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Oct. 16, 2024 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole

01:15:15

Joe Morrell

James talks to farmer’s son Joe Morrell about the perils of Big Agriculture, the horrors of pesticide injury and about the remarkable treatment that brought him back from the dead after he had almost lost hope.↓ ↓ ↓Here is the link for this week’s product https://nutrahealth365.com/ ↓ ↓ ↓ Buy James a Coffee at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/jamesdelingpole The official website of James Delingpole:https://jamesdelingpole.co.uk x

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	Welcome to the DellingPod with me, James DellingPod.
	I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest, but before we meet him, a quick word from one of our superb sponsors.
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	And you can find all this at NutriHealth365.com NutriHealth365.com Welcome to the DellingPod, Joe Morrell.
	Although it can be pronounced moral, you've told me, as well.
	Now, this is going to be an interesting podcast.
	This is going to be like slightly different from my normal ones.
	Because normally I go deep down the rabbit hole and, you know, crazy conspiracy theories.
	But I do like a good story.
	And some of my favourite podcasts I've ever done have been about people with really interesting stories.
	I remember... One of my favourites.
	I don't even get it online now.
	Some of my stuff disappeared.
	The guy who spent three months imprisoned by the Taliban.
	That was a good one. Joe, you haven't been imprisoned by the Taliban, but you've got kind of...
	I mean, apart from anything else...
	You're very lucky to be alive.
	I mean, you were introduced to me by my Buteyko friend, Christopher Drake, and he tells me Of all the people he's ever treated using Boteko, you were, well, A, he said you were one of the nicest, but B, he said you were the closest to being a goner.
	If he was honest with himself, he thought you were going to die.
	So just tell me a bit about your story, about where you come from and how you became to be so ill.
	Right. Yeah, well, I spent the first 12 years of my life in South Yorkshire on my father's farm, and then we moved over the border eight miles to North Nottinghamshire to my mother's farm.
	So I come from quite a very long established family business, farming family, and our family owns about 5,000 acres, so they're in quite a, you know, quite a good situation, well-heeled.
	That's respectable. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	But, you know, my grandfather, Joe Cam, who got an MBE in the war for his contributions to agriculture during the war, so he was kind of a big guy, he was one of the pioneers of modern industrial agriculture.
	And with monoculture, giant fields, giant machines, ripping out the hedges, it's all very non-ecologic, comes also the use of pesticides.
	And, you know, you can't grow crops like that unless you use agrichemicals.
	Now, one of the big open secrets in the farming community is that everybody gets sick, or a lot of people get sick, from what are effectively nerve agents.
	I've done a lot of research since I got ill.
	In my 40s, I did quite a lot of research into the parallel development of military nerve agent and insecticide, herbicide and fungicide.
	They're the same chemicals. And of course, they put on our food.
	They're not in the concentrations you'd use on a battlefield.
	But the results are similar.
	People die either acutely.
	There's plenty of stories of farmers getting dosed with chemicals, going to bed and never waking up.
	Or you get what I got, which is chronic illness.
	You know, so the first story I remember of being personally exposed was what the old manager, when I told him how ill I was many years later, said, I'm not surprised.
	When you were six, your father took you on the sprayer on a day when nobody should have been spraying because it was too windy and in those days there were no cabs on the tractors and the chemical just goes up and it completely goes over the driver.
	Well, I was sat A little child on a toolbox.
	I got completely covered in chemical.
	How long did it take my dad to spray that field?
	I don't know, an hour maybe?
	So I'm covered in nerve agent.
	And then, you know, what happened afterwards?
	Well, at the age of six, I went deaf in both ears.
	I got epilepsy.
	I was chronically anxious, chronically depressed, a lot of waves of depression, and also I couldn't sleep.
	And I sort of seemed to grow out of it as you get stronger, but I had other doses as years went by, and I probably got to my lowest point.
	Well, I did get to my lowest point in my early 40s.
	And, you know, I really didn't think, I mean, I had, you know, CFS, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple chemical sensitivity, electrical sensitivity, I couldn't use a mobile phone, I couldn't be near anyone on a mobile phone.
	I had to, you know, incredible fatigue.
	I could barely brush my teeth.
	So I ended up on a farm in Scotland, Dumfries and Galloway, with a very kind farmer and his wife who had been damaged by sheep dip, because there's a whole community of people, the pesticide exposure group, as it used to be called, pegs.
	And I was involved with all of them and I got invited onto this organic sheep farm because this guy had been damaged.
	So at least there were two of us who could look after each other and with his very kind family.
	So I survived those early times after when my health really crashed on this farm in Scotland.
	I'm just going to pause you there because there's lots of...
	I mean, I find this really interesting because, okay, for me incredibly naive, But I have this kind of romantic view of farmers and farming.
	Because I think, number one, they own lots of land.
	Or they live surrounded by often beautiful countryside.
	They produce things that we actually need.
	Because we do need food.
	We do need wheat and we do need meat.
	So... Automatically, I'm on farmers' side.
	I also think that farmers quite often do things I like doing, like riding horses.
	They're in touch with nature.
	They have a sort of honest life.
	And also, I mean, I quite like the fact that they're all sort of secretly quite, I mean...
	Not all of them, but some of them are really quite well off, aren't they?
	Like your grandfather must have been.
	To have that many acres, I mean 5,000.
	Just a little point that's kind of interesting.
	He had five cars in the 1930s when nobody had a car.
	You know, so he was doing well, including, you know, a jaguar and a sunbeam.
	And so, yeah, he was doing very well.
	He was very proud. 5,000 acres in South Yorkshire.
	I mean, OK, it's not as much as down south of North Nottinghamshire, so straddling.
	Yeah. I mean, we're talking what land is now must be about 30,000 an acre, maybe.
	No, no. Ten.
	Ten. Okay. That's still a lot of money.
	But although I've been aware that pesticides could be a problem, I hadn't realised that this is what you call an open secret.
	You're saying lots of farmers get these...
	Yes. But there's a lot of self-denial because they built their whole businesses on it.
	And modern farmers actually don't know how to farm in any other way.
	It's the typical thing.
	You know, my grandfather saw the transition from, you know, shire horses and, you know, small fields and, you know, natural organic farming.
	To this kind of industrial factory farming, which requires lots of external inputs.
	It requires chemicals, it requires fertilizers, it requires diesel, it requires machines.
	None of this was required in pre-war times.
	Basically, you fed your horse on the produce from the land and everybody who worked on the farm had free food.
	They often used to brew their own beer and have their own entertainment.
	And basically you made a little bit of money on top.
	All that changed in the 1950s with the Green Revolution, the chemical revolution.
	The same thing happened in medicine as well.
	Everything got taken over by the petrochemical industry.
	And suddenly it was possible to grow huge amounts of single crops.
	And you didn't need to worry about pests because you could just eradicate them all with these chemicals.
	You didn't need to employ anyone.
	Because when I was a kid, they still sent me out with a hoe and sometimes pulling weeds in a 50-acre field, which is, well, it's like cutting the lawn with a pair of scissors, you know.
	And I think it was part of my dad trying to bring me up tough and all that kind of stuff, you know.
	But the point is, you didn't need to employ anybody anymore, so the wage bills crashed, you know.
	Yes! Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
	I really feel that. That living in the country, I'm acutely aware of how it's mostly old people.
	It's mostly people like me who are semi-retired, who've got luxury jobs where they don't have to go to an office.
