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July 27, 2024 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole

01:37:34

Guido Giacomo Preparata

Guido Giacomo Preparata is an independent writer, researcher & publisher. He is the author of Conjuring Hitler and The Ideology of Tyranny and of several essays and monographs dealing with the issue of Power in contemporary society.↓ ↓ ↓If you need silver and gold bullion - and who wouldn't in these dark times? - then the place to go is The Pure Gold Company. Either they can deliver worldwide to your door - or store it for you in vaults in London and Zurich. You even use it for your pension. Cash out of gold whenever you like: liquidate within 24 hours. https://bit.ly/James-Delingpole-Gold — — — — Buy James a Coffee at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/jamesdelingpole The official website of James Delingpole:https://jamesdelingpole.co.uk x

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	Welcome to The DelingPod with me, James Delingpole.
	And I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest, but before we meet him, a quick word from one of our most excellent sponsors.
	James here.
	A quick word about gold and silver.
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	I think regardless of the fluctuations in the market, gold and silver are things you should be owning.
	I'm not a financial expert, but I own gold myself, I own silver myself, because I think that it is a hedge against these crazy markets.
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	Check them out.
	Welcome to The Delling Pod.
	Guido, Preparata?
	Is that how to pronounce your surname?
	Yes, that's right.
	Good.
	I mean, I do know I always say this, but I am actually really looking forward to this one.
	I think this conversation could go anywhere.
	Right.
	Because you are a polymath.
	You're clearly a very intelligent man.
	Just tell us a bit about yourself.
	Well, I mean, I was in academia for the longest time and then it stopped.
	I did varieties of experiences.
	I've taught at different schools and then I did a stint teaching middle school and high school in Los Angeles and then after that I decided I wanted to Possibly it was best to take a break and go back to Italy where I am now and open my own publishing house and see if I can do things that I'm just happy doing and eventually publishing other voices than mine and see where it goes.
	Are you completely out of academe now?
	I am.
	I am.
	Right.
	And do you miss it?
	I do.
	I miss being in a class.
	And there are projects with friends to attempt to recreate schools in our own terms.
	But yeah, it's nice being in a class.
	But as you know, it's everything else that's problematic.
	Well, yeah.
	Maybe we're going to touch on that.
	I know what you mean about the class thing.
	I love red-pilling the youth.
	I love challenging their assumptions about the world.
	They're so much more open.
	The younger they are, the better.
	Sure, sure.
	True, true.
	Although what we're seeing, what we're observing while we go out there and say things sometimes, there are very few young people attracted to politics and activism, but maybe it's what I see here.
	Maybe at your end it's different, but there seems to be less involvement of young people.
	They seem to have lost a little hope maybe, but maybe not.
	I hope not.
	About, say, ten years ago, I would have been what I would now call a normie.
	I was clued up on some things.
	I knew that the climate change thing was a scam.
	But, for example, I knew that Hitler was the most evil man that ever lived, that World War I and II were just wars.
	I was really into Enter my sort of military history.
	And I look back on this time of my life with faint embarrassment.
	I mean, I don't hate myself because I realize why I thought that way.
	And I think what I'm describing is still where most people are.
	They still think Hitler, Hitler, Nazis, evil, everything about it.
	So you've written a book, which I haven't read yet, I'm dying to read, called Conjuring Hitler.
	And I think that what you describe in the book is something akin to what is going on now in the world with Putin.
	He's the new kind of bad guy.
	But tell us a bit about the real... Did you emerge with a picture of the real Hitler?
	Stripping away the kind of the narrative.
	Who was he and was he popular?
	Was he as evil as they say?
	Little questions you're asking.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I thought I'd start with the easy ones.
	Yeah, let's start easy.
	Yeah, me too, Normie.
	Me was 9-11 that quote-unquote woke me up, and if we can talk about that too.
	Yeah.
	Hitler, I don't know.
	For me, I mean, one of the, when I wander and people ask me, where are we?
	Where are we?
	And I say the closest, the closest I think is Orwell's 1984, which, you know, is a classic.
	So if it's a classic, you assume everybody knows it.
	But allegedly, I mean, it's, it's, but, but.
	They don't, because if they did, I mean, you'd have a pretty much clear idea of where we are.
	I mean, and he was Orwell, the great Orwell, and he had information, and he wrote this book, which is kind of long, but aside, I mean, that's where we're at.
	We're in a technocratic machine, call it however you wish.
	I like to speak of um... glass and steel termitary we are very much in this cage and you know and everybody knows there is a minority ruling over a large majority and to rule over a large majority very much in a parasitical fashion I mean if you're a creature of privilege you see how it works in order to keep this going since it's unjust
	To do and discipline people into accepting this rule by means of violence and using the bludgeon and threats and fees and pecuniary excisions and all that is expensive.
	What most people recognize is that you need to control thoughts, what people think, their beliefs.
	And once you have their allegiance, then it's a lot more efficient to keep going.
	So, in the work for governing people's minds, which is the most important, and the system in which we live spares no energy or cost in working on that, it's important that you see your ruler as the good guys, and there must be a point of absolute evil for the scapegoating activity, as it's called.
	You have, I think, Each one of us has to see himself as a stalwart, a defender of the community, a paragon of virtue, so have this great idea of himself, and you need to have something to demonize.
	Hitler filled that bill perfectly they call him the Antichrist and so on so forth the most evil creature and it's reassuring and it's with the same spirit we look upon Hitler we look at all these shows about serial killers and all sorts of crazy assassins because it's reassuring that we are the sane ones and out there in some dark corner lurks the evil and Hitler presiding over it all Good.
	So, it's not exactly like that.
	Not to say Hitler was nice.
	Certainly was not, but it's... this picture is all wrong.
	I mean, it's... it's... so... what... how... what was Hitler?
	The way I tell the story was that... it's a long story, but...
	To make it short, and we can talk about the book Conjuring Hitler, if you ask me about what I... Hitler is a mystery to me.
	I don't know who he was.
	He said he was a drummer, he was a man with this idea that he didn't love violence per se, as we know he was a vegetarian, lover of animals, probably had more love for animals than men, I don't know, but
	He was someone who had this idea of a rebirth of a German Empire at the heart of Eurasia and was ready to sacrifice a lot of life to make it happen, not with enjoyment but with the need to create what he thought was for him the right sort of Empire.
	Something I call it like an Aztec Empire in the heart of Ukraine.
	A mad plan under a variety of reasons, most of them geopolitical, aside from the sheer violence of it all.
	But in that regard, a monster certainly, but not more monstrous than all of those that have contemplated shaping the world by sacrificing hundreds of thousands and millions of people.
	And in that regard, he certainly wasn't the first, and I don't think he'll ever be the last.
	All those people involved in wars and all that are just the same as him.
	The truth is that there's something eerie about that whole phenomenon of the swastikas and so on and so forth.
	I'm trying to jump to all the points you raised.
	Of course, there's a story behind all that.
	Was he loved?
	Was he admired?
	Well, truth is...
	In my book, I tell, I cite what for me is the most important thinker of modernity, and that is Thorsten Veblen, the Norwegian-American sociologist, and Veblen saw it coming.
	He died before all this happened, but he wrote some critical, amazing books and economic ruminations where he predicted everything, pretty much, which is astounding that only I cite him in that regard, but so it is, and it's indisputable.
	uh... some of the most amazing pieces of political economy where he saw what was coming and he even saw Hitler he draws a in nineteen fifteen when Hitler was on the trenches the perfect picture of the fury that was just forthcoming it's it's I mean, it gives you the chills.
	So, it wasn't that incredible, unique, that this kind of eerie piper would arise.
	Veblen saw it.
	And, success.
	He certainly incarnated a lot of frustration, but I always cite this datum, namely that in 1928, at a time where Germany was going through what I call the synthetic bailout, it was being pumped up and revamped in view of the forthcoming war, yes, Already 1924 to 1928, through 1928, after which the crisis will strike and the Nazis will rise.
	Elections take place and the Nazis garner, what is it, 2%?
	2.5% of the vote?
	So, going back to the question, that whole story, the whole story of the rise and fall of the Nazis is, as we know, completely false.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, if we were to look at things objectively, stripping away all that kind of jingoistic, nationalistic bias that we're encouraged to adopt, you put yourself in the position of, say, a British person or an American person in the 1920s and 30s.
	And you'd be thinking, well, here's just another world leader among many.
	We don't want war with this guy.
	It's not really going to affect our... Well, I mean, from the point of view of the British Empire, for example, Hitler was a massive fan of the British Empire and he had no desire to invade Britain or anything like that.
