The FULL TRUTH About Israel vs. Palestine | Guest: Scott Horton
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DESCRIPTION: The Israel vs Palestinian conflict has taken a very dark turn and the lust for blood on both sides is unnerving. But what’s really going on? Who’s really to blame? Is Israel the bad guy? Is Hamas the bad guys? We will take a deep dive and look at every aspect of this conflict to see the deeper truth of what’s going on
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Well, people have a lot of opinions about what's going on today in Palestine versus Israel conflict.
On one hand, if you aren't completely pro-Hamas and want the Palestinians to wipe the Israelis off the earth, well, maybe you just don't care about the afflicted.
On the other hand, if you don't want Israel to win and wipe Palestine off the earth, then you're probably an anti-Semite.
It seems like in 2023, when you try to play the middle ground, you're never going to win.
But what's the truth of what's actually going on in the conflict today?
And where should you actually hold your opinions?
Our show tonight is basically directed at giving the full truth of what has been going on, what is going on, and what we think will be going on in the conflict between Israel and Hamas in the Palestinian territories.
It is approximately 10:05 p.m. Eastern Time in the United States.
This is Nightly Offensive.
We're not going to be having any flashy music today because this is a very important topic.
If you guys haven't seen this, you know, you see Netanyahu, the leader of Israel, released this footage of the bombing and the striking back of what's going on currently in Gaza, which, of course, is land that we'll be talking about in the lower southwest corner of Palestine or Israel, depending on who you ask.
My guest today is an expert on war and the effects, both good and bad, in the history of this subject.
I encourage you to grab a pen and a piece of paper.
Maybe pull out your phone if you're going to be taking notes, because I'm hoping this is going to be as informative as possible.
It is not the typical episode that we do, but we are going to be going into it.
I'd like to welcome to the show Scott Horton.
He is the director of the Libertarian Institute and editorial director of anti-war.com.
Yeah, so let's just, before we even jump into this, why don't you give us a little background about who you are, what your expertise is about, and why someone like myself would invite you onto a show to talk about such a controversial topic that no one seems to be able to get right.
Well, I'm a libertarian, which means I'm not a partisan.
So I try to be fair.
Obviously, I'm not objective.
I have my own point of view, but I'm not a partisan.
And, you know, basically, I'm just a typical anti-government guy.
And starting at a young enough age, I guess I've never been a leftist or a conservative of any kind or a liberal or any of those things.
I've pretty much always been a libertarian and anti-government.
And I guess I specialize in foreign policy because of the lesson that you can't have a limited republic and a world empire at the same time.
And the reason that our government is so big is first and foremost because of our role as the global hedgeman.
And so if you're going to have a limited government and a free society at home, step one would be to abandon your world empire.
And so that's really been my focus all this time.
I've written a couple of books about it, Fool's Errand about Afghanistan and enough already about the entire war on terrorism.
And basically, I'm just a Ron Paul guy.
Oh, and I've done 6,000 interviews since 2003.
Some, I guess, low hundreds of which have been concerning Israel-Palestine.
And I've been the editor of anti-war.com for about 20 years.
So I wouldn't, you know, I don't have a PhD.
I wouldn't personally claim to be an expert, although people say that about me.
But I do have some things to say about this that I guess, Elijah, the shorter answer to your question would be, I feel like I can fill in some gaps in the narrative, answer some questions for you about who's who and what's going on here that hopefully will help you understand the situation better rather than make it simply more obscure or be just some more cheerleading for one team or another.
And, you know, obviously we're seeing these images come out today of the counteroffensive for the special operation, right?
Which Russia was not allowed to do in Ukraine.
But Israel is fully capable and warranted in doing this as a young child's body likely to cease being taken from the rubble.
And so this is a conflict that's taking real lives in real time.
We're already into the thousands, and I figure this is going to continue to rise.
Before we do talk about this, this show is completely demonetized on YouTube for talking about a lot of things just like this.
In fact, we're not demonetized for breaking or violating any rules.
We were demonetized for covering the events on January 6th under a journalistic license.
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All right, our top story is what's going on in Gaza.
Our guest today, Scott Horton, is an expert on this.
We're going to be talking about the history, the present conflict, where this will head, and what the solutions can be.
Let's get into the show.
Well, a shout out to antiwar.com.
Israel announces a complete siege of what is about to go on in Gaza, saying that they are going to be cutting off the water, the electricity, even access in and out of the place.
So this is absolutely crazy.
Before we go into the history of anything that was going on, can I just bring up the obvious of what's happening here?
Is this a normal precedent for a nation when attacking another territory or occupied territory to be cutting off access to water, electricity, and the basic necessities to live as they assault like this?
Is this a standard in U.S. or in global policy, or is this something that's different?
Well, certainly in Iraq War I, America attacked the waterworks.
And in the American-backed Saudi and UAE war against Yemen that Obama started in 2015, they certainly attacked the water works there.
I think the real lesson for us here is the way that they say it, right?
We're not talking about an airstrike or something.
They shut it off.
What does that tell you?
That tells you right away, Gaza is not any kind of sovereign territory.
In fact, you had trouble defining it there a second ago.
What is it?
It's occupied territory.
What it is, is it's an Indian reservation full of a bunch of refugees, people who already have been conquered for generations, who are locked up in there, who have no water resources of their own.
They're not allowed to.
Israel controls everything.
Israel controls their electricity, controls their travel.
So we've got to talk about the history here because, you know, depending on who's funding the history of Israel, right?
If you're looking at Prague or U, for instance, you know, you're obviously going to get an extremely Zionist background on what's going on and it's going to be in favor of Israel.
Sometimes you see different historical videos or animations online that are showing Gaza's perspective or from the perspective of Palestinians that make Israel seem like the ultimate aggressor and evil.
So I want to try to get an unbiased perspective.
Let's jump into the history.
So how do we get the Gaza Strip and the West Bank?
How do we go from people living and cohabitating a land to these separate regions?
Okay, so it's a long and complicated story, but to try to make it short, essentially what happened was the Zionist project had been going on since the late 19th century.
And there were Jews more and more from Europe, Ashkenazi Jews from Europe moving there in a time before World War I and after.
But then after World War II, there were many, I guess, millions, what, three or four million European Jewish refugees who left Europe and went to Palestine.
And rather than trying to, you know, live in a land with, say, separation of church and state and equal rights for everyone or some kind of binational state, they wanted to create an exclusivist Jewish state for themselves.
And that meant that the Palestinian Arabs and Christians had to go.
And so in 1947 began what's called the Nakba by the Palestinians.
means the catastrophe.
The Israelis call it the founding of Israel.
And they pushed this myth.
And it's funny because you get people to repeat this.
They have all these little slogans.
It was a land without people for a people without land.
Does that really make sense?
The eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea hadn't been settled, right?
When yeah, it had.
Of course, we know it all had that people lived there all along.
And what had happened was they had to essentially cleanse what they call now ethnic cleansing, which is, I believe, a term coined from the wars in Yugoslavia.
But they cleansed 750,000 people from their homes and who were never allowed to return.
And at the time, and you'll hear reference to this by the Zionists, of course, well, the UN had this partition plan that said that Israel could have their own Jewish state there.
Well, first of all, the UN General Assembly has no authority to create a state for anyone.
All that was was a recommendation.
But that same recommendation was to create two states, that the Palestinians would have a state too.
But what happened was the Israelis made a secret deal with the king of Jordan, even though in the 48 war, we get it short, you know, the lesson short and sweet.
Well, Israel was attacked by Syria, Jordan, and Egypt and, you know, defeated them all, thank goodness, and so was able to have their state.
But part of that was they didn't really fight the king of Jordan.
They made a separate deal with him that he could keep the West Bank and then made it, I don't know if they made a deal with the Egyptians until after the war, that they would keep the Gaza Strip.
So the Palestinians would be mostly herded into those two territories, but would never have their state, would be under the domination of a neighboring state.
