Catherine Austin Fitts and Daniel Liszt dissect the "UFO Economy," linking a $100 trillion black budget to unexplained global hardware and potential off-world origins. They analyze how legislation like the 47 Act facilitates this breakaway civilization, contrasting stability through hidden capabilities with collapse theories while referencing Philip Corso's Roswell claims. The dialogue extends to ethical leadership dilemmas, the necessity of recovering stolen funds rather than punishing offenders, and warnings against corporate surveillance replacing government oversight, ultimately urging a return to transparency to reclaim freedom from manipulative power structures. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
Time
Text
Flying Hardware Scenarios00:15:24
Hi, this is Dark Journalist.
Today I'm speaking with Catherine Austin Fitz, the former Assistant Housing Secretary, financial expert, and publisher of the Solari Report.
Now, Catherine has an amazing track record of spotting trends and analyzing the deeper aspects of the economy.
Her innovative grasp of what she refers to as the breakaway civilization and its impact on our everyday lives can help us to navigate the shifting landscape of modern reality.
Now, for this special report, I've asked her to go into the darkest secret of the black budget UFO technology.
If you were looking for a cutting edge conversation, you found it.
Here we go.
Catherine Austin Fitz, The UFO Economy.
If you look hard enough, you know, here's the reality.
If we want to understand the economy, we have to answer and we have to ask and try and answer the question what in the world are the UFOs?
Because when you've got, you know, when you've got $100 trillion of hardware flying around the planet, that is pertinent to what's happening to the manufacturing base of the planet.
This is something we need to look at.
You know, we need to bring.
Transparency to the black budget.
We need to bring transparency to the UFO phenomena.
You know, I'm a little bit from the Winston Churchill school.
Tell the people.
Catherine, it's great to have you back.
Let's start off with this term you've been using, the breakaway economy.
Now, how does that relate to the covert financing of the UFO technology?
We did a lot of interviews last year with Joseph Farrell and a variety of people to really define the breakaway civilization.
You know, we've got an ongoing conversation.
Next week it's going to be Richard Dolan, but sort of an ongoing conversation of what is the breakaway civilization and what are the threads.
Right.
And in the wrap up, I tried to integrate those investment flows into a notion of the economy, where it's going, and why.
And I got a lot of questions for more detail.
You know, a lot of the people who are on the Solari report are very, you know, they're doctors, they're lawyers, they're investment advisors, they're financial managers.
There's a lot of money managers.
And so what they want is, let's break it down.
So I've decided to do a breakaway economy part one and part two to help them.
Integrate what we've been talking about on the breakaway civilization and integrate that into the day to day, you know, because I can drive through Dallas and kind of see, oh, yes, they're doing this.
And, you know, I can kind of see it as it's laid out in the day to day economy, but it's difficult for many people to do that to integrate it.
So we're going to try and help them integrate it a little bit more.
And of course, the challenge is we're all working with probabilities and likelihoods and conjecture, we're dealing with a lot of uncertainty.
It's not as like the breakaway civilization files 10Ks at the SEC and we can just read their annual report.
Oh, yeah, that would make life a lot easier.
Yeah, it would.
It would.
Now, Catherine, I've seen many financial experts come out and say that collapse was around the corner, but you resisted that and focused on what you call a slow burn.
Now, my question is how do you navigate the pitfalls of making predictions and end up getting it right?
Well, here's the I think.
I think we're in a world where we need to be very humble because there's no way we can predict what is going to happen.
There's no way we know.
If you go back and look at my original audio seminars, what I did was scenario design.
Because I was brought up for portfolio investment strategy, strategic planning to use scenario design.
Have you ever used scenario design to know how it works?
Tell us about it.
You get together and you emerge what you think the key variables are and what possible scenarios of the future are.
You know, this could happen or this could happen.
Because as an investor or as a management team, we want to be nimble.
We want to be able, you know, if things change, we want to be able to adapt and react quickly.
So we use scenario designs.
You come up with different scenarios of the future and you say, okay, well, anything's possible.
And I want to make sure, in particular, I want to make sure my subscribers and investors are successful, whatever the scenario is.
Yeah.
You know, and so I'm not.
Invested in a particular picture of the future, I'm invested in my scenarios being successful in whatever picture happens.
And the other thing is, I also believe we all need to embrace a notion of creating our world.
So, certain scenarios may be likely, but if they're not the scenarios that are the ones I would be most happy with, I have an obligation to manage my affairs in a way that contributes to a better scenario.
So, I think we all need to think of ourselves as people who have the power to invent the future.
Whether it's our own or the global peace.
I'll never forget, I had a wonderful friend in the 90s who came back.
She converted to Buddhism and she came back from the sort of ceremony and she looked very upset.
And I said, What's the matter?
And she said, They say I'm personally responsible for world peace.
How can I possibly accept responsibility for world peace?
But I think we all need to envision ourselves as having the ability to contribute to world peace.
So, anyway, so I have a notion of we're inventing the future, but we need to be able to rock and roll.
And so, what I did in the early years is I started to do scenario planning.
One scenario, of course, was the slow burn.
Many of my subscribers were concerned about collapse, so that was a scenario.
And what I discovered as we did that was, and I did portfolio strategy with a variety of different people, that there was a notion that the chances of collapse were much greater than I thought.
Now, if you drill down, I was just at a wonderful conference last October out in Arizona, and everyone was very much believing that the dollar was going to collapse or the economy was going to collapse.
And if you look at the difference between their assumptions and mine, what it came down to was what is the technology?
And the military and intelligence capability standing behind the dollar and standing behind the central management of the global economy.
And for a variety of reasons, I've spent a lot more time looking at the covert side of that world and dealing with the covert side of that world.
And that gives me a picture of an infrastructure that's far more capable of managing things than I think a lot of other financial commentators.
You know, believe.
So I think it really comes, you know, the difference between me and folks who believe in collapse is I have a lot more concern about the whole black budget world and what it can do.
You know, I would say the people who believe in collapse to a certain extent are more optimistic than I am.
I can see that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sure.
It's funny.
Some of my favorite financial commentators have said to me, well, you know, Why do you believe it's going to slow burn?
You can't possibly slow burn.
Why do you believe it's going to slow burn?
And I'll start to explain.
And they say, I don't want to talk about that.
That's too depressing and too upsetting.
If I go there, you know, it will destroy my ability to have faith and get up in the morning and what.
So I'll say, fine, you know.
And so there's a, you know, in the financial world, there's an ethic that you don't look at certain parts of the world, you don't look at certain parts of the balance sheet.
They don't want to go there.
You know, the reality is, I didn't want to go there either.
I got four striking screaming in the 90s.
So, against my will, I went there.
Now that I've been there, you know, I see a lot about the control methods that I think is pertinent to how the economy is managed.
So, suffice it to say, if you look hard enough, you know, here's the reality.
If we want to understand the economy, we have to answer and we have to ask and try and answer the question what in the world are the UFOs?
Because when you've got, you know, when you've got $100 trillion of hardware flying around the planet, that is pertinent to what's happening to the manufacturing base of the planet.
Well, that's definitely true.
Right, right.
Well, it's interesting that you say that because I made some notes after going over the most recent Solari reports and I wrote down the UFO economy question mark.
And so that's basically what we're talking about here, which is a UFO economy, right?
Well, it's.
Here's the thing, and I'm glad you brought this up because I know you've had Richard on, and again, Richard's going to be on the Solera report next week.
And that's Richard Dolan, the author of UFOs and the National Security State.
Security state.
Well, that's the best book in terms of describing the mechanisms put in place after World War II to create a far expanded infrastructure for what I call the black budget.
So you literally see the federal credit engineered in a way that can generate trillions and trillions of dollars for an infrastructure of private corporations and investors to control.
