Dr. Joseph Farrell and Olivia dissect Permindex, a Swiss entity linked to Louis Bloomfield and the CIA, alleging its role in JFK's assassination via secret UFO files and Nazi technology deals. They connect the $134 billion Italian bearer bond scandal to off-the-books funding for invisibility devices and the Philadelphia Experiment, while theorizing that lunar probes hit artificial roofs hiding Soviet astronaut deaths. Ultimately, Farrell argues Jim Garrison's trial exposed a post-war fascist network controlling space access, suggesting current moon silence stems from hazardous ruins rather than mission failure. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Trump, McCarthy, and Forrestal00:12:15
Hello, everyone.
This is Dark Journalist with a very special Part 2 episode with Oxford scholar Dr. Joseph Farrell on the shadowy corporation known as Permandex that specialized in CIA money laundering internationally and political assassination.
The shadowy group was based in Switzerland and run out of Montreal by lawyer Louis Bloomfield, who was also president of Heineken Beer at the time, with the esoteric motto Nec Pluribus Impar, alluding to the Sun King or Louis XIV.
The fascist who's who of Permindex was revealed by the mysterious and anonymous Torbitt document, and they were thrown out of Europe for political espionage.
Bloomfield's papers are still at the heart of a legal battle in Canada, especially his correspondence with former President George Bush Sr.
We'll also look at how this relates to the assassination of President Kennedy and how President Trump may also have knowledge of these forces through his longtime relationship with political fixer Roy Cohn.
Here we go, Permindex 2.
The Bloomfield Papers.
Cohn basically gave him his political blueprint for how to manage that swamp.
Right.
There's no question about it.
It's an undeniable piece of history.
Right.
Also, something that I've tried to bring out and we've talked about, which is Trump and Nixon.
Mm hmm.
And Trump bringing Nixon to New York and Nixon writing him letters saying, I think you should run for president, you'll win.
Mm hmm.
There's that incredible picture of Nixon and Trump on both sides while John Connolly's in the middle.
There's a fundraiser going on.
Now, we know in politics, you show up for pictures for specific reasons.
If you're going to stand there with the man from the assassination car, there's something going on there.
Oh, yeah.
There's no doubt in my mind that, again, this is a little symbolic message going on and that Trump knows a lot more about it than meets the eye.
Declassified a lot of those documents, amongst which was that odd little document about, oh, by the way, Dolph is alive and well down in South America.
How does this get in the Kennedy documents, folks?
Yes.
So, yeah, there's lots of dots going on here.
And Cohn, I think, given the fact that he's in the hot seat at the Army McCarthy hearings, and it's clear that this was a deep state setup to take not just McCarthy down, but I think to take Cohn down.
Yes.
Because Cohn was just too well connected, even at that young age.
You know, he had to have been well connected.
He had established his reputation during the prosecution of Ethel and Julius Rosenberg, and so on and so forth.
So you had this nexus that had to be taken down.
And let's not forget that McCarthy Forrestal nexus that's hovering in the background.
So Cohn was in a position.
To know a lot of things from a very early age about the Kennedys, about Forrestal, about that whole business with McCarthy, and on and on we go, the Torbitt document, and so on and so forth.
So, if there's any one person that can fill President Trump in on all the factions of the swamp and how to negotiate through them, it's Roy Cohn.
And they must know on a certain level if Vannevar Bush.
Was Trump's uncle's mentor at MIT, which is on the record.
Yes.
And they must know that at least the possibility is damn good that he knows about the UFO file.
Oh, I think it's absolutely very good.
And the reason why I think that is, again, you've got Trump playing the media, and I'm using James Rickert's observation.
You've got Trump playing the media like puppies.
He throws a ball, and the media goes after the ball, and they chase it, and they come back with the ball wagging their tail, and they're all excited while he's off doing something else.
He's very masterful at this.
It's kind of fun to watch.
But Trump, if all of these dots connect, Then Trump has been letting out that he knows things with his little tweets like, oh, yeah, we have weapons.
We don't need to use nukes.
Right.
You know, and everybody is pilloring him for that tweet.
And what an odd tweet to say.
Well, we don't need to use nukes.
We've got better stuff than mere atomic energy.
Right.
So do I think he knows?
Well, there's his uncle, there's Vannevar Bush, there's Roy Cohn, there's the Monmouth hearings, you know, all of this stuff.
Plus, you've got Kennedy and his little UFO deal with the Soviets.
Do I think he knows?
Yeah.
Definitely.
Well, Kennedy also, if we look at Forrestal, this is the interesting thing.
Forrestal, who shows up over and over again in anything around majestic documents, as being deep in the UFO file.
Right.
He's the first defense secretary of the United States, and he's Truman's.
And Truman is somebody who oversees the Roswell, and so he's president during that period.
So, um, In post war Berlin, where Forrestal is set up as the man to oversee that reconstruction, who's the guy that he brings in to look at it?
It's a young John Kennedy.
There are four Kennedys in Congress.
So these are tight friends.
Yes, these are very tight friends.
They've got some sort of private agenda.
They're all Roman Catholic.
