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Nov. 9, 2024 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole

01:53:52

Abi Roberts

James catches up with his old friend, comedian Abi Roberts. It goes really well in the first half and they bond over the usual topics - Russian literature, Christianity, etc. But then James brings up the awkward subject of the Manchester Arena bombing and they have a tiff, which you’ll enjoy if you like tiffs…Abi & Bob Moran’s new book, ‘We the people’ is available to purchase here:https://www.lulu.com/shop/abi-roberts-and-bob-moran/we-the-people/hardcover/product-m2qw4we.html↓ ↓ ↓Here is the link for this week’s product https://nutrahealth365.com/product/libido-boost/ ↓ ↓ ↓ Buy James a Coffee at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/jamesdelingpole The official website of James Delingpole:https://jamesdelingpole.co.uk x

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	Welcome to the Dellingpod with me James Dellingpole.
	And I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest, but she's making eyes at me.
	But before I introduce her, a quick word from one of our lovely, delightful sponsors.
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	Good luck, chaps and chappesses.
	Enjoy.
	Welcome back to the Delling Pod.
	Abby, you're looking fantastic.
	Well, thank you so much.
	You scrub up nicely.
	What do I owe you?
	I haven't scrubbed.
	In fact, I'm feeling rather ashamed.
	I did debate whether I had time to shave, and I thought, Abby will forgive me, because she quite likes that sort of...
	Alain Delors look that I've always had.
	I should have shaved as well, but there's a little bit of...
	Stop that.
	I haven't seen you for a while.
	I know.
	It's been a long...
	It's, yeah, been a long old time.
	Well, I've just been doing all sorts.
	In fact, maybe as we've just stopped, you know, let's get into it, what I have been up to, as well as gigs and all the rest of it.
	Is it anything to do with this?
	Yes.
	Yes, that's it!
	Because you know what we're like?
	We'll be like, do an hour and then we'll sort of go, shit!
	Isn't there a book we're meant to be talking about?
	That's certainly me.
	That is and me.
	We the people.
	That's why we get on.
	We the people.
	Letters from Dystopia, which I released at the end of 2022 because I asked listeners to my podcast in early 2022 to send me their experiences of the shit show.
	And I was inundated and then released a PDF, very basic PDF. You know, I thought, well, it's out there.
	And then...
	Fast forward to this year, I released the book, and this is the book of what truly happened to people, not the fabricated nonsense that we hear.
	Do you know what I liked about that?
	I didn't even have to ask you to tell me about the book.
	You just went like a pro.
	Like a pro.
	It's almost like I've planned part of it.
	Before I came on!
	Because, you know something, I did something with someone else the other day, and I literally went, yes, anyway, so we've got this book and the letters, and someone said, but people don't know the history.
	They don't know you've got a podcast.
	They don't know that you ask people to write in with their stuff.
	So it's kind of, I'm just, I'm setting the scene a little bit.
	You know, I'm a bit more prepared than I was, frankly, the other day.
	You are being...
	For you, because I'm on the proper...
	I'm on the Delling pod.
	I don't want to...
	You're being quite American.
	I know, sorry.
	In a good way, I might say.
	In a good way.
	The Americans are so much better than we are at self-promotion.
	It's like, yeah, I've got this...
	I wrote this book.
	I've forgotten the title.
	Yeah, we can talk about it later on.
	Yes, I can't remember what year it was.
	My website.
	Here's my website address.
	Yes.
	And it's all very, yeah, my late husband Terry always said to me, do a bit of, what was it, he said, failure to prepare is preparation to fail.
	And I thought, God, why do I very often forget that?
	And I think, isn't it, it's getting into the habit though, isn't it, of sort of knowing...
	Vaguely what you're going to talk about, because otherwise...
	Except, Abby, you've just kind of hinted that my entire output is a failure, because, as you know, lack of preparation is my style.
	It's how I run.
	It's my style, too.
	Look, when I do gigs, I've just started gigging again.
	After a long time of sort of like dithering about.
	And I am very much, I'm not scripted.
	I'll have a few jokes where I'll go, I know what's happening.
	But largely, it'll be what happens on the night happens on the night.
	And sometimes that's magic and sometimes it's, you go, oh, okay, that was a gig.
	But I like the risk, James.
	I like the...
	Slightly...
	And also, after the last four years, frankly, you know, it could be worse.
	That's very brave.
	Yeah.
	I'm all up for ad-libbing as long as nobody thinks that I'm doing a comedy set.
	But if someone were to, if I had to go on a stage and somebody was saying, and you get the bloke who comes on before, don't you?
	Like Dominic Frisbee or somebody.
	The compere, yeah.
	Or Dick.
	Oh, Dick.
	Oh, lovely Dick.
	And they sell you as this kind of funny thing.
	And people are sitting there going, okay, you've got, what, 30 seconds to make me laugh.
	And if not, you may as well just leave now.
	I couldn't cope with that pressure.
	It's a weird...
	I mean, especially that I've found that I've morphed from club comedian, you know, where it's Lenny Bruce time where you've got to do the gag rate, it's got to be pretty high, to morphing into, especially when it's longer, like I'm doing an app, planning an hour show, which I've just started sort of working on and I'll be touring next year.
	But that's...
	It's going to have stuff in it which is not going to be a laugh a minute because there is stuff that's happened, you know, as we know recently, but it is quite difficult to make hilarious.
	You mean it's not funny because it's true?
	Exactly.
	Not funny because it's true.
	And it is difficult to make democide, I find.
	You know, it's difficult to put gags in about people who've, you know, been forced to be injected with...
	Well, it's interesting you say that.
	I think my strategy has almost been it's so dark that you've got to laugh.
	Because you could very easily...
	Because look, the world is run by Satanists who want to kill us, and those of us that don't kill, they will enslave and deprive of all the joys.
	Oh, and by the way, they're going to destroy the planet while they're at it, while pretending that they're worried about global warming.
	If you present it like that, and it's perfectly true, then one might be inclined to feel a bit down.
	But it's so extreme and so weird what's happening.
	Particularly if you haven't known this for a long time, which I haven't done it, and you have either.
	No, no.
	It's like suddenly discovering that water's wet.
	You think, oh gosh, I should really have known that.
	But you know what it is?
	I think, James, you're right, that taking the piss, doing the Mel Brooks stuff, very much helps.
	And obviously, as you know, I do do that a lot.
	But it's getting the balance right.
	So I did a gig in Swansea the other night, Saturday night, at the lovely Cinema& Co.
	You know, a very awake lady who's actually stayed open during the lockdown.
	I like her.
	And, um, at the end, I talked about We the People, the book, and, um, audience members held up their copies.
	They sort of held them up like this.
	And it was a sort of, it was, it, honestly, it, I still get sort of goosebumps thinking about it.
	And they sort of said, can you sign, you know, could you just assign the book?
	And it was, that's what I mean.
	It's getting the balance right.
	Because then if I'd gone...
	Oh, books!
	What are they like?
	Oh, writing a book.
	It would have totally undercut the moment.
	Even though I might have been tempted to be self-deprecating, sometimes you just, like the George Carlin thing, you've just got to go for it and be quite angry about stuff.
	I was thinking that you now know what it's like to be Taylor Swift when, at his concerts, they put up their iPhones.
	And the whole stadium is filled with...
	I felt just like Taylor Swift.
	Even though you're a bloke.
	Not you, I don't mean.
	The other one.
	Hello, my name's Tyler.
	All right, darling.
	Yeah, I thought it was uncanny, in fact, because we're so similar.
	But yeah, it was just a moment, put it that way, that didn't really have anything to do with gags or taking the piss out of the trans activists or whatever, you know?
	Well, I was thinking, actually, one of the things that makes it much easier going on a platform in front of a big audience is...
	If you're feeling the love beforehand, if they aren't going, right, impress me, comedian, or impress me, public speaker, if already they're kind of on side with most of the art, that must have been a change in your experience of your career.
	You were at the sharp end in the clubs.
	You know, you didn't know what the audience were, whether they were Larry or whether they were, well, I was going to say a hen party, of course they'd be Larry or whatever.
	But now you know, people who come and see you, I imagine, mostly are on board with the Abbey programme already.
	Yeah, they're on board.
	Although, I did do a gig in Southampton with Andrew Lawrence, and it was really interesting because there weren't a lot of them...
	It's like navigating such a huge thing, topic, that you do have to sort of dance around things sometimes and think, actually, this is more like just a normal club gig.
	So it's not just people coming to see me and going, right, yes, we're on board with it all, which is very strange.
	Well, so...
	Yes, Andrew Lawrence.
	There are some comedians who seem to straddle the divide or aren't quite as far down the rabbit hole as we are.
	Would Andrew Lawrence be one of those?
	I would say, yes, you're exactly right.
	He's actually been quite sensible in many ways.
	And I've been thinking about this, actually, James.
	I know what you think.
	But I have, as you know, pulled the pin out of the grenade and thrown it in, sometimes at people who may have helped my career later on.
	LAUGHTER Do I give a shit?
	No, not really, because it was all worth it.
	But I think some people play the game better.
	I'm not taking anything away from Andrew Lawrence or any others, but it's just a fact.
	Some people do look at it and go, hmm, would it be wise to call Andrew Doyle a cunt if I'm not talking about the vaccines?
	Probably not.
	But you did.
	Sorry, all your lovely viewers and listeners who are saying, who is this woman?
	We're expecting some highfalutin discussion about Somerset Maugham.
	We can talk about Somerset Maugham.
	I'm quite a fan of Somerset Maugham.
	No, I know that.
	I know that.
	Oh, no, let's not, James, because I've barely read any.
	As you know, I'm partially illiterate.
	Yeah, but you can speak Russian.
	Eh?
	You can speak Russian, though.
	I speak Russian.
	Actually, I want to ask you, are you still pursuing your Russian?
	No.
	Do you know what?
	I'll tell you why.
	I suddenly fell in...
	Well, this is my main excuse.
	I suddenly fell in massive hate with my iPhone.
	I found that I could...
	This could be just my paranormal, although I don't think so.