The most powerful technology in the world, and to try and figure out what that technology is, you know, is to go down a rabbit hole full of very squiggly information about, right?
You know, what is and is not true.
But, but suffice it to say, you know, that a tremendous amount of that money has gone into very high technology weaponry and certainly an investment in space and space travel.
Now, what the truth of it is, you know, there's nothing.
You start to go down to try and map out that world, and what you get is you just get the unanswered questions of the black budget.
But the reality is, if you look at our overt economy, the whole economy is being organized to maintain that secrecy and keep that funding going.
Okay, and we've reached the point where the planet is literally being harvested to feed that economy, whatever the truth of it is, whether it's to build the trillions of dollars of hardware that's flying around the planet or to.
To manage whatever the phenomena is.
And that's why I think it's so important to bring transparency to the question and bring transparency in a serious financial way.
Because when something is that important to government investment and government spending and then the management of the whole industrial economy, to me it's a material omission to not bring it into the conversation, even if it's very hard to get serious information about it.
But I would say the difference between most people.
Who in the financial realm who predict collapse and me is my analysis of the black budget and what you would describe as the UFO technology.
Oh, yeah, the UFO economy.
That's intriguing because you're tying in all the centralization that you talk about to space, a space program that's being developed with an incredible amount of public money, but it's not subject to any public oversight.
You know, we can't see what they're doing.
And so basically, we're out of the loop.
Right.
Although, in the last couple of years, the effort to interest the general population in space and space travel and investment in space has been explosive.
Sure.
So now it's quite the opposite.
There is an incredible effort to interest everyone in space.
But would that be more on the private side than the public side, Catherine?
NASA, the Obama administration in 2010, 2011, apparently has changed.
I don't understand the details of it, but it has really changed the policies so that a lot more can happen on a privatized basis.
And of course, you'll see all these different wranglings.
I cover them on the blog.
You know, how are we going to create property rights in space?
Who owns an asteroid?
How's all this going to work as a legal matter?
So that is unfolding before us.
But there is now, with that infrastructure in place, or, you know, the basic.
Sort of intention to do it in place, we're now seeing a lot more investment on the private side in space travel, space mining.
It started.
Now, I think it's very early and very fragile, but clearly the efforts, you know, if you look at the magazines I get and you read Wired Magazine and Popular Science and Popular Mechanics and the MIT Technology Review and even Fashion, you know, the big new Chanel watch is Moon Phase.
Yeah.
And think about it, you know, according to the sponsors, 200,000 people signed up.
To go to Mars last year, whereas in the first month or two of Obamacare, I think only 60,000 signed up.
Oh, that's interesting.
So apparently, a one way trip to Mars was more popular than Obamacare.
Right.
And who can blame them for that?
Now, you've mentioned the secret space program as a possible solution for where some of this missing money from the federal budget is going.
Do you think that the advanced technology is already having an impact on the economy?
Well, sometimes you wonder, one of the One of the reasons I got interested in the UFO phenomena was you know, imagine giving a laser gun to a Neanderthal man.
And some of the things we're watching going on in planet Earth look a little bit like that.
Right.
You know, a group of people who've gotten their hands on technology, which is, you know, not something that's grown organically from within their own culture, it just got transferred over and they're, you know, they're drunk with power from it.
Well, let's go into that a little bit.
Let's imagine a scenario where advanced technology came here and we somehow got our hands on it, reverse engineered it, like retired intelligence officer Philip Corso claimed in his book, Day After Roswell.
The Breakaway Economy Wall00:15:42
Although, when you read his book, there's a lot, you know, it's like there's a wall.
And he describes some things, but he doesn't go past that wall.
Uh huh.
So there's the censorship going on in that book.
You know, I don't.
I can't, you know, it's like everything else in this area.
I can't judge if it's true or not, but clearly there's a wall in the middle of that book.
Well, he was on the national security teams of Eisenhower and JFK, and he said that the study of recovered UFO technology was done through the Foreign Technology Office, where he was in charge of military research and development.
So who knows?
So at least he had credentials to back up his story.
But this Foreign Technology Office, that seems an interesting place to study this material because it was probably harder to track.
That way.
So we know he had worked on these high levels.
He was in these clandestine circles.
So if we accept that and these types of revelations, the scenario is this they have this advanced technology, they hide this advanced technology, and that is what the black budget is all about.
Is that where this conversation is heading as far as the breakaway economy, the UFO economy that you've been outlining here is concerned?
Yes, but key to that story is a moment in time when the government loses control of the most powerful technology.
They keep financing it, but they no longer control it because it has to be kept within private corporations, which are not subject to the same disclosure requirements of government.
So we have a moment in time when the most powerful military technology on the planet.
Becomes controlled by private corporations and managed by private corporations.
And that is a change in the governance system which is very significant.
Now, when do you think this took place, approximately?
Well, I think there's always been, you know, I think the governance structure on planet Earth has always been private, and the governments have been, if you will, fronts.
So I think, in one sense, it's always been that way, but you needed the governments to finance and own and control the military technology, unless, you know, as you want to posit, if there was stuff off planet.
But I think that happened when you passed.
That's the 47 Act and the 49 Act.
And once the money started to flow, pursuant to the 47 Act and the 49 Act, and those provisions plus the Exchange Stabilization Fund.
And when those came together with the funding of the CIA, you built the critical train tracks.
And then when Bush got control of the enforcement line, when he became vice president, you then added to that through executive order the ability for all of that money to flow to private corporations.
So you have.
The US federal credit mechanism with all of the overt military behind it financing what is an unended, open flow of cash flow for private technology development owned by private corporations.
Then in the 90s, you lever that with derivatives.
And now you're talking about money, which is so fantastic, it's hard for us to contemplate it.
But it's all privately managed and controlled.
Now, that feels like a scenario.
Now, you can use those milestones and just use a different scenario and say that the technology came from kind of Nazi development, for example, and that we re engineered the technology.
And you look at it from this point of view that the advanced technology was there and use the same milestones of the creation of those things.
So you could do it either way.
Right.
So if the major changes took place with the National Security Acts you mentioned, And then Bush took over the covert side in the 80s, and after that, we got derivatives.
Where are we now in this whole process?
They must know that they can't keep the technology a secret forever.
Well, I'm not sure they know that.
I mean, from what I can tell, they've kept a lot of technology very secret, and it's very secret today.
Uh huh.
You know, it's certainly not part of the mainstream understanding.
I can see that.
So, I.
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah.
So, things would go forward in the same way with this wall of secrecy around these technological advances.
They would continue to develop these things, and the gulf grows bigger with the breakaway civilization operating with different science, different medicine, different technology.
And then here we are going along as we're allowed to go along.
Right.
That's pretty much where you think we are.
You know, it's, I don't know.
We have a breakaway civilization.
They have shifted, you know, my estimate from 1990 on is they have shifted over $40 trillion out of North America, you know, out of the existing systems in North America into something else.
And that is, you know, you're talking about an amount of money on a scale which is enormous.
And the question is, you know, how much of that is designed for investment off planet and how much of that is designed to, you know, assert control of governance of the entire Earth versus how much is going to be used to re engineer North America's economy?
You know, I don't know.
It's unfolding.
We're watching it.
Clearly, I think there is an effort underway to re engineer North America's economy.
There has been a real effort to assert a global governance system through the G7 and G20.
You know, where that's that seems to be much more.
I think they're running into a lot more saltwater taffy on the ground than they were hoping to.
So I think that's, you know, they're kind of bogged in the mud globally and re engineering in North America.
But what their goal is, to me, very much depends on what are the phenomena they're dealing with.
And that's what we don't know.
What is the phenomena, you know, what is the UFO phenomena?
And are they trying to manage that or are they just?
You know, is that just their operations?
