Dark Journalist Daniel Liszt and co-host Olivia dissect the "UFO file wars," revealing a conflict between rogue CIA faction "X Protect" and the transparent "Breakaway Group" over Apotheum, an unpredictable reality-distortion physics. The narrative traces secrets from 1947's Kenneth Arnold sighting through JFK's alleged plan to share tech with Russia, linking Vannevar Bush, John Trump, and Nazi heritage to advanced aerospace capabilities. Connecting NASA hacks by Gary McKinnon to occult traditions like Rudolf Steiner's eighth sphere, the discussion argues that true disclosure lies outside government NDAs, making 2024 pivotal for exposing interdimensional phenomena hoarded by intelligence agencies. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Government Secrets and Black Budgets00:02:04
Hello, everyone.
My name is Kelsey Forrest, and I'm here with dark journalist Daniel List to go deep into the mysteries of Apotheum, the UFO file wars.
We're going to reveal some breakthrough information about this agnatic mystery and its connection to a secret exotic technology program.
It's great to be here with you, Kelsey.
It's so great to be here, too.
Fantastic.
Okay.
So, Daniel, let's start with this.
What is a UFO file, and who has control over it in the U.S. government?
This is the question, really.
And we're right in the heart of this tonight because when you go into the UFO file, you find yourself suddenly in the middle of advanced technology, questions of off world civilizations, questions of homegrown corporations that have advanced technology that have worked for years to keep that secret, and government secrecy, and then a finance system, which is a secret system of finance, all wrapped.
Around that question.
So, I want to just say right off the bat, the question is loaded.
Very.
And I have a second part to it too, because how does it relate to the black budget?
Oh, yeah.
Well, this is really the core, so we'll start with the core.
So, the black budget operates on one level.
You're working with a number of different people who have been, for many years, obfuscating financial disclosures within the government.
And when you get around advanced technology and the ability to keep that secret, Then you are building an entire separate civilization.
So they're keeping it separate and they're built around secrecy.
So when you are the covert government operating in this fashion, you can get away with a lot.
A lot of development outside of public oversight, for example.
But the overt government has to deal with this other factor that's going on.
And so here we are in the middle of it.
The Aztec UFO Case Mystery00:15:08
So the overt government asks what are all these things that are going on in the skies that people have been seeing?
For decades.
So, your grandparents, you know, your parents, your great grandparents, they've all seen these.
It's all been part of the things that they've grown up with.
And we all are aware of it.
So, what's the answer?
And what you have in the government is a faction that is saying, all of this stuff is under control.
Don't worry about it.
There's nothing to see.
Leave it to us.
Yes, exactly.
And they've been really successful at doing that for a number of years.
But we're at a point where they realize that the technology is going to come out, that they've been hoarding, and let's say ostensibly now, just speaking on the record, 80 years, probably a lot, lot longer, but at least 80 years.
And that brings us back into World War II and that period.
The activity that we had going on in terms of aviation in World War II opened us up to this mystery in a dramatic fashion.
So that by the time you get to 1947, you're in the middle of the UFO file mystery with Kenneth Arnold's reports.
And he is a pilot who is going over Mount Rainier, and he's surrounded by these boomerang shaped UFOs.
And when he lands, he says, I'm seeing all these bizarre flying saucers.
They look like saucers the way they fly, they're skipping across a pond.
That's where the term saucer even came from.
Actually, what he was seeing was flying boomerangs.
And so there we were in 1947, there's a huge press conference, and everyone's like, That's a flying saucer.
Well, that's where the whole UFO field comes from.
But there were crashes, there were crash retrievals, and there are entire waves of sightings that go back much further than that.
But there's something key about this period when we get into 1947.
You're there, Kenneth Arnold, you're there with Roswell, and you're there with the creation of the national security state through the National Security Act.
So, what I would say about the UFO file is the roots that we're aware of start in the government in 1947, but the actual tangible roots go much further back.
Okay.
Okay.
The opithium term that you're using for the effect of this exotic technology.
What is the meaning of it exactly?
Apothium is the term that I use to describe the effects that the national security state had discovered when they were encountering during the time of re examining the actual artifacts that they had recovered.
And during that process, there were a number of unusual things that took place.
For one, they would find that there were effects of this when the scientists were studying it, that they could only study it for 20 minutes at a time, or they would get sick, for example.
They would also find that it would change things.
So, apotheum is a reality distortion physics, and that's the actual secret inside the UFO file.
And this is the nature of the secrecy and why all the secrecy exists.
Now, the secrecy around, hey, there's something here from somewhere else, yeah, that's a certain kind of secrecy.
And it might relate to religions, for example, it might relate to spiritual traditions and upset a general economy.
But that wouldn't be an excuse for this kind of secrecy.
The kind of secrecy you've seen over 80 years, this is very dramatic.
And the reason is because Apotheum represents a totally transformative type of technology, and they haven't learned in that time to master it completely.
So, if anyone gets their hands on it, what they say is basically it makes the atomic bomb look like a firecracker.
So, we're talking about an unpredictable technology and an unpredictable reality distortion effect, which is a physics that they haven't completely worked out at this point.
And it explains you know, if you really want the explanation for Apotheum, go into the contacte cases.
When I went back and read a number of John Mack's cases, who was the professor at Harvard who really brought this out in the 1990s, these contactees, when they were being abducted, would go through walls.
They would float through things.
Well, how does that work?
We had an abduction scenario in the 1960s where people were picked up on a highway, they'd get into a craft, people would examine them.
But these Mack cases were totally extraordinary.
Well, then I started to look into other cases where you'd have these totally competent pilots.
There's a famous case of a Japanese pilot flying over Alaska, and he's a commercial pilot.
And so we still have audio of this on the record where he's looking down and he's seeing this craft, mega sized craft, and he says, This thing is gigantic.
And then at a certain point, he says, Oh, wait, I can see through it.
So it's not totally even there.
It's sort of warped in and warped out.
Apotheum is exactly that effect.
It comes in, and then you have people talking about.
Well, I had missing time.
I was there for one minute.
I saw this thing, and then it was six hours later.
You find that electrical grids get disturbed.
You have all these electrical problems around lightning.
Whenever there are large waves of UFO sightings, there are large people getting struck by lightning as well.
So there's some crisscross when they show up.
And when those ships land, and we have all kinds of accounts of this, when they leave, nothing grows.
Where they were.
So there's a whole kind of physics that gets introduced, which is not consistent with our physical reality and the natural science physics that we understand.
So, a group inside the government said, We're going to study this.
No one's going to get near this, especially not other governments or the public.
And so there was a little bit of legitimacy around that in the beginning, but it turned into a whole secrecy bureaucracy.
And that's where we get the kind of schizophrenic reporting around the subject now.
Hmm.
Well, so these are UFO file wars.
Do we know when these wars were started and which government entities were involved?
Well, this is it.
This is really what we're doing tonight, which is the UFO file wars.
And the UFO file wars work like this there's a group in the government that says this stuff can never reach the public, plus we can utilize it and basically rule the world with the technology.
Not only that, but we might become a spacefaring civilization, and they are really in business because you take this technology to Mars, you go out, you rule the solar system, in fact.
So, this is the way that they're thinking about it.
Then you have another group, which I've called X Share, actually, and we'll get into that.
But X Share, there's a number of them in public life that you can see.
In certain administrations, like the JFK administration, if you look into what they were doing, their idea is freedom through transparency.
Sharing things with the public moves the whole culture.
Pretty opposite.
Yeah, this is a very different approach.
So those battles have been going on for a number of years, and they involve destroying reputations, assassinations.