Right.
And yeah, yeah, I don't discount that as being a major factor here.
You know, even Edward Kennedy, up till his convenient plane accident, he was, he does a complete 180 on a lot of his policies.
Yes.
You know, like message received, I'll be a good boy now.
Right.
You've got some sort of interest going on there.
But when you connect the fact that every one of these individuals, from Kennedy to Nixon to Roy Cohn to Trump, DeForestall, they've all got some sort of connection or alleged connection to UFOs and to secret technology.
They've all got some sort of connection.
And in many of those cases, it appears they're trying to get to the bottom of something that is being withheld from them.
I mean, again, look at those Monmouth McCarthy transcripts and you can tell.
It's this shot through them that the military is being very evasive.
It's almost pretty angry exchanges.
Oh, some of them are.
Yeah, some of them are.
Yeah.
Because you can tell in some of those exchanges that Cohen and McCarthy know a lot more than they're saying in their questions.
Even for them to be able to ask the questions in the way that they do indicates they know something.
And you can tell that they're not happy with the answers that the military is giving them because again and again they keep hammering, well, why didn't you do it this way?
Why didn't you do it that way?
You know, this was the procedure.
This was the protocol, particularly from McCarthy.
So I think this aspect of the Kennedy assassination, this technology UFO aspect, is another central issue that he crossed swords with the intelligence complex that wanted to maintain control of that narrative.
And let's not forget, within the ufology community, there were all these people that were saying, well, Hillary's going to be the disclosure president.
And you did have clear UFO agendas being hinted at in some of the emails between the Podestas and Mrs. Clinton and the Podestas and Tom DeLong and so on and so forth.
There was some sort of UFO agenda that they had in mind that, you know, along comes Trump and that whole thing is out the window.
Right, right.
So again, you know, I think we're living in a long historical arc of some sort here and all of this is connected somehow.
It's amazing because when bringing up the TTSA part, as soon as Clinton doesn't get in, TTSA suddenly is a bunch of CIA people.
When before it wasn't.
Right.
That's very telling.
And suddenly it becomes this very strange operation with no presidential support.
Right.
For his part, he is starting the Space Force, he opens the Space Council, he puts Pence in charge, he has the Secretary of State show up, which is interesting.
So, we're seeing that that's the two ops that are interchanged there.
And the other one, they figured the DeLong, Podesta, Clinton one, they had the media somehow.
Right.
They were like, we'll do this through the media, and it won't matter how you reach for the UFO file, we'll get it through this.
Right.
And so they put out this fake, well, the threat narrative.
This is the big thing they want to do.
And, like, oh, we need protection against aliens.
And this is their thing.
Well, And let's remember what Trump said, actually, about the Space Force when he was out in California.
We need another Space Force.
Yes.
What?
We already have one and we need another one?
Why do we need another one?
Yeah.
Are the people in control of the one that we don't have but already do have not to be trusted and that's why we need another one?
That's, yeah.
Now you're getting close to the point.
You know, you're making me think of, um, Reagan and Star Wars with this.
Bingo!
And oh, by the way, Mr. Gorbachev, if we suddenly find ourselves afoul of a bunch of aliens, will you help us out, please?
Well, sure we will, Ron.
I thought when Gorbachev told that story to Charlie Rose, pre sex scandal, I thought Kissinger was going to drop.
Right there.
Oh, I did too.
Yeah.
I did too.
Shut up, Mikhail.
And Charlie Rose starts to laugh and, like, you know, what a good jokester that Reagan was.
I don't think so.
No, I don't think so.
Because Gorbachev was serious as a clam.
Oh, yeah.
He was serious as a clam.
Everything drops in that room.
Everything drops, you know.
And it's so bizarre when you start connecting all these dots since we're on the subject.
Let's not forget Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, about a month before the Chelyabinsk meteor incident, says, Oh, yeah, you know, we've got to do something about our asteroid defenses and we need some sort of international cooperation on this.
But if we don't get that, we'll just go ahead and build our own and, you know, maybe use our nuclear weapons and other things.
And it's the other things I'm thinking, okay, did no one else but me catch this?
And then all of a sudden, President Trump says, Oh, yeah, we don't need nuclear weapons.
We got better stuff to wipe people out with.
Wow, it is.
The Moon Mission Deal00:06:29
It's incredible.
And Trump also hints at invisibility.
Oh, yeah.
And he's come out a few times, and the media has actually reeled him in and been like, Oh, look at him.
He's saying these things and really scaring our allies.
I mean, it's fascinating, too.
He's just the kind of guy who would be like, Oh, yeah, we got invisibility.
I'm going to tell you about it.
Well, you know, who better than to tell him about that sort of stuff?
Certain experiments done in World War II, other than his uncle and Roy Cohn.
Hello, Philadelphia Experiment.
Yeah, hello, Philadelphia Experiment.
Exactly.
So, you know, I'm not surprised about any of this.
Yes.
And the thing that starts all of this whole ball rolling is John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, well, Kennedy, 10 days later, Before he's assassinated, issues those two memos.
Yes.