Well, based on your own research and reading, when you consider the thousands of UFO cases that have been reported, do you think the phenomenon is an off world intelligence?
Or, in your opinion, could it be we're looking at an advanced human civilization flying these things around and their technology is so ahead of us that we assume it must be alien in origin?
Well, I don't see how the.
The industrial infrastructure of the planet can produce that much hardware unless you want to posit there's another human civilization inside the middle of the planet.
So you have people posit all these theories of where that industrial infrastructure might be on the planet.
So to me, you come down to a production question.
How can you build and produce that much hardware with that technology without one of us seeing it or noticing it?
So I don't see a way mechanically you can produce that much stuff.
Without it being in the center of the earth or on the moon.
Now, the reality is you'll get these various people positing that the Nazis left and went to the moon or left and went to the middle of the earth.
I don't know.
So, you know, but I've spent my whole life where these topics are ones where if you try and consider them, you're treated with great derision, particularly if you're in the financial community.
And what I'm saying, having studied the economy and the impact of the black budget, is we got to look at it because I can't.
I can't, as a group of soccer mothers, get together, back Jane, you know, back Tony Soprano dealing drugs in their neighborhood because James Bond will come down on their head.
Because, you know, the harvesting of my household or my community is what's financing the black budget.
And so we've reached the point where we can't rebuild the economy without looking at the black budget and saying, what's this all about?
So, So, my pitch is not that I understand it.
My pitch is we got to talk about it.
And that's why I was so grateful for Richard Dolan's new book because I think it's the first book that I can give to someone who consumes mainstream news and doesn't want to know about this topic and say, look, read this.
You know, we need to deal with it.
Now, what's interesting is I live in the middle of the country, and what I've found is people on the ground are much more open to this conversation.
You know, it's the people who are on the payroll and are trying to be good.
That don't want to talk about it.
But on the ground, everybody's like, yeah, I'm ready to deal with this.
Well, I think it's important that you're talking about it because a lot of people who listen to you for advice or borrow a number of your original concepts, as we've seen many financial experts who adopt so much of the research that you do, for them, it may be an eye opening thing to think, hey, here's this woman who has her finger on the economic pulse with her analysis, and she's talking about this edgy issue and saying it's important.
And relating it to markets and political budget outlays and other related things like that, maybe I should be taking a serious look at this also.
Right.
You know, there was a story about Paul Hellier.
You're familiar with him, the former defense minister of Canada during the 1970s.
And he came out and said that he was completely convinced by reports that he was being given about UFOs during that time that there were off world intelligences visiting and that they had advanced technology.
So that is a pretty major disclosure, I'd say.
I mean, we've had some people of his ill come out before and say similar things, but he's had that high level experience.
So there is that.
You know, here's the funny thing.
I've always felt very lucky because when I first started to dig in and try and understand what was going on at a deeper level in the economy, particularly on the covert side, I had a tool that really made.
That really helped me navigate.
And that tool was that any operation is subject to the mathematics of time and money.
So I would be able to pick up a book and read it and say, This is bunk.
It's not true because the time and money didn't work.
And I'll never forget reading Gary Webb's Stark Alliance.
And I said, This is true because he has no experience in government bureaucracies and enforcement bureaucracies, not like I have.
And there's no way he could make this impeccable unless it was true.
It's true.
Now, the challenge I've always had when you talk about the UFO phenomena is it does not lend itself to the mathematics of this world.
So, the tool I have to know whether something makes sense or not, it doesn't work, which is why I always feel uncomfortable talking about it because I'm not on solid ground.
The other thing to know is that the amount of disinformation in this whole topic area is off the charts.
It's just off the charts.
And the danger that bad guys would use it and misuse it is also off the charts.
So you have someone like Carol Rosen who said, you know, Wernher von Braun said we were going to use this, you know, to basically promote more centralization, et cetera, et cetera.
So that's why we have to be very, very careful.
I think every time someone like Paul Hillier comes out, it gave me a lot of confidence because he's saying, Look, you know, he's saying the same thing, we have to deal with this.
And I never, you know, I never took that position until 9 11 happened.
And that's when I said, You know, if things are going to get this out of hand, you know, we need to talk about the black budget.
Because if you look at the official story, a lot of people fell into believing it because they did not understand what technology is available.
And that's when I said, Okay, we need to start.
You know, we need to have a broader understanding of the technology that's available.
Well, they definitely pulled the PSYOP of the century with that ridiculous story they put out over the top of that and got more mileage out of it than anything, let's face it.
But his interesting question, though, would be talking about the black budget now.
What's the main funding mechanism for that at this point?
What do you think it would be?
What do you think they could be using now to fund this gigantic enterprise?
Oh, well, it depends on whether it's one step or two step.
I think.
You know, I think the biggest supply of money is government spending and credit levered by a variety of different financial mechanisms.
You know, certainly there's, you know, and that includes insider trading and a variety of other manipulations.
But I think when you combine the federal budget with federal credit plus what you can do through the Exchange Stabilization Fund, I think that that's, you know, a pretty big source of cash flow.
Not to say, but, you know, If you've shifted out $40 trillion, and I'm just talking theoretically, you take $40 trillion, you put in an endowment, you know, at 5% return, that's 2% a year, Daniel.
Wow.
Right?
Yeah.
So that's enough to run a global government on a private basis.
So it could already be installed in that sense.
They could have already sort of created this endowment.
Right.
Because every now and again, you see these incredibly large transactions through these banks, and it's like, oh, $800 billion went through that bank.
We're still trying to figure out where it all came from.
Right.
Well, that's why you'll see state governments that have a serious deficit, and then suddenly they're fine, they're in surpluses.
What happened?
Where did it come from?
And you, huh?
So a lot of the different balances and rebalances within the system are very confusing.
Global Cash Flow Laundering00:06:33
And I suspect that our vision of How cash flows move and the internal controls is very different than reality at this point.
And, you know, that's if you look at so, if you take someone like Meredith Whitney who said, you know, 200 municipalities are going to go bankrupt, I think she was looking at the official train track.
She wasn't looking at how, you know, the hydraulic pump underneath the ground really works.
Okay.
So, you know, that was, you know, she was the municipal bond equivalent of the collapse.
Folks not realizing, oh, there's this other machinery here that can rebalance and adjust.
Oh, yeah, right.
And that's just something completely hidden from public view.
Right.
You know, one of the hardest things, one of the reasons I left Washington and started driving, I drive a lot of the travel I do within the country by car.
I just said, look, I've got to price out the economy bottom up.
So I would drive down the highway and I'd get off at the interstate.
I just, I'd start pricing it all out in my mind.
It was like I had a giant spreadsheet and I was just pricing the cash flows bottom up.
And what I realized this was right during the telecom bubble and the internet bubble.
What I realized is at that time, not now, most of the operations at an interstate, whether it was the motels or the restaurants, most of them were not financially economic.
In other words, without stock market fraud and money laundering, you couldn't explain.
It was really funny.
There was one restaurant operation.
I used to drive by it when I first moved down into the county where I live in, in Tennessee.
And every day I would drive by it and be empty every day of the year.
And finally, after a year, I saw a person eating in the front of the restaurant and I stopped the car and went in just to make sure it wasn't one of those Bolo dolls, you know?
I put a doll in the window.
And I would drive to Philadelphia up and back, and every one of them, there would be, you know, they're very common.
They would be empty, and I would go in and I would talk to the staff.
And I would, from talking to them, I could price out what their overhead was for a year.
So you had, you know, on the way up to Philadelphia and back, I would pass 25 of these things, and not one of them, you know, day, night, not one of them could be justified by fundamental economics.
Oh, that's interesting.
You know, there was not enough, they were not generating enough in sales to cover their basic variable cost at the installations.
With one exception, there was one up in, On Market Street in Philadelphia, that had a booming business for some reason.
