Bruce Ross Morgan details his memoir Sapphire in the Sand, recounting his mother Yvonne De Carlo's psychic abilities and her 1946–1948 romance with Howard Hughes. Morgan describes a premonition-driven avoidance of a secret Rose Wells crash site, alleged government suppression of UFO data at Wright-Patterson, and encounters with "bipeds" in Nevada. The narrative weaves De Carlo's Latin-speaking hospital episodes with Hughes' back-engineering efforts, suggesting Hollywood's dark history involves suppressed extraterrestrial technology and profound psychological impacts on witnesses. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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A Crash and Something Interesting00:15:05
Hello, everyone.
This is Dark Journalist with a very special interview with author Bruce Ross Morgan.
Morgan is currently finishing his groundbreaking memoir, Sapphire in the Sand, about his time in Hollywood with his famous mother, the celebrated actress Yvonne DiCarlo.
Morgan reveals never before heard facts from DiCarlo's relationship with the reclusive billionaire Howard Hughes, and his own mysterious experiences with UFOs and the paranormal that seem to follow DiCarlo around.
This special exclusive interview with Morgan will shock and fascinate you with stunning details of events and people that he witnessed up close in person in the twilight world of Hollywood, aerospace billionaires, and other realities that are truly unexplained.
Bruce, it's great to have you here.
Now, a little reminder for our audience that you were featured in a segment of our X Series documentary, X Protect, The UFO File Assassins.
And that's the first, really, that the world has heard about this association with UFOs and your mom's relationship with Howard Hughes.
Now, we've talked, and I believe this book that you have coming up here, Sapphire and the Sand, which will be available later this year, is going to be of great interest to those.
Fascinated with the deeper aspects of Hollywood and the UFO file.
So let's start here with Yvonne DiCarlo.
Well, Yvonne DiCarlo, my mother, I'm Bruce Morgan, and Yvonne DiCarlo, the actress, came down from Canada and she spent a lot of time over at Paramount in the 40s, early 40s, and she was a featured club dancer for Nils Thor Granlin, which is the Florentine Gardens, and she was asked for back in New York.
So the men who were around Hollywood, including Hank Fonda, knew her.
As an it girl that was, you know, an exotic, sexy.
She would sometimes dress up with antlers on her head and do these wild dances, and she would invent these things.
And then, so she was, prior to being a star, she had captured an erotic fantasy sense in certain men.
Okay.
So by the time she hit Salome, where she danced, according to one insider, it was the biggest buildup that Universal had ever done on the star.
They were into two-reelers and adventures and things like that.
And this was a time that they said, we're going to make a star.
And they had a thing with the guy that eventually would produce Invasion of the Body Snatchers, Walter Wanger.
Without Walter Wanger, I'm not sure that there would have ever been an Yvonne DiCarlo.
So the name is real.
I don't know if she would have been a star.
Somebody has to start somewhere.
So in 45, she's known.
Hughes has put out the word to Johnny Meyer.
Yvonne has just finished a feature called Salome, Where She Danced, which is done quite well.
And they go up.
To Canada to celebrate with the hometown people, which is Yvonne and her aunt, Connie.
Right.
There's Johnny Meyer.
Oh, we just happened to run into you, and they were somehow tracking her.
You know, the press can take a few bucks and say, Well, she's here today.
You want to go over there now.
And in a club, an upstairs club, Johnny Meyer approaches and says, I want you to meet somebody.
And then Howard Hughes walks over to the table.
And the comedy is that there was not.
An immediate attraction, she thought, well, this would be a good boyfriend for my aunt.
Oh, that's great.
There was something.
She liked bullfighters and she liked guys like Sean Connery, you know, who made an absolute, you know, alpha male impression.
Right.
So they get to know each other and they start dating.
And in Hughes's world, according to my mother, he gets involved with everything.
He will go into your living room and change the furniture.
He took her out and had a whole dress designed with these giant shoulders on it that looked like, you know, the wings of a plane that she was supposed to wear.
I think she wore it twice with embarrassment and then put it away.
Yeah.
But her life was gone into.
And because of the promotion around Yvonne, it involved her cousin, Ken Ross McKenzie, who was in the Canadian RCAF.
So, with all this in mind, Hughes is not only dealing with Yvonne DiCarlo, but dealing with somebody from the Canadian Air Force who he's taking up in his plane.
He's taking Yvonne up in their plane, in his plane, personally.
And they go up to what I think was Reno, to a place called the Mapes.
It could have been Vegas, but I very much doubt that there were only two good hotels in Vegas where you could stay.
The Flamingo and Wilbur Clark's Desert Inn might have been open then.
Now, the time standard we're talking about here is somewhere between 1946, 1946, and it couldn't be later than 1949 because at that point she was involved with the Prince of Iran, Abdurraza Pahlavi, I should say, not Reza.
That was the Shah.
Abdurraza Pahlavi.
Her nickname for him was Dujang, brother of the Shah.
And she was introduced by none other than Huntington Hartford.
So it had to be before 49.
And sometimes her and Hughes would be in several places in Hollywood.
And he was always the odd guy out, but always invited because he was interesting.
Right.
On this occasion, they went up to a place and spent three solid days together.
And she told me why.
They both shared a very cruel, comic sense of humor.
They would put on the waiters and make the waiters kind of nervous by looking at the check.
And Hughes would start scowling like there was something wrong with the check.
And they'd have a good time torturing the waiters and doing things like that.
But, you know, they both had a lot of inside humor that was analytical and somewhat unkind.
They were both that way.
And they both would.
Argue and examine things right into the ground, sex, everything.
Okay.
So after three days of all things must come to an end, and he says, I want to show you something interesting on the way back.
And he started to make calls because if they were where I think they were, it would be more like the area of the 395 highway.
You have to shift over to get to the 95 to get to the area which was designated in the phone call as Rose Wells, which Is on very old maps, but nowhere now.
What he conveyed to her was that there's been a crash and there was something interesting.
And she said, Oh, sure.
And as she started packing, she started to get feelings.
And what she told me as to why she even remembered this, she said, I suddenly realized if I saw what he was going to show me, I would never get it out of my mind.
And she said, Let's go back to Hollywood.
Now, Why this story got told years later is the following.
She's sitting long past normal retirement, maybe a few more years to live, and she's watching a documentary on Bob Lazar describing his adventure on looking at the inside of a UFO.
Specifically, I think it was called the sport model.
And he stuck his head in and he described his feelings, but more than anything else, what she keyed in was when he said, what Yvonne keyed in with was, I didn't feel like I belonged there.
Right.
And she suddenly realized, she said, I believe he's telling the truth.
And it made her remember and then tell me about this event with Hughes because Yvonne and I had so few conversations directly about the real paranormal.
She liked to always talk about movies, dramas, and things that were safe.
It was only a couple of occasions where something to do with haunting occurred, and she did convey that.
But she liked to play around with it through the safety zone of drama.
But on this occasion, because of what Lazar said, she said, I remember this.
And I remember thinking, I don't want to see this.
She could already feel something about this.
And maybe, who knows, maybe she could even visualize it in her mind because the whole family on the DiCarlo side was psychic.
Interesting.
And she said, If I see this, I'll never get it out of my mind.
And she said, Let's go back to Hollywood.
Now, the only other time she said that was when I had photos of my deceased brother, who most likely was murdered.
I went and got them from the police.
And I said, Look, I think this is what happened.
And I have the photos.
She says, Don't show me those.
Because I will never get that out of my mind.
So there was consistency within this whole business of what she was remembering.
It is really interesting that she seemed to have this innate feeling that if she were to witness the things at the crash site, it would change her forever.
There's a lot of other reasons why I want to signpost this story.
I did some time talking to people who were personnel hiring people over at Hughes that I met by accident.
And If you bring up the subject in the right way about foreign materials, they'll talk to you.
No problem.
They'll talk to you because they know that you understand how to talk about things in a discreet way.
So, for example, UFOs then being referred to as foreign materials.
Correct.
Because you say, not from the neighborhood, not ours is fine.
