Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

April 8, 2023 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole

01:45:41

Ben Rubin

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	I love Danny Paul!
	Come and subscribe to the podcast, baby!
	I love Danny Paul!
	Now it's another time, subscribe with me!
	Welcome to The Deling Pond with me, James Deling Pond.
	I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest but I am absolutely dying to hear what Ben Rubin has to tell me about all sorts of interesting things.
	Just to put it in context, Ben sent me a very intriguing email.
	Which I completely ignored for about a month, wasn't it Ben, or something, or I just get loads of stuff.
	You're a busy man, James.
	I'm a busy man.
	And then I read it and I thought, this looks like a really good story and it's the kind of Ordinary person who believes in the system mugged by reality and suddenly discovers how deep the rabbit hole goes.
	Is that sort of a fair summary?
	Yes, yeah, I'd say so.
	So before we go on, I don't know about you, but I've always had this suspicion about the cult of the NHS.
	There are various things that have puzzled me about it for years, even when I was a normal, even when I didn't really understand how deep the rabbit hole went.
	And there were things that didn't make sense.
	For example, I never understood the imperative of getting an NHS supercomputer, which seemed to cost gazillions of pounds, of taxpayer pounds, to no useful purpose.
	And there were things that puzzled me like, it was,
	Whenever a journalist even was prepared to write an article critical of the NHS, which was very rare anyway, he would have to or she would have to sort of genuflect before the altar of the NHS and make the cross signs by explaining how wonderful the nurses were and how marvellous it had been when their mum had breast cancer and all these preambles before saying, but actually I had a bad experience and I'm a bit worried that it's less than perfect.
	I've always looked at the NHS and thought, hang on, this is a sort of Stalinist healthcare system, a sort of legacy from the years after the Second World War, created by socialists on a model that is no longer any use to the world, if it ever was.
	And we keep telling ourselves it's the envy of the world, and actually it's an embarrassment.
	It's a national embarrassment.
	And yet still, even now, We have to click, we have to bang our pots and pans for it, etc, etc.
	So I'm really interested in talking, sorry to have bored everyone with that long preamble, but Ben, Ben Rubin, tell me why, tell me about your background and why on earth you're on the Darling Pod, first of all.
	Okay, I'm going to do a bit of the genuflecting as well, by the way, because it's important to do, because the NHS actually is, I think, The most complicated organisation on earth.
	And I've spent a lot of time looking at complex organizations and ecosystems and markets and that kind of thing.
	And I think the NHS is the most complicated by some distance.
	And it's all the things that you just said, but it's also the other end of the spectrum as well.
	So there are pockets of excellence in the health service, that's without doubt.
	And there are people working in the health service who are exceptionally well-intentioned and very smart and very effective, but at a systemic level, There's a rot there, there is, and I think it needs to be looked at because you don't get to fix things if you don't look at them.
	So before we go on Ben, just tell us who the hell you are, what you're doing on the podcast because you've got quite an impressive background and I'm interested.
	It's going to put your revelations in context.
	Yeah I think it's important to do that.
	Thank you for saying it's impressive.
	I just kind of meandered through it and here I am.
	So I'm English.
	For my sins.
	Born in 81, in East Anglia, lived around Cambridge, London, the Midlands, went to university in Leeds, ended up in London and in the consulting industry.
	And I've basically spent the last 18 years helping leaders of companies, mainly, so a lot of private sector work, but leaders of complex organisations to effect change.
	So if you're in consulting, I mean, that's one of those industries which pays really, really well.
	I mean, but you've got to be quite high-powered to get one of those jobs, is that right?
	Yeah, it was a professional role ultimately.
	It's a very diverse industry, but where I ended up was in a director position in one of the big four global consulting firms, which was also an audit firm, so that made me a professional person.
	I was able to do business on behalf of the firm.
	So yeah, it's kind of up there with the doctor or a lawyer or any other kind of professional person.
	So it's kind of a it's yeah I suppose you might describe it as an elite profession you know as ever like some people within it are better than others and you know I was I was pretty good and the nature of the the period of time that I was working in it and I'm still involved in it
	I think it was kind of unique actually because what happened between the years of about 2006-7 and it's still going on now actually but we had this whole process of digitization.
	So it was a wholesale transformation of the entire economic system from an old school traditional bricks and mortar pen and paper fax machine kind of model which had been in place for you know decades.
	And actually a lot of it been in place for centuries actually, you know and everything became digitized and everything moved on to mobile and Became virtual and that started off by transforming things like the music industry in the media industry.
	You're a journalist You'll be very familiar with all of this stuff.
	It's been going on for quite some time And then just worked its way through the rest of the stack basically.
	So all the different parts of the economic system and Because they're all being disrupted and changes being driven by the same macro trends, right?
	So the introduction of things like the iPhone and the App Store and the emergence of things like artificial intelligence and machine learning and the blockchain and all of the components of The fourth industrial revolution, right?
	People talk about it in those terms sometimes, right?
	There's been a wholesale transformation of big chunks of the system, and because of that, I was very lucky as someone who was specialising in digital to have the opportunity to go across the top levels of the system, because this was a strategic board level issue in every single organisation that we were working with, and speak to the top people, understand what they were doing, Get into the business and look at how the transition needs to be made and then work with them to affect that transition, basically.
	And that was a period of 10 years, basically, let's say, of my life, give or take.
	And that was, yeah, that was quite a unique experience.
	I'd say that's given me a, not entirely unique, because there are a lot of people doing this kind of work, but it's given me a fairly unique understanding of how all the different components of the 21st century tech-enabled, hyper-globalised economic system works, as well as how governments react to all that stuff, how the charity sector is reacting to all that stuff, what the social Impacts and implications of all that have been.
	And you know that was kind of a fascinating period of time.
	Presumably we couldn't, I mean I'm a Luddite.
	I think technology has done us more harm than good.
	Presumably if I'd been running a business, any kind of business, there's no way I could have resisted this stuff.
	This was inevitable.
	This was a global thing and Yeah, essentially.
	I'm actually kind of a Luddite as well, by the way.
	I'm not a developer, I'm not a coder, I don't know how to build the technology.
	My job within all of this is to establish specifications.
	So what are the requirements for it?
	What does it need to do from a commercial perspective and from a human perspective, actually, most importantly?
	So what's the market asking for?
	What do people want from this?
	How do they want to interact with these services?
	And it was, yeah, absolutely, it was kind of inevitable.
	It was the smartphone, you know, I agree with you, it probably has done more harm than good and I've spent quite a lot of time recently reflecting upon the past 10 years of glorious success that I've just described to you and thinking, oh actually, hang on a minute, was all of that quite right and did we think through the implications of it?
	Yeah, you helped build the prison camp, didn't you mate?
	Well, yeah, I mean, maybe that may be.
	Yeah.
	Seriously?
	You did.
	Maybe.
	Maybe we all did.
	You built the machine gun tower you bastard.
	Anyway, yeah, so you're doing it.
	But it's the thing, it's the same with anything, right?
	So it's like technology is as good or as bad as the people wielding it.
	So I don't think that it's universally bad and can be deployed in ways that is incredibly positive, but it isn't necessarily.
	And you need to look at how this stuff's being built, right?
	And actually that's, you know, a big part of what we talk about, right?
	Is actually what's going on in the health system.
	Yeah, because healthcare has come last.
	We digitise all the other bits of the system first.
	And the reason that healthcare has come last is because it is the most risk averse.
	Because it's literally life and death.
	You get something wrong, someone might die.
	And clinicians are rightfully incredibly skeptical about introducing new methods and new technology into situations where that is a possibility, so it's come lost.
	It's also the most complicated.
	Like the existing systems in healthcare are unbelievably complicated.
	Like the NHS is built on a whole kind of various different strata of evolutionary developments of technology going back right the way to the 50s and the 60s.
	And some of that stuff is still actually under there.
	So unpicking all of that is really quite hard.
	But it is happening, has been happening for quite some time.
	And I've actually been very involved in healthcare anyway for my whole life.
	Which is one of the reasons why I'm so interested in it.
	You know, my family, this is why I do the genuflecting, by the way, because it is important to do.
	Yeah, you've been brainwashed, mate.
	I don't necessarily think I've been brainwashed, I just think that it's important for people to understand that although the NHS is doing some really quite Very questionable things.
	There are people working on the front lines who are actually really well motivated and incredibly empathetic and they go into work every day to do the best that they can do to improve other people's lives.
	But Ben, that's because of the nature of their calling.
	It's got nothing whatsoever to do with the system of which they're part.
	and the system of which they're part brainwashes them.
	The number of doctors, I would suggest, who have been turned into radical leftists by the very system they work in, to the point where the biggest doctors are good at some things and not good at others, And I would suggest that they are not the kind of people who have the critical thinking skills which enable them to understand that it's perfectly possible to have a health care system, which is not which is not a top down Stalinist model like we've got here.
	They just buy into the system without even questioning it.
	And I can never forgive the NHS for that among many other things.
	Yeah, I mean, there's actually quite a lot of fight back going on at the moment against the system itself, right?
	So I speak a lot to consultants and senior clinicians and what they're complaining about is the interference and the constant fiddling from the centre, basically.
	So actually, people on the ground, they're not necessarily completely beholden.
	Although I agree with you that it's basically become a sort of hard left-wing shibboleth, like this thing that we cannot criticise and, you know, in a lot of ways it's kind of, they see it as an extension of the welfare state.
	Yeah.
	And a lot of that's to do with employment.
	So it employs, I think, 1.7 million people or something like that.
	And it's like, well, we can't change the NHS because then what would all these people do?
	We're paying for it with taxpayers' money.
	We should be driving towards efficiency and deploying those people on actual value-generating activities in the private sector.
	That's probably a good thing for us to do.
	But they don't want to have that conversation.
	And that's a problem for them, because ultimately they're dragging the whole thing down.
	And that's a discussion that needs to be had.
	But again, like I said at the start, it's an incredibly complex organisation and it's kind of all things at once.
	So as much as it is very left-wing and public sector and dominated by politics and all that kind of thing, it's also at the same time kind of already been privatised.