And so, you know, what I realized was that, you know, that at the time between the stock market fraud and the money laundering, you know, you had a certain portion of the economy which was completely symbolic.
Anyway, but it was by driving around that I could start to finally figure out and understand what was going on in the economy.
And that's the spooky thing.
You know, fantastic access and really extraordinary amounts of money.
It's very, very difficult to figure out hard statistics on our current economy.
So, did you come to the conclusion that this establishment business chain was a money laundering front for the black budget?
I'm assuming that it was probably laundering money.
There's a great, have you ever read Black Money by Michael Thomas?
Yes, you recommended that one and Trading with the Enemy, and they're both great.
Bill Hamilton, who used to run Innslaw, who's litigated with the federal government over the theft of his software.
When I first called him to talk to him about Promise Software, he said, If you read Black Money by Michael Thomas, I said, No.
He said, Read it and call me back, and he hangs up.
And it's a primer in, you know, sort of beach reading fiction, but it's a primer in how the Promise Software worked.
And if you want to understand the history of, you know, complete NSA surveillance, you need to go back and study Promise Software and sort of the evolution.
It's very interesting.
But in the book, it takes, I think it was a pizza chain, and it explains how a retail restaurant can be used to launder vast amounts of money.
It's quite funny.
And the story is told in 1989 and kind of explains some of the Iran Contra fraud.
But, you know, it's a good primer to understand how some of that may work.
So I don't know what this particular restaurant chain was up to, but all I can tell you is if you were a small business running a restaurant trying to compete with, You know, it's very hard running a small restaurant based on real economics to compete with somebody who doesn't have to cover their overhead.
You know, that's a tough one.
Oh, right.
Yeah.
Well, that's really a great example of how we're in this era where nothing is exactly what it seems to be.
So some of our basic assumptions, you know, especially when it comes to the power structure on the planet, are just distorted in a number of ways.
And that's certainly something that comes up over and over again.
We all grew up with this sort of image of.
You know, leave it to beaver made the world seem simple, understandable, and nice.
You're a little young for Leave It to Beaver, but you know it.
And you know, but we all have this picture of, oh, you know, it's kind of, we understand it, it's okay.
And once you start to leave that picture and dig into all the kind of mysterious things that have been going on in this planet since the beginning of time, and you know, I think, I don't know, but, but in my life, I'll, I'll go for a certain period and then some completely inexplicable phenomena will happen.
Right.
And I'll decide, well, it just keeps getting weirder.
So, He's put this over in the category of weirdness I can't explain.
Well, it's refreshing, actually, to admit when you're not sure.
I can appreciate that.
I mean, aren't we surrounded by so called experts who tell us they know exactly what's happening all the time?
And when you check the record, though, they don't have a clue.
You know, like these economic predictions we were talking about earlier, it just doesn't hold up.
Unexplained Navy Invitations00:08:21
If you think you understand what's going on in this planet, you've got a serious problem.
Exactly.
Because I spend my life seeking out the people who really have tried to figure it out, and they will all tell you they don't know.
Now, I'm sure there's some insiders at the top who probably have it.
There's some folks at the CIA.
Did I ever tell you the story about the people who came to visit me from the CIA at Hamilton Securities?
Oh, yeah.
I want the full story on that.
This is really cool.
You have to go for it.
I've told this story before.
There's a group who were doing strategic planning at the CIA, and so one of them was very enthralled with what we're doing at Hamilton with the systems and Scenario planning.
And so he brought a group over, and one of them walked in and she was just gunning for me.
You know, you could just tell she was ready to hate me.
And I made my presentation about how I thought we could.
You know, it was all about how can you refinance a community with private equity, bringing in systems and create far more equity value and lower the cost of government, all this other stuff.
And she looked at me with disgust and she said, You know what your problem is?
I said, No.
And she said, You have no idea where evil comes from.
Wow.
And then she wouldn't, I said, Well, I'm ready to be educated.
And she wouldn't say more.
That's genuinely creepy.
So apparently, she and some of the folks at CIA know, but they're not talking.
You've dealt with this national security group who wanted to recruit you to observe the possibility of the UFO phenomenon.
They were associated with the Navy.
You've mentioned their unusual invitation, and I often wonder where that would have gone.
But can you go into that story of this group a little bit?
Well, what happened was I was approached by a group who said that they were doing a study for the Navy.
And would I help?
You know, it's a long story.
I'll make it short.
And I went, the undersecretary of the Navy came over to my lunch for brunch, my house for brunch with his wife, and we talked.
And then I went to a series of meetings at these different think tanks where There was a whole group of retired generals and admirals.
Everybody was very lovely.
And then I was right in the middle of the litigation, so I was pretty preoccupied elsewhere.
But this was in the late 90s.
And so finally, after a couple of meetings, I said, Look, I'm a very performance oriented person.
It's not clear to me what the goal of this is.
I don't want to just wander around and talk to generals.
You know, what are we trying to produce here?
What's the bottom line?
You know, I need to know what the executive summary says because I want to perform.
You know, if I'm going to be involved in this, it needs to be excellent.
So what's the.
You know, what's our goal here?
And he said, Well, the Navy wants to understand what it means to their operations when the American people understand that ET exists and lives among us.
And I said, We know, I don't know that.
I don't know that ET exists and lives among us.
And he said, Well, would you like to have lunch with some aliens?
And I swear to you, I had a picture of myself checking out at the grocery store.
And I'm looking at the National Enquirer in the rack.
And it says, Fitz thinks she's lunching with aliens.
And I thought to myself, Oh, this is where they're finally going to get me.
This is like a setup.
This is definitely a setup.
And I said, You know, I'm dealing with too much risk right now to be seen lunching with aliens.
So, are there some books I can read?
So, I read and read and read, and I couldn't make any sense of it because my tool of pricing out the operations and the money didn't work.
So, I just kind of threw up my hands.
So, then they asked me to join their board, and I went into the first board meeting, and it was really funny because the former head of the CIA was there, he was flipping up a pen, and I walked in, and there's like 10 guys sitting at the table.
And the lead guy is across, and he says, My middle name is Austin.
He says, Austin, welcome.
And the ex CIA guy flips his pen and he just looks at me, freaked out.
And that's when I said, Well, I think, you know, I know where part of my problem is.
So he recognized your name clearly.
Oh, no, he knew who I was.
Oh, yeah, okay.
So, you know, they never think what had happened, at least what I'd been told, was that I was going to be framed and there was nothing I could do.
I'd be in jail shortly.
Well, the frame.
didn't work, subsequent frames didn't work.
And then we were in the uncomfortable position where we had to sit at a boardroom and look at each other.
He was shocked.
You were just walking around at that point.
I guess.
I'll let him speak for himself.
So, anyway, but all I can tell you is it appeared to be an extremely uncomfortable.
Of course, I said to him, well, Jim, how are you?
It's so good to see you.
Anyway, so they were talking about whether or not they should do a white paper about ET existing and living among us.
And there's been various debates about what really happened at that meeting, but I won't bore you with it.
But anyway, I later got to the meeting.
Well, that's interesting, actually.
I know they tried to deny it, but there was no way to do it because you had the minutes from the meetings, right?
Well, I finally got so frustrated.
I said, look, I'm going to, you know, I just published the board meeting.
I just kept sending messages back.
If you keep pushing this, I'll publish the board meeting.
Now, in fairness to them, and, you know, my apology to them, you know, if you're on a board, you don't share information like that.
And I never would have, except.
We're talking about a secret which is being financed with extraordinary amounts of money by the American people and is putting people's lives at risk.
Particularly after 9 11, I said, okay, my moral obligation to keep my mouth shut is now not as painful as my moral obligation to warn people that something's going on and we need to discuss it.