	I could really feel the...
	You know, when you've got an iPhone, it acts as a kind of receiver for all the kind of EMF shit that...
	I could feel my sort of left arm particularly tingling with the...
	The long and short of it is I try to use my iPhone as little as possible, even though, of course, the system, everything from the workout program that my...
	My fitness trainer gives me to things like Duolingo.
	They all require you, or Waze, the Israeli-owned, you know, spying, but also using a map.
	Surveillance, yeah, yeah.
	They want you addicted to your Lloyd's Bank account.
	You can't, you know, all this.
	So they want you to use your iPhone, and I realise that your iPhone is a trap, and And so that was the excuse I used.
	I mean, it could be that I just found the Cyrillic alphabet too hard to grapple with and the pronunciation.
	I don't have as good an ear as my children do for foreign languages, unfortunately.
	Yeah, but I mean, don't beat yourself up because I went back to having lessons Purely, mainly because I could have asked Russians, I could have just got into conversation with Russians, because I was quite rusty, but then I thought to myself, it's not really fair asking Russians to, you know, look at a bit of Russian literature, and then...
	You know, translate it because then you're kind of, you know, you know, they've got other stuff to do.
	But I tell you what I did do, and I feel quite proud of this.
	I do, you know, opposite the House of Commons, not far from where I live, actually, there's the Wall of Hearts, which is, you know, the COVID, the National COVID Memorial War.
	I walk along there and I do accost tourists sometimes and whisper in their ear, it's all propaganda.
	It's just something I like to do, James.
	It's one of my hobbies.
	That's no...
	I would be doing that if I were there as well.
	Yes, I would be going along together.
	I would be seeking every way to engage them and subvert them.
	Yeah, and I met some, there were some Russians who were looking at the wall and then they were sort of looking at the House of Commons, you know, sort of across the river.
	So I said: "Stress it, доброе утро." "Izvinite, пожалуйста, но эти люди туда, они совершили преступления против человечества." Which is, see those people over there in that building, they've committed crimes against humanity.
	And they went: "Oh, спасибо!" I was like: "Don't you?" which has been, thanks, bye.
	But I thought...
	Who knew that my Russian could come in handy?
	I've got very broken Italian, and I'll sometimes say to people, eh, questo è edificio, uomini, whatever it is.
	I can't remember the Italian for committed crimes against humanity.
	Something like, oh, I can't remember, something, crimini, um...
	Something or other.
	But, you know, it's all very...
	Yeah, it's not as good as the Russian.
	But I do quite enjoy that.
	I do quite enjoy...
	Yeah.
	I thank you for that burst of Russian.
	I think that that's the other...
	The thing that you don't get from Duolingo, you don't get the conversation.
	You really need a Russian person to have conversations with.
	Yeah, so like I said, don't feel bad about it, because the Cyrillic alphabet took me quite a while to get my head around.
	I was like, I don't even...
	Even now I'm thinking, oh, where's the letter on the keyboard?
	So it takes time, and also it does help to be round a Russian person.
	You know, it does definitely help.
	I might...
	I might well go back to it, go back to it.
	I then moved on from Russian to Spanish because I went to Colombia and then found myself in this remote camp on the top of a mountain.
	And who should be sitting round the far side with me but a Russian?
	So it wasn't my Spanish I needed to practice, but my since-forgotten Russian.
	There we are.
	You were sitting next to the wrong nationality.
	Why couldn't you speak Spanish?
	But it is a weird thing.
	But it's not something that you just...
	I don't forget as well, I learnt Russian quite early on.
	So it's all kind of in my brain.
	But I did get very rusty, James.
	I was embarrassed.
	I thought...
	I hope I don't meet Alex Creel, and then he suddenly goes, oh, let's, you know, let's have a conversation, because I'd be sort of thinking, shit, actually, maybe not.
	But it is a confidence thing as well, I think, with the language as well, being confident in it.
	I have to say, Spanish is easier than Russian.
	It is.
	Except...
	But I can't speak Spanish.
	Oh, okay.
	No, I can't.
	The thing about...
	But the interesting thing about Spanish is even though Spanish was the language that the thick kids used to be given to learn at school because it was easier than French.
	Did you notice that?
	I don't know whether you had a similar system.
	Oh, yes, yes.
	Definitely.
	But there are certain words in Spanish that you cannot guess.
	For example, hermanos.
	Hermanos.
	Brothers.
	Brothers.
	Oh, yes.
	You can't work out, well, well...
	French is frere.
	You don't get from frere to hermanos.
	Fraternity, frere fraternity.
	Where does hermanos come from then?
	I think some of these words may be borrowed from Arabic.
	I don't know whether that's one example of it.
	So, in Italian...
	Beer is beerer.
	That's obvious, you know.
	But in Spanish, it's cerveza.
	And that is, I think, an Arabic word, even though you wouldn't expect to be a word for beer in Arabic because they're teetotal, sort of, more or less.
	But I think that's the case.
	Whereas Italian, you know, what's the Italian word for train?
	Trainee, isn't it?
	Treno.
	I think it's treno or something like that.
	Treno.
	Treno.
	Exactly.
	It's quite kind of like, oh, okay.
	Yeah, it makes much more sense to us.
	But the Russian, I agree.
	What's the Italian word for spaghetti?
	Spaghetti.
	Spaghetti.
	Si.
	Pasta.
	Pizza.
	Pizza.
	Exactly.
	It's all lovely foodstuffs.
	Yes.
	But just going back to your book, I'm very glad that you have...
	I think that we have been encouraged to memory whole what the insanity that happened in that period where, for example, police drones were following people, taking walks in the Peak District...
	Yeah.
	And they sent police drones, presumably financed by the taxpayer.
	Yes.
	To what end?
	And all the humiliation one had to go through, just popping into one supermarket and following the...
	Or rather, in my case, not following the arrows.
	And then getting shouted at by...
	By a job's worth.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Like being in 1930s Germany, I would imagine.
	Could I prevail on you, James, to read one of the letters?
	A very short one.
	No, do that.
	Would that be all right?
	Just to give people a bit of a flavour.
	Flavour, flavour.
	Not in a rap.
	Not in a P. Diddy.
	Definitely not in a rap way.
	Definitely not in a F-L-A-V-A way.
	Oh, honestly, how did people not see that that was coming?
	We can talk about that.
	We'll talk about that.
	OK, this is from Catherine.
	Lovely listener.
	Catherine, hello.
	I'm definitely watching because she loves you.
	Hi, Abby.
	I hope you don't mind me writing to you for a little rant.
	I was very grateful to you for reading my testimony back in May and felt that you and the Substack family will understand why I'm so angry at what has happened to my poor dad.
	Since my mum's death in 2020, my dad has been existing rather than living.
	He spends his days wandering around shops or on the train going to some other town just trying to escape the loneliness he feels without the love of his life.
	When he's at home, he sits with Mum's ashes and talks to her about anything and everything.
	Mum and Dad had the most wonderful marriage, and I was incredibly lucky to have had a fantastic childhood with the best parents a child could have.
	As an adult, they were always there to support me, my family, my brothers, their grandchildren, their friends, and anyone else who needed support, either practically or emotionally.
	Just good, decent people.
	For as long as I can remember, my dad has volunteered for numerous charities, including Victim Support, Barnardo's, Mencap, The Samaritans, and even set up a soup kitchen for the homeless.
	Doing all of this alongside working full-time as a bricklayer, then later as a building surveyor, he continued to volunteer throughout retirement until he started to have some health issues and problems with his heart.
	For a while now, dad has been talking about his need to do something more.
	He said he should be doing more to help people, as if he hasn't done enough.
	My Dad is 92 years old.
	Yesterday, he had an interview at the local hospice.
	The volunteer coordinator was very keen to have him on board.
	He told Dad that they are desperate for help and there would definitely be a role for him.
	After a lovely chat and a warm handshake, the coordinator said, you have had all of your COVID vaccinations, haven't you?
	To which dad replied, no, and I've never had COVID. He was then told that he wouldn't be able to volunteer.
	Unless he'd been jabbed.
	Poor Dad is heartbroken.
	I am furious.
	I don't think I have the right words to articulate my feelings of rage.
	Dad even offered to wash dishes in the kitchen so he wouldn't come into contact with any of the patients, but apparently their policy won't allow it.
	I'm fuming, Abby.
	I really want to go down to the hospice and speak to someone about their ridiculous policies, but my Dad wants me to leave it.
	How am I supposed to lift his spirits again, as now he feels so worthless?
	What a messed up world we live in.
	Love you, Abs.
	Catherine.
	Wanted to volunteer at 92 years old.
	Was told he couldn't.
	And...
	The mum, do we know whether she'd had the death jab?
	I'm not sure.
	I don't think she had.
	I'm not 100% sure.
	Because this is 2022.
	This is being written.
	But yeah, you're right.
	I don't actually know whether the mum had had the...
	But that's the inhumanity, James.
	A man who wanted to help his fellow human beings and told...
	That's the disconnect.
	I could never understand.
	Literally, like, I don't know, turning Christ away from coming into hospital.
	No, sorry, you're not welcome here.
	Yeah, yeah.
	We all experienced, not on quite that extreme level, that sort of more than my job's worth, follow the rules, don't you know this is a pandemic on.
	Yeah.
	All this stuff.
	I'll tell you what worries me about this.
	So you've got a collection of really moving letters from people from all walks of life who suffered health problems or their relatives did.
	Their lives have been ruined by government fiat.
	The institution that they trusted to protect them was actually instrumental in their deaths or their immiseration.
	And this is still going on.
	And heads have not rolled.
	And heads will never roll either.
	They're just the bastards have got away with it and happened across the world.
	So there's no.
	It's everywhere.
	But the bastards who planned this were, whether by accident or design, so arranged it that only a relatively small percentage of the population experienced death or life-changing injuries.
	Enough for it to show up on the statistics, but not so much that everyone...
	If they'd pushed it a bit harder, it would have been pitchforks time, and we wouldn't be in the state we are now, where you and I and our listeners are looking around thinking, why have people still not woken up?