Foreign materials, which is, by the way, it was a classification at Wright Patterson for a while.
They use other ones too, but Wright Patterson, the lingo.
Was foreign materials for testing.
That's pretty interesting.
And so she immediately warmed up instead of pulled away.
And she said, Yeah, we have a problem.
We have a crisis with certain scientists that are asked to come in and consider this stuff for back engineering.
And we did say the word back engineering.
And I said, Well, what is that crisis?
She said, Well, the people that are stuck within their system of their knowledge, their education, they go into an emotional crisis because it means that all their training is for naught.
In the case of whatever this is that's working, you know, it's usually something that's actually working and functioning.
Right.
And she said, but the ones that have, she called it a dichotomous mind, somebody that can cut things up, dichotomous, chop up, put it on a table, but don't try to fit it into a belief system.
Those people can work with the situation.
And those are the people that have success in figuring things out and back engineering.
Exactly.
Bob Bazaar does strike me as one of those people.
So I'm not a proponent or an antagonist of his.
I just think that there's been times when he's described lucidly whatever it is he's got to say, and it figures.
So the thing is, the memory was triggered by a documentary that Yvonne was watching.
Then she related the time with Hughes, and they went up and spent a lot of time together because they both analyzed things into the ground.
He felt some kind of kinship with her.
To share this with her.
He then later on went flying with my cousin, Ken Ross McKenzie, when they were up at altitude flying around, which Yvonne denies, by the way.
Yvonne doesn't like to get upstaged.
And when Ken, sitting in an attic in Birmingham, tells me that he used to fly with Howard Hughes, I believe him because Howard Hughes got involved with all aspects of Ken's life for a while.
He got Ken out of jail through Johnny Meyer.
Ken Ross McKenzie took a bus trip with what he thought was just a sidekick, turned out to be a mafia guy.
And the cops dragged poor Ken into jail, and Johnny Meyer showed up in Van Nuys to get Ken Ross McKenzie out of jail.
Well, that means that Howard Hughes had some kind of kinship with Ken because Ken was not after money.
He wasn't trying to climb down your throat to make him a star.
And he had the kind of stuff that would have been proper for the mystery schools.
He considered Conan Doyle, Carlyle, all this reading.
He believed in love.
Heard and knowledge, he told me when I was 12 years old and I was leaving London after studying Roman antiquities because I was a little Roman fiend scholar when I was in England.
But Ken Ross McKenzie took flights with Howard Hughes.
And during that time, there was very little looking out of the window at night, as most pilots will tell you.
But what did come through sometimes, like big flashing beacons and the speed of them, as Hughes related, he said, I'm an aircraft designer.
I don't know where this stuff is from, but I sometimes get envious because we're working on things as hard as we can.
Whoever the hell is up here using this is way ahead of me.
And he didn't want to go in too far, like outer space or anything.
But when they were alone in that plane, the conversations got very personal about why Hughes was interested in these strange crafts.
He said, I'm a designer and I want to know.
And this was something that repelled.
Captain Repelt talked about why he took the Blue Book file.
He was nothing more than a tail gunner, I believe, from the Pacific, transferred through a point in the Air Force where you could make a job choice.
And he said, Oh, these things, UFOs?
And he wanted to go design things at Lockheed.
Fascinating.
Repelt wasn't into anything lugubrious and, you know, like wanting to do strange tales when he quit.
He wanted to know about design.
And he figured, Well, this has got to be the cutting edge.
If these things are going that fast.
So, Rapel's own testimony about why he got in, it matched Hughes.
And Hughes talked about this stuff and then wanted to show Yvonne something, which scared the willies out of her to say, let's go back to Hollywood.
UFOs at Lockheed Design00:15:24
So, I hope I've drawn a pretty good configuration of the circle.
And then we can go further into Mercury, Indian Springs, Lathrop Wells, possibly Rose Wells.
And all this stuff along the 95 highway with the funeral mountains, Beatty, anything you want to talk about in there that was covered by radar and a thing called the magnetic anomaly detection system, which JFK even visited before his assassination.
Absolutely.
And it's interesting that you mentioned JFK there because when he was planning to visit this base in Mercury, they said, well, we can't accommodate Air Force One.
And he said, well, I'm coming in and you're going to have to build.
An airport for it.
That's interesting.
I'll send you the photos.
They came in by helicopter, and Seaborg is in the car with him.
And they might have done exactly what you said, but they did it from a long way off because when they went down the final area, probably the helos are the security personnel.
But they're coming in on an open sedan, it was a convertible.
And Seaborg is right next to JFK.
And Seaborg stayed with JFK like epoxy glue.
And there are photos inside where JFK is showing what we've already heard about from him.
Did you hear the myth story about him speed reading?
Yes.
Did you ever hear about that?
Yes.
He is literally going through a giant book that's prepared on the nuclear powered rockets.
And I said, my God, it's true.
He's turning the pages and he is reading.
And the guy was just amazing.
But he was looking at all this stuff, and right over his head, he emerges from a door and it says MAD, M A D.
Now, we're used to hearing mutual assured destruction.
No, no.
That was Magnetic Anomaly Detection Center.
What are they detecting?
They're not only at a facility that's testing rockets, in my opinion, they're in a facility that's monastering incoming unknowns, meaning UFOs.
Absolutely.
And the ostensible reason for that trip was those nuclear rockets.
However, they never wound up using.
Those rockets.
So, yeah, terrible, terrible amount of isotopes coming out of the rear end of those things, but very toxic.
That was one story.
And it's interesting this idea that, oh, I'm going to look at some advanced technology, and it's nuclear rockets, but the actual advanced technology he went there to look at was probably something else.
Probably right, because he was asked several times about the UFOs, and he did not oppose the question.
And as you know, with Project Bluefly, They were monitoring his conversations with Marilyn Monroe.
And I think he got a little too open about the stuff.
Yes.
And the rest is something that you've covered very well about JFK's willingness to be open, was masked by another gentleman who was at one time the Secretary of the Navy, Forrestal.
James Forrestal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
According to many secretaries, including one named June, Who's no longer with us?
There were two factions, and described by Repelt, too, Captain Repelt, in the report on unidentified flying objects.
There were two factions at Wright Patterson, and one faction wanted this open to the public, and the other did not.
And of course, we know who won, but the Navy did something separate that was fascinating.
They would go into Fate magazine, and they had an admiral in 1951 describe without hesitation.
The UFOs that came in while his rockets were in apogee, which means going from perigee, apogee.
They were arcing, going through, then ready to come down again.
Right.
And these UFOs would play around up there and, you know, screw around with his rocket.
And he got into the whole thing.
He got into what was inside something that could, what kind of occupants could have lasted, what kind of density to the bodies that take those kind of G's.
This is all in Faint Magazine.
I think the Navy did the most brilliant thing and saved themselves a lot of.
Trouble.
They didn't end up looking like bad guys.
They didn't have to spend as much money.
They had everything in plain sight.
And they took an interview, now did that.
Admiral get canned because that was an admiral assigned to rocket projects in White Sands.
Yes.
And they had a battle in White Sands.
The Germans, they love how reliable they are for what they're going to do.
They're doing what?
They're bothering our rockets.
Shoot them down.
And so these F 86 and F J. Which are like navalized 86s with cannons, right?
Cannons fire big slugs that don't go anywhere else.
They're not smart weapons.
These cannons were very successful at bringing down several UFOs and, of course, killing the occupants.
And according to June, who heard the story from White Sands, there was a protest in the air.
These goddamn UFOs came right over the dunes where the crash happened.
And they said, Well, what did it look like?
And she said, According to the reports I have, they were as thick as flies.
It was like a convention.
Amazing.
And they were saying, To hell with you, you.
You killed one of our guys, and then they took reprisals.
They took reprisals.
They had a famous story on a Sergeant Lovett that meant a very horrible death, and it was like, we're going to get some of yours.
Fascinating.
Now, I have heard stories of these types of air battles, and it really makes you wonder about the changes in the shoot down policies over the years and what that entails.
Now, what period of reporting is this from?