Outer Space Cooperation, which I've seen at the Kennedy Library, and the other one, which was a FOIA request, came through the CIA and they never denied it.
So that one has been used over a thousand times in media reports and cited.
So the two of those documents are not like some flyaway MJ documents.
No.
They're clear as a bell.
What they suggest is that, one, he's planning a moon mission in cooperation with.
Them in outer space with the Russians.
And Sergei Khrushchev confirms the moon part.
So we know that without a doubt.
So joint moon mission, one.
Two, I want those UFO files from the CIA director.
And three, I want to talk about NASA's job as a defense, you know, their responsibilities for defense.
Those three things, and then 10 days later, he's assassinated.
Now, certainly they could have been planning that assassination for a long time, but that didn't help matters much.
That didn't help matters, and remember who ends up in charge of NASA's UFO files?
Dr. Kurt Davis.
Yes, yes.
So, again, the way I'm parsing the UFO aspect of this is that, okay, President Kennedy tells the CIA, I want you to vet all of your UFO files for the purposes of turning what ones do not affect.
National security over to the Soviets so that we can get some cooperation going on this issue.
Well, if you're a bunch of Nazis inside the CIA, this is yet another blow at the cover behind which you operate.
The last thing that you want to be doing is turning over things that you are keeping watch on over to your hated enemies, the Bolsheviks.
And I absolutely think that there's an aspect of this there.
That also needs some investigation that no one's investigated.
You know, as far as I'm concerned, we struck some sort of deal probably during the Kennedy administration with this group of Nazis to get aspects of their technology so that we could get to the moon and then get off of it once we were there.
Yes.
And Kennedy comes along and issues that memorandum, and that throws that whole deal into a cocked hat.
Right.
So you have yet another motivation.
So, I mean, he is pissing off everybody across the board.
This is fascinating, actually.
Let's explain that out a little bit, which is that the Nazis were developing technology for space.
And that we, by the time we beat Germany, but not the Nazis, a lot of that technology had been shipped out already.
They were already seeing the handwriting on the wall.
It's in Argentina, it's somewhere.
And so, when looking at this problem of going to the moon and being supreme in space, we don't As Americans have the technology on our own, right?
To work with this group, right?
Post fascist group you've identified in your work, right?
This material out that came originally from Nazi Germany and involves the Bell and other types of technology like that.
So, by the time we're going and doing the moon mission, we might be able to get there, but getting off the moon is a totally different matter, right?
That's always been my thesis.
Um, I think some sort of deal was struck, uh.
With this group of Nazis prior to the end of the war to get their hands on it.
Because where you see their most advanced projects going are Great Britain, Canada, the United States, and South America, Argentina.
And they're very clever about, you know, I pointed this out before, they're very clever about the way they divide the spoils.
They make sure that the Russians get enough middle echelon management people to reconstruct the documents trail for their rocketry program.
We get the creme de la creme of their rocket scientists, but the other scientists that were involved in the much more exotic projects are dispersed mostly throughout the Western world, Canada, United Kingdom, and so on, even in some cases, France.
So they disperse it, and by dispersing it, they keep their hands on its control.
There's a central coordinating body somewhere, I strongly suspect, in Argentina.
That's coordinating this dispersed research activity.
And this deal is struck covertly at the end of the Second World War, and then codicils or appendices are added to the deal when America decides, well, we're going to go to the moon.
Everybody knew, everybody knew that deep space exploration just was not going to be possible with chemical rockets.
It would require.
An exotic technology of some sort.
Bay Pigs and Permindex00:07:32
This is just a given.
And I think that realization came very, very early on.
This is why you have people like Dr. Obert involved with it, because he was definitely into the exotic stuff.
And Kennedy, probably, in my thinking, had not been apprised of any of this, as probably was not Eisenhower or, for that matter, Truman.
This was all being done behind the back of the executive.
So, Kennedy comes along and he decides that it's necessary for us not to extend these geopolitical problems we have on Earth into outer space.
Makes his offer to Khrushchev.
Khrushchev eventually decides to accept it.
And, you know, both men are overthrown one through assassination and the other through a palace coup.
Right.
I strongly suspect that Kennedy put his foot in something he didn't even know existed.
And this was yet another reason.
A motivation for the involvement of the fascist component in the assassination because that's the most deeply hidden component.
Right.
And it's responding to the most deeply hidden aspect of those interests that were out to get Kennedy.
Wow.
Incredible.
And I guess that brings us around to Bloomfield and Permindex.
One of the things I found out about Bloomfield and Permindex.
You know, you've shown a light on Permindex and given us an idea of the type of organization that it is.
In fact, it's a Swiss organization which has these deep fascist ties and connections to the CIA.
And there were some interesting early researchers on it, like Paris Flamand and people like this.
What it seems like is interesting is that this branch that's over there in Montreal is kind of like the legal and record.
Keep his ranch.
Yes.
And it's also very interesting that Bloomfield is Jewish because many of the people in these fascist organizations, there's open hostility.
And yet, he is a deep Zionist, and we've seen this crossover before as we've played out in your work.
