Get Off My Lawn - Gavin McInnes - Ep 127 | Michelle Malkin Special

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May 8, 2018 - Get Off My Lawn - Gavin McInnes

54:57

Ep 127 | Michelle Malkin Special | Get Off My Lawn

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	Michelle, thank you for coming on the show.
	Thanks for having me, Gavin.
	Let's get started.
	We've got a lot to talk about.
	We do.
	You know what I was just thinking about you recently?
	You're Batman.
	You come across as, not really Batman, but Bruce Wayne.
	You act like when you were a kid, a thief killed your parents, and you have been obsessed with justice ever since.
	You're consumed with justice in a very unique way.
	I am.
	And I think of late, over the last several years that I've had an opportunity to use my platform to delve into the stories of people who have been wronged by the government, by the media, that I've been forging common ground with people I never thought I'd work with.
	So, I don't know, you could do the pop psychology thing on me.
	Well, why aren't?
	What happened to you?
	Yeah, what did that thief do?
	So it wasn't a thief.
	I think I've occupied a unique position in my professional life, and that a lot of it can be explained by my upbringing, by my experiences.
	And I think a lot of people who despise and hate and mock what I do would be perhaps enlightened to know about where I came from and what drives me.
	Right.
	So, of course, everybody knows because my life is an open book, that my parents came here from the Philippines in 1960.
	Oh, we can tell by looking at you.
	Yes, here.
	Here.
	And when I stand up, and you see.
	And I do, of course, often mention that they came here legally because that is very important to the fabric of my being and the principles which I have espoused in my work for the last 25 years, whether it was my newspaper columns or my books that I've written or the brief fleeting appearances that I make where I try to make some kind of impact rather than just warm a seat and regurgitate talking points on cable TV.
	And having grown up in rural South Jersey, in a small town, Ebseekin, New Jersey, in the shadow of a lot of the casinos, many of them built by Donald Trump.
	Wow.
	And that juxtaposition is interesting because you've got the gritty urban environment of and supposed redevelopment of Atlantic City.
	And in the shadow of it, and I said rural, and I mean rural, there were Confederate flags hung around Absekin because people really did feel that they were more part of the South.
	Yeah, you see that in upstate New York, too.
	Isn't that interesting?
	It puts the South in South Jersey.
	And we were one of the first non-white families in the neighborhood.
	I experienced the most violent type of explicit racism of people shouting at us at the supermarket to go home.
	Did they get the racial epithet right?
	It's flip, right?
	It is flip, but no.
	It was gook and chink.
	No.
	I know.
	Just get your insults right.
	I'm a flip, goddammit.
	That's right.
	Get your racism right.
	And internalizing that very early on and detesting identity politics before I even knew the phrase.
	That's an interesting reaction because a lot of people would go the other way and be a victim.
	And so this I attribute to my tiger mom, who I would say is worse than a tiger mom, better than a tiger mom, a mountain lion mom, who immediately ingrained in both of her children the hostility towards a victimhood mentality.
	Get over it.
	Cry a few tears, but pity them, not yourself.
	Well, my parents are immigrants, and I'm an immigrant here in America, and I think that it gives you a new perspective.
	And we're seeing a lot of immigrates, I call them.
	Yes, I love that.
	I have to borrow that and pay you a royalty.
	But back in the 70s, there was a lot of Indians coming over to Canada, too, and it was just nothing but gratitude.
	Everyone was thankful.
	We pledged allegiance to the Queen when we got her citizenship.
	Remember, Henry Ford, he had a machine where you would go in as an immigrant in this big, it was literally a giant melting pot.
	He built a giant pot, and you would go in it, and you come out carrying a flag.
	Wow.
	And I feel like that, this immigrate thing is relatively recent.
	Yes.
	Because you talk to Cubans who came here after Shea and Fidel, and they love this country.
	Yes.
	What happened?
	When did they?
	Well, you know, I think maybe that that exists, but it's the silent majority.
	And it's really the elevation of this creature, this tool of the progressive left, of the immigrate dreamer, who certainly doesn't represent the masses of people who recede into the background on purpose by the media, that will not reflect their voices.
	So that was a huge part of rejecting identity politics, but then also understanding the need to speak out.
	And then, of course, I had my entire Oberlin college experience.
	I was shy when I was in grade school.
	I failed my seventh grade speech class.
	I was terrified of people's eyes looking at me.
	I have a lot of family pictures where I can't look at the camera.
	I was always looking down.
	I was that.
	Stoic Asian girl.
	Yes, yes.
	But I felt in a way that I had to make a choice in college because I had a lot of condescending, especially liberal white women and of course the militant students of color.
	Well at Oberlin you also had the staff oppressing the left.
	Yes, that's right.
	And I've told the story many times to young college audiences of how I was ignited by Dinesh D'Souza, who we had invited to come to campus.
	My husband and I ran a student monthly publication, conservative publication.
	He had just written Illiberal Education, and he came to speak at this beautiful chapel at the Oberlin College campus, Finney Chapel.