Destruction of material, rewriting history, and media manipulation.
So, when you get into it, it's a very deep subject.
And what's interesting is we understand the UFO file almost from an entertainment level, growing up with it, et cetera, you know, different TV series and things.
But the truth is, it's right in the heart of geopolitics, finance, and military secrecy.
All these things navigate around this advanced technology, which is sitting in the middle of the government.
So, you have one group in there.
Trying to get it out, trying to share it, and the massive bureaucracy nowhere near, just completely disconnected from a very small group holding the secrecy of the UFO file.
Wow.
So, based on your research, why is the UFO file at the highest level of secrecy for the national security state?
Yeah, it is.
This is interesting, too, because we discovered this.
And there's a physicist, actually, there's a guy who we've tried to put on the record a lot, which is Robert Saabarker.
Who was celebrated?
He was on the cover of Time, Saturday Evening Post in the 50s and stuff.
This guy was supposed to advance science and everything else.
Now you can't even find a Wikipedia page on this guy.
He's disappeared.
But Sarah Barker was right up there with the main big physicist of the era.
And Einstein, he was a student of Einstein.
And in 1950, he gave an interview and said, Oh, yeah, we have the UFO file.
In fact, the UFO file is categorized higher than the nuclear secrecy.
Because that's the level of secrecy that it's on.
No one can get near it.
And then later in the 1980s, they checked in with him again.
Some UFO researchers were like, hey, this guy made some wild comments in the 1950s.
And there was a wave suddenly in the 80s of rediscovery of the UFO file.
And it's quite fascinating because he went on the record again.
He was like, yes, you know, there was a UFO file.
I can actually give you the lineage of who controlled it over the years.
And that's what's really particularly fascinating to me.
Because one of the individuals that he said who ran it was Vannevar Bush.
And Vannevar Bush was in charge of all the different kinds of secrecy programs around the atomic bomb in that era.
So it made sense, the people he was identifying.
But what he said was, oh, yeah, not only that, but we recovered crafts and beings.
And we were studying the beings because they had insect like qualities so that they could handle this sort of g force from the way, the speed at which these things flew.
And then he said, I don't know why this never got out to the public.
So Saarbacher is very unusual.
He died right after that interview.
And, you know, for me, we lost something important because he was one of those transparency X share people that I'm referring to here.
And later on, If we get a chance, we'll talk about Thomas Townsend Brown.
And when we realize that they were best friends, we can see inside the government, in the scientific community, in the military community, in the political community, there is a group that has been trying to advance things and are thwarted over and over again as far as getting this out to the larger culture.
Wow.
Okay.
It's the nature of Saarbrücker's story.
It is disturbing.
Yes.
Have we recovered UFOs and crash retrieval programs and how much of that research has been revealed?
This is the thing, right?
You and I have never seen a recovered craft, as far as I know.
Someone knows, we know.
But someone else has seen it.
And there are a number of credible accounts that not only have there been recoveries, but there have been redevelopment of these craft.
So I'm of the opinion, from a psychological point of view, that everybody's plugged into everybody else on some level.
And so there's a kind of collective unconscious understanding that these things have crashed, people have redeveloped them.
And then we move into the next thought around it.
In terms of actual credible evidence, they've kept that back.
And so we don't have a ship to show the public and say, hey, look, this is a UFO that crashed and this is where it came from.
So it's a kind of a deeper question in a way than it even appears because there's a case on record from 1948, which is the Aztec UFO case.
And if you look at all the players around the case of this.
Largely intact craft crashes.
And what you hear about all the time is Roswell and all these different things.
But the Aztec craft was intact.
It wasn't in tatters and destroyed in this farmer's field.
It was a whole craft which had apparently gone down because of a type of radar that we were using.
And when you get into that Aztec case, the Central Intelligence Agency, the bureaucracy try to discredit everyone involved with it.
And there are all these records of construction crews making ramps, pulling this thing off.
And then a lot of the scientists came forward.
In the period, and said, I worked on this.
And those people would end up under very difficult circumstances, either discredited or assassinated.
So that's the nature when you get around this.
And we'll get into X Protect, I'm sure, tonight.
But X Protect is the group that's assigned and in charge of this.
And so their whole point is don't let any of this out.
But the Aztec case and all the witnesses over the years.
Has come out.
And that's where we get some of these accounts of scientists saying, well, we had to take shifts when we were working on it.
And, you know, it was interesting because it looked like a certain size from the outside, but then when you walked into it, it was a lot larger.
So these are the things that are on the record.
So, absolutely, I would say, not only have we recovered craft, but we have tried to re engineer that process.
And that's the center, the problem with the nature of the exotic technology and the bureaucracy, because it represents a tremendous advantage for anyone who can figure it out or unlock it.
Which is just so sad that like people's lives aren't enough.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like, take them out more than information.
Yeah, and you do find that in areas of breakthrough energy, for example.
We have seen it where oil companies were charged with assassinating certain people who were involved in developing alternative energies because they were looking at this and saying, that's competition.
Yeah.
And the stories get brushed under the rug, but they're there and they've created a kind of widespread distrust, shall we say.
So people understand.
You know, it goes all the way back to the Kennedy assassination.
In fact, understandably, people look at it and say, something happened there that was never explained.
And, you know, when you have that internal bureaucracy assassinating its own president, you know, they've covered it up and now it's 60 years later and you still can't see the records.
So, this is the nature of this kind of cut off situation we find ourselves in.
Is X Protect, as you defined it, a rogue element in the government, CIA, NASA, aerospace, or something else?
It's a rogue element that operates, and where I think we get a major clue is in Jim Garrison's account.
Oswald, Garrison, and the Aerospace Mafia00:03:13
This is very interesting because Jim Garrison was the district attorney in New Orleans, and he was investigating the JFK murder.
And he kept coming up against the fact that people involved in the murder worked in aerospace, worked for NASA.
Work for different military aerospace connected companies.
And he wondered, you know, where is this coming from?
So, what he determined at a certain point around 1967, he was talking to the editor of Rampert's Magazine.
And this is a conversation that's recalled years later by Hinkle, who was the editor for Rampert's Magazine.
And what he has to say is very interesting.
He said that Garrison got him on the phone and said, you know, it's fascinating.
We were looking at this totally wrong.
We thought the people who were involved in the Kennedy assassination were Texas oil men.
Actually, it was the aerospace wing of the military industrial complex.
So, when we take it from that angle, and that's somebody who brought an actual legal case in the assassination, when we take it from that angle, we start to get hints.
For people who've investigated, they keep running into this thing.
Now, if you go a little bit further with that thing, you're going to find that a lot of the people around the UFO file.
Also, are around the assassinations that take place in history.
So, we look at, for example, Lee Harvey Oswald, when Garrison was looking into him, he was famously the alleged assassin of President Kennedy.
Oswald worked for a figure, a shadowy figure, named Guy Bannister in New Orleans.
He was a private eye, basically.
And so, he hired Oswald to do a number of things that people just don't know, but it was the summer before the assassination.
If you go into his background, you're going to find that in 1947, for the FBI, as the chief of the FBI office in Chicago, he was the one who came up with the term X file, using security matter X as what UFOs were.
And he went around investigating the various cases.
There are all these newspaper reports of this guy.
So here's this guy turning back up on the scene right around the Kennedy assassination.
Guy Bannister.
I actually knew him because I was in the FBI with him because Garrison was in the FBI.
And then he said, What was Oswald doing working for this guy?
First of all, he's a right winger, and Oswald was supposed to be a communist.
So everywhere he went, he kept encountering this thing.
