Slightly Offensive - Elijah Schaffer - White Leftist Battles Black Veteran Cop on Racist Policing | C-TMZ

April 21, 2021 - Slightly Offensive - Elijah Schaffer

01:16:47

White Leftist Battles Black Veteran Cop on Racist Policing | C-TMZ | Ep 146

Former police officer Brandon Tatum, leftist livestreamer Vaush, former conservative YouTuber turned centrist Hunter Avallone, and up and coming right-wing populist YouTuber Red Eagle battle it out over systemic racism and policing. It wasn't all disagreements, and the conclusion may actually surprise you.

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	I'm glad are you still are you still a police officer?
	Because you seem really bad at handling crisis.
	I think you'd be probably shit.
	You shot me dead at the time.
	I'm talking to little boys right now, bro.
	You're not a crisis.
	Yeah, says the guy that's been using a childish argument the entire time.
	Let's just start telling people not to do things that are bad, guys.
	With the end of the Chauvin trial, obviously there are a lot of questions about what's on the horizon for American society.
	Are riots going to occur?
	Well, I can tell you one thing for sure.
	There have been a lot of riots and tons of civil unrest already from 2020.
	And I would say the situation between policing, minority communities, and just civil unrest in general hasn't really progressed at all.
	The conversation continues as people are at odds and more divided than ever, which is why I brought on an amazing group of panelists who are joining me on the show today for another episode of Conserva TMZ.
	We have Brandon Tatum, who is a former police officer.
	He's co-founder of Blexit and founder and CEO at the Officertatum.com.
	Brandon, thank you for coming on.
	Thanks for having me.
	My pleasure.
	Awesome.
	We also have Readygold Patriot.
	He's a YouTuber, political commentator, and conservative strategist.
	Thanks, Jack, for coming on.
	Yep, no problem.
	And of course, we have Hunter Avalon, old friend of mine as well and YouTuber.
	He's a former conservative, turned centrist.
	And he also has a great YouTube channel, talks about social politics.
	Hunter, welcome on the show.
	Thank you, Elijah.
	And then I know you guys probably know this.
	I've been on a show with Vosh before.
	We've talked online.
	Vosh is a libertarian socialist, anti-fascist, and live streamer.
	Vosh, welcome to Slightly Offensive.
	Happy to be here.
	Sorry about the glitchy camera.
	It's the mysteries evade the best tech people in my audience.
	Just pretend that I'm speaking to you from the future.
	Hey, you know what?
	The glitch is fine as long as the audio is good.
	So I always like to start out after just introducing you guys to the audience to give you a chance to basically try to explain your political views in about a minute.
	So we'll start with Brandon.
	Brandon, can you explain your political views and also add in there if you support Blue Lives Matter, Black Lives Matter, both or neither?
	I was a former Democrat.
	I grew up a Democrat.
	I was raised that if you're Black, you're a Democrat.
	I woke up out of that process in 2016.
	I've been a Trump supporter, a conservative.
	I'm a Christian.
	And that's pretty much where I lay my foundation.
	Also, I'm a Blue Lives Matter person.
	I support the police.
	I also believe in Black Lives, but I do not support Black Lives Matter as an organization, although I do believe that Black people matter, and I do care deeply about black people as well as all other Americans.
	Vosh, what is your political background?
	Well, I'm a libertarian socialist.
	I'd say that my ideology is principally around giving people as much freedom as possible, freedom to do what they will and freedom as much as is possible to avoid consequences for actions which don't harm others.
	I'm certainly in favor of Black Lives Matter.
	I think that if you take a look at the evidence in the history of policing in this country, while there are certainly vital services that police provide, and I would never deny the efficacy of those services, the fact remains that there are many problems with our policing system, evident and objective problems.
	And those problems represent themselves disproportionately.
	They affect some communities worse than they do others.
	So my interest primarily is in supporting Black Lives Matter, is making sure that there's some sort of broader public awakening to these issues and that they are addressed in the best possible ways.
	I think that what's happening right now is a step in the right direction, never a perfect one, but a good one nonetheless.
	Awesome.
	Jack?
	I would say that I'm a conservative populist.
	I'm definitely right-wing on a good amount of issues, even though I do have my disagreements with the Republican Party and the Republican establishment on a few issues.
	But in terms of policing, I'd probably say that I oppose Black Lives Matter and the movement and a lot of what it stands for.
	I do believe Black people matter, as Brandon said.
	In terms of the police, I do agree that there are some things that I think that I do have a distrusting with the police in.
	But overall, I would say that I'm on the pro-police side of things, especially in regards to this issue.
	Awesome, Hunter.
	Yeah, I actually don't think this necessarily has to be a either or thing.
	I think that Black Lives Matter, the movement, not so much the organization, but the movement, which I do support.
	I think that it aims to address systemic issues, systemic racism, and systemic issues with our police force.
	I want to make this really clear at the beginning of this talk that my goal is not to incriminate police officers as racist, evil people.
	But rather, I think if we truly want to support our officers and back the blue, as we say, we need to be willing to address the broken police system.
	I think that there are plenty of officers who are good people, who do want to serve their communities.
	And although there is a police culture, like a cultural police issue as well that we'll probably talk about, I think the majority of police officers are probably trying to do what's best.
	But that's what's so disheartening to me is it kind of upsets me that these good officers are manipulated by a broken system to essentially deliver racist results regardless of intent.
	And so, yes, I do believe that there is a disproportionate treatment when it comes to how police treat black people as opposed to white people.
	I think that this is borne out pretty clearly in the data.
	There is just so much overwhelming consensus that there is a systemic issue here.
	So yes, I think that we need to rather just address the underlying systemic issues and we can also fix the police issues as well.
	Awesome, guys.
	Well, before we jump into the first major question, I really appreciate that.
	You guys get a good background on them.
	I want to give a huge shout out to the sponsor of today's show.
	This is Bag of Coffee.
	I know we've talked a lot about coffee companies, but this is honestly one that I not only love the coffee, but the owner as well is amazing.
	And I got to talk to you about them today.
	So Bag of Coffee is a veteran-owned business, and that's pretty awesome as well.
	We're talking about first responders.
	We're talking for people who put their lives on the line.
	This man is legit.
	I think he's awesome, the owner, and I love the people that he employs.
	And on top of that, though, you're going, well, that's cool.
	There's a lot of great people.
	Why should I buy this coffee?
	Well, number one, this bag of coffee is a 100% Arabica BOC blend.
	It does not stand for bag of cocks, even though there's a cock on the front of the bag.
	It actually stands for bag of coffee, which I got confused on.
	But even better, it consists of Mexican, Ethiopian, and Honduran beans roasted to perfection by award-winning macro roasters in a recycled heat roaster.
	This produces probably the best, most consistent roast and flavor profile I've ever had in my life.
	It is delicious.
	It's a great way to start the morning.
	And you can even grind up the beans and get ground or whole bean.
	You can put it in your Keurig, reusable pod, whatever you want.
	This company supports you.
	They support free speech.
	And most importantly, if you go to bagofcoffeecompany.com, you can get 5% off your order by using the code SOB.
	That's S-O-B.
	But if you subscribe, you can also get an extra 5% off as well.
	So you get 10% off the damn best bag of coffee in America.
	Honestly, it's delicious.
	They support us, support free speech.
	Go to bagofcoffeecompany.com.
	Use code SOB to get up to 10% off after you subscribe.
	This is the best coffee.
	Please get it today.
	So I want to jump into this.
	I know, Brandon, you are a former police officer.
	So I want to ask you this question.
	In general, what are your thoughts on the police?
	And do you feel like the policing system is racist?
	I don't think that policing is racist at all.
	I think policing is probably the least racist organization probably in our system.
	I think they get a bad rap.
	I think political pundits have an agenda to push.
	And so they push only the narratives that they want to see put forward.
	If you look at the numbers, white people get killed more than black people do by police.
	White people get shot more unarmed than black people do by police.
	You know, we hear about George Floyd, but we never hear about Tony Tempa, who died in a very similar way as George Floyd.
	He didn't get a funeral.
	He don't have a t-shirt and he didn't make the news.
	So in doing this for a living, I mean, I'm not just talking.
	I'm not a pundit.
	I've experienced it on a day-to-day basis.
	Most police officers want to go home to their families.
	Most police officers could give or care less what color of your skin.
	Anybody can have a gun.
	Anybody can kill you.
	And everybody commits crimes.
	So that's just my take on it as a former police officer.
	Vosh, what are your thoughts?
	Well, unlike Mr. Tatum, I don't think that a person's race determines which beliefs they can or cannot hold.
	When it comes to policing, we're not talking about the individual bias of police officers here, though that does play a factor.
	There are racist people.
	What we're talking about is a system, an institution, which begets unbiased results.
	We have the largest prison population of any country on earth, both proportionally and in absolute numbers.
	We're certainly doing something spectacular here.
	And when you look at the numbers, whether you're talking at the policing level, at the judicial level with regards to sentencing or the actual incarceration, there are certain groups of people in this country who are disproportionately targeted.
	I think it's very unproductive to look for little data snipes.
	Oh, well, white people suffer in this respect and nobody talks about that.
	Sure, let's talk about that more then.
	There are white people, especially poor white people, who are also targeted by the police in massively unfair ways.
	I'm just looking at the broader trend and what can be done to address that.
	For example, the elimination of the drug war.