	But I think to be young in the country is just mostly so incredibly boring.
	And I think that the only people who are the exception to that rule really are people who are farmers.
	But as you say, there's no farm work anymore for young people because it's all automated.
	So the one thing that might have given meaningful lives to country folk and created communities has been snatched away.
	Absolutely. I mean, it sounds incredible, but I heard that in my grandfather's day, there were over 100 men on the farm.
	Whereas now, well, I mean, 15 years ago, it was not much more than 20 or less than 20.
	Actually, I wouldn't think there's more than a dozen now, to be honest.
	Yeah. And they use satellites.
	The tractors and the machines run themselves.
	It's so high-tech.
	And they have these combines with 40-foot spreads, which means they're cutting a swath of 40 feet.
	At one time, you'd have a row of guys chopping with sides.
	Yeah. And you'd use all, you know, all the manure from the animals, you'd spread, you know, do the muck spreading, and it was a circular thing.
	And you just scraped off a little bit of profit off the top.
	But these days it's all, you know, the idea is big profit.
	But, you know, that's what encouraged farmers to come in.
	I mean, it's not that they are, I'm not suggesting they particularly wanted to use all these chemicals, but that's where the money was.
	And if they didn't go in that direction, they wouldn't be able to compete.
	So that's when, you know, naturally organic farming, which was all farming until the 1950s, just disappeared.
	And presumably, was it the same with the different strain?
	I mean, I remember writing about the Green Revolution favorably in my book Watermelons.
	I now have revised some of my opinions on the technologies that I thought were just unmitigated good.
	Norman Borlaug, with his genetic modifications to wheat and stuff, he's hailed as the father of the Green Revolution.
	But I'm thinking now, actually, what it did is it replaced old strains of wheat and stuff with these kind of new Frankenstein strains.
	Did your grandfather start using those, these new kind of Monsanto-type Well, I can't say.
	I mean, he died in 1957, 1959.
	But, you know, I remember as a child, I've seen this gradual progression.
	I remember as a child, we'd have a shed, you know, near our farm in Yorkshire.
	This shed was just full of seed potatoes.
	So I used to climb up these boxes and they were all under strip lights to stop them sprouting.
	And we kept them over the winter, ready to, you know, we'd lift them in harvest, and then they'd be put in these boxes and kept, so we'd use them the next year.
	But that doesn't happen anymore.
	You buy them in. You buy everything in.
	And, of course, companies like Monsanto are now the seed suppliers, and their idea, I think it looks to me, their idea is to control the whole world's supply.
	So no farmers will be able to access their own seed.
	And it's a general progression towards complete centralised control.
	And this is why it seems to me that farms are being bought up by the likes of Bill Gates and in this country, you know, Dyson, are just buying everything up.
	And in the end, it's just going to be completely corporatised.
	And families like mine will be pushed out of business and they will just become managers of these massive corporate farms, if they have a job at all.
	Yeah, I'm sure that's right.
	I have a lot of sympathy for farmers.
	I mean, they didn't choose the way things have gone.
	It's the way the world's gone.
	It's just like doctors haven't chosen to be in the situation they're in.
	They've been taken there by the course of events, which is corporate, you know, chemical, petrochemical interests.
	I don't want to be rude about your grandfather, but it does sound very much like he was part of the problem.
	He was, but in his defence he wouldn't have known.
	But he started off very small.
	My father's side of the family, they were the complete opposite.
	They were doing well in farming hundreds of years ago and they lost all their money in the depression, which a lot of farmers went bust in the depression.
	My grandfather started off a tenant farmer with almost no land, so he didn't own anything.
	And he worked very hard.
	He was a tough guy.
	I mean, you know, you hear the stories about him.
	I mean, he had one child, my mother, and he comes across as very harsh.
	But, you know, he was a very successful businessman.
	He was an entrepreneur. He made money in the 1930s out of farming when everybody else was going bust.
	How did he do that? Well, I don't know, you know, but, you know, he was no wallflower, let's put it that way.
	I never met the man. He died three years before I was born.
	But, yeah, he's got quite a almost terrifying image, you know.
	I'm not getting the vibe that you've inherited many of his traits.
	Yeah. That's a shame because it could have come in handy for your business life.
	So you got poisoned and so the first time when you were six, were there other occasions after that?
	There were other occasions, because once you've been poisoned, basically your system is sensitized.
	I mean, I could give you a couple of examples.
	You know, I was in India in 1997, traveling around, you know, researching a PhD, which I never did.
	But anyway, I was traveling around India.
	And with my girlfriend and we were camping just near a banana plantation.
	And I just joked to my girlfriend as we were walking back to the tent saying, smells like it did on the farm, you know, these agrochemicals, you know, but I didn't take it too seriously.
	And that night, we both woke up.
	Shaking, and I was vomiting, diarrhea, my whole body went into convulsions, and then I was passing blood for weeks, well probably months, until I got back to England and I went to the Tropical Medicines Hospital in London.
	And they said, oh, it'll be amoebic dysentery and whatever.
	But looking back, it was all the same symptoms of chemical poisoning.
	And then, you know, again, years later, I got into the renovating property business, and I got a guy to come in and treat the property renovated for woodworm.
	And again, I ended up on my hands and knees in the front garden, well, on the toilet initially, vomiting diarrhoea simultaneously.
	I mean, it's really awful, falling off my feet.
	Vertigo and just hyper-enervated you know everything my breasts going my face going I ended up with a rash from my neck down to my torso and you know I couldn't sit down for a few days I was terrified to go to sleep because I had to mechanically move my lungs because once because that's what how pesticides work they fire the on switch But then the off switch doesn't work,
	so they cut off the off switch, either by changing the sodium-potassium balance or by removing acetylcholine acetase.
	I think it's called acetase.
	And what that does, it means you can't switch off the nervous system, so everything revs up.
	Until you literally have a catastrophic burnout.
	That's how nerve agent chemicals work and that's how pesticides work.
	So I was like this, just everything shaking for several days.
	And I really thought I was going to die at that point.
	That was in 2002, in March 2002.
	And I remember that night, just as I say, vomiting, Having to hold myself up against a wall when I went to the toilet, having violent nightmares.
	And then after a few days, I literally, everything switched off.
	My whole metabolism just seemed to switch off.
	And I went into this total fatigue state.
	And I remained there for the next nine years until I found the Bottego Method.
	And did you try other things?
	You must have tried other stuff.
	Everything. There's a video of me on the Poteco website in which I just read out a list of the things I tried.
	And I even trained, even in my, you know, because I had brain fog and all these things, I did a three-year course in nutrition, which I never quite finished.
	Because just before I was going to finish the third year, I found the Buteyko Method.
	And within a week, I knew this was the answer.
	Because I started getting results, dramatic results.
	I felt the best I'd felt in a decade.
	So I never quite finished that course.
	But I experimented with every kind of food, every kind of diet, the Gerson Detox Therapy.
	And, you know, I'm interested in food.
	And I think it makes a little bit of difference.
	But one thing I can assure you, if you're seriously ill, It will not turn that boat around.
	If you want to turn that ship around, you need something much more effective than food.
	Food is a kind of health maintenance thing.
	Unless you haven't got a mineral or a vitamin that you need.
	You should definitely check out the podcast I did recently with Sasha Latipova, who was talking about this.
	She said a lot of awake people are very aware of things like the importance of not eating seed oils, of nutrition and so on.