And if you go around the assassinations of the 1960s, you find over and over again this wall of UFO connections.
So I would say the X Protect group is the group assigned, a very small group.
That's assigned somewhere between the aerospace wing and the intelligence wing.
And their job is if anyone gets close to that or moving it out into the public, then you discredit them or you kind of use the media against them.
And the final thing, I think, is you get rid of them.
Retaliation.
Yeah.
Nuclear Weapons and German Satellites00:09:15
In every way.
Yeah, right, right.
You could think of them as kind of like an aerospace mafia.
Yeah.
That's the way I would look at them.
UFO Cosa Nostra.
What are the key differences between X Protect, X Share, and the Breakaway Group?
And can we say it comes down to basically secrecy versus transparency?
Yeah, if you have those two factions in there, and so the breakaway group is part of expertise.
Yeah, tell me more about this breakaway group.
So the breakaway group, what they do basically, they've studied the technology for at least 80 years.
I say longer, but let's at least put it there.
They've been able to manipulate that technology to a totally different level.
And their whole point of departure from the regular civilization is once you, you know, the way science works, you get certain types of discovery, and then everyone else works off that discovery, and you get, you know, advanced physics and everything else.
But if that's all a secret process, then you have a secret science, secret medicine, you know, secret understandings, you know, time warps, all that type of stuff is all contained in.
A totally separate line of research.
So, if we go back into, for example, Nazi Germany, there's a very interesting tale that Paul Mellon put on the record to his grandson, John Warner IV, who is the son of Senator Warner of Virginia, the late senator.
And so, John Warner came on the program and told me this story about his grandfather telling him in the 1980s that after the war, you know, he was behind enemy lines and they were inspecting different things.
And in that German underground basis where they had advanced technology, the V 2 rockets and all this other stuff, he was standing on top of a craft that was as big as a football field and a half.
And that's something that the Germans had.
Just a little small.
In 1945, think about this.
So, you know, I mean, you understand when you look at it that way, they already had that technology then.
So then later, you know, we get Apollo, and there's a kind of a sideshow for the public largely.
But we had much more advanced things.
The Germans had them going in.
There are a lot of questions raised about where they come from.
How did the Germans become that advanced?
But there's someone who was there on the inside looking at this and telling off the record to his grandson, you know, just so you know, I saw one of these craft.
So something that size that was kept underground that could fly, something that we got under our programs studied, and we can do it too.
That's 1945.
So, how far ahead on the aerospace side are they versus what we see?
You know, SpaceX and all the rest.
So, when you think about the breakaway, think about them as a group buried right in the center of advanced technology and aerospace and controlling a lot of the political landscape with that ability of basically ruling things from above.
So, you know, you might say, well, we have satellites, we have all these different things.
And with that, there's a number of people who look at this and are fearing more and more that privacy is gone and there's too much dependence on these low Earth orbit satellites for everything, right?
We're already depending on them for driving our cars and everything else and communications.
But when you think about what we know about and then realize they're at least, I would say, at least 50 years ahead.
So, what's actually been going on in space?
I move right into the breakaway situation in relation to the fact that we stopped the moon missions in 1972, no explanation.
You know, spent all this money on it.
Kennedy ordered it to be done before the 60s were done.
And then they just stop.
No more manned moon landings.
And you know what?
They announced hey, this year we have Artemis.
In November, we're going to land somebody, a woman, on the moon.
Well, that's great, but it's 52 years later.
What happened in between?
Yeah.
Where'd it go?
That's the breakaway.
They've been operating and they're able to keep their operations outside of the public.
So, you know, you're right in the heart of it.
You can kind of see.
Their footprints.
And all you have to do is sit down with somebody like a NASA historian and say, What happened to the moon program?
There's no explanation.
We have to find these people and ask them.
Well, so what is the secret of the UFO file that would cause an entire bureaucracy to be at war, basically, with itself?
And is it over the patent of exotic technology or something else?
Well, there are patents involved.
So this is a really key point.
The war of the UFO file works like this.
With the advanced technology, you have a few considerations.
America has it, who else has it?
And when you get into America's level of advanced technology, you're looking at what we understand the X Protect group and everything else.
In Russia, they have a UFO file program that's just as advanced, or maybe just a little under, than ours.
They've been studying it for a long time, and they're very advanced around space.
So you start to see the UFO file plays beyond just.
You know, the hegemony of the United States.
And you're looking at countries like India and China, they say, we have our own moon missions, we have our own space programs.
And then you have SpaceX saying, well, we're going to do space tourism, you're going to have all this kind of thing.
So you have to come up with some sort of facade for the public that, oh, yeah, there are, you know, there's some craft out there, you know.
And so they're coming up with the story that they would like to lay out about it.
And the problem is, over the course of time, the UFO file wars have gone something like this.
If the United States were to come out and say anything, it might open up a tremendous advantage for a country like Russia, for example, to see what we've been up to.
And on their most secret level, they know a lot about the United States and our programs.
So there's always, you know, around the times of different wars, like the Ukraine war, there's strange language that comes in.
And at a certain point, you'll see in a Moscow headline, we shot down some UFOs that came over.
RAF space.
They don't say Ukraine planes, they call them UFOs.
As if to say, we know your technology and we know that you're operating these redeveloped UFOs.
We're just going to, at certain points, let you know and show our cards and say, we know that you're doing this.
At other times, when they've interviewed different leaders in Russia, Medvedev is one that comes to mind.
He'll say things like, we have other things.
And we're talking about a killer asteroid that was out there.
Like, how would you?
Get rid of it if it was heading for Russia.
And they said, Would you use a nuclear weapon?
And he said, Oh, we have other things besides nuclear weapons.
So these are the hints that let us know.
And if you go back, and I'm sure we'll talk about Reagan and Gorbachev at some point tonight, but if you go back into Reagan and Gorbachev, then you're looking at a period of time where they come together and they say, We're going to have a zero option.
And it's at Reykjavik in Iceland when they get together and do this, and they say, No more nuclear weapons.
We're going to eliminate them completely.
And the zero option they were going to sign.
So the question becomes in 1987, what could you replace every nuclear weapon on Earth with?
Because they were that close and they decided, no, we're not going to do it.
And right around that time, you've got all those very unusual statements by President Reagan at the UN saying, you know, well, if there was an alien threat, I wonder, wouldn't we forget all about our differences?
Over and over again, Reagan keeps bringing in this idea of an alien threat, which is very unusual.
And he spoke in private.
With Gorbachev about it, saying, You know, I've been looking at these things.
If they attack us, will you help us?
Those are questions that are on the record now.
The question is, What does it mean?
So I think that's where it leaves us.
Yeah.
So is the UFO file secrecy sustainable in a compartmentalized government infrastructure?
Because along with the controlled leaks, could we see genuine UFO disclosures accidentally leaking out?
And what would happen if it did?
This is the thing.
Bureaucratic Clashes and False Disclosures00:03:12
So they're intending one type of false disclosure.
So we'll give the public this story because certain things have got out.
We can't prevent them from doing that.
We have to give them something.
Right.
So, since the policy in the media since 2017 is, oh, it's okay to talk about UFOs, even promote them, that's pretty shocking.
So the question is, why?
Right.
So they realize, okay, we need a story.
The only problem that we're seeing with that story is that everyone who helms it, Everyone who comes out and says, I'm a whistleblower, and all the rest, is connected either with the Central Intelligence Agency, the NRO, ultra secret agency, or all the IC, you know, the intelligence community, that whole piece.
You never have it as just, oh, it's a real whistleblower.
They're always connected as part of this program.
And they get carte blanche, you know, they become the heroes of GQ magazine, and they get History Channel specials, and all these different things.