And this was all in supposedly one of the very famous grudge reports, 13, I think it was called, volume 13.
And so, you know, you can divine what you want to make of this, but Dale Fry wrote a book all about events out at White Sands.
I've talked to people personally that were out there.
And yes, you know, that the whole, nobody gets this right except for Lorenzen.
There was a very famous, UFO research groups started by engineers that were on the base of White Sands because they were going through hell.
They were, according to Coral Lorentzen, the engineers were losing time just going to the market and coming back.
Wow.
And they had sunburns on one side of their face and weird stuff like that was going on.
So they went to the base commander and said, Look, we want to start internally an investigation unit to find out what's happening to us.
And the commander okayed it.
And that's where very famous at the time and very contentious.
It was a research group run by the Lorenzans that started at, and it had a famous name to it.
Is it APRO?
APRO.
Aerial Phenomena Research Organization.
Fantastic, yes.
She had a periodical.
A lot of these things I collect and get, and because I got into this in the 73, 75 period when I became a science student.
And this is like the Donald Kehoe wing of research, right?
Yeah.
I believe that the government didn't have everything stitched up properly, that a lot of information did get out.
That's the key.
Absolutely.
And often the question is are there still people living from that period who could give us that kind of deeper info now?
You know, we've covered strange places on this program like Mercury, Nevada, and Moon, Pennsylvania, with their deep aerospace and UFO file connections.
Some of the more mystical places you've mentioned, like Paradise Springs in California, can you tell us about that?
I won't go there anymore because we got surrounded by beings up in a forest.
And it put the concerns about, you know, things like people disappearing in that same area.
They lost 12 government agents in Big Rock Creek.
And that was a very interesting area because not more than 23 miles as the crow flies is Mount Wilson, which was a big observatory at one time before they had them better situated.
Right.
And we had non commissioned officers with us when we were surrounded by these beings that were transparent.
Very tall.
And I think the message was you better get out of here.
And other people, according to many reports of Indian police that retired in that area, some of the encounters with people that had really staked a claim there and lived there, the reports of encounters were really dangerous and hair raising with these creatures during the day.
I call them bipeds.
Other people say Bigfoot.
But to this day, it is a fact that Edwards Air Force Base personnel running parameter security are briefed on the Bigfoots.
And that is from a retired non commissioned officer that's now in entertainment security, but he was an officer on Edwards.
Fascinating.
Yeah, you look in that area, you look at radar and everything, and you put it together with Nevada and all the projects in Indian Springs.
I talked to a supervisor that echoed the issue that, look, if your deportment on these projects is non excitable, you stay on.
But if you are showing that you're not handling it, we get you out of here.
Because we can't afford that.
So they have something going on over at Indian Springs also, which is now retitled Creech, I believe.
And that's very close to Mercury.
Interesting.
Yeah.
These officers who are around those beings, what do they think that they are?
Well, they ran into them off duty as just civilian type personnel.
They just happened to have achieved a commission.
And one of them went over to Spain.
To finish off his commission, but he was also up in Vandenberg where they had problems.
What did they think they were?
I can zero in on one person that was a personal friend for years, still is.
He only had a guess that some of the Indian people that he spoke to, like the Indian police, talked to the Indian people and they called them the old ones, meaning they were here before us.
And the problem with that is that lights would appear before they showed up, disembodied lights would follow your car.
Is that a UFO or is it something interdimensional?
Is it spiritual?
You have more questions than answers, but the legacy I took out of this was this.
I learned that before it happened, whatever I was going to see, something in my body and mind got me ready for it.
And I realized, oh, me and maybe a lot of other people have a precognition that prepares you for the event.
Like behind this outhouse, if you just step to the side, Right six feet, there's going to be this thing there staring at you.
And sure enough, there was.
And it was diaphanous or semi transparent.
It was swaying kind of like in a simian sway.
It was in a track starter position.
And it was looking at me.
And I said, I better not raise the camera to my eye because it will take this as a threat.
And then I looked down the road and looked at the other people in a semicircle, including the Air Force guy with Peter Gatilla.
And Coming down the hill was a larger one, 18 feet tall, that was standing over this semicircle of standing seance people.
And I thought, God, I wish somebody could see this with me.
So I go up to my friend Willie, the Air Force guy, and I say, Willie, come on, come back and see this with me.
And he's in a daze.
And they're all in this soft, kind of sephoric daze.
And I wasn't.
When I go up there, I was attenuated like a dog on point and really.
Watching.
Now, a lot of people entering those zones where these creatures are operating, they get sleepy and non purposeful in their motions, and I believe that's a result of these things being up there trying to create a buffer zone.
Right.
And some people, it doesn't work.
They're highly attenuated, they get hyper vigilant, if you will.
So, there's a whole issue of what's going on up there before our time.
The Indians say that there's a valley nearby called the Valley of Lost Children, which means very dangerous for human beings at times.
There seems to be a boundary zone, a politeness boundary zone, where you get close and you get feelings like, I better leave.
The trees will move.
If you track with your eye, the trees, as old as something large is entertaining you, they'll move the trees around you as you move your head or your camera.
Like, oh, you want to do that?
Here, I'll make the trees move for you.
But there's no wind.
Yeah, this is crazy stuff.
Absolutely.
But you've witnessed it yourself.
So, how do you size up this side of your experiences, you know, the UFO, paranormal, interdimensional creature side of things?
We have miles to go in perception.
As a lifeguard, I learned that I could feel that there was going to be a rescue.
After 30 years and 500 rescues, I was lucky enough.
To retire without a single drowning.
Wow.
I do believe that some of that was operating, that the psychic ability was operating.
That's amazing.
I was introduced to it in a shocking way up in Big Rock Creek.
So that was the legacy.
If it's just a lugubrious, scary story, it really, to me, it's not that much worth telling except stay out of that area because we're losing people up there now.
And myself and an Air Force officer retired, we're both in anxiety about it because.
You can only talk to one person at a time about that, or you get laughed out of the room.
Yeah.
The Psychic Walking Database00:05:26
And the Rangers who know about it, they won't talk about it because they want to lose their jobs.
Right.
But that incident, what year did that take place?
Okay, the incident that I had that's in the book that I sent you the printed pages from was 1975, and the publication was 1976, and that was Barbara Ann Slate, who knew Stanton Freeman.
Her library was second only to the extensive library of Ivan Sanderson, who, in addition to being a zoologist of record, was also a British intelligence officer.
Right.
Ivan, in 73, at the time when my friend's truck was chased, was dying of brain cancer that he somehow got suddenly.
And he had been hoodwinked into thinking that there was a real.
Bigfoot, and then they switched it when he got in there.
They made a fool out of him, but not really, because Ivan Sanderson was involved with the Flatwoods monster.
And he ran into things that he documented that David Politis walked into, which is that after a sighting where disappearances or assaults on humans occur, there tends to be a giant rainstorm as if after that, as if some tracks are being covered.
So, but the library of these people.
Was huge.
More than whatever we've seen, they knew far more about.
And Ivan had like three garages full of discarded classified documents.
And one day, from afar, so that he wouldn't get shot, he or one of his friends watched as somebody broke in and took all the stuff that he had.
Oh, wow.
Because, I mean, you know, there's only so much time in a life.
You probably have some of the, you've probably known people that have a library and they're only going to get to maybe 1 16th of what they have in there.
Yes.
Oh, yeah.
Well, Bobra Slate, who was the direct research director, so to speak, and said, Here's five bucks.
Go up to Big Rock and get in trouble because I don't want to.
What she didn't know was that I was carrying tape recording equipment and film from the very start.
And everything that we documented up there is something that Stan Gordon of Pennsylvania, who you may have heard of him.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
UFO researcher.
Well, all right.
And he has done a similar thing to Colitis, which is that.
He sticks to the report.
He does not go into florid speculation.
And as a result, he becomes a very important database, a walking database for this stuff.
His camera footage, according to him, resulted in what we had.
We had like a bouncing ball, luminous ball on the film, instead of the thing that was out in front of the car that looked like a biped, semi transparent and waving its arms like, get out, but at such a high speed that if you and I were to try to wave our arms, Our arms would at least become dislocated.