	And Americans would have been even less threatened by him.
	And also, they would have surely recognised that he was a useful counter to Stalin, who was probably, again, objectively, a worse, more dangerous person.
	And presumably, they had their work cut out, the kind of the propagandists, in turning this guy into the number one threat that everyone should be prepared to lose their economy for and lose their lives for, send their children to die for because he was such an enemy.
	So how do they do that?
	Well, exactly.
	The story I tell turns this narrative you outlined, which is the mainstream one, completely on its head.
	For me, as I dug into this story, which was not even what I had planned on doing at the time, I was just interested in doing a piece on Nazi finance, on how they erased unemployment, because it was something fancy.
	And then I kept going, and that's how the book came about.
	The story, as I saw it, has nothing to do with any of that.
	What happened was that at the turn of the 20th century, the world was essentially Britain's.
	I mean, they had a few things to, you know, settle, which they did in World War I, but I mean, they were in control of everything.
	And masters of the earth in 300 years.
	Astonishing what they did with just a small fleet and an organized army and technocracy.
	And as you said, Hitler was in awe.
	It has, you know, with two boats and three men that they could rule India, and not to mention the rest, in a few anchorages.
	So, something serious is going on here.
	A serious empire that worked very hard to be where it was, all of a sudden comes this thing, materializes out of nowhere, this German Reich.
	That's my story.
	And that's exactly what happens if you read All the pronouncements of British strategists and you see what happens.
	This is it.
	Nobody would have assumed that after that Napoleonic episode, Germany was just this collection of dupedums or whatever.
	They solidify and become an empire.
	Not just that.
	Not just any small empire.
	From a military viewpoint, aggressive, strong, organized, and on top of that, they had the best arts and sciences of the West, indisputably.
	And so, the British started to get a little bit nervous about the situation.
	Not just because they were a good rival, but because, in strategic terms, they were children compared to them, because they had no idea.
	The British had been playing the game for much longer, and were far more advanced, but nevertheless, but there was one geographical
	consideration that really was a nightmare to them was they thought if some way by hook or by crook the Germans start looking east to Russia and they harness that mass enormous land mass to their engine for us British we're a maritime empire with anchorages and so on for us it's over there is no way we can control and fight them back just too big there's too many resources and so on
	It's very simple military and political imperial consideration.
	And so, as I go on telling the story, it's not that I make anything up or have discovered new texts or anything.
	I take everything that's out there and I just sew it differently.
	And you see that it's not that the Germans were like nice guys and they just wanted a place under the sun.
	No!
	They wanted, they were certainly more confused about what they wanted.
	They wanted war.
	Little wars, little skirmishes.
	Have a few imperial outposts out there.
	They started building a navy.
	Not a big mistake.
	The British didn't like that either.
	So why are they building a navy?
	They did, nevertheless.
	I think Bismarck, old Bismarck, was not really favorable, but he was fired, they built the navy and so on.
	And so the question for Britain was, what are they going to do?
	And they already could see that the Germans didn't want to really compete with them, and they were not interested in defeating and harnessing Russia.
	They had this very contemptuous discourse vis-a-vis the Russians, the Slavs.
	They considered them subhumans and so on.
	Which should have been reassuring from the viewpoint of the British, but not so much, because you never know.
	And so, the story is that, to make a long story short, the British just started to say, well, I don't trust the situation at all, let's just start... So, the Germans wanted war, and Britain's response was, we'll give them a war, which is not the war they really want, we'll give them a different war, which eventually will be World War I.
	Which was Britain's war.
	And in that war, Britain's just was on a completely different level and seeing things on different scenarios.
	The Middle East, the creation of the Middle East was another big part of it.
	Because what people tend to forgive nowadays is that, you know, when they complain about Israel and Palestine.
	Well, you complain.
	All that territory is British territory.
	They won it from the Turks in 1917.
	It's their real estate, and they do as they see fit.
	And it still is that today.
	It's what you have to reckon with.
	So, but that's a different story.
	As far as Europe is concerned, I know they said, okay, well then they organized this beautifully.
	They eventually got the Americans in.
	France, they manipulated France fantastically.
	The Russians too, which eventually, and so they started this siege against Germany.
	That's essentially World War I.
	It's not that in the horrible wars along the trench, you know, trench warfare and all that, and people say that was just madness.
	These young guys, it wasn't madness.
	Yes, it was madness, but there was a design behind it.
	It was a siege against them, you know, they had to be stopped.
	What happened, however, was that the Russians were the weak link in this story, and then they collapsed.
	Not only that, as they were collapsing, because they were losing millions of men, and so they were asking themselves, why on earth are we doing this again?
	And so there was these talks, and the whole story of Rasputin is centered around this, because Rasputin didn't want war and so on.
	And they started to eventually come to terms with the Germans, so the British had to act on all fronts to prevent that from happening.
	So Russia was out and then the Bolsheviks came in and that's another huge story and then they had to bring the Americans in to redress the situation and crush them.
	Not crush them once and for all, but to defeat them.
	Hitler belongs to what I call the incubation, his act two.
	Of the story.
	So, already Germany was already weak and the Weimar Republic was not an independent republic.
	It was a captive republic.
	It was this big incubator where Nazism was going to be brought back to finish things off.
	Again, people say, how do you say this?
	It sounds like it's some conspiratorial jump and leap you're making.
	Veblen again.
	So, exactly what happened in Versailles, and we can talk about it if not, we can read it in the book.
	So exactly what's happened in Versailles is they're not really harming the German elite.
	They're harming the German people.
	But the elite is unscathed.
	They're going to come back.
	They're going to bring back a revanchist movement.
	He says exactly this.
	By leveraging radicalism at home and start a new war against the Russians.
	The Russians!
	Veblen fell in love with this Bolshevik thing.
	He was an anarchist.
	He was starting to hate the system in which he was.
	He was at the University of Chicago.
	He was an academic.
	And then he dropped out.
	He thought that the Soviet, which is an anarchistic concept, the councils, had happened.
	There was finally a technological utopia had happened.
	It wasn't like that.
	And so to answer your question about the narrative, one cannot really understand what happens unless you see that all throughout all of this story Britain's designs weren't against Russia.
	Russia will always play along with them.
	Because de facto, and this is a very long story, the Russian Civil War, those years between 17 and 22, a carnage.
	The whole, if you read the story, it's incredible.
	Nobody, no one, not even the Russians, the white Russians, the ex-Tsarists who were counting on Western support to defeat the Reds.
	Nobody moves.
	Unless they see what Britain is doing.
	And they're there, of course they're there, with their intelligence and a few men, and they direct operations at every corner, sabotaging operations left and right, to make sure that everything goes according to their plan.
	And their plan, I am sorry, a lot of people say, well that can't be.
	Well, it is.
	You'll see from then on that Soviet Russia, despite its really aggressive posture and its rhetoric and all that, is very close and works very closely in sync with England in making sure that Germany gets completely destroyed.
	And that's exactly what will happen.
	So, you're saying, what would an American... well, you're saying the 20s, but why is there so much resistance against this?
	Because in the end, for as atrocious as the Germans were out of the story, You know, the elite, the Anglo-American elite, who's planning all this, because we know also that the Bank of England helped the Nazis, but didn't help the Nazis because they liked them, because they were propping them up in view of the Second Conflict.
	So, all this scheming makes them look worse than the Germans themselves, and people can't accept that.
	But in my world there are no heroes.
	I don't think in nationalistic terms at all.
	I reject all violence, all wars.
	For me it's obscene, all of it.
	I root for no one.
	I just wish it came to an end so we can all live in peace.
	That's where I come from.
	Well, amen bro.
	I used to be of the mindset that War was kind of a cool thing because it gave a man a chance to test himself and see the elephant.
	And do other good stuff like defend freedom and enable us to display virtues like courage and self-sacrifice.
	I'm now totally with you.
	That I think all war is unnecessary.
	And I think that nobody actually... Ordinary people don't want war.
	It's not a nice thing.
	They suffer hardship.
	They suffer loss.
	It's really unpleasant.
	And that it is planned and executed in the interests of elites.
	So I'm totally with you there.
	You're touching on something that I've heard before about the Bolshevik revolution being essentially funded by Wall Street and the City of London.
	Why did they want the Bolsheviks to win, not the white Russians?
	Because for the same reason, the White Russians were very much the sort of allies that could have spoken to the German elite.
	They were, you know, Junkers.
	They were aristocrats on both sides.
	It was exactly, the British strategists called this the Eurasian Alliance.
