JJ Redick details his Duke experiences with racism, including hostile chants and a rap song with a black roommate, while debunking victimhood narratives regarding his athletic comparisons to LeBron James. He analyzes the "hot hand" phenomenon, critiques Larry Bird's three-point stats against modern data, and recounts guarding Kobe Bryant in the 2010 Finals, highlighting Kobe's extreme work ethic and his own career-ending heel injuries. Redick concludes by discussing his difficult retirement, his desire to coach Luka Dončić, and how his podcast with LeBron James prioritizes raw, unfiltered basketball analysis over reactive commentary. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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How The LeBron Pod Started00:10:07
How did the pod with LeBron come to fruition?
I've known Braun now like 24, 25 years.
We saw each other in December with the folks on his side, had a conversation, and that got the ball rolling.
So he picked you or you picked him.
There's no good answer to that.
Seems like there's a great answer.
Is there any heckle that you laughed at?
During warm-ups, I had noticed there was a group of students sitting in the front row and they had t-shirts with my picture on it.
On the picture, it said, When I grow up, I want to name my kid JJ Reddick.
So I went over before the game to get a closer look, and then they turned around and it said, and beat him every day.
Did you know that I recorded rap songs in college?
Is this a bar for you?
I was the inspiration for Martin Luther King.
I'm the reason Frank Charles can sing.
That's bars.
Was that you?
I wrote that.
White chocolate was on this pod?
Yeah.
White chocolate was on the pot.
He fucking killed it.
But he played chocolate chocolate.
Yeah, I played chocolate Jay Will.
One-on-one.
The Duke J. Will.
Yeah, Duke J. Will.
Yeah.
One-on-one.
And who won?
Come on, bro.
You won?
Yeah, of course.
Oh, you don't know the story?
I don't know the story.
I've never lost to an NBA player at basketball.
I'm just telling you.
I've never lost.
Spotted him six in a game.
Listen, he gave, we had to play till seven.
But listen, he gave me six.
I didn't ask for six.
He gave me six.
His Hubris got the best of him.
And then, you know, I had to beat him.
I had to hit him with a little crossover, teardrop, no big deal.
How many would you take from me?
How many do I need to spot you?
In one-on-one?
Yeah.
No, I'll beat you straight up one-on-one.
I'll beat you straight up.
I'll beat you straight up one-on-one.
Because think about it, like Jay Will is, you know what I mean?
He's the best guy.
The best player to come out of Duke ever.
No, no, no.
Okay, what would I do?
How would I handicap you?
Okay.
No, you can't shoot threes.
Oh, you're getting destroyed.
How?
Bro.
Going to the basket.
Remember, my goal is to get away.
What am I cooking you?
It was going into my job.
Fuck.
It was going into my junior year.
No, going into my senior year of college.
Okay.
My girlfriend was, she lived in Minneapolis.
And so we were going to go to Big Sky for July 4th weekend.
So I went to Minneapolis first.
And so I grabbed her little brother.
He was in like sixth grade at the time.
I was like, I need a rebounder.
So we went to her local LA Fitness, whatever it was.
I don't remember.
Get my shots up.
And there's this guy fucking lurking over on the sideline.
And I get done with my workout.
And he comes up to me and he's like, man, I know you could shoot, but like, I played D2.
I bet I can beat you one-on-one.
I need to see you, you know, take me off the dribble.
Yeah, yeah.
And I beat him 11-0.
Easy.
No threes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like that Wayne Gretzky clip we just saw.
You have no idea how athletic I am.
No, no, no.
This is the thing that all of you are.
You're comparing me to LeBron and John Moran.
This is the really funny thing.
Is it like, you're an elite, elite athlete, but because you have to play against LeBron, sometimes guys look at you and they're like, damn, I could get a few points on JJ.
But that's not even close to the case.
No, that's racism.
That's real racism.
Dude, you're a victim of racism.
No, this is racism.
You think you beat him because he's one of those people.
No, no, no, because I had a roommate.
Dude, you're such a victim.
You think you've been able to do it?
He's lacking privilege, dude.
For real.
What's the scowl thing?
The scowl quote.
What is that?
Some guy, some fucking numb nut challenged him to a one-on-one and he's a child.
Calabrini.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's like, dude, I'm closer to LeBron than you are to me.
Oh, yeah.
Destroyed the guy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, no, obviously, I think that you would smoke me.
I mean, with Jason Williams, with black, with chocolate, chocolate, with chocolate chocolate, Jason Williams, you know, he did have like his foot was hanging off or whatever because of the motorcycle accident.
Oh, Jesus.
And he has what's called a drop foot.
Yeah, I mean, the way you said it, though.
Why?
Because I said it was hanging off.
And it seemed more severe than it was.
It was pretty severe, actually.
It was really severe.
And I was going at that foot.
I was.
I was targeting the foot.
That's an animal.
Yeah, come on.
I'm competitive.
You still need a killer.
Caitlin Clark, one-on-one?
Yeah.
Well, I do think I could beat any female basketball, but I don't want to take down the sport because they're doing so great and I love what's happening in female basketball.
But I don't think, and I have a daughter.
I have a daughter.
Do you think that's true?
Do you think he could teach?
You think he could teach it?
JJ, keep it a buck.
Mind it a game, bro.
Mind it a game.
Mind it a game.
Listen.
Just mind it.
You're not beating Caitlin Carter.
Did you see my paddle skills on my dragon net just?
Are you telling me?
You don't think I could beat?
Why?
Because she's such a good shit.
So me agreeing to come on this show.
I knew I was going to get roped into some shit.
I knew I was going to get roped into some shit.
I'm looking over here from here.
I'm like, someday I get a point on it.
It's so racist.
I had my roommate in college swore he could beat Eric Snow one-on-one.
He was like, remember Eric Snow from the Sixers?
He was like, I got Eric Snow.
I was like, you're out of your fucking mind.
Eric Snow, I don't know if I could beat because he's so dense.
You mean black by dead?
Oh, yeah, he's black.
No, but it is fucked up.
We got to stop.
We got to stop that.
We got to stop what?
Racism.
Do you agree with us?
JJ, we have to stop racism.
Now that it's affecting us, we got to do something about it.
Oh, my God.
Do you agree or no?
Do I agree?
We should stop racism.
Yes.
Okay.
Thank you.
Jesus.
That's a fucking softball card.
Did you know that I recorded rap songs in college?
No.
We have to hear these.
Okay, we might need to bring back some races.
Hold on, hold on.
I can't get rid of it completely.
Hold on.
We knew about the poetry.
Well, so the poetry was really just rap lyrics, right?
This is so interesting.
That racism turns into rap to poetry.
When a black guy's a poet, he's a rapper.
When a white guy's a rapper, he's a poet.
Okay, break it down.
Break it down.
Again, it wasn't good stuff.
Like, it wasn't good stuff.
I actually have some.
I just want to point out from you.
I have one of your raps.
But anyways, so I liked, I didn't have any of the tracks, right?
And the guy that I recorded with, who was black.
That was the issue.
Thank God he was black.
Yeah, yeah.
But he, like, we would be in dorm rooms.
Like, it was literally a, you know, a you guys had a phone and a mic, right?
Was it were you allowed in the same dorm rooms down there?
Yeah, we were.
They did.
Wow.
That was like 1920.
They got rid of that.
Oh, even a Duke?
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
But anyways, so a couple years ago, he's like, dude, I found the songs.
And I'm like, send them to me.
So he sends them to me.
And this was 2003.
Okay.
And me and him did a song.
It was an anti-racism song.
JJ.
People accused me of being this woke guy.
I'm the woke guy on ESPN.
I'm like, nah, man, I've always been like that.
Do you have it?
Can we listen to it?
That one I don't have on my phone.
That one on my phone.
That one you don't mean.
There's other raps that you have.
They're somewhere on my files somewhere else.
I love it.
That's awesome.
I actually have to go find because somebody did find some of F.A., who does phenomenal research for us, found one of your poems, which might be a rap.
So maybe we even some of them were more.
But here's the thing that I need to understand because you were getting through, like, you were getting heckled like an insane amount when you're at Duke, right?
Like, you just become this like poster child for all the hatred.
And I think Duke kind of represents, it's not only like a race thing.
I think Duke represents like elitism.
We look at them and we're like, oh, this is where all the money is, the power, the control.
And your face matched up with it, even though you're like a homeschool kid from Virginia.
You got the point when you said when he pointed me way more aggressively.
No, I'm just saying I did.
I fucked up.
Wow.
Coming from the guy with that haircut.
I'm just copying him.
I'm just trying to support my boy.
The guy with that mustache.
Okay, but I do have one of the.
So here's the thing.
They're calling you gay nonstop.
And then in order to combat that, you start writing poetry.
Take us through that.
Take us through that line of thinking.
It wasn't just like that.
Were you like so weird?
Maybe I am.
Think about this.
So, you know, NBA players, college players, high school players, when you like hit a shot, sometimes you hold your follow through.
And there was this guy at NC State who publicly, in an article, said he holds his follow through like he's gay or something.
I'm like, I'm like, nothing happened.
Nothing happened.
There was no like, hey, we need to, we need to cancel that guy.
It was just like, oh, he does hold it.
Yeah, he is kind of gay the way he fucks through his life.
It was just different time, different time.
Worse though, it was like, it wasn't, it wasn't.
There was some stuff I was sensitive about.
Like I had bad shoulder acting in college.
Oh, yeah.
And so I remember going to a UVA game and they had all these fake Duke number four jerseys and they had painted like red dots in the shoulders, right?
Damn.
And then like the shit at Maryland was like, you know, and Florida State too.
Those two places were like talking about raping my 12-year-old sister.
No.
Anyly raping her, like all this stuff about my older sisters and my mom.
So like there was a lot that wasn't just like, oh, this dude's a douche.
It was, it was like really targeted stuff.
And I think I may have done it.
I think I did a thing for ESPN where I was like, to combat this, I started writing poetry.
The reality is I was writing rap lyrics from the time I was like 14 years old.
We used to go to like, I remember vividly, we would say basketball camp.
We'd get done with the camp and we've got like six hours till like everybody's going to go to bed.
And everybody's flying out the next morning.
We're like, hey, guys, should we go like cipher in the room?
Like we just fucking freestyled in a battle rap.
You were saying this to other dudes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
At Duke, oh yeah.
So I was in a fraternity my first two years.
Writing Poetry To Combat Rumors00:02:13
We couldn't be in a real fraternity.
So we came up with PDF, which was Phi Drink a 40.
Okay.
Phi Drink a 40.
And it was like nine of us.
We had like sick gear.
Yeah.
Hoodies and shirts.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I don't, basically the fraternity's activities consisted of playing beer pong, getting drunk, going out to Chris Duhan's car, turning on like an instrumental beat, and then freestyling.
You're a better rapper than Chris Duke.
Did Chris spit?
He was fine.
But you had him, though.
Yeah, I had him.
Okay.
Is this a bar for you?
Just tell me this is a bar.
Just tell me this is a bar, okay?
A sharp thorn once cut my soul.
The blood flowed, but no bandage would ever cover the wound.
Is that rapper poetry?
I don't know.
I asked the Lord, what am I to do?
He said, son, I made the sky blue.
The rain falls because of me.
Leaves change colors on a fall tree.
I was the inspiration for Martin Luther King.
I'm the reason Ray Charles can sing.
I'm giving the strength to others through and through.
And my son, I'll do the same for you.
That's bar.
That's kind of fun.
Yo, you're like a white DMX, dude.
Was that you?
I wrote that.
You stuck the landing.
I got to be asked.
Stop the landing.
I was really up.
I'm not going to stop the landing.
That religious one is fire.
So diplomatic.
I wrote that.
I wrote it down there.
The M-O-K one.
You don't have to leave.
Come on, man.
God can do all things.
It's very simple.
If DMX spit it, you'd be like, you'd have a few more N-words in it.
And you'd be like, yo, that's hot.
Contributing to the racism by laughing that he's he's rapping.
Oh, dude, that's a white rapper.
That's bars right there.
I'm telling you, that's bars right there, bro.
I was very uncomfortable.
I'm the reason Bray Charles can sing.
I'm gonna strike the others through and through.
And my son, I'll do the same for you.
I won't take away that back knee.
You're the reason Ray Charles can see.
Stopping The Landing With Diplomacy00:03:00
Why would you help him do that?
Yeah, That is a good point.
Okay.
I shouldn't have done this.
Okay, so listen, you're coming off of right now.
You got the biggest podcast on the planet.
You know, of course, you came on here, so it won't see a second episode.
But isn't it?
Okay, the first episode.
I don't know why, but there is something very funny about those lyrics.
You don't know why?
I can't stop laughing because of your delivery.
Should I deliver it like you?
No, no, no.
Let me deliver it.
Do more emote.
Don't worry about it.
I'm going to deliver it like you back today.
Like a white boy.
I asked the Lord what I'm about to do.
He says, son, I made the sky blue.
Okay, yeah, that was a rough one.
That was a rough one.
That was a rough one.
The ending was good.
You can't focus on the individual lines because then it really pops out at you.
Okay, what was the funniest heckle you ever got?
Was there ever a heckle?
I want people to understand.
There's going to be younger people probably watching this.
You were arguably the most, you were the most famous non-NBA player in the world at the time.
Indisputably.
Who else?
Non-NBA.
I'm sure there was somebody.
I'm sure there was somebody.
I'm sure there was some.
Great answer, dude.
Do you not remember what was happening at this time?
It was insane.
I remember vividly.
No, not NBA basketball player.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, basketball player.
Basketball.
And one of the most recognizable figures.
And this was at a time, I don't think it's as much now.
The college game doesn't seem to like maintain the start.
You went four years.
Yeah, and my draft class was the first year you couldn't come out of high school.
So I was like the end of, I was the end of college basketball.
Not me personally, but like I was like the last guy to come out before everybody started the one and done thing.
Kevin Durant was right after me.
One year, then he went out to the NBA and he wouldn't come out of high school, right?
He was good enough to come out of high school.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that was part of, that was part of it.
It was still college basketball then.
Now I don't know what it is.
Yeah.
What is it now?
I don't know.
Did you watch the UBA game last night?
No.
No.
Why?
They had 14 points in the first half.
They went nine minutes without scoring and then 10 minutes later on in the game without making a film.
This is the women's game?
No, this was like a play-in game, 210 seeds.
No.
Yeah.
Bad.
And what do you think it is?
It's just there's no reason for the talent to stick around.
They're not even thinking of it.
G-League, maybe?
I don't think it's his G-League as much.
I think, truthfully, the one and done creates an environment where the best players are now one and done guys, and they never unpack their bags.
Coach K, used to always talk about unpacking your bags, right?
Pre-Sale Tickets For UBA Games00:02:57
Being all in.
Their mind's somewhere else.
You don't get any continuity.
The transfer portal now, like Duke, Duke, you know, we've gotten a couple transfer portal guys, but we still are playing like 18 and 19-year-old kids.
And then NC State, like the guy that starred for NC State in the ACC tournament, he's 24 years old.