And this created inside what is called Israel proper or within the 67 borders will be another term for it, what was an 80-20 super duper Jewish majority, right?
So that meant that they could be a democracy and a Jewish state.
And even though 20% of the population was Palestinian, Muslim, or Christian, they were only one fifth.
And so they could essentially appeal to the Americans as being, you know, a democratic country, like a Western European country or a Western country and, you know, stay in our good graces for that part of it.
And so my point being there, if you just, I'm trying to be descriptive, forget, you know, the atrocities that took place during the Nakaba and all of that, just for time's sake.
But the important point here, Elijah, being that what they created was sustainable, right?
They created an 80-20 super duper majority Jewish state.
So regardless of how it got that way, it was, you know, obviously the Palestinians were in refugee camps all over the place and, you know, it was terrible for them.
But my point being that what really changed, and I think what's really of note for people to understand the situation was the situation after the war in 1967.
Because in 1967, that was when Israel and Israel started it, although they blame it on Egypt, but put that to the side.
They fought against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria and beat them all.
And in this case, they took the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.
And especially they want the West Bank.
They call it, especially the religious right in Israel, calls it Judea and Sumeria and say that they have, you know, this supernatural title to this land that, of course, outweighs any natural rights that the Palestinians might have.
The Gaza Strip, I think, means less to them.
They did have settlers there for a time, although, well, I'll hold that point to a second.
I'll get back to the settlers in Gaza in a second.
In 67, essentially, what I'm trying to tell you is Israel de facto annexed the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
And they cleansed another couple of hundred thousand people from Israel into the West Bank.
But the point is, they kept all those people, right?
Whereas in 1948, they had cleansed the territory.
Here they took more territory, but they kept millions of people, essentially kidnapped them all.
And now they don't know what to do with them, right?
Is the source of this whole crisis?
So, in Camp David in 1979, when Jimmy Carter and Brzezinski made the deal where Israel made peace with Egypt, they also promised to create a two-state solution, to give up the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to allow the Palestinians to have their own separate independent state there.
And then essentially, nothing happened all through the 1980s.
Although George Bush Sr. did push for this at the Madrid conference, and this is part of what got him unelected, by the way.
And he complained: hey, I'm just one guy up against all these lobbyists up here.
And he later complained that the Israel lobby helped to sabotage his reelection in 1992 because he had crossed them by insisting, riding high on the popularity of Iraq War I, on insisting that they would draw their settlers who were illegally colonizing the West Bank and start to implement this two-state solution.
Well, Bill Clinton came in, and in 1993, he did sign the Oslo Accord.
Remember Arafat shaking hands with Yitzhak Rabin on the White House lawn in that famous picture.
And this Oslo Accord, what it said was that Israel would eventually get out of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and allow them to have independence and a Palestinian state.
Now, Rabin didn't really mean that.
What he thought of as a Palestinian state is not what you or I would call a Palestinian state, but it's a hell of a lot more independence than they have now.
But as you may know, in 1995, a right-wing, frankly, a Netanyahu fan, Likud Party follower, settler from the West Bank, assassinated, murdered Yitzhak Rabin.
And he was replaced by Shimon Perez and then Ehud Barak, and pardon me, Netanyahu, and then Barak and then Sharon.
And now, of course, after Omer Netanyahu again.
But so the deal was dead.
They never did make the two-state solution.
And there's a mythology which some of your listeners may be familiar with and they may be objecting right now that everybody knows that the Israelis tried to give Yasser Arafat a Palestinian state in the year 2000 at again at Camp David.
But that's not true.
And this guy, Robert Malley, who you may know, he's in trouble now.
He's scandalous now because he's been Biden's envoy to Iran or some kind of Middle East envoy dealing with Iran over there.
But he was one of the negotiators at Camp David in 2000.
So that's not true.
The Israelis never even got around to making an actual offer at all.
You can read all about it in the Guardian and in the New York Review of Books on that.
So they said, you know, again, the Israelis, their public relations machine comes up with these clichés.
They say, everybody repeat it.
Everybody say it along with me.
The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, right?
Which is just, it's not true, but it's just a thing that you say, and it's a cliche and people say it.
So it must be right that, geez, and just think about how ridiculous that is.
Yeah, every time we try to give them their own country, they refuse to accept it.
Yeah, please, right?
It's not true.
So then here's another important gimmick where we get back to Gaza.
Is in 2005, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon pulls the Israeli settlers out of Gaza.
Again, it's not as important to the Israelis as the West Bank is, and there were fewer Israeli settlers there.
In fact, my friend Eric Garris, the real boss at anti-war.com, he predicted at the time it's going to be worse for the poor people of Gaza because those Israeli settlers were essentially protecting them as human shields de facto from the worst of what the Israeli government can dish out against them.
And that proved to be absolutely insightful and a portent.
And then here's what happened.
Conda Leezer Rice and George Bush insisted in 2006.
They said, well, the Israelis don't have to deal with terrorists who are unelected, meaning Arafat and the PLO or PLA, Fatah.
They don't have to deal with them.
They're not elected.
And we believe in democracy.
We're the George W. Bush administration.
We're all about democracy.
So first they have to stand for election and then the Israelis can negotiate with them.
But then, and I don't know if this was deliberate or not, depends on how cynical you are, you guess.
But the Israelis really rigged the election against Arafat's party and for Hamas.
And the way that they did that was they're, again, in control of these occupied territories.
So like, you know, I understand that the U.S. and its greatest allies typically have the most fair and free elections in the world.
We just had one in 2020 that was pretty remarkable.
Even out here in Australia, you know, they love doing very fair and free things.
Like, you know, the election committee out here on the day before the vote literally said, hey, by the way, it's true, people can double vote.
And we have no way of telling if they've double voted, but you shouldn't double vote.
But if you are going to double vote, we can't track you.
And you see this sort of like interference.
There's a referendum going on out here in all these Western countries where people that go, well, you know, people in Gaza and these people, you know, continue to elect terrorists or in these elections, they all support these people, et cetera.
And I go, you know, I just don't believe that we can really take elections to explain anything in these countries anymore because I don't trust elections at all.
And so you're saying that Israel and these people were working to rig the elections.
I feel like, so this is a universal global problem.
In my understanding, in these democratic states, that these elections are just rigged and there's really maybe nothing we can do about it.
I mean, clearly there are problems with elections all over the place and observers got to do their best and all that.
But in this specific case, what happened was they control all the tax revenue.
And if they don't give the tax money to the government to distribute for goods and services, then they don't have it.
And so that was what they did in the lead up to the election was they just start Fatah, which gave the advantage to Hamas.
Now, you know, a short history of Hamas is that the Mossad deliberately helped to facilitate their rise and even directly finance their rise in order to create a right-wing religious alternative to the PLO so that, you know, and here's my footnotes, Richard Sale in the UPI and Andrew Higgins in the Wall Street Journal, both right-leaning publications.
And I don't know if Higgins is a right-leaning author.
I think he is, right-leaning reporters and right-leaning publications there.
Again, that's Richard Sale and UPI and Andrew Higgins in the Wall Street Journal, that they did this so that they wouldn't have to make peace.
So they could constantly say, oh, no, look at how bad Hamas is for being, and this is, in fact, this isn't why they originally created and they originally created just to kind of divide and conquer a bit.
But once Hamas got really bad after the first intifada, Richard Sale says, quoting CIA, they kept going anyway.
They said, even though these guys do suicide attacks and stuff, we still want to keep them going because they make a great scapegoat to point at, right?
So then this is what happened.
You might say, you might guess that they deliberately rigged the election.
You could also say it was an accident, that they were taking it out on Arafat for whatever reason.
And this backfired by helping Hamas in the election.
I don't know the answer to that for sure.
But I can tell you this.
There's another great article you need to look up.
It's by David Rose in Vanity Fair.
Yes, I admit it's in Vanity Fair, but it's a solid piece of journalism.
