Leo has been working in field conservation and the illegal wildlife trade for over 20 years with a large focus on rescue and rehabilitation of primates and indigenous Bornean wildlife.https://www.projectborneo.org/↓ ↓ ↓If you need silver and gold bullion - and who wouldn't in these dark times? - then the place to go is The Pure Gold Company. Either they can deliver worldwide to your door - or store it for you in vaults in London and Zurich. You even use it for your pension. Cash out of gold whenever you like: liquidate within 24 hours. https://bit.ly/James-Delingpole-Gold
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I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest but before we meet him a quick word from one of our superb sponsors.
James here.
Welcome to the DelingPod with me, James DelingPod.
And I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest.
But before we meet him, a quick word from one of our superb sponsors.
James here.
A quick word about gold and silver.
Now, I've been talking about two companies on my podcast for quite some time.
The Pure Gold Company which delivers gold and silver bullion either to your doorstep or it will store it in a vault for you.
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Now, if you'd paid attention to these suggestions, let's call them, when I started talking about it, you would have made a mint, almost.
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I think regardless of the fluctuations in the market, gold and silver are things you should be owning.
I'm not a financial expert, but I own gold myself.
I own silver myself because I think that it is a hedge.
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Welcome to the Deling Pod, Leo Biddle.
This is the first time I've seen your face, even though we've been following each other on Twitter for a while.
Don't know why, but it seems to have worked out well.
I know that you are a conservationist.
I know that you...
One of the good people, rather than an environmentalist who I think are the baddies.
You live in Sarawak, in Borneo, and you work with sort of sick orangutans and other things.
But tell me more about yourself.
Give me your potted bio first.
So I've been in Borneo for the last 20 years and actually I work all over the island, Indonesia and Sarawak.
Only really the last four and a half years I've just been based in Sarawak.
My charity took a massive hit over the lockdown so it kind of destroyed us frankly and then I could only really concentrate our support of one centre whereas historically we used to work with multiple centres and work across the island.
So, yeah, I mean, I work on assisting typically international charities, but also government agencies to rescue endangered wildlife where possible to rehabilitate it and put it back out into the wild.
And that's, you know, obviously quite a famous part of what people do with orangutan.
But we also work with anything that's on the endangered list, bears, monkeys, deer, anything and everything that has a protected status.
And where possible, we try to rehabilitate all of those animals and return them to the wild.
And these are typically animals that are confiscated from illegal pet trade or from wildlife markets.
Unfortunately, a lot of animals have been kept in human captivity for a long period of time, particularly intelligent mammals like bears or orangutan.
If they've been with humans for too long then they just get too habituated to us and you can never really release them into the wild.
So a natural side part of doing this line of work is you end up running animal sanctuaries that just get bigger and bigger and bigger if you're able to keep the animals alive.
Which creates a massive sort of like funding crisis, you know, in year one, maybe I needed £10,000 a year.
In 2019, I needed about £50,000 a year to run the scope of the organization.
And obviously the last four years have done quite a lot of damage.
But although we're a UK registered charity, Project Borneo, I never really appealed for fundraising.
I never really wanted to compete against other charities and take donatable money away from them.
So over the last 20 years, I built 13 non-profit businesses and slash projects from bars, hotels, plastic recycling company, organic farms, and I would use the money that I raised from those businesses to fund the charitable activities that we were involved in.
Wow, that's really good.
Because you know what?
When I heard about your work, I was thinking, there must be some I mean, we've got some really lovely viewers and listeners.
It's a really, I hate to use the word community, but it is a lovely community.
Really generous, good people.
And I was thinking, some of them must be loaded.
Some of them must like the idea of giving money to, well, somebody like you, whose, you know, the impression I get is you're kind, you're genuine.
That your work, if people give to your, To your project.
It's not going to be spent on diversity and sustainability initiatives.
It's actually going to go on saving orangutans.
One of the great advantages of having those non-profit businesses, which are essentially businesses that I own, and after I've paid the tax on what I've earned, then it's up to me to do what I want with my money.
My money has always been spent on trying to help as many animals as I can, and also children, like one thing that we moved into in the last 10 years,
was partnering or sistering with organizations or just small groups not even necessarily formal entities that were working with children with disabilities which in the developing world is still a bit of a taboo subject there's a lot of perhaps the parent has been cursed and that there's almost almost there is a high level of shame associated with children that might be you know
have a class autism or on the Down syndrome spectrum and there's not many opportunities for those children so it was great having you know the access and the freedom of it being my money to put it wherever I wanted and of course a lot of it went towards the animal but we also started branching out into companion animals like dogs and cats shelters recycling initiatives anything that we thought was kind of genuinely beneficial to welfare of humans or animals.
That guy in Thailand gets all the publicity, doesn't he?
He does!
Yeah, his name keeps popping up.
Is it Niall or something?
Someone asked me to investigate him a while ago.
But I want to stress, I took a look and I was like, I don't think there's anything else for me to look into there.
He looks legitimate to me and I don't want to be... Oh, he is legit.
I mean, he gets on TV, doesn't he?
With Ben Fogel or somebody like that.
Some sort of... I just like some of that...
Magic to rub off on you.
Because, you know, tell me about orangutans.
Apparently they're quite vicious.
I mean, you don't want them as pets, like in Clyde, like in Every Which Way But Loose.
They can rape you and stuff.
That's completely true.
Yeah, no one warns you about that when you first start getting involved in them, but it's absolutely true.
A number of my colleagues have been sexually assaulted.
I've managed to dodge it so far.
But yeah, particularly once they move out of adolescence into sexual maturity, the males in particular, part of their existence in the wild is you have two body morphs of orangutan.
You have a dominant male orangutan that's very muscular and large and heavy and extremely powerful.
They can weigh about 100, 110 kilos.
Now, they're so heavy they can't chase the females.
They have to rely on their good looks, shall we say, and the females will seek them out.
But you also have sexually mature adult males that aren't in the dominant form that will force coitus as reproduction strategy in the wild.
But when these things are reared around humans, particularly if they're heavily habituated, like, you know, putting nappies on them, being passed around and interfacing with humans a lot, Because they're so intelligent.
Because, you know, in many ways, aesthetically, they're similar to us.
They tend to start sexually preferring humans.
And when they're young and not sexually mature, it doesn't manifest as such a big problem.
But once they cross puberty, it's a big problem.
Whoa.
I bet someone's going to watch that.
You can grab it if you need to, James.
Yeah, I'm a bit... Hang on.
Hello?
No, it's not.
You tried this the other day.
There's nobody who lives there with that name.
Bye.
The one thing I was...
The one thing I was going to add, James, about the advantage of running the non-profit businesses is we got the UK charitable status because I run tourism and volunteer programs at the centres that I was involved in, getting people to kind of help build new centres or, you know, get involved in things like enrichment or maintenance at the centres.
They wouldn't work directly with the animals, but occasionally people would want to donate money to what we were doing.
So I set up the charitable service, but because I had those non-profit businesses, everything admin, including the cost of my staff, everything administrative, I paid from the businesses.
So if anyone donated anything, it would 100% go with no deductions to whatever they wanted it to go to.
And you know, a lot of people say, we're happy for you to choose, but it would always go directly on animal.
Related things with zero admin charge for the operation of the charity itself.
Except, Nia, do you think we've kind of ruined your chances now?
Because people might have been thinking, I love orangutans because I've seen those two Clint Eastwood films and they're great.
And now that they've heard that in real life they're actually kind of rapey creatures, they might think, well I'm not going to save this sodding It is certainly true that when the charities are fundraising from the public, they don't show pictures of dominant male orangutans.
They show pictures of baby orangutans.
And I've had guests come over that have actually just been deeply scared because they just look at a dominant male orangutan.
It's like, that thing would tear my arms off.
It would?
Yeah, absolutely they could.
They're fearfully strong.
Unbelievably strong.
Um, apart from orangutans, what other, um... What cuter creatures do you have in your... Sun bears!
Some of them are amazing.
They're also pretty dangerous.
They're quite small.
They can get as small as 25 kilos to about 60 kilos over here.
Although 60 kilos is getting pretty big.
But even a 25 kilo bear, and about 100 kilos, I couldn't even slow a bear down.
It would just absolutely destroy me.
We do have Tarsiers and Slow Lorises, if you know what they are.
They're very cute and relatively harmless.
I don't.
Are these all peculiar to... I bet you've got lots of species that are only found on Borneo or in Sabah?
There's some that are only endemic to the island, but most of the species exist throughout Southeast Asia, or certain regions of Southeast Asia.
Right.
Just a random thought, what do you think of Steve Irwin?
I never got the chance to meet him, but I met his wife and his children, and I've given a couple of talks at, I think it's called Australia Zoo, in the koala place that they have next door.
From working in the field, I've heard a lot of positive things about Steve when he was alive.
I've had people, I can't confirm this, that said a lot of the TV personality was really, because that used to irritate a lot of British people, was to get the Australian youth engaged in what he was doing.
So I've heard genuinely positive things about the guy, although I've never met him and never directly worked with him.
By the time I got to meet his family, he'd already passed.
And what are the chances of being stung to death by a stingray sting?
I mean, how unlikely is that?
I don't know, actually.
I remember an eagle ray once.
I did an undercover job on some fishing boats in Perth, collecting videos and photos of people that were exceeding their fishing quota.