So, all that stuff was collected.
So, for me, I knew something was there and that I wasn't crazy.
So, then the next step is okay, what is it?
And then there's a third step is it, what is it in your life?
And what it became in my life is that everything that you're studying, Daniel, on your show with the mysteries school and the depth of perception and being and the advancement of your spirit is very real.
Very important because that's what you really want to get to.
The bipeds are not going to stop and show you their driver's license.
Right.
They're not going to tell you who they are.
In fact, they're very key on things like you not knowing their name or too much about them.
And when they do communicate through dreams, which I believe they have, there's an element of deception, which I will get into on another time.
But what's most important is that you.
Have now learned something about yourself.
Oh, well, so I knew I was going to see something before I saw it.
That's interesting.
How far can I take this?
Then you start reading and talking to other psychics in a harmonious environment where you don't have to climb uphill and being called a bullshit artist all the time.
And you start to advance yourself.
And then think about somebody that finally applies this to lifeguarding.
And then I talked to an officer that came from a spiritual background and I said, Do you see rescues before they happened?
And he said, yes, but don't tell anybody.
We talked about it.
What is said of that officer by other lifeguards that were spooked by him, especially, they said, he appears to make no mistakes.
He's always there when it's ready to happen.
And he ended his career with a zero drowning record.
And I did too.
And it's there.
And the wonderful thing is, it's there for now.
I'm going to sound like I'm preaching.
It's there for all of us.
Sacred Sites and Rose Wells00:06:27
And it's this thing where.
The kit that's most important is your mind and your perceptions.
There 247, and I think most people will not regard it because when you advance it, you run into a thing called responsibility.
You become responsible for knowing what's right and what's wrong and what you must do.
And a lot of people don't want to go there.
So I'm sorry I got into that.
No, no, it's fascinating.
I think that part is very interesting.
It is the consciousness interconnection with this, it is the part that.
Makes a lot more sense beyond just chasing the technology, which we know has limits, or chasing the physical reality around it.
I want to jump back to one thing that you said about this area going back to where Howard Hughes was, and that it was an area called Rose Wells, and then it used to show up on maps, and then they took it out.
The similarity to the name Roswell always grabs me on that one, too.
How did you discover this Rose Wells got taken out?
I had many maps.
The one that I showed you, that I sent to you through a platform, was the oldest.
That goes back to like 1911, you know, really old.
Right.
Then it disappears, and what you get around it is the area of Pahrump, where Ard Bell was.
That's on, by the way, the location so that people know well, where is this?
You're north of Indian Springs, you're south of Mercury, and you're on the 95, and you're looking off to your left if you're going north, which means it's on the west side of the highway.
And it's not that far off, but it has disappeared as a stated place on the map.
Now, this happened to other places.
For instance, nowadays when you go by Mercury and look at a map, it just says Mercury.
In the 1959 to 56, whatever, Auto Club maps, it says Camp Desert Rock, which was the residential tent settlement for the personnel that were going to shepherd people in and out of the blast sites and set up what they called,
well, they called it News Hill, where all the cameras were waiting, you know, near Frenchman Flat to take a picture of the blast when we had surface testing.
Which started with Project Blast Test Ranger, I think, was the first.
And of course, we had others.
We had Bikini Atoll, where really strange things happened that were reported by people who were engineers.
They said that in the middle of the blast, for a very short period of time, a cloud opened up and dark space with stars could be seen.
Interesting.
I mean, stuff that I note, I don't buy it completely, but I say, catalog this.
This is what I mean by the dichotomous mind.
You don't eject or accept anything.
You put it on the table and you leave it there without attaching a belief system.
And this is the people that Hughes personnel wanted for back engineering.
Amazing.
So, about Mercury, though, in addition to the MAD sites that we talked about with JFK, there was an archaeological site inside of the Mercury area, which had something circular that was considered very ancient and.
They weren't describing it as a settlement.
It was like some kind of a sacred site.
Almost like a Stonehenge there in the desert.
Right.
And it was called the Mercury Project.
And I cannot find it now.
Luckily, somewhere on a floppy disk it lives because I don't ever go by these things and not take them down.
I always take down everything.
And they had an aerial view of this, and it was a funded project because as they were blowing things up, they were also running into things too in that area.
They blew giant holes in the ground up that area, and they had time to wonder about what was going on.
There were also maps of the Mercury test range and the area around there, Frenchman Flat.
They have Pilots Peak and things like that.
They had a thing, designations like sheds.
And this was obviously from an old settlement time when there were sheep ranchers up there.
And if you go to the west of the highway, you have the funeral mountains.
And then if you go further, there's an archaeologist that I spoke to in Virginia City about the name of a certain valley called the Armagosa.
And somebody, Just shot off a guest one night and said, I think it means suffering.
And she said, the archaeologist up in Virginia City said, No, we haven't ever been able to translate what that means.
Just as the petroglyphs in the area, which are all over the Valley of Fire and all those areas up there, they've not been fully explained.
And some of them would give Von Donikin a field day with large round heads.
And elongated bodies, things like that, you know, things that would be a field day for the conjectures of Eric Van Dynekin.
Wow, incredible.
You had mentioned in this relation two things that I found interesting.
One of them was about this missing time incident that you had while driving with Yvonne.
Can you go back into that and tell me about some of that?
Yeah, in 1967, we had finished watching Bonnie and Clyde, and that's just a.
A signposting memory of having a Life magazine in which there was an article about the real Bonnie and Clyde.
I took that out there for reading.
I was 11 years old at the time.
It was fall of 67.
Bonnie and Clyde Memories00:15:40
And she and I would leave the family and leave Hollywood and go out in the middle of nowhere just to settle her nerves and get away from everything.
So there was no search for anything weird.
We were just trying to get away from it all.
And I would often wonder why she would do this.
And she once told me about Bishop.
She said, Well, it's because it reminds me of Canada when you're up in the pines, but that's not Death Valley.
Sometimes it was because it was a place where an old romance had occurred, and she wanted to remember happier times.
So there were definite reasons why she went out there that she didn't share with her son.
So we're on the road.
Night has fallen, and it's already dark, so you can't differentiate by the opacity of the sky what hour you're at.
So we're already in darkness.
This particular place, which I assume was southeast of our location of Furnace Creek Inn, was a highway straight, very straight, small hill formations off about, I don't know, four miles to my right, and to my left, larger hill formations way off, miles off.
And we had a fairly flat advance plane.
Leading to where she was going to check in and have dinner with me.
Suddenly, I have my head on the side glass of the passenger side.
And I jolt my head away because I see vividly something in my mind's eye, not out in front of the vehicle, but in my mind's eye, I see everything that's out in front of the vehicle and the whole perspective, but from a bigger perspective somehow.
And something giant moves out of the darkness toward our vehicle.
It looks like a giant robot.
The closest thing I can liken it to, if you've ever seen the Hopi Kachinas, we're talking something 200 feet in height, and one stride, it clears tremendous distance between where it was in the darkness toward our car.
And I thought, oh, my imagination, but what an imagination, because Yvonne had trained me to think that way.
She was trying to keep me away from.
Getting too seriously involved with looking too deeply, it made her very, very nervous.
Anything that was real.
She loved the dramaturgy stuff and the fiction, but she was very much against an open discussion because what are you going to do then?
She didn't like it.
So, anyway, we got to Furnace Creek Inn after this slight incident of what I thought was imagination, and we realized that it was much later than we expected, and they had to reopen.
The restaurant and Yvonne was never off on time.
We had timed it to get there to be in a comfortable position to have dinner.
They had to reopen the dining room for a movie star and they had to accommodate us, and we're sitting there.
I'm like, Mom, what the?
And she said, Shut up, don't say anything.
And she said, I want to talk about it.
And that's one that I had to figure out.
And then years later, in a NICAB file, a young man is following up.
And there's a flash of a camera near a lake, and there's a robot like figure following him that is fairly transparent.