	How can they not see?
	And the answer is that there aren't enough people who've had their legs chopped off because of blood clots and they still think the people who did die died of COVID. Have you noticed as well,
	even in the MSM, and I said to someone, I had to explain, well that sounds a bit patronising, but you know, I don't think people quite understand how propaganda works, which is that you drip little bits of truth into lies, you know...
	Yeah, exactly.
	And that's sort of, I always think of your dog shit, tiny bit of dog shit in the yogurt.
	Or I suppose actually it would be the reverse, wouldn't it?
	It would be a bit of yogurt in the dog shit.
	Because they'll drop little stories of vaccine injury and death and sort of go, oh, look at this.
	But it's only, you know, it's only one or two people.
	So that's how they get away with it, isn't it?
	It's sort of suppressing the ball under the water.
	You know, like in Prisoner, the prisoner, you know, where it's like the ball is under the sea.
	It's extremely rare, as I understand it, from the newspapers.
	Extremely rare.
	Extremely rare, yes.
	And it is just, I just, you know, I look around and I'm sure you're the same, James, and just sort of think, good grief, are we, how are we going to reconcile all of this violence?
	Eventually, so people feel, I suppose, that it's worth carrying on in this world.
	Well, worth, you know, being in this realm.
	Well, as you know, being a Christian, despair is a sin.
	Yeah.
	It's not one of the seven deadly sins in it, I think.
	But it's considered not to be a good thing.
	So our duty is not to despair because the battle has already been won.
	The bad guys have lost.
	It's just that unfortunately...
	I mean, you get this.
	Have you read Revelation recently?
	Yeah.
	I'm...
	Have I? What do you think?
	James, I am terrible.
	I'm a terrible Christian.
	Look, I've barely go to church.
	Yeah, we all are.
	Well, I... It's funny, because I'm a stay-at-home, have-time-in-the-morning-with-God-with-Christ person, not...
	I think it's because I'm Russian Orthodox, so I'm still having issues with being that, reconnecting with it in the sort of where I am at the moment.
	It's difficult to explain, but I'm still working my way through that, is the answer to the question.
	Sorry, so I'm not, no, I don't read Revelation.
	I haven't recently.
	It's just, it's really trippy.
	Yeah.
	It's a good read.
	Yeah.
	But is it terrifying though?
	Are people going to read it and lose even more hope?
	That's what I worry about.
	Well, it doesn't suggest that it's all roses between now and the end.
	It suggests that there may be some bad bits.
	Yeah.
	It could be some bad shit going down.
	When the horses are wading up to their necks in blood, you know, that kind of thing.
	And you think, oh, that's quite a lot of blood.
	That's quite a lot of blood.
	You know, horses are quite high.
	Quite a lot of blood and horses.
	So, yeah, I was going to ask you about that.
	So you became orthodox.
	You were baptised into the...
	Or that it's just by a kind of hero priest who later got murdered.
	Yes, by Father Alexander Main.
	And in fact, I've got a book.
	If I lent Bob, I say lent, I gave Bob a book.
	You know when it's a special book and you're going to go, Bob Moran I'm talking about, in case people are watching going, well, just Bob the Builder.
	Bob Moran.
	A book about prayer, which is, I think it's, oh God, I think it's called something...
	Your inner steps towards God is the name of the book that he wrote, Father Alexander.
	So Bob's got a copy of that.
	But this is what I'm reading at the moment.
	I thoroughly recommend it.
	I don't know if you can see that.
	Is that back to front?
	No, it comes up.
	It comes up.
	It's honestly, James, it's wonderful.
	And that's Father Alexander.
	That's the man that baptised me.
	And he...
	Yeah, so I was an atheist for...
	I think I said...
	I think we've chatted before on the pod.
	An atheist for 20 years.
	Parents, you know, cultural Christian.
	And then went to Moscow to study at the Conservatoire and learn and speak, you know, do my Russian and stuff.
	And then met this priest who was the family priest...
	At Novaya Direvnia, which is where his parish was, and then I saw him give a speech in Moscow.
	You know, loads of people were in there.
	People used to come and write questions on bits of paper and put them in a little bucket for the intermediary to give Father Alexander.
	And then not long afterwards, I think it was around about March, I'd been there a few months, I said to the family I was living with, I want to be baptised into the Orthodox Church.
	And they were delighted.
	I mean, they were sort of...
	Well, they weren't even that surprised.
	I think they were just, oh, well, okay, that's the normal, you know, what happens to people when they come to Moscow.
	Because it does seduce you, James.
	Have you ever been?
	I haven't been to Moscow.
	Oh my God, we might have to do a trip.
	I would like to go to Moscow.
	I've read so much about it in the literature.
	Yeah, and it's...
	So I was baptised on Easter Saturday.
	And do you know what's interesting, actually?
	In this book, which is beautifully written by Yves...
	By the way, he knew Father Alexander, Yves Amand.
	Wonderful French.
	Yeah, I think he'd still maybe even be a professor at one of the...
	You know, in Paris.
	But he, in this book, it says on Easter Saturday, 1990, the church was full of people being baptised.
	And I suddenly realised, reading it, one of them was me!
	But you know when you sort of read something and think...
	Oh my goodness, I was part of history and then I sang in the choir the next day on Easter Sunday.
	Tiny church and it was beautiful.
	You can imagine, for miles around people came and they stood outside because it was so full.
	And then September the 9th, 1990, I'd gone back to London and then my mother came into my room in tears and with a telegram and said...
	Father Alexander's been murdered and they think that two people were involved and one asked him the time.
	He was on his way to give the liturgy at the church, you know, as he did every Sunday.
	And then the other person, so one person was asking him for the time, the other person came and hit him over the back of the head with a sapper's spade.
	I think it's quite axe-like, isn't it?
	So it's, you know, does a lot of damage.
	And he crawled back to his home.
	He wasn't that far away on the path and was outside the gate.
	And his own wife was looking down and didn't recognise him.
	Thought he was just a beggar because he was just covered in blood.
	And, yeah, they couldn't save him.
	Was he assassinated?
	He was assassinated, yeah.
	They think by the KGB, there's theories about who may have done it and for what reasons.
	But I mean, we're talking, this man was, so he was born a Jew and then he converted like his mother.
	So his mother converted in the catacombs.
	And then Father Alexander used to go...
	So during the Stalinist era, you know, when there were no churches, everyone was, you know, religion was banned, basically.
	Having faith was banned in God.
	He used to go to flats...
	Including of students, which was quite unusual, because it was mostly elderly people that the priest would go to, and he would go in secret and hold services throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, and then of course we know what happened in the perestroika glasinist kind of time.
	So, as I understand it, when you sort of join the Orthodox Church, you become a catechumen, first of all, don't you?
	Is that what they're called?
	A trainee member for about a year.
	Yes.
	Normally.
	And you get allocated a kind of mentor priest who kind of guides you through the process?
	Well, you know, this is why, James, it was so devastating because he was my...
	This is the other thing as well, is he didn't question my faith at all.
	And we're talking about a man who took it obviously very seriously, his faith, and he always, his philosophy, everything was through Christ, Father Alexander.
	That was his...
	And also he was ecumenical.
	And again, these are words that I'm still sort of grappling with the understanding of trying to harmonise, isn't it, all the parts of Christianity.
	You don't have different factions.
	So I was...
	He never said, well...
	What's your path been like to God?
	He didn't do any of that.
	He knew immediately, and I feel very, honestly, very humbled by that, because he could quite easily have said, well, let's do some, you know, you need to do some stuff before you get baptised.
	I think he realised how important it was, and of course, weirdly, James, I realise that I think...
	The last four years, I've...
	that this is the reason.
	I've suddenly gone, oh, okay, right, this is...
	it's all sort of making sense to me.
	But he was...
	I mean, there may be some people who think, oh, blimey, well, you've...
	You were just lucky to be baptised by him, because you're a sinner and you've done all sorts of things and you swear and you joke about this, that and the other.
	But I do take the fact that he baptized me very, very seriously, James.
	I don't at all take it for granted that that's what would have happened.
	But he'll always be with me.
	But you said the mentor, it would have been him, you see, because I really wanted to go back there.
	That was the plan, to go back to Novodirevny, to go back to Moscow, and continue my learning, my journey, and goodness knows where it would have ended up.
	So I felt really devastated, James.
	I felt absolutely, I thought, oh my goodness, it's been a couple of times, my husband and Father Alexander, where I felt the solar plexus, the punch, the sort of, where you feel physically sick, and all your world does this.
	It's upended.
	It's a shame that what you need, I think, is an equivalent.
	Yes, I do.
	Here.
	I know.
	You live in London, don't you?
	Yes, I know, but it's very hard, James.
	No, because you've basically, you had Obi-Wan Kenobi.
	Yeah.
	And you don't want to kind of, well, I suppose you get Yoda.
	Well, I hate to be...
	No, no.
	I can get the deputy, Obi-Wan Kenobi, the Yoda.
	But, yeah, it's very...
	Because he was canonised as well.
	So we're talking about...
	He is an extraordinary man, Father Alexander.
	So it is...
	I mean, as I speak, I sort of think...
	It is a thing, isn't it, of Christ hanging around the...
	Because, you know, I come from Swansea.
	I went from Swansea University out there, and I have to say, I was...
	You'd never guess it.
	Fuck off!
	You sound like you went to Cambridge.
	I sound like I went to Cambridge.
	You were off at a place, weren't you?
	Which I did tell people.
	And then someone said, well, that's a complete lie.
	It's like, no, it was an unconditional place based on the fact that I've got the gift of the gab.
	I went into the guy's room and went, look, I'll tell you all about Italian opera, because I've Russian and Italian with my things, and blah, blah, blah, and I sing.
	And he just said, based on your interview, basically, you've just got to fuck up your A-levels really badly to not get in.
	And guess what?
	I fucked up!
	Oh, you fucked up?
	Oh, okay.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	So it was entirely my fault because I didn't, you know.
	So there's been occasions like that when I... But it's funny because even, you know, obviously since the last time we spoke, I do feel like a likeness...