	And it was administrators and faculty who stood up, turned their backs, and chanted, Dinesh Dinesh, Dinesh DeSouza.
	Do not let the white man use you.
	So that's always been a theme of my work.
	But in terms of justice, what I've been doing lately is highlighting the cases of individuals who were wrongly accused and wrongly convicted of the worst kind of heinous crimes.
	And my problem with so much of the progressive left in the media is that some individuals who have been wrongfully convicted are more equal than others.
	Not because people actually care consistently about justice, but because these are tools for some people in the media and they serve a purpose, a political and ideological purpose.
	There's a lot of social status in freeing, say, the Central Park five.
	Right.
	Who I think were guilty.
	I haven't looked at the specifics of the case, but what my new reaction is to any of these cases that come forward is I need to know all the facts before I decide.
	And I don't think that there's enough intellectual humility, certainly on cable TV, where you have to have insta opinion.
	And having taken the time to look into individual cases and understand how much effort is needed to get to the bottom of the truth, I've rethought a lot of things.
	You know, one of the most important epiphanies that I've had over the last two years is rethinking my position on the death penalty and feeling shame about having spoken up about cases that I knew very little about.
	Well, there's a real dehumanization of prisoners.
	And I think with freeing wrongfully convicted, there's a hierarchy there where it's cool to have black guys and stuff.
	But a cop convicted of rape, that doesn't have the same kind of excitement for some reason.
	It's radioactive.
	Yeah.
	It's radioactive.
	He must have done it.
	Yes.
	And that was my reaction when Daniel Holtclaw, the former Oklahoma City police officer who we spotlighted in the debut for Michelle Malkin Investigates two years ago in December 2016, that's the reaction I had when I saw him as the verdict was announced and he broke out into tears.
	And I just knee-jerk, felt the same way that everybody did who was flooding Twitter with their glee about the case.
	And it was celebrities who knew nothing, nothing, not a single fact.
	If you asked them, tell me one fact about the case, would just sit there silently.
	Crickets would be chirping.
	It's like the stalks, you know, in the 700s where we just throw fruit at them, rotten fruit, as they sit there with their hands like that.
	There's this real, what are they called, bystander effect, where you lose sympathy when you're in a mob?
	Yes.
	And you know, just to go back a little bit, and I know we're zigzagging back and forth here.
	I should have had you had Drama mean before we started.
	But I've had a very interesting journalism career.
	And there will be a lot of people on the left that will snicker at my calling myself a journalist when none of them, you look at the leading lights on cable TV on the left.
	Look at Rachel Maddow.
	She's a smart woman.
	I understand that.
	But Air America was where she was.
	Yeah, what's her canon?
	Anderson Cooper.
	Right.
	And whereas I can have, have, have worked for two major metropolitan newspapers, have sustained a syndicated newspaper column for 24 years, started up my own companies, you the same, who will never be considered journalists.
	And yes, you have to put all 20 O's and O's in it.
	But along my journey, especially the experiences that I had doing the shoe leather work on investigative stories in local communities, this is my epiphany.
	This is what has led me to this moment of this weekend debuting and screening this episode, Railroaded, Surviving Wrongful Convictions, in front of the Manhattan Film Festival, looking at these stories and questioning, always questioning, isn't it the left who always says, question authority, right?
	They put it on a bumper sticker and they're so proud of themselves.
	And yet, at the newspapers that I worked for, so many of the reporters and editors were in bed proudly with the authority that they were supposed to be questioning.
	And it had nothing to do with whether they had a D or an R by their name.
	And it wasn't just on these justice issues, it was on corporate welfare issues.
	Wait a minute, you're always slamming Republicans for doing the bidding of the suits.
	And yet you're the ones that are collaborating because it's in your interest for advertising dollars from all of the department stores and certainly with the sports palaces, that they used hardworking people's taxpayers' dollars to subsidize those massive stadiums.
	And every year the sports teams would come and demand new stadiums every 10 years.
	Now they wanted a retractable roof.
	And there was your editorial page crusading for stealing people's money and redistributing it to the crony fat cats that you say only Republicans serve.
	So many of them, I think they saw, this is a crazy theory, but I think they saw the Dustin Hoffman Robert Redford movie about Watergate.
	Yes.
	And that became cool.
	So now being a journalist is a fashion to them, and they want to blog at Huff Poe and Slate and Salon and Village Voice.
	They don't care about the truth and they don't do the work, they just follow the trends.
	And you realize if you're to do the nitty-gritty of journalism, it is co cold calling.
	It is like there in Bill McGowan's book, Coloring the News, he talks about third trimester abortions and how there was only it happens very, very rarely.
	And some woman just sat on the phone calling all the clinics in America, thousands, not thousands, hundreds of clinics, and she got a crazy number of like it happens once a month.
	And then she realized there's thousands and thousands of third trimester abortions going on.
	And they went back to the doctor that said it's rare, and he said, I just thought it was for the greater good that I say that.
	And we're seeing less and less of that these days.
	And it's this culture that we have now of witch hunts.