	Right, so people talk about this creeping privatisation of the NHS, but in many ways that's already happened.
	So what you see from the outside is the public sector facade, right?
	And we can go to it and it's free and all that kind of good, warm, cosy stuff.
	But actually, there's 25 billion a year going to Big Pharma.
	Every year.
	Right?
	25 billion pounds a year going to Big Pharma, and that's projected to expand considerably on the back of all of these various programs, whether it's vaccination or, you know, whatever else that they're pushing on us any given moment.
	Tens of billions to PPE manufacturers through the pandemic.
	We've all seen that.
	I mean, it was, you know, they basically looted the Treasury, overseen by Rishi Sunak.
	I mean it's absolutely remarkable what went on there and everyone's aware of that.
	So when you say they looted the treasury overseen by Rishi Sunak, you're saying that he was complicit in this?
	Well I think that anyone in the top levels of government And if you were sitting around the cabinet table, and actually probably if you were in the shadow cabinet as well, because they were all cheering it on, essentially, I mean not necessarily the PPE stuff, because actually the socialists think that the government should have done everything, as opposed to the private sector doing it, but they still think that they should have done it.
	So there's no argument about, you know, whether lockdown should have happened or whether the test and trace should have happened.
	It's just that they think government should have done it and the money should have gone there versus going to the private sector, right?
	So actually, it's like you're both saying the same thing.
	It's just that you would have done it in a slightly different way.
	Yeah.
	But I don't think that you could have sat around that cabinet table in any position at all, let alone the person actually holding the purse strings.
	And not have been fully aware of where that money was going to and quite how unaccountable and how disgraceful the behavior was.
	It's just not possible.
	No.
	Right.
	I'm with you.
	And as cut and dried as that, right?
	And that's just PPE, right?
	So actually there's well over a hundred billion.
	So PPE's of tens of billions.
	There's well over a hundred billion.
	That has been put towards these utterly ridiculous programs.
	The two of them in particular, Test and Trace So we know that 37 billion went to the Test and Trace program, and a big chunk of that went to Serco, and a big chunk of it went to a load of other people, and as far as I'm aware, I think still about 80% of it is unaccounted for.
	So that's 37 billion pounds in two years, 80% of which we don't know where the money's gone, and it delivered almost no discernible benefit.
	So there was no real impact on The spread of the virus, right?
	It was just spent.
	Yeah.
	And to put that in context, the Elizabeth Line, which has just been opened in London, that took 10 years to build and cost 18 billion.
	And we've been left with an enormous piece of infrastructure that is, you know, I've been on it, it's okay, it's another train line, great, but it's there.
	It's going to be there for decades.
	And, you know, they had to bore the tunnels and lay the track and do all of that stuff.
	I mean, there's a huge amount of investment and we got something for it.
	Test and trace.
	You've got double the amount of money in 20% of the time, and it's just evaporated.
	How much again did you say?
	37 billion.
	37 billion.
	Yeah, that's Dido Harding.
	We'll come back to Dido.
	Oh, yeah, please do.
	And then the other one, which is a fascinating one, Operation Moonshot.
	And a big chunk of this money went to Deloitte.
	Deloitte, you know, one of the big four.
	And, you know, they've been filling their boots on this, as they have with a whole bunch of other stuff.
	Average partner bonus at Deloitte is over a million.
	in the past two years.
	- Really?
	- Yeah, yeah.
	- And how many partners are there?
	- I'm not sure, it's probably a few hundred in the UK.
	I don't know the exact number, I'd have to look into it.
	By the way, the sound is much better when you talk nearer to the mic.
	Maybe you should move it, or... How's that?
	Yeah, that's much better.
	Okay.
	I was wondering how to make you do that, but... I didn't know it was so obvious.
	Yeah, carry on.
	So yeah, Operation Moonshot, that was...
	I think it was a hundred billion set aside to test every single member of the British population every week for Covid.
	That's what they were going to do.
	They were going to go around and they were going to mobilize teams of people and they were going to get all the testing and obviously people were going in and kind of doing this anyway.
	I've never been tested myself.
	But that was the ridiculous task that they set out to complete and to run.
	And who was that?
	That came out of the Department of Health.
	I don't know who was overseeing it.
	Obviously it was Hancock at the time.
	But a lot of that money went to Deloitte, or they were put in prime position to run the program, essentially.
	I mean, that's just crazy.
	You don't need to do that, because by this time, certainly if you're listening to this podcast, you probably realise that it was a flu-type virus, right?
	So it's not really that dangerous, and the idea that we're going to spend a hundred billion on testing everyone every week, when we've dealt with this for the whole of human history up until this point, without any kind of need for any of this stuff, is absolutely absurd, right?
	But obviously what we've got left, what we're left with now, is the infrastructure for a biosecurity state that's been built.
	So these apps and these control systems, they're a big part of the legacy that's been left behind by these activities.
	And to really needle down on what this is, for me, this is fascism.
	Cut and dried.
	Part of Mussolini's definition of fascism, and Mussolini invented fascism, is that it is the fusion of the corporations and the state.
	They effectively become the same thing, and they work to each other's ends, and that's exactly what's happened here.
	It's corporate state capture.
	Is the dictionary definition of fascism and actually I think anyone in any of these big firms whether it's Big Force, EY, KPMG, PwC, Deloitte or any of the systems integrators like Accenture or Cognizant or Infosys which is founded by Rishi Sunak's father-in-law who've been fitting their boots building these systems and doing this work on behalf of government over the past three years you've got some serious questions to answer as far as I'm concerned.
	That's very, very interesting and also simultaneously depressing.
	Right.
	So there's two elements here, aren't there?
	There's the one that's going to distract people, I suspect, which is here are these incredibly corrupt entitled parasites who've made like bandits at the expense of ordinary folk.
	People are experiencing genuine misery.
	They've lost their jobs.
	Their small businesses have been closed down.
	They have no future.
	Their health's been damaged.
	But But there's sort of an element in the country.
	People at the places like, one of the places you named, all the consultancies of stuff.
	Anyone lucky enough to be, say, Matt Hancock's pub landlord and stuff like that.
	They've just made obscene amounts of money, which we're now going to be taxed for.
	We're going to have our taxes put up.
	We're going to have, this is what Jeremy Hunt is doing now, the Chancellor.
	He's just trying to say, look, we've raped you and now we need to rape you again just to make sure that you've been properly raped.
	And your kids.
	Yeah, exactly.
	But there's the other element, the underlying thing, which I'm not sure is sort of whether it's planned by the same people or what.
	Which is the embedding within the entire system of the control mechanisms for the future biomedical fascist state.
	Yeah.
	I mean that's what these systems are essentially.
	They've put in place the capability for a social credit system, straight off the bat.
	Um, you know, that's that's already happened in China.
	It's been running in China for some years now and essentially that this infrastructure will enable that to happen across Western nations.
	Um, the amount of information that they intend to hold on us is, I think, absolutely unacceptable.
	Um, and once you begin to integrate, you know, all these platforms integrate in the back end and, you know, you've got big technology companies that have access to them.
	You've got all the different, um, ...components of the military intelligence infrastructure in the West has got access to this stuff.
	You know, they are coalescing around a single unified view of absolutely everything about every single citizen that exists within Western societies.
	And actually, beyond Western societies, it's basically a world platform, right?
	Because a lot of it is being built to specifications that are being handed down from places like the WHO.
	Right.
	And that's what's been going on.
	That's absolutely what's been happening.
	And yes, I suppose, and this is really why you're on the show, isn't it?
	Because you have witnessed this happening.
	Yeah, I have!
	I mean, I've been watching this whole thing play out, and actually, I've been party to a lot of the other stuff that's been going on in the health system actually, which I might just touch on first, because I'm part of a public health charity called Public Health Collaboration, I'm a trustee, and the reason I joined is because, well, first of all, they were actually the only people I could see standing up and saying things in public
	From within the medical establishment about what was going on over the past few years and we're actually critiquing it publicly so one of our colleagues has seen Malhotra as being very vocal.
	One of our former colleagues now actually seems gone on to fight his good fight and do his What a fantastic work that he's continuing to do but he was talking out in October 21 I think it was about the vaccination program basically pointing out actually this whole thing doesn't really make any sense and maybe we should be questioning it and actually that attracted my attention and once I got into the charity that he was part of which wasn't set up to do anything to do with vaccines by the way it's entirely focused on improving the nation's metabolic health
	But actually there's a huge amount of parallels between what's happened over the past three years and what PHC has been dealing with since 2016 when it was set up.
	Which is that the environment inside the health system, the information ecosystem, the way that knowledge and facts, essentially what are deemed to be institutional facts, are controlled
	And are pushed into the system by organisations like Public Health England, which no longer exists actually, it had to be disbanded and has now become what they call UKSA, the UK Health Security Agency.
	Oh, that's a horrible title.
	It's a terrible name, isn't it?
	Yeah, they love it.
	Also, a whole bunch of people from Public Health England, which had to be disbanded, now work in UKSA.
	Right, so it's just a kind of smoke and mirrors thing to make the problem go away.
	But essentially what was happening was the public health engine had become so corrupted with misinformation put in there by the food and the pharmaceutical industries, it had effectively become redundant.
	And a lot of the issues that we face today in terms of chronic illnesses like diabetes and Alzheimer's and cancer and heart disease and a whole bunch of other, like the biggest killers, can be addressed very effectively through changes to people's diet and their lifestyle.
	And we don't need the constant drive towards pharmaceutical medicine.
	is the kind of base level, the computer says no position of clinicians in the West.
	It's completely beholden to the pharmaceutical industry.
	It's basically set up as a sales channel for big pharma.
	And as I said before, they've been pulling 25 billion a year out of the NHS for quite some time.
	Yeah.
	How does that work, by the way?
	Is it a sort of flat fee that gets allocated to all the different companies, or what?
	Yeah, so they have some caps on it, and the pharmaceutical industry make a lot of noise about how difficult it is to make money in the health system and all that kind of stuff, but actually, in reality, They have been making money hand over fist in there for decades and they've got their tentacles into the way that clinicians are educated really importantly.