And I said, Well, I don't know about the veracity of this, but it describes a little bit like what I saw this robot type thing coming out of the darkness.
And so I said, Well, at least there could be a corollary elsewhere.
Then in another MUFON file, there was a story about a man who was.
If you will, up a tree all night with robot like figures down below trying to get at him.
Yes.
And zapping him, supposedly.
And he sort of throws something down at them.
Yeah, that's a very strange case.
The Cisco Grove, that's where the robot chases him.
He goes up the tree, and then they send up a gas to knock him out.
Really disturbing and just bizarre in general.
It's 1964.
This thing was, I'm telling you, Daniel, though, this thing on the highway, if it was just whether imagination or reason for time shift, this was huge.
And we did lose time.
We did lose time because we were chagrined.
And I know Yvonne, she's very much a field marshal regarding getting somewhere and doing things on time.
We didn't have any cell phones back then.
When you were in 1967 on the highway, man, your car better work perfectly.
So.
So, she was very determined to get there with her kid and have dinner.
That's really an unusual incident.
Now, the rapport that you had with her on these trips and just in general, how would you describe that?
I was drafted into talking like an adult.
I talked her out of suicide when I was like six years old.
Wow.
So I became a full on fire brigade parent to my parents when I was very young.
And I was invited into crowds.
I was talking to Norman Jewison, who did.
The heat of the night and the Russians are coming.
And talking to him in detail about comedy played at a distance with a camera way off at a distance when the drunk is trying to catch the horse.
And I said, that scene would never have been funny if you had gone up in close up.
And Norman Jusson's laughing because, you know, I was like, some part of me had skipped childhood and I was relating to adults because of the parties I was going to.
Right.
Oh, that's fascinating.
It is.
And I think that the incident with the missing time is unusual in the fact that she didn't want to speak about it.
And she sort of said, don't, let's not talk about it.
Some things you don't want to talk about.
Yeah, she had a boundary line that seldom was crossed.
Her way of checking it out, if you will, the psychic world, didn't her mention, was to yell at me and say, Bruce, come on, let's watch out our limits.
Come on, let's watch.
And she would look at it avidly.
She loved it.
And she would read Agatha Christie.
She was one of the first people I knew to read Philip K. Deck.
And the first book that I saw down there of hers was Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
And so she was into all the speculative stuff, as fiction, as drama.
But on seldom, on only two occasions, did she want to talk about psychic things.
She definitely talked about a precursor dream to Michael's divorce.
We both had a similar dream of a divorce.
And she agreed with me that she'd had a dream.
So we were both psychic.
The family on the DiCarlo side was psychic.
The kids would put their ear to the ground in Nice, France, and predict earthquakes.
And they were kicked out of towns.
Later on, Yvonne's mother would predict the long shot horses in a racetrack for the mafia, the local mafia.
And they basically kidnapped her for a while and made her talk about, you know, come on, tell us more about the horses.
Incredible.
And she said, I don't want to do this anymore.
And.
Yvonne was negatively psychic and openly talked to me about it.
And I said, okay, well, that's the station you're tuned to, but you could be for the positive.
And she hated to be lectured.
So she said, all right, teacher, I'm at the blackboard.
You want to tell me something else?
And I said, all right, I'm not going to tell you anything.
Just do it your way.
And she could tell that something bad was going to happen.
That is very interesting that she had this ability.
Now, what's a good example of her using her psychic mind to pick up on something negative?
Yeah, and she did have this boundary, which is, I think, what your topic question was.
She did not want to go often into the discussion, the long term discussion of real events.
One time only, she was in South America, very depressed, and she was alone in the room, but she knew something had sat down on the bed with her.
And one thing I didn't tell you from the previous discussion is that when I tell you something or you tell me something, we start to form a picture involuntarily.
I immediately knew that what was there to comfort her was her deceased grandmother.
It's just going to be all right because her husband had proven to be an enemy, abandoned her.
She was sick.
He was making, pushing her into performing when she was sick.
He was going out to the golf course every day with the local South American mob that was arranging everything.
And in order to get his amenities and his golf course time, she had to perform.
And if that fell apart, he would be embarrassed.
And him being embarrassed was worth more than the welfare of his wife.
And I always, always, Looked askance at him for that behavior.
And I saw them, well, both of them, as friends.
That's what saved the relationship.
So I had to cast them in the good housekeeping seal of mother and father.
I would have been very bitter about both of them.
But I decided long ago when I was a kid that these were acquaintances of mine and friends.
And Yvonne just turned out to be a fantastic human being, that in her heart of hearts, she was a good person, but she had a terribly rough exterior and she could.
Turn people off like nobody's business.
And many famous directors tried to cure her of that problem and it didn't work.
Right.
It's interesting the different qualities that she had.
She's a very complex figure.
Yeah, she was able to play, I think her best performance was when she did an impression of Maria Montez in Captain's Paradise.
She was playing opposite one of the best actors ever, Alec Guinness.
She had requested Alec Guinness, and he had a contract requirement, which was the other reason he took the film.
But after, at Captain's Paradise, he went from being an art house star to a main box office star because of that film.
So she didn't just have a psychic ability for herself, she had some kind of an ability to know what would work.
Fascinating.
They were going to get her old boyfriend, Ray Meland, to play the captain in Captain's Paradise.
And I think the film would have been a drab.
I think that Guinness had a paranoid, masochistic fragility about him that was wonderful to watch as he tried to negotiate between his exotic lover and his rather staid British wife living in Gibraltar.
And it was all about a man that really wasn't suited to live a double life, but he was going to try it anyway.
It's like if Casper Milkos or Alfred Prufrock tried to become one of the Musketeers, it's not likely, but it would be very funny.
Absolutely.
You're doing a memoir now about your whole life and.
Went with my mom, yes, called Sapphire in the Sand.
And I can tell you this is worth it for anybody to do a memoir with a timeline because you're going to find out cause and effect to why things happen.
And we all think we remember, but when you start analyzing this in a diary or a memoir, You're going to finally put things to rest about why things happened.
Right.
Right.
Absolutely.
How does that Hollywood environment growing up around it make an impact on you?
Well, I had an eccentric interest in history, especially the Roman Empire, which I acquainted with you in our last discussion.
And because I was immersed in studying the Romans and believed that I had some kind of a With that.
He's kind of protected me against the comparisons in Hollywood.
And I have a big joke about anybody who said, Isn't it hard to have a famous mom?
And I said, No, I never had, as a young man, I never had an aspiration to grow up and be an actress.
So I just said, You know, it doesn't fit.
And having finally rescued 500 people as a lifeguard and gone through all the things that I went through there, because I was a kid pegged for death at two years old through asthma, and the fact that I survived that.
Went on to become a distance swimmer and did all that stuff.
That's good enough.
My identity never suffered from being around Hollywood.
I found it interesting.
And my godfather, DeMille, I got to hear his story through his associate, Henry Wilcox.
And DeMille and Lasky came to the town when it was nothing.
And they literally, along with Max Sennett and a few other people, they made Hollywood what it was.
They had a place called the OKH Ranch.
The DeMille Barn is nothing more than the remnant of what was at the OKH Ranch, where they made movies without tax free, no impediments.
And old Hollywood and its development interest me.
And there was a lot of politics, of course.
It's not like now, though.
It's changed, it's transformed now into something I don't recognize.
And there was a problem after a certain time.
When television came in, the movie industry, which was right up there with U.S. steel before television and after World War II, it lost a large measure of its audience.
And it started to have to go do these private offerings, public offerings that it never had to do.
One of the last stories I was told in 1987 that signaled a change in the structure of Hollywood was when a writer at a major studio told me that drug money.
Was being laundered through a French bank in order to finance part of this particular studio, a very famous one, by the way, which I'll tell you in another conversation.
Hollywood's Drug Money Secrets00:05:49
Absolutely.
We can talk about that off the record, and I would love to hear all about it.
Now, I want to ask you as we close part one here what can people expect from your memoir about this time with your mom, Yvonne DiCarlo, Sapphire in the Sand?
They can expect more than anything else the formation of a relationship between mother and son that has to do with spiritual as well as interdimensional things.