He's a full-grown man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's just, it's a weird game right now.
Well, have you spoken to Coach K about it at all?
About the NIL and the transfer portal stuff?
Yeah, yeah.
Or just in general, college basketball.
And like, does he like this new?
I don't think, I don't think he's a fan.
Yeah.
I don't think any coach is a fan.
Yeah, that makes sense.
How do you feel?
They all have to re-recruit every year.
Every year.
I got a kid.
I recruit him in high school.
He comes in.
All right.
Now I got to re-recruit him so he doesn't accept the bag from whatever school.
Yeah.
Totally different now.
Announcements.
United Arab Emirates, not to be referred to as the towels.
The Chamakis have spoken.
And your boy is coming back.
They want more punishment.
The Chamakis want more punishment.
Okay.
I'm coming back.
I will be out there May 22nd for another show in Abu Dhabi, the Etihad Arena.
We are coming out there for Abu Dhabi Comedy Week, May 22nd.
Okay.
The pre-sale for those tickets.
Remember, pre-sale went crazy last time.
Show sold out on pre-sale.
So get on this.
The pre-sale for those tickets is Thursday, March 28th at 12 p.m. towel time, not to be referred to as towel time at 12 p.m. local time.
Okay?
12 p.m. local time.
Password is Andrew.
I will see you all there.
Also, America.
God bless you.
I'm coming.
Houston, April 5th.
We added a late show in Charlotte, April 13th.
Nashville, April 18th.
Austin, the Moody Center, April 19th.
And we added a late show in Phoenix, the Arizona Financial Theater, April 20th.
I will see you all at deandreschultz.com.
More tickets, more shows on sale at my website.
Go check out those cities.
Let's get back to the show.
All right, guys, we're going to take a break real quick because I got to tell you about Gaslit.
Keep watching it.
Keep telling people to watch it.
Hey, guys, I got 1.3 million subs.
I love that.
Thank you guys so much.
You don't need to subscribe.
What you need to do is watch it.
Tell people if you like it.
Tell everyone you know.
Let's get these views fucking crazy.
Gaslit on my YouTube.
Also, there's Gaslit Merch.
If you enjoy the special on my website, you can find a link for Gaslit Merch.
And then a couple quick dates next week, I believe, next weekend, April 11th through the 13th, Tempe, Arizona.
April 18th through the 20th, Denver, Colorado.
May 10th, LA, all sold out.
There are tickets available for Tempe in Denver.
But Gaslit, the special.
Guys, check it out.
Thank you so much.
1.5 million views in two weeks is wonderful, but I want to keep that shit going.
Thank you guys.
I love you.
Let's get back to the show.
Keeping The Hot Hand Alive00:15:38
College basketball back in the day was so much more interesting, especially your era.
So you get all this scrutiny.
It's insane.
They're saying all this crazy stuff.
Is there anything funny that people say to you?
Is there anything that like a heckle that you laughed at?
So probably the worst, not the worst, because I didn't think it was that bad, but the same game that there were signs talking about analyticing my sister, she was 12.
That was the same game where at the end of the game, the entire arena, I'm at the free throw line.
We're up five.
I've got basically like the game ceiling free throws.
The entire arena is chanting, fuck you, JJ, right?
Fuck you, JJ.
Wow.
Fuck you, JJ.
Like that.
During warm-ups, I had noticed there was a group of students sitting front row right at half court and they had t-shirts with my picture on it.
Okay.
And on the picture, it said, when I grow up, I want to name my kid JJ Reddick.
So I went over before the game to get a closer look.
And then they turned around and it said, and beat him every day.
I would never condone any sort of child abuse.
But that's clever.
That's clever.
And so I make the free throws and I go over them at the end of the game and I'm like talking shit.
I'm like, I need a t-shirt.
Give me a fucking t-shirt like that.
And Coach was, he was furious.
Did it fire you up when they were talking the shit?
Or did was there part of you that wanted to melt under the pressure of it?
No, I didn't want to melt at all.
It was like my first 10 games at Duke.
We had a bunch of home games.
We played UCLA in Indy.
Yeah.
In like the Farmers Classic.
I don't remember what the fuck it was called.
Then we played Ohio State in Greensboro in the Big Ten ACC, and then we played all home games.
So we come back from Christmas break and we go to Clemson.
It's our first real road game.
It's our first ACC game.
And I come out for warm-ups and it's like, oh, this is how okay.
I'm the guy that they've now chosen.
I'm the next Duke guy they're going to hate.
And it, I mean, I had 22 and 6 that game.
It was not about melting.
It was like, all right, you want me to be an asshole, immaturity, but it was like, you want me to be an asshole?
I'll be an asshole.
What I don't understand is how.
Some of it was deserved.
I mean, you look back.
There's a moment in the time of axe.
Like, we're like, were you getting so much hate?
We're playing Illinois.
This is the year before they made the Final Four.
We made the Final Four and 04.
They made an 0-5.
So we're playing Illinois in the Sweet 16.
And I hit a couple shots in the second half on Luther Head.
And I'm like doing weird shit with my head.
I'm bobbing my head.
I'm doing this.
I'm smiling and laughing.
But you're not allowed to enjoy yourself because you're a white man playing basketball?
I think Steph changed it for us.
I'm serious.
Steph does that shit all the time.
Yeah.
Like, and everybody's cool with it, right?
It annoys me a little.
No, there used to be.
I mean, there's not a single person who would say Steph Curry is annoying.
Yeah, I don't find him annoying.
You don't like him.
I love him.
I love Steph.
What are you talking about?
You hate his game.
You've said this many times publicly.
You hate Steph Curry's game?
You love Tyree's game?
This is blasphemy.
I don't understand what this role reversal is.
Did I say that?
Did I say that?
I'm going to have to check in a day, but I'm going to have to check the game.
We just had it.
I don't know.
Back in the day, back in the day when we talked sports on the podcast.
Yeah, you used to hate it.
That's the last I said.
What did I say?
I probably had a good argument.
Go.
No, you just didn't like his game, that he was just all shooting and nothing else.
Oh, yeah, but the argument for me was that I can't shoot.
Yeah.
It was sarcasm.
I can't shoot, so I don't like the fact that the game is now three-point shooting.
I just go to the basket and I get buckets.
So I like the guys who go to the basket and get buckets like Iverson.
Because that was how I played the game.
Yeah.
Like Alan Iverson more.
Wow.
But you did hate on him.
I just love LeBron and he's in the way of LeBron.
And so I'm like, well, you kept LeBron from getting four more championships or whatever.
So I chosen to root against him.
I'm sure he's an amazing guy.
I love every single thing he does.
I just get annoyed that the guy that I want to be the greatest ever could have probably eight championships if it wasn't for the Warriors.
But you're saying he made celebrating okay.
Yeah.
Got it.
Okay.
I'm wondering if there's anybody before I feel like a lot of people before him.
Like all the you had to be dunking and shit like that, I think is his point.
Like being a shooter.
Being a shooter wasn't ever cool in our childhood.
Name a cool three-point shooter.
Reggie Miller wasn't cool.
I love Reggie Miller was hated.
I didn't tell him all the shit.
Yeah, he was hated.
Yeah, yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
But people hated Reggie.
Yeah.
So shooting wasn't quite until Steph.
Yeah, I loved Reggie.
But where did you get the confidence, though?
That's what I'm trying to understand.
Like, where do you get the confidence to handle that kind of hate and scrutiny?
Yeah, when you're 19 years old.
Yeah.
You know, I would say it was not confidence.
There was the competitive part, which was very much easy.
Like, I'm in the arena.
I'm on a court doing what I love.
That was easy.
The confidence part, we haven't fully developed our egos at 18, 19 years old.
I don't think it was confidence at all.
It was actually insecurity.
And I mean, I had to start seeing it.
I saw a therapist every week for three years at Duke from my sophomore year on.
And it was because of like this whole notion.
Like I grew up a Duke fan.
I wanted to go to Duke.
Seven years old.
I watched Leighton hit the shot, mom and dad, I'm going to go play at Duke, right?
I want to go to Duke.
And I get to Duke and I'm like, oh, this shit's fucking hard, right?
It's hard.
Not only that part of it, the scrutiny, but playing at Duke was hard.
Yeah.
It was a mental fucking thing.
People get their, they bring it their A-game every day.
Like I had, I got tested every single day.
Yeah.
For whatever.
Body language, chewing gum, you're chewing gum.
My senior year, I set the ACC scoring record against Temple, and they played a box and one on me.
They had a guy, Marty Collins, who I'd played USA basketball with the season before, and Marty was like, he's like, hey, man, John Cheney said, you're not getting the record today.
We're throwing the whole fucking kitchen sink at you.
We're going to play box and one.
I needed like 11 points, right?
So I end up scoring like 13 or whatever it was.
They played a box and one the whole game.
We win the game.
We go to film session the next day.
And occasionally in my career, when I would have an okay first half or a bad first half, I'd put a piece of gum in my mouth just to like change things up.
It's like a superstition, right?
And coach the next day in the film session stops early in the second half and he's like, what the fuck are you doing?
Chewing gum.
Your head was not right.
And I was like, was it that or was it the box and one?
Yeah, it might be the box and one.
Yeah.
So it's like shit like that.
It was just like, it was just constant, right?
So through that process, I think ultimately it prepared me for the NBA because the NBA ended up being easy.
Did you feel was, oh, sorry, go.
Yeah, what was your reception when you first got to the NBA coming from this school?
The NBA wasn't easy.
I shouldn't say that.
The NBA was easier.
Was there any friction with other players who were like, oh, that's this fucking cocky kid?
I'm going to humble him.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
My teammates.
Did they call you milk?
Were they like, milk?
Did they milk check you?
That sometimes happens in football.
Did they milk check?
So if there's like a white player out there, they're like, milk.
And then if there's a white like DB, for example, you yell at your quarterback, you go, milk check.
And then the quarterback looks and sees the guy guarding you as white.
And then you just go long.
No, I didn't get that.
You never got milk checked.
No, I mean, I got like targeted.
Yeah.
On defense.
Yeah.
Every single play?
No, not every single play, but like early in my career and then late in my career.
I got targeted a lot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And are your teammates going beyond normal rookie hazing because of your you or is it just like, and what are they doing?
They were, it was all normal.
I like was late for a couple practices and the second time they tied me to a chair with my clothes on and shoved me in a cold shower and then left me there.
This is in Orlando?
Yeah, this was in Orlando.
Who did Dwight stay in the shower with you?
I should have told you.
Dwight's like, I have no great idea.
Honestly, let's strip him naked and throw him in a shower.
The reason I say that it was easier, though, was because the Duke experience, whether it was just the scrutiny and the hatred, whatever you want to call it, and playing for Duke and the intensity of that data spot.
It was like you get to the pros and it's like, okay, I know how to navigate these things down.
I'm well equipped to navigate the pressures and the competition and all the shit that comes with it.
And I guess you're not the biggest name in the NBA.
You're the biggest name in the NCAA, but in the NBA, they got LeBron.
I didn't expect to be.
I didn't expect to be.
I remember I was doing the 21 underworld championships in Argentina going into my senior year and Hoops hype wanted to talk to me.
And one of the reporters wanted to talk to me.
And so like the USA basketball comms person was like, can you get on the phone with this person?
And I remember them asking me about my expectation level for the NBA.
And I started that.
That was the same year I started taking Italian at Duke because I'd be like, it'd be cool to go play overseas.
I had no expectation of like a long NBA career.
And I was like, yeah, if I get to the next level, I don't expect to be a star.
I'll be a role player.
Okay, so you knew that going in.
I want to talk about NBA in a second, but I first want to talk about high school.
You're playing basketball in high school.
And I imagine it feels like you're a superhero, right?
Like you score whenever you want.
It is, I just need to understand what that's like.
Every single time the ball's going to you, every single time you put it up, nobody's upset about the shot.
Is it the easiest game?
Is it exciting?
Does it get boring?
Like, what is high school when you are the best?
It's interesting.
So high school and AAU are two different things.
Okay.
Right.
So my freshman year, I played varsity.
Yeah.
And I averaged like 17 a game.
Wow.
And then I went and played 17 and under.
So like that's all rising seniors.
I went and played 17 and under with Boo Williams, which was the other side of the state.
Didn't know any of the guys, didn't know Boo.
I like had like a person who had reached out to Boo and was like, hey, do you need a shooter for the summer tournaments?
So I meet them in Atlanta.
That experience, that was hard because I'm going against Dewan Wagner.
I'm going against Tyson Chandler, D. Wade, Darius Miles.
All those guys are rising seniors.
So that was hard.
I went to a public school in Southwest Virginia.
So like game to game, yeah, it was like, I wasn't saying I was ever on cruise control because it was like, but it was easy to score.
You could do whatever the fuck you wanted.
Yeah, but I couldn't because I had a great high school coach.
Okay, so the coach is eliminated.
But if you wanted to put up 50 a game, do you think that...
The most I scored in high school was 43.
Yeah.
That was the most shots I took in a high school game was 25, was the state championship my senior year.
The most shots I took in high school was 25.
I did not, I was not like you were like Dewan Wagner, where they're basically just going every single play, do whatever you want.
50 easy.
I'm just trying to understand how easy high school basketball is when you're a superstar.
Again, I think it's like night to night.
If I said to myself, I'm going to get 30 tonight, I'm going to get 30.
That easy.
Yeah, easy.
Okay.
Yeah, especially junior, senior year.
By that time, like I'm grown, I'm fully developed as like a high school player.
Nobody could bully you.
Yeah, it was like, that was easy.
Okay, so you know.
And I also like, the other thing, but again, Billy Hicks, my high school coach, like, we played a very specific like motion system.
He had gotten this like, I think we called it thumb up.
There's like four across the elbow and the free throw line.
Like so wings, two guys at the elbow, and it was just a movement set.
Like a stretch.
So like offense or whatever that was.
Oh, that's Princeton.
Princeton.
That's like back doors.
This was more like curls into pin downs, curls into pin down.
So like I learned how to play off the ball in high school.
We didn't run like high pick and rolls or ISO basketball.
And so we all kind of ate in that system.
It wasn't like.
It wasn't geared toward you.
Yes, exactly.
I had a couple plays.
Like I would get an ISO on the left block.
If they need a buff.
And then if I got hot, I would just kind of like give my coach a look.
I remember like my senior night, Coach K came.
I was coming off an injury.
We were playing at one of our rivals in our district.
And I got hot in the first half.
And I kind of like looked at him.
And he's like, let him go.
Which was basically my clearance to get a heat check-in.
Okay, okay, okay.
So this is one of the questions I have.
And I do want to talk about NBA stuff.
And there's tons of people I want to talk about in the NBA.
But is getting hot real?
Yes.
Because I'm sure you've spoken to the analytics guys and they say there is no such thing as getting hot and momentum and data, whatever, blah, blah, blah.
But you felt it.
I'm sure you remember the times in your career where you feel it.
What is getting hot?
Do you know what flow state is?
Yes.
Yes.
It's just flow state.
So it's no thinking.
Yeah.
Doing.
