James asks Bible scholar, author and podcaster Derek P Gilbert all the key questions about fallen angels, demons and the Nephilim. Where did they come from? Is Satan the same as Lucifer? Are they the same gods the Greeks and Romans worshipped? Did Hillary Clinton really steal Gilgamesh’s tomb? What happened to Michael S Heiser? And lots more. Derek’s website is derekpgilbert.com where you can buy some of his numerous books including The Second Coming of Saturn: The Great Conjunction, America’s Temple and the Return of the Watchers.↓ ↓ ↓If you need silver and gold bullion - and who wouldn't in these dark times? - then the place to go is The Pure Gold Company. Either they can deliver worldwide to your door - or store it for you in vaults in London and Zurich. You even use it for your pension. Cash out of gold whenever you like: liquidate within 24 hours.https://bit.ly/James-Delingpole-Gold↓ ↓How environmentalists are killing the planet, destroying the economy and stealing your children's future.In Watermelons, an updated edition of his ground-breaking 2011 book, JD tells the shocking true story of how a handful of political activists, green campaigners, voodoo scientists and psychopathic billionaires teamed up to invent a fake crisis called ‘global warming’.This updated edition includes two new chapters which, like a geo-engineered flood, pour cold water on some of the original’s sunny optimism and provide new insights into the diabolical nature of the climate alarmists’ sinister master plan.Purchase Watermelons by James Delingpole here:https://jamesdelingpole.co.uk/Shop/↓ ↓ ↓Buy James a Coffee at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/jamesdelingpoleThe official website of James Delingpole:https://jamesdelingpole.co.ukx
Welcome to the Dellingbod with me, James Dellingpole.
And I just wanted to tell you about something really exciting coming up quite shortly.
It's James Dellingpole's birthday bash.
His big birthday bash, I believe it's been called.
Can you guess why?
Well, unfortunately, I've got a big birthday coming up.
I don't normally like to celebrate these things, but this one is kind of unavoidable.
It's not actually on my birthday.
It's on August the 1st.
My actual birthday was held on the anniversary of the day when the atomic bomb didn't go off over Hiroshima because nukes aren't real and it was a napalm strike.
But that's another story.
So my big birthday bash is on August the 1st.
And the highlights include, well, I suppose the highlight is me chatting on stage, doing a Delling Pod live with Bob Moran.
now apart possibly from my brother Dick who's obviously easy to talk to because he's my brother I think Bob is is one of the people I most enjoy chatting with him because he's bright obviously he's got hinterland he does He doesn't take prisoners and the conversation could go in any direction and it probably will.
I'm really looking forward to our chat.
So thank you Bob for appearing on the stage with me.
Also we've got Dick.
Dick will be there of course and he'll be playing bass with unregistered chickens.
I've also got some of my friends from the world of natural health coming up and if you arrive early enough you might be able to try some of their potions or even their treatments.
I'm not sure what they want to do but there'll be stalls and things to look at and there'll be pizza.
There'll be pizza, really delicious.
The last time, last event I had, we got the same caterers.
Food is extra, obviously, but the pizzas were really good and they also did these really nice I'm quite fussy about food, these nice I think it was pulled beef, something like that, it was just food you'd want to eat.
I think the best thing about these events is not even about me, it's about all the other wonderful people that turn up.
You will be amazed.
These are like the best friends you've never met, because you'll suddenly feel, Hang on a second, I'm not alone.
There are other crazys just like me.
They're really, really fun, these events.
I would do them much more often, but unfortunately I get so nacked because of my tedious illness thing.
I mean, I've barely recovered from the last one.
It's in the middle, it's in central England, I will tell you.
It is surrounded by beautiful countryside, there'll be BBs and stuff you can stay in.
I would do that if I were you.
It's on a Friday night, August 1st, I mentioned, but you might want to make a weekend of it because there's lots of stuff to see around.
Or you could come early and have a walk, I don't know, whatever.
Anyway, I hope I will see you there.
August 1st, James's big birthday bash.
It's going to be fun.
Limited number, strictly limited number of tickets.
There's only going to be 20 VIP tickets for reasons which will become obvious if you buy one.
They're for people who want to have special quality time with James.
Otherwise, they just get a normal ticket.
You will have fun, but please be quick because there are limited tickets.
They're being very strict on numbers, the venue.
So get in there as soon as you can.
And won't it be great?
Like August, I think is a really boring month.
month everyone goes away you'll need something to cheer you up for the fact that you're not in Ibiza or Greece or wherever you would like to be um this will make up for the fact and we'll all be able to commiserate with one another and have a really really good time I'm so looking forward to seeing you there at James's big birthday bash thank you can't wait
welcome the Dellingpod with me James Dellingpole and I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest but before we meet him let's have a word from one of our sponsors.
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Welcome to the Delling Pod, Derek Gilbert.
Has it really been 15 years since we last spoke?
It was back in 2010, I was a year into my podcast called A View from the Bunker, which is a tongue and cheek title because they know where we live.
But you were writing very frequently back in the day about the green energy scam.
You were early in pointing that out.
And so back in 2010, you were very graciously gave your time to this unknown guy in the American Midwest.
I think it was March of 2010 when you on my podcast.
So I think after 15 years, it's about time that I get a chance to be on yours.
Just goes to show, doesn't it, Derek, that you've got to always be nice to little people, because you never know how big they're going to get.
I mean, you've got quite a following now, haven't you?
I don't know about that.
I think we are kind of in the fringe of Christian authors in that we don't – Christian back in the day, because we don't.
try to tickle ears, as Paul would have written, those who will not withstand sound doctrine, but will have their ears tickled.
And some of the things that we're writing about and researching in the Bible and with archaeology, and God bless the archaeologists for being willing to go out and dig things out of the sand in the deserts of Iraq and Syria and Israel, are not what's being taught by most pastors.
which is that the small G gods of the Bible were not just the imaginary friends of the pagans that lived around.
ancient Israel but were actual entities.
That's such a good place to start, actually, Derek.
And you're clearly a man after my own heart because I...
Well, I agree with you on a lot of things you've said there.
And one of them is, I was brought up a Church of England Christian, which basically means...
And I've become much more interested in Christianity since I went completely down the rabbit hole about, I mean, the climate change.
thing was just the beginning.
And then more recently, I realized it's not just climate science is a scam.
Everything is a scam.
They're out to get us every way.
And basically, the devil is the prince of this world.
Once you get there, you start getting a lot more interested in the Bible and stuff.
And I realized that Paul meant what he wrote when he said, We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the cosmic rulers over this present darkness.
Yeah, that is, Ephesians 6 is one of my favorite, my favorite passages.
And one of the things I've discovered on my journey into Christianity is how many Christians have just got it totally wrong about so much.
There's so much they don't understand or don't want to understand or have misunderstood.
And it's really quite hard sometimes.
That's bullocks.
You're talking complete bullocks.
I can't believe it, I can't believe it.
But so I'm really I'm really I totally agree with you that these junior gods, they actually exist.
And I think you'll agree with me here.
These gods are the same gods that the Greeks worship, the Romans, they just they just got different names.
Right.
And that's basically what my wife and I have been researching.
And we have to give credit where it's due.
Everything that we do is based on the foundation of the work by a good friend of ours who was called home by the Lord just a couple of years ago, Dr. Michael S. Heiser, who wrote the book Oh, I know you're a good friend of mine.
Yeah, we were honored to call Mike a friend.
