John Waters is a legend of Irish journalism who woke up and saw the light. James and John enjoy just the kind of rambling, amiable, insightful chat you would have hoped and expected. John’s new book of collected essays - which can also be used as a doorstop or defensive weapon - is out now.
https://www.johnwaters.ie/books/
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Welcome back to the Delling Pod, not before time, John Waters.
I was looking.
I think our last thing was in 2023, but it feels longer.
I can't remember.
It feels like a long time.
23 is quite a long.
It's two years ago.
So that's a long time.
Do you not feel that time is accelerating?
I just feel that the gap between now and 2023 feels to me almost as big as the gap between, say, 2023 and 1990.
Because everything's accelerating.
It is, yeah.
I think it is.
That's aging, James, I think, or so they say.
I find that all the time.
And it's absolutely staggering because it's very, it's exponential, really.
It's not like even just accelerating.
It's like, yeah, it's a very dangerous thing to do, you know, when you start comparing periods of time, you know, the period of time between now and your next important birthday and how long ago that seems in the past, which is always a very short time, it seems like, oh, gosh, that's no time, and then I'll be 80 or whatever, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
And it seems impossible.
It's, whereas when we were kids, time just crawled and you could, days were, lasted forever.
Yeah.
The joy, the joy of, of boredom, which we hated at the time, but we now look back on nostalgically as being, yeah, we could just let our minds wander.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, now, boredom in every way, James.
I mean, wouldn't you love a boring life now?
Yeah.
Wouldn't you love that there was nothing to be, you know, worried about, excited about?
Funnily enough, John, I've been working on it, actually, and I've decided that the country life is so much better than the town life.
And I was thinking, I was thinking about my weekend.
I'll tell you about one of the highlights of my weekend.
This is how much, this is how action-packed my weekends are these days.
So, probably the high point of my weekend was when I decided to buy some eggs from the roadside container, where you, they put the eggs in the container, and then you put the money in the honesty box.
And I was worried that the eggs would run out before I, I hadn't got any cash.
So, I took the eggs and then went home with the intention of coming back maybe the next day on the way to church.
And I mentioned this to the wife, and the wife said, no, you mustn't do that, because they'll think that somebody's going to nick their eggs, so you must go back now with the money.
And so, I did, and then I knocked on the door of the house, the big house I thought it was, and the man said, no, these aren't our eggs, they belong to Rosie next door.
So, I went to Rosie next door, and I had a long chat with her about eggs and about hunting.
And then I came home.
That was the, that was the high point, the big excitement of my weekend.
Yeah.
That's how it should be, I think.
That is how it should be, yeah.
Sometimes it is for me, you know.
I had a similar day last week, where I was making blackberry jam.
Oh, yeah.
And it's all very tragic, because I had a garden for a few years, but the weather, because of the geoengineering, et cetera, the weather became impossible to deal with.
And I became older as well.
So, I had to stop a lot of stuff.
I planned to make it happen again next year, but that's another day to work.
But I kind of look at making blackberry jam as the one ritual left in the year that gives me an entitlement to have wellies inside the front door, you know.
And that means a lot to me.
Do you remove the pips?
Hmm?
Do you remove the pips?
You make jelly, not jam, I hope.
No, I make jam.
So, you've got horrible, evil blackcurrant pips that get in your, sorry, blackberry pips that get in your teeth.
Yes.
But they're softened.
I boil it up well, so they're nice and soft.
Don't worry.
It's fine.
It's, James, it is the nicest jam you ever had.
You would, you know, you would faint if you had some.
I've heard this from blackberry jam advocates.
I have to tell you, John, and this is quite contentious, I am not the world's biggest black blackberry fan.
I don't like the pips, but maybe you've ironed those out.
But even the taste is not, it's just like, it's not up there with, um.
Are you sure there isn't some kind of, you know, deep prejudice against black?
Probably, yeah.
yeah.
I was probably um scratched by by too many brambles in my childhood, and I blame them.
Oh, they are, they are very, very, very, they're horrible, you know, you come out with your arms, you can never be certain that, uh, you know, how much blood is actually in the jam, you know, because of the amount of bleeding you do when you're picking them, you know, for sure.
Yeah, but I wash them carefully and all that.
I do all the skull, the jars, and everything, you know, whatever you call that.
I do everything properly.
And so at the end, I feel like I'm a farmer again or something, something like that.
I'd just like to say, for those of us, for those viewers and listeners who are thinking, this is just two batty old men going off on one about stuff of no interest to me.
Actually, I think we're engaging with the essence of what really matters, which is that you and I and people like us, the awake people, whatever you want to say, have become aware that the world is run by people who want to immiserate us and ideally destroy us in many cases.
And our mission is to live a good life and live in the world as God meant us to live in it and enjoy things that matter, like friendship, like food.
Ideally, food we've grown ourselves or foraged for ourselves and prepared ourselves.
This is the way we fight back, I think.
We're not going to do it by manning the barricades and making pipe bombs and things because they've got a monopoly of violence that they'll destroy us and that's what they want anyway.
Well, exactly.
I completely agree with that.
I mean, we do our thing in a sense in resisting, but that's kind of like work.
But in living our lives, the things are important, you know, with our children.
And my granddaughter, I'm a grandfather since I saw you last, James.
Oh, congratulations.
I'm a grandfather as well.
So congratulations to you too.
When did that happen?
Oh, my granddaughter is six years old.
All right.
Okay.
I've played this for a long time.
You beat me to it.
And you're only a young fella.
I don't take that.
I never take grandparents seriously until they're 70.
Sorry.
I do need the grizzled look.
I agree.
You don't look like a grandfather.
I look, I'm Daly.
See, that's why I've got this white beard now.
It's excellent.
You look like granddad.
Yes.
I'm actually called granddad.
I'm called Dado, which is the Irish word for granddad.
Dado.
I don't like granddad.
There are far too many granddads around the place.
Daddo.
I like that.
Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah.
So, yeah, but you're exactly right.
Because, I mean, what you want to be able to show your grandchildren is, you know, how to make stuff like that or where it comes from and how the world is really.
See, I think that ultimately the countryside is the wilderness, is the religious zone, is the spiritual zone, whereas the city is the man-made zone.
And it tells you what you should do at every turn and where you should go and what you should be doing.
Whereas out in the countryside, you're out in the open.
There are no rules, really.
You just have to be fully in the world.
And I think that's the difference.
Fundamentally, that's why they're trying to eliminate farming and rural life and all that kind of stuff.
Yes, they are.
And it's why we're such a threat to them.
Because we do notice things like the rhythms of nature and the changing seasons.
And we notice tiny details.
I mean, when you live in the country, you go for a walk on the same route every day.
And every day throughout the year, you notice subtle shifts or you see different things.
Maybe, I mean, at the moment, the house martins are gathering for their migration south, and it's just a joy.
And at the same time, it's kind of it's quite sad because you know you're about to lose them, but it's so exciting seeing them skittering around the skies.
And there's about 150 outside our house at the moment.
It's glorious to watch.
Oh, yeah.
Well, I would find that sad, actually.
I think maybe because I'm considerably older than you, you know, you know, everything that you've seen, I see now.
I know that I, in a, I don't know, obviously, the time I have left, that's the great mystery, and I'm grateful for that.
But, you know, that there are a limited number, and it's probably no more than whatever.
You know, I won't say a number, but so therefore, each time that something like that happens, it's sadder than it ever was before.
I've reconciled, I decided some time ago that I'm probably going to get bumped off in some way.
So I've already sort of bidden farewell in my head to a long old age.
I don't think it's going to happen.
I mean, if it does happen, result.
But I'm not too hung up on things.
I just sort of made my peace with God and I'm hoping he sees me right when it all kicks off.
And that's it.
And I try otherwise to sort of live by the day.
Yeah, that's the best way.
That's what I do as well when I'm not delving deep into this absolute shit that we have to deal with all the time.
But yeah, that's the way I live my life, which is different to my work.
You know, it's the only way.
And it's the only way you can actually look at your children or your grandchildren and not burst into tears all the time.
Yes, I definitely try not to think about that at all.
So you and I, when we last spoke, we felt a tremendous bond because you and I, I mean, there are other examples, but there are not many.
You and I are among the very few people who worked in the mainstream media to a degree and saw through everything, and suddenly realized that our whole lives, without really knowing it, we'd been working for the enemy.
Yes.
Yes, somewhat.
Yes, I think so.
I'm not sure I was, I mean, I've listened to some of the things you may you've said about this, James, and I've been very interested in some of the things I had never occurred to me about the kind of devices that were used in the media, you know, to promote the agendas and narratives and all that.
For example, your thing about anniversaries, this obsession with anniversaries in the media.
I was fascinated by that because as soon as you said it, I said, of course, of course, I've been thinking, I've noticed that for years, but I thought it was just a way of filling space in some convenient way.
But you're dead right.
It's something else.
It's hammering home certain signposts in reality that we're supposed to be looking at, isn't it?
There's always the ostensible reason, the official reason they do something, and then there's always the underlying reason.
So, yeah, it was just that.
Thank you for noticing that one.
It was just, it was just an insight, a random insight I had.
And like you, I thought, well, running an anniversary commemorative piece, it's what you do.
You fill space because you don't know what the new stories are going to be coming in.
So you want something for ready prepared.
So you prepare the story.
And quiz shows, I don't know whether you've noticed this one, serve a similar function.
The idea is to encourage people to absorb information and regurgitate it.
And if you absorb the information well, you get patted on the back and you win the quiz prize and stuff.
You beat the chasers or you sit in the mastermind chair and show how clever you are.
But it's not about that, really.
I mean, it's not about, it's not really about the challenge.
That's just the notional reason.
The real reason is to embed in the public imagination all the things that they feel that they want you to learn.
Yes.
I'm reading a book at the moment.
It's an old book from 1965 by Jack Elul, the French philosopher.
He was a Christian philosopher.
And it's about, it's called The Illusion of Politics.
But the section I was really interested in was a section about mass media.
This is written in 1965, which is show you like how that his thinking was quite advanced for that time.
And his general point is that the kind of constant cycle of events day in, day out, which draws the public, the citizen, you call it, in into this kind, and you become fixated on one set of stories in every day or one item, and this becomes a talking point.
And he says to be in the know in your circle is very important.
Like, you know, that's part of your prestige and your kind of identity and so on.
And he said, this is all misleading us, leading us into, you know, because we never actually understand anything properly.
We don't have any sense of continuity because next day we're on to something else.
And our memory, he says that in effect, it's actually having a strange effect on our memory.
It creates a kind of an amnesia about what's really happening in the world so that we can only talk about today's events and we're highly opinionated.
And of course, now you could add to that that each that news is accompanied by a kind of a moral imperative.
You know, it's not alone that you have to know what happened, but you have to have a certain correct position on what's happened and share that.
And if you don't, you can be driven out of your circle very quickly.
Now, here's the point.
It struck me, Jan, and this may exonerate myself and yourself somewhat.
And not that I'm necessarily looking for that, but it did strike me.
And maybe you will say, absolutely not, John.
That doesn't work for me.
But here's the theory I have.
Because he's talking obviously about reporting, about news, news cycles.
Now, it seemed to me, I was only very, for very brief periods, was I an actual reporter doing that kind of right.
And I don't know about it.
I don't think you were ever really barely.
Barely.
Yeah.
So, you see, I think that actually, as a counter to what Elul is saying, the introduction or intrusion of what you would call commentaries of meaning into that cycle would actually have created a kind of a break on that process, you know, and stuffs people up and makes them think about things in context into in broader frames.
So I would now claim for myself and yourself, if you want, that we were actually seeking to all our lives unwittingly to combat that tendency, which we intuitively picked up.