Your body, it's every shot, every motion.
It's just like perfect muscle memory.
There were games, I'm being serious when I say this.
There were games where I would shoot like eight for 12 and I'd be like, man, my shot didn't feel good tonight.
And then there could be a game where I shot eight for 16 and I was like, I was in the flow state tonight.
Wow.
Because it's like, again, you're at that level in the NBA, your margin at my size is like.
That's why the analytics guys don't get it because they're looking at the data.
I did a senior project in stats on the idea of like the hot hand.
Yeah.
And at the time, it was very much undisputed.
There was no such thing.
And so I do the project and I came to the same conclusion.
And of course, now I think pretty much that has been debunked.
There was a book about it a few years ago about the theory of the hot hand.
And it was pretty much debunked.
It was debunked that there is no such thing as a hot hand.
No, there is.
There is.
No, that they actually can put it in.
But no, the idea that there isn't a hot hand.
Yeah, the idea of a mad idea, et cetera.
There is a hot hand.
Yeah, sure.
So we believe it.
There is data to back it up.
Was there a way to do that?
When you're on stage, man.
100%.
100%.
On stage, you know.
Perfect connection.
You know exactly.
When you're killing it, you know it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're not operating in the deficit.
You're not worried about what's going wrong.
You are fully present and you are locked in.
Was there a way for you to access it frequently or was it just random?
There were ways to try.
A lot of it became about like the prep, the routine.
Even going back to high school, I was always like a visualization person.
So I had this free period and I would walk through the gym.
And I don't know why.
Because we had an auxiliary gym.
I don't think there was really ever like gym class by the time you were like a junior or senior.
So like I would walk through the gym on game days and I would like picture the spots on the court and I'd leave the gym.
And then for the rest of the day, I'm visualizing coming off of pin downs.
I'm visualizing my footwork.
I'm visualizing like the angle with which I want to release the ball, where the defender is.
I always had the ability to do that.
And so that was one of my sort of like preps to get into the flow stake.
Wow.
That was one of the preps.
Even at like 16, 17 years old, you're doing that.
We're probably doing it at like 15.
Yeah.
Wow, wow.
But Steph, Steph is able to access better than any basketball player.
It's miraculous.
Yeah.
Unbelievable.
It's unbelievable.
He's, you know, something that's interesting about like the Steph, I got to watch Steph up close when we were in San Francisco doing shop shooter shows.
Steph Accessing Better Than Anyone00:15:06
And I don't think his speed translates on TV.
Yeah.
When you see him up front, he is by far the fastest.
It's like no one's even close.
But on TV, it seems like the game is operating in slow motion.
It's the same thing with like Brunson.
I'm like, I'm watching Brunson be so fucking effective, get to whatever position he wants to get to, but I don't see him as like a freakishly fast dude.
So I'm trying to understand what creates game speed.
All right.
So I'm going to actually grab this real quick.
If you don't mind.
Yeah, you got something for me?
He's got to take a call.
No, no, I got it for you.
I just got to find it.
You got some more lyrics for you.
You got bars for us?
Can you explain?
I just want to run all this stuff in here.
So this idea of like an athlete in basketball, basketball athleticism.
So what goes into that?
So historically, or traditionally, I should say, we think of basketball athletes as being vertical and linear, right?
Fast and up.
All right.
So these are the things that go into being a great basketball athlete.
Change of direction, balance, coordination, change of pace.
We talked about the deceleration before we started, which is the most fascinating thing in today's NBA.
Strength, vertical plane, pliability, which is just flexibility, mobility, reflexes, stamina.
And then the cognitive side of that is pattern recognition, spatial awareness, which is an easy way to say court mapping.
Nikola Jokic, court maps, anticipation, and then cognitive load.
That's the mental bandwidth piece.
How many things can you process at once?
At the same time, right?
So it goes back to what you said about me as an athlete when we first started.
Like, I am not a great athlete in the NBA.
I'm not.
Relative to the average person, I'm a great.
I'm in the 1%, but I'm not in the 1% of the 1% of the, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
So all these guys that you're like, how do you explain it?
It's because they have all of this shit.
Maybe they don't have vertical.
Maybe they don't have linear.
Luka Doncic is not a vertical or linear athlete, but he's got the best brakes in the fucking world.
And can you explain why brakes make it so effective?
Well, so what he does, actually, this is what I wanted to talk to you about.
All right.
So what he does is like, there's a constant change of pace.
He's on balance.
He's trying to get you on balance, off balance.
Once you're off balance, he's still on balance.
He changes his pace.
He has created an advantage at that point.
So now he's got you on his hip.
Potentially, he's blown by you.
Maybe you reach in, he goes through, he draws the foul, whatever.
But let's say you catch up to him.
You're now going in acceleration, full speed, and he goes into deceleration, you fly by.
So on his drives, his ability to decelerate is special.
Yeah.
And he's very effective without having to create immediate acceleration.
Like I remember, and I'm not in any way comparing myself to him, but I remember for me, in order to have any competitive advantage when I was playing, I had to make a commitment to going to the basket after one move and put everything into it because I didn't have that extra, I had maybe a decent first set, but I'm committed 100%.
Now, at that commitment, 100%, I didn't have the brakes to stop if the guy was with me.
But that was the only way that I knew.
And when I started to play at higher levels and guys could stay with me, it was a little bit, it was way more difficult for me to score.
To see him do it at like medium speed, it feels like.
And the second you're on his hip, it's over.
Right.
So it's like, it doesn't, it's not like he needs to blow by you.
He just needs you here.
Once he gets you off balance, it's and he's 6'8.
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
30, depending on the day.
Seems incredibly strong.
Yeah, his lower body is insane.
Okay, so what about his lower body is insane?
Wait, What do you mean?
Like all legs.
Oh, yeah, it's strength.
So that's the brakes.
Yeah.
What I was going to say about Brunson and Luca's in this category, and I put like Kyrie in this category is like, I was thinking last night before I went to bed because I watched some of the Mavs game against the Spurs.
And then once the Nuggets game came on, I really wanted to watch that game.
So I watched the full Nuggets T-Wolves game and I was laying in bed and I was thinking about how we break down certain players and like what a scouting report is on a certain player.
And for some guys, it's like me, I was at a very simple scatter report, right?
But for some guys, it's like...
What was yours?
What was yours?
You have to be aware of where he is at all times.
He's in constant motion.
I like to turn over my left shoulder.
If you could force him out to the right side where he turns over his right shoulder, you're going to.
Turn over your left shoulder means you're getting the ball.
So the basket's that way.
I wanted to turn this way over my left shoulder.
So you're coming around.
Defenders on this side.
Yeah.
My right hand is here.
You can't get to the ball.
I turn the other way, right?
I have short arms, alligator arms, negative wingspan.
But I was thinking about certain guys where it's like, all right, this guy in isolation, he likes to go left.
This guy, if he's, you know, playing and pick a roll, he wants to come to his right hand.
He's going to shoot a one-two dribble pull-up.
This guy's better finishing right.
There's some guys that just defy breakdown.
Luca defies a breakdown.
Like, what is his scattering report?
Yeah.
Jalen Brunson, by the way, like I've watched him over the last two years.
And I played with Jalen.
I knew he was good.
I did not know he was going to be this good.
Jalen Brunson, it's like, is there an answer for him?
Because he can score going right.
He can score going left.
He can shoot threes off the dribble.
He can shoot, catch, and shoot.
What makes Jalen so good?
Going back to that, he's got a lot of those qualities, right?
I don't think he's the fastest guy.
Certainly not a vertical athlete.
He's always on balance.
Yeah.
And he does everything, every trick, the footwork, the body shifts, the handle.
He does everything to get you off balance.
Also, the handle is never off balance.
The handle's underrated, too.
That's another thing.
Incredible control of the ball and ability to change directions.
And he has that kind of almost like, you know, remember IT's dribble?
Oh, yeah.
You know, where it's like he kind of lulls you to sleep almost.
And then first step.
Yeah.
See you later.
I feel like Jason's got a, Jalen's got a little bit of that.
Do you know what a keep action is?
No.
A keep action.
So Draymond Green does this a lot.
So you throw him the ball and you go to chase it, or he goes into a dribble handoff on the other side.
A dribble handoffs just mean you dribble at somebody and you hand it off, right?
So when you, a keep action is you dribble at somebody, your guy then tries to help and you just keep it and go, right?
So Jalen Brunson will bring the ball up on the right side of the floor and he will go to a dribble handoff with the other guard and he'll do this and just keep it, right?
I'm at a game.
I have a friend who has courtside seats.
So he invited me and we're at a game and I'm sitting courtside across from the Knicks bench and looking at Tibbs.
Knicks are going that way.
Everyone is sort of backpedaling near Tibbs and Tibbs calls seven keep or whatever they call their keep action.
Audibly.
Anyone sitting there can hear it.
Hear exactly the.
And I'm like, Jalen Brunson, keep action.
Here we go.
And Jalen Brunson dribble to the right side, does his thing.
Keep action.
Wide open layup.
I'm like, how?
Yeah.
How?
Memphis was playing a bunch of G-League guys.
So that was part of it.
But also, like, you know what's coming.
The best players, you know what they really want to get to, and you can't stop it.
And they still get to it.
They still get to it.
Michael Jordan wanted to get to his right hand.
And it's going to go.
Have you seen this shit?
What?
We've done with the 90s.
I hate this.
Who's paying for this?
This is your podcast co-host.
There's a media smear campaign out there for Michael Jordan.
And there's all these people that are like taking these clips and saying how like how trash basketball was in the 90s as if we didn't fucking watch it.
You thought it was trash?
No.
MJ does whatever he wants now.
And they tried to say MJ doesn't have a left hand and then they broke it down and it's like he goes to the left just as much as he goes to the right now.
This is a smear campaign.
This is a smear campaign.
I don't love it.
Because of some things that have happened on First Take and The Old Man in the Three, which is my other podcast, because of some things that I've said, I get to have this reputation as like destroying the older generation.
And it's like, what did you call this?
Janitors?
Plumbers and firemen.
There we go.
But here's everything I've ever said is you've been smeared.
In fact, what are the facts here?
Michael Jordan's a fireman in the night.
No, I was talking specifically about the players that Bob Cousy played against in the 1950s.
Okay, this is different.
In the 1950s, nearly every professional athlete in every sport had what?
Don't get me started on the quota.
Wait, wait.
Talk to us about the Utah Jazz.
Go.
No, no, don't get me started on this.
But every professional athlete, not every professional, but most professional athletes had a summer job.
They didn't train year-round like we did.
They literally were plumbers and firemen and welders and farmers.
Oh, I don't know.
So it was a matter of fact that he was a little bit more than a hundred.
But you also say that I think the implication is they're less athletic, they're less good.
Well, they were less.
Let's begin.
In the 1950s.
But that's just a matter of what they got paid and they had to be.
They weren't like, hey, I want to be a plumber and I'll play basketball on the side.
You know what I mean?
Like they're very good basketball players who had to make ends meet, as was Bob Koozy.
I can absolutely, I've been so consistent on this, and yet people are like, you trash prior generations.
I've been consistent on this.
First time I ever commented on any of this was right after the top 75 list came out.
Yeah.
And you were pissed that fucking Dwight Howard wasn't on.
And all I said was we should absolutely celebrate the greatest players in every era, what they accomplished, who they were as players.
We should celebrate that.
But you can't tell me that, you know, Dolph Shays was a better basketball player than Tracy McGrady or Kyrie Irving or Clay Thompson or Dwight Howard.
It's not based in any sort of fact.
Now, relative to the competition, you could make an argument, right?
Relative to the competition, which is what I've been consistent on.
Celebrate what players were able to do in their era.
So I get knocked for, you know, I trashed Larry Bird.
Dominique Wilkins has been on like 19 different podcasts talking about how stupid I am for saying that Larry Bird is a top 10 player of all time and one of the greatest shooters ever.
So what?
But objectively, he's not a top five three-point shooter.
He's just not.
Well, wasn't there?
And the argument against that is, oh, well, if he had played in today's era, he would be a top five.
Well, that doesn't even make sense.
That's not based in reality or fact.
Wait a minute, but was there a three-point line early in his career?
Three-point line was 1979, 1980, I believe was the first year of the three-point line.
Chris Ford made the first three-pointer ever.
But when does he come in the league?
Bird.
He was the class of 79, wasn't he?
Okay, so right.
So the game is a little different.
But you're saying the data doesn't show that he's a top three-point shooter.
Yeah, he shot like three a game or something.
Yeah, I mean, 37% for his career.
Draymond Green just passed him in the all-time.
Total three-point.
Yeah, yeah.
I believe Richard Jefferson is right above him, too.
I'm going to say Richard Jefferson's one of the best three.
So what was Larry Bird good at?
But I think that's.
Larry Bird was one of the greatest players ever.
Yeah.
He was a great shooter, first of all.
He was a great shooter.
Incredible passer.
Yep.
Insane.
He's also, to me, like when I watch, because I watch full games and then I watch, of course I watch the highlight monitors that we all watch.
I love watching full games on YouTube.
It's one of the greatest gifts ever of YouTube.
But he's another guy who like defied a definition to me.
He defied a definition.
Jordan defied a definition.
He defied a definition.
They're transcendent players.
Yeah.
Transcendent.
That's how I look at him.
But not a good three-point shooter.
No, he was a good three-point shooter.
But one of the best shooters ever?
But Mad Dog that day said to me, but Larry Bird won a three-point contest.
I'm like, are you serious?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's been a lot of guys that have won three-point tests.
Did you ever win three-point contests?
No, I fucking never made it past the first round.
Wait, why?
Well, the first year, the first year I shot.
That's because the rack is not on the right side.
If you have the rack on the right side, sometimes what drives me crazy, though, is like, again, like, you need people to talk for shit to you while you're shooting.
That's what I'm saying.
That's that problem.
And then there's like facts.
And we have like cameras in the arenas now to track everything.
I can tell you that Wembinyama's release point is at 9.4 feet.
I can tell you that LeBron James this year on catch and shoot threes, his right shoulder is turned six degrees more to the right.
So he's more square to the mass.
You would know catch and shoot threes very well.
So my point is.
Are you a catch and shooter?
I was for like.
No.
Of course I was.
But I was also one of the top off-the-dribble jumpshooters in the NBA for years.
I knew that.
Was one of the best mid-range shooters in the NBA for years.
It wasn't just like, when people say spot up, I'm like, I didn't even practice spot three.
You didn't even practice it.
No, I didn't practice spot-up three.
Why would I?
Why would he?
Why would I?
He's put it on the floor.
What am I getting at?
He's put it on my floor.
I'm moving.
Also moving, dickhead.
Yeah.
Come on, bro.
Yeah.
Dude, you see how these Browns try to fucking take us down, man?
It's fucked up, bro.
This is what your senior thesis was about, actually, is you not being.
Yo, did you ever cross anybody up in the league?
Is there anybody that you put on the floor?
On the floor?
No.
I mean, I had one on LeBron.
You crossed him up?
Yeah, but I missed the shot, so it doesn't count.