One of the things I think is interesting when looking at Bloomfield is his background is very unusual in that he's this legal.
Person, he's a member, he does all this work for the CIA.
He is the president of Heineken.
These are, it's like the multiple identity thing going on here again.
But one of the things that he does is he is the executor of Lady Davis's estate.
Lady Davis, being this kind of wealthy benefactor, she donates a lot of her money to something in Israel called Technion, where they develop.
It is the MIT, basically, of Israel.
So, right off the bat, with Bloomfield, you've got a technology connection.
So, some of the things that we've been looking at are this court case that's going on with the Bloomfield papers, which were originally supposed to be released in 2004 because he died in 84 and he actually gave permission.
I think this is interesting because we often see this.
It's like we hear about these documents that we can get at maybe.
We're supposed to be able to get at them, but we can't.
So the CIA documents that are behind the JFK secrecy wall, the X letter at the LBJ library, we know that they're there, but we can't get our hands on them.
The Bloomfield case has gone through the court system and back and forth.
And even though the court sided with it, the Canadian archives still haven't given up.
They gave up some of them, but they have 69 files of this guy's work.
So some of the ones that we did get were these letters that he had with.
George Bush Sr., who was CIA director in those letters, and then vice president.
And then we know he became president and his son president.
So that connection, which had not been brought forward previously, what are we to make of Bush being on the scene with Permandex after thinking about the Torbitt document?
Well, look, I strongly suspect that you've hit on something there because you were kind enough to share those documents before we did the show.
And I looked at them, and the first thing I was thinking was yeah, number one, Permandex, because Lewis Bloomfield is one of the people the Torbitt document.
Mentions as being connected to Permandex.
Yes.
And the other thing that immediately struck me was Montreal, the center of the Quebecois movement.
You know, Charles de Gaulle travels to Quebec, Quebec, you know, in the 60s and stirs up a storm of controversy because he's urging the Quebecois, you know, just get out of Canada, you know.
But I strongly suspect his real reason for going there was that the OAS had some influence inside of.
Quebec and based in Montreal.
So, again, you've got this other connection lurking in the background here to people that de Gaulle suspected were involved with Kennedy's assassination.
But Bush's presence here is the most interesting because at the time of the Kennedy assassination, Bush had apparently, and I think the case is rather strong, been involved with this Operation Zapata.
Which was the whole Bay of Pigs thing.
And he had purchased an island that was conveniently located close between Florida and Cuba and so on and so forth.
There's all sorts of other strange connections of Bush to the Bay of Pigs.
Then you've got, of course, Bush Sr., Bush the Smarter, as I call him, as opposed to Bush the Stupid.
Don't hold back, Farrell.
Tell us what you really think of that, Sam.
But you've got George Herbert Walker not being able to come up with a convenient explanation of where he really was on the day of the assassination and what he was really doing.
It's so bizarre.
It's very bizarre because everybody can remember something about where they were that was alive at the time.
So, him showing up in relationship to Lewis Bloomfield in these documents, it's very clear that they've had a number of exchanges.
Yes.
You know, the letters themselves are just the usual pro forma things.
But what they're indicating is that there's some sort of relationship here that these two know each other from a long time back.
Yes.
And with Bloomfield's connection to Permandex and Bush's connection to the Bay of Pigs, I'm thinking, there it is, folks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They do.
In those letters, they talk about meeting in Peking.
Bonds with the Moon00:08:30
Yeah.
So they're all around the world together.
Mm hmm.
Which makes you wonder just exactly what's going on with the Chinese Communist Party.
But anyway, that's another show, folks.
I've got some thoughts on that, too.
I'd love to hear what you're thinking about those guys.
Well, you know, Stalin was not an early supporter of Mao Zedong.
He was actually a supporter of Chiang Kai shek.
Oh, yes, yes.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that's an aspect of things that don't often enter the discussion.
It may have something to do with those bonds and all that money, but.
Just a thought.
You know, you made me think of the bonds there.
And this is quite fascinating because, in those very unusual bonds that you covered in the Breakaway Civilization book, I think I have it here.
Some of those bonds had Kennedy's face on them.
Yeah.
This is very interesting.
Well, let's look at that.
You know, I talked about that in the 2014 Secret Space Program Conference.
Yeah.
These bonds, and it's important to understand the context in which these pictures first emerged.
When the Italian bearer bonds scandal broke, where you had those two Japanese men that were caught by the Guardia di Finanza going into Switzerland with a briefcase with a false bottom that contained $134 billion worth of bearer bonds.
Wow.
That just happened to be the same amount of money in the Troubled Asset Relief Fund.
Ah.
Ah.
Which, remember, President Obama was asked about that a couple weeks later in a press conference, and his response was, well, as far as I'm concerned, I've been told those are all fake.
Well, these Kennedy bonds began to appear in the aftermath of that story.
There is nothing directly linking them to this story.
Right.
But they began to appear after that story.
And on the obverse face of the bond, you have President Kennedy's face, like you would on an American bill of currency.
On the reverse of the bond, you have the moon.
You have the space shuttle and you have the lunar excursion module.
Right.