What do you think?
Well, I'd say I like to let myself partially off the hook because I was able to, and you're probably in the same position.
I was blessed in my journalistic career because I saw people around me who were maybe less talented, let's be honest, less talented, having to basically do what they were told in order to get on, to obey orders.
And I would never undertake a commission where I didn't agree with the premise that it went against my gut instinct that this was wrong.
And I could do that.
I had the luxury of being able to do that because I was such a good writer that I could say no.
And I knew that they'd give me something else because how could they not?
I'm not sure whether other people have that luxury, which is why you get it's often the sort of the less talented, less, and consequently less principled people who rise to the top because that's what ultimately the people who control every industry are looking for.
They want.
Oh, yeah.
And isn't it the case also that the reporters, the newsroom staff, the editors in the newsroom, they all hated colonists.
They hated colonists, you know, having opinions about things.
Well, there was when I was I spent most of my career on the telegraph, my mainstream media career, and there was always a massive divide between the newsroom, which was the kind of the NCO class basically, and the commentary section, which was the officer class.
And the officer class had all been to Oxbridge, yada yada yada.
And as your sort of training ground, you were sent into the into the newsroom to be insulted by these grizzled editors who despised you.
They wanted to make a man of you.
And then once you'd done your time in the trenches, you were kicked upstairs back to the...
That's right.
But then something very interesting happened, James.
And this is maybe this, this is certainly my impression.
Is it yours?
That actually, at some point, some indeterminate point in the not too distant past, the tendency to choose the senior officers from among those kind of the commentariat, let's say, that ceased.
And suddenly you got all of the top brass were being sucked up from the lower levels, from the NCO layer.
And they had a total contempt for analysis, for meaning, for delving deeply into a subject.
They didn't care less.
Where's the facts, man?
Where's the facts?
And I think that actually is that tendency is actually replicated right across the board.
You see the same thing in politics.
Look at the idiots that are now running our countries.
Their sole qualification, it seems to me, is their two.
They have two.
One is their stupidity and the other is their obedience.
So that's all they are required to have.
Stupidity and obedience.
Yeah.
I share your sentiment about this.
There's no question that there has been newspapers are definitely not what they were when we were writing for them back in the day.
That's a given.
The standards of writing are sloppier.
They're much more shameless, I think, about pushing the agendas that they're pushing.
But I've just been reading this very interesting book about, it's called Two World Wars and Adolf Hitler, I think, something like that.
And it looks into the origins of the First and Second World Wars.
And it's very clear that in, say, the early 1900s, yeah, the early 1900s, MPs fitted into two basic categories, stupid and evil, if you like.
Most MPs hadn't a clue what was going on at all.
Those are the stupid ones.
And the evil ones were completely in service to the agenda being dictated to them by the elites.
They were going to get rewards for it.
They were probably sympathetic to these causes anyway.
What I'm saying is I think it's a mistake to look on the past as a golden age when journalists practiced journalism and politicians had bottom and integrity and etc.
That's just our short memories and bad history.
Well, it was better though, James.
I do think.
I mean, I don't disagree with your principal point, but in general, it was better.
I mean, it is appalling now.
It's beyond, it's off the scale now, isn't it?
I mean, there is no more.
But there are no page captions.
Everything, the sub-editing, the headlines, everything is poorer.
Yes.
And also the ethical.
I mean, when I was there, when I was in journalism, I didn't particularly like the NUJ, but I was a member occasionally when things were going on.
And they had this code of conduct, which by and large was decent enough in the sense that there were certain things you had to do and not to do.
I mean, if you were writing a story, you had to get both sides.
And if you were writing something critical about somebody, you had to ring them up and inform them that this article was going in and did they have any comment and so on.
All that stuff is out the window now, all principle.
I mean, I think essentially actually what happened to the media in this context is the influence of Twitter from about whatever it was, 15 years ago.
Basically, all these guys immediately went on Twitter and they started adopting the kind of jungle ethics of Twitter at that time and indeed probably still.
And as a result of that, the whole thing, and the world then started to imitate that in every way.
Political life became like valueless and so on.
You see, I know that you cannot say that politicians and journalists were ever saints.
They weren't.
But they did have some standards and ethics to work by in the past and they're all gone now.
Yeah, except here's the thing.
You and I, I mean, I would be right, wouldn't I, in saying that you and I pretty much woke up at the same time.
That COVID was our before that, we were, to all intents and purposes, what you might call a normie.
We sort of believed more or less in the system.
Well, I would, I mean, not wanting to lose your train of thought, because, you know, I just want to issue a caveat there if you want, I'll expand on it.
But it would be to say that one of the things I've that, even though that's essentially true, nevertheless, one of the things I've been discovering or watching in the last two years is that a lot of the things that I was on top of as a columnist have become live in this situation.
Like I was talking an awful lot about family and gender and feminism.
A lot of my from the mid-90s on, I was doing a lot about the idea of nationhood, you know, and the threat to nationhood and the disparagement of national heroes and all that.
And I was writing an awful lot about God and the concept of religion in society and all those things.
So all of those are totally now live in this situation.
Are you writing critically about feminism?
No, I was writing, yeah, I was writing critically in relation to things like feminism and family law and all that and the treatment of men in society, particularly fathers in society and family law courts.
Male suicide, which was really off the charts way back in the 90s.
And then nationhood.
I mean, I was coming from the country in Ireland, from the West, where there was an intensely nationalistic feeling, particularly around the time of Bloody Sunday and all that stuff.
And also 1966, which was the 50th anniversary of the Easter writing.
And then when I went to Dublin, I found that people were disparaging these heroes and disparaging these events.
And I was thinking, what's all that about?
So I used to write regularly about these things.
And then I picked up the theme of religion and not so much spirituality.
I don't like that term much because it reminds me, I always think of incense and crystals and things like that when I hear spirituality be mentioned.
But I know it has a legitimate meaning in this context.
But I kind of always prefer the term religion to describe it all, as opposed to, you know, that it's a kind of an essence of the human being.
So I used to write an awful lot about that.
So, you know, whereas I was completely blind to all the stuff that other people, you know, conspiracy theorists as they're called, like 9-11, I hadn't a clue.
I was moved profoundly by what I thought had happened in 9-11.
Yeah.
Look, we glimpsed bits, but we didn't see the big picture.
That's right.
Because it's very, very hard.
I mean, everyone watching and listening to this will have gone through a similar process.
And it's really traumatizing because you have to say goodbye to your entire past life, really.
And most of your old friends.
And all the things that you mean, all those facts I learned.
Like, who was the first man on the moon?
Neil Armstrong.
He never went.
I mean, it's everywhere.
I'm even beginning to think that I haven't looked into this one yet.
Woodstock.
Woodstock was definitely not as sold.
I think the thing might have been faked to a degree.
I mean, obviously, something happened in Woodstock, but I don't.
Well, yeah, I mean, it does appear that all of that kind of rock and roll and all that, that was some form of psyop, you know, that it was engineered at least.
And the Beatles and all that.
I don't doubt that.
Although I sometimes quarrel with some of the details or ask questions about how that could possibly have been.
But I in general think that the entire 60s narrative was constructed for us with the aim of bringing down Western civilization through the resulting kind of what you would call whatever degeneracy and so on that would have worked its way into the culture and so on.
And that people's kind of that those kind of rigid principles would be dissolved that had motivated humanity in the West up to that point, you know, were dissolved and whatever you're having yourself, you know, and you know, do what you please, shall be the whole of the law, all that kind of stuff.
And yeah, I agree.
And I think therefore Woodstock, yeah, I mean, that was probably the jewel in the crown of their pretense, you know, to some extent.
You know, it's, yeah.
The people behind this are so utterly cynical.
Somebody pointed out to me the other day, one of the commenters on my Telegram channel, they printed the lyrics of When I'm 64.
When I'm 64 was a song that everyone hated.
It's just like one of the Beatles wrote some, or rather, whoever theor theodora dorno or whatever wrote the most terrible tracks for them but that was really the worst it was everyone thinks well it's just me i just just not relating to paul at his bit at his most whimsical and it it's not that that song was deliberately written to make the young hate old people and they weren't even that old i mean
64 i'm almost 64 and just every detail of that song like the name of the grandchildren vera chuck and dave horrible horrible names they chose because that song drips with contempt for the people who are going to consume that song for old people for the young people who are going to be be brainwashed into hating the old people because of this crap song it it's it's diabolical genius at work here would you not say
he that's i'd never heard that one before james but now that you mention it i mean you're quite right i mean that's the last kind of song that you would have felt that anybody would write for a for a pop audience you know what i mean it's it's like absolutely naff and i thought it was a joke maybe of dylan lennon nennon's or something but you're quite right
but this is the thing you know but you know i often think james not just are they very cynical the people who are doing all this but they're they're actually annoyingly brilliant in many respects and they are thank you for saying that they are brilliant this this nonsense that we hear from some people like like i refuse to believe that that that there could be a conspiracy on this scale because nobody would be capable of of of engineering things
to that level of detail and i'm thinking well
um see monumentum requere sicum spigot that you just like by their works you shall know them they're really good at this stuff i was actually only saying this morning to a friend of mine you know when you look at the various elements of all of this the way they use the woke thing the way they kind of do the climate thing the way that they kind of have all of these things going at the same time and interlocking and working like a clock off each other you know tick tick tick tick tick tick and everything is working simultaneously and and
it all comes out exactly as they must have planned it like we're all driven demented and we're at each other's throats and we're being you know demonized and the most bizarre things are happening like that couldn't have happened 30 years ago you know because we had arrived at such a we thought advanced stage of you know evolution and development as a species that we were so sophisticated in our thinking we believed in free speech and we understood that free speech was at the core of democracy and
so on and the idea that we could end up in a time like this where you know like a comedy writer is arrested at the airport and dragged off to a cell and held and interrogated to the point of having a seizure of some kind you know like you would say that's really bad novel you know come on that's that's that's so ball well or wellian because they think in terms of half centuries even um
certainly decades but really they think far far ahead that they plan these they plan everything often a hundred years ahead or more um yes james yes now here's the thing imagine this is a really interesting task for a great novelist to write a book to imagine when you say they to write a book a book about them a book about them about them them
about they and their daily grind and what they talk about to each other and what they spend their time doing.
Do they do this on the phone?
Do they meet in bars or cafes?
Do they meet in each other's houses?
What are they talking about?
Do they have an agenda?
You know, today we're going to discuss the year 2067 and what we're going to do with all the bodies of the people we've killed.
I haven't seen Eyes Wide Shut.
I've only seen the final scene on Twitter just now.
But I imagine that that shows part of their lives.
I think that they live very compartmentalized lives in the sense that they have different, they have fractured personalities because most of these families have been, the children have been traumatized and their personalities are fractured because they breed for psychopathy.
They train for psychopathy and offspring that don't fulfill the psychopathic requirements are either bumped off or sent off to the funny farm or whatever, or die of drugs, overdoses or car accidents.
And I think that it's just my guess, but it's a reasonable inference that part of their lives is spent enjoying lovely, they like the Greek island of Hydra, for example.
They like, they like kind of ritzy, exclusive, they like Costa Rica, they like, they like hideaways.
They probably like, like, they like art.
They like, they like sort of, that's their interface, I think, with, with, with the ordinary cattle class, i.e.
us.
They, they, they sort of, they embrace high culture to show that they're not completely, they're not completely uncivilized.
Yes, that their antipathy to the most of the human race is, is, is, is, is on quite an elevated level.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's a benign, in a certain sense, disposition in the long, to the long-term benefit of the world and it's, and whatever, whoever will remain on it.