	A lot of the stuff that bogs you down, like, oh, I didn't do this, and oh, and I did this, and I wasted this, and this happened.
	It all disappears when you're confronted by what we've been confronted by, the last...
	Four or more years, you know, when you start to wake up and open your eyes and value the human condition and actually not intellectualise it too much.
	As I've said on my podcast many times, faith isn't an intellectual pursuit, actually.
	It's much more important than that.
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean...
	I've left you dumbfounded!
	No, well, no, I'm with you.
	I mean, this life is what, you know, 80, 90 years if you're lucky.
	Yes.
	But eternity is longer.
	It's quite a lot longer.
	You need to think about that stuff.
	And I think it makes...
	You're right.
	It does shape your life.
	I mentioned that I felt...
	I had that experience you had with Alexander.
	When I went to Mount Athos, I met this priest who just looked at me and it seemed that he knew me without me saying anything.
	He was almost laughing.
	You think you're just a tourist.
	He's come with his mate, reluctantly on his mate to Mount Athos, and you're slightly peeved that the rules of Mount Athos say you can't even swim in the sea, and you're hot, and you're thinking, why aren't I on a beach picking up birds with a beer?
	Why am I here?
	You don't know.
	I see your future.
	I see your future.
	So it was good.
	Yeah.
	I love this.
	The crazy stuff.
	The mystical stuff.
	Oh, yes, yes.
	Which I think the Orthodox do very well.
	Yes.
	And there's signs everywhere.
	And it's funny because I'm not...
	I mean, you probably know this.
	I'm not really a...
	I don't go for the...
	It's not that I don't think it's important, but I don't go for the symbology, which I know some people are fascinated by, the hand gestures, the one eye, whatever.
	Because in a weird way, I see it, as I said this on my podcast the other day, it's a bit like being on the sea and going, oh, that's the sea and that's wet and I'm in a boat.
	Because it's stating the obvious, isn't it?
	We are in this realm, the realm of the devil, where the devil does his best work.
	Yes, he does.
	He's really good at it.
	Next level.
	And we're sort of navigating it all.
	And we're constantly tempted by this, that and the other.
	And I think people who do good stuff, like yourself, James, because you've done an awful lot very early on, If we're just talking about the shit shit, you know, the COVID nonsense, you know, you did a great deal to alert people and wake them up.
	So I think that in itself, you have to take a look, you know, sort of go, well, that was my, that put me on the path, you know, to...
	To what you're doing now?
	I don't want to take any credit for it at all.
	I genuinely think that I'm just like...
	None?
	No, not really.
	God's...
	I mean, this sounds weird.
	I can't believe I'm actually saying this, although I have said this before.
	I just feel like this is the job God's given me and I feel really privileged.
	I think it's pretty great.
	I mean, I like that...
	Look, if there are people out there That I saved from the death jab.
	Imagine that.
	Imagine the ramifications of that.
	Even if there's one person who didn't get...
	All the horrible things that happen to you that can go wrong with you.
	So it's not just them, it's their family.
	So you've kind of accidentally or blessedly spread this, done this good.
	And apparently, somebody was telling me, I went for a treatment today with Michelle, who's at the Osteo, who I've had on my podcast.
	And she said that she's treated people who said, yeah, I'm a Christian, and she said, oh, right, we brought up Christians.
	No, no, just got it listening to James Dane Paul's Psalms podcast.
	And I was thinking, wow!
	That's nice.
	Yes.
	Because I don't want to be one of those Christians who, I say this occasionally, my main motto is don't frighten the horses.
	Yes.
	Because, I mean, if you frighten the horses, I tell you, I've seen it.
	They lift up on their hind legs and they go, and it's really scary.
	And you, I mean, they're big.
	They're big bastards.
	They're big, they are.
	And the chest, huge, like, powerful.
	And when I was a cultural Christian, if I got a whiff of somebody being one of those evangelical, you know, not capital E, but just evangelizing Christian, I used to think, actually, back off slowly now.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Because we've been trained to think of...
	Of Christians as being uncool, embarrassing, lame, and at the same time kind of sanctimonious, proselytizing.
	Yeah.
	I mean, some can be sanctimonious.
	They can be.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	They focus on some of the wrong stuff, which is, you know, we all, you know, I mean, someone told me off for swearing.
	I was going to bring this up.
	I used to swear much more than I do on the pod.
	And what stopped me was that somebody said, my 13-year-old kid loves your podcast, but it's kind of embarrassing in the car when we're listening and you drop the F-bomb.
	I was thinking, hang on a second, I quite value having younger listeners.
	And that's it, that's it really.
	But look, yes, I know you've been given a hard time for this, and I don't judge you.
	I mean, I was arrested for saying the F word.
	For heaven's sake, 17 hours in a police cell.
	So in a strange way, I look at that as, I mean, I do know, you know, because I've got young listeners as well, a lovely young guy, Will, who came to my birthday this year, and my show in Ledbury, who's, actually, they're both at the same place.
	Yeah, Ledbury has been, you know, we must have a, we should have some kind of bash next year, James.
	I'd love, you know, to come.
	I failed this year for reasons that you know.
	How is your lovely wife?
	Definitely getting better, occasional relapses, but I think you get those with traumatic surgery.
	I mean, you can't kind of cut somebody up for six hours and then not...
	And then not just go, oh, fine, here I am two months later.
	Yes, I've bounced back.
	I've bounced back.
	Oh, bless her, James.
	It was so terrible for you, because what an awful thing to go through.
	But I'm glad she's at least on the men slowly.
	No, and do you know what?
	It was very interesting how...
	My family were fantastic.
	Dick and Helen.
	Helen and Bear.
	It was almost as though, it was almost like a holiday for all of us.
	They came up to stay in my house and looked after me.
	For 10 days.
	And we could talk conspiracy stuff to our hearts content.
	And they looked after me and Bear did the DIY in the house.
	Everything that needed fixing that I couldn't do.
	It was just, as you know, Helen is the nice Dellingpole.
	She got the...
	She was gifted with this...
	We had a walk about this and I said, look, you know, you may look at me and you may think of me as, you know, the clever brother that does whatever you think I do, but actually you don't realise that you're...
	I don't want to sound all kind of gooey here or whatever.
	That's okay.
	We can do goo as well.
	You've been given a gift just as valuable as mine.
	It's just different.
	You know, okay, so you didn't get my fantastic intelligence and razor wit and...
	But...
	And your humility.
	My enormous world-conquering celebrity.
	But...
	What?
	You got to be the...
	And she does.
	Yes.
	She's wonderful, wonderful.
	And I saw, you know, the podcast you did.
	It was honestly, I was quite, you know, I'm going to confess, a little tear came to my eye because I saw Helen in the back, in the window while you were doing the podcast.
	I think it might have been with, maybe with, was Dick?
	It was a Dick podcast.
	Yes.
	I am going to do a Helen one.
	She's been quite coy about it.
	But maybe this will galvanise her.
	She wants the moment to be right.
	Yes.
	But I think people will be quite interested to see who is the mystery.
	So what's she like then?
	What's she like?
	I hope that she won't be too nice.
	I mean, she won't be cloyingly nice.
	She won't be...
	Yeah, although she's very clued up.
	She's not sort of some, what was it, not idiot savant, is that what you say?
	She's very, very, you know, she doesn't miss a thing, Helen.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	Don't forget, she was down the rabbit hole ten years before Dick and me.
	Yes.
	Can you imagine what that must have been like?
	Yeah.
	Not being able to talk about chemtrails.
	Yes, and now you can't stop you and Dick.
	You know, I met your dad.
	I mean, I've met him.
	Have I met him?
	He came to Ledbury.
	And I'm not sure if I'd met him before.
	I don't think I had, you know.
	But we are one amazing man.
	I walked in the Malvern Hills.
	After the Ledbury show with Helen Dicks.
	Oh, you did?
	Yes, it was even after the show.
	So, you know, the morning after the night before, even though I hadn't been drinking that much, there's still that kind of, oh my goodness, right, I did a show.
	But I still managed to pull my leggings on, just get my shit together.
	And it was honestly one of the best days I can remember.
	The best.
	It was sublime.
	How nice.
	I think almost the nicest thing in the world is going on a walk when the weather's nice with a bunch of nice people.
	The conversations are better.
	I always prefer walking conversations to anything else.
	If I run a business, I would do all my client meetings on walks.
	On walks?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And you do all your best thinking, don't you, on walks, and you're taking it easy.
	Although, admittedly, I did, because I didn't have walking shoes with me, boots with me, I was wearing, you know, a little Chelsea boot, you know, with a little tiny heel, very comfortable.
	But I did, now and again, I did nearly slip down a ravine.
	It was only because Charlotte, Baroness Charlotte, rescued me from doing it.
	The Worcestershire Beacon is quite steep in the last bit.
	Yes, and the divots, you know, when you think, oh, what's that?
	Oh, Christ, I've nearly gone down a hole, a rabbit hole.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And Dick's dogs, Orca and Lemmy were there.
	Those vicious dogs, yeah, I know.
	They should have been put down long ago.
	They're not vicious!
	They're so, I love, and I know this sounds very weird, but I love dogs' armpits.
	Their elbows and armpits are...
	James is looking at me like I think you've finally cracked abs.
	Well, no, I'm just trying to think of it because I always think of their pointy noses.
	Oh, yeah, pointy noses.
	Snouts are lovely.
	Very pointy noses, the lurchers.
	But very soft.
	Soft ears.
	Yes, ears.
	Very soft under the pit as well of a dog.
	Okay, well, I'll check them out next time.
	Well, I'm glad you had the old man experience, because...
	Yes.
	Yeah, I mean, isn't it weird discovering a nearly 90-year-old who is more insanely awake than...
	Yes.
	Makes us look like Normies.
	I mean, he's absolutely, he's into the lot.
	Yeah.
	And he went on the crash course as well.
	Yeah.
	He probably spent the first 85 years of his life, or 83 years of his life as a complete Normie.
	Yeah.
	And suddenly he goes down the rabbit hole.
	What a journey.