	They were the exact sort of counterparts on the other side of the
	of of the east-west divide that eventually the Germans could have been speaking to make that alliance which the Brits dreaded so much whereas with the Bolsheviks, the Bolsheviks were like some kind of equivalent of fundamentalist nowadays which they keep on propping up with extreme facility in these other games they've been playing and uh... very dependent and relying on uh... western know-how that could be easily manipulated
	Do we have a lot of historical evidence and documentation about it?
	No, very little.
	I mean, nothing is out there.
	Yeah, I know about those books about Wall Street, the Anthony Sutton books and all.
	They're important.
	It's not very much, but my point is that you don't need the documentation.
	It's patent.
	And, uh, that, uh, everything.
	And, and why did, you know, Putin, it's the same thing.
	They, he, it's, he plays the bad guy like in a Bond movie.
	And why did they give, you know, Russia half of the world at Yalta?
	Well, because they absorbed the brunt of the night.
	I mean, they lost, I don't know, many million people for that game.
	And so, yeah, an extraordinary story that nobody tells, and I tell it in my book, that there were Russians who didn't want that.
	It was this, actually, Stalin's most prestigious marshal, this young guy, he's the youngest of all, he was this formidable warrior, former aristocrat that converted to the Red Cause, didn't stay white, he went with, in the other camp, Tukhachevsky, and Tukhachevsky
	Not only this guy was deep in the secret there was because it was a secret alliance with the Germans to rearm during the 20s was sealed in here in Italy under the supervision of course of Lloyd George and the British statesmen.
	So, Mutukheshevsky knew everything and he understood when Hitler took power says well these guys are coming for us and I don't want to see a butcher let's stop them immediately.
	We're talking 35, 36 and And he went, they traveled, they went to Paris, to London, they just told him to, you know...
	Piss off!
	And he went home and Stalin, he made an inflamed speech at the Great Summit there and Stalin just, you know, in due time during the purges, managed to have him accused and killed him and about 1,500 of his most loyals and cashiered, decapitated the whole Red Army for that.
	And you wonder, why?
	This is your best man!
	Why?
	Because he knew the war was coming and these guys were going to cause troubles.
	You had to wait until it was ripe.
	Not to mention that during this time everybody was fueling the Germans because the Germans don't have many... Yeah, they love war but they don't have much in terms of natural resources.
	They have coal and potash and that's about it.
	So they can't wage war no matter how much they want to.
	England through its empire was feeding him, which everybody knows but nobody discusses.
	First trading partner of Britain in the 30s is Germany.
	But Stalin too!
	There's these books called Feeding the Eagle.
	And this, well into the war, so it's abominable.
	But this is how these wars work.
	It was, they knew it, they had, this was act two, this guy has to be, Germany has to be revamped so we can crush them once and for all, which we couldn't do in 1918, and then they could finally in 1945.
	Right, so, what should we call these people, the British hegemony, the sort of the secret I mean, incredible people, incredible warriors, extraordinary managers of power.
	No question about it.
	Hey, I speak English to my Spanish friends.
	I mean, this is hegemony alright.
	But is it in the key of love?
	No.
	No, it isn't.
	I don't admire any of these people.
	I think people who use their intellects and...
	Persuasive powers or whatever in the service of evil then they're not they don't get any respect in my book.
	No No, not at all.
	I you know, I look I look at the the Milner group.
	Yeah Cecil Rhodes, you know, I used to think yeah, Cecil Rhodes great imperial hero He sort of conquered, you know created he's got countries named after him created Rhodes scholarships, which I now realize a part of the servicing of evil.
	I don't admire these people, they're scum. - It's power, you know, it's power.
	And I don't know, very few, we speak the same language, but I know you've encountered this with everybody.
	It's very hard for most people to think outside of these divides.
	It's always about, there's good guys and bad guys and power structures.
	It's very much, we're very much brought up with this vision in worshipping war heroes.
	I hope we were just brought up worshipping, I don't know, musicians or rock stars even.
	No problem.
	Not these guys.
	Well, I was thinking about how we are brought up, certainly in England, probably in other countries too, to see the First and Second World Wars.
	So we've got all these images in our heads of Tommy Atkins, the British soldier, Marching off to war enthusiastically with his cheery smile and his bad teeth and they're singing these songs like it's a long way to Tipperary and they're going through the hell of the trenches but it was all worth it even though we lost the flower of our youth because we were defeating this The German imperialist menace.
	And then you've got World War II, you've got Churchill, England's finest hour, the sunlit uplands that we were looking forward to after it was all over, after we'd made yet another sacrifice, and you've got Vera Lynn singing about the
	White cliffs of Dover or whatever and all the the Spitfire and all this technology and then you've got the swastikas and stuff so we've got this we've got this version of events and Meanwhile on another level much much higher than us ordinary ant like creatures or termites in a Termite area or whatever.
	It's called that termite heap You've got these people who are, it's like, are you familiar with the board game Risk?
	Yes.
	They're just sort of moving these pieces around and this is all part of their game.
	You've got Stalin saying to his best general, the story you just told, well you can't do that yet because the time is not right.
	I've got to hire Decisions are being made at a higher level than me, Joe Stalin.
	I'm just another pawn in their game, and you don't realise this because you're not deep enough.
	But that's how it works, isn't it?
	That's the level on which these people, these elites, or I call them the predator class... Yes.
	By the way, Guido, in the course of my journey down the rabbit hole, I've kind of formed the conclusion that a lot of these bad guys that run the world, they come from your country.
	It's possible.
	You know, the families like the Grey Pope, the Black Pope, you know, the Orsini family, the Papal nobility, I think they're called, the Papal Bloodlines.
	Do you know anything about those?
	No, I mean, no.
	I definitely read that the British Empire modeled itself after the Venetians, so yeah.
	Probably created by the Venetians, actually.
	Yeah, I don't know much about this story.
	I've read it cursory about it.
	Yeah, I'm totally willing to believe it, that we Italians are the worst.
	I mean, Voltaire says the French are the worst, but I'm ready to fight it out with Voltaire, who's worse.
	For me, it's just, yeah, it'd be good if we could move beyond all of that.
	But you were mentioning Putin, and yeah, the game now is different, but in Orwell's book, it's a different game now.
	There was some theatricality before, but now it's pure Hollywood.
	I call it Geo-Hollywood.
	And Orwell described it all, you know, these blocks, Eurasia, Eastasia, Oceania, in perennial war, it's exactly what we have now.
	He even prophesied the politically correct parliament of the future with multiracial representation.
	It's all there.
	And so it has to keep going.
	It has to keep going.
	Well, there is an argument, to which I'm sympathetic, that Orwell himself was one of them.
	If not, he was a sort of composite character.
	There's actually very little evidence of a real character called George Orwell.
	You know, he's supposed to be a BBC journalist and stuff, but actually there are very few photographs of him.
	And there are some very suspicious elements.
	The fact that his down and out in Paris and London.
	Very different from, was that really written by the same guy who allegedly wrote Animal Farm and 1984?
	But which, by the way, you...
	Great.
	What a mystery.
	Yeah.
	Not many people have read them, but actually in the UK, they are about the only books that British schoolchildren are encouraged to read.
	And I think there is an argument that this is by design, that this is revelation of the method.
	They show you what they're doing at the same time you're encouraged to distance yourself from it because this is just a kind of, this is fiction.
	It's just a kind of example of how things could be in a bad world but you don't live in the world where Eurasia has always been war with Eurasia.
	Yes.
	And yet it is.
	And yet it is.
	So you've got, in 1984, you've got the hate figure, haven't you?
	Emanuel Goldstein.
	Goldstein, yeah.
	Yeah.
	And substitute Hitler, even though Hitler...
	Hitler is enduring, but you and I remember Bin Laden.
	Now, you mentioned Bin Laden to these, my kids, it's forgotten.
	That has gone through like a trash fad.
	But in our day, they said, this is the most evil man in the world.
	We remember that.
	And we believed it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And there were these giant screens.
	I remember CNN showing these giant screens.
	They were playing in, I don't know where this was, in plants in the U.S.
	So the workers with their hard hats were just taking a break because they would show Bin Laden on the screens and they would just go and boo and like in the book of 1984.
	I mean it was, it was chilling.
	But, so, let's just dispense with Hitler before we move on.
	So, Hitler was essentially the creation of the British Empire.
	They deliberately stoked up the Hitler thing in order to find an enemy that they could then defeat.
	I wouldn't go as far as to say that they engineered him, but they definitely engineered a political situation where If Veblen could see it, I'm sure they could too.
	That something like that could have emerged so they could finish up what they couldn't do with World War One.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	There does seem to be a lot more collaboration between supposed enemies than is ever admitted.