And I was handling an eagle ray once, and when it's tail whipped, it missed me, but it's like, jeez, if that hit me, I would have lost an eye or something for sure.
Animals are tough, way tougher than human beings are.
So, does it have the power to penetrate?
Yeah, absolutely.
Was it incredibly unlucky?
Yeah, absolutely.
So, there's another digression for us.
You've been doing undercover work, spying on, that sounds like quite action money.
A bit green PC I might say, but... A little bit, yeah.
In the past I used to investigate wildlife trade, and for a little bit when I first came here, but it's difficult because once you start becoming a bit of a public figure you can't really sneak into someone and pretend that you're someone else, you know what I mean?
So it's not really work I've done for the last 20 years to any significant degree.
So you are quite notorious now, or semi-famous in your field?
In my field, yeah.
I'm not famous to the lay public.
Like, if you had a deep interest in great apes, then maybe people might see me on a Nat Geo documentary or something like that.
But one interesting thing is in 2020, if ever I would give a talk, someone would say, oh, can you send over a bio or a bit of info on yourself?
And I would just tap my name into Google and tons of articles would come up from Cosmopolitan, ABC News, stuff like that.
And after I went public in, I think it was maybe early April 2020, saying, this is a con, there's something going on here.
About a month later, someone invited me onto a podcast to talk about why great apes aren't dying from COVID.
And they said, can you send over a bio?
So I Googled myself.
I completely disappeared online, James.
And the only hits from me were, well, that came a bit later, but there was a sponsored ad for me I forget the exact name, but it was something like Gay Time South Africa.
Not that it would matter if I am gay, but I'm not gay, I'm heterosexual.
And there was my picture, and all the information was relatively accurate, but it was segued in between two photographs of like oiled up guys in sort of mankinis.
I'm like, why am I in gay pages like South Africa?
And why is someone paying to promote my profile on there?
I mean, it could have just... I'm a bit of a Luddite.
I don't like technology, so maybe they just cleared off the archives.
But it did seem a bit suspicious to me that the only stuff that was left up on me was really, like, you know, fairly defamatory.
And when I was saying, look, I know great apes pretty well.
I'm telling you, they're not getting even sick from COVID, let alone dying from COVID.
I suddenly wouldn't appear credible to anyone that would Google me.
It's like, who's that nutjob?
Oh, he's gay.
That is, that is just one tiny example.
I mean, I'm sure things like this happen everywhere with everything.
But that is a tiny, that is very indicative of how they can close you down for wrong think.
Just like that.
So you were really quite a celebrity.
I mean, if you were being Published and featured in the magazines that you named.
I mean, they're quite big.
That's good publicity.
And suddenly they unpersoned you just for saying that great apes are not getting Covid.
Yep.
And interestingly, four years down the line, everyone agrees with me.
It's like, oh, isn't it lucky it doesn't affect the great apes?
It's like, hey, I got totally cancelled for pointing that out.
I was in the naughty bin on... I never really had social media.
In fact, my ex-partner used to... I had a Facebook account that would post, but it wasn't me, it was my girlfriend at the time.
She would post as me saying, oh, we've released this animal, we've released that animal.
So I think...
Initially, I didn't want to tie my charity to what I had to say because I knew it would scare a lot of the normies, I knew it would alienate a lot of past volunteers and people that supported us, and I didn't want to bring my charity to disrepute because my mask dropped in 2020.
I've been thinking about a lot of crazy stuff my whole life and just learned that you don't drop it into polite conversation because it scares people.
But in 2020, it's like, okay, no, no more filter.
I'm just going to say what I think.
Um one of those is a bit of a it's a bit of a tangent but but I was convinced since the age of six that we've never landed on the moon and you'd have to be a muppet to imagine what we have given the evidence um at the school I remember just looking at it going this is nonsense um and I I went a bit further I don't want to um I don't know what... Actually, sorry, I don't have a fielder.
I... I was toying with the idea that space was fake when I was a child, and I was, like, looking at it again.
It don't look real.
I'm not sure that... It's fucking funny you say that, Leo.
I... Every... When I was at boarding school, every night, I used to stare at the moon at... When I had my... When I wasn't in the dormitory, when I had my... I used to look at it, and I said, like... Man, it's been all that.
I don't know.
Anyway, sorry.
So I think there was a sort of an inkling, a dawning, even back then.
So from the age of six, you were basically down the rabbit hole.
And then what were the next sort of trigger points that made you even more tinfoil hat lunatic?
It's cool.
I mean, so now I'm speaking with an adult's language.
I can't say that I kind of formalized my thinking in the way that I have now, but I don't even know if I knew the word indoctrination back then.
But it's like, this isn't education, this is indoctrination.
And I was watching the effect it was having.
I saw it almost as like a menticidal, stultifying effect on the development of the children around me.
I could almost see them, I don't want to say getting dumber, but getting more conditioned.
You know, like Pavlovian conditioning.
Oh, well done, Tommy.
Good boy.
You know?
Without being too egotistical, maybe I'm wrong, but I think I'm quite intelligent, and I could pass all of their tests.
No, you strike me, actually.
I was going to say that.
You do seem very bright.
I bet you've got a very high IQ, actually, for what it's worth.
166 when it was tested, which is high, but I don't think IQ is particularly relevant.
That's evil.
No, there's one in front of it.
It's alright, you know.
So I could pass their test, and normally would be, you know, upper percentile of any class that I was in.
And it wasn't so much that I was challenging at a younger age, I genuinely wanted to know.
But I realized quite early on that the teachers weren't necessarily lying to me.
They just didn't have a good grasp of the subject.
So then the more I would go off and read, it's like, well, some of this stuff just doesn't make any sense.
And then I could see the frustration.
It's like you're being disruptive.
And sometimes, again, I was younger.
I'll confess, I would have been being a bit clownish about it.
You could almost ferment a rebellion in the class, going, hey, look, the teacher doesn't know what they're talking about.
Oh, and now the teacher's getting angry because they don't know what they're talking about.
And then, well, long story short, I was actually institutionalized at 11 for being so disruptive.
I'd been kicked out of a number of schools and went to a special school, which was quite a shock.
I come from a very stable family, very loving, not violent, and then going into a place with people that commit some pretty heinous crimes was a real wake-up call.
Which, with hindsight, I'm actually very glad it happened.
It toughened me up.
I think I would have been quite soft otherwise.
And the thing is... How long were you there for?
Four or five years.
What was your survival strategy?
Well, I was one of the younger ones.
So I went in when I was 11 and we were mixed with kids that were like 17, 18, some of them from quite rough backgrounds and quite able to fight, which I was not at all.
So three months hugging my knees, crying and getting beaten up and then I'm not proud of it, but finding a level of aggression in myself that I didn't know existed to make sure that even if I got splatted, I would fight back and then actually become less of a target.
So I think a lot of kids in there had it a heck of a lot harder than me because my family have always been very supportive.
I think I dodged some of what happened to some of the kids there from the staff.
Because I think the staff knew which kids actually had parents that cared about them and looked after them.
But the funny thing is, someone reached out to me, I won't mention their name, and they were from this facility that I went to, and he was quite suicidal.
And it was a couple of months, no, maybe some months into the initial lockdown.
And he'd gone down some rabbit holes that I don't think were necessary.
He'd got really into Q and nonsense and was saying, like, oh, this is happening, this is happening.
I was like, dude, like, you know, slow down.
But he was at his wit's end and was saying, you know, I've been thinking of killing myself.
I thought of you.
I just remembered you and I wanted to talk to you and he managed to find us on Facebook and he was, I mean, he was confused.
He was very red-pilled and I don't think the red-pilled, without meaning any offense to any of your audience, you know, blue-pilled, red-pilled, you're still taking pharmakia.
As long as you take your meds, they don't care and a lot of people have woken up to absolute nonsense and it's just like, this is just a second tier of control.
You've escaped the mainstream and now you're living in this hellish reality Where you think, you know, Bill Gates has chipped you with a nanobot or something like that.
And he'd gone full on red pill.
I was like, reign it back.
But then I had a number of conversations with him as well.
I don't remember half the kids names.
Like once I was out there, it's like I ain't looking back.
And he's like, try and find some more of them.
How many of us doubted the conditioning at school?
Is that why we got in trouble?
Is that why we ended up in these places, which were fairly violent?
You didn't get a good education.
Your career prospects on leaving were adult prison.
The army, they used to do recruitment drives.
And the only time we were really made to feel good in this place was when the army took us out.
And I remember they would always blow smoke up my arse and be like, Leo, you'll make a great officer.
You're very intelligent.
You're a natural leader.
And I did like it.
You know, you get to fire guns and you're like, this is awesome, you know?
But I'm not very good at taking instructions.
So I was like, definitely I'm joining the army.
I want to go to university.
And I think, James, a lot of people, I think the system is evil at the end of the day.
There's a filtration mechanism.
It's like, oh, this one, the brainwashing isn't working.
Let's see if we can break them.
And I think I've met a lot of people that have been rejected by the system because they wouldn't NPC up, and then were put into pretty nasty places.
And I think I've been very lucky because I was born with wits.
I dodged a lot of the childhood vaccines by accident, and maybe the mercury in my teeth never took full effect, but my brain is still fairly awake.
It still works quite well.