	It'd be a pretty simple, easy policy to get rid of.
	It's done nothing but cost the United States tens of billions of dollars and it's led to the incredible police state that we live in today.
	That's a good policy that I can get behind.
	Is that specifically targeting black or white people?
	No, but there's no denying the consequences of the drug war have disproportionately targeted some communities.
	And depending on whether or not you believe or disbelieve some of the testimony surrounding the Nixon administration, it seems as though that policy may have been invoked specifically to beget racial animus.
	So it's really up to do you want to address the problems we have in our society or do you feel a desire to defend groups that you already like?
	And for me, I would rather push for freedom.
	I would rather push for opportunity.
	Hunter, what are your thoughts?
	Yeah, I do think it's a little bit interesting that Brandon's opening statement was on how all his life he was told because he was black, he had to be a Democrat.
	He made it pretty abundantly clear in the intro that he's against identity politics, but yet his first argument is invoking identity politics and suggesting that because me and Vosh are white people, we somehow don't have a good understanding of the police system.
	Brandon, the fact that you're a former police officer honestly terrifies me in the greatest respect.
	The fact that you would say this institution is the least racist institution is just laughable.
	Like those are such bold claims that are just triumphed by so many different data points.
	I'd like to point out this one.
	This was an analysis on LAPD searches.
	Brown people were searched more, even though white people had contraband at higher rates.
	White and brown police officers also closely mirrored the racial LA population.
	So even though the police force was made up of racially diverse people, the system was still delivering racist results.
	So I reject your like kind of application of identity politics there to begin with.
	And then, yeah, for you to say that there is no racist outcomes or anything from police system just isn't backed up.
	That's literally one analysis of the LAPD.
	I'd be happy to send you maybe 10 or 15 more in multiple different states as well, if you're interested.
	Damn, I'm going to give you Brandon a chance to respond to that before we go to Jack.
	Good.
	Good.
	Awesome.
	So I wasn't playing identity politics.
	People are saying that black people are disproportionately affected.
	I'm a black person in America and I have experiences.
	So how would you know how black people are being affected?
	Because I don't care what your experiences are.
	That's your problem right there.
	Let me finish speaking, please.
	Inside or outside of your statistical data.
	I mean, if you look at any of the statistics that you are trying to bring up, you know, there's a lot of underlying reasons why black people are being patrolled more than anybody else.
	The government don't just go out and say, I want a black person and we're just going to put them in jail.
	You have to commit crimes to go to jail.
	So if you're committing crimes, you're going to go to jail.
	And just because black people are disproportionately represented in the prison system doesn't mean that they're being targeted.
	That means that they're committing more crimes.
	And when you commit more crimes, you get patrolled more.
	And when you patrol more, you go to jail more.
	Those things aren't that much.
	That's the root of the question, though, right?
	Yeah.
	Why do they commit more crimes?
	Why do you like it?
	That has nothing to do with the system in police.
	That has something to do with parenting, that has something to do with the way you were raised.
	No, that's wrong.
	Why?
	Okay.
	You say that, but what I'm saying is that the reason why I'm not a drug dealer, the reason why I'm not a drug dealer, the reason why I don't go through those things, even though I grew up in the hood, even though I grew up around drug dealers, is because my parents made a decision to raise me in a different fashion.
	So I grew up making positive decisions.
	Other people that I know who are in prison, which are my family, some of my family members, they made decisions that were not positive.
	That's how they end up going to prison.
	It's not because I'm inherently black that somehow the cops are coming to get me.
	I'd like to jump in.
	Wait, Hunter, one second, really quickly.
	Again, Brandon, you're sort of attacking a straw man.
	Nobody's saying police are just seeing black people and arresting them for no reason.
	We're aware that you have to commit a crime to go to jail.
	The ultimate argument that this runs down, of course, is why do black people seem to commit more crimes?
	Well, is it because of parenting decisions?
	Sure.
	Why do the parents make worse decisions?
	What conditions beget these situations?
	Culture.
	And if you run it down far enough, at the end of the day, it comes down to a fundamental income disparity between black and white people that's existed since.
	Well, sure, but what does culture come from?
	Do you think that culture created an income divide?
	When you say income divide, you know, you got to be more specific.
	Are you saying an income divide because of education?
	Are you saying an income divide because people are choosing not to go into certain places?
	In the United States, the household income or the household wealth of a white family is approximately 40 times that of the average black family.
	If you take a look at the mean income.
	So do you think that's a product of black people's choices?
	Or do you think that historical conditions may have led to a difference in the average wealth that might then lead to other socioeconomic issues?
	Yeah, I think that's a good question.
	Like the availability of quality schooling.
	Yeah, I think that I think some of them are historically said, but I think majority of what's happening today is people's decision making, right?
	If you take school seriously and you get an education, you will be relatively successful.
	If you don't have children out of wedlock and have children before you're married, I mean, you'll do better.
	And when I grew up in an all-black neighborhood, I know what people think.
	By and large, black people do not value education like other races.
	When I was in school, when I was in school, it's culture.
	When I was in school, why is the culture like that?
	Let me button here real fast.
	Sorry, Brandon, let me give Jack a chance to just interject here because obviously this conversation is going to the point that it's not obvious that policing isn't just inherently racist.
	There's other aspects.
	But to kind of circle back on both of these conversations, Jack, what are your thoughts?
	Well, I think that in regards to the income disparity, I think it's very important to look at things like spending patterns.
	And there's been studies conducted on this that found that blacks are up to 32% more spending on luxury goods and 17% less on education on average when you adjust for all the other factors.
	And the same study conducted by Cameron Hughes, I believe, proved that at least 20% of the racial wealth gap can be attributed to this.
	And there's differences in spending in terms of differences in saving in terms of income.
	And when you adjust for all the factors, a study conducted showed that whites saved more in 2015.
	So as to why the culture is the way it is, it's just the way it is.
	I don't really know what caused the specific culture.
	It is possible that certain events that have happened in the past, but the truth is that segregation has not happened since 1965.
	And the fact that the culture seems to be getting worse in terms of things like the fatherlessness rates, it's going up three times what it was before, despite the fact that even like the incarceration rates have remained relatively the same since then.
	I just, I really fail to see where it's necessarily not personal choice in any capacity when we have these facts that back that point up.
	May I jump in on that very quickly?
	Yeah.
	Hey, by the way, guys, feel free to just jump in.
	Feel free to just jump in.
	And as long as you're respectful for each other, you don't got to wait for me to call on you.
	Gotcha.
	So again, this isn't about, we're not talking about individual choice not mattering.
	At the end of the day, we're all made up of individual choices.
	What we're saying is that when we're talking about communities of tens of millions of people, patterns emerge that are consequences of given environmental conditions.
	If you take a look at marginalized communities anywhere around the world, I mean anywhere, Muslims in the Kashmiri region in India or Uyghur Muslims in China.
	If you take a look at any marginalized group, you will find that for the most part, I mean overwhelmingly so, they have worse educational attainment.
	They have worse income attainment.
	And the reason for that is because no matter how hard working any individual is, as a group, you are less likely to succeed if your family has less money, if your race has less money.
	So the problem that I have with what you just said, Red Eagle, is this is the hand waving that ignores the underlying problem.
	As for why black culture is worse than white culture, oh, who knows?
	Well, we do know.
	It's really easy socioeconomics.
	The reason why black culture, we're being, of course, a little reductive there, but sure.
	The reason why it is the way it is is because black people have had a very different set of circumstances in America than white people.
	And a lot of that, the only way to fix it is to address those underlying problems.
	We can't just wave our hands of these huge issues that affect so many people and say, oh, well, if they just made better decisions, they would fix it.
	No, that's never in any point in history fixed a huge systemic discrimination problem.
	Well, let's just say that.
	That's not even how we make policy.
	If I could add really.
	Yeah, that's not how we make policy.
	Well, if I could just one last thing really quick.
	The black fatherhood myth is just that a myth.
	It's true that there aren't as many married fathers who live with their kids, but unmarried fathers actually live with their children about as much as white people do.
	I was going to say that.
	These are numbers that people can always fluff the numbers and make them match what they want.
	Oh, God, we're already getting into intelligence.
	I'm just saying.
	When I was growing up, when I was growing up, none of my cousins had their fathers actively involved in their lives.
	As a police officer, every juvenile, every single one, no matter what color they were, every juvenile that I arrested didn't have a father in their home.
	So people might be biased there.
	Because you're arrested.
	Listen, listen to what I'm saying.
	There could be, you know, people can use the numbers and say, well, the fathers are in the home, but just because you're in the home don't mean you're active.
	They don't mean you're actively participating in your child's life.
	Most people who are married have a commitment to one another and they live and they're consistently together.
	They're not breaking up and they're not breaking up in, you know, every five weeks, five minutes.
	So you have a married couples and you can look at it in black race, you can look at the white race.
	Married couples tend to do better, tend to have better outcomes, familiar outcomes, and all of those things.
	People who are not married are not doing the same thing.
	Just because you're a baby daddy and you're at the house or you're staying with them temporarily doesn't mean that you are focused on it.
	I'd like to cite something really quickly from a Vox article citing a CDC data set.
	Blow cited CDC data that showed black fathers are more likely than their white and Hispanic counterparts to feed, eat with, bathe, diaper, dress, play with, and read to their children on a daily basis.