Now, to this day, I've always told people when you're in a room and you're discussing a deep, dark secret, there's a powerful resonation in the room.
There was no powerful resonation in the room that day.
So, for all I know, they were setting me up.
I don't know.
Right.
I can't explain what happened.
But here's the takeaway is not to torture them because, again, I think they're reasonably.
There are a lot of good people stuck in the system, and there are good people trying to struggle in the system.
So, I don't want to make their life more difficult.
My message from the story is this is something we need to look at.
You know, we need to bring transparency to the black budget.
We need to bring transparency to the UFO phenomena.
You know, I'm a little bit from the Winston Churchill school, tell the people.
So, to me, whatever is going on, we need to tell the people because we need their help.
You know, it's interesting that you mentioned Churchill in World War II.
I think someone could definitely draw a parallel between, you know, the rise of Nazism in the 1930s and some of the centralization and surveillance that we see going on today.
Right.
You know, I think that is one of the tough things for people to wrap their head around, which is that this kind of thing could happen now.
I mean, whatever we're dealing with now, it's a Nazi.
You know, we are dealing with a Nazi phenomenon.
We are dealing with, it's what John Rappaport said, it's like concentration camps, but it's hotels.
You know, we are dealing with the Nazi model, whether it's coming from space or the Nazi, you know, I don't know where it's coming from.
But we are facing, I mean, let's face it, they called it the Department of Homeland Security.
That's right.
Is that subtle?
I don't think that's subtle.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and you've talked also about how they have integrated back in the day, of course, we know they integrated a lot of that Nazi.
intelligence apparatus and it sort of became part of the culture, you know, whether it's at NASA or the intelligence agency.
So there is that element that's in there anyway, as we know.
You know, so it's not only are they acting like that, but they actually have a lineage in a sense.
Supporting Unethical Leaders00:07:15
That's what I mean by that.
Well, here's the thing.
I look at it more deeply than that, you know, because if you, one of the reasons I wanted you to read Trading with the Enemy is, You know, there was a meta structure financing both sides.
So if you keep going upstairs, you go up to a, you know, it's kind of the, if you've ever seen Kubrick's movie Eyes Wide Shut.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
That's a great movie.
American are sort of reporting up to this eyes wide shut crowd.
Sure.
So I think that model of, you know, humans are expendable is coming from there.
Uh huh.
Right.
Yeah.
I see what you mean.
So, you're saying this, you know, when you talk about the Anglo American Alliance, they are, it's not so much that they are kind of the evil group that's repressing everything, it's that they're all in competition for this top spot, in a sense.
And the top spot is reporting back to some other group, apparently.
Well, actually, let me make it broader.
Because, you know, great questions, the answer, of course, is I don't know.
Right.
But what we have in the developed world is we have a whole world of people, a whole society.
That's living on a non sustainable basis and is perfectly happy for people outside the developed world to die so that they can continue to live on a non sustainable basis.
Okay, and that's not just our leadership, that is every one of us.
That's what the red button story was all about.
Okay, so the question we all have to ask ourselves is why are we behaving that way and how do we change the model so that we can all exist on this planet in a human way?
That is sustainable.
Okay?
Okay.
And now, if I was the leadership, you know, would I believe that there's a way to get from here to there?
And if I didn't believe there was a way to get from here to there, would I simply just depopulate?
Would I consider that to be the moral thing?
I don't understand.
I don't know the answers to the questions.
But the question we all have to ask is not is who is they and what are they doing?
The question we have to ask is how do all of us get to a sustainable model?
That's a global model because it's not going to work that some of us live richly and everybody else starves to death, which is what the average American was happy doing, right?
Yeah.
And of course, subsumed in that question is to live sustainably on this planet, we're going to have to introduce lots of new technology.
Now, how are we going to introduce that technology and do it in a way where we all behave?
You know, because we're talking about very powerful technology.
And I'll tell you one thing about the leadership they don't trust the average person on planet Earth to behave.
You know, there's a real cycle of disrespect and there's a real fear between the leadership and the average person.
So you might say that the kind of elite leadership don't think that it's possible to act ethically and win, in a sense, and thrive.
I don't think they think that.
I think they know that.
Uh huh.
I mean, here's the reality an ethical leader will never be supported by the crowd or has rarely been supported by the crowd because an ethical leader is going to have to stand against an unethical leader.
And if I'm an unethical leader and I have the power to kill and reward richly, I can almost always take out the ethical leader.
So if you're a leader and you don't want to die, You know, or be destroyed by the unethical, you've got to outwit the unethical.
Do you see what I mean?
You're in a prisoner's dilemma here.
Right.
So, the question for all of us is can we emerge a culture and a society where ethical leadership can truly be sustained?
You know, a very significant part, not all, but a very significant part of the population will always support the unethical leader for a relatively small amount of compensation, particularly if they believe the unethical leader can kill with impunity.
You know, a lot of this comes down to who can kill with impunity.
But I've been very surprised, not at the speed at which most people will sell out, but at the low price.
You know, I have to say that in my experience, the average person does not understand their own equity value and the equity value of their community.
Well, it seems like something that will be necessary if we're going to evolve the model of power in our world today.
It would be for people to become more and more aware of their individual value and less susceptible to manipulation by the power structure.
I think that's what you're saying.
And I really include the media in that too.
So at that point, the leadership may look at the public and say, hey, we really have to deal with them to stay in power.
Well, to me, if you want to read the most hopeful book about where real solutions lie, read Robert Axelrod's book, The Evolution of Cooperation.
Okay.
It's one of the most, it's a tiny little book.
He's an economist up at Michigan, absolutely brilliant guy.
But what he talks about is the power of the human race to shun somebody who's behaving in unethical ways if they can see it.
And that's why I keep coming back to transparency.
Transparency, you know, whatever we do, we need evolutionary solutions, we need, you know, we need lots of prototyping.
This is going to be a very organic process.
And that can only happen where you bring sufficient transparency for those things to start to happen.
So, what Axelrod talks about is the importance of being able to shun a dirty player, that the ethical player will always win where the crowd can see the dirty player and shun the dirty player.
If they can't see the dirty player, then the ethical player has a terrible handicap.
Yeah, that's an excellent point, actually.
It's really true that these CEOs and corporate honchos like to portray themselves as doing all this wonderful stuff for charity.
And they're not content to be seen as thugs and robber barons that they are.
It's so funny.
You steal the money, you invade people.
So you build a software tool that invades computers, gives the NSA a trapdoor, you make a huge amount of money, then you run around the world saying you're a philanthropist.
And I'm always saying to people, they say, What can I do to really help the world?
Stealing Money and Crime00:05:58
I said, You can go return the money that you stole from everybody.
Right.
You know, restore the harm.
You know, just return the money to the people you stole it from.
Oh, well, no, I can't do that.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Well, you often talk about how it's very important not just to talk about and rage on about all this money missing, but the idea of getting it back.
Right.
I think that's interesting because you don't hear very much about that.
Even informed people, they never think about getting it back.
Well, it's so funny because you see this has gone on for years.
You see these conversations where somebody says, you know, All the banks stole all the money in the housing bubble, and we need them to go to jail.
No, we know.
We need to get the money back.
And I always tell people crime that pays is crime that stays.
Get the money back.
Because if you don't get the money back, it's going to happen again because it worked.
Right?
And maybe they're sort of building up a new version of that bubble now, would you say?
Well, I think it's a little bit more complicated now.
We're nowhere near close to the bubble that could be engineered next.
You know, if you look at what's possible for the next bubble, oh, I think it's much bigger than where we are now.
But, um, yeah, well, yeah, this is intriguing.
Yeah, that's a much longer conversation.
I want to know, yeah, I know you're going to come back around on that one, so I'll wait, I'll wait till part two.
I definitely want to hear about the forces that are developing down the road.