I think there's a selection system there for people that push back when they're young to be kneecapped, you know, moving forward in life.
That's really interesting.
But who had the power, the authority, to send you to a special school?
Psychiatrists.
Psychiatrists, James.
So, I mean, I don't know Fielder, but I remember that the psychiatrists, child psychiatrists, were finding That they believed I'd been abused by my father, which never happened.
Ever.
I mean, he would smack us, for sure.
Yeah?
And, you know, I could be a cheeky sod, so...
He'd even, like, hit us with his belt occasionally, but always very disciplined, you know?
It's like, it was that awful, like, go to the end of the hall and get the belt, and you're like, it was more traumatic walking down the hall, like, to pick up the belt, and it'd only tap us on the arse.
And this is before, like, you know, corporal punishment was even, I don't know if it's illegal now or foreboding or whatever.
It was, you know, parental discipline.
Yeah, well, I think we're of an age.
We had the cane at my prep school.
I remember in primary school getting... Well, here's another one.
I'm sorry if I'm all over the show, but I remember multiple times getting taken up on stage in assembly, having my shorts taken down and being spanked in front of the whole audience of children.
And I remember at the time, I'm articulating in adults' words, but it wasn't the pain.
It was, this is a humiliation ritual.
Yeah.
Conform.
And it's like, no, the more you hit me, the angrier I'm going to get, you know?
So, you didn't join the army?
No.
You went to university?
I went to university, studied zoology and psychology, always wanted to work with animals, but didn't know how to.
And then I got a normie job when I finished university, working for a brown goods manufacturer, like cookers, fridges, freezers, that kind of stuff.
Did that for about a year and a half, and was very, very successful.
Like, you know, I was earning a lot of money very quickly.
So this is like, I don't know, almost 30 years ago, I was earning about £70,000 a month.
And I was really pleased.
As a salesman.
But I realized that, I can speak quite well, but to become a salesman, you start moving down a certain direction.
It's like, I don't think I'm happy with being, you know, a bullshit artist.
Not that I was outright lying, but they're like, oh no, these cookers, they'll last for 20 years, and you know they're gonna break in five.
And I didn't like it.
So then I quit that, and I joined a Buddhist monastery in Korea for, I planned to stay there for a year, but I left before that.
Because I wanted to study martial arts and just think a bit without distraction.
I'd already given up on TV at that point.
Now I would say it's full of, you know, programming, literally programming, predictive programming, subliminal programming.
It always made me feel a bit uncomfortable.
And I wanted time away from the normies to reflect on that.
And I also thought maybe I'd, you know, become some Kung Fu monk.
But by the time I got there, I just realized I can't do the martial art that these guys are doing.
But I spent a lot of time and I really was like, well, what's my direction?
What do I want to do next?
And I felt politics because I wanted to make a change in the world.
But I felt that I was too young, too naive, and it would almost definitely corrupt me.
And then it's like, well, why not the environment?
You are interested in animals.
Let's go forth and try and do conservation work until you can work out what the meaning of life is and then pick your career.
And then went into that after, well, I did a bit of traveling.
I traveled for about a year and a half, had the odd job here and there.
Started getting involved in wildlife trade like monitoring of it as I was traveling around and then that work took me to Borneo.
I was only meant to come for six days to offer advice on a project.
Started looking after or started getting involved.
Six days become six weeks became six months and I'm still stuck here 20-21 years later.
So, I'm feeling quite envious here, not having been to Borneo, but tell me, what's the appeal of Borneo?
Oh, the people are lovely.
They really are.
I mean, particularly where I am right now, Sarawak, for me, they're the friendliest people I've ever met on the planet.
There is a darker undercurrent, you know, that there's a lot of corruption in the developing world.
There's probably even more corruption in the first world, if we're honest.
It's a bit more in your face, particularly in places like the Philippines or Indonesia.
It's like, it's a bit strong.
But the people are the friendliest people in the world.
The climate's amazing.
And for me, I never, I'm not a qualified vet.
I don't want to pretend that I am a vet, but I had no veterinary team for the first maybe 10 years I was working.
So kind of taught myself how to stitch animals back up and take bullets out of them and that kind of stuff.
And then later on as I started working with more vets I enhanced my knowledge a lot.
I realized belatedly that some of that knowledge that I learned from the qualified vets was nonsense, and actually my original way of dealing with it was probably superior.
I might be wrong in that, but like that drug-leading approach, I know I'm not wrong.
You don't need to pump animals full of drugs.
You need to take stress away, give them good nutrition, and that's 99% of all of your problems cured, you know, as long as the environment's not toxic to them.
But I found it fascinating.
I found surgery really fascinating as well.
I'm quite a practical person.
I like to work with my hands.
And if you've got an animal that's dying, if you can, you know, stitch it up and give it its arm back or, you know, stop it dying.
And although the orangutan are amazing, I would get all these animals come through.
Sometimes, you know, I'd have a turtle come through and someone say, what species is this?
I'm like, no idea.
I've never seen this thing before.
You know, like, give me a day on Google.
I'll see if I can track it down.
So that was that was intellectually stimulating.
It's rewarding working with animals.
So, yeah, I mean, there's lots of positives to Borneo.
Lots, lots of mosquitoes, a bit of a downside.
But, yeah, it's an interesting place.
The morses would annoy me.
How do you deal with that?
I'm kind of immune to them.
I tend to drink quite a lot as well, so if I'm sitting outside at night, I'll have a few beers and I don't notice them.
You presumably sleep under a mosquito net and stuff?
Well, for the last four years, I haven't been living in the jungle.
I've been living in town, and it's been quite painful for me to not work full-time for my charity.
But I saw... To be honest, James, when I saw what they were doing to children, and when I saw that they were letting the elderly die alone, I think I would have been selfish to only concentrate on my little one.
It became so obvious that, I'm not saying that I'm a courageous man or anything like that, but people that have even just a modicum of courage needed to step up and speak out, even if it burnt their credibility, even if it damaged them professionally.
It's like, look at what they're doing to the elderly.
This is just, you know, it's evil.
It's absolutely evil.
So the last four years, 99% of my work has been on trying to understand what on earth is going on.
And trying to network with other thinkers, to try and raise awareness in the public, to try and hold some of these psychopathic arseholes to account for their voluminous crimes against humanity.
And not just of the last four years, all of the questions that have been asked in my whole life, it's like, this has to be overturned, or died right.
Yeah, well, where should we start on this?
Tell me about the Malaysian experience during... because we don't get much perspective on what happened in Southeast Asia.
We all think it was all in the West, but it wasn't, was it?
I'm gonna be a little bit evasive on the country that I'm currently residing in, and perhaps talk more generally around Southeast Asia.
Okay, yeah, fine.
There were military lockdowns.
You know, there was army on the streets.
I've had people point guns at me in my life, but never as much in that first six months, because I wouldn't wear the slave mask.
I was just saying, this is all fucking nonsense.
No, I'm not gonna stay in my home like a naughty little boy.
You don't want me in your shops?
Okay, I don't go in your shops.
I grow food for myself.
But I would be very vocal, turning up in the hospitals, turning up at police departments, saying it's all nonsense, like, you know, you need to stop this.
So that was really intense for the first six months.
Did you get arrested or anything like that?
Yeah, multiple times, yeah.
And tons of fines as well, tons of fines, but I never paid any.
It's just like, I don't care, you know.
I mean, I'll be completely honest, rather than pretending I was just trying to be heroic, the world was in such a mess.
I was very mindful that my family, brother, sister, mother, father, are all in England.
I didn't know how quickly things were going to escalate.
It's like, if you kick me out, I can say I've done everything I possibly could to look after those animals.
Then the evil government deported me, so then I'm free to Fight fight where I was born in England where I think maybe I could have made more of a difference.
Because there was a lot more resistance in England.
But they didn't.
And then also after a while when I realised they wouldn't shoot you if you didn't put your mask on.
And in fact you could swear at them and say, you know, stick it up your arse, you're mad.
And they didn't shoot you for that.
It's like, it's bluff.
Or that the big man's like watching out for me.
Wow.
So, did you have any allies at all?
Yes, I won't mention his name because not many people, even now, are even close to being ready to speak out, but there was one expat.
Actually, funny enough, he got it before me.
I started looking into Convid, I think it was around October, November of 2019, because all of the veterinary channels I was part of were flooding information saying there's a deadly disease coming.
And originally I was like, well, how do you know?
There was news about Covid, although most people were ignoring it.
So I started looking at the stories that were coming from China.
And it's like, well, this is a nothing burger, you know?
They're saying this deadly disease, but more people get killed in China by lightning strike than have been killed by Covid.
Why on earth are they thinking or talking about locking down?
Lightning's a bigger problem for them and no one locks down for that.
So I quite quickly surmise it's nonsense.
You know, it's just like the bird flu, the swine flu from before, they're making shit up like they always do.
And then when they locked down, I thought, well, maybe I've got it wrong.
You know, like, so I then said, okay, look, we'll take it seriously.
The whole mask stuff and sanitizing is like, well, this is nonsense.
I won't do anything, but, um, maybe I've got it wrong.
So I went back and hit the books and I had one friend, I knew something was wrong, but he called, he called nonsense on it from day one because they announced the lockdown and it came from nowhere here.
And the very next day, every lamppost had all these signs, staying at home, stay at home, you know, the rule of three, hands face space, that kind of stuff.