	But she said, really, all this is doing is kind of alleviating symptoms of a problem which was caused by something much more serious, which is vaccines.
	I mean, by her argument, that we have been so poisoned with vaccines that, yeah, sure, you shouldn't eat peanut oil and stuff, and lots of people have gluten allergies, but these are a product of...
	of vaccination, or in your case, of pesticide toxicity.
	Well, what I was going to say is, of course, I didn't take the vaccine because I know that would have killed me instantly.
	Even if it had been an old fashioned vaccine that was relatively harmless or less harmful, let's put it that way.
	It's now appearing that none of them were very harmless.
	But anyway, you know, even if it had been an early vaccine, I know that injecting chemicals into my sensitive system, that would have been lights out.
	So I was never going to take the vaccine.
	It wasn't a difficult choice for me.
	I was just terrified that we're going to send someone round to my house and hold me down and stick the needle in.
	That was really my concern.
	Yes. I'm quite interested.
	So you must have chucked a lot of money at this problem.
	Everything I had at the time.
	And this is one of the things I'm going to talk about because when my two lovely sisters decided to try and, well, successfully to some degree disinherit me for the crime, it would seem, of not being a farmer, They knew that I was very sick and they knew that I was spending all my money trying to get well and bringing up a small child.
	I have a stepchild that I brought up from being a baby, a Dutch stepchild.
	So they knew I was under a lot of stress and, you know, I was a long way from the farm, 250 miles away.
	So they, you know, they demonised me with the family and, you know, I even had my favourite uncle sending me hate mails.
	All this pressure was put on me.
	And I've forgotten what your question was.
	Oh yes, no, it was because I said did you chuck money at the problem because I've had chronic health conditions and you do.
	You'll do anything to try and get your way out of it because if you're not healthy, if you're not well, nothing else is enjoyable, is it?
	Nothing is enjoyable.
	You can't do anything.
	You can't indulge in any projects.
	You can't think about the future.
	It's all about getting through today.
	It's about getting a meal on the table.
	It's about, can you brush your teeth?
	I remember some days literally thinking, I can't brush my teeth.
	I remember one sitting in a chair with a good friend of mine and saying to her, you know what?
	You know that saying, I can't lift a finger.
	Well, it's actually true.
	I can't lift a finger.
	I'm so weak. And I was sometimes so tired, I couldn't even...
	Verbalised words because I couldn't close my lips or use my tongue.
	I'd end up sounding like a drunk.
	I was so fatigued.
	That's bad. So if you're in that state, you will do anything.
	So if it wasn't for the Bottega Method, well, I would say I've got 80, maybe 90% of my health back now.
	So I will be forever thankful to that man I never met who died in 1982, Professor Bottega.
	And also it's incredibly good value.
	You know, as you say, I spent thousands, tens of thousands, literally tens of thousands over the years on trying to get well with no real benefit.
	Then I got to the Bottega method.
	And back then it was, I think, 400 quid or something to do the beginner's course.
	It's now free. I know.
	I know. Because some people are going to think, oh, he's trying to sell something.
	He's trying to push this product.
	But actually, the weird thing is about our friend Christopher, he's thinking, yeah, you know, I like Partaker.
	I believe in it. But it's not my living.
	I've got other projects.
	So, you know, I'm happy to do free sessions for people who are interested.
	I mean, listeners to this, there will be opportunities to have a, you know, Free sessions.
	But, yeah, I mean, I'm with you on, Bataker.
	It's so weird that something so almost free should be so effective.
	How did you come across it?
	Oh, gosh. I mean, completely by accident.
	Again, you know, who knows if there's someone looking after us.
	Well, there is. Yes.
	Well, I'm becoming open to that idea.
	I was an ardent atheist when I was younger.
	But as I say, the things that have happened To look after me over the last, you know, 10, 20 years that have got me to where I am now, even leaving the farm.
	You know, I was the only son of wealthy farmers.
	I was brought into this world for one purpose, and that's what I'm still being punished for by my sisters, I would say, because I never fulfilled that purpose.
	But you probably would be dead. Yeah.
	If I had left the farm, I'd either be dead or so sick I'd be non-functional.
	And you know you can get so sick that you start thinking, well, time to go.
	I can't live with this. I was going to ask you that.
	Because farmers have always got a shotgun to hand, haven't they?
	Do you think about that?
	Well, I don't have a shotgun to hand, but, you know, because I've lived on the farm as an adult.
	I left the farm when I was 17, went to London, got into transport and whatever.
	But, you know, yes, it's true.
	Farmers have, I think it's the highest suicide rate of any occupation in the country.
	Now, partly it's because of availability, but it's because of chemicals.
	It's this great unspoken thing that no farmer wants to talk about.
	And if you do talk about it, you seem as a traitor.
	Whenever I try to talk to farmers about this problem, it's like...
	You know, it's like, I don't want to hear it, don't want to hear it, you know?
	Because their whole business is based on it.
	Their wealth is based on it.
	But even if you said to them, oh, stop using chemicals, they wouldn't know how to.
	It's too late. That generation that knew how to farm without chemicals are long gone.
	Yes. Yeah, I've seen it myself.
	They'd have to reorganize everything, rethink everything.
	And I think that will happen because there's another problem with using chemicals.
	It kills all the life in the soil.
	You know, it kills the worms, it kills the bugs, it kills the life force that gives the crops life.
	So in other words, you have to keep putting more and more chemicals on and then the insects get...
	Get resistant to the chemicals because they have many, many generations, so they develop resistance.
	Then you have to use stronger chemicals and stronger chemicals.
	We moved from DDT and organochlorines.
	We moved to organophosphates, which are absolutely lethal.
	VX agents are being used to murder people.
	people, you just need to put a little bit of VX on a rag and put it on someone's face, which has happened to Kim Jong-un's brother-in-law, no, half-brother, and they killed him in an airport with a tiny touch of VX agent.
	Well, these organophosphates are used on farms now because what happened was the organochlorines were no longer deadly enough. They needed something more deadly.
	You know, that's what happened.
	So you end up in this crazy spiral.
	It's like taking pharmaceutical drugs.
	You start off with one drug and my father, by the time he died, because he had a stroke not long after I left home, not surprisingly, he had terrible health from chemicals and his skin was almost, you know, used to be stained yellow from the chemicals, anxiety, depression, obesity, all that stuff.
	Had a massive stroke at the age of 55, which is appalling, but not so uncommon on farms.
	But, you know, he...
	Oh, I've lost my thread again.
	That is one thing I'm slightly left with, to be honest.
	Instant recall. I sometimes can't bring things up.
	That's one of the little assets.
	Assets? Well, look, it's amazing that you're, given what you described, it's amazing that you're doing as well as you are.
	So, okay, so you started doing the Botteco, which is, we won't bore people with the details, it's basically breathing exercises.
	Yeah. We're essentially starving yourself of oxygen.
	Well, let's put it the other way.
	Increasing CO2, this demonized gas of life, which everything depends on, including people.
	It's not just the plants that depend on CO2, people also.
	It basically regulates our body.
	That's its job. So if you raise carbon dioxide, you will get healthier.
	You raise it more, you'll get healthier still.
	You keep raising it, and you will keep getting healthier.
	It's as simple as that.
	But as you know, it's really hard work, takes a lot of dedication.
	You go through appalling cleansing.