	So actually, you come out of med school, you're basically there going to be prescribing things to people because that's what you've been trained to do.
	The research environment's been contaminated by a lot of big pharma money.
	And you even have very senior private sector people from top-level positions in the pharmaceutical industry doing top-level drug procurement roles for a period of time before they spin off and go back into the private sector.
	And there's absolutely no, as far as I can tell, there don't appear to be any checks and balances going on around those roles.
	So as I said, it looks like corporate state capture to me.
	And that's that's true in pharmaceutical is also really true in technology as well, you know It's kind of venturing into what we were talking about, right?
	So, you know the the the system has been corrupted on the pharmaceutical side of things but it's also a lot of the technology the the NHS is buying and It should be able to build itself, right?
	It doesn't need to be working with these big outsourcers like some of the names that I mentioned earlier, right?
	So the Infosys' and the Accenture's and the Cognizant's and the people that are building these technology platforms.
	There's a lot of other smaller boutique ones as well.
	It should be able to build its own tech but it apparently is incapable of that and it wastes billions, tens of billions on programs that just don't land.
	You mean the NHS could have a department of programmers creating the technology systems that they need, or what?
	Yeah, it should do.
	If it was being run properly, I believe that the NHS could operate like a big tech company.
	And actually, it could be building technology for the British population and then licensing that over to international markets, and it can turn technology into a profit centre, rather than being an enormous overhead, which is what it is currently.
	And there are a few big firms that are basically, that the NHS is completely beholden to.
	You know, a couple of big UK firms, but also big international companies as well.
	And that's just in the kind of, even just in the more legacy, the older infrastructure, the stuff that's been there for a few decades.
	But even today, you've got big tech firms like your Microsofts and your Googles and people like that who are coming in and sniffing around saying, well, we want to run our algorithms across this and you can buy our cloud computing infrastructure to do that.
	And it's like, okay, well, Why do we need you?
	Why do we need you, American advertising company, to come into our health system with your profit motive?
	Because that's what you're doing.
	You're trying to make as much money as you possibly can.
	You're not there to... I mean, you're nominally there to improve the health of the nation, but also, let's be honest, you've got a share price and a whole bunch of people that you need, and a few billionaires floating around, you know, all that kind of stuff.
	Why do we need you to do that?
	Why can't we do that ourselves?
	A lot of it's to do with the NHS culture.
	What we call a big IT mentality.
	This idea that you've got to have a thousand people, you can't just have four people doing it.
	You know, which would actually be a much more effective way, particularly when you're doing something really innovative.
	You want a small team of people who can move really quickly and test and learn and break things and then when it becomes something that you can scale, then you scale up.
	What the NHS does, it comes in and says, well we've got a thousand programmers here and we've got two thousand people in the project management office and obviously we've got to get all the different people from all the different departments to come in and they've got to have their say and everyone needs to feel good about it.
	It's like you haven't done anything and you don't know what you're building.
	Right, and the whole thing is just over-engineered, basically.
	I believe that that's true across the system.
	Unless someone can show me some examples of where it isn't operating like that, then I'd be very happy to see them, but I can't see them at the moment.
	I'm also guessing that the companies that...
	These consultancies, these consultants that provide the tech, I imagine they charge well over the market rate because they know it's a cash cow, because they know it's taxpayers' money and it's so ill-run that they can't really get...
	Yeah, I mean, they are kind of screwed down.
	It's not quite the same as operating in the private sector, I wouldn't say.
	But there are a lot of, you know, there are partners in the big firms.
	The biggest industry sectors By some distance, in the big consulting firms, it's always government.
	Yeah, so they're kind of screwed down a bit on the price, but they're always the biggest sectors and there are people, so actually there was a famous example of back at the start of the pandemic with BCG, Boston Consulting Group, they were charging people out to the Treasury £7,500 a day.
	Right.
	at the start of a public health crisis right so we're going to come in rather than roll our sleeves up mucking and help solve the problem we're going to sting you seven and a half grand a day per consultant yes one person And what skills were these consultants bringing to the party?
	It's probably some complicated data analytics skills.
	So it's quite tricky stuff, right?
	It's not to say that it's easy to do necessarily.
	Yeah, and obviously there is a meritocracy within there, right?
	So if it's really hard to do then you can generally charge more for it.
	And if it's grunt work, then you're not going to get the day rates.
	But they have been in there earning a hell of a lot of money on the back of what is supposedly the biggest public health crisis that's gone on in a generation, right?
	So that's absolutely been happening.
	Yeah, this would be shocking even if the pandemic had been real.
	Rather than a complete fabrication, wouldn't it?
	I mean, the fact that it's a fabrication just takes it... Is the icing on the cherry on the cake?
	It just takes it into unicorn land.
	But it's bad enough.
	If the official version was true, that this was unprecedented since the Spanish flu.
	It's pretty bad.
	Yeah, it's awful.
	It's pretty bad.
	My personal view is the system needs to be replaced.
	And...
	You know, I was speaking to my father about this last week, actually, and his view is that there hasn't been an honest government in this country since the Labour government after the war which established the NHS.
	And that may or may not be true.
	I don't know if they were even honest, to be honest with you, but it's entirely possible that the health system is actually corrupt in its formulation now.
	Right, so the way that it's been set up, and actually UKSA, UK Health Security Agency, honestly it's the worst acronym ever, but I kind of like saying it because it's so bad, UKSA.
	They're being plundered at the moment by consultants, you know, it's the McKinsey's and the BCG's and the Bain's, it's those sorts of people on the four grand, the five grand a day type people that They're in there making a load of money, which as I said before is actually the technical definition of the word fascism.
	So we've basically got a fascist state paying people thousands of pounds a day, millions of pounds a year each, To build digitized control systems to manage and manipulate the population who have to pay for it all.
	Yes.
	And this is absurd.
	It's absolutely absurd when you look at it in context like that.
	And the thing is, most people don't, because if you're a doctor, you're not thinking about that stuff, really.
	You're focused on doing the day-to-day tasks, and the system's over here doing what the system's doing.
	You know it's kind of bad, but I don't think people really understand quite how bad it is up there.
	And actually, that stuff, my personal view, is anything more than 10 feet above the ground, just get rid of it.
	And actually, you'll probably find that you'll save a load of money, the service will improve enormously, and everything better, basically.
	I think we can agree on that, Ben, but I think we can also surely agree that it ain't going to happen, because this is all part of the plan.
	I've got this theory, which is that There is always the official reason that these things happen, which is public health is really important.
	We need a database to enable us to deliver our services free of point of views more efficiently.
	It's the national religion, the envy of the world.
	Et cetera, et cetera.
	And people are particularly more than ever concerned about health now having because their experience of things like long COVID.
	So there's there's there's what what you'll read in the newspapers and stuff.
	And then there's the the real reason, which in this case is that it is another way of harvesting data of exploiting us as sucking our blood in all sorts of different ways.
	So selling our medical information to outside interests.
	Whoever wants it, yeah.
	Whoever wants it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And it's more sinister than that.
	Tinkering with our, once they've got our A genetic code which presumably won't be very far away, they'll be able to do all sorts of things like sort of potentially kill off specific groups or whatever.
	Well yeah, so you've landed on something there haven't you?
	Because actually, so all this stuff's going on right, so we talked about the way the system is structured, the corruption that's going on, the amount of money that's being made by the private sector, the fact this is actually really fascist.
	And that it's been set up in a way that's really designed to enable this behaviour.
	And there's no one in government, as far as I can tell, who's willing to change it or understands the system well enough to change it, right?
	So there's probably some people on the left, as they might describe themselves, who may be well-meaning, but they can't keep up with these people.
	These are predators.
	You know, he talks about parasites.
	He talks about parasites.
	I talk about predators and parasites.
	Parasites, one thing.
	Predators, another thing.
	They move a lot more quickly.
	And in some ways, they're a lot nastier.
	Right, and the thing that is on everyone's lips in healthcare and has been for a little while now is this word genomics.
	And this has roots in the work done by Francis Crick and James Watson who published a paper in 1953 in Nature which laid the groundwork for understanding the structure and the function of DNA.
	And it's evolved from there into this interdisciplinary field of biology and it's about understanding our genetic code and manipulating our genetic code in a way that will transform biology.
	That's what people are seeking to do.
	And you know fast forward from 1953 there was a project which launched in 1990 called the Human Genome Project Which you may have heard of which after a few years was then headed up So it was initially launched in 1990 in 93 a guy called Francis Collins became the director of it Francis Collins has been Anthony Fauci's number two for quite some time at the NIH in the US and
	That program ran for about 12, 13 years, published around 2005, a whole bunch of findings and then building on that a couple of projects were announced by the UK government to take that science essentially and turn it into what's been described as a biotechnological industry that is unheard of right now, right?
	And they've been building the infrastructure to enable this essentially.
	So, at the 2012 Olympics, David Cameron introduces this thing called the 100,000 Genomes Project.
	So rather than just being the Human Genome Project, we're actually going to dial it up and we're going to get to 100,000 genomes.
	I don't know exactly how many were in the original project, but this was a step forward.
	And a lot of this is being driven by increases in computational power.
	This is all Moore's Law, right?
	So the reason that there wasn't much going on between 1953 and 1990 is because the computers weren't powerful enough to actually go in and And sequence the information, the huge volumes of data that exist in our genetic sequence.
	They weren't able to do it.
	So as the technology has become more powerful and advanced, our ability to do this stuff has at the same time become more advanced.
	So in 2012, David Cameron announces this thing called the 100,000 Genomes Project.
	The year after that, Jeremy Hunt, current Chancellor, at that point he was the Health Secretary, announces the creation of something called Genomics England.
	Which was put in place to oversee the delivery of that project.
	And that delivered in 2018.
	Yeah, so we got to the point of 100,000 genomes sequenced in 2018.
	And then from there, the strategy has been to turn that from being just a project, which delivered a set of outcomes, right, so these sequenced genomes for 100,000 people, but to turn it into what they call a platform.
	So that it becomes an enabler of other activities that are carried out by the NHS and by partners in places like the pharmaceutical industry.