Well, that's a much longer conversation, but no, there's a much There's a much bigger bubble potentially coming.
Hmm.
You know, one of the things I wanted to ask you about is what kind of a year you see that we have coming up.
Now, we've already started off with some tension in the Ukraine and Russia.
How do you see the year playing out overall in terms of how people will fare economically and the world geopolitical situation?
It'll be, I think, you know, I think we're coming into a situation where a lot of the money that's been shifted can now be reinvested fairly safely.
But the pain of the change for the middle class that's disappearing is very significant.
That's got tremendous political pressures coming into the election.
And what's happening is the combination of a secret breakaway civilization and an official story that makes no sense really seems to be reaching a tipping point.
So we're coming into a shift.
And it'll be very interesting to see what happens.
Well, I can see that this is a very important and crucial point in time for just about everyone.
Just keep telling people the truth.
Yes.
You know, we need dark journalists, so just keep doing what you're doing.
Okay, yeah, I will.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a deal.
So far, so good.
Yeah.
Oh, thank you.
Well, one of the inspiring things that you're doing right now is going after this very complex issue of UFOs.
And I know you've grappled with so many other complex issues from.
You know, budget fraud to entrainment technology and mind control and things like that.
So, your work to sort out the mystery of this advanced technology will be instrumental to solve it.
You know, this is an area where my tool, which is economy, doesn't work.
And it works to describe what's going on on planet Earth, but it doesn't describe that phenomena.
So, I don't think I'm ever, or I don't feel confident that I can sort it out.
But I do feel that I can find enough people.
Who can help me sort it out, you know, and they can sort it out for the Soleri network.
So that's what I'm.
Right.
I hear what you're saying.
It's almost like you're creating a kind of original think tank or a brain trust around the issue.
And that way you can use the collective information.
Well, I would say a risk manager.
You know, I don't have to come back to money.
If it doesn't create more equity, it's not worth doing.
I can see that.
So I'm interested, you know, I'm not an academic.
I, you know, my beat is money.
So I'm interested in how Richard and other people's work can help my subscribers, you know, protect their assets, grow their assets.
That's what I'm interested in.
Right.
You're getting that information and getting it to the subscribers so that they understand the phenomena and learn to deal with it in a serious manner as opposed to this kind of glaze that the media has put over it so that no one will ever question it.
What I, you know, what I want them to understand is what does it mean to when they get up.
On Monday morning, whether it's the business they're building or the school that they're going to or the education they're getting, how does it relate to their investment of time and money over the next week?
All right.
Okay, so I'll give you a stupid little example.
If you look at the discussions I've been having with Dolan and Farrell on the Solari report, it says no, no, the 3D thing is not just a fashion.
You know, it's not just a blip, it's something serious.
You need to learn it, and here's why.
You know, so there are thousands of those.
Once you get into all the UFOs issues, there are thousands of little practical implications it has for your day to day life.
Or, you know, my son is watching this crazy movie, They Live.
Global Spraying and Slavery00:07:39
You know, I shouldn't be bothered.
No, you should be bothered.
You want to watch that?
Well, that movie is loaded with hidden meaning.
It's a total classic.
Now, I know it's on the Solari list, and I've seen it so many times now.
Because it's so interesting how they work this deep message inside of a kind of a sci fi format.
And all along, you start questioning who was really running the planet and the layers of symbolism in that with the economic crisis and the police state guys and all that.
Oh, that's right.
That's right.
Well, you know, if you look at what's happening in the economy, you know, one of the things that's doing the most harm to the economy is you're doing terrible harm to people.
You're harming them physically, you're harming them psychologically.
I mean, you're.
Whether it's the food supply, the fluoride in the water, the vaccines, everything, you're doing thousands and thousands of things that are harming the people.
And the way you build a great economy is one human being at a time.
So if the people are not healthy and strong and thinking clearly with good skills and education, they're not going to be productive.
So how can we possibly be building the economy if we're systematically doing things that destroy the humans?
Well, that's definitely true.
So, this economy definitely has a big they live problem.
Yeah.
So, it is that kind of environment.
The things that we take for granted as being good for us are actually very hazardous.
Of course, the food is a major one on that, especially with the GMO engineering, as we know.
We didn't even get into the Fukushima nuclear meltdown and its impact yet.
You know, I keep trying to figure out what's true and not true about Fukushima, and I don't feel that I just.
I have a new book waiting for me in the den on Fukushima.
I keep trying to track it.
But it's one of those situations which is pretty hard to figure out what the truth is.
And a lot of these things you can kind of figure, well, within 80 or 90%, I know what's going on and what's true.
This is one which is really tricky.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It seems just the sheer amount of this water that they dump is enough to cause a hazard.
So we already know that there's.
A pretty major problem just based on that, I would think, as far as the ecosystem is concerned.
Well, here's what we're facing, and it's much bigger than Fukushima.
We're facing an environmental pollution challenge, which is just going to keep growing, growing, growing.
And to me, it just keeps getting worse and worse, which brings us back to the question of what is global spraying?
Yes.
Part of the environmental pollution is we have a global spraying program.
What is it?
What's it doing?
Why are we doing it?
And the odds are they're not doing it for a good reason, right?
Well, but here's the thing I don't know that.
Yeah.
I guess I have a hard time.
I don't know what's happening, but the one thing I will say is having worked with a lot of leadership, I cannot explain what's happening on the theory that the leadership are bad people or unfeeling people or uncaring people.
Now, that doesn't mean.
I agree with them about everything.
That doesn't mean I like them.
I mean, make no mistake about it, the number one most profitable business on this planet is slavery.
So, we're talking about people who historically have practiced slavery.
Right.
So, I'm not telling you that I love the leadership, but what I am telling you is I don't see the leadership as being, you know, better or worse than the general population in my personal experience.
That's all I can tell you.
So, um, I can't explain the world by the leadership being bad.
So then the question comes down to why are they doing what they're doing?
Why are they behaving what they're behaving?
What are they grappling with?
So, why are they doing the global spraying?
Now, I can come up with a lot of theories that say it's horrible and a lot of theories that say it's good, but I don't know.
And the only reason why I'm very disciplined about this is I think if you want to get to the truth, you have to be very disciplined about saying, I don't know.
And I get back to the scenarios, which is, you know, so I'm saying this year 80% chance slow burn, you know, but there is some percentage chance it could collapse.
It's the same with the global spraying, you know, it could be a global program to depopulate, or it could be a global program to protect us from, you know, climate change.
I don't know what it is.
I can't figure it out.
But you have an unusually good antenna for these things.
Would you?
Say that.
I mean, you do seem to get almost a sense as well as data that helps you kind of formulate, you know, you could almost call it like intuition in that sense.
Well, the global spring, from what I can tell, is happening in almost every place globally.
So we have a secret project that is costing hundreds of billions of dollars that is being implemented across literally every sovereign government in the world.
Now that's real power, right?
Yes, that's real power, right?
So, every sovereign government in the world has agreed to go along with this.
Why, right?
What's the reason behind that?
That's an excellent question, right?
So, that's kind of where we are on that, really, which is trying to answer that question, right?
But you know, my intuition is that this is a You know, there are only two ways you can do something like that, and that is everyone concurs that it's important to do, and that's enormous consensus.
Everyone concurs to keep it secret, that's enormous consensus, or everyone has no choice.
Hmm.
You know, someone has a Death Star.
Yeah.
So someone has a humanitarian goal which is inspiring everybody, or someone has a Death Star.
Those are the two possible explanations.
I don't know which it is.
But you're leaning towards Death Star, I can tell.
No, you know, here's the thing I am, you know, I don't know how to explain it.
I'm a person who has lived through, I don't know how to describe it.
You know, the only way that you can gain the knowledge that I've been blessed with gaining.