	I mean, I think even in 1944 there were sort of meetings between High-level, very high-level Germans and very high-level people in the West.
	As if they weren't fighting each other at all.
	They were kind of... conspiring.
	Yeah, I don't know about that.
	For certain there's been a lot of brouhaha about the meetings that were taking place in that year, 1944, at the Bank of International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland.
	Of that, yes.
	They were there, they were sitting, all of them, Germans, Americans, British, all of them, around the table, I'm sure, joking with one another and eating I don't know, salmon and sharing profits of who owed what to whom and I remember going to the Bank of England for my book to get dossiers and files and those at the time were still classified they were not open to the public so the minutes of the meetings in Basel yeah I mean crazy right?
	Well yeah, so tell me more about the Bank of International Settlements.
	The Bank of International Settlements was actually shocked that central banker, first of the Weimar Republic, he was put in charge, he was put there by the Americans, he was a mason that was linked to the The Dulles Brothers, and then became Montague Norman's little minion during the Nazi-Reichsbank collaboration under Hitler.
	But this was before.
	His idea, he was one of those who championed the idea of creating a special bank for managing the reparations, which was another travesty.
	of this money that the Germany never paid, but was huge at the time for propaganda reasons on both sides, for lamenting the payload that the Germans had to suffer as a consequence of Versailles.
	And Veblen said, don't waste time about that.
	It's just like it's a diversion.
	They'll never pay anything.
	And they paid very little, in fact, not nothing, and so on.
	So they created this bank, which eventually went on to becoming something different from what it was originally created for.
	and but during the war it was some kind of a clearing union amongst banks for what I could understand and and they were there and there's no doubt this is documented they were meeting while the war was raging to manage business
	Yeah, but going to you, you know, cases of, this is classical, a Freemason explained it to me, because, you know, they tell you, Freemasons, when they want to talk, they talk to you as if they're talking to children, but I understand why, and so they talked to me as a child, and they were explaining that one of the main, there are several techniques of managing power.
	One of the classical and simplest ones, like the 101 technique, It's like you and I, for instance, pretend to be really deadly enemies, but we're really just managing the same consortium.
	We divided the pie in two, we just accuse each other and say during the daytime that we represent the opposite of the ideals, and at night we share and prepare things to keep this, just to keep power in our hands, we divide, we bisect, we divide everything into two Yeah, well, absolutely.
	the Cold War system, pretty much.
	Now it's, I think, slightly different arrangement, but this is how to do things, and this is why theatrics, moon landings, nuclear threats, crises left and right, are obligatory.
	They're part of the show.
	Yeah, well, absolutely.
	Yeah, I, so what, well, are we going to move on to, maybe we'll save it for later on, what we're going to do about this, about this stuff.
	But, Chris, they've been doing this since...
	Well, I mean, your compatriots, the Romans.
	Yeah, oh yeah.
	They were very good at this game.
	Atrocious!
	Atrocious, the Romans, yeah.
	Yeah, and then, as we've mentioned earlier, the Romans, the sort of survivors of the Roman dynasties, set up shop in Venice.
	And were responsible for things like the Crusades, and they were the middlemen of the Crusades, and they then sponsored revolutions, including in Britain.
	So, these people have been at it for a very long time.
	Yes, they're very good at it, no question about it.
	Which is one of the things that really annoys me.
	People say, well, of course, it can't be a conspiracy because nobody's that organized or clever.
	And you go, well, hang on a second.
	How do you think the world runs?
	Oh, please.
	Of course.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yes, I think so.
	I mean, but if you read and this is what you'll find, I mean, sure.
	I agree.
	So, before I forget, you mentioned Montague Norman.
	Now, I've seen his name crop up.
	He seems an absolute wrong one.
	What do you know about Montague Norman?
	We know very, very little.
	There's, at the very most, two or three very, very terse biographies of this extraordinary, extraordinary character.
	He is one of the protagonists of my book.
	By all accounts, the most important central banker of the 20th century, he was in charge for half a century throughout this whole episode and beyond, devoted imperial steward and a banker of absolute genius.
	So the story was that, you know, it was Montague's Bank that vouched for the Nazis' first sale of treasury bills on the London market, shortly after Hitler took over.
	So there's been all these, well, very few for those who wanted to go there.
	A very few have said things about, oh, well, you know, Montague Norman and his friends were a bunch of right-wing fascists who felt affinity, and they're just people, horrible people, who didn't care about ordinary folks, who just manipulated the rates of interest and made life hard for everybody.
	This kind of, generally led by Marxians and leftists and, you know, just clueless of what they're talking about.
	He is, he was, and also this idea that, and we have it now also, especially after the 2008 banking crisis, like bankers rule the world and Montague Norman was just A precursor of this complete nonsense.
	Montague Norman was a very faithful, obedient servant of the Empire, and possibly the very best at his job, which he dispatched amazingly well, even when Churchill was Minister of the Treasury at the time, in 1925.
	Chancellor of the Exchequer, I think.
	Well, he recognized that.
	I mean, he was just The economic general of the Empire charged to do what he had to do, and he did.
	Right, but you talk about the Empire.
	I mean, this is not something that is represented by the British government.
	It goes at a much higher level than that.
	I mean, the British, the government of any given period, they're just pawns of these.
	So who are these people?
	I mean, who was giving Montague Norman his marching orders?
	I don't know.
	Whatever families are the oligarchical backbone of the empire.
	Those who rule and still rule and it's them.
	A lot of people made a fuss about the appeasers.
	Oh my goodness, the appeasers in Chamberlain and all those people, that they had no spine, they were a bunch of irresponsible fools.
	Give me a break.
	Of course, to get to those levels, the selection is so tough, and people that reach those levels are perfectly in control of their game.
	And I said, first of all, they weren't incompetent fools, they were just playing a part.
	And then when they passed the baton, when the war started, When the Chamberlain executive passed the baton to Churchill, look at the executives, they didn't even bother changing them for the sake of appearance, for the most part they were the same people.
	That's really interesting, because I sort of grew up in my normie phase, reading lots of books about the power politics of the Second World War, The meetings with Halifax when there was debate over whether they were going to continue the war with Hitler and so on and so forth.
	But your view is that all this was theatre, all along, that they were all playing a role.
	Appeasement for sure, but you don't have to dig into any particular books, it's in the history books.
	If you look at the progression of Hitler, Hitler doesn't move, again, much like in the Russian Civil War, doesn't move, doesn't dare to move, unless he's told to do so by the Brits.
	That famous meeting of Halifax, who goes to see him, and he tells him what he's going to do.
	You're going to do this, then you're going to do Austria, And then it's Czechoslovakia and so on.
	And then, and then they have to change the game because after Czechoslovakia, they, you can tell they're changing the set.
	Some change, some faces are, you know, they move some people.
	Some are just dispatched to other places in the foreign office, of course.
	But in, in France is, it's funny to see France was like, what are they doing?
	He wasn't supposed to pass the Rhine Line in 1936?
	And he goes, and Anthony Eden says, no, you know, shut up.
	He may go.
	It's just like, it's in the books.
	It has to be, as I said, it has to be pieced together.
	So, were the British leading on the Germans?
	Yes, of course they were.
	It's extraordinary, actually.
	What surprises me, again, is not how evil this is.
	There is no good in this story.
	It's a story without heroes.
	It's power.
	What is extraordinary is how naive the Germans were.
	As fiendish, as entroculent as they were, they played them like rubes.
	And they did.
	When you were talking to the Freemason who was describing how the world works to you, he clearly wasn't a kind of junior member of the local lodge.
	He was probably 33rd degree.
	Yes, yes.
	He was bragging of being a very high level.
	Well, how did you find him?
	Friendships and acquaintances.
	This person was very well informed about all sorts of things and literature and esoterica.
	That's their field.
	And they can dazzle you.
	That's the thing.
	I went to a dinner party a couple of years ago with somebody who was a member of the committee of 300.
	Oh, even higher!
	Yeah, you know, and he was a sort of, you know, a bane and entertaining chap.
	I didn't get sat next to him.
	My wife did and said, oh, you should have sat next to him.
	He was great.
	He did give me some funny looks, so I think he knew my game.
	But these people are super charming.
	They're?
	Super well-read.
	Oh, yes.
	Civilized, you might say.
	The sort of people that you'd almost like to be running the world, except if they weren't so damned evil.
	No, no.
	Very charming and... It's their world, you know?
	Yeah.
	So, apart from the kind of spitting up the pizza pie and pretending to be enemies, what other top tips did the Freemason give you about how they run the world?
	No, I remember that one, and they said, well, there are many, but this is the basic one, you know, just pretend, you know, yeah.
