Is it a joke, or do they actually love murderers?
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What do you mean, or the difference between somebody who, let's say, is in cell and somebody who's just not sexually active for other reasons like choice of religion, maybe an awkward personality or a mental disorder that prevents them from communicating well like autism?
Well, there are, you know, there are people like that, of course.
In fact, you know, an incel in Toronto, Alec Minosian, he in 2018 rammed his car onto a sidewalk in Toronto and killed 10 people.
And he was, he didn't kill himself.
He went to trial.
And he, his defense was, he was trying for a not guilty by reason of insanity defense.
He didn't get that, but his defense was that he had autism, that he had been diagnosed with autism.
And so in the end, he got life in prison, but with the possibility of parole after 25 years.
So, you know, and yes, there are certainly lots of nerds who get rejected.
Not all of them kill four, you know, college students or ram them with their car.
And so clearly there has to be some other psychological issue in addition to that, or that in fact makes it harder for them to have a relationship with a woman.
So what are the dangers, would you say, in connection to this with the incel community?
Because I feel like there's a version of people on the internet that, you know, the same people that will call anyone an incel that, let's just say, you know, leans towards the right or is sort of a pro-male are the same kind of people on the other side who would call anyone who's, you know, leans another way a fascist or, you know, the right wing will call anyone a communist.
These are sometimes extreme words that are misidentifiers.
So with the term incel, do you feel like it's an extremist label?
And if it's if it is or isn't, which I'm not really concerned, you know, which way we go here, why is it appropriate to apply this suggestion to the suspect himself?
Like, why is it significant that he would be an incel outside of the fact that he just didn't like women?
Well, first of all, you know, I guess there are people who use that term pejoratively, like they can use any, lots of other terms pejoratively.
Certainly as a forensic psychiatrist, I am not using it pejoratively.
The reason why I started mentioning it early on in particular was because I wanted to try to help the police, FBI, and so on solve the crime.
So I was trying to talk about what to look for, what kind of person to look for.
And I gave a whole list of things to look for.
And one of them was that after the crime, this, the killer, would change his personality.
Whereas he might have been somewhat of an introvert beforehand.
He would then be more animated and more talkative because he did something that he was proud of.
He had a conquest, so to speak.
And in fact, some of the students in his class in Washington State University said that, that he had been, he always has this face that sort of doesn't move, right?
But they said that after the crime, and they didn't suspect that he was the killer, of course, but looking back at it, he was more animated and more talkative and so on after the crime.
You know, we've unearthed some of his past posts that he's had online where he talks about having visual snow, migraines, buzzing in the ear, delusions of grandeur, depersonalization, no emotion.
I mean, as a forensic psychologist, as looking into these kinds of things, does this not sound like schizophrenia or some sort of deep mental disturbance?
If not, what are we seeing with these self-diagnoses?
It's interesting that he made that he wrote those posts about 10 years ago.
You know, if it had been a little sooner, a little bit more recent, it would look like he was purposely writing those things to go to try to go for a not guilty by reason of insanity defense.
Of course, in Idaho, they don't have that defense per se, but they do allow people, they do allow defendants to have expert witnesses, you know, psychiatrists or psychologists as expert witnesses to try to introduce mediating factors or whatever.
But why, what was the, tell me that question again.
Oh, I'm saying, I'm saying, I mean, yeah, are these not alluding to the fact that he may not like, it may not be incel or other forces driving him to have done this, but perhaps a greater mental disturbance like schizophrenia?
I mean, I'm not a doctor, and so I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but these sound alarming to be to be stated so long ago and to not be at least considered as reasons why he might have gone mad.
I think, you know, incels do, I think that they do have, as I was saying before, under other psychiatric issues underlying the, well, let me, no, let me put it a different way.
The ones that the incels who, not all incels kill, you know, let's first of all, but the ones who do kill and have these very violent kinds of kills or more than one person, you know, it certainly does seem like they have an underlying psychiatric disorder on top of or that predisposed them to be awkward, you know, when he was in school.
Why did the women or girls in his high school, you know, start bullying him to begin with and rejecting him and all that?
You know, Elliot, the first incel that I was talking about, he was a fairly good looking guy.
His father had a lot of money.
He was a Hollywood producer.
He had a fancy car.
You know, he had things that one might expect women to at least give him the time of day.
But the women were able to see that there was something creepy about him.
And that's what women have said about Brian Koberger, that there was something creepy about him.
So it's not necessarily, you know, the incels online talk about, they talk a lot about how it has to do with their looks.
They focus primarily on their looks, also money.
But and they, so they say that it's genetics, that some people are born to be incels if they're not good looking enough.
In other words, so that women would, you know, typically reject them.
But yes, I think there is something underneath that caused him to be awkward and creepy, you know, in the first place.
And, you know, I do, I am concerned, though, going back a little bit into his college years.
I know he's a student teacher in Pullman, Washington.
He'd access to a lot of young girls, from my understanding, and he'd a certain level of psychological dominance over them in terms of that parent-student relationship.
You know, like you're obviously going to a teacher because you think they know what's right or they have the answers that you're looking for, the education, and he's being their superior.
How do you think that plays in the psychological profile of the suspect?
And how do you think those relationships might have affected him in the way that he ended up allegedly taking revenge or as we'll get to whatever the motive was on these individuals?
Well, you know, he wanted to be, this is the other part of his dynamics, psychodynamics that's so interesting.
He wanted to be, well, really, what his end game, I think, was that he wanted to be a notorious killer who someone would write a book about and who the students in criminology would ultimately be studying, just like they're studying the BTK killer and so on.
They'd be studying him.
That was his end game.
That's what he really wanted.
But on the other hand, and so he was trying to learn how to commit the perfect crime.
But on the other hand, I think he was aware of his murderous impulses for quite some time.
And he was also, you know, going into criminology because he wanted, well, first psychology in undergrad and then criminology because he wanted to understand himself and sort of calm these murderous impulses.
So he was fighting with himself.
You know, do I want to calm my murderous impulses or do I want to become the most notorious killer that they're going to read about?
And so for the students, and yeah, there were more women who were in his grad school in Washington State University.
It was kind of interesting.
The class was mostly women.
I think there were 24 in the class and five of them were men.
So he obviously would have had more women students under him.
You know, in a sense, that gave him, like, it was, it would be not likely that he would attack them because in a sense, he already had power over them because he was their TA.
And they talked about how he, when he was a T before the crime, when he was a TA at Washington State University, he used to grade papers very harshly.
And he used to write mean things on the papers to the students.
And then after the crime, he didn't.
He didn't write anything and he didn't give his bad grades, which is, it's, you know, it's another interesting aspect.
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