It is to live through millions and millions of circumstances which are deeply weird, deeply frustrating, deeply dangerous, deeply painful.
And the reality is, you have to just keep going.
You have to be open to saying, I don't understand yet.
Destiny Among the Stars00:04:03
I don't know.
Because what is happening is so, you're in a puzzle palace.
You're walking around in a puzzle palace in the dark and you're trying.
You know, you're an ant and you're trying to conceptualize the galaxy.
Okay, so you have to have an infinite capacity to say, I don't know, I can know, you know, I'm just going to keep adding information.
And I think what I've discovered is that there are not that many people who practice that methodology.
You know, we want certainty, we hunger for logical answers, and so we leap and say, Oh, well, it must be this, but we don't know.
Yeah.
Well, one of your great quotes that I've heard a few times come up in the context where you were discussing these mysteries that we're facing, especially around a secret space program and how our future is about the stars.
And you said, we need to leave mice land.
Right.
And that really struck me as exactly right because somehow we have to lift our awareness up and find out the real story of what's going on here.
This is terrible to say.
At one point, I used to have these debates.
I was always the one at the table arguing that we have to do the thing that's right by people.
And there was one guy who used to say, he says, the mice will never thank you.
The mice will never be nice to you.
The mice will never stop trying to do right by the mice because the mice will never do right by you.
And it used to really irritate me.
And then when I started to sort of live and travel in the general population, One of the things I discovered was that there was no understanding of how the leadership worked, how the governance system worked, how the money worked.
You know, that there was an enormous gap between the general population's understanding of how the machinery works and how the machinery really works.
And, you know, there's a tendency to look at things in the world that you travel with.
So if you're down in a small community dealing with the budget at the fire station, then you're looking at the world from that point of view.
You're not looking at the world from the point of view of having to.
You know, manage all the federal credit on the planet, blah, blah, blah.
You know, and so I've always wanted to be a person who could look at it from both points of view and go back and forth.
But, you know, what I discovered was with the general dumbing down and what's been happening on TV and sort of in entertainment, you really are developing this culture of people who think very, very short term and very, very small.
So there's a group of us who refer to it as my sling.
Yeah.
We have to get out of Miceland because if each one of us is going to take responsibility for world peace, you know, we're going to have to leave Miceland.
We're going to have to look at it from the other guy's point of view.
And we're going to have to think a little bit longer term than just, you know, what's in it for me today.
There's one of my favorite preachers who has this great sermon where she says, Everybody gets up in America and says, starts wandering around all day long saying, What about me?
What about me?
What about me?
Oh, that's definitely true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we're going to have to, one way or the other, we're leaving Mice Land.
It's painful, but it's happening.
So you can leave behind.
And it was, what you were quoting was you're quoting Robert Dean, who I just love when he said, you know, it's the destiny of the children in my family to travel the stars.
I want them to have that destiny.
So I say the same thing.
I want the children in my family to have the destiny of traveling the stars.
Well, you have a lot in common with Dean in the sense that you brought this information forward that people wouldn't really get their hands on, you know, in a normal way.
Ingo Swann's Remote Viewing00:02:30
So he is really fascinating.
And what a great quote that is.
He's a very smart, courageous man.
Yeah.
Have you ever read Ingo Swan's very little but interesting penetration book?
Yes, excellent.
I love Swan.
I love Swan.
He's fascinating.
And he did a lot of work for those government groups.
On this kind of remote viewing aspect of the alien factor.
And what did you think of that?
Well, the remote viewing I found interesting.
Again, it's that whole area I don't understand.
The thing I love about Swan is he has a couple books on power, and Swan was someone who could see the invisible.
So the greatest powers on our planet are invisible, whether it's the power of the financial system, which is kind of invisible to most people.
But if you can posit a human morphogenic field, our knowledge is invisible, the money is invisible, the spiritual powers.
I think the most powerful.
Force at work on the planet is spiritual.
But all of that is invisible.
And Ingo Swann had this remarkable ability to see the invisible and to see how unimportant it was and to explain it in terms of its relationship to the material world.
And so he had an extraordinary spirit, extraordinary gift, extraordinary intellect.
So I always find him fascinating.
But on the remote.
He was very undercover, too, in a sense.
He didn't.
Put out the big best selling books.
He didn't do big tours and stuff like that.
He was really somebody you had to really search out to get.
And I always feel like those are the most important people somehow.
Well, because I think Ingo Swann understood that, you know, a lot of the knowledge that came to him came to him because he was a serious seeker and came to him because he was a serious person.
And I think, you know, it's tricky because there is a very thin line between entertainment and.
And trying to find the truth, you know, being a serious researcher.
And I think if you're going to get the benefits of receiving a lot of the information you receive, you've got to be careful.
You know, for some of us, we can't go too far into that entertainment space.
The NSA Control File00:08:55
Yeah.
So.
Well, we've had some real heroes like Ingo who've come out and sort of risked their comfortable existence to open our eyes and share some of their experience on the other side of that looking glass.
Right.
And I think one of the things that can, I think, really make people feel better is you know, it's on one hand, it's depressing, but on the other hand, it's very inspiring.
There have been so many wonderful people who have made an effort to tell the truth and do the right thing.
I mean, hundreds, thousands, and thousands, and thousands.
And it's hard for many people to fathom how many people have been stopped, harmed, killed, shut up, suppressed, censored, blah, You know, but there's so many, it's amazing how many people have all tried to do the right thing.
So, and it's once you understand the techniques that have been used to stop them, it's pretty heartwarming to realize that, you know, all around mice land aside, we can be pretty decent eggs.
There is a lot of natural leadership going on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's an excellent point, actually.
But you pointed out in the Solari report, you know, very well that you're always highlighting stories about those kinds of, you know, Sort of quiet heroes.
So that's really important.
The Solari Report is one of the greatest things out there.
I want to really congratulate you on it.
It's really nice.
Oh, thank you.
And the audio archives are fantastic.
I downloaded so many and I just kept going through them one at a time and I'd get around to it.
So I think I'm through 2012 now.
Well, it's really funny because whenever I do a different Solari Report, it's like different pieces of the jigsaw puzzle.
I say, okay.
You need to listen to this one for this, and this one for this, and this one for this, because you're talking about helping people build a new paradigm, a new framework for how the world works that's so different than what they had anticipated.
Yeah.
So, and to do that, they need to sort of fill in all these different pieces, but then they need to get comfortable for what it means in their day to day life.
It has to be useful in their day to day life.
And so, that's a whole level of complexity that, you know, most of us are not used to, you know, are not used to dealing with.
So, Anyway, so we plowed for the complexity.
Well, you've adopted this format of basically an audio briefing, and that's what it is, right?
You're briefing people the way that you would your business team and giving them the facts.
But you're also dealing with these incredibly edgy, kind of out of the box subjects that are somehow relevant to your subscribers' everyday lives.
So that's pretty unique, I think.
I recommend for people who get the Solari report to find that very interesting episode on mind control that you did.
Now, that's a great one, one of the best, I think.
It's certainly one of your more compelling presentations, I'd say, for sure.
Well, it's funny because I was talking with Richard about that.
You know, when I wanted to do one on mind control, I did it a long time ago, and I sort of looked at all the books and all the authors, and finally I said, No, I'm going to have to do one myself.
I'm just going to have to do a briefing and say, Read this, read this, read this.
So I go through the whole briefing on mind control, but Richard and I were talking about his new book, and this interview will go up next week.
And so we got to the chapter on abduction, and I said, Here's my problem.
I've never Read a report on that that couldn't be explained by mind control.
I'm not saying mind control explains it, but I couldn't, every one of them could be argued as a mind control story.
And so that's when I said to everybody, okay, you got to go into the archives and pull this one on mind control.