That is all entirely under a program of This government operating trying to get this particular wave of UFO disclosure out.
Now, you can ask, isn't that better than nothing?
And a lot of people say that.
To me, they're like, so what if it's CIA disclosure?
Problem is, the intelligence agencies are incredibly known liars.
And they've committed criminal acts and they've been investigated over and over again.
So you already have an out of control bureaucracy, which is something that if you go back in history, you have congressional hearings and oversight on CIA atrocities.
Overthrowing governments, political assassinations, you know, what have you.
In fact, when we go back to the 60 year anniversary of JFK's assassination, it's a battle between the presidency, the executive branch, and this thing, which started in 1947 as an extra constitutional activity, which was just supposed to collect information and feed it back to the president, but instead got their own Air Force, did their own operations, and got us into a series of wars because of where their own loyalties were lying.
So, this is the nature of the problem with the current wave of disclosure.
The question is while they're in the middle of it, if people who know enough start coming out with the real thing, then it's a clash.
And then you see those forces.
This is part of the UFO file wars.
The other interesting piece of this is if the UFO file piece comes out in some way that's unexpected to them, how do they react to it?
So, it's a possibility for sure.
Disclosure.
In that sense, it could work as an accident and then they'd have to recover.
But I think the way that they're planning it is this incredibly limited thing that is attached to a UFO defense office for military purposes with a gigantic UFO defense budget.
That's what you're seeing played out through the media.
And I find myself in the middle of those problems myself with many of those figures trying to discredit the work that I do because they're afraid of this information coming out.
Eisenhower Administration Space Secrecy00:15:16
Well, that's good advice.
I was going to say sometimes you become part of the story that you're working on.
It's you.
So, what were your experiences with the UFO whistleblower, David Grosh?
This is very interesting.
This is someone who came out of the NRO, and he originally said he was put before Congress, and he went in the background and said, I've seen these people when I was working on the UAP Task Force, which was a government entity that was put together to sift through these various reports in order to help set up this UFO Defense Office.
And he was on the task force and he came forward and he said, I've talked to people who say they've seen craft that we've redeveloped and that we're keeping in hangars.
And, you know, he went into saying, oh, we have biologics and all these wild claims, all the while not saying that he'd seen any of it, but that other people were telling him these things.
Well, because he testified before Congress recently on the classified special access program.
He did, yes, exactly.
And originally he came out on News Nation.
And he gave these interviews to Russ Coldheart.
And a few things came out about Grush that made his testimony a little bit tricky, including the fact that he'd had some psychological issues in his background.
Now, that aside, let's just deal with his testimony for a moment.
One of the pieces of testimony in his background, or that he gave, was that when talking before Congress, he said, I can tell you all these things, but we have to go into The SCIF.
The SCIF, the SCIF.
This is a secure compartment inside the government that can't be intercepted, and you need a certain type of clearance.
So they were able over and over again to not have this happen.
So he could say basically anything.
So I was open to the idea that maybe he was legitimate.
But then the same people that had been putting out the CIA UFO threat piece through the New York Times and that very limited disclosure thing, like, oh, we have secrets, and there's a threat, and let's build this UFO defense against this threat.
And they were getting this kind of free ride with no real questions.
So he got into that sphere of those people.
So by the time he came to me, it was mid December of 2023.
Pretty recent.
It was an interesting conversation.
I will say that we talked for about three hours, and he said that he'd been watching the show for a number of years.
He was very interested in the content, and it helped him navigate through the government agencies, et cetera.
But he was saying that.
He was being held back from appearing with me or talking with me about these things by a figure in the middle of all this named Chris Mellon.
And this is a Department of Defense official, intelligence official, who was saying to him, if you do that, there will be blowback.
That's the way he described it to me.
So basically, you know, UFO Cosa Nostra, right?
You know, it would be very unfortunate if you were to go on this guy's program, you know?
So it was like a mafia type thing.
So I said, you're going to leave it at that?
Wait a minute.
You are a UFO whistleblower, supposed to take down this entire thing.
Here you are with this military history and all the rest.
There are all these TV specials on you, and this one guy will prevent you from talking to journalists and taking tough questions?
How does that work?
So he disappeared.
And then Mellon, what I call the Mellon team, they came out and they tried to discredit everything that we were saying in relation to this.
And so today, just as we were coming on air, the OPL was.
The end of the Mom Wars.
This is happening right now.
Now they ignited.
And I'll give a little review.
Of those, you know, we'll sort of pop those in.
But the question really is why are these people so damn afraid of having real questions laid out at them?
They want to roll out this false version with false whistleblowers and they want to create this impression of the UFO file.
It's this contained thing.
You can only see it in the SCIF.
You know, the government's helping you out.
Don't worry about that money that's, you know, disappearing $22 trillion.
Out of the budget.
Gee, where did that go?
It's missing.
Well, don't worry.
They're dealing, they're creating a UFO defense office.
No problem.
So the media lets them get away with this.
And this is the nature of the bureaucracy itself and the bureaucratic fighting that's going on around this.
And you have the media on board, you have the national security state on board, and then you just have this row of independent journalists calling it out.
And what they're trying to do, that structure is trying to co opt those journalists.
There's one guy.
That's a lot of people know very well.
His name is Michael Schellenberger.
He's a great journalist.
He does all these terrific pieces on the government hiding things about pharmaceutical influence and all that kind of thing.
He's well respected.
So, as soon as Grush came out, he'd never done anything around the UFO file before.
So, Schellenberger said, I'm going to get into this.
And as soon as he did, he said 12 intel officials got in touch with him and told him all these background secrets about the UFO file.
And he's like, Now we know, you know, and the CIA is going to give us disclosure and all the rest.
This is how they operate.
So they come in the background and they say, Oh, Kelsey, you're interested in this subject.
I'll tell you what, I'm going to let you know what's going on in the background in the SCIF.
Don't worry.
That secure, compartmentalized information, you're going to get it.
Just, you know, lay back.
Don't criticize us too much, you know, and you're going to be like a fly on the wall when we roll out the big thing.
This is how they did it.
And they did a little bit of that with me, too.
I was going to say, it'd be so nice if you would fall in line.
It would make things a lot easier.
So I responded to Schellenberger and I said, you know, it's great that you're into the UFO file now, but don't, you know, the last people you want to go to in the world for disclosure or transparency are the intelligence agencies.
They're not there to give the American public the truth.
Come on.
They've been blocking the truth for 80 years.
Keep trying.
Exactly.
Well, so.
You've referred to the breakaway group hoarding the advanced technology for decades now.
How are they breaking back in and how is this process working?
The break in, right?
This is very interesting.
So, the breakaways, they separated themselves with the advanced technology.
At a certain point, 80 years at least in development, like I said, it goes back a lot further, but I'll use the 1947 as a basic standard.
Those guys, at a certain point, are like, we're sitting around with this very advanced stuff, and you know, there's a whole marketing.
Piece to it.
There's a whole centralization piece to it.
We have an entire society right now that's set up with biometrics.
This is the time to roll out this other thing.
And how do we do it though?
We need a story.
So, the story that they need, they've been trying to come up with these intelligence whistleblowers instead of the actual story, which would be told by the real kind of whistleblowers.
But X Protect has been there in place so that the X share people over and over again, their voices that have been raised, they get cut down because the media is in bed with the intelligence agencies.
There's no other way to put it.
Now, what you can find when you look deep into this process is that the breakaways have been.
Whispering in the back of Congress.
And suddenly you have these kind of crony politicians wheeling up to the microphone and saying, That's extraterrestrial.