	I'm not trying to pretend it's easy, and I'm not trying to pretend it's fun, and I'm not trying to pretend it's pleasant.
	It's a horrible process, but the results, nobody complains about the results.
	That's very true. Yeah, yeah.
	That is the catch, isn't it?
	People wonder, okay, if this treatment is so good, where is the catch?
	And the catch is that it's bloody horrible to do.
	Exactly. And it takes a lot of dedication.
	You don't want to do it.
	You have to make yourself... But every time you do it, you go, oh, why didn't I do it two hours ago?
	I felt awful for two hours.
	Finally, I forced myself to do this, and in ten minutes, I feel better.
	So, Christopher, just to repeat, he said that, you know, he'd kind of written you off as a, you know, he said, if this guy pulls through, I'd be amazed.
	So, tell me about how much were you practicing it, first of all?
	And, I mean, you were doing it from dawn till dusk.
	Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	That first couple of, you know, years, certainly that first year.
	I mean, I was just doing pauses.
	All the time. That's what I did with my life basically for that year.
	Survive and do breath control.
	So boring. Yeah, it is.
	But what happened was I had cleanse after cleanse after cleanse and then I had what you call the mega cleanse or I call the mega cleanse, which happened at about the 11th, 12th month.
	So this was in 2011.
	And this cleanse was just off the scale.
	My legs swelled up like balloons, which, you know, the body took on more.
	You know, this was explained to me by Vladimir, the Russian consultant.
	I took on all this water.
	I had this temporary oedema for about a month when I had, like, baby's feet.
	You could see this membrane of my skin with my bones and flesh inside it.
	It was really horrendous.
	I couldn't stand on my...
	And if I stood on my feet, you could feel the fluid under the bones of my feet squelching.
	It was really appalling.
	So... And I just was pinned to a seat.
	I mean, I don't want to get too disgusting, but I had to have a bucket to go to the toilet because I couldn't make it to the toilet, so I had to do everything from a chair.
	And this went on for...
	I don't want to be putting off people for doing it.
	No, no, go on. Give us a... Go on.
	Tell us. I had the worst...
	Chemicals that man has ever created coming through my system and being discharged, obviously.
	So my body was having to re-encounter the original poisoning.
	I felt like I did right back nine years earlier.
	So my body, what happens is when you get poisoned and everybody is poisoned in our society, everybody eats this food or gets spray on the wind or takes vaccines or whatever the way you might get poisoned, everybody's poisoned.
	So everybody who does this method will go through some cleansing.
	Most people, it's very mild.
	You know, they just feel a bit of a flu, whatever, and they're through it.
	But in my case, I had to re-encounter, I had to re-meet these appalling nerve agents.
	And so I had all the same symptoms again, shaking and everything else, and waves of suicidal depression and all this kind of stuff.
	But it does pass.
	I mean, I was six weeks in that state.
	And... And Vladimir spoke to me every day and he used to say things like, I want you to stand up and do steps.
	And he's like, you're kidding. You are kidding.
	I cannot get to my feet.
	I cannot possibly get to my feet.
	But he's so skilled, Vladimir, that he knew how to get to me.
	I remember once he sort of looked into the screen and I was like falling off my chair because I couldn't hold my body up.
	I was so weak. And he said, please, please.
	And he's a very charming man.
	And I just thought, I can't do it for me.
	I can do it for him. I'll do it for him.
	So I sort of got myself to my feet and did these very sort of awkward steps.
	And he got me through that step.
	And then he'll get me through the next step and the next step.
	And then eventually it's like the cleanse passes and my health just goes up another step until you hit the next cleanse.
	And that's how it goes until eventually you you pretty much stop having cleanses.
	You might have very mild ones, but those I haven't had a mega cleanse.
	For, I don't know, eight years or something, since I last had one of those really big ones.
	But for the first couple of years, I had six-week cleanse, followed maybe a couple of months of just building up carbon dioxide, then bang, I'd have another cleanse.
	And so it went. Is the cleanse, is it the same as a Herx reaction, or is that something else?
	Herxheimer reaction. Well, that is just, as I understand it, I'm not a expert, but a Herxheimer reaction is just a name for a cleanse, for a detox.
	So it is, if you like, a turbocharged Herxheimer reaction.
	I would, I mean, don't take my word for it, but that's how you would look at it.
	The baby feet thing sounds gross.
	And you, because of course...
	The solution to these cleansing reactions, you're told by your strict Buteika teacher, is, yes, you must encourage them and do more.
	You must do the very thing that makes the problem worse.
	Yes, yes. You have to go into it to come out of it.
	Yeah. And you have to keep going into it, be willing to go.
	And the deeper you go into it, the more you get out of it.
	It basically, it rewards effort, you know?
	Which, you know, I am a pretty self-disciplined person, so I'm lucky enough.
	I mean, I think some people maybe just don't have so much willpower, but I have willpower.
	And I, you know, I was still relatively young, and I could see that the structure of my body Was fine.
	I mean, I'm 62 now.
	I don't think I'm in bad shape, you know, in terms of structure.
	Yeah. So I just thought all I've got to do is get my metabolism clean and functioning properly.
	And I've got a future. So I had this goal.
	I've just got to find a way to get my metabolism running again.
	I've got to get rid of these chemical blocks because I knew what the problem was.
	I'd done enough research by then.
	I've just got to break out of that.
	And, you know, I can start acting in the world again, getting involved in the world again.
	And I am. I'm back in business and I'm doing things.
	Well, call me old-fashioned, Christopher, but I think that God did not want you to die.
	And he wanted to show you this...
	For, I don't know, what purpose?
	Maybe just, apart from everything else, the people you're bound to...
	There's going to be somebody out there listening to this podcast who's going to try Buteyko.
	I mean, that's not why I'm making the podcast, by the way.
	I just like your story.
	But... You know, there will be at least one person out there who will listen to what you say and will have gone through something like what you're going through and you will have helped them.
	So that in itself will be a reason why you've been kept alive.
	And of course for you, I mean, you know, you can do stuff now that, sorry, not wishing to sound sententious, but I'm really happy.
	Because you could have been, you could so easily have pegged it or topped yourself or whatever.
	Yeah, absolutely. I remember being frightened to go.
	In the early days, I was frightened to go to sleep because, you know, I'd be...
	You know, that's what happens when the body's under incredible stress.
	You just basically breathe out all your carbon dioxide, which is basically, it's a vicious cycle.
	As you breathe more deeply, as you get sicker, you breathe harder, you lose more carbon dioxide, so you get sicker, and then you get sicker, and then you get sicker.
	And you've heard of chain-stoke breathing?
	And this is how I watched my father basically die, with tubes up his nose and all that, in hospital.
	And I was the last of our family to be with him.
	But I watched this, and you could see this chest going like this, going like this.
	And that evening he died.
	Basically, you breathe out your carbon dioxide until there's not enough to sustain life, and then you die.
	So this was happening to me back in the early 2000s, after that particular woodworm treatment poisoning.
	I was breathing, and I kept waking myself up, forcing myself to actually control my breathing, because partly what the problem was is that my lungs would freeze, because it's like the nervous system works in one direction but not the other, so they'd literally just stop moving, so I'd have to mechanically, you know, consciously open my lungs and close them.
	But then the other problem was converse, is as I fell asleep, then the whole breathing would just go wild, and I was going to lose all the carbon dioxide until I died.
	So I had to stay awake.