The reality is when you get to what I call control files, and mind control is a subset of control files, I'll never forget when I first started to.
You know, to sort of talk broadly and talk on radio, people would say, Oh, we have to go talk to our congressman.
And I thought, Well, you know, you can lobby your congressman all day long, but he's got to do whatever the guy who, you know, has his control file tells him to do.
Exactly.
You know, and people couldn't understand that.
They couldn't understand the concept of turning somebody into a puppet or a slave with a control file, let alone with mind control.
You know, that was a whole new.
Now, can you just briefly describe what a control file is?
Sure, everybody knows J. Edgar Hoover and his dirty pictures.
So it was rumored that Hoover had files on people and he had pictures in them.
And of course, this is the power of the NSA surveillance technology because now you can build high speed, low cost control files on everybody.
Right.
So we see them cheating on their spouses, doing drugs, whatever it happens to be.
Whatever it is that you don't want other people to know, whatever secrets you may have.
Teenage hookers.
You know, who knows?
Right.
Anyway, but a control file is basically the J. Edgar Hoover file with dirty pictures.
And the reality is, once you get a control file on people, you know, they have to do whatever you say.
So it's a very efficient, you know, personnel mechanism if you're running the breakaway civilization.
Because the question is, how do you get all these people to do things which are illegal?
And what's always amazed me is how easy it is to get a control file on a person.
And once you've got it, how easy it is to get them to do all sorts of things that, Their own families can't fathom that they would ever do.
I can see that.
So, to me, the whole thing, and I did a lot of stories last year about how the NSA has replaced the Vatican as the ultimate control file generating system.
Because the storefront church and the confessional can no longer outcompete ATT and NSA teamed up together.
Yeah, yeah, unbelievable.
And you've talked about the dangers of turning all of the NSA activity over to these corporations and letting them hold the data.
That's just as dangerous as them having it in the first place.
As a legal matter, a government agency has an obligation to the American laws and people and disclosure requirements and a financial dependency.
You know, Congress still counts for something.
And when you pull the NSA out and you put in private players who don't begin to have the same legal commitments and obligations, you get a whole different, you know, you're talking about a privately owned and controlled police state.
And that's pretty scary.
Yeah, right.
That's really zero accountability.
Right.
So I'll take the NSA any day of the week.
Any day of the week.
Over the shadow corporate state.
Right.
Because I find, you know, if there are still people committed to the greater good in working in this country, you know, a lot of them, in my experience, are in the military.
So.
So, I would rather hang my hat with them than with some of the private companies, their incentive systems and the strictures on them are in a very different place.
So, really, I really don't want an invasive surveillance system being run by Enron.
I really don't.
Oh, God, what a horror show that would be!
We remember those guys.
I'm going to say it this way, Daniel, what a horror show that was.
Yes.
Not Will, was.
Right, right.
Excellent point.
Right, right.
Well, since we're on this topic, can you give me your impressions of Edward Snowden and some of his revelations?
Well, I don't know who facilitated Snowden happening and what their goal is.
You know, on one hand, all transparency is good, so I'm glad it happened.
On the other hand, you know, this doesn't necessarily get us to a better place, so we'll just have to see.
I think that, you know, certainly we've had quite a global education on the dangers presented by this kind of technology.
Hacked Cars and Purpose00:03:03
And, you know, it may take us a century or more.
There's a wonderful book called The Master Switch that talks about how we.
Introduce new information technology for a brief period.
There's a renaissance where everybody loves it, starts to use it, and then it gets consolidated in for a tighter control, and it keeps happening.
And we keep using it ultimately to centralize.
So, renaissance, more centralization.
And I think the question as a society can we evolve as a culture to the point where we can have this kind of powerful technology?
Entice everybody on it and then use it for a whole new form of invasive warfare.
You know, if you look at what every business in America now spends on just keeping junk mail and spam out, it's very frustrating.
Oh, unbelievable.
Right.
So, our culture cannot yet handle the tools.
Now, how are we going to get there?
If they think they're going to put all of our cars, if they're going to make our cars self driving, and we all drive around on the internet while the Russian mob can hack in and run us off the road, I mean, how is this supposed to work?
Good point.
Excellent point.
Yeah.
Well, you've brought up the dangers of all the driverless car stuff and how that can put us all at risk.
So it's more like a control grid than a convenience grid.
It was really funny because I used to have, when the litigation started, I had a black Corvette named Fred.
And at one point, seriously, I was driving, it was right at the beginning when the physical surveillance was really bad.
And I was driving, believe it or not, past Quantico in Virginia.
And I got double teamed by a truck and a car trying to pincer me and run me off the road.
Unbelievable.
Yeah, no, they were a team.
And luckily, you know, I mean, at the time, Fred could do zero to 60 and 5.8.
What was it, 3.4?
I don't know.
He was very fast.
So I was lucky because I saw it coming and I, you know, I got out.
I'm a very, you know, I'm used to, I used to race cars.
So, you know, it was not a problem.
But if they could have hacked into the computer and hacked my car, I'm sure I, you know, I can't imagine what could have happened.
Yeah.
That's a fantastic point, actually.
So it might be time to become a classic car connoisseur.
Oh, I know a whole bunch of people who have old, old cars with no chips in it just for that reason.
They're scared.
I can see why.
Well, that is a terrifying story of being run off the road like that.
I don't think you've told me that one before, but you've been through a few close calls like that and somehow lived to tell about it.
It's really amazing.
You know, something I just find it miraculous that I'm alive.
No, but I will tell you, I've had the most miraculous experiences.
And I really do believe that there's such a thing as spiritual protection.
Free Will on Earth00:02:38
And while we serve our purpose, we enjoy it.
And when it's time to go, we go.
Oh, yeah.
I've made friends with death.
Yeah, I can see that.
Well, you're spreading all this incredible information to people.
And giving them a knowledge base to improve their lives.
So, as far as fulfilling your purpose, you're certainly doing that quite well.
Well, I just, you know, I don't want to live.
This gets back to my old thing of the Popsicle Index.
Yeah.
You know, I don't want to live on a planet which is this inhumane.
And so, I want to do everything I can to contribute to it converting to a humane.
You know, place.
I really do.
I'm a Christian and I really believe that it is our obligation to bring heaven to earth and it can be done.
We're just trying to figure out how to do it.
And, you know, I think whatever's going on on planet earth, we have free will.
And we have to decide do we want to be free or not?
You know, it's really funny.
There's a someone told me when I was in the worst part of the whole process of the litigation that, um, There's a game where you write down all your possessions, each possession on a piece of paper, and then you go through this large mansion, and in every room, you have to give up a piece of paper.
And so you come down to the last room and you've got two pieces of paper, and that's how you decide what's most important in this world.
And I feel like I went through a process where I came down to my life or my freedom.
And I said, you know, I'll take freedom.
And it's very interesting because when that first happened to me, I was sure I was dead, I was sure there was no chance.
But what's interesting is when you make those choices, suddenly something shifts.
And the universe starts helping you.
It's quite remarkable.
You know, we have to.
So I really, whatever it is, it's encoded in the software that we have free will.
We have to make those choices.
But we're all going to have to decide which is more important our life or our freedom.
And it's going to, for each one of us, I think it's going to come down to that.
Well, that is challenging for sure.
For me, it's freedom.
Oh, I can see that.
Actually, at some point, it will probably come down to that for every one of us.
Testing for Freedom00:00:43
Right.
We're all going to be tested.
Nobody gets out alive.
Well, that either sounds like the doors or the Bible.
I can't figure out which one, but it's good.
No, actually, it's the old New Hampshire license plate live free or die.
Oh, right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Right.
Words to live by.
Thank you for joining me for this fascinating overview on the UFO economy with Catherine Austin Fitz.
You can find more special reports and interviews at youtube.com forward slash dark journalist.