On the front of the bond, you have a red seal that says Money World, but it's designed to look kind of like the red seal of the U.S. Treasury on a United States note.
And Money World, when you start digging into it, you discover from the Vatican's coverage of the Italian bearer bond scandal, the Vatican.
You can't make this up.
You can't make this up.
You discover that these bonds were put out by a securities company that trades in sovereign securities in Southeast Asia called Money World.
Okay.
So, what's going on here?
Why is Money World putting out pictures of bonds that never existed?
This would seem to me to be bad for business.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Talk about your counterfeit.
Yeah, talk about your counterfeit.
But it's very interesting that these bonds were denominated in $1 billion apiece.
And that's what Gotham denounced as fake because supposedly the United States has never issued bonds denominated in a billion dollars.
Right.
So I think these things were either counterfeits of something real or were the real thing.
And the reason why is the clue for me is on the back of these.
Bonds with the moon, the space shuttle, and the lunar excursion module, and President Kennedy on the front.
And that is that, in my thinking, when they set up this hidden system of finance, they did so precisely as a means of funding exotic technology research completely off the books.
To do this, you have to have the participation of major prime banks and brokerage houses around the world to underwrite any securities that you're going to be using in that hidden system.
And the way you're going to You're going to get them on board with doing something that egregiously illegal, you're going to have to collateralize this somehow.
Well, how do you do that?
Well, Venice is the model.
The banks of Venice issue loans to their merchants to go out and trade spices and slaves and bullion and whatever.
And the banks get a cut of whatever they bring back.
That's the collateralization of the loan.
So that's what these bonds represent.
And they're collateralizing space and whatever assets are out there.
Right.
And lo and behold, it was after these bearer bond stories.
Started to break that you also saw stories about going out and mining asteroids.
And this asteroid is worth 14 to 17 quadrillion dollars.
And oh, look, that just happens to be the amount of derivatives on the books that we've got to cover, you know?
Gee, fancy that.
No coincidence there.
So, yeah, I think there's something about these Kennedy bonds that were the real thing.
So, why put Kennedy on them?
Well, I suspect, number one, the obvious reason that he is the guy that made public America's let's go to the moon program.
But the other reason I suspect is a more hidden one in that he was the guy that, through his policies, was taking direct aim at that whole system of hidden finance and its secret space program aspects.
So, you know, you signal your triumph over the hated enemy by sticking him on your bomb.
Yeah.
As kind of a, you know.
Typical elitist thing to thumb your nose at the populist president.
That is fascinating.
And also, that's a secret space economy.
Yes.
Yeah.
Want to know where all those missing trillions went?
Want to know why they're taking the federal government budget completely black?
There you go.
Yes.
And 21 trillion is just the start.
And 21 trillion is just the start.
And oh, by the way, China wants to set up a free trade zone between the earth and the moon now.
I blogged about that recently.
Yes, yeah.
So, yeah, as far as I'm concerned, all these dots connect.
You've got clear indications that there's a space aspect to the Kennedy assassination that few people realize is what is the biggest aspect of this that's squatting right in the middle of all of it.
And it's that aspect of things that's carried through with all of those other presidents that the deep state has gone after in some form or fashion.
Nixon, Carter, Reagan, they've all got something going on as far as space is concerned.
And you've got definite attempts to take these people out of the picture because they don't want to play the globalist internationalist game.
And space is a huge component of that, I'm convinced.
The October surprise.
The October surprise, yeah.
This is fascinating.
Kennedy is the one who's really driving for the moon.
Yes.
And he's the major force behind that.
When we get to the moon, there's a lot of strange things involved with this, as you pointed out.
One of the weird aspects is the coincidence of Chappaquiddick happening on the same day as the moon landing.
That's pretty interesting.
But I think what's even more fascinating about it, and you've pointed out dates, like July 20th being the anniversary date of.
October Surprise Detonation00:02:53
The assassination attempt on Adolf Hitler in 1944.
It's the 25th anniversary to the day.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
Whose eagle really landed?
Right.
The Adler is gelandet, yeah?
No, I mean, the eagle has landed.
Dub that out, guys.
It's interesting, too, because that group that wanted to oust Hitler and had planted the bomb, and that should have been the end of Hitler, in fact, saved by a freak accident up the table.
Mm hmm.
But it is interesting because that's kind of the faction who wanted to take over and sort of dispose of Hitler and move along.
That's the faction we're talking about dealing with here.
That's the faction, and that faction had been in contact with certain American factions based in Switzerland by the name of Dulles, that was also trying to figure out a way to bring, you know, forget about Franklin Roosevelt, you know, that guy in the White House.
We want an end to the.
To the war between the Western Allies and Nazi Germany.
So, you know, they can turn around and finish off the Soviets.
And it's very bizarre.
And in my thinking, what galvanizes that party in Nazi Germany to go after Hitler is, in my thinking, their probable knowledge that Nazi Germany is getting very close.
To detonating an atomic bomb, which in my opinion actually happened in October of 1944.
And I talk about that in Reich of the Black Sun.
The hidden atomic history of the age.