Having lived in Borneo for a long time, it takes months for anything to come out.
And the fact that it was all ready to roll, he said, this is clearly a con.
And to give it some more depth to that, I'd become fairly convinced that rabies wasn't the disease that we are told it is, to the point that I would have said it's nonsense.
And that over here and all around the world, but particularly in the developing world, the WHO for three, four years had been running rabies pandemics.
With this, you know, really clear instruction.
Everything has to get injected.
Salvation is injection.
So I'm looking at that going, well, that's good anchoring.
That's good availability heuristic that when the human disease pops up, you will know what to do, you know?
And because they'd already done it to their dogs, it normalized it.
And then he and I talked about that.
It's like there is like world shaping going on here.
And it helped that he also knew that 9-11 was nonsense.
The more obvious ones like Boston Marathon bombing, Nonsense ISS nonsense moon landings.
So we were kind of on the same wavelength.
So I had that one friend, everyone else thought I was a lunatic, even my staff.
And I don't I wasn't speaking as you know, about such a wide transfer of things as I am now.
I think this is overblown.
Let's call it what I thought it was the common cold and the flu back then.
I must say my thinking on contagious diseases has developed enormously over the last in the first year of lockdown.
I started reading books that I'd never read before, including our mutual friend Roman's book.
And once I'd read that, the penny dropped.
It's like, it's all a con.
And they know.
By the way, I have great respect for Mahathir Mohammed for speaking out about The New World Order.
I remember I used to think, in my normie days, I used to think that people like Muhammad, how dare you?
You are part of this kind of evil global Muslim horde who are fighting the truth and justice of Western democracy.
And I reread his speech the other day.
And I thought, this guy is completely honest.
I've changed my position on Gaddafi, for example, on all these people who are sold to us as uppity and dangerous third world dictators who don't know their place but are dangerous and must be destroyed.
I now realise these are honest guys speaking out against global corruption instigated by the West.
I'll have to be a little bit clipped on my answer.
I would say you've seen the video of that speech that he gave at the conference where it was it was pretty full on.
He gave that speech when he was out of power and kind of obsolete from power and then he got back into power and suddenly never mentioned it again.
I tried to reach out to his team as the first logical choice to say, look, you know that thing you were saying was going to happen?
It appears to be happening.
And just got polite, like, do not ever try to contact this person.
Don't mention this.
Oh, OK.
But push the whole thing.
That is how it works, isn't it?
If you're at that level in politics, you're either part of the game or you end up dead.
Yeah, I see.
So anyway, so you had, you see, two and a half years of lockdown in Southeast Asia?
Well, Malaysia was a bit longer than some of the regional partners.
Singapore and Malaysia and Philippines, so far as I'm aware, went the longest and the hardest sealing the borders.
Oh, I can't... The Philippines with that rather aggressive who I imagine would have shot you dead.
Yes, I'm sure he would have done that.
And Singapore, I get a very poor vibe from Singapore.
They seem to really love their authoritarianism.
So I bet that was hard to live under.
Yeah, well, I know a lot of people in the region.
There were people in Singapore.
I mean, they were buying into there being a pandemic, but also saying, well, this is a bit full on.
So how did you cope with day-to-day living?
I mean, I can't imagine you were able to grow all your food.
Yeah, so permaculture and farming's a big hobby of mine.
I used to grow food for the wildlife centre because our biggest cost is always feeding the animals.
So I had about seven hectares of permaculture next to the centre.
So I really genuinely love it, like vermicomposting, growing stuff.
I seldom ever found the time, but then it was like, okay, I'm not allowed in supermarkets, I don't care.
My only problem was I have a lot of dogs.
So, I'd never kept chickens before, so then I was like, well, I'll keep a load of chickens so I can feed my dogs meat.
I can go off-grid if I need to.
I can provide for me and myself.
And I also don't eat very much.
I'm not like one of those freakish breatharians, but I only eat like two or three times a week and only a small meal.
As long as I've got beer, and I used to own two bars, I had tons of beer.
It was like, I'm fine.
So... What?
Yeah, you don't look emaciated.
No, no.
In fact, as I get older, I'm starting to develop man boobs in the beer gully because I drink so much.
So, no, no.
I'm unhealthy probably because of my lifestyle, but I'm still stronger than most men my age.
You're telling me, I mean, you are one of the very few people who can make this claim, I think.
You managed to feed yourself through your own produce through the lockdown.
What were you eating?
Bananas?
Chickens, mostly.
I mean, it took me a while to get the chickens up to size in the breed.
Although, interestingly, sorry, it's a bit of a tangent, but a lot of Southeast Asia outlawed keeping chickens.
Because it can spread COVID.
They didn't.
They didn't.
Or put limits on it.
Like, Malaysia put a limit on it.
You can't keep more than five.
But for rural villages, you have these kampong chickens that are just running around everywhere.
They keep hordes of chickens.
And it was expressly to stop the spread of COVID.
And it was like, how the hell?
What?
You know, what is this?
But that's still not been rescinded.
So you're still only allowed to keep five chickens?
I remember I got banned from Facebook for putting up two words and the dictionary definition with no further comment.
Eatricide and Demicide.
And the only framing I gave of that is like, I thought everyone knew these words.
And then I was banned from Facebook for two years for giving the dictionary definition two words.
So I thought it might be worse than it was.
And if it was going to be a Demicide, well, it's typically food.
Wow.
One of the most upsetting things, well I mean actually no it's not the most, you think about, maybe we'll come on to that, all the children and old people who just lives were ruined, but it was quite upsetting when you saw zoos giving the death jab to their gorilla or whatever and then later on mysteriously the gorilla sadly died of Covid probably.
So I'm quite well connected to Zoom networks, and you know, there are some people that would never want to be named for talking to me, but will still be quite honest to me when I pick up the phone and say, OK, look, you never got it from me.
Yes, there has been mortality, but I really don't trust anything that comes out in the mainstream papers.
And over the last four years, Some people that we would nominally say are on our side get really angry with me because I say that's not real.
That's fake.
But it supports our side.
It's like my side's truth.
I'm not going along with a lie.
I'm so glad you said that, Leo.
It really annoys me when, for example, on Twitter when I might retweet something because on first glance it looks like it's supportive to Of course, but I assume that it's true.
And then I discover it's not true, and I'm thinking, hang on a second.
You person who put out this thing, you're obviously working for the other side, because our only objective must be finding the truth.
We can't sort of throw in lies just because they enhance our... I mean, that's what the other side do.
I'm of the opinion, it's a not popular opinion, but I think the vast majority of all of the conspiracies, many of these rabbit holes you all have dug, I think, you're familiar with the word polysemy or polysemic?
The media puts out one story, but it's meant to be interpreted two ways.
So, someone who I think's a clown is Russell Brand.
And he's there waving his 33 around going, all right lads, I'm on your side.
I mean, if I was running an evil cabal, I would say tone it down a little bit, lads.
That's a bit obvious.
Can we not have, like, the one-eye symbolism so much?
It's there to be seen.
And I'm not saying that there aren't things going on here, but the media is deliberately sowing out, like, in the recent Trump sort of debacle.
They want people going down rabbit holes, like the security did it, they did it, it's a staged event, it's TV, it's kayfabe all the way down, you know?
And they want to encourage people going into rabbit holes and driving themselves mad.
I'm glad you... we won't go into too much detail on that one because I'm actually doing a podcast with Olly Damogard in a couple of days and I'm sure he's going to give me chapter and verse but it did strike me.
I mean I agree with you that the Trump assassination was a staged event but what's been fascinating looking at the kind of the various Trump supporters on the one hand and the conspiracy theorists on the other and all positions in between And it seems clear to me that different levels of clue were offered to, were thrown out for different levels of intelligence and different levels of rabbit piledness and stuff.
So for the really basic people, you've got, here is a picture of a bullet flying through the air.
I mean, you've got to be really basic to be convinced by that, but lots of people were, you know, did you not see the picture of the bullet?
I mean, how do you explain that then?
Well, You try and explain to them, look, it was faked.
Cameras don't take photographs of bullets.
Not even really good modern technology ones.
But then you've got the sort of the more deep stuff like the, did you see the short positions taken by affiliates of BlackRock in, you know, they shorted Trump shares.
How do you know that they did actually short it?
And even if they did, it was probably a spoof.
So you've got different levels.
And then you've got oral clues.
You've got somebody caught the audio of the same phrase, gasped phrase, being used at this event.
As we used in 9-11, in some of the footage there.
So that's for the deep, deep conspiracy theorists.
And then you've got all the kind of the occult symbolism of Trump's comments with the shoes.
And then you've got the significance of the streaks of fake blood, the exact shape.
There's something for everyone, isn't there?
Deliberately, but I think that is the control mechanism.
Red or blue pill, they don't care which one you consume.
It's the... I don't know if you're familiar with the term auto-hoaxing or auto-hoaxes.
I'm not sure they're completely correct, but I'm definitely one of them.
It's the most logical position that I've seen out there.
That's the position you're not allowed to have.
You're allowed to, anywhere within that overton, fight.
They want you to fight.
They want, you know, to divide society.
Stepping outside of it and saying, well, no, I'm just... Either I don't have an opinion until I get more information, I'm not going to trust anything that's on the TV, that's for sure.