That's extradimensional.
We're getting secret information from the intelligence agencies.
I kid you not, these people have no interest.
Like, where did they come from?
They've never expressed any interest in the UFO file ever, but here they are.
It's because someone in the background, and I have a whole list of congressmen and senators, from Senator Gillibrand to Rubio, and someone is whispering to them in the background.
UFO technology, UAP technology.
You know, the breakaways are saying, we're going to roll this out, be on the gravy train, and you better start talking about it now.
Their version of it, not the real thing.
That's a very important distinction.
So it used to be you had the skeptics' version, there are no UFOs.
Then you had the believers, they were like, this thing is real.
Well, now they've decided, okay, we've studied the people who think it's real, we're going to imitate them and create a phony version of disclosure, and we'll get off of the skeptic thing, we'll make it work for us.
And one of the motivations, I think, around this, Is in 2016, they did a massive study.
And at the time, in 2016, the top Google search at the end of the year was UFO.
Really?
Yes.
And it's funny because in 2017, at the end of that year, they came out with all the phony whistleblowers.
They said, we can use this because the dam is breaking.
People are too interested in the subject.
Here we are.
We'll use it to our advantage.
So now we have a false version of it.
So then somebody like you or I find ourselves with people.
Who used to believe in the UFO file, and they say, Oh, this is great, because hey, they're talking about UFOs, it's the real thing, but it's the Intel version, it's not the real version.
So they're just getting smoked, just like they were in the beginning when they said, Oh, no, it doesn't exist.
So this is the nature of the UFO file wars in public.
These are the parameters in the kind of information wars.
Because everything on the internet's true anyway, right?
Exactly.
So, are U.S. presidents read into the UFO file, or which commanders in chiefs were aware of the actual exotic technology?
There's been a major tension since day one on the UFO file and the presidents.
And this goes back to Harry Truman.
Now, it's interesting because Truman, when he's president, he's president during Roswell, he's president during the Aztec crashes.
He's there in the middle of the Kenneth Arnold UFO flying saucer craze.
So, he's the first president that has to deal with it publicly.
And what's interesting is if you go back on Harry Truman to Cape Girardeau, Missouri, he was the senator in 1941 when there was a large scale crash, way before Roswell, right before Aztec.
So we're looking at a different era that he comes out of, and he was a natural fit for this.
He'd already dealt with the secrecy around a UFO crash.
And he's the one who developed the Majestic 12 group to handle this, and he put Vannevar Bush and various scientists and Defense Department officials in.
Including James Forrestal, who we've talked about, on this.
And Forrestal was interesting as a choice for this because he was somebody who was part of the X Share piece and he said, we need to move this forward.
There's no way we can keep this secret.
And so, you know, shortly thereafter, he died under mysterious circumstances out a window in Bethesda Hospital.
Now, if you look at that, you see that he's an early casualty of X Protect.
And Truman moves through that period, hands it off to Eisenhower.
Well, Eisenhower is very interesting because he handles it and says, We need to get this ramped up, this technology.
We've just fought World War II.
We need to be number one with the UFO secrecy and make sure none of it gets out.
So, the group that's in the background during the Eisenhower administration figures out we need to kind of remove this from presidential control.
And the way that we can do it is by putting it into corporate hands, which don't have the ability to track back through government and, in fact, keep private records.
Of the corporation, which can't be gotten at in a legal situation.
So the government is always vulnerable on that side of secrecy.
And somewhere during, it's kind of understood during that period of time, the Eisenhower administration is when the UFO file slips from government control by the president to this other thing.
The X Protect group takes over, and their tentacles are in the government, but they actually reside inside of a corporate, quasi corporate political structure.
So they're half defense contractor.
Half CIA.
So Lockheed Martin is the best candidate for this as a defense contractor.
Still making tons of money in wars at our expense whenever there's a major war.
You're going to find Lockheed or Boeing right in the heart of it.
So by the time you get to Kennedy and then the speech by Eisenhower, you know, on his way out, he says we need to watch out for the military industrial complex.
It's fascinating because Eisenhower was in charge of, you know, our whole command as a general during D Day, World War II, and everything.
He's warning against his own military.
That's a gigantic move just before he hands off the baton to JFK.
And he says to JFK in private, This is what I know about the UFO file.
You need to get it back under executive control.
Kennedy, when he gets into the White House, says, I can't believe how much CIA has control over everything that we're doing.
And what we need to do is dismantle the CIA.
And so this sets up the tension for the three years, very short presidency of President Kennedy.
And in that period of time, he goes to battle against the CIA when they try to get him into a war in Cuba, for example.
Eventually, he makes a number of plans involving releasing the UFO file and sharing it with the Russians, which is anathema to that deep state.
And, you know, I've put a number of details about this on record.
One of the important details is the Watergate attorney, Douglas Caddy, told me that E. Howard Hunt, who was his friend, told him in private that Kennedy was assassinated over the UFO file.
Well, Kennedy had made a number of moves just before his assassination, including on November 12th.
Issuing a memo to the CIA to give him all of the high threat cases from their files dealing with the UFO file so that he could share it with his Russian counterparts.
And then he had announced a joint moon mission, not Americans go to the moon by themselves.
So, we, with the dreaded enemies of that kind of Nazi peace that had ingratiated itself into NASA after World War II, then he wants to go to the moon with the dreaded enemies of these people.
Trump, Tesla, and JFK Assassination00:06:54
They don't want to share that advanced technology.
They don't want to share the UFO file with the Russians.
They don't want the culture to learn from it.
And Kennedy's assassination, you know, we've learned from a number of different positions.
The Central Intelligence Agency was against him, the Federal Reserve, these other things.
But really, the UFO file is the deal breaker because the advanced technology is their entire plan going forward.
And that whole thing, which was developed actually in Nazi Germany of ruling things on the ground from space, it actually comes out of a rocket program in Germany.
So, we inherited it and bolstered it as part of our own national security state.
Here we are in the middle of that, and you find yourself surrounded by a tremendous amount of space secrecy.
Now, when you move through those presidents, and we'll do it very quickly, when you go to Reagan, he's in the middle of looking at images by a scientist named Norm Berggren, who shows him craft inside the rings of Saturn, sort of camouflaged.
This is what he's looking at security footage.
And so Berggren describes this briefing, and he eventually wrote a book called Ringmakers of Saturn about these craft that were hanging out around Saturn.
So it sounds pretty far out, but Reagan's looking at it as scientific data, and this is again this period of time where Reagan starts to talk very strangely at UN hearings and in meetings about the UFO file.
If there's an alien threat, he tells his Russian counterpart, Will you join with us?
So in the middle of this period, he creates a program called the Strategic Defense Initiative.
Which is a massive program from space to disable any weapon on Earth.
And SDI becomes nicknamed Star Wars after the movie, and trillions of dollars are put behind it.
We should say billions that secretly turn into trillions of dollars.
What happened is that this brings the Russians to the table of negotiation because they say, What are you doing with this advanced stuff in space?
And that brings about this massive reduction thing.
And then SDI kind of, it seems like it goes away.
Well, there's some joint program there that when we developed SDI, what actually happened is we attracted more attention from whatever this other thing was.
And that's when you see all of the UFO sightings and all of these things go off the charts.
So we're in the middle of his presidency.
He's saying to people, well, I actually chased a UFO, you know, with Air Force One.
There's a pilot that's gone on record about it.
He has Steven Spielberg at the White House, and they debut.
The movie E.T.
And he says, you know, everyone in this room knows that's not fantasy.
This is what he's saying in the middle of all this.
So, Reagan is very, very aware on the UFO file side.