You've got the Zinser affidavit that perfectly describes a nuclear detonation in 1944.
So I think if you're those Germans that are thinking we overthrow Hitler and then we tell the Allies, oh, by the way, we've got it.
You want to continue this fight or not?
And the answer is probably not.
So, yeah, I think there was actual inside knowledge motivating these people.
And I think probably that knowledge spills over on the American side because right up to the end of the war, the Manhattan Project was fearful that they were going to beat us.
Hidden Atomic History00:13:04
And.
Then, after the war, they have to concoct this ridiculous narrative that the Germans are nuclear bumblers, you know, when they invent the fields.
Yeah, right.
The best scientists there.
Yeah, so, you know, that narrative, that dog never hunted for me.
So, anyway.
It's interesting to note that Kennedy sets the moon landing in motion, and then the moon landing happens under Nixon, and then we have some more moon landings, manned moon landings, and then 72.
That's it.
Yeah.
No more moon landings.
They revert to different things like the shuttle and, you know, they're sending probes out and stuff, but no more manned missions.
And now, suddenly in 2019, Mike Pence comes forward and says, We're going to do it by 2024.
We're going back to the moon.
Joseph, what happens 50 years in between?
You know, everybody has wondered about that.
And I can only think of.
Two more or less major reasons.
There's lots of other littler reasons.
But the first reason would be if people like Hoagland are correct and they discovered much more ruins up there than were thought originally to be there,
then any landings become hazardous in the extreme unless you know exactly where they are and how to negotiate your way through them, which is with that little.
Set of rockets on the bicycle called the Lunar Excursion Module is kind of iffy.
That's the first explanation.
The second explanation that's been bandied about in the ufology community for many, many years is that we were literally warned off and told not to go back.
Right.
By whoever is up there or whoever's down here that doesn't want us going back up there.
Who knows?
Right.
But there's this warned off hypothesis.
Which makes, to my mind, some sense from the standpoint of certain ancient texts that have this idea that there's some sort of quarantine zone around the Earth and it's at the orbit of the moon.
If you, you know, and scientists have pointed this out, if you are planning to keep an eye on these hairless monkeys down here on this planet, the perfect place to do it is, you know, on the moon.
I find it very interesting that China.
Decided to land one of its probes on the far side of the moon, which takes a lot of doing.
You know, you have to have orbiting satellites up there for the relays and everything else to be able to pull that off.
So I think there's that they're looking for something.
And curiously, everybody that's gone to the moon with probes since then, beginning with Clementine, then you had the Japanese, you had the Indians with Chandra Kassin or whatever it is, and then the Chinese, they release a few pictures.
That are interesting, and the rest of them they don't release and they don't talk about it.
Yes.
So, my guess is there's a strong case to be made for the first hypothesis that maybe they're discovering all sorts of stuff that makes that very hazardous.
So, it could be any number of things.
Pardon me?
You would lean towards ruins.
I would lean more towards ruins than presence, but let's.
Let's remember that presence doesn't have to mean the presence of another type of life form.
It could be the presence of booby traps, artificial robots, or things left behind by whoever was there before.
So it could mean any number of things.
But I do think that there's something that has kept the major spacefaring powers away.
The fact, well, the fact, the other part of this is interesting to me.
The fact that you have so many countries now talking about establishing a human permanent presence on the moon, to me, indicates that whatever technological threat may have been posed is now solved.
It's over.
It's over.
The threat is over.
The threat, well, the threat may not be over, but.
It's manageable.
It's manageable.
In other words, we've achieved some sort of parity with it.
Yes.
So there's any number of ways to parse this.
Either the threat's over or we've established parity.
But now all the talk is there.
And what it's telling me is, yeah, they've got the toys to enforce the presence there.
The traditional stories about why we haven't been back to the moon on behalf of the government don't add up.
A NASA story about it doesn't add up either.
Not by a long shot.
You had a program that was all about manned emissions.
Right, right.
Well, let's remember Apollo 18, the booster was ready and paid for.
So, it wasn't a matter of budget cuts.
Right.
That mission was ready to go.
So, why didn't we go?
Then you've got those people that think that we, well, we have been back, but it's been kept secret.
Then you've got the whole Nazis on the moon crowd, which I don't buy, but you've got those people out there that are saying that some group from Earth got there long before and have just said, you know, stay away.
This is ours.
Right.
But you've got a lot of factors there, and none of you're right.
None of the explanations that have been publicly offered as to why we never went back are adequate.
I suspect one of two things will happen somebody will go back, and at that point, all the beans may be spilled, or we're going to see yet more endless delays.
Right.
Right.
That could very well be.
Mm hmm.
They could be worried that India will get up there and blurt.
And so now they have to kind of take it over and be public about it when they didn't have to, when these countries really couldn't do that.
Right.
Yeah, they've got serious competition now.
They've got Japan to worry about.
They've got India.
They've got China.
The Russians could certainly send things up there.
The Europeans play an odd game because they've gone more towards Mars than they have toward the moon.
But in their Mars probes, the Germans have been releasing these incredible photos of.
Stuff without comment.
Here it is, folks.