	And it's... Did you... Go ahead.
	Did you sort of confront him at all?
	Did you say, yeah, you're a great guy, but you're bloody evil?
	Yeah, yeah.
	My wife was there.
	She was part of the interview and she was just dismayed.
	I said, you sounded like a child who was protesting and these guys were looking at you to see if you had that kind of shrewdness about you.
	It was pathetic to watch.
	You absolutely did not.
	Surely enough, you weren't called back.
	So much the better, what can I say?
	I just don't have it in me.
	Well, no, I understand it.
	When you fall under their spell, it's very hard to say, look, I hate you, you know, because of what you do, because what they are doing involves destroying Well, our lives, among other things, and ruining countries and destroying the world as it could be.
	I've heard you talk about this.
	If you talk to them, they don't put it this way.
	They'll depict themselves as these groups of heroic professionals who try to resist the dissolution of the times.
	They, too, portray themselves as agents of resistance.
	But I guess, I don't know, James, what your outlook is.
	Mine is very much, I'm very much a utopian.
	I really wish we had, you know, Proudhonian world.
	Free cities, federated across the world.
	Pastures and cows and people just mining their business and playing their fiddles.
	And eating sushi, I don't know, that's as far as I go.
	I like that idea, I like the sushi, I like the cows.
	And I've heard you say elsewhere, which is something that I'm inclined to agree with, you've said that people shouldn't need to work more than a couple of hours and that they've got the rest of their time.
	I think about how many jobs there are in the world, which are not just completely pointless, but actually destructive to, I mean, pretty much the entirety of the medical establishment, for example.
	If they gave up working tomorrow, we'd all be healthier.
	I know.
	Anyone involved in sustainability, anyone involved with diversity, anything, these labels.
	Right.
	They drain the economy.
	Think of how many people are in the banking and financial system.
	And what do they do?
	They just redirect resources to those few.
	That's what they do.
	While taking a cut.
	A huge cut.
	Of course.
	Useless Jobs.
	I have this book, I haven't read it, written by this American anthropologist called Bullshit Jobs.
	It's just about that.
	It's a thick book.
	It's on my shelf but I haven't read it.
	What sort of theological perspective are you coming at this from?
	Are you a Christian or a what?
	I'm born Catholic and I've worked five years at the Vatican as a professor.
	Really?
	Let me pause you there.
	What was that like?
	Well, an acquaintance of mine wrote, because I wrote a book after that experience and one about the political role of Jesus, like the political reading of, you know, using Jesus The willpower.
	And this colleague asked me, are you still a believing Catholic after your time at the Vatican?
	And it's a good question.
	I think I've lost every shred of my faith after that experience.
	And also, it's not that I am not an atheist.
	I still think there is something beyond the veil of death.
	The question is, I don't know what.
	But I went through a very simple reasoning.
	So going back to that story I was telling you about, which was a citation from not a very important book or a very important thinker.
	It was Eric Fromm, who was writing about Zen Buddhism.
	But that quote about there's few people ruling over a vast majority.
	If they want to rule, you need to fill their heads with nonsense, which is absolutely true.
	And I guess your experience has been the same as mine and many others, that after you read and read and read, you realize that you've been told a lot of nonsense.
	That certainly is true for the scholarship, but what about scripture?
	You know?
	And I believe the same applies to scripture.
	I mean, it's just stories.
	Well, I certainly take your point, and I was thinking of this only the other day, because I've got this side show that I do, where I do a series of podcasts on the Psalms, and I'm very into my Psalms, the Book of Psalms, and I think there's a lot of truth in the Psalms.
	And I talk to Christians from different denominations.
	So I had a kind of renegade Catholic Bishop the other day, you know, sort of Latin rites.
	I've spoken to Calvinists, I've spoken to Baptists, I've spoken to...
	Church of England, and so on and so forth.
	And one of the things that strikes me is that though they're all notionally Christians and followers of Jesus, their views are so wildly divergent, they almost might belong to different religions.
	And what I want to say to them when they're being particularly dogmatic with me is, what if you're wrong?
	But you seem very certain, but you realize that I've talked to equally faithful Christians who are very, very different from you, and they are equally sure of their faith.
	You can't all be right.
	You can't all be exactly right.
	And so I do treat, like you, I do treat Christianity as yet another rabbit hole to be Investigate it with a degree of open-mindedness and skepticism.
	I don't see how you cannot.
	Once you've gone down the rabbit hole, you cannot go, oh yeah, but the Bible and Christianity, they're completely okay.
	They're not subject to the same malign forces as all our other belief systems.
	No, they're sacrosanct.
	You can't do that.
	Not if you're a thinking person.
	No.
	Yeah, you've touched on another... I went through... I mean, we could talk for a long time about this.
	I asked myself this.
	What would people do if there were no scriptures?
	What would you do if you didn't have the books?
	One.
	And two, let's take Christianity for one.
	The story is, and it's not that I'm, you know, I come from that world, and there are a lot of amazing people, but as you said, there are a lot of amazing people in all sorts of denominations, and it's not that Christianity taught mankind to be kind to one another, we had that long before Christianity, I mean, so it's not that.
	But the story... Christianity is a strange story.
	It's a story of... Well, first of all, the question everybody's asked.
	Why under Tiberius?
	Why in Judea?
	And it's a strange story of a suicidal god, right?
	And why wouldn't he manifest himself anywhere else?
	It's weird.
	It's full of these other Gospels that fluctuate around it.
	Some are okay, some are not.
	You have these academics that meet in these councils to say what you should read and what you shouldn't.
	But the biggest red flag of all is that this creed has been sanctioned by the Roman Emperor.
	And I say to my fellow Catholic, it's as if Nixon had just said, decreed one day, that this sect of snake charmers from Alabama that has a story of some redeemer that went to some incredible story, is to become state religion.
	Would you worship?
	I certainly wouldn't.
	And so... Well, yeah.
	And why Christianity is what it is, and even our same Veblen, who wrote also very fine pieces about this a century ago.
	Others have said it, that religion is very much about crowd control, you know?
	Love one another, don't challenge authorities.
	It was the religion of the slaves.
	Not to echo Nietzsche, whom I don't like at all, it's not that, but it really was.
	Something that your life is atrocious, but in the Kingdom of Heaven it will cease and you will be the first.
	I mean, who can buy this message, if not, you know, the Helot?
	I suppose where I would... I am a Christian, and where I would differ from you is that I take everything on board that you've said, and I agree that these are questions that all Christians should ask, but inevitably,
	As I believe that the essence of Christianity is true, it's inevitable that the devil would get his claws into it and infiltrate it and subvert it in every way possible.
	It's inevitable that over 2,000 plus years, The sort of the umbrella organisations of this new religion would take on a political dimension.
	I mean that's a given.
	Sure.
	So you've got to find your way through it.
	But can I ask you?
	I don't think I've ever met anyone who's red-pilled, who's worked with the Catholic Church.
	I mean, how corrupt are those cardinals and people?
	I mean, how dodgy is the Vatican?
	Dodgy enough.
	I mean, I wrote a book after that experience called Empire in Church to realize that it's, again, same story.
	It's something It's something that there was a different jurisdiction.
	A billion people, Catholics, listened to them and not to the Anglo-American Empire, so they bought it.
	It's theirs now.
	That's what happened.
	But did you get a vibe from the senior priests?
	I mean, do any of them actually really care much about God?
	Or do you think, is it all about the power?
	No, yeah, that was it.
	They're just there to keep the system going, and their salaries are... I don't know, it's a big blur there.
	But my salaries were paid out of donations of conservative Catholic Americans.
	I mean, it's like that.
	But they didn't give me a clear... Regardless, but yeah, there's no interest whatsoever.
	I tried with them.
	When I got in there, I just wanted to do things on my terms, obviously.
	You always fail, but...
	to get them interested in these plans of communal renewal new forms of banking away from whatever all sorts of not in the least interested and so and in the end whatever I wrote it's not that you know it's not that I've reached these extreme things that I just said right now because me too up until that moment I was really hoping that through a Christian organization we could resist but I just thought I just saw it was nothing nothing of the sort
	What do you think about the power structure?
	It is kind of a pyramid power structure with, I suppose, the Pope is on the, well, I'd argue that the Devil's probably higher than that, but you've got the Pope and then you've got all the Cardinals with their fancy outfits.
	Which don't look like the outfits you'd wear if you were meek and humble and in service of the poor, do they?
	Do they come across like, I'm sorry I'm putting words into your mouth here, but do they have a kind of mafia vibe about them?
	Yes, there is a mafia vibe, certainly, because it's so opaque anyway.