In fact, I still his brother picked up the fantasy baseball league that Mike started years ago.
And so I still play in the fantasy baseball league that Mike started.
We were honored to have Mike and his wife Drina go to come to Israel with us back in twenty eighteen.
So to hear Mike teach on the slope of Mount Hermon about the fallen and what they conspired to do on the summit of Mount Hermon, which one scholars referred to as the Canaanite Olympus was a true honor to hear him teach on the meaning of Peter three verses nineteen and twenty where Jesus descended to proclaim to the spirits in prison at the Jordan River because Peter connected that Jesus' declaration of victory
over these fallen entities in the abyss and then he connects that to baptism it's like okay here's why we baptize to have him do that at the Jordan River like wow okay so what Sharon and I've been doing for the last well gosh we first connected with Mike back in the fall of twenty oh five before he wrote the unseen realm we've just been trying to apply that research to the Bible and to archaeology and say,
okay, look, when we're teaching our kids literature and we're having them read Greek mythology as literature, it's like, wait a minute, that was their religion.
And now let's show you how this overlaps with the Bible.
And when you start digging into the original languages, when you look at what Jewish religious scholars believed in the Second Temple period, which includes the time of Jesus and the Apostles, you realize that Jews, who were dominated by Greeks beginning in the late fourth century BC after Alexander the Great overran the Levant,
they knew what their Greek neighbors believed and they understood the connection because you find in the Septuagent translation, which was translated by Jewish religious scholars in the third and second centuries BC, that very often the Hebrew word Rephaim is translated as Titans or as giants.
They understood that the sons of God from Genesis chapter six verses one through four, who came into the daughters of men, which is a euphemism, and produced these monstrous giants called Nephilim, they understood that these were the Titans of Greek mythology who, according to Peter in Peter.
In second Peter two verse four, which reads, for God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast him into hell, except that the word in Greek is not Hades, it's Tartarus.
He cast him into Tartarus, which is a different level of the Netherworld reserved for supernatural threats to the divine order.
This is not where the human dead go.
So there was a definite overlap.
And I think, you know, if I had been twelve years old and heard this taught in church, it's like, wait a minute, you're saying Hercules was one of the Nephilim?
Yeah, that's what we're saying.
There's a lot of overlap between what we were taught.
is mythology and what's in the Bible.
Right.
So do the Greeks and Romans did they have an equivalent of the god that we worship of Yahweh, Jehovah, whatever, that Christians?
Would Zeus count in Jupiter or not really?
No, not really.
He would be the cognate to Satan in fact in Matthew twelve, beginning of verse twenty two, where Jesus is accused by the religious leaders in Jerusalem of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebul, which means Prince Baal or Baal the Prince.
Jesus responds by saying, If Satan casts out demons by his own power, how will Satan's kingdom stand?
And then in Revelation two, verse thirteen, Jesus' letter to Pergamum, where he says, I know where you live, where Satan dwells.
That's a reference to the great altar of Zeus.
Well, Zeus was just Baal by a different name.
There are definite one to one correlations between the Canaanite pantheon and the Greek and Roman pantheon.
So Baal is Zeus is Jupiter.
El of the Canaanites would be Cronos of the Greeks, would be Saturn of the Romans.
In fact, I wrote a book kind of tracing that character called The Second Coming of Saturn.
It's my opinion, and I think you can go all the way back to Mesopotamia, by the way, with Enlil as Cronos as Saturn, and then Marduk as Zeus as Jupiter, the sky god in Mesopotamian pantheon Anu, who was replaced by Enlil would be the equivalent of Oranos in Greek myth and Kalis in the Roman myths, Roman religion, actually.
They were off in space somewhere, they didn't really care about humanity.
But in the Greek myth, which echoes an older myth from the Hurrian people, the Hurrians occupied northern Mesopotamia and actually had a presence in Canaan at the time of the Israelites moving into the land, their sky god, also called Anu, like Oranos in the Greek myths, was castrated by his son, Cumarbian to the Hurrians, and that would be Cronos to the Greeks.
And the same thing happened with the Roman myth where Saturn castrated his father.
the sky god.
I think that was, if anything, the sky god would be the rough equivalent of Yahweh in the pantheon.
In other words, this is the fake news version told by the pagans to explain the cosmology of the universe.
There was this sky god who was the father of all, but he's been neutered literally, and he no longer has any role to play in what goes on here on Earth.
The storm god, Jupiter, Zeus, Baal, and in other pantheons, even in the ancient Indian Vedic pantheon, Indra, the Hurrians called him Teshub, Thor to the Norse, the storm God always emerges as the king of the pantheon and I don't think it's coincidental and this would be the like I said this would be the cognate to Satan in the Bible so who is the sorry just to be clear who is the actual which which Roman
god and which Greek god is actually Satan is it Saturn or it would be it would be Jupiter and Zeus okay It's very hard to get a sort of definitive view on all this stuff.
For example, I'm confused.
Is Lucifer or is he not the same as Satan?
I argue he is not.
And that was also in the book, The Second Coming of Saturn.
When you look at the character of Satan in the Old Testament, he's only mentioned a few times, Job chapters one and two, and then in Zechariah chapter three, where he's accusing the high priest in the time of Zechariah.
There's a sort of mention in 1 Chronicles where David sends out a delegation to take a census of the people, and that results in judgment against the Israelites.
But there are reasons to question that, but the bottom line is when you see Satan in the Old Testament, he still has access to the throne of God.
He is not the Lord of hell as we Christians have been taught.
That really is based on church tradition that began in the second and third centuries AD.
So in fact the apostles would not have seen Satan this way.
But the character called Lucifer, this is from Isaiah fourteen, How Art Thou Fallen, O Lucifer, Son of the Morning?
This was based on the translation of the older Hebrew Hel Ben Shakar, which means light bringer, son of dawn.
Origin, one of the early church theologians early third century, translated Hel as Lux Pharis in Latin that means light carrier, light bringer, and Jerome, when he translated the Vulgate, the Bible into Latin, just adopted Origin's translation.
So Lucifer is essentially just a Latin translation of the Hebrew.
About thirty years ago, a scholar named William Gallagher wrote a paper and argued that Hel in Hebrew is essentially the Hebrew transliteration of the Acadian name El, which was Enlil, the father god of Mesopotamia.
Enlil would be the equivalent of Saturn or Chronos in that pantheon, replaced as King of the Pantheon later by Marduk, who'd be the equivalent of Zeus or Jupiter.
So I think you're dealing with this entity and in the book The Second Coming of Saturn, I argue that this character, Enlil, Saturn, Chronos, El of the Canaanites, was also referred to as Molech by the Hebrews, was the leader of this rebellion in Genesis chapter six, the sons of God who came to earth and saw that the daughters of men were fair.
He's named in the extra biblical book of first Enoch as Shemeaza.
And I argue that he's the character who's referred to as the destroyer by John in the book of Revelation, Apollyon, or Abaddon, one who is considered so dangerous that he is chained up in the abyss, because in Isaiah fourteen, he falls all the way down to Shael, where the shades in Hebrew, that's the Rephaim, the spirits of those Nephilim destroyed in the flood of Noah.
to rise up to greet him and say, Hey, look, you're just as weak as we are.
You've got worms for a bed and maggots for covering.
Satan is never depicted with any connection to the Nephilim, the Rephaim, again, those are the same entities, or the Netherworld.