It's rather astonishing.
So, if the narrative changes, the thing I find very interesting about India is that India has been specifically targeting the southern pole of the moon, just like that NASA mission several years ago, LCROSS, that was targeting the southern pole.
And I've been suspicious as heck about that mission.
Cross four L's, and what do you get?
You get a swastika.
Yes.
Yeah.
And that whole mission was so played up and hyped up in the public oh, you'll be able to see the explosion from the earth, and so on and so forth, and then nothing.
Right.
And I think Hoagland had absolutely the correct take on it that what happened was it crashed through the roof of something, you know, be it a cavern or an artificial roof, and that's why you didn't see the explosion.
There was a signature, but it was very different from what you'd expect.
So there's all sorts of stuff going on, and My bet for now is still on the ruins hypothesis rather than people warning us off, but it could be either.
We're caught as people trying to read tea leaves of whatever little bits of information they decide to dole out.
No question about it.
There are a couple of things, there are a couple of weird stories about the moon, and I just want to get your take on them since we're on the moon aspect right now.
There have been stories that the Soviets landed on the moon and couldn't get off and that their astronauts died there.
Yes.
How much weight do you give those stories?
I give them more weight than most people because it's always been a puzzlement to me why the Soviets, with their experience in building big boosters, had so much difficulty putting a manned probe on the moon.
Now, we do know that the big boosters that they were building for their moon missions, you can go online and see pictures of these things, they're just gigantic.
Were experienced two dramatically bad catastrophic explosions on the launch pad.
And I strongly suspect that there was sabotage involved.
In other words, clowns in America.
But there's nothing to have prevented, in my opinion, the Soviets from trying, and this would be a very Soviet thing to do, from trying a secret launch and landing.
And if it was successful, Then, hey guys, you know, here they are.
Right.
You know, it would be a very Russian thing to do.
Let's remember Sputnik was launched in total secrecy, and once they got it up there, oh, by the way, America, that little dinging you hear, that's us.
It would have been part of their modus operandi to do something like that.
So I wouldn't be surprised if they had attempted it.
I really would not.
Could you imagine an era when they would have pulled this off?
I would say either late 60s or early 70s, right about the time of our moon landing.
The public story that has been put out was, again, that their big boosters that they were building kept blowing up on the launch pad.
And therefore, they canceled their program and said, well, let the Americans land there.
We're not that interested.
I'm not buying that.
I just don't buy that.
Plus, we've got to remember the Soviets had their own version of exotic propulsion research going on as early as the end of the war.
And there are indications that some of that was rather successful.
So, again, I don't rule it out of the question.
The fact that Russia has been so willing to go along with.
The American narrative of the moon landings to me is very suspicious.
Yeah.
They have not challenged, they have not corrected, they have not modified.
They've been very nice about this.
And when you go back to what I pointed out in SS Brotherhood of the Bell, that the American and Soviet launches of lunar probes appear to be interpretable from two points of view, and only two points of view.
Number one, This is the race.
We launch a few, the Russians launch a few, and we're in a race.
But the other way of looking at that schedule of launches is as coordination.
Yes.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And the exotic research that the Soviets were doing, you think that Russia has that now.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There was a fame, and Richard Dolan talks about this in the first volume of his UFOs and National Security State, of an American senator that is touring the Soviet Union, and he's Taking a train ride through the Transcaucasus region and looks out the window, and there's a forest.
He sees this thing levitate out of the forest, and then a few minutes later, his KGB guide comes and pulls down the shades.
Garrison's Fascist Connection00:10:08
You didn't see that.
And the senator's opinion was well, he was meant to see that.
Right.
And they put a big show on for him like you were not meant to see that.
So, yeah, I think probably they did get some of this Nazi stuff at the end of the war.
Not that they needed it, they certainly had their own people that were talking along these lines during the interwar period themselves.
So, Would they investigate it?
Sure, absolutely.
Especially with Stalin in control.
Yes.
Okay, the Americans have the bomb.
We've got to come up with something really cool and really fast.
Just amazing.
Wow.
And this is all bringing me back to Clay Shaw, strangely enough.
Yes.
Clay Shaw, who is the New Orleans businessman that Jim Garrison charged with conspiracy.
Yes.
And it's the only trial in the death of John Kennedy.
We all know that Lee Harvey Oswald was charged, but he was assassinated himself by Jack Ruby.
And actually, in your book, Microcosm and Medium, you have some very interesting things to say about Jack Ruby in terms of hypnosis and mind control, which is really a powerful work there.
But Shaw, when he's grabbed, it seems like there's great surprise.
There and their team isn't ready for it, they didn't expect it to be coming.
And so there's the director of the CIA, his assistant is a guy named Victor Marchetti in this period.
And he later will claim in his book, The Cult of Intelligence, that the director comes and calls this meeting and is like, what can we do to help Shaw out?
And what kind of help can we give him in New Orleans against Garrison?
Now that's Richard Helms.
The director.
So obviously, immediately, flags are going off when Garrison grabs Shaw.
The CIA is very interested in rescuing him.
Right.