	Yes, it is.
	So when I was working at the Seattle Times in the mid to late 1990s, there was a rash of these witch hunt prosecutions.
	There was hysteria over alleged abuse of children at daycare centers.
	Do you remember the McMartin daycare center case?
	That was in California, and it has set off this wave of hysteria.
	And so a lot of these daycare workers came from white working class backgrounds or had limited mental capacity.
	And they were manipulated and exploited by rogue police detectives who worked in cahoots with prosecutors who wanted to make a name for themselves.
	So in the mid-1990s, one of these supposed sex rings was identified in Wenatchee, Washington, so in the state of Washington in eastern Washington.
	And this thing ran out of control.
	The conflicts of interest would have been clear to anyone whose eyes were opened because the lead detective who was accusing what he called a cult of Christians, there was a daycare center that was led by a pastor, Pastor Roby Roberson,
	what happened was the detective took his own stepdaughter, and it was modern-day Salem, Massachusetts, and he took her on a ride around town, and she would just point to which houses were responsible for alleged abuse.
	And the entire phenomenon of implanted memories came out.
	There was a fantastic psychologist who spoke up against what was happening.
	Her name was Elizabeth Loftus.
	She wrote a book about this and exposed it.
	But not until after many innocent people had been thrown behind bars, their lives and reputations destroyed.
	What could be, there are few things that could be worse than being accused of being part of a sex ring molesting child, children in a disease.
	Did they get killed in prison?
	Yes, yes.
	And so it wasn't until citizen journalists, and this was really sort of, and this is the pre-blog, pre-social media era.
	How do you get, it's like the underground in Russia with a samistat.
	There were citizen journalists who were printing up the truth and uncovering evidence and then Xeroxing it and passing it out.
	The Seattle Times wouldn't cover it.
	The local paper in Wenatchee wouldn't cover it.
	It was talk radio, the early days of local talk radio, that was able to spread the word about these things.
	And again, to exonerate someone on average takes 11 to 12 years.
	But in this case, one of the wrongly convicted people died in prison before he was able to clear his name.
	So you've become a major player in a scene I didn't know existed, but it's the right-wing exoneration scene.
	I suppose you've just dubbed this, I guess it's a new phenomenon.
	But I am trying to make inroads with people who otherwise wouldn't touch me with a 10-foot pole.
	I don't care if they insult me to my face.
	My commitment is to continue covering Daniel Holzklaw's story until he is free.
	So we'll not rescue him.
	So what happened?
	What's the truth?
	Because I saw there was crazy conflicting stories about descriptions.
	They were saying he was small and he's like six foot two or something.
	Yes, people can watch the two-part series.
	We made it available for free on CRTV.
	And it's also on the CR-TV and Michelle Malkin YouTube channels.
	So you can get a taste of not just the conflicting stories, but the manner in which two police detectives massaged the stories of accusers who came forward.
	It's almost unfathomable to get your arms around how 13 women, prompted initially by one woman who made her story public, shopped it around after she had been stopped by Daniel in June 2014, late at the end of his shift.
	There was no body cam or dash cam.
	And Daniel always says, if there had been, this nightmare would have never have happened.
	He would have lived his happy life without having had to swallow the red pill and be behind bars for 263 years.
	This initial accuser acted very strangely during a 10-minute traffic stop.
	There is surveillance video of it.
	We highlight it in the Daniel and the Den series, but it's not close enough to be able to make out silhouettes.
	But you can see, you can track where he had put his flashlight up as a matter of routine in northeast Oklahoma City where he patrolled.
	This is one of the most drug-infested crimes.
	It's the south central LA of Oklahoma City.
	There's a lot of drug dealing going on, cartels, gang activity.
	And it is an unfortunate fact of life that you will have to be searched if there's any kind of suspicion that you are carrying drugs.
	So there's a maneuver called the classmen shake to make sure that you don't have any drugs in your bra.
	When I go visit Daniel at prison, I have to do the classmen shake.
	It's rather unobjectionable to me.
	I get it.
	You've got to do your job.
	And in fact, we were at the prison when there was a woman and a child who had just finished up a visit, and it turned out that she had tried to smuggle drugs into the prison.
	And so, anyway, you can see where he shines the light to make sure that nothing falls onto the ground, but you can't see that any kind of illicit activity happened.
	And this woman claimed that Daniel demanded that she give him a 10-second blowjob.
	He's, oh my God.
	Now, let me tell you about the physical impossibility.
	I'm not going to say improbability that this could have happened.
	Daniel wears compression underwear.
	It doesn't have a hole.
	She claimed that he just whipped it out and it just appeared there.
	Wow.
	If you know any police officer, you know all of the accoutrements and all of the heavy equipment that they wear every single day.
	It takes them a couple minutes to do that.
	So he's huge, right?
	He's 6'1 ⁇ , more than 250 pounds.
	It's massive.
	And in fact, because of the interrogation video that he sat through, of his interrogation that he sat through with the detectives, they show him having to take his shirt off.