You should look at it.
It's called the Gaza Bombshell.
And it's about how what happened in the election was Hamas won, but just barely.
So they had to create a coalition government.
But then America, Israel, and Egypt teamed up to do a coup d'etat.
And they poured in a bunch of weapons to the Fatah group in Gaza, which they used to attack Hamas and tried to take on Hamas.
And Hamas destroyed them and won.
And only then did they take full control over the Gaza Strip.
And then the Israelis put them under total siege.
As you said at the intro to the show, they're going to put them under a total siege.
My friend, they've been under total siege for 16 years.
Because I need to stop you here for a second because I hate talking about Israel.
And I'll just be completely honest with you.
I hate it because it's like talking to a 60-year-old about Russia.
You know, when you're trying to just have a genuine conversation, it's like those freaking communists.
And you're like, dude, just, okay, we're in a different era.
We're in a different time.
And I'm trying to have a discussion about a specific conflict, Ukraine versus Russia.
Can we please let the Cold War go for a second?
We can talk about it.
It can affect today, but can you just try to be, put your mind to the present, okay?
Please.
And with Israel, it's the same thing.
I've had a few prominent people unfollow me that I was friends with, that even helped me when I went independent to like, you know, get good contracts and go out that unfollowed me simply because I just wouldn't like head over heels, start lusting for the blood of innocent lives.
I'm not joking.
This is like I've lost friends and more friendships over not jumping in this.
So I hate it because unlike some people who don't do this for a living, it fucking blows because I actually like some of these people.
Now I lose them as friends simply for my opinions.
People are really sensitive about Israel and Palestine too.
People are really like, if you don't take one direct side of things, then you're always the enemy.
So I want to, I'm not trying to be careful here, but from your perspective then, Hamas taking over and getting control.
It looks like other nations didn't want this to happen.
It looks like Israel didn't want this to happen.
Do you, can you objectively tell us if you think Israel was correct in the way that they've changed their relationship with their checkpoints, with the walls, with cutting down crossings, with the sea blockade, et cetera?
Well, so remember, they promised that they would give the Palestinians independence, but they didn't mean it.
Right.
So when, when here, I have this quote for you.
Let me share this quote with you.
It's very telling.
This is from when they pulled out of Gaza in 2005.
Oh, you know what?
I'm sorry.
I don't have the whole quote, but I can paraphrase it for you.
What it is, is it's Dove Weissglass is the guy's name, and he was an advisor to Ariel Sharon.
And people were criticizing them and saying, hey, listen, how can you give up Gaza?
How can you give up any territory to these terrible terrorists and blah, blah.
And Weissglass says, no, you don't understand, C.
The reason we're doing this unilateral withdrawal, not part of any negotiation.
We're just withdrawing the way we're doing it is because this freezes the peace process.
It puts the peace process in formaldehyde.
Everyone put that in your search engine.
It puts the peace process in formaldehyde.
In other words, it's sabotage, pretending to be magnanimous.
Oh, look, we're withdrawing from our occupation of Gaza.
Well, they're still keeping it under total control from the outside.
Then they rig it again, I don't know, accidentally on purpose or what, so that now they have Hamas in there.
And then I have another quote from you.
This is only from two years ago.
And the guy who said this, Elijah, is currently the finance minister.
Okay, this guy is one of the top members of Benjamin Netanyahu's government from the religious Zionist Party.
And he said this just two years ago.
He said, listen, the PA, that is Fatah, the secular commie, PLO, you know, Yasser Arafat types in the West Bank.
He says, the PA is a liability and Hamas is an asset on the international playing field in this game of the delegitimization.
Think about it for a second.
The PA is a liability and Hamas is an asset.
It's a terrorist organization.
Nobody will recognize it.
Nobody will give it status at the ICC and nobody will let them push resolutions at the UN.
And then we'll need, and we won't need an American veto or leaving us where we would need an American veto, and we won't need one.
And I'm sure at all that given the current situation, given the current facts, that the central playing field we're playing in is international there.
Abu Mazen, that's Abu Abbas, the leader of Fatah, he's costing us serious casualties, in other words, in a public relations sense.
And Hamas in such a situation would be an asset.
And then here's the imperial hubris, right?
I don't think we need to be afraid of that, Hamas, because the question was, what about the danger of Hamas taking over?
And he says, oh, I don't think we need to be afraid of that, that Hamas could pose us any serious harm.
But you see what a great benefit it is to have these Islamist right-wing extremists running around so that we can say, again, with the Israeli cliché, everyone say it with me.
We have no partner for peace.
We have no partner for peace.
That's the mantra.
Because look, Israel created Hamas and then Israel put them in charge in the Gaza Strip.
And then Israel bombs them.
And then they commit heinous acts.
We didn't get to talk about exactly what happened on the ground over the weekend, but they absolutely have committed war crimes, massacring innocent people.
No question about that.
And then the Israelis say, oh, no, see, why does this keep happening to us?
Right?
When they're the ones who created the situation.
So you're asking, your question to me was, so, well, once they put Hamas in charge in Gaza, what else were they supposed to do?
Well, what they were supposed to do was give up a Palestinian state and let them have independence or give them equal rights.
And let's get real.
If they tore down the fence and said, okay, you're all Israeli citizens now.
Everyone has Israeli citizenship and Israeli property rights and voting rights and every other thing.
It wouldn't be nothing at all for the IDF to disarm Hamas and Islamic Jihad as what are they?
They're militias.
They're not a state army.
A state army can go in there and disarm them.
And especially if you're giving them equal rights and letting them live there, war's over.
That's doable.
And then just like with American Indians, we don't fear American Indians here because they don't have any military power anymore.
Their military power has been disarmed.
They can be American citizens or they can live on the reservation up to them.
Right?
But we don't get to keep bombing their reservation and then calling them terrorists forever fighting back against us.
Well, also, the only bombing that happens on reservations is my bank account when I go to their casinos and tables and I'm like, oh, shit.
And I realize I lost a lot of money.
I want to continue to talk about this.
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If you're just joining the live stream right now, I'm with my guest right now.
This is Scott Horton.
He is an expert, I would say, on war and being against unjust war and the idea of constant conflict.
We're talking about the truth of what's going on in Israel and Palestine.
And basically, we're going to get in a few minutes.
We're about to get to the current situation of where we're at.
And looking, we're going to start with the question of who's actually responsible.
Because if you are on Zionist Twitter, which is where all the world is happening now called X, you will think that Hamas, every baby is Hamas in Palestine and that we should kill them all.
We should murder the babies.
And if you are on pro-Palestine Twitter slash X, you will think that the Zionists can't, they're like the devil himself and that they all deserve, the innocents deserve to be killed too, the babies.
And we're going to show you tweets where both sides are calling to kill women and children.
It's pretty crazy.
So it's really important to be educated and to know what's going on because I happen to be a little more down the middle where I'm from an era where we don't think it's cool to kill innocent people and killing babies is something that we leave up for abortionists and people who are into infanticide.
So I'm getting back here where we're talking about Gaza and the relationship with Israel.
And I'm going to throw back to my guest here to continue his thought.
Yeah, yeah, one-state solution versus two-state solution and all that.
So look, the status quo is an absolute nightmare.
The idea is independence or citizenship.
And, you know, look, let me say this too.
I know that you have a very right-leaning audience and Eileen right in my own ways.
Some.
I know how people feel about this.
But if people want to be fair-minded at all about it, I know some people are, as you're saying, just calling for genocide or whatever.
If people want to be, you know, fair-minded at all about it, the Palestinians were there.
You know, you like the Israelis more for whatever reasons.
They're whiter.
They speak English better or whatever.
You just don't like Arabs or Muslims or whatever.
A lot of Palestinians are Christians, by the way.
But, you know, even still, you got to admit they're human beings.
You got to admit this is a situation where it's the Anglos versus the Indians.
And just because you're on the Anglo side doesn't mean those Indians got no rights at all.