	You don't see anything in the Vatican, and it's highly centralized and pyramidal structure.
	Yes, it is.
	But you also see where the funding is coming from, where the pressure is coming from.
	There's been a whole battle.
	The Vatican has tried to do things its own way lately in the last 20th century, but it's completely lost and surrendered.
	And I tell this story about even under fascism and Nazism.
	It's true, it's signed concordats with those regimes, but they were not friendly.
	They were marriages of conveniences, and they fought one another violently.
	and then they also kept with America also and there's still some parts that are very obscure uh... i still believe that the years of lead we had the seventies in italy was violent time with terrorism and all that was due to a confrontation between the u.s.
	and catholics of representing the vatican for vying for control in italy and other things and the catholics were were blown away it took it's a battle
	ugly battle that took about 20 years of which we know virtually nothing you have to read events in the light of that but so I was hoping I would find myself into some kind of faction that would resist over there but by the time I got there it was completely that era was revolved and yeah and what I saw was just dismaying aside from the pedophilia which is not to say that it's not important but which has completely destroyed the image of the Vatican anyway but and on every other front there were
	in deficit intellectually, just subservient to the system right now.
	Everything's been subcontracted to whatever Anglo-American curriculum in the social sciences there is.
	They represent nothing anymore.
	But very, very, very good on the part of the Americans to have bought this box, this outfit, because they don't have to reinvent the wheel or craft a new religion, which has been also main topic of imperial management.
	They can have all sorts of things, and they can take care of Catholics by just owning just like a football team, and which they do, and so that's good.
	Right, so what, the Vatican is like Manchester United?
	You think the Americans now control them?
	Yeah, it's like the Seahawks.
	They just have this team and they got it.
	So you think the American deep state runs the Vatican, or what?
	Deep state?
	The American state, period.
	There's no deep state.
	It is the state.
	Yeah, but I suppose what I mean by the state is that you look at the even American presidents, they're just They're bit players.
	Yes.
	They have no power, really.
	Okay, in that sense, yes, call it the deep state, sure.
	Right.
	But to respond to Christianity and about the devil encroaching, aside Christianity or not Christianity, or any kind of monotheistic traditional religion, for me, from a philosophical standpoint, if I cannot get an answer about theodicy that's convincing, I'm going to still be You know, tormented.
	Theodicy, how can there be evil in a world designed by a benevolent God?
	No one seems to be able, no one, and it was just formulated by the Greeks, but long before them too, no one has been able to answer this question.
	So I guess that's where the problem is, religion-wise.
	But I guess for all of us, most of us, Christianity was a perfectly good answer.
	But that's the big problem.
	I don't find the theodicy issue as puzzling as you do.
	Good can only exist if evil exists.
	Otherwise good is meaningless.
	That's how it has to be.
	So put yourself in a position of God for the moment.
	If you want to create a world with richness and meaning rather than just a kind of Eden where we all go around Hugging bunny rabbits and plucking ripe fruit from delicious trees.
	You've kind of got to have the bad stuff to go with the good stuff.
	And at that point you can't really say, well, I'm going to create evil but then at every stage I'm going to intervene to ensure that evil doesn't work.
	You can't have that.
	That's not how...
	I sympathize with God on that particular point.
	I think he gets a bad rap.
	I like that.
	Yeah, we should sympathize.
	It reminds me of, you know, that Romanian philosopher, Cioran, who doubts everything, you know, and of course he wrote this book called The Bad Demiurge, where he just, you know, he lets God have it.
	And because of all these, because of Theodosius, you know.
	Then he says, and then I walk into a church and they're playing Bach.
	I got it all wrong again because...
	And then he says, and I'll tell you, he says, Johann Sebastian Bach is a person with whom God is the most indebted.
	Because if it weren't for Bach, nobody would believe in God.
	Well, yeah.
	It's so funny.
	But Bach made it clear that he was doing it all for God.
	That's it.
	And I think you've got to look at Bach.
	There's a friend of mine who's dying of cancer at the moment, Alexander Waugh, and I spent the last couple of days with him, and he was playing But the last fugue that Bach wrote on his deathbed, and he was telling me about Bach because he studied music at Manchester and studied composition and he's obviously, naturally, as he would be, a massive Bach fan.
	And Bach was, yeah, everything he did was for God, but I think that Bach recognized that it was God speaking through him, that there is God within us all.
	We all created God's image, unless some of us are more awkward about expressing it than others.
	But I think that one of our jobs as human beings is to act according to God's will.
	And I think we know what it is.
	We all have an inbuilt moral compass.
	I think that's the deal.
	So you say For me, that's what's so so important and good about Christianity and about about Christ's message and so on that it is ultimately about Spending your time constantly wondering having a conversation with God and trying to do To do your best by him.
	Because there's lots of evil people out there who aren't doing their best, and we've got to kind of fight them.
	And that's the way we do it.
	With that, I agree.
	I agree.
	I'm not sure what that means about the big picture, but maybe the big picture is too complicated for me.
	But as far as a program, as you outline it, yeah, no, I agree.
	I agree.
	Can I just sidetrack you a moment, which I like doing.
	One of my favourite books I've ever read in my war junkie phase was Ernst Jünger's Storm of Steel.
	Im Stahl gewitten.
	Jünger, yeah.
	He's an extraordinary character about whom I know quite little.
	I mean, it's a miracle that he went through.
	He joined the Foreign Legion, didn't he, before the First World War?
	Yeah.
	And then he somehow went through the meat grinder of those trenches and sort of achieved a kind of ecstasy, I think, to do with just living through this storm of steel and somehow surviving it.
	And then he became a Hitler tried to kind of get him on board with the Nazi program, but Jünger wasn't really buying it, was he?
	So tell me a bit about Jünger.
	Yeah, this is another revelation of that mason I was talking about, Jünger.
	Jünger is, for me as a writer, stylistically he's perfect.
	I have never read anything as so virtuosistic as he amazes me, whatever he does.
	I think he probably could have risen higher than Goethe himself had he not been so, something bad in him.
	This Mason said, look, you know, watch out for Jünger.
	Jünger's a Nazi.
	And I think he's right.
	Junge was a Nazi.
	You know, he was in his early phase.
	And I've written about Junge in my book, The Ideology of Tyranny.
	I have his entire collection here.
	I read him in German with a translation.
	I'm not good enough to read him just like that.
	Cold turkey is too high for me.
	But he was someone... He didn't dislike the war at all.
	No, he kind of loved to go off on war.
	Yeah, and as he converted to Catholicism shortly before dying at 101 years old, and before that he said, I'm not anti-Christian, he doesn't believe, for some of those reasons we're talking about now, there are those who think that there is A streak of destruction, you know, of Kali in this world that you've got to account.
	A lot of Christians just, or a lot of people just do not give to this power of destruction its due or whatever.
	Him, he does.
	And this book on the Marble Cliffs, which is his masterpiece, people say that it was the book where he went against the regime and Goebbels got mad and Hitler had to reign Goebbels in.
	It's not an anti-regime book at all.
	It's very pro-Hitler, but it's defeatist.
	Yunga knew that this expedition in Russia was doomed, and that's what the book is about, and it's very, very important.
	It's the most important book of the Nazi regime, and it has a central role in the interpretation I provided, the only one that I know.
	It's in my book.
	I've studied that thing closely.
	And after the war, he reinvents himself.
	And his son dies.
	His 18-year-old son dies, I think, in Italy at the final stages of the war.
	And I think that probably was something that changed him.
	And he wrote after this that... And he wasn't an initiate himself.
	He wasn't one of those lodgers.
	one of the bad lodges according to our mason friend the anti-traditionalist lodges and then after this is why he knew so much and he could weave all these strange lore in his amazing fiction and after that I say Jünger kind of reinvented himself as a nice guy which he never was and was not very convincing still an extraordinary writer and he said before the war I was I forget how he puts it.
	I was orbiting in some bad area and I've given it up.
	Not because I'm a good guy, he says, but because I wasn't equal to what was required to be in those spheres.
	It's so funny you cite him.
	He is so, so important, Junge.
	Very little, in the English-speaking world, barely known, which is weird, right?
	Because he's such a pleasure to read.
	I mean, I'm thinking his novels, Hermesville and Heliopolis.
	I mean, he's just extraordinary.
	He's the second Junge.
	Yeah, very interesting.
	Yeah, well, This was another of the arguments I was having with my friend Alexander.
	You see, my view more or less is, anyone who achieved any prominence in history is basically working for Team Evil.
	Shakespeare, even the Earl of Oxford Shakespeare, you know.
	Interesting.
	Like Orwell.