But I mean, that's, these are things I, I often think about, James, you know, and, and, and not idly either, you know, like what kind of men or women are these?
And are they, are they people with, with natural human feelings as well as these, this, this terrible dark sides that they have?
No.
I think not.
I think, I think they have a sort of simulacrum of human feelings that if, if, if you and I were to go for a weekend with them, it would be absolutely bloody amazing.
We'd have a great time.
They'd be really charming.
The conversation would be pitched at a really interesting level because they've been exposed to so much.
They've, they've had, they've been able to engage with all, with everything because that's what money can buy.
They're not stupid, these people.
And they're very, very good at, well, charm.
Charm is a quality of the devil, isn't it?
Charm is a satanic quality.
Yes.
It's about deception.
I think that's, that's the, the underlying.
characteristic of charm I I don't know James i if I was uh w staying for the weekend uh I'd be inclined to push the bed up against the door wouldn't you I'm assuming that they hadn't invited us to kill us.
But you mean they might try?
I mean, I don't know what.
But you see, again, I think they have compartmentalized lives.
You wouldn't get invited, for example, on one of the satanic high days.
You wouldn't get invited on whatever they call Halloween.
It's got some or Hallows Eve is it.
You wouldn't get invited at midsummer because they're busy sacrificing children.
But James, do you think that they invite journalists along?
You know, like bands invite journalists to spend, hang out with them for a couple of days or when they're out in the Riviera or whatever, come and you just sit, hang out and talk to us and we write a piece about that.
Would they invite us along, do you think, for that?
You know, what would we call them?
What would we call them?
I call them the combine, but that's kind of an anodyne and somewhat bland phrase.
You know, you call them the predator class, okay, which is better, I think, in this context.
So we would, it would be, imagine the article, my weekend with the predator class.
It would be beneficial to both sides because they would be, we'd get a great piece out of it.
And they would be engaging in the revelation of the method, which is comically, as you know, part of their job.
These people are obliged to tell us what they're doing.
And they kind of like it.
It's part of the game.
By the way, we've got to talk about that essay you write in your book, which I've been enjoying very much.
On I like the one about the COVID nurses, the dancing nurses.
And the whole thing was a ritual.
We'll talk about that later on.
I'm quite enjoying this, this, this weekend with, with the, but you and I have both had experiences where we've been out with mega rich people, some of whom may even have been members of the, the cabal or the, what is it called?
The Brotherhood?
There's a name they call themselves.
I can't remember what it is.
It's something like the Brotherhood.
I don't know.
I didn't know the Illuminati.
No, it's not the Illuminati.
I think they don't call themselves the Illuminati, although that is essentially what they are.
But there's that wonderful feeling, isn't there, when you're with very rich people, very, very rich people.
And you're trying to, oddly enough, make them feel comfortable, making you feel comfortable.
So you don't want to be seen to be too impressed by things.
Because then they'll...
so you put on this false air yeah yeah i will have some chateau de chem with my yeah yeah sure that would that would do yeah Yeah, whatever.
Yeah, and you pretend to be relaxed because rich people I find are always relaxed.
And so you have to kind of pretend that you're chilling all the time when in fact you're frantic in some ways that you're talking about.
I'm thinking very stupid about how to be more relaxed.
And also how to be on the top of your game conversationally and stuff and every detail of the scenario you're trapped in.
And there's that awful moment that sometimes happens, and maybe more often than we'd like when you say something utterly stupid, right?
And they all turn and look at you.
Do you know that one?
But yes, I do, but you think about it, we shouldn't beat ourselves up about those moments.
Why the hell should we be under any onus to have to police ourselves?
I'll tell you the funniest one that happened to me, James, was once when I was on the plane with you two, going from Dublin to, I think it was Glasgow.
And, you know, I was, you know, as you do, I was sitting with the band talking to Mono and Edge and Adam.
Larry never spoke to me, really.
But we were having an interesting conversation, you know, and then the plane would land it, and all just full of roadies and everything.
And they all got out the back door.
But I was still talking to them, and everybody was taking their luggage down and disappearing.
Next thing there was just me and the former band members left in the plane.
So I got my stuff out, you know, and I got it all ready to go.
And the boys all got this.
And then, just as I was walking down to the door, they were ahead of me.
I glanced out one of the windows, and there was about 500 photographers standing just in front of the steps that I was about to walk onto with John Paul, George, and Ringo and Bert.
So I had to run out the back door frantically.
But that's the kind of thing that you do when you're hanging out with those kind of guys because you forget, because they try so hard to be normal that they persuade you that you're the same as them.
But of course, you never are.
No, and the stuff going on underneath that, that this person I mentioned, actually, the one that who sent the When I'm 64 lyrics, she quite often posts the lyrics of songs.
And ranging from Depeche Mode to Early Genesis, there's a Genesis song called Many Too Many.
And it's quite early on in their career.
And a lot of these lyrics are clearly SOS messages.
Contained in the songs is the story of the terrible things they've had to do to get where they are.
I think if you look at the Radiohead Just video as well, that's been analyzed and people have found the basically any band which gets beyond a certain level has made the pact, been given their marching orders, and it's horribly constrained.
You wouldn't want to be these people in a million years.
This is really interesting.
You know, it's very interesting when you hear a version of the lyrics of a song that just is so amazing.
This happened to me.
What was that most famous Queen song?
What's it called?
Bohemian Rhapsody.
Bohemian Rhapsody, yeah.
Which is all about that.
It's all about, it's, you know, Mama, I killed a man, put a gun against his head, pulled the trigger, now he's dead.
That's about initiating another man in homosexuality.
That's what it is.
And I was talking to a guy in America who's done an amazing analysis of it.
And your jaw will just drop.
I'll send it on to you.
I have it somewhere.
It's absolutely extraordinary that this is actually a confession by Freddie Mercury of his absolute dismay at ending up in this condition and wishing it weren't so and asking for forgiveness for you know Effect, you know, influencing other young men and so on.
It's an amazing analysis.
And every single word of the song begins to make a new sense because actually the song doesn't make any sense if you just listen to it for the words as random lines.
It doesn't tie together at all.
When you hear it like this, you say, oh my God, that's it.
I have to say, when we were listening to it at my all boys public school, we all had Queen and Knight at the opera.
It was great.
And we mostly weren't buggering each other.
So we were actually quite innocent.
We just thought it was just like, yeah, the crazy stuff that rock singers sing about.
And it was operatic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, but it's not.
And it may well be very much hooked into what you're saying there as well, James, that, you know, Freddie had to go through some kind of test in order to come out to be the star he became.
Sure, he did.
Sure, he did.
They all do.
Do you know about Stairway to Heaven?
Vaguely, yes.
I know it's supposed to be a satanic.
I think the lady is someone who is considered to be, well, one of the chief baddies.
I don't even know if I dare say her name.
It's a bit like saying Voldemort.
I'm not going to say her name.
I'm not going to say her name because it's actually really quite scary.
But this woman has based in Scotland has very, very dark powers.
When you start looking into this, it does get quite chilling.
But I was also thinking about Hotel California, which is so obviously satanic.
And yet, equally, one of the great songs.
I mean, you can't listen to Hotel California, the slow-build intro and everything.
I mean, you can actually make an argument that that is the greatest guitar soul ever.
Yeah.
It is.
It's a spectacular song.
And they fired the guy who wrote it, I forget his name.
They fired him from the band not long afterwards.
He was looking for more money.
I forget his name.
They were going on tour again, and the old guys were playing themselves twice as much as the new guys.
And he was one of the new guys.
And he said, well, no, I'm in the band and I write songs and I've written your best song and your most famous song.
So, you know, and then they fired him.
But so much of the songs of these great songs is in the production, isn't it?
And the arrangement and everything, everything about it.
That song was arranged to be one of the greatest pop songs ever.
And I think all songs, James, are about tone and sound and voice.
I mean, you think of any song you love, it has an idiosyncratic voice that, you know, you can imitate sort of inferior singers can imitate it, but what you're actually hearing is the original in your head while it's been murdered in front of you.
You know, like the voices of these singers, the distinctive voices, Lennon, like, for example, had that particular, he wasn't just a singer.
He had a voice that was John Lennon, that was his personality.
You know, and that's not a very common thing.
You know, it's not about technical skill.
It's not about, you know, having a melodic voice or anything like that.
It's a personality thing.
And that's what a lot of the great pop songs, the great hits, you know, I can't, I mean, you never can think of examples when you're saying something like this.
But, you know, virtually any song you want to think about that is really stand out.
You think, oh, it's that song.
If I, if even if a reasonably good singer sang it, it wouldn't sound the same.
You wouldn't think you wouldn't listen to it twice.
This is why I think that a sort of it's not misplaced to talk about the supernatural element in this.
You know, that one of the singers from Boyzone, I think it was, has talked about this, how the industry is so into the occult that they they do kind of chanting to the dark forces for records to do well and stuff.
I think there is an evil alchemy that takes place on the really great Stairway to Heaven and Hotel California would be two examples of this.
That there is the songs are fantastically attractive, and yet at the same time, there's something uneasy about them.
Yes, it makes you feel that there's something slightly off about them and it puts you in an odd state.
It's a bit like, it's a bit like cocaine, actually, where the drug that leaves you longing for more, but more of what you're not quite sure.
It doesn't actually, it never quite delivers, never gets you there.
It just wants you wanting more of it.
Okay.
Okay.
Now, I want to just mention a name now that might get us into an argument with each other here.
But I have a particular thing about this name.
And don't jump to any conclusions now.
Bob Dylan.
Now, I just want to say this first.
There's that 16 minutes clip that keeps going around where Dylan talks about, again, and it resonates with them.
Yes.
But in the very same interview, this is the part they never attach to the other.
He says, God is the judge.
Only four minutes, five minutes before, he says, God is the judge.
He's talking about the media and the way they go after him for a second.
He says, God is the judge.
Now, it seems to me that that commander thing, the very beginning of that, actually, he talks, he says something very interesting.
They show up images of him standing by the wailing wall up against the wall.
And he's talking about this.
And he describes that.
He says that he deliberately did that in order to throw people off the scent of this idea of, you know, prophet of the generation, of his generation type of thing, which he hated.
And he went to the wailing wall, he says, particularly to have people accuse him of being a Zionist, because he thought at least that will actually have the benefit of getting rid of the other narrative, right?
So he does play these games.
And if you read his book, which is called, I can't remember now, he wrote one volume of an autobiography, which was supposed to be two, and the second never came.
Chronicles, Chronicles 1, it was called.
And he wrote about this, that he never wanted to be the spokesman for his generation.
He never wanted to be.
Now, that's the first evidence I would use.
The second evidence was that he did three albums in the late 70s, early 80s, which were Christian albums.
And he seems to continue to this day to be a Christian.
Yet this clip keeps showing up.
And people, they don't, they refuse to take, they always take it out of context.
I think it was either A, a slip of the tongue, he was talking about God again, or else it was that he was winding people up, as he often does.
What do you think?
I don't think that the two things are inconsistent.
It would be perfectly, I'm not saying you're right, but it would be a perfectly reasonable argument to say that Bob Dylan was outlining the nature of the contract that all pop musicians, rock musicians have to sign.
And that this had been kind of these are the contractual obligations that he had to fulfill.
But it's entirely possible that he genuinely has decided to break that contract or to try to, a bit like Johnny Cash did in his last.
Because you look at all Johnny Cash's later albums, his American recording stuff, particularly the very last ones.
Sooner or later he's going to cut you down.
All these songs about the devil and about God and stuff.
Johnny Cash was clearly repenting for his earlier career and trying to make his peace with God and saying, look, please, God, can you get me out of this deal that I signed?
And I don't know.