	While some of the differences in the data aren't statistically significant, the figures indicate black dads are at least as likely to remain involved in their children's lives as those of other races.
	So I think you might be falling to selection bias there.
	I think you're far more likely to be a lot of people.
	There's a Pew research study.
	I think the big problem here really comes from the fact that, Brandon, you're making a lot of appeals to your own anecdotes, which I understand that you can form your own opinions based on your own experiences.
	But when we're talking about overwhelming, like overall political issues here, you can't really form those opinions on your own personal experience.
	I'm sorry that you knew someone who's a lot of people.
	There's no difference between black people married at 20%.
	Listen, black people having a market already.
	I literally didn't say there was no difference.
	Listen to what I'm saying.
	Black people had a marriage rate of about 20%.
	I mean, they were unmarried 20%.
	Now it's 70%.
	We're not talking about their marriage rate.
	No, no, whatever fathers are in that.
	This is what I'm saying.
	You can say they're not.
	These people are not.
	You can't survey every single person, 40 million black people in this country.
	Brandon, are you seriously suggesting that your anecdotes are more worthwhile than CDC?
	Let me get in here.
	Let me jump in here real fast, Brandon, one second.
	And let me see.
	Jackie.
	This is embarrassing already.
	Well, they're saying this, but Jack, you said you had something from Pew.
	I wanted to hear that actually.
	There was a Pew research study that was conducted that showed that more than half of black children live with just one single parent.
	This is not talking about unmarried fathers because, yes, it is true.
	Over us, I believe 70% of black children are born out of wedlock.
	However, only 54% of black children live in a fatherless home.
	And this basically shows, if you look at the data, that it's a 54% compared to whites, which are just at 19%.
	Now, this gap used to be a lot closer than it is now.
	It's gotten worse as the years have gone on.
	It was, you know, 35 to 18.
	Now it looks like it's 54 to 19 looking at the data.
	So that is a massive increase.
	And I don't think that that is a statistically insignificant data point, even though in those other unmarried homes, you could say the fathers are more involved in their lives.
	It still, I don't think, is enough to make up for the whole difference.
	So let me give an example of what this may look like.
	I mean, we need to talk about what this looks like to have a father in a home that's not your father not married to your mama.
	And so if you look at the history, just myself in general, you can interview anybody else that you're going to be doing.
	Jeez, no, this is just a waste of time.
	I can't agree.
	I can say.
	Brandon, hold on.
	Wait, can we actually make arguments and not tell stories?
	I'm making an argument because you need to be able to say that.
	This isn't an argument.
	This is your own story.
	This is your own personal life.
	This is typical involvement with parents in homes.
	OK, if you're a parent, listen, I tell my story next.
	Can you.
	Can you listen and stop talking over me?
	If you are a parent in a home and you're not married, those are circumstances that we need to look into.
	I had my father in my life.
	My father was not married to my mama.
	I had a stepdad.
	So people would say I had a father in the home.
	That man was not a good role model.
	That man was not my father.
	That man had really no involvement.
	Your biological father could be a bad role model.
	So when you look at it and you say the difference between a married couple who are committed to one another, who are involved in each other's lives versus a baby daddy or a boyfriend that comes along that follows the statistical data of saying the guy's in the house, that does not mean that he's committed.
	That does not tell the full story of what's going on.
	Just holding CDC data.
	One second.
	So the example that you just provided, Tatum, kind of suggests that you think there's more inherent worth to a biological father's presence than a stepfather's presence.
	But the fact that you lived with your stepfather and not your father.
	I didn't live with my stepfather.
	I lived with my mom.
	That dude came in.
	Sorry.
	I'm saying that.
	The fact that you live with your biological father kind of indicates, I don't think that the biological relationship is what we're hinging on here.
	What we're really talking about is the extent to which black fathers or black masculine parental figures, step or biological, whatever, are involved in their children's lives.
	Now, there is no denying that having two married parents is the best way to grow up.
	Undeniably, I grew up with two parents.
	I was lucky to have done so.
	I know people who grew up with a single parent.
	I know it's harder.
	I'm not denying that.
	And I know that a lot of black families struggle with this stuff for cultural reasons, for economic reasons.
	I would never deny that.
	I'm only saying sometimes people like to paint this myth of black irresponsibility, which from my experiences with, and admittedly, these are limited, talking with people and reading the data, it seems like a lot of the irresponsibility we see isn't so much individual people choosing to be irresponsible.
	It's people responding to a really unfortunate set of economic circumstances.
	To me, the best way to solve this set of problems, and it is a problem that should be solved, the fatherlessness, the single-parent households, is to work on educational and income attainment.
	To me, reparations or police reform would be good ways of doing this.
	One of the main reasons there are so many fatherless households in the black community is because they have such a disproportionately high rate of being policed.
	Many of these are drug crimes, many of them nonviolent drug crimes.
	Definitely something that should be worked on.
	We've already drugged.
	You know what?
	Before we jump any further, these are all good points.
	And I want to get into this a little more in the way that actually black people are treated by police versus white people and understanding if there is a difference or if that's just something that's exaggerated.
	We're talking a lot about anecdotes, but I want to give a huge shout out to this awesome company that has been sticking by the show and has been really providing, I would say, some fun nights.
	I'm talking about a wine company, but not just a wine company.
	This is a club that sends curated boxes of wines.
	They are chosen specifically and perfect for you.
	A lot of people get confused by wine.
	You don't know where to start.
	You go to like, I don't know, some dinner and you're like, I don't really know what to bring.
	Well, why don't you let an expert help pick wines that you would like and also the people around you would like?
	Because no one wants to drink a bottle of wine alone.
	There are those nights, but also too, this is a tough year.
	And I want to make sure that you get the best wines on your table.
	First Leaf has award-winning wines more than anybody else in this business.
	And there's no guesswork, no misguided recommendations from somebody who's telling you what to get.
	Each wine shipment is entirely customized to your unique palate and preferences.
	And they work directly with the world's best winemakers, not only to find the best wine available, but to pass on that savings to you.
	Right now, you can save up to 60% off of retail and you save your time and money and stress with First Leaf.
	Some of you guys don't want to go and wear masks in stores or whatever.
	Get it shipped to your house.
	Join today and you get six bottles of wine for $29.95 and free shipping.
	Just go to tryfirstleaf.com/slash offensive.
	That's tryfirstleaf.com/slash offensive and get six bottles of wine for $29.95 and free shipping.
	Anyway, go to tryfirstleaf.com/slash offensive.
	I'll tell you personally, I like white wine better than red wine.
	They pick out the best selections of wine.
	Have a bottle right here.
	It's amazing.
	It tastes good.
	It's delicious.
	And I encourage you to try it, sign up today, and get the best wine right curated to your taste.
	All right, guys.
	So let's, as we jump to the next, I got to kind of switch the question here.
	We're kind of talking a lot about the black community, and this is very important.
	Do you think that because we're talking about choices, are there the black community treated differently by police, or does the black community have a systemic crime problem, which is why they're treated or policed more, as people might say?
	Let's go to Hunter.
	I'll take this one.
	Yeah.
	I think that it's both.
	And I'm glad that I get a chance here to talk for just a second because I wanted to say, I really want to point out something, and that is that the close relationship between poverty and crime.
	And a lot of the times we talk about this and people don't really believe that the reason that black people are disproportionately in poverty is because of racist reasons.
	But the reason really can be attributed to a lot of previous racist policies.
	I'm sure most of you are familiar with the policy redlining, which wasn't even done away with until the 1970s, that essentially allowed banks to just discriminate against black neighborhoods.
	They thought that they wouldn't give loans to those people, which completely gypped black people from pursuing the American dream and accumulating wealth.
	And so wealth is generational, whether it's a lack of wealth or wealth in general.
	So we see people who historically were poor still being born into poverty today.
	So that can kind of be linked back to historical policies.
	And like I said, crime follows poverty.
	So since we see black people disproportionately in poverty, we see disproportionate amounts of gang violence and other kinds of criminality.
	We also have the war on drugs, which was another policy that was disproportionately negatively affecting black people, regardless of intent, but that intent was for racist reasons.
	So yeah, I think that it's really just, it's an overwhelming thing that people don't like to talk about.
	It's a lot easier to just point fingers and say, oh, black people stop committing crime or, oh, this, oh, that.
	But what it really comes down to is addressing the poverty gap that is there because of racist reasons.
	And that will reduce crime.
	And again, that's not even getting into the actual systemic issues within our police force also.
	But I don't want to talk for too long.
	So I'll go.
	Well, you're not going to address poverty by just throwing money at the problem.
	If you look at some of what I said.
	Okay.
	Well, I'm just saying in general, if you did mention, I mean, earlier we talked about reparations a little bit.
	But in terms of redlining, I mean, the Irish people were redlined.
	Croatians were redlined.
	Jewish people were redlined.
	Armenians were redlined.
	But they still didn't exactly see these things as a negative redlining.
	It wasn't just a lot of people.
	Well, exactly.
	But you said it was, again, subjected to a lot of very unique circumstances.
	Yeah.
	And I think that, you know, let's look at it like this.
	I think, you know, you have statistical data that you can look at.
	Obviously, that's not the totality of what's going on.
	You have to look at actual happenings that go on, people that live in the community, their experiences.
	When you talk about redlining and you talk about redlining and stuff like that, some of those have a somewhat of a factor, but I think people are giving too much weight to racist policy and redlining.