I'm not going to trust anything with a name that's known in every household around the world.
Like a friend of mine says, you know, if it's a household name, then they're in the game.
I very much agree with that.
So I reserve judgment.
Yeah.
So I reserve judgment until I know to the best of my ability to know.
Obviously, the first time you look at it, you're like, this looks a bit suspect.
Why is that guy wearing a brick suit?
But yeah, to not leap to judgment, because once you do, once you form a position, your ego will defend it.
That we're feeling beings before we're thinking beings.
So stopping that emotional pull, whether it supports your argument or is against your argument, is like, wait, let's sift through it.
And what I've learned with a lot of the PSYOPs that happen, particularly things like, you know, mass shootings or school shootings in the United States, That I call it truth or trick bait.
They'll put stuff out that's obviously wrong the first day.
A bunch of people will then go, hey, it's fake!
And then two days later, they'll issue something else that goes, ah, look at your stupid conspiracy theory, mate.
He thought the shoes had a rainbow stripe on, but actually it's the resolution of the camera.
And on that, they're probably telling the truth.
They're putting this chicken feed, another one of my friend calls it, in front.
Everyone goes pecking rapidly, and he's like, no, no, slow down, you know?
Could be fake, could be real.
So yeah, I tend to auto-hoax most things.
Auto-hoax?
Yeah, yeah.
It's the opposite of auto-believing.
Yeah.
But I think that is the sensible view.
I don't think you're saying anything that certainly, speaking for myself, I'm not thinking, oh, Leo's a bit, you know, he's not a true, he's not truly awake, or he's so awake that he's almost asleep again, he's come full circle.
I mean, I think you and I would accept it's a given that it was a hoax, but we're kind of agnostic about the trickery used and stuff, and we're not going to get too involved.
Because what I've noticed, sorry.
No, no, you finish your point.
What I've noticed is that people in some of the discussions, it's too polite a word for it, a lot of people have become very emotionally involved in this.
And when they're defending their positions, they engage in what you might call shroud waving.
So they say, Are you saying that this man didn't die, this hero, and they mention his name, and you're thinking, you didn't know the guy, maybe he was killed, maybe he wasn't, but even if he did die, he wasn't your dad, and you seem not to understand that...
They're happy with collateral damage.
It kind of enhances the credibility that it was real.
And it plays to people like you, precisely so that you can get on your emotional high horse and say, how dare you, James Dillingpole, question an event where this guy who's near my know died?
I had, I won't mention their name, but I had someone that when I went public on Convid, they were like, oh, how dare you?
You know, five of my friends, let's say, have died of COVID.
And I was like, all right, you know, and I was sympathetic, but it's like, okay, I'm, you know, I still have my opinion.
But then I called nonsense on the Ukraine war.
And there's like, how dare you?
One of my friends just got killed in Ukraine.
I was like, oh.
That's weird.
You live in Sweden, right?
Okay, maybe you've got a friend.
And then I called Nonsense on one of the school shootings in America.
And he's like, how dare you?
One of my friend's children just died.
And I'm like... Okay, I get that.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
How do you explain that phenomenon?
Is it that our friends are very well connected?
They know lots of victims around the world?
No, no, definitely not.
I mean, this was a former member of staff of mine and a friend.
I mean, we don't talk anymore, but I think the story... Are you familiar with hyper-realism, like kind of Baudrillard's work or that kind of stuff?
The story... Like happened in the Soviet Union in the last... Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
The story becomes real for them and they end up just...
You know, splurging it out, but then the ego protects itself.
I mean, by chance, many of my childhood friends are doctors.
They're not evil.
They're not part of some cabal.
I can still talk to them, but they will delete everything that doesn't matter.
And they know me.
They know I'm not lying to them.
I'm like, please just read this book.
Please just look at this.
But they will just delete all of that information.
So, their story that their ego is telling them remains real and defensible because they're coming from an emotional place.
And I don't know how much you know about heuristics, but the brain works in a way that most people don't seem to understand.
Heuristic is a kind of rule of thumb, isn't it?
A sort of mental shortcut.
Exactly that.
Yeah, and it generally works.
It generally works.
That's why our brain relies on them so well.
But if you have a good understanding of behavioral science, as the nudge units do, you can weaponize that against people.
Availability heuristic, like the... I'll give a slightly different explanation.
I've twice in my life that I'm aware of non-intentionally retold a movie scene as part of my life.
And I told it first person, and I believed I had seen it.
Both times I was dehydrated.
I was on a stage, and then the Q&A had gone on for a lot longer than expected, and I don't normally use a mic, so I shout a lot, and that just dehydrates you.
And on one of them, I retold a scene from Planet of the Apes, and everyone loved it, but it worked really well.
I got off the stage, and one of my staff said to me, like, oh, I had no idea they based that scene on real life.
Where was it?
And I'm like, what scene?
And they're like, you know, that scene from Planet of the Apes, and luckily I was able to get back up on the stage and say, I'm awfully sorry people, it wasn't my intention, but what I just told you was completely wrong.
It appears I got a crosswire.
So I think that can happen to people, and they're absolutely genuine as well.
And I think they're far more likely to do that when they're drunk, dehydrated, or emotional.
They will retell something, and their ego will convince them that it's real.
Yes, I think that's true.
I was convinced when my ex split from me, I had a very definite picture of it was all her fault.
It had nothing to do with me leaving my dirty socks everywhere, being a workaholic and snoring like an ape.
It was all her fault.
And then after, you know, I let go of the emotion of it and realized, well, I only want the best for her.
And if she's happy, good, you know?
Then I realized, like, oh no, my brain is playing tricks on me.
That's really interesting.
I used to interview, I used to hang out with World War II veterans when there were still a decent amount of them alive, and I used to go on trips with them to the scene of their exploits.
And what I realised was that They started to remember as their own experiences, things that happened to other people and that have been related to them over the years.
So it was no longer possible that... I mean, these guys were in their eighties, I suppose.
It was no longer to trust their first person accounts because they could have just happened to somebody else and they just absorbed it.
But they were convinced that it's happened to them.
And I was thinking, I have trouble remembering stuff that happened to me 10 years ago.
So how would you expect somebody in his 80s to remember what happened in his early 20s?
There's one recurring doubt I've got.
I cannot remember whether or not I've ever been in a hot air balloon in the African savannah Or whether I'm just imagining that I had the experience.
Because I could describe the trip quite vividly, but I don't know if I did it or not.
Well, I mean, one thing, without going too woo-woo on this one, I went on a date over the weekend with a psychiatrist, and we were talking a lot about Jung and Freud and stuff like this, and Jung's, in some ways, controversial opinion, but also kind of intuitive opinion, that there might be some form of collective consciousness or an egregore.
I don't have a qualified opinion on it yet.
I'm able to look at both and consider both.
But what if there is some kind of group consciousness and we are drawing other people's memories in and then relaying them as, you know, first party?
Because on an extremis of that, I've been investigating lots of different lines of inquiry.
And most people that are relatively thinking about things experience this phenomenon that does not appear to be coincidence, that you think of a certain significant person that you're not in contact with a lot, and the same day your telephone will ring.
Sometimes down to within a second, you think of someone, and then your phone rings, and you're like, oh, it's so-and-so.
I'm open to, without knowing what it is, there being some level of Intuition, I don't want to say telepathy because I'm not sure that it is that, but some kind of connectivity between us that defies, you know, modern scientific interpretations.
And when she really started digging into science, she realized a lot of it's nonsense anyway.
So it's like, well, a lot of what the mainstream is telling us is we know this, We know this about that.
We know this about that.
There was a big bang and the universe is expanding at a billion miles a minute or something like that.
I don't believe that.
No, of course not.
I mean, you'd be fooled, Stu.
But to be a normie, you have to kind of pay lip service to it.
Evolution, dinosaurs, you've all got to, you know, oh, well, I'm not even going to question it.
Whereas I would be in the camp of auto-hoax.
And I have looked for the I've looked into the evidence as a zoologist, as someone that knows animals quite well, and I never questioned dinosaurs until 2020, and it was a conspiracy theory, so I went, I ain't mad if you believe in dinosaurs.
And I've debated people that think birds aren't real, or that great apes aren't real, and I'm happy to talk to them about it, and laugh, you know, with them along, and I hope if they meet me in good faith, I will listen to anything they say.
If I can't answer it, I'll take some photos of the animals I work with, and like, look, it's me, I'm doing surgery now, and most of them You can get them to consider that you might not be lying to them.
Equally, when the dinosaur thing was put to me, it was one of the ones I fell for.
I used to love dinosaurs.
I was like, I'll make short work of this, it'll only take me a day.
But before the end of the day, James, I was like, I had no idea that there was such tomfoolery involved in this story.
And way within a week, it's like, okay, default, I'm not believing in dinosaurs until you actually present evidence that dinosaurs walked this earth.
Tell me about The dinosaurs.
Because you were a true believer.
So what changed your mind?
When I learned about the Bone Wars, that you had these essentially two circus performers and that they discovered nearly everything, it was just like, that looks highly irregular.
I thought it came from a lot more sources.
Then when I found that the bones that are displayed, or the complete skeletons that are displayed, we worked that out because we had one vertebrae from the diplodocus and a big toe, And we know it looked like this, and we knew it had, like, it lay 17 eggs on average at time, and its internal body temperature was this.
