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May 9, 2025 - Epoch Times
48:40
How China's Operating Rooms Turned Into Execution Grounds: Dr. Torsten Trey
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Time Text
Living people are killed for their organs.
Executions were shifted from the courtroom to the operation room.
The first whistleblowers emerged from China with a story that few could believe.
The Chinese regime was killing prisoners of conscience for their organs.
Organ harvesting turned the previous persecution form of torturing to death into a profitable business.
Today I sit down with Dr. Torsten Trey, co-founder and executive director of the non-profit Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting, which just released a special report on the issue.
To kill people on an industrial level, you think of what mindset is that?
We didn't react to it in time, probably because we thought China is so far away.
And a few years later, you are hit by a pandemic that is spread from China.
This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Jan Jekielek.
Dr. Torsten Trey, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.
Well, thank you for having me.
You know, Dr. Trey, this has been a long time coming.
I remember back in 2006 when I first realized that this murder for organs industry in China was real, and I started reporting on it.
There was a small non-profit that began in the same year called Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting, and you were one of the co-founders, and we've interacted in various ways over the years.
Before we go any further, just lay it out for me.
What is this, what you call forced organ harvesting?
Yeah, forced organ harvesting is a practice that actually in 2006 nobody actually would think it could happen.
We created this name.
It was our NGO that came up with this term.
It is the forceful...
Extraction of organs used for transplantation.
The typical way of giving consent before you donate an organ, that has been bypassed.
People are actually killed.
Living people are killed for their organs.
And I think it's fair to say that it only happens in China, because in a large scale it can only occur when the state is kind of promoting this crime.
And it has reached industrial level.
This is arguably the biggest violation of medical ethics in history.
It's unbelievable when you frame it that way.
Well, let's go back a little bit.
Why don't you just tell me where this came from, where this idea to start this non-profit came from, why it was needed, and why in 2006?
I learned from a newspaper, the Epoch Times, that witnesses from China came forward.
They witnessed how in a hospital, in Sujaitun, organs or tissues were harvested from Falun Gong practitioners.
That was so outrageous that it caught my attention.
And just in that month, March of 2006, there were actually three people coming forward, a reporter, The wife of a surgeon who took corneas from Falun Gong practitioners and an anonymous military doctor, veteran military doctor, who added even more details.
It was beyond my imagination.
I could hardly believe it.
And I followed this case.
And then two months later, I saw that the vice president of the European Parliament, Edward Magnum Scott, he went to, he followed that.
Case two, he went to China.
He met with two Falun Gong practitioners who told him that they saw a friend who died in detention who had holes in the body.
And that was another piece of evidence that came together.
Two months later, I heard about the report from David Kilgore and David Meadows, who conducted phone interviews with hospitals in China.
And they indeed recorded that doctors in the Chinese hospitals said they take organs from Falun Gong practitioners because those are fresh organs.
So at that time, this was very shocking.
And I decided to go in July 2006 to attend the World Transplant Congress in Boston.
Thinking, maybe I find some more hints.
So there were, of course, doctors also from China.
And I talked to two of them.
One of them, he was from the Tianjin hospital.
He said, last year they performed 2,000 liver transplantations.
And that was it.
Astronomical number.
So I asked other doctors from other countries.
In Argentina, they performed 200 liver transplants per year.
In Germany, there were, I believe it was 700 transplants per year.
And here we are, just from one hospital in Tianjin, they performed 2,000 liver transplants.
So that was adding another factor to the scope of...
Transplantations that took place in China.
And at last I talked to a doctor who was invited back to China to open a transplant department.
But at that time he was actually just working in a university in Germany and he only conducted transplants on animals.
So I was wondering how come that he was invited back to China to open a transplant department.
And he said there was just this demand to open transplant departments.
And I said, where do all those organs come from?
Because transplantation depends on organs from donors.
And he said those organs are coming from fangong practitioners.
So at that point, and that took all place within half a year, all these aspects, hints and pieces of evidence.
What was really striking was none of these witnesses were Falun Gong practitioners.
And they were all hinting that organs were harvested from Falun Gong practitioners.
So if you want some objectivity, here you have it.
So at that point I decided there must be more investigation and awareness.
And I decided...
Just my voice is not big enough.
If I want really attention, I would need to start an NGO.
And that's how the idea of founding Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting came about.
You know, it might be amazing to people that are listening that a doctor from China admitted to you that these organs were coming from Falun Gong practitioners.
Now the context of this is that...
You know, this was a group that had been demonized and targeted for eradication.