Damn.
Hold on.
You went to the bottom of the middle.
No, Steph was off a jab step, though.
I mean, that was like that.
He hit the deck.
Yeah, Stephen.
You made Steph hit the deck.
Was this early ankle, Steph, or late ankle?
No, this was game seven of the 2014 playoffs.
Jab step.
Dow and her.
No, so like he was in help.
Yeah.
Chris swung it to me, and he, the angle he closed out on me, I would always, when, especially on the left side, so I'd get to my right hand.
When guys would close out that way, I would drive against the closeout.
I would drive against the closeout.
Wait, do we have this shit?
Oh, there we go.
Oh, my God.
Look at this.
Hold on.
I think it was CP just swung it to me.
Early health position.
Wait, here we go.
Bye.
Dropped him.
Dow and Herbie.
I'm not sure how he felt.
It was not like a special move.
That was the most basic move ever.
Hold on, hold on.
But you faked what?
I just drove away from his body.
Because he was terrified of you putting it on the floor, right?
No, he was trying to get it.
Let's watch that again.
Yeah, let's watch that again.
Because he read the scouting report.
He's like, he's a catch-and-shoot guy.
He's a catch-and-shoot guy.
That is fucked up that they use that against us.
Killing The White Boy Shooter00:03:23
They really do.
Okay, so you drop, you put Steph in the dirt.
You cross the fuck out of LeBron.
I don't know.
Who do you not take down?
Like, why do you try to take down this generation's heroes?
You try to take the last generation's heroes.
You're not taking anyone down.
Bro, Larry Bird, you said couldn't hold your jocks.
You said Steph is on the ground when he plays D against you.
Like, there's obviously some ego here, you know?
Yeah.
You sent Mark the clip before the pod.
You're like, yo, bring this up randomly.
I don't know why you texted me.
Google YouTube, bro.
So Mark's not.
But I think Steph.
I think Steph killed the white boy shooter.
I think that error.
Yeah, because that used to be us.
Yeah.
Except for me, I never was a shooter.
I would go to the bathroom.
Explain that further.
All right.
So back in the day, and I know it sounds crazy, but whenever there was a white boy on the court, we would just assume he's a shooter.
And most of the time, they weren't a shooter.
And so now that he's turned the game into shooting, everybody's a shooter now.
So it's like, he took away the shooting.
He took away the one.
He took away our superpower.
His making shooting cool made black people be like, oh, I'll shoot you.
And now what place is there for you guys?
You know what I mean?
They're taking your jobs, dude.
They really are.
Sorry.
That's because you dropped them.
Pink's like, oh, yeah.
That's cool.
So what should we take back?
What should we take back?
deceleration we're good at that oh yeah we We can go slow.
We don't have acceleration.
We just had a 15-minute conversation with the pod.
You know, the coolest thing about player is slow down.
That Luca guy's really good at going.
Dude, but being slow is the new fact.
Yeah, it's the new fat.
It's the new fact.
It is the new fast.
If you can do it like Luca, then it's cool.
But you can't.
But also, don't you think that Luca gets away with stuff because he's so charming with the female refs?
I've never noticed that.
Oh, no, no.
That's a good clip of him.
Oh, he's just a suave, dude.
He's got that bulk and suave.
I love that what you put in the Google bar was Luca Riz.
Not my brain.
But it's the first video, right?
Gen Z Google.
It's the first.
Exactly.
Look at this.
Look at him rizz this girl up.
She can't even control herself.
Look at this.
Oh, what's up, Shawty?
Yes, of Fel.
Oh.
That's what we can take back.
Flirting.
We're good at flirting.
We can take that back.
Yeah, white guys are the best afforders.
I mean, you saw his co-host the other day on a bench, but wait, what happened?
What happened?
Oh, why are they giving LeBron so much?
LeBron can't even be friendly with the owner of the team he's on without everybody making a big deal of it.
It's a shame.
That's what do you call that?
Sexism.
Yeah, that's sexism.
You know what I realized just coming on the show?
What is that?
You guys are here.
You guys are here for the right reasons.
You're here to just break down fucked up institutional barriers.
Yeah, exactly.
Just like you, dude.
You do it through rap.
We do it through the podcast.
We're trying to break the ceiling, bro.
Yeah.
We're allies.
Exactly.
If you're late to practice, you are an ally, bro.
What were you doing?
Breaking Institutional Barriers Together00:03:29
Why were you late to practice?
What do you think that was about?
You were on CPT.
What is that?
Shut up.
That was good.
I'm teaching you that to do, bro.
That was good.
CPT?
Chinese people time?
No, Alex is the one who can only tell you what it is.
Color people tie.
We're known to be a little late.
Indians are too.
Yeah, we call it IST, which is weird.
Indian standards.
Indian stereotype.
But white people, we always show up on time.
You were 15 minutes early.
That is true.
You got here before me?
I was not.
I was like 10 minutes early.
You know what's crazy?
He's supposed to be 30 minutes early, but CPT.
Nah, he was waiting to meet up.
I'm snitching.
Sorry.
All right, guys.
We're going to take a break for a second because some of y'all want to be chef extraordinaires.
Okay.
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If you're going to make the meal for your loved ones, for a person that you're maybe just meeting for the second, third time, you really want to impress that person.
This is great.
Don't mess it up.
Okay.
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Now let's get back to the show.
All right, guys, we're going to take a break real quick because we got to talk about something important.
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So if you are injured in an accident, not calling a lawyer means you could be leaving money on the table.
When you're seriously hurt, your injury could be worth millions.
Leaving Money On The Table00:14:57
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Let's get back to the show.
Okay, so you're going into the NBA going, how long do you think your career is going to be?
I know you're learning Italian.
You're like, I might play overseas, but you get drafted.
How long do you think you're going to play?
One.
And two, are you just thinking about, okay, this is my chance to make generational wealth and then I'm out of here?
Or are you going, I'm winning an NBA championship?
What is going through your mind when you go to Orlando?
The first thing was like, can I get on the court?
Which that took a while.
So there's a process.
I mean this.
There's a process for every NBA player.
It was like, can I get on the court?
Can I get playing time?
Can I like show that I'm good?
Can I get paid?
And in a lot of times, like for me, early in my career, I played on a great Orlando team.
It was about winning a championship.
I played against the Lakers in 2009, which was my third year.
I was still on my rookie contract.
In terms of longevity, like I stayed four years.
So I turned 22 right after the draft.
So I play the four years.
I'm 26 in 2010, first time being a free agent.
And I really thought I was going to get a five-year deal from Boston for the full mid-level.
Were you guys talking?
No, no.
I did not think that.
But I played well against them two straight years in the playoffs.
So they're like, okay, we won't.
Yeah, yeah.
And then Perk gets hurt in game six of the finals against the Lakers.
So they used the mid-level on Jermaine O'Neill because Perk was going to be out that season.
And so I sat there for 10 days and I had to wait on LeBron.
So a bunch of guys signed, and then there was like a few teams that still had cap space that were waiting on LeBron.
Milwaukee.
Chicago was one of them.
So I signed with Chicago, but it was a three-year deal.
And I remember thinking at the time, like, all right, 29, maybe I could re-up.
But the reason I wanted a five-year deal, because I was thinking 31, I'm an undersized shooting guard with a negative wingspan.
I'm likely, this is going to be my last real contract.
So you're already looking at and then I made more money in my last four years than I did in my first 11 years.
Okay, so take us through that.
What is the, you're going from Orlando?
I thought you go Orlando, Milwaukee.
I was a restricted free agent.
So I'm on my honeymoon.
So I spent 10 days stressing out on my honeymoon.
I finally signed with Chicago.
I'm in Florence.
I signed with Chicago.
I've got to wait.
We then go to Barcelona.
And the entire, we didn't even like, we didn't do shit in Barcelona, but walk around and talk.
Yeah.
Because we were like, are we going to Chicago?
We don't know any Chicago.
Should we move to Chicago?
Should we live in Chicago?
Should we have an off-season home?
Should we, like, what do we do?
Like, we need a home base.
Like, it was just like this really uncertain period.
Yeah.
So I didn't really even enjoy Barcelona, to be honest with you.
And then the last day there, Orlando had seven days to match.
Yeah.
So on the seventh day, they said, we're matching the contract.
You have to go back, right?
So I then went back to Orlando.
The big thing for me was my last year in Orlando was our start of our rebuild.
Dwight left, got traded to L.A. Stan was let go.
But you're hooping.
They bring in Jacques Fawn, and Jock came to me in preseason.
He's like, I don't want you to start because if you start, it's you, Aflalo, and Jameer.
We're super undersized.
We're going to start Moharkless.
So you're going to come off the bench, but I want you to be my Genobi.
I'm going to, I'm going to literally, it was the first time in my career where it's like, we're going to run plays through you.
When you're on the court, we're running offense through you.
So I play well.
And that was like, to me, that was the turning point in my career.
So I signed with L.A. and the summer after my first year in LA, season ends.
I'm 29.
I'm getting ready to turn 30.
I'm getting ready to have my first kid, Steve Nash, live like two blocks from me.
So I keep running into him.
And I didn't really know Steve, but he was always super kind to me.
And one day I ran into him and I was like, hey, can I have coffee with you?
So we went and had coffee.
And I just said to him, dude, you're one of the few guys at that point that had gotten better in their 30s.
He was an all-star in Dallas.
It wasn't like he was a bad, but when he went to Phoenix, he got better in his 30s.
Yeah, it was a powerful.
Jalen Brunson was.
And he gave me some advice.
What did he say?
Shorter and harder.
You don't need to shoot 800 shots.
I know.
I know what you're going to say.
Can you not be a child for five seconds?
He cannot.
What does he mean?
I'm like, literally.
I can't do anything.
You know, what?
Okay.
I'll reword that.
For you.
The two white basketball players.
What's the best thing?
Short and hard.
Be more efficient.
Okay, go, go, go, go.
Be more efficient in your training.
Meaning like, and I had always worked and I'd always worked in my game, but it wasn't about volume.
It was about every specific thing that you were going to do on a basketball court.
Do it at game speed.
And you don't need 20 reps.
Do 10 perfect reps.
So my workouts ended up being the same amount of time, hour to an hour and 15 on the court every day, but they were more taxing.
Is that a better word for you?
Yes.
They were more taxing.
Thank you.
Okay.
Wait, so you started his Jewish time.
Yeah.
More taxing.
You started working out harder or they had more taxing workouts and you found that that benefited you more.
You weren't like tired for the games.
You didn't feel like your body would be.
I actually ran like on a track.
Yeah.
Or like I would go run like five miles at a specific speed to like build a base level heart rate.
I did that throughout my 20s.
By the time I got to like 30, 31 and all my off-season workouts, my basketball workout was so difficult that I didn't need to supplement it as much.
Now, two weeks before the training camp started, I would go find a turf field or I'd go find a track and I would do those cardio workouts.
But my basketball workouts were so difficult that like by the end of it, I've lost five pounds in water weight.
I've built up my cardio.
And so being able to like play and move at that speed all the time, that was essentially what created an advantage for me.
Okay, so you go to the Clippers.
You're already balling before you go to the Clippers, though.
You're already showing the league that you can score.
Yeah, Doc Rivers didn't save my career, if that's what you're asking me.
I wasn't going to ask it, but it's funny.
Okay.
What's up with you and Pat Bev going at it?
Our boy Pat Bev.
He's my guy, man.
Okay, good.
That's my guy.
I don't know.
Okay, so you go there.
You're already hooping.
You go there.
Do they bring you there specifically for that?
Is this just a good match?
Do you get a conversation where they're like, hey, we see what you can do?
You're going to get a lot of touches here, make it happen.
Well, so I get traded at the end of my last year.
My contract is expiring.
They traded me for Tobias Harris, who was a young player at the time on Milwaukee, who wasn't playing a lot.
So I go to Milwaukee.
We lose in the first round to the Miami Heat.
And I thought I was going to go back to Milwaukee.
And by the time it got like three, typically, like the team, your incumbent team can have some contact with you right before free agency.
They can, you know, it's not like a full negotiation, but they'll like, they'll check in with you or whatever.
So it's like crickets for like two months.
And I'm like, okay, Milwaukee's not going to happen.
So my agent calls me in, I was on vacation for my birthday anniversary.
I'm in Napa.
My agent calls me and said, Can you be in LA in two days?
The T-Wolves and the Pistons want to meet with you.
So I'm like, okay.
So I'm going to meet with Flip.
I'm going to meet with Joe Dumars.
So we decided to rent a car.
We rented, and all they had at the time was like this two-door Nissan.
Nice.
Yeah, it was great.
Drove literally, it was my first time doing that drive all the way from Napa all the way to LA.
We made stops in Big Sur.
We made stops in Santa Barbara.
It was awesome.
Get to LA.
I meet with Flip.
I meet with Joe.
Flip offers a contract.
And on our way down there, Chris Rivers, Doc's wife at the time, had texted Chelsea because Chelsea had taught her in Pilates.
She said, Can JJ have Doc's number?
So Doc reaches out that night when free agency starts.
Can you have dinner tomorrow?
So I've now met with the Pistons and the Wolves.
I go have dinner with Doc.
And at that dinner, he said, he said, I think you've been used wrong.
I want to use you like Ray Allen.
Now, I don't know if that was a recruiting pitch because I had talked a lot.
And Ray knows this.
I just had him on my podcast.
Ray knows this.
Like, Ray was the guy I wanted to be.
I wanted to be Ray Allen.
I didn't want to be a white shooter.
Wanted to be Ray.
Early Ray or late Ray?
Early Ray.
JJ?
Early Ray.
JJ.
JJ.
He was dunking on people.
I know.
Yeah.
I'll never forget in high school when they would do like the rankings, you know, and they would give comps for players.
Like my comp, you know, was always like a catch and shoot guy.
One time.
I got Ray Allen as my comp.
And it was like a dream, come dream.
I was like, I made it.
I made it.
Ray is my comp anyway.
So when I went to LA, like I got all the Boston stuff that Doc ran for Ray.
I got all that shit.
Yeah.
It was great.
And he was forthcoming with this.
He was like, listen, we really want you to cook.
Go out there, shoot.
I didn't even know I was going to start.
Like, that's the thing.
Like, I remember the first day of training camp, we went to San Diego that year, and Jamal Crawford was still there, right?
And Willie Green had started the year before.
They'd used Jamal as like a bench player or not, six man, whatever.
And I remember having a conversation with Jamal.
I was like, do you know who's going to start?
He's like, no, I don't know.
You asked Jamal.
Yeah.
So then I go to T. Lou, who was our assistant at the time.
I go to T. Lou and I'm like, I was like, who's starting?
Who's starting?
Like, I want to have some headspace as I go into my first practice with the Clippers.
And he looked at me and he goes, you motherfucker.
Like that.
And I was like, okay.
So that was like a big, I mean, I did that.
And I did.
Was there an ego issue with Jamal?
No.
He was with fam?
No.
He's the man.
No, we, him and I are, yeah.
Also, I love him coming off the bench.
Yeah, that's what I think he knew.