That was a New Testament and after actually New Testament, that's an early church tradition that began as early Christian theologians tried to connect Isaiah fourteen and Ezekiel twenty eight to Jesus saying I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning, which is in the Gospel of Luke.
So no, Lucifer, in my view, is not.
Peter, in my view, is this other entity Shemeaza who led the Genesis VI rebellion and it was currently chained up in the abyss.
And again, Peter and Jude, Jude verses six and seven in his short epistle report that there are angels who sinned and in the context of Second Peter and Jude, it's clear it was a sexual sin which points back to Genesis six.
They're chained up in the abyss, where we read in the gospels that Satan still roams about like a lion seeking whom he may devour.
So Satan is still roaming around.
These other dudes, these other sinful angels were apparently considered so dangerous, God's got them chained up in the abyss in Tartarus, the bottomless pit.
It's hard, isn't it, to find that the Bible is quite sketchy on a lot of this stuff.
have to kind of piece things together.
It seems clear to me that people like Paul had access to information that we don't have access to anymore and that he knew stuff that...
It's not laid out for you?
No, and I think it's because back in the day it was considered common knowledge.
They didn't have to explain it because the readers already knew.
We've lost a lot of this over the centuries as we have moved away from a supernatural worldview, which as Christians should be our default setting.
Like you, I was raised in kind of high church settings here in the U.S., United Church of Christ, and then the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
So everything was organ music and laid out in the bulletin.
My wife, on the other hand, was raised in an independent Baptist church with a lot of amen and preach it and, you know, hallelujah, you know, being shouted out from the congregation.
Snakes, rattlesnakes, juggling, you know.
Not quite that far, although her ancestors do come from that part of Kentucky.
But we, you're right.
lot of what we've been taught is based on tradition.
It's not explicit in the Bible because I think for one thing, it was probably common knowledge to the early church and to the Jews of that first century period when the gospels and the epistles were being written.
But also because these are things that are not really essential to the That is laid out very clearly.
Paul lays it out in first Corinthians chapter fifteen, the first few verses where he lays out the gospel by which you are saved, which is believe that Jesus died for your sins in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he was raised again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.
I mean that's the gospel message in a nutshell.
And of course, it's very interesting what you say that.
You just reminded me that I was in, I came across this really interesting guide in one of the churches who explained to me the revolution that happened in the church in the Renaissance,
policed by Giorgio Vasari, who was a pretty second-rate artist, but he was obviously, he was appointed by the Vatican as their kind of hatchet man.
And one of the things they, one of their missions was to stop people, all the richly, richly illustrated scenes from the Old Testament and stuff, the things that would have made church really fun to go to and look around.
They didn't want this stuff anymore.
They wanted it to focus on the life of Christ and his message.
They wanted they felt that their branding wasn't right.
And to me, well, you look at the way that religious art went after the after the renaissance, it did get a bit kind of tedious.
Lots of pictures of Christ and the Virgin, but not many really good other stories.
And what you're describing there, I think, is quite similar.
That they didn't want you asking questions about what you and I might find the really interesting stuff, the background stuff.
They wanted you to focus on the life of our Savior.
And that is important.
And, you know, a lot of these other things aren't necessarily critical to salvation.
But it does emphasize, I think, these other stories, how intensely the enemy, and by that I mean the fallen angels, the small g gods, and their demonic minions have been trying to destroy what God created and called good, which includes humanity.
When you look at the consequences think it should be in the Bible.
There are internal contradictions within 1 Enoch that would disqualify it, but it does, it In fact, Jude quotes it explicitly.
Jude verses 14 and 15 quote, almost word for word, 1 Enoch chapter 1 verse 9.
And there are some doctrines in the New Testament that come right out of 1 Enoch, things that are not written in any prior Jewish writing, which would include the Old Testament.
But when you look at what had happened after these sons of God came into the daughters of men, these giants that were produced, these hybrid, semi-divine, semi-human offspring.
again, that we in the modern world would translate it into a Disney cartoon, you know, like Hercules, they were an existential threat to humanity.
And so God had to send a flood to wipe it from the face of the earth and start again.
If you don't understand that, then people can start asking questions.
Well, destroying the whole world.
Why would God do that?
That sounds like the actions of a psychopathic mass murderer.
The same holds true of the conquest of Canaan, when Joshua is told to go into the land and dedicate or devote to destruction a Hebrew word.
called the Hebrew word harem, which means under the ban or forbidden.
Everyone in this city, and these were typically Amorites cities, and when you read what the Amorites were into, Leviticus chapter eighteen specifically, do not read that out loud with children in the room, because the Amorites were doing things that were just absolutely despicable and disgusting.
God said, look, these are these people are totally sold out to these fallen entities.
They have to be absolutely destroyed.
And unless you understand the nature of this supernatural war.
natural war, these are the kind of things that can lead people away.
For example, Oprah Winfrey has said, well, you know, the Bible says God is a jealous God.
I don't believe my God is that way.
Like, I'm sorry, but that's what it says.
I mean, unless you want to rewrite his word, you've got to take it for a, maybe, maybe it's not that you disagree with what's in the word and the word's been, maybe you just don't understand what is meant by the English language translation of the original.
And again, my wife and I are trying, are not trying to create a new way of sensationalizing the Bible to make it interesting.
We're just trying to recapture the worldview of the prophets and the apostles.
Yeah, and also you're trying to get to the truth, which is kind of important.
I mean, I think we can infer that God is quite into truth.
So I think it's a noble mission.
It's not a you know, you're not doing a bad thing.
Oprah Winfrey, I'm not sure she would be my go-to source for Bible, et cetera.
Theology of any sort, yeah.
Theology, no, no.
So I'm not I'm not disappointed that Oprah wouldn't agree with your understanding of the Bible.
Yeah.
It is a thing, isn't it, that a lot of people don't get about the Old Testament.
they say, well, I think the Old Testament God is a different character from the New Testament one.
He's probably Satan because he does the most terrible things.
And until you understand the war that is going on between the Son of Man and the seed of the serpent, which is, I think, what these creatures are, isn't it?
This is why God wants them eradicated.
Because they're not created in the way that man was by God.
They're created by his creation.
They're sort of bastard offshoots.
Is that right?
Well, the seed of the serpent, I think, is a metaphor.
People who are following the doctrines of demons, as Paul would have called it, there is a heretical serpent seed teaching that has propagated through the United States.
It's not very large, but there are those who believe that somehow the line of Cain survived the flood of Noah, and they're actually part satanic offspring, and so they are irredeemable and must be destroyed.
There are some who believe that the Nephilim watermarkers, walk among us to this day and they are also irredeemable and you know, shape-shifting lizard people who are irredeemable and must be destroyed.
All right, God is going to deal with them if that's even true.
But since we can't prove it, let's not go there.
Let's stay with the things that we can prove.
The seed of the serpent would be those who are following in the satanic doctrines.
And I would argue that they are among the principalities and powers that Paul warned us about.
Demons, one of the things that we've been digging into, and I'm working on a new book now and just finished a chapter on the origin of demons, which again, the early church had no problem with this.
This was Christianity 101.
Demons are the spirits of those giants.
And again, this is explicit in the book of First Enoch, but you can also find the clues in the Old Testament, the connections between the Rephaeim, often translated into English as the dead, the shades, the departed, and Shael, which is the Hebrew equivalent of Hades.