In the words of Jiang Zemin, who had been the dictator at the time and issued the order.
So it's possible for someone to say something like that with a straight face or just imagine, not realize how utterly barbaric it might sound.
I mean, how did you react to that?
Definitely it's barbaric.
It is unfathomable.
And I would think that because of this practice being beyond our imagination, that that was the best way to hide the practice.
When I was discussing this topic with other doctors at medical conferences, they were listening and they were also seeing what data we produce and show.
But at the end, they still said they can hardly believe this is happening because it is beyond what we in the West would think is possible.
It's just beyond our thinking.
So why don't you give me a broad picture of the kind of lines of evidence that exist, and this has developed substantially since 2006, that document the reality of this.
This question of evidence, you know, what evidence you have, this question comes up very often.
If you want to get a short summary of this, there's evidence related to the transplant numbers, evidence related to the organ source, where the organs come from, how they are donated, and then witnesses coming forth.
Over the time, we followed the numbers of transplants, and the transplant numbers in China are just out of proportion.
If you follow the course of annual transplant numbers and compare it with other countries, then you see in China this is almost like a roller coaster.
It goes up, it goes down, it stays on the level for 10 years, it goes up again.
You do not find this type of development in other countries that are based on...
Ethical organ donation.
In other countries, you find a steady, gradual increase of organ donors and then also transplants.
But in China, this seems to be decoupled.
Just recently, in 2020, you see this example that a doctor team wanted to perform a double lung transplant on a COVID patient.
And then just within one day, they said they got the matching lung and performed the transplant.
This is unthinkable in a Western transplant environment.
So it seems like organs are coming from on demand to facilitate transplants on demand.
So the wait time in China is usually just considered between 2 days and 14 days.
It's very typical.
A camera team from Korea, southern Korea, that went with a hidden camera to one of these hospitals.
And they filmed a nurse who was accommodating patients from Korea.
And the nurse was saying, yeah, usually it takes two weeks to get a kidney, but if you pay $10,000 extra, you can get it within two days.
And this is unheard of.
That just because of extra money you pay for an extra fee, you can accelerate the wait time and accelerate it to two days.
So nothing in terms of transplantation numbers is kind of reflecting anything that you see in all other countries in the world.
So this is one part, the transplant numbers, the wait times.
But then also the donor numbers.
We monitored a website where the numbers of organ donations were displayed.
And we monitored this for 18 months, over 18 months.
What we saw is that there was a gradual, very slow increase of registered organ donors.
And then all of a sudden, at the end of 2015, within one day, it increased by 25,000.
Exactly 25,000.
Which is unheard of.
It seems to me to be like an artificial number where it says, "Oh, we just add exactly 25,000, ending with three zeros." Yeah, these registered own owners are real persons, so just the fact that all of a sudden there are exactly a thousand.
Registered donors is unheard of.
And we saw this again in the following year when 88,000 people were added to the so-called registered organ donor pool.
So all of this you don't find in other countries.
With other research you saw that these numbers are more manufactured.
Real organ donors, but the numbers were following a mathematical equation.
A quadratic equation.
I remember reading that paper, like a perfect quadratic equation.
And then with this discrepancy between these large tons of numbers and the lack of organ donors, then the question is, where do those organs come from?
And this is where the witnesses...
So I talked with Falun Gong practitioners who said they were detained for two years and they were blood tested for ten times.
David Meadows interviewed a prisoner who was not a Falun Gong practitioner.
He said he was not blood tested, but he saw that Falun Gong practitioners are blood tested.
So if you hear one witness...
One Falun Gong practitioner saying he was subject to forced medical exams while in detention, while being subject to torture, which itself is already implausible.
If there's one Falun Gong practitioner saying he was medically examined, you can say it's an anecdote.
But if there are hundreds and thousands of Falun Gong practitioners over 20 years who...
Keep repeating this and similar experiences who said that I was threatened.
The policeman said if I don't follow this, they will take my organs.
If you hear this many witness reports, then the anecdote is not an anecdote anymore.
It becomes an evidence.
So if you take all of this together, then you have an overwhelming set.
Of circumstantial evidence.
Each piece itself might not be that strong, but if you put everything together, then you can say there's enough evidence to say something is wrong here.
Obviously, the Chinese Communist regime has been accused multiple times of these practices.
How have they responded?
Well, in one case with Su Jaitun, They didn't respond at all when the claim was made.
They were silent for five weeks, and then all of a sudden they say, oh, now a delegation is being invited.
