Douglas Caddy asserts JFK was murdered in 1963 because he threatened Majestic 12's exclusive access to alien technology via National Security Action Memorandum 271. Caddy details his Watergate testimony, where he refused $40 trillion in alleged hush money from Nixon's circle, and links Howard Hunt's deathbed confession to JFK's planned Soviet UFO disclosures. The narrative expands to Billy Sales' claims of LBJ's involvement in assassinations and connects missing Pentagon funds to a secret space program funded by drug trafficking, suggesting both presidents fell due to their challenges against this breakaway civilization controlling extraterrestrial secrets. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
Time
Text
JFK UFO Conspiracy Revealed00:04:12
Hi, this is Dark Journalist.
Today I have an exciting episode for you that will stay in your memory for a long time.
We have the former Watergate attorney and best selling author Douglas Caddy with us.
Now, Douglas has walked through crucial points of American history, sometimes showing up in the very heart of these controversial dramas that helped to shape our times.
Today, Douglas Caddy will reveal for the first time a very important and hidden secret that in 1963, forces in the national security state did conspire to assassinate President Kennedy as a way to guard the secret of the alien presence.
Could there be a more important issue facing us today than a secret group hoarding this knowledge of off world visitors and killing with impunity those who would dare to reveal it?
Has the time arrived for the world to face these powerful truths?
Here we go.
Former Watergate attorney Douglas Caddy.
JFK killed over the alien presence.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covet means for expanding its sphere of influence.
No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed.
What he was doing, starting with his first Action Memorandum 55, he was challenging the authority of the successor to Majestic 12.
This is a government above the government.
You know, as you've probably seen, we make a great effort on this show to thread the links from post World War II secrecy through deep politics, the breakaway civilization, the secret space program, and the ever elusive black budget.
Now, I've made a series of episodes and a documentary on the JFK assassination because I believe it to be a linchpin event to how so much secrecy and corruption became the norm in our society.
The greatest evidence for this is the massive disinformation put out by the mainstream media.
Today, we're going to take a major step towards seeing the real history.
Behind the obfuscations and lies around the truth of the alien presence.
And we're going to do it with a man of history, Douglas Caddy.
So let's get started.
In 1961, when President Eisenhower said in his farewell address that Americans needed to guard against the military industrial complex, it caused a stir that rippled for decades.
Here was a decorated war hero and president warning against elements in the military seeking control deep in the national security state.
When he met President elect Kennedy, he no doubt passed along this warning in greater detail.
There is strong documented evidence that JFK evinced a deep interest in the subject of UFOs.
Which may have come from his talks with Eisenhower.
A loadmaster for Air Force One named Bill Holden later recounted a conversation where Kennedy remarked, I'd like to tell the public about the alien situation, but my hands are tied.
This mindset made JFK deep enemies in the covert breakaway security state that coveted their position as the only group with access to knowledge of the alien presence and reverse engineered technology.
President Truman had originally created this group to study the phenomena, but they had exceeded their mandate and were assuming more.
Finally, in the fall of 1963, JFK made a deal through private channels with Russian leader Nikita Khrushchev to enter into a joint mission to the moon and for space exploration.
This deal was later confirmed by Khrushchev's son, Sergei.
JFK decided the surest way to peace was cooperation in space.
To this end, he instructed the administrator of NASA, James Webb, to institute his policy of a joint space mission with Russia and substantial information sharing.
This National Security Action Memorandum, number 271 was followed by a secret memo to the CIA released under the Freedom of Information Act.
In it, JFK asked the CIA director for classified UFO information and details of high threat cases.
Guy Bannister Was The Handler00:04:51
These memos are dated November 12, 1963, ten days before President Kennedy was assassinated in Texas, where just a year before he had given his famous speech about the U.S. going to the moon.
We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things.
Not because they are easy, but because they are hard.
Douglas, it's a great honor to have you on the show.
We have so many interesting things to cover from your fascinating career, but I wanted to start with this.
How did you first get involved in politics and how old were you when it happened?
Well, Daniel, I got into politics or public affairs at an early age.
I was still in high school.
I was in high school in New Orleans, and my family was very much anti communist and fans of Joe McCarthy.
And there was a rally for Joe McCarthy in Audubon Park.
In New Orleans in 1954, when he was up for being censured by the U.S. Senate.
So I went over to that rally, and the organizers of it, Kent and Phoebe Courtney, asked if I would set up a card table in the French Quarter and collect names on petitions to support Joe McCarthy in his fight against being censured.
So that's what I did.
I set up a table in the opposite St. Louis Cathedral in the French Quarter in New Orleans, and started.
It was very easy to get signatures because Joe McCarthy was Catholic in St. Louis Cathedral.
The people going in and out of there were very sympathetic, you know.
Definitely.
So I got, I collected a large number of signatures and sent them on in.
I think General Bonner Fellows was head of a national organization collecting the signatures.
And Kent Courtney invited me to go to a meeting with him with Guy Bannister.
And we went to Guy Bannister's office, which was just off Canal Street there in New Orleans.
And this is while I was still in high school.
And the subject was the Aaron Cohen Crime Commission in New Orleans, which was to study organized crime in New Orleans.
And Guy Bannister was a former FBI agent, a prominent one.
And so I met him, like I would say, three or four times.
And actually, later on, I appeared at a public rally.
He and I were the speakers at a public rally on Free Enterprise, of all things.
But it was kind of ironic because this was about 1955.
Within a five minute walk of his office there in New Orleans was where Lee Harvey Oswald was going to high school.
Interesting.
He and his mother lived on Exchange Place in the French Quarter.
He was going to high school and I was going to another high school.
Our paths never crossed, but this was 1955 and say 1963.
That's when the Kennedy assassination took place.
And prior to that, Guy Bannister and Lee Harvey Oswald, it's been alleged, had a relationship where Bannister was a handler of Lee Harvey Oswald.
That was in New Orleans.
And it's never been, Garrison and his investigation got into this, but I don't think it's ever been completely fleshed out as to exactly what the parameters of that relationship were.
Right.
Whether he was a handler or assisting or monitoring or whatever.
But it's just kind of ironic that in 1955, all three of us, and I came later on to represent Howard Hunt, who was a figure in the Kennedy assassination.
So All three of us were within walking distance at that time, and of course, none of us knew what the future held.
That's fascinating.
You know, one quick thing to mention here is that Guy Bannister was notoriously anti communist, and of course, Oswald is often portrayed as pro communist.
So the fact that Oswald was working for Bannister wouldn't ordinarily make sense unless his left wing Marxist persona was just a cover for other things that he was up to.
Exactly.
My personal conclusion is that Bannister was his handler.
But it's one of those things.
With the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, we'll never exactly know what the truth was.
And when Guy Bannister died, which was not too long, several years after the Kennedy assassination, all his files were burned.
Kent Courtney was there when his wife was burning his files.
That was his desire.
So, who knows what were in Guy Bannister's files that went up in flames.
Oh, yeah.
But in 1956, I was graduated from high school.
I chose to go to the School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University.
Handling Governor Charles Edison00:07:41
And I enrolled there.
And shortly thereafter, I was in contact with Human Events, which was and is a conservative newsletter.
And they offered me a working scholarship.
Through the Intercollegiate Society of Individualists, where I would work part time for them while I was going to school at the School of Foreign Service.
And I did that starting in 1957, and I met a friend there, also from Texas, who was also a scholarship holder named David Franke.
And we decided that time that there was no conservative movement in those days.
It was liberalism reigned supreme.
We felt there was a conservative movement that could be organized out there.
So, we thought we'd start with the students.
So, we formed a, in 1958, we formed the National Student Committee for the Loyalty Oath, which was to keep the loyalty oath in the National Defense Education Act.
And actually, it was Senator Kennedy who wanted to remove the loyalty oath.
Oh, isn't that interesting?
So, we were at odds with Senator Kennedy at that point.
But what it did was it put us in contact with about 20 students around the country through the publicity and everything that we were ready to take the next step in 1959, which was to form.
Youth for Goldwater for vice president.
Now we knew Nixon was going to be the nominee in 1960, so it didn't make any sense to form Youth for Goldwater for president.
In fact, he would oppose that.
So we formed it for vice president, and that put us in touch with any number of additional students.
So we had probably about 70 to 100 students around the country, young people, actually some who were not students, but young people who were interested in conservatism.
And when I was graduated from Georgetown School of Foreign Service in 1960, I went to work in New York City for Marvin Liebman Associates, which had a number of conservative clients.
My assignment was to handle the account with Governor Charles Edison.
Charles Edison was the chairman of the board of McGraw Edison Company.
He was a son of Thomas Edison.
He was former governor of New Jersey and former undersecretary of the Navy under President Roosevelt.
And he lived just a few blocks from our office on Lexington Avenue in the towers of the Waldorf Astoria.
So I would meet with him frequently.
My title was Executive Director of the Committee for Public Affairs for the McGraw Edison Company, and we would decide what public affairs programs we would implement.
He lived in the towers of the Waldorf, as I mentioned, and his neighbors above him were General Douglas MacArthur and Herbert Hoover.
Unbelievable.
And on occasion they would play bridge together.
This was obviously another era, you know, but those were two giants, all three giants in American history.
But it was Marvin Liebman's idea.
He said, Well, you have this Youth for Goldwater organization, and I've talked with Governor Edison, and he's willing to underwrite the cost of opening an office at the Tick Congress Hotel in Chicago at the Republican convention in 1960, an office for youth for Goldwater for vice president.
And so that's what we did.
Now, this would be the 1960 Republican National Convention, and history was really starting to change there.
And actually, out of that convention was where Goldwater.
Became nationally prominent.
Up until then, you know, he was not, he was just on the verge of becoming prominent.
And he became the nominee in 1964.
64, right.
But the seeds were sown at that meeting, at that convention.
He came to our room, our little room that we had, the headquarters room for youth for Gowater for vice president at the Pitt Congress Hotel before the convention ended.
And he said, Listen, young people, you should not let this organization die with this convention.
You should make it permanent.
And William F. Buckley was there.
And I had written for National Review when I was at undergraduate Georgetown.
I knew Buckley personally.
We were close friends.
And in fact, my David Frank, who helped me found these different organizations, went to work for National Review the same time I went to work for Charles Edison, so to speak.
And Buckley was a leading conservative voice, right?
He was Mr. Conservative.
Mr. Conservative, right.
And so he said, Well, I volunteer our family mansion.
And what it is, it's a huge place there in Gray Elm, Connecticut, if you want to use that for the founding of your organization.
And so The convention was over.
Goldwater had made a tremendous impact.
He made a speech that electrified the convention and solidified in the minds of many that he was going to be the conservative leader in the future.
And so I went back and I put out, sent a letter to those young people that we had the names and addresses of for an interim committee for the creation of a national youth organization.
And so we all met at Great Elm in Sharon, Connecticut in September of 1960.
And we formed Young Americans for Freedom.
Our chairman was Robert Schuckman, who was in Yale Law School, a brilliant person.
We had on our board Howard Phillips, who was president of the student body at Harvard University.
And we had any number of prominent students around the country.
And so we formed Young Americans for Freedom.
And we decided, Marvin Liebman was a public relations genius.
I learned so much from him.
But he said, well, what we really need is to have a rally.
We should have a rally here.
We organized a rally that was held in March of 1961, just after the inauguration at the Manhattan Center in New York City.
And we had 3,000 people on this side.
That was as many as could be held in the Manhattan Center on 34th Street, and 3,500 people on the outside.
We know this to be true because the New York Times had an article on the front page the next day.
They couldn't believe that these conservatives had come from here, there, and everywhere.
And held this incredible rally.
So the movement was catching fire.
Yeah, and we had all these prominent speakers, and that was really the birth of the mass conservative movement.
The next year, we held a rally at Madison Square Garden.
We filled Madison Square Garden.
It feels like there was a lot of idealism in the founding of this movement.
Yeah, it was.
It was really young people who were idealistic, basically.
That's what it was.
So after this point, you went into military service.
I volunteered.
I joined the National Guard, is what I did.
In those days, They had six months active duty and seven and a half years in reserve.
And so I didn't resign.
I took leave of absence as executive director of Young Americans for Freedom and went into the Army and spent the whole six months at Port Jackson in South Carolina, which actually I enjoyed.
It was beautiful down there.
And when I got out, I decided, well, I'd been thinking about going to law school.
And so I enrolled in 1962 at New York University.
In the evening division.
In the daytime, I was offered a job by Lieutenant Governor Malcolm Wilson, who was a conservative.
He was a well known conservative in the state legislature before he became lieutenant governor.
Alice Widener And Rockefeller00:05:22
And he had an office on the fifth floor in the private office that Governor Rockefeller had at 22 West 55th Street.
So I joined Governor Malcolm Wilson's staff.
We were on the fifth floor, and the other floors were occupied by Governor Rockefeller's staff.
There were only about 30 people in the townhouse operation.
A government building that was privately owned.
Did you get to meet Governor Rockefeller?
Oh, yes, oh, yes, I met him, uh huh.
And had several conversations with him.
Now, something momentous happened while you were working there.
Can you tell us about it?
One of the extraordinary things that happened while I was there was I received a phone call on November 22nd, 1963, and it was from a friend of mine who was in that, my close friend John Holmes.
A law school student who worked on Wall Street.
He worked for an investment firm down there, and he just said, Doug, President Kennedy has been assassinated.
Gotta go, and he hung up.
So I walked to Lieutenant Governor Wilson's office, which was really just a minute away, basically, about 30 feet away, and I said, Lieutenant Governor Wilson, I just got a call that John Kennedy, President Kennedy, has been assassinated.
He said, Go downstairs and check in the press room.
So I rode from the fifth floor to the first floor, and there was a small press room there.
The press officer was Carl Spadd.
For Governor Rockefeller, but he was at lunch, and so his receptionist was there.
I walked in and said, Governor, that said, President Kennedy has been assassinated.
And she went, What are you talking about?
But she did point to a closet, and I went over there and opened up.
That was their telex machine.
Those were the days where a telex machine, it was like it kept rolling out the news constantly.
When there was something big, the bells would ring.
And of course, the bells were endlessly ringing with the assassination of Kennedy.
At that point, the receptionist realized.
She immediately reached for the phone and called Carl Spad, who was at lunch, to come back.
But what I did was I wandered through the townhouse alerting people.
And so that was really the first time that the Rockefeller inner sanctum had knowledge of JFK's assassination.
Interesting.
They were wondering why this fellow up on the fifth floor was the first person to learn about it.
The only reason I mentioned that because I surfaced years later in Watergate and these same people were around.
Said, my gosh, here's this guy popping up again, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you do seem to walk into history at these important points.
Well, I was working in Governor Rockefeller's office for Lieutenant Governor Wilson and going to law school.
I lived in the residence of Alice Widener, who was a journalist.
She was a prominent conservative journalist.
She was a columnist.
Her column was carried in about 25 newspapers.
But she was an extraordinary person.