	And he goes down the way he just walks.
	And I struggle.
	You know, that hill where you first go up, near that cafe where we met.
	Was it called Camp?
	British Camp or something.
	British Camp.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, it's an Iron Age fort.
	That's it.
	And that's quite, isn't it?
	It's that thing of thinking, oh gosh, this is quite a shock to the system.
	But then once you're up that first bit...
	It's fine.
	When your heart sort of recovers.
	Yeah.
	From it.
	Lovely, lovely views.
	Beautiful views.
	Love it.
	Elgar.
	Elgar country.
	Exactly.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, obviously, if you go to school there, as we did, you get Elgar rammed down your throat.
	Elgar and Holst were both hanging about there.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	But I like Elgar and I like Halstead some.
	Yes.
	I love the Ken Russell film of Elgar.
	The Elgar film.
	Have you seen the Ken Russell film?
	I didn't know.
	I know you did Listermania.
	I didn't realise you did Elgarmania as well.
	Oh, it's wonderful.
	That's probably one of my favourite things is Elgar.
	And it's been really, really well.
	Yeah, I thoroughly recommend it.
	I don't know why that popped into my head.
	But yeah, it's really, yeah, really enjoyable.
	Although...
	I do now wonder...
	Every single famous person that's once ever heard of...
	I now find myself...
	Asking myself, what was their role in the deception?
	I know.
	Was Elgar's job to promote this kind of elegiac view of a lost England, to encourage that kind of sense of nostalgia which would stop people doing anything in the future, just encouraging us to accept our sort of second or third place in the world.
	Our law.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, who knows?
	I don't...
	But I mean, the music's so beautiful, it kind of makes off for it, he says, slightly lamely.
	But you could say that about Led Zeppelin.
	You know, I... Stairway to Heaven is...
	It's a masterpiece, but it's a satanic masterpiece.
	You know, the lady who's sure that Glitter is gold, I think she's been identified.
	And she was, is, I don't know whether she's still around, really, really, really, really, really, really evil.
	Yes.
	And this has been one of the difficult things for me as a sort of semi-cultured person.
	We're realising the role that culture has played in warping our sensibilities in what we thought was a good way, but actually take the wasteland, take T.S. Eliot.
	T.S. Eliot was essentially created, he was put on the map by Ezra Pound.
	If it hadn't been for Ezra Pound's, don't worry, I won't detain you too long in this high culture.
	I feel like I've just stepped into your office and we're having a tutorial.
	You have, you have.
	Miss Roberts, have you read your, please can you give me your essay on Wasteland?
	I haven't done it.
	My tutor, he didn't take me for Elliot, but my favourite tutor, the cleverest one, had actually original Robert Mapplethorpe pictures.
	You know Robert Mapplethorpe who does those saucy pictures of young men?
	Yeah, he had loads of Mapplethorpes in his study or in his set or whatever it was in Christchurch.
	Anyway, just very briefly, when you're studying English, you're encouraged to think that T.S. Eliot is the bee's knees, you know, that modernism was good.
	And now I look at modernism and think, yeah, was modernism part of the conspiracy to divide the generations from, say, the old-fashioned Georgian poets who preceded it and were swept away by these new voices like Yeats and Eliot?
	And how cognizant of it was Eliot, that he was essentially a tool of our oppressors?
	In order to turn this into, you know, a revolt against tradition.
	Yes, that's interesting.
	Well, I suppose, well, like, we're living in a period now, aren't we, where we're looking at even people sometimes in the freedom movement.
	You think, how aware are you of how tempting the baubles are?
	Even though you say, you know, I recognise the baubles, what they are, is it part of the human condition to say, well, on balance, would it be more beneficial for me to, you know, to go to the baubles or to step away?
	And I think that's a choice we all have, isn't it?
	Well, I... Yeah.
	I said, but look, if somebody were...
	If I were adopted, like, say...
	Candice Owens, for example, has obviously been heavily pushed by somebody.
	Yeah.
	And there are various people with that level of reach.
	Naomi Wolf, for example.
	Yeah.
	There were these people who were saying the kind of things that we like to hear on vaccines or God or whatever, who have a much, much bigger audience.
	Yeah.
	And I'm suspicious of anyone who has that size of audience.
	I don't think I would swap their audience.
	In fact, I quite like having a smaller audience because I think it means I can go on saying exactly what I like with no compromise at all.
	If I had to compromise in any way, I would feel that...
	Because you're...
	I mean, your brand is everything.
	And your brand ought to be, I think, the truth, regardless of where it takes you or how much it upsets people.
	Yes.
	But that's where I was going to...
	I have an argument with you.
	Well, it's not an argument, but I know that you and I have differed on certain issues, even though I consider you to be pretty, pretty well red-pilled.
	You're on the opposite side of Richard D. Hall, for example.
	The Manchester Arena bombings.
	Give me your take on him.
	This is us being unusually tropical.
	Yes, unusually tropical.
	I suppose my take on it is...
	Blimey.
	I don't want to put you on the spot, by the way.
	No, no, it's fine.
	It's fine.
	Is focusing on the...
	I sometimes think...
	Well, actually, weirdly, even the people on the other side, even the people who are saying it was definitely a bomb, lots of victims, blah, blah, blah, even that, I sometimes think dwelling on that means that we're being distracted from what is facing us at the moment.
	So there's a kind of...
	I'm sort of in between slightly, weirdly, but also that I sometimes think with the focusing on the going into the nitty-gritty and the, well, that person wasn't where they said they were and actually it wasn't a bomb in the traditional sense, etc., etc., is...
	And saying as well that there were no victims or that some of the victims were taken from hospital because they already had injuries and then they were sort of acting that they were part of this thing.
	I'll tell you that my issue with this, and in fact, weirdly, it goes back to what we were talking about, the...
	Faith and God and sort of tradition and the good things is it takes us away from compassion.
	I'm not sure I like the word compassion, but for want of a better word, compassion, morality, ethics, Human, I mean, I said this on the pod the other day, I don't know what you think, you know, you might think this is really naive, normy thing, sort of normy, normy thing to say, but please say if you do, which is, you know, when I sort of hear things about there are towns of crisis actors or there's groups of people who...
	Who are employed or used in whatever way.
	I think to myself, right, thinking about human nature, as I often do, what people do under pressure, what people do when they've got a secret to keep.
	If I had a room full of people now, even people that I didn't know very well, and we all knew something that we weren't meant to reveal to other people, I can tell you now that it would probably be about ten minutes before somebody had told somebody else that it wasn't true.
	Or that it was not how it was portrayed.
	So I'm coming at it from a sort of human nature.
	And actually, sometimes getting bogged down in it all, James.
	Getting bogged down in it.
	Oh, where are you going?
	I'm just conscious that, look...
	You've got a knot in your...
	No, no, no.
	Sorry.
	I've been conscious throughout that you're looking bright and pink, and I'm looking slightly sort of washed out and slightly green.
	And I wonder if it's because I've got...
	Just give me one second.
	Yes, yes, sure.
	Are you buying time to think about what your reply is going to be?
	It's not working.
	Oh, it's not working.
	I thought that maybe...
	Oh, your light?
	I thought I could turn up the light more, but I can't.
	So maybe I am naturally green.
	So what I've noticed in my since the beginning.
	So there was COVID, the fake pandemic nonsense was the kind of thing that united us all.
	And we all went on the marches, or a lot of us did, and met up and thought, This is amazing.
	These are the best friends I never knew I had.
	And we're all on the same trip.
	And it's great.
	It was like being on E, but without being on E. And there were lots of, you know, lots of sort of Christians around.
	And you could feel the sort of the auras.
	You could feel the good.
	Yes, yes.
	And it was fantastic.
	And then in the years since, what has happened is that we've been divided.
	We've been picked off a bit like crocodiles picking off wildebeest out of the migration.
	And some wildebeest have been picked off by the crocodile of Ukraine and some wildebeest picked off by the crocodile of Israel or whatever.
	I can't remember what the other...
	Oh, what the other things were.
	But there have been things where you suddenly thought...
	The big ticket.
	I call them the big ticket issues, yeah.
	And...
	There are some people who say, look, the time for making kind of conspiracy porn podcast is over.
	What I want from now on is a series about prepping, how to grow the best vegetables when you're being chemtrailed, methods of self-defense.
	We need to talk about practical things.
	And I'm saying, yeah...
	Hello.
	Oh, thank you.
	My response to that is, well, if you want practical tips, you've come to the wrong man.
	You've come to the wrong place!
	That's me out of business.
	You see my vegetable patch.
	And also...
	I have a fairly low boredom threshold, and I have to say that that boredom threshold is quite challenged beyond a certain period by things like...
	What the best kind of compost is to grow your seeds in and stuff.
	Somebody else has the patience.
	So I kind of reject that.
	And there are some people who say, yeah, well, they say what you're saying, I suppose, which is that one shouldn't dwell on the kind of pornographic detail of, for example, I mean, there's some people who don't like talking about ritual satanic abuse.
	Or who kind of know it exists, but they want to kind of write it mentally out of existence, because it's so horrible they don't want to go there.
	I, unlike you, am a believer in...
	You've got to be open to everything.
	So I am open to flat earth.
	That's another one.
	The people who say, you shouldn't do flat earth and you shouldn't do Paul is dead and you shouldn't do a few others like maybe mud floods or Tartaria because they discredit our cause.
	Yeah, it's as if somehow there are lots of normies sitting out there saying, well, I would believe in vaccine injury.
	And I would believe that they are trying to cut off our food supplies.
	I won't because the person who said this thinks Paul McCartney has died in 1966 and was replaced by a guy called Fall McCartney, fake Paul McCartney.
	I know.
	Who was also in the Bonzo Dog Juvedal Black.
	Yes.
	I love the Bonzo Dog.
	No normie has ever thought that.
	Yes.
	Well, not that we know.
	We know of.
	We're assuming.
	Okay.
	Slightly.
	Maybe three or four.
	Three or four numbers have thought that.
	Yes.
	But the main people who say this are what I would consider, I call them the purple pilled.