I've been talking to people on podcasts about this, whether presumably always, the option is open to you to ask God's help, ask for Jesus' help at the end, and you can kind of undo all the damage that you've, or at least pay for doing the damage.
Yes, it's interesting.
You see, the issue that Dylan was addressing in that, when he talked about the commander of the world thing was the way that songs came to him, songs that he'd written earlier in his life, you know, in the mid-60s, I think, which he says that they just popped out.
They just basically appeared.
Yes.
I mean, they were satanically inspired, basically.
Okay, I come back to that point.
That's possible.
But then that may have implied some kind of Faustian pact or whatever.
But I think at the same time, there's another possible explanation.
You know, like the unconscious, whatever that is in humanity, is actually a source of enormous riches for creative people if they can tap into it.
You know, there's a great book that came out with 50 years ago, a woman called Dorothea Brand, an American writer, and it was called Becoming a Writer, I think, something like that, becoming a writer.
And what she describes is a process, how the writer, creative writer, should, in order to train the unconscious almost like an animal, to deliver the things that it has, that you want as a writer.
And what she decides is that she says you should always get up first thing in the morning when you wake up when you're still in the liminal state and you're still in the dream state and go have a place to work that you work, a desk, and go straight there.
Don't have coffee, don't stop at all, just go and sit there.
And you start this process off, and she says, by simply going there in the morning, and you will not write anything for the first 10 days, 100 days, whatever.
But if you keep doing that, she says, with the intention of instructing your unconscious to deliver, it will eventually do so.
So in a sense, that could also be what Dylan is talking about, those kind of processes, because there are other ways of doing that as well.
I mean, there's a guy called Joseph Murphy, an Irish psychiatrist, psychologist there from the 50s, who talks about quite a few of his videos online.
And he talks, and he's an extraordinarily religious man.
And he talks about actually that it is possible to train your unconscious to do things for you.
And never mind, just deliver things to you, but actually to change reality in accordance with your needs.
Because he says the world is abundant and there is no reason for you to be poor or to be lacking anything if you simply can regulate your unconscious in the correct way.
So in other words, there is more, yeah, I suppose there are more things in heaven and earth, blah, blah.
I think that Dylan, yeah, it is plausible.
I agree.
It is plausible that he actually at some point made a deal and then regretted it, and that maybe those Christian albums were an attempt to purge that deal.
Obviously, one can never know because it all happens in secret.
But I don't think anyone gets to be at Dylan's level without signing the pact.
I think that's just the deal.
I mean, it's much more obvious today when you look at a Doja Cat video or whatever.
It's pure demonic.
I mean, there were probably actual demons in those videos.
They don't make any pretense that their concerts and their videos aren't occult rituals.
It was much more innocent when Dylan was playing those cafes and those dives in New York and stuff.
I was thinking earlier on, we're talking about the Beatles.
And you could see that when we're talking about how they plan things in 50 years or 100 years, that in order to get the public where they are now, we had to have several revolutions from the 60s onwards, didn't we?
We had to sort of create this world where there was this massive division, ideological cultural division between parents and children.
And we had to invent the concept of the teenager.
We had to introduce sex and drugs.
And you look at that transition from love, love me, do innocence to the Maharishi and Lucy in the sky with diamonds.
Oh, yeah, it was something my daughter wrote on a picture.
Yeah, right.
All this stuff.
So they had to accelerate us through this process where we get to where we are now, where your kids are being indoctrinated with Satanism whenever they go to a Taylor Swift concert or whatever.
Yes, yes.
Just one final word on the Dylan thing.
And I watch him a lot.
I mean, I love certain aspects of his music.
Some of his songs are astonishingly great.
And I just love the band that he has now and all that.
So I watch a lot on YouTube, which is an amazing thing to watch the guy singing and playing.
And it's an amazing thing.
But I just say this: that I've noticed about him that he, at every opportunity that seems to be not in any way deliberate or calculating, he refers to God all the time.
Like, for example, the director of, and I forget his name, of the movie A Complete Unknown, was describing how he had shown the strip to Dylan and asked him for his, he made some comments about it and even suggested a couple of additional scenes.
But when they met for the last time for Dylan to sign off on the project, he signed it, Bob Dylan, go with God.
And that tells me that whatever happened back then is in his mind purged.
It is not any longer, if it did happen, it is no longer affecting his life.
This is where you and I can lightly disagree, which is that I'm not saying that I'm the ultimate arbiter of authority on the conspiracy realm.
I always take all my positions as until proved otherwise, basically.
So I don't set myself up as a guru.
But I find myself increasingly drawn to the position that anyone who achieves a certain level of fame, definitely in the music industry, definitely in the movie industry, is compromised to a degree.
And the same in politics.
I mean, I know you took issue with my take on Trump.
You don't get to be US president and be a goodie.
Even the ones we thought were goodies, or I thought were goodies, like good old Ronnie Reagan, wise cracking Ronnie Reagan.
He was just, that was his assigned role.
You are going to be the wise cracking president who, in the guise of being a kind of relaxed, sort of small government person, introduces all these horrors or allows on your watch to Iran contra.
Okay, what about this?
What about the Kennedys?
Given that, in a certain sense, the narrative that we, in terms of the United States, America, it sort of started, the dark narrative that we're dealing with now, this episode of it, this splicker, seems to have started with the assassination of Kennedy.
That was the first real conspiracy theory of the modern era.
And then you see, now I had a thought about this.
Because I can be extremely naive, James.
You may have noticed.
But I do think, you know, I mean, as Irish people, we adore the Kennedys.
We adore particularly Jack and Bobby.
Bobby was mine because I was younger.
Not the dad.
Not Joe Kennedy.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, that's true.
I'm not sure how we factored him out or how we managed that, but we did.
But you see, but here's the thing.
When you then look at some of the other stuff, there's a dark side to, or appears to be, and it only occurred to me this morning as a question.
How much of the actual stuff about the kind of Don Kwanism of the Kennedys and the very dark sides that are attributed to that was actually a smear created by the CIA.
Is that a possibility?
I don't know.
Or were they, you know, I suppose you could say excessively human?
You know, they were powerful, they had opportunities, and they took them.
Who knows?
I don't know.
What do you think of the Kennedys?
Are they good guys or bad guys?
Well, I have to break the news to you that Kennedy is one of the 12 satanic bloodlines identified by Fritz Springmeier.
Kennedy, Collins, Van Dyne, DuPont, Rockefeller, etc.
Lee.
So Kennedy would have had all the bloodline families have a sort of simple, you know, you were asking earlier, what's it like to be with these people?
Where do they, you know, what do they do for fun?
I think that on that level, you are probably going to be exposed at a very early age to stuff that would absolutely do your head in.
Do people exposed to that system, do they occasionally malfunction?
Could somebody from that background yet turn out to be the kind of the saviour of the world as Kennedy tried to be?
Possibly.
I'm not ruling it out.
There's lots and lots and lots about the Kennedy thing that makes no sense to me.
I mean, for example, he had this reputation as a ladies man.
Well, he was screamingly gay, the evidence suggests.
So these women he was having affairs with were just basically beards.
So he was living a massive lie.
I just don't know.
I mean, it seems to me from what I can piece together with the various conspiracy theories surrounding his death that one of the reasons he was offed was because he questioned the influence of Israel.
And so the Israelis had something to do with it, along with the mafia and the CIA and the deep state and so on.
So it sounds like he went down fighting for our cause, but you just kind of don't know, do you?
I mean, no, and if now, here's a question for you, James.
If you accept the possibility that Kennedy may have been inclined to become a good guy, to go against this whole thing, is the same thing not possible with Trump?
Well, I suppose in terms of no, I don't think it is.
Because I'll tell you why.
The iconography and imagery that he associates himself with is essentially dark occult.
He's an Apollo worshiper.
He's got all these occultic symbols on his Trump tower and stuff.
He's the fake assassination attempt, and it was a, well, I think there were several, but the one in Butler, Pennsylvania, where he goes down and then magically, when he recovers from the pile of security guards who mysteriously allow him free, even though it's a live fire zone, he could be shot at any moment.
And he comes up with this streak of blood on his face.
I don't think somebody who engages in that level of fakery, willingly, obviously, obviously a complicit, is our guy.
My other big tell for Trump, I mean, this has been the big tell for a lot of people that he's a Roman, is Operation Warp Speed, which I know now tactically he's sort of slightly retreating from saying, well, is there something I should know about the COVID vaccines that I didn't know at the time when I pushed them?
Yes.
I saw that the other day.
That's all part of the script.
That struck me, James.
That's what I was coming to, actually.
I was going to say to you, was that, isn't that kind of like, you know, you've got this massive juggernaut knot out on the on the turmac outside your house, you know, and you can't turn it.
So you're going to have to start.
Well, one day you're going to have to start.
He's going to take a 35-point turn to get around.
So this is the first maneuver.
Is it not to get himself out of this stuff?
So they say that Trump plays, what is it, 5D chess?
I say the people who want to believe that Trump is a good thing, despite the evidence, are playing sort of 8D chess.
Yeah.
No, the reason that the reason that you've got to understand this.
The reason that Trump allowed the killing of X million American people or the maiming thereof with these experimental drugs procedures that they didn't have to take, the reason he had to kill those people is because he was outwitting so-and-so.
I hear these.
I don't really, I'm not persuaded by them.
Yeah, the yarn is that he was he was informed or he learned that the plan was that the The predator, the combine, the predator club.
Their plan was to lock the world down for 10 years.
And that the only way he had of averting this was to go ahead with some kind of program for vaccines.
And that was why he initiated Warp Speed.
Now, that's maybe slightly plausible up to a certain point, but it ceases to be plausible to me anyway when he keeps going on about his beautiful vaccines like four years later.
And they've killed like millions of people.
Ed Dowd says it's somewhere between 7 and 15 million worldwide that have died as a result of these vaccines.
And that seems to be implicit in what he's now raising, the hair he's raised now in terms of, well, can Pfizer show me the facts that they, you know, how come they're not, they're telling me stuff and they're not telling anybody else, you know?
What was the top figure?
15.
Ed Dowd says the worldwide death toll is somewhere between 7 million and 15 million.
That is quite a lot.
Not up there with their best record, which is for the first and second world wars, but heading in that direction.
Yes.
It is.
It's a lot.
And they're not finished yet, obviously.
Because, I mean, these deaths are in a certain sense programmed into the vaccine, which make over years and years.
I mean, they're still happening.
In fact, they're escalating now.
And as far as like in Ireland, they were kind of steadily around 16, 17% excess deaths for the last four or five years.
But they're now something like 30%, according to a coroner's report.
That is a guy called Patrick E. Walsh has been investigating this very, very well here.
And that's the latest now.
So that's in the last year.
So far from it kind of tailing off, it's actually escalating.
The other thing that makes me very suspicious about Trump is his relations with Israel, but also his relations with Palantir and organizations like that.
That he seems to be his job is to bring in the next stage of the technocratic revolution, the transhumanist agenda and so on.
I can't quibble with that because, you know, that first day in the White House, like literally the first day of his presidency, he had those guys, Sam Offman and all those guys, Palantir guys, and in talking about not just AI, but mRNA, cures, etc., so-called.
And of course, Peter Thiel is a very dark force in the world.
And his closeness, his proximity to Vance and to the third administration is profoundly worrying.
He claims to be a Christian, doesn't he?
He claims to be a Christian, but you know the anagram of his name.
Go on, tell me.
Peter Thiel.
Oh, Hitler.
Sorry, Hitler.
No.
No.
The reptile.
Oh, the reptile.
Sorry.
The reptile.
It is a weird name when you think about it.
It's not a normal name, is it?
No, it isn't.