We lived at 520 East 72nd Street, exactly right where the 72nd Street ends at the East River.
And she lived on the 21st floor.
She traveled a lot.
And so she asked that I look after her co op, is what it was.
And it was a large co op.
And the floor above was where Frank Sinatra had his place.
He was seldom there, but I did go up and use his terrace at times to sunbathe.
I thought if he ever walked in and I was sunbathing on his terrace, I'd probably have his people toss me off the roof or something.
But the view was worth it, right?
Oh, the view from there was on the East River.
You had the skyline.
It was like out of a movie.
And at one time, I held a reception there for Lieutenant Governor Wilson, and he came there and he said, My goodness, if I lived here, I'd never leave.
I would just stay here all the time.
He had that unique view from it.
Can you tell me a little more about Alice Widener?
Alice Widener was actually the widow of Sergei Berezovsky, who escaped the Communist Revolution in Russia by playing in the Whorehouse.
He played the piano in the Whorehouses.
Working his way to the border.
And he escaped and he came to New York City.
And during the Depression, he was the conductor for the NBC Radio Orchestra.
And so they had a very fine life during the Depression.
They lived on Park Avenue, and Alice told me that all their friends who had become destitute, so to speak, would come over for dinner every night at their place.
But when he had passed away, and she had married a Widener, And who I think had also passed away or got a divorce.
But she became a member of the Communist Party upon the urging of J. Edgar Hoover.
And she enrolled as Alice Berezovsky, the widow of Sergei Berezovsky, the famous Russian conductor.
And she gave money and so forth.
And she would attend the inner sanctum meetings of the Communist Party.
And I would sit there when she and J. Edgar Hoover would talk about these things, you know.
So she was really an infiltrator.
Yes, she was, she was, but she was a dedicated patriotic American.
Quid Pro Quo At United Foods00:06:29
Yes, right.
But she managed, she had that flair to carry it off.
I'm not sure I could have carried it off, but she had that flair to carry it off.
And she wrote for Barron's magazine, Barron's, the financial weekly Barron's.
Oh, sure.
And so Robert Blyberg, who was the editor, was, he would come like twice a week for dinner.
She was a superb cook.
And so the three of us, and maybe an additional guest, James Dines of the Dines newsletter, would be there.
And so it was quite an education.
I was still in.
Law school to hear these people talk.
They were experienced in world affairs, and I just learned an awful lot.
Oh, definitely.
Yeah.
So then law school was over, and you started working with a new company.
After I was graduated from law school, I had an offer from Geno Foods Corporation to go to work for Geno Foods.
It was the world's largest food manufacturer at that time Maxwell House Coffee, Kool Aid, Post Cereals, all sorts of things which everybody would even recognize today.
Their headquarters was in White Plains, New York.
So I was a reverse commuter.
At that time, I left and had my own apartment, and I commuted by train from Manhattan to White Plains every day, a reverse commuter.
After about a year and a half or two years at the headquarters, General Foods' officers said, Well, we want you to go to Washington and open.
We don't have our own office in Washington.
We use a public relations firm, the Robert Mullen Company, and we would like you to open an office there.
But first, you would be our lobbyist, you'd be a Washington representative.
For the first year, we would like you to operate out of the Robert Mullen Company, which was located in the Kiplinger building on 8th Street there in Washington.
And so I moved to Washington and I became their Washington representative, but located within the Mullen Company.
This was in the latter part of 1969.
And just about a few months later, Howard Hunt came on the staff of the Robert Mullen Company.
And Howard Hunt was a major CIA agent.
He was a major CIA agent.
But he was supposed to be retired and coming to the firm to work there in some other capacity.
Right.
But even, I mean, that is really literally true.
But when you say retired, you wonder whether these agents ever retire, basically.
Yeah, so it's retired in quotes.
And whether he ever really retired because his later activities make you wonder whether he maybe was reactivated or something.
Who knows?
Yes.
So the idea is he was being placed there somehow.
Yeah, he was being placed there by Richard Helms, you know.
And I didn't know at the time, Jenna Foods never told me, and I didn't know until.
Senator Howard Baker put out his supplement to the Senate Watergate Committee report that the Mullen Company was actually a CIA front.
It had been actually incorporated by the CIA in 1959.
And it had offices all around the world, but in the headquarters it just had six people, and two of whom were myself working for General Foods.
I was always a General Foods employee, and Howard Hunt.
And the CIA, of course, didn't advertise that they were behind General Foods.
No, no, but I later concluded that Geno Foods, looking back, I had to put the puzzle together that Geno Foods had a close relationship with the CIA because a friend of mine who was with United Food Company, well, he implied that.
He represented United Food Company, which was a CIA, very close to the CIA, too.
So the pieces fall into place there.
Yeah, so who knows how many corporations were actually working with the CIA in those days.
I think there was a quid pro quo.
I think the CIA had.
For instance, General Foods, let's just say as a hypothetical, I mean, if it was a coffee manufacturer, would be knowing the political ramifications of what was going on, where coffee was being raised in South America, would be very helpful in ordering coffee beans and so forth and so on.
So I think there was a trade off there of exchange of information.
Oh, yeah.
But so I started, Howard Hunt and I started talking, and it turned out that Room F. Buckley was the Godfather to Howard Hunt's four children.
And of course, I knew Buckley from, as I indicated earlier, from years before, even when I was at Georgetown.
And we started talking, and then he said, Well, of course, I didn't know this, but he said, Of course, no, Bill Buckley was underneath me as a CI agent in Mexico City.
Oh, wow.
What?
And I did not know that before, you know.
And he said, Yes, he worked for about several years, I think about two years in New Mexico City, and then he left and went back to write his book.
God and Man at Yale, which was a bestseller.
That's a famous book.
Famous book.
And then he found a national review.
He even ran for mayor of New York.
He ran for mayor of New York.
Yes, he did.
He made an impact and he was on his way to being a national.
Then he started his television show and he became a national figure.
Right.
And so Robert Mullen approached Howard Hunt and myself about the end of 19.
In the mid 1970s, and said, I would like to retire, and will you two like to buy my company?
And if you would, you can pay for it out of the proceeds of the profits over the years.
You don't have to come up with the upfront money.
So this came out of the blue, and so Howard said, Well, let me think about it.
And I wanted to think about it.
And we had these various meetings with Mullen, maybe three or four.
And in the end, he just suddenly announced that he was selling his company to Robert Bennett.
Who was a son of Senator Bennett of Utah, both of whom were Mormons.
And so at that time, I left Juno Foods and went with a law firm.
And Hunt stayed after Robert Bennett took over the company.
And Hunt became a vice president of the company.
But when I went with a law firm, Gawling, Powell, and Kilcullen was the name of the law firm.
Howard Hunt was my first client.
George Webster CIA Work Exposed00:14:55
Okay.
And he had.
And this was like for PR stuff because he was an author.
Yes, he was an author.
He asked me to write letters to publishers on two books they had underway, you know.
I think in all, he probably had about 30 books under his belt before he passed away.
Right.
So you weren't representing him for CIA related work.
It was more about him and his personal PR promotion and business stuff.
So it was kind of contractual.
Oh, exactly.
At that point, I still didn't even know that the Mullen Company was a CIA front.
Right, exactly.
And in about April, early April 1972, Hunt said, He said, I would like you to join me and Lawrence Houston for cocktails at a restaurant on the Maryland side of the Potomac River.
We would like to discuss something with you.
This was early April 1972.
And so I went there not knowing the purpose of the meeting.
And the purpose of the meeting was to sound me out whether I wanted to join the CIA.
I don't know why they didn't sound me out before to say, would you like to discuss this?
But it came as a surprise.
And they said, And Lawrence Houston said, if you did, we would like you to open a hotel on the seashore in Nicaragua, a luxurious hotel, and we would lure the Sandinista leadership there and get videos of them and learn how to compromise them.
Standard procedure.
So they could be blackmailed, except so forth and so on.
Yeah.
And so in my own mind, I thought, well, this is probably something that I don't want to do, but I probably couldn't do anyway.
And so I just said, let me think about it, okay?
And so.
That's how that meeting ended.
But it was just about a week later that John Kilcullen, one of the partners of the law firm, called me in and said, I got a call from my close friend George Webster, who's chairman of the Lawyers Committee for the reelection of the president.
And he would like us to volunteer a lawyer to work for the Lawyers Committee for the reelection of the president.
And you are being volunteered.
Oh, boy.
So he said, call George Webster and get your assignment.
It was not going to be full time, it would be now and then or part time volunteer work.
So I called George Webster and he said, Report to John Dean in the White House.
Wow.
Wow.
I said, Well, that's starting out at the top.
John Dean was the counsel to the president.
Yes.
And so I met with John Dean and signed on.
And this is in, I have his appointment to diary and it showed on April 25th was when I met with him and George Webster met with him and I got my first assignment.
It was really ordinary.
Campaign legal work.
It was going and doing research on who the contributors were to the other two competing, to who might be the possible candidate against Nixon among the Democrats and so forth.
So, McGovern, Shriver, Muskie, Muskie, right.
About three or four.
And at that time, you would just go to Capitol Hill and walk into an office and you can write this information down.
It was nothing like the world today where everything is computerized and so forth.
The last assignment I got, which was Friday before Watergate broke from John Dean's office, was to go to Jack Anderson's office.
Jack Anderson was a prominent newspaper columnist, he was a successor to Drew Pearson.
And they.
He's the reporter that broke all of the initial stories of the CIA working with the mafia and the anti Castro Cubans in the 70s.
So he became part of that big reinvestigate the JFK assassination movement.
Oh, yes.
I mean, Jack Anderson was a superb investigative reporter.
He was on top of so many things.
He was a Mormon.
Oh, another one.
Had strong beliefs.
And so I went there, and that was Friday.
And on Saturday morning, June 17th, 1972.
I was awakened shortly after three by a phone call.
I lived about a mile from the White House and about a mile from Watergate, as it worked out.
It was Howard Hunt, and he was calling me saying, He said he was in his office at the White House.
He wanted to come immediately to see me about a very important matter, and could I receive him?
And I said, Certainly, come ahead.
Where I lived, you had to be admitted.
There was a clerk at the desk.
At all times.
And so I called down and informed him that Mr. Hunt was coming to see me.
And so Hunt showed up about 3 35 a.m. on June 17th and explained to me that sometime after midnight, shortly after midnight, five burglars had been arrested at Watergate.
These were McCord and the four Cuban Americans.
And that he explained to me what had happened essentially, but in very limited form, put it that way.
And he explained how he and Gordon and Liddy were not arrested.
They were in the hotel next door.
And so they were alerted by Alfred Baldwin, who was across the street in Howard Johnson, who saw the arrest take place.
He could look out his window and see the arrest taking place across the street inside the Democratic National Committee.
So he alerted Hunt and Liddy and they escaped, you might say.
And so Hunt called Liddy, whom I had met one time before, actually, John Dean, or actually, George Webster.
Had assigned me to do additional work for Gordon Liddy in addition to John Dean, campaign research work, legal work.
So I had met Gordon Liddy before.
And so Howard Hunt called him and said, Well, I'm at Doug's place.
And he handed the phone to me.
And Gordon Liddy said, Well, I'd like you to retain you as my attorney in this matter also.
And both Howard and I would like you to retain you to represent those who have been arrested.
And so I said, Well, you know, we're.
I worked for a law firm that specializes in labor law.
We do no criminal law at all.
Right.
So I said, give me time to talk with one of my partners.
I'll call him right now and see, get this matter straightened out.
So while Howard was there, I called Robert Scott, whom Howard knew because he had worked on Howard's legal problems before.
And he was the only partner that was in town.
One was in Italy and one was on the Eastern Shore.
And actually, it was good that I reached Robert Scott because he knew.
Howard.
And I explained to him, and the first thing that Robert Scott said after I explained to him, he said, They must have been set up.
That was his reaction.
They must have been set up.
He said, Stay there.
I've got to call my nephew.
And then he called back about 20 minutes later and said, I've lined up someone to be the criminal lawyer to assist you in this matter.
Because we were not, as I mentioned, we were not a criminal law firm.
And so it was arranged that I would meet the criminal lawyer, who was a friend of Robert Scott's, at about 8 a.m. To find the five arrested.
We ultimately found them at a police substation not far from the White House.
And we had a brief conversation with them.
And then we went back to the court for the formal arraignment.
And what we did not know and which came out later on was that Carl Schaffler was the arresting officer.
He's a very key person in this whole drama in all of Watergate.
And we did not know, but he had called the Washington Post shortly after the arrest.
To alert them of what had taken place.
Now, just to clarify, you believe he was deep throat.
I do believe, and I'll explain later on why he is deep throat.
Okay.
And why it was never brought out that he was deep throat.
He had such power to prevent that from coming out.
That's why it never came out.
I see.
Officially.
So when I went back for the arraignment, not only did the Washington Post reporters there, Bob Woodward was there.
But also, the prosecutors knew from the phone call what had transpired.
And so I walked into the arraignment.
They knew a lot more than I did, basically.
And so it was sort of an awkward situation.
But the bill was not granted for the five individuals.
But I did have my meeting there whereby it's in All the President's Men in the book and in the movie whereby Woodward sits behind me and stares into my shoulder.
Yes.
And who is this?
I was a bad guy because I was representing these guys, you know?
Right.
But I was in a dilemma.
The dilemma we faced, our intent at the arraignment was to get these people out on bail quietly so that this could, you know.
Right.
So you weren't being given details about the whole arrangement and the setup.
Your job basically was to go in there and get them bailed out.
Get them bailed out, yeah.
And so this.
But I realized once Hannah had told me back when he came to visit me, I realized the ramifications of this.
I realized this could ultimately lead.
To what it did lead to, basically.
It was so serious.
So it was starting to dawn on you just how big it was.
Yeah, starting to dawn on me.
So Woodward really put me on the spot.
The problem I faced was I could not say, I could not bring up the names of Howard Hunt and Gordon Liddy because nobody knew that they existed.
They had escaped.
All they knew that there were these five individuals.
So there was really no way I could answer the questions posed to me by Bob Woodward.
I couldn't very well say.
I had a call from Howard Hunt from the White House, and that's why I'm here, you know.
Exactly.
You know, so I was put in a very awkward situation.
And the arrangement that I had with the criminal attorney was that any questions would be handled by him.
But when Woodward posed this question, he just went like this and pointed to me.
And so there I was, you know.
And so I handled it best I could.
So they put you in a pretty dangerous situation.
Well, not an awkward situation, yeah.
Whereby I could never disclose and did come out for a whole month that Hunt did not come out for a whole month that Hunt and Liddy were suspects, you know, and had been involved.
So I think here we should explain a little more about E. Howard Hunt for a moment.
You know, here he is running a major break in on behalf of forces in the White House, obviously a top player at the CIA, but who was he and what was his relationship with Nixon?
Howard Hunt was in the OSS.
During World War II, his cover for part of the time was this Life magazine.
He was in the Pacific Theater covering MacArthur.