I'm like, pull the other one.
You've got a toe bone, you're having a laugh.
And then the more you look, it's just, it's incredulous.
I'd be more likely to believe in dragons than I would be in dinosaurs, you know?
I'm not saying I do believe in dragons, but... Oh, I do.
Oh really?
You know what?
I'll tell you why.
So the Chinese Zodiac, for example, all the other animals existed.
Why would they invent this creature?
So many cultures around the world have dragons in them.
It seems It's implausible that they all sort of independently developed this creature that didn't exist.
Because they're all quite similar, the dragons.
There's a good argument that a lot of big snakes and crocodiles, like real animals that exist today, were much larger before we started taking them out.
I think you could easily interpret, let's say the biggest croc might tap out now at about six and a half meters.
People say they used to get to ten to twelve meters.
It's like, what if they got even bigger than that?
Could you confuse a crocodile for a dragon?
Yeah, I think you could.
Well, I don't know, it would need some wings.
Yeah, well, but then equally, you know, stories can get embellished.
I mean, if dragons were real, particularly if they make a re-entrance, I'm a big fan of predictive programming, and I can't help but notice that Game of Thrones series was quite big, big enough that even I, who don't own a TV, went out to watch it.
So that I could understand what everyone was talking about.
It would tick some boxes, but the benefit for me would be, I'm fairly quixotic.
I'll charge towards windmills or giants, whichever come first.
But if a dragon pops up, it's like, brilliant, let's try and kill a dragon.
That'd be bloody awesome.
And if I die, then I die in glorious battle.
That's not a bad way to go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Killed by a dragon.
Or killing a dragon.
Oh, I see, killing a dragon.
Yeah, well that would make you Saint George, whoever he was.
Apparently he was a rebadged sort of Babylonian mystery god or something.
He was incorporated into the Catholic Church, into the hierarchy of saints.
I have a pet theory that the archetypes that these stories evolve keep repeating.
They're not really changing it very much.
I can see clear parallels between Elon Musk, the clown that is Elon Musk, and Pope Constantine, the burning cross.
And it's like, are you just rehashing this stuff over and over again?
There's bits of Ted Bezos' story that you could look at and say, well, that's kind of a reflection of Nimrod.
Are we being farmed?
I wonder if we're being story farmed.
I think most people are mistaking stories for reality.
Play-Doh's cave kind of thing.
And I do wonder if it's just that there's a workable formula, whether or not they reset tech or anything like that, you know, every four generations or every 10 generations.
Certainly, there's big gaps in history.
So I see the power of stories.
I'm sure we're being story farmed, you only have to look at the entertainment industry to see how thoroughly we're being story farmed.
I think it's beyond their wildest dreams that they were able in the 20th century to put a magical box in the house of pretty much everyone in the world and this magical box would be turned on 24-7.
I mean, you go to people's houses, they've got the news on, they've got the tennis on, they've got the soaps on.
Yeah, what does that do to the brain with the alpha waves already receptive to whatever message is being put across?
Where are you on evolution versus creation?
Boo.
I find the probability of evolution being a story told, when you look back at some of the key characters that promoted it, I find it not supported by the evidence.
And in many ways, that's new for me.
I never considered that until 2020.
And in fact, in many ways, given my background of great apes, anthropology, I would get paid to lecture at universities on these subjects.
And I would say, oh, we're 98.8% genetically identical to a chimpanzee.
I knew the gaps in years between all of them.
And I never really questioned it, Jameson.
And I've questioned a lot of reality.
But post 2020, it just went into overdrive.
Darwin's Bulldog, Thomas Huxley, I'm sure you know who he is, Julian Huxley, his son, the president of the Eugenics Society, the founder of WWF, the founder of IUCN.
It's like, why do I trust this lot at all?
I would want to have a full and frank conversation and years of inquiry to see if evolution is correct.
I suspect strongly that it's not.
And I think that one of the things we're struggling with in the world at the moment, or people are struggling with in their own minds, is people have expertise, whether it's in virology, great ape conservation, rocket science, or stuff like that, and they're unwilling to challenge the things that are dearest to their heart.
Their ego's too attached to them, their career's tied up in it.
Whereas after 2020, I just went back through everything I believed in.
It's like, does it stand the sniff test?
And for me, it wasn't hard to start questioning it.
Once I realized it could be questioned, and it wasn't axiomatic knowledge, it's like, well, I need to look into it.
Does the evidence support it?
And you're like, oh, no, the evidence really doesn't support it whatsoever.
It's just a story that's repeated so much.
People are mistaking it for reality.
Where did you study zoology?
at Reading University. - And I would imagine, I mean, I would imagine it's, every zoology course in the country, across the world, is infused with evolutionary theory.
It's just sort of accepted.
It's a key part of it.
And you spend a lot of time studying, well, microevolution at least.
And people go, well, if microevolution happens, then ergo, macroevolution must happen over a longer period.
You don't question it, do you?
And I didn't.
And I just memorized all the facts and then would just regurgitate them out to everyone else without really independently verifying what I was repeating.
So now I'm much more in a Socratic position.
It's like, I don't know anything.
But that's a better base than pretending I know things.
Yeah, well, it's like you were quoting the genetic similarities between the great apes and humans, but you hadn't done the DNA testing yourself.
You were just sort of... If even DNA is a thing, that itself could be a... You're the only person that's ever said that to me.
I am definitely open to questioning it.
Absolutely I'm open to questioning it.
It's like, really?
Are you sure?
Yeah.
You mentioned birds aren't real.
Presumably there are people who actually believe that.
Or do you think it was just a sort of spoof thing that was put out to tie up kind of stuff to make us look stupid?
I think.
So people can inflate our position.
I've got to say, when I talk to an English audience, they're like, oh, so you believe in lizard people?
It's like, no, actually, I dug that rabbit hole and I see no evidence to support it.
As in, you know, shapeshifting reptilians, like it could be.
But for me to believe that, I need a reptile strapped to a chair that I can investigate, you know?
I'm not just going to go on hearsay or see-say on videos.
So...
Yes, I'm sorry, I lost your question there, James.
How does the birds on real theory work?
I think it makes us look like clowns.
Our positions get conflated all the time.
I'm very open to an exploration of Flat Earth.
Some of the most intelligent people I talk to seem to be fairly convinced that the world is not a spinning, rocking space, which I concur with.
I'm more of a shaper, not agnostic, I think is the story, but I'm willing to engage with things.
So, I would be willing to engage with the argument that birds aren't real, but I've done surgery on birds, and it's like, well, they're definitely not flying robots.
Might there be a flying robot that is a bird, that is, you know, pretending to be a bird?
Possibly, but you need to show me one of those things before I can give that any credence.
Most people don't do their own investigation.
They'll watch a podcast or see something online or on Twitter, And they're like, oh, you know, that there's nanobots in the vaccine.
So before, I like to independently verify everything.
So during the lockdowns, during the pantodemic, I stole files of vaccines.
I mixed it with my blood.
I looked at it under, like, microscope, and I could not replicate the vast majority of noise that was appearing in social media.
So it's like, it might be real, but I can't verify your results.
So I'm inclined to actually, like, still have an agnostic position on what you're finding.
So on birds aren't real, I've seen no evidence to suggest that birds aren't real.
I have tons of evidence from my own professional career that birds are absolutely real.
I grow chickens.
I eat them.
They're not robots.
Maybe we're all organic robots, but the bird is clearly made of similar material to me.
Its system seems to work in a similar way to me.
So for me the balance of evidence is overwhelming that birds are real and controversially in some of the circles that we might go with I see no reason to doubt pandas as a real biological being.
They might be inbred or some weird thing and there's definitely some like messing around going on with the narrative but I don't believe that pandas aren't real.
I think it's almost a bit of a silly position to take without evidence and a few YouTube videos... Now you're sounding really crazy!
Everyone knows that pandas are men in panda suits.
I'm not even joking.
Is there any significance in the fact, if it is a fact, that the hornbill, for example, in Southeast Asia and Africa, is a completely different species from the toucan in Central and South America?
I've not worked with toucans, but I've seen them.
I think they occupy the same ecological niche, so their functions are similar.
Hornbills are definitely real.
I've worked with them.
I've put radio collars on them to release them.
I've done surgeries on them.
They're definitely real animals.
Um, there does appear to be something that could be referred to as speciation.
It doesn't necessarily imply evolution, but there are different animals.
Like, you have what they call the Wallace Line.
I mean, that might all be nonsense, but you get cockatoos on one side of it and hornbills on the other side of it.
You know, they're occupying similar ecological niches, but they're different animals.
Um, So I wouldn't think the Hornbit was necessarily related in any way to the Toucan other than they are occupying the same ecological niche.
Yeah, I'm quite into my birds and the vibe I'm slightly getting is that South America has the edge over Southeast Asia in terms of bird species.
Yeah, definitely in terms of ability to see them, for sure.
You'll see a lot more wildlife in South American forests than you will in Southeast Asian forests.
So we have greater biodiversity, but less bio-density.
So there aren't as many animals per hectare, per piece of forest.
So I've been through the Amazon forest and you saw animals everywhere.
Monkeys everywhere, birds everywhere.
I've never seen that in Asian forests ever.
Oh, interesting.
So it's much, much harder.
I like them to be visible.
Have you been into deep, deep Borneo?