And yes, there's Hollywood in there, but because those two things intermix, I'm publishing a very affordable rundown on just the showbiz stuff.
Okay.
I don't want people to pick up the book and throw it across the room because I thought I was reading what one reader would say.
A Hollywood saga.
And instead, I'm getting all this psychic stuff.
So I'm going to be very clear about that in the adverts about this.
What they can expect to see is a very psychic family, basically, and how they progressed.
And especially on the mother to son.
And their maturation was not mother to son, but friends, two friends was what we became.
She asked me at the end because she knew she'd been falling short.
On many things.
And she said, Why do you treat me so well?
Because she really hadn't been in the station of mother properly all the time.
And I said, Look, you're my friend.
And she was stunned by that.
But I think she accepted it.
We had become friends.
Now, something strange happened that underlines what they can expect out of this.
And this is a ghost story.
The nurses called me.
They said, Bruce, we've got to talk to you, but they had to go to a private room.
We can't call you from the main desk here at the hospital.
And I said, Well, what happened?
She said, Well, we waited till after you did the eulogy.
We heard Yvonne calling from the room after she died.
Wow.
And her room was F219 at the motion picture home.
And I said, I believe you.
And they said, When you did the eulogy, it stopped.
So if anybody thinks that these ceremonies for the deceased are useless, they better think again.
That's fascinating.
Now, in the year that she passed, I woke up on my birthday and I was awake.
Somebody was in my arms and it was on my birthday and I knew it was her.
She had been allowed, and I repeat, allowed to come and do this.
And I said, This person's in a full embrace, and you could tell she had her head on my shoulders and it was a full body embrace, something that she had not even ever done in life, which means some kind of appreciation of everything that had happened.
Because I really did come to her rescue when she thought I was going to be yet another guy abandoning her.
And so, what she found out in the end was that after startup, she was still loved.
And that's important, too.
It sounds a little bit like a Hallmark greeting card ending, but it's true.
She, as a very normal person, found out that she was still loved, even after all of the cheering stopped, if you will.
So, that was an important part of it, too.
This person got closure to, you know, that she wasn't judged and wasn't unloved.
And she had this problem all her life because her father had left when she was three years old.
And that has a big problem for anybody, you know, the mother leaves the son or something, it stays with the person all their life.
And so this was one person that stuck with her right to the end.
And I consider that as much of an achievement as the 500 rescues I made.
So.
They're going to hear a story about really what I think to be simple people in a complex environment with a bit of psychic talent.
And they may relate to that, they may not.
But I think some of the things along the way were fascinating.
I mean, she was like a scientist when she met people.
She could stand back and observe, and she said, I met this one burgermeister that took me down a long hallway to a dark closet.
And she said, Oh my God, what the hell's going on here?
Because it's right after World War II, and she doesn't know what this guy's going to show her.
He opens up the closet with a giant portrait of this woman from centuries past.
And he didn't introduce her to the painting like, I'm in love with the painting.
The mayor of the town said, I'm in love with this woman as if she was still alive.
So she got introduced to.
All these different crazy, interesting, uh, human experiences.
And she reported them like a good reporter.
She didn't add too much to it, but she was fascinated with all these different people.
So, Yvonne had a fascinating life.
And that's also the reason.
That's what they can expect.
They can expect also some anecdotes that are within themselves pretty interesting.
Absolutely fascinating.
In light of that, how did you get into the UFO subject?
Direct Observation Confirmed00:05:28
I had events in my house which was haunted, and I suspected.
That far more was going on than what Yvonne told me was my imagination.
What was wonderful is that I did not try to document it while I was still there because then, if you absolutely confirmed that you were going to sleep every night at a haunted house, I think I'd be crawling the ceiling and never get any sleep.
So I was very lucky that I waited to confirm until 75.
And that's when something came back from 125 miles away.
Paralyzed me looking through my window.
And how I got involved was direct observation, is the answer.
Something that Major Dewey Fournette was told by visitors.
They said, What is it that you desire beyond all things?
And they said, standing at a window in what appeared to be an abandoned money making facility outside of Washington, they said, We desire beyond all things direct observation, which means.
We don't want to be told who you are.
We want to figure that out ourselves.
And what happened at the house is that I would lie on a bed in the daytime and it was like the thoughts were being sped up and rewound.
I said, What's happening to me?
And who's doing that?
And I never forgot it.
And I asked questions.
I would look to one side of me once when awake in the morning and I would see a surgery going on.
I would look to the left and there was a writing.
Course with English saddle riders.
And I said, What's this?
And I said, It can't just be imagination.
There's got to be something to do with dimensions here.
So all the questions were laid out.
So my direct observation of strange dreams I had a dream of putting tumbleweeds as a Roman tribune around my troops.
We were outnumbered, and whatever was approaching us probably was in Judea.
And this was called.
The Rose of Jericho.
It was a tumbleweed, if you can believe that.
And it was easy to burn.
And so I said, Get this out in front of us.
And it's not only stopped the rebels in their tracks, but it then lit fire to the rest of the brush.
And we reversed the battle, but we needed the wind on our side.
This is a dream going on when I'm seven years old.
So I got involved with extremely detailed dreams.
And just like they said with this woman who was hiring at Hughes, the dichotomous mind, I never questioned it.
I chronicled it.
I knew it wasn't resolved.
I didn't have to put it into a belief system.
I didn't ask Christ to say, oh, please forgive me for the sin of my decorous dreams.
I didn't have to do that.
And as a result, I was able to catalog all this stuff until the big question comes, like, you know, let's find out where this fits.
And where it fit finally is, We have amazing minds that can perceive so much.
We've seldom been able to use it.
I think Mark Bell had an event where he got a bunch of people together to synchronize over the weather.
And it actually, something happened and he got scared to death.
Right, yeah.
And so, and he, this was the best part of the Art Bell world.
Other dreams, other things he had on, I could tell that he was a showman and that there might have been somebody behind the curtain that was an actor, but when he had Ingo Swan, when he had the remote viewers on, that was the best part of what Bell did for humanity.
And late at night, telling those stories because.
And it hasn't been done again.
Not John Long.
John Neville didn't do it.
Bill Jenkins tried to do it, but he had really flim flam people come in.
Bill Jenkins had a show in Los Angeles called Open Mind.
And one of the last things I want to mention to you is did you know that Dee Forrest Kelly had a paranormal investigation team on the 395 highway outside of places like Lone Pine?
Something he had experienced on the guy that played Bones, he had had something happen where a cigar shaped craft crossed the highway.
He was one of the only people that saw it.
He was an actor at the time, but long before his fame.
He then saw, I think he was in either Tennessee or Kentucky, and he looked at a newspaper and he said, I wish I had bought that newspaper because it said flying object scene, which confirmed what he was going through.
And Then later on, after the show was done, he felt it was okay.
They'd made an agreement never to talk about this stuff during the show Star Trek.
After it was over, he opened up this group up in the area of the Alabama Mountains, where Yvonne spent a lot of time, and where I got very creepy feelings.
Normalizing the Unseen Event00:04:09
I always asked her, What the hell are we doing up here?
And she'd say, Oh, I like it.
It's like Canada, but I got the feeling that something was up there.
And one day, we had to pile in the car because something was on the other side.
Of the tree line that looked like a large man.
And it was tracking me, and she said, Okay, we're out of here.
And as we went up the switchbacks, this thing was clearing space to try to confront the car.
And she stepped on it.
She knew where this thing was.
So, what got me into all this was direct experiences, a lack of hardline bad religion, if you will, like gospel stuff, which means that I didn't grow up with a dictum.
I didn't grow up with religious guilt.
And it led to a lot of stuff that was confirming that we as humans are really at the tip of the iceberg of what we can do.
That incident that you just described, where did that take place?
It was on the switchbacks after Bishop.
These are switchback roads leading up to Tom's place.
And there are terrible stories about murderous Bigfoot incidences.
And that's California.
California.
And I'll send you a brief on my account, but basically, I was a little kid collecting pine cones, and something was tracking us, especially me.