So these are often placed in the Netherworld, for example, in the book of Isaiah, where they welcome Lucifer, Halal, into the Netherworld.
Also in Ezekiel thirty two, where the mighty chiefs or the chiefs of the Gibberim are.
In the Septuagint translation, it's the giants in the midst of Shell.
So there's that connection between the Nephilim, the giants, the Rephaim, and the underworld.
But interestingly, the pagan Greeks understood that that was the origin of Daemons.
The poet Hesiod, who wrote a lot of what we know about Greek religion in the seventh century BC, roughly contemporary with the prophet Isaiah, wrote that when the men of the Golden Age, who lived the Golden Age when Chronos ruled in heaven, in other words, the ancient times before Chronos.
Before Kronos and the Titans had been condemned to the Netherworld, before the massive flood, which in the Greek myth their Noah character was named Dukalian, these mortal men, when they passed from this life, their spirits became Daemons.
Well, that's where we get the word demon.
There are Hebrew words that are translated demon in the Old Testament, but when the apostles wrote the New Testament, they were not directed by the Holy Spirit to use those Hebrew words like Seirim or Shadim.
They used the Greek word Daemons, which according to Hesiod, were the spirits of these demigods who lived in the time of Chronos.
And interestingly, the phrase translated mortal men from the Golden Age by Hesiod and by Homer who wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey, that phrase is Meropes Anthropoi.
Of course, Anthropoi where we get anthropology, you know, study of humanity and so on, but Meropes.
According to a scholar named Amar, Anus, writing this paper about twenty five years ago, showed that the etymology of that word is the Semitic root word behind Refaim.
The RP in the middle of Merapes comes from the Semitic root for Rephaim.
In other words, the Greeks knew who the Rephaeim were they were the spirits of the mighty men who, you know, the mighty men of old, the men of renown, the Nephilim.
And so you've got this connection here between, again, Greek mythology and the Bible and the origin of demons and the early church theologians, universally for the first four hundred years after the crucifixion and the resurrection.
So say, oh yeah, demons, they're the spirits of the giants.
It wasn't until Augustine in the early Augustine in the early fifth century changed all that, and that's not what's being taught to pastors to this day.
Have you read Paradise Lost?
I have not.
My wife keeps saying you need to read this and she keeps telling me about I started on it, I need to do it because Sharon has just said this Milton was brilliant.
Yeah.
Well, without giving you the whole story.
Yeah.
Paradise Lost recounts the first books anyway recount Satan's fall from heaven, the rebellion.
And you see these various fallen angels making speeches, discussing how they're going to deal with the fact that they've and and and you you get stuff like um satan says better to reign in hell than serve in heaven so there are lots of sort of justificatory like yeah god's god's really stupid and and we're gonna we're gonna show him and but what what's interesting about the
the demonology of Paradise Lost it seems to suggest that Milton had again access to information that really has been more or less lost he's got named characters like Mammon and Beelzebub
um the the you know the various various names that are invoked and i'm not sure is this was just just milton just making stuff up or or how do we how do we know do you know the names of all these fallen angels and and is it reliable that information how do we know who they are angelology is kind of a tricky subject because if we use the Bible as our ultimate guide for truth,
there are only two angels that are even named in scripture, and that's Gabriel and Michael.
And Michael is the only one who's identified as an archangel.
So that's, you know, all that we can say for certain.
The book of 1 Enoch names seven archangels, including Uriel and Raphael and Sarakiel, Remiel, and I'm probably forgetting one or two others.
Again, 1 Enoch, we have to take carefully because it isn't scripture and shouldn't be scripture.
When it comes to the names of demons and fallen angels, the only one we know for certain from the Bible is Satan.
But even that isn't really certain because in the Old Testament, the word Satan or Satan is always preceded by the definite article the.
It's the Satan.
And even in the New Testament, it's usually preceded by the definite article ho, ho Satanus, the Satan.
It's a job title.
the adversary, the prosecuting attorney, the accuser.
So it raises the possibility that there was more than one.
In fact, there's a prayer found among the Dead Sea scrolls.
at Qumran, where the author of the prayer is asking God to protect him and the community from the Satan's plural.
So we really don't know.
I mean, there are some that are named in the book of First Enoch, again, Shemiaza, who's identified as the chief of the watchers, which is apparently a class of angelic being, the chief of the watchers who rebelled, Azael or Azazel or Azazel is named as the one who is responsible for teaching humanity things we weren't supposed to know.
There are a number of others who are named.
There is one that's named later, Mastima, who might be the name of the entity that tempted Eve in the garden.
But when it comes to, yeah.
And then there's Belial.
That's Belial.
yeah no he's the one to worry about exactly and then there's Belial who actually does appear in the old testament in the old testament there are a number of places where the English rendering is worthless fellows,
but it's actually in the Hebrew, it's Bene Belial, or sons of Belial but it's not clear from the context that Belial is an entity so what we know about angels and demons is limited and I ex I suspect it's because God didn't consider it essential for us as his followers to know about these things specifically the one that we
for sure is the entity known as the Satan, who clearly in the end times, and of course you've got Abaddon and Apollyon coming out of the bottomless pit in Revelation chapter 9.
But other than that, I mean, we don't really know.
Some of these other names that have become well-known, like Asmodeus, for example, a lot of these come from the occult and occult traditions, like the Lesser Key of Solomon, which was written in the late 1960s.
19th century you know we we've got to take all those with a grain of salt the one we know for sure is that Do you not think?
Oh, thank you.
Thank you very much.
Gee.
It's growing poison, it's tea.
We watch a lot of British television here and my wife generally will have tea in the morning, I'll ice mine down and have it later in the day.
So we're a big fan of tea biscuits here.
Tell you what you mustn't watch.
I watched a bit last night.
It's just about the worst thing I've ever seen in my life.
Have you heard of Lena Dunham?
Yes.
Yeah, Lena Dunham has written this alleged comedy romance set in London.
It's, it's, you'll hate it.
I mean, actually, I'm pretty sure that Satan must have been involved in the manufacture of this atrocity.
It's just, because it's basically evil.
One of the programs we've become a big fan of, we were big fans of David Mitchell over here, and love his new program called Ludwig, where he is...
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, where he's...
Yeah, he...
Yes, and very agoraphobic, hates to leave the house, and was forced to do it.
So, yeah, wonderful program.
I think you're probably a nicer person than me, Derek.
I I I I just kind of I could see that program trying to charm me with its bumbling charm, and I was just thought, nah, not having it.
Not going for it.
Not falling for David Mitchell's stick again.
Anyway, before we talked about David, what were we talking about?
Names of the Fallen and Angelology and Demonology.
I was going to put something to you.
I take all this stuff very seriously and I am one of those Christians, those rare Christians probably, who does believe that the supernatural stuff is all real.
I have no doubt about this.
And I think that Christians who don't get this stuff really aren't in the game.
Unless you understand that there is an actual God and that he made us and that he sent his son, you know, that unless you believe this stuff., you're just cosplaying, really.
But part of knowing that and thinking that, I do take very seriously what the other side does.
So for example, if you believe as I do in angels and demons and you believe in God, you also recognize that there are the adversaries of God, which we've talked about a bit, these principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places and rulers of the darkness of this world and all that.
And they are clearly capable of being identified.
And it would not at all surprise me if their followers had access to this information from their sources.
Because after all, we've got, you and I have got the Bible and stuff.
And we've got related extra biblical books like the book of Enoch.
And we can infer stuff.