	We need to stop trying to find these excuses and look at it on an individual level.
	And that's how you fix things.
	You say, why are young black people?
	Why are young people?
	Why are your dress systems?
	Listen, listen.
	Why are young brothers out here selling drugs, right?
	Do you know of anybody that sells drugs?
	Ask anybody on this panel.
	Do you know anything?
	No, white people are more likely to sell drugs.
	Don't talk about a black person that sells drugs.
	Do you know a black person that sells drugs?
	Sure.
	No, I know one.
	Do you?
	Okay, if you do, then you can very well figure out the reason why these things are happening.
	Not all people that are selling drugs because they're not selling drugs because they're poor.
	They're not selling drugs because they don't have enough money to go to college.
	It's a cultural thing.
	Every person that I knew that sold drugs, they sold drugs because they wanted to make a lot of money.
	It wasn't because they needed to feed their family.
	They wanted to make a lot of money.
	They didn't want to go to a nine to five.
	So what do we want to start with first?
	Wait, wait, really quick, Hunter, really, really quickly.
	Okay.
	I think this is an extremely anti-intellectual way of looking at systemic problems.
	No, you're only looking at it one way.
	You have no real examples.
	You're looking at stats and you're trying to build all of that.
	Statistics tell us about real examples.
	No, but they don't, but you don't know anybody that sells drugs.
	Hold on.
	Let me get LaVosh.
	Let's give Lavosh a chance here.
	Clear about this.
	Examples are, to be perfectly clear, meaningless when we're talking about large systemic issues.
	They are utterly worthless.
	Depending on you and your personal experiences, you can pull out any lesson in the world from your personal experiences.
	The only black guy I've ever met who sold drugs did so because his family was broke as and he wanted to go to a good college.
	But you say your experiences are different.
	Well, since we're only relying on experiential evidence here, anecdotal evidence, we don't really have anything.
	The only thing we can really look at here that gives us a solution is data.
	And the fact of the matter is that there is a lot of evidence, which points to the idea that the problems the black community experiences is downstream of systemic discrimination.
	Nobody, you can say you could use your statistical data or whatnot.
	I grew up, I'm just telling you, this is important too.
	I grew up black my whole life and I've been around black people.
	Nobody's talking about the stuff that you're talking about.
	You're invoking identity politics.
	Nobody's going to be able to do it.
	And also that's irrelevant.
	If you go interviewing people, I really like what Vosh had to say there.
	They're not going to talk to you about redlining.
	They're not going to talk to you about racism.
	No, why?
	They're going to talk to you about opportunity.
	Really quick, really quick, Kennedy.
	That's because individuals don't tend to look at things in a systemic manner, which is why you don't go to the street and ask individuals what kind of policies they would want to fix their neighborhoods.
	That's a policy thing.
	It takes a lot of time and works.
	So you're saying that everybody's the same.
	What I'm telling you.
	No, wait, wait, Brendan, please.
	Wait, hold on.
	I need to make a point here.
	Okay.
	Looking beyond individual anecdotes is not the same as saying everybody is the same.
	I feel like in a way you're allergic to systemic analysis here.
	So the arguments here are pretty simple.
	Your solution to these huge systemic gaps that have existed for, I mean, pretty much as long as black people have been in America, long ass time, these gaps, your solution to it is everyone needs to try harder, work harder.
	But I think your animosity to these issues was suggested by something that you said rather errantly just a couple of minutes ago.
	I pointed out that millions of people have been locked up at some point or another for nonviolent drug crimes.
	And you said, but there's still drug crimes.
	I know they are.
	But why are nonviolent drug offenders getting sent to prison?
	See, you are making an argument that can never be fixed.
	You're saying, let's look at this broad swath of people.
	Let's talk about statistical data.
	And we can't, and you have no solutions, brother, because you're not.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	So we can't even discuss solutions if you're not willing to acknowledge the people.
	Listen, what's your solution to the black-white income gap?
	Black, white income gap.
	Like, so when I, I'm giving you my personal experience when I grew up in this.
	Okay, what's your solution?
	Listen, this is what I'm saying.
	When I was growing up, if I had more positive role models that were doing things that were positive people that were doing things outside of playing sports and rapping, I think I would have perceived things differently.
	I would have tried to go into different professions.
	Football is a dying sport.
	We were told, when I'm growing up, we were told that football is the way out.
	Sports is the only way to go.
	All the people that we idolize are athletes.
	We don't see examples of other people doing things that are positive.
	And then when you play football.
	What I'm saying is that it's not about the media.
	It's not just about the media because black actors play traditional black roles.
	They don't play roles.
	They don't fight for roles that put black people in a positive light.
	Let me give you an example.
	Let me give you an example.
	The NFL, the NFL produced probably the most millionaires, the most black millionaires out of any profession in the United States of America.
	Black people go bankrupt like 83% from the NFL.
	Why are those things occurring?
	That has nothing to do with systemic racism.
	So maybe there's a reason why black people aren't as educated.
	I'm going to go to Hunter.
	I'm sorry, Vosh.
	Look at Hunter Rolls because he hasn't had a chance to really give feedback on that.
	Actually, you know what?
	No, I'll go ahead and I'll give up my spot to Vosh, then go over to me next.
	Oh, I appreciate that, Hunter.
	That's some good teamwork.
	So you just said you want more positive black male role models.
	That's fantastic.
	Completely agree with you.
	Media representation.
	That's a common left-leaning talking point that if you allow minorities to have prominent positions in media, that you tell like these kids, like, hey, this isn't just a white man's game.
	This isn't just a man's game.
	You can be whoever you want to be.
	I completely agree with that.
	But your suggestion that nobody in the acting community is fighting for non-traditional black people.
	What I'm saying is that most of the actors are playing these traditional roles of slaves and of drug dealers and all of those things.
	They still take these roles.
	They turn them down.
	But they turn the roles down.
	And it won't be.
	You know, if they want to act, could that be a problem with Hollywood, maybe only like having roles for black people?
	It's about black people.
	We could say that there's two problems here.
	We could say that there's a problem with Hollywood only soliciting actors.
	And we could say there's a problem that black actors are taking these roles, perpetuating the myth of the way black people are represented.
	So you don't know if you do believe in positive black representation in media.
	Like you push for that.
	If you earn it, yeah, I agree.
	I agree.
	Wait, I completely agree without any strings attached.
	I think that's fantastic.
	And that's also a systemic solution because tens of millions of black kids are going to grow up seeing these people on TV, you know, like a positive black male role model.
	I don't know, Idris Elba, Spond, whatever, like whatever comes up to the top of your head.
	And they're going to see that and think, wow, okay, we're not just represented by rap artists, football players, and slaves in Hollywood historical periods.
	We can be whatever we want to be.
	I completely agree with that.
	And these are the kinds of solutions that I like looking towards because they're actionable.
	That's also something that we have to do as individuals in the community, right?
	You know, when like people like me that make it out the hood, that don't have to be an athlete to make money.
	Us being positive representations for young people growing up and going back into the community and talking to them about it.
	So media representation is a part of it, but also association peer-to-peer representation is a part of it as well.
	And what I'm saying is that when I was growing up, if you were a doctor, you were a lawyer, you were educated, you will get bullied in school in black communities.
	You weren't bullied by white people.
	You weren't told by white people that you couldn't do these things.
	You were told by other black people.
	This is generational.
	My father told me the same stories when he was in school that he made straight A's and he was bullied because he was trying to be white.
	So there is an approach that needs to be had, you know, when you say systemically through the white community.
	There's an approach that needs to be had through the black community.
	You know, the reason why I'm not a drug dealer is because my dad told me if you sell drugs, you're going to go to jail.
	You're going to get killed out here by these police officers.
	If you're not selling drugs, you're committed crimes.
	I just want to ask one question, honestly.
	So you say that the availability of positive black male role models is something that you think could make a difference.
	Not like a total difference, but some kind of difference.
	That's a major difference.
	Yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Then would you acknowledge then that it's possible for people's individual choices to be influenced by systemic causes and effects that are beyond them?
	Like a little kid growing up in the Bronx doesn't have any say in who gets cast in Hollywood, but that change matters because it'll affect their individual decision making down the line.
	I agree to that.
	I don't, I don't think that's a good idea.
	I just think that's cool.
	I agree with that.
	Yeah.
	I agree with that.
	I think it's interesting then because you essentially, in a way, will agree, would agree then with addressing systemic racism.
	I'm not because if you're able to acknowledge that there's systems, I'm not disagreeing that there's obstacles.
	Nobody is saying that, but what I'm saying is we're putting too much weight on some of these obstacles, right?
	We put too much weight on talking about the police.
	When I was growing up, man, the police weren't even, it's one police officer for every thousand people.
	Police, the general population of black people don't experience being exposed to police.
	It's just not happening.
	They're exposed to peer-to-peer violence.
	This is exactly why we don't appeal to anecdotes because that's again.
	Look at the numbers.
	There's one police officer for every thousand people and there's 40 million black people.
	Just do the numbers.
	There's not a lot of police officers that are out there patrolling in the world.
	I generally like to, what I would really prefer to do here is pull away a little bit from these personal anecdotes that you keep alluding to.
	I mean, you got to talk about reality.
	You can't just say that.
	This is reality.
	This is how this is reality.
	This is how we make people.
	Most black people are poor.
	Are most black people poor?