And when you look him up, there's very little information about him as a young man or as his childhood or anything of that.
So, you know, one of these days, James, he might kind of just go like that, you know, and pull off the old skull cap.
Yeah, well, where are you on that?
I mean, is that I don't.
Well, I find it, I'll tell you what I find about feeling about all that, James, is this.
And I don't go much further than this, that as a metaphor, it clicks in to everything.
That when you actually look at the demeanor of politicians now and you say, why have these people changed so much?
Why do they now hate their own peoples?
Why are they so contemptuous?
And then you think, well, I'm not saying this is true, but if they had turned into lizards, you would say, ah, well, okay, that explains it.
You know, that as a metaphor, it corresponds to the evidence we can see.
Whether or not it's literally the case is another question.
Well, you see, just taking a step back, you know, you were sort of quizzing me on Dylan and quizzing me on my take on Trump.
And I think that sometimes you can get too bogged down in the weeds.
I mean, you've described how when listening to conspiracy theories about the Beatles, you found some details irritating because you're not buying them.
And of course, that is how they, the people who run the world, want it.
They want you sort of getting cross about almost arguing against conspiracy theories on logical grounds.
And I look at it the other way.
I always go for the big picture, pattern recognition.
So I don't necessarily need to know much about Bob Dylan to know the generality of how they, the people who run the world, arrange things.
So we know that the music industry, popular music, even from the early days, I mean, jazz was designed to get black people hooked on drugs out of regular jobs and to sort of create this sort of sexual and racial tension between black people and white people, et cetera, et cetera.
Gangster Rat was invented to put more black people in prison.
Heavy metal was designed to turn young boys into many Satanists.
The Beatles was invented to divide generations and to get people into drugs and etc.
It's all about problem reaction and solution.
So you don't need to examine Trump too closely to see what his function would be in the matrix or whatever you want to call it.
So you've got Joe Biden, an incontinent child-stroking puppet, probably played by several people in masks.
His job is actually not dissimilar to the one that Keir Starmer is performing now in England, which is to be so bad, so embarrassingly, lamentably, demonstrably bad, that even his former fans think he's the most shit leader ever, and they're just embarrassed by him.
So then comes the saviour, the Donald, the Farage, and their job is to sweep up.
And people are going to be so grateful that somebody has taken over after this four years of complete shite.
They won't mind that there's only digital IDs and stuff.
I get it.
I get it, James, but it's awfully tiring, isn't it?
It just goes round and round.
And so here's my question.
I mean, do you think there's any into this?
I mean, is it possible, do you think?
This is an impossible question, maybe, to answer.
Is it possible for human forces to combat this?
Not on their own.
No.
No, I don't.
I mean, I've got quite into my Bible in the last few years.
And it's not just because I think it's a good read, but because I think it's quite a useful instruction manual of how to survive in the world Which is essentially run by the devil by God's permission.
And you get all these.
I mean, I can't.
I can't work out what Revelation means exactly in every detail.
But I do get this impression that what's being played out now is the end game in this supernatural war between good and evil.
And you mentioned the lizard people.
One of the things I like about the Bible is that it seems to provide the grand overarching explanation as to what's happening.
So I think, and this is just my working theory based on reading the Bible and reading, listening to people talking about it in a scholarly way, is that the baddies are the descendants of the Nephilim, the fallen angels.
And God's always had beef with these people because they're rebels and they're not.
And he knew they were the enemy of his creation, which is us, the son of man.
And the war between God and his rebel angels is being played out in the supernatural realm and here on earth.
Okay.
Yeah, that's basically it.
So, here's a question for you, James.
I'm not trying to set any traps.
I'm just kind of trying to explore this because, like, the idea of we are told that God is both all-loving and all-powerful.
Now, how do we resolve this in the present situation whereby, if I can say this as delicately as possible, God seems to be relatively helpless before the evil that now confronts him and us?
I think how it works is that because he's God and he knows everything, he's worked out that, look, I'm going to create these amazing people in my image.
But unless I give them the option of choosing between good and evil, they're essentially going to be, I describe them as NPCs, you know, non-player characters in a video game.
They're just going to be, there's going to be going around the Garden of Eden, like teletub is saying, uh-oh, you know, and with their handbags or just having, just like not really functioning as intellectual, thought, thoughtful, sentient beings.
So God recognizes that the price for giving us this freedom to make our lives meaningful is that he has to accept that we're going to have this horrible scenario played out where terrible things happen, awful, awful, the nature of evil.
But evil is what makes is what gives goodness its meaning.
Goodness would have no meaning without evil.
So it's a sort of necessary, it's the corollary of freedom.
And there's no way around it.
If you can tell me a better way that God could have done it, then I'm not going to be able to do that.
Yeah, yeah, you can't have dark without light or light without dark.
Yeah.
No, I get that.
But you see, I think the one difference between with heaven and yourself, James, is this.
I think that you have come to terms more readily.
I'm not saying this as a criticism at all.
With the existence of evil, that I say, than I have.
I actually remember once, I joined AA years ago, and I started learning prayers because I'd forgotten all the prayers I knew.
And one of the prayers was the acceptance prayer.
I don't remember what it's called, but there was a phrase in it which says, you know, that I came to accept this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it.
That was the line, right?
And I used to stop, I used to say, when I'd say that line to myself, I used to stop and say, ah, geez, it's not that bad.
You know, that kind of sentiment.
It sounded to me like an exaggeration in the context of the world that I had known all my life, right?
Now, I knew there were awful things that happened in history, but that was history.
Or that was another place, a strange place like Germany or Russia or China.
This is Ireland in which bad things might happen, but they were not that level of gravity type of thing.
I don't know if I gave it even that amount of thought.
I never, I actually don't believe I understood evil until the last few years.
I glimpsed the gravity of it and the seriousness of it and the omnipresence of it in the world, everywhere.
And that it infects everything.
It affects everything now in our institutions of our countries, our cultures.
Everything is twisted.
And so, and I still have to really remind myself on a daily basis that that phenomenon exists.
Because, you know, I find myself lapsing into all kinds of rationales for why things are happening.
And I, I, you know, then I, then I think, oh, yeah, demonic stuff.
Yeah, put that in as well.
And that sort of clarifies everything, obviously.
But at the same time, I don't have an insight.
I know, do you have?
Can you describe to me what is the essence of evil?
Like, because it's a word.
Demonic is a word.
But they're not words.
They're not on a metapeg.
Well, we know it when we see it, don't we?
Or when we smell it.
Yeah.
When we feel it.
Yeah.
One of the symptoms that I feel of evil is that it is completely incomprehensible.
I don't understand it.
When I see something that is downright evil, I find myself, you know, perplexed.
How did they do that?
How could they actually go through that?
I mean, a minor example will be like the arrest of Graham Lenahan there the other day.
You know, he's a guy who writes jokes.
He wrote a joke, a slightly funny line on Twitter, the kind of line that anybody might say in a pub at any evening of the week.
And he gets five cops coming with armed cops coming to meet him at the airport and drag him in and interrogate him.
Like, there's an evil there somewhere.
I'm not saying it's any of the five guys.
They may think they were just doing jobs and maybe we're into the banana.
It's evil.
John, it's evil if it's as described, but it's almost even more evil if this is yet another psyop, if the police have been put up to this as part of this.
Because you see, I see the Graham Linehan arrest as part of this Lucy Connolly thing.
What's Farage gone to do?
He's gone to America to talk to our new overlords, basically, on what's, you know, we're supposed to be angry about this stuff.
And that's almost more scary than if idiot policemen have just arrested this guy because I never okay.
I can't rule that out.
And I've heard the thesis and it's our hypothesis and it is, it does have a certain validity.
At the same time, I have seen police doing appalling things almost like off their own bat.
And I mean, that strikes me, Espier.
We have had great opportunities to observe that kind of evil in the last few years.
You know, small fry doing big evil things, whether it's in giving injections or, you know, telling lies on the media or, you know, whatever.
Politicians.
I was thinking, we'll come back to evil with like, I'll have had a cup of tea by the time because I'm starting to flag.
But I was thinking, this isn't irrelevant.
Your piece about the games that we were forced to play, that COVID was like a giant game that we were forced to play.
And there were two categories.
There were the ones who participated, who obeyed the rules, and the ones, what did you call them?
Spoil sports.
What?
The spoil sports.
The spoil sports.
Exactly.
And watching from the perspective of a spoil sport, this game, the games that were being forced on us, and that people were the phrase Hitler's willing executioners comes to mind, even though it's just a cliché.
But you know what I mean?
That lots of people participated in these games with a zeal that was really quite unhealthy.
And I was at the receiving end of it.
I know people who've been beaten up, beaten up for not wearing masks, that kind of thing.
Well, you see, yeah, you see, that's the logic, James, that I was trying to get at.
And I mean, I had a lot of help.
I read a lot of books on the subject of games and play in order to kind of arrive at this thesis, which is that they actually understood that at a deep level, the human being is programmed to play.
That it's like one of the hardwired things in us, the most hardwired.
And in fact, animals play as well.
So it's right across the board.
And even insects, apparently, and fish and all.
And the thing about games, James, is that, well, one of the things about games is that there are rules for all games.
And there's no point in having a, when you hear what the rules of a game are, you know, with your nieces or nephews or whatever, you don't start to argue philosophically against the rules.
You know, you don't argue in terms of the world, the real world.
You say, okay, that's the world.
So I know what the rule is and I will obey it.
That's the understanding.
Unless you want to be to wind them up or something and be a spoilsport.
But so we were presented with these bizarre rituals and games in which everybody was somehow being transported into that mentality.
Because you know, you've seen, you know, your crazy brother-in-law who can't bear to lose a game of table tennis, right?
And starts arguing over everything, you know, or whatever.
And goes ballistic.
So once you get people into that game zone, you're summary in all those instincts and responses.
And that's what you were seeing there.
Those people weren't speaking to you as James Dellingpawl in the real world.
They were speaking to you as this guy in the game who wasn't playing it properly, who is trying to mess it up by being a spoil sport.
You see?
And that's why they attacked you.
They didn't mean it as an attack on you personally.
It was you by because you were not alone.
You see, the cheat is one thing, but the cheat is much more acceptable than the spoil sport because the cheat wants to win the game by any means.
But the spoil sport wants to destroy the game.
And that's what you were trying to do.
And these people instinctively knew that.
And it was an act of defense of the game that they were playing in the same way as if your nephews would start, if they saw you trying to pull a fast one with shuffling the deck or whatever, they would call you out on it and say, and be quite, you know, direct with you about it.
It's the same thing.
So that's, this is the gene.
You see, we talked earlier, the genius of these people.
Like, it is extraordinary.
Evil genius.
It is.
Evil genius.
Evil genius.
And I mean, the thing then, you see, as I say, in that chapter, I describe the dancing nurses, which is what set the entire tone for the satanic, the title of the chapter is Satanic Playground.
That was the meaning of the dancing nurses.
There is no other possible meaning.
That, you know, they wanted to suggest two things.
One, that this is fun.
This is a kind of game.
But it's a very dark game.
Because remember, they weren't just dancing.
They were dancing around with blow-up coffins on their shoulders.
Oh, just like the NHS.
Oh, sorry, the NHS and the Olympics, the London Olympics opening.
Yeah, exactly.
In 2012, the same thing.
That was as well.
Yeah, which was probably built into the whole plan.
Who knows?
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
So, and then when you go through it, like, and look at the kind of bizarre, I mean, people say, well, you know, in Ireland, I don't know if you had this in the UK, but there was a rule about you could have a drink in a pub provided you bought a nine Euro meal.
Right?
Now, that's straight out of a game, a risk of rules.
You're so right.
Yeah.