	Hang on Ben, hang on a second.
	- One second.
	I'm doing a podcast.
	Sorry, carry on, Ben.
	Sure, so that's been going on.
	And that's all publicly funded, so you're looking at billions of pounds spent building a data platform to contain genetic information of members of the UK population.
	It started off at 100,000.
	They then wanted to push to 5 million people.
	I think they're up to about 500,000 now.
	But the idea is ultimately to build what they call a population level data set where every single person in the UK has their genetic data taken at birth.
	Essentially it becomes part of the neonatal pathway, right?
	So you pop out a mum, you have your blood taken, you're on the database.
	Immediately.
	Yeah, right, so it's, it's, it's, and they're doing that right now.
	And what, what potentially could they do with this?
	Suppose you were a baddie?
	I mean, never mind if they're good.
	Yeah, right.
	So he's presented as being the next generation of healthcare, right?
	It's all about preventative health and making sure that we can treat these emergent diseases, these really bad diseases that actually we know, at Public Health Collaboration, you could actually address by changing people's diet.
	So change the diet, get people to exercise better.
	A lot of these degenerative diseases, they go away.
	You don't need this thing to come along and start poking around with your genetic code.
	I think the risks are, I mean it's difficult to overstate to be honest with you, and actually if you look at what genomics is, I actually view it as a rebrand of eugenics.
	Right, it's about directing evolution.
	And rather than just doing it in the way that the Nazis did, because eugenics informed the Nazis' approach to the concentration camps, right?
	They wanted to ethnically cleanse their population in order to artificially direct it towards places where they thought were more beneficial for the people of Germany.
	Genomics essentially allows the same thing.
	It allows them to do it in a much more sophisticated way.
	And I put, you know, I think if you were a bad actor, say, you know, heaven forbid that a bad actor would build or gain access to something like this.
	It would mean that you could micro target populations based on their genetic signatures and you could have deployed that in a whole number of ways i mean it would basically be it could be something like well i want to invade a country but i only want to kill a certain part of the population and i don't want to destroy any of the infrastructure so i'll create a virus or a toxin or something that only kills these people boom done
	and and that information would exist within a platform like this i believe right yeah so i think it's incredibly dangerous i think It's like a Manhattan Project for healthcare, right?
	You know the Manhattan Project?
	Yeah.
	To build the atomic bomb during the Second World War.
	I think it's at that level.
	I would imagine that, I'm sure I've read articles to this effect, where they talk about the wonderful Potential of the human genome project and they would talk about they would they would single out sort of fashionable Obscure diseases like sickle cell anemia and they would say This is created.
	This is this is particularly harming the black community because a genetic defect has made them vulnerable to this condition which is which is curable if only we can tamper with the genes and and we can edit it out of our Out of our system.
	Is that how they do it?
	Exactly, yeah.
	I mean, I can't speak to Sickle Cell, right?
	Yeah, whatever.
	No, no, it's a very good example.
	But yeah, you're absolutely right.
	And that's how it's presented, right?
	So if you really want to understand what this is, the best place to start is reading Genome UK, which was the strategy set out by Lord Bethel, right?
	He was so dodgy, isn't he?
	There's something really creepy about him.
	Yeah, I agree.
	Yeah, I see anyone circulating around the top levels of the Tory party, and I don't trust Labour anymore, by the way, they just corrupt in a different way.
	I question them.
	I'm deeply untrustworthy about them.
	I mean, just as one example, Waldo Bethel was writing this strategy for the future of healthcare, and as I understand, he's a completely unelected official, by the way.
	just a mate of Bojo's from Oxford days kind of thing, right?
	You know, and actually, you know, the same with Dido Harding, actually, right?
	It's like if you did PPE at Oxford or Modern History or something like that in the late 80s and you're in the crowd, then here you are, you're now running the country.
	Hey-ho, let's go at it.
	But, you know, while he was writing this report, he was also getting into an £85 million PPE scandal, right?
	So he's got his fingers all over this misuse of public funds stuff that was going on during the pandemic, while at the same time writing this report which sets out the future of the British healthcare system.
	So hang on a minute, why?
	Why would we allow this guy who appears to be demonstrably criminal and hangs around with people who are extremely nasty and noxious to define the future strategy for our health system?
	That seems like a really really bad idea.
	That's just one example, by the way.
	There's also, you know, the Topol Review, which was written a few years before, which sets out a roadmap for the future technology that's going to be used across the NHS.
	And Eric Topol was a signatory of a letter denouncing Robert Malone when Malone went on to Joe Rogan's podcast at the end of 2021 and basically said, hey guys, this vaccine program appears to be going completely off, like it's completely out of whack and it needs to be examined and probably stopped.
	Topol was one of the people who signed the letter saying we can't listen to this guy he's dangerous and as far as I'm concerned Malone is basically a hero and he's been right on pretty much everything he said so then makes me go well hang in a minute Topol why are we going to implement your technology strategy shouldn't we be reviewing that too should we not be reviewing Lord Bethel's Genome UK strategy.
	Particularly when you look into what they actually say that it's going to do.
	Benjamin Netanyahu talked about this.
	He described it as a biotechnological industry that is unheard of right now, unimagined even, because the Israelis are building one as well.
	And actually the ecosystem of people and the companies and the partners that are circulating around this, it would deep roots into Israel as well as into the US.
	And actually a lot of the technology that is being used to enable this stuff is being created by an American company called Illumina, right?
	So they make the machines that do the genomic sequencing, Illumina, right?
	That's got a nice ring about it.
	It does, doesn't it?
	Yeah.
	What about Satana?
	That would be another thing, wouldn't it?
	Right.
	With Sephira.
	Yes, well quite, yeah exactly.
	When I was thinking about this, you know when you, we work in a company, I used to work a company called Seren and we used to call each other the Serenites, you know, and then there was a company called Bow and Arrow and we were called the Archers, you know.
	What do you think the Illumina call themselves?
	Oh, I can't think.
	Illuminatrons?
	No.
	I have to have a think about it.
	So you've got this guy, so Francis D'Souza, he's the CEO and he's also on the board of Disney by the way.
	Remarkably.
	They love kids at Disney.
	Yeah, apparently they do.
	And also Phil Schiller's on the board of Illumina.
	He's on the board of Apple.
	Scott Gottlieb, who's a former FDA commissioner and now on the board of Pfizer.
	So he's gone, you know, gamekeeper turned poacher big time.
	And he's also on the board of Illumina.
	And David Cameron.
	Yeah, right.
	So David Cameron, our former PM, Flashman himself, who announced the project in the first place, back in 2012 at the Olympic Games, announced that this was the 100,000 Genomes project.
	He's now lobbying for them.
	So he's being paid by Illumina to promote their agenda and obviously him and Bojo and Bethan and all that, they go way back.
	This is all a bit suspect isn't it?
	I go way back with these people as well.
	I mean I really do.
	I used to smoke joints with David Cameron in my room in Peckwater 3 at Oxford and I'm thinking why aren't I a consultant at Illumina or a Blackrock or these other lovely... because I knew Bethel.
	I knew Osbourne.
	I used to see him in the school playground because our kids were at the same school for a while.
	I knew Cameron, I knew Bojo.
	All these people.
	You're right.
	I mean, it is a kind of... He has gone and looked through his yearbook for 80 people who would have matriculated in 84, 83, 85.
	It's that Oxford generation.
	It's extraordinary.
	Yeah, it is extraordinary.
	It really is extraordinary.
	People have been talking about this crowd for a little while.
	Ever since they took power in 2010.
	They're known and they've done what they've done.
	They've been running the country.
	As far as I'm concerned, they're running it into the ground.
	Blair was doing a good job of laying the groundwork for that before them as well, so it's not down to them.
	It's probably 25, 30, 40 years worth of governance that's got us into the position that we're in today.
	I was going to ask you that.
	Do you think that all this was planned a very long time ago?
	Rapidly accelerating managed decline is where we're at now.
	That's how I would describe the system as it's currently set up.
	They're deliberately trying to destroy the system so that they can replace it with something else.
	It's probably heavily linked into these digital control systems and the central bank digital currency and all these things that are now sort of coalescing much more closely together into something which is recognizably ah okay this is probably um getting a little bit a little bit um a little bit too real for people you know and people are going to have to you got people are going to have to come it's one of the reasons i'm doing this now right is a bit we've collectively got to come together as outside of the political system outside of the health system as a society as a united people
	yeah british people english people we got to talk about this because there is a very clear direction of travel and no matter whatever the hand waving and the fanfare and the oo this oo that going on in the houses of parliament or anywhere else in the media the direction of travel is clear it hasn't changed and And if we want to retain any vestige of Britain as we knew it, or what we thought it was,
	And what I think it still is, actually, in the hearts and minds of the vast majority of the population, then we've got to work out how to change tack here.
	There's no question about it, right?
	Because this whole thing stinks.
	I mean, just one example, right?
	So this guy, Francis D'Souza, at the World Economic Forum in mid-Jan, sitting on stage, talking about the sequencing that they did for COVID, right?
	The CEO of Illumina was in China in late 2019 and he did the sequencing of COVID on behalf of the Chinese government.
	Software, essentially, because they're taking a biological problem, they're turning it into a software problem.
	That was what was provided to Moderna and BioNTech to create their vaccines, right?
	Yes.
	So this very small group of people in the top levels of the technology and the pharmaceutical industries and collaborating with tyrannical dictators like the CCP have then been the people driving the response to this virus, right?
	So then Moderna, which has created a whole bunch of billionaires, and, you know, what's his name?
	Stefan Bocel was, I think that's right, it was up in front of, you know, Rand Paul last week getting questioned about all this stuff.
	And, you know, and BioNTech, which is basically the Pfizer vaccine, you know, the billions that have been made on the back of the work that's been done by these people, we've got direct links into the top levels of British government, and there are too many dots connecting at this and there are too many dots connecting at this point for this to be ignored, right?
	This is not noise.
	Yeah, and I think it's the most important thing for people to understand.
	This is the signal now.
	It's not conspiracy theory.