	People who've taken the red pill, but they want to take the odd blue pill every now and again, just to keep a foot in the normie camp and to remind themselves that they haven't gone completely insane and to enable them to look down.
	Because we're encouraged, part of the science, we're encouraged to marginalise people who have been branded extremists.
	But I think a lot of the time the extremists are right, and it's a device used to close down arguments which are unpalatable.
	I think it's very much in the interest, for example, of our dark overlords to promote the globe narrative and to have people...
	Sorry, James, what are your thoughts that Richard D. Hall, and by the way, I have no evidence for this, but I've just seen it floating about, is part of the deep state that he was put there.
	Oh, yeah, no, well, this is kind of… Is that Miri's?
	Is that Miri's view?
	That's kind of Miri's sound.
	Right, right, okay.
	And I have enormous respect and love for Miri.
	I think she's a sharp cookie.
	Yeah.
	Oh, I'm all for everything being on the table, James.
	Completely.
	But you know something?
	Sorry, while I remember to say this, because you know how sometimes you have a thought and then you think, oh shit, I should have said this.
	To be honest with you, it's more the bandwidth.
	It's more the bandwidth.
	And I can only deal with one atrocity at a time.
	So for me, the atrocity is we the people.
	It's so huge.
	So to be honest with you, it's because I actually physically, mentally can barely cope with the idea of, oh my God, are we really going into some Stalinist, you know, sort of neo-Stalinist era.
	That's what I can cope with.
	So I suppose that's my honest answer.
	Well, can I sort of attempt to describe what I think I've seen in some of your comments on this?
	You can.
	I think you can tell me if I misrepresent you.
	I think that you've been suggesting that if Yes.
	have been traduced as fakes, they've been accused of faking it, then that is such a horrible and upsetting thing that it is better not to have gone there in the first place.
	Well, no, it's more that if you're saying that about somebody...
	So, for instance, I'll give...
	Just to take an example, if people, for instance, said that my husband didn't die, you know, I didn't find him lying on the bedroom floor, and it was all a kind of...
	It's all a way to, I don't know, to make myself look...
	I'm just taking, this is going, you know, I'm using it extreme, funnily enough, that I'm using it in some way to have sympathy for myself, blah, blah, blah, oh, because she's a widow and she's, whatever.
	The people that are saying that have to be apt.
	I'm categorically 100% sure, well, have to have been in the room for me to go, okay, it's a fair cop.
	Because the burden of evidence lies with the person that's saying it.
	The thing about the victims don't, you know, and I, so I say, if they can, if they, you know, they've got that, then by all means come forward and say, I've seen so-and-so walking down the street, and here they are.
	So that's my kind of, that's where I am with it.
	That's what I call the, something like the...
	Signed in triplicate, witnessed by lawyers and stamped with, you know, kind of official stamps fallacy.
	In that it's in the nature of all the conspiracies that we see in the world that you can only...
	you're never going to be able to prove the standards of proof that you are demanding are so high that essentially it would be impossible ever to suggest for example that that 9-11 was an inside job or or that um or that we haven't been to the moon that that that But doesn't one standard apply to both sides?
	No.
	Why not?
	Because...
	You're actually not doing that.
	You're actually imposing a higher burden of proof on our side than you are on the enemies.
	It seems to me to be an entry-level point about once you become awake, once you enter the realm of conspiracy theories, what you realize is...
	That the media is a lie machine.
	The government is a lie machine.
	The officials are liars.
	The whole...
	everything in the world um barring some true things like horses or bacon and eggs are or or jesus are essentially lies they are they are that's how they rule over us they rule over through us uh through lies that that's that's why even though there are very very i mean that's that in a way is the essence of their magic i mean okay
	there's a kind of supernatural element as well um involving the intervention of of diabolical forces and stuff but mainly um What they are practicing on an epic scale is conjurer's tricks.
	And while the conjurer is distracting you with this hand, he's got the other hand, you know, he's pulling the rabbit, he's hiding the rabbit or whatever.
	Yeah.
	So back to the, so what are the people who are involved in this?
	Okay, what you're doing with, take the arena bombing, the Manchester arena bombing.
	What you're saying, it seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, is that I trust the reports on this event, which have been supplied to me by the BBC on the morning after the bombing, by the police,
	by the ambulance services, by the alleged witnesses, when I know that And you can do this.
	You could cite loads of events in history where all sorts of figures of authority and official figures have lied through their teeth.
	They've manipulated us through newspapers.
	The Gulf of Tonkin incident.
	The origins of the Second World War.
	The origins of the First World War.
	The Titanic.
	The harvest?
	Stalin's harvest of sorrow?
	40 million people?
	I've met some of the people whose family members were taken away by Stalinists, by people to shoot them in the back of the head in the middle of the night.
	No, but I'm just giving that as an example.
	But which parts of history do we trust and do we not trust then?
	The Holodomor...
	We go back to the harvest of sorrow.
	But Stalin was an agent of the very system that we're talking about.
	But he still murdered lots and lots of people.
	Yes, you did.
	I don't think anyone is disputing.
	So what I'm saying is, what happens if people then start to say, actually, that's not...
	I'm not saying that they can't say it, James.
	Who's saying this?
	Well, no, I'm saying that if...
	Well, I don't know, but there may be people who say, for their own reasons...
	Well, you'd find me this person that's saying that the Great Terror didn't happen.
	No, I'm saying that if we're saying that about other big events in history, that are in our kind of collective consciousness, then which do we single out as not being...
	As they've been portrayed by...
	I mean, the thing is, it's not the media, Christ, of all people.
	I couldn't give a shit about whether the media all burns a terrible death after the lies that they've subjected people to.
	But it's more...
	Actually, it's not the BBC, the reports of what happened, the bomb, etc.
	Whether it was even a bomb, I don't know.
	It's the things like the Richard D Hall, you know, when he's talking with the behavioural analyst, you know, about body language of the family of the people.
	Why is that not valid?
	Just because it looks like...
	It's used in courtrooms.
	No, but it just looks like pseudo-science.
	You know, when you're saying the way the person said hand, or the way the person said...
	I actually watched it and thought, was it brass eye?
	I've got to be honest with you, I did look at it.
	And this isn't because I'm not cynical, James, or I trust anyone, but I do think sometimes discernment...
	Which is a word, isn't it?
	It's banded about a lot.
	Well, banded about a lot, but it is still...
	By people who want to use it for their particular cause.
	It is still useful, isn't it, in life?
	Everyone thinks they've got discernment, Christians particularly, but you only have to look at the violent disagreements between Christians to realise that at least 50% of them must not have it, because they're violently opposed on different issues.
	So it's not the reports that I trust the BBC and the police and all the rest of it.
	I mean, Christ.
	But that's what you are doing.
	That's exactly what you're doing.
	No, but it's more the focus.
	Well, because it's such a huge thing.
	I'm trying to hone everything down into the idea of...
	Whether these people that are being interviewed, the families of the victims, to what end?
	Well, I suppose, what have they been given to shut them up?
	If they're part of something, if they're part of theatre, what are they being given, James?
	Okay, if you're asking that question...
	Yeah.
	Tell me, what would someone have to offer you to keep quiet about...
	Say something we'd been involved in that nobody else knew.
	It's not about...
	What would you be offered?
	It's not about us.
	I don't know why...
	No, but I mean, they're human beings, aren't they?
	The people that are in the videos, in the interviews.
	Human beings are very different.
	We've already established that...
	We value our integrity more than we do the temptations of this world.
	We agree that Satan is the god of this world and that his temptations are everywhere.
	We've kind of made the decision that we're not going to go there, but it doesn't mean to say that other people made of perhaps with feet of maybe crumblier clay aren't rather different.
	And if you spent any time Listening to or even chatting to people like Oli Damagard, you would realize that these operations are planned.
	Don't forget that we...
	Let's agree what we can agree on.
	The world is run by unimaginably rich people Who own the media, who've bought up all the institutions, they've bought up the police, they've bought up the intelligence agencies, where the intelligence agencies work for them.
	They for a long time have found it easier to stage things like terrorist attacks through fakery than they have through killing real people.
	It's not that they haven't done it in the past, but what they find is that their resources are better deployed in just paying off people To people who are willing to act out the role of victims, etc.
	They have...
	There are companies which specialize in providing so-called crisis actors.
	I mean, with loads and loads...
	They can provide you with a whole crowd.
	Like the crowd that appeared at the fake Trump assassination rally, for example.
	They have limbless crisis actors who can, as in the Boston bombing, they can fake the effects of people who've had their legs blown off by these alleged terrorists.
	terrorists yeah that they can then be retired from the scene for for what they would consider to be enough money to justify um um what and keep and keep quiet about it Well, yes.
	That's the bit that I find quite...
	That's the bit I find hard.
	Do you think that these people...
	In fact, this was described on one of Oli's many podcasts.
	Somebody asked him this and he said, well, what would normally happen is that if somebody starts...
	Threatening to break their NDA, as it were.
	What will happen is that somebody's dog, pet, will be suddenly found with its throat cut.
	And they'll say, you were thinking about next time it won't be the dog.
	They play hardball these people.
	They've signed a contract.
	They've made the deal with the devil.
	That's how it works.
	I can totally see that if, say, my eight-year-old daughter had really been blown up...
	In Manchester Arena, say.
	Whether by a bomb or something else.
	Somebody was accusing me of my daughter having not died, say.
	Or that you'd killed her in a previous attack, is what somebody was saying.
	I don't think anyone was saying it.
	Yeah, yeah, that's what someone was, I read, that was, you know, I can't remember who said it, but actually they'd done a kind of, what was it, her name, Madeleine McCann.
	I don't know about that one, but I don't think Richard D Hall said anything like that.
	Yeah, but you see, that's, yeah.
	So, yeah, carrying what you're saying.
	So if someone came to you and said, let's have a look at your body language, James, and then they were saying, look at the way James' eyes look a bit shifted.
	No, no, but I mean, if someone came to you and said it was a lie that, you know, your daughter hadn't been, and then they started saying, look at the way James' eyes look slightly shifted to me.