And so you can imagine somebody looking up the rules and saying, no, it says nine Euros.
You know, you only had 8.50.
So that doesn't count.
You're not allowed to go into the room without your face covering because you only had an 850 meal.
So, you know, you're out of the game now.
You've just actually disqualified yourself.
You know, that kind of thing.
That was the logic.
It's amazing.
But people thought of the rules in two different ways.
While they were in this kind of trance of the game, they were playing the game.
But outside of that, it was deadly serious.
And the nine Euro meal meant something quite different.
It was a serious rule.
And they brought that gravity out of the game into reality with them.
The gravity that they attached to those things as her the rules, they brought out into reality as this is a serious matter.
You think, you know, what's so funny about a nine euro meal?
It's perfectly reasonable of the government to insist that, you know, if you go in, you're going to have to have a meal and it has to be a substantial.
And at the very least, it should be is nine euros.
Of course.
You're right.
Another brilliant touch was getting people.
Do you have an equivalent in Ireland?
Getting people to bang their pots and pans for the NHS.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, myself and my wife were caught with that when literally about the first week, we were walking up the street one evening and they were all out with their pots and pans and banging.
And we were on the far side of the road, like just looking at them in absolute disbelief.
And as we passed, you could hear one of them say to the other, and they didn't even smile.
They didn't even smile.
You spoil sport.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, I don't know how I would have negotiated that horror.
I live somewhere reasonably away from other people.
So I was never exposed to that pressure.
But there was a wonderful lady I had on this podcast.
She's dead now called Liz.
And Liz lived in this road in Barnes in West London.
And Their road was went mad for the pots and pans, and Liz Liz was really into it and thought it was very charming and stuff.
And I was thinking quite a large number of people who were dragooned into this ritual felt much as I do about stuff.
They think that the NHS is a kind of sclerotic, socialistic monolith that should have been scrapped years ago and it's a kill machine and stuff.
But to live in a street where everyone else is doing it, it's again, this is sort of psychological manipulation on a Tavistock Institute level.
Totally.
And as I say, you know, if you can imagine that different zone, this game zone that you go into, and all the gravity of the game accrues to you there.
And then you bring that out into the real world, even though it's not any longer a game, it's actually reality.
And the same pressure is on you.
That's ingenious to do that.
It's an intricate kind of dance, dance, which is like it shows a level of, I suppose, reading, contemplation.
I've never read anywhere that it says those things.
I've never read that thing about the game.
I mean, I've read, I read several books about which talk about one book is a guy called Seacart.
So, okay, here's the terrible thing.
My wife, who normally brings me tea, fails.
And so I had to go and make my own when you disappeared.
So I hope that's it.
It's unacceptable, James.
I hope it doesn't happen too often.
Well, it won't happen again because I made my displeasure perfectly clear.
It's unreasonable.
I mean, I think it constitutes cruel and unusual behaviour.
Well, it's the ambition.
You know.
It says your recording has stopped due to incoming calls.
Is that because you are you on your phone?
I just stopped a call there.
Yeah.
Why did I stop?
I didn't mean to stop the recording.
No, no, no.
I think it doesn't like it doesn't like phone calls and shit like that.
Anyway, we were saying, yeah, so I like the.
Is it going again now?
I think so.
Yeah, so it's been recording.
I'm just hoping it all uploads.
I can never be confident.
Yeah, because it was sending me fantastic messages there for a couple of minutes saying, you know, but I could hear you and you seem to be able to hear me, so I don't know what that was all about.
I really, really like your theory, which I'm sure is on the money about that games thing explains everything.
It does.
It does.
Right.
People were put in the mindset of games players because they knew that they were participating in a fantasy, because they knew that the mask didn't work.
They knew that it was the equivalent of trying to keep out mosquitoes with a tennis net and stuff, with tennis wire.
And yet they carried on doing it.
They didn't.
Why do you think that we didn't go for it?
Oh, I don't know, James.
I think so.
I like games.
I like the rules of games.
I mean, I get very cross when people play the free coffee variant on Monopoly.
Well, okay, well, let me confess.
Let me confess, James, that for about 10 days, I bought into it.
And myself and my wife, we'd been in Rome and there was a little bit of stuff over there because of Bergamo and there was rumors flying around it.
So we arrived back in Dublin Airport and there was a desk at the airport over something to do with health, you know, and that's kind of again underlined it in some way.
And then, but one of the things I remember, see, one of the reasons that I kind of was a bit spooked was because I had been ill the year before.
And, you know, I didn't know what implications that might have.
And I wasn't completely recovered.
So it was a serious enough thing, Ramsey Hunt syndrome, which is paralysis and blah, blah, palsy and awful stuff, you know.
So I didn't want that coming back.
But so for the first week or so, I would say I got into it big time.
And we had one box of plastic gloves with 50 pairs of gloves in it, James.
And I were worried that this would not be enough.
So I developed a system whereby I would wash the gloves after using them and try and make each pair last several uses at least, right?
And so I would hang them up on a big vase in the kitchen to dry out.
And it's working very well, I must say.
And I used to now, but then when I started to become aware of the absurdity of it, like, because I would put on my gloves, right?
And then I would leave the apartment and go out and I would open the front door with the handle.
And then I would suddenly stop and say, oh my God, now my glove is contaminated.
Oh, I better go back and change my gloves.
So I would go back and I would put on a different pair of gloves and would then wash those other ones and hang them up on the vase, right?
And then I would go out and this time I would open the door with my elbow, right?
Carefully.
And then I would go down the street and then I would go across the street and I would push the button on the traffic lights with my finger.
And then I'd go, oh no.
It's a bit like opening public loo doors with your elbows.
So this went on for a few days.
And I was fascinated.
And because, again, talk about the game, James.
You know, this is an amazing thing about games.
Because now I was obsessed with the game of preserving as many as possible of the gloves for as long as possible.
So I wanted to be only have maybe four or five gloves out in action at any given time and keep them cycling, recycling.
And I was doing very well with that aspect of the game.
And so I, and then after about six or seven days, I'd been on with Dave Cullen, who had a channel on YouTube at the time.
And we were talking in the very beginning, the first few, they're still up there.
And the first two were kind of like very concerned about pandemic.
And by the third one, then we're saying, what the, you know, this is.
And that there was a German doctor called Wolfgang Wodark.
He was the one who kind of converted me.
And he, because he'd been the, he'd been the guy who called out the first, this wine flu thing back in 2009.
And he was working in the European Commission or something.
And he had influence then and he managed to nail it and close it down completely.
They were trying the same scam then.
And he sat, he did about a 17 or 20 minute video in 2020 that I watched.
And he was going, he was being very plausible until he came to the punchline.
And I was kind of, he was converting me.
And then he said, it's emperor's new clothes.
I said, ah, no, come on.
Well, that's a bit over the top, you know, to myself.
That kind of thing.
But still, when it all settled down, I digest it.
I watched it again.
I said, nice, right?
It's Emperor's New Clothes.
That's what it is.
And then I just went, that was the end of it, you know.
Now, there were other influences around me at the time.
Certain friends who were kind of nudging me, and yeah, I was having arguments with them, like as I have with you in the past about things, you know, saying, No, no, no, you know, you've got to take this seriously.
You know, you're a conspiracy theorist or something.
I didn't say that.
No, I must say, in my defense, I didn't ever say that.
But, you know, I was kind of, you know, they wouldn't do that, James.
You know, why would they would?
Why would they want to do that?
You know, they're trying to help us save our lives, you know, that kind of thing.
But then I kind of said, no.
And then the thing is, by virtue of having been duped and seen through it so quickly, I was then completely cured of it all.
You know, whereas if I go on longer, I'd be trying to justify it in some way and say, well, there was, no, it was nonsense.
And they took me in for a week or 10 days.
Yeah.
And that was so, yeah.
See, I don't mind, James, I'm admitting to naivety.
I, you know, I'm happy enough.
I think naivety is actually quite a good quality, up to a point.
Obviously, it's dangerous.
I don't want you to be claiming all the naive points here.
I want you to know, John, that I too, in the early stages, was I bought into it.
And I was some of my, I used to do a podcast with Toby Young.
And I remember one episode early on where I was more nervous about this deadly pandemic than Toby was.
I was an early Dominic Frisbee.
I don't know whether you know me.
He says, I'm always too early on things.
So I was worrying about the pandemic before most people even knew there was anything going on.
I was watching that, I was being persuaded by the Chinese videos which were being dropped into groups like Reddit and anywhere where sort of conspiracy or sort of out there types would be looking.
Anyway, so but yeah, and there was another guy actually know you remind him.
There was what was that guy used to have a he was very he's gone, he's disappeared completely from the internet now, but he was a really strong voice.
And he was talking about China and Chinese influence and Chinese spawn pandemics early on.
And that influenced me a lot.
I can't remember his name will come back to me.
He was Austrian or no, he's actually born in Ireland.
He was born in Atlone actually, where he lived abroad for most of his life.
Anyway, they thought he was a plan.
He's a good guy.
Well, he's a very good guy, but he was really certain that the Chinese were going to start something like this.
And when it happened, then he was saying, yeah, here it comes, here it comes.
And I was saying, okay, well, that's it there.
But it was just what you were saying about your gloves, your special gloves, times with me because I remember in the very early days feeling like I was the hunter-gatherer that was going to save my family.
And I was going to secure all these things before I was going to get to the shops and get these things or order them online before they ran out.
So I remember getting three containers of squirty hand sanitizer with anti-viral qualities.
And I thought, this is great.
I don't care if the rest of the world dies.
The main thing is I've secured for my family some anti-viral hand washes.
And I put one in the car and I felt really good about this.
But that's again a game.
I was winning.
I was winning the game.
You're winning.
Yeah.
This is the point.
See, everything is in a certain sense a game.
When you think about human behavior, like my wife, somebody's always on to me about if I go into buying secondhand books in charity shops, you know, and bring them home.
And she goes, where do you want to put those books?
You've got enough toast amount.
I said, no, no, I don't want to.
No.
But I said, why do you do it?
I said, because it's the game.
I'm playing against, I've got a brand new copy of Salmon Rushdie's novel, which only came in last week.
And nobody in this charity shop knows who Salmon Rushdie is.
So they've priced it at one Euro and I've got it now.
And nobody's even opened the pages of it.
Now, I might never read it, but I've gotten it.
But you've, you've, you've, you've, you've, you've, you've, that's definitely a ladder, not a snake.
Yes, exactly.
So all life is like that, really, if you think about it.
Everything you do in your head, maybe it's just mad people like us, but you know, it could be a male trait, certainly, because my son is very much the same as that.
And I can totally identify with what you're saying here.
Well, I think my daughter has got it as well for me, you know.
And we're lost.
She mightn't like me saying that, but I think she does.
She likes the charity.
She has a charity shop bug anyway.
Because that's a game.
You're pitted against the elements, against the very way that society is organized in the context of materialism and what falls over the edge of materialism.
That's the stuff that ends up in charity shops.
And you're there and you are there and you're watching for the things that just freakish things that one person didn't want, but the rest of the world might give an arm for.
That's the buzz.
Although, you could argue that for us, us spoil sports, we started inventing a game of our own, which was how can I beat the system?
How can I get round or not?
Well, you know, it can be like that sometimes, James, in a charity shop, you know?
Because you see, they have the kind of blackmail of the cause, you know?
And you know that thing where you have, you've got something, you get something for four for, let's say, you know, you've got it for four quid, right?
And you've only got a fiver and you give in the fiber and the assistant says, oh, I'm sorry, I don't have any change.
Now, the impulse, you know, the blackmail is that you should actually say, oh, it's okay, I keep the fiber.
But see, that will destroy the result.