And she says, All right, let's go.
She says, All right, let's go.
And I knew, but we didn't have time to converse.
Like, there's a thing on the other side.
No, let's go.
And there was no time to talk.
We got in the car, and she just peeled out of there.
She showed me.
Her driving skills basically.
And we rounded the corner.
We could hear the screech.
And to my right, I could see something making giant purchases of crossing ground to try to head off the car.
And she outdid it with the speed of the car, but she could have launched us on the next curve.
She really barely made it, and then we were free.
But she did a few hyperventilations.
And then everything back to normal.
And she looks at me, she says, Let's have lunch.
It was really, it was like, Let's normalize this.
And this would happen down at Sleazy Sam's after the most uproarious conditions.
We would talk about what kind of coffee are you getting, what kind of pie.
And then it'd be like a few lines, Could you believe what we just said?
All right, you know, what are you going to do tomorrow?
And they'd try to normalize.
That's what would happen after an event.
There's no way you can take it dead on for a while until you think about it.
Absolutely.
It's almost like a coping mechanism.
When you're told something, sometimes you immediately start visualizing what happened.
If there's something offending, of course you're going to have to check it out, but some things flesh out the minute a person is relating an account to you and you start to see all the details of it.
I think that's a sign that internally you have to recognize that.
That's all.
Yes, it has to be more of an inner recognition of what's taking place that opens the whole experience up further.
And it definitely sounds like you had that sense of knowing, that psychic intuition operating when you really needed it.
Yeah, there was a man that approached our car.
This is also in the memoir.
We were victims of an attempted kidnapping after she filed with MGM after Bob's accident.
And a guy approaching the car, I could tell something was wrong about him before he approached the car.
He was going to take the easiest kid he could find.
Seeing Through Her Eyes00:07:51
And the idea was we have your kid drop the case.
And you got to remember, MGM in 1961 is only two years after Eddie Mannix, the fixer, has retired from MGM.
And he was well known for fixing things by putting criminal pressure on people in their private lives.
So we had objects stolen from out from under the Christmas tree.
Yvonne interfaced with quite a few aspects of what we call the dark history of Hollywood as she wended her way toward the role of Lily Munster.
Exactly.
More of a comic darkness.
Now, you mentioned to me a very unusual experience with her in the hospital as her health declined, where she went into an altered state and spoke to you.
Now, can you tell us about that?
Yeah.
There's now.
Oh, yes.
The Latin.
Yeah.
I was trained in Latin epigraphy, and it was after a terrible set of operations from which a very fine surgeon named Dr. Biederman saved her twice.
It's a marvelous surgeon.
I was sitting in the waiting room.
I knew that, you know, I was preparing myself that Yvonne wasn't going to make it, and she did.
She was very psychic after the surgery, and as I entered the room silently, she said, How have you been?
In a very low voice, almost like a priestess talking to somebody entering their temple or something.
And it was nine days.
And I had ordered them to save her, right?
Because I knew she had more life in her for something.
I didn't know what.
She looked at me and she said, Well, thank you for what you've done, but she said, Not ever again.
In other words, don't take this effort again.
And I said, Okay.
Now, days later, she had a blockage and we didn't know she'd survive.
Her eyes opened and she smiled, and it was not somebody like her.
It was somebody looking through her eyes.
And she spoke three lines of ancient Latin, starting with the words, Word ego, which means I am.
And then she smiled, or it smiled through her, because she knew that I was genuinely surprised.
And I knew enough to know that, yeah, sure, Yvonne was there, but she was being attended by and interfacing with things from another dimension.
I didn't feel that the thing was totally evil or totally good.
I felt that there was mischief, a lot of knowledge in this thing.
It was like there was an impatient waiting for her going on.
She saw giant angels at the door of her hospital, Durham, and you could tell that the idea, the tenor of it was they were waiting for her and that she was delaying.
And sure enough, in the fall, she went back to Universal in a wheelchair and a limo and she saw all the old stages that she used to be in.
She sat with the head of distribution and we talked about the future of filmmaking and.
You could tell that the people, this had started, by the way, the idea of her visiting the studio had started in the archive department.
It hadn't started at the top at all.
It was several people that said, wouldn't it be nice?
And then a guy named Manoa, who really was very facilitative, he arranged the limo, and everybody at Universal said, thumbs up, let's do it.
And eventually the president got involved, and people came out of their offices, like the scene from Sunset Boulevard, where Norma Desmond is back.
Right.
But this was a lot more sunshiny.
This was not dark and terrible.
This was like really nice people came out from up on there, you know, from the wardrobe department, from sound, and they all wanted to see her.
And I thought, my God, they were getting a ghostly glow of old Hollywood.
But before that happened, there was this scene in the hospital, in the hospital wing of the motion picture home, where she opened her eyes.
And there was somebody else looking out from in her eyes.
And three lines of Latin were spoken, starting with the word ego, I am.
So that's what I can tell you.
I've gone a little over that because I told you what happened afterwards.
I could think it was important to say, what did this curve lead to?
And I think it led to a sort of a closure.
She also was asking me and the driver, this producer, take me to Hollywood and Vine.
Which was a familiar place where all the dancers, like she was, she was a featured dancer at the Florentine Gardens.
Some would say that she was even a stripper, but she was really an exotic dancer with a featured role of dramatic stuff.
She wanted to see once again Hollywood and Vine, and I could read her thoughts.
She knew that what she knew it was was now gone, and that that brought closure.
The world that she had known was gone.
And she needed to know that somehow.
So there were little moments, you know.
She knew very well Burgess Meredith.
Have you ever seen the movie Day of the Locust?
Yes.
It's a very fine movie.
It's Hollywood in the 30s, and she identified the crazy little kid.
She called him the Hollywood Beast.
And Burgess, she wouldn't tell me.
Yvonne was very quiet, like a secret agent.
She just wanted to see what I thought of the film.
And she wanted to see Burgess in one of his great roles where.
He was a salesman that would go to terrible lengths with a heart condition to make a living.
And he pulled it off beautifully, of course.
But that was the Hollywood before she got there, which was kind of interesting.
But she was watching one of her friends because Burgess, when Yvonne was just a dancer, would say, Yvonne, you could come over to my place anytime and practice.
And that was before he got married to Paulette Goddard.
And so, you know, we're talking.
Way back in Hollywood, we're talking about Hank Fonda.
Henry Fonda is a young man.
And World War II is just starting.
She's dancing at the Hollywood Cantina with all the boys, some of whom would not come back from World War II.
We're talking about one hell of a panorama.
And that's what the later part of the book is about, which is called The Long Sunrise.
Because you get to the point where she's doing the monsters, it's declining, it's declining.
You think, well, God, this is going to be a downer.
But then.
I go to England in 1980 and I hear about the beginning.
And I come back and I say, All this happened and she opened up about it.
DeMille, the beginning, the way it was at the beginning in Hollywood.
You know, you can look in the wonderful biography of David Niven called Bring On the Moon as a Balloon about his early days in Hollywood, and it was just amazing.
The Long Sunrise Adventure00:03:13
Wow.
Remarkable.
It was a place of great.
Great potential ability to rise.
You just had to be open and you had to have something they wanted.
And there were much fewer people at that time competing for the same job.
And that was definitely a mathematical ratio that was true.
Oh, there's no question.
And I can only imagine the myth land that it was for Yvonne when she started out and her incredible track record of film roles and then her TV career.
She was a phenomenal talent and a very successful actress.
I'm just amazed at the incredible details of your life with her and the mystical experiences, just bring out that deep mystery side to all this.
So, Sapphire and the Sand, this book looks like it's going to be fantastic.
And I'll let all of our viewers know when it's available.
It's just amazing information, Bruce.
Thank you so much.
Well, listen, I've enjoyed this very much.
I compliment your work on the X series.
I definitely want to wait for the big volume of your book or your DVD on this whole thing because you've explored the people that were exploring the human spiritual condition.
Yes.
And I look forward to reviewing that again.
I think it's been good work that you've done.
Thank you very much.