	He has massive arms, okay?
	They're massive.
	He cannot take the shirt off.
	You know how we just sort of whip our shirts off because his arms were massive.
	He was a football player, star, almost made it through the NFL draft.
	That was his dream.
	But at the end of your shirt, there are these elastics with buttonholes in them.
	And they extend all the way down to a button that's attached to your sock to keep your shirt tucked in.
	Stretched taut.
	Then you've got your bulletproof vest underneath it, as well as a double belt.
	Not just a single, but it doubles over, covering your entire area here.
	And the fly of the pants is over that.
	And remember, he's wearing compression underwear.
	So this was a, I think the stop was a total of about 15 minutes.
	But his actual time that he would have been able to spend with this woman, he would not have been able to get all of that stuff off.
	I don't need to trivialize it with humor, but even if they were two people madly in love, and she had suggested that, he'd say, leave me tonight at the hotel.
	I love you too, honey, but we don't have time.
	Yes, I mean, all of it is so absurd, but this first stop, of course, is what set the table for everything that came after.
	Because a lead detective, a woman who clearly had an agenda, Kim Davis, and we show the extended interview that I had with him.
	By the way, the last interview that they have ever granted to a member of the media because it was a disaster for them.
	Really?
	Because I simply asked innocent questions.
	And at that point, I had done as much homework as I could to prepare, but I did not know everything.
	But I was not supposed to ask questions.
	Questions like, well, why didn't you interview the accuser?
	Why didn't you record the interview of the accuser at the hospital?
	It's supposed to be standard practice.
	And in fact, they recorded selectively the interviews with other accusers after they had properly massaged the stories to match up with the so-called evidence that they had about where Daniel was and when.
	A lot of these accusers came forward, manufactured stories, came up with specific locations where Daniel had never been.
	Records never showed that he was.
	So what happened was these stories would morph over time until finally they matched the prefabricated evidence against him.
	And so the initial accuser was not recorded by either audio or video.
	And we have around tape and we show this.
	And when I have done screenings across the country, people audibly gasp when Kim Davis, the detective, says, well, I only use a recorder when we are dealing with cases involving a police officer.
	And I sort of just subtly blink.
	I said, well, this one does involve a police officer.
	Well, we don't do that.
	And I didn't have one anyway.
	Well, why are there recordings of all of these other accusers?
	And there's no explanation.
	Wow.
	And it just devolves from there.
	There was a perfect storm that led to Daniel's conviction.
	And remembering that we had under the last years of the Obama administration this violent anti-cop movement, not just stoked by Black Lives Matters, but a lot of their sort of satellite groups across the country.
	Sure.
	And that literally, that was the summer of Ferguson where cities were burning.
	You know, the riots in Baltimore.
	And Oklahoma City did not want to become the next Ferguson.
	And so Daniel Holtzklaw became the sacrificial lamb railroaded by members of his own department, the Brotherhood.
	It's terrifying.
	Remember with Larry King, we had the same thing where the cop got off and then everyone got too mad.
	Rodney King, yeah.
	So they just put him back in.
	Yeah, Rodney King.
	Yes.
	They said, okay, okay, I'm sorry.
	I'll just throw him back in prison.
	Yes.
	The evidence somehow magically changes.
	Yes.
	Well, the thing that scares me about all this is you start wondering, well, how many bad guys are in prison?
	How many of them did it?
	What percentage...
	Yes.
	And they say a lot of different things.
	They say 5% of the people in prison are incompatible with society and have to be there.
	5.
	Another thing I heard was 95%, this is just guys guessing, right, out of the people they knew.
	He said 95 to 100 is drugs.
	All drugs.
	Even domestic abuse was drugs.
	Or robbing a drug Dealer or turf fights over drugs, drugs, drugs.
	He said, I looked around me in prison.
	There's a guy talking that was an excon and he had robbed a drug dealer.
	And he goes, everyone I looked at was there for some sort of drug-related thing.
	And it scared me because you think, is this entire prison industry just built on the drug war or, you know, someone being thrown in jail because it's culturally convenient?
	Yes, I'm glad you brought that up.
	When I was at the Seattle Times, I was the biggest Bill Bennett war on drugs style warrior.
	And my views on many things related to the war on drugs have evolved over the years.
	And I've talked about this and written about this publicly, but I was in a debate on one of the first medical pot initiatives.
	And Washington State really was where they tested this.
	And yes, there were a lot of left-wing progressive Soros types that were behind the funding for it.
	But I met a man named Ralph Seeley, who was studying for his law degree at the University of Washington, but who was also dying.
	He had a rare lung carcinoma.
	And he had enlisted a professor and doctor at the University of Washington who was trying to help him to be able to have medical marijuana.
	The pill wasn't working.
	I mean, they did have marinol, and here's the government saying, well, that's enough for you.
	That's fine.
	When it didn't work for him.
	And he just talked about the waste of billions of dollars on the futile war on drugs and how people who considered them constitutional conservatives should see this in the same light that they saw the Second Amendment as a right that should be protected and exercised to choose the form of treatment that works best for you.