We can piece it together.
We might even be able to refer possibly to saints who've, to, to, to.
religious visionaries I don't know whether you you would count them as as legitimate or not to a degree I think when yeah it's like when Paul was preaching to the church at Berea and And they said, okay, we've heard what you had to say.
Now we're going to consult the scriptures to see if what you're saying lines up.
If what a visionary sees is consistent with scripture, then okay, I think we can accept that as legitimate.
But, for example, there's a genre of Christian literature called Heavenly Tourism.
Yes, I died and went to heaven and I saw this big amusement park there where kids are able to eat cotton candy all day long.
Like, really?
Sounds like Neverland.
It's a bit disturbing.
Yeah, yeah.
And we just did an interview.
Sharon and I are producing a program now called The Bible's Greatest Mysteries.
greatest mysteries where we go into some of the stranger things like archaeological evidence for, for example, the oldest written alphabetic script being Hebrew and actually being traced back to the sons of Joseph.
We just did an interview with a fellow named Sean Tabbett about near-death experiences and he's been researching this and writing about this now for several years.
how we discern the difference between legitimate near-death experiences and what people report back as legitimate versus the heavenly tourism things like, yeah, life is just a big amusement park when you get to the other side.
And Sean is a discerning Bible-believing Christian, and there are things that people see on the other side that are consistent with what we see from scripture.
And I think that the tell is whether the experience changes them.
I've interviewed a fellow who is one that Sean interviewed for the book, who was kind of agnostic until he had a near-death experience and was taken to hell.
He didn't see heaven.
He saw hell.
And when he came back, he was on fire preaching the gospel because he wanted his friends, his colleagues, his co-workers, to, you know, I don't want you to experience what I saw.
So it changed him in a way that has now got him proclaiming openly his faith in Jesus Christ and the fact that, yeah, there is a place where unbelievers are tormented.
The Bible's not very explicit on what that looks like.
But it did change him in a way where he is actually proclaiming Jesus Christ.
He's not proclaiming, hey, whatever you believe is okay, we're all going to get ice cream and cotton candy when we pass through the veil.
There are visionaries who see things I think that are legitimate.
I have no problem with that.
Yes, yeah.
And I think I trust some of the monks, the ones who went out into the desert and things.
I think you can't live on a rock or in a cave contemplating God for that amount of time without achieving a kind of status where you get access to information that I think these people know stuff.
But in the same way, so the point I was going to make was we've got our sources.
But the these ancient families which have worshipped Satan and his and his kind for generations for for centuries, millennia even.
They they go back to the Babylonian mystery religions and there are texts from from there aren't there that They will have studied stuff that we tend not to study because we think of it as bad territory.
But I'm sure that their literature and traditions will have information that Christianity generally doesn't have.
access to.
That's possible.
A lot of these ancient Babylonian texts have been translated and published online by archaeologists and epigraphers.
So there are those texts available to us if we want to look at them, bearing in mind that these spirits are probably lying to the people who are following them.
In the second coming of Saturn, I...
In one of their most ancient cities, a city called Urkesh, which is Tel Mozan in northern Syria, close to the border with Turkey, they found a necromantic ritual pit where they would dig down into the earth some forty feet, this pit.
And according to the texts that have been found, the Hurrian rituals included going into this pit and scribing a magic circle on the floor and perhaps marking it out with flour.
This is also attested in Akkadian texts.
So this is the kind of thing that Wiccans are doing to this day, you know, you make a circle of protection with salt or flour on the floor.
Like, okay, so the demon you're supposed to control is telling you that if you put salt on the floor, you're totally safe.
He's not going to steal your, you know, he's not going to possess you or what.
How do you know this thing's not lying to you?
Like, come on.
So I think we can learn a little bit about what the occultists and the adepts and the new agers believe from reading their texts, bearing in mind that, as John wrote, greater is he that is in you,
meaning believers in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit is in you and he is more powerful than any force these occultists can bring to bear yeah but without without wishing to sell satanism or whatever there's there's no doubt in my mind i don't know whether you agree with me on this that those who do worship
these these powers and do terrible things like sacrifice their firstborn children because that still goes on doesn't it i mean particularly in the world of celebrity the number of rock stars for example, and actors, you look up lost their child.
It's it's a bit it's a bit disturbing.
It's it's well above the actuarial rate for for losing children.
So they're they're basically sacrificing their children to their to their dark gods and getting rewarded for it, right?
I mean, I mean, we obviously we we on team God, team Jesus, we get it get the much better long term deal.
But short term, these people, these gods do have powers, don't they?
They're not they're not sure.
Help us.
Sure.
Absolutely.
And because this is the kind of thing that''s been going on for a long, long time.
Going back to my comments earlier about Leviticus chapter 18 and the Amorites.
This is well known practice among the Amorites going back to the time of Abraham.
So we're talking almost four thousand years ago.
Well known that the Amorites would sacrifice their children.
Is it a sexual practice or is it a sacrificial practice you're talking about that we can't mention?
Well, both actually.
There were sexual practices that involved, you know, close family members and members of the animal kingdom.
But also And that still goes on among the elites, doesn't it?
Oh, I have no doubt.
I have no doubt.
But among, amidst all this., and the prohibitions against consulting with necromancers and mediums to try to make contact with the spirit realm is the prohibition against sacrificing children to Molech.
And again, I will say that in my book The Second Coming of Saturn, I make the case and I think a pretty good case that this entity who led the Genesis Six Rebellion, Shemeaza, is the entity known to the Romans as Saturn, to the Greeks as Chronos, to the Phoenicians as Baalhaman, to the Canaanites as El, to the Philistines as Dagon, to the Hebrews as Molech.
And this is right in the midst of all of these prohibitions.
Don't do these detestable sexual things.
Do not consult with mediums and necromancers and owe yourselves.
and oh yes, don't sacrifice your children to Molech.
Well, this entity Molech, Shemiyaza, even though he is chained in the abyss, I would argue through his demonic minions, remembering that the spirits of the demons are the spirits of the half breed children that Shemiyaza slash Molech created with that rebellion in Genesis six are still active in the world today.
I think Molech, Shemiyaza, Abadon Apollyon, still able to influence things in the world today through these minions the same way a say a mafia boss or a gang leader can influence things on the streets from a prison cell.
You're passing messages back and forth to the faithful who are still out and about.
And as you say, the gods of the Greeks and the Romans, still active in the world today, these fallen angels who are influencing things as well, I think those are the spirits that are condemned in Psalm eighty two, which reads like a courtroom scene in heaven, where God appears in the midst of the divine council and condemns them for ruling unjustly.
That's right.
It's not God in the midst of human princes, because in verse 6 of Psalm 82, he says, Though you are God's, all of you, sons of the Most High, which is a phrase in Hebrew that always, always, always refers to supernatural beings, not humans.
You will die like men and fall like any prince.
Fall like one of the princes.
Exactly.
That is a courtroom scene in heaven.
Do you know that I do a Psalms podcast series as well?
I did not.
i i think you would be the perfect candidate to do psalm 82 with me so So we won't talk about it too much, but but you see, one of my hobbies is learning the psalms.
So after reading the Michael Heiser book, I became a bit of a Heiser junkie.
Yes.
And I'm, I meant to ask you, by the way, I'm very disappointed that I couldn't get to him before he died.
I mean, I wish he'd, wish he'd appeared on my radar earlier.