And of course, a delegation, after five weeks, did not find anything.
So this is typical.
If you have scheduled inspections, for sure you will not find anything.
What China is not doing is it is not allowing...
It is basically denying that this is happening.
If you want, you can compare it with the 1989 student massacre on Tiananmen Square.
The Chinese government says it didn't happen, although there's footage, but it didn't happen.
And same with the forced organ harvesting from Falun Gong prisoners of conscience.
It's also denied that this is not happening.
Why is it the Falun Gong that we're particularly targeted or are?
Well, for once, it is a large group that is detained.
So you have all of a sudden access to a very large pool of organ donors.
Not organ donors, but sources, organ sources.
That's one aspect.
You can also argue that other groups, other prisoners of conscience could also be targeted.
So those are not typically targeted.
It is mainly Falun Gong.
And if you want to look into the reason, then you have to look into 1999 when a persecution of Falun Gong started.
And the Chinese government overnight basically declared Falun Gong as a state enemy.
But it was not the fault.
Of Falun Gong, because nothing has changed in their practice.
But it was just the aspect of, for example, being truthful, which imposed a threat, a perceived threat to the Chinese government.
So at that point, the former head of state, Jiang Zemin, overnight he just...
Single-handedly said this group is now banned and basically has no rights.
Now, the experience with the student massacre showed the Chinese government that it cannot just crack down on a group with high intensity, because then the international community will respond to it.
So they had to come up with a different approach.
So they wanted to...
Destroy this group, Falun Gong, but in a way that it is not raising international attention.
So over time, basically the executions were shifted from the courtroom to the operation room.
Organ harvesting turned the previous persecution form of torturing or torturing to death into a profitable business.
The organs from Falun Gong practitioners could be sold for transplants.
So there was a financial aspect that was used by the Chinese government.
They want to eradicate this group.
They want to destroy.
And what better way could there be than using Falun Gong practitioners as organ source?
You know, I was talking with Ethan Gutmann perhaps half a year ago.
He's one of the researchers who did a lot of really valuable work in basically developing this set of evidence and so forth.
In past years, as the Chinese regime ramped up basically the genocide of the Uyghur people, he's saying that this has become a significant group in recent years.
It struck me as something where, like, if you don't deal with something over years...
It doesn't stop.
It just gets transferred to another group that's targeted for eradication.
Yeah, this is a very typical phenomenon.
If you violate ethical standards and you get away with it, then you get the appetite to go to the next level, to go to the next profitable area.
For example, for the Uyghur group, because Muslims, they don't eat certain...
So you find people from the Middle East who are specifically looking for Muslim organ donors to get the type of organs that they prefer.
China followed this market to open the Uyghur people to serve this group of transplantors who are looking for specific organs.
But we cannot forget that This is a relatively smaller group, whereas the Falun Gong practitioners estimated to have 70 to 100 million people in 1999.
So it's an extremely large group.
And because it is persecuted in the whole country, you have a pool of organs.
Donors that can still serve the transplant hospitals in the different regions.
So we cannot shift our attention to just one group, while the other group that has been subject to forced organ harvesting for 20 years is being kind of sidelined.
This is a very dangerous move.
Do you feel that's happening somehow?
You find in certain organizations...
For example, the World Medical Association came up with a statement, a resolution, where it acknowledges the genocide of Uyghur people.
However, so far Falun Gong, who is subject to this destruction over 20 years, has not been recognized as a victim to genocide.
I followed this very closely, and we think there's an imbalance.
One of the things I wrote about years ago was the inability of people to just accept that human beings do such terrible things.
I was citing Jan Karski, who broke into...
Concentration camps in Poland, Polish noblemen masqueraded as a Ukrainian guard, saw what was happening, got out, went to England, went to the West, to the U.S., tried to tell people.
People wouldn't listen.
Even the Attorney General of the U.S. said, I think famously, it's not that I thought he was lying, it was that I was unable to believe him.
That was, I believe the official line or something close to that.
So how much does this...
Figure into the current state where essentially the Chinese Communist Party has been largely held unaccountable to this in almost any way, with a few exceptions.
I believe that there are several factors that come into play.
One is that the crime is just too unbelievable.
It's beyond what we can fathom.
But at the same time, It is probably also an effect of the effort of the Chinese government to cover it up.
So you can imagine forced organ harvesting, the killing of people for their organs.
This is a serious crime.
It's probably the most outrageous violation of human rights that one can imagine.
Not only you're killing people, but...
You are also using the organs to make profit.