	Oh goodness me, aren't these people being ridiculous?
	If you actually take the time to step back and look at it, it's quite clear that there's something going on.
	And I think it has to be addressed, and it has to be addressed at a social level.
	It has to be addressed in society because the politicians aren't going to sort it out.
	They're either complicit or they're just useful idiots, a lot of them.
	They just do whatever they're told.
	And they're quite happy playing political games and virtue signalling about this, that, and whatever while this thing just rumbles on in the background.
	Yeah.
	And it's becoming incredibly dangerous.
	And actually, a lot of people think, okay, we know these things sort themselves out, don't they?
	We've got all the regulators there.
	That's the Toby line.
	Yeah, right.
	Okay, is it?
	Pretty much, you know, yeah, it's fine.
	It's gonna be fine because because people will resist right?
	Yeah Okay, I mean people people are very complacent.
	Yeah, and actually, you know, one of the things I Some of the stuff that I've seen over the past few years.
	I've spent a lot of time out on the street going to the protests and meeting people.
	You go and talk to the special forces operators out there going, look, there's something going on here.
	Former paras, people who are in the elite regiments of the British military, out on the streets of London saying, look, we've done an extremely good job over the past couple of centuries of protecting the British people from invasion.
	Right, but what we're seeing here, the psychological tactics that are being used, the way that the media is being manipulated, all of this divide and rule stuff that's going on, pitting different parts of the population together against these sort of polar opposite things, whether that's about race or gender or sexual orientation, whatever it might be, that is a ruse to distract us from something nefarious, and I think that it's this.
	Yeah.
	Right, right.
	It's these digital control platforms and it's the fact that they want your DNA.
	There's a war going on for your DNA.
	So this is it, this is their control mechanism, the biosecurity state.
	Yeah.
	And you haven't mentioned technocracy but it seems to me that genomics is intimately related with the technocratic vision.
	Yeah, well, I mean, these people believe that they can and have the right to manipulate Creation.
	Yes.
	Like evolution.
	To control it and to direct it to their own ends.
	And they'll talk about it in the context of improving human life and healthcare and all these kind of nice fluffy things.
	When you dig into it, it's profoundly evil, I think.
	And it's really set up in a way that it's designed to make a lot of money for a very small group of people, like most of these things are.
	And a lot of the investments in this biotechnological industry, which is being built on the back of the British taxpayer in this instance, but ultimately the goal will be for this to be a global platform.
	They'll be playing the global monopoly game, which is the game that the big tech firms have been playing for the past 30, 40 years, right?
	There's a dominant player of one in each different industry category.
	In music, it's Spotify.
	In search, it's Google.
	In social media, it's Facebook, although that's changing a bit with TikTok and people like that, right?
	But essentially, these are monopoly platforms, and they want this to be the Spotify of Genomics right which will mean that it will be what the one or one of a very small group of dominant global players Who are focused on this?
	This marketplace, this data ecosystem, right?
	And they'll have that information, so they'll have your genetic data, and obviously that will then be integrated alongside all the other information they have about you, and that again, as I was saying, is going to coalesce towards a total ownership of you, really, your deepest thoughts even.
	You know, they're already getting into things like Pre-emptive censorship.
	So based on your behavior patterns, they think that you're about to say something.
	So they'll insert a bit of information into your timeline which will prevent you from saying the thing that they thought you were about to say.
	That's already happening.
	Really?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	That's already happening.
	Yeah, if you think about Facebook and Instagram, they've probably been doing that for quite some time.
	There's a whole bunch of things that they've been doing.
	This is a cyber war that we've been living through.
	So that's already going on.
	So they know what you've been searching for on the internet, they know what you've been spending your money on, and very soon if they get the CBDC and they'll be able to control how you spend your money, Yeah, they'll be able to manipulate your bank balance.
	They'll be able to take money out of your account.
	They'll be able to force you to spend it, so in case it expires, they'll be able to control where you're able to use it by geolocating you.
	So this 15-minute city thing, for example, will become very real when you aren't able to spend your money outside of your 15-minute city, right?
	Essentially, it's the capability for what I describe as a global concentration camp.
	That's what it is, yeah, and it's all linked into these technologies, into the phones and the way that they're being used by... These are tyrants, they're dictators, these fascists in central government.
	When you were working on this stuff, when you still are working on this stuff, did any of your colleagues seem to show any sense that what was going on here was deeply sinister?
	Uh when I so when I was working on this stuff so look yeah so like I mean so the reason I know quite a lot about this by the way Jeremy touched on is that I actually had a couple of meetings with the guy that runs um Genomics England back in 2021 right so I I I have quite privileged access to
	No commercially sensitive information that's not in the public domain, but I've had conversations with the people running the systems and I've been involved in organizations that have been advising them around specifically ethical issues relating to the use of artificial intelligence across these data platforms, right?
	And the people that are really smart in this space, really smart, they basically think that AI is actually evil.
	That's a direct quote.
	The person I view as the top thinker in this space, the AI is actually evil.
	And what the empaths, the good guys, the white hats in this are trying to do
	is to put rules and guidelines and structures in place around the creation of the technology to make sure that it's made in a sensible way and that you know everything's going to be done by the book and it's going to be ethical and we're going to it's going to you are going to do it in the right way aren't you yeah don't worry and then but it's and then then the predators come in and they're like yeah yeah yeah oh yeah yeah would you yeah don't oh don't you worry
	Come over here, you tell us the way that we need to do it, and then you go tell everyone that you've done that with us, and then we'll just carry on doing what we were going to do anyway.
	Right?
	And that's really what it is.
	And I think that a lot of the issues, and you see this everywhere, right?
	I think we've lost our capacity as a society to really comprehend evil.
	to really look at it in the face and understand what it is because I think that the people building these systems are evil and they're intending to do evil stuff with it, right?
	Like, it's, you know, they're talking about having...
	But again, this is all the things that we were being told through the pandemic were just wild, off the wall, crazy.
	How can you possibly say that?
	You know, this is insane kind of stuff.
	They're actually out in the open saying that, right?
	So there was a piece of communication that came from the World Economic Forum.
	It was a lady called Amy Webb from NYU Stern Business School, interestingly.
	So she's not a healthcare person, she's a business person, right?
	She basically says that this technology is going to allow us to not just edit genomes, but also write a new code for life.
	Right?
	And we will have right-level permissions for life, and this has already begun, and the COVID-19 vaccines use engineered code in the form of messenger RNA.
	So actually, they're basically saying, yeah, all of the stuff that people were talking about with the, you know, this might actually alter your genetic sequence, so we actually know that that was true, and that's just the starting point.
	Right?
	Because what they're saying is they want to go in and they want to engineer you at a genetic level and they're going to mine you using artificial intelligence algorithms at a genetic level, right?
	For me, when I think about DNA, I think about it as our individual resonant frequency, right?
	It's like your soul.
	It really is like that.
	It's as profound as that to me.
	Yeah, and they want to go in and they want to mine that for opportunities to come up with ways to monetize and to interfere with it using these chemicals that they're creating.
	And these are the same people that have been behind all of the death and destruction that we've seen in the vaccination program over the past three years, yeah?
	So these are the Pfizer's.
	So Pfizer, I was talking about Netanyahu earlier, that deal that he was talking about was a deal that he'd cut with Antony Baller, mano a mano, the two of them, you know, a bit like Ursula von der Leyen.
	Maybe that's why she doesn't want to share her text messages, right?
	It's like, maybe she's cut a deal for our souls as well?
	I mean, if you can put it like that.
	I think highly unlikely.
	She's a stand-up woman.
	Great.
	Right, yeah, yeah.
	I mean, apart from her husband is also big in genomics, right?
	I mean, that's where he made all his money.
	So maybe, maybe not, yeah?
	So it's Pfizer, it's Borla, and it's BioNTech, and actually a big bunch of them.
	Because again, this is a market, right?
	And this isn't, oh, this might happen at some point in the future.
	It's like, no, this is happening right now.
	It's happened.
	They've already done it.
	It already exists.
	They're just scaling it up.
	And actually there are deals being cut by companies like BioNTech, who they're investing Hundreds of billions!
	Sorry, not hundreds of billions, hundreds of millions!
	The deals I've seen, hundreds of millions.
	Let's be really clear, I'm not going to descend into hyperbole at any point.
	All of this stuff is level-headed assessment, as far as I'm concerned, of what's going on.
	Yeah, so BioNTech are spending hundreds of millions on investing in startups who are basically operating on top of this data platform, and they're doing it using money that was made from the COVID vaccines, right?
	Yes, so we've paid for this.
	We've paid for it all the way along.
	This is taxpayer money.
	And yes, you were right earlier, Jeremy Hunt is now standing up in front of Parliament going, oh, we're going to have to tighten our belts a little bit here, guys, because we spent all the money, and we spent it building a slave platform
	for you that you are now going to have to pay for basically in perpetuity yeah because you know that amount of cash and with the inflation that's running rampant right because they've printed all this money and given it to their friends in the banks and spent it on stupid things like test and trace which is run by Dido Harding who as far as I can ascertain is an idiot because I was actually sat in a room She had a big data breach when she was the CEO of TalkTalk and I remember sitting in a room with a bunch of big four partners and they were talking about, we've got to go see Dido and talk to her about what's happened.
	And the stuff that they were coming up with was like, you idiots, you morons, all of you are morons.
	I don't understand what's going on here.
	I don't know how you can walk into a room with someone like that and say the things that you're saying and be taken credibly.
	But apparently they were being taken credibly, which tells you as far as I'm concerned everything you need to know about her as an executive.
	It doesn't know what's going on.
	And she was the chairman of Genomics England, actually.
	She was the chair before she went off to do Test and Trace.
	It's mucky as hell.
	Just to sidetrack you slightly, what's your take on Aseem Malhotra?
	I think Asim is a very passionate and very intelligent and a very warm-hearted person.
	I think he's a great guy.
	I really like Asim.
	He's getting a lot of flack at the moment.
	So basically, there are a bunch of die-hard truthers out there, and I'd probably stick myself in that camp, to be honest with you.
	And they look at people like Asim, and Asim's not the only one.