What's that like?
Yeah, sure.
I think I've been as deep as any one of the natives that live here.
And since I work for a lot of those, I think I've been as deep as anyone goes.
It's beautiful.
It's very, very nice.
There isn't much of the deep, deep Borneo left.
Most stuff is accessible now to humans.
You know, logging roads, agricultural roads.
So people hunt in most areas other than mountainous areas.
And they don't hunt there because it's hard to walk up the hills.
But yeah.
I don't know that it's noticeably that different to, say, South American forest or Equatorial African forest.
Other than the diversity of plants and insects here is really truly remarkable in Borneo.
The plant diversity is phenomenal.
Is it?
Yeah.
Yeah, immense.
That flower that only flowers for two hours every year, what's that one?
Rafflesia.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's actually quite underwhelming, James.
If ever you make your way over here, it's not as impressive as the story that's told.
And they call it here the corpse flower, and they say, oh, it smells like a dead body.
By virtue of my work, I've smelt a lot of dead bodies, and it's similar, but it's not like stumbling across a dead animal in the forest or anything like that.
I've got to ask you about that.
Estuarine crocodiles.
Saltwater crocodiles.
They seem to be bloody everywhere.
There's tons.
Yeah, here.
There's tons.
They kill a lot of people each year.
I've worked for crocodiles a lot.
I've caught many man-eaters.
I've taken human bodies out of crocodiles.
Well, yeah.
I mean, I would have thought of all the killers.
It's got to be the worst killers in the world.
Is it not a toss-up between the polar bear and the estuarine crocodile?
I think in terms of predation of man, though you've named two of the animals that see us as food items, and they will absolutely hunt us.
I think I'd rather take my chances against a croc than a polar bear, because bears are just absolutely phenomenal, quite fast, whereas crocodiles are ambush predators.
If you see a crocodile, you're very unlikely to die by it.
Whereas if you were marching around in Svalbard and you see a bear, you're doomed.
There's nothing you can do, you know.
Whereas if you see a croc, just don't go in the water.
Yes.
I once went on this amazing trip round Svalbard.
We got given each a skidoo and we rode for 300 miles round Svalbard.
Looking for polar bears.
And I didn't see any by the way, oddly enough.
And there was one place we stayed, a radio station, and it was at that time of year when it was light for about 23 hours out of 24.
And wandering around the huts at night, you know, you were very aware that you could get gobbled at any time by a by a polar bear some years ago a british kid i think he got killed made by the bear but there was an attack i worked with i i didn't know the kid's name um i can't even know what he was he was the nephew of a of a good friend of mine oh i'm sorry to hear that
but i i am i i take school groups in over here and they they were on an expedition party i forget the name of the group but uh one of the guys that was on the group when it happened came to borneo many years later and was It's like, yeah, that's kind of like, it's a risk of doing what you're doing.
These things are incredibly dangerous, yeah.
I want to talk a bit more about the experience of Southeast Asia during Covid.
I hate to use that word, Covid, because that's their word.
It did a lot of damage, didn't it?
It did damage to your business.
It made it much harder for you to save animals.
I had 13 businesses.
I lost 12 of them to lock debts.
And does anybody question this?
Thanks.
Sadly, James, even the people that lost their own businesses, they're still like, oh, well, it would have been worse.
It's like, you're destitute.
I know people that killed themselves because they lost their life's work.
I mean, maybe one of the reasons, maybe I could have retained a couple more of my businesses, but early on in 2020, I saw it was so bad.
And I fell for a lot of frauds and grifters.
I just wanted it to end.
Not for me, but for me particularly, it was the elderly dying alone that really triggered me.
It made me so angry.
It's like, this has to stop now.
So everything that I had in reserve for the businesses, I earmarked most of it for my charity so that I could feed the animals that were there, but I also knew that I needed to do everything I could to try and stop it.
So I was throwing away whatever I could earn, like some of the businesses I was able to, you know, move to online or I was selling candles.
I started selling those internationally until they stopped international post because it might spread COVID.
It's just like, okay, this feels like you're personally doing this to mess with me now.
And I gave lots of money to people that claimed they could solve it, this new movie's gonna stop it, you know, give me $1,000 and I'll sue someone.
And yeah, in that first year I really destroyed my business.
It's just trying to make it end.
Which in some ways, you know, I guess I don't think I was being selfish, but I knew that with my Whatever competency skills, my brain and my body still works.
I knew that I would be okay.
Obviously, my charity was being wrecked, but it's like, if we don't lift these lockdowns and the insanity of this, my charity's gone anyway.
But I felt it was worse what was happening to the elderly being left to die alone.
And then when it came to the jibby-jabbings and the rollout of that, it's like, There is no pandemic.
It's so obvious that there's no pandemic of any meaningful significance whatsoever.
So these injections can at best be nothing or at worst harmful.
There's no way they're beneficial.
So if you're going to try and put those into kids, everyone needs to try and stop this right now.
But yeah, I fell for a lot of grifters.
So I think I gave money to people that ended up not doing anything.
I mentioned that
I was travelling in Colombia recently, and as I often do when I go to other countries, I think, yeah, this would be a good place to escape the, you know, the coming clampdown on all our freedoms and stuff, because this culture wouldn't, you know, this vibrant culture wouldn't, with local farms and local communities, they'd never Buy into this nonsense.
But I think your experience in Southeast Asia and what I know about South America, for example, they were closed down just as much as any of our kind of more regimented Western cultures.
And they took it.
Yeah.
In a lot of these countries, the populace in Asia is fairly respect authority, respect elders at all costs.
But there's been waves of genocides across Southeast Asia over the years.
These are quite authoritarian governments that don't really hide the fact that if you oppose them, things will go very badly for you.
So perhaps that's why they were a bit more obsequious to power.
I get that.
But at the same time, so you've got, okay, this obsequiousness to power, I understand, but at the same time you've got the corollary of a culture which surely values the elderly much more, values community much more.
So it must have been quite a head fuck for these people to be told by their government, you cannot see your lovely mummy, you know, You've just got to leave her to die.
How do they accept that?
It's not really an Asian trade compared to some European and some African countries.
That ability to even resist power is harder, plus the indoctrination system here is very much stronger, I would say, than in the West.
The West is more sort of Huxwellian.
You can delude yourself with distractions, but it's kind of still your choice to take the Soma or to engage in this sort of stuff.
Here it is just obedience.
It is a virtue almost.
So I don't think they framed it as that, even though I don't know anyone in any Southeast Asian country that doesn't think their government is corrupt, whereas I know tons of people in England that don't believe that the government's, you know, inherently corrupt or evil.
Here everyone knows it, But they all bought it.
They were like, well, we'll all die if we don't do what the government says.
Obviously, they wouldn't lie to us.
They're trying to save us.
Like, well, you know they're corrupt and they kill people all the time.
It's like, oh, yeah, yeah, we know that.
But they wouldn't lie about this.
I think they bought it much more here than they did in the West.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then you know things like the... You know things like the Ash Conformity Test.
Are you familiar with that?
Yeah, so at least in the UK, I've got a good friend that was very active with the Yellow Boards, like going out, he sort of works as a spokesman for them, but I know many, many people in England that were like going for walks in the park, spreading that news, that lack of rebelliousness here, even if they, I think I know everyone that didn't get injected, you know, probably on the island, certainly in the era I'm in, it's not very many at all, they hit
Whereas a lot of people in England and parts of the Second Amendment states of America, they went out into the streets and said, this is all nonsense, I'm not standing for it.
So it's kind of a form of Ash conformity, that if there are people speaking out, more people will question.
If no one speaks out, then most normies won't even think there's anything to speak out against.
And also there was a lot more climate fear here.
So across the region, people were being taken to quarantine camps.
I know many people that were taken to quarantine camps.
I know several young females that were taken to quarantine camps where abominable things happened to them, James, you know, because they were seen in the shop and they weren't wearing their mask quite correctly.
And then you look at it, it's like, it's an attractive young lady.
So the policeman asked for money and then took me to a camp and then Favours were expected.
It's like, the authorities in certain parts of Southeast Asia can already be fairly gangster, you know, and it was just free reign.
None of the human rights agencies that I've worked with and supported spoke out at all about any of the egregious crimes that were happening.
There was no one watching.
How did you escape being sent to one of those camps?
I made it very clear that I was happy to be killed.
If anyone put their hands on me, I would do my very best to kill them.
People didn't call my bluff.
Well, I wasn't bluffing, to be honest.
I had a bit of an existential sort of wake-up, without being too hyperbolic.
I think I saw the devil in March or April 2020 moving through the hearts and minds of men.
It's like, I'll have nothing to do with this.
I will not give any ground.
But I did think, you know, in some bizarre ways, I was almost looking forward to it.
I was so torn between grief and rage.
I was punching holes in the walls of my house.
It's like I want to fight something.
So if someone wants to come here and threaten me to my house, I'll fight you.
I keep a sword behind me every few times.
When the lights turned up, I'd march out with a sword, so you've got an option.
You can shoot me, but if you think I'm going with you, I'm probably going to die.
But that's your choice.
I'm not going to acquiesce to anything you say.
I don't respect your authority, your preminence.
You've got some thought.
You see that school you went to?
That rough school?
It was meant to be.
It was a blessing, in many ways.
It was a blessing, plus working with wildlife as well.