But he actually saw action.
He was parachuted with a small number of OSS agents behind the lines in China, behind the Japanese lines.
And actually, he saw one of his colleagues captured by the Japanese, and the Japanese flayed him alive.
That means they skinned him alive in prison.
And he and the other agents, hidden in the jungle, would hear his screams as he was being flayed alive.
They were trying to force him to.
To disclose what he knew.
And so he had seen action.
He was a patriot.
When the CIA was formed, he went on, he became a CIA agent and became a trusted CIA agent.
In other words, he was at such a point that Richard Helms was a person who put him in the Mullen Company.
Yes.
Richard Helms was the director of the CIA.
That he and Lawrence Houston, who was the counsel, would invite me.
Now, can an ordinary CI agents called up Lawrence Hughes, could have called up the legal counsel and said, I want you to do a friend of mine.
No way.
It takes power to do that, okay?
But Hunt was on the first name basis of all of these, including Alan Dulles.
He ghostwrote Alan Dulles' book, The Craft of Intelligence, which was a bestseller and is still a highly praised reference book on intelligence.
He was a great admirer of the Dulles brothers.
So, how deep were his ties to President Nixon?
Nixon and Howard Hunt had interaction in 1954, personal interaction meetings.
Over the Guatemala.
Remember, we overthrew the government in Guatemala.
So they have a deep, long history.
And Hunt was a CIA agent who essentially was in charge of that.
There were many people killed in that subsequently and so forth.
I mean, we're talking about ordinary citizens.
I mean, that was a violent period down there, that whole period with Nicaragua and Honduras.
There's no question.
Actually, LBJ was quoted by a reporter.
Reporter is saying that the CIA was running a murder incorporated in Latin America at that time.
So, take us back to the events of that strange scene in the courthouse when Watergate was breaking wide open, and there you were right in the middle of it all.
I met with, I went to the court, I went to the jail because those who were arrested had not been gotten bail.
And I met with James McCord at the DC jail and talked with him.
And James McCord actually was another CIA agent.
In fact, at the arraignment, he talked about his work for the CIA.
Right.
McCord was a CIA electronics and eavesdropping expert, and he had a long intel career.
I was very impressed with Jim McCord.
He was a very intelligent man, very sober man, a very serious man.
And so I went out and visited his wife and explained to him the troubles we were having in getting bail.
Judge Sirica And Kalmbach Questions00:14:57
And she said, Oh, Mr. Caddy, what has happened just is contrary to our basic beliefs.
I can't imagine.
I mean, we're for law and order.
This is just contrary to everything my husband and I believe in.
She just couldn't understand what had occurred.
She was dumbfounded by the whole thing to find out that her husband was involved in this.
Yeah.
But he was a, his job actually with the re election, the Nixon re election committee was a director of security.
But he still had all these strong ties to the CIA.
Oh, yeah.
But on June 28th, and that's just 11 days after Watergate broke, I was in the courthouse and walking down a corridor on this very matter dealing with the case when Donald Campbell, one of the three prosecutors, approached me and handed me a subpoena.
And the subpoena said, You are ordered to appear forthwith before the federal grand jury investigating this matter, you know.
And so forthwith means.
Immediately, right?
Yeah.
So he actually grabbed me by my arm and pulled me right down the hall into the grand jury room.
Uh oh.
And here I was an attorney, I was an officer of the court.
I mean, at a minimum, I should have been.
It's very unusual.
Very unusual.
I should have been given the courtesy at least a couple hours, if not a day.
I mean, it's really unheard of, basically.
And so I appeared before the grand jury.
I appeared before the grand jury a total of six times.
Over the next six weeks.
And at that point in time, the prosecutors had gained information about Hunt and Liddy, and so they wanted to get from my lips the involvement of Hunt and Liddy.
And the questions that they posed to me, based on the advice given to me by five attorneys, once I appeared before the grand jury, violated the attorney client privilege and the Sixth Amendment right to counsel.
So I refused to answer 38 questions.
And on July 12th, Judge Sirica, in open court, it was packed, a packed open court.
The press was there and everybody, it was a.
He said, Mr. Caddy, you either answer these questions or I'm going to hold you and condemn you and jail you.
Not only that, but Mr. Caddy, I believe that you are a principal in this case.
Even though you were not present at the break in, I believe.
You might not have been present at the break, and I believe that you are a principal in this case.
And he was accusing me in open court of being a criminal, basically.
Amazing.
So he's trying to intimidate you.
Well, I was aghast.
I turned to my partner who was standing right next to me and said, What is this?
And it was a very vicious thing for him to do without any evidence or anything like that.
I have the transcript whereby he did that.
And later on, I'll discuss Judge Sirica because.
There's a big story behind Judge Sirica, okay?
Okay.
But that night, I met with my five attorneys, three of whom were former assistant U.S. attorneys themselves who were skilled in this area.
And they said, No, you cannot answer these 38 questions.
You've got to protect your clients.
And so I went before the grand jury on the next day, July 13th.
This was still less than a month after Watergate broke.
And I refused to answer the questions.
And so I immediately was hauled before Judge Sripka and he read a contempt citation and ordered me to jail.
And so I was escorted by a U.S. Marshal, escorted in quotes.
Oh, yeah.
In quotes.
I was escorted to jail downstairs in the courthouse.
And meanwhile, my attorneys filed an appeal with the U.S. Court of Appeals asking that I be released, pending a formal hearing by the U.S. Court of Appeals on this matter.
How long did they keep you?
They kept me for about four to five hours downstairs.
These were all prisoners who were awaiting trials upstairs.
So it was an eye opener.
I'd actually never been in jail before.
So it was, the whole thing was an interesting experience.
Oh, yeah.
Well, you show up to represent these people and they wind up grabbing you.
All this happened in less than a month.
I mean, I'm just walking down the street.
It's like somebody dropped a safe from the 12th floor on top of me.
Yes.
Here I'm in the middle of this whole thing and just out of nowhere.
And so the Court of Appeals released me pending their hearing.
There was a hearing and they reaffirmed Judge Sirica's opinion that I should have to testify.
And at that point, my five attorneys said, Well, go ahead and testify.
We feel that we have.
Built a strong enough case of what they've done to you, abusing the attorney client privilege and the Sixth Amendment right to counsel and so forth, and violating all these questions that on appeal, this case is going to be overturned if these people are convicted.
They feel that the government had tainted its case early on.
And the government later on came to believe that too.
It came back to haunt them, but they were saved at the last moment, as I'll explain later on.
And so on July 19th, this is just over a month after Watergate broke, I went back before the grand jury and answered all 38 questions.
Now, what is important here is that right at that time, there are discussions in the Oval Office between Nixon and Ehrlichman about me.
They're saying, they're discussing, Ehrlichman is saying to Nixon, well, there's this fellow caddy, they call him a fellow, this fellow caddy is going back before the grand jury today and he'll be asked all these questions.
And Nixon says, Well, if he's asked those questions, that will bring Hunter Liddy into it.
And he said, Yes, that'll bring Hunter Liddy into the picture, obviously.
He said, Are there any other problems?
And Erlingman says, Well, the only other problem I can think of is that this fellow caddy is representing the Secretary of Chuck, Chuck Colson, in a divorce action.
But that's as close to the White House as it gets.
And Nixon said, Well, that's okay.
That's not going to affect us at all.
Yeah.
But what Nixon did not know was that.
I had been working for John Dean, as I explained before, starting on April 25th, right down the hall from the Oval Office, where I met twice with John Dean and then got my assignments and also dealt with Dave Wilson, his assistant.
And Dean had kept this from Nixon.
So it sounds like Dean was playing his own game with this, but what else did he not tell Nixon?
He also kept from Nixon that over the 4th of July weekend, I was approached by a caller, a telephone caller.
This is before the 4th of July, on the eve of the 4th of July, by someone who identified himself as first as Robert Kane and later on as Mr. Rivers.
And he wanted me to pass hush money to the defendants, to the arrested defendants.
I see.
And I said, Well, there's so many defendants in this case.
I mean, I had to think, Who are we talking about?
He said, That's a good question.
I have to get back to you on that.
And so.
He got back in touch with John Dean and with Herbert Kalmbach, who was Nixon's lawyer, and called me back and said, All those individuals, everyone.
Well, I went immediately and talked with the partners in my law firm, my managing partner, Jerome Powell, and he said, Well, if this fellow, whoever is calling you about this matter, we don't know who it is, we don't know what his motivation is, we don't know behind him.
If he has anything legitimate to discuss, have him come to the law firm to discuss.
This is something you cannot discuss over the phone or meet with them outside.
So the partners are clearly sensing that this is dangerous and may be a setup or an attempt to pull you guys in further.
But I'm interested in these calls.
What exactly were they saying?
What he said essentially was, we'll deliver, you name the amount of money, and we'll deliver in a laundry bag.
In a laundry bag.
Wow.
Wow.
You know, yeah.
Jerome Post said, you know, we don't know who this guy is.
We don't know where he's coming from.
It could be anyone, basically.
You mean, think about it.
It could be a setup, you know.
Yeah.
It could be the Washington Post reporter, or who knows who it could be, you know.
And so I set it up where he would phone back on July 4th on the holiday, and I would give him an answer.
And so.
Robert Scott was in my office when he called back.
Jerome Paul wanted a partner there to verify what I said to this fellow to make sure we had backup to what I said to him.
And so when he called, I said, Look, I don't know who you are or what you're talking about, but I don't want anything to do with you.
I don't want anything more.
I don't want to hear anything else.
And this is goodbye.
And all I heard was, Oh, he's so like he was strangling, you know.
And so that was, but later on, it did come out.
I'm jumping ahead with the whole story, but later on, When the cover was exposed, this was Anthony Ulasowicz who was calling me.
He was a former, he was a retired New York City police detective who was working for John Dean and various people in the White House, had been doing it for several years.
He investigated Chappaquiddick, for instance, for the White House.
And so he was acting upon the instructions of John Dean and Herbert Kalmbach.
Okay.
And so he testified later on, as did Herbert Kalmbach, that I had refused to accept.
This hush money.
So, this is Nixon's team trying to use you to pay off the burglars as a way to keep them quiet about their connections.
Keep them quiet, right.
The main thing I think in their mind in the White House was we've got to get past the election.
The election was in November, and this June and July, right?
That's pretty early.
Some months to get past that election, you know?
Yeah.
So, you said no.
I said no, and what happened was I went back.
I went back before the grand jury, you know, after I've been held in contempt of court, you know, and the Court of Appeals ordered me to testify, and I did.
I went back on July 19th after the Court of Appeals that upheld Judge Sirica, they upheld it on July 18th.
And I answered the questions.
And then there was a way something was phrased that allowed me to talk about these mysterious phone calls that I had received.
So I decided that this was the time to do this.
I wanted this on the record.
So I said, I said, I started receiving all these mysterious phone calls, and it's in the grand jury transcript.
I got about a minute and a half into that when Seymour Glanzer said, Well, and he changed to another subject.
In other words, they didn't want to hear about it.
And if you read the Oval Office tapes just about that time, Nixon is talking sometime with Erdrichman and sometime to Haldeman, and they say, Well, John Dean is handling this matter, you know, and that he's dealing with the Justice Department and so forth.
He has everything under control.
And then you read further on, and it's John Dean who is really sending signals to Henry Peterson, who's head of the criminal division in the White House, who in turn is sending the signals to the prosecutors on what you want to hear and what you don't want to hear.
And Henry Peterson is quoted in the Oval Office tapes as saying, We're only going to go so far, we're trying to limit this investigation just to.
Those directly involved.
As an aside here about Dean, just a quick thought on Dean.
Do you feel he was planted in the administration to help set up Nixon?
No, I don't.
That has never occurred to me.
All right.
My immediate impression with John Dean the first time I met him was he exuded ambition.
Uh huh.
Of course, his book is Blind Ambition, but he was the most ambitious person I've ever met in my life.
I mean, it was just so apparent.
He had higher aspirations.
Maybe he wanted to be on the Supreme Court.
Who knows what his goals were.
I see.
But it was uncomfortable working around him.
I mean, dealing with a person like that.
I mean, I really didn't feel like it was a person I could ever trust, you know.
But he was counsel to the president.
Yes.
And the big mistake on the part of Nixon and Ehrlichman and Alderman were to let John Dean take this case over and handle it with the Justice Department because John Dean had his own personal agenda.
He'd been involved in the early discussions about what led to the planning of the break in at Watergate.
Right.
In the Attorney General's office when Liddy had presented these plans and so forth.
So he needed to get himself off the hook, essentially.
Yeah, he was deeply involved.
And his girlfriend, Maureen, was a close friend with Heidi Riken, who was the madam who ran the prostitution ring out of the.
Out of the Democratic National Committee.
Right, okay.
Which was, we'll get into it, was one of the purposes why the burglars went in there to get information on this prostitution ring.
And so John Dean had this conflict whereby Maureen, his girlfriend, who he later married like four weeks after, four months after Watergate broke, a conflict of interest because of her relationship with Heidi Reichen, with the madam.
This is all explored, by the way, in a book called A White House Call Girl.
By Phil Stanford, which was published about a year ago.
Okay.
He obtained the diary of Heidi Reichen, which named all those who were clients of the prostitution ring.
And many of them were from the Nixon White House.
Yeah, half of them were, maybe more than a half were from the White House.
And so Jeb Magruder, for example, who was a key person in all of this, was one of those listed in the book.
Watergate Trial Transcripts Tainted00:08:22
So both John Dean and Jeb Magruder were kind of worried about.
What was in what the Democratic National Committee had in its books, put it that way.
I see.
But my point here is that Nixon was operating without this information.
He didn't know on July 19th when he said, Oh, there's nothing to worry about this fellow caddy.
The closest to the White House is that he's representing the wife to Chuck Cosen and divorce action, you know.
So, but if he had known that I was had been working reporting to John Dean with a two minute walk from the Oval Office in John Dean's office in the White House for two months and that I had turned down the hush money.
I mean, his whole attitude towards handing this would entirely change, would entirely change.
He'd realize that I could go before the grand jury and tell everything.
And I think he actually would have decided that's something I should do because I didn't know who the phone calls came from.
In other words, I would just say I got these mysterious phone calls.
Somebody wanted me to pass hush money, but there was no way to trace back who it was or anything like that.
And from his viewpoint and from Erdick Munn and Halbman's viewpoint, this would have stopped any pressure from Howard Hunt.
In quote, blackmailing, or whatever you want to call it, pushing for money to support these individuals while the trial was pending and if they went to prison and so forth.
He could just say, Well, this fellow Caddy who represents Hunt and Liddy before the grand jury talked about this for the grand jury.
So, if Hunt has any complaints about this, he should talk to Caddy, you know?
Yeah.
Then he could have thought it through further.
In other words, I strongly believe that had Nixon known on July 19th, which was about a month after Watergate broke, had the full story, had John Dean not kept it from Nixon, this thing could have been handled entirely different and probably headed off.