	There's a friend of mine called Miri Finch who says, if you know the name, they're in the game.
	And certainly, I think part of the Awakening, One's Awakening process, we've described this earlier, is the realisation that everything you're told about the world is a lie.
	And all the people who are presented to you as significant figures, or even Like, heroic figures, Winston Churchill being one, Louis Pasteur, Edward Jenner, Charles Darwin, I mean, the masonic Charles Darwin, they're not, they're just, they're part of the deception operation, aren't they?
	They're high priests, yes, I completely agree.
	Yeah.
	Whereas my friend Alexander was saying, look, I want you to just think that maybe not everyone is totally evil, that there is good, that you can't read Shakespeare, for example, without being transformed and improved and whatever.
	But you've made a point, actually, I've seen you, heard you say this elsewhere, that, yeah, you can have all the great works of Beethoven, But the suffering across Europe that went into the creation of that music wasn't worth it.
	Yeah, I was citing the letters of the Russian Lavrov, who's one of the heroes of anarchism.
	Yeah, Lavrov was saying, you know, the arts and sciences are beautiful, but they're built on human labor.
	There's somebody who flips your burgers to make Beethoven eat to compose, which is great.
	But is it worth the suffering to get the Ninth Symphony?
	And I think, you know, and my father worshipped all these things, so it's hard for me to go there and try to subvert these things, because, you know, I was raised in this cult of Botticelli and whatever and all that stuff.
	But yeah, but I mean, the suffering of all those who sustain the arts and sciences has to be factored in.
	Yeah.
	Although, funnily enough, this actually brings us back to a discussion we were having, you and I, only five minutes ago on the nature of good and evil.
	And I suppose I'm taking the anti-Lavrov line because I'm saying, look, you can't have... I said we didn't want to be prancing around in the Garden of Eden hugging bunny rabbits and stuff.
	If you want a rich world, you have to accept that there are going to be flipping burgers for Beethoven.
	That's the deal.
	And yet at the same time, I'm kind of with you in that I think If we are living in a gigantic game of risk, where we're just the pieces on the board, we're not the evil controllers, I don't like living in that world.
	It's wrong.
	And there is a better world out there.
	But it's probably not dissimilar to the one that Christ was sort of urging us to, you know, love thy neighbor.
	No, I mean, what we call the Kingdom of Heaven is, as I said, it would... People tell me always, you know, utopianism is silly, it cannot happen, it's unrealistic, these ideas die with the ideas of the founders and all that, and everything has failed, the cooperatives and this and that.
	I still... I don't buy that.
	I still think we can do better than this.
	We can.
	And we will.
	But there's no way we're going to get there without... Look, you and I are both awake.
	And we look around and see what percentage of the population is awake.
	What do you reckon it is?
	Not much?
	No.
	5%?
	Maybe.
	And you see where the world's going.
	It's accelerating towards the heart of the sun.
	We ain't going to get our utopia Mind you utopia is not a good word because that's that's yeah, it's a pejorative.
	Yeah majority, but we're not going to we're not going to get our kingdom of heaven on earth Without the tribulation.
	I mean, to talk of it in biblical terms, are we?
	How is that possible?
	I don't know.
	I guess, yeah, but neither of us wants to flip burgers for, in the best of, if that's how, the bad there was, was to flip burgers for Ludwig, we would all do it, but it's not just that.
	I mean, we want to listen to Beethoven.
	We don't want to flip burgers, let alone suffer and be tortured for it.
	So, that's the problem.
	Yeah, but no, but I'm talking about what is rather than what ought to be.
	There's no way we're going to get to the good place because we've already established, these people who run the world, they've been playing this game since forever.
	Since at least Imperial Rome and probably, well, way before, haven't they?
	I mean, since the Sumerians or whatever the first evil civilization was.
	Well, I guess everybody asks, I'm sure everybody asks you, everybody asks me, what are we going to do?
	What are we supposed to do?
	To me, it boils down to two things.
	In a parasitical system of exploitation, they take resources away from you when they don't use violence.
	They don't use violence anymore.
	With taxes, And with the credit system.
	So what you have to do is that you have to be able to recreate a nest, or a community, and you have to do it like in a viral way, away from this one, under the radar, where you can avoid being taxed, so you have to, I don't know, get some creative CPA to create a tax shelter form to make this happen, and where you can manage money on your own, not recreate banks
	Inside this new cell, with what has been one of the longtime things of mine, the perishable clause, the money ought to die, which is where interest is coming from.
	This is one of the most important revolutionary concepts in political economy, right?
	Why does money generate interest?
	Because it's imperishable.
	So, the key to that is to issue these bills with an expiration date, which should counter-distinguish the new banking system.
	So, essentially, from an economic viewpoint, you have to achieve these two things.
	Because that's due to the two main conduits with which the predators, or the elite, sucks resources from you.
	It's more complicated than that.
	There's a whole architecture around it.
	Really hard, because they're not going to let you walk out of this nest to create another one, where you're going to subtract the resources with which they live.
	This is why I tell all these people that I talk to from all walks of life, a lot of Christians, Anthroposophists, and I say, look, we all agree, but you've got to prepare for war, because they have these ideas that there's going to be some kind of Peaceful transformation that's going to bring about these communities that we wish for.
	I don't see that happening at all.
	This is a system.
	It's highly conservative.
	It's highly proprietary.
	They're not going to let resources walk out, not in viral fashion, saying, okay, you know, bye-bye, I'm going to create my commune 10 miles away from here with my own communal bank, and I'm going to shelter myself from state taxation.
	They're going to think, you're going to do what?
	You're not going to do any of that.
	So, but that's what needs to be done.
	The vast majority of other people who are aware of the problems and who agree with what we would say will tell us, you know, look, say, look, desist, try to get a decent job and enjoy a month, if you can, of holiday a year and call it a day because, or else you're just going to be miserable.
	Fighting a war, you can't fight and feeling the strain and getting bitter about it and so on and so forth.
	Well, yeah, I mean, I agree with the theory of what you say, but you've seen what they've done.
	they've now so arranged it that nowhere in the world can you free to for a kind of tax escape or to create the kind of, you know, but people used to think of New Zealand as one of the places they would flee but people used to think of New Zealand as one of the places they would flee But New Zealand fell to the dark forces, as we saw during COVID.
	I mean, there were massive jab pushers and so on.
	It was a tyranny.
	They were even talking about hunting down people who hadn't been vaccinated, which was so antithetical to the kind of New Zealand rugged Kiwi farmers.
	Yeah.
	But the other trick they've pulled, I don't know how aware of this you are, but I think a lot of us have been trying to grow our own vegetables recently.
	Yes.
	And having great difficulty because they now control the weather as well.
	Yes.
	That, for me, I heard that.
	What's it called?
	Harp?
	Harp.
	Yeah, but there's these kind of devices that sit atop mountains in Italy and elsewhere and they literally control the weather.
	And I was out in my garden earlier today And it was really eerie.
	There are no bees around.
	There are no pollinating insects.
	It's not natural.
	It's like they're readying the world for the famine that's going to come soon.
	Famine, as we know from the Holodomor and elsewhere, is a great form of control.
	Starving people will do anything.
	And the water, too.
	Yeah, I know.
	But the most we can do is to get... Speaking of COVID.
	COVID, for me, 9-11 has been an obsession because for 20 years I just could not... I knew there was something.
	Finally, I came up with an idea and I wrote a book about it.
	COVID, I don't have... I did not understand what that was.
	Maybe you did.
	I did not understand what it was.
	So in our plan, when we want to resist, the first thing we can do is to provide a counter story.
	Say, look, no, this is what happened.
	And that can get people's attention.
	And then we can get organized and try to secede somehow and to create a space.
	But yeah, it's going to be extremely hard.
	Extremely hard.
	What were your conclusions on 9-11?
	9-11 was two things.
	Recreate a sense of bonding around the state, which America had been losing, and around the world as well.
	They had gone out there, actually, to control the heroin trade, to get the cash, a lot of cash, Uh, both, uh, mostly dollars that had disappeared in Central Asia, by reselling the, selling the heroin and get the cash back, as incredible as it may appear.
	Yeah.
	Oh, yes, sorry, so, so what, you mean that the reason for the Ameri-, the Americans wanted to go into Afghanistan... Yeah, to take control of the opium fields, yes.
	And they were doing that because... where they lost the cash in the... There was a lot... they were lamenting... I just put the pieces together when Biden just demobilized in 21.
	I remember reading these papers written by the UK and US central banks lamenting the fact that all the big cuts of dollars were just being sucked like a vacuum by the drug mafias of Central Asia.