Just give him the ball.
Because like Doc also liked having all bench, at the time, at least, had like having all bench units.
Yeah.
So Jamal just got to cook when he was out there.
Did you ever try, like in practice, just try to stay in front of him?
Jamal and I never forget this one practice.
It was probably Glenn Davis was there.
So big baby.
I think he's doing porn.
But yeah, he is.
Film it.
Yeah, film it.
Film it for now.
That's how it starts.
Yeah.
But we were working on like some player we were playing against was going to play ISO.
So, you know, I'm on the starting team.
Jamal's on the second unit.
So Jamal gets to be the ISO guy.
And he like scored on me once and like Jamal carried the ball, let's be honest.
So Jamal carried the ball.
He hate by the way.
So he scored on me once.
So everybody's like fucking gassing him up, gassing him up.
And then so then I get a couple stops or whatever.
And I'm like, all right, now it's my turn.
Like, give me the ball.
So I'm like kind of going to him.
I score a couple times and talking shit.
How did you score on him?
Yeah, who would pass you?
I crossed over, hit a little floater in the lane, like that sort of thing.
But I mean, I so it's like literally a, we're on the right quadrant, high right quadrant.
Everybody's cleared out.
We're just like dancing.
Yeah, we all, you don't got a liar.
Yeah.
Anyways, baby, baby gassed me up after practice.
Yeah, what he says, he's like, yo, he can't hold you.
He can't hold you.
Jamal and I never once had a rivalry.
No, from day one.
He's like the greatest teammate.
He's the man.
I've heard he's the man.
I've heard he's like, he takes incredible care of his body, greatest teammates, super smart guy.
Doesn't smoke, doesn't drink.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gets to sleep.
Handles.
Unbelievable.
Never done a ball handling drill in his life.
Get the fuck out.
Wow.
That's what he claims.
So a guy like that, what does he just have, like incredibly fast wrists or whatever that is?
Or it's just super long.
He can get to the ball.
So he's got it on a string.
I think that's part of it with Kyrie, too.
I don't know his wingspan relative to like his body.
Like everybody's shaped different.
I remember DeAndre Jordan.
I'm like, dude, you have no torso.
He's all legs.
No torso.
He's all legs.
Vince Carter and I. Vince is like 6'6.
I'm like 6'4.
So if Vince Carter and I sat next to each other like this, I'm like two inches taller than him.
Oh, he's all legs too.
He's all arms and legs.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I, I don't know.
I feel like Kyrie, maybe, I don't know his wingspan, but I feel like Kyrie's like, you know, anatomically, it's just like built so that he can handle the ball.
Yeah.
He's obviously worked at it too.
Yeah.
And just unbelievable touch, like finishing ability.
What is that?
What do you think that would be?
Touch?
To describe it, like technically?
Yeah.
Did you?
Oh, here's a better question.
Did you think you had good touch?
Prolific shooter, but did you think you had good touch around the rim?
A few years where my float game was pretty good.
Okay.
My finishing numbers were pretty good, like prime of my career.
I had a shoulder issue in the summer of 2016.
It was right off the season.
I led the league in three-point shooting that year.
I used to do the walkaway.
You know, the Steph walkaway where you shoot?
Like that year, I had a few of those where I'd shoot and I'd turn run up court.
It felt good.
I'm not going to lie.
It felt pretty good.
But we go to, my wife and I went to Santa Barbara after the season.
And I've got a soon-to-be one-year-old and I'm throwing him in the pool.
And I like fucked my shoulder up.
I got MRI.
Like there was nothing like...
Structurally wrong.
Structurally wrong with it.
Rest of my career, my shoulder was fucked up.
So you know how Markov folks, when he shoots, his shoulder goes like this?
So the rest of my career, I did that.
It really actually affected me the most on floaters and layups.
Like even I coach my kids and I'll be demonstrating a drill and like sometimes like I'll go shoot an uncontested right-handed layup and I'll miss it because my shoulder just like I can't activate my scapula correctly.
I have a bad scapular movement.
Yeah.
Same exact thing.
Yeah.
And you make up for it by just moving your entire shoulder instead of doing this rotation.
Yeah.
I used to when I would shoot free throws at the end of my career.
So normally I would just shoot free throws like this, right?
But at the end of my career, I had to put the ball out, like literally activate my, otherwise this thing would come up and I'd be shooting like this.
Shoulder Injury Ending My Career00:15:04
Okay, so what happens with the three-point shooting then?
I compensated.
How?
I'd sometimes shoot like that and then I'd just compensate for the angle of my shot.
What does that mean?
Well, again, I wasn't a catch and shoot guy.
Spot up.
On the move on the move.
You're not actually shooting at a moving target, but you are.
So like if you're coming off a pin or like, I remember there's one shot I made.
You can pull it up if you want.
I'll go on the text.
I'll go on the text.
There was one.
Yeah, yeah.
White boy.
I'll find it on the shoot.
There was one shot I made.
We were playing, it was LeBron's first year in LA.
So it was my second year in Philly.
We were playing LeBron on like a Sunday ABC game.
Ben gets a long rebound.
I'm over in the right corner in front of their bench and I'm on a dead sprint to the right corner.
Ben's doing his little thing and he throws it to me and I'm on a dead sprint and I look down to make sure I'm in bounds.
I catch the ball, kind of turn all in one motion, and I shoot it behind the backboard.
And the shot did not feel good because my shoulder did the thing.
It wasn't like I would occasionally get to shoot a pure shot where like my shoulder didn't do it, but my shoulder did the thing.
So I'm like behind the backboard.
Reggie Bullock fouled me.
It was a four-point play.
He's in my lap.
And so I'm like, literally like, all right, I've got to, you know, in the split second, I'm like, I got to shoot it and point at that moving target.
And the ball went in.
And I turned to TJ McConnell and I go, that was tough.
And I still think to this day, that was the greatest shot I've ever made in my life.
Okay.
What would we put in to get this shot?
I don't know.
Who are you playing?
Lakers.
JJ Reddick, four-point play.
Lakers made.
And 21 points that game.
Wait, I still don't understand what you're doing to compensate for the shot.
So shoulder goes.
I would just say if it happened, my point is, if it happened.
Which it did.
No, that's a different one.
That's, you know, that's just a normal four-point play.
Here's the question.
I see a lot of hatred.
I know.
I see a lot of hatred.
I don't justify it.
I thought it was wrong until right now.
Yo, actually, since while we're pulling this up, basketball players have crazy re-is that all basketball players that have recall like that?
I've always heard LeBron for any play from any time in his career.
You're saying about Bill Russell, too.
Bill Russell.
A lot of players do.
A lot of players do.
What do you attribute then to?
So someone tells me that.
I remember a lot of shit.
Really?
I remember a lot of shit.
Yeah, that's it right here.
Let's go.
Let's go.
Is it right here?
Simmons pass it to you.
Great shot.
That's ridiculous.
Wait a minute.
Hold on.
But I don't see your shoulder coming up.
Go back, go back, go back.
You get to zoom in.
Oh, look right there.
It's up.
It's up.
Oh, you're saying you're up here before you're even bringing your arm up.
Yep.
Yep.
And then, oh, wow.
Curious.
With the team aware of the game.
Look at the game.
It's there.
Oh, wow.
It is.
Look at it.
I do it all the time.
Oh, I see it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look at it.
Look at it.
Yeah, you can see the slant.
That's not how you should shoot a basketball.
Yeah.
Or like, did you hide it?
I wouldn't hide it because I shot 43% from three.
So it works.
So it helps.
It's kind of a rookie of the year situation.
It's kind of like.
Yeah.
The injury gets the better.
Dude, rookie of the year, bro.
This is brilliant.
So, and why didn't you try to do more catch and shoots?
Because that was actually really good.
It seems like you're really good at it.
No, I've been doing a lot of catch and shoots.
I was a good catch and shoot player.
Yeah.
And the way you said it, though, I knew it was spotted.
It's like he called you a honky.
I was going to say the recall thing.
So when I first started calling games.
Like when you recall when I called you a catcher.
When I first started calling games, I remember I had a Warriors game and we were in the green room and we were talking about my recall.
So Raymond, who's their head of PR and Steve Kerr walk in.
And whoever was, I think it was Ryan Rucco, but he was like, hey, Steve, do you have recall?
And he's like, oh, yeah, I'd recall.
I'm getting older now, blah, blah, blah.
He's like, apparently JJ has crazy recall.
So Raymond's in the room.
I've called 12 Warriors games since then.
Every single time he has a question for me about a specific game.
So I'm like 11 for 11.
Wow.
He comes to me on Saturday night and he's like, what's the biggest lead your team has ever lost and to lose a game?
And I was like, I think it was the lockout year.
And he's like, Do you remember who anything about it, the opponent, the thing?
And I said, I can't.
And it was the first time I didn't.
Wow.
But then once he said the game, I was like, I. Were you right about lockout year?
It was a lockout year.
The Boston Celtics, each one more came off the bench, had five threes.
Avery Bradley just completely, we were up like 24 and we lost.
Yeah.
I remember the game.
So what do you attribute that to?
Because it's one thing a lot of many pro athletes, but NBA in particular have.
Is that something that helps you as a pro?
Like, what?
I just don't know where it comes from.
If I could turn my brain off, I would.
It's not necessarily like not a good thing.
Yeah.
It's not a good thing.
I think a lot of people were in the room today at first take in Kimberly Barton, who does NFL.
I didn't even know I was doing it.
And she was like, What is going on in your brain?
Like, what is that face you're making?
What is going on in your brain?
You're standing at her feet.
No, I was literally, I was looking out the window.
I was looking at the fucking East River like this.
And she's like, what's going on in your brain?
And I had had one of my friends that still plays in the NBA and said, I want to come stay with you this summer and work on some catch and shoot stuff.
And I was literally going through the drills.
What kind of what did he want to work with you this summer?
Like movement shooting, movement shooting.
Not a lot of shooting.
He'll do that on his own.
I want you to know.
I was kidding.
And I was trying to jagger.
But you did a nerve.
He's confirming that.
The brain is just like this.
So like, you know, it's a good thing, but then it's like you're constantly being reminded of every like, I'll have shit.
And I'll like literally some days I'll be like, man, that one shot.
No.
Game five against the Boston Celtics in 2018.
If I make that shot, we probably win game five.
We go back to Philly.
Maybe we force a game seven.
Like, that's how my brain was.
What?
How open were you?
I was wide open.
Yeah.
TJ McConnell drove baseline.
I was on the left wing.
They helped on him.
We had a cut.
Maybe he sidespin on the pass in defense.
And my shoulder did the thing.
And my shoulder did.
And I was short.
Damn.
Yeah.
But do you overthink sometimes, like, because you're always on constantly calculating?
Does that ever happen in-game?
Occasionally, but no.
I don't want to compare, but there's a similar comic.
It's too fast.
That's the thing I love.
I was going to say it happens on the golf course.
Right.
It happens on the golf course for sure.
It's all a static sport.
Basketball's freedom.
It's dynamic.
No, it's freedom from your brain.
Yeah.
You need to be present every single second of the day because you're slow and white.
So you know what I mean?
Like in a high school, you could check out.
You could think about all these different things.
But no, no, but it's remember Coach Collins, Chris Collins, came to a high school game in your year.
I committed to Duke at this point.
Came to a game, and I had 28 points, 12 rebounds.
Recall, dude.
And he called me after the game.
We played Salem.
And he called me after the game.
And he's like, he's like, bro, I was so disappointed in your performance tonight.
There were so many possessions that you took off.
So your point, yeah.
In high school, it was too.
I could go get 20 and 12 and just.
But the league is perfect for you because for what is it, an hour, a night, two hours a night, your brain actually shuts off.
Yeah.
I think people feel that way about like surfing, definitely paddle, boxing.
As a comic, crowd work.
I have a similar, my brain doesn't shut off.
It's not always a good thing.
I can't sleep a lot.
My brain is just going.
But part of the reason I think I'm good at crowd work is my brain just gets to listen and react.
I don't have any time to overthink anything.
What do you say?
What's a clever response?
That's it.
So first take is like that for me.
Yeah.
Stay in the moment.
It's live.
Yeah.
It's live.
Yeah.
You're just in the moment.
I remember.
Calling games is like that too.
Oh, yeah.
Calling games, for sure.
Calling games is the hardest thing.
Yeah.
It's the hardest thing.
It's the hardest.
Why?
It's because like even first take, you have the topics ahead of time.
You can prepare.
I learned my first year.
I was like, I got to be on every production call.
So every time I'm on first take, I get on the production call at 7.30 in the morning, do the production call, then take my kids to school, come back home, get ready, go.
So I know ahead of time exactly what we're going to talk about.
Now, sometimes Mad Dog may say something, Stephen A may say something that you react to in real time, but you're prepared.
A game, I don't know what's going to happen in a game.
And I've got to talk about it in a way that's not repetitive or redundant.
It's not like, okay, I know Jokic is going to get post-ups.
Well, I can't just keep saying he's posting up.
So you have to think like on the fly all the time about what's happening and how you want to say it.
Plus, I've worked a lot of three-person booths.
So last year, this year, I've worked a lot with RJ.
Now I'm working with Doris and Mike.
And that is a challenge.
It's more of a challenge.
It's a two-person booth.
Really?
Because probably there's less time to talk.
You have to do everything quicker, like explaining things that could take.
You have unlimited time here.
The game is so fast now, too.
It's not the NFL.
It's not baseball.
Yeah.
Where there's 15 seconds between a pitch or NFL where you have two different reasons after every single play.
Real quick, what are they saying your responsibility is in the booth?
To celebrate the game.
So it's about the game.
So, but they're not saying that you have to do play-by-play.
That's Mike Breen, All Famer.
Exactly.
So they're basically, you're doing color commentary.
Color commentary.
Exactly.
So what does that exactly mean?
Are you describing what that player is feeling in the moment, what play they should do, why they did that play?
Hopefully it's a mix of technical and conversation.
Got it.
You know, particularly in like a three-person booth, you want to have like chemistry with the person.
When there's camaraderie, it's awesome.
For sure.
So then the other responsibility a lot of times is timeouts.
Going to timeout, they typically, you get one or two replays and then something called podbusters, which are essentially within a quarter at the end of a quarter, they may show like a two or three play highlight package of LeBron scoring in transition or whatever it may be.
Porzinga's spotting up from three, right?
And you have to sort of cover that.
But the play-by-play, I mean, that's like a skill that you have to go to school for and practice.
It's like, I didn't practice to be a color.
No, no, totally.
I'm just wondering what they say your responsibility is.
Like, what do the producers, when they hire you for it, say that you have to bring to the broadcast?
My insight to basketball.
Got it.
Yeah.
Got it.
Yeah.
I remember my boss said to me, he was like, as much as you can share, share.
But you have to do it in a way, something called laying out.
Yeah.
You have to be able to lay out too, which means laying out means you shut the fuck up.
So like Tony Romo at the end of the Super Bowl didn't lay out.
He didn't let Jim Nance set the stage, right?
Yeah.
Apparently, I heard people were talking about this.
