobson.it for Italy.
So Chris Dobson.it.
And if people want to head over there, they can find my.
You went to Florence recently, didn't you?
Yeah, I loved it.
You can find my book on the Ponte Vecchio of Florence, 3,000 years of history in that one.
Another one about the medieval towers that used to loom over the city in the Middle Ages.
And you'll find a new one about San Romano, and you can find my podcast there as well.
So, if people want to help break this damn silence that's been put around me, come over to my website, you know, spend a little bit of money, and also, as that website is pretty much tailored for normies, if you have friends who are into history, tell your normie friends as well.
So, I'll just say briefly, I looked at your book this morning.
I can't say I read the whole thing, but I gave it a kind of A thorough skim read, and it's fascinating.
I mean, the detail that your knowledge of materials, artistic materials, of obviously armor, of technique, and you've got the burns to show it the burn scars.
You've got you've done all this stuff, you've lived all this stuff.
So, I'm sure that your book about um, uccello be very, very interesting.
Um, thank you, Chris Dobson.
I'll put the details below, and um, everyone else, thank you for thank you for.
Watching my stuff, and do please continue to support me.
You can actually support me direct now on my website, which is jamesstellingpole.co.uk, or you can buy me a coffee, support my sponsors, obviously, and keep listening.
And yeah, thank you.
Thank you for enjoying my stuff.
Bye bye.
Um, good, right?
I've got to go, Chris.
Great talking to you.
Um, okay, you are you're only 73 uploaded, so you've you've you can please leave your computer on until it's uploaded.
Okay, thank you very much.
Just just before you do disappear completely, yeah, um, uh.