	Well, probably Myers would have looked shifty if I had...
	Well, if you were...
	My daughter had died in some other incident.
	If you were traumatised.
	No.
	We can talk about the body language analysis, if you like, which is a separate issue.
	But I think that, for example, there's a guy who specialises in doing that in the American courts and can often tell whether...
	Well, I think he's had 100% success, actually, telling whether, you know, somebody who claims they haven't killed their husband did, in fact, kill him.
	Oh, yes, yes, definitely.
	Of course, yeah, yeah.
	The way that they construct...
	The Desmond Morris school of...
	Which is, you're revealing things just by your...
	Your eyes, hands.
	Yeah, that's well known.
	He did a very good analysis of...
	He was shown the interviews that the Apollo astronauts gave having been to the moon.
	Yeah.
	And he didn't have a dog in the fight.
	I mean, he certainly wasn't a kind of moon landing to now until he saw their interviews and came away saying, well, there's just no way these people went to the moon, the way they're talking in the same way.
	So I don't believe...
	That, for example, Richard D. Hall bases his case purely on analysis of body language, but it is one of the methods at his disposal.
	In a world where, don't forget, you've got an official line machine doing everything it can to try and Present this in the way it wants to be presented.
	So a terrorist called Salman Abedi blew up these kids in the foyer of an Ariana Grande concert.
	If you can start finding holes in this argument, whether they're based on the lack of damage to the foyer or whether it's body language, then that seems to me legitimate.
	But Richard G. Hall's not talking to the standard of going.
	We're not talking about the guy that's in the American court.
	This is a woman.
	I'm not even sure how, what her experience is, her qualifications.
	So it is a bit, like I said, when I said the brass eye thing, it is genuinely, I don't know if you've watched it, where she goes, you know, because he's a Geordie, which I mean is like, I feel quite offended because my husband was a Geordie Terry.
	And look at the way that they see hand.
	And there's a pause.
	And also, they're talking about...
	And again, it's not like I've looked into every single...
	element of the you know the night you know what happened the the night you know as it's described but you know when um people say things like oh she said that she was there but in fact she wasn't she was just somewhere else well I can tell you from personal experience that if you said to me abs what happened in the 20 what happened in the 24 hours after you found terry I wouldn't be able to tell you.
	Okay.
	In fact, you'd probably say, no, you're lying because actually the policeman or the paramedics came about two hours after you said.
	That's what I mean.
	It's minimising the human condition.
	That's why I suppose I get agitated.
	Maybe I do get too emotional, but I mean...
	The emotion that I have did lead to doing a book called We The People.
	Yeah, look, I think it's very upsetting.
	As I say, that we live in a world where Satanists want to kill us all or enslave us, and that they will use any and every method at their disposal to achieve this, ranging from spraying the skies to arranging fake terrorist attacks.
	It's upsetting.
	I totally get the false flags thing.
	I'm well up.
	I'm not denying that at all.
	Which, if you don't think that Manchester Arena was a false flag...
	Which false flags do you accept?
	I'm not saying it's not a false flag.
	I'm not saying it's not a false flag.
	I'm not saying that the people behind Abedi, that he wasn't part of the mechanism Abedi, that he wasn't used in some way.
	I'm not saying that at all.
	I think people maybe think I'm more, what's the word, naive than I come across.
	So give me your best shot then.
	You think that Salman Abedi, there was a real bomb, But Salman Abedi was just a tool of intelligence services.
	Yeah, a tool of the state, and he was almost certainly known to the authorities, you know, as usual, and they'd done a sort of...
	Well, yeah, used by the authorities.
	I mean, it's weird.
	I don't see...
	One doesn't rule out the other, what I'm saying.
	I don't think it rules out then going, well, if there are victims...
	Then it is as a result of a false flag.
	Do you see what I mean?
	So it's kind of, it's like I'm standing between the two, the two things.
	I think you kind of want it both ways.
	Perhaps I'm being unfair here, but well, or being brutal.
	But it seems to me that you want to have a view that shows you're no fool, that you know it was a false flag, but at the same time you don't want it to be so much of a false flag that you have to countenance the possibility that witnesses would have lied about their experiences and faked their injuries.
	Yes, that would be my position because...
	Yeah, that would be my position on it, actually.
	And the other ones, so, just briefly, Sandy Hook, were the kids killed?
	I've got no idea.
	I genuinely have no idea.
	Boston.
	Boston.
	Possibly, again, possibly could have been somebody being used by the, you know, by the Deep State.
	What about the ones, the drummer Lee Rigby?
	Did he have his head chopped off in the streets by...?
	Yeah.
	Well, I don't know.
	I mean, yes.
	See, this is the thing.
	I used to, like, I used to think...
	But isn't this taking away...
	Aren't we sort of giving a little bit...
	Giving, you know...
	Way to the enemy.
	That's what I fear.
	And I'm not talking about people looking at people who speak about these things in the way they do and kind of going, oh, you're extremist, therefore we don't believe any conspiracies.
	I'm not saying that.
	I'm saying that it is taking away...
	I just think it's...
	I just kind of go, well, put it this way, how long do we do this stuff for?
	Before we go, shit, the enemy's already at the door like this.
	You know, and we've been talking about Sandy Hook, you know, blah, blah, blah.
	They're crimes regardless, James, aren't they?
	They're crimes regardless.
	Well, no.
	But if they're fake or they're real, they're still crimes.
	Yes, but...
	With dead people.
	But one...
	As a result.
	Well, not necessarily, no.
	One is...
	So not dead people.
	No, one is...
	So who's not dead?
	So...
	No, the...
	From the...
	So do you think that some people didn't die in the Manchester arena following...
	Didn't die.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I mean, I'm inclined to think that I've got to be careful here because I don't know.
	Actually, I think the case that was brought against Richard D. Hall was for harassment rather than alleged harassment.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	No, I personally think that the whole thing was fake.
	Everything.
	Everything.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And I think that actually the longer you, the more you look into these things, the The more you realise that there came a point.
	I can't remember when the cutoff point would have been exactly.
	There came a point where the powers that be decided that it would be easier to fake terrorist attacks than to actually carry them out.
	And I think that...
	Why would that be?
	Why would they rather than carry them out?
	Because killing people is messy.
	You get grieving relatives who are continually asking questions through the ages.
	That's the one that I've heard most commonly advanced.
	And they have the ability to do these fakes and they have a compliant media which reports on them as if they were true.
	So they don't need to kill fakes.
	So many people anymore.
	That's...
	Just out of interest, what happens when we're back to sort of human nature, what happens if amongst the people in the theatre, you know, the theatre of it, what happens if there are...
	I mean, take, for instance, the last four years, a lot of people were compliant and went along with it and, you know, we call them the normies, the sheep, the sheep.
	What happens if amongst the group of people there are people like you and...
	You and me, who go, yeah, I'm going to risk, I'm going to tell somebody, because I know it's not right to be part of a lie.
	So what happens if there's, you know, assuming they're not all sheeple in the theatre?
	It's the dog.
	It's the murdered pet first.
	Yeah, but I mean, I didn't think I'd spend 17 hours in a police cell, James, and I'd probably do, prepared to do a lot worse if they...
	If they, you know, increase their authoritarianism.
	It's assuming there's not somebody in the group of people who just go, do you know what?
	I don't give a shit.
	I don't want to be part of a lie.
	Regardless of my dog or my...
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
	Because there are people like that.
	There are crazies.
	Yeah, but they don't...
	Edward Snowden!
	They kind of select their fake victims.
	They're not amateurs.
	It sounds like an awful lot of work.
	That's their job.
	When they could just plant a bomb and kill people.
	Abby, you go onto the stage and you do a set.
	It's what you do.
	There are people out there whose job it is to...
	And they're well paid.
	They create these spectaculars.
	They're creating theatre.
	It's a bit like Cameron Mackintosh staging a West End musical.
	Except in this case, this is people faking a terrorist incident in the service of...
	I mean, the people who want to create a feeling in the public that more needs to be done about law and order and more needs to be spent on MI5 and MI6. I suppose I'm just baffled that they don't use the old-fashioned way of just getting someone to blow people up.
	Wouldn't that be easier?
	Yeah.
	I know I'm probably asking very basic questions here.
	It's not what you think.
	It's about what they do.
	But for the same end?
	Are we saying that it's for the same end though?
	It's a bit like, look.
	You didn't expect me to come back with this stuff.
	No, no, I fully expected you to.
	Yeah.
	Because I hear it all the time from, you know, I mean, it's not like I haven't engaged with normally arguments before.
	No, but nobody on the podcast, if you were interviewing someone, they probably might have conceded a bit more, I think.
	No, no, because I know that I've noticed that this is something you feel passionate about.
	And I was thinking, well, I don't really want to talk about this stuff because it's going to change the...
	It's going to change the mood.
	The first half of this podcast was very jolly.
	And I knew that was going to be a confrontation.
	Because I said to Bob beforehand, I said, I'm going to have to have an argument with Abby.
	I'm going to have to go for it.
	Because you popped up in the comments of some of my pieces on this.
	And I was thinking, yeah, Abby, it's interesting that you feel strongly about this.
	And I was thinking, well, I... We need to have this out.
	And I don't think we're ever going to resolve it, because I can see that your mindset is...
	Well, my mindset's independent of other...
	I sometimes think, while we're talking about this, I sometimes think in the freedom movement, there is a sort of, I'm afraid, also a kind of groupthink movement.
	Which is potentially also, you know, maybe not wise.
	Again, I am a free speech absolutist, so, you know, people fill your boots, as far as I'm concerned.
	But you kind of don't think that, because you get quite...
	Look, I don't...
	It doesn't bother me at all.
	You're not going to find me popping up on one...
	If you were to, say, write a substack saying how aggrieved you were on behalf of the kind of allegedly maligned victims of the Manchester Arena bombing, I wouldn't pop up in your comments and say this is bollocks.
	Because I'm thinking, well...
	But you can!
	That's what people do.
	We're friends.
	That's what people do.
	But did I say it was bollocks under your thing?