My suspicion is always with people like this that they've been bumped off.
I mean, I know he died of cancer, but was it, was it, was it, was it likely that he was going to die of cancer?
Or would you think he was cancered?
I don't think he was targeted.
I mean, I think basically it was the Lord saying, your race now is done, so come home, my good and faithful servant.
Early leave pass.
I think so.
And I think, you know, again, we counted Mike as a very, very close friend.
He called me just a couple of weeks before he passed, and I know that he spoke to a couple of other close friends.
The thing that's really remarkable about Mike is that he was a very careful scholar.
He had a PhD in Hebrew language and a master's in Israelite and Egyptian history, he could read the Akkadian and the Sumerian and the Hebrew and the Greek, and he had published papers and peer reviewed journals, and yet he was willing to give of his time with, you know, we had Mike on our podcast going back to two thousand six.
Sharon and I started podcasting in two thousand five, less than six months after the code for syndicating the RSS feeds for podcasting had been developed.
And Mike was one of the first guests that we had on the program and we saw what he was writing.
It's like, suddenly the Old Testament makes sense.
Mike was willing to associate with people like us, like our good friend the late doctor Tom Horne, who published Mike's book Reversing Herman and Mike's commentaries on the book of 1 Enoch.
He was not one of those scholars who just, okay, well, no, I can't.
You're not scholars.
I might tarnish my reputation by associating with you people who are talking about the Nephilim and giants and things like this.
Mike viewed himself as Gandalf amongst Middle Earth.
And he was bringing scholarly rigor to these weird parts of the Bible.
As Mike used to say, if it's in the Bible and it's weird, it's probably important.
And we loved him for that.
He had a wonderfully dry sense of humor.
And again, just being able to count him as among our friends has just been a true blessing.
But no, it's just one of those things.
I think the Lord just said, your race is done.
And Mike worked right up to the end.
As long as he had strength, you see some of the last videos that he recorded where he looked very thin and very frail.
And yet he was still sharp in answering questions from people who are finding in Mike's work answers to these really difficult sections that continue.
can be stumbling blocks for people coming to jesus christ why did he condemn the amorites who lived in canan why do we do this why did Why did we do this?
Why did God do that?
As you said, this idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not Jesus, this is making a resurgence in the 21st century.
Two thousand years after the Marcianite heresy was condemned by the likes of Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, it is making a comeback because people don't understand Mike's work and the idea that yes, there are these other evil intelligences out there.
at work in the spirit realm helps us to make sense of the difficult parts of the Bible.
Yeah, I think the thing I liked about Michael Heiser, as you say, his dry sense of humor, he had a lovely voice.
I loved his intonation.
It was, yeah, he was, what's the word I'm looking for?
It was a sort of, yeah, a dry, dry sense of humor there that he was amused.
He used his scholarship like a weapon.
Yeah.
He wasn't going to suffer fools, but he was going to welcome everyone who was interested and was open-minded.
Is that fair?
Yeah, and I've adopted one of his pet phrases and have attempted to propagate it and continue it.
When someone asks a question that is clearly answered in Scripture or uses something that is clearly answered in Scripture to rationalize away their disbelief, Mike would say, Well, bless their pointy little heads.
And so I and just leave it at that.
You see, I think the other valuable service you did to our cause is that there are some Christians out there, like I call them the trust the plan Christians.
And they found Jesus and that's all they need and it's great and you know they're saved and job done.
But some of us are interested in the intellectual side of Christianity and Christian scholarship and religious tradition and scripture and stuff and we're not satisfied with simply I found Jesus the end.
We need to I want to know everything.
I really do.
And he was great at doing that, which is why I enjoy talking to people like you, because you can help answer the question.
I mean, I think there's there might be stuff for you and I disagree on.
I mean, I I'm not sure that I'm not sure that the Nephilim were killed by the flood.
I think that doesn't it say that there were Nephilim in that time and after?
I think.
It does.
It does.
And also after that, whenever the sons or when the sons of God went into the daughters of men.
And as Mike pointed out, that word translated when in Genesis 6, well, it's one of the verses 1-4, can also be translated whenever, which opens the possibility that there was another incursion into the natural realm by these fallen watcher class entities.
So it's possible that there were other Nephilim after the flood.
There are those who will say that the Anakim were clearly descendants of the giants.
You know, the Hebrew doesn't really make that clear.
The word translated descendant of the giant, for example, in 2 Samuel 21.
when Michael, or Michael, when David and his men have to do away with the last of the Philistine giants, Ishvi Ben-Ov, a descendant of the giant.
The word descendant is Yalid.
There's in the Book of Numbers, the Anakim or descendant of the Nephilim.
The word Yalid does not mean literal genetic descendant.
It means one who is a member of a group into which one has been consecrated or initiated.
So it's possible that these were members of a cult that worship demons, a warrior cult, maybe something like the Viking Berserkers of a thousand years ago.
But the possibility is open either way.
I mean certainly Ag of Bishon, there is some evidence to suggest that Ag was a man of unusual size.
Goliath was certainly larger than normal.
in the length of a qubit.
I mean, you know, my qubit, fingertip to elbow, is 18 inches, but in the time of David, the average Israelite was about 5 foot 3.
So, you know, maybe Goliath was only 8 foot 3 instead of 9 foot 9.
That's still really, really big.
So it's possible he had some Nephilim DNA.
Yeah.
Well, just as a brief digression, are you into the other so-called conspiracy realms or do you just stick to your scriptural stuff?
Oh, my wife and I have been wearing tinfoil hats on the weekend since 2005 so that our listeners don'tt have to.
So you know about obviously, about the Smithsonian Institute, which is obviously working for the forces of darkness.
Yeah.
Collecting all the bodies of giants and destroying them and destroying the evidence.
Yeah, giants buried in America.
Oh yeah, there are there are other places.
There are dozens, if not hundreds of newspaper accounts from the late 19th century here in the US about the bones of giants destroyed by, you know, just carted off in the middle of the night.
In fact, we talked with a fellow on the island of Sardinia back in 2018 who.
who told us and said, no fooling, we found giants' bones here and they were in the local parish.
And then this black vehicle sent by the Vatican pulled up and took it and carted it off to the Vatican.
And Sardinia has got 200 locations, about 200 locations referred to as giants' tombs.
So now we're very, very open to that idea.
And who's the big man during the Second Iraq War?
Were the proper invasion of Iraq.
Oh, Gilgamesh.
really about oil was it it was about it was about retrieving that body from the well um When you read the paper written by Dr. Jörg Fassbinder of Germany, who led the team at Uruk, which was the city that was ruled by Gilgamesh and a couple of generations earlier probably by Nimrod, they didn't actually excavate anything.
They were doing a magnetometric survey.
So they were basically running, you know, as what Tony Robinson would call geophys.
They were doing a search across the ground looking for anomalies in the soil, and they found the outlines of a building in what had been the bed of the Euphrates River, which is consistent with the description of the tomb of Gilgamesh in the Epoch.
Now, if in fact that was the tomb of Gilgamesh, and you're going back five thousand years, in a mud brick tomb that is submerged by the waters of the Euphrates, there would be nothing organic left, not bone, not DNA, nothing.
Even if you could identify that as the tomb of Gilgamesh, there would be nothing there.
So if that was in fact the purpose, I'm afraid that the forces sent to look for Gilgamesh were disappointed.
Well, obviously, I'm going to be very, if you're right, Derek, I'm going to be really disappointed because I love the Gilgamesh's tomb theory.