Yeah.
So, you know, you know, now you're going to have to pay five for it.
And so the buzz is reduced.
Do you understand?
Hopefully.
And so you actually, you're like Ricky Gervais in that sketchy, you know, where the beggar, he says to, haven't you got any beggar, haven't you got any change?
You know, because he's got to 20, you know.
It's exactly like that.
But it's because of the game thing.
You see, it's not meanness.
It's actually something else.
I is my case.
Okay.
But you see, so like my point is that if you look at virtually everything other than the really dark parts and horrible parts of life, we're always playing games.
Always.
You see, John, I think that little do you know it, but you've come upon the explanation of something that we're all asking, which is why won't the normies wake up and see what we see?
And you've explained it because they enjoy their game so much that they're so immersed in their game that when you tell them that they you say, look, you've got to stop playing this game because all the stuff you've learned at school about history, it's all a lie.
All the science stuff, it's all a lie.
They go, but you're taking away our rules.
Yes.
They don't like that.
You're taking away the board as well and the pizza.
Taking the dog and the car and the top hat.
Yes.
Yes, we're taking everything.
And that's why they're resisting.
And the guys who designed this, like this, knew that that would happen.
That's just really scary.
This is what I was going to come on to.
So it seems to me, and I'm saying this in every piece I write, pretty much, that the people who run the world, people responsible for all this shit, with the devil at the top, basically.
He's the CEO.
But his underlings, the reason that a tiny handful of them can govern so many of us and keep us in check is because their primary control mechanism is deception.
And we were part of that deception machine once, did we but know it, but we were because the media is an important part of it.
But the thing that some people can't quite grasp because it's too esoteric and they've been trained not to believe in the supernatural.
But a key element in this control mechanism is ritual magic, essentially a form of spells.
You talked about your Christian friend where you can kind of will things into existence.
And in the same way, these people have known for millennia that by manipulating, by performing the right rituals and showing the right signs and symbols, people can be manipulated into particular behavior.
The Termistock Institute is just a sort of more scientific continuation of that, where they've worked out the game through a way of getting into people's psyches.
Is this a way of understanding the evil in this context?
I don't know.
But it seems to me that if you are determined to be good or you are somehow programmed to be good, then you're going to have to avoid lots of shortcuts to gaining certain things in life than you might have if you weren't bothered with those kinds of niceties.
And it seems to me that a lot of people in politics and otherwise have understood or had it explained to them that if they don't, if they forget about all this obsession with being good and doing the right thing and being nice to people, that they will get lots and lots of stuff that they wouldn't get otherwise and make huge gains that they wouldn't possibly make by being good.
Have you seen the video of little?
He's a sort of new generation rapper called Little Lil Something.
No, I haven't.
He talks about, he's a Christian.
And he talks about how his people from his age group were driving these Lamborghinis.
And he said, how do you get these?
I said, oh, it's simple.
You've got to go and see this man up on the hill, down this track, and do these things.
And you get a Lamborghini.
And essentially, whatever they had to do was selling their soul in some way or another, sort of engaging in hideous acts.
But that is how the world works.
This is why I talked earlier about the Bible being an instruction manual.
What it says, when it talks about lay not up treasures for yourself on earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, but lay out treasures for yourself in heaven.
What it's explaining to you in kind of biblical Jesus terms is if you fixate too much on material wealth, you will end up getting sodomized by P. Diddy and his mates and having to drink children's blood because that's kind of the deal.
Yeah, because once you leave the ground of the good, you're entering into the darkness.
But here's the thing that I wonder about then, to answer your question, or maybe come closer to addressing your question as to why I thought we escaped it.
But I think that, you know, OK, I was talking to a friend this morning and she was saying that, you know, a lot of that there's this kind of line of demarcation in the population to get to all this stuff somewhere between 40 and 50, maybe.
And the people over above that line seem to have, in general, not that isn't, of course, universally true, more awareness.
And why, as compared to the younger generation, who don't?
And I think, actually, that that has a lot to do with the fact that the superstructure of society, the elements of religion, politics, culture, which were carefully built in the past, built into the society in a certain way, and particularly the religious ones, that in regards of whether you were a believer or not, you were influenced by these precepts.
Sure.
And also, there was a kind of an anthropological understanding that was carried in that whole package, in the Bible and so on, that the way people live, the way people are, you had an instinct.
And they whole, you know, this thing about the idea of God created us in his own image and the indignity of each individual human being, that being the sacrosanct notion in Christian theology.
All that, I think, alerted, helped to alert me to that there was lines being breached here that shouldn't be breached.
You know, like the Irish Constitution guaranteed certain rights, inalienable and imprescriptible rights, indefeasible rights, you know, really strong words.
And here they were being absolutely trod upon.
And I said, this can't be right, because it starts off in the name of the most, the preamble of the Constitution starts in the name of the most holy trinity.
You know, like, and it goes on to say that all matters of men and of states must be referred to the holy trinity.
Right?
So that you implicitly, even if you don't remember this expressly, you have an understanding through your childhood and adulthood that this is the way the world is.
So therefore, when you see evil coming up over the hill, you're aware of it in a way that, I don't know, maybe younger people aren't, because they haven't had those immersions that we've had.
Have you ever thought about why it is that the Irish were so incredibly badly treated by the British?
You think about, I only read recently about what Cromwell did to the population at, is it pronounced Drogheda or Drogheda?
Drogheda.
That having taken the town after the siege, he chopped off the hands of all the people inside so that they starved to death.
They couldn't feed themselves.
And I don't know how many people who died in the potato famine, but I do know that it was an awful lot and it was deliberately engineered by the powers that be.
Now, we're talking about evil again.
This seems to me to be, this is more than just the kind of the behavior of a ruthless, entitled governing class that just will stop at nothing to get its way.
It seems to me that there's an extra nuance, there's an extra degree of awfulness about this behavior.
Yes.
And I think this is my theory.
that ireland and the irish have always been a target in actually the same way that the british people sometimes have been been a target the ordinary british people because they are some of the earliest christians i mean the irish church was really quite important in the i i i've always i've sensed among the irish a kind of a connectedness to the to the mystical side of christianity that i think that other people often
lack i think that I think you're kind of special, you Irish.
Yes.
Because I think you're one of the lost tribes.
You are descended there from.
Okay, well, let me kind of deal with that in a moment.
A friend of mine has a theory which is somewhat off that point, but I think in a way it may be a factor, but the factor you mentioned is probably the greater one.
What he says is that the reason for all of this behavior by the English, it's the English really, we think.
Yeah, the English, yeah.
And it's the English government, I guess, not the English people.
We're well aware of that as well.
And it's the combine or it's the predator class ultimately still, you know, in their, yeah.
So, but he says the reason is that they were terrified because the Irish population was expanding so quickly, and it did in the century before what are called the famines, the genocides of the 1840s, the population had gone up from something like 3 million to 8 million, like in a very short time.
And they were terrified that Ireland would end up with a bigger population than England and would actually somehow manage to defeat them and become more powerful than they were.
Now, I mean, that was one, that's not implausible.
But I think your other thing is, I think it's the fact that Ireland remained Catholic, but it wasn't Roman Catholic.
It's very important to see this initially.
At that time, it wasn't Roman Catholic.
It was kind of Celtic Christianity.
And that was a different thing.
I mean, it was different to the paganism, but had quite strong links with the paganism that are there before, the veneration of the land and the landscape and so on.
And I think that kind of difference in the sensibility of Ireland and England, I think, was one of the factors.
And I actually think also, later on, I mean, one of the reasons that I think now, one of the reasons that I often think why Ireland is a particular target now, and I think it is.
Yes.
We're being attacked in a way that is much more vicious than a lot of other countries.
And it seems we're also being attacked first with different proposals and different to trying things out.
And I think that has to do again with the Catholic tang, with the Christian tang.
And in particular, with the idea that the Easter Rising of 1916 was the first revolution against the British Empire that was really successful eventually.
And it created a lot of kind of, you know, copycats around the world and inspired a lot of other movements to shook off colonialism and imperialism and so on.
And that writing was really interesting because it was actually based on the Christian story, on the crucifixion and the resurrection.
Because Pierce, who was the leader, the spiritual leader, he wasn't the military leader, really.
That was Thomas Clarke.
But Pierce was the metaphysical leader of the writing.
And his whole thing, he knew it was going to fail on the day.
He knew they wouldn't succeed, that their numbers were too few and that it would go against them ultimately.
And he knew they would be executed too.
And they were.
But he also knew that that would be the thing that eventually turned the mind of the Irish people to revolt for real, the whole lot of them, not just as that was, a group would end.
And I think that that is something which these predators, this combine, really fear, is the power that...
You see, ultimately, I come back to those three things that I was writing about that I mentioned earlier, family, nation, and God.
They're the superarching royalties of humanity.
They're the things that men are prepared to die for.
Their family, their nation, their God.
And in that sense, they cannot be reached by material means or by normal use, application of power.
They transcend, literally, those forces in the world.
And I think that's what they fear most of all, that they don't know, you see, the control grid they're making for the world now would work on animals.
But they've never really tried it.
It's never been tried on human beings.
Now, other experiences will be instructive for them, and they're pretty good at gathering that kind of data and so on.
But what they cannot predict is the downstream response of humanity trapped in such a digital nightmare.
And I believe that there are certain places in the world where they will be looking to for that danger more than in others.
And Ireland will be one of them.
That's my thesis about that.
Yes, I don't, that makes sense.
And I totally agree with you about the family, nation, and God.
I mean, I know who my people are.
And they're certainly not represented by any of the political parties or any of this nonsense.
It is this Punch and Judy nonsense that gets served up to us.
I mean, what's happening in politics is so detached from anything that matters to anybody.
Yes.
Yes.
It is.
It is.
Now, it's quite clear, you know, now to me, after having spent many, many years talking about current affairs, current events, politics, that Jackie Lull is completely right, like that this is all misdirection.
It's all distraction.
It's all a way of confusing the public in order to draw them in.
Because really, James, what benefit us?
I mean, I know this sounds callous, but what difference does it make to our lives today in our countries, you in the United Kingdom, me in Ireland, what happens in Gaza tonight, today?
What difference does it make?
It doesn't make any difference.
They're trying very hard to tell.
I occasionally glance across at my wife's copy of the Telegraph, and there are endless, endless stories trying to explain why Israel is the interest of most concern to the readers.
And you're thinking, well, hang on a second.
What about the potholes in the roads?
What about all these things?
Well, I mean, yesterday, last week, we had an event, and that's a couple of weekends ago, actually.
Misha Era, it's called I Am Ireland.
It's actually a poem written by Porik Pierce, that's the guy I was just talking about.
It's a very powerful poem, you know, about the run into the rising and the state of things and the darkness he was feeling, but nevertheless, the hope he was feeling.
And at the end, there was a kind of a Q ⁇ A thing.
And one woman in the audience shouted, you know, what about Palestine and all this?
And it was kind of, we moved on from it.
But I was outside later and this woman came up to me and started shouting me about, what about Palestine?
And I said, don't you think we have enough problems saving our own country without worrying about Palestine as well?
I mean, are the Palestinians worried about Ireland?
I don't think so.
Well, I am.
So can we just deal with that?
And then maybe if we have some energy left over, we'll worry about Palestine.
And I think that's a perfectly reasonable position.
But there's this kind of moral blackmail that you have to actually care about everything in the world.
But if you did, you'd be exhausted all the time.
This is why I'm very wary.
And one gets into trouble with the kind of mainstream resistance.
Right now, there are obvious moves where the populace is being psychologically manipulated by social media, by the newspapers, into rising up in outrage and disgust at all these hostels full of these military-age men who've been imported with the governments.