And that's what's happening here is essentially the victors, the conquerors, acting like they are, you know, completely at the mercy, somehow being invaded by the country next door.
When what's happening is essentially more like a prison riot, more like an uprising on an Indian reservation.
You know, Ben Shapiro, I guess, quite famously, whenever this happens, he says, what would happen if the Mexicans or if Mexico was shooting rockets across the Rio Grande and killing Americans?
What would we do?
See, right there, he's lying.
Right there, the implication is the national government in Mexico City and its standing army.
That's what he means when he says the Mexicans shooting rockets over the border.
But there's no sovereign nation, not really out in, you know, on the Indian reservation.
They don't have any military power.
Sorry, my dog's barking.
I hope that's not too loud.
They don't have any military power.
If they're shooting rockets over the wall of an Indian reservation, then that's bad.
And if innocent people are getting killed, that's terrible.
We all condemn violence.
But obviously, you would think this is a job for national government negotiators to solve, not to send in the Delta force and kill everybody.
There's got to be some kind of grievance that has these people firing their rockets over the wall that they're locked behind in the first place.
You know, they talk about refugee camps in Gaza and in the West Bank.
Well, who's living in those refugee camps?
These aren't refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan.
They're Palestinians.
They're refugees from Israel, which used to be their country.
And, you know, some of these people are still alive.
You know, this is not ancient history.
They were cleansed from their land back after the Second World War.
And some of them more recently than that.
And so now, look, back to the two-state solution, because here's the thing about that is it was always a lie.
I don't know who coined this phrase, Elijah, but I like it.
They said the whole thing about the peace process that you remember from your entire lifetime is the peace process is like two sides negotiating over a pizza while one side is eating it.
Right.
And so that was what's happening.
The Israelis are constantly colonizing the West Bank, colonizing East Jerusalem, making it impossible to create a contiguous Palestinian state.
This is what they call facts on the ground.
Time rolls on.
The facts on the ground means more and more and more settlements, making it more and more and more difficult for the West Bank to ever be an independent state.
And then I'll spare you the exact quotes, but I have two of them here from Netanyahu himself saying essentially there will never be an independent Palestinian state.
All those years that I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, someday, well, I was lying.
He doesn't say that, but yeah, he says there will always be one security force, one national government will control all of the land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, right?
Just like when the Palestinians say, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
Well, he's saying from the river to the sea, Israel will control all the land and the Israeli Jews will be free and the Palestinians will not.
But and they will never have their state.
So when he started saying that officially in, I guess, 2019 and 20 was when he first started officially making those pronouncements.
It was in 2021 then that Bet Salem, the Israeli rights group, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch all put out these giant reports.
I urge people to read them.
And I know Amnesty sometimes helps lie us into war and Human Rights Watch makes their mistakes and they're really bad on Israel-Palestine issues a lot of times, even.
But I urge people to read these things.
I mean, the facts are the facts.
You don't have to agree with everything they say in there.
But take an honest look at Bet Salem, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch from all from 2021, saying this is apartheid.
When you promise that one day you're going to give them independence, well, it's not apartheid yet.
But once the gimmick is over, once the lie, the transparent lie, has fallen away, now it's apartheid.
What else do you call it?
Here's, I talked about an Indian reservation.
Here's another analogy.
What if in Mississippi in the 1950s, when the Supreme Court started striking down segregation and they started in the 60s, they passed the civil rights legislation and so forth.
What if Mississippi had said absolutely not?
Well, we will not desegregate.
However, what we will do, we will let Northern Mississippi go as an independent black state.
So we will not give them their rights, but we will give them their independence and then their rights will be up to them.
And that'll be their problem.
And so now we're going to engage in a peace process where we give up northern Mississippi to be an independent black state instead of giving them equal rights and ending Jim Crow.
And then they never do that.
And then the whites keep control of all of northern Mississippi and keep the blacks living under Jim Crow half-assed slavery the whole time anyway, for 30, 40 years longer anyway, despite blowing a bunch of smoke about how one day they'll have their independence.
All these Americans, I just want to ask you, okay, because on one hand, like I, I come from, you know, the evangelical, like Zionist background, right?
That's where I, that's where I come from.
And I both am not a huge fan of, you know, the evangelical church and seeing their actual effect on the world.
And I've also drifted away from this sort of dogma and Zionism.
But I also don't like Islamic extremism.
Like I'm not, I'm not a, I'm not retarded in terms of like, you know, these queers that are like, I'm queer for Palestine.
And you're like, do they do not, they're not giving too kindly to queers.
I mean, I've never had a real good experience with Islamic extremists.
I don't think Islamic extremists like the United States.
I get why they don't.
I'm not going to go down that road.
But it's like people think, oh, so, you know, you're really pro-Hamas or you're really pro-Palestinian.
I mean, in my mind, I wouldn't want to live in Gaza.
I don't want to live there.
I don't want to, I would never want to be in that situation.
I'd never want to be under Hamas leadership or under their control.
It's like, okay, just because Israel is running apartheid, I mean, the justification, I want to hear your argument to this.
A lot of people say, well, yeah, it's kind of shitty.
And I think apartheid in South Africa was kind of shitty too when you looked at it in terms of the, you know, on paper, Rhodesia, the separation of governance seemed shitty on paper.
But then when you look at what happened with Zimbabwe, when, you know, black people got control, they destroyed the country.
When you look at what happened when communist Nelson Mandela and black people got control in South Africa, you know, today, today, I know a lot of universities are even banning white people from attending.
Things have gone full circle and reversed, and they did not get, I don't think, got better in these countries.
So a lot of people point to these saying, well, yeah, maybe Israel is, you know, this doesn't look good.
It's not good.
But ultimately, like, what would you do if you had an enemy on your border?
They have no choice now.
This is like a necessary evil for them to maintain peace because obviously we don't want to be rude to Hamas and to the Palestinians, but also Hamas sucks and the Palestinians want to kill us.
I mean, first of all, just because someone is a Muslim doesn't mean they're an Islamist, which implies they demand an Islamic state and Sharia law.
And there, of course, is very broad spectrums of political points of view inside Islam.
And I think Hamas is far from representative of the people of Palestine by and large.
Again, it took the Israelis, you know, helping them and suppressing their enemies to put them in power in the first place.
So I don't really think of them, you know, in that way.
Also, when you talk about the necessary evil of this, I'm reminded of the quote from Thomas Jefferson when he talked about slavery.
And he said, we have the wolf by the ears and we can neither safely hold him nor let him go.
But the thing is, they're not wolves.
They're human beings and you got no right to hold them.
You put yourself in a, you know, touchy situation, figure it out.
You can't just hold people in bondage because you're scared of what will happen if you release them.
Again, the Palestinians were there first.
It's not like they invaded from Syria somewhere or came across the Jordan River.
This is their country.
In fact, famously in the 1980s, a lady wrote a book pretending all the Palestinians had invaded from somewhere else.
And Norman Finkelstein wrote a book, absolutely destroying every page of it and proving that is an absolute lie.
So, you know, and so look, there's no reason to think that, okay, so if they have a one-state solution, or either way, they have a two-state solution or one-state solution that that necessarily means they're going to have an Islamist government take over the one state or the second state there.
And then, you know, war unending from that reason, you know, from that way forward and all of that.
I mean, the honest thing, the obvious thing is to have as, you know, the most minarchist state possible, meaning the most minimal state.
So that, you know, like in our country, we don't even think twice about this, right?
We, even when we talk about the First Amendment, we don't even mention this part because it's so ingrained, no one even questions the separation of church and state in this country.
No one would think, imagine a state government trying to say, well, they'll stop you from going to church in the name of the germ, but they won't say, hey, listen, you have to stop going to Catholic church and start going to Protestant church because Michigan, we're a Protestant state now.
No one would dare to do that, right?
In Texas, you'd be way out in the countryside and there's mosques and synagogues and whatever everywhere.