	Anyway, on a related matter, I became very interested in civil asset forfeiture and the abuse of drug abatement laws to shut down law-abiding businesses in the eastern part of Seattle, which was being gentrified by big money developers in cahoots with the district attorney and the police department.
	And I did an investigative series for my op-ed column.
	This was not on the news pages of the Seattle Times, but yes, even op-ed columnists can commit journalism.
	And I crusaded on the behalf of a soul food restaurant, a couple that owned a soul food restaurant called Oscars.
	And what happened was the police department was sending in paid undercover informants who would just go secretly smoke crack in the bathroom and then would come out and tell the police department, oh, hey, I just smoked crack in the bathroom.
	And then they would punish and ticket Oscar McCoy and his wife Barbara for not stopping illicit drug use in the bathroom.
	They used this because the McCoy's would not sell their restaurant to them at the low bid price that the developers wanted from them.
	So they were trying to criminalize their conduct as business owners in the district.
	And they weren't the only ones that this was happening to.
	So I wrote about their case, and they had a young crusading ACLU lawyer in Seattle, David Oddsgood, and he challenged the constitutionality of the law and went all the way to the state Supreme Court and they repealed the law as unconstitutional, as an unconstitutional taking.
	And so now fast forward, just to make it relevant.
	I am a big cheerleader of Jeff Sessions' enforcement of immigration laws.
	But on all things related to whether it's medical marijuana or the empowerment of these overzealous prosecutors to collect civil asset forfeiture, I think it's horrific.
	You know, we talk about, everyone talks about the deep state, right?
	But this is the police state.
	Well, I'm glad that we brought it all together here because what I appreciate so much about your work is people using prisons as weapons.
	And we initially made them from the Magna Carta to get murderers, rapists, and pedophiles off the street and ideally rehabilitated, but at least protect the citizens.
	And now we're seeing it as a tool that people use.
	You can lie about rape, get revenge on a cop, you can just sweep up.
	Everyone's doing drugs.
	Let's get those people out of here.
	Remember Nikula, Basley Nikula, or whatever his name was, the guy who did the Muhammad video?
	Yes, right.
	So Hillary Clinton says, we're throwing him in jail to one of the Marines' fathers, right?
	And he didn't like that because he said, what's his crime?
	And she didn't say this, but what she was basically saying was, woof, think of something.
	And they did.
	They found that he had violated his parole by using a fake name in the credits.
	Yes.
	But we saw what happened to Van Gogh's grandson when he put his real name in the credits.
	You get a rapier through your chest.
	Theo Van Gogh.
	Right.
	So he dared to not put his name there so he wouldn't get stabbed.
	And we throw him in jail for that.
	And what really disturbed me about that case was Fox News guys, like Republicans, conservatives, they shrugged.
	And they went, well, he shouldn't have violated his parole.
	And I'd always say to them, what was the violation?
	And they never knew.
	So we have this culture of vilification and witch hunts.
	And then we have this total apathy, you know, when it happens to these people.
	There's really no sense of justice.
	And the reason it scares me is because the mob, the culture is even worse than the law sometimes.
	Look at the way they're so happy they get someone fired without looking up the facts.
	Or there's a rumor.
	Someone puts a picture on Instagram and there's a rumor that it was this comedian that was dating her at the time and she has a bruise.
	So his career is completely ruined.
	I mean, free speech law makes it to the Supreme Court.
	They usually err on the side of the First Amendment.
	But not the people.
	The people want blood.
	Yes.
	So it's that witch hunt culture, the social justice mob culture, and then the lemming-like quality that we breed in the public schools.
	And this inability to truly inculcate independent thinking.
	And so it's an interesting time to be talking to you as we have this sort of cultural outbreak.
	And, you know, we talked about how whether this is a fleeting thing, it's a bad.
	I think it's a something.
	I really do that you've got, you know, Kanye West out there and Chinch the rapper and Diamond and Silicon on Capitol Hill.
	It feels different to me.
	And I think maybe it's the catalyst of having immediate social media response to it so we can see how crazy the left is responding to it, which is edifying.
	But I worry in the long run.
	Like I look at the cases that I've highlighted of people who wouldn't have gotten the time of day if not for CRTV and the ability to work outside of these traditional media.
	And there's so much laziness and complacency and fear and fecklessness.
	I'm disgusted by it.
	I mean, I wake up every day and it's not just Daniel's case that I worry about.
	In the last several media appearances that I have done, I've gotten three dozen emails now from people begging me to look into their cases.
	And I don't have the time and it's almost a guilt of knowing that I see and I can't help everybody.
	And I want to go get a law degree so I can work a law firm so I can do more.
	And I've done everything in my power, blessed as I have been after 25 years, to be able to pull strings or make connections or steer people in the right direction or even just to mention, even if I can just do a tweet or a retweet about somebody else's case, even if I can't plunge into it for the next six months.
	And there's this, you know, when we did the Enid screening in Enid, Oklahoma, of this railroad roaded episode that we're screening at the Manhattan Film Festival, I likened it to going to an eye doctor.