It would have been this elaborate.
Cover up that went on involved so many people and all this and that and so forth.
We've never gotten to the oval, to the tapes, you know, the Oval Office tapes.
It could have all been, but John Dean had his personal agenda, such an ambitious man, and he kept this.
And his book, The Nixon Defense, his book came out last year, The Nixon Defense, in which he goes back and he has transcribed all the Oval Office tapes and so forth.
And he discussed the July 19th conversation between Erdogan and Nixon when my name comes up.
And in his commentary, in his own book published last year, he never mentions that I was working out of his office.
He was giving me assignments.
So he's still omitting that.
And that he had directed me to take hush money.
Wow.
So even up to this present time, he has tried to cover this up, you know.
Amazing.
And so I think John Dean and the FBI had an investigative final report two years after Watergate, an internal report analyzing what had happened.
And in the report, they named John Dean as, quote, the mastermind of the cover up.
They say John Dean thwarted their investigation in every way, that John Dean got the inside stuff.
He got the FBI investigative transcripts.
Right.
Without the FBI agents knowing it, he got this from his sources in the Justice Department.
So he knew exactly what was going on.
And also, I think he got, James McCord testified later on before the Senate Watergate Committee that.
That John Dean also got the grand jury transcripts, that Silbert got these to him.
So there was.
One other thing we should say about Dean is how unusual is it for a lawyer to testify against his own client?
I mean, that's just beyond the beyond.
So he was definitely bailing himself out.
He was the first one to run to the prosecutors once this thing fell apart, you know, and Burke got a deal with them.
And of course, Judge Sir Rickel welcomed him too.
In the end, John Dean only served four months.
He got an early release and went on to, and of course, the Washington Post embraced him as the hero, right?
And so forth and so on.
But actually, later on, he has his uh, Nin Kulodny, who wrote a book called Silent Coup, which I'll explain later on, plays a great role in all of this.
He took the deposition of John Dean, and John Dean repudiates his own book, Blind Ambition, saying he didn't write that, and he didn't write that, and he didn't write that.
We're in his book, and his Preface He says he takes credit for everything and he's willing to take a lie detector test that everything in this book is the truth, you know.
But he repudiates it later on because he's been caught in these and then not telling the truth, essentially, you know.
Yeah, it's so interesting.
And Dean is someone with a huge liberal PR machine behind him.
They really should take a deeper look at who they're supporting there.
But let's go back into the timeline of where you were in Watergate and the events that summer.
I had my testimony on July 19th, and about mid September, William Bittman, who was the attorney who succeeded me in representing Howard Hunt, was with a major law firm in Washington, and he came out of the Justice Department.
He was a very famous, prominent Justice Department prosecutor.
He prosecuted Jimmy Hoffa, for example.
So he called my attorney and said, I'd like Doug to come to our office to discuss.
His pending testimony before at the trial.
It was going to be the first Watergate trial, and Hunt and the Cuban Americans and Gordon Liddy and Howard Hunt and McCord and the four Cuban Americans were going to be on trial.
And so we went there.
Urban Lester was my attorney.
He and I went to William Bittman's office, and he said, Well, Doug, the prosecutors are quite worried.
They've tainted their case.
They feel they've tainted their case.
What they did to you.
With Sirica holding you in captive court and these accusations, they realized that, hey, they had probably messed their case up big time.
Right.
What they had done.
And so he said they're quite worried.
And so he said, you're going to be called down by the prosecutor before the trial, which is scheduled for January 1973, to go over your grand jury transcripts.
They will want you to refresh your memory because you're going to testify at the trial.
On behalf of the government, and he said, You're going to testify on behalf of Howard and the defendants, too.
In the end, I testified on behalf of both the prosecution and the defense.
Yeah.
Involuntarily for the prosecution and very heartily for the defense.
But so I went down to read my grand jury transcript, and it was the last one where I found that there had been an.
See, William Bittman felt there would be an alteration in my transcript.
And when he said, What he said to me and Urban Lester, my attorney, he said, When you read your grand jury transcript, see if anything has been altered.
Well, we were seated, and I think both of us nearly fell out of our chairs.
The idea of altering the grand jury transcript, I mean, this is, you know, that the grand jury transcripts can be altered.
I mean, it's just unbelievable.
Big time.
But Benton came out of the Justice Department, which tells you something, doesn't it?
I mean, this is not an original thinking.
Something just came into his mind.
Well, he knew it was a process that was used, obviously.
Yeah, used, used, yeah.
And I mean, it's unbelievable.
It still shocks me to this day.
But I did find an alteration in the final transcript.
And so we went back to Bittman, but my attorney didn't want me to explain exactly what the alteration was.
I did not really understand why he did not want me to do this, but that was his decision.
Yeah, interesting.
So, what point of 1972 are we in now?
My meeting with Bittman was in September.
I would say it was October and November that I reviewed the transcripts in the courthouse.
Dorothy St John Mystery Death00:02:43
And in December was when the death of Dorothy Hunt occurred.
Yes.
This was a month before the Watergate trial.
And Dorothy was E. Howard Hunt's wife.
And you knew her well.
I knew her quite well, yes.
When Watergate broke, she was in Italy with two of her children.
And when she flew back, she came to my office.
And expressed concern about all of this, obviously.
Douglas, can you give us a brief snapshot of who Dorothy was?
Dorothy was a remarkable person.
I mean, just a remarkable person.
And I'm so pleased to learn that St. John Hunt, one of her sons, is writing a book that we publish later this year called Dorothy.
That's right.
And she was a full blooded American Indian, I think from the Blackfoot tribe.
That she was a CIA agent, that's how she met Hunt.
She had done any number of important things on behalf of our country.
Now, she worked for AID, didn't she?
Yeah, but so did Robert Mullen.
Oh, okay.
So that tells you a lot about AID.
Yeah, it was a CIA front.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
Not entirely, but.
You know, it's used as a front.
I see.
It's like being a counselor in an embassy, which is, you know, you're really just a CI agent, but you're tied to as counselor in an embassy abroad, you know?
But Dorothy was a remarkable person.
And so she took this flight to Chicago, and the plane crashed at the Midway Airport.
Ah.
And the remarkable thing about that, there were like 40 FBI agents on the scene within 30 minutes, even less than 30 minutes.
And she was carrying a sum of money, and it's always been a question.
They say $10,000, always been a question of what was she going there, why was she going there, and what that money was all about, and so forth.
Sure.
If you read St. John's first book, which is called, I have it right next to me right here, it's called Bond of Secrecy.
Yes.
Which was published a year ago by Trying Day Press, Trying Day Publishers.
St. John talks about how Dorothy tried to.
Tried to persuade Hunt not to go through with the Watergate break in.
She thought it was a foolish idea, not a wise idea.
She actually threatened to divorce Hunt if he went ahead with the break in.
She was adamant against them doing this.
She was really a very sound thinker, put it that way.
She sounds pretty savvy.
Bond Of Secrecy And Indictments00:15:19
Yeah, very savvy.
And so she's a remarkable person.
And of course, when this occurred, well, one of the persons that exclaimed publicly was Chuck Colson.
He said, Oh, now they've killed Dorothy.
He knew Dorothy.
And he said, Oh, now they've killed Dorothy.
I mean, there's a mystery about her death.
But of course, I went to the funeral, to Dorothy's funeral.
I arrived there, and Hunt was on the other side of the parking lot outside the church for the service.
And he saw me and he walked across the parking lot.
And there were like dozens of FBI scattered here, there, and everywhere, you know, photographs being taken.
And he embraced me and he was crying.
He was crying.
And it was a very, very sad affair.
I'm sure.
And I tried to console him.
But I went to the interment later on, which was at a nearby cemetery.
And it was like a scene out of a movie.
We were on top of a hill, and there was lightning all around us and thundering.
And I mean, it was just something like you would see in a horror movie out of Hollywood, you know?
Oh, yeah.
Clouds.
And it was just really unbelievable.
Something I'll always remember.
But this left Howard Hunt as a broken man.
And so William Bittman advised him to plead guilty.
And so Howard Hunt, when the trial started early in January, pleaded guilty.
And the four Cuban Americans followed him because they were his close friends.
They followed his lead.
I see.
They had worked with him previously for many years on the Bay of Pigs, on farting Castro, really on the Kennedy assassination, and so forth.
So they pleaded guilty also.
As it turns out, I think one reason William Bittman urged Hunt to plead guilty was that William Bittman had accepted the hush money from Gulasowitz that I had turned down.
He got indicted later, right?
When this all came out, he was an undoubted co conspirator.
Oh, okay.
Undoubted co conspirator.
I see.
He took it as a legal fee.
Oh, shady.
And so I think his fear, we don't know what any man's fear is.
Mind.
You cannot, you do not know what a man is thinking, okay?
But I think his fear was that if I were to testify and I were to testify there was an alteration of a grand jury, grand jury's crownship, this would ultimately lead to the disclosure of the hust money, which would lead to his being the recipient of the hust money.
He would be, he would be really pointing the finger at himself right there in open court for being involved in this criminality.
So he convinced Hunt to plead guilty.
Interesting.
Now let's go to this clip of E. Howard Hunt testifying before the Senate Watergate Committee, and a strange fact comes up about how Hunt had forged some cables that attempted to implicate JFK in the assassination of Vietnamese President Diem years after the fact.
I suggest that I might be able to improve upon the record.
And what did you understand him to mean when he said to improve upon the record?
To create, to fabricate cables that could substitute for the missing chronological cables.
Did you in fact fabricate cables for the purpose of indicating the relationship of the Kennedy administration and the assassination at the end?
I did.
And did you show these fabricated cables to Mr. Colson?
I did.
What was his response to the fabricated cables?
He indicated to me that he would be probably getting in touch with a member of the media, of the press, to whom he would show the cables.
Were you in fact put in touch with a member of the media?
I was.
And who was that?
Mr. William Lambert of Life magazine.
Did Mr. Lambert use the information?
Not to my knowledge.
Strange testimony there about the Nixon administration trying to blame the DM assassination on JFK, fabricating cables to, in fact, fake history.
Now, Douglas, how did the Watergate affair wrap up for you?
Well, the trial proceeded.
I. Testified both as a prosecution witness and a defense witness on behalf of McCord and Liddy.
And in front of me on a table was all this equipment.
It was a large table, but all this equipment that had been seized by the police when they arrested the individual.
Also, I guess, across the street at the Howard Johnson Hotel where Alfred Baldwin was monitoring the eavesdropping.
And it filled the whole table.
So I testified, but Silbert made a point with Sirica that I was doing this involuntarily, that I'd been held in contempt of court, and so forth and so on.
So I can't, at that point, Silbert as a prosecutor could relax quite a bit because Hunt had pleaded guilty and the four Cuban Americans had pleaded guilty.
Yeah.
So he felt like any chance of this going higher up, being exposed higher up in the course of the trial would not.
Would be very limited, the chances would be very limited.
It would just be confined to McCord and Liddy.
And so the trial, and so I had lunch twice during the trial with Liddy, and there is a photograph of myself walking bath with Liddy.
It's hard to recognize me now, what I looked like then, but people dressed different in those days and they wore long hair and things like that.
I think we did go to lunch when the jury came back and said they had reached a decision very quickly.
They reached a decision very quickly and they found McCord and Liddy guilty.
They were escorted away by the marshals.
So at this point in time, I thought, well, this is the time for me to write a book.
So I decided to write a book, which eventually was called The Hundred Million Dollar Payoff.
Now, this was a successful book about union corruption at that time.
Even the new president, Gerald Ford, praised your book, putting you back on the map again.
Interestingly enough, You feel differently about unions now.
I strongly support the right of people to organize as unions today, and I support the right of unions to participate in the political process.
I see.
And you spoke at the Republican convention in 1976 also.
So, where did things go from there?
So, I wrote the book, and then about 1979, I said, Well, I've had it with Washington.
I had watched Watergate, you know, it took like three years for Watergate to.
With all the hearings and everything like that, for the trials to take place.
I never testified at the second trial.
And the bottom line was, I was never indicted or listed as an unidentical conspirator.
I was never a defendant in the Democratic Party civil suit, and I was never disciplined by the bar.
Ultimately, what John Sivica accused me of was false, and what Silbert accused me of, Sivica accused me of being a principal, and Silbert, the prosecutor, accused me of being an obstruction of justice.
And those were false accusations.
When it was over, you got a total clean bill of health.
And bill of health.
In some way, you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Right, right.
Yeah.
And you were moved and manipulated into position by Hunt, who didn't really tell you what was actually going on.
To a certain extent, I really didn't understand.
Though Hunt was my closest friend in Washington before Watergate broke, I would say for two or three years, he and Dorothy were my closest friends.
I mean, I had lunch with Hunt countless times.
And I will say this.
So there was a tight bond there.
Tight bond there.
He asked me to write a letter on his behalf when he joined the White House staff, a letter of endorsement, recommendation.
And I will say this that whenever, so many times when I would have lunch with Hunt, it invariably came back to the Bay of Pigs.
Uh huh.
Hunt was preoccupied with the Bay of Pigs.
Now, the Bay of Pigs was a CIA effort to help Cuban exiles take back the island from Castro.
And when the plan went awry, the military and CIA tried to corner JFK into invading the island, and he refused.
And so it was an embarrassing defeat for the CIA and their plans.
It's even been suggested that the whole purpose of the action was to force JFK's hand into an invasion of another country that he didn't want.
And after it was all over, he fired Alan Dulles, who was the head of the CIA, and Richard Bissell, his lieutenant.
They were the real architects of the plan.
So, what did Hunt have to say about it?
Well, yeah.
He felt that those who were involved in the Bay of Pigs had been let down by our government.
Okay.
And he later wrote a book called Give Us This Day about the Bay of Pigs.
But the Bay of Pigs plays a great role in American history and in what I'm going to recount.
And in the Oval Office tapes, Nixon talks about the Bay of Pigs, which is really shorthand for the Kennedy assassination.
Right.
It's the Bay of Pigs thing.
The Bay of Pigs thing.
And there's a reason he does this, okay?
But so I moved to Texas.
I got a position, I got an offer.
From George Strake.
He was Secretary of State for the state of Texas in Austin.
This was in the administration of Governor Clements, who was a Republican.
Strake was a Republican.
I was a Republican in those days.
Right.
But I got a call from Howard Phillips right after Reagan was reelected.
Howard Phillips was head of the conservative caucus.
Yes.
But Howard Phillips said the Moody Foundation out of Galveston, Texas, which is a very rich and powerful foundation, would like to give us a grant, but it has to be to a Texas entity.
It can't be to a non Texas entity.
And will you form a A nonprofit Texas entity that could receive this grant.
It was a research grant, actually, and be head of the organization.
And so I incorporated the Texas Policy Institute.
It got its tax exempt status from the IRS, and the Moody Foundation gave it a grant.
But as a result of this, I started working with Sean Moody.
He was one of the three trustees of the Moody Foundation.
He tells me he's got a phone call.