So you can imagine that if this would surface, if this would be reported in the mainstream media, China would have a hard time to stop an international outcry.
So, of course, China tries everything to stop this issue.
To use bribery, to use other influence to stop newspapers from reporting about this issue.
Specifically on this topic of forced over-housing, we have an issue of self-censorship of Western media.
We need to look into this because the crime is just too big to be censored.
It's striking to me that, for example, the Transplantation Society, which is the premier global organization focused on organ transplantation, has either not taken a position or essentially taken a position that mirrors that of the Chinese Communist Party in this.
I mean, I guess the question is, one is, how much has that hurt your advocacy efforts?
And two, what's going on with that?
Yeah, this...
This is a discrepancy that I followed for some time.
On the one side, the Transplantation Society says they are a professional society and they don't have the resources to investigate in China.
On the other side, the Transplantation Society also makes statements that China is on the right way.
On one side you say that you cannot investigate this topic, and on the other side you produce statements that China is developing in the right way.
There are several reports, investigations that are admittedly hundreds of pages long, but I don't know if the Transplantation Society...
Or the leadership in the Transplantation Society has really studied those reports and looked into it.
Well, for example, the China Tribunal, which comes to mind, I think, is the most comprehensive body of evidence.
I believe you testified there.
Briefly tell me, what was that?
What were the conclusions?
And yes, why is the Transplantation Society unaware of the findings?
So the China Tribunal took, I think, about a year to review all the...
Different reports.
They listened to 50 experts in two hearings.
So it was a very objective, independent and thorough review of the evidence.
And they came up with the conclusion that forced organ harvesting takes place in China and that the main victim group are Falun Gong practitioners.
There was a very clear conclusion.
It is striking to me that other medical organizations have not taken this into consideration and said, well, maybe we need to look into this.
Because, again, this is one of the biggest violations of medical ethics and of the medical practice, I believe, in history.
So you cannot go just back to business as usual.
And continue exchange, scientific exchange, and exchange with personnel, with doctors, with China.
There should be some pause to review the evidence.
One thing that strikes me, I just always remember back to where Dr. Jakob Lavi, I think who at the time was the head of the Israeli Transplant Association, He had a patient that told him, I'm going to China to get an organ.
He went, he got it quickly, and Levy recognized there was no way this could be ethical and actually advocated very quickly for laws to be passed in Israel where the state health system wouldn't pay for such transplants, basically discouraging people from doing it, right?
You know, maybe you can tell me, has there been significant response from any country other than me?
Israel is the one that comes to mind right now, but I'm not aware of a lot of examples.
There has been some acknowledgement and response.
The U.S. Congress has passed several resolutions on this topic, acknowledging the forced organ harvesting, the European Parliament as well.
But those are more non-binding.
This is more like a statement, an acknowledgement, but without taking really a responsibility to stop this abuse, to stop this transplant abuse.
It is not strong enough to really send a signal to China and say we are serious on this topic, stop it.
We know it is happening.
It doesn't fit into the international community.
And we observed over time that this is not only happening in governments, but also in organizations, where the information that we provided on this topic is kind of blocked at a certain level.
And this is, I would think, that occurs at the leadership level.
So the members of an organization, they are much more open to the information and willing to take steps.
For example, we approached once the American Medical Association.
We were working together with the Medical Society of Washington, D.C. and we submitted a resolution and the leadership of the American Medical Association was more hesitant.
But then, at one point, the House of Delegates, which are more on the level of the members, they were bringing up this question and said, we want clarity.
Those are the doctors that really want to know what is going on.
The members on the floor, they were really looking into answers.
They wanted answers.
So that's a very typical phenomenon.
The block is happening at the leadership level.
I assume that this is also a reflection of the pressure and the influence that comes from the Chinese government.
It can happen very quickly, where the Chinese government says, do you want to come to our country for certain conferences?
Then don't bring it up.
Do you want to be ostracized from our conferences?
Then don't bring it up.
This can happen very quickly.
I'm going to deviate a little bit here.
I can't help but think this kind of mirrors some of this catastrophic response that, frankly, the world had to COVID.
It's almost like what you're describing kind of set the stage for what we saw happen at a much larger scale affecting a much larger group of people, essentially.
Almost, you know, all of humanity to some extent.
It's a chilling thought.
I don't know if you've thought about this at all.
Oh, yes, yes.
It is interesting.
If you have somebody who's violating ethical standards, just basic standards, and you don't react to it, if you think about it, if the Chinese government is willing to kill people, not only a few, but on an industrial level, Hundreds of thousands, most likely more than a million people over the past 20 years.