	You know that machine that they put in front of you, it's called a faux ropter, right?
	And they, and I always dreaded this test because I was like, am I doing the right answer?
	Because they say, is this better or worse?
	And it looks blurry and you're like looking and you're trying to see something.
	It feels subjective.
	Is it better or worse or is it the same?
	And sometimes I feel like I'm guessing.
	But then there's a moment where both eyes align and you can see clearly.
	And I always remember that phrase, is it better or worse?
	Because I feel that way when you do finally come to an epiphany and learn the truth about a particular case that you thought you had the right answer to or that you thought you knew the truth.
	And then you realize you see clearly.
	And is it better or is it worse?
	Because a lot of times it's worse to know the truth.
	Yeah.
	You know, you're making me think that this lack of red pilling might just be a natural reaction to the horror of the truth.
	I mean, we're obese physically.
	Right.
	So we're mentally obese too.
	We go, I don't want to work out.
	Like, I honestly believe we don't see what's going on in South Africa on TV because it's too horrific and people are eating dinner and they just cannot handle the carnage.
	Maybe our brains just shut down and we go, you know what, that Nikula Basley guy, he's probably just bad.
	Get him in jail.
	Because the thought of all these men in cages is just, our brains malfunction.
	I've often thought that about 9-11 truthers.
	They just, it has to be us.
	We did it.
	The government did it.
	It can't, terror can't be that real.
	My brain can't handle it.
	And that's why we dehumanize prisoners, because the thought of millions of men in cages, like a giant farm, like a mass slaughterhouse, just destroys us.
	Yes.
	You know, the University of Michigan Law School has been keeping track of exoneration since, I think, 1982 or 83.
	And so their official statistic is that 2,000 people have been exonerated of crimes that they did not commit.
	And I know that that is a vast undercount.
	Yes.
	Because you know who it doesn't include?
	All of the people who were executed who were innocent.
	And so, and I have been focusing particularly on Oklahoma because I believe that there is something uniquely wrong with Oklahoma.
	Remember that Thomas Frank book from several years ago?
	It was called What's the Matter with Kansas?
	I think, and I'm not saying this, please publishers do not call me, but What's the Matter with Oklahoma?
	Okay, they're going to be reinstituting, there was a moratorium on the death penalty because one of these gruesome death penalty botched events happened where they got the combination of the injection drugs wrong.
	Oh, I remember that.
	And the man suffered for hours before they finally got it right.
	Well, they're resuming the executions in 2019.
	And this is at a time when I know that every institution in that state has been corrupted by this zeal to just put people behind bars, put notches on a belt.
	And it is unclear to me how many people have been executed who were innocent, in large part because of collusion between rogue forensic chemists and DAs who are trying to get re-elected.
	It's haunting, isn't it?
	I talked to a corrections officer once, and he said, sometimes I think a third of these people here are for domestics.
	And that's drug-related too, right?
	Because you're in a tumultuous relationship because you're high and drunk, and you end up in a fight.
	She calls the cops.
	Now it's a domestic.
	He gets restraining order just naturally.
	And then they fall back in love A year later or months later, he moves back in.
	That's a violation of the restraining order.
	So then they get in another fight because they're drunk or high, and then she calls the cops again.
	As far as the law sees, this guy with the restraining order crawled in through the window and is stalking her.
	Even though he has a sock drawer there and there's his posters on the wall, that's irrelevant.
	So she changed her mind, but he's gone.
	And this corrections officer is telling me there's thousands of these cases of love affairs gone awry.
	Yes.
	And revenge.
	Yes, revenge.
	So two of the exoneres that I highlight in Railroaded are law enforcement officers, one Ray Spencer in Washington State, whose ex-wife was having an affair with the internal affairs detective who launched this case against Ray Spencer.
	The ex-wife claimed that Ray had molested his own children.
	They were both very young, and very much like the Wenatchee case that I told you about and the McMartin case, these kids had memories falsely implanted in them.
	He was sent to jail for life.
	And this is a cop sent to prison for molesting his own children.
	It took him 20 years, and he's tough as nails.
	He survived that.
	And he earned his master's in psychology while he was behind bars.
	And his children, once they reached adulthood, realized that they had been lied to and that they had lied.
	And they lost their father.
	They lost their father.
	They came forward with the truth.
	And he was pardoned by the then governor of Washington State, Gary Locke.
	He sued a conspiracy civil rights lawsuit, won a $9 million jury settlement that was then blocked by a corrupt local judge.
	He had to go to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals to get that jury settlement reinstated.
	His lawyer, Kathleen Zellner, is the most winningest exoneration lawyer in the country.
	Also now represents Daniel Holzclaw as he is fighting civil suits by all of these lying accusers who are trying to collect.
	They're represented by Benjamin Crump, the lawyer who represented Trayvon Martin's family and Michael Brown's family, is trying to fashion himself as the Al Sharpton of 2018.