Now, Shaw also appears in this torbid document associated with DISC.
And we all know that his career intersects and interweaves with this Nazi aspect.
Yes.
And he, there are trips, when they investigated Garrison, saw trips of Is going to Argentina.
Yes.
So when he grabs Shaw, in fact, he may not be grabbing the person who's conspiring to assassinate President Kennedy, but he's grabbing someone who's in that whole system.
Right, right, right.
Absolutely, absolutely.
You have to put yourself in Garrison's shoes.
Why does he go after Shaw?
I think Garrison was enough of an attorney, and I think the take that Oliver Stone gives in his movie.
Is absolutely spot on.
Because in the movie, Mr. X, who turns out to be Fletcher Prati, Mr. X, played by Donald Sutherland, is telling Garrison that you've got to go back and go through with this trial and kick up such a storm through the trial and make so much available in the trial that this whole thing won't go away.
And that's exactly what I think Garrison does.
Garrison knows that he's got enough of a case.
To bring an indictment through a grand jury against Shaw.
But he also knows getting a conviction is probably not in the cards.
Right.
But he goes ahead with it anyway to create this show and get all of these facts out there.
Because Shaw, if you look at all the stuff Garrison is uncovering, we've got NASA, Riley Coffee Houses, Guy Bannister, David Ferry, Lee Harvey Oswald.
You've got all of this strange stuff that he uncovers.
He's got, you know, white Russians in Dallas and.
All these churches and all of this Argentina, and what do you, as a district attorney, uncovering all of these bizarre connections, do you go to trial with that?
Well, you'd be, you know, no jury is going to take any of that seriously, given the state of information at that time.
So, the most prosecutable person that he has in that whole nest of stuff that he's uncovered is Clay Shaw.
And that's what I think happens.
All that other stuff that he's uncovered, he knows good and well, is pointing to something, but he can't bring that to trial because the judge and the jury are simply going to laugh at him because it's all dot connecting.
It's not dot connecting that is substantive enough at that point in time to bring to a jury trial.
So that's what I think happens there.
But he knows all of this.
It's absolutely clear that he knows all of this.
Yeah.
He's in a very, very bad position once he starts this whole process because it's kind of like this whole impeachment thing now.
You've started a sham process and it's got to either go forward or you end up with egg on your face.
Well, in Garrison's case, it's not a sham process, but in his case, all of the evidence is pointing to so many bizarre connections that people are not going to believe.
I mean, stop and consider.
He knows that there is some sort of Connection to this post war fascist outfit that I talk about.
But imagine bringing that out in 1967 to an American jury.
Nazis?
Right.
Killing the president?
Yeah.
French OAS officers?
Mafia?
You know, all of this stuff.
He's got to bring it out in such a way that he targets an individual who looks.
Clean enough and clearly has these connections that those connections themselves won't go away.
And in that, he was entirely successful, even though he didn't get the conviction.
Yes.
Stop and think where would we be now without the garrison investigation?
Absolutely.
There you go.
There you go.
The Centro Mondiale Commerciale, which Shaw was on the board of and on the board of.
Of Permandex, those two are sister organizations.
His connection with that suggests that the faction that Shaw is a part of is connected directly to that fascist.
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Okay, let's go back to what I said earlier, and I'm glad you brought that back up because there's another connection here because you mentioned Switzerland and Permandex.
Permandex, if you look at the structure of the company, Permandex is, so to speak, the holding company, and the World Trade Centers or Central Mondiale Commercial, the Italian version of it, are like the local franchises for the holding company.
Now, it is true that a significant portion of it is based in Switzerland.
I'd love to get a hold of some of the stock certificates for this thing and find out exactly who all these people were that were associated with it.
But Switzerland, Switzerland, and the relationship that I talked about earlier, that my suspicion now is that this is also part of that hidden system of finance.
This is their brown shirts corporation.
This is the muscle behind this whole hidden system.
Well, who's in Switzerland at this time as one of the major bankers for the Nazis?
A little fellow I talked about in the 9 11 book by the name of Gino, Francois Gino.
Yes, yes.
And who was he the banker for?
Osama bin Laden.
Right, right, incredible.
And he's certainly there in Switzerland at the time of Permindex.
That's a deep dark network.
That's a deep dark network.
My guess is, and I'm speculating here, please understand that, but my guess is dig long enough and hard enough, you're going to find some association between Permandex and Francois Genoux.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Why?
Why?
Because the Torbett document mentions other prominent fascists involved with it.
Ferenc Nagy.
Yes.
And so on.
Now, it's interesting about Nagy because one of the letters that comes out of the Bloomfield papers is him appealing to the CIA saying, Can't we just do a front company?
And this is in 1949.
Can't we do a front company for you guys here in Italy?
And in fact, the Italian government eventually kicks Centro Commerciale out.
So they know what they're up to.
They've seen it before with Operation Gladio, et cetera.
Well, they've seen it with Operation Gladio.
Besides that, they want in on the action for themselves.
Can you say Licio Gelli and Logai Propaganda Due and Michaela Sendona and so on and so forth?
With the Italians, they know how the game is played, you know.