Unfortunately, the CIA has such a presence in that period that they convinced him everything UFO oriented is a threat and that they need to build up, you know, Star Wars and all these types of things.
When you move through those periods into Bush and Obama and all the rest of it, they do a good deal to keep it completely under wraps.
They don't want even Reagan style talking at the UN about aliens, they keep it very under wraps.
And it is the Trump presidency where they run into problems again in the national security state.
Now, this is a very non political statement, but I can tell you the main problem that the deep state players have with somebody like Trump is his uncle, because Trump's uncle was John Trump, Professor John Trump, and he worked with Vannevar Bush.
In fact, Vannevar Bush is something I put on the record, was the protege.
John Trump was Vannevar Bush's protege.
If you go through those records, you'll find a very unusual thing that Nikola Tesla's records, when he dies in 1943, the FBI orders in a scientist to go inspect those papers looking for information about taking down flying objects at a distance.
This is a crucial piece.
The person they send in is John Trump.
John Trump, working with Vannevar Bush, knows a great deal about the UFO file.
He knows a great deal now about the Tesla information.
That information goes underground.
The astronaut Gordon Cooper.
Years later, in a bio, he says, Not only are UFOs real, I've seen them, I've seen the films, the government has covered it up, etc.
But he says that in the Tesla papers, the thing that they became afraid of was the information in there also related to a same similar type effect that I was talking about with Apothian.
So they were worried that the Russians had the information through Tesla and that basically Tesla had been spied on.
That's where SDI came from.
So both of them are suggesting there's.
Unlimited technology inside of the UFO file and the Tesla work, and that there's a crisscross there.
The person that's at the apex who knows both about the secrecy about the UFO file and the Tesla files is John Trump.
Well, recently you have Trump out there, you know, and he's talking along, and they have this guy they're suggesting Vivek Ramaswamy is going to be his running mate.
Well, this guy in Iowa during the campaign starts talking about the UFO file, and he says, you know what?
We should release all these UFO files to the public.
Then he appears with Trump at a campaign event.
Trump goes up to the microphone, I kid you not, and starts musing about his Uncle John.
Oh, Uncle John, if Uncle John could be here, you know, he told me so many secrets.
Uncle John this, Uncle John that.
If you go and you actually look at it and take yourselves outside of the geopolitical news spin around all this, you get a real snapshot of the UFO file wars when you see.
Trump out there on one hand talking about this, and then you see the CIA out here on the other hand talking about it.
There's the clash, and you know those people can't stand each other.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, if you talk about Trump in certain circles, you have to peel people off the ceiling.
There's a reason for that that goes far beyond the whole loudmouth real estate person.
Though deep state people don't appreciate people on the same level looking and dealing with them, and this is the nature of where we find ourselves with it.
Wherever someone comes down on the political side, look at the background of Uncle John Trump, professor at MIT, the protege of Vannevar Bush, who ran the UFO file, who investigated Tesla's secret work.
19th Century Masonic Timeline Analysis00:12:12
The crisscross there is undeniable.
There's a big opening for understanding the UFO file wars.
There's so much more to dig into.
Well, so what is the historical timeline of the UFO file and the secret space program?
Crucial question.
You know, the timeline works traditionally from 1947.
And like I said, we'll go with it, but Cape Girardeau happens in 41.
In essence, there's a great deal of research on a group called NYMZA.
N Y M Z A.
This is a German group that's an aerospace group in the 19th century.
Who comes over to America and starts something called the Sonora Aero Club.
Sonora Aero Club.
And far before the Wright brothers, far before all that, they're already doing test flights and they already have an advanced thing.
So when we get to 1897, there's a gigantic airship mystery.
People see these airships they've never seen before.
There's all this clamor, there's news headlines.
It's called the airship wave of 1897.
Well, we didn't have planes then.
So, who was operating it?
Well, interestingly enough, there are a few organizations that were involved, and it boils back down to this group NIMSA, which there's a writer out there named Walter Bosley who tracked into this history.
Well, when you think of how far back that is, and you realize, okay, they've been hiding this for a long period of time, by the time we get it rolled out to the public around aviation, et cetera, they're already advanced.
They've already been flying around in the 19th century.
So, we start to wonder when we look at the timelines what the actual UFO file is versus who's here that just has advanced technology.
Forget about the AT question for a moment.
Who is here that in the 19th century could fly things when we didn't have planes?
This is, you know, so it makes the timeline a lot shakier.
But when you get to the question of the secret space program, one of the key things that happened for us to understand that there is a secret space program.
Is they had a hacker into NASA.
This happened around 2002.
A guy's name was Gary McKinnon, and boy, did they want him bad.
He was in the UK, and he still is around now.
He doesn't really talk too much about it, but they wanted him over here, and because he had Asperger's, there was some kind of a deal made where he could stay in the UK as long as he stopped hacking into NASA.
While he was hacked into NASA, he saw an off world officers list.
The off world officers list was people who were operating as astronauts in deep space.
We don't know anything about this program at all.
So NASA never talks about it.
They don't have a program like that.
So who's running it?
Those are the things that he found out about.
And he also, you know, there were certain groups called Solar Warden.
These are the things that he went on the record about.
Later, we got more documents out of the government saying, oh, yeah, well, we are operating things in space that we try to keep.
Secret.
The NRO, the National Reconnaissance Office, they kept their actual office secret from 1960 until 1993.
So it is possible to have an agency doing all this, like the Secret Space Program, without it being a public thing that you and I know about, funded by this deeper system.
The problem is the disconnect from the public having any oversight about it.
So that's really where we find ourselves as far as the timeline goes.
There's no real disclosure around the secret space program, and there's no real disclosure, for example, about the 50 years of manned space history from 1972 to 2024.
That's so wild.
Yeah, SSP for short.
And it's interesting because, you know, we've done conferences on the secret space program.
And, you know, there's a weird kind of comic book version of it that Gaia TV runs, it's like sidelining with this hard deep state geopolitical analysis, which includes financial analysis about secret systems of finance.
And Gaia TV's thing is like, oh, it's a secret space program, you know, there are kind of Triangle head aliens out there, you know, whatever it is.
So there's an entertainment thing that slowly kind of shadows the secret space work.
What that tells me is the ability to discredit it is the effort to discredit it is operated by the same groups trying to hold that technology under wraps.
So, your UFO research is very different from others in the field, as we all know and appreciate.
Because specifically, you mentioned mystery schools and secret societies being involved.
What is that connection?
In my opinion, this is the crucial aspect that's been missing in the analysis around the UFO file, and it can open it up for all of us.
So, if we look at mystery schools, there are public mystery schools, and there's a wave of this that happens in the late 19th century.
So, we'll look at it through the figure of Rudolf Steiner.
Steiner starts the Anthroposophical Society, and he's a mystic, he's a scholar, and he incorporates all of these things that we know now biodynamic farming, for example.
This is the guy who came up with Eurythmy and a number of different real innovations.
This guy was no lightweight.
And one of the incredible things that he put on the record was that.
There was advanced technology breaking in to the timeline, so that by the time we got to the 21st century, in fact, there would be almost like an astral force that was coming in through the technology.
This is very odd language for that period of time.
Also, his descriptions, I looked at a lecture of his, for example, from 1920, basically sounds like he's describing the internet in great detail.
But he talks about this thing called the eighth sphere.
And the eighth sphere, if you take it from 1920 to 2024, sounds exactly like meta or virtual reality and those types of things.
And he talks about the kind of invention there of beings.
So the eighth sphere beings sounds very much, in fact, like what we're seeing in reports alien greys and things of that nature.