	No, but black people are disproportionately.
	No, no, no.
	Most black people poor.
	Majority of the black people are in the middle class.
	They're not poor.
	So most black people are not dealing with the same issues of overproduction.
	Disproportionately poor on average, certainly.
	Yeah, because in this case, I'm going to cut you off and ask the next question.
	I want to get into this a little bit.
	We're talking about the way people are treated, but I want to talk about some of the high-profile cases right now with Chauvin and the policing and what we saw there.
	And I really want to get into a little bit about specifically of whether or not Chauvin was a murderer.
	But I do want to give a shout out to the sponsor of this segment of the show.
	Guys, everyone on this panel, I'm sure, could probably benefit from having a higher credit score.
	I know that I could.
	I know that you probably could.
	And I don't think that we all know how much our credit score actually matters.
	And I didn't know that until I tried to refinance my student loans.
	Till I'm right now looking for a mortgage.
	I realized that your credit score largely determines basically the rate that you get on your loan or your line of credit.
	And a lot of lines of credit can be for an investment as well, which is why you need to check out Scoremaster.
	Now, Scoremaster is not just some sort of credit repair.
	This is credit science.
	And people often can raise their credit score up 61 points in 20 days or less.
	And so if you want to know how important that is, 61 points, well, let me just tell you, over the life of a home loan, you could save up to $100,000 by getting your credit score up using this science.
	Now, your credit score was in the 500s to mid-600s where a lot of people actually have theirs when you bought that new car.
	If you would have gone to Scoremaster first and raised your credit score 61 points, you could have saved $9,000 on your car loan.
	So this is not like a joke.
	And I don't just want to just, you know, say go to this website.
	It's like, no, go to scoremaster.com slash offense.
	That's O-F-F-E-N-S-E and find out how to raise your credit score up to 61 points in 20 days or less.
	This is an amazing, amazing, amazing service.
	Please go to scoremaster.com slash offense.
	That's O-F-F-E-N-S-E.
	That's scoremaster.com slash offense and find out how you can raise your credit score and roll in minutes and see how many points you can add to your score.
	Check it out today.
	So I want to get into this.
	So obviously we know that we're expecting possible civil unrest, that there is this response, that there's a feeling in our country where people feel like black people are treated unfairly, especially in police situations.
	And I just got to ask you guys, you know, with the trial that you guys hopefully have been tracking, that you guys have been understanding.
	At the end of all this, I'm not going to ask you to be a, you know, a juror.
	And I know that, you know, that's the jury's duty.
	But do you think that Derek Chauvin was a murderer?
	And do you believe that George Floyd got murdered?
	And I'll start with Vosh on this one.
	I think it was negligent manslaughter.
	I don't think that Derek Chauvin intended to kill George Floyd.
	I think that Derek Chauvin acted out of remarkable cruelty and disregard for George Floyd's well-being.
	I don't think that meets the legal classification of murder, certainly not first degree.
	I think it was second or third degree that he was charged with.
	I'm actually blanking on right now.
	I do think he acted unlawfully in some regard or another.
	And what frustrates me about this trial is I feel like when we talk about Derek Chauvin, we're not talking about Derek Chauvin at all.
	It's caught up in this culture war thing.
	I feel like, and this could be my bias, that looking at what happened to George Floyd, pretty much any decent person can say, that's pretty messed up.
	That shouldn't have happened.
	That was bad.
	But because it got caught up with Black Lives Matter and it got caught up with the Blue Lives Matter types as well, now it's this whole, if you attack Derek Chauvin, you're attacking all policing.
	And if you defend Derek Chauvin, you're doing it to defend all policing type deal.
	And it's unfortunate because it really erases a lot of nuance.
	I think we can condemn Derek Chauvin and then continue to have a nuanced conversation about policing in America, even one which is fairly defensive of policing.
	But I think we have to, we can't, I don't think we can defend Derek Chauvin on this.
	I don't think that behavior is appropriate.
	I really do think that there is an actual case to be made for acquittal here.
	I think if you look at the level of fentanyl that was in George Floyd's system at the time that he died, it was arguably four times the fatal limit.
	The Hennepin County Medical Examiner even said that if he was found home alone, that it could have been considered an overdose with just a quarter of what he had in his system.
	I don't think that it was a racist killing, obviously.
	There's really little evidence that it was.
	They tried to reason.
	They were fairly cordial with Floyd at the beginning.
	He got in the car and then he got out of the car.
	He said he couldn't breathe before he was on the ground.
	They held him in that position.
	They put the knee on the shoulder blade.
	The knee was on the neck for some of the time.
	However, when it was on the neck, it specifically was not on the trachea.
	It was not blocking the airflow per the medical expert witness testimony.
	But on top of that, there's also, in terms of the regard for human life thing, Derek Chauvin did call an ambulance for Floyd.
	And also, there is a case to be made here.
	The fact that Floyd could have choked on his own vomit if he was not in the position Chauvin put him in.
	He could have easily gotten up because the position that he was in was in the police handbook for the city of Minneapolis.
	It has been used before multiple times.
	And in terms of the aphyxia, hypoxia, you can die from fentanyl.
	You can die from methamphetamine, two of the drugs that Floyd was on specifically of those things as well.
	So I'm not necessarily sure that it is murder.
	I think that the optics of it obviously are bad for Derek Chauvin.
	I think he could have handled the situation a little bit better.
	But altogether speaking, I really could see why he does get acquitted from a court-level basis and potentially civil unrest may ensue.
	Hunter, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
	Yeah, the first thing I want to talk about is just your, you bring up the Hennepin County medical examiner that said that during the autopsy.
	I'm not sure exactly where you're getting that information, but this guy just sat down on trial with the George Floyd trial and he said that, and I, let's see, he agreed with the autopsy results, which state that law enforcement subduel, restraint, and neck compression were direct causes of Floyd's death.
	Thomas still works as forensic.
	Okay.
	So yeah, I'm not sure exactly.
	I know that there was like some other factors that were included with the original autopsy, but this guy has since testified under oath that yes, he does believe it to be a homicide, which was directly a result of Derek Chauvin's actions.
	Now, do I think that Derek Chauvin is an individual evil racist?
	No, I think that he does have a history of using pretty aggressive tactics.
	If you look, he has a pretty long rap sheet.
	He was no angel, really.
	But at the same time, I think that a lot of the times people are mad here, not because they're mad here because this is, again, indicative of an underlying problem, right?
	It's black people are disproportionately victimized by police.
	So when we see this happen, it garners a large amount of outrage.
	And I think that's really why there's so much outrage around things that happen, like George Floyd and Dante Wright and everything else.
	We can get down in the nitty-gritties of each individual case.
	But at the end of the day, it's really an indicative issue of a systemic problem.
	Why are black people disproportionately being victimized by police brutality?
	That's really the question here.
	Yeah, Brandon, what's your thoughts?
	I think it's a product of systemic brainwashing because if you look at the stats, it's not necessarily the case.
	Now, when we talk about this case, I think that there is an argument for acquittal.
	I think Chauvin is an idiot.
	I think that he should have done things differently.
	As a former police officer, I would have never done that, man.
	I think I would have played into the camera more.
	I would have been more compassionate, at least the appearance of compassion, knowing that I'm a white man on a black man's neck, or whatever the case may be.
	I think that Chauvin should have handled it differently.
	Funny thing is, nobody's talking about George Floyd.
	And George Floyd should have handled it differently as well.
	I mean, there's no reason for you to be ingesting illegal drugs to fatal levels, trying to buy stuff with stolen money and resisting arrest.
	I mean, if you don't do any of those things, you don't end up on the ground.
	You don't end up in police custody if you're not doing things on his side.
	So I think there's an argument.
	I think there's an argument to talk about and critique the police actions.
	And I think there's an argument to critique George Floyd's actions.
	And I also think that there could be an acquittal based on the totality of circumstances that I've seen based on the burden of proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
	I just want to say it's the responsibility of the police to encounter people in their worst moments.
	I don't think the fact that they're at their worst moments is a justification.
	Yeah, but you don't get there.
	It's not the police job for you to commit crimes.
	You're supposed to do your part.
	When things happen, if things go south, why do you commit a crime?
	But if you go down that road, you can justify almost any impropriety on the part of the police.
	Wait, wait, wait, Tatum, please.
	You can justify almost anything because you can say, oh, well, that guy shouldn't have been doing X, Y.
	Well, it's the cop's job to do.
	Let's take my argument out of context.
	What I'm saying is that if you want to see these things changed, you could take accountability as an individual to not put yourself in these positions.
	However, do you think that being a drug addict is worthy of the death sentence?
	Would you sentence someone who's a drug addict to death?
	Is anybody talking about somebody worthy of death sentence?
	Where do we talk about that?
	Yes, we're talking about George Floyd, who was killed.
	You just brought up the fact that you said that his drug use was a death sentence.
	No, I'm asking you brought it up.
	I never said that.
	We're not going to entertain that because it's bullcrap.
	He did ingest.
	He did just a fatal level of the drug.
	To be fair, wait, hold on, wait, stop.
	First of all, we have testimony from the trial, and there have been multiple autopsies determining that it was restriction of his airflow that led to the correctness.
	Yeah, and there's many that have been contradictory, too.
	You can have killings.
	Please waste.
	The information that came out, these are people who testified under oath.
	We are dealing with the trial right now.