	There's a bunch of clinicians coming out now, and there were people who were very vocally pro-vax at the start.
	Yeah.
	And they're coming out now and they're saying it's got to be stopped.
	And it's like, good.
	Good.
	But also, I think, and this is not just for a saying, this is for the entire medical profession as this evolves and we come out of it, right?
	And, you know, we sort of transition into whatever the hell's gonna happen next, is that I think people need to see a little bit of humility.
	I think, I would say, right?
	Because actually there were a lot of people and they weren't thinking irrationally or anything like that.
	You know, they were looking at it and going, this stinks.
	This doesn't make any sense.
	It's all being forced.
	You cannot, and this is really the crucial point, and this is why medicine is in real trouble at the moment, as far as I'm concerned, and that's the Academy itself.
	Yeah, the whole stack, top to bottom, as far as I'm concerned, is that you cannot bend the laws of reality in order to fit in with an artificial timeline that's been handed down to you by the government.
	You cannot run a long-term safety study for a novel A novel pharmaceutical in six to twelve months.
	You can't do it.
	It's not possible to do that.
	So you can't come out and tell everyone that it is.
	It isn't.
	And what's happening, right, because you see this, particularly the more mature and well-established clinicians.
	the old, let's say, let's call them more mature and well-established clinicians.
	And they'll sort of go on to these, there was an interview with Neil Oliver back in January.
	It was this guy, Neil Oliver was talking to, and he was just doing the classic clinician thing, which is what they're trained to do, It's the bedside manner.
	It's like, I know best.
	Yes.
	I've read the literature.
	I understand the situation.
	And this guy was getting... Neil Oliver was poking at him, going, look, I don't think that you really get it.
	And the guy's sitting there going, no, no, no, no, no.
	You have to understand it.
	And then he starts waving around a copy of the BMJ, and it's like, it's the print copy of the BMJ, and I was like, that's, are you still going, that's your, that's what you're getting your information from?
	Like, the ecosystem's changed.
	First of all, the editorial board, as far as I'm concerned, the BMJ and the Lancet, they've disgraced themselves.
	That entire process, and also, by the way, all of the major newspapers, particularly the Guardian, I've got a real thing for the Guardian, I think there's something nasty going on at the Guardian, right, I do not trust a thing that they have to say about anything.
	And their relationship with Bill Gates is inexcusable, right?
	And they've actually, and there was a bunch of money they've given around the vaccine, you know, promoting his vaccine agenda, which has now shifted over to trying to make everyone vegan, right?
	So I think someone told me the other day, this would need to be fact-checked, but someone told me the other day that he's given them 30 million quid.
	To promote his new agenda around food.
	So I think clinicians need to understand, particularly more senior clinicians, you need to understand that the media ecosystem has changed.
	Things are moving very quickly.
	There's a lot of emergent information that is entirely valid that needs to be looked at.
	And you cannot just dismiss it because the editorial board at the BMJ or the Lancet has told you that it's not worth looking at.
	You've got to do the work, sir.
	Or madam, or whatever.
	You've got to do it.
	This abdication of responsibility to the institutions is not acceptable.
	This giant genomic database, is there any way we can opt out?
	I mean, look, as I said, they're introducing it into the neonatal pathway.
	So the thing is, it kind of doesn't matter if you or I opt out of it too much, because eventually, well yeah, you'll be dead at some point, won't you?
	But they will try and engineer a situation where they get it.
	And actually, you know, again, one of these things we were being told through the pandemic, this was a crazy conspiracy theory, We know now that a lot of the testing companies have been selling your genetic data that they gathered from doing the testing.
	Like, we know that that's happened.
	So, they've probably gathered, you know, I don't know if Genomics England has gone and acquired that, but someone has, because someone's been selling it on the open market.
	So, okay, well, we thought that that might be an issue.
	Well, it has turned out to be an issue.
	Right, so now there's, you know, if you have one of those tests, and depending on which company was doing it, they might have flogged your genetic data to someone.
	Which is actually worse than sending any, as far as I'm concerned, worse than sending any other kind of data.
	What if they sold it to, I don't know, the Chinese military for example?
	What of our big geopolitical rivals?
	What if they just go on and just acquired the data set for the entire population?
	Everyone that's taken one of these tests?
	We don't know.
	I'm not saying that's definitely happened by the way.
	Yeah.
	But it could have done.
	We don't know and there's a whole bunch of things that could have happened that actually have in hindsight happened that we were told at the time were completely preposterous and actually no that's not the case.
	Yeah, it's quite interesting what you were saying about that this is evil.
	Because actually I'm not sure how aware you are of the scriptural implications of this.
	Because the whole point, and people like C.S.
	Lewis have written about this in fictional form in his book That Hideous Strength.
	And ultimately, what this is about, what technocracy is about, what genomics is about, what the Tower of Babel is about, which by the way has been built in Brussels, it's about supplanting God.
	It's about replacing God.
	It's like you've got this immune system.
	Which the Christians say is God-given, but we don't believe it.
	Because we know it would all evolve from Big Bang.
	But we are going to create something better than your immune system.
	We are going to... And of course, what's even more evil about this?
	I mean, as if that wasn't evil enough, trying to replace your creator with this kind of Simulated stuff.
	I mean it is that stuff even worse is that you and I know because of that charity you work for and because of all the research I've done which is that all these
	If you had to make a list of the things that people most worry about health-wise, the things that make them cherish the NHS because they think of it as their salvation from these deadly threats, there are things like cancer, number one, which is just heavily promoted across the entertainment industry and everyone's persuaded that it should be their number one fear, and then you've got
	MS, you've got Alzheimer's, you've got all these horrible chronic conditions.
	And you and I know that all these conditions are created by the food and pharmaceutical industries.
	I mean, the childhood vaccination causes a lot of these things.
	Environmental pollution causes, and bad food.
	Ultra-processed food?
	Yeah, so actually, someone I've met recently, who shall remain nameless, and who knows about this stuff, because works at the top level of the pharmaceutical industry, described the health system as a way to create, collect and kill sick people as profitably as possible.
	Right!
	Yeah?
	That's the NHS.
	Unfortunately.
	Yeah, because it's beholden to that.
	And actually, one of my colleagues in the charity had a meeting with one of the UK health secretaries recently to talk about the actual evidence that we've gathered from experimentation that has demonstrated that we can reverse type 2 diabetes through one of my colleagues in the charity had a meeting with one of the UK health secretaries We know that we can do that.
	We have actual evidence that shows that this is possible.
	That was introduced to the health secretary and the health secretary's response was, you don't understand how beholden the health system is to the food and pharmaceutical industries in this country.
	Which is essentially to say you don't understand how beholden I am to the food and pharmaceutical industry in this country.
	That's the person running the health system.
	Whoa.
	Right.
	Yeah, that's how bad it is.
	That's how bad it is.
	And so what do we do Ben?
	You're a consultant for fuck's sake!
	Solve this problem!
	There's two big things I think are really important.
	The first one is, well, I describe it as socialization of care.
	So, and there are two components to that.
	The first one is that this needs to, people need to start taking much better care of themselves.
	Yeah.
	And that means eating better, sleeping better, drinking better, like actually, you know, putting good things into their body.
	We talk about real food.
	Right.
	So basically anything that your grandmother or your great grandmother would recognize as food, that's what we should be eating.
	None of this packaged, ultra-processed stuff, even if it purports to be healthy, yeah?
	Because there's a lot of these, you know, particularly these, you know, fake meat things coming along at the moment.
	They're like, hey, this is the healthy option, and you dig into how it's made and what's in it.
	It's like, this is absolute garbage.
	This is just going to accelerate all of the problems that we've got.
	So people have got to eat better.
	Yeah, and that's about individuals doing that, but obviously it's not easy for us to, you know, it's expensive, food's expensive, it's becoming more expensive, so actually we need to look right down into the supply chain, like how is, people need to grow more food, we need more farmers, we need more smallholders as far as I'm concerned, right?
	Industrialised farming is just as bad as industrialised pharmaceuticals, right?
	And there's a lot of the same players involved in both areas, yeah.
	So we need to get back to real food.
	We need to get back to living healthier, less sedentary lives.
	We need to take personal responsibility for doing that, but then we also need to, as communities, um coordinate our efforts towards making that possible right and and and actually we we have become disconnected from each other as as individuals right that's as a big part and it's not just because you know we were forced to interact via zoom for three years or two years whatever it was that's been going on in the background for quite some time
	Yeah, so there's a drive back towards community, you know, however you want to approach that.
	I kind of touched on the church and scripture and I think that's a good place to go, actually.
	You know, we don't have a coordinated... well, we do, we've got the Church of England, but what have they been promoting for the past three years?
	Well, the same as everyone else, right?
	Yeah.
	And we can do a whole other show on that if you want to.
	I wouldn't be surprised if... Brother James!
	I wouldn't be surprised if...
	The board of Illumina included the Archbishop of Canterbury.
	Well, have you seen some of the stuff they are investing in?
	We can go down a rabbit hole here, by the way.
	What, who's that?
	The church he was investing in?
	Yeah, look at what they're investing in.
	Do we want to do this?
	Yeah, tell me, tell me, yeah.
	One of the things we're invested in is there's a company called Hypnosis, like H-I-P-G-N-O-S-I-S, Hypnosis, which is run by Elton John's former manager and basically, well, they're trading on the FTSE 100 and basically it's like a shell company.
	What they do, they'll go around and they'll buy the back catalogue of Top performers of stage and screen, right?
	So Elton John and who else did they buy recently?
	Justin Timberlake they bought and basically they buy these as assets, yeah, which they're then gonna sweat forever because they'll just keep on remastering the albums and then running them on Spotify and because they're massive they'll make money from them.
	It's like a, you know, it's an established kind of investment strategy and the Church of England's putting money into that.
	So why are you putting money into that?
	What possible public good is going to come from Church of England money being put into an investment fund that's making multi-millionaires out of celebrities?
	This is absurd.
	It's completely absurd.
	So there's probably not much hope for them, to be honest with you.
	I think we need to go through and get... We need to clean house.