I really appreciate it.
Of course, the mystery schools are the great inspiration and my favorite of all the subjects we cover here on the show because there's such an impulse there to move the culture and humanity forward.
And the message there is just that the spiritual, mystical side is there if we want it.
Of course, your life story with Yvonne shows that really well.
And then all the lives that you both have touched.
So the book will be something special for people to have.
I can't wait to see it.
It's an interesting set of eras that she went through.
She was very involved accidentally with the mob in New York.
And boy, that's another discussion.
Oh, yeah.
This was a life that was meant for adventure.
That's all I can tell you.
Absolutely.
It sounds like it.
And so, more on that later.
Yes, absolutely.
And we're going to record another segment with all of those juicy details, and I want to hear them all.
Bruce, it's been great to have you here today.
Thank you so much.
And you too.
Have a wonderful one.
All right.
Let's talk soon.
Absolutely.
Thanks for your time.
Bye bye.
Thank you for joining us, everyone, for this exclusive interview with Bruce Morgan.
We'll put together another deep segment with Bruce and get that out for you shortly.
And sign up for our newsletter to stay updated on our latest interviews, special reports, and episodes of the Dark Journalist X series.
And we'll keep you posted on Bruce's book.
In the meantime, right now I'm going to play a segment that Bruce was in about his mother's relationship with Howard Hughes for my latest documentary, X Protect The UFO File Assassins.
see you soon.
Hughes Aircraft and UFOs00:03:32
By 1947, billionaire Howard Hughes had carved out a unique space for his company, Hughes Aircraft, setting records and snapping up the lion's share of government military contracts.
Born in 1904, Hughes had come a long way since both of his parents had died, leaving the 19 year old the sole heir to a massive fortune built by his father at Hughes Tool Company in Texas, which patented an innovative rotary drill bit that revolutionized oil drilling.
During the Texas oil boom, Hughes would go on to become a fantastically successful movie producer.
Running RKO Studios and even directing the controversial favorite The Outlaw, featuring Jane Russell.
But his real love was aviation, and he had become legendary with his spectacular flying successes, like his flight around the world in three days, and also some bizarre entries, including the reconnaissance aircraft, the XF 11, which Hughes crashed flying low into Beverly Hills, but survived.
There were also what appeared to be spectacular failures, like the Hughes H 4 Hercules, the so called Spruce Goose, a massive flying boat.
Unlike anything seen before it, there were rumors that Hughes was keeping a major secret so competitors couldn't discover what he was working on.
An innovation so great it would change aviation forever.
The spiraling rumors and Hughes' enemies got so out of hand that Hughes had to testify before a Senate committee investigating the lack of transparency around his secretive plans and designs.
When Senator Brewster realized that he was fighting a battle against public opinion, a losing battle, he folded up and took a run out powder.
In 1948, Hughes created the Aerospace Group with a vision of conquering space travel.
According to reports, he was spurred on in part by seeing some unusual debris when he was called into Roswell in mid 1947 to observe the strange material.
Roswell would become the first known UFO crash when residents reported seeing unusual lights in the sky, and a rancher named Mac Brazzle told authorities about a large scale debris field scattered on his ranch from a crash craft of some kind.
Intelligence officer Major Jesse Marcel from the 509th Atomic Bomb Group. Was the first to see the wreckage.
He described a mysterious metal that wouldn't bend or burn, along with strange markings that resembled Egyptian hieroglyphics.
It was not anything from this earth that I'm quite sure of, because being an intelligence officer, I was familiar with just about all materials used in aircraft and our air travel.
This is nothing like that.
It could not have been.
The Army covered up the crash, explaining it away as a weather balloon, but a select Group of aviation specialists were called in to view the UFO crash remains, according to several accounts from retired military personnel.
Hughes was asked for his expertise, but reportedly attempted to take over the entire operation of examining the UFO wreckage.
Replicating the Crash Site00:05:20
Hughes was asked to leave the project.
The legendary aviator had imparted to a flying friend that he had observed UFOs before for many years.
Bruce Morgan, the son of Hollywood film star Yvonne DiCarlo, who dated Hughes in the period between 1946 and 1948, recalls how her cousin, Kenneth Ross McKenzie, a pilot in the Canadian Air Force who flew with Hughes, described his fascination with these unknown craft.
Her cousin Ken Ross McKenzie, who was in the Canadian RCAF, took flights with Howard Hughes.
And during that time, when they were up at altitude flying around, Howard Hughes had some kind of kinship with Ken because when they were alone in that plane, the conversations got very personal about why Hughes was interested in these strange crafts.
He said, I'm a designer and I want to know.
There was very little looking out of the window at night, as most pilots will tell you.
But what did come through sometimes, like big flashing beacons and the speed of them, as Hughes related, he said, I'm an aircraft designer.
I don't know where this stuff is from, but I sometimes get envious as we're working on things.
Whoever the hell is up here using this is way ahead of me.
And he wanted to know about design.
And he figured, well, this has got to be the cutting edge if these things are going that fast.
And Hughes talked about this stuff and then wanted to show Yvonne's.
Morgan relates how Hughes wanted to show Yvonne DiCarlo something that had crashed in an area outside of Las Vegas.
The area was called Rose Wells.
Morgan describes what happened here.
And he's taking Yvonne up in their plane, in his plane, personally.
And they go up to what I think was Reno, to a place called the Mapes.
Now, the time standard we're talking about here is somewhere between 1946, 1946, and it couldn't be later than 1949 because at that point she was involved with the Prince of Iran, Abdurraza Pahlav.
So, It had to be before 49.
And sometimes her and Hughes would be in several places in Hollywood.
And he was always the odd guy out, but always invited because he was interesting.
On this occasion, they went up to a place and spent three solid days together.
So after three days of all things must come to an end, and he says, I want to show you something interesting on the way back.
And he started to make calls because you have to shift over to get to the 95 to get to the area which was designated in the phone call as Rose Wells.
Which is on very old maps, but nowhere now.
What he conveyed to her was that Zeus had been a crash and there was something interesting.
And she said, Oh, sure.
And as she started packing, she started to get feelings.
And what she told me as to why she even remembered this was that she said, I suddenly realized if I saw what he was going to show me, I would never get it out of my mind.
And she said, Let's go back to Hollywood.
Now, why this story got told years later is the following She's sitting long past normal retirement, maybe.
A few more years to live.
And she's watching a documentary on Bob Lazar describing his adventure on looking at the inside of a UFO.
Specifically, I think it was called the Sport Model.
And he stuck his head in and he described his feelings.
But more than anything else, what Yvonne keyed in with was when he said, I didn't feel like I belonged there.
And she suddenly realized, she said, I believe he's telling the truth.
And it made her remember and then tell me about this event with Hughes.
Because of what Lazar said, she said, I remember this.
And I remember thinking, I don't want to see this.
She could already feel something about this.
And maybe, who knows, maybe she could even visualize it in her mind because the whole family on the DiCarlo side was psychic.
And she said, If I see this, I'll never get it out of my mind.
Years later, DiCarlo would reflect on her relationship with the mysterious aviator.
Did you have a fling with Howard Hughes?
That was more than a fling, it was a romance for about three years.
Oh, he was wonderful then, huh?
Yeah.
He taught me how to fly.
He wouldn't marry me, so I gave him up.
The strange destination that Hughes wanted to bring DeCarlo to, called Rose Wells, was eventually removed from official maps of the area.
But Morgan found these examples showing exactly where it was.
The one that I showed you was the oldest.
That goes back to like 1911, you know, really old.
Then it disappears, and what you get around it is the area of Pahrump, where Ard Bell was, so that people know well, where is this?
You're north of Indian Springs, you're south of Mercury, and you're on the 95, and you're looking off to your left if you're going north, which means it's on the west side of the highway.
And it's not that far off, but it has disappeared as a stated place on the map.
UFO crash sites disappearing off maps, a strong desire to replicate.
The UFO X technology that he had witnessed during his own flights.
Hughes had gone deep into the UFO mystery, and soon other covert forces would be looking to use that fact to their advantage.