	I didn't say bollocks, did I? That was the purport of your...
	Yeah, but I mean, I did say fuck outside the COVID inquiry and then spent 17 minutes.
	You were crossing up set, and I'm pushing...
	But James, I'm not a shy retiring violet, as you know, so I mean, it would be a bit weird if I put, oh, hello, and then put something a bit sort of, a bit namby-pamby.
	You might have thought, well, come on, Abs, what do you really mean?
	What are you really saying here?
	No, I'm thinking, why did you bother?
	Because it's like, why do you care so much?
	I think that...
	I think the problem of the awake people is not groupthink.
	I don't think that's a problem.
	There's a little bit of that.
	I think the problem is that people expect us all to think the same.
	Yes.
	That there ought to be this kind of, you know, come on now.
	You've kind of hinted at this, that we've got bigger battles to fight.
	We shouldn't be doing this or we shouldn't be doing that.
	Whereas I'm thinking...
	Yeah.
	Richard D. Hall, the stuff we disagree on, like Flat Earth, for example, he doesn't like the fact that I'm inclined to believe in Flat Earth.
	He probably thinks it's discrediting, that it's irrational and that it detracts from our cause.
	Yeah.
	It doesn't bother me that he thinks that.
	I think he does good work in his field.
	And I think, you know, you say lots of stuff that I agree with and that's great.
	I think that you're...
	That you're completely wrong about this believe the victims stuff.
	No, not always though.
	We know there are some times when people...
	I'm talking about this particular example that you're...
	The analogy I sometimes use is there's a body that's been found in the library.
	It's got a dagger planted between its shoulder blades.
	And we look at the body and say, well, this person's been murdered.
	But the normal response is, well, I refuse to accept this person's been murdered until I know what the motive is.
	And you're saying, well, I can't quite believe that they would be faking these stunts, because why would they do it?
	I wouldn't say that if I found a body in the library.
	No, no, but you are, because there is a welter of evidence.
	Well, I'd look at whether they'd taken their own lives first.
	I'd look at the possibility they'd taken their own life.
	Ranging from the testimony of one of the Dulles brothers, who was the one that pointed out, I think it was in the 1960s, he pointed to a village in Greece and said, that village is full of people, of...
	People that we've used on fake events.
	This is back in the 1960s.
	They were doing it then.
	It's not like they've reined in and thought, well, we tried that trick, but we're not going to do it anymore.
	If you accept, as I said, you should do.
	It's entry level.
	It's Awakeness 101.
	If you accept that the rulers of the darkness of this world control us through deception, Then you cannot really...
	It's not an intellectually tenable...
	You bring it back to the emotions, but it's not intellectually tenable to argue that people should not question...
	The witness testimony of victims...
	I don't say that, though.
	I didn't say that.
	But you get very upset about it.
	You can question it.
	You can question it.
	But, I mean, the word upset, I think, is a little bit of a straw.
	It's a little bit of a catch-all, though, because upset also implies slightly...
	What's the word?
	A slight weakness...
	In the way one looks at evidence and events.
	Whereas I don't think that's the case with me.
	But hang on a second.
	Again, we go back to this thing.
	You are demanding...
	You are imposing on people like Richard D. Hall a burden of proof that you are not imposing on the BBC and the authorities, which give us a version of events.
	And we are expected to believe it.
	And you are saying...
	In the teeth of official opposition...
	I'm saying I'm not prepared to die on a hill for Richard D. Holt.
	I'm not prepared to die on a hill for him.
	No, but no one's asking you to die on a hill.
	All they're saying is, well, why not just shrug your shoulders?
	But I'm not dying on a hill for the BBC either.
	Why not just shrug your shoulders?
	But you're taking a position.
	Well, because I'm not going to be told when I can shrug my shoulders and when I can't by anybody.
	I don't care who they are.
	Yeah, but that's not really...
	I know it's a bit of an inconvenient thing to say, but that's true, James.
	I'm difficult.
	I don't necessarily go with what...
	You want your cake and you're eating it.
	So you're saying, I'm entitled to my viewpoint.
	Yes, my view.
	But then when challenged on why it is that you feel it's so important to express this view… You sort of slide away by talking about your understanding of human emotions, which is just so vague.
	No, human nature.
	Human nature.
	I guess it's to do with keeping the...
	I don't think I slide away, James, at all.
	I don't think I'm sliding away at all.
	It's intellectually rigorous.
	It's emotional.
	No, I'm not sliding away at all.
	No, it's more the human nature...
	I mean, I've made my...
	I've spoken quite a lot, made my case, you know, about the human nature element of keeping a secret, especially when you've got somebody like me, for instance, in a group of people...
	It's not about you, and we've already established how it works.
	Yeah, I know, but if they're...
	Fear is a terrible thing.
	The threat of being killed...
	It's quite a powerful incentive not to speak out.
	And I keep mentioning this point, and then you keep going back to this thing, but people will blab.
	And I go back to you and say, but they're frightened of being killed.
	They threatened Edward Snowden with death, and he, you know, went to Moscow.
	Well, I'm not sure that I trust Edward Snowden, and I'm not sure that that's relevant to this particular case.
	But there are whistleblowers.
	There are people who have done us a favour.
	Yes, there are.
	But this is just getting silly now.
	I know.
	The thing is, James, we should be doing this with some booze sitting at a table.
	No, we shouldn't.
	No, we shouldn't.
	That would be really sloppy and pointless and boring.
	I don't think we're going to get anywhere.
	Well, I think we've got somewhere.
	We've had a conversation and we just...
	There are things we disagree on.
	I think it's been...
	I think that this part is not...
	Well, actually, it would be quite interesting to...
	I think that there will...
	You get people, for example, who think that I love the James and Dick podcasts.
	They're great.
	And you get people who say, I do hate it when they bang on about Christianity.
	And then people say, oh, yeah, James and Dick, it's too self-indulgent.
	I suspect there will be people who say, oh, I love the first part of this podcast, but it got really boring when they just did, he said, she said, Punch and Judy show at the end.
	Well, maybe.
	There will be others.
	Who said, finally, I think we've generated more heat than light.
	I don't think we've really resolved anything.
	But there will be people who like this kind of thing, which I don't, which is why I don't do it.
	You brought it up.
	But I thought it absolutely had to happen.
	Oh, okay.
	I couldn't see any way round it.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Because it was like, you've discovered a pair of, you're my wife, and you've discovered a pair of knickers that aren't yours in my coat pocket.
	We could spend our dinner not talking about it, but...
	They are the knickers in the jacket pocket, aren't they?
	Yes, exactly.
	So either you're a cross-dresser or you're having it off with somebody down the street.
	So I don't see how we could have not talked about it because...
	Yeah.
	I think it would have been, I think it would have been wrong, but I wasn't looking forward to it.
	And I'm not sure.
	I mean, to be honest, I genuinely, I wasn't prepared.
	I didn't think we would.
	I wasn't prepared.
	But I think this is what conversations are, James.
	This is what conversations are.
	They're, you know, back and forth and, you know.
	That's what happens.
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, I think this is...
	I'd be really interested to see what people's reactions are.
	Yes.
	The ones who go, I want more of this, I will go, yeah, fuck off.
	Fuck off.
	You're not having any more of this.
	And I'm perfectly prepared, by the way, I'm perfectly prepared for people to go, oh, well, either Abby's got a point or, yes, Abby, or Christ, or Ab's, she's totally lost it.
	She's lost the plot.
	But I mean, that's, you know, that's what we do.
	We talk and we air these things much better, I think, to do it than not do it.
	Yeah, yeah, I guess.
	Yeah, I know.
	I'm sorry I've disappointed you.
	How do we end?
	I'm amazed my bladder has held this long.
	You're amazed my bladder has held this long?
	Well, we must end telling people where they can get.
	Do you think women have weaker bladders than men?
	Eh?
	Do women have weaker bladders than men?
	No, I don't think.
	I'm usually like a camel, but I had a UTI. Oh, too much information, Abs.
	Yeah.
	This.
	We the people.
	Can I say where to get it?
	Yeah, of course you can.
	Obviously.
	Lulu.com.
	Lulu as in, you make me want to shout that Lulu.
	And you can also get...
	So just type in...
	Fucking hell.
	And we haven't even done the Blues and Robert Johnson at the Crossroads.
	Anyway.
	I'd love to talk about some more.
	Huh?
	Let me just finish with a book, because otherwise people, someone's going to say, for fuck's sake, why didn't you say?
	I have this book from Lulu.com.
	No profit.
	I'm not getting any money for it.
	It's all printed at cost.
	There's stories in there.
	Very harrowing.
	You can also get it, though, for free on Kindle and Apple Books.
	Totally for free.
	And it's also got, the quote on the back is, I was born for this, I came into the world for this, to bear witness to the truth, and all who are on the side of the truth listen to my voice.
	Truth, said Pilate, what is that?
	John 1837.
	You see, you know, because you read the Bible unlike me, so I'm going to go to hell probably in a handcart.
	Abby, thank you so much for appearing on the podcast.
	I've loved talking to you.
	Even the bits where we disagree.
	But we haven't ever really roused.
	It feels weird.
	It feels like we're, you know, the end of a, I don't know, it's like a marriage where we had a great 40 years and then suddenly, are you trying to go to the loo as we're talking?
	You are.
	Bloody hell right.
	Thank you.
	I feel exactly the same way as I did about you before.
	I still love you very much.
	No, nothing.
	I'm very much like that, I think.
	I think I'm lovely.
	Yes, you are actually.
	No, you don't sort of take things.
	It's over now.
	We've done the round.
	It's normally people who break up with me.
	My past is littered with the bodies of friendships which have been destroyed by the other side, not me.
	I want everyone to be my friend.
	Thank you for...
	Buy a biz book, and please support me.
	Well, actually, you don't have to.
	I'm not begging you, but actually, I really appreciate those of you who do support me on Substack or on Locals, or buy me a coffee.
	I like that.
	Support my sponsors, and buy a biz book, and thank you very much.
	I'm going to give a wee-wee now.
	Bless you, Don.

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