	And it shows you that, and by the way, that jury resettlement, even though it was restored by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, by the time it went to arbitration for the county to pay up, was slashed to a fraction of what had been originally awarded by the jury.
	There's no justice.
	No amount of money can compensate for the destruction that these people are responsible for.
	I'm shocked he's alive.
	You know, I think a part of this is society, civilized societies, have trouble fathoming that women are capable of.
	Women can lie about sexual assault.
	And when you talk to cops, the numbers they give you are insane.
	The number of times they said, look, the reason I'm a cop is to catch murderers, rapists, pedophiles, bank robbers, bad guys.
	This guy, if he raped you, he's a bad guy.
	He's going to jail.
	But if you're just mad at him because you guys are breaking up or something, you've got to understand that not only will he go to prison, but you will be punished.
	If we find out you're lying, that's a crime.
	So what you're doing here has serious consequences.
	We're not just going to rough him up.
	He's going to go away for 15 years, and then you could go away too if you're lying.
	And they tell me, I'm scared to say the number because I hate how this sounds, but I can just tell you what one cop told me.
	He said 90% of the time, they say, all right, forget it.
	Yes.
	Now, I'm not saying that 90% of rapes are lies by any means.
	I'm just telling you an anecdotal story from a cop, but it scares me when I think about it.
	So I can offer some more background on that as well.
	Brent Turvey is a leading forensic scientist, and he is one of six scientists that signed a report decimating the forensic evidence and the way that the police conducted the investigation of Daniel Holzklaw.
	He's written numerous textbooks that are considered the gold standard on many investigative issues.
	And one of his most recent books, in fact, is the most recent book, I have a copy of it that I want to give to you, is called False Allegations.
	And he actually looked at the statistics that have been used by feminist advocates.
	They always say 2%.
	Yes.
	2% of rape allegations are false.
	This is a made-up number.
	Yeah, it completely made it.
	It came from Miss Magazine or something.
	It's a manufactured number by a feminist writer.
	I think her name was Elizabeth Boomiller, one of these hyphenated names, blah, blah, blah.
	Blah, blah, blah, hyphenated, blah, blah, blah.
	I should hyphenate my name.
	Give us more cred, right?
	Makes you sound smarter.
	Michelle Mulkin McInnes.
	Anyway, and so they had pulled it out of their asses, basically, or whatever, other buddy part, and cited bogusly some random judge in a New York district here, state judge, who had said something at a, it was at a convention, and he was just sort of surmising.
	Spitballing.
	Right, spitballing, thank you, the technical term.
	There was no journal article.
	There was no data collected, and then it just became ingrained the same way that wage gap statistics are ingrained.
	And they just kept repeating it, repeating it, and repeating it.
	Well, Rem Turvey actually has a chapter in his book, and he's published scholarly articles about this as well, in peer-reviewed journals, on what data does exist.
	And it's a wide range.
	And like you said, there have been police departments and sexual assault units that have said like the vast majority, right?
	90%.
	But it ranges anywhere, I think, between 20 and 95%.
	I actually have the exact statistics here, but people lie all the time, and there are many, many motives for women to lie.
	And a lot of them can be illustrated in Daniel Holtzclaw's case.
	Money, obviously, the prospect of a massive civil lawsuit.
	Distraction.
	In some cases, the accusers were involved in what seemed like shady activity, tension with family members, some way to gain attention.
	Got caught cheating?
	No, I wasn't cheating.
	He was raping me.
	Right, right, exactly.
	These kinds of scenarios happen all the time.
	And Brent Turvy makes the further point that people lie about all sorts of things.
	I mean, why wouldn't they lie about sex the way they lie about property crimes or Medicaid fraud or murder?
	I mean, there's a vast range of things that people lie about.
	Why would you carve out some special sanctuary area for the area of sexual assault and rape?
	And the problem is there are very few consequences for it.
	Yes, police can say, well, if you lie about it, something happens.
	But it rarely happens that anyone's prosecuted for lying about a crime.
	We see this with hate crimes hoaxes all the time, right?
	And what happens is it'll flash in the news.
	Oh yeah, that hijab tearing down was fake.
	And then it'll just quietly go away.
	And even if charges are filed, they'll be bargained down to nothing, some misdemeanor, pay $10 and have 10 days of community service.
	They say they don't want to discourage girls from coming forth, discouraging women, so they don't punish them.
	No, then they incentivize it, right?
	Yeah, there's no punishment, then there's no crime.
	So is there hope for Holz Klaus?
	I think there is.
	I wouldn't have imagined two years ago when we debuted this show that there would be people across the political spectrum who would be willing to put their necks out and their reputations on the line to speak about his innocence.
	And that includes fellow law enforcement officers, retired, active duty, who are volunteering for his case.
	It includes eminent people in the legal community like Kathleen Zellner, who are, she's representing him on the civil side.
	People from across the aisle, like I said, there's an Innocence Project veteran, Craig Cooley, who is now also helping out on potential post-processing.
	So this is bipartisan.
	It is, yes.
	It's just blown up the spectrum.