And so you think the photographs are all fake?
I have not seen photographs of Gilgamesh's tomb, but there have been some.
Have you been to the show?
There have been some videos that have popped up on YouTube, and those are AI generated.
It's a delay.
Yeah, Doctor Fastbinder.
Yeah, I read the paper.
All they did was they found anomalies.
Okay, here's a rectangular building in what had been the bed of the Euphrates.
That's all they did.
They didn't do any excavation.
That's not what they were there for.
I know that they're not lightning, for you tread on my dreams, Derek.
This is one of my I would say, this is one of my favorite.
Look, I know as an author that you've written some very creative stories as well.
But, and I know this would be a great jumping point for a plot, you know?
You know, Sharon, my wife, is a wonderful fiction author who teaches spiritual warfare through fiction that begins with the Jack the Ripper murders.
You know, why the Ripper wasn't caught because he wasn't human, you know, that kind of thing.
But when we're starting to dig into this, it's like, okay, they were after the two.
Even if they had found bones after 5,000 years in a hot, wet, you know, submerged underwater environment, Sharon also has a degree in molecular biology with an emphasis in genetics.
And I asked her about this.
She's like, there would be nothing.
Sorry, there is no genetic material.
Even if they could identify it as the, okay, this is the body of Gilgamesh.
The DNA is a very fragile molecule.
So it's not likely.
Now, I know there's also been a story out there that said, oh, the WikiLeaks showed that there was a request by Hillary Clinton for the location of the buried Nephilim.
That just proves that people have very low reading comprehension these days.
When you actually read the log from the Department of State, U.S. Department of State, that request came in from some other person in 2018 during the Trump administration which was like uh you know six years after Hillary had resigned as Secretary of State to run against Trump in 2016.
So no, there was not a request from Hillary Clinton asking for where Gilgamesh was buried or the Nephilim.
I'm still going to cling on to the hope that you are wrong, Derek.
Well, I know.
That's just what you want us to think.
I think, yes, we can certainly agree that Hillary Clinton is next level evil, can we not?
Oh, absolutely, yeah.
I mean, just like, I mean, Satan loves her.
I think he, do you want to do the Psalm 82 podcast with me?
I would be honored to do it.
I would be honored to do it.
Because then we get to do the deep dive into that particular arrangement.
And I can ask you lots of questions, like, for example, why is God so cozy with these fallen angels?
Well, why is he surprised that they're doing bad things?
Yeah, well, again, Sharon has addressed a lot of this.
She's already got eight books in her series.
And she describes it as a test and a trial.
I mean, God knowing the end from the beginning knew that they would rebel, and yet God has a divine counsel.
We see it in action in the Bible, first Kings twenty two, where God asks his court, essentially, how will we deceive King Ahab?
So he goes into battle against the Syrians and then falls in battle, and one spirit says one thing and another spirit says another, and then finally one says, I'll be a lying spirit in the mouth of Ahab's prophets.
Well, did God not know that this spirit was going to say that?
Of course he knew.
God created them just like he created us for his pleasure.
He desires family.
And again, that comes back to Michael Heiser.
That's what he was looking for.
For his own pleasure, he has created us and for the same reason that we as humans have children.
We know at some point they're going to try to get away with stuff and lie to us about it, but we love them anyway.
And we have them because it brings us pleasure.
And so I think that's where God is at and why he allowed these angels to go and do what he knew they were going to do anyway.
created them with free will just like us.
My podcast tends to last about an hour and a half.
So if you've got another 20 minutes, a few more things I want to ask you but I'm unfortunately I've got a weak bladder and can I I'm dying for a piece so can I just come back okay you can do that I was going to say sadly sadly I'm going to have to run too here pretty quick because we've got things okay well what should we do do ten more minutes if if we can do that uh yeah five or ten minutes and because we've got to take our dogs to groomers today and I don't want to be wriggling in my chair for those ten minutes yeah I'll come back home I
can see that we need to do a whole other podcast because, for example, we haven't done Revelation, we haven't done anything of that stuff, and I wanted to find out from you what's going to happen at the end and where we're headed, but that we're just at the beginning at the moment.
We're talking about the fall.
So is it your contention that Saturn, Baal, Moloch, Molech, whatever you want to call him, they're all the same person?
Well, I would say that Baal is Satan or Baal, just so scholars know that I know how to say it.
They're but but yes.
It's not the correct way.
Well, that's how we Americans say it, but Baal is actually the correct name with a glottal stop in between the two syllables.
You say Isaiah as well.
Yeah, I mean, that's a weird thing Americans do.
Well, you know, and on the other hand, you use the extraneous you in words like color and favor, so, you know, it's a trick.
Yeah.
How do you say Jesus?
Do you say Jesus?
Only in Texas and New Mexico.
Saturn, Chronos, Baal Haman, who is not the same as Baal or the storm god, how do you say that?
No, he is not.
Okay.
Yeah.
Baalhaman is the equivalent of Kronos and Saturn.
This is well known to the classical writers.
But, you know, argue that, yes, he is Molech, he is Dagon, he is El of the Canaanites, Milcom, the abomination of the Ammonites, the same entity.
And in fact, I would argue that that entity is behind a lot of the violence that has taken place over the land of Israel for the last century.
Because all of this, and we can talk about this in another program when we get into the book of Revelation, is related to a term that comes from the book of Isasaiah, the Mount of Assembly or Mount of the Congregation, This was the goal of that rebel Shemeaza, Hal, Lucifer, in Isaiah fourteen, wanted to establish his Mount of Assembly or Mount of the Congregation in the far reaches of the north.
In Hebrew, that phrase Mount of the Congregation or Mount of the Assembly is Har Moed.
And when John transliterated that from Hebrew into Greek in the book of Revelation, it came out as Armageddon.
So where is God's Mount of Assembly?
What is the point of contention here?
That is Zion, that is Jerusalem, that is the Temple Mount.
The final battle, our Mageddon, is not at Megiddo.
It is at Jerusalem.
The world comes to war at Jerusalem, as we see in Joel chapter 2, Zechariah chapter 12.
That's what John was writing about in the book of Revelation.
Have we frozen there?
You're not speaking anymore, are you?
No, some of your, sometimes the line is terrible.
Yeah, I want to do the full Armageddon stuff next time.
But just, do you have any idea of the chronology?
When did, when God created man, Adam and Eve, how soon before that was the rebellion in heaven or was that afterwards?
We...
The Bible is not explicit in that, and we would actually argue that there was a prior rebellion of chaos.
For example, in the book of Genesis, where it said, the earth was formless and void.
The translation might more properly be rendered, the earth became or was made formless and void.
When God's spirit hovers over the deep, that word deep is to home in Hebrew, and that's a cognate for the Sumerian word tiamat.
word Tiamat, which was their chaos dragon, in other words, the equivalent of Leviathan in the Bible.
So there was probably a rebellion even before God created the universe and created earth suitable for human habitation.
How soon after Adam and Eve were created did the fall take place?
We don't know.
There's been a lot of speculation over that over the last two thousand years and honestly don't know.
So you think there was a world before?
before that God destroyed and then did take to?
Yeah.
Yeah.
In fact, we participated in a documentary on that called Before Genesis.
And what happened to the earth prior?
Was there an angelic civilization that was destroyed?
prior to the creation of Adam and Eve.
It's entirely possible.