Obviously, the governments say so and stuff.
And clearly, they are some kind of a future paramilitary force designed to crush us.
This is all obvious.
Nobody likes it.
Nobody likes it.
But what people don't understand is that the people who are going to appear from nowhere as white knights to sweep away or to respond to this system, this problem, are controlled by the same people who created the problem in the first place.
farage and co just just more puppets to do well you see that that's a very interesting i mean i know that i know that hypothesis and and and it has a lot of validity for sure But here's the thing I think that is most interesting about that.
That goes against every single Hollywood movie you ever watched, right?
Because in the Hollywood, in all movies, you get that moment of catharsis followed by the rescue.
You have to start, you know, the last act.
You know, the cavalry is going to come over the hill.
Clint Eastwood is going to come and he's going to shoot up the saloon.
Yeah.
Randolph, right?
On his white charger.
And that is so ingrained into us now that it has become an extraordinarily misleading trope in our imaginations because we are all the time thinking, well, where's the good guy?
And as you say, these guys have figured out that we are going to be looking at it and they're going to make the good guy into another bad guy, except badder than the last guy.
That's their game.
And if that's the case, James, that's a despair-making scenario, obviously, isn't it?
But you see, if it's real, then we should face it.
And the problem is that in some way we are programmed.
Even Christianity programs us for hope.
It does program us for hope.
And so we are, you know, almost like lambs to the slaughter by virtue of our trust that there's somebody trustworthy going to come along.
And I mean, that's been our experience in reality as well.
You know, I mean, when you're a child, if you were being bullied, somebody would come along and intervene, maybe, you know, and rescue you and take you.
And then you see that and that goes in as well.
But if the world at the macro level is now such that that is no longer a credible position to hold, you know, it's very scary indeed, isn't it?
I know.
How do we not end this podcast on a despairing note?
I mean, I sort of often this charge gets leveled against Christians that it's basically a cop-out, that they're just saying, well, they're deferring all the problems to God's going to sort it out.
Jesus is going to be.
Or like the bottom line as well, you know, even if you're a shit life, you know, the next life is going to be great.
Yeah.
Well, I, you know, but I want to fix this life, James.
Unfortunately, that's a part of me, you know, that again, maybe that's slightly un-Christian or something.
I don't know.
But I would like this life to be nicer to people.
And I would like to put an end to this evil.
You can have that.
You can do that.
You have it within your power.
What is your understanding of that power?
How would it work?
Okay.
So on the micro level, it's by interactions like the one I had with the egg lady.
The world is just, it just makes everything better.
Just the more you, the more you communicate with people and do innocent things like when I was coming out of church the other day, I passed the egg.
I'm sorry to bang on about the egg box, but the joint eggs.
And I looked inside.
It was one of those, like one of those plastic tubs when you go on canoeing expeditions.
And I said to this woman who was coming out of church with me, have you tried these eggs?
Are they any good?
She said, I don't know.
There've never been anyone I've looked.
And I looked in the box and there were enough eggs for two of us.
So I said, I'll buy you a box.
So I treated her to the box of eggs.
And it made her happy.
It made me happy.
Far happier than an incident of such utter insignificance really should have done.
But it seems to me that this is on the micro level.
This is how we deal with the world.
We recognize that these people interact make everything nicer.
Well, see, that ultimately is my understanding of Christianity, James, because it has become perverted in the modern era and particularly in recent times where there's been a kind of a politicization of things, which implies that Christianity requires you to have the particular ideology and a particular attitude to Gaza and a particular attitude to mass migration or a particular and all that.
It doesn't.
What it demands of us is that in each encounter in the world, that we behave as close as possible to the way Jesus would have behaved in that encounter.
Which you did with that one one.
So that is what I call the microelement.
And I think that's really important.
And it's fun as well.
They feel better.
Okay.
Now, there's a related concept to that, James.
And maybe this will spoil in a way, the beautiful analogy you've created.
But I think it is worth drawing in here because it has a connection.
But it is political in some sense.
And this is the idea of Václav Havel's idea, which I talk about quite a lot.
I talk about it in the book of the power of the powerless, where he says that.
Like, in other words, you don't need to organize a revolution in the streets.
You don't need to bring down the government.
You don't need to assassinate the chief of the leader of the Communist Party or whatever it is.
All you need to do is certain things that are given to you in each day, responsibilities that you are given, charges that you're given.
And they might be big or small, but they're generally small.
And the example he gives is the Greenghoser in Prague, who had this sign in his window, which says, in the middle of the communist era, which says, workers of the world unite.
And Havel says, obviously, the Greenghoser doesn't believe in the sentiment.
He just has it in there to save his ass, to keep the regime off his back, and so on.
But he says that in order to actually act in a way that is productive from the point of view of freedom, what he should do is remove the sign because that sign is complicating things for other storeholders who don't have a sign and are maybe being or maybe feel they have to have a sign and they would take and all that.
So he says those little gestures, and I thought about it, of course, in the context of the COVID scam.
Like an example would be, you know, not wearing a mask and walking, instead of ducking and diving, walking straight into the supermarket, picking up your eggs and your milk and going to the checkout and see what happens.
And then having a discussion, politely, but saying, no, I don't wear masks or whatever.
And what I found with that kind of thing, it's hugely satisfying.
And particularly so if you don't get into a row, where if you just simply say, look, this is my position.
And sometimes you do get into rows, or I did.
And that's inevitable, I guess.
But the thing is that each day, do you know that kind of thing that you get given something to do that's just a little bit awkward and unpleasant?
And you wish it wasn't happening.
But the idea is to just simply embrace that and do it because that's what you're called to do.
And then say, okay, I did that.
And when you're falling asleep that night, you think back and say, that was a good thing.
I feel good about that.
And that's quite related to your thing about the eggs, I think.
It's a political dimension of that.
It's the political wing of that kind of what you might call friendliness or generosity or whatever it is.
You know, I think, and they're the same thing in a certain sense, but in a political totalitarian situation, the other one is just as important, I think.
It doesn't arise in the normal course of events in the normal society.
But in a totalitarian society, such as we now all live in, it does.
The other thing I wanted to, so we talked about the micro, but I think equally, I do think one should strive to live as closely as possible according to Jesus's precepts.
That seems to me very reasonable.
But as you know, I read the Psalms a lot.
And the Psalms are very big on this.
The Psalms are like a kind of microcosm of, well, certainly of the Old Testament and actually the New Testament as well, because Jesus was massively into the Psalms.
And the message of the Psalms, message a lot of the Bible is very, very clear.
Put your trust in the Lord.
Trust in the Lord and be doing good.
well in the land and verily thou shalt be fair um that you you get stories all the time like like
gideon and his and his handful of men that that that the beat the who was it the philistines whatever whoever they beat um you've got shadrach shadrach meshach and abednego in the far in the fiery furnace that if you're going to be if you're going to do christianity right you have to recognize the supernatural element it's not just a kind of be nice to everyone human thing it's actually the supernatural element is really important
and you absolutely have to have faith that god is going to sort out this shit in the end yeah he does if you if you trust in him he he does amazing things and i that's right i got a great i remember once years ago an old fella i was in a kind of a spot and i was quite scared about something and he became no he became aware of it and he brought me into a cafe and a hotel and he bought me a coffee and he said you're frightened you know and i says yeah i am
and i give him a little bit of an explanation and he just said to me very simple he says yeah but um do you believe in god or do you not believe in god that beautiful that is fantastic yeah that's it that's as simple as that
like you know it's so so simple you see you're not acting like you believe in god you say you do but you're not acting now at this moment and this happens to us all the time james doesn't it we lose faith because of the agencies of the moment the pressures of the moment the horror that we feel we have to fix well in fact maybe the natural thing is to stand back and say i can't fix this you're you take over
to see what happens i
think that that is that is the happy way of ending this podcast i do you believe in god or do you not believe in god that is just yeah yeah thank you john i'm i've really enjoyed chatting you we're gonna have to make it shorter than two years the gap between our next this and our next yes definitely i think i think we we've agreed about it most things today james that's quite uh oh i didn't expect not to i really didn't um no neither did i actually neither did i but but yeah i it's yeah i think we we
uh our journeys are quite similar although they take different detours here and there uh but it's it's uh i think you're absolutely right in in what you're saying and what you're saying and implying almost every in every sentence like that we need humanity can't escape from this without supernatural help yeah but luckily god god is quite powerful yes i
think he's been keeping his powder dry but yeah he has but we know that his wrath will be something to behold um is there anything you want to plug i mean obviously you want to tell people you've got this book out yes the abolition of reality uh a first draft of the end of history and i mean that isn't as black a title a subtitle as it sounds because i'm prepared to write another draft when god intervenes and fixes it all and we have a happy ever after ending
and it's so heavy uh you can use self-defense and as a as a doorstep yes it's multi-purpose it is oh yes that's it in case the the the the goon squad coming come come calling you know which may happen any day like it's happened to graham lenehan you know yeah yeah if graham if graham had had that book with him yesterday he wouldn't have gone he would never got him um it's great It's been great chatting here, John.
I've really enjoyed it, as always.
And I tell you what, I broke my special rule.
I never go over two hours because I'm very much against the Joe Rogan thing.
Oh, yeah.
And I flag.
I really flag.
But I know you like a chat.
Yes, I do.
Yeah.
Thank you very much, James.
It's been great again to see you.
Yeah, I really enjoyed it.
Thank you so much.
So, oh, anything else you want to mention?
Your Substack?
Oh, yeah, Substack.
I'm on that.
You know, I'm still working away on that.
JohnWaters.substack.com.
I find Substack, there's something weird going on there.
I'm not quite sure what it is.
I'll talk to you about it some other time.
Oh, yeah, I share your concerns.
They're limiting us.
Yes, they're sitting on us.
They're sitting on us.
They're using us.
It's a trap.
They basically kidnapped us, James, and their holiness to ransom.
Yeah, they are.
We need to think of a way around this because it's becoming an increasing problem.
In fact, I was going to say, look, I mentioned before, if you want to support me directly, you can.
I'll put my email address or something and you can contact me.
It's getting a real problem now.
Try and penetrate Substack system and try and support me if you can.
That would be great.
Or even go old school and go Patreon.
If not, buy me a coffee.
But do please try and make the effort to support me.
It's becoming increasingly hard.
And, you know, you want to say thank you to the stuff I do because you kind of like it.
You don't want me to just work for free, I hope.
Yeah.
Thanks for watching anyway.
And thank you again, John Waters.
Thank you, James.
Global warming is a massive con.
There was no evidence whatsoever that man-made climate change is a problem, that it's going to kill us, that we need to amend our lifestyle in order to deal with it.
It's a non-existent problem.
But how do you explain this stuff to your normie friends?
Well, I've just brought out the revised edition of my 2012 classic book, Watermelons, which captures the story of how some really nasty people decided to invent the global warming scare in order to fleece you, to take away your freedoms, to take away your land.
It's a shocking story.
I wrote it, as I say, in 2011, actually, the first edition came out.
And it's a snapshot of a particular era.
The era when the people behind the climate change scan got caught red-handed tinkering with the data, torturing till it screamed in a scandal that I helped christen Climategate.
So I give you the background to the skullduggery that went on in these seats of learning where these supposed experts were informing us.
We've got to act now.
I rumbled their scam.
I then asked the question: okay, if it is a scam, who's doing this and why?
It's a good story.
I've kept the original book pretty much as is, but I've written two new chapters, one at the beginning and one at the end, explaining how it's even worse than we thought.
I think it still stands out.
I think it's a good read.
Obviously, I'm biased, but I'd recommend it.
You can buy it from jamesdellingpole.co.uk forward slash shop.