	This is the seminal moment to determine the criminality of Derek Chauvin's behavior and to determine what led to George Floyd's death.
	And in the context of this trial, where people are legally accountable for their statements, they are saying that the toxicology report did not indicate that it was a drug overdose.
	And frankly, by the way, just because a person is in a medically compromised state, which I would certainly say having fentanyl in your blood is, that does not justify a police officer engaging in behavior which leads to your death.
	Even if you were safer.
	Nobody's saying that.
	That's not an argument that's made.
	Why are you jumping to that conclusion?
	What I'm saying is that if I was George Floyd and I wanted to prevent this from happening, I wouldn't commit crimes that necessitate police responding to me.
	This is they make a mistake.
	Listen to what I'm saying.
	If I was a police officer and I didn't want to end up like Chauvin, then I would do things differently than Chauvin.
	Why can't we have a conversation about both sides?
	I'm trying to talk again.
	You're just making excuse.
	Wait, please.
	I'm just trying to, because we're getting really angry over this.
	I don't know why we're so triggered over this.
	Because you're wasting time.
	George Flyer.
	Give both people an honest perspective.
	You're interrupting me every time I try to make a point.
	So we are wasting time.
	I agree with that.
	George Floyd isn't on trial.
	He's dead.
	Did he make bad decisions?
	Obviously.
	I think anyone who's familiar with that man's history knows that he was no stranger to making bad decisions.
	You'll find most criminals have made bad decisions.
	The specific thing we are talking about here is bad decisions are on trial.
	Police behavior, what is or is not exactly bad decisions were on trial.
	Police use of drugs is on trial.
	Did he die from the drug overdose or not?
	That's on trial.
	Well, the testimony has indicated that it was not.
	No, there was cross-examination that if I could just make that.
	There were more blood tests conducted also that they sorry.
	Wait, Hunter, Tatum, please.
	We are not in the business of determining whether or not different choices made by a dead person who interacted with police could have led to a better outcome.
	We are specifically talking about the police officer here.
	If you want his drug use, you want to avoid all people have been talking about is his drug use.
	Yes, because it's on trial.
	Did he die from an overdose or did he die from the term that's already been tried?
	Well, I think we'll leave it up to the court to we'll leave it up to the jury to determine that this week, actually, because there was cross-examination.
	There are different people that have different perspectives on the issue.
	Some of the expert witnesses have said that they do believe that Floyd could have died from an overdose.
	There are several expert witnesses that have said the opposite.
	So I think we'll have to wait and see what the jury exactly has to say on this topic.
	Hold on.
	Wait, that's not how our legal works.
	The jury is on lethal level.
	He had 11.
	Wait, the jury determined Chauvin's criminality.
	It doesn't determine the legitimacy of the expert witness brought forward, first of all.
	Second of all, this trial is specifically about Chauvin.
	That's why people are talking about Chauvin.
	Third of all, if you want to talk about George Floyd, let's talk about things like drug abuse, drug overdoses, and criminality.
	What can we do to reduce these things?
	It turns out the greatest indicator of those types of behaviors is income inequality.
	Man, quit making excuses about in court.
	You don't smoke crack.
	He stopped.
	He stopped making crack for a period of time and then he got back on it.
	You're making excuses, bro.
	Stop smoking crack.
	Stop smoking, methamphetamine, and fentanyl.
	You need social solutions.
	You can't just cross.
	We have social solutions.
	He made the decision to use drugs on that day.
	Wait, hold on.
	That cost him his life.
	Can I finish making a point without you getting triggered and interrupting me?
	Can I like finish?
	Man, you just, you guys were just saying, is this the famed self-control of a police officer here?
	Can't even let a sentence be finished.
	You're just too soft for me to have come back.
	Why are you being soft?
	You don't want me to talk back to you.
	It's a social solution.
	Your solution is crossing your arms and saying, Well, why don't people make better decisions?
	Make the action of a child.
	This is a childish mentality, Datum.
	This is a fixed problem.
	I agree.
	And I also, if I could just ask also, we got to let Hunter jump in there.
	I just want to ask really quick, Brandon.
	If you think it really does come down to personal responsibility and decisions being made and everything else, then do you want to answer why are black people disproportionately making bad decisions?
	Why, why?
	I just told you, and you don't want to hear me.
	I'm saying the leadership, the male leadership in the black community, is a big problem.
	You can use all your stats all you want.
	It's a big problem.
	These young people don't have guidance.
	Why do you think a man just ran up on a seven-year-old in Chicago and gunned down somebody in a car?
	They don't have male leadership.
	Nobody's teaching these boys to be men and not running around killing each other.
	You can cry all you want.
	It's why do you want to solve the problem or about it?
	Why?
	Why is it happening?
	The solving of the problem is addressing the fact that these men need to be better leaders in the community.
	You can't, white people have nothing to do with this.
	That's not how you address things via like address it because you admit that this is the problem.
	This boy's father is not like, for instance, Dante Wright.
	Dante Wright, this kid is 20 years old and he's selling, he's on waving guns, robbing people at gunpoint.
	He does not have male leadership.
	People keep blaming white people and the police.
	Well, how do you fix it?
	Okay, let's start from ground zero.
	When you are talking about changing things in the community, stop wasting your time about white supremacy and white privilege.
	Talk to these young people about making positive decisions when they're in school.
	Get your education.
	Get married before you have children.
	You have a lower education.
	Get married before you have children.
	I went to an all-life.
	Wait, wait, wait, Brandon.
	I really just want to cut in really quickly because you say part of the thing you're saying is go to school, get a job, and all of these things I agree with, but black people are still disproportionately taking care of them.
	Hold on, wait, stop.
	Stop.
	Let me explain you about this.
	I'm glad.
	Are you still a police officer?
	Because you seem really bad at handling crisis.
	I think you'd be probably not a crisis.
	I'm talking to little boys right now, bro.
	You're not a crisis.
	Yeah, says the guy that's been using a childish argument the entire time.
	Yeah, let's just start telling people not to do things that are bad, guys.
	Listen, if we want to address this.
	This is what your dad should tell you.
	If we want to address a system issue, if we want to address that.
	Did your dad say you shouldn't break the law?
	Did your daddy tell you shouldn't break the law?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	That's exactly what I'm telling you.
	This is what we should be doing.
	Yeah, this is what I mean.
	Let me ask that question, Hunter.
	Hunter, let me ask that as we, because I want to come to a good conclusion here.
	Obviously, the thoughts are out there, but let's end on that with the conclusion of actually what are the solutions here?
	Like, it's one thing, I think Vosh said it.
	We could sit around at each other all day on, you know, on what's this or that.
	But realistically speaking, I mean, everyone in this room has a YouTube channel.
	You have influence.
	You have a following.
	There's people from all different political backgrounds watching this.
	Everyone hears the disagreements.
	But ultimately, like, what are the solutions to this?
	Because it looks like rioting hasn't really helped as much as I think people wanted it to.
	So let's go with Hunter.
	Let's start with Hunter there.
	Oh, yeah, sure.
	I mean, I'll even address the riots.
	You know, a lot of this, again, stems from systemic issues.
	Even rioting, for example, is a result of civil unrest, which is a result of police killing black people, which is a result of the income gap, which is a result of racist policies of the past.
	It's not that complicated.
	I know it might be for you, Brandon, since you have a, I don't know, like Martin Luther King's child way of thinking of things here.
	Martin Luther King didn't do this.
	First, do you really finish up your solutions?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	My solution really just starts with acknowledging this problem, acknowledging the systemic inequality and the previous policies that still have consequences today.
	It's not that hard to understand that policy has consequences.
	I mean, Brandon talked about like advice being given from generation to generation.
	That's true.
	Do you really not think that wealth doesn't transfer from generation to generation?
	It's very obvious that there are systemic.
	Uh issues here and we're still dealing with consequences from previous racist policies, and I just want to address that.
	My solution would be to invest in some of those areas, try and help them uh get out of poverty obviously, as much as possible.
	Uh, get rid of using tax dollars to fund schools.
	Part of the problem right now is you have poor communities, then they pay less in taxes, which means less funding to schools which again Brandon, that means that black people have a harder time uh pursuing a better education.
	Uh, I think that there are a lot of different ways that we could go about addressing this, but the way that we do not address this is just say, well, everybody should just start making better choices, even though, for whatever reason, they haven't been making better choices for the last decades.
	I guess a couple of policy suggestions with no, with no accusations thrown out here, or anything like that.
	You already suggested one that I agree with, Brandon Tatum.
	You said that um, if there are more positive black male role models in Hollywood well, part of that would be getting, in all likelihood, white producers to choose to make different movies, star some roles for black people that aren't all historical slave pieces or football stories, or what have you.
	So that's part of it.
	But broadly speaking, what about no longer tying the um the funding of schools to the zip code or the district that they're in, and rather have it spread out citywide?
	The problem with the current system is that it amplifies the effects of redlining.
	You're born in a poor neighborhood.
	Poor neighborhoods mean low taxes from housing, which means your school is poor, which means poor education.
	We can address that.
	We can try to um implement a broader city works program.
	One of the bigger issues that we have is that cars are really expensive.
	I think a car-friendly source indicated the average expense of owning a car totaled up to around seven thousand dollars a year between purchasing it, maintaining it, paying for gas damages, what have you so?
	Better public transportation would make it easier for poorer people to get around.