He got a phone call from Jimmy Day, who was his former lobbyist.
In Austin, who had gone to Washington and become lobbyist for somebody and got himself in trouble.
But Jimmy Day says, I have next to me here Billy Solestis, and Billy Solestis wants to speak to you.
And so Billy Solestis gets on the phone.
Now we're going to get into him, but just briefly give us an outline of who Billy Solestis is.
Now, Billy Solestis is a notorious swindler, con man, but he is also the bag man and silent business partner to LBJ.
And if you know about the Kennedy assassination, just on the eve of the Kennedy assassination, Billy Solestis.
Was being investigated, as was Bobby Baker.
Those were the two big cases that could have gotten Lyndon Johnson into a lot of problems, legal problems, right on the eve of the assassination.
But what Billy Sales has said to Sherman Moody was, I want to tell my story, and I would like to have a Moody Foundation grant to do so.
I want to tell what I know about LBJ.
Wow.
And so what Moody said, he said, Well, Doug, would you go up there and meet and confer with Billy Sales?
He was in prison in Minden, Texas.
So I flew up there and met with him in prison and listened to.
He said he wanted to expose all the money that he'd given LBJ and all the murders that had been committed.
He wanted to make a clean breast of it.
Now, he originally went to prison during the time of the JFK assassination, as you mentioned.
So here he is in 1980, still in prison.
Was that because of a different case?
Well, he had two jail terms.
This was the second one.
Okay.
And he was scheduled to get out in early 1984.
And I was meeting him.
I would say about July of 83.
And so I said, Well, I think the way to do this is to write a book, publish this as a book, you know.
And so he said, I'll think about that.
So we didn't hear anything more.
Sean did not hear anything more from Billy Saul until he got out.
But what he did is gave this idea to his daughter.
And his daughter wrote a book called Billy Saul, King of the Wither Dealers, which Cause a big uproar, but all she could talk about was what happened to the family when he had all his legal problems.
He had never discussed with her anything important, put it that way.
None of the deep conspiracies.
But he said, Look at my daughter's book, it caused all this commotion.
I know if my book is published, it would be a bestseller.
I knew it would be a bestseller.
There was no doubt in my mind.
Though I did not know what he was going to disclose.
I just knew the little bit he had disposed.
I knew his history, it would be a bestseller.
Right.
And so when he got out, he called Sherman Moon and he said, I'm willing to, I want to, Published my book.
So I went up there and he said, Well, let's go over to Abilene Christian University to meet with the president.
And so I went to Abilene Christian University and the way it was going to be structured with Abilene Christian, it was going to be a $500,000 grant.
But Abilene Christian University would get like maybe $400,000 of it for its purposes on its campus, you know, building buildings or whatever.
It would be for its purposes only and $100,000 would go to Billy Saul for writing the book.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
And so So, the Booty Foundation could legally give, legitimately give the money to Abilene Christian University, $400,000 going to its purposes and $100,000 for a book.
But what happened was Billy Saul introduced me to Clint Peoples.
Clint Peoples then was the U.S. Marshal for the Northern District of Texas.
And before then, he had been a Texas Ranger.
And for 25 years, he had followed the Billy Saul Estes case and the LBJ saga.
And so he had the trust implicit.
Billy Saul trusted 10 people implicitly.
I see.
And 10 people said, I did not know this.
LBJ Food Subsidy Cabal00:03:17
I did not know.
They had these conversations and neither disclosed this to me.
I think they just forgot to disclose it to me.
Not that they intended to do so, but it was arranged for Billy Saul to go before the Robertson County Grand Jury in 1984 to talk about the killing of Henry Marshall.
Who had been killed in Robinson County.
Now, Henry Marshall was an agricultural official from Texas who had stumbled into some information about how LBJ and Billy Celestes were making money from food subsidies and cotton allotment grants from the government and were then turning that money over for business deals and committing illegal acts.
And this is where Billy Celestes was tied into the Henry Marshall case because LBJ and his cronies decided they needed to get rid of Marshall and take it from there.
Right.
And Marshall was killed.
And what year was that?
That was 1961.
That was 1961.
Yes.
1961.
But LBJ had such power with the local authorities that it was ruled a suicide.
Even though, in order for him to commit suicide, he had to use a bolt action rifle to shoot himself five times.
Right.
Five times.
They also found carbon monoxide in his system.
Right, too.
But there were later hearings before a Senate committee, and there's Senator John McClellan of Arkansas holding up this rifle saying, How could this man have, how could Mr. Marshall have committed suicide with a bolt action rifle?
Oh, yeah.
Hit himself five times.
I mean, it was so obviously not a suicide.
No question.
But Billy Saul testified, and one of the headlines is like in the Dallas Morning News Billy Saul Estes links LBJ to the murder.
Because essentially, what there was, there was a cabal.
An evil cabal of LBJ, Cliff Carter, Mac Wallace, and Billy Solestis.
Cliff Carter was LBJ's aide, close aide.
Mac Wallace was a stone-blooded, a stone killer that LBJ kept in the Department of Agriculture who would go out and do killings for LBJ.
So he was basically LBJ's hitman.
Hitman, essentially.
And then there was Billy Saul.
And so they would discuss who had to be killed and who, for whatever reason, you know.
And they had tried to bribe Henry Marshall, the Department of Agriculture employee who was.
On the verge of exposing what Billy Sales was up to, all the illegal fraud that was going on, much of which was being kicked back to LBJ.
And so they had to kill him, and so they did kill him.
And so, at this grand jury testimony in 1984, the grand jury voted to reverse the decision that, of 1961, Henry Marshall had committed suicide.
And to change it to that homicide.
Okay.
Rule to homicide.
And that was directly related to Billy Celeste's coming forward.
Edward Miller Terrorism Allegations00:04:22
Coming forward.
And it's my understanding, though I've never been able to find out this to be accurate, that Tim Peoples, the U.S. Marshal, also testified before that grand jury.
Okay.
But it caused an immense uproar in Texas.
And actually, Newsweek carried an article, and I think the New York Times carried a little article about what Billy Celeste had testified.
And so I was a minister.
This goes back to the Moody Foundation.
I was a minister in these Moody Foundation grants.
We had another grant to study terrorism.
And this was in 1984.
We were going to study terrorism in 1984.
And I'll think of the woman's name who was a leading expert on this.
She lived in Italy, but she came over to speak at our conference.
She was a very, very prominent person.
But anyway, a friend of mine in New York City, a retired FBI, Agent said, I think you should work with Edward Miller on this conference.
So I met with Edward Miller in Washington, and Edward Miller was a former assistant director of the FBI under Hoover.
And so we started working, and he gave me all this information about terrorism.
He was actually a brilliant man.
We got very close, and then I explained to him what Billy Saul had told me and what was before the Robertson grand jury, but had told the Robertson grand jury.
And he said, Well, listen.
Billy Saul had told me before I can go any further, I've got to get immunity from the federal government.
He said, from the federal government.
Yeah.
And so when I explained this to Ed Miller, he said, Look, I can get us in to see Stephen Trott, the assistant attorney general for the criminal division, because it was Stephen Trott who got Edward Miller and Mark Felt, another assistant director of the FBI, pardoned by President Reagan.
So he actually works for the Justice Department.
Stephen Trott is, yeah.
Okay.
But Mark Felt and Miller had been convicted for the black bag jobs against the weather underground.
Yes.
The wet man and all the radical left and so forth.
And so, but Reagan pardoned them.
He was assigned the pardon the day he was shot, and so it was delayed until he got his health back.
And the first day he was back in the Oval Office, he signed the pardon.
But the person who shepherded this through was Stephen Trott, who's now on the Court of Appeals in the Ninth Circuit, unless he's retired.
He was on the Court of Appeals.
But so Edmund Miller got us into Stephen Trott, and Stephen Trott looked at all these articles we brought from the Dallas Morning News, the Houston Chronicle, the Portport Star Telegram, and elsewhere and said, Well, this is something big down in Texas.
There must be something to this.
Right.
And so he said, but I need a letter, a proffer from Billy Solestis as to what he'll disclose.
So I went back to meet with Billy Solestis and I said, well, we have to write a letter as to what you're going to testify to.
And so I did write this letter, okay?
And I'm just going to read the first few paragraphs from it.
Yes, go right ahead.
This is a letter, my attorney letterhead to Stephen Trott, dated August 9th.
1984, Stephen Trott, Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C., regarding Billy Solestis.
Dear Mr. Trott, Mr. Estes has authorized me to make this reply to your letter of May 29, 1984.
That's a letter from Stephen Trott saying he needed a proffer of what Billy Solestis would say.
Mr. Estes was a member of a four member group headed by Lyndon Johnson, which committed criminal acts in Texas in the 1960s.
The other two Besides Mr. Estes and LBJ, were Cliff Carter and Mac Wallace.
Mr. Estes is willing to discuss his knowledge concerning the following criminal offenses one, murders, the killing of Henry Marshall, the killing of George Kuetak, the killing of Ike Rogers and his secretary, the killing of Harold Orr, the killing of Coleman Wade, the killing of Joseph of Johnson, the killing of John Kinzer, and the killing of John Kennedy.
So those were the murders.
Major Offer From Billy Celeste00:02:37
He was also willing to testify as to the illegal.
Cottoning, cotton allotments that he had been involved in, of which money had gone back to LBJ.
And then he was going to also talk about the illegal payoffs.
So Celestes has the inside information on all of these killings, and he's offering the U.S. Department of Justice to testify about these murders as long as he's granted immunity from his own involvement in the discussions and conspiracies.
Right.
But the last name on that list really grabs me because it's John F. Kennedy.
Yeah.
That's very intense information.
And when we come back, we'll look closer at Celeste's allegations and what became of his offer.
And we'll head even deeper into the core of the JFK assassination who was involved and why he was assassinated.
Stay with us.
Dark Journalist Goes Deep.
My question is what are you seeing now?
What are the conditions like on the ground in real America?
The top guests you want to hear, like investigative reporter Linda Moulton Howe.
Audiences are getting it, they are bypassing.
The government suppression.
Financial expert, Catherine Austin Fitz.
So there's a lot going on underneath the ground and a lot going on, you know, in the skies.
And whatever it is, it's very expensive.
Scholar, Joseph P. Farrell.
If you don't consider the black budget, if you don't consider this hidden system of finance, then you're missing over half of the financial picture.
Historian, Richard Dolan.
I hope listeners realize that this is not a run of the mill interview that I did.
Dark journalist goes deep.
The most crucial topics, the breakaway civilization, Life budget and covert warfare.
Hidden information.
Secret finance.
UFOs.
The alien reality.
The best interviews.
The real story.
Visit darkjournalist.com.
Sign up for our free newsletter to stay updated on the latest shows.
Support Dark Journalist by visiting our contribute page.
Help us deliver cutting edge truth to you.
Join us on Facebook and Twitter.
Dark Journalist.
The truth is never easy.
We need dark journalists, so just keep doing what you're doing.
And we're back.
This is Dark Journalist, and I'm speaking with former Watergate attorney Douglas Caddy, author of six books and a man with truly incredible experience walking through some of the major historical events in our time.
Opening The Can Of Worms00:03:27
Now, Douglas, that was a major offer that Celestis put out there to expose the shady dealings of LBJ and the death of President Kennedy.
What happened to him and his case?
So we went back to confer with Stephen Trott, and he said, Well, okay, I'm asking the director of the FBI to assign two, three, three young agents who were probably not even born before the Kennedy assassination to go into the files of Billy Salesis and the Kennedy assassination and see if there's anything worth pursuing here.
So the FBI director assigned these three young agents to go into the files, and they concluded there was something worthwhile, very worthwhile.
To proceed with this with Billy Saul Estes.
And so they flew down to Abilene, Texas to meet with Billy Saul, and I flew down on another plane at the same time.
I was in Washington.
And there is a hotel in Abilene with an atrium.
And by that I mean, you can be on the 12th floor and look right down at the lobby, you know.
And so I was waiting in the lobby there with my co counsel when Billy Saul and his daughter showed up.
And Billy Saul started immediately and said, Well, I'm.
I'm not going to just talk to these.
I'm not going to talk to anyone.
I'm not going to talk to the FBI.
I'm not going to talk any further.
This is the end.
I'm not going to provide any more information.
That's it.
And I tried to be reasonable to him.
I said, well, you know, but we've gone to all this trouble.
Yeah.
Every government has gone to all this trouble.
And I've gone to all this trouble.
And 10 people have gone to all this trouble.
And why, you know, you should not back out at this point, you know.
But he did.
And he left in about, I'd say, 15 minutes there.
But the FBI agents were upstairs looking over the radio watching this meeting take place.
And so, I immediately went up there and explained what occurred, and they flew back to Washington.
And that was the end of Billy Saul's efforts to tell what he knew.
Uh huh.
Now, did you ever figure out why he bailed out?
Well, I asked Clint Peoples why he thought he bailed out.
And Clint Peoples, the U.S. Marshal, and he said he thought that the reason Billy Saul backed out was there was another family member involved, not necessarily in the murders, okay, but involved in some of his illegal criminal activities, maybe the allotments, who knows what it would have been, you know.
And that for him to open up this can of worms could have involved this other family member.
That was Clint People's take on it, you know?
And so Billy Saul just got cold feet at that point.
We really don't know why Billy Saul backed out.
Billy Saul, since then, has published his memoirs, which are quite interesting, but he doesn't make full revelations in his memoir.
His memoir was published maybe six or seven years ago.
He has passed on now.
He has passed on.
He did come out.
There was a French television show, and the JFK researcher, William Raymond, took him on this show.
And he did say some of the revelations about LBJ there.
But it's interesting that he came out for just a little while with this incredible information, even though he didn't give us everything.
No, he didn't.
He did not do that.
I'm going to put on my glasses right here, but I want to quote this is the New York Times article on Billy Sallow's death.
Okay.
Christmas Autopsy And Johnson Secrets00:05:59
And I'm just going to quote two short paragraphs that says.
But his print is so small I have to put it on.
Billy Solestis, Texas con man whose fall shook up Washington, dies at 88.
And this is May 14, 2013.
It looks like the print is so small.
Okay.
But the two paragraphs I want to read is okay.
Billy Solestis, a fast talking Texas winner who made millions.
Went to prison and captivated America for years with mind boggling agricultural scams, payoffs to politicians, and bizarre tales of cover up killings and White House conspiracies.
He was found dead on Tuesday at his home in Granbury, Texas.
He was 88.
Non existent fertilizer tanks, faked mortgages, bogus cotton allotments, farmers and forest states bamboozled, strange suicides, in quotes here, including a bludgeon investigator shot five times with a boat action.
Rifle, assassination plots, Jimmy Hoffa, and Fidel Castro, Jack Ruby, and Lee Harvey Oswald.
He said that's all part of Estes' history.
It's hard to top that.
But what's fascinating is that he was a major LBJ business partner.
He ends up going to prison, and yet, and this is something that you've pointed out, LBJ's biographer Robert Caro doesn't mention him once in the four volumes of LBJ's history that he writes.