So that's one large hint that they were trying to put something out there through the mystery schools and let the culture know, inform the culture along the way.
If you go into the work of Aleister Crowley, he talks to a figure named Lamb.
And Aleister Crowley is known as like this famous black magician and all the rest.
But if you look at those pictures of Lamb, it looks exactly like what we call an alien gray now with the large head and all the rest.
So there are hints there in this literature, and they start referring back to a time in prehistory when humanity possessed the technology.
This is the fascinating curveball in all of it, which is that it's an old technology that has been rediscovered.
By humanity.
And they don't attribute it, it's not like there's some ET force coming in.
The mystery school aspect is fascinating also because the people who study the UFO file, for example, J. Allen Hynek, very famous researcher, was involved with Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
And he was originally part of Project Blue Book, and then he realized the government was shafting the public, and he said, I'm going to bring this information out.
At a certain point in time, he says the answer to the UFO file could be found in Steiner's work on theosophy.
And if you look at Steiner's work on theosophy, you're going to find a number of things about the eighth sphere and these elemental beings.
A lot of the theories that get traded around now of plasma beings, this is becoming almost mainline science.
So when you get into this, you start to see that people involved very deeply with the UFO file and NASA.
Like Jack Parsons, for example, were close companions with Aleister Crowley.
Well, Jack Parsons is the father of our rocket program, and you have this occult imprint all around the space aspect.
Whenever you get around NASA, you're dealing with occultists, you're dealing with Masonic imagery over and over again.
They schedule the dates in a very occult or Masonic fashion.
And it's been really well tracked to such a point where they said, We're going to stop even guessing at this.
They would bring Masonic flags up to the moon and things of this nature.
The Masonic thing comes out of an occult mystery tradition as well.
So, when we're looking at space, we're looking at a whole kind of mysticism and religion that goes far beyond, hey, these guys have advanced technology.
The technology is crucial, but you might start to realize when you study it that there's something coming through, the action of coming through the technology.
This is the whole thing when they talk about interdimensionals and things of this nature.
Well, there's a gigantic You know, collider, Hadron Collider out there at CERN.
And the whole point of this thing is to smash all these particles together so that they can open up into other dimensions.
This is what it's all about.
Well, the thing is funded every year billions of dollars.
And who's behind that?
One of the unusual things that they said they were trying to do in the middle of CERN when they got questioned about it was communicate with other dimensions.
So we find ourselves, when you get around the scientific aspect, Around the UFO file, you're dealing with a large scale astral and mystery piece, which has nothing to do with what we hear about traditional reports.
There's a fast ship, this thing took off faster than lightning, or I was abducted, or anything like that.
This is more along the lines of going into the mysteries of apparitions and things of that nature.
There's a gigantic crisscross with it, and it's interesting because.
The first person who brings the UFO file online is Kenneth Arnold.
He's the one who's in Mount Rainier and he sees these flying saucers.
So, when he's done giving this news report out, he goes into this city and he shows up at a hotel room.
And he says, I'd like to get a room, you know, and they say, Your room is all ready for you.
And so, this gets very unusual, but the upshot is this all of these unusual things happen to him, and then he starts to get calls while he's in this hotel room.
From people who are telling him everything that he did the day previously in minute detail.
Whenever you get around the UFO file, you get around this other almost supernatural aspect.
And there's a number of researchers.
John Keel was one, famously.
Theosophical Society and Eighth Sphere Beings00:06:11
He wrote the Mothman Prophecies, which they made into a movie.
And it captures his activities of going and studying a UFO wave when he was in West Virginia and the number of unusual things that happened to the people involved.
Including the fact that whenever he was down there, he was getting calls from an electronic voice telling him, This is what's going to happen to you tomorrow.
So, whenever people get into the real study, you're starting to deal with a very spooky aspect.
When you deal on the mystery side and the mystery school aspect of this, Steiner's work was all about this is an astral phenomena.
And that's what we really need to look at.
And that in the 20th century, the great challenge for humanity.
Was going to be this astral phenomena coming through the technology.
That's how you get the idea of AI manifesting as a being or cybernetics, whatever it happens to be, the creation of this ultimate cyborg.
This has a very old mystery tradition attached to it.
And that's, the occult imagery is undeniable.
Well, so let's go a little deeper on Rudolf Steiner's Anthroposophy.
Yes.
What is Armin and the eighth sphere beings?
Yeah, that really crisscrosses with what we were just talking about, and it's interesting because I'm glad you brought the eighth sphere back up.
One of the key functions of the eighth sphere is advanced technology.
So here's this guy who's a mystic looking out into our future in the 1920s and telling us you're going to be facing more and more wars, you're going to be facing more and more materialism.
And he tracks back the story and he says, you know, in 1840, There was an incredible movement towards scientific materialism.
And a number of these schools who had kept secrets for decades, centuries, from the public relating to advanced technology, the actual past, things of this nature, arcane secrets, were in fact came together and decided, you know, humanity is not going to be recognizable in 100 years.
This whole thing is going to be over.
So we have to let out some of the secrets.
That we've been keeping all these years.
And then you find these weird waves of spiritualism coming in in the 1860s.
Abraham Lincoln was caught up in it.
And there's a whole phenomenon of seances and things of this nature.
There's a gigantic wave that happens there.
No one really can explain it.
Suddenly in 1875, Helena Blavatsky shows up.
And Blavatsky is very interesting because she's from Russia and she says, I'm going to found the Theosophical Society.
It's all reincarnation.
It's all psychic experience.
It's all life after death.
And it causes this incredible kerrang in the culture, so much so that by the time you get to the 1960s, all that stuff is embedded.
But it all comes from the Theosophical Society.
Steiner himself came out of the Theosophical Society.
So there's a wave there that was trying to instruct the 21st century about what we were stepping into.
The period we were stepping into.
Well, and how can what he wrote in the 1920s be applied to describe this in relation to the UFO file?
That's it.
If you look at him talking about eighth sphere beings, advanced technology in the eighth sphere, a kind of virtual reality, then we start to kind of update it when you look at it.
What is he describing?
He's telling us, in fact, that there's going to be an incredible web of beings that are attached through the technology.
And so, In the deep state, they have all kinds of groups that deal on the occult side.
In fact, many of them are known to be Crowleyites.
In fact, Steiner described two types of mystery schools.
There's a right hand mystery school, which sounds very much like X Share to me.
And then there's a left hand mystery school, which sounds more like a black magic kind of thing.
That sounds a lot like X Protect.
And it's interesting because he talks about America in 1920 and he said the entire political situation.
Is ruled by various occult mystery groups and secret societies.
That's his estimation of it back then.
Over the course of a hundred years, and we hear a lot of things from Bohemian Grove and to a number of other different scenarios, what is it that they believe in, the people who are ruling the planet?
That becomes the core question.
And I think Steiner's giving us that window through this description of Ahriman, who is basically the personification of advanced technology and AI, but with a very kind of evil purpose.
And it's interesting to me that he's the same guy that, you know, when people send their kids off to Waldorf schools and they get that advanced education, that's all Steiner.
Steiner invented Waldorf schools, biodynamic farming, all these different things.
So when he comes into giving us these predictions, we basically look at it and we say, well, you know, so much predictions, I don't know if you believe in them or not.
And yet, some of us possess the ability to look into that future and see what's coming for humanity.
The difference that Rudolf Steiner makes.
That's where the mystery trail crisscrosses directly with the UFO file.
Because again, you're in the field of mystery.
So, since we're in esoteric territory here, what is astral agency, interdimensional UFO, UAP visitations and contactees?
This is fascinating.