It's a game-winning play in the Super Bowl.
The announcer makes one line and then you just let the crowd speak.
Yes.
And they say in Tony Ross.
And even after a big moment.
So that was the one piece of advice I got.
So I never called a game.
They gave, I begged my first year at ESPN.
I was like, can I please call a game?
Can I please call a game?
So they were like, fine, you can call Philly, New York, and I think it was New York, Miami, or Philly, Miami.
So my first two games were regular season games in March.
And the only piece of advice they said was like, you just got to lay out sometimes.
Don't over talk.
Joel MB texts me after the first game.
He's like, dude, you didn't speak in the first quarter.
I'm curious, if one of my favorite young up-and-coming players makes it to the league, like, how would you pronounce his name?
It's a good thing that you don't announce football, huh?
But, you know, I'm just saying.
You want another water?
Did you see this guy?
Did you see this stuff?
This poor guy, right?
What a poor guy.
We're not going to see that name in any of your poems, are we?
Okay.
Have you ever had a player get mad for your commentary?
Yeah.
These are your friends.
Your contemporaries.
What do you mean by that?
Like you say something and you're like, oh, he did this thing wrong, and someone hits you up and they're like, no, that's not what happened.
I did it differently.
You didn't see it properly.
Not on a game.
On some commentary, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And how do you handle that?
I just talk to him like we're friends.
And then they understand.
Well, no, so I try to understand them.
Right.
I try to understand them.
Yeah, it's happened.
It's happened a few times.
I can think of two off the top of my head.
For example, can you share?
No.
Private sector.
Gotcha.
Ever been threatened?
No, no, no.
Ever been threatened on the court?
Yeah.
Where?
KG.
Oh, KG.
KG came at me a few times.
Wait, what'd he say?
I don't remember exactly what he said.
So in 09, I didn't play a lot at the time.
And so Courtney Lee broke his face.
Dwight Howard hit him.
Yeah.
Teammates.
Hit him with his elbow.
He was a starter.
So game six against Philly, closeout game in Philly.
I start, play well.
So we then played the defending Champs Boston Celtics.
And Stan comes to me.
He's like, you're going to chase Ray Allen for the next however many games.
He's like, you have no help responsibilities.
Just chase Ray.
What's that like?
This is Ray.
That's your guy.
Hell.
Okay.
Okay.
But fucking cool, probably.
It was the coolest thing ever.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you're chasing him.
So I'm chasing him.
So, anyways, KG was hurt that series.
Yeah, I remember.
So he's on the bench, but he's still KG.
You know what I mean?
He's still animated, talking.
And it was like, every time I would go by their bench, he's got a comment, you know?
And then I remember one time we were playing him when he was back in Minnesota.
This was like 2015-ish, whatever.
I was with the Clippers, and he tried me.
Like, you know what I mean?
He tried to get me going, try to get me to respond to something, and I didn't.
And then I hit a big shot, and he told Sam Cassell after that game.
He was like, Yeah, I knew that white boy was going to hit something.
I knew I had to try to get him out of the game.
I mean, this KG, man.
So the finals that year, you make it, you play the Lakers.
It's Kobe.
And I mean, it's disrespectful.
He's probably thinking on some level, oh, I got to avoid the Celtics who beat me last year.
KG was hurt.
Kobe Trying To Get Me Going00:09:03
What's that whole situation like?
You're playing the finals for the first time.
You're playing Kobe.
What is that like?
It was interesting.
So I started seven straight playoff games.
And then we played Cleveland in the conference championship.
I didn't play in game one.
I played nine minutes in the second quarter, had seven points.
Did not play any of the other games.
So go into the finals, did not play in game one.
It's a blowout.
I get at the end, and the Lakers filled in and take his starters off.
So Kobe's still out there.
So I'm guarding him at the end of this game, and I hit a three, and I think I got like, I'm going to be not generous, but factual here.
I think I got two stops against Kobe late in the fourth quarter.
They're going to win the game, two stops.
But it was like, I battled him.
You know what I mean?
Felt good about it.
So then I'm like, oh.
So then I played in game two.
We lose.
We go down 2-0.
I don't play in game three.
Game four, I play a lot.
Game five, I don't play until the end of the end of the game in the fourth quarter.
So it was a very like up and down thing.
I always tell people this.
It wasn't like a highlight because we lost and it fucking hurt so bad and it was the closest I ever got.
But truthfully, like the high point of my career was getting to guard.
I guarded Kobe Bryant in the NBA finals.
Yeah.
There's like, you know, I have multiple pictures saved of like me and him.
They're pictures of him and I'm in the background.
But it's like, that's something that, you know, my grandkids, for sure.
Yeah, that's how they're going to be.
Greatest player you've ever played against?
You're going to put, you're going to put it there?
I'm really curious.
He's the greatest player I ever guarded.
Like I had to guard.
I didn't have to guard LeBron.
Right.
I didn't necessarily have to guard Steph.
Right.
Yeah.
But those three guys.
Yeah.
And I'll put Katie in there too.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Those are the, those are the four.
Those are the four.
Yeah.
And did you feel like when you're going up against him outside of natural gifts, extreme preparation?
Did you feel like he just knew what was happening on the floor at all points in time?
Kobe?
Yeah.
I've told this story once before.
So my senior year of college was the first year that they did a pool for USA basketball.
They do this now all the time.
They say there's 40 names or 25 names, whatever it is, that are being considered for these 12 roster spots.
For at the time, it was the 06, it was world championships.
So me and Adam Morrison get named as pool players.
That first summer, I had a hernated disc at L5S1.
So I didn't do summer league.
I didn't do USA basketball, but I got to go out and watch.
The next summer, because I didn't win, they had to qualify.
So this was like a 12-day training camp prior to qualifying.
So I got to spend time around everybody.
Two stories from that.
Number one, first day I get there, I land at whatever, noon Vegas time.
I hit up Coach Collins and Coach Wojo, who are helping Coach K out.
And I said, I need to get in the gym.
So I get in the gym.
Coach Dawkins comes.
He looks haggard, like he looks exhausted.
I'm like, JD, what the fuck's going on?
He's like, Kobe, man, he had me in here at 6 a.m.
He was in here for three hours.
He was working on the counter to the counter to the counter.
And he had to make 10 shots in a row.
Like, this was the type of dude.
All those stories about Kobe being a psycho worker.
Yeah.
They're all true.
Yeah.
So that was cool.
End of the first practice comes and Kobe is like, hey, do you want to shoot?
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'll shoot.
And at the time, I'm thinking he wants to shoot with me because he's being a good guy.
Yeah.
And then we shoot like 15 minutes into it.
I realize he's watching how I shoot.
Watching how I'm catch the ball, watching my footwork.
Wow.
He's trying to pick something up.
And I'm not saying like, oh, he's picking up, but he was just always trying to learn.
He was always trying to get.
Oh, I was thinking to defend you.
I thought he was trying to demoralize you.
Like, you think you could shoot me?
He was watching.
No, he was watching my form.
Yeah, I had a reputation from Duke.
Like, he was literally watching to try and pick something up.
And do you think that he caught anything?
No, probably not.
Probably not.
I wasn't that good.
I wasn't that good.
One of my favorite parts of the Redeem team documentary is when everybody's talking about, you know, Kobe told everybody, you know, we're up at six in the morning.
Everybody's like, so we started getting up at six more.
We're working out.
And then it cuts to Mellow.
And he goes, I'm going to be honest.
I ain't waking up at six in the morning.
Bosch and D. Wade have told the story where they all go out.
They all go out.
They come back.
They get back to the hotel.
Kobe's like, they're back at 6 a.m.
He's at the breakfast table with ice on his knees because he just got done working out.
Yeah.
This is fucking psycho shit.
Are there any people that can excel in the NBA at that level without an extreme work ethic?
No.
You just can't do it.
No.
Right.
No.
So like, explain what you're saying.
Braun and I were, Braun and I were talking about this on episode one of our show, Mind the Game.
Also, if you're not going to be able to do that, no, no.
It literally is because if you haven't watched it, it is the best podcast out right now.
If you are a casual fan of basketball, you will be obsessed.
And if you're obsessed with basketball, forget this is everything you want.
They're not trying to water down the game.
There are two basketball nerds geeking out over basketball and don't give a flying fuck if you understand it or not.
And I actually like what you did in the beginning where you explained a few of the plays.
I thought that was really important.
And then bringing it out during it was very helpful.
You get the graphics.
Love that.
Because I'm showing replays.
I saw a social clip and it didn't have it, the little clip I saw.
You know what's funny?
It was the only thing we couldn't find something for after the fact.
We found it on WNBA and we found it in college basketball.
Because that coverage of the baseline out of bounds, we couldn't find it in the NBA.
It's interesting.
And now people have posted shit on like, and like, this was the Thunder in 2019.
Motherfucker, I couldn't find that.
But I remember seeing that clip before I watched the episode going, oh, it'd be so nice if they had like graphics or something so we would understand.
And I remember, and then the beginning of the episode, you're explaining these few plays.
Anyway, it's fucking awesome.
I'm sure all of you have already watched it.
If not, go watch it.
And they're continuing to release episodes.
So you were sick.
Anyways, the only reason it popped in my brain is because we put the social clip out today where he talks about this.
Like the idea of not of like being elite in the NBA and not working to an extreme level, right?
It's impossible.
And the thing he says, which I laughed at, and I think it's hilarious, is he said, what does discipline mean?
Discipline means you sacrifice loved ones.
Yo, that was crazy.
But it's like, it's actually, I thought what you said was great too, which is like, you're like, I've said to my wife and family, this is a selfish endeavor.
I had so much guilt over that.
And my wife, like, I'm traveling all season.
Yeah.
I'm traveling all season, right?
We have 41 road games, playoffs.
I'm locked in.
There's a time I had to guard James Harden a lot when I played for the Clippers and he was on the Rockets.
And we had a Sunday ABC game and her family was in town, her parents and her aunt.
And we went to this little Mexican place in Manhattan Beach.
And I was fucking zoned out.
Of course.
Kimberly Martin in the green room today.
I was zoned out thinking about what am I doing with my footwork when James goes to this move, right?
I'm thinking about this shit.
We get home.
Chelsea's like, where the fuck were you at dinner?
And I was like, I'm literally thinking about guarding James Harden tomorrow.
I'm sorry.
I couldn't be there.
So not only when I was in season, when I wasn't like on the road, I wasn't there all the time.
Right.
And so I had this tremendous sense of guilt.
And I found this quote about, you know, striving.
Striving for greatness is the stupidest thing, but it wasn't the quote.
But it's like, that is a selfish pursuit.
And I had to like accept it and live with it.
Yeah.
And the people that love you also have to accept it.
Yeah.
And Chelsea has.
Thank God.
Yeah.
Thank God.
It is, but it's a good perspective to have because it's very easy to like flip it and frame it as, hey, I'm a provider and that's all I do.
And it's like, no, no, no, we do this for ourselves too.
Yeah.
And the people that love us understand that it, you know, feeds our souls as well.
And we also happen to provide a pretty awesome life and that's great.
People benefit.
But once you got that, that 23 million from the 76ers, you could have taken off a little bit, but you're like, fuck it, send me to Dallas.
This is my problem in life.
It's a good thing and a bad thing.
Okay.
So I was very routine oriented and it wasn't just the routine of like, oh, this is how I'm going to put my socks on.
I meant the work.
The work was very routine.
And so what happened throughout my career is this is my baseline level of work.
And once it became manageable, this is my baseline level of work.
And once it became manageable, this is my baseline.
Switching Up When Things Go Wrong00:03:28
And the same fucking thing is happening right now.
I can see it in media.
I got three podcasts.
It's like, like last year, I added a second show on Monday.
I started calling games full time.
It was a little bit of a trip.
And then I got to the point I was like, okay, I figured out how to manage this.
And all of a sudden, it's like, all right, let's do a LeBron show.
And it's, it's, I don't think there's anything beyond this for me.
I can't.
I don't know if I could add anything.
This is but at the same time, you're filling your plate.
I imagine you're not the guy who's just going to be able to sit back, relax, and sip a men jeweller.
You need a cook.
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Changing How Basketball Is Analyzed00:07:43
Oh, yeah, on that note, I want to tell you this while we're on air.
I'm not being hyperbolic.
I think you are truly changing the way basketball is analyzed.
I think a lot of it before was guys kind of like me who are not really athletic, just saying things.
And then to have a basketball player who played at a high level wasn't just a catch and shoot guy, but then talking about like unapologetically, here is what my opinions are at the highest level.
I think it sets a precedent now for what this starts to become: basketball analysis.
Maybe sports analysis.
And I'm not being hyperbolic.
I really think you are changing the trajectory of what a sports analyst is.
That's really interesting because before, maybe the basketball guys weren't skilled at the analysis part and the just speaking on camera part.
The communication part.
Yeah, the communication part is hard.
It's an art, also, right?
And people are doing that, you know, dedicating their whole lives to do it.
But now you have an expectation where not only should you be able to communicate effectively, you better have also played the game.
Yeah.
I want to respond to what you just said.
And I appreciate that.
And it's like, truly, I mean this.
It means something to me to hear you say that.
It doesn't mean a lot.
It just means.
No, no, it does.
It does.
Because you recognize, I think, what is important to me.
I don't, I want to be clear on this, though.
I don't want to change anything.
I want to fill a void.
Because there are always going to be people that want to be entertained in a certain way.
Sports is an escape.
Fandom is an escape.
And that's important.
Like, how am I taxed as an NBA player?
I'm taxed as an entertainer.
I know what I'm providing.
Fandom is part of people's identity.
It's an escape.
And in some ways, sports media is that too.
So I'm not trying to change anything.
I'm trying to fill a void.
And it's interesting.
When you first came on the air, I remember thinking, oh, this has been missing.
And now I'm looking at you and like, oh, I don't know.
It's not a Pandora's boxing only parallel I can think of, but like now that we've seen this.
Maybe there's a just, maybe there's another way to add to the ancillary coverage of sport.
Yes.
And the ancillary way we talk about sports.
It kind of feels like when Tony Romo started announcing and he started like breaking down the game a little bit more and less just like trying to entertain.
And that's what I feel.
And he was like guessing plays.
And it was really exciting to watch because he'd be right.
And the difference here is when you hear guys who comment on sports like broadcasting, they will say Roma seems to have gotten lazier, for lack of a better word.
I don't think anybody's ever going to say that about you.
It's constant prep.
It's constant knowing the game in and out and just like obsession.
How do NBA players go broke?
They don't anymore.
Is that right?
Why is that?
I'd be shocked, bro.
I'd be shocked.
Tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me.
All right.
So I'll tell you how it happens.
Happened more.
So I don't know what the average, but during my career, the average NBA career was like four and a half years, roughly.
Okay.
So if you play four and a half years, that means you're not getting to a real second contract.
You're likely making $750, $1.2, $1.5.
Maybe you get an exception, $2.9.
Okay.
So you've made $8 million over four and a half years.
Let's call it you've made $10 million over five years.
All right.
You've got $5 million to spend.