Nobody cares.
Nobody's threatened by that.
Like way out in the country where people are pretty, you know, Protestant and also, you know, less educated and whatever, where you might think people would be afraid of and resent and clash with Muslims and Jews and whatever.
Nope.
Nobody cares.
Nobody cares because nobody's using their power to inflict their religion on anyone else and enforce anyone else to respect their customs and traditions and beliefs and whatever.
So that's what they need is, you know, you could not, it's true.
If you had a one-state solution, it would no longer be a Jewish democracy.
It would just be a democracy.
Right.
And then, and then, yes, it's true also that democracy can mean just tyranny of the majority and three wolves in a sheep voting on what's for lunch and all those clichés.
But again, if you have a very minarchist state, a very limited government where the job of the government is protecting property rights and creating a level playing field as best as possible, if that's the goal, then that can be done.
Look, and we have binational states and things like this around the world right now in Switzerland.
It's divided in four and they get along.
They've gotten along for centuries like that with these four major ethnic cantons in Switzerland.
Yeah, it's like the United States, formerly known as the British colony.
It's just annoying.
But I love Benjamin Netanyahu said, Israel's at war.
We didn't want this war.
It was forced upon us in the most brutal and savage way.
But though Israel didn't start this war, Israel will finish it once the Jewish people were stateless, once the Jewish people were defenseless no longer.
Hamas will understand that by attacking us, they have made a mistake of historic proportions.
We will exact a price that will be remembered by them and Israel's other enemies for decades to come.
The savage attacks that Hamas perpetrated against innocent Israelis are mind-boggling, slaughtering families in their homes, massacring hundreds of young people at an outdoor festival, kidnapping scores of women, children and elderly, even Holocaust survivors.
Hamas terrorists bound, burned, and executed children.
They are savages.
Hamas is ISIS.
And I just, and just as the forces of civilization united to defeat ISIS, the forces of civilization must support Israel in defeating Hamas.
I want to thank President Biden for his unequivocal support.
I want to thank leaders across the world who are standing with Israel today.
I want to thank the people in Congress of the United States of America.
In fighting Hamas, Israel is not only fighting for its own people, it is fighting for every country that stands against barbarism.
Israel will win this war.
And when Israel wins, the entire civilized world wins.
So he says we didn't start this war.
And so I kind of want to come on the context of this.
You know, I don't want to, you could do whatever you want, but I'm not going to justify, you know, even if I understand certain things.
Like I can understand something, but I'll never justify it.
And I'm not, I'm just going to come on and say I'm not in the crowd that is trying to justify these attacks from Hamas on Israeli civilians and also on foreign nationals at the festival.
I can't do that.
I'm not going to do it.
I think it's evil, what they did to the people.
But I don't think that it's wrong to try to understand why someone does something, right?
Just like if somebody disrespects your wife and you slit their throat, do you still get thrown for homicide?
Yes, but that's why we have a trial because you understand, well, did this person just have, were they just out of control and slit someone's throat or what was the motive?
And so I am not going to be taken out of context here.
I think it's disgusting what Hamas did.
But I also want to know, then this is where someone got real.
This is how someone unfollowed me.
I said, if somebody's going to go out and do something this disgusting and barbaric, then they've got to feel justified in some way.
I'm not saying they are.
They've got to feel justified.
And so what would make people feel justified to go kill a bunch of innocent people at a music festival, many of which are foreigners and not even from the country?
Why do they feel justified in doing this?
So that's my question.
He said, Israel didn't start this war.
They started this.
Who started this war?
Because it looks like this is now an escalation of conflict that we have not seen in the last 16 years in terms of Israel means business.
I like the way that you frame it as a big, messy question.
If you start history on Saturday morning, then yeah, of course, Hamas launched this attack.
Things had been relatively peaceful for a long time.
They've been abiding by a ceasefire or two.
And, you know, these things come and go.
But yes, this latest round of conflict, there's no question that they started it.
Overall, that's a damn lie that, oh, they just started the war.
But we understand what he means if we're being critical and honest, then we can still agree with him.
And I got to say, I agree with a lot of what he said there.
I would emphasize that, first of all, Hamas and the Palestinians is not the same thing.
The people of Gaza, there are something like 2 million people there.
Most of them are minors.
The majority of them are minors.
So they could not possibly be somehow collectively responsible for voting for Hamas in 2006, which, by the way, that's what Osama bin Laden said about us.
He said, you voted for this, so you deserve to die.
That's in the letter to America.
You can read on the Guardian right now.
That's bin Laden logic, that if you vote wrong, it's okay to kill somebody, right?
But here, these are children.
Most of them are under 18 now, which means most of them didn't even exist or were toddlers at the time of the election of 2006, could not possibly have participated in any way.
And they are the ones who are being made to pay the price for this.
And politicians always do this.
You know, they'll say, even in one sentence, they'll say, you know, important European powers like Germany, Poland, Putin, because you're not even allowed to say Russia, right?
It's like they did with David Quresh.
You're not allowed to think about all the nameless, faceless, innocent people around him.
It's this one demon.
unidentified
You have to hate him, hate Quresh, kill Quresh, end him.
It's the same thing you're seeing in your Twitter feed now.
Go in there and kill them all until they're all dead.
Well, who's all?
Hamas or the 2 million men, women, and children of the Gaza Strip who are guilty of nothing but being born of the wrong religion, the son of a refugee who'd been cleansed from his own land?
It's completely crazy the way people take this.
So that's the important point there.
Another important point is that no, Hamas is not ISIS.
In terms of the war crimes they've committed over the weekend, that's some ugly stuff.
But you know what?
ISIS is not just defined by doing ugly things.
They absolutely committed war crimes, but that's not what made ISIS ISIS.
What made ISIS ISIS was the absolutely apocalyptic ideology of their leader, Baghdadi, and the people around him that took essentially al-Qaeda in Iraq and made it 10 times crazier.
And, well, I'll admit too, they had the opportunity to be much more violent for a much longer period of time.
But I would point out, and it's true, that whenever bin Ladenite type radicals poke their head up in the Gaza Strip, Hamas always kills them.
And Hamas did participate in elections.
They have negotiated in international forums.
They have said before, and people ignore this, they have said that they would recognize Israel within 67 borders.
So they are not al-Qaeda.
But going back to what he said about what they did when they launched this attack, it's absolutely heinous.
And I would encourage people, though, only to recognize that it's deliberate, that what seems like just, you know, pure barbarism is a provocation.
It's terrorism.
The purpose of terrorism is to provoke a reaction, right?
And we saw this especially, you see this with Islamist terrorist types a lot because they are usually the much weaker power.
And so look at Bosnia and look at Chechnya, where, and he'll look at Al-Qaeda attacks on America.
They do an attack against a superior power, knowing that it'll cause the superior power to come and commit massive crimes against them.
Then they hope to play on that and get a counter reaction from that, right?
I saw a tweet where Scott Adams, who's a very smart guy, although I don't know he knows much about foreign policy, but he was just trying to reason it out.
What could it be that they're trying to accomplish by doing something like this, right?
Rather than, you know, other than just taking out revenge and bloodlust on their victims.
And what they're trying to do, I imagine, is they're trying to provoke the Israelis into doing exactly what they're doing, launching a massive assault on the Gaza Strip, which then forces leaders all over the region and populations all over the region to choose.
So what is Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah in Lebanon, what does he say?
And what does he do?
And what does the leader of Iran say and do?
And then what about all the little kept imperial princelings of the Gulf, Mohammed bin Salman and Mohammed bin Zayed and all of the guys, you know, all the guys that just signed the Abraham Accords with Israel and are the compliant clients of the United States?
Are they going to stick up for the Palestinians?
Are they going to stay quiet?
And what are their populations going to think about that?
And all these things.
In other words, this is what the commies call commi revolutionary, you know, bomb planters and throwers who call heightening the contradictions, right?