	So you must have practised mouth taping?
	Not at that point, because I knew nothing about the patekin method.
	I made every mistake.
	Oh, I see. Sorry, yeah. This was 20 years ago, 22 years ago.
	So I didn't know what to do.
	All I knew was just stay alive, basically, and control your breathing in the sense of consciously work the breath, as opposed to just letting your breathing do itself.
	Because it wouldn't do itself, you know.
	So yes, I mean, is the divine providence behind this?
	As I say, as an aggressive atheist back in my youth, you know, my mother used to jokingly tell the story that I told a friend of mine when I was five years old, that Father Christmas doesn't exist and God doesn't exist either.
	So I decided very young there was no such thing.
	But I would say, over the last...
	It's been a few years and it's been building.
	I'm definitely open to the idea of...
	I even did a degree in my late 20s, sorry, early, sorry, yeah, late 20s, early 30s in religious studies.
	But I focused on the Indian religions, the meditation and all that kind of stuff.
	But as time has gone, I know about all your story and whatever, and I'm not just saying this to be a sycophant.
	Hopefully I'm not saying it to be a sycophant at all.
	But I have come to the sense somehow that there is a power that has looked after me all these years, because I didn't know how to get where I am now.
	Things just came to me.
	You know, I moved from Somerset.
	I was living in Somerset.
	And, you know, my Dutch partner went back to Holland and whatever.
	And I thought, where am I going to go now?
	And I ended up on the coast because I wanted the fresh sea air.
	So I went down to East Sussex.
	And that's where I bumped into someone.
	This was one of your earlier questions.
	A young woman who said, I was on a shiatsu course, training out to do shiatsu, yet another thing.
	And she said, you know, the real thing made a difference to me.
	It was the partaker method. She said, you know, I had chronic fatigue and all these things.
	And I just thought, this very pleasant woman has nothing to gain by telling me this.
	So I just, you know, I sort of cornered her after the workshop and just kept saying, you know, asking her questions.
	And a week later, I was on the beginner's workshop in Brighton.
	And if I hadn't gone to Somerset, I never would have found the Patekin Method.
	And because the Patekin Method has no money in it, nobody really makes any money.
	People barely earn a living out of it.
	It has no advertising.
	It has no support.
	You know, I mean, you're never going to get any therapy that actually works is never going to get any finance because all therapies have to fail.
	They have to lead to more therapy.
	That's a good point.
	Yeah, the pharmaceutical industry is just about you take this drug and then you take another drug and another drug and then you end up like my father on a dozen different drugs.
	And it costs a fortune.
	But nobody gets well.
	With the partaker method, you take less...
	I mean, I've never taken pharmaceutical drugs, but on the partaker method, people are invited to consider whether they need to keep taking their drugs.
	Obviously, they have to do it through their doctors and stuff.
	We, you know, partaker people never tell them that.
	But, you know, they gradually can come off their pharmaceuticals and they can manage their own health.
	And of course, there's no money in that.
	Once someone is well, They're worth nothing.
	They're worth nothing to industry.
	So, you know, we are the opposite.
	Well, I say we, but the Bateka world, which I went into, is the opposite to a business, really.
	It's not a business.
	It's a wisdom. It's a gift, somehow, that Bateka found.
	A gift from nature. And if you can master it, and of course it goes back to ancient times, to ancient India.
	They all knew about controlling the breath and how that led to mental and physical health.
	They knew about it in the Vedas 10,000 years ago.
	Yeah. It's very old. Skinny Buddha.
	Yeah. He was clearly doing the...
	Well, yeah, by not eating, you're improving your breathing.
	Well, you see, this is the connection.
	So I know not everyone involved in Bateko is a Christian, but I find it very interesting that Jesus talks about the importance of prayer and fasting.
	And Bateko method does involve quite a bit of Fasting, or at least, you know, you're told not to eat unless you have appetite, for example.
	And I remember when I was doing it years ago, I became skeletal.
	It was really quite freaky, actually.
	There's a photograph of me, which I don't like at all, which is circulated sometimes, of me in my swimming trunks, standing by a river, And I wasn't even aware at the time of how skeletal I looked.
	But looking back, it is absolutely gross.
	It's not how one is meant to be.
	But it was part of my, I guess, part of my healing process.
	Yeah, well, all the fat stores.
	It's where the body stores toxins in the fat so they don't affect the vital organs.
	So the fat is where the toxins are.
	Therefore, the body is going to process that toxic fat because that's the only way to clean yourself.
	I mean, like you, I went down to, I think at my lowest, I went to 43 kilograms.
	You know so I did look as if I just spent you know the second world war in Belsen or something.
	Yes that is quite because yeah I think I'm sixty I'm 63 at the moment.
	How tall are you?
	Pretty short. I'm 5'7".
	5'7". Okay, yeah.
	Well, you're roughly the same height as me.
	So yeah, I mean, that is quite skinny.
	Before we go on, this is just an in question.
	What's your longest ever pause?
	Well, I'll tell you something I said to Christopher recently, and I wasn't going to tell him because, I don't know, I'm never going to do it again.
	But I was talking about a technique.
	All right, I'll just answer your question first.
	The longest pauses I did were during my first year.
	You know, when I was just working my backside off.
	And I used to do pauses until I had to run to the toilet because if you raise your carbon dioxide enough, everything opens up.
	Everything opens instantly.
	Yeah, it's not a side effect.
	So yeah, I always hit a wall at 2 minutes 20 seconds.
	Yeah. Now, I don't know.
	I never got to two and a half minutes.
	But interestingly, the other day, I found this technique of doing belly pulls while holding my breath and then holding, pulling the muscle between your anus and your crutch, your scrotum.
	But anyway, you hold it really tight.
	Which is actually, someone told me, is a tantra technique.
	Not that I know anything about that.
	But anyway, someone told me about it years ago.
	So I do this belly pulling, tightening the belly muscles, tightening, tightening, tightening.
	Because I have a hernia. And I've been told that I might be able to sort my hernia out by doing this.
	So that's why I started it.
	So I'm pulling, taking carbon dioxide to that area of my body, to the belly.
	To the groin. And then holding, holding, holding.
	And I would do that for about half an hour, 40 minutes.
	And then I would get up and do steps.
	And you know one step is roughly worth one second, maybe slightly more even.
	Well, I did this. I built this up over weeks and weeks and weeks.
	And then I had this target in my head.
	I thought, is it possible to do 200 steps?
	Is it possible? I thought, it can't be possible.
	But during this technique, I got to 160 steps.
	And I thought, let's keep going, let's keep going.
	And it was this little target I had, and I think about two months ago, I finally hit it.
	I hit 200 steps.
	And I was so... Once you've held your breath for that long and done exercise at the same time, I mean, you do lally, you're out of your mind.
	You know, I cut my hand because I banged it against furniture.
	You become all uncoordinated.
	But you just know that if you can pull it off, you're going to challenge your immune system to do something dramatic.
	And, of course, what happened was I hit the 200 seconds.
	I've never hit it again since.
	The next day, I could hardly do any at all.
	And, of course, I was like, oh, because I've triggered my immune system to release some more toxin.
	So it's worth it, but it's appallingly grueling, you know.
	But anyway, so in answer, a long answer to your question, I hit 200 steps.
	I will probably never do it again.
	So that's equivalent of three minutes, 20 seconds, which is good.