I mean, this is not a theological hill we'll die on, but it is certainly possible based on what's available to us in the book of Genesis.
There's some evidence from Isaiah and Jeremiah suggesting that the earth was not made formless and void, but it became such.
But again, this is not something that's explicit in the Bible, so it's not something we're going to say, okay, yeah, I'm going to defend this one to the death.
It's like, that's possibility.
I find that quite frightening.
I don't find that very reassuring because I thought God made us in his image.
I don't like the know though that it was a human prototype.
Yes, we are made as his image bearers on earth.
And because I think here's the reassuring bit about this.
Yes, God had to go to some lengths to protect humanity as his moral agents, if you will, his imagers on earth, hence the flood of Noah, hence his direct intervention at Babel, which was an attempt by people to reconnect with the old gods who were no longer walking on the earth.
And then hence, of course, the crucifixion and the resurrection to bring us back into the divine council, like the prodigal son.
That parable really is about us being restored to the divine family.
It's not necessarily about not entirely about forgiveness.
It's about restoring humanity to God's divine counsel, his family, his royal family.
God has gone to some great lengths to protect us.
He created us for this natural realm.
The fallen angels attempted to intervene and take this dominion away from us.
That's why Jude writes that these angels who are now confined in chains in gloomy darkness kept not their first estate.
They left their proper dwelling.
They were created for the unseen realm.
They intruded on the natural realm.
And God said, nope, that's not happening.
That's why they're chained up in the abyss.
God has protected us after creating us for this dominion.
Right.
And that's why the angels got, but some of the angels got crossed.
Because God made us and they didn't like it.
Yeah.
Do you think?
I think so.
I mean, you see that hinted at in that parable of the prodigal son, the elder brother who's upset when God, when the father.
welcomes the younger brother back, put the cloak on him, give him the signet ring, kill the fatted calf, let's prepare a feast.
And the elder brother is like, hey, what about me?
I've been here the whole time.
And God and the father is like, hey, you know, you've got your inheritance.
But he was lost and now he's found.
You know, he's welcome, we welcome him back into the family.
So I think the elder brother represents.
the elder brothers, if you will, in the spirit realm, the angelic realm, the faithful angels who have stayed with God looking at us, these stupid monkeys who've been off rolling in the pig the slop and when you think about it the swine herd that the younger brother was serving the pig being a forbidden unclean animal in Jewish you know the Jewish religion that would represent Satan or the fallen realm we've been you know
rolling around in this mess left by these unclean animals and yet and yet the father is willing to welcome us back home to clean us off and restore us to our place in the family Yes that would explain the kind of mystery of that couplet in Psalm eight where it says he made him lower than the angels to crown him with glory and worship.
And you kind of think, well, if he's lower than the angels, why is he telling us he's going to crown him with glory and worship?
So that's it, basically.
Yeah, and junior and yet senior.
Yeah.
And that is quoted in the book of Hebrews in relation to in regards to Jesus himself, made him for a time a little lower than the angels.
But yes, and the angels are meant to serve us in the book of Hebrews.
So yeah, it is interesting.
You look at that parable in of the wicked tenants, the ones who are, you know, lease out a vineyard that's planted by a landowner living in a far country, he builds a wall around it and puts a tower on it and then leases it out and the tenants, instead of giving up the produce of the vineyard, beat the men who are sent to collect.
And then when the son of the owner comes, they say, Ah, if we kill him, we'll get his inheritance.
Well, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, the Levites who were listening to Jesus tell this perceived that he was speaking to the principalities and powers behind them Because they thought, these fallen angels, demons, that if they killed the Son, they would inherit the vineyard, the vineyard being earth.
And of course, when Jesus said, but what's going to happen when they kill the Son?
Well, they'll be destroyed.
Yeah, exactly.
And yet, they didn't get it, as Paul writes in 1 Corinthians, was it 1 Corinthians 2?
Yeah, 1 Corinthians 2 beginning at verse 6.
If they had understood the mystery being revealed through the prophets and the apostles, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory, but they couldn't help themselves.
And of course, when he comes back, their destruction will be at hand.
They fell into the trap.
I remember Michael Heiser saying in the unseen realm, he talks about this, that there are all these clues offered in the Old Testament, which is of course prophetic.
But the detail that is not disclosed until afterwards is that instead of being a king who's going to kind of rule over the world and do all the things people like Judas were expecting Jesus to do.
He instead comes back as a, allows himself to be martyred.
And that was, that was the, the cunning, God's cunning plan.
Exactly, yes.
Yeah.
Derek, it's been great.
I don't know what you've got to do, but you obviously, it's very important.
I don't want to interrupt your day any more.
Tell us where we can read your stuff and find you.
And everything is linked at our website, which is gilberthouse dot org gilberthouse dot org.
Our books are available in the UK at amazon dot co dot UK in the UK.
in paperback, Kindle and audible format.
That's great.
What a nice job you've got.
And how nice to be able to work with your wife on these projects.
She is my best friend.
Yeah, that's good.
So, Derek, look, we'll definitely do.
I'll book you, shall I, for Psalm 82.
It sounds like, I mean, you're the next best thing, aren't you, if you knew Michael and you stuck?
You must have thoughts about all this and you must be familiar with the psalms quite well.
That one and there are a number of others that are right there, like Psalm 89 and a bunch of others that make reference to this unseen realm.
So yeah, there's more there in the Bible than we were taught as kids.
Yes, exactly.
This is the thing.
There's all these the story you just mentioned, the parable, which makes it's like you read it and you think, whoa, what's that about?
But when you talk about it in the context of demons and fallen angels and et cetera, it makes absolute sense.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Everybody else, apart from Derek, if you've, because obviously you're not going to be watching this Derek, but everyone else will.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, and of course you have, do, first of all, subscribe.
Even if you're going to become a nonpaying subscriber, definitely do that.
But do consider, please, becoming a paid subscriber.
I'm going to start offering a better deal to paid subscribers.
You get early access, but you deserve a reward for being lovely and generous.
And anyway, so please consider becoming a paid subscriber on Substack, et cetera.
etc um support my sponsors and um what else oh yeah you can buy me a coffee if you don't want to do anything else just just and just say hi and i might reply if i'm if i'm not sort of distracted by stuff um thank you again derek gilbert that was after 15 years it was well worth the wait and we'll we'll make the gap shorter next time sounds good god bless you sir thank you thank you very much That was great.
You're not uploaded yet.
Global warming is a massive con.
There was no evidence whatsoever that man-made climate change is a problem, that it's going to kill us, that we need to amend our lifestyle in order to deal with it.
It's a non-existent problem.
But how do you explain this stuff to your normy friends?
Well, I've just brought out the revised edition of my 2012 classic book, Watermelons, which captures the story of how some really nasty people decided to invent the global warming scare in order to fleece you to take away your freedoms to take away your land it's a shocking story.
I wrote it, as I say, in 2011 actually, the first edition came out.
And it's a snapshot of a particular era, the era when the people behind the climate change scan got caught red-handed, tinkering with the data, torturing till it screamed in a scandal that I helped christen.
So I give you the background to the skull juggery that went on in these seats of learning where these supposed experts were informing us.
We've got to act now.
I rumbled there.
their scam.
I then asked the question, okay, if it is a scam, who's doing this and why?
It's a good story.
I've kept the original book pretty much as is, but I've written two new chapters, one at the beginning and one at the end, explaining how it's even worse than we thought.