	Yeah, we need to clean house, and we need to clean house across the board.
	Yeah, so all of the major institutions, yeah.
	So actually, we look at the pharmaceutical industry, just to go back into healthcare, yeah.
	So places like the Wellcome Trust, for example, the director of the Wellcome Trust, Jeremy Farrar, he has some questions to answer, as far as I'm concerned.
	Just a bit.
	Yeah, right.
	I mean, he was on SAGE, so they oversaw the whole lockdowns and everything that's happened through COVID.
	And he's now moved up to this senior position in the World Health Organisation Science Council, right?
	And apparently the first priority of the World Health Organisation Science Council is to accelerate access to genomics for the global population.
	That's what the WHO is most particularly interested in.
	Is that the same WHO that's largely funded by the Chinese Communist Party and Bill Gates?
	Uh, exactly, and the UK government as well, so the British taxpayers.
	Yeah, we're in the top three with those two, I think.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Oh, really?
	Yeah, CCP, Bill Gates, and us, and Bethel, and all that lot.
	Oh, okay!
	Imagine what the conversations are like around the dinner table!
	Yes, and they're creating this Global Investment Fund to push this technology, this genomics technology out, in the same way that Gavi does, by the way.
	Are you familiar with Gavi, which is the Global Vaccines Alliance?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Just one of these, you know, beholden to Bill Gates and all this institutional money.
	And they're actually hiring, because I received a job specification from them the other day, basically saying, hey, we're hiring for someone to come in and run our strategy and operations in working, I think it's in Switzerland somewhere.
	And, you know, I potentially fit the profile for that, right?
	What's the salary?
	I'll do it.
	Unstated, probably quite a bit, but basically it's, you know, it's certainly several hundred thousand, right?
	I mean, it's a big old job, yeah, and you're working in... Do I get a helicopter?
	I'd imagine that there are helicopters around that you could access.
	Do I get a cat to stroke?
	Because that, you know, a white cat.
	Oh, goodness me.
	I don't know.
	There might be some arcane ceremonies that you have to attend at some point.
	I don't know.
	But basically, their whole position right now, yeah, so Gavi's position, now this is in the job specification, I can send it to you to have a look at, their position now, still today, end of March 2023, is that the most important thing that happens is that the most important thing that happens in global healthcare is that we continue to push the use of COVID vaccines to the world population, and it's all positioned in these equitable access to healthcare terms, right?
	We haven't caused enough damage in the rich countries.
	We've got to come into your nations and we've got to jab all of you.
	And then, by the way, the WHO are going to come in over our shoulder and we're going to take your blood and we're going to get you onto our database and then we're going to be mining you for opportunities to do the whole thing again.
	That's what's basically going on.
	Another person, this is linked to the Wellcome Trust, is this lady Regina Dugan, who's the former director at DARPA, former Google, Facebook.
	DARPA's the Defence Advanced Research Projects Academy, I think it is.
	I can't remember the final A. Yeah, they invented the internet, apparently.
	Yeah, I mean, it's a whole bunch of things, right, but it's, I mean, this is real, it's military-industrial complex stuff, right, I mean, and, and, and actually... Come into the bit for a big fan.
	Dominic Tomlinson gets big in his trousers about DARPA.
	He thinks that we should have more of that stuff over here.
	Well, so actually I think the special ops approach to complex problem-solving is a good thing, actually.
	But the thing is, what are you deploying that approach on?
	And that's really the issue, right?
	There's no ethical guardrails around any of this stuff, like what this woman Dugan has been doing at Facebook.
	they would have been experimenting on like emotional, emotionally manipulating the global population of Facebook users, which is like a third of the global population, right?
	Yeah.
	But this woman is now running something called welcome leap, which is in part focused on progressing genomic technologies.
	And again, that's, that's run out of, um, run out of California.
	And that's directly connected to the welcome trust where Jeremy Farrow was, he would have appointed her cause he's been appointed in the past couple of years while he was the director.
	Uh, Another place that I think needs to be looked at is the Helix Center, which is linked to Imperial College, which was very received large amounts of money from Bill Gates over the past few years, right?
	Yeah, I think it's over a hundred million, I think.
	Yeah, you've seen a lot of money and that's run by a guy called Lord Darzi.
	Who actually declared war on anti-vaxxers in a piece in the Times in October last year.
	So again, this isn't the start of the pandemic, or maybe you could have just been a bit overexcited.
	It's like, no, no, no, all of that's kind of happened now.
	All of the data coming out of the system has been telling us that this is going catastrophically wrong for quite some time, and yet you're going into the Times newspaper writing an op-ed saying that anti-vaxxers are an existential threat that has to be eradicated, or something to that effect.
	It's like, whoa!
	Okay.
	And that guy, by the way, is on the Privy Council.
	So that's right up to the top level of advising the king.
	This is advising the head of state.
	Yeah, it's not my king.
	Me either.
	No.
	And actually one of the things that we could potentially do is let's cancel the bloody coronation.
	And not least because Charles stood on stage in November 2020 and co-launched the Great Reset with Klaus Schwab.
	Like how, what, how is this, how has this happened?
	And how is this being, well we know how it's being progressed and ignored because no one in the newspapers is telling people to get up in arms about it, right?
	But it's absolutely wild at this point.
	So I think that, you know, to answer your question, what can people do, I think get involved, Get researching, for a start.
	You've got to get your head into some of this stuff.
	You don't need to know all of the gory details, but you at least need to understand that something is up.
	As scary as it might sound, actually, what's kind of happened now is that they've run out of road, as far as I'm concerned.
	This is over.
	The evidence is in.
	It's already gone.
	So they're still in control of the institutions, but that steering wheel that they were turning that used to make the institution go that way and the other way, it's actually become disconnected and they're just sort of flapping around and actually the whole thing's going off pace.
	It's now a clown car.
	Exactly, yeah, and hopefully our conversation here today will help accelerate that process because frankly I've had enough of it, I really have.
	Like, what we need is transparency and we need justice.
	We need, I think, a full, forensic, independent audit of the Test and Trace Program that we talked about earlier, of Operation Moonshot.
	I would like to, you know, we've had this drip feed from the Telegraph, which is funded by Bill Gates, about, you know, Hancock being a bit of a naughty boy, but really everyone else is really fine.
	It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	I want to see everything.
	Declassified, unredacted, all communication within central government between all the different departments, all of the ministers, all of their teams, all of the supranational organisations, all of the newspapers, all of the broadcasters, the BBC's on the block, the whole bloody lot.
	We want to see it all and we want to have it available for public scrutiny.
	And I don't want to have anything mediated to me by the political system or by the newspapers.
	I've had enough of all of them.
	There's absolutely no one in there who is doing the right thing as far as I'm concerned.
	I've got a few people like Brigden.
	He's been standing up and saying a couple of things.
	Hmm doesn't smell right to me there was another guy earlier on in the pandemic he was making some noise I forget his name now but he was talking up talking about the lockdowns and lord sumption and people like that just like yeah okay but what did that do nothing it carried on going and we're here now And actually I think that we need adults in the room and I commend everything that I have said on this interview to anyone in the professions, and I mean doctors, lawyers, the works, accountants.
	If you're a sensible, serious person in a sensible, serious job, pull your finger out and get investigating this.
	The data stacks up Yeah, it absolutely stacks up.
	And unfortunately, you know, we believe, and I think people have been conned in many ways, people believe the system has been set up in a way that is democratic, that is meritocratic.
	We think that wicked people are held to account.
	We think the things are going to sort themselves out and actually they aren't sorting themselves out in this instance, right?
	This needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed by us.
	And also, to add on to that, younger generations, I'm 41, right?
	So I'm as old as a millennial can be.
	Millennials, you've got to get involved.
	Right, because I'm starting to see a lot of boomers and a lot of Gen X people who are starting to look at this stuff.
	Millennials have got to get involved.
	Gen Z have got to get involved.
	Thankfully, actually, there is a generation, because I work quite a lot in music, so I spend a lot of time with younger artists and people in their sort of 18, 19, 20, 21 years old.
	There's a whole bunch of people in that generation who can see it all very clearly.
	Thank you very much.
	Um so and so there's this kind of real sort of funny hardcore of the 25 to sort of 35 to 40 year olds who've got their head stuck in the sand and uh they just don't appear to be interested or even aware that anything's going on.
	It's like guys it's it's again it's like March 2023 it's been going on for over three years Get in the game.
	Because if you don't, then you're not going to have any say in how this plays out at all.
	And if we want a society which works for everybody, then that's going to require everyone to get involved and help us to specify it and to build it.
	So let's have a conversation about that.
	Really, really important.
	I'd also say men have got to step up because a lot of the conversation and a lot of the noise making around this has been led by women over the past few years.
	I've noticed that.
	So we need some more male voices to step into the conversation.
	There has been a war on masculinity.
	And again, we could do a whole show on that.
	But as far as I'm concerned, a lot of that noise, a lot of that demonization of men has really just served to precipitate the problem.
	Because actually, even a lot of my friends or people that I've spoken to, it's like, well, I got vaccinated because my message insisted.
	But it didn't seem right, but I did it anyway because I was manipulated into doing it by my wife or my girlfriend or whatever it is.
	It's like women need to actually understand that men have a role that is about protection.
	And maybe we have some kind of spidey sense, deep-seated, instinctual thing that when we look at stuff, it's like, oh hang on a minute, this isn't quite right.
	Maybe we should start to listen to that a little bit more.
	Yeah, I think that would probably be a good thing to do.
	And just as a society, we've got to pull together.
	Really?
	Like, we're too stratified, right?
	The gap between the top and the bottom is far too big, right?
	We've known that for quite some time, but it's getting worse, right?
	And actually, by the way, if you're middle class, and you think that you're going to be, you know, I'll keep my head down, I'll be okay, and everything will be alright, it's like, no it won't.
	They're pulling the ladder up, right?
	They don't need most of those high-value professions like being an accountant, which was a very good, solid, dependable thing.
	That's an algorithm now.
	They don't need you.
	You might have made a good living doing that, but your kids aren't.