	But they do recommend you shouldn't really ever hold your breath more than three minutes because, you know, there are these crazy, I just probably ought to say this, there are these crazy people who do this free diving stuff.
	Yeah, yeah, I quite fancy that.
	No, I shouldn't do it.
	I've talked a lot about it to Vladimir, you know, the Russian consultant.
	And what they do is they do this hyperventilating first to get rid of all the carbon dioxide.
	Oh, do they? So they've emptied themselves of the nectar of the thing that you most need to be well.
	And then they go down on the chain.
	And of course they can hold their breath for ages because you've got to fill up all this...
	All this carbon dioxide that you just need to survive.
	And you can actually drive yourself bonkers with it.
	I think you can actually damage your brain.
	So this idea of getting rid of all your carbon dioxide and then suddenly increasing it by holding your breath for five or six minutes is just stupid.
	Oh, okay. No one in the Takeo world would recommend you do that.
	Three minutes would be the absolute limit.
	And you don't need to hold your breath for three minutes.
	Two minutes is enough for most people.
	Absolutely. Two minutes is a top number for most people.
	You'll get any result with two minutes.
	So, you did all this clever stuff and you stopped yourself dying.
	Yeah. But then, what you haven't been able to do is sort out your financial life.
	This is interesting.
	The other day, quite recently actually, I get sent these things from Instagram and stuff.
	There was a guy talking about trusts.
	And setting up a trust sounded to me from this thing like a really good idea.
	Like you set up a trust and you can declare, you and your fellow trustees can declare what the terms of the trust are and it protects you and it's a kind of get out of jail for you for all sorts of situations.
	So I was quite interested to hear of your travails Your experiences of trusts have been slightly different.
	I mean, you could be right now, you could be rolling in it, couldn't you?
	Because your mum left a lot of money to you and your sister.
	Well, obviously she was the only child of this bloke who owned 5,000 acres.
	Yeah, yeah. Well, I would say my father, give him credit, he doubled the size of farm in his lifetime.
	So it wasn't all Joe Cam.
	Okay. But it cost him his health and his life, ultimately.
	That's the price he paid, you know.
	But nevertheless, you should be sitting pretty right now.
	True. But you ain't.
	If I'd stayed at home and been a farmer, I was set up for life, and I knew that.
	But as I say, I had a sense that this is not a healthy business.
	You know, I saw so many middle-aged farm workers, and of course my father, incredibly sick and dying young, dying in middle age, or getting cancer, getting neurological illnesses, Parkinson's disease.
	You look in almost any modern farming family, You know, half the children, if not all the children, will have one of these conditions, chronic fatigue syndrome, whatever.
	So, you know, I saw all of this.
	And who knows? I mean, how consciously did I know it?
	But I had this sense that this is not good for me.
	So I left home at 17, went to London, you know, got a transport business going, did okay, you know, got into property development and stuff.
	I did okay. I mean, didn't make a lot of money, but I did okay.
	You know, no complaints.
	And, you know, but my sisters had a very different attitude.
	Their attitude was, he's out of the way, he didn't farm, we'll have what he's got.
	We'll take everything. But I wasn't, you know, they even said it to me.
	They said, you deserve nothing.
	Both my sisters, I have two sisters, said, you deserve nothing.
	So, you know, they weren't hiding the fact.
	And, you know, during the 80s and 90s, they sort of grabbed all the land and farms and whatever.
	But it sort of, it came, the conflict, and I just kind of ignored all this.
	I wasn't interested. I was doing my own thing.
	We got to 2004, and...
	My sisters offered to buy my shareholding in the farm, which, you know, they couldn't steal that.
	It was 22%. And so I said, yeah, okay, I'm interested.
	I'm not going to be a farmer. And my sisters then offered me 10% of what the shares were worth.
	Because it's easy. It's very easy to value a farm.
	Farmland has a value in every area.
	You can look it up online. We know what the price of land is, and it's mainly land.
	So I knew what the farm was worth.
	They offered me 10%.
	So next thing you know, we're in a legal battle.
	And they stretched this legal battle out for seven years, knowing I was really sick.
	Knowing I had limited resources, they had all this money behind them.
	Knowing I was ill and spending all my money trying to get myself well and also under stress looking after a child while still and everything else, they knew all this.
	So I think they thought that either I'd drop dead and they'd just get it all, Or I'd just be so sick and exhausted I'd just finally give up.
	Well, it was the latter. We got to 2011.
	I couldn't go on with it.
	I finally got an answer from my solicitor who said, if you lose this case, basically it's going to cost you everything you've gotten more.
	So I would have been not only sick but also destitute.
	So basically I had to agree to their terms and they bought me out for a fraction of what my...
	It sounds like you owed 22% and you got 10%.
	So that's less than half.
	I did better than that.
	I got less than half. I got less than half.
	But still, you know, I'm not complaining.
	There are people out there who inherit nothing.
	So, you know, I got a good wedge of money.
	And, you know, I was able to buy some property and get going again.
	And of course, this coincided with my health improving.
	So, you know, I kind of, I didn't bear a grudge against my sisters at that point.
	I just thought, okay, that wasn't a nice thing to do.
	That was, in fact, a very nasty thing to do.
	But I wanted to be part of the family again.
	I wanted to relate to their, you know, I had a good relationship prior to the court case with my nephews and nieces, their children.
	My mother was now decadent.
	Declining health. So I was traveling from the South Coast to North Nottinghamshire every six weeks to help look after my mother because she was paralyzed by this point.
	So for 10 years, I was back in the family.
	I went for Christmas dinner.
	You know, we exchanged presents.
	It was all hunky dory.
	And I just, typical of me, I just forgot what they did.
	But I didn't know while all this was going on, they were working with the same clever solicitors who had held me at bay.
	Obfuscation, you know, delaying tactics.
	They'd held me at bay for seven years.
	We couldn't get a valuation for the land because they wouldn't let us get a valuation for the land.
	They kept finding a reason why whoever I suggested was the wrong person.
	So they held me at bay for seven years.
	So what was happening is they employed this same company, Brown Jacobson, who are a top company.
	I mean, given their due, they're good at their job.
	They're very good at their job.
	That's a recommend. Yeah, there's a recommendation.
	I could not afford Bear Eagle.
	But anyway, during these 10 years when we were playing happy families and I was very happy to have my family again and I was looking after my mother and everything else, I was happy.
	I had got some money and I was doing okay.
	But then I knew that there was one last asset that I had in common with my sisters, and this was this 50-50 trust that my mother had set up in 1987.
	Very simple settlement, basically 400 acres of land split between my middle child, which is me, and my youngest child, which is my sister Mary.
	That's it, 50 each.
	And I, like most people, I thought trusts, well, the clue's in the name.
	We trust them to look after our money to protect the vulnerable from the strong.
	So I just never crossed my mind that my sisters would be able to undermine it with the use of these clever lawyers.
	But you have to remember, my younger sister is an ex-Arthur Anderson chartered accountant.
	Now, Everybody knows Arthur Anderson went bust because of the Enron scandal, which was the biggest financial scandal in history at the time.
	Now, my sister wasn't involved in that.
	I'm not suggesting that. But, you know, she's been trained in the dark arts.
	She knows what she's doing.
	And she was able to to buy in the best, the best help, you know, other accounting firms, lawyers, land agents, all of it.
	There's a whole team of people she employed against little old me.
	And basically, they reorganized the trust.