Yeah, and Mac Wallace is also missing too.
Now, Mac Wallace is a stone killer.
The first killing I mentioned was of John Kinzer.
John Kinzer was killed in 1951, and he was Joseph, being the sister of LBJ, boyfriend.
And he was killed because Joseph had told him too much.
I see.
And Mac Wallace went to Austin and killed him at a golf shop at which Kinzer worked, and was caught by the police as he fled the city.
And he told the arresting officer, I work for Lyndon Johnson, I've got to get back to Washington.
Right.
But they still arrested him.
Okay.
Yeah.
And he stood trial and was convicted of malice of forethought, homicide, and a felony.
And yet the judge gave him a probated sentence of five years and he walked free.
And that was the power of Lyndon Johnson.
His attorney at the trial was Lyndon Johnson's attorney.
Exactly.
So this.
Lyndon Johnson basically got him off.
Got him off.
But Lyndon Johnson achieved what he wanted John Kinzer was killed because.
He knew too much about what Johnson was up to in 1951.
Now, jumping to 1961, one of the murders I list there is of Josepha, 10 years later.
Yes, LBJ's sister.
His sister.
And she, and now, but Billy Saul told me, and he also told Lucienne Goldberg.
I arranged for Lucienne Goldberg, who's a literary agent from New York City, a prominent literary agent, the mother of Jonah Goldberg, the columnist who writes in the newspapers today, whom I knew from years before, I knew Lucienne, to come to Texas.
To meet with Billy Saul and maybe be his litter agent.
And so we met in Abilene, and this is in 1984, sometime.
And one of the things we discussed was Joseph's murder.
And what Billy Saul said was that Joseph was murdered on Christmas Eve, 1961.
Her cake, the portion of the cake that was given to her, was poisoned.
And she died and was buried.
And that was Anna Josepha.
No autopsy.
No, really, yeah, no autopsy.
She was, once again, she was drinking too much.
She was on drugs.
She was a danger.
This was 1961 when he was vice president.
She was a danger, and who knows what he was planning at that time regarding JFK.
She posed a serious threat to Albie J's ambitions to his goals.
And so, a friend on Facebook of all places, because Billy Saul told me this in '84, and also Luzanne Goldberg, a friend of mine on Facebook several months ago who belongs to Ancestry.com, she can go on there and get these death certificates, you know.
Yeah.
She got Joseph's death certificate and sent it to me, and it shows that the death is on December 25th, 1961, Christmas Day.
She was poisoned on Christmas Eve, and the burial was on December 26th.
Oh.
No autopsy, no funeral.
And knowing Lyndon Johnson, he probably had her buried like one minute after midnight on December 26th.
Yes.
In the middle of the night.
Right, right.
And if Celestia's allegations are true, and he knew him really well, It shows just how vicious LBJ was.
Yeah, LBJ was.
Well, Howard Hunt, in his deathbed confession, says that LBJ's ambitions were unlimited.
They really were unlimited.
And you know, this is so contrary to what the media puts out about LBJ and portraying him as this great hero.
But let's go to this clip, which is Bobby Kennedy talking privately about how he feels about LBJ shortly after his brother's assassination.
Our president was a gentleman and a human being, this man, it's not.
Yeah.
He's mean, bitter, vicious animal, anyway.
I think he's got this other side of him and his relationship with human beings, which make it very difficult, unless you want to kiss his behind all the time.
He's able to eat people up.
Fingerprint Match Deposition Topic00:14:12
Senator Robert Kennedy there, with no illusions about LBJ, and in fact, as Attorney General, he was quietly investigating some of Johnson's shady dealings.
So, what happened after the Celestis deal fell apart?
So, anyway, that ended my involvement with Bill of Celestis.
Had he gone forward and told what he knew about Lyndon Johnson, it'd be a great revelation.
But all he did was write what he knew about his book and talk about this fellow, the interview with this French fellow that you told about.
In other words, he took to his grave very important secrets.
Right.
He definitely added intriguing facts that should have shaken up the media world if there wasn't such a block there.
Right.
And we know he had even more to share that we didn't get.
Right.
Now, interestingly enough, about 14 years later, so from 1984 to 1998, in 1998, a JFK researcher named Jay Harrison had a copy of the unidentified fingerprint that was found on a box in the so called Sniper's Nest on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
And then he obtained a fingerprint for Mac Wallace's arrest record, and he found an expert who matched the two up.
Now, can you talk a little bit about how this Mac Wallace character received some attention with this discovery?
Yeah, Mac Wallace, by the way, Mac Wallace.
Was investigated by the Office of Naval Intelligence when he had to go through security checks at various times in his career, and he failed almost all of them.
And I have copies of these intelligence reports.
They show that he was convicted of this felony in the killing of John Kinzer.
Right, okay.
If you read the intelligence reports, personnel reports on Mac Wallace, they're very damning, put it that way.
Right.
Well, he fits the profile of a dangerous psychopath, basically.
And he came out of the University of Texas.
I think he was president of the student body there.
I mean, he came out of the LBJ, Lyndon John Connolly era, in other words.
Yes.
One of the Texas boys.
Right.
There always been this question about this fingerprint on a box there on the sixth floor in the Texas Depository in a sniper's nest, right?
And so this fingerprint was available in the public record.
And so Barr McClellan, who actually was at one time an attorney in the law firm in Austin that represented LBJ, took it to Nathan Darby.
Who was the Austin Police Department, retired Austin Police Department fingerprint expert for like 30 years, and asked him to examine this fingerprint against what the public fingerprints of Malcolm Wallace, Mac Wallace, were.
Yes.
And he found, I think, like 26 points, some gigantic number of points of matching fingerprints.
They matched.
Yeah.
They matched.
Uh huh.
And so he filed an affidavit that this was Mac Wallace's fingerprint there on that box.
And so.
That's always been a continuing point of contention in this whole thing.
Sure.
One way or another.
But Mac Wallace was a psychopath, there's no doubt about it.
But he died a mysterious death, an automobile death, too.
I would say, too, so did Clint Peoples.
He died in an automobile accident, and his car ran off the road and hit a tree.
Uh huh.
And so did Mac Wallace.
Yes.
You know, and Clint Peoples.
I say, but Tim Peoples was about ready to make a major announcement about LBJ the next day.
Well, the policy here is leave no witnesses, clearly.
And we know that a huge number of JFK assassination witnesses were killed in a short period following the crime.
An actuary in London was engaged by the London Sunday Times.
And they found that the odds of these people dying in that period of time were 100,000 trillion to one.
So we can see a witness elimination program was still functioning.
So let's go to this clip.
Of Nathan Darby, the fingerprint expert who matched the print in the Texas School Book Depository with that of Mac Wallace, and was surprised that the FBI denied the evidence.
I don't know why they couldn't say that the thing didn't match.
It did match.
There's no question about it.
My experience, I've just had too much experience.
I know what I'm talking about.
I'm positive.
There's no question about it.
My dying decoration, if I was to drop dead right now, they match.
And that's Nathan Darby, fingerprint expert for the Navy and Austin Police Department.
So, to sum this up, Billy Celestes came forward with an offer to give testimony in exchange for immunity that would implicate LBJ in the murder of President John F. Kennedy.
We can see they took his allegations, at least some of them, seriously enough, because Henry Marshall, the agricultural official who, according to Celestes, was killed because he was exposing corruption, his cause of death was changed from suicide to homicide.
And also, a researcher in the JFK assassination did match the fingerprint of LBJ's hitman, as Celestis described him, to an unidentified print on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
Now, Douglas, you were right in the thick of it when these things were coming to light.
But then, as time passed, you got busy with other things.
So, what was it that made you come back to the JFK assassination and these revelations?
The JFK assassination topic on the Education Forum London.
Started a topic on me.
Yes, right.
In 2006.
And when I read about this, and they did that because they had read online about my correspondence with Stephen Trott, the Attorney General in the Justice Department, about Billy Sales' case and about the allegations about John Kennedy.
And so they started a topic about me because I had been a figure in Watergate, and now I was bringing forth this information from Billy Sales' about Kennedy and about Malcolm Wallace.
Yes.
And so when I saw them starting this topic about me, I decided to join the education forum.
Out of London.
But in joining the education forum, up to then, I had never been a scholar of the Kennedy assassination.
In other words, I knew, I described where I was when it took place, but I knew books had been written, but it was not something I had really on my radar screen, so to speak.
I see.
But by joining, because I was a topic specifically on the education forum, on the JFK assassination topic, I got educated.
And what I came to see was there, what I came to conclude was I never realized John Kennedy was a great man.
Actually, John Kennedy was a great.
Great man.
Yes.
I mean, if he had lived what he could accomplish, our country would be so different today.
No question.
It would be vastly, vastly different.
And he was at work to do these changes that he wanted done when he was killed.
That was why he was killed, basically.
Right.
But he was a great man.
He had all these things that he wanted to do.
And I had never realized that.
And these people on the education for him explored all aspects of his assassination.
I mean, all corners and so forth.
And And they've done this for years, and they continue to turn up new information.
For example, the CIA is still withholding 1,500 documents on the Kennedy assassination.
And who else?
Who knows what else?
Like the Secret Service has destroyed all its documents.
Who knows what else is actually out there in the government?
We still don't even have Lee Harvey Oswald's tax records, they're classified.
Oh, really?
It's classified?
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
You know why?
The question why?
This is 52 years later, right?
Why aren't these records being released?
Why is his still classified information?
Yeah.
But this led me to.
I became educated on and opened my eyes, quite frankly.
And I began to appreciate John Kennedy for being a great man.
Actually, there's a book called by James Douglas JFK and the Unspeakable.
The Unspeakable.
And I think that would be.
A great reference book to go and read.
Definitely, yeah, just an amazing book.
Douglas the Unspeakable, yeah, I would recommend that highly.
So you're reading on the forum and you're absorbing all this information and it starts to awaken some realizations in you about the JFK assassination.
Well, what the forum afforded me was I posted a number of articles, maybe a thousand articles since I've been on there, by different publications.
And then last year I decided, after John Dean's book was published, I decided now was the time for my memoir.
Okay.
So I wrote a memoir, and rather than take it to a publisher, which, you know, there's a lag between taking it to a publisher and being published.
Sure.
I decided I would just publish it on the education forum and make it immediately available.
So anyone can go on the internet and type in Douglas Caddy's memoir on Watergate, and that will take you to the JFK assassination topic on the education forum.
And my memoir, 22 page memoir, I think it is, is there.
That's great.
Now, at the conclusion of your memoir, you say something very intriguing.
Are you ready to talk about that now?
In my conclusion to the memoir, I say President Nixon's cosmic downfall because of Watergate was, in my opinion, blowback or what goes around comes around, or perhaps a morphed form of karma.
This was because the principal purposes of the burglars going to the Democratic headquarters, in addition to getting lists of clients of both the female and male prostitution rings thought to be there and to plant a new wiretap bug, was also to cop.
Copy secret Cuban government intelligence reports suspected to be there.
The documents linked through a chain of events, a decision by Vice President Nixon in 1960 to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy three years later.
It was about that Bay of Pigs thing.
Possible possession of the reports by the Democrats, which included additional intelligence as to persons involved in JFK's assassination, if released publicly during the 1972 presidential campaign, posed a serious threat.
To Nixon's reelection, but in the even far more serious threat to the CIA for its role in the assassination.
But that is for another story.
That is for another story to be told at another time.
And so now I'm going to tell that other story.
Yes.
In this interview here.
The other story really surrounds my having a dinner with Howard Hunt in 1975.
Now, the break in was in 1972.
The trial was in, where he pleaded guilty was in 1973.
He was going to prison in 1975.
The delay in going to prison was because he testified before the Senate Watergate Committee, before the Spressa Prostitutor, depositions.
There were all these things that, you know, it was best to keep him out of prison so far he could give this testimony.
So he called me up and said, Well, I'd like to have dinner with you.
But what I viewed it as was a dinner of appreciation.
Actually, that's the phrase he used a dinner of appreciation for what you've done on my behalf.
And let's have dinner.
And we chose the Yenqing Palace, which was a very successful, prominent Chinese restaurant up on Connecticut Avenue in Washington.
Right.
It closed about seven or eight years ago.
And when it closed, the Washington Post had a large article about it titled 50 Years of Secrets to Go, because there were so many secrets to go at that Chinese restaurant.
The Cuban Missile Crisis was settled there.
Henry Kissinger dined there frequently.
And actually, there was a booth there, a booth at the back that was wirebugged, where I guess if the government wanted certain discussions to take place, that was a booth.
They would be escorted to do that booth, you know.
That wasn't the Washington Post article.
Hunt and I did not sit in that booth, by the way.
Smart.
But we had this meeting.
I should point out that.
I had only seen Hunt three times after Watergate broke.
I saw him when he came to my apartment after calling me from the White House in the early morning hours of July 17th, where he retained me to represent him, etc.
And then I saw him at Dorothy's funeral, which was in December of 1972.
And then I saw him at this dinner.
We did not see each other because what had happened to me, where I was forced to testify as to things that I and my attorneys felt violated the attorney client privilege.
We felt that any conversation with Howard Hunt could be forced to disclose and would compromise him.
So it was just best all around that we have no conversation.
So that's why he waited to 75.
He was getting ready to go to prison and he wanted to just say thank you.
So we started off with light banter, but he wanted to keep it light.
Howard Hughes Government Donor00:05:47
I could tell that he probably anticipated that I was going to ask serious questions, which I was.
I knew he was going to prison and who knows when I'd see him again and so forth.
Actually, I never saw Howard Hunt again after that.
We did correspond and so forth and talk on the phone several times, but I never saw him again after that.
So, somewhere into the mail, I said, Well, Howard, I've got to ask you some questions, you know.
I mean, really, there's some questions that I really feel I need to be answered.
The first one is, Why did you go into the Democratic National Committee?
What was so important there?
He hesitated, then he said, Well, we went in there.
I told them just to photograph any documents that had numbers on it.
I said, Howard, Howard, come on now, please, please.
I mean, you can't get away with that.
That's just too easy in an answer, you know.
I mean, look what I've gone through on your behalf, and look what the other defendants, you know, there's got to be.
And he just shrugged his shoulders, you know, and I said, Well, you know, you did plead guilty.
To burglary and to conspiracy and to eavesdropping.
And I was a witness at that first trial.
You had pleaded guilty, so you went there.
But I remember looking out at that table in front of me and seeing all that equipment wiretap equipment and photograph equipment and so forth.
And so, Howard, I said, isn't it true then that you went in there to replace a defective bug?
Because I had read about this in the newspapers, this had been discussed.
Publicly and so forth.
But I was asking for him confirmation.
But all he did was to go nod his head like that.
He didn't verbally articulate, okay?
Okay.
But I took that to be an assent.
That was his method of assenting to what I had asked.
And I thought about it and I said, well, there was a lot of publicity about a prostitution ring being operated out of the Democratic National Committee in the media.