You're in the NBA.
You're going to get a nice car.
You're probably going to buy a nice house, but you're going to take care of your parents.
Before you spend another dollar, you're like, you got to pay your agent.
Right.
So you're, you're now, that, how is that supposed to last you the rest of your life?
Yeah.
There were guys that I played with that I felt at the time, oh, you played 10 years and you made $35 million.
All right, do the math on that.
Do the math on that.
Add in the spending.
Add in the spending.
That's how it happens.
Like my financial advisor told me that from day one.
Right.
It's all about spending.
It's not all about the intake.
It's out the outtake too.
It's what you go spend money on, right?
Now, the reason I say it's just not going to happen as much now is, have you fucking seen these contracts?
Yeah, they're making big money.
Yeah.
Even the rookies.
What's a rookie contract?
They changed the rookie scale.
Okay.
They changed the rookie scale.
So like my rookie contract was four years, 8.9, which was, I mean, I was broke.
We did not have money.
That was a shitload of money, right?
Very grateful for every dollar I made.
The 11th pick now, I don't know the exact number.
He's probably making 20.
Okay.
So even with reference, most of my career, the mid-level exception was around $5 million a year.
And now.
Which was like, you're a rotation player.
Yeah, yeah.
What is it now?
The average.
It's 12 and a half.
So a max contract.
Think about coming out of the lockout.
Coming out of the lockout, there were a few guys that were on their rookie deals that went and signed a max contract, right?
And it was like four years, 58.
Vince Carter and Chauncey Phillips when you're signed max contracts, four years, 64.
Jalen Brown just signed a max contract, five years, $304 million.
There's a difference.
Wow.
Okay.
So even those guys that are just getting that rookie deal are probably making life-changing money.
Cyan Williamson, number one pick.
He's going to make $44 million on his rookie deal.
Four years.
Wow.
And if you get to that second contract, forget it.
But you, it was your third or your fourth that where you actually really made money.
I did pocket watch in here?
Yeah.
Son, I got the notes.
I got the notes because I know about the big deal was.
So I did a three-year deal with Chicago that was good money.
I did a four-year deal with L.A. that was good money.
Those were both around like six or seven a year.
Yeah.
You know, and Philly.
And then I did another one-year deal with Philly.
And then I did a two-year deal with New Orleans.
What did you get for yourself when you did the when you got that Philly deal?
Because I know that that's a nice little special thing.
You have to get yourself something nice.
That was 2017.
Yeah.
For like five years, I was obsessed with vintage watches.
Ooh.
Obsessed.
Okay.
Okay.
Like I'm an obsessive deep diver person.
Yeah.
So I like, I collected whatever.
I had one point I was like, am I a dealer?
Am I a watch dealer?
Is that okay?
What'd you get yourself?
So I'll tell you.
So 2017, my parents were fucking stressed to the nines.
They'd been retired for a few years, but like not enjoying it.
So I called them up to New York.
I had all my, I'm one of five.
We'd all the siblings come in.
And we're basically like, pick a city where you have grandkids.
So you can live in New York, you can live in Denver, you can live in Raleigh, but you got to pick a city.
I'm going to buy you a house and I'm going to, I'm going to, you know.
Take care of it.
Yeah.
I'm going to take care of you.
Take care of it.
So that's essentially what I did with not all the money.
And I thought you were going to tell us a watch story.
Didn't sell the watch story.
I didn't have a car when I moved to New York.
Yeah.
Because I had like a deal where I had a free Tahoe.
So I had this Tahoe and I moved to New York.
I'm like, I have a Tahoe in New York.
So I gave it back to the dealership in L.A.
And I get to New York and I'm like, what's the cheapest nice car I can lease?
This was after I signed my deal.
I've got to get a Range Rover sport.
So I'm driving that to Games River.
Are you driving to Philly?
I forgot.
You lived in New York.
You got the Valet guys, the valet guys at the arena.
Ben's pulling off in his shit.
I think you're driving yourself.
Well, it's not going to have a license.
But everybody's got like nice cars.
And I remember them saying to me, like, why don't you have a nice car?
I'm like, it's a Range Rover sport.
It's a nice car.
How did you not let the money affect your desire to be great?
Giving Back A Free Tahoe00:15:19
Like, have you seen that with guys where they make that first check and they go, let me kind of, let me coast a little bit?
I found a great quote at one point in my life.
It's so corny.
I'm going to say it anyways.
You've never arrived.
You're always becoming, right?
This idea.
I remember there were guys.
So my McDonald's All-American game was in Madison Square Garden.
First time I ever played on national television, right?
I remember being there and getting the sense, like everybody, all everybody was talking about, like, I'm going to the league.
I'm going to the league.
I'm going to the league.
That was not my mindset.
My mindset was like, I want to destroy these motherfuckers this week.
And then I got the Capitol Classic next week in DC.
I want to destroy them.
I want to get ready for Duke.
There was never like this sense of, I've made it.
Even like late Mike, there was a paranoia.
You know what I mean?
I'm sure you feel.
A paranoia about what?
You guys don't feel that?
No, no, we might.
We might.
Just explain what you're saying.
A paranoia that somebody's going to take your shit.
Yes.
Yeah, That everything you work for isn't really going to work out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't want to call it imposter syndrome, but there's a like I think I think people that are just like, I want to be, I want to be great at this thing.
Yeah.
It's, there's, I guess what?
There's a lot of people that want to be great at basketball.
There's a lot of people.
And, you know, young guys would come in every year.
There's 30 first round picks.
There's 30 second round picks.
There's guys coming over from overseas.
You're like, all right, my, my job, like, everybody wants my job.
I'm going to, I'm going to have to do everything I can to keep it.
It wasn't a, it wasn't a, I wanted to make money.
Don't get me wrong.
Is it hard to separate?
I wanted this suit.
But is it hard to separate that?
Like, you have to be on a team.
You have to congeal.
You have to believe in these guys.
They have to fight for you.
They have to support you.
But at the same time, their ability to provide for their families could be affected by you.
And your ability to provide for your family could be affected by them.
They're trying to come for your spot.
Can you ever really like love one another and really get on the same page?
There's a, there's a, that's always underlying in professional sports.
I think, um, particularly in, I really believe this, particularly in basketball.
Um, you know, baseball, you bat every nine times.
It's, it's, you play a position.
You're specialized.
You don't know when a guy's going to hit a grounder to the shortstop, right?
Pitchers, they pitch every five days.
Football, same sort of deal.
I'm sure there's internal competition for a position, but again, there's a job that the left tackle has to do.
There's a job that the tight end has to do.
In basketball, it's like everybody has a job for sure, but it requires a lot.
Soccer's a similar thing.
It requires a lot.
And typically, the people that score the most get the most, right?
There's a finite amount of resources.
So it's always underlying.
But I never felt like, at least the locker rooms I was in, there was this competition to like, if I get this, you don't get this.
I never felt that.
Really?
There was never anybody coming for your spot.
When you're starting with the Clippers, you never felt, well, I guess Jamal would be the one coming in.
But like, there was never at any team where you were starting to get more minutes and you were taking them, quote unquote, from somebody else.
My first year in Philly, we made the conference finals.
I was the second leading scorer on the team.
And we, our five-man starting lineup had the best, it was the best five-man starting lineup in the entire NBA that year.
In terms of like net rating per 100 possessions or whatever.
And they come to me my second year and they said, we want to start Markel Foltz and have you come off the bench.
And I said, okay, that's fine.
No.
No, because I. Because you just made 23 million.
No.
No, it wasn't that at all.
It was, it was like, I remember Brett Brown, he got like a six-minute recording from Manu Ginobly talking about Manu was talking.
It was to me.
Manu was talking about his emotional experience of pop telling him he was going to come off the bench and not start.
And we got done with the recording.
I was like, I love Manu.
He's one of my favorite players ever.
I was like, Brett, you didn't have to do that.
I literally don't care.
That's kind of nice.
Because I knew, no, because I knew like I was going to, I was going to play 30 minutes a game.
I was going to get two-man action with Joelle.
I was going to be on the break with Ben Simmons doing catch and shoot threes.
Like, it was like, I mean, Ben.
Why do I, I don't care about fucking starting.
It was important at one point in my life to be like, I'm a starter in the NBA.
Yeah.
Once that happened, I didn't fucking care.
Okay, so once you check that off, that wasn't there.
Okay.
Coach K.
Oh, yeah.
Exceptional.
My understanding is exceptional leader.
That's what I've been told by people.
Maybe not the X's and O's or offensive genius like Mike D'Antoni, but in terms of his ability to get people on the same page and lead, exceptional.
Was that your experience with him?
Yes.
Okay.
And what makes him so exceptional?
I would say two things about, I say three things about coach.
Number one, my dad is like my hero.
Coaches the next guy.
And then it's like everybody else.
And I've been around some fucking phenomenal people and had some great mentors and some great coaches.
But those two guys, they're just, they're special.
Second thing is I never saw him have a bad day.
Did he make mistakes?
Sure.
He made mistakes like a substitution or a game plan.
Like he made mistakes, but I never, he put every single thing into every day.
Wright Thompson wrote this article on him during his last season.
It's this notion like coach would light himself on fire.
And we all saw that.
We all saw that.
We get back from Blacksburg, Virginia after a loss, and we have a two-hour meeting at 3 a.m. in the morning and come to practice the next day.
Coach was in here at 6 a.m. watching film.
You know, he went home, showered, and said hi to Mickey, said hi to his dogs, came back.
Like he was fully invested at all times.
It's an incredible lesson to learn when you're 19 years old, what that looks like.
And I got to see it.
The other thing I would say is like when people talk about him, the good qualities, the leadership qualities, the communication, the motivation qualities, they're all true in Mensome.
Like they're all true.
And how would he motivate you?
Did he lock in specifically to a part of your personality and coach you in a unique way?
There were certain guys that required like a little nudging.
I was not one of those guys, but I still got tested a lot.
And sometimes it was just like a word.
You're being catch and shooty.
No, you're being this.
A bitch.
Yeah.
Like that's.
Oh, really?
He would use curse words.
No, I mean, not like, I'm not using that word, but like, playing like a push today.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or something.
It was like that.
It was like that.
Like, I remember one time you're being a brat.
I was like, fuck, you're a fraud.
You're an entitled prick.
Like, it was stuff like that.
So he would play into what he thought maybe your insecurities were.
And then some of that came from Coach Collins too, but I, you know, they obviously talked.
So it's like, yeah, it was just like that stuff.
You know, the worst thing that any coach has ever said to me was came from Coach K.
And it was after my sophomore year.
Really struggled that year.
Wanted to quit.
That was like the height of like, everybody hates JJ.
Yeah, everybody hates me.
Tried to quit in December.
My sisters talked me out of it.
Really struggled second semester.
I played well for most of the season, but I really struggled, started taking antidepressants, started seeing a therapist.
And I was a fucking knucklehead.
I was out.
I was like living the frat life and trying to play Duke basketball.
And like they knew that this was happening.
So the season ends.
So for four straight Saturdays, he made me come in at 8 a.m. to meet with him.
And in one of those meetings, we lost to Yukon in the final four that year.
And in one of those meetings, he said to me, we didn't win a national championship because you weren't worthy of being a champion.
And that fucking crushed me.
And it changed my life also.
How?
No coach could ever say that about me again.
In that you are always prepared, always dedicated, great teammate, all that stuff.
Now, does Coach Kay know, this is what I'm assuming, he knows that you have the constitution to handle criticism like that and that that is a motivator.
Whereas some people that might kind of crumble down.
I think that's one of his gifts.
I think that's one of his gifts.
Is to what measure his character?
No, no, just like knowing what is required with each player.
I coach my kids' traffic team.
And it's some of that is like, I can talk to this kid this way.
I can coach kid this.
It's not just like verbal confrontation.
It's how you coach a kid, trying to figure out how they're motivated, what their triggers are, like getting them to get buy-in, like all that stuff.
He just, he has a gift with figuring that out for each individual guy.
That was part of his gift, I think.
Would he like, would he set aside time to figure out each one of you?
So there would be non-basketball activities.
You guys would just meet in the office.
Like what?
Two meetings that stand out.
As soon as I got on campus, I just turned eight, just turned, yeah, I just turned 18 years old.
And he met with every freshman.
We were doing summer school before our freshman year.
And he had me in there and he said, what do you hope to accomplish at Duke?
That's the framework.
So he holds on to that.
Going into my second year, we had the same sort of meeting.
What do you want to do this year?
And I had written down these goals.
I tell him the goals and he goes, and what exactly have you done this summer to accomplish that?
Like, I think going back, we're going to go full circle here.
Going back to high school, I always practiced and I always worked.
I didn't miss games.
Like, I was always in it.
Going back to high school, because it was easier, there was this, it was wrong to think this way, but it's the truth in high school.
It's like, well, I'm going to grow.
I'm going to get stronger.
I'm going to, you know, get a new level of testosterone.
And I'm going to be better than I was last year.
And I'm going to be better than I was the year before.
And then it's, and then you get to your senior year, like, okay, I'm really good.
I'm better than I was as a freshman.
And the older you get, it just doesn't work that way.
Yeah.
You step up a level of competition.
And it's like, so, you know, I had a good freshman year and my mindset was like, I did what they asked me to do, but I didn't do extra.
I didn't go above and beyond.
Here's a conditioning.
Okay, I'll do the conditioning workout, but I didn't try to win the conditioning workout.
That's the difference.
And so once I, and it was really between my sophomore and junior year, once I got that in my brain of like, what are you willing to do that no one else is willing to do?
Okay, now I can like actually write down some things on a piece of paper and try to go accomplish that.
What did you write down that year?
I never wrote down another goal in my life.
Why?
Why would I?
I can't control the goals.
I really believe that.
Like I learned like you can't, I can control what I can control.
And that is the work.
That is my approach.
That is my preparation.
I can control how I interact with people.
I had like a couple blow-ups in the NBA.
I joke all the time with like people.
I'm like, NBA is so competitive and so high stress.
Everybody should be allowed two blow-ups easier.
You know what I mean?
What were your blow-ups?
So like, I just, I just remember like a couple of them.
There was one that I had in Milwaukee and one that I had in my last year with the Clippers.
And both were with coaches, honestly.
I don't think I ever had a blow up with a teammate.
I certainly like certain teammates, we would be direct with each other, but it was never, never like a blow-up.
The coach in Milwaukee, I was guarding Ben Gordon, and they were running a dribble handoff on one side, and the big would dribble handoff with him.
And he turned the corner, and it's Ben Gordon.
I can't go underneath the dribble handoff because he's just going to shoot a three.
He's got an insane shooter.
So I would chase over the top.
And obviously I'm chasing.
So I'm behind him now.
The big wasn't providing help and he scored a couple of times on floaters.
So we go to a timeout and the big was Josh McRoberts, who I played with the Duke, insane passer.
So they're like, top lock him, which means basically get on the high side of him, deny him from coming off the dribble handoff.
And I said to him, but he's just going to back door and get a layup.
why would I play the defense that way?