Sami Shamans and Men in Black00:03:02
When you look at reports dealing with men in black, for example, there's always a kind of a supernatural feature that goes along with them.
There's a famous story of Dan Aykroyd who had set up, he was doing a UFO show for sci fi, which suddenly got canceled.
And he went downstairs and he recounts this whole story that he was talking to Britney Spears on the phone and he was going to book her for Saturday Night Live.
And he's looking out and there are these guys in black suits looking at him, staring at him.
And he's like, that's very strange.
Like, who are those people?
And they disappear.
Now, that's Dan Aykroyd.
It's just a celebrity story.
But I can tell you, when you backtrack that story over and over again, it comes up.
People in the very earliest cases of the UFO file, like Maury Island, report getting these visits, and that became where the whole men in black mythos came from.
But what's fascinating to me is very often their appearance looked in some fashion Asiatic.
So one of the researchers in the period, John Keel, said, I have to get to the bottom of this because he had studied all these different stories about it.
And they acted very strangely.
Very often they would do things like show up out of nowhere.
And it seemed like they had some kind of astral interdimensional ability.
So there's a supernatural factor that goes along with them.
Interestingly enough, he decided that he would get a photo of all these different groups and he would show them to people and say, what actually looks like the men in black?
So he'd show them people from Alaska.
He would show them, you know, Hawaiians.
He would show them people from the UK.
He went through all of them.
And they all stopped.
On Sami people.
And the Sami people are an indigenous group in Finland, Sweden, and they were very well known for very advanced psychic abilities.
But their appearance was over and over again what was cited.
And he said when he showed the various photographs to the people who had seen the men in black, it wasn't that 5 or 10 or 15 percent had.
Identified the Sami, he said that all of them had, unanimously.
So I went back and looked into the history of the Sami, and I found they were well known, respected, and feared in a number of ways.
And you know, there are many popular figures who are Sami.
Renee Zellweger is a Sami.
And they have a beautiful appearance and it's an amazing culture, fascinating.
But what's interesting to me when going back into their histories is they were well known and feared shamans.
So they had this incredible kind of mystical reputation.
There was a whole program to import the Sami into America in order to train reindeer.
I kid you not.
This is their whole thing.
They brought them into Alaska.
Training Psychics for Secret Technology00:07:48
The connect that I made is that the same group, That had these incredible astral abilities were used and utilized by the government for a mind control style operation because they had astral abilities.
That's what the astral agency aspect is inside of the X Protect group.
That's where you get the kind of fantastic happenings.
And a number of people involved in the Contactee style movement, when I talked about the apothegm effects that take place, you're dealing with a supernatural factor again.
So people who can astrally project.
Make a lot of sense.
Hmm.
It's a very interesting place for us to arrive at.
It's what a skill to just hone in on.
And yet, we know that the government studies remote viewing has funded it millions of dollars every year, trying to find out how to develop psychic spies.
Hmm.
But they've also tried to use psychics to do what?
Operate UFO craft.
There's a whole program involved.
So it is, and I understand the nature of the questions are so big and so out there, and yet there's very good foundation.
So for me, if you leave out the supernatural aspect, you're not going to get anywhere.
All of it, yeah.
The psychic mystery school aspect has got to be included.
Does NASA train its astronauts in the development of psychic powers or?
Like, how was Werner von Braun's ESP testing program?
Like, how did that all work?
It's really, this is really fascinating and on the record.
Here's what I found out from Russell Targ, who ran the SRI remote viewing program, and who was a physicist who developed remote viewers for the government and for the CIA before he figured out, oh, the CIA is a bad outfit to work for.
He said that in the early development of SRI, Werner von Braun, who's the father of the space program that we got from Nazi Germany, Came to him and said, Can you develop an ESP machine for me to test the psychic ability of an individual?
And Targ said, Oh, yeah, I can develop that program.
I can make a machine of images of things.
Who is it for?
And von Braun said, This is for the astronauts that we want to send into space because they're going to need psychic ability in order to be the kind of astronauts that we want to send.
So he developed the machine.
There's still a version of it.
That's available now.
And whenever we get around the space program, again, there's a mystical aspect.
There's a number of stories involving the astronauts, the moon landing, and things of that, that when they got to a certain place over the moon, they started to see their own dead relatives.
You don't hear that story too much.
No.
You know, there's a lot of wild theories about the moon, but you don't hear, well, the astronauts were seeing dead relatives.
This is very unusual.
And then von Braun, who's heading up the program, is saying, on a psychic basis, develop this psychic machine for me.
What you learn if you penetrate deep into the stories around the UFO file is that in order to activate the technology that they redevelop, they seek out and develop and train psychics for that, which is what we started with in the beginning of our interview tonight.
And for me, this is a crucial aspect that there's no operating, you know, we can talk as much as we want about technology, crash technology advances, and all the rest.
If you don't have a psychic aspect involved in the technology transfer of redeveloped craft, you can't operate it.
That's what we're finding out.
And I think the Von Braun story really illustrates that.
Yeah, it really does.
So, what is the UFO file secrecy policy of the Space Force, NASA, NRO, and commercial space corporations like SpaceX?
SpaceX, yeah.
Well, Elon Musk, you know, he's gone on the record saying UFOs aren't real.
We're here alone.
I need to bring consciousness to Mars, the light of Mars.
You know, so thanks, God.
I appreciate that.
We get a lot of that arrogance in the space programs generally.
But I will say, when it comes to commercial groups, they are under NDAs.
So there's nothing, and I mean nothing, that Musk says in relation to space that isn't sanctioned by the U.S. government.
So let's go back to the government policy.
Same policy with NASA.
They did a number of photographs of unusual artifacts on the moon and on Mars.
And there was a guy that they had who was a photo expert, and his job was to scrub.
Those artifacts from the public photos.
So they're looking at one set of photos, we're looking at another set of photos relating to the mysteries of Mars, Phobos, and others.
So when you think about it from this perspective, there's an entire program where they keep this knowledge in relation to what they're doing with the secret space program.
We here, somewhere way down here in the middle of it all, we're supposed to just accept what they have to say.
So all of those groups.
NASA on the government side and on the private commercial side, SpaceX, they're under the same rules of the government, which is don't say anything we don't say.
Thanks, Elon.
Unfortunately.
Thanks, Elon.
Can you imagine how many NASA UFO pictures that they have that we've never seen?
Think about it.
They have a 24 7 feed in outer space.
We've never seen it.
That's so wild to me.
Well, so speaking, looking ahead, With the space as the focal point of technology and commerce.
What is the future of apothem research and UFO file disclosure?
This is really the crucial thing.
And 2024 is the crucial year in relation to this.
There's no question in my mind.
The election, in fact, how much transparency is there in this election about the UFO file?
The apothem aspect that holds it back.
As we talked about earlier today, there are elements in that machine at the top of the DOD and the intelligence community.
That will even strike down on the things that I'm saying in relation to this because they're afraid of that secret leaking out.
So, the whistleblowers, the false whistleblowers they give us, and the false UFO information that they give to Congress, so that they get these naive congressmen thinking that they're going to be involved in this great gold rush of the 21st century of breakaway technology without telling them where it comes from or how it operates.
This is the nature of what we're up against.
And I think it's a battle for the future.
And I don't think the outcome is decided either way, but I can tell you this the more transparency we get, that's the only hope that we have of a good outcome, in my opinion.
The more information that's brought to bear, and there's a lot of information outside of government sources, so that disclosure doesn't actually have anything to do, in my opinion, with the government.
Forget about the government or intel agencies when it comes to UFO disclosure.
The UFO file is right where you find it in your own research.