	So what are they going to have left?
	There's not going to be anything there for them.
	Do you know what, Ben?
	Of all the very, very useful things you've said today, that might be the most important.
	Because I think that so many people think that they're going to be on the Ark.
	It's OK.
	It's not going to affect them.
	Nope.
	And this is all part of the Great Reset Agenda, by the way.
	So if you read that book, I read it again recently just to refresh myself, and there's a whole section in there which basically says, it is inevitable, I'm going to paraphrase, it's not a direct quote, but it is inevitable that there will be an increasingly small number of high-value jobs.
	And therefore there will be a whole bunch of people who are currently in the middle classes or even the upper middle classes or even the upper classes, right?
	You know, think about QC or KCs as they are now, like top barristers, people like that.
	They're not going to need you.
	You're not, you're surplus to requirement.
	Right, so, and the people building the platforms, they don't care about you.
	I mean, not least because most of them aren't there, they're certainly not in this country, they don't have an advanced technology, you know, there isn't a tech industry per se.
	I mean, we do have some real assets in places like Arm, for example, and around Science Park in Cambridge, but it's like, you know, the big tech barons, the Silicon Valley type, they don't care about you.
	They absolutely could not care less about you.
	And the idea that you're going to somehow be okay because of, you know, I don't know what people think it is that's protecting them, right?
	And the thing is, there's a whole bunch of communities in this country.
	I was talking to a friend of mine, a Jamaican guy, the other day, right?
	He's been here for quite a few years.
	He's in his late 50s, right?
	And, you know, I said to him, I'm really worried about the way things are going.
	He's like, do you know what?
	We've been telling, I don't want to sound harsh, but we've been telling you lot, we've been telling, I've been telling my white friends for decades.
	That this is how this lot were run in the system, right?
	And you haven't been able to see it.
	Yeah, you've kind of known, because obviously, I've heard you use the word Babylon, James, right?
	Yeah, Babylon.
	Yeah, right.
	That's what it is.
	Yeah, it's a hierarchical system.
	It's managed from the top.
	And if you've been a lawyer or an accountant or a professional person, actually, you've been in an administrative class in Babylon, right?
	That's kind of what you are in this country.
	Yeah, you don't see it like that, but actually that's what it is.
	You're helping run the institutions on behalf of the establishment.
	Establishment is Babylonian.
	It's a Babylonian system, right?
	And there's only a few people that get into that structure, and then below that it's working class and the destitute.
	You know, we pay our taxes and we'll take care of them and that's all fine.
	In reality, that doesn't work because the government's not been fixing any of that stuff and you're about to, if not you, your progeny, yeah, your kids, they're about to drop out the bottom of that thing into the global poor, basically.
	And that's what they've constructed and that's where this whole thing is headed to.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, luckily we've got Jar, who's going to save us.
	Rastafari.
	Yeah, exactly.
	We do.
	Absolutely.
	Which by the way is one of the reasons why I think that the Jamaican sound systems are so popular, particularly with the white people.
	People like me, for example.
	It's about the sound, but it's also about the word.
	And ultimately, the word is the word of God.
	And it's what we haven't been getting from the church, because the church is fundamentally corrupt.
	And actually, it's quite happy to ignore the word of God.
	Actually, that's what it's been doing.
	By the way, just before we go, do you think Lee Scratch Perry was a goody or a baddie in terms of his understanding of the world.
	When he talked about, I'm going to put on the iron shirt and send him back to Earth, do you think he was on Devil's side or do you think he was not?
	I'm going to say, I don't know enough about Lee Perry, to be honest with you, But I mean, I have seen him in concert and I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt because I think that he was a mystic and I believe that he was a very spiritual and powerful man.
	And I'm going to say that he was on the side of good in all of this.
	That's what I would say.
	Can I just give a couple of little shout outs to a couple of things?
	You totally can.
	You've been great Ben.
	You've earned it.
	You've earned your shout out.
	All right, cool.
	So there's two things that I would like to flag people's attention to.
	So I've got one project that I'm launching, which is already launched actually, it's out there, it's called Rise, and that's about unification of the British people.
	We have got to come together, people, all of us, and look straight into the camera now, and start having a collective discussion about what's going on, how we got here, where we want to go to next.
	If you want to live in a society that works for everybody, that is imperative.
	It's non-negotiable, right?
	And we want you involved in that conversation, yeah?
	We're stagnating otherwise.
	And there are people talking about civilizational collapse right now, yeah?
	And I don't want Western civilization to collapse, because I think there's a lot of good here.
	And I know that it's had a real bad rap, and our leaders are doing some unexcusable things, and they have been doing for quite some time, but the people are good people, yeah?
	And we need to come together.
	I agree.
	We need to build Something that works for everybody and you need to participate in that discussion and you can find that on Substack so it's RISEUK.SUBSTACK.COM R I S E RISEUK.SUBSTACK.COM that's the first thing so come and join us there and then I'm doing another project which is called Pattern and that's about unlocking what I call real growth
	So when we talk about growth at the minute, normally it's all GDP and revenue and profit and all that kind of stuff, right?
	But that's too crude and actually that singular focus on making money is driving a lot of the issues that we face, yeah?
	You know, love of money is the root of all evil as they say, yeah?
	And actually real growth, the kind of growth that has actually driven the civilization that we all live in forward in centuries past.
	Because this desperate focus on profit is quite a new thing.
	Real growth is much more balanced than just being about money.
	It's about economic, technological and spiritual progress.
	It's getting those three things to work together.
	That's the way that we get back to real civilizational growth.
	So we want to be able to make money, yes, but we also want to advance the state of the art, the state of the science and technology and make sure that's deployed properly in a way that works for everybody.
	But crucially, and this is the bit that gets ignored constantly now, is we've got to do that in a way that is spiritually sound, right?
	And it nurtures our people as a collective so that we can build together towards greater things, right?
	And if we don't get those three things balanced, properly, then we are going to run into trouble, right?
	And this is an immediate thing.
	And you can come and find out about Pattern also on Substack.
	I love Substack.
	It's the future of media, actually.
	It's amazing.
	I like Substack.
	Yeah.
	You've got a good sub stack.
	I find it's the best platform.
	As a writer, I find it the most satisfying.
	I can edit my copy most easily.
	I can put in hyperlinks in a way that I can't with some of the other ones, like locals.
	It's a more satisfying reader experience.
	Yeah, and it's basically, it's completely taken away all barriers to entry in media.
	This is why the newspaper, the newspaper, they're not selling newspapers anymore, right, but like the newspaper brands, why they're so screwed.
	And it's why you shouldn't, you don't need to trust them.
	It's like, well, you know, I read this newspaper because it's got, you know, it's got the masthead and it's got a tutorial board and all that kind of stuff.
	It's like, yeah, but you could have someone writing out of their back room Who's a much better writer.
	You can give all the money directly to them and they don't have to pay all the overheads of the office and it's a much better, more open media ecosystem.
	Anyway, enough about Substack.
	The Substack for Pattern is pattern18.substack.com and I'm going to be sharing a load of the tools and a load of the things that I've seen through my career in complex system change and digitization and basically just open up the toolkit of the things that we did And have been doing around how to drive economic, technological, spiritual progress inside large companies for top, top corporations.
	Basically just open the whole thing up so people can see it and they can apply it in their own businesses and we can decentralize the economic system.
	That's a big part of what needs to happen next.
	Yeah, we need to decentralize.
	We need to get away from these globalized digital platforms.
	We need to put power back in the hands of people.
	Let's bring things back in.
	Let's repatriate a bunch of our supply lines.
	Let's grow things for ourselves.
	Let's not import food from Africa the whole time.
	Let's not buy clothing from Nike who builds things and creates things in sweatshops.
	Let's stop buying Apple products because we know that they use forced labour in concentration camps in China.
	It is unconscionable that our system runs like this.
	Within all of our grasp to change it, but we've got to get actively involved in building the new system in order to make that possible.
	And that's really, you know, you asked earlier what needs to happen next.
	I think that's really it for me.
	We've got to unify.
	We've got to share ideas.
	We've got to be open-minded.
	We've got to be really practical.
	We've got to start directing.
	There's a huge amount of wealth and knowledge that exists in our society that needs to be spread out.
	And if you're at the top and you've got a lot of money and you've got a lot of wealth to invest, then let's start directing that towards grassroots things that are going to be beneficial to the whole of the system.
	Stop chasing around trying to make an outsized return, 10xing your money on this, dumping it all on crypto.
	Let's just build some infrastructure that's going to last for society.
	Let's do that.
	That was great, Ben.
	I think it's a good question.
	I see my light started to flash in an annoying way, which means the batteries can't cope.
	It's been really great having you on the podcast.
	I didn't do the preamble for our sponsor, Hunter & Gather, just because I wanted to get on with the podcast today.
	But look, if you want to use their... I think Hunter & Gather are great.
	They're one of the companies that I like because they don't sell food full of seed oils and stuff.
	They make mayonnaise that doesn't kill you.
	But anyway, if you want to use that, you can get them at hunterandgatherfoods.com and use the code TDP10 to get a 10% discount.
	Meanwhile, don't forget, I depend...
	I'm afraid Hunter and Gather don't pay me so much that I can pay my bills.
	They might cover some of my production costs.
	But anyway, if you want to support me, please do.
	I really value it.
	Patreon, Subscribestar, Locals, Substack, you can buy me a coffee.
	It really makes a difference.
	Patreon, thanks very much.
	And Ben!
	Thank you again for being such a great, sort of unexpectedly good, because it was a bit of a punt taking, but you were great.
	I'm really glad.
	I really enjoyed it.
	And I hope I meet you sometime.
	Yeah, let's do it, James.
	I'm going to put it out on my Twitter profile.
	James Danibal called me a bit of a punt.
	Oh, and also, we'll have to talk about music sometime.
	I know you wanted to talk about music.
	Yeah, we could do a whole other thing on Culture Walk, because I've been in the trenches on that.
	Let's just put it like that.
	Great.
	OK, Ben, it's great.
	Thank you.
	I'm going to have a cup of tea now.
	Thank you, James.

▲