	Now, this is not a reparations policy, this is not race targeted, but it would address inequality.
	These are policies that would also crease the American gdp, because the easier it is for poor people to move around, the easier it is for them to find new jobs and buy things.
	This would benefit everyone, and I mean white black wealthy, poor.
	Everyone would benefit from this.
	There are a lot of really simple policies that we can implement that would improve the lives of everyone in our country.
	We just don't do it because I don't know.
	I don't know why, because I think it's a theory that people think about.
	Have you ever lived in a poor community, any poor community?
	Do not change the fact that it's been shown.
	All i'm saying is that I grew up in a poor community.
	People roach roaches in their house.
	I never seen a person didn't have a car, like people have cars.
	I mean, I don't know what.
	What you're, what you're saying, let me.
	Let me give an example.
	Let me give you an example.
	I grew up in an all-poor neighborhood and everybody had a car.
	I didn't know people that didn't have a car and the school bus would drive around and pick kids up from school, or you walk to school.
	I went to a poor, all-black school where most people didn't even graduate.
	However, what i'm saying is that what is the difference between people that graduated from that same school and went to college with scholarships academically, versus the people who dropped out?
	That had nothing to do with systemic problems?
	It has something to do with your parent making a decision to support you more, prioritizing education just like their children in black communities than white communities, then I don't know about white community.
	I never lived in a white community.
	However, I can tell you what happens.
	Why are black communities so much?
	I can say why.
	It's not because it's not prioritized.
	It's not prioritized for some reason, all prioritized in white areas, and why.
	I don't know what it's like to live in a white area.
	All i'm telling you do happened in a black community.
	Do you realize that white people prioritize education more than black people?
	This is the, it is true statistically, back to the study that I was citing earlier, black families, when you adjust for all factors, on average they spend 32 percent more than white families on luxury goods and they spend 17 less on education, for a 40 times household wealth gap.
	In all likelihood, people who are more disproportionately poor tend to do that because there's less for them.
	You keep it feels, and that's my solution.
	Wait wait, hold on, let me.
	Let me give you solutions are not excuses.
	Let me give a solution.
	Ignorance, because it absolves you of responsibility.
	Let me give a solution to these problems Tatum, let me give a solution solution.
	Wait is the solution.
	Tell people to do better is that what i'm saying?
	Let's see brand, brand.
	What is.
	What is the solution?
	Let me hear, let me hear, let me need to.
	We need to focus on individuality.
	Right, socialist policies are not gonna, are not gonna help anybody with anything.
	And adding more, what's a policy?
	You would think, okay.
	So when you, when you talk, when you talk about all of these things, have to go on a fundamental level.
	Right, what I do on my social media platform and what we do in the community, when we go and do things in Blexit 40, some chapters all over the country, is we go into the communities and we feed people, but we also tell them and give them a better way of life, tell young people, encourage them to go to school.
	We have an after-school program that we're starting to help out with the families.
	Those are policies.
	We are doing programs.
	That's a policy that I could, i'm saying, but that's what we're doing.
	We're not dependent on the government to do that, because they never do it right.
	So we do that.
	People who are affluent, who are African-american, Mutual AID that's a socialist policy.
	People who are African, who are, who are, who are African American, who are, who are successful, have to start giving back and have to start doing things in the community, showing young people how to like.
	We have a program that we do every year.
	We have a program.
	We have a pro part.
	Well, I think the Black Panther Party did some good things.
	Then they became rapid non-government organization that did a lot in their own community.
	I support that.
	The churches I support the churches doing it as well.
	What i'm saying is that churches individuals, need to have programs for these young people and teach them a better way.
	Right, we have a program that we do every year.
	My stepmam does does it in Waco, Texas.
	We invite young people from the community, poor people in the community.
	We teach them about taxes.
	We teach them about, we teach them about building their credit.
	We teach them about how to get a job, how to apply for a job, how you know how to interview, how to write a resume.
	All of those things are things that we need to do as individuals helping out on micro levels.
	This is what i'm saying.
	Can I just really quick?
	Can I just really quick say I agree with all that?
	Yeah is, I agree with all of that, but the problem is that it's not an either or thing.
	Individuals should take personal responsibility and do the best that they can do in the circumstances that they are in, but that's not enough for addressing systemic issues.
	When we're talking about large groups of well, let's talk about it like this, guys, i'm gonna have to cut you off for seconds.
	I need, I need to hear Jack's.
	I need to hear Jack's solution here.
	Jack uh with, with everything.
	They're even saying uh, not only do you agree or disagree, but but what would you say would actually be a solution?
	Specifically, I know you're, everyone's a millennial except Hunter.
	Are you millennial or you gen z I?
	I'm a zoomer, so you're zoomer i'm, I think i'm gen z.
	I'm, I like i'm one year younger, so I okay cool, so yeah, so you're younger, your audience is young and I mean a lot of people have heard the arguments, but what's your, what's your solutions to this?
	I would have to say that I agree that investing in these communities is probably the best way forward.
	I do agree that you know community, Community organizing, as Brandon has stated, easily can change these communities.
	Because when it comes down to culture, it's up to individual people to band together and form groups.
	It doesn't have to be on the individual basis.
	Obviously, everybody should take personal responsibility on an individual basis.
	But as a group, there needs to be people that come together to make change, community organizing groups.
	And I feel like that can lead to a positive change in terms of the culture.
	And also, when it comes down to things like education, I don't think that throwing money at the problem is necessarily going to solve it entirely.
	I think that if you look at some school districts like Detroit, I heard the tax dollar argument earlier, but Detroit actually has more funding than pretty much any other district in the state of Michigan.
	And it is not really, it really hasn't solved the problem whatsoever.
	I think that investing in schools, investing in communities, I think that that is a much better solution.
	And I think it will work in the long run 100%.
	Vosh, I don't think you got to give yourself.
	I think with Vosh on that with the policies, I'm kind of getting this because we could go on with this forever.
	And I hope, I know that I heard on Vosh's stream, he's not super stoked at coming back, but I hope that you guys would come back.
	No, no, no, no.
	I was just angry.
	I just like live story.
	Don't worry.
	Okay, yeah, because I would hope, I'm hoping to do another one of these, maybe even next week.
	Maybe we can even get some of the same people, but I want to do one a little bit on the rioting and the solutions and what we're seeing in society and how civil unrest and those kinds of things.
	But with these kinds of ideas and solutions, I'm seeing two very different approaches, but also one common factor is that we're looking at the fact that, yes, there has to be a push for black culture in general.
	There has to be changes inside of individuals making different choices.
	But what I'm hearing is that a lot of times those people are inhibited from making those choices because of what seems to be larger systemic issues.
	But the only thing I want to know, and I kind of want to bring up and I continue to understand is like, can you through the government, you know, and through voting and through policy change the heart of a person?
	And is what we're seeing with this community and the problems that they're facing, is this something that the government can solve?
	Is this something that churches, organizations can solve?
	You know, because I'm just, I mean, this is honestly a real, a real question, and it kind of breaks my heart because sometimes it still seems like other people are trying to come outside the black community and saying, they need us to solve their own problems.
	And so I kind of just want to, just a quick question to end it all after the solution.
	Can you jump on solutions really quick?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Oh, yeah, one quick thing I just want to say.
	I agree with all of this.
	I just, I like solutions-based approach because sometimes it feels like the answer is do better, do better, do better.
	Well, we know everyone should do better at all times, including myself.
	But how do we get people to do better?
	And sometimes this stuff flies downstream, you know?
	If you have a slightly better job opportunity in a neighborhood, maybe the single mother's there, they don't need to work three jobs.
	They can work two, which means they have more time to spend with their kid after school, which means that that kid gets a little bit of a better upbringing, which means they're less likely to hang out with the bad kids after school.
	And it's all like trickles down.
	It's this slow, steady process of giving people better opportunities.
	Now, I don't think the government has a great track record of just dumping money onto problems, but I think there are some solutions that work.
	Tatums, yours is excellent.
	Schools do not teach financial savviness.
	They don't.
	They don't do it.
	They expect you to go out there not knowing how debt or credit cards work.
	So I think that's great.
	Maybe you could offer a small tax breaks or tax benefits to schools that are willing to have sort of non-publicly mandated after-school workshops for that sort of thing.
	Maybe you invest more in parks and neighborhoods and playgrounds so kids have a place to play that doesn't involve them doing some weird, maybe criminal with their other friends.
	Stuff like that could really go a long way.
	And I'd like to see changes made like that.
	I don't think there's ever been an example in all of human history of a community that is wildly underrepresented in culture and doing worse than their contemporaries, made better because they were told to do better.
	Usually there's something.
	The Social Security program, when it was implemented, led to a radical redistribution of wealth.
	And it led to massive decreases in poverty in some communities, which led, you know, then to lower rates of criminality.
	We can get that energy back.
	And it doesn't have to be some massive, bloated, bureaucratic program.
	We know solutions to these problems that will generate money for the economy, like public transportation.
	And I hope we do run that direction too for climate change reasons, of course.
	But yeah, so and I don't disagree with you.
	I think I agree with their thoughts.
	Final thoughts here, though, Brandon, final thoughts?
	And we're going to wrap it up after this.
	Okay.
	Ask that question again that you asked, Elijah.
	You said.
	I was just saying, I was just saying that kind of like the closing solution is if the problems we agree are partially, you know, the individual, but what might be preventing the individual from going forward are systemic issues.