So in other words, Hamas was trying to get those Palestinian kids killed.
They were trying to provoke Netanyahu into bombing those buildings that you showed at the top of the show so that those buildings would collapse on the poor Palestinian civilians so that then others would take their side and would rally to their side and the war would be furthered.
And who could justify that?
Again, people got to break this into the difference between descriptive and normative, right?
Like what if we're talking about ancient history and we're just analyzing it, right?
We're not talking about like, oh, whose side are you gay married to here as in like some partisan way?
We're just talking about like, what does it all mean?
What's going on here?
The Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are absolutely doomed.
They're hopeless.
Let me tell you, I was going to rant this earlier.
Why do you think so many American Jews side with the Palestinians?
I mean, overall, I'm not saying I don't think anyone's just or very, very, very few of any, only kooks would justify what they've done this weekend, killing innocent civilians.
But I just mean, overall, why would so many Israeli Jews side with the Palestinians when they had no other interest in doing so other than just what's right and wrong?
And they just say it's wrong.
Look up Norman Finkelstein.
And Norman Finkelstein is, you know, a born and raised Jewish communist, the son of two Holocaust survivors who raised him to be against things like Holocausts, right?
And then, so what does he do?
He sticks up for the Palestinians because the way that they're being treated is wrong.
And he just tells the truth and he fights like hell for it.
And so I think there's obvious wisdom in that, right?
They're like, you don't see a bunch of Irish siding with the English.
You know what I mean?
In that fight, because the English don't really have much to argue for their side of that fight.
You know what I mean?
They're the oppressors in that one.
And yet, look at all the American Jews who will be the first to point out to you how unfairly the Palestinians are being treated and being put in this position.
So by the way, some of these people are my friends or at least colleagues that I've worked with.
It's always really surprising to me in this industry.
I've really tried to separate myself in the last year or more from my background, which was more in the conservative establishment, simply because we've drifted in our viewpoints.
You know, I've gone a little bit deeper into my discovery and they put brakes on it, right?
So when I worked for them, they used to really put a brake pad.
You know, if I went in just slightly the wrong direction, I'd have a meeting.
You know, I'd get the call.
And I'd be in these positions to where I really was, you know, in a difficulty.
Because I'm a married man and it's your job.
And like I always say, people say, oh, you weren't being true to yourself.
It's like, well, no.
It's just like, you know, you start to act like you pick up your friend's humor when you're around them, right?
You start to pick up the words they are.
You act like the people you're around.
And so sometimes that's why it's important to be careful who you're surrounding yourself with because, you know, I genuinely believed certain things and they've changed.
Now that I'm not surrounded by these people and you don't have people correcting you at dinner and telling you that you're wrong and you actually can read and research and understand life, you can start to see that, hey, a lot of the people that are influencing the right wing are just objectively wrong or they're intentionally intellectually retarded for the sake of keeping a status quo, like a sort of a gatekeeping.
Now, some of these people I still like.
One of these people that I, I don't care if the chat disagrees with me, somebody that I really respect and like, and I've worked with many times before and been friends with is someone by the names of Laura Loomer.
Now, this is not, we're going to look at a few of these of these tweets.
This was really crazy to me, okay?
Because Laura Loomer is not loved by the left, okay?
And in fact, a lot of the right-wing establishment has really, you know, treated her poorly.
She was kicked out of Twitter.
She is Jewish herself.
And she had written this, which blew my mind.
I'm not going to lie.
She said there is no such thing as Palestine.
It's always been a figment of the imagination of Islamic terrorists and Jew haters.
Israel belongs to Jews.
For the sake of humanity and what is righteous and good in the war on evil, Israel must level Gaza, flatten it into a parking lot, and then glass it.
The one state solution doesn't include a world or scenario where Israelis can coexist with Hamas animals and their sympathizers.
They must be shown through IDF4 so they don't exist and their pretend homeland doesn't exist.
We will not recognize these animals and the entire world must unite in rejecting them and denying them any sense of dignity.
There is no reasoning with Islamic terrorists.
Every single Hamas terrorist and terrorist sympathizer must be killed by the IDF.
So that's a key word there.
Every terrorist sympathizer must be killed.
IDF can give 24 hours to women and children so they can evacuate, but then Gaza must be destroyed.
Palestinian terror must be driven from this planet.
There's a reason why no other Islamic country in the Middle East wants the Palestinians in their country.
Their entire existence revolves around hating and killing Jews.
There is no peace with these people.
We can't coexist with barbarians who teach their children to kill Jews from the time they are born.
There will never be peace in the Middle East, but there is life and Israel has the right to protect that life.
That's a lot of words in one tweet, but that is not an that is not uncommon.
I mean, I remember one of these terrorist attacks in France where ISIS machine gunned up the concert or the cartoon place, one of these attacks.
And I was at a friend of mine's house and I saw his old mom, who I hadn't seen in years and years and years.
His old mom was there.
And she goes, well, I guess we just got a new Kamal.
Yeah.
And what's to me was so instructive about it.
It's like, I mean, I know this lady and she's a sweet lady, right?
And I also know this lady and I know that she doesn't know anything about anything, right?
All she knows is it's the year 2016 and we're still fighting these Muslims.
So apparently, everything we've tried so far hasn't worked.
So apparently we just got to finally cut the cord, you know, flight the fuse, call it off, turn the place to glass, because she's out of ideas, right?
She doesn't know that these guys were mercenaries who worked for Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan and George Bush and Bill Clinton, but that George Bush and Bill Clinton bombed Iraq from bases in Saudi Arabia and supported Israel killing Palestinians and Lebanese for the entire 1990s long, and that that was what motivated Al-Qaeda to attack us in the first place.
And this goes right back to was sympathy for Hamas.
You see over my shoulder here, I have this book I wrote called Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism.
Well, it's endorsed by Colonel McGregor, right?
Everybody's conservative, favorite conservative anti-war colonel from Fox News.
He endorsed my book and it's endorsed former CIA officers and former military guys and from Britain and Australia and all over the place who fought in the terror wars, who endorsed my book.
And in that book, I explain at length why al-Qaeda attacked the United States.
And Elijah, nobody who read that book, right?
Some idiot who doesn't know on Twitter, maybe, but no one who read that book accused me of taking Al-Qaeda's side, accused me of being an al-Qaeda sympathizer, right?
All it was was I read a bunch of stuff that they wrote and I read a bunch of stuff that experts wrote about them and I interviewed a few and I explained here was their motive and here was their strategy.
And here's how essentially what America did was fall in their trap and do what they wanted, quite deliberately so, but still.
But again, I'm not a branch Davidian either, although I do have much sympathy for them, but I don't have any for their leader.
But I do sympathize very much with the rest of the Davidians.
They're wonderful people.
But the rest of these, like, whatever, what, what dog, remember 20 years ago, Elijah, they would say, well, you're pro-terrorist.
You're pro-Saddam Hussein.
But come on, there was no such thing as the pro-Saddam Hussein club in America at all.
Even Iraqi expats in America hated Saddam Hussein.
No one in America was pro-Al-Qaeda other than a few Islamists living in Brooklyn or something, right?
But as far as like someone didn't want to attack Iraq, think of just how inane it is to think that they were pro-Saddam Hussein and his fascist regime.
All it was was they knew better than to invade this country that had nothing to do with the attack against us.
And that a bunch of cynical neoconservatives were taking advantage of our crisis to launch an extra war.
I have to throw this in here because I know you're running out of time here for the interview, and I can keep going, but I just wanted to bring this up here.
This is the managing editor, I think, Joe Polak, senior editor-at-large of Breitbart News, had obviously put out this as well, saying, I have broken the Sabbath and Jewish holiday to deliver this message.
Israel should wipe out Gaza, allow 48 hours to evacuate women, children, the elderly, destroy everything that remains, plow it under, and annex it to Israel.
This is the end of Hamas and Palestinian terror.
The great Keith Woods brought up a counterpoint.