	The whole architecture of the trust was twisted out of all recognition.
	They set up new companies, new entities.
	They swapped assets.
	They bought and sold land.
	They swapped shares.
	They created new beneficiaries, what they call the appointed class.
	So they made my sister's children all became new beneficiaries, effectively.
	How can that be possible?
	Where you wouldn't believe. So I thought a trust.
	Who were the trustees?
	There's already one of the complications.
	It's so complicated. I've got to try and keep this simple.
	Otherwise, people are just failing.
	It's boring. You see, my sisters led me to believe that they were the trustees.
	Now, it turns out that they were not the trustees.
	They created two trustee companies.
	I found this out because once they basically blocked me getting any money out of the trust, which they promised me was mine, when I asked for it, they basically put all these legal obstacles in front of me.
	But once they did that, I started looking on Companies House, on the land registry, and started looking at the history of what had happened, because it's all there.
	You know, well, basically, in 2015, they set up these two trust companies, which would become the trustees.
	So my elder sister, who was a trustee at the time, handed over her trusteeship.
	To these companies. And my younger sister, who has never been a trustee, becomes a trustee by proxy because they set up these companies and they made themselves the directors of these companies.
	Ah, okay. It's brilliant.
	It's brilliant. No, they never even mentioned they were setting these companies up.
	They hid it all from them. But were you not a trustee?
	No, I was a beneficiary.
	I was never a trustee. Okay.
	So they did all this without telling me.
	And it's a brilliant plan because if you set up two trust companies, which is perfectly legal, there's nothing...
	I doubt my sisters have done anything illegal because they know how to go right up close to the wind without actually...
	Flipping over. So they set up these two companies, and it allows them to be trustees by proxy, because they own the companies, they are the directors.
	So they've still got all the powers of trustees, but they've got none of the responsibilities, none of the liabilities.
	It's brilliant. Well, you'd like to tell me what your trust is supposedly worth?
	Well, yes, I certainly can, yeah.
	A lot of money. I mean, when my mother set it up, it was probably, you know, this 440 acres, probably worth about a million quid in 1987.
	Well, what happened, and I was involved in all these negotiations, The trust sold 25 acres for building.
	And this is just the...
	Ah, yes.
	That's when it goes through the roof.
	When land becomes a lot more okay.
	Because I was thinking 400 acres is not that...
	I mean, it's what? 10,000 times 400 is 4 million, isn't it?
	Yeah, well, they sold the land.
	The headline price was 11 million for this 25 acres.
	But after, I mean, there's an awful lot of, you know, bungs you've got to give, you've got to pay environmental this, and you've got to...
	And then certain good things that you couldn't disagree with.
	You've got to pay for local schools to be built, and quite a lot of expenses involved in selling land for building.
	But by the time you've paid all those expenses, you're down to about 7 or 8 million, which I was supposed to have 50% of.
	And, you know, I kept getting, you know, they were very sneaky.
	My sisters kept sending me emails.
	Here's the figure due to you, they kept saying, or due to JHM, which is my initials.
	They sent me accounts that all looked, you know, very, they never sent me full trust accounts.
	I never received trust accounts, but they sent me partial accounts.
	With sort of some figures and saying how much I was due to get.
	And they led me to believe that all I had to do was basically give them a ring and say, you know, could you send me X amount?
	And it wasn't until the middle of last year that I rang them up and said, you know, could do with 500,000.
	I'm trying to get a business going.
	And they knew exactly what I was doing.
	I'm setting up a trading business.
	Could do with the investment.
	I'd even spoken to people, business people, saying, I've got this money.
	I had no reason to doubt this money was mine.
	Even the family accountant just basically said, this money is going to be dispersed to you.
	And even more interesting, my younger sister paid £800,000 on my share, and then I haven't received a penny.
	She never gave me the money on which the tax was levied.
	I mean, have you ever heard of it?
	So you paid the tax, £800,000.
	Yeah, yeah. That's about the worst thing, isn't it?
	You need to have to imagine it.
	Imagine paying tax on profits that you never had a penny of.
	Is that the deal? That's the situation we're in.
	And they've got the same lawyers doing the same thing they did before.
	You know, we've written them, you know, I've written letters to them, you know, I've spoke to lawyers and, you know, and I've laid out all my grievances and what are, you know, what are the principles of a trust and they've broken every principle.
	They've broken every principle you trust.
	But the lawyers just keep blocking me.
	They just either try and take it onto irrelevances, little legal irrelevances, or they say, oh, you don't have a right to this money for this and this reason.
	And then when you read between the lines, it's like, oh, I don't have an automatic right.
	I can't force them to give me the money.
	Something like that. So you can't say you have a right.
	Well, it's still my money.
	So it's the same techniques.
	What they're trying to do is slow me down, slow me down, slow me down, hoping that either I'll drop dead and the money will come to their children.
	And I love their children.
	I care about their children.
	I want their children to do well.
	But I want the money to come to me first, and it's my choice.
	Yeah. That sounds reasonable.
	And I also have a stepson, and I'd like him to be okay as well.
	Yeah. And I don't trust.
	I mean, they, of course, know everything about my stepson.
	But if I was dead, I don't trust that my sisters would give a lot of money to my stepson in Holland.
	I really don't think they would.
	No, they wouldn't, because it's not blood, and that's not how people think.
	Exactly. I have to say that you seem remarkably unangry, given...
	I mean, you've taken it pretty well, because that could have, apart from anything else, it could have really triggered all your symptoms again, no?
	Well, as I say, I'm never going to let...
	Until the day I die, one day I will lose control of my breath.
	They will be my dying moments.
	But I am just too aware of the risk of letting my breathing collapse.
	And if I don't let my breathing collapse, I won't get symptoms.
	Okay. Simple as that. So what we've established in this episode are farmers are...
	They're destroying the nature with their pesticides and killing themselves and in denial about it.
	You've got lawyers who are supposed to administer...
	Justice are actually not doing it by anyone's lights.
	I mean, not what you or I would think of as justice.
	Accountants are basically evil servants of Enron and similar institutions.
	Is there anything you can do?
	I mean, it just seems wrong to me.
	Just like morally wrong.
	I mean, you know I believe in God.
	I kind of think that there is a kind of natural order of things and a kind of, yeah, that this shouldn't happen.
	Well, part of my reason for, you know, being very happy that you've asked me to do this, you know, is firstly, don't make the mistake I made of automatically trusting your family.
	You know, keep an eye on what's going on.
	I mean, sometimes I've got myself to blame.
	Joe, lots of people, lots of people.
	Where money's concerned, Like, I won't tell you the story, but, you know, my dad was stood to inherit quite a lot of money, which he did not get for various complicated reasons.
	You know, I'd be sitting a lot prettier than I am right now if that hadn't been.
	So lots of people are going to be watching this and going, Joe, we've been there.
	Where money is concerned, you can't really trust.
	Even your nearest and dearest, you have to be careful.
	But yeah, carry on.
	Well, that's one thing.
	Keep your eyes open.
	Don't just blindly trust.
	Find out what's going on. And demand to be kept informed.
	Demand to be kept informed. But also the next thing, you know...
	What I find very interesting is that I am actually appealing through your platform, through your generous offer to do this, I am appealing to the public opinion, you know, in a sense.
	And I'm just wondering, I wonder if Through appealing, if you like, to fairness and justice through a medium like this.
	I mean, Farage was a good example.