And there were articles actually in the Washington Press about a prostitution ring being operated on Capitol Hill.
Right.
This is in the year of the election, okay?
And so, did you not also go in there to get copies of the books that contain the names of the clients of the prostitution ring there?
And in the back of my mind, I was thinking, obviously, this is how you compromise people.
You know, if you can get the names of the clients.
You can compromise them and force them through blackmail and so forth to do things.
This is like what they're saying that former speaker Dennis Hastert.
Hastert, yeah.
They're accusing him of trying to pay off someone to keep quiet, you know.
And so this was an intent.
I think this was more of an intent to be on the part of, if I had to make a guess, of McCord than of the others.
In other words, my understanding is the burglars.
Each of them had an assignment of things to do.
And so I asked Howard, did you not also go in there to get copies of those books?
And he once again, like that, not giving a dissenting, I thought.
That's the way I concluded that was his way of not verbalizing it.
And so I thought about it and I said, well, Howard, this is not strong enough, this is not enough of a reason to burglarize the Democratic National Committee.
I mean, burglarizing any office is a serious criminal offense.
And going in for these, I won't say they're trivial, but they certainly are not important things in the whole scheme of things.
And so that's got to be another reason why you went in there.
And he hesitated for a moment, and I said yes.
And he said, well, there was another reason.
And I said, well, what was that?
And he said, we believe there were Cuban government reports.
In the Democratic National Committee that were connected to the Kennedy assassination.
And I said, wow, Cuban government reports that would be connected to the Kennedy assassination that would give us information about the Kennedy assassination.
He said, yes.
I said, well, what were in those reports?
What do you believe were in those reports?
Because obviously, they did not have a chance to get those reports because they were arrested before they had a chance to do virtually anything.
And at that point, he just held up his hands, went like that, and said, No more questions.
And so we turned to other, I won't say we kept it light because you can't keep it light with him going to prison, but we did discuss his children and my circumstances and so forth.
And so we had a congenial dinner, and then we walked out.
Eisenhower Alien Intelligence Meetings00:15:43
And on the street there, I thought, well, this is the last time I'll see Howard.
I'm going to make one more stab, okay?
Yeah.
At seeing if I can get something here, you know?
And I said, well, Howard, why was John Kennedy assassinated?
What would be in those reports that would be important?
And he said, Why was John Kennedy assassinated?
He said, John Kennedy was assassinated because he was about to give our most vital secret to the Soviets.
About to give our most vital secret to the Soviets.
And I was stunned by that.
I mean, John Kennedy, our president, Soviets, and I never even thought about, heard about such a thing.
And he said, and I said, well, what was that?
And at that point, he leaned forward and looked right in my eyes, direct in my eyes, and he said, the alien presence.
And reached out and shook my hand and then turned and walked away.
And that was the last time I saw Howard Hunt.
Wow.
The alien presence, you know.
That's amazing.
Now, looking back, it didn't make any impression to me at the time because I had not.
Were you shocked by it?
Well, I was, but I was shocked.
But I was not a student of the Kennedy assassination.
That did not take place in 2006.
It didn't mean that much to me.
I knew it was important, but it did not mean that much.
There's no way I could, in the alien presence, I was not.
Really familiar with that either, you know.
But I remembered it.
I knew it was important.
And so this came up later on when I joined the education forum.
And this sort of congealed in my mind as to what had occurred.
And one thing I came across in my own investigation, I think you've had on your guest, one of your guests, Stanton Friedman, have you not?
Yes.
And Stanton is a marvelous guy.
Yes, what a terrific researcher.
Yeah, researcher.
And his way he presents things.
You know, it's always interesting to put it that way.
He's a great speaker.
Definitely.
But he, as an investigator, as a researcher, he said that he went to the Harvard University Library because he wanted to look up the file on Dr. Donald Menzel.
Dr. Menzel was the head of the observatory at Harvard and he was an astronomer.
And actually, the reason Stanton Friedman was interested in him was because for years he was the number one public critic of.
UFOs and aliens and all that subject, you know.
I mean, the press would always go to him and he'd always say, you know, this is done since so forth and so on.
Menzel was like the big UFO debunker of the 50s and 60s.
And because of his position at Harvard, I mean, he had the credibility and people believed him.
Right.
So, and so he was going, Stanton Friedman was going through the file and he came across this file within the file on JFK and he said, wow.
This is kind of interesting, you know.
Yeah.
And he opened, and that was a letter from Donald Menzel, Dr. Menzel, to JFK, to John Kennedy, who was on the board of overseers of Harvard University in 1957.
That was when he was on the board of overseers.
That was the letter, and in which he said that when JFK got.
JFK was already a senator at that time.
Yes.
So he was a senator, but senators do not have the highest classification of security.
In other words, you can be a senator, but you still.
There's still levels of security above you.
Oh, sure.
Sure.
And so he didn't.
And so what he said in the letter when you get that pending level of security granted, there are things I want to talk to you about my work with the NSA and these other activities dealing with, I gather, with aliens and UFOs and so forth, you know.
And so this would have been the first, my conclusion, I may be wrong about this, this may have been the first time that John Kennedy.
Came in contact with someone who had detailed knowledge of what we'll call the alien presence, use that as a general term.
Right.
And so when he became president, and what I read into his actions subsequently is that he had his own agenda.
And one of his agendas was to get more knowledge about the alien presence.
Now, the interesting thing about Dr. Menzel was.
Was that he was a member of Majestic 12.
Yes.
I mean, he was, his authority was so high that he had really complete knowledge of the alien presence.
Okay.
And so John Kennedy, having been briefed by Dr. Menzel and he was president, he wanted more information.
He decided to, I think, approach this obliquely.
And the first thing he did was in June of 1961, he issued National Security Action Memorandum 55, in which He directed that the Defense Department take over oversight of the covert activities of the CIA.
And he thought this would give him an insight into the research project of Majestic 12.
And then he, at that same time in 1961, he met with Khrushchev in Vienna.
Right.
And he broached with Khrushchev at that time that there'd be joint exploration of outer space between the Soviet Union and the United States and maybe a landing on the moon, a joint landing on the moon.
Right.
Instead of a space race, joint missions.
He essentially tried to build, open up ties with the Soviet Union.
I think Khrushchev was taken back by this.
Maybe he thought, who is this?
Is this an amateur I'm dealing with?
Yeah.
You know, who is this?
Who is so coming forward with this revolutionary idea that these two mortal enemies, the United States and the Soviet Union, may start working together or open up avenues of discussion and so forth, you know?
And so then he wrote a letter to Khrushchev in March of 1962.
Asking that building more bridges and so forth.
And then President Kennedy appointed Dr. Hugh Dryden, who was an assistant minister of NASA, NASA NASA, to coordinate activity with his counterpart in the Soviet Union, a scientist of equal stature in the Soviet Union, on the subject of exploration of outer space and a landing on the moon.
Yes.
And then Kennedy went ahead.
With his speech at American University in June 1963.
This was just, remember, he was assassinated in November, in which he advocated peace, world peace.
I mean, he was a strong advocate of peace.
It's a great speech, one of the greatest speeches by any president.
And I urge viewers of this video to go on YouTube and find that speech, the speech of John F. Kennedy at American University in June of 1963.
All right.
And then in September of 1963, he spoke before the United Nations, at which time he Formally advocated.
He said the exploration of outer space is not a matter just for one nation, it's a matter for international cooperation.
And I would propose that the two great powers, the Soviet Union, the USSR, and the United States, engage jointly in outer space and a landing on the moon.
Wow.
And this was once again his attempt to build bridges to the Soviet Union.
And his final step before he was assassinated was he issued a national.
Security Action Memorandum 271, which I have in front of me here and is available.
You can go online and find it in the National Archives and so forth.
And I'm just going to read the first few paragraphs of it.
Though it was signed personally by John Kennedy, he felt it important enough that he wanted to sign this one personally.
Right.
But it's the data November 12th, and it's National Security Action Memorandum number 271, Memorandum for the Administrator, National Aeronautic and Space.
Space Administration, subject to cooperation with the USSR on outer space matters.
I would like you to assume personally the initiative and control responsibility within the government for the development of a program of substantive cooperation with the Soviet Union in the field of outer space, including the development of specific technological proposals.
I assume that you will work closely with the Department of State and other agencies as appropriate.
These proposals.
Should be developed with a view to their possible discussion with the Soviet Union as a direct outcome of my September 20th proposal for broad cooperation between the United States and the USSR in outer space, including cooperation in lunar landing programs.
That's his UN speech he's referring to there.
Right.
All proposals or suggestions originating with the government relating to this general subject.
Should be referred to you for your consideration and evaluation.
It goes on, but the important point here is that, and I should, the important point here is Kennedy is making, proposing a formal government policy.
And to cement it in concrete, he sends this memorandum to the following persons Chairman of the National Aeronautics and Space Council, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Chairman of the Atlantic.
Atomic Energy Commission, Special Assistant to the President for Science and Technology, Director of Bureau of the Budget, Director of U.S. Information Agency, copy to Mr. Bundy, Mr. Johnson, and the National Security Council files.
So he formally proposed this as a policy.
Now, let's step back and see what reaction within his own government would be to this.
I mean, you're General Curtis LeMay.
How would you react if you were General Curtis LeMay?
Well, it wouldn't be pretty.
A guy like LeMay was so used to fighting the Soviet Union, I could only imagine that they were just completely furious on the inside of the national security structure.
Wouldn't General Curtis LeMay be absolutely furious?
He would want to nuke the Soviet Union.
Oh, yeah.
Just arbitrarily just let's go off and nuke them, you know.
Definitely.
And there are all these people who had that attitude to the Soviet Union, unalterably opposed within the military, within the CIA, within the NSA, and so forth.
And so Kennedy essentially was on his own to a great extent.
He had his brother, but he was on his own head.
I guess he had his own supporters, but he was striking out new fields.
Now, he had also made other enemies.
We have to realize he had made other enemies through other proposals, like dealing with the Federal Reserve, for example, and on the Bay of Pigs.
Yeah.
Bay of Pigs was very, very important because the Cuban American community blamed him for the Bay of Pigs debacle.
Right.
So he did have other enemies, but in my opinion, What he was doing, starting with his first Action Memorandum 55, where he asked the Defense Department to have oversight over the covert activities of the CIA, this was in June of 1961, he was challenging the authority of the successor to Majestic 12.
And just for context, do you want to describe what MJ 12 or Majestic 12 is?
This is a government above the government.
Even President Clinton at one point publicly.
Stated that he had come to believe when he was president, this is President Clinton, that there was a government above his over which he had no control.
Right, okay.
And there is a government over the president over which our presidents have no control.
And so what Kennedy was doing was challenging this group.
This is the group that has the authority to deal with the alien presence, and I use that in the broadest sense.
Yes.
If they pose a military threat, whatever it is.
Or if we recover this off world technology and reverse engineer it, that all goes to this group.
All the facets of it.
But they're super secret.
But they're super secret.
The names of the original Majestic 12 are known, but after that, the names are virtually unknown.
We do not know who at this time ministers this organization now.
And Kennedy, in my opinion, because he posed a threat, he posed a threat to them by saying, I, as president, want this information.
As president, I'm the elected representative of the American people.
I feel that I should have this information.
About the alien presence.
This should not be just in the province of this secret group.
And so, in my opinion, behind his assassination ultimately was his attempt to get possession, to have authority to get into Majestic 12's oversight of the alien presence.
Well, it provides a powerful motive to those on the inside of that group to remove JFK and retain their exclusive access to this exotic technology.
I'm saying they made the decision.
But it was not carried out by them, obviously.
Right.
I mean, the planning of the assassination was done very, very carefully.
The planning of the cover up was done very, very carefully.
If I had to say who I thought was the ultimate planner, I would say Angleton, James Angleton of the CIA.
And this is James Jesus Angleton, who was chief of the Central Intelligence Agency's counterintelligence program at that time.
You know, the movements of Oswald to Russia and back, and the movements here, and interfacing with Bannister, I mean, all the movements that had to be done.
The JFK's cabinet was en route to Japan when the assassination took place.
Right, they all just happened to be sent out of the country during the assassination.
Just the Secretary of State and the Attorney General were in Washington.
Whoever had planned it had planned it so the cabinet were en route to Japan to conduct commercial negotiations.
And of course, that got them out of the loop for several days, you know.
But that took a lot of planning, right?
Yes, and Angleton is a very likely candidate for that type of planning.
Now, is there another high level figure that comes to mind?
I think that.
Lyndon Johnson, from the time he became actually the nominee as vice president, he planned to become president.
He planned to become president.
Frank Sturgis Deathbed Confession00:05:26
There is this quotation from Bobby Baker, who was his right hand man, to one of LBJ's assistants at the inauguration, to the effect that JFK would not live out his term as president.
That's fascinating.
So I think, but what happened was I think that Lyndon Johnson had knowledge of the assassination, but he was not the central figure controlling.
The operation of it and so forth.
He had prior knowledge.
Well, let's go back to Hunt for a moment.
So, Hunt tells you, his good friend, the real reason why JFK was assassinated, which was he was going to share our knowledge of the alien presence with the Soviet Union.
Our most vital secret.
Our most vital secret, right.
Now, later, he did make a deathbed confession about LBJ working with elements of the CIA to assassinate President Kennedy.
If anyone wants to see that, it's in my documentary, Agent Oswald, the CIA Patsy, on the Dark Journalist site and this channel.
How did you feel about your old friend's deathbed confession?
Well, looking back, I agreed with him on LBJ.
I agree with him.
I do think LBJ.
But looking back, he said in interviews with the press, and he wrote an article for the New York Times while he was in prison, about, and he says, I'm still serving my country.
He says, I'm in prison, but I'm still serving my country.
And I think what he was saying at his deathbed confession is he would still serve his country by withholding.
He wouldn't be the person to say on his deathbed, you know, there is an alien presence.
So you're saying he still wouldn't release that information because of some loyalty to the secrecy around the alien presence?
Howard Hunt, the bottom line is, Howard Hunt was in such a position to know about the alien presence.
I'm not just saying that he had.
The knowledge that a member of Majestic 12 had, but he had the general parameters of a concrete knowledge.
And so when he said that to me, he was speaking with authority.
Yes.
And when he said that on his deathbed, that LBJ and the people that were involved, as I say, I read into it that he was saying, like he said various times and in this article, I'm serving my country, even in these difficult circumstances.
And you may not realize, you don't realize I'm serving my country.
You don't realize I'm keeping my mouth.
Quiet shut as to what I know.
So, in his deathbed confession, then he's giving us part of the story.
Uh huh, yeah.
He did implicate some CIA agents in the assassination of JFK, like Cord Meyer, like William Harvey, also Bernard Barker, Frank Sturgis, Eugenio Martinez, you know.
Yes.
And he said that they used him as a bench warmer on it and that they never actually called him to participate.
Now, what do you think of that?
Well, okay.
That's what he said.
That's what he said.