And that led to one thing to another and I blew up and I regret that.
I do regret that.
And then Brennan O'Connor, who's one of my favorite coaches I've ever had, we tried to implement a defensive coverage against the Pistons mid-game that we'd never practiced before.
Yeah.
And we went over it in film afterwards.
It didn't work in the game.
It's actually a good concept.
We just never practiced it.
And so I was kind of like, when you're unsure in the NBA on coverage, you're going to get fucked.
Like the split second you hesitate, you're done.
So we talked about it in the film session the next day.
And I like pushed back a little bit on the coverage and one thing led to another.
And then he said to me, just shut the fuck up and do your job.
Whoa.
And that was very hurtful to me because I'm like, that's all I do is my job.
And I just, I went ballistic.
I blacked out.
I don't know what I said.
I went and sat on the bus while everybody else shot around for 30 minutes.
No way.
Yeah.
And have you spoken to the coaches since?
Well, Jim, Jim, I never really came across again.
I would always be friendly with him.
That was Jim Boyle, not the coach from Chicago, but Jim, who was the older guy.
He ended up going to Cleveland with T. Lou.
It was fine.
Things happen.
It's all good.
Brennan O'Connor, every time I see him, we joke about it.
About it.
Oh, yeah.
He calls me Bubs because I called everybody Bubs because of white chocolate.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason Williams is the man.
Who's the best player leader that you played with?
Someone who in the locker room congealed the whole group where you're like, I'll fucking go through a brick wall for this guy.
So CP was a CP was a great leader.
Really?
He had a very direct style of leader.
I thought everybody hates him.
No, he had a very direct style of leadership.
And so that was he does have that rep. Yeah, yeah.
That people don't like playing with him.
They hate it.
Honestly, probably the two best guys, and they were very influential for me for how they led, was early in my career, I had Rashard Lewis and I had Jameer Nelson.
And those guys for me were like the best.
And what did they do that inspired you?
Jameer was a connector.
So Jameer was big on team dinners.
He would have everybody to Philly for a week.
He would set up paintball.
He would set up a Phillies game.
We'd go out and practice with the Phillies.
He was just like a connector.
So it was that idea of we're on a team.
Let's be friends.
It's a very simple thing.
Coaching About Timing And Situation00:08:34
And we had that probably in high school, but you don't necessarily have that in the NBA and professional sports.
So he was like a connector.
Richard, it's funny because I talked with Ray about this on the podcast, but like Richard learned how to work from Ray.
I learned how to work from Richard.
I'll never forget Rashard Lewis.
First day he shows up after he signs at the time the biggest contract in the NBA.
800 million, 70 years.
100 six years, 223 million.
Keep pocket watching.
Yeah.
We got it.
It's the only thing we can do.
No, but he, but he, um, I'll never forget.
Like, I'm, again, I'd been around the league one year, and he had that mentality that I talked about, like, where it's like, it's not like, I didn't arrive.
I didn't be, I didn't, you know, I didn't make it.
I still got to do the work.
Yeah.
And I'm watching him work out and he's like hour and a half, full lather, working on every single part of his game, comes back the next day, does it again.
And that's how he was the whole time I was his teammate.
There's like a consistency to him.
And I think the best leaders are consistent.
Consistent.
The same guy every day.
Best compliment I ever got as an NBA player.
And I really mean this.
Philly, my second year there, Philly wrote an article about, I don't remember the angle of the article, but there was a quote in there from Jimmy.
And he was like, I love being JJ's teammate because he's the same guy every day.
And I was like, fuck.
That's dope.
And in an incredibly chaotic environment like the NBA, having that consistency is probably amazing.
You don't know if you're getting traded.
You don't know if you're getting minutes.
You don't know the defense they're throwing at you.
But there's a guy every single day who's going to show up and get to work.
And that's probably helpful for a coach, too.
Jimmy Butler, what makes him different?
He was like not a highly drafted player.
Second run, I want to say.
And now he's.
What makes him different?
I mean, watching just his mentality seems different than everyone else's.
He has a constant chip on his shoulder, and he's incredibly intelligent.
And he has a real belief in self.
He has a real belief in self.
Yeah.
It's like unbreakable.
Yeah.
It's unbreakable.
Yeah.
You mentioned you regret blowing up on those two coaches.
Do you regret the low blow up you had with Doc?
I regret the tone.
Not anything you say.
No.
I mean, what I said is what I believe.
Like, I don't have, there's not an agenda with that.
My job is to comment on the NBA.
And that's one of the biggest stories in the entire NBA ecosystem this year.
I was just making a point.
It's like what had happened since he got the job.
Even that morning, I'm driving into work and there was something in there about him, you know, basically taking credit for the James Harden trade.
And it was like, I just was like, hmm, interesting.
And then they played the sound, and I was like, hmm.
And then Shannon didn't say anything.
Stephen Hayden didn't say anything.
I was like, hmm.
I regret the tone.
You filled the void.
The tone seemed too personal, and I regret that.
Okay.
And there was no person.
And Doc, I assume, would get it.
He was a commentator as well.
You have to have something to say.
Yeah, I've talked to him since.
Okay.
It's all good.
Oh, sorry.
Well, when do we see you coaching?
I know that we got to wrap this up, but when do we see you coaching?
Is that of any interest to you?
It is of interest.
I'm not putting any timeframe on it.
But that is something that gives them the opportunity.
It will happen.
The one thing I'll say, like, so when I retired, it was very difficult.
I think for any athlete, you can have a secure sense of self and a secure ego and a secure identity.
It's inevitable that what you do becomes part of that identity.
Of course.
And so letting go of that, I'm not being hyperbolic here.
It is a fucking death.
Yeah.
It is a death.
It's very hard for me to let go of that.
And my therapist that I talk to now, he was very helpful in getting, I knew I wanted to retire, saying the words, I'm retiring, I'm done.
That was, I couldn't do it on my own.
And so we talked about it.
It was a very helpful session.
I was like, okay, I'm ready.
So I did it.
Very next session.
He's like, all right, let's look forward.
But by looking forward, we need to talk about what are the things you loved about playing that you hope to get in the next phase.
And it was competition, performance anxiety, and collaboration, being on a team.
Right.
Fast forward a year, and I realized there was a fourth piece that I loved, and it was particularly like fulfilling at the end of my career in Philly and New Orleans, and that's leadership.
And so when I think about coaching, it's like filling all of those things.
And so I'm not, it's like coaching to me is about timing and it's about situation.
I love what I'm fucking doing right now.
Yeah.
I'm good.
It's going to be hard to pull you out of it.
Yeah.
But the right opportunity, maybe.
I'm going down the rabbit hole right now in this thing.
So it's like, I can't be pulled out right now.
Yeah.
Okay.
Just tell me real quick why retirement was so tough and the immediate sensation after you announce it.
Why it was so tough?
Because I just genuinely loved it.
It's like...
Like, did you stop?
My understanding is that you're still doing drills.
You're still working out.
You're still getting shots up.
No.
My understanding is that you may or may not have a key to a gym out east and you get some shots up with my kids.
With my kids, that's my understanding is that you got guys rebounding for you out east and then you're getting shots up.
I swear, this is what I've heard.
It's not true.
That's not true.
It's not true.
It's not true.
Okay.
The most shots I've ever taken at one time in retirement was like three weeks ago over all-star break.
I took my kids to Disney World for the first time, and the hotel had a really nice outdoor court.
And so that's all they wanted to do.
Once we got back at like 1230, one o'clock, rest afternoon, they would just play.
We're up in New York.
It's freezing.
It's nice out there.
So they're just like, I want to be outside.
I want to play basketball.
So I'm going to go great.
So the first day, they were on one side of the court because they didn't want to do drills.
So I was just like, I'm going to grab a ball.
And I started shooting.
And I probably took 50 shots.
I worked my way out to like the NBA line of the NBA line.
So just inside half court.
But I was like shooting jumpers.
You know what I mean?
And then I woke up the next day and I was like, fuck.
Yeah.
I'm so sore.
And I probably took like 50 shots by myself.
Like that, that was it.
Wait, sorry, Abbot, you said you want to coach.
What player would you most like to coach in today's NBA?
Wow.
Great question.
Wow.
I'm going to actually, I'm going to, you know what, I'm going to, I'm going to go with an easy one for me.
Yeah.
And this, I, hopefully this is non-controversial, but, you know, he was my teammate, and he's also one of the best players in the world.
And to coach in the NBA, you need one of the best players in the world.
It's Luca.
I'm from Dallas.
That's why I was hoping to say Luca.
And, you know, you didn't actually really play for us, but, you know, I didn't.
I didn't.
So you.
I had a fucking partial tear in my Achilles.
What do you want me to do here?
I was saying we're going to use you.
That's all.
So does it heal?
You just had it heal naturally?
No, it's still there.
So basically, I have something called Hagelins in my right heel, which is an overgrown heel bone.
So my heel bone looks like a golf ball.
Whoa.
And so just through wear and tear playing for so long, the bone started pressing into the Achilles insertion.
So when I went down to New Orleans that year, it had been bothering me all fall.
They did like full tendon scans, knees, ankles, all that stuff.
And the guy was like, you have a partial tear in your Achilles.
And so I tried to rehab and I tried to play through it.
I did PRP in New York over all-star break.
That's right before I got traded to Dallas, which is why I didn't join the team for like a week because I was still rehabbing here.
And the PRP didn't help.
And that was part of retirement too, honestly.
They were like, the surgery is not the same as a full Achilles repair, but it is like four to six months.
They literally shave your heel bone down.
Wow.
And then my burst of sac has inflammation.
So they clean up the burst of sac and then repair the shredded part of the Achilles.
But the Achilles part that's torn.
That's part of the reason I don't play pickup, though.
Repairing The Shredded Achilles Tendon00:05:05
Oh, really?
I'm terrified to tear my Achilles or myself.
You can't even play paddle with this.
Oh, I'm giving you money.
Yes, bro.
Half court, one-on-one.
No, I'm not going to do this to you.
I've already taken out one guy's ankle.
You know, every guy from Duke with a busted foot, you know, comes across me and it's a bad news.
Disrespect.
Guys, I've other worked it in.
How did the pod with LeBron come to fruition?
Yeah.
And is it intimidating to sit across from one of the greats ever and talk the game?
Or do you feel completely comfortable just ever in anything?
It's not intimidating.
I've known Braun now like 24, 25 years.
We met when we were like 15 or 16 at USA basketball camp.
It's funny because I've like never hung out with LeBron.
Like he's not my boy.
Oh, I thought you guys were friends and that's how the podcast was.
No, no, no.
Like we've always had like a mutual respect, great interactions.
Like it's not like I'm not going on vacation with his family.
I'm not going to his house for dinner.
Oh, you don't have a dap with him?
No, it's like we just, there's always been a mutual level of respect for as players.
I mean, like, and so we saw each other in December with the folks on his side and just had a conversation.
And that kind of just got the ball rolling.
So he picked you or you picked him?
Can't say that.
There's no good answer to that.
Really?
Seems like there's a great answer.
Okay, so this thing comes together.
The first episode, we've seen the first episode, which is actually half of what has been filmed.
So there's another episode coming out.
The first episode, do you know you have a hit?
Like when 15, 20 minutes into the conversation, you're going, oh, this is the most fun and this is going to be crazy.
Or, okay, immediately.
Yeah, immediately.
Okay.
Wow.
And by the way, the second episode's like, so we recorded, the plan is to sort of record two episodes at a time.
Yeah.
The second part of the conversation was the part where like you're in the room and you're like floating because it's so pure.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And it's funny.
Jason Gallagher, who's our head of production and has been with us since day one on the old man in the three, since we started this company, he's listened to fucking, I don't even know now, 220 episodes of the old man in the three plus all the shit we do for DraftKings.
He's been in every conversation.
And he texts me afterwards and he's like, dude, he's like, I was floating today.
That's the best shit you've ever recorded.
And I'm like that.
That's fire.
Yeah.
So by the time this is out, episode two will most likely be out.
Yeah, it'll be.
And you list them on all listening platforms, but I would watch the YouTube video.
That's what I'm saying.
That's the video I think is the most instructive.
I think you need to see the graphics to understand what you guys are talking about.
And I like how you're not watering it down.
I love that.
Like, raise the level of intellect of the audience.
Yeah.
Is there anything that surprised you hanging with him?
Like, you guys hadn't hung out a ton before, but now you guys are face to face talking about the game.
Is there anything that surprised you about the way he played December?
Is there anything the way he dissects the game that surprised you?
No, nothing surprised me.
I think what is interesting is, you know, we typically have seen LeBron in a press conference, right?
When he's talking.
And to get him in that setting, it's just like he's awesome.
He's awesome at it.
Yeah, he's awesome at it.
I think you're both excellent.
And yeah, you guys don't have to explain yourself.
When you talk to us about basketball, you have to, it's the same thing if we're going to talk like comedy to anybody.
Like we have to kind of dumb down what we're saying.
You're talking to someone who knows exactly what you're talking about, probably specific plays.
You can reference a play of his from some playoff game that you are watching and he knows the exact play.
There's way less fluff.
And it's really, I think you're going to see a lot more of this in not just basketball, but all avid.
Change the trajectory.
Yeah.
By the way, there's nothing wrong with the sugar.
I want to be like, I was talking about it earlier.
There's nothing wrong with the sugar.
There's nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I'm not against the sugar.
I like sugar too.
I'm on Twitter.
I like the sugar.
Sugar's fun sometimes.
But this is sugar for people.
Sometimes too much sugar becomes toxic.
Right.
Well said.
Yeah.
What are we talking about now?
Just talking about commentators that are super entertaining.
Guys in your sports analyst like on the sports analyst where you're just kind of watching and just saying things.
But that's awesome too.
It's entertaining.
It's so fun.
Like you look at a guy.
It's amazing.
I work with Stephen A.
I was about to say he's incredible.
He's amazing.
And you want that.
I want that.
Sometimes I just want to hear crazy hot takes.
They might be true.
They might not be true.
Who gives a fuck?
I enjoy that as well.
But there is a time and place when you see people who are obsessed with a thing.
It doesn't have to be basketball.
It can be two nerds talking about robots, but they're obsessed with the thing and they're just talking to each other about that thing and they don't care who's listening and that's what it feels like.
Creating The Source Not Just Reaction00:01:11
It doesn't feel like you guys care who's listening.
And because of that, I want to listen.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying.
Are you going to try to bait him into the goat talk about himself?
Literally in the setup, he's like, we're not talking about who the greatest is.
I know, but episode three.
It's a little bit of a drink.
I think the only thing like, you know, there's an element of what has become not only the take industry, but the second take industry.
Everybody's chasing?
No, no, no.
Meaning like the reaction to the take.
Oh, it's all that's that's like, and then there's the reaction to the reaction.
That's all YouTube has become.
I don't want this to be reactionary.
Certainly we'll react to what's happening on the basketball court.
Yeah.
But it's not.
Your phone flyers.
It will be reacted to.
Yeah.
But you want to create the source.
The source material is always better to create than reacting to the thing or reacting to the reaction.