You think of what mindset is that?
And if they do this to their own people, what do you think would the Chinese government do to foreigners?
So this is a situation where we didn't react to it in time, probably because we thought, oh, this China is so far away, why should we care?
Why should we care?
And a few years later, you are hit by a pandemic that is spread from China.
So I can't help thinking about this.
That, you know, basically, we as a society allowed for or turned a blind eye to for decades what you describe as the grossest violation of medical ethics in history.
And, you know, over the last few years, we found ourselves In a situation where there are rampant medical ethics violations.
I can't help but wonder if our turning a blind eye didn't somehow influence this current situation where trust in the medical system has been lost to such a huge number of people.
There's an interesting aspect to it.
By being a bystander, allowing China to commit this forced organ harvesting, It is that in the West I think some of our due diligence in ethics has deteriorated a little bit.
And that is a danger, but I would actually say that is also the intention from the Chinese government to...
We've influenced the Western society by making forced organ harvesting like a staple in the transplant field.
So we are risking that our ethical standards are decaying.
So all of a sudden we are facing now this situation with the pandemic that really caught us by surprise, where decades and centuries...
of scientific working have been cast out.
For example, if you have a vaccine, the typical form is that you have to test a vaccine for 10 years, but to make sure that there are no side effects.
This has been not appreciated.
So I wonder if you give a vaccine that you tested half a year, how can you...
Say with certainty that if you give it to children, that it doesn't have effects in 10, 20 years, maybe causing cancer and other problems.
We don't know.
So there's a decay in our due diligence to enforce scientific procedures.
And it is based on...
Appreciation of ethics.
Ethics gives you a good guideline to apply scientific methods.
This is chilling.
I mean, you're basically telling me that this is actually part of the CCP's game here, is to undermine our whole ethical system, which can lead to results like we're seeing here.
I'm in the middle of this, and frankly, I hadn't thought of it that way until this moment.
Yeah, I had many years to think about why the Chinese government is doing this.
And I think to summarize it, you can come up with three reasons.
One is, of course, to...
To become a leader in the transplant field.
Why is it so important?
Because if you are a leader in the transplant field, if you are the most advanced in the transplant research because you have the numbers to produce and you can do research, then you are in the position that you can set standards.
And that's one aspect that the CCP is pursuing, to become a leader so that it can set standards for the transplant field.
Think about it.
Today we would not think that we could take organs from prisoners.
You know, it's unfathomable.
The WMA, the World Medical Association, has condemned this.
But think of that if the...
The Chinese transport market is so big that it can set the standard.
It could even say, no, it is okay if you take organs from prisoners.
So this is something that the Chinese government pursues.
They want to become a leader in the field so that they can set the rules.
Another aspect is that there's, in a way, a side effect that by doing...
By performing false organ harvesting, they know they undermine the Western concepts of ethics and human rights.
And they know that they will provoke the West.
This is predictable.
And they do this because they want to create this kind of chaos in the scientific field, in the transplant field.
So now you have discussions where some doctors...
Some may say you cannot do it, but others say why not?
So all of a sudden we are having a discussion that we didn't have like years ago.
And if you think of the Chinese government is taking advantage of this chaos.
Think of like a fish can only survive in water.
And the Chinese Communist Party, they need chaos in the world to be dominant.
So this is an aspect to it.
A third reason why I believe post-organ harvesting in China takes place and has reached these dimensions is the intention to destroy Falun Gong.
You must have some really low days when you're faced with all these realities.
I mean, I can see you're trying to keep a light heart through all this, but this is very tough.
Tell me, you see hope here?
What's the situation?
Probably the most discouraging for me was when I heard doctors in the West, in the free world, who are taking the side of the Chinese government.
We're trivializing forced organ harvesting.
There was a case where a doctor within 24 hours organized to have two liver, donor livers.
And we would say this is impossible within 24 hours to find two matching livers.
But then the doctor, the Western doctors here in the U.S., he said, why not?
It's possible.
By coincidence, the same two people with matching organs, deceased, and organs were available.
So this is discouraging because in a proverb you can say, if you hear hoof beat, then the first thing that came to your mind is, those must be horses, not zebras.
This is a very common phrase in the medical diagnostic.
It is a reminder that you think of what is most likely.
And it is not most likely that, by coincidence, two people passed away donating two matching organs.
It's probably one of the most painful moments if you see this.
But at the same time, the most encouraging...
Maybe joyful moments were when you talk to other doctors, colleagues, and they understand it and they support you.