Okay.
I think his participation was deeper.
Yeah.
Murderer Lenz maintains that she was present in Dallas the night before the assassination, at which Howard Hunt distributed the money to those involved.
Which would give him a major role as one of the coordinators of the whole thing.
Murderer Lenz rode in a car from Miami to Dallas with Frank Sturgis.
There were actually two cars, and one of them broke down en route.
On the border of Texas and Louisiana.
And a friend of mine, Detective Jim Rothstein, has actually the repair bill of that car that was en route from Miami to Dallas.
And Marta Lorenz was Castro's young girlfriend who was then recruited into the CIA, and they wanted her to kill Fidel Castro.
Yeah, she went there at one point to kill Castro, and he sensed that she was going to do it, and he confronted her, and she said, Nobody can kill me.
Well, I guess he turned out to be right about that.
Yeah.
She's someone, I think, who has a lot she could say.
I certainly would like to talk to her.
But to bring this around to your close friendship with Hunt, now you knew him well.
Yeah.
And you knew his wife, Dorothy, and his family.
How do you feel, looking back now, knowing what you know, how do you feel about Hunt having a role in something as treacherous as the JFK assassination?
Um,.
I think Hunt, in his own mind, justified it.
He was so wedded to that Bay of Pigs sellout, and maybe these steps that JFK were taking.
Howard Hunt was very conservative, very right wing, as you can see with all the Latin American activities that he was involved in, that so many people were killed and so forth.
I could see him agreeing to that.
I could see him agreeing to that.
You could.
Secret Finance And Drug Trade00:07:12
But only if he sensed that it was justification in doing so.
Right.
Justification in doing so.
Well, it's just remarkable.
And it speaks to your friendship with him that when he saw you that last time, he shared this amazing secret of what was behind the JFK assassination.
Now, what I'd like to know is how these presidents before and after JFK dealt with this group that were in control of the off world technology.
And how did they deal with the alien presence?
Eisenhower had, I think, the most knowledge about the alien presence.
At that time, I mean, Eisenhower was deep into this subject and may have even met with representatives of the alien intelligence.
Well, that's true.
There have been rumors for years that President Eisenhower met with representatives of another alien culture, and there have been some whistleblower testimony on that over the years.
But Nixon was his vice president.
Nixon was chairman of the 5412 committee, which oversaw covert activities.
Right.
And I think Nixon had probably possessed, if I had to make a guess, 80% of the knowledge that Eisenhower had.
On the alien presence of Majestic 12 and so forth.
And Nixon, when he became president in 1968, the first thing he did was to try to get control of the research project into Majestic 12.
But to understand this, in 1960, Nixon contacted Howard Hughes in the early part, I would say early summer of 1960, and asked Howard Hughes to arrange the assassination of Castro without the government fingerprints on it.
So that hopefully before the election, because that would assure Nixon's election, you know?
Exactly.
But if not, afterwards.
And Howard Hughes agreed to do that.
Howard Hughes, you know, had done a number of things for the government.
He was one of Nixon's secret donors, some things like that.
And Hughes delegated to Robert Mayhew, his right hand man.
And Mayhew, M A H E U, right?
Mayhew delegated it to, or not delegated, he sought out the assistance of the mafia and organized crime.
And the CIA was already on board, you might say.
And so what happened was that Nixon was not elected in November.
Kennedy was elected.
And so this operation had been set up, and the training and so forth that was underway had been set up under Nixon's directive to Howard Hughes, that had been handed down and so forth, continued on without JFK and his brother knowing about it.
It was about a year into their administration that they found out about these training camps that were still going on.
That had been set up under Nixon, under Nixon's original authority.
Now, the point here is that if going into the Democratic National Committee and finding that Cuban government report on Kennedy's assassination, if it had traced Nixon being the originator of what ultimately led to the Bay of Pigs debacle and the Cuban American animosity towards Nixon, towards.
Toward JFK.
That information could have changed the entire election in 1972.
Yeah.
That report, if it did exist, Nixon could be blamed publicly for not that he knew that Kennedy was going to be assassinated, but he started a chain of events that ultimately led to the assassination that involved, because of the Bay of Pigs, that involved all these Cuban Americans and so forth.
And so it was also vital to the CIA to know if that Cuban.
Government report existed there.
And so there's a book on this that explores this.
This is Lamar Waldron's book called Watergate The Hidden History.
Oh, yeah.
That goes into this, uh, into the secret, into this, uh, this, uh, desire on the part of Nixon and Helms to get that report that they thought it was a Democratic National Committee.
One quick thing here uh, why did they think that this document was there in the DNC?
Because Larry O'Brien was a former lobbyist for Howard Hughes in Washington, uh, and they felt that, uh, he may have got knowledge just being a lobbyist of what had gone on with May Hughes and Hughes and so forth.
Oh, that makes sense.
He could have used this in the campaign.
Yes.
But when Nixon became president then in 1968, remember how JFK approached trying to get his knowledge of the Majestic 12's research project into alien presence?
He did that sort of gradually by these memorandums, by these actions, and so forth.
But Nixon did it differently.
The day he inaugurated, he signed National Security Decision No. 2, in which he essentially cut out.
The Defense Department, the State Department, and the CIA from having major input into Vietnam and into the Cold War.
And instead, he consolidated this with his National Security Council, with Henry Kissinger, and with his two closest aides, Alden and Merlichman.
Oh, interesting.
Now, I read into this, to be honest, that he, based on what he knew as vice president under Eisenhower and what he had learned about the alien presence then, he was intent again.
To get knowledge.
In other words, so much progress had been made in the intervening years.
Who knows what we had found out about the alien presence and what their desires, what their intentions were, and so forth and so on.
It was important for the president to know what was going on, basically.
And the bottom line is I think that Nixon was set up through Watergate to fall because he was doing the same thing Kennedy was doing.
So he was trying to get control on this group that was handling the alien information.
He was pressing forward to find out about how the success of the Majestic 12 was in what it's doing with the alien presence.
He was pressing forward too hard to do that.
So, he also wanted to assert presidential power over this breakaway Majestic 12 group that was researching the alien presence and technology.
He wanted, like JFK wanted, to regain power over that program again.
He wanted, well, not necessarily the power, but the knowledge.
I mean, he may have just continued the program with the same group.
But he has a co equal, in other words.
There's no reason the President of the United States should not be aware of these activities, okay?
All right.
Now, this leads into another activity, which I want to discuss because we're getting close to the end here.
Okay.
I think it's important, and that is that vast sums of money have gone to be used by Justic 12 and its successors in dealing with the alien presence, vast sums of money, starting with World War II, when the gold that was recovered by the Japanese was seized and sort of disappeared.
Majestic 12 Group Control Struggle00:02:38
Right, and this is a fascinating line of inquiry.
When we come back for the final part of this historic episode, we'll find out if this breakaway group inside the national security state has been developing a secret space program totally hidden from the public.
Stay with us.
Dark Journalist Goes Deep.
My question is what are you seeing now?
What are the conditions like on the ground in real America?
The top guests you want to hear, like investigative reporter Linda Moulton Howe.
Audiences are getting it, they are bypassing.
The government suppression.
Financial expert Catherine Austin Fitz.
So there's a lot going on underneath the ground and a lot going on, you know, in the skies.
And whatever it is, it's very expensive.
Scholar Joseph P. Farrell.
If you don't consider the black budget, if you don't consider this hidden system of finance, then you're missing over half of the financial picture.
Historian Richard Dolan.
I hope listeners realize that this is not a run of the mill interview that I did.
Dark Journalist Goes Deep.
The most crucial topics the breakaway civilization, black budget, and covert warfare.
Hidden information, secret finance, UFOs, the alien reality, the best interviews, the real story.
Visit darkjournalist.com.
Sign up for our free newsletter to stay updated on the latest shows.
Support Dark Journalist by visiting our contribute page.
Help us deliver cutting-edge truth to you.
Join us on Facebook and Twitter.
Dark Journalist.
The truth is never easy.
We need dark journalists, so just keep doing what you're doing.
And we are back.
This is Dark Journalist, and I'm speaking with attorney Douglas Caddy, a real man of history, having walked through the destiny of our nation, and who is now stepping forward with some truly amazing revelations about a covert group inside the national security structure that has manipulated history and is seeking to dominate the future.
Now, Douglas, we were just getting started with some of the secret finance that this group has been using.
Where else can we see their fingerprints?
Okay, then you have the drug, the immense amount of money that comes out of the drug trade, much of which is being run by the CIA.
I mean, we went into Afghanistan because the Taliban had taken over Afghanistan.
Well, the Taliban was eradicating the poppy plants over there, right?
Right, and the heroin trade was going down and down.
Taliban Heroin Money Trail00:02:51
Yeah, they wanted to eradicate that.
And so we had to eradicate the Taliban.
And guess what?
Here it is years later, and the poppy plants, the poppy and the heroin is.
Flowing like it's never flowed out of Afghanistan.
Yeah.
So that's what it's all about.
And the money that comes from that is going in, much of the money of that is going into the fund that is being handled by the secret group.
Also, you have to wonder about all this money missing from the Federal Reserve.
Yes.
I mean, the Federal Reserve refuses to answer questions from members of Congress like Senator Sanders.
He questions where he has, he asked the head of the Federal Reserve where this specific amount of trillions of dollars went.
He said, and the head of the Federal Reserve said, I won't answer you.
Unbelievable.
They're not obligated to do it because they're not part of the government.
They're independent.
They're really a private bank, is what they are.
That's right.
Don't forget, just the day before 9 11, the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld, held a press conference and he said, I cannot account for $2.1 trillion that is missing from the Pentagon.
Yeah.
And the next day was 9 11 and that headline sort of disappeared.
Well, that's pretty good timing.
Last week, Reuters had an article.
Where they had, it was an investigative report in which they had spent months investigating missing funds from the Pentagon.
They included $8.5 trillion that's missing from the Pentagon, I think, in the last 15 years.
That is serious money.
Has not Catherine Austin Fitz given a figure of missing funds, something like in the $40 trillion amount?
Yes, her figure is $40 trillion missing from the federal budget.
There's two budgets the black budget and the super black budget.
The secret black budget.
The black budget is only like $90 billion.
That's authorized by Congress.
They say, take this money and go off and do what you're supposed to do.
We know you're using it for the right purposes.
But the other black, the super black budget, which is trillions of dollars, we have no idea how it's being handled.
And I just think after over 60 years now, since 1947 when this all started with Majestic 12 and so forth, it's now time for an accounting.
I think human nature being such, we have to question with all the The financial and monetary bubble that is underway in the world now, apartments in New York going for tens of millions of dollars.
I think there's fraud and embezzlement going on.
Catherine Austin Fitz thinks a lot of the money is going for the space program.
Is that right?
Yes, a secret space program with no public transparency.
And you know, on this show, we cover the black budget pretty closely.
And it reminds me of something I've heard you say, which is that you think that this whole question around the alien presence and the missing money is the most important issue facing society today.
That's exactly the bottom line.
Connecting The Dots Finally00:05:22
That's the most important issue.
Everything else dwindles in significance.
And so, if there's a takeaway from this interview today with me, and thank you so much for inviting me to this interview, for having this interview, it would be precisely that.
It would be precisely just what you articulated.
Well, Douglas, I thank you because some of the things you've revealed here for the first time are truly extraordinary and I think require a lot of courage.
My question is after all this time and the amazing historical events in your life that you've been a part of, why are you coming forward now with these startling revelations about your close friend?
E. Howard Hunt telling you to your face that JFK was killed because he planned to expose our most vital national secret, the alien presence.
Well, as I indicated earlier, I just did my memoir recently.
I did that once John Dean had done his book, which was published last year, The Nixon Defense.
In other words, my role in Watergate, I think it was an important role, but if you look at the books that were published, like Silent Coup is an excellent book by Lynn Cunardi.
Silent Coup.
It details how the military intelligence had infiltrated the Nixon White House and knew what was going on.
Right.
And how they had their agent there photographing the documents.
And how Woodward, Bob Woodward, actually was working, was a military intelligence agent assigned to the White House before he went to work for the Washington Post.
That is so unreal.
And Secret Agenda by Jim Hogan and so forth.
You know, none of those books dealt with my role.
My role has never been discussed, even though.
It could have changed the whole outcome of the case had Nixon known on July 19th that I was working just down the hall for John Dean and I had refused the hust money.
True.
Nobody ever wrote that up.
That was never covered.
And so I thought, now is the time for me to tell my story.
So I wrote my memoir, which you can read online Douglas Ketty Watergate Memoir.
That will take you to it on the education form.
And then I said, there's an additional story to be told.
I did not want to include this story about JFK, about the dinner with Howard Hunt in that memoir.
Because it was another major story.
I mean, I wanted that story to be told and I wanted this story to be told.
They're connected, but they're separate stories.
I see.
Would you also say that it dawned on you at some point that the ramifications of what Hunt shared with you about the JFK assassination were too important to leave off the record?
Well, yeah, absolutely.
This came about after I joined the assassination forum in 2006.
In other words, I started connecting the dots.
It took a long time to connect the dots.
It took that National Security Memorandum, Actual Memorandum 271.
I had never seen that before.
When you read that, suddenly you realize what JFK was up to.
Yes.
It takes things like that before the dots start getting connected.
And then, actually, programs on your show with Catherine Austin Fitz and Dr. Joseph Farrow and Richard Dolan and And Linda Mountain Hall, Howe.
Oh, absolutely, yes.
I'm not, I should say, I'm not holding myself out to be an expert on this subject.
Please, please, please believe that.
I'm not an expert.
I reached the decision in my own mind, okay?
But I refer anybody interested in pursuing this to go to your program and listen to these interviews with these people.
They've devoted their lives to the research.
I mean, they know the subject, they know it forwards and backwards, and they can expound on it and explain it much better than I can.
That's the bottom line.
Well, that's an amazing endorsement, and I really appreciate that.
Well, it's really true.
You're doing a great public service.
You really are.
Thank you.
More than a public service, you're doing the whole world.
You're doing humanity a public service, a humanity a public service.
And we thank you for doing that.
Well, I really appreciate that, Douglas.
And I admire your courage coming forward at this point in your career with these revelations.
Now, I know many people would have been happy to just accept the accolades for what they've already done.
But stepping forward on something as crucial as this is a bold action and lifts the veil on so much hidden history, like so many other occasions in your life, like the JFK assassination, like Watergate, like the Billy Celeste's testimony.
It's almost as if destiny had a hand in walking you through these historical points, and your revelations today about the alien presence may be the biggest yet.
So, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Well, I appreciate you inviting me to do this.
Thank you so much.
I'm glad this is all on the record now.
Thank you, Douglas, and I'll talk to you soon.
Thank you for joining me for this historic and groundbreaking episode JFK Killed Over Alien Presence with former Watergate attorney Douglas Caddy.
You can find more special reports, interviews, and documentaries at www.darkjournalist.com.
You can also subscribe to our YouTube channel for the latest videos.