	You know, the arc bends, and that's where we are at this singular point.
	And I think that it has reached this tipping point.
	And the problem is that he's behind bars.
	And this is just, I am very privileged and have the opportunity to be able to visit him on a regular basis in an undisclosed location for his protection.
	And it is tough.
	It is tough every day.
	It's very hard for him to be able to be connected to the world and his identity has been taken away from him.
	He's destroyed.
	And nothing mattered more to this dedicated cop than his character and his integrity and his honor.
	Fortunately, there are other people who've been through the same situation who are able to counsel him and support him in that way.
	But the more I can talk about it and spread the message about it, the better.
	But like I said, it's horrifying to me to know that there are so many more out there like him.
	Well, I mean, you found a hole.
	Everyone wants innocent people exonerated, but you found a hole where some were more There was a hole with right-wing people that were wrongly, or seemingly right-wing people that were wrongly accused.
	But I really hope people see you doing this and get inspired to do it themselves.
	I hope so too.
	I hope you're starting a trend here.
	It is the most satisfying work I've done in a quarter century.
	And, you know, I half joked about getting a law degree, but it's something my mom always wanted me to do.
	She'll even bug me now.
	Like, I haven't really made it.
	I think it's an immigrant thing.
	Well, you're not a lawyer and you're not a doctor, so have you really made it in America?
	Maybe.
	Maybe.
	I hope so.
	I mean, not you being a lawyer, but this being a trend, because if there's one thing that should bond us all right and left, it's that we don't like the idea of people in cages.
	Yes.
	We want mass murderers off the streets, but we don't want innocent people off the streets and, I mean, in prison.
	And it's just hard for our little weak, coddled brains to imagine the suffering that must go on for the innocent in prison.
	You know, I think it's been important for me to enlist my children and have them see what we're doing.
	And my husband, Jesse, has been my partner in life and partner in all that I do.
	And he's thrown his heart and brain into it as much as I have.
	And I want to animate my children.
	I don't think there's any better way to inculcate this value of justice, which is where we started in this conversation, than to show my children that the only shame there is in knowing the truth and not doing a damn thing about it.
	I want my children to be the kind who will be the whistleblower, the people who go against the grain, the people who are mavericks.
	And what I have always detested most, and this is a completely separate but related area, is education policy, is that you have government schools that preen and preach about how they alone know best how to teach critical thinking skills.
	This is the educraties, and it wasn't just Common Core where this idea was born that we must trust these licensed, professional, credentialed educators to teach critical thinking skills.
	Because those laboratories of the government schools have been at the heart of why we are so screwed with witch hunts and social justice mobs.
	Because they are Factories for brainwashing and the most stultifying orthodox thinking and mediocrity.
	Yep, they're really dangerous.
	They're Marxists, socialists.
	They're brainwashing our kids.
	I think they're radicalizing kids.
	I wouldn't be surprised if their anti-Americanism radicalized the Sarnev brothers.
	Yes.
	You know, that's a whole other show, but they really are insidious.
	They are.
	And look what's happening.
	I mean, again, let's just talk about the specific things that just happened in the last week.
	You've got that young man, Kyle Keshev, at Darkland.
	Yes, right?
	And he's not the only one.
	I think there was another parent who tweeted, it was Ken Bone.
	Did you see this?
	Red sweater Ken Bone.
	His son got called into the principal's office because Ken Bone himself published a photo on Twitter of his son at the gun range with Ken Bone standing behind him in his red sweater.
	Because there's something menacing and wrong with that.
	And again, it seems different.
	It seems like there's more now of a groundswell of people.
	I mean, Ken Bone, I mean, he was chumming it up with liberal journalists.
	Yeah, the school moms of the left have made themselves so unappealing with all their rules and all their scolding that they've accidentally red-pilled an entire generation.
	And there's a real groundswell where they don't watch MSM, they don't watch TV even, and they're getting all their information from the people.
	It's almost like the beginning of the American Revolution all over again.
	Yes.
	And again, it is so much easier to pick the path of not knowing or the path of not knowing and not doing anything about it.
	And I try to teach my children by example every day that life is worth living and these battles are worth engaging.
	And I know that there are a lot of people who are my followers and readers over the last quarter of century that have given up, that have written it off.
	I mean, they're ready to move to Japan or New Zealand.
	And I think that the American experiment is, and again, because of our shared immigrant experience, we know this, I'm not ready to give up.
	I mean, I will go down till the last day.
	You're more active now than you've ever been.
	And your words are inspiring.
	You don't look like Batman, but if I imagine you with a deeper voice, you are Bruce Wayne.
	I appreciate that.
	I prefer the Wonder Woman analogy.
	I feel like a lot of times I've got these sort of metaphorical bracelets, and it's always bing, bing, bing.
	I don't know, you've got more gumption than her.
	Michelle, thank you very much for coming on this show.
	Thank you.
	This is so enjoyable, Gavin.
	I appreciate the opportunity.
	Scary and stimulating at the same time.
	Yeah, right.

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