	Can the government, I mean, do we think that the government really can solve these issues?
	Can these actually be solved?
	Or is it perhaps like whether you believe there is systemic racism or not, the fact is, is that can the black community get out of this or are they going to be stuck?
	Like, are they past that?
	And that's what I always get worried about.
	Are things so far destructive that it's like, can these solutions actually work?
	We know the solutions, but can they work?
	That's all your final thoughts.
	Try to keep it brief.
	Yeah, yeah, I think that the government is making it worse.
	Politicians are making it worse.
	The media is making it worse.
	They're putting black people on this trip to go protest and riot and be full-time activists instead of telling them to do better and then helping them do better.
	We should be encouraging people not to be rioting right now because you're destroying black businesses.
	You're having a negative image of black people on television and none of this is going to do anything.
	I mean, Martin Luther King didn't even believe in violent protests.
	He believed in peaceful protests, civil disobedience.
	And we should be getting back to those things.
	These are the things that should be encouraged by outside forces saying that black people, if we want to help, we need to do this.
	Most of the change that's going to happen has to happen in the city, in the inner cities, in the communities.
	Community leaders, there needs to be more community leaders that emerge and support the community in better ways.
	Churches need to step up in the communities.
	We need to do things on a community level.
	Every black community isn't the same.
	Everybody don't need the same type of help.
	Some communities don't need transportation.
	It's not a big issue.
	Some communities, crime is a bigger issue.
	Some people need to go to jail to get some of these people off of the streets that are terrorizing and killing people on a day-to-day basis in some communities.
	So community outreach should be the primary source.
	And if the government wants to help, then they can help by relieving taxes for some of these people, helping the churches out, giving them more latitude to bless their own community.
	Socialism, this whole social structure of the federal government being the solution is not going to help.
	We can see because since the 60s, black people are still in the same position that they've been in is because these things do not work the way we're prescribing them.
	It's almost as if history has consequences, right?
	I mean, if not a lot has changed.
	Black people were doing way better after slavery was over.
	Black people began to drug war happened.
	I'm saying the drug war.
	People are, listen, people are selling drugs.
	You don't have to make the personal decisions.
	Disproportionately racist.
	Okay.
	True.
	Yeah.
	I would also like to just closing arguments here.
	It's funny because earlier I actually talked about riots because a lot of the times when this kind of thing happens, we hear people like Brandon condemn the riots and they don't want to condemn anything else like what is leading to riots.
	And then, Brandon, you made the mistake of bringing up MLK.
	I thought I would just close off by reading the full quote, but it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots.
	It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without at the same time condemning the intolerable conditions that exist in our society.
	These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention.
	Now, we ain't dealing with the same thing.
	We're not fighting civil rights movement.
	That's passed.
	Civil rights activity movement movement.
	We're still having civil rights act was passed.
	There's no Hunter finish his thoughts.
	I just think that it's very clear that you're misinterpreting MLK to support your own dumb conservative agenda when at the end of the day, MLK made it crystal clear that the way that you fix rioting is by addressing the underlying systemic issues that lead to the civil unrest that lead to riot.
	He didn't riot.
	He didn't riot.
	There were riots.
	I didn't say he rioted.
	First of all, he didn't riot.
	Second of all, a common talking point of people who were against civil rights back then was actually that MLK was super violent and he was always destroying cities.
	So you sound very similar, man.
	Good job.
	All right.
	So guys, I don't want to, I know we can continue to talk about this, but just on that last point, I want to give Jack and Vosh a second to just comment briefly on that.
	Go ahead, Vosh, and then Jack, and then we'll wrap up.
	Yeah, final statement.
	I don't think that anyone here wants the problems in the black community to continue.
	I think that we're trustful and distrustful of different solutions because of different pieces of evidence that have been made available to us, different life experiences.
	But I'm glad that we're unified fundamentally in the same goal.
	I hope that with time, we will come to recognize, or at least believe, that some problems can't be solved with a bootstraps mentality.
	Individuals can.
	I believe that an individual kid in the worst of circumstances can do amazing things.
	Look at Ilhana Marr, a refugee who came here and is now a United States Congresswoman.
	That's extraordinary.
	Did so while being a mother.
	I mean, I can't, I'm not that hardworking.
	I couldn't have done that.
	I really do have a lot of respect for human tenacity, but we're playing a stats game when we're talking about millions of people.
	And it's always easier when the life put in front of you doesn't have as many roadblocks.
	So whether we're addressing that through community-based issues, the way Brandon Tatum suggests, or the way the Black Panther Party did, who were themselves not a big fan of big government because they kept getting killed by the government, or we're dealing with it through like broader welfare policies or social wealth redistribution, which I think has its place, though it definitely sometimes is misused by the government.
	Cities reappropriate funds, spend them poorly, dump money onto problems that don't get solved.
	As long as we're working to solve the same basic problems, I'm heartened by that.
	Jack, and I'm happy to have been here.
	And thank you very much.
	Awesome, Jack.
	Yes, I actually do agree quite a bit in terms of the community-based approach.
	I think that if we're going to involve the government in many cases, it would involve getting the government out of the way.
	But altogether, I was actually surprised to see that even though we may disagree with what is actually causing the issues at hand and what exactly is the main cause of everything, I think that we agree that the problems do exist.
	And I think that we all do want to fix the problem somehow.
	And I think that in terms of fixing the problems, I think that getting the government out of the way in many instances and looking for a more investments-based approach, that would probably be my main solution.
	Awesome, guys.
	So, Jack, this is Jack from Readygo Politics.
	We have Brandon Tatum, as I mentioned earlier.
	You can check out his website.
	We also have Vosh and Hunter.
	All the links to their social media.
	Yes, what?
	I'll fix my cam next time.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	We'll have you guys.
	I can see it down there.
	I like this.
	And I hope you guys know and could understand.
	I think we've sort of lost recently in YouTube.
	The left and right sort of stopped talking to each other as much as they used to, especially from networks and different things.
	It's become increasingly polarized.
	And so the point of all this, if you're watching, if you're one of my blind viewers and you're listening on the podcast, I just want to remind you that you can leave a five-star review.
	It really helps out the show a lot.
	You go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, subscribe.
	We're trying to get the audio downloads up.
	When you leave a review, it lets people know that you love the show.
	As you know, we're completely demonetized on YouTube and a lot of places.
	And we really like to just continue to provide the show for you and continue to bring it up.
	And it lets Blaze and everyone know that you love the show by your reviews.
	A lot of you guys have been really supporting.
	But anyways, to Vosh, to Hunter, to Jack, and to Brandon, thank you guys so much for coming on in a time where people will refuse to speak to each other on a public platform.
	We look forward to having you guys back again.
	Thank you.
	Thank you very much.
	And Hunter, you know, you're my bro.
	I love you very much.
	Love to have you on the street of the future.
	Likewise, Ready Go, Brandon Tatum, if either of you would like to speak in the future, I'm more than down.
	Yeah, I was going to say that too, Brandon.
	I would love to just, you know, even if you were ever interested in just having like a one-on-one chat for like half an hour to an hour, I would totally be down.
	So yeah.
	Okay.
	Cool.
	All right, guys.
	Take care.
	Keep it real.
	Yep.
	Well, there you have it.
	The third conservative TMZ.
	I'm kind of excited that we're actually getting more people on the left.
	I know Hunter's said he's more of a centrist, but I can definitely see he's leaning a little more left there.
	And, you know, we have Brandon, who's just more conservative, and then Reddy goes a populist.
	I mean, it's very interesting to see the different points of view.
	And, you know, this is all made possible thanks to Blaze TV.
	So please remember to sign up at BlazeTV.com slash Elijah.
	Show the Blaze that you love this show.
	Show them that you support us.
	Help us fight censorship, keeping these conversations alive, all of the good stuff.
	I want to read a couple reviews from the show.
	As I always do, every show, when you leave that review, it might get read on the screen.
	There's something really good here.
	This one, it's kind of long, but it says five stars.
	Elijah and Savannah are amazing.
	I get all my news updates from you guys.
	I love your show and podcast.
	I think you two are fall off my chair, funny.
	I know.
	Well, you got to find some funnier people.
	On a serious note, I live four miles east from all the Brooklyn Center looting and riots.
	I wanted to say we're really sad to see what's happening in our community.
	We're praying for you.
	We're with you.
	We pray King Jesus wins more souls for his kingdom and his glory in the end for all the distraction the enemy is orchestrating in our twin cities.
	And I'm sorry to hear that you have lasting damage from getting jumped.
	I pray total healing of all your nerve damage in the name of Jesus.
	Thank you.
	Your wife is amazing and hopefully can get some good kisses soon.
	We're praying for all you guys and sincerely thank you for putting your lives on the line to show us what's really going on.
	Blessings.
	That was very kind.
	And also we have one more that just says, love this podcast.
	Elijah might actually be my top 16 host.
	And so I'm pretty happy about that.
	I'm moving from top 17 to top 16.
	And they voted stoner for the new diversity coalition name.
	Who knows?
	On that note, guys, thank you guys so much again for watching another episode of Slightly Offensive, the best worst show on Blaze TV, where we always give you great graphics, 8K graphics at the end.
	My name is Elijah Schaefer.
	I'm your top 17 host.
	And for one of you, top 16 host, have a great rest of the week and may God bless the United States of America.

▲