He said, the nationalists, aka people like myself, I consider myself more of a populist nationalist type of individual, get locked out of the political conversation by Conservatism Inc.
I'm assuming he means the mainstream right wing for moderate positions like opposing replacement immigration.
Meanwhile, the editor of Breitbart can come on here and advocate wiping out an entire nation as an act of racial revenge for his people.
Now, I don't, I just wanted to bring up this double standard here.
Let me make a point here real quick because I got what Biden's got and I'll forget, but you'll like this.
I mentioned earlier in the show about how people can read Andrew Higgins and the Wall Street Journal and Richard Sale and UPI for two about how Israel helped to create Hamas.
Well, what that meant was they supported Sheikh Yassin.
He was the old man in the wheelchair with the long beard.
And you may not know, but it's important, I think, that everybody know that when Israel assassinated Sheikh Yassin with a missile, this old man in a wheelchair that they had supported in power all those years, when they murdered him with a missile strike in, was it April 2004?
That's what caused the riot in Fallujah when people rose up and they lynched the four Blackwater guards and burnt their corpses and hung their corpses from the bridge.
And that was what became the excuse for the first major assault on Fallujah, where they did essentially what you just read him recommending.
They told all the civilians to flee, and then they turned the whole city into a free fire zone and they killed thousands of innocent people.
Because of course, all the people didn't flee.
Not all of them could flee.
And they killed thousands and thousands.
It was General James Mattis who led his Marines in there and committed this massive war crime.
And they did it again after the election in November.
And it was all because Israel assassinated some old man who was their sock puppet previously that they decided that they didn't want anymore.
And then for people who are familiar with the history of Iraq War II, that assault on Fallujah did more than any other thing to set off a wide-scale, broad-based Sunni insurgency against the United States in western Iraq from Mosul in the north all the way through to Crete and Samara and Fallujah and Ramadi and all of Western Iraq went up in flames because of that.
And it was because of Israel intervening there.
And by the way, I mentioned this before, but only barely.
And you should know this too, Elijah, that Mohammed Atta, the lead hijacker on September 11th and his pal Ramzi bin al-Shib, who's in Guantanamo Bay right now, who they actually said they can't put him on trial because they tortured him out of his mind.
Anyway, those two guys, they decided to join Al-Qaeda after Israel attacked Lebanon in 1996 in Operation Grapes of Wrath.
And what's now called the first Khanna massacre, because they did it again 10 years later in 2006.
But in the first Khanna massacre, they bombed a UN shelter where women and children were hiding, killing 106 of them.
And when that happened, actually, it was before the massacre, just on the launch of the assault, Mohammed Atta and Ramzi bin al-Shib filled out their last will and testament, which was like them joining the army, basically, dedicating themselves to the war against who?
Against the United States as revenge for backing Israel for their sins in Lebanon.
And then it was just a couple of months later that bin Laden put out his first declaration of war.
Get this.
It's called Declaration of War Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places.
Pretty subtle, right?
And anyway, in there, he goes on at length about Operation Grapes of Wrath and the Khana massacre.
And he says, we'll never forget the severed heads and arms and legs of the babies and the children there.
And we're going to get our revenge against you.
And that was why Mohammed Atta and Ramzi bin al-Shib decided to travel to Afghanistan and go and get recruited into the September 11th plot.
You can read all about it in the book Perfect Soldiers by Terry McDermott, a great LA Times reporter.
And that was their primary motive.
Egyptian engineering students studying in Germany suicide bombed our attack, you know, kamikaze airplane attacked our towers to get revenge for what Israel was doing in Lebanon.
Now, instead of telling your mama that, George Bush said they hate freedom.
They hate honesty and apple pie and Christianity and white skin and freedom and happiness.
And faced with such an implacable and irrational, religiously motivated enemy, we have no choice but to go to total war from now on, he said.
Now, we all know now that that was just a total lie.
Bill Clinton was still backing these terrorists in Chechnya and in Macedonia, in Kosovo, right up until the attack.
They were still, you know, Britain, Saudi, and America were still playing games with these al-Qaeda guys all through the 90s.
They'd been attacking us since 1990.
Bill Clinton was still backing them anyway.
And they pretended all of this stuff because they couldn't just tell us the truth.
That, ah, some of our policies in the Middle East have angered the terrorists we've been backing in Chechnya lately.
And by the way, a few of those hijackers had fought in Bosnia for Bill Clinton's side too, when America had backed Al-Qaeda in the war in Bosnia.
So they do this all the time.
You know, they did this with Pearl Harbor.
You take your red pill.
FDR deliberately provoked Pearl Harbor and then deliberately turned a blind eye and allowed it to happen.
And then, as the great historian Robert Higgs says, every other historian, what they do is they truncate the antecedents.
In other words, World War II started when Japan attacked us at Pearl Harbor, right?
When, no, what really happened was FDR put a massive embargo on oil and steel for the deliberate purpose of provoking them into attacking us.
As Secretary of War Stimson said in his diary, by all means, they must be maneuvered into firing the first shot.
And that was what they did.
And they kept Kimmel and Short, the admiral and general in charge out at Pearl Harbor, out of the loop of intelligence and let them get nailed and then scapegoated them and blamed it all on them.
Just as long as I'm up here ranting about things, that's the way FDR did it.
And that's what they do.
They truncate the antecedents.
They don't tell you what happened before the thing that happened.
And remember this, by the way, as long as I'm ranting all this great stuff.
In 2007, the spring of 07 was the famous Ron Paul Giuliani moment when Ron Paul said September 11th was motivated, the hijackers were motivated by American foreign policy.
And Rudy Giuliani said, how dare you?
I demand you take that back.
That's the craziest thing I ever heard.
And Ron Paul said, no, sir.
The CIA coined the term blowback.
It means the long-term consequences of their foreign policy.
And everyone knows it's true.
We all remember the 1990s.
Bill Clinton had been bombing Iraq from bases in Saudi Arabia for 10 years before they hit us on 9-11.
And that's why it happened.
And people everywhere, by the millions, by the tens of millions, Americans went, whoa, you know what?
I think that's right.
That sounds right to me.
I remember Bill Clinton bombing Iraq all the time.
And then the next day he did a press conference with the former chief of the CIA's bin Laden unit saying, yep, you're damn right.
That's what happened.
All right.
Was America built him up?
Then America stabbed him in the back and turned him against us.
And then our government lied.
George Bush literally said they hate our freedom.
That was the motive of the attack, which if you play that out, think about how absurd that is.
In America, where it's a super majority Christian nation and where we also have millions of Jews and Buddhists and Muslims, two to three million American Muslims who go to whatever mosque they want to, Sunni or Shia or Sufi or Hanafi or whatever they want to do, wherever they want.
They build their own mosque on their own property, wherever they want, as long as they don't try to build it in downtown Manhattan.
Bill Crystal will go after them.
But otherwise, Muslims in America are protected by the First Amendment just as well as everybody else.
There's never been an anti-Muslim pogrom in America ever.
And now I'm supposed to believe that's what bin Laden hates about us, huh?
Is that our super duper majority Christian society is willing to tolerate millions of Muslims praying and living and working in peace among us.
Yeah, I think it must probably be support for Israel blowing little kids' heads off in Lebanon and Bill Clinton blowing little kids' heads off in Iraq, especially since that's what they said they were motivated by, you know.
And so I kind of, so to wrap this up, though, and to explain, you know, the solution, I am blown away that when I say I've taken a centrist position on this, what I mean is I think I'm a non-interventionist.
So I just don't think that the United States obviously needs to be getting involved in this.
I think if you look at some of these tweets by members of our own government, I'm going to see if I can bring them up, including, like I said, Jim Jordan, who is saying we must give Israel the time, space, and resources they need to destroy Hamas.
I happen to respectfully disagree with that.
And also our favorite warmonger, Dan Crenshaw, has said this will not be a fleeting conflict in Israeli-Palestinian saga.