	Do you remember when Farage got debanked?
	What did he do? He went straight onto social media and basically said, look, this is what's happened to me.
	Next thing you know, they're running saying, OK, you know, you know.
	Yeah, I can't go with that example because I think he's a wrong one.
	I think he's controlled opposite.
	I think that was all for the show.
	But you're different. You're a real person.
	And I tell you one thing will happen.
	I'll tell you one thing that will happen.
	People, the Christians among my audience, will pray for you.
	And that will make a big difference.
	They will pray that...
	I know you're not there yet, but they will pray that maybe God softens the hearts of your sisters or gives their lawyers a conscience.
	No, that's not going to happen. Gives their lawyers a conscience.
	No way. But something will happen.
	I don't know what. But...
	Yeah, anyway, carry on.
	What else do you think? What else?
	Well, again, you know, I don't...
	10 years ago, I'd have thought what you're saying is absurd.
	I don't now. No, it's real.
	Don't ever tell Chris, but I do pray, actually, because this idea, I think it's very humbling for a start to pray to a greater power, to pray to God, let's call it God, because...
	In that way, you can never feel something, because, you know, these people that were, and I'm not talking about my sisters here, but, you know, the society, these people who are now trying to, it would appear, take over the world into some great corporate technocracy, these people are people who think of themselves as God.
	They do not humiliate themselves.
	They do not humble themselves.
	They do not put themselves on their knees and say, please help me.
	Well, it is interesting that whenever I have done that, and I have done it if I look back, Through this whole past 20-odd years, even not being a believer, when nothing else worked.
	I remember once, well, it must be 20 years ago, getting on my knees and saying, please, either kill me or show me the way.
	And guess what?
	Sooner or later. Well, you see, there you go.
	You're admitting something which you've known all along, but you've been conveniently forgetting.
	The problem is...
	I've got a smart little annoying mind which thinks it knows everything.
	So I've got this clever mind and I've got another side of myself which is very trusting.
	And they battle all the time.
	And my clever mind says there can't be a God for this, this and this.
	There's no rational reason. And my trusting mind, which I used to think was just superstition, because I've always been a bit superstitious, Is actually going, I believe all of this.
	Everyone has the same internal battle, Crystal.
	I can just tell you one thing.
	I am not in this business of, you know, promoting...
	My beliefs or whatever.
	Because I didn't turn to Christianity because I suddenly wanted to be all pious and maybe not be able to any more lust after women who weren't my wife and to put on a hair shirt and because I really like going to church on Sundays and because...
	No. The reason I'm a Christian is because this stuff is real and it works and God is real.
	That's why. Otherwise there'd be no point.
	It'd be stupid. It'd be arsy, wouldn't it?
	It'd be like, I don't know, just needlessly putting yourself through the mill when it doesn't work.
	But it really does work.
	And I'm really happy that the glimpse you've afforded me of your, you know, you actually did.
	Now you've admitted it.
	You've made your confession that you asked for God's help.
	And look what happened. So it's real.
	So, people are going to pray for this trust nonsense, which sounds...
	I mean, there's no point talking any more about it, is it?
	Because, like, there's nothing we could...
	Well, are you going to be able to...
	Have you got the case for an appeal or anything?
	Because if they've got clever lawyers...
	Well, yes, I mean, I can and might well go down the legal route, but I just know that's going to be super expensive.
	It's going to take a hell of a long time.
	And, you know, I'll win.
	The point is I will win, just as I would have won over the shares 20 years ago.
	But this is clearer cut.
	They've broken every principle of trust law.
	So they will lose, but they're counting on either me Running out of money or running out of energy for it or, as I say, dropping dead, but they probably don't realise how well I am now.
	So I'm not about to drop dead.
	Unlikely, who knows? But I don't think so.
	So, you know, I haven't ruled out the legal route, but I'd prefer not to.
	You know, I'd much... It's feasible, but...
	You know, especially with all the things that are going on in the world.
	By the time we sort that out, we could be living in some kind of Western tyranny where money isn't worth anything anymore and it's all gone anyway.
	It's all turned to CBDC. It's okay.
	You'll own nothing, but you will be happy.
	I've heard this from a reliable source.
	I just want to say, the joke is as well, that my sisters don't get, and I've even said it to them, but I don't think they get it, is if the worst happens, we have complete economic collapse and whatever in the West, which is looking on the cards, If I get my money, it might be me that's looking after their children and not them because they are so conservative.
	They'll have all their money in the bank or in land.
	They might lose the whole lot and I will be supporting my family.
	They don't realize that, you know, I mean, I already put something aside for my sister and I told her this a few years ago and she just sort of shunned, you know, shooed it off as if it was nothing.
	But the point is, is I might be their supporter one day.
	They might actually, it might make sense for them, even financially, to not cut me out.
	It's a dumb thing to do because I'm not stupid.
	I know what's going on. And I think my, certainly my younger sister, she has an inkling, but she's just so, she's so entrenched in Britain.
	And of course, her children are there, her two businesses, a farm and a brewery, everything's there.
	She can't face the reality that we're hitting a wall in the West and it's all going to be lost.
	Well, we'll pray for them.
	And you pray for them, because they really hate that word.
	You pray for them, they really do.
	It's the best weapon.
	Anyway, can I give you a bit of advice, though?
	If you have a reunion with your sisters at the airport and they come holding a handkerchief in front of them and try and put it on your face, don't let them.
	Yes, yes.
	Word to the wise.
	Yes, exactly. I'll go the way of a Korean dictator.
	It's been great talking to you.
	Do you have any websites or anything or things that you don't have to?
	No, not particularly.
	I mean, I've got a business website and whatever, but we're not doing anything particularly yet.
	We're building the platform.
	We're working towards something that hasn't been launched yet.
	And anyway, that's nothing to do with this.
	Trust me. Well, you don't have to trust me.
	I'm just saying it. I could be wrong.
	Something good will come with this.
	I'm sure it will. I've really enjoyed talking to you.
	And I like your story.
	makes me happy that that that you know you that you came back from the brink and that you seem like a nice chap and not not not bitter which is great nice pointless being bitter isn't it it only makes me Yeah, but lots of people would be.
	So thank you for coming on the podcast, and thank you for being a bit different from my usual fare.
	I hope people have enjoyed it.
	um and if you have enjoyed it or even if you well actually no yeah if you obviously if you have enjoyed it um consider supporting me on my um subscribe style sub stack sub stack is probably my favorite locals patreon uh you can buy me a coffee but that doesn't get you early access whereas you sign up to the other stuff you get you get myself a week earlier and you probably get other perks as well i haven't thought what the perks might be yet but there probably will be some Anyway, thank you again, Joe.
	It's been really good talking to you, and I hope you have...
	Well, I hope I meet you someday, and I hope you get better, and you get your money.
	I hope you're just sisters.
	I hope their hearts soften.
	That would be a real bonus and thank you very much and I'm very happy to meet you finally because I've watched your podcast.
	It's great. Going back to 2016 actually, I read your article on anthropogenic global warming.
	Oh yeah, that was the beginning of my journey.
	I've been following you since then.
	Well, I'm doing the revised edition of Watermelons very soon.
	I'm just tinkering with the final, well, final chapter anyway, and it will be out, you know.
	I'm hoping in time for Christmas.
	Great talking to you. I'm going to have my coffee now.
	It's night time where you are, isn't it?
	So have a beer on me.

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