And especially the great apes, like, before they get fully adult, if you just pretended to bully them, not that we bully the animals, but if something was being a bit rambunctious and you know it's stronger than you, you have to commit in your mind to picking up a stick and saying, I will break this across your head if you try to bite me.
And if they believe you, they'll only believe you if you actually start envisioning.
And this happens with dogs sometimes, particularly very feral dogs.
They can chase most normal people away, but they won't chase me away, because I will convince it.
It's like, if you come near me, I'll kick you in the face.
And then it's like, OK, this one's a wrong one.
We'll leave it alone.
And I've noticed the same with humans.
I used to work doors in nightclubs when I was a student.
And there were many people that, if I'd have actually got into a fight with them, would have destroyed me.
But I just made it very clear that, like, you will have to fight.
You're not going to destroy me just by threatening.
And most people will back down from the fight.
That is probably... it's been a really amazing podcast chat, but that's probably the most interesting thing you've said.
Well, the most useful.
It's almost as though... people and animals are... would you call it psychic?
But they can... they can read intent.
They can read you ten, exactly that.
Absolutely they can.
I think our minds are much more powerful than we quite credit.
And our intuitive powers are probably also.
I mean, you've mentioned some examples of what I suppose you could call morphic resonance or whatever.
Exactly that.
Sheldrake's work.
I didn't know.
I was going to reference him earlier on, but I didn't know if you would be familiar with Sheldrake.
I've got to get him on the podcast.
I think he'd be good.
And his son has done stuff with how trees communicate using the mycelium and the fungi create this network, don't they?
Yeah, absolutely.
And sharing resources through it as well and that kind of stuff.
Yeah, it's fascinating stuff.
I can't say that I know enough about it to be sure that it's real, but it's a fascinating topic.
But then, you know, when you say... I'm sorry, you first.
Well, this seems to me that this level of sophistication, this could not have evolved.
This could not be a product of evolution.
It's too complicated for that.
Yeah.
Oh, and also the darling of the West on, you know, propping up evolution is Dawkins, who's an absolute clown in my humble opinion.
But, you know, he's saying, oh, this all happened by accident because nucleic acids, you know, started building up because waves on beaches and then life on Earth.
And you're like, yeah, good luck with that one, mate.
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
But you mentioned something that I wanted to pull on, that an animal can instinctually read our intent, but I think that can also be weaponised against us.
So the chimpanzee, I don't know if by any chance you know what supposedly our closest living relative's Latin name is, do you James?
Do you know what chimpanzees are called?
No.
The Latin name is Pan troglodytes.
So Pan's obviously the Roman god of fear.
So fear and a troglodyte is something that lives in a cave.
And it's like, hang on.
Our closest living relative is a fearful cave dweller and chimpanzees don't even live in caves?
Well you're trolling us, clearly at this point.
But that intent can go the other way.
That enough people are like, oh yeah chimps, oh we're fearful cave dwellers.
We're one step up from something that's scared that lives in a cave.
And it's like, Like maybe the intent of the overseers or the farmers plays into our subconscious, you know, on a lot of levels.
So you think the Linnaean system was itself part of the psyop?
I think whatever this is has been going on for a very long time.
But nothing new under the sun.
This didn't start in 2020 and sometimes I despair a bit with a lot of the... I'm part of a lot of the medical freedom groups and they'll be, you know, discussing ad infinitum, the genomic sequence.
Did Ralph Baric know this?
Did Fauci know that?
And it's like, look, this isn't a four-year-old problem.
This is a humanity problem.
Yeah.
I could happily talk to you for hours, but my wife's ill at the moment, so I'm trying not to spend too long doing podcasts.
No, no, by all means.
Prioritise your family, sir.
I'm hoping viewers and listeners can pray for my wife's recovery, because I believe that prayer is really effective in these... Where are you on God, by the way?
I don't hear God.
If I see signs, I follow them.
I think I saw the devil, not in corporeal form, but as I said before, moving through the hearts and minds of men.
And if the devil's real, one can't help but hope that God might be.
When I saw the religious shut their churches, not that God needs any help from some ruffian like me, clearly God would not need my help, but when everyone else abandoned him, it's like, well, it's been a part of human culture for quite a long time, maybe some people should start, you know, saying There might be value in this.
So I don't resonate with any of the religions yet, but I try to remember to give thanks to God every day for putting me in such a beautiful place, despite all of the things that are wrong with it.
I think it's always a mistake to confuse religion with Christianity anyway, and I think God needs to be separated from a lot of the people who are purporting to represent him.
Before we go, I read this amazing book when I was out in Malaysia, written by a missionary who had worked with the Sea Dyaks.
Have you read it?
I've read a lot of the books.
There was quite a popular one that he was eating lots of things, travelling in a boat.
There's Sea Dyaks at Eban, and that's the tribe that I work with the most.
And I forget the name of it, but it's like, there were two of them travelling around in a boat quite a lot.
I read that one, and that's the one that most people reference, but I can't remember the title for the life.
I mean, there are lots of stories about, you know, headhunting raids and stuff, but my favourite bit was where he describes how In thrall they are to the signs given out by nature, particularly the calls of particular birds.
So when they're going out to sort of recce some ground to be, maybe some trees to be chopped down to build a field.
And if they hear the call of a particular bird, they will just go home because today is not auspicious.
They can't do anything else with that call.
And there are so many different calls that they have to sort of listen to and obey.
I used to, but I've spent years working with these people, tracking and monitoring to monitor them.
I will say that they know the forest better than anyone else.
And I've had enough times that I, someone say, oh, we shouldn't go out today.
I had a dream.
I'm like, nonsense, we're going out.
And they're like, we won't see anything.
And there's an uncanny level of accuracy to their connection with nature.
I'm not sure if their explanations are entirely accurate, but I know they'd be more accurate than somebody that studied botany or zoology from the West rocked up and said, oh, I know how to find the wildlife select.
No, you don't.
You need that guy in underpants.
Yeah, I know he's a bit weird, but follow him.
He's barefoot.
He'll show you what you need to find.
There is something to a lot of their traditions.
Yeah.
I think it'd be great, wouldn't it?
I think we are meant to connect with our surroundings in the way that those people do and we've lost it.
We've been deracinated.
We need to get off digital devices and one thing I've seen in the 20 years I've been here is everyone is online and they seem much poorer and weaker for it.
Our connection to the Creator, to wherever we are, Is found in the objective reality, the corporeal world, certainly not this digital world.
It's a sham.
It's a simulacrum.
Yeah, I'm with you.
Yeah, it's been really... Oh, by the way, I said to my son, I'm having a great chat with this guy and he's really bright and he's got an IQ of 166.
And he said, yeah, that's bullshit.
I said, well, how do you know?
Common sense is the least common sense of them all.
Now that's been repeated a lot but the people that I've really resonated with they haven't really changed that much.
They just look at things and prima facie it's like I have a bit of a problem with this and then I spend a lot of time talking to a circle jerk of sophists.
A lot of the big names you know I've interviewed a lot of them they're in the medical freedom groups and it's like what you haven't questioned some of these more obvious things like Well, I can't see why they would lie to us about the moon landings.
I'm just like, jeez, you know, like you're a limited hangout at best, or a useful idiot.
Yeah, that's certainly true.
Lots of the people I used to look up to as authorities, I now realise they're just Brainwashed buffoons.
It's nice being free of that sense that you're lower tier and that you'll never be with the big boys because they're so much cleverer than you.
And you look at the big boys and girls and you think actually they're brainwashed.
They're just stooges.
Yeah.
Or puppets.
There's a lot of puppets.
I've met a lot of politicians over my career.
I've met quite a few celebrities as well.
And a lot of them are clearly puppets.
And they're presenting on screen as something that they're really not.
Leo, where can people find you?
And if they're inclined to support you, how can they do that?
Well, my website's www.projectborneo.org.
We're a UK-registered charity.
People, if they want to donate to my work, are more than welcome to.
My website's a little bit out of date, but within a month or two months, I'm going to launch the most ethical candle in the world, James.
I mentioned it in you in a couple of emails.
And I gave one to our mutual friend to hand deliver to you when they return, and I'll reach out to you once I launch my website, so perhaps you might be inclined to help promote the charity.
People can buy a very nice candle.
It's genuinely the most ethical candle in the world, I think.
You can be a judge of it once you have a look at it.
The wicks are made from enrichment sacs, so actually the orangutan helped make these candles, and the money that I hope to raise by selling candles will pay for the food for the orangutan.
But I'll send you something a bit more comprehensive, hopefully within a month, and maybe you can give us a retweet or a post or something like that.
But yeah, they can find us there.
I do a lot of interviews.
A lot of my stuff's quite science-y and quite boring, and then some of my other stuff's deep woo-woo and crazy and gets banned off of YouTube within about five seconds of going up.
So equally, I'm on Twitter.
If anyone has any questions, always happy to talk to people about anything.
Right.
OK.
Well, Leo, it's been lovely talking to you and thank you...
Dear viewers and listeners for watching another of my podcasts, I hope you enjoyed it.
And if you, obviously once you've finished helping the orangutans, if you want to support me, I'm on Locals, I'm on Substack, I'm on Subscribestar, I'm on Patreon, or you can buy me a coffee.
You saw me drinking a coffee, I do still drink coffee.
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