	And that was a problem because the money wasn't coming back, it was being hoarded.
	So what they decided to do was to take possession of The base heroin, sell it from, as has been documented, with fear by a number of journalists, sell it through the NATO bases, get the cash back, and reinstate it in the banks.
	And the director of the United Nations Drug Division made that famous statement shortly after, during those days after the crisis, that if it hadn't been for drug money, The banking system would have collapsed and at that point all the dots were connected.
	Could you believe that?
	So 9-11 was planned as an excuse to go to war?
	To take over Afghanistan.
	To just take the, yeah, it was, there was a financial, monetary operation and also a big, there was a coup, there was a military, there was a political coup that took place in Washington also, and also to create a sense of patriotic bonding, which, you remember the 90s, it was... Sure.
	It was a time of, I wouldn't say freedom, but we breathed better back then, and that came to a sudden end.
	The 90s was definitely a better time to live in than now.
	In fact, you look back at films from the 90s, and the mood is completely different.
	Completely.
	The freedoms that people enjoyed, and there were no chemtrails in the clouds either.
	There were problems and forthcoming, but there was a completely different mood.
	For me, I mean, that was just a turn of the screw, a major one.
	What was the coup in Washington?
	Well, you remember they're starting, well, with Bush, thanks to the Homeland Security Act, they turned it, it was kind of Napoleonic, they made it much more fascist.
	Oh, I see, yes, I get that, yes, no, absolutely they did.
	Oh yeah, and then they sent anthrax letters, remember that?
	I mean, it was a great scare, yeah, yeah.
	Well, it was all fakery.
	Sure, sure.
	But the audacity of... Oh, they pulled it off.
	They pulled it off beautifully.
	Didn't they?
	I mean, respect!
	Immense respect!
	Really?
	Yeah.
	Really?
	In the middle of New York?
	I mean, I still don't know whether the planes were real or whether they were holograms.
	Holograms.
	Okay, the holes were round.
	How could that swallow a plane?
	Who knows what those planes were?
	Those, yeah, they were... But, you know, William Burroughs, right?
	The beat poet.
	In 69, he wrote this book called The Job.
	Naked lunch guy.
	And he said a couple of bombs on New York would solve the problem.
	He wrote this in 69.
	It was long overdue.
	Well, yeah, I think you'd have to do a few more.
	Geneva would be quite a good target.
	It's got a nice lake, a nice place, but a lot of the New World Orders organisations are headquartered there.
	And then you'd have the City of London, and you'd have a lot of places in DC and New York.
	They've got their tentacles all over the place.
	And Italy, of course, let's not forget.
	Oh no, we have had terrorism, we know, we know.
	Well, that was Operation Gladio, wasn't it?
	Yeah, Gladio, I still don't know about Gladio.
	I mean, I've looked into it, of course, but no, the Aldo Moro episode, you know, when they took that guy and the Red Brigades kidnapped him for, you know, 15 hours.
	Yeah, that's all fake.
	I mean, it's all done by the... I mean, I'm not saying the people didn't die.
	I'm saying that the people behind it were not the people that we were told were behind it.
	But you have to think, this is like snuff theatricals.
	I mean, they kill.
	Oh yeah.
	They do kill.
	Well, I mean, how many did they kill on 9-11?
	How many did they kill in the 7-7?
	Yeah.
	Two bombings.
	Well, they killed 71, 72 people, which is peanuts compared to 3,000.
	But yeah, you know, they kill.
	But people have difficulty imagining rulers killing their own.
	But I said, when did they ever show any kind of hesitation sending people to war?
	So, I mean, never.
	So why would they hesitate to do these things if it's expedient for them to have these events and incidents?
	Yeah.
	Before we go, Guido, what's the vibe in Italy at the moment?
	How is the resistance doing there?
	Whereabouts are you, by the way, roughly?
	I'm in Umbria, central Italy.
	Resistance?
	Not good.
	I mean, there's a bunch of all sorts of little groups, but they're all fragmented.
	So, yeah, it's not looking good at all.
	No.
	Yeah, I'm sorry because, you know, I look at Italy and I think there's a lovely culture, lovely food.
	The food is still good.
	Is it?
	Where are you in Britain?
	I'm in the middle.
	I'm in Northamptonshire, surrounded by good hunt country, but they're about to ban fox hunting.
	We've got a communist regime and they've got that zeal of the incoming Bolsheviks.
	They're really scary.
	I'm of the view, which is where I've got the advantage over you, being a Christian, I think that God's going to sort this and I don't think there's any other way around it.
	I think we are... Let's hope so.
	We are too far gone.
	I've been feeling this way for 20 years really, to be honest, but I hope so.
	I hope so.
	And how is resistance in England?
	Pockets.
	Yeah.
	Pockets.
	I mean, the resistance are the best people.
	They are.
	One of the great privileges of this era is to hang out with people who are, they sort of radiate this, well, if you make truth your watchword, it's a pretty good guide.
	It strips away all the bullshit.
	There's no bullshit there.
	So people have this sort of, I'm going to sound like a hippie here, but they have this aura.
	No, they do have an aura, yeah.
	So, you know, there is an upside to all the darkness and evil in the world.
	I think it's going to be shit.
	I think it's going to be really, really, really, like, you wouldn't choose what's coming.
	No.
	But as I talk to folks like you and others in the States and everywhere, I think I always say to them, I mean, we're not that few, you know?
	I mean, we're few, but not that few.
	And I think the thing we should do is we should band together, really, because we know each other.
	But, you know, I think it'd be nice to have at some point some kind of convention where we all meet in the flesh and kind of create something.
	I think it'd be important to do that.
	I think these gatherings are always lovely places to be, but I think their real function is to kind of give us that comforting sense that we're not alone.
	And we know who's who and where he or she is, and that would be good, I think.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	See, by nature we're not We're planners and we're not part of the system.
	That's the thing.
	The system has to, unfortunately, collapse under the weight of its contradictions.
	I mean, we're not going to win it by a violent revolution because they've got the monopoly of guns.
	No, no.
	Revolution, no.
	But, I mean, if we could try some of these ideas of, you know, if we can try to create job creation outside from the system with our own managed resources, some experiments in that, I think would be good.
	Just not expecting too much, but it'd be nice to have that.
	So, you know, we tried this, we built a farm with its own credit union and its artisans and we did it in this community and it's been reproduced here and there.
	We'd have beginnings to inspire something to be done when things will have collapsed or sooner, I don't know.
	Yeah.
	Well, I'm with you on the Commune, although I'm not sure I'm going to have many skills I'm going to bring to the party.
	Me neither.
	I'm just going to watch you guys do it.
	Just write entertaining articles about it.
	We can write the kind of the Commune newsletter.
	Exactly.
	That's great.
	People are going to be really grateful for that.
	Guido, thank you.
	It was great talking to you.
	Where do people find you?
	My websites are... they have to go up.
	I have one for myself and one for my publishing house which is called Atriarios and they'll be up soon.
	GuidoPreparata.com and Atriarios.com and that's where I'll be with the books and papers to download and things and contact forms and hopefully I'll be able to get in touch with everybody.
	So you've got, apart from Conjuring Hitler, what are your other kind of classics that you want to recommend?
	Well, I have a bunch of new ones, ones called Empire in Church, then I have a little mini-commentary on a grim tale about this world called The Three Apprentices,
	and uh... about uh... god and the devil fighting it out on this earth and then I have uh... my book on 9-11 which is called Phantasmagoria and uh... a lot of articles that I put on my websites uh... my book The Ideology of Tyranny which I'm going to sell from my own website I have a shorter version of The Conjuring Hitler book which is longer if you don't want to go plow through all those pages it's called The Incubation of Nazism all those books are on Amazon And others.
	I forget what else.
	Fantasmagoria.
	I'm assuming they don't sell to the point where you can make any decent money out of it.
	Or do they?
	Not there yet, but I have to be better at promoting these things.
	Well, I don't know, you know, the system is so stacked against sort of contrarian voices, if you want to describe us like that.
	We're never going to make any real money out of it, but it's worth writing it anyway.
	Sure, sure, sure.
	Well, it's good to talk to you.
	Same here.
	Thank you, James.
	I'm sorry I was late to start.
	No problem.
	So everyone check out Guido's books and thank you everyone for watching and thank you especially to those of you who support me.
	I really recommend it because, not just because I'm great, but because it helps you too.
	You get early access to my podcasts and vidcasts and things if you go to locals, Subscribestar, Substack or Patreon.
	Or you can buy me a coffee if you want to do that.
	Support my sponsors and thanks again for viewing and listening and thank you Guido.

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