This looks like it'll be particularly the war to end all wars.
That is very interesting wording because that has been used so many times to fuel conflicts that were completely avoidable.
But what I'm shocked about, and I'm genuinely concerned about, is when I say, yeah, centrist, it doesn't mean they don't have an opinion.
It doesn't mean I'm being a fence sitter.
It means that I'm looking at a situation that's not America.
It's not my country.
These are not my people.
I am not ethnically or religiously Jewish.
I am not ethnically or religiously Muslim or Arab.
I have no connection to the Semitic people at all, besides my wife.
But other than that, we raise our kid, Christian, and we're not even involved in that.
So whatever.
But looking down the line, I'm trying to understand this, and I've made points.
You know, I go, hey, what Hamas did is A, horrible and should be condemned.
B, you should try to understand why someone would do something horrible.
C, the way Israel's treated the Palestinians is horrible and should be condemned.
And D, if I had a, or four, if I had an answer, you know, for this, like, so you don't have a solution.
Look, man, the last time a guy came up with a final solution to something, it didn't end well.
So it's not like I have, it's not like I'm going to come up here and just say, yeah, yeah, here's my answer.
The only way that Israel can behave this way is because of the moral hazard of American support, right?
The international law says they have to get all their settlers out of the West Bank, right?
UN Security Council resolutions dating back since the 67 war say you have to withdraw everybody out of the occupied territories.
You can't do that.
It's a war crime.
And the only thing that allows them to get away with violating every other international norm when it comes to this stuff is American protection.
So if America would just butt out, they would have to figure out a better way to proceed or a much worse one.
But I think that that's much less likely.
You know, same thing.
If it wasn't for the Americans, the Europeans also, I think, would back off their support for the worst of what Israel has in mind here.
And so I think non-interventionism and let the people of the Middle East work it out themselves is probably the best solution.
You know, because what happens is, you know, take Lithuania at the start, well, right around, well, like a year and a half ago, I guess, at the start of the Ukraine war, Lithuania started blocking Russian concrete and steel supplies being shipped to Kaliningrad, this little Russian strip of territory landlocked away from Russia.
I mean, it's on the Baltic Sea, but it's on the other side of Belarus and Lithuania from Russia.
And so they have this corridor by railway.
And the Lithuanians started enforcing sanctions on the railway.
And the Americans actually told them, knock it off.
Don't cause this problem.
And so they did.
But in the meantime, they told the New York Times, the defense minister, I believe it was, of Lithuania, told the New York Times, he said, look, we would never be so bold to take on Russia this way if America wasn't supporting us.
But since you are, we're taking the opportunity really to stick to them as much as we can, right?
That's moral hazard, right?
Like when Alan Greenspan promises to bail out a bank or when the older brother promises to beat up the little brothers, you know, the boys he's fighting with in the neighborhood or something like that.
It gives them incentive to do worse.
And so we should knock that off.
Hell, look, we started backing off out of Saudi a little bit and China swooped right in and made a peace deal between Saudi and Iran.
Now, who prefers George W. Bush's Sunni-Shia sectarian war, the two or three million dead the last 20 years to that?
Not me.
You know, so I think, honestly, look, man, we should, even if you believe in the whole Cold War against the Soviet Union, that was over 30 years ago.
The middle part of North America should not be the world empire.
We can't do it.
We can't afford it.
Our government completely sucks at it.
And look at the chaos that they've wrought in the Middle East, in Europe, and working on Asia now.
You know, as we close this out and talk about this, it is really, really interesting.
It is really interesting the amount of, like I mentioned earlier, friends and relationships that I've lost, not because of things that I thought I would have lost them over, but because of just holding like incorrect political opinions.
I mean, I have put out polls on the internet just asking people if they believed in certain conspiracies.
And there are people now that I know that won't even shake my hand because I asked the public a question.
And it's really alarming to me how disillusioning it is to realize that for years you sort of worked a career to build up and help support a infrastructure and a media apparatus that is keeping people trapped in the same thinking you thought you were fighting, right?
And it is really hard to see.
And when you break out of that, people start to call you a lot of names.
They start to try to pigeonhole you, label you, and isolate you so that your voice can't be heard.
Now, unironically, I've never been doing better.
I've never had more opportunities.
I've just got a really good opportunity offered my way too.
I basically don't, I have too much, too much, too many offers to take them all.
I've remained completely independent.
And that's given me a voice now to be able to say exactly what I want.
Yeah, I have some contracts with people, but they don't control what I say.
I'm not a W-2 employee.
And I contribute, and that's different.
They cannot publish what I send them, but I send them whatever I want.
And that's a freedom.
You obviously, to plug your website, you run, let me see if I can bring it up here.
You run this anti-war.com.
Sorry for my crop, guys.
This is not his website.
This is my fault here.
You can actually go to it, antiwar.com.
You can follow him on X as well.
Tell us a little bit about this website.
What it persists.
That's A-A-N-T-I or news.antiwar.com.
Or you can just go to anti-war.com, I think, right?
And then news is all of our in-house guys, news summaries.
If you go to news.
And then there's also original.antiwar.com is all of our regular contributors.
And the site's been around since 1995.
It was founded in opposition to Bill Clinton's intervention in Bosnia.
And then they really made their big break opposing his war in Kosovo in 1999.
Formerly, our head writer was the great Justin Raimondo, who was the author of Reclaiming the American Right, the lost legacy of the American conservative movement.
And, you know, well, and we just got an absolutely fantastic collection of columnists and our staff.
Our opinion editor, Kyle Anzalone, picks the very best views from all across the spectrum.
You know, we're all libertarians that run the place, but we, you know, feature the very best of the left and the right on foreign policy and always have.
He's retired now, but we've always been very close with Pat Buchanan, for example, as well as Daniel Ellsberg and lots of other people.
Ron Paul, of course.
As you can see, the bust in the picture behind me there.
We're Ron Paul folk, you know, at our core.
And then also, and I'm the editorial director there.
I don't want to take too much credit for the site.
It's Dave DeCamp and Kyle Anzalone and Eric Garris are the real champions that make that thing go there.
And then I'm also the director of the Libertarian Institute.
And we've got a bunch of great podcasts and a bunch of great writers.
We specialize in foreign policy, but also a lot of other libertarian topics.
And we publish books, including my own, about the terror wars.
And we're about to publish Jim Bovard and Tom Woods new books.
And so we're really excited about that.
Tom Woods has a new one all about COVID, the COVID lockdown regime and all of that kind of stuff.
So, all that's at libertarianinstitute.org.
And then at scotthorton.org, I got almost 6,000 interviews.
It's 5,950-something now, I believe, at scotthorton.org, going back to 2003.
And that's my podcast.
And it's essentially all foreign policy stuff.
And right now, Elijah, I'm working on a book that so far is 1,100 and something pages long that I'm going to have to figure out how to cut way down.
That's called Provoked, How America Started the New Cold War with Russia and the Catastrophe in Ukraine.
So that'll be the enough already of Eastern Europe here for you.
Well, thank you so much to my guest, Scott Horton.
Guys, if you're watching the show, remember, we're demonetized everywhere.
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I just want to give a huge shout out to one of the live chats today from MJ.
She said $25 and said the Middle East is hard to understand.
Very complex.
Thank you very much for this informative show.
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It means a lot to me and it is a great responsibility.
As again, we are completely independent.
We're working with people.
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But it's been a very, very, very interesting year.
And we've never given up.
And it's been thanks to you guys and your support.
Don't forget to check out my guest.
Follow him on X or Twitter, whatever the hell you want to call it.
Check out his website.
And as we close out, I'm going to give him one last moment to just plug anything else places where you can follow him and find him and continue to get more information as he is a brilliant mind, has spoken to many other brilliant minds.
And we have such a humble pleasure to have him on the show.
So Scott, just any last places that people want to find you and follow you on social media if they want to keep up with your work.