One of them, he said he read my book and he couldn't stop reading it.
He was reading the book until 3 or 4 a.m. through the night because he couldn't put it out of his hands.
And he was very supportive.
So those moments are really energizing.
Give the motivation to continue.
I guess you might be talking about the book State Organs, which you edited, wrote a chapter of.
Very valuable book to me, I think, from back in 2012 or something around that time.
I'd recommend it to our viewers.
You've written quite a number of papers.
You've written a couple of books on this.
What would you say is the most important thing you've contributed?
There was one article that was probably most consequential in putting this whole picture together, and that was the article called Genocide Falun Gong in China.
It was the first time that I understood that forced organ harvesting is not an isolated violation of medical ethics, but it had a function, a purpose, and the purpose was to destroy A certain group, in this case, it was the Fangong practitioners, because there's no better way to silence a group of people.
At the beginning, when I was thinking about this topic about, you know, you see the student Masakao that was really obvious to the world in 1989.
And the persecution of Falun Gong that led to the forced organ harvesting, which is not perceived, I thought, what is the difference here?
And then something came up, which I had actually comes from medical school, and this is when we learned about flies, and the compound of the fly has a certain characteristic.
It doesn't have a clear picture, but it can detect motion.
That's why it's difficult to catch a fly.
It catches motion.
If you move fast, it's very difficult to catch a fly.
But if you move slowly, you don't see it.
The fly doesn't see the hand coming towards the fly.
So if you move slow enough, you can commit a crime that nobody is noticing.
So I realized that...
The Chinese government learned from the student massacre and knew they cannot do it in high intensity.
They need to proceed in a slower motion and then you have a cold genocide.
And that is more devastating, I would say, than other forms of persecution because it can happen slowly over years, over 20 years, without actually being noticed because it is...
Too slow to trigger international reaction.
So that really opened my eyes that China is operating in a way that is very planned.
And if you think of a slow-moving destruction and then expand it to other areas in the society, then you see that China is...
It is not seeking confrontation, but it is slowly infiltrating our society and diluting it with the influence where, say, you are at universities where you cannot have forums that are critical of China.
You cannot have this at your university.
And all of a sudden the university finds itself in a situation where it is driven to self-censorship.
Because it doesn't want to lose the thousand students from China.
So this is like a slow-moving influence that is infiltrating everywhere in society.
You find this pattern of the coal genocide, actually, in many areas, in the economy, business, education.
Fascinating.
Of course, we've covered this issue of...
Chinese Communist Party infiltration in the U.S. and in the West and its motives.
We have this new film, The Final War, which just premiered, that talks about a lot of these things and how there's been this slow, 100-year plan to subvert America.
I've never thought of it in the context of this cold genocide they describe, which I remember reading that paper, a very, very powerful piece.
In the face of all this, what can...
This transplant industry is a reflection of incentives.
And doctors earn money from those transplantations.
That's their incentive.
And even Western media might receive incentives by not reporting about this issue.
But then what is the incentive of the Chinese government?
It's not about money.
The incentive is to silence Falun Gong so that they cannot convey their practice and their message, which is based on three principles: truthfulness, compassion, forbearance.
These are good values.
The world would benefit from those principles today, but the Chinese government, the Chinese Communist Party doesn't want the people to know.
So if you want to defeat this purpose...
Of forced organ harvesting, you have to break the silence.
So if the people around us would learn more about Falun Gong, would learn about the persecution, would talk about it, would bring it to the social media, etc., the purpose of silencing this group would be defeated.
One of the things that just strikes me as you're talking here is that, you know, there's this, of course, the first principle that practitioners follow is the truth.
And the way that's manifested is in all sorts of different ways, which the Communist Party really doesn't like.
Like, for example, basically, you know, exposing communism for what is exposing the crimes of the party.
That's one area.
Another one is, you know, whistleblowing around, you know, COVID things.
That was a big one.
A lot of people were...
We're persecuted horribly for doing that.
This is just a couple of examples.
If medicine is not able to stop forced organ harvesting, then what will happen with the medical profession?
The concept of medicine, the goal of medicine, is to help a patient, to save a patient.
But if someone else is being killed...
To provide cure to others, then medicine is at a crossroads.
So I believe that every medical doctor who is taking his or her profession serious need to look into this.
This is not just a topic that should be addressed by transplant surgeons, but by every medical doctor.
Dr. Torsten Trey, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show.
Thank you.
Thank you all for joining Dr. Torsten Trey and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders.
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